DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Jan-Feb99) Return to Archives Page
04/30	Does anyone know where you can find the Federal Government OF-612 Application Form Program? I saw it somewhere in one of the Fed Websites. If you know please let us know. Paul Dahlen
04/27	i was intrested in finding info on the decker fire do you know if anybody has  any please let me know Well, it rings a bell, but no solid information, readers?  Ab
04/24	I really liked your site.  I was on the Mendocino Hotshots and it was good to see the decal. Mark Parry Glad ya liked it Mark, come back often!  Ab.
04/23	Here are 3 digital photos of a Thrush 600 SEAT under contract with the State of South Dakota.  Max capacity 400gals, normal load is 300-350 gals. Thanks!  They've been added to the guest2 page.  Ab
04/23	Just a quick note to let you know that as of Thurs. 8 AM National Prepardness Level went to a II.... Pack your bags.Mike And I understand Noth Ops has expanded their hours/including weekends in anticipation of resource orders.  Ab
04/22	Ab, Info is not always as timely as we'd like it to be concerning your  remarks regarding fwfsa. But current info was posted alot sooner than you may  have gotten it maybe you should join and you would get info much quicker so  you can get word out in your forum. Your page is valuable daily info but  nothings for free!!! jeffsz00tv
04/19	An Open Letter to the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association I've been talking to some key members of the FWFSA.  I was informed and checked it out, the home page of the FWFSA has finally been updated!  There's some interesting and positive news regarding the association's president's recent visit to Washington.  I've had to agree with some of the past comments here on The Wildland Firefighter's Web Page referring to the lack of maintenence and response to individual's questions to the FWFSA page.  I think the association has dropped the ball in using the power of the net as an information outlet for current members and a tremendous opportunity to recruit new members. I belive in the FWFSA folks!  Therefore, in the effort to assist this worthy cause, I hereby offer my services to help maintain, free, without charge, the FWFSA web site.  Whether my offer is accepted or not, I encourage the powers that be to find a webmaster with the necessary time to devote to their site.  My first suggestion, FWFSA, go grab your own web site,  www.fwfsa.org looks like it is still open!  Stop hiding behind the skirts of www.airtanker.com.  What groundpound'in son-of-a-bitch is gonna trust a web site that begins with www. airtanker?  The annual costs of obtaining and having an ISP host your own domain name is not that much.  Although I love to see airtankers a'cumming on a hot line just as any fireman, I personally consider the idea of a URL that begins with www. airtankers.com with  /fwfsa tagging along behind inappropriate.  With all due respect to the flyboys, airtanker pilots and ground forces don't have a lot in common when it comes to survival on the ground or in congress.  I'm referring to issues like wages, benefits, retirement, and life on the line!  Where do pilots eat and sleep vs handcrews or engine crews on any given fire?  Ever seen an airtanker pilot in the chow or shower line? At least that's how I see it, Ab.
04/19	I just got back from Florida last night .  My engines and tenders are kickin Ash but the structures being lost are due to leaving the damn fuels right up against their homes.    When F.E.M.A. Gets involved then the funding will be here to call additional resources.  The only water chances my crews are using are swimming pools .  Unless something happens with mother Nature this beast will not stop until it gets a mouth full of salt water.  I'll keep you posted Your Friend in Fire Dave Pitts
04/19	It's Spring cleaning time at Abercrombie's.  It's time to get rid of excess and unwanted computer parts, software, and anything else I've been tripping over that may have some value to other folks.  Besides, since I don't accept advertisements, I can use the money to help keep this page going.  I think an online auction is in order!  I think there's probably enough trust in this web site to get some kinda response from ya'all.  I'm not sure how many of you have visited the online auction sites, but this will be a bit different.  It will be a no holds barred, no reserve, no wasted time, no bullshit opportunity to get some cheap computer stuff.  Go here to see the details and what's available: Auction Page  Ab.
04/18	Well folks, get ready...its happening all over again...Florida is afire and all areas northward to Maine. this may indeed be the year that the entire eastern US gets a wake up call. Unfortunately this is something that has been predicted and no one could possibly believe that it could happen here.surprise..its happening...... I just hope that the resources are committed before its too late...we are definitely going to need help Mike
04/18	Couple weeks ago, I received my Male Class Complaint newsletter ( A Federal R5 FS thing)  First off, Hats off to you folks for your perseverence! For ten years of true grit. To refresh others, the slogan is "Dare to Be Fair". The newsletter adddressed being at a crossroads and are soliciting suggestions for dealing with the trust fund. One idea raised is to give it to a charitable organization. I propose a contribution to the FWFSA. The FWFSA is like the Male Complaint, focusing on fairness. Both involve attempting to correct wrongs by our agency, and FWFSA will also include professional wildland firefighter from othe federal agencies. FWFSA is linked to this great website, check it out. We are on the doorstep of a great opportunity to achieve fairness in pay and classification, get involved. If you do or have contributed to the Male Class Complaint, then express your opinion and request dollars be given to an organization which will be able to continue to benifit you. Also, if your in the dark on this issue and think the Male Class Complaint was a "GUY" thing and got turned off when you saw the name, guess again.  I know lots of women who were in total support of DARE TO BE FAIR. (It's about a legal battle w/R5 FS to hire on the basis of Merit Promotion and not discriminate, like the law states.)  You can contact them at: Male Class Complaint - P.O. Box 1462, Chester, CA 96020 0r, e-mail: r5mc @crisis.com Be Careful out there! Torch
04/15	Unable to find final scores for brush class taught last week in Pasadena,  NEED HELP!!!! Captain Ron Bell #5351
04/15	RE:  Pack Test Check out the March issue of Wildland Firefighter Magazine
04/14	Well, there weren't a whole lot of orders for KY, (see 04/12) around 9 overhead and a lead plane here in Northern R5.  However, New Mexico is gearing up for severity, a few resource orders (overhead) were received today.  Ab
04/14	Enjoyed your web page.  Check out www.firewise.org with good fire service and homeowner news and info for folks living and working in wildland/urban areas.  You can register and receive email notification for the new web issues of Wildfire News & Notes! Keep up the great page!
04/14	To those who care about the unwritten double standard  that exists out there  each and every day you do your job respectively!  We are @ a crossroad again  in our career. Our local congressional reps, need to hear from you in a  written response. Support FWFSA/IAFF and their endeavor to promote basic  fairness amongst federal wildland firefighters. OPM has been directed by the  Clinton Administration to address our concerns, as wildland firefighters!  They need support in membership numbers! To take to Congress and show we are  treated unlike all of our cooperators whom ae formerly classified as  firefighters and are paid portal to portal accordingly, unlike ourselves. The  majority of wildland firefighters nationwide realize that we need formal  recognition for the job we do and our families and our retirement. We all  barely retire on enough to eat off of as a single person is that right?  FWFSA/IAFF have carried the ball towards our concerns as wildland  firefighters. They fight each and every day and need our money more now then  ever before. We were conveniently left out of the Federal Firefighter Pay  Fairness Act due to the fact that the all Federal agencies denied that we are  wildland firefighters. They say we are "Forestry Technicians", they twist the truth for their benefit for their own insecurities as equal professionals and  agenda's. We must voice the truth that we sacrifice our safety and lives each  time we respond on incidents just like our counterparts! But they fear the  short term effect of supporting us. Their concern are loss of dollars and  workforce numbers, which 3/4 reside in FIRE. We will never progress and  become more professional if we don't tackle the lie that has existed for  twenty years too long. We need to be treated just like a professional fairly  and equitbly! We protect life, property and environment. We put the match to  the ground and predict fire behavior in the wildfire situation and in  prescribed fire. Don't sell out and accept the traditional viewpoint. We  change many years ago in our mission. Training and daily tasks reflect that  fact just think about what the majority of your time spent is doing? Is it  Cleaning campgrounds or Fire Related activities! IF you can't answer that  honestly your not a firefighter!!! Support FWFSA/IAFF you can see for  yourself www.airtanker.com/fwfsa/index.html ... X-Forest Service Chiefs and  every day Battalion Chiefs and working firefighters are fighting for you in  Washington D.C. not NFFE!!! So visit the page and see for yourselves.
