Yes what we do isn't as safe as siting behind a desk but a few small precautions can go along way.In my neck of the woods we do need a common word to clear the air. With the local fire departments MAYDAY is part of our Sops. With the state I had made the suggestion but was told that it wasn't needed. In my station alone we have 9 EMTs and 2 Paramedics plus the equipment to go with it.

The sorry exuse of a EMS kit the feds give us is a joke. At least put in a CPR mask! As I get higher up in the ranks in my fire  department, safety becomes my number one concern. Im not preaching doom and gloom, its just looking at what cause injury ( or death ) and looking for a way to prevent it or if something does happen what can be done to minimize the damage.

BC Davis

I think that MAYDAY is a universal distress call.... If I heard that on the radio, on the east, south, or west coast, i'd listen up! 

I started the training for Medical Unit Leader, and realized that i'd wind up stuck in camp, and wanted no part of that (I'm a firefighter first!).  However,  as the EMT on the crew who is also a registered nurse, I was usually the go to guy in the crew/strike team/etc who would act as the "doc". 

I know that the M.U.L. has to have different resources and their contacts as part of the medical plan (get out an old incident plan and check it out).  Usually, part of that is helicoptor resources, that would usually come into play in any kind of evac of injured.  We are dealing in remote wilderness  areas, so that it's either helo evac, or a long hike out.  I was involved in a few evacs in my home state, and we had to construct a litter out of what was  at hand, yellow shirts, saplings, etc. 

I was in Blackwell, and have a picture of a "wildland fire ambulance"....aka suburban with a star-of-life on the side. 

Basically, your screwed if you suffer a trauma or an arrest, even if there is a helospot a couple of hundred feet away.  By the time, you get a mission  flown to you, and you are airlifted to a medical center, it would probably be to late.  But hey, if you didn't know this was dangerous work, then we have  a problem.  Sucks, huh? 

I've talked with some counterparts from out west, and there is some discussion of having fireline medics, but they can pump all the fluids and drugs  into you, but without ED/ICU support, it's only buying time.  Not to mention, that most accidents happen when the fire is small, and there is no  organized "camp" or medical unit. 

The practicality of having iv fluids and drugs on hand in the field is a nightmare.  They have to stay at a certain temp (usually less than 85 degrees),  and are heavy/bulky.  For most arrests what you need in the first 10 minutes is a defib, and I know I am not carrying that freaking thing in the woods. 

I think the answer is to keep pushing for arduous physical fitness testing, a healthy lifestyle, and having EMT's (preferably Paramedics) on the fireline.  I would even go so far as to make it required to have at least one EMT-B on a crew.  That EMT needs to have some wildland ems training, and be able  to recognize problems before they occur (so should crew boss, and assorted overhead). 

When i'm the EMT, and i'm out with some green firefighters, i'll check feet every morning (physical inspection, and no it's not optional).  Not fun, but it  saves me trouble trying to find a ride out for that greenhorn with the new Whites and chopped meat for feet (i've had to do that more than once).  When the crew first gets together (especially type II crews who aren't together all season), the EMT has to chat with each person and find out if they  have allergies, medications, etc. 

One time a kid told me he was on prozac.... but that's another story 

Doc Moleskin

In the south west helicopters have also helped us out 
drastically. In our area we are very mountainous and 
hilly(sp?). Therefore access problems are always a problem. 
The Sherrif's office in our county has several heli's who 
often assist us with not only water drops and 
equipment/personnel schuttles; but EMS rescues. If we have 
our patients stabilized, transport can be greatly expidited 
because precious seconds aren't wasted while the recsue/ambo 
or bird's on the ground waiting. 

What do you think?   mp

Most local departments in my coverage area are lucky they can afford NFPA/OSHA approved structural gear, let alone nomex wildland gear.  So, we wind up with most wearing jeans, half boots, helmets, and gloves.  Usually they wear there bunker pants.  They do the quick knockdown and then scoot out real quick.  Mostly they are glad to hand off the fun stuff like mop-up, etc.  Just this afternoon I went out on a 1/2 acre fire deep in the woods and we were dealing with a lot of ground fire.  In this heat and humidity we're seeing, it will wipe out guys very quickly if they wore their full turnouts. 

On the major fires, they won't hike in, or bring their brush units into the woods.  This is especially true in the southern portion of the state, where more than one company has lost their brush unit to the red devil, and unfortunately, they've also lost men.  It's unfortunate that like everywhere else in this country it's not until we lose people that changes occur. 

If we don't get some rain on the east coast (hurricane type rain) we're gonna have a major summer fire season.  I know that my state will not be making crews/engines available for out-of-state assignment like they thought on July 1.... 

Doctor Moleskin

Thanks 
David Wark 
Genoa TWP. Fire

sounds like ur dept has their head on straight. My dept just bought a 
brand spankin new F350, and put a 250 gal tank and a small engine on it 
and called it a brush truck. The had it delivered to the fire station, 
and to make a long story short, i had to stop by after work and show 
them how to get the pump runnin, draft H20, ....my chief was pretty 
embarrased....but we are better prepared, 2 1/2 inch hose on a brush 
fire is a bit much... 

as far as the nomex goes, some people have it. I earned mine..some 
people stole theirs... and most dont give a shit, they opt for the more 
sporty look of shorts, tennis shoes and a "Big Johnson" t-shirt. The 
guys that pull these kina stunts always wonder why the FS wont pick them 
up as AD when they take over the fire....These guys know better, i 
taught the wildfire section for them in Firefighter I...i know they know 
better. I live at one end of my service area, and the dept is on the 
other end, so i carry my turnouts and my wildland gear in my toolbox. On 
a brush fire, the first thing that goes on is the green and yellow.I 
dont know if i have the authority to hire these guys, but i would if 
they followed the rules, they're good. 

and to end on a positive note, Every single person, (even the girl on 
the JR. dept) has successfully completed Firefighter I!! 

ZKP

I'm sure it has not helped that the Dept. of Interior took a 15% cut and 
Department of Agriculture took a 33% cut in fire. 

I was blowing off steam because I keep seing those who don't toe the 
line or become the boss's drinking buddy continue to get appointments. I 
will keep trying, but in this era of downsizing its getting harder.

