DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Oct-Dec98) Return to Archives Page
02/28	Good day Ab, I was wondering who were the winners of the Hot Engine Contest.  I didn't see the results posted at your site. Please direct me. Thanks. Jensen.   See my post on 02/10. Ab
02/28	Good job Ab!  To Mr.   Rurik's comments, not all of us have worked exclusively in fire, why, in 15 years I have done timber, recreation, wildlife and law enforcement just to name a few..  I am a fireman, first and foremost. I talk to others in the fire service and they respect us. Now you may be a resource manager, I respect you for that, you are a specialist as we are in our field, nothing wrong with that.  The difference between you and us is that your job title reflects your position, whether you are a forester or any other kind of ologist for that matter. I work full time in fire, my job title should reflect that.  We have come a long way with the upgrades, special acts for 462  series etc..  the next step is inevitable.. a wildland firefighter series.. doesnt mean we wont still go dig your wells, count your squirrels,   sling paint at trees, ticket people who steal pine cones....  we just want some respect..from our own agency to start........  peace, Sting
02/28	To Madhatter and Groundpig  Your unsuccessful attempt to upbraid me only highlights the validity of  my point.  Real professionals don't bad mouth other agencies or  disciplines.  Changing series won't make anyone a professional.  It has  to start first within yourself and your attitude towards others.  The  FWFSA won't make you a professional anymore than the Teamsters Union  'professionalized' beer deliverymen.  They may help with benefits and  pay but if that is your only concern then your standards are far too  low.  There is a widely held belief in many FS upper management that  fire is only for the uneducated and unskilled.  If you want that  perception to change the first steps are up to you.          Start with treating other agencies and cooperators with professional  respect.  Realize that they are different because they have different  mandates and missions.  When anyone disparages CDF or local FD's correct  them on the spot.  Set the standard for others to follow, don't lower  yourself to the level of the crowd.  Join the Society of American Foresters (www.safnet.org) and join the  fire management (or other) working group.  Keep the field viewpoint  present.  Accept other disciplines in the FS as peers and partners in land  management.  Foresters, wildlife biologists, and hydrologists are all as  important as firefighters in the agency mission.  Support them in their  endeavors and you will receive support in return.          Become a professional yourself first and agency recognition will  follow.  Rurik
02/27	Hate to brag, but I put that list together.  (See below. . .Ab).  I first read the article  while on a fire assignment in Montana.  A contract driver had the  magazine in his pickup, and I copied the information down.  Upon return  I typed it up in the ol' DG system and mailed it around.  Rurik
02/26	FIREFIGHTING FATALITIES BY FIRE AGENCIES  FIRE DEPT/AGENCY # OF DEATHS FIRST/LAST  AVG/YEAR NEW YORK CITY 755 1865/1994  5.8 CHICAGO 478 1865/1989 3.8 PHILADELPHIA 343 1791/1994 1.7 U.S. FOREST SERVICE 265 1910/1994 3.1 DETROIT 182 1867/1992 1.4 SAN FRANCISCO 141 1851/1993 1.0 BALTIMORE 138 1866/1991  1.1 MILWAUKEE 99 1884/1992 0.9 KANSAS CITY, MO.   92 1889/1994 0.9 FROM THE JULY, 1994 ISSUE OF VFW MAGAZINE.  Dave  Sumone wuz looking for this kinda information, thanks again Dave.  Ab
02/26	Here something else that may be interesting, supposedly this piece is very well done. I'll be watching!!  On Sunday, February 28 at 8:00 PM (EST and PST), The Discovery TV will air a fire feature called "Firestorm: A Smokejumper's Tale."  Although smokejumpers are featured the documentary delves into many areas; fire behavior,fire weather, ecology, fuels, resources such as IHC's, engines, helicopters.  It also ties to events as recent as 1998 Florida Fires, the Dome Fire, Bandolier and Los Alamos,  and includes news footage of Yellowstone, Mann Gulch, and Storm King.  Reseach and Science are covered, as well as the Fire Lab in Missoula.  The South Canyon segment is respectively and tastefully done. A multitude of agencies and cooperators are included in this independent production.  The program will repeat at midnight the same day / the company has promised to send NIFC copies of the video, and we will have access to footage.  Also note:  On 2/24 Dateline NBC will air a five minute piece tiered to the  above program.  Dave  Thanks Dave!  Although I still like my old idea of following a first year engine crewmember around for a summer and watching them initial attack their first hot fire, I'll be watching this program too.  Ab
02/26	Mr Ruik,  You raise a valid scenario when you say the FS mission is Eco mgt.  and  fire is a integral part of that environment.  However, the point you are  missing, is without the expertise of the fire manager to apply fire and  manage the outcome such as fire effects, smoke mgt, public awareness, etc  the FS mission is nothing.  I ask, where does the fire manager gain the  experience to apply fire as a tool on the landscape...from years of  wildland firefighting.  Sorry pal, can't be learned from a book only.  Must  be a combination of classroom and applied field experience.  Additionally,  if you actually believe fire fighting/management is only a small portion of  the job, you need to get away from the computer screen and the air  conditioned office you hang out in.  Todays fire fighter, and I mean in  green trucks, have currency requirements, constant training to stay with  ever changing NFPA, OSHA, Hazmat and Medical policies that the FS has to  abide by.  Fires wild side is as complex as fires ecological side.  We have  to be ready for them both.  Nice try Ruik, now go back indoors and write a  memo.  Groundpig.