04/14	Hi there... Just wanted to lend a word of support to the R5 Hotshot foreman  preaching safety... from what I can see the fatalities in Kentucky  last week were from smoke inhalation?  This probably hits home for a  lot of fire people... I'm doing prescribed fire currently and we eat  so much smoke that I often wonder exactly how dangerous it is.  I  feel terribly for those firefighters and their families, and I think  their tragedy should put us all on guard.  I agree wholeheartedly that safety and training are the best way to  prevent injury and death on the fireline, and from my point of view,  you can't go about reducing fuels until you have enough people  trained safely to do prescribed burns.  I am thoroughly convinced  that the biggest danger in prescribed burning is that people let  their guard down and feel like it isn't dangerous since it isn't a  wildfire.  In addition, some of the folks who work for me are  convinced that prescribed fires don't escape much in the southeast,  where we're burning, and that fire shelters would not do much good if  they did.  However, fuel buildups are so heavy in this area right  now, people are afraid of Rx burning, and the RHs have been so low  that we can't do much burning anyway.  Thus the problem continues.  I also have to agree with some other discussion I've seen lately... I  think the people forecasting a nasty year for Florida this year and  for the east coast someday soon are not too far off, because the  urban interface is much more of an issue than I ever imagined.  I ran  across a fire burning in a neighborhood yesterday in a couple of lots  between two houses.  The fuels were heavy enough and the weather was  causing enough trouble for the state forest service to send two  planes, at least five or seven engines and a dozer for something like  a 2 acre fire.  It was the first active wildfire I'd seen in an urban  interface area in the east, and I was just driving by.  I think that  training and safety in these areas are unique problems that you don't  hear a lot of discussion about, yet wildfires are moving into urban  interface areas more and more.  The other thing that amazed me was  that these were not people with $200,000 homes lighting up in  Florida, these were poor families who probably don't have much  insurance.  To me, the south seems like one big tinderbox just  waiting for some bad conditions, and I can't believe there isn't more  education or effort to take on this potential nightmare.  No one  wants another year like Florida had last year, yet it seems like  Floridians may be the only ones taking the lessons to heart.  I'd be  interested in hearing opinions... I may be missing some information,  but I'd like to know how interested the fire community is in this  type of stuff.... Sign me firegirl
04/14	The anonymous "45" (below) wants pack test info and asks why the Forest Service dropped it. The FS didn't drop it, they just temporarily suspended it pending completion of (a) the fatality investigation and (b) some other screening information items. You can read about this at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml. The letter from Phil Janik detailing this temporary suspension of the test is at http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/ More details on the pack test itself are at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/packtest.html ****************** Kelly Andersson kanderss/wo,nifc http://www.fs.fed.us/fire USFS Fire & Aviation Management
04/13	Hi, I am looking for info on the packtest...on the deaths associated with it, why the USFS dropped it and why the NPS is continuing with it. I would like to remain anonymous as best as possible. Sign me, 45 I can guarantee your anonymity, but not sure about the info.  The best place to start would be here in the archives around the date it happened (see links at the bottom of this page).  I don't recall any "official" documents being circulated, but the readers might.   Ab.
04/12	Resource orders for overhead and equipment began arriving late last night in R5 for Kentucky.  You'd best let yer boss know where you will be today.  Ab
04/11	Hello, My name is Tim Hankins I would very much appreciate it If you could send me a copy of the following photos on your " wild and Fire " homepage. Thank you very much. Guest1 G18 P.S. If you have any information on the two pictures I request would you please pass it along.  If you send me the two photos I plan on having them blown up " poster size " . Thanks Again I can't send you the photos Tim, but you can save them from the web site by right clicking on them and saving them to your computer.  Copy them to a floppy and take the file to a photo shop.  I'm sure they can help you out.  Any information for the pics is included on the description page which you get to by clicking on the link under the photo.  Ab
04/11	Seen the info sent on the 2 fatalities in Kentucky. Buddy called me, and said he saw the news on Fri (4/9) and there was a fatality in Mass. Some folks battling a veg. fire up there and things went bad. Has anyone else heard of this? Speaking of fatalities...  The Wildfire or Wildland Firefighter magazine had an article with Bruce Babbitt a couple issuses ago. He spoke of the South Canyon fatalities. In the article he says he made a promise to the the families of our fellow firefighters to help to eliminate the fuel problems out there. This in turn will help us in our fire suppression efforts from a safety stand point. While we need to RX burn to eliminate the fuel problems in the west I think the big picture is being missed here. I would like to see about half the dollars going to these RX burns throughout the west, to go to SAFETY. Eliminating the fuel build up in the west is a step, but fires will always be there and some will burn hotter, faster and more devastating than others. We need to think first of firefighter safety (which, not everyone does otherwise we wouln't be having deaths on these firelines) and the fuels problem although is a huge part of it should be secondary. We must first teach folks about these massive fuel build ups and base their suppression actions on SAFETY ALWAYS. Start getting our kids (employees) to training classes, get with the FBAN's, the old salts... to get the training and experience for when these fires with deadly fuel build up happen we all know when to go direct, indirect, burn out, backfire or sit in the safety zone and come up with a contingency plan. I know I'm probably pissing up a tree on this because even safety has a dollar amount to it. I'm sure some will not agree with me on this issue, but I feel strong about it. Thanks, R5 Hotshot foreman  There was indeed another fatality in Massachusettes, details can be found at the link below this message.  Ab
04/11	News reports from both Massachusetts and Kentucky are at: http://www.firehouse.com/news/99/4/9_lodd.html -- kelly
04/11	Here's the report I mentioned yesterday regarding the Kentucky fatalities.  Ab kentucky.htm
04/10	anyone have any details on the two fatalities in Kentucky?? only thing I have been able to find is off of the sit report on Friday, and it gave no details other then they were vol. firefighters....... I read a preliminary chronological report yesterday, will try to get it scanned and posted here tomorrow.  Ab.
04/09	The best info the guvmint has is at  www.r5.fs.fed.us/inyo/index.htm , click on  Management, then on Division fire update, lots of stuff in there fire  progression maps, photos etc . Have fun !!
04/09	We have a Regional Occupation Program here on the Sequoia where we train High School seniors and anybody over 18 in Wildland Firefighting. We have an excellent placement rate. Anyway, yesterday we did a field trip with engines and portable pumps,  we trained the crews in progressive and simple hoselays, mobile attack and portable pumps, all hands on with Model 51 and 62 engines. Anyone in CA knows the weather here has been kind of weird, here is what happened yesterday.  It was cold in the morning,  mid 40's. we had scattered showers with snow above 5000 feet. Around 1200 hrs, in between rain showers a brush fire broke out near Bodfish, we sent a type 3 engine staffed with on-duty instructors to go do initial attack with Kern County FD.  Report on conditions put the fire at 5 acres and wind driven, burning in grass and sage up a moderately steep slope, with potential to go to 60 acres. We could see the smoke from the training session and the students were pretty excited, they got to listen to the dispatch traffic and we were close enought to listen to the tactical traffic too, I commented to them about how lucky they were to hear "real" fire traffic while they were practicing fighting fire. The weird part was the fire burned intensely for about an hour and the next rain squall came in and along with hoselays on each side the fire was picked up around 20 acres ( last I had heard)  by 1700 hrs steady rain was falling and snow starting falling around 1900, when I woke up this AM we had 4 inches of snow on the ground!  We are way behind on our precip for the year, grass crop is not too good but last years is still around,   this should be an interesting summer!!  Sting
04/08	Here is a link for your state page section to the Minnesota DNR Fire page- http://www.ra.dnr.state.mn.us/fire/ D. Carlson deepwoods@usa.net
04/08	Yo Ab, Was looking at your links page at http://wildlandfire.com/links.htm I get an AWFUL lot of links on the Wildfire News website from you ... I noticed some of the links have a nice graphic banner; I did one for the USFS fire page you can swipe here: http://www.wildfirenews.com/firebar.jpg link to http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/ There are a few other interior pages you might want to link to (pretty please). :) All the fire reports a person might want are now collected on ONE page at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/reports.shtml The expanding news page is at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml The new site for the Redding Smokejumpers is at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/operations/jumpers/redding/ The airtanker base directory is at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/basedir.html And there is a growing list of hotshot crews at: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/infodir.shtml (eventually they'll ALL be online) Thanks again for running a GREAT website - it's really one of the BEST out there! --  ************** Kelly Andersson Editor, WILDFIRE NEWS http://www.wildfirenews.com Thanks Kelly!  Ab.
04/08	A word to the wise,  Things are really starting to heat up here on the  George Washington NF,  A couple reports of prescribed burns gone wild  this week, with the public starting to camp, burn trash, etc. it could  get hairy in the next month or so Whit Go GWNF!  Here in northern R5 we received another 4-12 inches of snow today, and will probably get some more on Sat.  Although it will melt quick at the elevations below 4000 feet, the 1000 hour fuels are plumb soaked.  Cum'on sunshine!  Ab.
04/07	great site !I found it a couple of months ago and look at it every day  while waiting for a dispatch...... it's been prety quiet here in  Minnesota . i work on a hellitack crew hear so just waiting for anything  !!!!  Does anyone know whats going on in the south ? i heard of some people  being sent but just wondering if it will be a repeat of last year ?   well stay safe out there and let me know if anyone can help thanks,Tony
04/07	Just got back from Florida it's dry and we have been on a few fires there since Feb.  Most controled burns.  Texas this week was damn dry and hotter than hell, Arizona is a bomb ready to blow !  Here in Idaho the fine fuels are tall and growning if it heats up with all the blow down and the timber raping thats going on (slash)  One of these days Idaho will make Yellowstone look like a spark.  On a brighter note I am opening a new station in Brookings Oregon.   I will be looking for engine crew members and tender operators.  Engine bosses start at $15.00 per hour and crew members at $11.00 .  I'll be heading to Texas next week and keep everyone updated on the fire sit. there and New Mexico. Your Friend in Fire Dave Pitts President/Engine Boss Ash Kickers Inc. www.cyberhighway.net/~ashkickr Hell Won't Have Us.... We'll Just Put It Out!!!! P.O. Box 1124 Riggins, Idaho 83549
04/07	Hi Ab: A question for you. Why can't we get information from North and South Zone when we can get it from all other GACCS. Dose the freedom of information act include region 5?         Stay at home I'm really not sure why they don't have a site yet, perhaps Kelly can tell us, Kelly? Ab.