AE-MOC4445 

I think your estmate of the DOA cut may be overstated, the final budget (at least in R5) was about the same as last year.  The resulting deficit each forest faced stemed from indirect costs, such as personnel step increases, administrative rakeoff, vehicle costs, etc.  Ab.

In my state (NJ) the terrain varies considerably.  In the southern portion the veg is dominated by Pinelands, and they see large fires (>1000acres) and use a combination of tractor plows, dozers, and engines. 

In the northern part we are mostly hardwoods with leaf litter fire, and consider a large fire to be >100 acres. This is because the amount of ground fire and mop-up takes up a considerable amount of manpower and time because our method of attack is handcrews and aircraft. 

The difference in vegetation and terrain is dramatic in such a small state.  NJ has 75 full time Section Wardens (100,000acres) and a part-time staff of 249 district wardens (15,000acres) and 1000 crew members.  We utilize a fleet of a 138 specialized fire attack vehicles (type 6 engines and 1000gal tenders), helicopters (huey and jetranger), and contracted ag-cat fixed wing bi-planes.  We are also lucky to have a network of 21 observation towers that are 
manned by full-time observers. 

I guess we're lucky that by law the Forest Fire Service has jurisdiction over all wildfires. This is helpful because we do deal with a lot of volunteers, and prevents a lot of problems.  We have a very active Fire Prevention Program, and a hazard reduction program that includes prescribed burning operations (10,000-15,000 acres annually), and fireline maintenance program. 

People don't think of NJ as being an urban state, however, the state is nearly 40% commercial forest land, 13% parks/recreation/watersheds, making roughly 53% or more than half of the state forest or open land.   We average 1500 wildland fires, with approx 7,000 acres a year.  A total of 3.1 million acres. 

NJ sends resources out-of-state as our fire seasons are early spring and late fall, which works well with the summer fire season seen out west.  Last year we sent resources (Engine strike teams) to Florida and Texas.  We've also sent out Type II hand crews in the past.

pulaski

       We have had the same problems regarding VFD firefighters dumping their turnout gear for whatever they happen to be  wearing to fight wildland fire.  The question i would ask..is there an alternative to their turnout gear? ..If not there should be. I would be very surprised if there isnt grant or cost share monies availaible to assist VFD's with nomex clothing. Nothing drains you faster than trying to fight wild fire with bulky turnout gear. You are probably safer (percentage wise) without it if you want to count heat exhaustion etc in with injuries.  If you havent been notified of grant programs, contact your state forestry/natural resource agency or local federal land agency.  There are federal monies availaible especially for this purpose (although the funds have dwindled in the last few years) Typically your state agency handles these. 

       On the vol dept I am a member of, everyone has nomex coveralls in their gear locker along with their normal structural gear. If the call is for wildland fire they simply put on the nomex and pitch the turnouts in the truck just in case. 

       pulaski

Good to hear more eastern feeds and I would like to hear more about how the vols & state agencies interface.  The federal gov't seems to be trying to reduce it's wildland suppression responsibilities to the western states as evidenced through the continued gradual decrease in funding.  At the same time they ignore the resulting increases in structures and  property lost each fire season (see "statistics" mentioned somewhere in the archives).  As we "feds" continue to disappear, alternative protection agreements need to be explored and instituted as the responsibility for the safety of the western dwellers and their properties continue to rely more heavily on the states.  I know, there are always "private contractors" and I'm sure the states won't mind assuming the training and maintenance of these folks annual training, certifications, legal requirements, contracts, and of course paying them for their services.  Ab

i'll echo mikes comments about eastern fires initial attack. they send 
us (yes, im on the vol fire department) out to initially attack a fire. 
Here comes another negative.. half the guys on my department leave their 
turnouts on the fire truck, go out there in shorts and T-shirts. What 
ive come to do is my pager goes off, then i go the the work center 
instead of the fire department, and get the jolly green giant, and get 
on the radio and get the word out. 
for the record, im in VA. 

be safe, i dropped a nice big rock on my fingers today, hurts to type... 
ZKP

Where the terrain and ground type permit it the tractor plow is the cats meow and cut the occurrence of large fires to virtually nil.  Im my state organized state suppression (slim as it was) started in the 1910's and major fires (over 1000 ac or so) were an annual occurrence especially in the early 30's. By 1935 or so tractor plows were on scene throughout the state where the state had responsibility. Since then a incidents of that size (except large marsh fires) only happens about every 15 years or so. When they do occur they are typically a one day event of up to 10-20,000 acres. With the relatively level terrain we get a line around it before the second burning period (knock on wood). 

In my state (and I assume most eastern states) the fire organization is very small as hand crews are not really needed as they are out west. Consequently competition for full time jobs are fairly fierce. And since there is no seasonal type employment it is difficult for folks to get a foot in the door as you can out west. 

Since the fire season is typically short even the front line fire positions have a lot of other responsibilities in the forestry field. 

Well, thats enough for now.. 

Pulaski 

Roscoe, those six comments you put were very good. The problem is, I 
have do exactly what you have suggested, for each and every one, with 
the exception of working for CDF. I tested for that agency years ago and 
came out very very high on the scores, but a guy I worked with in CDF 
had a very significantly lower score and received a score in the high 
70's (third rank) and was hired for a permanent job in Riverside County 
CDF, not because of his abilities, but who he knew, and who his family 
was. Over the last 12 years I have followed that advise about seeking 
out training, I've paid for it myself, I've used leave, sick time, 
swapped, and basically bankrupted myself to meet all those training 
requirements or as close as I can get that those forests or agencies 
want. But when I show "Hey, this winter I went through the State's (CA) 
Engine Operator Academy on my own, because you would not sponsor or 
recommend me, and I did the training you wanted, and I went to S-290 
through CDF, and I have I-200 from a few years ago, all I need is the 
the paperwork academy and single resource leader, can you help me out 
with the rest?" And the comeback is "Well, you did work hard to get the 
training, and you spent a lot of time an money for it. But, we don't 
know who did your training, even through it was done through, and it was 
not done through the Region 5 Forest Service, or even BLM, so we won't 
acccept it to help you move up. Sorry you lost out on the crew trip to 
Mexico this winter." 