02/24	The other day we went through the files and made a list of the people who will   still be here in 5 years.  It looked like a pretty good crew to me. Every   generation thinks 'what will they do with out us?' well the outfit will just   keep on chugging along.  Fires will get worse but that's a fuel buildup thing,   not a 'I'm not there to put out the fires" thing. It's human nature to think   that the world won't be able to get along without you, but I'm sure the folks   who have already gone on to better things think that the tent would fold   without them. Cheer up fellow firefighters we all still have a few years left   and I'm guessing that this year is going to be a good one( if this darn snow   would melt)  I'll drink to that!  Ab.
02/24	I just found your web page, lots of good photo's.  This coming season will be  my 27th and in that time I have worked with a lot of different agencies. As I  read the comments I kept seeing what I hear over and over from the folks I  work with (State and Federal.)  I am not a Fed., work for a state agency out  west.  Just a few comments: Remember the only thing constant in this life is  change!  Of course the way we fight fire is different from when I (we) first  started, would I go back to sleeping on the ground under black plastic and  having ham for breakfast, lunch and dinner?  Do I want to give up foam and  light weight hose?  I don't think so.  The "good old days" are gone and today  will be the good old days for the young ones just starting out.  We have paid  our dues, the dues to be paid by the "newbies" will not be the same as what we  paid, but all the same - they will pay.  Do not dwell on how things were, we  will never be able to go back, look ahead try to adapt to the changes and do  the best with the shrinking budgets that we all are forced to work with.  Put  your 20 or 30 years in and walk away (if your knees will let you) Things  change and Shit happens.  Until next time, Keep the Wind at your back and stay  down hill of the fire.
02/24	I have asked for info on this page,and still waiting! I have much to learn with the idea that others would be glad to share their knowledge. Sometimes getting the right info is like pulling teeth! Since being from the east I dont have as many resources as you folks in the west.IM not on a hotshot crew,nor do I have any cool stores.IM just a groundpounder trying to educate myself and those serve.  thanksBC Gary Davis     WTFD    NJFFS  Sorry you were unhappy with any lack of response Gary.  You may need to reask your needs and also need to realize this isn't an automatic reference area.  I help when I can provide directions to Internet areas and spend many hours performing that service.  However, there are quite a few requests here for what would amount to major research projects.  If there is a lack of interest I can understand why.  Ab
02/24	This is in response to Rurik's comments,I have worked on a R-5  hotshot crew for the last four seasons and I consider myself as well  as every one I work with as firefighters.I think it is a crying shame  we are not classified as firefighters.The bit you said about "If you  want to be a firefighter go work for CDF or LA County" what the hell  do you think CDF is they are a small version of the Forest Service,I  have relatives who live in La and frankly they are not impressed with  LA County Fire Dept.Now I'm not shitting on anyone but take for  example the 96 season do you honestly think that LA or some other big  time Fire Dept. saw as much fire as us hotshots did I don't think  so.The bit about being "Professional" what do you think the FWFSA is  doing, they are trying to make us more noticeable and show every one  that we are professionals.I don't know anything about you Mr. Rurik  but we hotshot are very passionate about our jobs,we are Firefighters..  Madhatter
02/23	Your attitude is about 20 years behind the times.  If you want to be firefighter then go join L.A. City or CDF or some other  real fire dept.  As long as you work for the FS you are a resource  manager specializing in wildland fire management.  The keyword in that  last phrase is 'Resource Manager'.  Fire suppression is only a part of  your job, and a small part at that.  Fire is an integral part of  ecosystem management, and whether you particularly like it or not  ecosystem management is the current FS paradigm on National Forest  management.  Fire is a resource tool that can and will be used for  resource manipulation to benefit the owners of the public land ( U.S.  citizens).  This tool can also be misused or be destructive so it must  be used in a professional manner.   If you want to be treated as a professional then start acting like a  professional.  Start treating the other specialties in the Agency as  peers and partners in land management.  Your responsibility to your  employers -- the taxpayers -- is to become a team member and not an  elitist.  Rurik
02/22	Well Ab I'm sure you have heard this once or twice, but it is great to see a site dedicated to wildland firefighters. Now for a few things that piss me off. I've been a hotshot basically my whole career, except my first. I'm a captain on a R-5 shot crew. For those of you who don't like that term tough shit I've worked hard to get where I am. The fact that we are starting to loose some of the "old dogs" who are getting long in tooth, does not mean we are not going to be able to fight fires effectively. Granted some of thier wisdom and tactics will be missed, but if they are truely a top notch "quality" old dog, they will have passed this on to the next generation. I'm not saying there isn't weak tits out here, God knows we have bounced a few off our crew, but fellow dedicated grunts like myself have become students of fire and have become pretty damn good at what we do. It's abit of a slap in the face when we hear a few of the old dogs are leaving the coop, "well the shot community is going to go to hell now", when we have studied, watched, experienced and learned from the best of them.  