04/06	Hey Ab : My Boss Dave Pitts Might be looking for another GS - 12.  He is in Florida on a burn right now but I remembered he was looking for someone for our Idaho station. Paul Townsend Communications/Fire Dispatcher  Ash Kickers Inc. Go for it Paul!   Ab
04/06	"NTFS"   Are you talking the Private contracting outfit from sacramento NTF ???? What the hell Happened ???? Your Friend in Fire Dave Pitts I haven't heard of any responsibility being placed on a contracting crew.  What I have heard from a member of the Type I team is that the rx burn was conducted successfully and the fire was mopped up to the point of zero smokes showing before the crews left the scene.  Later that evening it sounds like the jet stream surfaced in the area and perhaps found an ember remaining in some deep duff or a root pocket in an area of an old oak stand.  Flame lengths were reported at around 50+ feet, however, with the wind effects were no more than 5-6 feet above ground level.  This was an unpredicted weather event, all regulations and safety measures had been followed correctly.  There were no findings of neglect or blame placed on the burn boss.  Ab
04/06	Ab, regarding the sit report unavailability -- that was just a temporary problem due to a computer system change-over at NIFC. The national sit report, the morning report (when they start it back up) and sit reports from some of the GACCS are all available at one spot now: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/reports.shtml ****************** Kelly Andersson kanderss/wo,nifc http://www.fs.fed.us/fire USFS Fire & Aviation Management
04/05	Some random thoughts:  regarding the Inyo don't suppose NTFS (Not The Forest Service) was involved?  Anyway haven't been here in awhile, the Inyo escape could be interesting, the last time there was a big escape alot of us fuel types were drug down to Sac and lectured/threatened and warned if we weren't more careful the FS wouldn't let burn no more.  Gee wouldn't that been cuttin off the proverbial nose, but then again maybe i could have done more fishin all these years instead of the thankless job of burn bossin'.  On the diver found on the fire, i heard the guy say hittin the ground wasn't near as bad as getting pushed through all them holes in the scoop. that's all for now, CB signin off from radio free willie I haven't heard many details yet on the escape, but I'm sure we will.  Stay tuned!  Ab
04/04	does anyone know the new URL for daily sit reports, the old one does not work.. You're right, the link wasn't responding today, but I think it must just be down temporarily.  I'll do some more checking.  Ab
04/01	Ab, just wanted to commend you for doing such a great job with this site. I stumbled upon you by accident and I am certainly glad I did! Thanks for a place to meet people I can relate with. I'm new at this internet thing, and I just want to say good job. I have been a paid wildland firefighter for 4yrs., and volunteer structure firefighter for 8yrs. Arizona is already burning amigos, get ready for a hell of a season... mp Thank ya kindly mp.  Ab
03/31	Those winds yesterday, March 30, blew a Rx burn down the hill and through a LA  water and power Powerplant got 2 houses, several outbuildings, 2 cars . I cant  believe it . All you burn bosses out there double check your spot forecasts.  From 0030 hours to 0600 hours it ran for 2000 acres. Nothing like the wind in  the sage brush. Mostly I can't believe it because I didn't think that the Inyo  would burn at all. As we enter burning seasons nationwide it would be good to  watch your weather. Dave
03/30	Greetings from Snake River country in Southern Idaho I've been out of the loop for over five years....completed my training at the NZ Training Center Feb. 1994 and then never got to use it. would you know of any need for a GS-12 [trainee] this season? would appreciate any info you have...do not want to be on payroll to FS. Julia Dawn Anyone need a GS-12 rookie crewmember this year?  Ab
03/30	Just some insight from the East Coast.... Last year should be a wake up call to the folks along the East coast..ie..the fires in Florida. Along with the increased fires in Florida this year already, the entire east coast is a inferno waiting to be ignited.... Somewhere the population of the East have become complacent about the dangers of wildfires and unfortunately even the fires of '98 in Florida did not awaken them.. The Appalacian Mountains as well as other areas in the East have been under the stomp out every smoke addage for years and the result of fuels that have built up are disasterous. The West always has the larger fires and the East coast population is under the unfortunate oppinion that it can't and will not happen here. The state agencies have been trying their best to inform the public of the dangers of urban-interface and it seems to fall on deaf ears. The fire season has had a early start here and it is only going to become more significant as homeowners decide its time to clean their yards and what a better way to get rid of the debris then to burn it. It may not happen this year or next, but it will and when it does these same folks will look in bewilderment and wonder how it ever happened. To the folks in the West...Keep your bags packed, you might be in for a trip to the East. To the folks on the East side, get ready for alot of nights with no sleep and plenty of work.... Yessss!  I'm ready, Ab.
03/30	Hey Ab, just wanted to say what a great site you have.I ran it across it while I was searching the usfs web links. I am a volunteer fire fighter going on six years now. I like working both structural fires and wild fires. I enjoy wild fires alot more. Here in WV we dont have actual wild fires most of  them are just small brush fires.        I am going next month to take the step test for the first time.I was wandering if you would have any good tips for me that I could use to get ready?                       Thanks ahead of time,     Munzig 633 You could try not drinking any liquids that would increase your metabolic rate and don't smoke anything for many hours before.  If that fails, try exercising to get into shape, if all else fails and ya just have to fight fires and wanna die on the line, try holding your upper arm close to your torso to squeeze off that blood flow to your wrist.  That is, if the person administering the step test is grabbing your wrist to count the heart beats.  If the person insists on grabbing your neck to feel the carotid artery, and you can't convince them you have a fear of closeness, you'll just have to get in shape.  Ab
03/28	I found a page through a random search that contained the following information: As promised here's some quotes from Lyle Shook's goodbye message.  For  you not in the know Lyle was the Regional Safety & Health Manager, a  position he took after 21 years in fire in fact:  "I left a 21 year fire management career following an ear/throat/nose  infection that stopped my heart shortly.  Follow-up surgery removed a  blockage of dust, ash,lava dust, pollen, etc. from oxygen chambers in my  head.  Doctors thought wildland fire was a sort of dumb career to  continue."  Do you know if this is Dr. Lyle L. Shook that now teaches at Auburn University Montgomery, Alabama?  The page was located at http://www.wildlandfire.com/lyleshook.htm.  I am currently in his class. Thanks, K. Dan Burt Jr. Millbrook, AL I really don't know where Lyle went, readers?  Ab
03/27	Hey Ab, just filled some orders for Florida. Just thought I would send a message and tell the folks get those Red Bags packed and get those pagers on, don't want to miss an early trip to FL. And damn it's spring break there now also. Hmmmm that could be interesting. Thankfully we are Feds and travel all over. Well at least someone is starting to travel. Dripptorch@yahoo.com
03/27	N.J. Fire season has started 3/25 Div C. Section 9 - 60 acrea fire contained and controlled with 3 type 6 engines 1 tractorplow / tender unit and 10 pers. Fire was contained in approx 2 hours.