I have done basically all of what you, and Abercombie, Sting, Ground 
Pig, and others on this site have suggested. How do you overcome this 
type of problem? How do you say to your boss "You told me to get these 
courses to move up, but you wouldn't sponsor me through the agency, when 
I tried to get into the FS class offered I was told that you had to 
sponsor me, the sponsor had to pay for it, and there were no acceptions. 
When I find an ALTERNATIVE way to get the training you asked for and 
commit to the time and costs to accomplish it, you say its not good 
enough! Are you blowing smoke up my ass when you make a suggestion that 
involves a significant and costly commitment that will help me move up, 
but when I do as you ask you throw it back in my face! I made the 
committment you suggested or asked for, and I let you know I did it, and 
you say 'Oh, thats nice. What do you want from me?' ". What can you say 
or do to show this person you are committed, you want to move up, but 
they won't budge to help you, or play the game "Well, we normally don't 
recommend people for the JAC program unless they have worked for our 
forest for at least four seasons" or "We know you've work at other 
forests and agencies for several seasons, but we don't know you that 
well, and you may get into the JAC program through us and then go 
somewhere else, and we have lost time and money on you." 

Stop working at outstations. How do you suggest I get to a busy station 
if the out station is the only place they will hire you for the season, 
and when you come back the next season they say "We don't have any room 
there this year, but your re-hire is back at where you worked last 
year." I have tried to get to that busy station through hard work and no 
complaining, going the extra mile by making sure the equipment is ready, 
arriving early and staying late, not getting thrown out of the bars or 
getting arrested, making sure my stuff was always ready to go, and 
making sure  I and my tools and equipment were always prepared for the 
day's assignment. And in the end I don't get the higher position but 
stay where I am or am not rehired because "Oh, we have a new policy, we 
now have decided that we will only hire firefighters from the local area 
because they are familiar with the area." 

The JAC problems are the same with BLM, NPS, BIA, and Fish & Wildlife as 
they are with the Forest Service. Who you know, not what you have 
accomplished, your skills and abilities, or your education. How are 
these positions selected then? Many of the Dept. of Interior job 
announcements state right at the beginning "This position will be 
selected based on experience and merit, and not on race, color, creed, 
religion, etc.," I want to know why we don't have a universally accepted 
standard for hiring that everyone has to adhear to. 

I have tried applying to other states such as Nevada and Arizona, and 
still have no success. I am not a Veteran, although I did try to get in 
but was not able to due to the documentation they wanted that I could 
not produce. I get the chain letter of non-acceptance or a score and 
that I am on the list, not the "we would like to offer you a job in fire 
based on your experience and knowledge" phone call or interview. 

I've kept my opinions to myself, but when asked a question about what I 
think I am not going to lie or be a Yes-Man. I've been to the party 
functions, the boss's invites to sporting stuff, the crew cookouts, all 
of that , but when it come to selecting it always comes down to "I know 
him better than you, so he gets the job." 

Again, the suggestions and comments are appriciated, but I need to know 
is how some of these selection and education problems can be solved. 
Thanks to all of you. 

AE-MOC4445

Ab, i'm back east, i cant be an advisor though, i dont know what the 
hell is going on!! I agree whole-heartdly with you about the lure of the 
fireline, and the friends ive made already. I like ur ideas about fire 
not being all money, new idea, i like that. No activity here...moisture 
recovery at night is good. The land is dry, dry dry, but no fires. 
ZKP 

I appreciate the honesty in your second sentence ZKP.  I know a few upper level managers who could say the same thing, but they won't.  The West was a little more active today with several fires requiring multiple airtankers in North Zone R5 and some of them trying to escape initial attack.  Burning indexes on my forest jumped up about 10-15 points.  More overhead resource order requests as anticipated, but no bodies to respond. . . Ab

My thanks to you Mike, I would suppose you know about this link http://www.umt.edu/globalfirenet/nationalpage.htm since your site has much more info available.  Ab

So, with all the negatives appearing here the last couple of weeks, let me set the record straight regarding my own fire experience and career.  Lest the newer or the yet-to-be firefighters think they should be looking elsewhere for their future and there is naught but a lifetime of frustration waiting for them, let's get positive for a moment.  I have worked for CDF and the USFS for over 24 years and have loved every minute of it!  I wouldn't change my career decision for any other occupation in the world folks.  The experiences I've had, the places I've been, the things I've seen, the emotions I've felt, the close friends I've made, and the irrisistable lure of the fireline have given and still gives me a life I can't imagine having lived without.  This kind of life is only meant for and can only be enjoyed or understood by a select few.  To the new firefighters, if you don't know if you want to be a firefighter after your first year, get out!  This arena is not for you, it will eat you up. 

I've never considered financial rewards as a principle reason for adopting a career.  Nope, for me it's where you get to live, who you get to associate with, what you get to do every day, and the wonderful seduction of fire.  I still love the idea of going to work everyday without knowing what will happen, what crisis will appear, what decisions I'll make, what time I'll get home, for that matter, what time will I go to work.  Will I even come home that night, will I wake up elsewhere the next day, the possibilities are still alluring and endless. 

While its easy to focus on various negative aspects, I try to subscribe to a personal philosophy of challenging and if capable, improving my work areas, duties, and those in my sphere of influence on a daily basis.  Feel free to question your own authorities, challenge traditions in your own areas that you see as problems and offer informed solutions.  As Ramble recently said regarding sacred cows, "kill it".  Most sacred cows are merely traditions.  Webster's sez a tradition is "a custom so long continued that it has almost the force of law. . . the transmission of . . . opinions. . . passed on from generation to generation".  Abercrombie sez tradition is simply a process made sacred through thoughtless repetition.  Let's scrutinize all the sacred cows and see if they're standing on four legs.  If they aren't, let's get rid of them, let's kill 'em all and let the new generation party in the remains.  Many times the old guard loses the ability to "see the forest for the trees".  They may be unable to examine current policies in a neutral light or unwilling to instigate or promote new policies and procedures.  As many  people get older and more advanced in their own career, the less comfortable they are with change.  Changes bring challenges with them and many would rather focus on their nearing retirement.  These managers have lost their creative abilities that most likely allowed them their advancement in the first place.  To them I say, YOU are a roadblock, get the hell out of the way.  Take your pension now and move to a retirement community where you can swap war stories of how good it used to be.  Perhaps sympathy awaits you there amongst others of your kind. 