There isn't much I haven't seen in my career but am always willing to learn something new. So to you "old dogs" don't be "old turds" pass it on. So when you are but a memory it will be one of a warrior and a teacher. Both noble indeed. If you or anyone wants to send comments to me in person I'm at dripptorch@yahoo.com  Thanks for the comments "driptorch".   I do receive positive comments regarding the page, it's what keeps me going!  Before I began this page I always thought there was a lack of a place wherein old, young, and in-between dogs could speak their minds without fear of retaliation.  While I try to keep my opinions to a minimum here, I DO try, I (and everyone else) here are free to speak their mind.  A couple of years ago I submitted an employee suggestion to have a kind of bulletin board area on the Forest Service computer system.  It didn't make it too far, my ex-Forest FMO was concerned of misuse, wasted time, and failed to see any value in it.  Now I see someone else has come up with the idea on the new IBM systems and everyone seems to be wetting their pants over such a novel idea.  I guess I was just a little ahead of my time, not the first time, and I warrant not the last. Regarding the natural progression of "old dogs", I've noticed a few hotshot sup's move into Bat Chief positions the last year or so with some very positive results.  The shot crews appear just as reliable and hardworking as in the past, and even better, the receiving Districts suppression progam is getting a "shot" in the arm.  Or should I say, sometimes, a kick in the ass!  Nothing like an ex-hotshot sup' turned BC to liven things up a little for some of those jaded old engine captains.  Bless those old Captain's hearts though, their average age on our Forest is 40+ years old.  Their average age when I began my career was about 22-25. Ab
02/21	I must have finally woken up!!! I thought nobody else in r-5 cared or even in  the Forest Service for that matter.  Let me express some of my history. I  started personally trying to get involved @ visiting getting us to be  reclassified into what should be the "Firefighter Series" in 1991. I sent out  letters to lobby all the people who cared in the region. All they had to do  was sign the letter and mail it to their congressman in support of pay  disparity issues, 24-hr work schedules, temporary benefits and the list goes  on. But you know what people are old and lazy and all they want to do is cry  in their beer all the time about the politics and how things won't ever  change!!! I work for this agency because I am proud of what I do & I want  "Change for the better" if you don't want to be a firefighter then get out of  fire and go into resources where you belong. It;s time to lead this agency in  the proper direction. Where it belongs in the forefront of all wildland  agencies. We need to leave the forestry tech. series behind and get  reclassified and formally recognized for what we are. I'ts time we show how  proffessional we are and sell that to the agency,public,cooperators and  washington. We should all support fwfsa forget nffe they are'nt a paid union  to lobby for our rights. even if fwfsa isn't up to date with info they support  us and if enough people get motivated to sent their $ to that union and tell  to march to washington an get us recognition all these foresters will be  forced to deal with the issue now!!! So the proofs in the pudding either we  lobby in numbers now or we whine for eternity!!! P.S. your page is a sigh of  relief keep up the good work. Sincerely Jeff Stevens
02/18	Re:  FWFSA web page.  A delayed response to "Tonka" on 1/27.  I don't wanna nitpick, because I am glad there is an organization fighting for us wildland firefighters, but what's the use of having a web site when it's so out of date?  I get a lot better news about what's going on here than checking on the FWFSA site.  Reminds me of a neighbor who brought home a nice new shiny car and within one  year it was all beatup and up on blocks alongside the house. Get some more help if ya need it.  An old fire dog once told me image is 90% of the job.  It doesn't matter if you make mistakes as long as you look good doing it.  How are you going to get new members from the web site  when it looks like it was abandoned last year.  Bear
02/18	Hi I am a member of the Navajo Scouts Reserve Fire Fighting Team and  I just want to say hello out there and I'm looking forward to working  with all of you this  summer.  richardm@wrusd8.k12.az.us  NAVAJO SCOUTS Greetings Richard.   Tell us more about teh NSRFFT.  Ab
02/17	I am looking for some basic wildland fire training in the south east (around  south carolina if possiable).  i am currently an urban firefighter.  FullArst@aol.com Check the training areas on the Links page.  Ab
02/17	Would you please add us to your links section-we are a wildland contractor  with a 10 year track record.  We have current employment opportunities in  addition to North Tree, Firestorm, and Ashkickers.  Thank you!  http://www.alpinewildfire.com
02/16	Im looking for information on drip lighters for fighting wildlandfires.  thankyou...... I'm guessing that would be a drip torch as we call 'em in these parts.  Here's a couple links.  Ab.  http://www.nationalfirefighter.com/burneqpt.html http://www.cascadefire.com/
02/16	A couple new Michigan Fire links, Ab.   http://www.angelfire.com/mi/foam/index.html  http://www.angelfire.com/mi/fire3300/dnr.html