03/26	This is a fire that Lake County Fire/Rescue and Florida Division of Forestry worked south of Groveland, Florida west of SR 33 in March 1999. It would be great if you could include it in your photo layout.  Thanks See this photo on the guest page.  Ab
03/25	New Jersey Fire season started on March 20 and it has rained since our contract aircraft started on the 22nd and have not been online.  Noname Well, it's beginning to look like Spring here in the far West, slowly!  Ab
03/22	Some interesting stuff in this Sunday's paper regarding jobs. I won't bore you with all the details, just the facts as they saw it: Worst Working Environment:  #1.  President of the United States #2.  Firefighter #3.  Race car driver #4.  NFL football player #5.  Taxi driver Most Stress: #1.  President of the United States #2.  Firefighter #3.  Senior corporate executive #4.  Race car driver #5.  Taxi driver The article referred to a book called "Jobs Rated Almanac", I haven't looked it up..  Another list they provided was  the "Top 250 Jobs in America".  Firefighters ranked #216.  If you are wondering, the #1 was web site manager and #250 was roustabout/oil field laborer. I don't want as much money as the prez getz, I just want the respect! And you Abercrombie, you must have the worst or/and best job of all! Thanks for a great site and for providing a place to say my thoughts. Meat Bee
03/22	dear sir,    my name is David little and I'm a volunteer with the country fire authority in Victoria ,Australia and would like to know if you would like some photos of a trucks. I have a range of photos plus some general info on a number of our trucks . you can email me at     docdjl@hotmail .com thank you David little Sir?  Who me?  Save that for your Captain and by all means send in some photos.  Ab
03/22	I was trying to run the screen savers last night and I was unable to.  A friend said that it may be because the programs end with .zip and that I need a "unzipper".  Can you give me any info on how I can run these programs? thank you. You are correct about the .zip extension.  Go here http://www.winzip.com/ to download the newest Winzip program, it's shareware but doesn't cost too much and is a necessity for future downloads.  After installing Winzip all you will need to do is click on any file that has a .zip extension and the progam will unzip it for you.  You will then install the program using the normally included setup.exe program.  Make a separate folder to keep all your downloaded files in so you will know where they are and always run an anti-virus rpogram on them before unzipping them.   Ab
03/22	In response to the posting re: the story about the scuba diver being dumped out of a tanker (or helo).  It is URBAN LEGEND.  The story was first printed in the "Star" or "National Inquirer" or some other trash tabloid.  The cover pic was a C-130 dumping out of the back door with a diver shown falling below the tanker, and in very small print it said "simulated picture."  It also stated that the event took place in Turkey (or Greece)?  Never have seen a 130 scoop water, as far as the Martin-Mars goes the pickup tubes are only 6 inches in dia. and designed to brake off if any thing is hit, like a log or diver. don't think a diver would fit.  I to am asked about the story every so often and have to shout back "URBAN LEGEND."  Next time someone asks you can tell them it is just a story but you had some fish dropped on you one time in a bucket drop and you cooked them for lunch. Stay safe and Keep the wind at your back. WP
03/22	Anyone have info. on the chain of events that led to the fatality of a firefighter in Nebraska this week on the Mullen Fire? I hadn't heard, let me do some checking.  Ab
03/21	Hello ! Your photos are excellent If you can - see page: www.sgsp.edu.pl for fire photos from Poland Przemek Wysoczynski
03/21	Thanks for a nice website!  I was just surfing trying to find information on the Hog Fire in Klamath National Forest way back in 1977.  It was the fire that almost got me and my crew from Pennsylvania, when the side of the mountain went up the first night we were there. I should have some photos I can scan and send to you. Keep it safe... Keith Fuller You're most welcome Keith and send in those photos.  Can I ask what search engine you were using when you found the site?  Ab
03/19	To Mike's Question, I understand now. I talked with some fire contractors and contract firefighters I know out here in Region 5. I found out that those who work some type of paid job for a private individual usually have an agreement between each other allowing that firefighter to leave the job to fight fire. Most of the employers don't have a problem with it because they have a large group or workers available to fill in. Predominately the contract fire crews out here are either students, or winter-time workers who only need a little amount of money to get through until the next job, or self-employed. I also checked with a firefighters association here and there is no legislation or laws that are set that protect a regular worker from losing his job to go out as part of a contracted fire crew, and there is no real support or interest for such a law either from interested parties or by law makers. As mentioned before, laws were created to protect those who left their employment who were members of a volunteer department in time of emergency. Again, this is what is happening in California. The National Guard is considered a voluntary reserve force. My best sugestion for you would be to talk to your employer and see if he will let you respond without letting you go. MUSTANG 8337
03/19	Some new photos from Ashkickers on the NEW photo page Guest Photos2 .  While I'm at it I want to take this time to thank each of you who have sent in some pics!  There have been some damn fine ones come in and I know there are some more out there ya want us all to see. Don't ya just hate the idea of all those pictures you've missed because you were too busy on the nozzle or running the saw (or just plain runnin) to take just 30 seconds to snap a shot?  Have you ever tried to explain some of the things you've seen to your non-fire buddies or families?  The adrenelin rush, the beauty of destruction, the glory, the sense of awe?  Me too, never could quite get the words right. I'm starting to wonder about the size and download speed of this page.  I normally let it run for three months before archiving, but it's now up to 130k with a coule of weeks to go.  I realize most wildland firefighters live in the wild and generally don't have access to cable modem kinda speed ('cept for Sunash, lucky guy).  I would like to keep the pages on this site loading as fast as reasonably possible.  Drop me a line if you think any of the pages are getting too large and take too long to load.  Ab
03/19	This will probably get a few groans...but I need to know if anyone with any credibility in the wildland fire community can verify this rumor/story that keeps circling about the diver found in the woods?  Presumably dropped out of a water bucket?  I've searched and cannot find anything.  I'm sure you're as sick as I am of answering people's questions about it.  Is it purely URBAN LEGEND or is it true?  Nonames please. I can't verify the story, but I will say that when I heard it the diver was picked up by a Canadian Martin-Mars airtanker, not a bucket.  Ab
03/19	to answer the question of what I was refering to as a on call member of a crew, it is not a private contractor but a state agency that opperates under the min-atlantic compact to offer services to the US FOREST service where ever it is needed. As far as the question of pay I do not expect my employer to continue to pay my wages while I am on a fire with the forest service. I just would like to have the peace of mind to know that when I respond to a call-up of this type that my job is secure upon returning from a call-up. Members of the guard and reserve have that guarantee and they do not have the training or experience as the rest of us and it seems rather bias that they are able to respond and those of us who are trained can not. I understand about the laws on the books reguarding vol. firefighters but unfortunately they stop short because they only cover fires that one would respond to in their home state. Anyone have ony thoughts on this?? It may be that I am not interpreting the law right and if I am not would someone please advise me so.... to the person who said they are on PA Specialized Crew...... drop me a e-mail...... seems that we are both fighting the same battle with the same crew....I belong to the PA crew as well mnelson@dol.net
03/17	Alas poor Rurik, (I thought) I knew him well, Ne'er weeks went by w'out sparring joust, Methinks indeed he lurketh nearby, Spare us no more your insightful thought! HoseMonster
03/17	Some new photos of  Sikorski 64's on the guest photo page.  Ab
03/16	Hola Ab, On your <links>page at http://wildlandfire.com/links.htm could you please add a link to the new Forest Service Fire & Aviation website? http://www.fs.fed.us/fire THANKS! Done, Ab.
03/16	I have been looking for an answer to a basic question for awhile: what is the course like for Basic Fire School (Fire Guard School) that is required for employment with Forest Service and where is this training available.  A response would really help me out.  Thanks! The course is a basic introduction to fire terminology, fire suppression resources, and tools.  Contact your nearest  Forest and ask to speak to the training officer.  Many junior colleges, fire departments, and state or county agencies also offer the training.  Ab
03/16	I wanted to reply to the individual the seemed a little frustrated after they found out they did not qualify for a job.  First of all I know exactly how you feel, I too had that happen as well.  I only have four season in with the forest service but I knew deep down that a full time job is what I wanted. This was my first time applying for full time positions and have sent out over twenty-six applications between seasonal and pse positions.  So far I have been offered seven seasonal positions and today was offered a pse.  I think the big thing is you cannot afford to be picky about where you get hired.  I used to struggle with the thought of having to return to a district crew and leave the Hotshots.  Another important thing to do is to take any pse you can, get you foot in the door and get all the training you possible can while looking for the job you really want.  If you wait to long you may reach the age 35 and then have more difficulties obtaining a pse.  For the least three months I have ran my phone bill up over a hundred dollars making all the connections I could. That can be hard on the pocket book, but if you get a pse it will pay off.  I also had tough conversations with the people in the Human Resource Dept., but I had many more that were more than willing to help me out and explain the process.  Another thing I did was send out rough copies of my application to many of my previous supervisors and had them tear it apart and give some advice on things to add and take out, just don't take any offense to all of their "red" marks they put on your application, they are just trying to help you out.  Another person made a comment that you did not have to be a brown nosier to get ahead, I also believe that.  A former supervisor once told me two things that have always stuck in my head 1. " If your not big enough to do the little things, then your not big enough to do the big things" 2. "Never let those above you work harder than you." Its seems like the times that you are slacking off is when the important people see you. My biggest advice would be not to give up.  There are lots of people out there looking for jobs but the more places you apply the better chance you have a getting something.  Put your all in to getting a permanent and things will work out for you. The best of luck. CODY
03/15	Added some photos to my page finally...hopefully more to come http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/4754//firephotos.html Take care...the snow is melting fast..might be an early fire season here Jim Gobel WI Dept of Natural Resources Spooner, WI 715-635-4088
03/15	Great web site!  I read it every time I work this station. About Mike's comments on employers not letting their people go on out of state details, I work for large city FD in MD, and am on Pa's specialized crew.  My chief won't let me go on out-of-state details.  He says "I'm not paying overtime just so you can go stomp around out in the woods" but then he expects other agencies to come in and help the city when the ship hits the sand.  I've been trying to get him to let me go for 5 years now.  The only way I can go is if I arrange my own trades or take vacation time.  I'm not very high on the seniority list to take vacation time in the middle of summer, and Pa doesn't give me enough lead time to arrange trades, sign paperwork plus get to Harrisburg airport. So I still do the 1.5 mile run and go to training every year hoping I'll get to go somehow.  Thanks for letting me blow off some steam and if there's anybody else out there in my position ... you're not alone.