I've watched the motivational spark dwindle and expire in several firefighters over the years and have told myself repeatedly to watch for it in myself.  I sincerely hope I am able to see it coming. . . BUT it sure as hell isn't today!  I've around three years left before retirement eligibility at age 50 but as I prefer to regard it, I've just 8 years left before they have to kick me out at mandatory retirement age 55.  I've a lot of work to do before I'm ready for the scrap heap, speaking of which, I'd better get to work.  I was up late last night working on resource orders for the fire on the Angeles NF in R5 and many more orders are expected today.  To those of you who make the fire, kick some major butt!  To those of you who stay at home and attack the new ones, hit 'em hard and keep 'em small!  Forget all the bullshit you may hear about how decades of suppressing wildland fires are responsible for the increase of large devastating fires.  I've opinions on that also, but they are still half-baked and no time for them now.  Suffice to say I smell another political self-serving sacred cow wobbling on one leg that needs it's throat slit as soon as I find a big enough knife. 
Be Safe Out There!  Abercrombie

Thanks pulaski.  It's true about hindsight being 20-20.  I can see all my past mistakes with sage clarity, just wish I could prevent the ones coming that I might make today!  Ab.

Ab agrees!  I"m very aware there is a distinct western flavor to this page and would like more participation from around the Nation.  However, I am also aware that USFS R5 and CDF (CA Dept. of Forestry) are two of the largest wildland firefighting organizations in the world, so the high volume of mail may just reflect the amount of employees working here.  Of course, my lack of knowledge regarding Eastern wildland suppression may reduce the amount of questions or comments from the East.  With that in mind, I would be willing to take-on an advisor to help address or promote any Eastern issues or problems.  Perhaps a retired person with a little time on their hands with range of experience in the upper management.  If anyone's interested, let me know.  Ab.

2)  Stop working at out stations.  Although out stations can be a lot more 
relaxed than a district office, this is a career dead zone with limited 
opportunities for off forest assingments and recognition. 

3)  Keep your mouth shut.  I relize this has been mentioned before, but it 
cannot be stressed enough.  Not everybody can go to the big fire in Arizona, 
somebody always needs to stay behind (Even if it's always your crew)  Try and 
put a positive spin on everything, You'll be recognized as someone who 
posseses maturity, a strong personality, and leadership abilities.  This wont 
happen overnight. 

4)  Educate yourself.  Chances are your supervisors didn't have to complete a 
task book in order to get their tickets punched.  That was then but this is 
now, it's a reality.  Take related classes in the winter at a community 
college. Not only Fire classes but supervision, business administration, 
psychology etc. Or better yet, Get a college degree and get a real job. 
   Learn all the paperwork you can at your station.  If you can convince your 
boss that this is not a threat to him or her, It can make their life easier. 

5)  Give up your life during fire season.  Sad but true, If you want to work 
in wildland fire you cannot expect to have a personal life for half the year. 
This may seem rather depressing in July.  Treat yourself to a trip to Mexico 
or some other exotic local in the winter.  In which case you can re-charge 
your batteries like the battle scarred warrior that you are. 

6) Ass kissing?  This is a vague area.  I wouldn't think washing the FMO's 
car on your own time would get you anything but the scorn of your peers. 
Just do what you are told unless it's something unsafe.  In which case offer a 
safe alternative.  Dont give your boss a lot of headaches by turning every 
order into a long discussion. 

7)  Finnally,  Work for CDF (They pay much better) or get a real job. 
    ~Roscoe~

The problem I see here is that in the USFS, with a mandatory retirement age of 55 for firefighters, is that after 35 years of age you don't have time to get your minimum 20 years of work in.  Do you really want to subject your body to the demands of a firefighter, knowing you would be competing against a bunch of eighteen year olds?  Ab.

My thoughts on training, glad you asked.  Let's see, regarding the recent discussion here, they can be broken down into several areas.  Things may be different where you are, but where I am...

First of all, take ALL the training you can get!  As an old school teacher once told me, "if it's free, take it!  If it's not free and you can get it anyway, take it!"  There is a certain logical and mandated progresssion of training one must follow according to USFS policy (check with your personnel department to find yours) as their career evolves.  However, at the earlier career phases they aren't as limiting.

With that comment in mind, there may also be other reasons why a person can't seem to get the trainng they need.  In Region 5, prior to each years training there is a committee who selects trainees on a priority basis for each training class.  Since each Forest may have only one-two slots allowed the committee uses several different criteria during the process.  Yes, diversity plays a large role in this process, but there are other important items considered.  Each District on the Forest has a rep at the meeting to establish and fight for their own needs.  Let's use the earlier example of Ramble's message wherein one District has lost half of their engine bosses.  Let's say you were on an adjoining District, had been on the Engine Academy "training needed" list for four years and were certain that next Spring you would be going.  It probably wouldn't happen and you would be bumped once again.  The District who needs to fill their current positions with certified individuals will be given priority since your training application states that the training is needed for future skills.  And, there may also be other, just as or more deserving employees competing against you for the slots available.

Regarding the comments from AE-MOC4445 wherein he wonders if, "I went out for beers and lived next door", would increase his chances of promotion, I don't think so.  The type of leaders who promote this way will also be the first ones stab you in the back if they think you are beginning to rise too fast and perhaps putting their job in jeopardy.  However, since the days of the strong, silent, Gary Cooper type being noticed and promoted seem to have passed, there are several things you can do to help your cause.  I still believe the best way is performing in your current position in a manner that exceeds your peers.  Especially on fires!  Show up to work each day early, ready for the scheduled duties that day.  Stay a few minutes late making sure your (and others) personal gear and equipment is ready to go for the unexpected night calls.  Make sure all the tools and equipment used that day are ready for the next job.  Do these things with your mouth shut, knowing that you personally will always be ready for anything.  Don't whine about overtime, missed assignments, hazard pay, or anything else.  Whining will get you noticed, but not the way you want.  Your peers may begin to call you an ass-kisser, but screw 'em, remember, they are your direct competitors for advancement.