02/12	A couple comments on the "good ol' days" thread.  I've been divorced twice and lost a long term live-in relationship they all blamed on my fear of missing just one fire.  I've a twenty-six year old daughter I scarcely know and am still not close with.  For 19 years I NEVER missed a day of work between May-November.  Taking a single day of annual leave would have been sacrilige!  I have enough happy memories of doing the job I know I was born to do to last me the rest of my life.   But somewhere, and I'm not sure exactly when, my passion for the fireline began to wane.  It had always been a  feeling I was sure would be with me forever.  I just remember waking up one day and just wasn't excited about going to work.  Somehow the issues of diversity and political correctness had become more important than fielding the best qualified employees for the job.  I spent more time counseling employees, completing and filing complaint/greivance forms, and conducting warm fuzzy meetings than I was training the crew to do the job their position description said they were hired to do.  When initial attacking fires I began to feel more like a babysitter than a Captain.  I spent more time worrying someone was going to get hurt or burned than I was focusing on the fire itself.  I remember a situation towards the end of my module leader days. . . I'd spent the last fifteen years observing and developing a strength and conditioning program that proved itself year after year.  Never a crewmember was lost due to an accident thta could be blamed on lack of conditioning or training, never had to pack one of my crew out of a canyon due to dehydration or fatigue.  My crews delighted in "bumping through" other crews on the hike to the top f the hill.  So, one fine Spring day the FMO summons me in and tells me a couple crewmember didn't like they way I conducted PT in the mornings, they weren't sure the program wa having a positive effect on them.  They didn't enjoy how the program was being run, and after all, one of them was a college student with physical therapy as a major.  A crew meeting was held with the FMO as an arbitrator and it was decided we would all take turns being in charge and conducting the daily PT program.  Enough, enough, now the crew was in charge.  The good news is both wives and the lover left me in the middle of a long hot summer ;-)  I didn't have time to miss 'em at the time, and turns out I never did!  A few yars ago I took a week of leave in July with my new wife and discovered the Forest was indeed still there upon my return (although there had been a 50 acre fire and the current FMO was a bit miffed I hadn't taken my pager with me).  I smiled at him and advised him I planned on keeping my newest wife and thought that sacrificing two of them was enough.  I wanted to ask him why his wives had left him but didn't want to push it too far.  Alas, I ramble.  Ramble
02/12	Hi, I'm a NYC Police Sgt and came across your website while searching for the Blaze screensaver. Thought you might be interested in adding the "Burn Baby Burn" screensaver to your list. Nice website!  http://www.nexusmedia.net/misc.html Thank you Sarge!  This will also be on the links page.  Ab
02/12	I, too, lament the good ol' days.  Some of the best fires was just me  and one other guy spending a couple of nights mopping up a single tree  way in the backcountry, with a little fishing getting accomplished on  the packout.  Also memorable was the camaraderie developed with the 19  other guys on the shot crew after a hellacious fire season.  Now it  seems everyone is interested only counting their OT on the way the  motel.  ( Not that motels are bad.  I am not as young as I used to be  and that ground gets harder and lumpier every year.)  I find myself getting weary of not having a life every summer and I am  now turning down as many assignments as I accept.  No regrets, just my  passions changing as life goes on.  Rurik
02/12	I've seen the name "Maddog"in the past and then mentioned lately......I work on    your old Forest and wonder where you have gone....??   .... brief us as to whats up.....You use to be good at it, even though you got a little cranky once in a while....PNF
02/10	Well. . . it looks like the Hot Engine Awards were a bust this year since I haven't received a single application as of this date.  Perhaps next year we'll try it again, maybe get the shots and helitack folks a chance at something.  Even the slowest engine out there had a good chance to win this year, considering the lack of entries.  I hope the amount of personal information I requested didn't scare anyone off, I just wanted to make sure we had a "real" hot engine instead of someone who sat at home sucking up the suds and making up stories.  Not that there's anything wrong with either past-time.  Guess I'll just take the TV video card and slip it into my work machine so's I don't miss any preseason football games this year!  Remember, as always, this site is open to any and all suggestions.  It's your site, I just pay the rent and get the satisfaction of kicking the commercial sites collective butts!.  Ab.
02/10	Found your site with a search and enjoyed the comments and photos. Been doing this job for 26 years and still humbled each season. I have worked as a engine crewmember, hotshot crewmember, helitack crewmember to helitack captain with the USFS. I hear the complaints from "rookies" every season about the lack of amenities connected to the job. All I can do is shake my head as they eat hot catered food under the lighted tent and think back to scooping something out of a O.D. green can that I opened with a P-38 found in the cardboard box and was very glad i had it. I guess my point is , some of our "new" employees don't seem to realize how good they have it......From a old dog in NZ  Always glad to hear from "old dogs"!  There's a few who hang out here and express themselves. . . I suspect quite a few more who hang, but have yet to say anything.  Ab
02/10	Looking for some nomex greens? In some bigger sizes.Is there anyone that  can help out?  Thank you .  E-Mail address backfiring@uswest.ne