03/15	Hello, first I'd would like to complement you on your page, I think that it is first class and very informative. I have been working with the Forest Service since I graduated from high school and am going on my sixth season this year. I recently applied for a number of permanent positions throughout the western U.S. I contacted a forest that had a position that I had applied for to be told that I didn't make the cert. So I contacted personnel to see why I hadn't qualified. I was told that I did qualify on experience, but I didn't make the cert. Because I didn't have enough "quality experience" now exactly what the hell does that mean? I couldn't get a straight answer from personnel, but after some dispute I learned that they were looking for more detail in my resume which was completed on an outline from the job description for an engine operator. I just don't know how they are able to do something like this without even putting ksa's on their announcement. But what can I do?, I guess it's just another example of the way the Forest Service "weeds out it's applications." My time spent mentoring young firefighters and serving on job selection committees has shown me that there are several things you can do to separate yourself from the herd and get your application noticed.  Some are easy and quick, others take more time and commitment. First, you can request a sanitized copy of the person's application who was selected for the position.  Then you can compare your experience and training to see where you fall short.  The main problem I've seen while reviewing applications is each person seem's to think theirs is somehow unique, yet most of them are extremely similar.  Let's say you were applying for a Fire Equipment Operator position.  You write a couple of pages explaining your history, experience, and respond to the evaluation criteria.  Every other person applying for this position has probably had the identical training and experience you've had.  You have to have something extra, outside your normal position job duties, to add to distinguish yourself.  If you can, get some agency training in how to complete an application.  Pay some money and get a professional to help you complete your resume. If you're lucky, you have a college nearby where you can begin taking courses to help prepare yourself for future positions.  All general education classes will help and they will also count towards any future degree you decide on.  Forestry and fire science classes of course count heavily.  If there isn't a college nearby, most major universities offer remote (mail-in) classes in a wide variety of subjects.  It is always impressive to see that applicants have used their own time and money to try and advance/educate themselves.  Most appear unwilling to make the sacrifice. Become an expert in specific areas of your job position.  As an example, I know of a couple of firefighters who became experts in small engine repairs.  They attended training at the headquarters for a chainsaw company and at the Pacific-Marine pump office.  They were then able to repair all their district's saws and pumps, then expanded to offer their services (for a fee) to the entire Forest.  This increased their budget which translated into allowing them to work longer than they would have and looked very good on their later applications.  Becoming a computer expert is also a good choice, regardless, ya gotta have the skills in demand wherever you want to go. You may also actually be without adequate "quality" experience.  There can be a huge difference in opportunities provided in the same basic position depending on where you are located.  For example, on my Forest there is one engine located in a high elevation area.  They initial attack an average of 10 fires per year which normally are slow movers in red fir duff and are contained at less than 1/4 acre.  There are several other engines located across the Forest who average around 50+ initial attacks per year in a transition area between sage/juniper and ponderosa pine.  These fires can easily (many do) escape control and provide a much higher "quality" of experience for the suppression forces who fight them. The quality of supervision can also make a difference in the type of experience you gain.  If possible, try and get on a crew known for their positive and aggressive approach to their job.  Avoid crews with passive supervisors who are just collecting their paychecks and look for a crew whose leadership is always looking for ways to become more effective and efficient. It took a while for me to realize that ya just never know who is looking at you from a distance and judging how well you perform and what your potential is.  Some of these individuals may be in the background, but they can help or hinder your chances at current or future promotion and success.  There is a large network lurking in the background within every organization of people who know other people who know others.  Ya don't have to be a brown-noser to have the word get out that you are a person who deserves a shot!  Ab
03/13	As a part time employee of the NJ Forest Fire Service I take my pack test and wait till things pop in the west or anywhere else in the country. I present a form granting me permission from my fulltime employer to go to fires for the 2 or 3 week assignment. My employer has the right to say no! I have been lucky to have worked for people who understand the what I do and why.Many of my brother and sister firefighters do not have that luxury.Many people do not care about fires unless it affects them. This problem is country wide! Unless the feds, county and local governments are willing to pay for services that we provide they better learn to cut us some slack and let us do the job we love to do! GD  wtfd232@snip.net
03/13	Greetings, I'm a 21 year vet. with Fl. DOF, after reading some of the comments on daily duties all I can <say> is in l. we do it all. Fire control is #1 but my day could be spent conducting training or digging ditches, all comes with the territory. Being a state person I felt a bit lonely reading your pages. Are any more of us out there. Your site is great, glad I found it. Chrome Dome. Thanks for the kind words.  You're right about the Federal flavor here, probably cause there's so many fed firefighters around, but all are welcome to state their thoughts!  Ab.
03/12	In addition to Mike's Comments: When you say "Being on-call for a State Agency" what do you mean by that? The Volunteer Firefighter Protection Act was designed to protect volunteers in an organized volunteer or paid-call fire department. If you are on-call for a private company that provides contracted fire services for wildland suppression (Such as Alpine Wildfire, North Tree Fire, Ash Kickers or other contractors) and hold a private or public job then this law will not affect you. In essence, you are leaving a private or public paid non-fire job for another private or public paid job that is on-call and has to do with fire disasters. The law was written so those who donated thier time for public service would not be in fear of losing their regular jobs when it came time to go to "The Big One". MUSTANG 8337
03/12	I was looking at the NIFC web site today and clicked into "Fire Weather Forecasts".  I then moved on to "Outlook".  The prediction shows above average temps in March/April and May (for the west/southwest) and lower than normal precept.  As I was interpreting the data I started thinking about the "Garfield" comic strip I read in this mornings paper.  It showed Garfield watching TV and listening to the announcer broadcast the weather.  The weatherman says" And todays temperature will be between 40 degrees below zero and 200 degrees above".   Garfield then turns to the reader (i.e. me) and snips "This guy is never wrong".   What's my point????  There is no point.  Just an observation.  In addition, I had a lousy round of golf after work. Broken Tee.
03/12	To answer Mike's question regarding protection from losing a job when called to fight fires.  In California a law was passed several years ago called The Volunteer Firefighter Protection Act which prevented an employer from discriminating, demoting, or terminating a member of a community's volunteer fire department when called upon to respond to an emergency, be it fire, medical, disaster, whatever.  This law began back in 1988 during the 49'er Fire in Nevada and Placer Counties which burned over 25,000 acres and destroyed humdreds of sturctures n a heavy Urban/Interface area that theatened many small communities including the towns of Grass Valley and Nevada City. This fire was started by a transient who was trying to burn used toilet paper in the middle of August, which is the peak burning time for the area. Many volunteers left their jobs around the area and in Auburn and Sacramento to respond to try to save thier homes and their communities. This fire was a pitched battle for almost 48hrs before control and containment was made five days after the start of the fire. Besides the homes there were many large scale companies including the Grass Valley Group and Hewlett-Packard.  After many of the resources were released those firefighters who were volunteers returned to their jobs three days after the fires had started. Just about half of those people who had left their jobs to protect their community found that they had been fired outright, demoted from their positions, or punished in other ways. This began a question of whether volunteering was a good thing to do anymore. Ironically, many of the terminations came from businesses that were threatened by the fire, some of which were being defended by their own employees. Shortly after the fire these stories began to make it to the media. Several Assemblymen and State Senators from around northern California were appalled that some who volunteers their time for such a purpose would be punished this way. They came up with a bill called the Volunteer Firefighter Protection Act, which states that it is against the law to discriminate, demote, prevent promotion, or terminate anyone who is a volunteer fire or emergency service worker for taking time off to respond to an emergency that affects a community or the state. In essence, if you are called to respond on a Strike Team to Southern California for 21 days your employer cannot take adverse action against you for responding, particularly when you are necessary for that task (i.e., if you are the only driver available then you have to go). The exception to the rule is if you are employed as an emergency service worker (i.e., Firefighter, Paramedic, or Police Officer) and that is your primary job you are obligated to stay where you are. If you work as a firefighter for the Forest Service and you get the call you cannot respond, because that is your primary job. If you are a timber marker, or a tow truck driver, or an office worker you can leave your job to respond. As to are you entitled to compensation from your job while you are gone, the answer is no. You are essentially on an unpaid leave of absence until you return to your normal job. However, depending on your volunteer fire department and the nature of the call you are responding to you may be compensated through that department. For example, if you were called out on an O.E.S. (Office of Emergency Services) Strike Team the first 24 hours are free, everything after that is paid for by the state including your engine and each of your crew. If you are responding to federal or state wildland fire operations your department will be paid as an emergency resource either by billing, mail, or before you leave the incident. You will be paid by the incident, not by the primary employer. Now shortly after the media blitz about volunteers being fired from thier jobs those businesses who were cited on TV and in the newspapers began to feel the pressure from the public and from the state legislators. Many workers from the larger companies were offered thier jobs back, and some of the managers who made those decisions were demoted or fired. Some volunteers never returned to those jobs because of the way they were treated, some who worked for private companies did not return to work. Since this law has been in affect volunteer firefighters  in California have really not had to worry. But one of the responsibilities the employee or potential employee has is to inform their employer that they are volunteers, that at some point they could be called upon to respond which could cause them to leave their jobs. Many employers when informed of that will treat it the same way as when an employee has to take time off for National Guard duty. The most important thing is not to get in the face of the employer about it, but to work with him or her on it. In the last few years cases have come up to the courts regarding this law and people who have lost their jobs because they took off to fight a fire or respond to a disaster. From what I understand through the California State Firefighters Association, who helped to sponsor the law, every case that had merit has been won by the volunteer who was discriminated against, many of the settlements were return to work with backpay and damages, and advancements went ahead. The best one being a volunteer who had responded to a structure fire after leaving his work and was the only one qualified initially to take the engine, saved the home and a life on the scene, was fired when he returned. He won the case, received $50,000 in damages, backpay, court costs, and was offered his job back with a promotion. The man did not want the job back and found another job doing the same thing at twice his old salary.  Personally, I know of a new superintendent of a school district who when he found out that three of his employees were volunteers he ordered them not to respond while at work to calls, and wanted them to quit the volunteers. The three had always responded to calls while at work but would not respond when it affected school operations, of which two were bus drivers and the third was the operation director. The Operations Director informed him that when they responed they took vacation time to make up the lost hours, and their responding to fire calls would not affect the school operations, and he also presented the superintendent with a copy of the Volunteer Firefighter Protection Act. The superintendent did not like it and would request the School Board request that they resign from the fire department or resign from the school. The School Board backed the three employees all the way, and chastised the superintendent for bringing it up. As to your question regarding Type II Crews, I have questions myself as to why they are around and not called as much anymore. It seems like when large fires are burning around the nation not all the Type II, or AD Crews, are being called. It comes to mind in 1996 when fires were burning contractors and the Military were called before all of the Type II crews were used up. What is up with this? I thought the purpose of Type II crews was to have an on-call reserve ready to go within a few hours when called when large and numerous fires were going? I think that Type II crews do are a necessity when it is needed to get the Type I crews available when it comes to mop-up and other secondary operations, and that when the fish goes into the fire they are used as Type I crews. A decision needs to be made about their status and if they will be around in the future. Part of the problem may be the nicknames and rumors that go around about AD Crews such as "OC Maggots" and "Slop Crews" and some crews performance on the line. I have seen good and bad crews throughout my career and each one should be rated on their own merit. The Chico Max and U.C. Davis Crews have been some of the best O.C./A.D. crews for a time. MUSTANG 8337
03/12	In the interest of maintaining the integrity of the posts herein, encourage opposing viewpoints, and prevent a descent to personal flame wars as has been apparent in such newsgroups as alt. wildland firefighter, the editor, that would be me, reserves the right to remove (or snip) parts of messages containing personal attacks on individuals.  Please direct your comments towards the subject matter instead of your personal perception of the character of the person who wrote them.  Outright flames will be ignored.  Abercrombie
03/11	Re Rurik,<Editor's snip,> I beg to differ and so do the majority of us in r-5 and the Forest Servicetoday in "Fire Management". Talk with someone who works in the urban interface today find out what their primary duties and what constitutes the majority of their duties throughout the year. Answer is first and foremost fire readiness in training and on the ground daily!!!