While you don't need to drink beers and party with your supervisor, other social functions within the department are an excellent way to get noticed.  At these functions, such as picnics, going away parties, etc., try and meet the supervisors or leaders who may be a little higher up the food chain.  You don't have to be an ass-kisser to converse with the higher-ups.  Get informed on the issues they face each day so you will have something intelligent to say, and perhaps even your own opinion on how an issue may be resolved, don't bore them with your personal problems.  Informal gatherings can be your opportunity to make yourself known.  Remember, it really isn't always what you know. . . perhaps the next time there is a training selection committee, one or two of them may remember your face instead of just looking at  a name on paper.  It really doesn't take a whole lot to seperate yourself from your peers.  Be a volunteer, accept duties or assignments outside your daily duties and consider it an opportunity to meet other people and become more informed and knowledgable of the "big picture".  Your fire job is just a small part of a large puzzle.  These types of activities will help other leaders notice you and you never know when your District Ranger will have the final say in a detail opportunity when the two highest qualified candidates may be you and one other with similar fire backgrounds.

I'm sure I've said this before, but you MUST separate yourself from your peers.  At the same time, you MUST also be a strong supporterof the "team player" concept and support those who need the help!  Be a leader first, the pay and promotions will come.  Ab

let me throw another one out here for discussion: 
The buzz on my district is minority hiring. 10 people at the work 
center.....all 10 male, one african american...and 13 in the main 
office, 6 females, the ranger and assistant ranger are female.... 
...and here comes the point, the gov't talks all this equal employment 
BS, if they want to make it fair, why not delete Sex, or Race on the 
damn application?  It dont get any fairer than that does it? 

of course, i realize that i am a member of the govt, i joke with my 
friends at work that thinking is the kind of shit that gets you fired. 
we had a nice long safety meeting this week about how the So has all 
this new "ergonomic" stuff, CPU stations... chairs, keyboards, the guy 
even said they had a new ergonomic snow shovel. He said that we needed 
to replace all of our stuff with the new ergonomic stuff, but wont give 
us the new money to do so...ive never seen an ergonomic pulaski, or a 
hammer, or drip torch, how bout an ergonomic mist blower?????. Who sits 
in an office and makes this up? personally i think its funny, but this 
fellow was dead serious. 

penny for my thoughts: I dont think too much any more. None of it makes 
sense. 

see ya'll on the big one, if my boss dont get a hold of the resource 
order anyway. 

AE-MOC445: Sorry if i hit a nerve, I'll probably be goin through the 
same things as you in a few years, wait until turnover hits and they 
suddenly dont have anybody in fire management, then you can show em! 

ZKP

People are not getting permanent positions because of restrictions in 
hiring, i.e. opening permanent full-time jobs to qualified members of 
the public. The excuses ramble on like this: 

"Open to career-conditional, VRA, or permanent government employees." 

"Only those currently employed in Region 5 for the Forest Service will 
be considered" 

"You must complete the JAC Academy before you can be accepted." 

"You must have Fire Class A, B, C, and D to qualify for the position, 
but it will only be recognized if its done on our Forest", 

"Thank you for applying to our Forest, and as a requirement for your 
position none of your red card qualifications will not be accepted and 
you will have to do all of them over on OUR Forest before you can do 
your job." 

"Although OPM rules state that you must be a GS-03 firefighter for two 
seasons before you move up to a GS-04, we require that you work for four 
season as a GS-03 before you promote." 

"You are well qualified and can fill both the job requirements and have 
the skills necessary to lead the crews, because you did not have your 
training or experience done through Forest Service, but rather through 
other government fire agencies, we cannot accept those certifications, 
even if they are comparable or the same as the "I" and "S" classes we 
require." 

This list can go on and on and on. There are a tremendous number of 
people RIGHT NOW who could fill these positions who are temporary 
seasonal firefighters who have the skills and experience to fill the 
jobs, but because of the UNREALISTIC, and nearly Unobtainable 
educational goals and requirements necessary to fill these jobs, they go 
unfilled! The constant "Wait until next season, we'll try to get you in 
then" and "If you would apply yourself maybe you could get into the JAC 
Academy." 

SPARE ME THIS CRAP!!! 

This year as San Jose's Fire-Rescue West 99 I had the pleasure of 
meeting Doug Campbell, the creator of the Campbell Prediction System. I 
asked him what he thought about the direction the Forest Service was 
headed with all the requirements put on someone who wants to move up, or 
into, the organization. Through our discussion, it kept coming up that 
the requirements placed on Fire Management positions are way to 
stringent for the actual times you would use them in the field or even 
in your carrier. The downsizing is a small part of it, but it really 
comes down to too many requirements, too few training classes, and not 
enough support from the districts and forests to get people in classes 
they need, or put them on themselves. 

Take for example the primary requirement for Engineer, or Fire Equipment 
Operator for the FS Types. The main part besides licensing is the 
two-week Engine Academy. The only way you can get in is if you have a 
permanent appointment of some type. They will not allow anyone to come 
in from the outside of federal agencies when an academy is going to be 
put on, and they certainly will not allow temporary seasonals who have 
called and offered to pay for the class OUT OF THIER OWN POCKET just so 
they could fill the position or help to open a door for permanency. They 
want to move up so they try an alternate method of training, and get the 
same or equivilant training through an NFPA or State Fire Training 
approved course. California's State Fire Marshal's Office offers a 
tremendous amount of approved training from the prime fire 
administrations, including Driver/Operator IA and IB, a 80-96  hour 
course that involves driving fire apparatus and pumping operations and 
leads to a Certification of Driver/Operator, that exceed what the 
DOA/DOI Engine Academy gives. I was denied a job because one supervisor 
said to me "You have the training and experience, but your Engine 
Academy did driving first, where the regular engine academy does pumping 
first, and because of that I can't hire you." 

The job requirements have to be there for you to get the job, don't get 
me wrong there. You would not want to assign a first year firefighter to 
the position of engineer without him meeting the requirements of the 
job. But when you say "You must have Engine Academy, Paperwork Academy, 
S-290, Single resource leader, First Aid/CPR, plus the requirements for 
firefighter, but we will not pay for you to go and we will not help you 
get into those classes, even in the off-season, and if you don't do them 
through us, it won't count." 