02/06	Just found your site yesterday AM, had heard about it but hadn't seen  it.  GOOD WORK!  R5's Fire Work Environment Recruitment and Retention Subcommittee will  be building a WEB site soon & some lessons can certainly be taken from  yours.  Have to tell you I was real suprised when I looked at some of the  pictures you have and realized they came from my camera & laptop series,  like the Marre, Huevos and some others.  I was pretty suprised at 5am to  sit here looking at at pictures I took and  placed on disk, then came to  the realization how far a single pixel of information can travel.  Really enjoyed reading the "THEY SAID" section.  Enjoyed "Maddog's" perspective, always have, gald to hear all is well!  Want to echo "Graniteman" & "Maddog"  for you fed WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS.  While the wheels may turn slow, nothing ventured, nothing gained!  Also  hearty KUDO's to those on the Board and those providing support,  rememember, it's their personal time! Have you given any of yours  lately?  Join the FWFSA!  Bill Bowman, a highly respected & retired Chief (RD & FOREST FMO) used  to tell me, if you keep doing what your doing, you'll keep getting what  you got!  Also Bill was part of a key group that got us FF retirement in  spite of managment obstacles.  So you can sit back with George and have a burger and beer, or you can  do something.  Keep up the good work you are doing with this site, my pictures are your  pictures.  And to all of you who fight fire, Be Smart, Be Heads up & Be Safe! Torch
02/04	There was a request for more pc programs that deal with wildland issues. For my  2 cents if you go to www.fs.fed.us, hit the resource management button to the  fire systems and data button. Then hit fire management tools there is all kinds  of things in there, have fun !!  I know that this is a official guvmint  homepage but if you want to be a wildland firefighter you gotta put up with the  FS. Believe me I know the bull that they can put you through but what you gonna  do, complain? yeah you could but I prefer to grin and bear it and soothe my  latent pyromania each summer. That's a good site, but was already on the links page.  Ab
02/03	pack test post 2/01  the fatalities:  I expect the FS to cover their asses just like the  always do.  The 'official investigation' will blame the deaths on  anything from the ken starr investigation to the hole in the ozone layer  to avoid admitting the pack test is bad.  why did the FS keep the pack test secret while under development?  After  repeated (unsuccessful) requests for information through official  channels I finally submitted a FOIA request direct to Missoula to get  some information.  Even then Missoula gave out only limited  documentation.  I had several friends in the medical and fitness fields  look at the limited info I had and the opinion was unaminous -- BOGUS!!  -- NO CORRELLATION TO FIRELINE SPECIFIC TASKS--  except for carrying a  backpump.  One of the arguments in support of the packtest was too many people know  how to cheat the steptest.  Big Deal!! How long will it take for the  packtest cheat tricks to get around?  (Carbo load the night before and  take a couple of Vivarin washed down with a Jolt Cola 1/2 hour before  the test -- it's all legal!)  There is some evidence sex the morning of  a physical fitness tests helps performance.  As to who carries a full backpump? -- basic supervision texts  specifically mention to either 1) pass the weight around to different  people frequently, or 2) carry more backpumps only partially full.  Couple that with admonitions in several Agencies' safety manuals to  avoid carrying more than 1/4 your body weight for sustained periods and  1/3 for short periods.  In summary -- The pack test needs to be reconsidered by managers in all  agencies.  If the NWCG keeps it we may need a little civil disobedience.  incidentally -- I pass the test easily.  This is not sour grapes.  Rurik  Insightful comments Rurik, we always enjoy hearing your perspective.  Ab
02/01	As you may have heard there have been two deaths associated with the  pack test.  One in the Pacific Northwest and most recently one in  Arkansas.  I've had some concerns with this pack test since it first  came out.  I agree that we need something better than the step test but (as far as I know) there were no fatalities associated with it.  We're these  men just out of shape? or did they have pre-existing medical  conditions that went unchecked?  There was supposed to be an  investigation from the first death, I haven't heard anything.  Supposedly there's another investigation, will we hear something from  this one?  The physical required to take this test or fight fire is a joke at  best.  Doctors are required take your pulse, have you run in place for  several minutes, listen to your heart, and you're ready to fight fire.  There's nothing in this physical that signals to a doctor that you may  have a medical condition, or that you're not be fit to fight fire, nor  does it indicate that you're fit to push yourself with this pack test.   We've all seen people in this job with various physical and medical  conditions that should keep them off the fireline but the physical  exam does not address them.  The only adequate test is a stress EKG.  If your heart rate reaches  dangerous levels, a trained medical technician will stop this test  immediately and monitor your recovery.  I've heard how and why this pack test was developed but the truth is  the MINIMUM REQUIRED weight for wildland firefighting is 20 lbs with  an additional 6 lbs for a handtool.  I've been on two hotshot crews,  and we tried to keep gear to a 35 lb. weight max.  Normally the  sawyers carry the greatest weight because of saw kits, chaps, wedges,  etc. so packs normally range from 25 - 35 lbs. Gear weighing more is  the exception and definitely NOT the rule.  Why would we carry a 45  lb. piss pump for 3 miles within 45 minutes?  What cammando mop up  freak would push their crew like this???  