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12/31	Ab, After sending ya'll my story I went to check the snail mail, and  found a late arriving Christmas gift. Curious, seeing as I almost  never get mail addressed to me I opened it and found inside a copy of  Fire on the Mountain, it seems that our Camp Director from the last  summer shipped off copies to everyone who put out our small blaze. Since getting the book, I've read it in entirety, and spent some time  looking over yours and others comments, reading for the first  time, the 10 and 18, and I must agree on a few things. Mistakes were made on all levels, however the fatalities could have  been avoided on the scene by the supervisors. The offices, although  strained probably could have given more concern to the Storm King  fire. The thing I see here is a lack of communications... Maybe  you're right in that the fire arena needs more hands and journalists,  I feel a well worded report could have gotten better results from the  offices.  I would like to say however Ab is that youmight have been a  little harsh on your review, criticizing the writer more than the  work. I stand along with those who say "He's a writer, not a fireman,  give him a break." If he was a firefighter though, I would have  expected a bit better out of him.. maybe I'll make that one of my  goals.   Best regards to all for the New Year and hopes for a safe season. Tiny,  The aspiring wildfire journalist. P.S. Thanks for the idea Ab, never thought about wildfire journalism, I  have helped to write a few statements for my local county fire  district for the papers, but never thought about wild fire.. it's an  interesting prospect.
12/31	Hey Ab-- I've never done this photo thing before. How many (how large?) can I send at once? Is jpeg better than tif? Do you have any other suggestions? Guess I'll send these one at a time... Hey Doug, do you have a CPS for sending photos? Any watchouts or fire orders, Dave? (I hate these steep learning curves!) Mellie Thanks for the photos Mellie, you did just right.  Send the photos one at a time in jpg format.  If any of you don't have jpg capability, I can convert just about any format.  Try to keep the files below 150k or so for download speed concerns.  If they are bigger, let me know before you send them so I'll know they are coming.  If any photos would make a good background for the desktop, keep in mind that many folks are running at 800x600 or 1024x768.  Any questions, drop me a line.  Mellie, your photos have been posted on the "Guest3" page.  Ab.
12/31	Abercrombie and All--Happy New Century, may it be a safer one... Three of us spent Christmas day hiking Strom King. The day was auspicious, a day on which people enjoy family and celebrate life. No one had signed the register since December 9. There were stickers on the register box lid of many hotshot and other fire crew with whom I feel family. Only one adult-sized ski pole in the can, but 2 or 3 for little children. We'll need to see that a few more recycled adult poles get collected and delivered. Some snow but no footprints, clear weather, not too cold. We hiked in silence. Hellava upslope wind when we reached the top of the canyon. Western aspect 2PM, would have been preheated fuel if there were any fuel left at all and if it had been summertime. Actually, I'm rattling on because I'm sitting here crying, just as all three of us cried there. It is so sad. They shouldn't have died. Thanks for all the dialog about safety and methods for looking at fire behavior on this web site.   I took a few pictures. We felt we were climbing as emissaries for all who remember.   Thank you ALL for your good work in fire. A special hug for those of you who fought and rehabed fire in Nevada last summer/fall and didn't get the recognition you deserve. Mellie from Five Waters
12/31	I knew I should've clarified my statement about "not fighting fire  downhill"...  I was speaking in general terms, and generally it is accepted  that fighting a fire downhill can be very dangerous. Of course there are times when you can "fight" a fire by moving downhill.  Depending on fuels, expected behavior, topography, and weather, you may make  the decision to make your line downhill.  However, in reference to the  specific event at Storm King, those factors were not requested or were  ignored.  Make that decision using as much information as you can. There are very few absolutes in life... except that no stretch of forest is  worth losing firefighters.  Moleskin Isn't it fun exposing your opinions and thoughts to the world, Doc?  Glad to hear from you, post on!  Ab.
12/31	When I click on the "They Said It" line this is the message I get from the  internet?? Unknown Host   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Description: Unable to locate the server named "www.wildlandfire.com" --- the  server does not have a DNS entry. Perhaps there is a misspelling in the  server name, or the server no longer exists. Double-check the name and try  again.  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If anyone else has experienced this problem, it's my webpage server's fault.  Seems they were having difficulties this morning, but seems ok now.  Ab.