This season a new station manager called me and offered me a position 
with a federal agency as a GS-06 FEO. He said to me that my experience 
and training was  getting hard to find and that I was a valuable 
commodity in fire. He kept on going with how he would like to hire me 
and it would be an active fire season. When I asked him did he look at 
my qualifications on the application he said yes. I asked him with my 
experience and training did he think I could run the crew myself, and he 
said yes. When I asked him would I be able to take the crew out, when he 
was not around, to a fire or emergency after hours, or even on a large 
fire, given my experience and education, he said that I could go out 
with the captain or other engineer. That told me right there that he was 
giving me a line to get me in the door, and that it was not a full 
engineers position, but rather an assistant, and under an assistant with 
less years in fire. If you want me for my experience, then it goes all 
the way! 

I know for a fact that the National Park Service for there wildland and 
structural firefighters accept training certificates other than that of 
federal agencies. The current FMO for Yosemite holds a California State 
Fire Officers Certificate, and that was acceptable training for the 
position. 

You cannot put the requirements with the job unless you can provide the 
training for everyone, regardless of status. And when you find a class, 
such as S-290, and you take it through a State Fire Agency and not a 
federal on, they will deny it because "You did not do it through the 
Forest Service, so it does not count." There are a large number of 
classes that are not I or S designated, but are combinations which reach 
the same or similar training goals stated. We need to start cutting out 
the fat of these training programs and concentrating on what is 
necessary, not what order it occurs in if it really, truely, is 
insignificant. 

This is BS!!! Those that seek out this specialized training should be 
rewarded for thier efforts and experiences, not slapped down for it. If 
they get an S or I class through someone else, accept it. It is the same 
course if its given by the Lassen NF, or by the Lassen-Modoc CDF Ranger 
Unit. It comes from the same book! When you have no other means to get 
the requirement, alternate education needs to be considered and 
alternate training should be accepted when access to regular training is 
restricted. You cannot make these requirement stick if you don't make 
the classes and the training openly available and affordable to all, not 
just a select few. 

Lets talk the truth about the Joint Apprenticeship Academy. They keep 
encouraging you to apply and don't give up, they say if you want to get 
permanency you have to get into the JAC. The FMO's and Rangers/Area 
Managers say "Sure, you did a good job for the last four years, I'll 
recommend you for the JAC" and then you see the first year firefighter 
who joined last year get in ahead of you, or a minority with little or 
no experience walks into the academy off the street (MY DEEPEST 
APPOLOGIES TO THOSE MINORITIES WHO CAN AND ARE DOING THE JOB, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.) Only those "favorite children" get those positions, and 
its not going to those with the most time in, or those with the most or 
widest range of experience, or those who came into a new position from 
another forest and haven't spent six or more years in the same place. 
The position are not being selected on factual and occupational 
experiences, but plainly on "Who's my buddy!". 

Its no wonder that the Forest Service, and BLM and NPS, are losing 
people right and left for better positions with state and local 
government fire agencies including allowing for continuing job training, 
better working hours or more flexible hours, and much better benefits, 
retirement, and pay, and far less bueaucratically empire-protecting 
nonsense that is happening now. 

The Forests need to stop the games of withholding resources from going 
to campaign fires when called upon. This continuous "Oh, we don't want 
our engines and people off forest because it costs us money, and we 
can't get other non-fire related projects done without the labor from 
fire personnel, but we'll send out our biologist off to fill an overhead 
position that the AFMO is qualified for, and it'll be all right." All 
right for who, the biologist? 

With the increasing number of private contracting resources becoming 
available, many which cost far more money to hire than utilizing 
existing fire-qualified forest personnel, it seems like our forest 
supervisors and regional directors want government performed fire 
management taken out back and shot in the head. This is a very plausable 
explanation for what has been happening. And the only way for things to 
change is if everyone in fire, both permanent and seasonal, get involved 
with what is going on, both during fire season and in the off-season. 

Things like this were supposed to be stopped a long time ago, but they 
still continue today. Nothing is going to change until there is major 
changes in those who are running fire management and those who are trying 
to destroy fire management. 

Finally, there are those in Fire Management who have made so many 
mistakes, waste large sums of money, caused damage and destruction or 
property because of biased and prejudiced views of other rival agencies, 
mislead others in information and personal advise, and continually get 
bailed out by their buddies regardless of the monetary, personal, and 
reputational costs. These people need to be held accountable for their 
blatantly wrong and/or illegal actions, as in being written up for 
their actions, demotions, transfers out of fire, terminations, loss of 
status and benefits, personal liability, criminal prosecution, and penal 
incarceration. But rather than what could happen to you or me given the 
same circumstances, these people have the incident forgotten, paperwork 
lost, the matter ignored because of their status or who they know (and 
what they know about), are transferred to a better location, or been given 
the "disciplinary promotion". We need to hold those who break the rules 
and the law accountable for their actions, and to be made into a harsh 
example to others. 
I am talking about things like "I didn't want anyone at the fire except
my people", even though there was a competent fire crew down the road
who could keep the fire down to a few acres, instead of thousands
of acres and dozens of homes that were destroyed. But you 
know, I know the forest supervisor, and my mother knows a lot of the 
retirees who can put in a good word for me so I keep my job, but dammit, 
I kept only my buddies and my agencies resources on the fire, and kept 
everyone else out because they don't do things our way!". These people 
need to be held accountable for there actions, and believe me, they are 
still there, still getting promoted, still pulling the bonehead mistakes 
that will one day get someone critically injured or killed, and God 
forbid it becomes a member of the public! 

I have had my say in this mess. Things can get better and can change if 
we all stop playing games and do the job. Everything I have mentioned 
here is fact, or strongly based on factual matters that I have seen and 
still continue to see and experience. I did hide the names and places of 
the guilty. The people are in place, spend a little money to finish 
those people's training instead of making everyone who come along to 
Jump through the hoops of your personal or forest's three-ring circus 
and torture chamber!! You want a pound of my flesh, then take the knife 
out and cut it off yourself! Hire me based on my individual experience, 
education, knowledge, and abilities, and if my stuff is higher than the 
guy who has been there for three years, then you hire me! 