The military and any number of world wide organizations have tests  that suit our job but we always have to reinvent everything, tried or  untried.  The facts are that the agencies do not want to recognize their workforce as firefighters, only forestry/range techs with firefighting  as additional duties. Since they don't recognize us as firefighters  they don't have to pay us as firefighters; hence no 24 hour portal to  portal pay (not the lame one the FS came up with). They don't have to  do adequate medical testing to ensure we are "fit" for duty.  They have a cheap fire department and want to keep us that way.  God  forbid you get injured in the job, it's then a fight with OWCP to get  this agency to care for you, but that's another story!  We are firefighters regardless of what the agencies say we are.  None  of us would be working if they didn't need a fire force.  By not  recognizing us as  firefighters they don't have to give us adequate  medical/fitness testing, they don't have to pay us, they don't have to  train us, and they don't have to take care of our life long injuries.  Just one persons opinion.  Ditto!  Ab
01/31	Anyone out there that has put together S-130 / S-190 power point programs that are willing to share?  J. Gobel  WI DNR  gobelj@mail01.dnr.state.wi.us
01/29	Im looking for info on class-a-foam.Please include all and any  info.Percentages of foam to water needs to be included. Also anybody with info  on wildland/urban interface preplans would be  outstanding.  Thank You  BC Gary Davis  gary1130@aol.  NJFFS  WTFD
01/27	Red Skies of Montana  Looking for any information on this old classic. Based on the Mann Gulch fire  this 1952 movie is hard to get hold of. Any help in locating a copy or leads  would be appreciated. thanks  My EMail is De4Fire @AOL.com
01/27	Good to see people finally getting fired up about the Portal To Portal  issue again. This is something that the FWFSA has and is continuing to  work towards. Portal to Portal is an issue that must be changed at the  Federal Level (read Congressional) and is going to take time. The Portal  issue the FWFSA supports is true time and a Half after 8 with all  differentials, NOT the one that the F.S. came up with that would do away  with HP etc.      The FWFSA continues to be a strong force in Washington and is  working toward this and many other goals. One, Affordable health  benefits for temporaries is already a reality.      And to answer Bears comment on 12/28 YES the FWFSA is still around  and strong. You have to remember that it is run by working firefighters  like yourselves and in between busy summers, our regular jobs and  continued lobbying we try to pump out a newsletter and update a web  page. Changing things on Capital hill is a long and tedious job, so  "bear" with us.      And remember-Its Your Future-We need your support. Look into  joining. For info. follow the link  http://www.airtanker.com/fwfsa/index.html                              -Tonka
01/25	My name is Zak I'm 20 years old and from Upstate NY.  I was in a National  Service program out west called Americorps NCCC.  I missed out on the  opportunity to become certified in Red Card.  My friends who got their Red  card went to the Florida fires in july 98 and I was extremely envious. I  would like to know where and when I could recieve training like this so I  could join a fire crew one day.  I have an intense interest in fire science  and a few pointers on where to begin would help me out tremendoulsly.   Thank  you,  Zak Trojnar  I know, I know, I said no more "how do I get a job" questions. Normally I just refer the sender to the Jobs section on the links page in a private message.  But I don't know anything about the Americorps NCCC and thought someone may be able to help.  Ab
01/25	A couple new links have been added to the link page.  Ab  www.airtanker.com/airtankerart http://www.angelfire.com/mi/fire3300/dnr.htm
01/24	I would like to recommend that everyone look at the posting Abie  did regarding the step test and the pay issue. The Step Test  was looking fairly good up until now, I thought it was a fair  test of physical fitness because it put into play what it would  be like on the line in reality. The pay statement did feel like  a slap in the face. If its an 8-hour, 12-hour, 16-hour, or 24-hour  shift fire crews, regardless of them being engine, helitact,  or handcrew, are going to work the shift they are assigned and  not bicker about how long the shift lasts.  CDF and other State and Local Government fire agencies place  thier crews on portal-to-portal pay when on long assignments.  The biggest thing to consider here are the crews that are flown  out and spike out on the line for days at a time, and are not  flown back that day. Those firefighters can stay back there for  a week or more and should be paid 24 hours a day. But crews that  go out on Strike Team should also get it from the time they leave  to the time they return home. They are away from their families,  they cannot go running off everywhere to do what they want, and  it helps to curve problems that occur during off-duty time.  There is also no bickering with a crew supervisor who fills out  the time reports. Everyone is paid the same hours, and the best  thing about it is the manipulative games that some supervisors  have played to cut out overtime are ended. The games of "I know  we worked 24 hours on the line, but I have to show lunch breaks,  rest periods, breaks, etc., so your actual time is going to be  18 hours"  and supervisors trying to make themselves look good by cutting  costs are done for good. Don't tell me it has never happened.  This would insure it never does again. It would also help with  the pay disparities we see between Federal and State/Local.  If you are ever asked about it from a supervisor or overhead,  support it.  Paul Dahlen  engine37@cncnet.com