03/11	first a question then a comment.....Is there any truth to the rummors that region 3 is having problems filling positions on their shot crews due to lack of Qualified persons in that region....  now a comment from someone that is not employed by the feds on a full time or as a seasonal but as a on call through a state agency. I feel it is time that legislation be introduced to pass along the same benefiets to folks who leave their full time jobs to help during a fire emergency as is given to members of the national guard and reserves. Several times in recent years the military has been used to help during fire season. Members of the reserves and the guard do not have to worry about wheather their job is in jeoprady when responding to a call-up. Unfortunately anyone who responds with a state agency is at the mercy of their employer as to wheather they can respond, and also what the consequences will be for doing so....I have approached state legislators and their answer is always in the fact that there is a law on the books to protect a employee if they respond to a fire......this is true but stops short brecause the law states that a volunteer firefighter is protected and as we all know we are compensated for our time.........anyone have any thoughts on this?   I am sure that in some eyes of the forest service and the fire service, type II handcrews are not worth having around, therefore this is not a issue that needs to be addressed......I for one can tell you this in response to those who think that, we train, take the same risks and grub the same ash as the type I crews, just not near as often, and to answer the question before its thrown up, nope, don't do it for the money, I do it for what I feel it accomplishes..it cost me money every time I respond to a call up.......... Mike
03/11	Hey Ab I have just a few comments about this firefighter issue I strongly support the FWFSA and I think what they are doing is very good,now to all those who disagree with what they are trying to do when the time comes when we are finally recognized as firefighters are you people going to say "I'm an Eco Manager so you don't have to increase my wage" or "It's about time the classified us as firefighters"even though you sat on your ass and debated about the issue and did nothing to support the FWFSA.What is it going to hurt to give a little support to them?Now about the macho attitude of the hotshot crews I have heard that from engine crews,heliattack,and the rookies that wine and bitch.May be we do have a macho attitude I personally think of it as pride for what I have done.If you guys saw and did some of the things that we do you would see what I mean,like when you go down into a hole that no engine crews or oc crews want to go down there and give you a hand.Now I'm not Shitting on any one every body is needed on a fire.  Now about the fire people not wanting to do any work,I haven't been in the fire world as long as all you guys but I hear the stories about how you could work all year round if you wanted,well in this day and age you can't do that because when you get laid off it means there are no more fires,or no money to fund your crew,and your 1039 is maxed out.  Anyhow Ab we are all on the same side and we all want better pay for what we do but I think it's been long over due for us fire folks.Once again Ab your site Kicks Ass and to all the people out there stay safe this upcoming season.. Madhatter
03/10	For the person who was looking for the "plowsites" ...Im not sure what you are looking for. Here is the link for Mathis plow company who makes the fesco fire plow. If anyone knows of any others Id be interested also.  http://www.mathisplow.com/Default.htm  On the Rurik issue...Ive been biting my lip big time on this. While I have to admit some of his comments made him sound like a pencil pushing geek, I think some of the flamers should go back and read his posts (as I have) and actually read them this time. He is pretty much on the mark.  Example, he said "The FWFSA won't make you a professional anymore than the Teamsters Union  'professionalized' beer deliverymen."  I'd sure like to figure out how someone read that as comparing beer delivery folks to fire fighters. All it said to me was the obvious, just cause you belong to a  certain organization does not make you a professional, that has to come with individual attitude and performance.  I would have to eco Gordons comments.  I spent 7 years in R5 all on a shot crew, and I would have to say the one thing I miss the least is the macho elitist attitude (same reason I couldn't stand the USMC).  Times change as does everything else. If something is not right you need to stand up, do what right and fight constructively. Not whine, bitch and moan, that just puts everyone on the defensive.  As to some of the work ethic comments, I have seen some of the same things that Gordon has. Sadly there is some of that but I have to believe it is rare.  For some of the flamers, what do you think "professional" firefighters do when they are not on fires? ..sit around watching the tube? ...NOT! ..they are doing the presuppression, prevention, forestry or what ever else that needs to be done.  It is a rare location that can justify a fire position year round with no other duties.  Well, I guess thats enough of my babbling...  pulaski
03/10	Jeffszo00tv has hit the nail on the head. There are thousands of Federal Firefighters out there, most of which are in the same boat. The FWFSA is there trying to help all of us. Why have so few joined? The FWFSA needs the membership numbers to help have a bigger voice in Washington. Next week, the FWFSA's President will be in Washington, D.C., knocking on doors to help make YOUR pay and benefits better. In the words of Ab "Stop Lurking- Join In!"  ~Tonka         By the way the pay cap now kicks in at the GS-8 step 7 level (or equivilent). The Association is trying to fix this inequity right now. Please Help
03/09	In "99" we are @ a crossroad. We can promote change and be a part of it or pay  lip service for years to come. We need to put out the word to the proposedly  seven thousand employees in Region 5 to affect change for the better. Support  FWFSA with your money and your voice.  FWFSA says they are 266 members strong in the federal government, in respect to member involvement. To me that is a  sad testimony! If we are a forest service family and we voice the same ideals FWFSA supports then why are we not seven thousand strong? Like IAFF, that  would produce a loud voice on our behalf with results. The majority of us  support the same ideals. "Formal due recognition as firefighters, and due  respect and fair treatment as our counterparts and fellow Forest Service  professionals!" But we cannot get there by letting change affecting us, and  sitting on our rear ends. We need to be proactive and tell everyone around us  and associated with us, the opportunity has never been greater who we are and  what we've done for the past 15 years or more! IF they don't already know. If  we are serious and care we will tell everyone about this page and about  FWFSA!!! These are our issues that affect us and have affected us for too  long! Question is are we willing to step out on our own behalf and share what  we percieve as truth with ourselves to get equality and recognition, and with  our co-workers who percieve our mission as the same status quo mission as 20  years ago "ECO MANAGEMENT" Or Rurik's point of view. I really hope not!  Our mentality can't be to give up and go along with the forester mentality  that has persisted for way too long. It's time too wake up and speak as a  whole together we want change that reflects us today! Not what fit's the  forester's agenda's. We have put up with this mentality for far too long.  There is no excuse for our own inactionsto act out on our own behalf!!!  We  have plugged our money into NFFE for  far too long they cannot possibly  represent federal wildland firefighters and their concerns. Afterall they have  not as yet addresesed us as a whole correct? Answer is put your bi-weekly  deductions where they will speak the loudest that is , FWFSA in support of our own ideals . Until we do that in R-5 and across the nation we we always be slave labor! Jeffszo00tv!!! (Hopefully we will pass the word around that FWFSA and IAFF need our support and dollars now or forever hold our peace so tell a  friend please!!!)