I've blown out enough steam for one day. I can only hope that someone, 
with the authority and courage to affect change can realize what is 
happening to fire management, not just in California, but across the 
nation, and do something positive to effect change. 

You all have the power to make the changes. The NONSENSE HAS TO STOP!!! 

AE-MOC4445

Hmmmm. . . checked the FWFSA page and it sez nothing new.  However, a couple of weeks ago, I did overhear the national prez talking to a regional rep saying there was a snag.  Iit sounded like some or one of the sponsors were uncomfortable with the increased funding it would take to fund the proposed Act.  Ab.

I'm not meaning to sound like an asshole (and I'm not tryin to piss 
anybody off), but there are a lot of fire fighters on my district 
waiting on the call to go to ANYWHERE! I have two months left to earn 
enough money to put me through school next fall and spring, I hear Ya'll 
when you say standby doesn't pay the bills. 

Anybody who needs a regular run-of-the-mill ground pounder, I am 
avaliable, and waiting. 

By the way, my boss says that there have been no resource orders come to 
my office this week, but he left for a fire a few hours ago..... 

Bobster, if you need a hand, I'm ready, willin and able. 

ZKP 

What I'm see'in here is not a shortage of entry level firefighters ZKP, but a shortage of first to second level management personnel.  In other words, there really isn't a recruitment problem (that's a fallacy projected by the Washington office concerned with the statistics of "diversity"), but a retention problem.  Even without more downsizing, the shortage of these vital (unappreciated?) personnel will become even more evident as the upper management retires.  Ya can have all the logistical, statistical, and human resource specialists in the world on a fire, but without the squad bosses, engineers, and captains to run the crews, there won't be a lot of suppression action.  I've yet to see a wet line or hand line applied with a spreadsheet.  Ab

Like everywhere else in the country, and like I've been reading here in the "they said it" zone, the bad asses of the federal government is rapidly downsizing. I remember as a kid firefighter 12 years ago wanting so badly to be on the big green type 3 engine, I nearly quit my fire district job. Glad I decided to listen to my father who worked CDF for 25 years. "Don't go for the Feds, stay where your at. You'll see". Words that I lived by and never regreted hearing. 

Here in AZ, the majority of the forests and BLM fire programs are not up to par due to the ever increasing downsizing (oxymoron) of the federal fire programs. With our appocoliptic fire season getting under way, we as the local fire guys and gals are having to pick up the fed fires not as tasks forces or strike teams, but as initial attack and initial IC's. I will give the feds a break, though. A few years ago, if local resources were to IA a fire on fed lands, and request additional resources, they'd send a agency rep out first to evaluate the scene prior to filling our order. Now days, you want it, for the most part, you got it coming. Also, out communications are a little better both professionally and at the the bar. 

As we start busting a few fires a day here in northern AZ, we'll see if the feds will be able to keep up with the demand. I just wish that the federal fire monies were consistent every year, and not have to bring up "severity" funds to meet minimal staffing requirments. Stay safe, and I'll see 'ya all' on the big 
one on the Prescott! 

Tim Irwin, 
Dist. FMO 
Mayer Fire District, AZ

LRS 
Shasta-Trinity Ranger unit 
Northern Ca

Our current fire suppression organization is in such a constant state of transition that there aren't enough module leaders to support the existing crews and engines on a seven day a week basis, let alone allow any of the module leaders to accept an off-forest assignment where they may be gone for 21 days. 
For example, on one of our districts there are four engines.  Within the last month, right before our fire season kicks in; one engine Captain is resigning from service, another took a detail/promotion, and two Engineers took promotions to other forests.  With my math, that leaves just four qualified engine bosses to run four engines seven days a week for about five months.  And. . .  there aren't ANY qualified people behind the ones leaving to pick up the slack.  With an apparent calm and outward stoic acceptance, the district FMO confided he may be forced to shut down one of the engines on a daily basis for lack of qualified leaders.  This isn't a district that sees just a few fires per year, this is a very hot area that initial attacks around 95-120 fires and burns around 3000 acres in escaped fires each year.  Many outreach letters have already been distributed with a discouraging lack of response to those trying to fill these vacant positions (see the letter below for similar situations).  I admire this FMO and understand his frustration as he tries to cope in these difficult times.  I sincerely hope he is able to absolve himself from feeling or sharing any responsibility for the increase of property and forest resources loss due to increased fire escapes.  I know this is not an isolated case, it's happening across the Nation!  I can't wait to observe the full effect of the last 5 years of downsizing when the Pacific Northwest really begins burning again.  Will it be this year? 

Returning to the original point of a lack of qualified overhead, there is also a political ongoing process on our province (an grouping of three forests) called the Herger/Feinstien Act which is occupying the time of many of our fire-going overhead on a seven day a week basis.  A multitude of firefighters and militia have been sucked into this "tar-baby" to become unable to accept off-forest assingnments (or perform the jobs they were hired to do). 

There are still some militia who would love to go to fires and most of the fire suppression personnel want to go, BUT. . . most of them are members of  Type I or province Type II teams and are on a "do not touch" list.  This may be a necessary evil, however, I must consider the many years I've watched these valuable and scarce resources held in limbo waiting for what MAY happen instead of releasing them to fight the fires that ARE happening.  A majority of the time, as it turns out, these team members could have accepted other assignments and returned without missing a team assignment.  I would love to see the statistics on how many times individual overhead assignments for team members could have been filled versus how many times their team was activated during the same time periods.  It may be time to re-examine the Type I team concept.  I know it may be a sacred cow, but let's kill it.  It was conceived when there were more qualified overhead than there were fires to send them to.  Why not disband all the Type I teams and toss the qualified  members into a regional or, as needed, a national rotational pool.  When there is a new fire requiring a Type I team, just have the local GACC go down the appropriate list and take the first person available to accept the assignment.  It's kinda nice to work with the same people all the time, but is it really necessary?  Individual overhead can reach anywhere in the US within 24 hours and the overhead who have been unable to work with a team would get some valuable experience. 

Let's get the qualified people on existing fires and quit waiting for the sky to fall! 