01/24	Greetings all,  (this message has been updated)  A couple items for thought here.  First the meeting notes from the National Coordinators meeting in Tucsan, Az, click here to view it: ncmeet.  If ya don't know, these are the folks in charge of the GACC's responsible for sending and receiving resources.  If ya don't know what a GACC is, you may be at the wrong web site.  Several interesting items in the document.. . .some good info and insight, but a couple items jumped out and caused me to shake my head, get pissed, and start counting how many years I have left.   On another note, I just saw an urgent memo from a Forest FMO which I won't post here, but the header went like this, "STOP THE PACK TEST!".  Seems a firefighter died while taking the test and it is suspended for further evaluation.  The pack test is also referred to in the above NC notes, regarding the weight being adjusted to the height of individuals.  Now, I don't know how it is where you fight fire, actually I probably do, but follow my thoughts here regarding weight vs height.  From what I've experienced being on and around many fire crews for many years is that on any given crew, the fireline packs for each crewmember weighs about the same plus or minus a pound or so.  There is a basic complement of equipment needed to sustain the firefighter and his crew for 24 hours without outside logistical support.  Additional weight may stem from an assortment of small luxuries the savvy firefighter decides to carry (i.e. extra socks, rain poncho, thermals, camera, etc.).  When a fire assignment is received to hike to the top of a hill and begin constructing fireline, I am unable to recall allowing any of the crews I supervised to discard any basic requirements from their firepacks or web gear.  I've never seen one crewmember offering to carry anothers water canteens up the hill for them.  And I certainly don't recall the hill becoming less high or steep to accommodate any variances in individual height.  Back to the NC meeting notes less I begin to ramble.  There is a brief item on page 2 questioning whether federal wildland firefighters receiving 24 hour or portal/portal pay will continue to work beyond an 8 hour shift.  I consider this item a slap in the face of the ethics and values of all federal wildland firefighters!  While obviously neglecting consideration of the intrinstic dedication of the wildland firefighter, a bureaucratic manager has imagined a bogy-man lurking in the bushes of his mind.  An unwarranted critical concept has been created.  A totally unnecessary crisis without a single shred of justification has been invented.  A committee has been formed, statistics will be gathered, conclusions drawn, and recommendations delivered.  And how will this be accomplished?  Will  the payroll documents of each individual person recording overtime in excess of 8 hours during 1996 be scrutinized?  Will each of these people be contacted and asked if they would have exceeded and 8 hour shift even though they would have been paid for nonperformance?  Or will random sampling, statistical projections with questionable conclusions occur?  Without knowing, I'll wager my OT for the coming summer the originator of this issue has never stepped on a fireline as a member of a suppression crew.  What the hell goes through some people's minds?  Are they out of touch. . . .am I out of touch?  I'm still pissed!   I hereby challenge the person conceiving this idea to address the next Hotshot Superintendent's meeting, schedule it as a topic for discussion, and admit ownership.  Every sup' I know would fight to get in line for the opportunity to slap this person's face.  And that's how I see it.  Ab.
01/21	Ab,  I read the book a couple of summers ago, so I dont remember much about it. I remember it wasnt bad though, and my wife said she enjoyed it. For $5.50 you really cant go wrong. Give it a read.  Jeff
01/21	Hey Scrotum I read the book that you asked about on Jan the 18th.  I was an  interesting one and all in all it was not to bad. Although in the first  chapter or two it sounded a lot like The Storm King Mountain tragedy.  In the  cover it pays tribute to the 14 fellow firefighters who had fallen at Storm  King Mountain. It also gives thanks to Mr. David V. Holtby (I believe that may  be the father of Bonnie Holtby, One of the Prineville Hotshots??) The books  had some twist and some areas I think only Wildland Firefighters can relate  to, but it kept me reading.  Now I am no book critic but I thought is was  good.   :)  Cody
01/19	FIRST, I WANT TO COMPLEMENT YOU FOLKS ON A GREAT WEB SITE, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO PASS ON A FEW TIPS TO THOSE INTERESTED IN WORKING ON A HOTSHOT CREW THIS SUMMER. FIRST OFF, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND TO THOSE WHO WANT TO BE A HOTSHOT APPLY TO ALL THE CREWS IN THE NATION NOT JUST 1 OR 2 PER REGION. THIS CAN GET COSTLY WITH THE PHONE CALLS AND MAILING APPLs. BUT  WILL PAY OFF IN THE LONG RUN. ANOTHER THING IS TO GET INTO TOP PHYSICAL CONDITION. PEOPLE WOULD BE SURPRISED HOW MANY KIDS THING THEY ARE IN GOOD SHAPE THAT FIRST DAY OF WORK AND END UP TRYING TO CATCH UP WITH THE REST OF THE CREW, OR LIKE ON MY CREW BEING OUT OF A JOB DUE TO THEIR POOR PHYSICAL CONDITION. (YOU WOULD BE A SAFETY HAZARD TO YOUR CREW AND YOURSELF, AND THIS  IS NOT EXCEPTABLE). THE LAST ITEM I HAVE IS TO GET THEMSELVES MENTALLY PREPARED. THIS CAN BE DONE BY READING WILDFIRE AND/OR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER MAGAZINES, FORMAL AND INFORMAL TRAINING, TALKING WITH THE "OLD SALTS" OF THE FIRE WORLD. THESE A JUST A FEW TIPS TO HELP OUT THOSE THAT WANT TO BE ON A HOTSHOT CREW THIS SUMMER. AND I'M WILLING TO BET THE ENGINES AND AIR WORLD FOLKS WOULD SAY BASICALLY THE SAME THING TO THOSE LOOKING FOR JOBS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE AREAS. GOOD LUCK AND HOPE TO SEE YA OUT THERE.