03/09	A glaring example of a serious problem in R5 is the current openings for the AFEO positions on the  Angeles, Sequoia and LP,  who would want a job only guaranteed for 6 months,  where is the truth in advertising?  the jobs are advertised as GS-6,  but why do they post the annual salary as the "full" annual salary of say a PFT? they arent getting any bites now, what would happen if they said, come work here, be unemployed and on welfare, for 6 months, just try and buy a $200,000 home making less than 13,000 a year,  you would be laughed out of a bank!  any wonder why the southern cal forests cant fill these positions?   it doesnt take a rocket scientist.......  in 94 the LP started cutting  their FEO positions to 18/8 tours after a long history of them being perm full time, I was one of the  lucky ones who got the shaft there,  since then I have moved to a forest where I am PFT, but even though I live in the same county as one of the districts on the LP, my forest is supposedly out of the influence of the special pay act for the So Cal forests that gets them the additional 19%, so still I just fall short of anything substantial and livable. I understand the axe has fallen everywhere, that to meet to pay of the folks there now, they have to cut the tours below the supervisory level, because basically, there isnt enough gold in the bag to begin with. I know, I know, I am thankful for what I got, but when I am working side by side with other agencies doing the SAME EXACT JOB. it makes me wonder if I should have opted for the yellow suit or the dress blues. But to make a declaration, I love  the work I do, I like the Forest Service, I especially like the fire folks I have met over the years, if I was  in a jam, I know those folks would be there for me, even if they were "off the clock"..... good site Ab,            thanks for letting me vent.. Sting :)
03/09	Hey Abe, hope things are going good. I am looking for a little help. I  am looking for firefighter clip art. Wildland firefighter stuff that  is. I did the basic search and found very little. Was just wondering  if any of my fellow ground pounders had any they could send? I would  appreciate anything i can get my hands on. My address is  dripptorch@yahoo.com  Thanks in advance Abe. Take care and be safe, it's almost that time.  dripptorch
03/08	Hey, Ab, nice flurry lately. <grin> Nothin' like a pending season and a  Southwest crackling like crispy critters to put everybody on edge ... In the interests of lightening up and giving everyone something else to  DO for a bit, check this out: USFS Fire & Aviation is now online at  www.fs.fed.us/fire/ and there's a little something for everybody. Check out the airtanker base  directory, and the links page, and the 10&18 online (in English y  Espa&ntilde;ol). Any minute here I'll have the crew pages for the  Redmond Hotshots online, and guess what's after that? A website for  every single hotshot crew, courtesy of the USFS. (Oughta keep ME outta  trouble for a while, too!)  Feedback welcome!!!  -- Kelly Andersson
03/08	i`d just like to mention a few things about wildland fire...and about the agency that i work for...I``ve worked for the forest service for 10 years been on helicpoters,hotshots and engine crews and have just been picked up for the JAC program....WOW big accomplishment on my behave and for anyone else in my boots...the one thing that is upsetting is FMO`s,AFMO`s and supervisers kids that get picked up that have no time in but get a slot in the so called JAC program...Are these kids really up for the job...NO....THERE DADDIES got them the job then you don`t see  them but a few seasons then they move on to bigger and better things....why s that...their not cut out for the hard and enduring tasks at hand.....Its sad the money wasted but who cares that we the forest service is it debt..that budgets aren`t met...that temps have to suffer...They call US FIREFIGHTERS ...but get payed forestry technicain wages...we the back bone...are getting ripped off by our so called Government...How is it that local and state Fire Departments get payed higher wages better retirement on local and state taxes?...thats a big question of mine.....so to end it they think we`re the ones getting the favor of having these jobs busting tail...  The first part of your mesage about "daddies" is called nepotism, it exists (although theroetically illegal in the US) in every employment arena of the world.  Ab
03/07	I would to continue the thread on Rurik's discussion.  I have read of his postings going back several months and see nothing  that would justify the venom being hurled.  He perhaps chose some harsh  words to express his views, but they are not in error.  I started in South Zone R5 on a model 58 engine as an 18 year old 'fire  control aid' (special series?) more years ago than I care to remember.  I have progressed up through various jobs in helitack, engines,  hotshots, fuels, prevention, back to helitack, hotshot foreman  (pre-captain days) and finally to my current position.  As a pup crewman  I worked 3 years straight as a temporary employee without ever being laid off.  I worked in recreation and range in the off season.  After I  received a coveted 13/13 position, I worked year around without ever  being laid off, because I was willing to do any work in the off season  for anyone.  I built fence, marked timber, built trail, TSI work, even  file and mail clerk to stay on the payroll.  Most of my coworkers did  likewise.  No one got laid off unless they wanted to.  A different trend is occurring now.  On my district we have two captains  who refuse to do any project work.  They are "firefighters, not project  crews."  One even refuses to mow the station lawn.  These captains are absolutely clueless as to why their crews are the  last to be hired in the Spring and first to be laid off in the Fall.  Meanwhile the Fuels Officer pays weekend overtime to the timber,  wildlife and trail crews to do his slash burning.  When I asked why the  fire temps were laid off, and use the other crews to do his fuels work  the Fuels Officer replied "I need to get the work done!"  There was a time when the other functions (timber, wildlife, range,  recreation, etc) gave money to the FMO to finance the fire crews, and  the crews were expected to do project work in return.  The past several  years this extra funding source has disappeared because the FMO took the  money, and the work did not get done.  The 13/13's used to work in the  off season for the other shops also.  Not any more.  A common reason  given is "Fire people don't know how to work anymore".  I like to think  this is a local situation and not reflective of Fire Management as a  whole, but after reading some of the recent postings I am not so sure.  So you respondents can keep your elite macho bullshit and special  series.  You can be the most professional firefighter in the  unemployment line.  I'll stay a 'mere' 462 Forestry Technician and make  more money in the long run and enjoy doing it.  Gordon  Good response Gordon.  I haven't seen the prima-donna attitude of your two Captains be allowed to surface in my part of the country, but believe it could happen.  I was a little surprised at the vehemence directed towards Rurik and actually deleted a few without posting them.  For those who missed them, Rurik's prior posts indicated he shares many of the same thoughts and feelings towards fire as those who chose to blast him.  I try to limit the posts to those with a valid point whether I personally agree with them or not and some were just flames attacking Rurik's character.  While I agree that fire personnel must have and maintain a well rounded education and keep current on all forest resource areas in order to transact daily usiness with other resource departments, the title of the person they normally work under begins with Fire, not Resources, i.e. Fire Mangement Officer.  And, this IS and will remain the Wildland Firefighters Page.  Not the resource, fuels, wildlife, or o'logists page.  All are encouraged to post, but if ya start attacking firefighters you're probably gunna get burnt!  Ab
03/07	Can you give any ideas on where to find any plowsites. thanks  Sorry, readers?  Ab
03/07	Check out our new web site and maybe you could link it to your page.  We'll  be adding a "link" page soon and promise to put yours there!  www.WildlandFireAlliance.com Thanks!
03/05	Like I said Ruik (what the hell is a Ruik anyway?) go back in the office.  Your way out of your league.  Groundpig..and proud of it.  Actually, it's Rurik.  A quick look at Alta Vista's search engine will give some clues from whence the name came.  Here's one: http://coral.bucknell.edu/departments/russian/facts/rurik.html  Ab.
03/05	Well Ab just thought I would send my thoughts on Ruriks comments.  Rurik is living proof a college education doesn't move a person past  being ignorant. I'm not sure how he/she developed the theories of what  a firefighters duties consist of but ignorance plays a big part in it.  We are not considered professionals by the agency because so called  "professionals" like you hold the bag, or should I say purse strings.  I personaly could care less if you or any other ignorant bastard out there considers me a professional. I do hope you open your eyes to  what we really contribute to the Agency. If you watch the leaders  among the fire community I.E. Supts, Captains, FMO's and the likes you  will see the definition of the word "PROFESSIONAL" standing in front  of you. Get a clue and move on or we will run over the top of you.  dripptorch@yahoo.com   P.S. Keep up the good work Ab, what your doing if fantastic.  Thanks driptorch, I heard this web site was discussed at an FMO meeting last week.  Must be doing something right. . . or wrong!  Abercrombie
03/04	THANKS AB!!!  For aiding and fostering support to air the truth!!! Helping  promote a more efficient and professional agency into our future. jeffsz00tv
03/04	I have been following the "firestorm" of comments that Mr. Rurik has ignited  by his biased and narrow viewpoint.  In Mustangs latest posting he pretty much  covered all points of the compass and I tend to agree with him.  One thing  that Mustang did not touch on and it a sore point with me  is the use of  "Resource Advisors."  These are mostly non-fire type OLOGESTS who have almost  a magical control over the IC.  These "advisors" are assigned to a fire to  insure that agency land use policy is adhered to.  But, I have seen some  things that have made me so mad I could not see straight.  When will the  abuses of the crews stop, when will the fire organization tell these idiots  that they cannot put a crew in danger because they want to save a snag for the  birds?  Some of the things that I have seen: Sending crews back over miles of line to  cut stumps an additional 2 inches lower to make them flush with the ground, so  they will not be so visible......which would be OK if the fire line was near an area that was used by the public, but this was in the middle of the  wilderness and had zero public use!  In R-5; RA's ordering hundreds of pounds  of native wildflower seed at $15 plus a pound for slope stabilization, instead  of sterile grass seed (it got stopped when the word leaked out).  An RA insisting that only hand saws be used to cut out hung up snags leaning over  the main route into the fire.  The area was classified as a "transition zone"  to the wilderness and was within a half mile of a major highway.  Crews had to  risk injury to get the snags down so the crews could safely use the trail.  RA  insisting that wilderness pounds/lakes could not be used for dipping as it  might upset a "balance" in the ecosystem.  Made the ships fly 10/15 minute  round trips for water, increasing the cost of suppression.  Or has any one  seen a RA require work that might benefit a local project and have the fire  pay for it?  Any one have any other examples?  WPhires