Thanks AB for the space to offer my humble opinion. 
Ramble

The situation you describe with folks leaving and retiring is true almost everywhere. In some areas it is becoming critical. In the helitack world we are very close to critical right now. The supervisor job in Boise only had 3 qualified applicants. It took 3 announcements and about a year to fill the supervisor position at Lakeview. In 1988 there were less than 100 helicopters available on CWN contracts, now there are about 250 available. During the same time the Forest Service has downsized about 17%. Every season NIFC has trouble filling request for qualified helicopter managers and helitack. Right now I feel the situation is going to get worse before it gets better. Oh well, can only do so much. Hope you get to Florida soon, right now I'm keeping my fingers crossed for New Mexico or Arizona. 
Bobster

Just for the record Ab, let me say that over all I love my job. I know 
that some of these management problems are over my bosses head. I love 
the project work I do, and I get along with all my bosses, they give me 
all the hours I want and Hell, I'm only 18. I'm having a blast! Call me 
crazy, but I look forward to going to work every day, I like the yellow 
and green even more. Somebody get me on a fire crew to Florida or 
anywhere! 

Be SAFE, I lost a beard last week on a little 1 acre arson fire, 
ZKP

All photos on this site are in standard jpg format.  I stumbled across the site which had the experimental photos of the Forks Fire a couple of years ago, but alas, I've not been able to find it since.  Course, ya could just send 'em here to have a look for their selves.  Ab

                                                                    stay at home 

I, and I suspect many other readers hope you get some fires this year, cause you really must get a new moniker!  Ab

So it is easy to see that even if a District or Forest is short staffed there is some pressure to burn whenever you are in prescription. Personally I think this is a good thing. It provides excellent training opportunities and extends the length of our seasons, not to mention the money that comes along with that. 1000 acres with 6 people may or may not be a problem depending on the holding problems. I once helped my FMO burn an 800 acre unit with only the two of us, of course the unit was surrounded by snow. Last Monday we burned a 450 acre unit of willows and had 2 engines and almost 30 people. 

Right now I think the real issues are; Can we keep up the pace we started with current staffing levels and problems with turnover? Can we get enough people qualified in time to meet our targets? And will the next congress change thier mind, ie... will all this burning actually reduce suppression cost. 

Bobster

Ground Pig. 

Good to hear from you Pig, how's that new $5 mouse movin'?  Ab.

Interesting question, I'd say about 50/50.  So get yer butt in the right place and show some of those good old boys what a hard worker you are.  Ab

can anyone help? 

ZKP 

There's a few links to training on the links page.  Ab

Let's hope it gets really, really interesting!  Ab.

Safety always takes a back seat until something very bad. . . and preventable happens.  Latest word of advice from a province Safety Officer sez that OSHA will soon have the power to levy fines against the Forest Service for any lack of adherence to policies.  We are talking big fines which I am sure would result in other disciplinary actions.  Let's hope so for those who deem safety anything less than the top priority.  Ab

J. 

You're not going to piss anyone off here J.  Everything you say is true, but it ain't going to happen according to your last sentence!  Rumors and ideas are flying in R5 on how the next session of temp employment hiring will happen.  The most likely scenario I see will be one where an "enterprising team" will provide the hiring for the entire region.  Applicants will be able to select the Forest they wish to work for and all applications will be sent to one place for rating and distribution.  There is once again HEAVY pressure from Washington on diversity in R5.  Stay tuned, Ab.

Emmett 
Engineer, Calif. Dept. of Forestry and Fire Protection 
Fresno/Kings Ranger Unit 

Thanks for the supportive message, Emmett, after the first message I've seen in a week, (see below) I needed one.  But don't worry, they (whoever they are) won't EVER get us genuine, firefight'in piss-fers down!  Glad you got some cross-training burning experience with some good folks and I hope there is a lot more of that going on in the future.  Remember, 'cept for a little elevation and some veg types, there isn't really that much difference between us.  Ab

Sorry to hear about Rob!  Coincidently, I was at the Ops Center last month and I'm pretty sure I met him over a cup.  My (and our readers) condolences for your and his family's loss.  Ab

The more with less also runs into project work, too. Just last year 
everyone had vehicles, tools, enough people to work with, and now we 
share vehicles and argue over who gets the tools and the help. 

One more question about a Rx burn: If a district has to call for extra 
resources to work a Rx burn, would that not tell them that they bit off 
more than they could chew? I went on a Rx burn on Beards Mountain a few 
weeks ago when the district had us on the mountain for 2 days mopping up 
spotovers. I thought a fire was escaped when you had to call in extra 
resources to patrol/mop up spots. The first night we were on the fire, 
which was a fri night,(after 40 hours that week), we were not released 
from the lines until 11 am sat morning. Simple math calculates this at 
27 hours on duty. Dangerous? Yup. We went back on the line at 4pm that 
day. Asking for trouble? Definally. The money is good, but man, this is 
crazy. My crew could not have lasted for three weeks like this, and this 
was just mop-up. Line construction would have been impossible to do for 
27 hours, im in good shape, but not that good! 

hope I get some of that money on the 1000+ acre burn six of us did! 

ZKP 

I hope ya do too ZKP, sounds like you've earned some of it.  I enjoy hearing your thoughts and comments, most of the posts here are from either wanna be's (how do I get a job) or fairly experienced firefighters.  Most of the issues you mention will hold little surprise from the more experienced readers here.  You haven't mentioned what type of crew you are working on, but I'll tell you that the hours and work you have described are very common.  If you are on a hotshot crew or any  variety of initial attack module, get used to it or quit now, it won't get any better!  Ya gotta love it!  And as far as I can tell, it's an inborn thing, you won't "learn" to love it.

Prescribed fire managers, when preparing a burn plan, must always show what type and amount of resources are needed to light, hold, and patrol the burn.  The wise managers show a buffer, allowing them to reinforce the burning resources (if necessary) beyond what the resources actually needed to ignite and hold the unit.  There can be a grey area between what constitutes acceptable extra burning and what will be classified as an escaped fire.  It can depend on the burn plan, the amount of extra burned area, the type of additional resources ordered, the quantity of resources ordered, or the duration of the staffing on the burn.  In any case, requesting additional resources from an adjoining district or unit won't be considered an escaped fire.

Have you been to your first real fire yet?  If you have, tell us about it, if you haven't, be sure to let us know what you think when you get back.  As far as long hours go, I think my longest shift on a fire was 52 hours