01/18	Hey Ab,  I'd like to know if anyone has read or knows anything about this  book?  I discovered ti while searching for hotshot pages.  http://www.swcp.com/~tanzola/jvg/hotshots.html Scrotum
01/13	Im looking for a shareware version of a SCBA Bottle inventory program. Do  you have any suggestions?  Thank You  Bret Feingold  Training Officer Florence Fire Dept.  Here's about all I could find with a quick search tonight: http://www.download.com/PC/Result/TitleList/1,2,0-a-0-0-e-1,00.html?st.dl.fd.qs.results Ab
01/13	Thought you might appreciate this... I rarely see fire-related jokes... (no  need to print it... it's kind of stupid)  The photographer for a national magazine was assigned to get photos of  a great forest fire. Smoke at the scene was too thick to get any good  shots, so he frantically called his home office to hire a plane.  "It will be waiting for you at the airport!" he was assured by his  editor.  As soon as he got to the small, rural airport, sure enough, a plane  was warming up near the runway. He jumped in with his equipment and  yelled, "Let's go! Let's go!" The pilot swung the plane into the wind  and soon they were in the air.  "Fly over the north side of the fire," said the photographer, "and  make three or four low level passes."  "Why?" asked the pilot.  "Because I'm going to take pictures! I'm a photographer, and  photographers take pictures!" said the photographer with great  exasperation and impatience. After a long pause the pilot said, "You mean you're not the  instructor?" (Vanessa)  Sorry Vanessa, I had to share this one.  It kinda reminds me of some of our recon observers at the beginning of each fire season. . . map?, radio?, yep!, yep!  Now which way do we go?  Ab
01/11	Please find enclosed a letter written by a fire fighter from the CFA VictoDear Firefighters and supporters, Paul Hardy Have posted the letter here: clickme  use the "back" button on your browser when you are done.  Ab
01/11	Please find enclosed a photo i took of a wildfire in Bell,New South Wales,Australia,my name is Paul Hardy i am a volunteer from the Narre Warren F/B in the Country Fire Authority Victoria Australia.If these photos are of intrest to you i have some more .Please feel free to contact me.   Sounds good to me Paul, but send us the ones with flames in 'em!  Ab
01/08	well i think some one has done it, none of that fed or state crap, the way it  is, real people fightin fires  you have a great site  thanks  william wolfe   wolfe wildfire suppression Thank you William, letters like yours justify my efforts!  Abercrombie
01/05	Happy New Year!  I (as are many of my and your associates) am receiving many email, phone and snail mail inquiries about firefighting, hotshot crews, training and where/when to apply.  Here's a link to the Lolo IHC, the National IHC Program and some training opportunities in Western MT.  Though these sites don't have all the answers, it is a good starting point. The  National IHC page is very incomplete as only a handful of crews are on the web.  I hope that by posting w/ you (and other fire sites), all the crews will see the merit of having their own  website.   Lolo Hotshots URL:  http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/lolo/hotshots/loloihc.htm National IHC webpage w/ links to crews:  http://www.umt.edu/globalfirenet/nationalpage.htm Training opportunities in Western MT:  http://www.umt.edu/globalfirenet/train.htm Thanks for helping out!   kark@montana.com My pleasure, will add these links to the Links page under Jobs.  Ab
01/05	greetings - just found your web site - great - will be back again -  am a small contractor - type II tender - with a bunch of old nam-vets - who  have fire experience structural, urban interface, and one old 'hot shot'  John Thomas  Thomas Task Force, Inc  2004 Perry Ave.  Bremerton, WA 98310  ThomasTask@aol,com Glad ya found it John, come back frequently!  Ab
01/04	Greetings folks, Happy New Year, & a toast to the coming fire season!       Raise your glass, (or can) to the hottest fire season we've ever seen.  Here's to record shattering overtime, successful initial attacks, 24 hour shifts, 0500 briefings, having 10 con crews just beat you to the breakfast line, and shower units lost en route!  Of course, this all comes with zero loss of life and the lowest loss of property and resources in history.  While we're at it, raise your cups a little higher in tribute to all those who have gone before, especially those who have given their lives on the fireline, the lessons they have given, so we may learn.       We all know why choose to keep doing this.  For those of ya who don't know. . . my condolences (hint:  it ain't the money)!       Ab.       PS:  I chopped off most of this page and archived it.  Will give the current threads a couple of weeks before cutting them off at the new year.  Archived messages are available at the bottom of this page.
01/04	Hi again,  Ken.  I am the one who emailed you about the budget cuts.  I  think you hit the nail right on the nose.   I think as they cut seasonal  positions,  they leave the fire fighting to the perm.  workers.  Sadly  to say there many of them have not got in "to the field"  in awhile,  they have stuck doing adm. duties and are not up to the task.  I  remember, when I was up in Colorado,  on the Ahraphoe NF, we did even  have enough people "Red Carded" to form a crew.  We had to wait on  personal from near-by Rocky Mountain NP,  for about an hour, wasting  valuable time, then we had to give the three NPS people their "step  test", wasting more time.  When is  Congress going to get a clue!  Hopefully the fires down here in Florida  last year have open some eyes in Washington.  More INFO on the Job Corps Program:  Job Corps is run by the Dept. of Labor, in conjunction with the Forest  Service, National Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, BLM, BIA, and  some private.  Job Corps was set up to give " Disadvantage Youth between the age of  16-23 a chance to finish their education and to some training in a  trade.  There are about 300 centers Nationwide.  I few of these let you  have a chance to get Wildland Firefighting training and serve as AD  firefighter.   A few others have a Forestry program as well.  There a  Forestry Scholarship for a very lucky few to Texas A&M with a four year  position with Forest Service.  Thanks,  Ori Schachter