03/04	rurik, "truth always perseveres the lie!!!  Change is constant in the agency,  a new day is dawning.  Swallow the truth because it's already here.  if you  can't support the mission, then certainly you don't belong. Next time you run  into a hotshot sup. Tell that person that their only expertise from your  standpoint is manual labor that you know everything about prescribed fire and  how to manage it, and as far as your concerned their input into the process is  the least important factor in accomplishing agency objectives. That you can  hire anyone to do what we do on a day to day basis and that it takes little to  no professional expertise! Then see how far your objectives get beyond your  flip chart. Realize without us and our useless fire skills you will lose the  agency and your eco management lie, will swallow you and lose what has helped  pay you as a professional since you began your career. Afterall if fire is  gone and goes to where it is being called into the future you will most  certainly be left as an administrator out there contracting us or someone else  for a lot more money and lot more cost to save your precious ego. Start  treating others with their due respect and help support and carry this agency  ahead strong and as a team into the future or help tear down everything we are  today and will be tomorrow. We are as much an asset as you and your education.  To accomplish objectives it doesn't take only what you have to offer at the  end of the day that helps get the job done. If you deserve all the credit and  you think that we  just build glorified birdbaths and clean camgrounds then  you really believe the "lie".  jeffsz00tv
03/04	Even though I am in full time fire, I made an active effort to work for other areas and get a broader understanding of the full mission of the forest service. It wasnt because I felt that fire was somehow unfulfilling, It was because I was unsure about the future of a fire career (a GS-4 13/13)  being married and a father of 2 kids.  Well, I hung in there and now I am full time. Look at all the good folks we lost to CDF or other departments because of the pay disparity. On a forest I worked for previously, a good percentage of the folks we did mutual aid with (a county wildland department) were all ex FS!  why?  because they got the training and experience and moved on to better pay. Now if we had parity with these other agencies, there would be a lot more of these folks working for us hands down,            WHY?  because when it comes to wildland fire, we are the best, we go national, I have been to the 4 corners of the country fighting fire while our cohorts with CDF or another dept drool because their agencies need them locally. There are the few who get involved with teams, but in general the average firefighter basically stays behind. One of the perks of the FS is the travel, its not just a job its an adventure. But remember when we get there, its all the same, the same hazards, the same risk. I could die as easily in the palmetto galberry of Florida as in the brushfields of Southern Cal.  Times are changing, we are a fire department now, if not, why do I have an SCBA?  why am I trained in Haz Mat operational?   Medical First Responder?  Urban Intermix?   We do the same things except structure fires, but that is not far away. When some poor grandma is still inside as a fire is starting to burn her house because she didnt have anyone to help evacuate her, you bet your reloscope I am gonna take a hose line in and save her. Thus the precedent is set!     peace, Sting
03/03	Good thread running here on Rurik's slanted viewpoint Ab!  I'd like to offer my perspective on a couple of items yet to be explored.  Rurik states, "There is a widely held belief in many FS upper management that  fire is only for the uneducated and unskilled".  I'm afraid I don't see it that way and consider Rurik's presumptuous comment a narrowly held viewpoint.  Contrarily, from my observations, when a fire manager speaks in any given meeting or in a committee, on most any given subject, there is immediate respect and attention paid.  There are, have been, and will be those who feel the way Rurik seems to, but if you do a little investigating you will usually find one or two reasons why they carry a grudge against the fire organization.  There has usually been some misunderstanding or conflict in the past, perhaps the "rersource manager" lost funding for a pet project they blamed on fire.  Some of the most bitter, or vocal anti-fire people I've seen are actually ex-fire personnel who were drummed out of the fire service and accepted a less demanding  job elsewhere in the organization.  Would you fit one of these catagories Rurik?  The second issue concerns Rurik's demand that fire personnel conform to the forester's mentality.  That they join and support forester's organizations, become a "team" member.  I propose to Rurik that fire personnel spend a far greater amount of their time working outside their position descriptions in other department areas doing non-fire projects than the other departments spend doing fire related work or training.  This cross discipline experience provides the fire personnel a far wider range of resource knowledge than that exibited by most non-fire employees in specialized positions and in my opinion makes them an extremely more valuable employee.  While talking with a fire dispatch manager recently I was updated on just how hard it is to get non-fire people to support the large fire organization.  There is "lip-service" given each pre-fire season by the Chief, Forest Supervisors, and District Rangers on how fire is the number one priority.  However, when the phone rings at 0200 in the morning there just aren't many non-fire folks left who will go out of their way to perform the vital logistical and administrative support the fire demands.  The dispatch manager stated as just one example that last year he was forced to turn down a radio operator positon after contacting over twenty qualified people to take the assignment.  They all gave a reason for being unable to go, some legitimate, some feeble, but the most prevelant was, "My boss won't let me go."  Where is this "TEAM" of which you speak Rurik?  Are teams only considered important when it benefits your department? Or when you find yourself lacking employees or finances to accomplish YOUR mission?  Ramble
03/03	Just found your web page.  cool site.  I have a video from the 98 fire  season I took mostly in the salt lake dist. west desert.  some cool air  shows and initial attack with engines.  Would like to trade for the same or  for t-shirts, hats etc.  if interested contact me at shooter@aros.net  keep one foot in the black  shooter
03/03	Great web!  I am a structural and wildland firefighter.  I hope that some day the wildland firefighters will receive the praise and the pay that they are due.  Wildland firefighters are just like any other proffesion, some are good and some are bad, I have met a few that are smarter than hell and some that don't know a pulaski from a hoe.  hope you all get your just reward.                                            K.J.
03/03	Mr. Rurick,     With all due respect! Lead, Folow, or get the hell out of the  way. A side note if you will, I signed up for the Forest Service because I  believe in Prescribed Fire, brushing roads, fuelbreaks, educating publin in  prevention etc. I cannot however buy into your personal viewpoint that I am an  ECO MANAGER. Maybe you are then go into resources. I do not tell  archeoligists, bioligists, rangers, how to do their NEPA documentation when it  comes to prescribed fire. However we have as great or greater responsibility  into the future as Fire Managers to give professional advice in how to  accomplish our objectives, on top of our suppression and all risk  responsibilities. When all is said and done, afterall who is tasked with  putting the match to the ground? Answer is fire folks. It is a slap in my face to hear people like you telling me that I'm not a proffessional too. IF were not then you don't need fire to do your damn projects. In addition since when  have "ECO MANAGERS" had to maintain the all risk training standards that we do  today!!! If you are not educated to this degree about our standards then I'm  sorry you persist to give your pre-historic viewpoints. Let me give a little  perspective on what I mean. We respond to wildfires, EMS, Structure, hazardous  materials, Vehicle fires that we train and prepare for beside ECO MANAGEMENT,  that's @ least 85% of our dutiesnot just "ECO MANAGEMENT."  While on these  incidents not only are we proffessionals that lead and manage these campaign  fires in the interface, but we are off the clock the minute we are in fire  camp unlike all of our counterparts. So then we are slave labor and tell me  Mr. Rurick is that a double standard or what? If you still disagree then maybe  you should like someone else advised get out into the field once in a while. Times have changed brother, obviously you have not! If you think that not  giving fire folks the same latitude as professionals to make decisions on your  projects or on wildfires then you disagree with the ICS system and your  hypocritical and it comes across as the same agenda as 20 years ago as  foresters are looking out for foresters at all costs to the agency. That  viewpoint will not lead into the future but jeopardize the agency's future and  put it at risk. Meaning without the support of the fire folks and their  expertise which today consitutes 3/4 of the entire workforce you may cease  to  exist and you might be an ECO MANAGER IN AN CONTRACT AGENCY!!! If you don't  believe that then I suggest you view the FWFSA page and look which direction  fire is headed. If you think that is not reality I suggest you write your  congressman then the White House. Cause we will be classified as  proffessionals with or without the agency's support, regardless of what you think. Hopefully we will maintain support and keep the great outfit together  that we signed up for and educate public, cooperators and yourself how  professional we really are. I look forward to your comments again!!! jeffsz00tv
03/02	I have to agree with you Mr Rurik on the professional integrity, we should be the ones setting the example, because we set the standard for wildland fire management. I shake my head at the lack of professionalism we occasionally do exhibit, it sets us back decades, maybe it has to do with the fact that our pay is so far behind the other agencies. Now we can suck it up and say we will do more with less, but we have been doing it for so long it gets tiring, and we keep getting less!!! Just remember we are all on the same side. I will support any organization that wants to help us get what we deserve, our own series, better pay and a better pool of potential future wildland fire managers.  you have valid points Mr Rurik, but remember, seek first to understand, then to be understood.  peace, Sting
03/01	Mr. Rurik   I take how you compare us firefighters to beer deliverymen as a slap  in the face,talk about your disparaging comments.Bye the way the last  time I checked the tax payer and Congress were the ones who pay our  bill,so we don't have to kiss the Land  managers,biologists,hydrologist, and your ass to get recognition.It  doesn't really matter what you GS fantastics or the Society of  American Foresters think of us because you do not have our best interest in mind.What are you afraid of that if we get classified as  firefighters we will not be around to dump your trash.One other thing  I do not recall myself or groundpig bad mouthing any one.   Groundpig was right go back to your air condition office eat some  donuts and write a memo,leave the firefighting to the ones who now how  to get the job done..Madhatter  PS Ab I like your site you have done a pretty cool job of it.