12/30	Abercrombie, Thanks for having a page with links, info, and probably the most  important of all, the forum. It is an excellent site and I only wish  more like these existed. I am a youngster (16 if anyone was wondering) and I got interested  in wildfire the summer of 1994, when the Tyee Creek blaze burned  through the central Cascades in Washington State. My Boyscout troop  was on a 50 mile hike through the back country and I remember taking  night time fire watches on pourpose just so I could see the amber  glow across the ridges to the west of us.  This past summer I served at a summer camp for the Boy Scouts of  America in Okanogan (or maybe Ferry) County of Washington and I was  assigned as part of the Staff's motley fire response crew.  As a part  of the staff of Camp Bonaparte, my offical job was that of Assistant  Camp Ranger, or more precisely, fix-it man, on the fire crew  though they gave me what were referred to as Bladder Bags. (Later I  found out they were originally called piss bags). I thought it was  cool, a giant squirt gun with a high pressure range of nearly twenty  feet if there wasn't wind and you arced the stream enough.  I, nor anyone else on staff this summer never thought we'd actually  have a fire to contend with, but as the Scout regulations call for,  we had practice drills every week within the first 24 hours a new  week of campers arrived. That was until the second to last week. I  had noticed everything was drying out, and insisted on making rounds  at night to make sure that the camper's had put down their fires to  an acceptable level, as night time winds in the area tended to be a  bit breezy. My extra pushing of the issue of fire safety paid off  when that Thursday, the Lifeguard at our camp was returning from  using the kybo and saw a column of smoke rising out of the forest  near the slope of Mt. Bonaparte. Very calmly she asked if trees gave off grey colored steam, over the  2-way UHF radios we used to communicate in camp, when I told her that  steam wasn't likely this late in the afternoon she said then we have  a problem. Then our Camp Director, who had been a fireman for twenty  years or so yelled over the radio to get the bladder bags and  pulaskis up the mountain. I don't ever believe I ran any faster than I did that day in my life.  It was a good hilly area so gettin gto the mess hall where my bag was  hooked convienently on the outside of the building was a bit of a  chore so I diverted instead to our camp Office where another pair of  bags were held, but I was concerned with taking another crew member's  gear, fortuneatley my detour turned out to be good because  the young man's bag that I had was closer to my bag at the mess  hall so we just switched for the episode. Once equipped I thought  back to a few words of advice: "Don't run with the bladder bags,  you'll get too tired before you reach the fire." Those words were right, as I walked briskly the three other young men  with the piss bags ran to the fire, but as they stood gasping for  their breaths at the bottom of the hill on which the fire was  burning, I marched up the hill where the members with hand tools were  already working and I began giving assistance, it took the other  three about ten minutes to get up the side of the hill to be any  good. Thankfully the fire was close to Lake Bonaparte and when a bag  would run out the man carrying it would go down to the lake and fill  it. Also, the fire didn't consume so much as a small bit of brush  thankfully, and the impact was minimal. We will never know what  started the fire, for certain.  In hindsight, all the drilling we did should have alerted me to a  problem with our bags, and that was they leaked, slowly, from the cap  where the slide is attatched, however I was told we lacked teflon  tape to fix the problem, so each week I asked for someone heading to  the city to pick up a roll of tape to fix it with. It never came, so  I took it as meaning it was low priority and went about things like  reparing cook boxes, mending feces, and filling propane tanks. I  regret not having gone to the stores myself for the tape, for I am  willing to say that if the fire had gotten any bigger and the winds  were stronger our leaky bags may have hurt us more than helped. Any how, that's my story from the lines if you can call it that. Thanks to all of the wild land fire fighters out there, you ladies  and gents do a hell of a job, and probably don't recieve enough of  our (the public's) gratitude. "Tiny"  Thanks for sharing your experience with us Tiny!  From the quality and depth of your letter, I think you will be able to pick from at least two careers, either journalism or a firefighting.  The fire arena needs both. . . why not a fire going journalist?  Ab.
12/30	Another thing to consider regarding the MEA, and I hesitate with this as my knowledge is limited. Within the past year I received a letter informing me what I owe the gov't money to buy back my temp. service. In the letter, it described why I could only buy back my time prior to 1/1/89, and anything beyond that date could not be bought back and applied to my service computation date. Huh? I started in 1985, and received my appointment in 1992. This means there is a small period of time which I served the agency and will not get credit for it. The relationship to MEA......   In the past year vacancy announcements for demo and jac positions have been saying that an applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday. However, the application describes that an applicant may decrease their chronological age if they have previous service that qualifies. i.e., age 37 with 2+ years of temporary service reduces their age to 35. Now, one of the claimed reasons for the MEA is so that we all can retire with 20 years of service at age 55, or at any age with 25 years of service. IF, someone who is above the 35 year age limit has had their age reduced by calculating temp time gained AFTER 1/1/89, how can they retire at age 55? they can't! or atleast not without penalty, because they will not have the minimum 20 years of credible service.  When I calculated my SCD myself, I in fact discovered that it does not include the accumulated months of service post 1/1/89. Does anyone out there have any more info on this? Not that it really matters, but if the-powers-that-be have been reducing age by using temp time served post 1/1/89, then there has been an abundance of exemptions to the MEA by the FS. This could open a huge can of worms, but could also help Pappy's friends' attorney. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm losing faith in this agency. f.g.
12/30	Just wanted to know what is going on with the step test? is it in or out? The rumor for the last couple of years is that it is next years requirement and then next year comes around and it still isn't online. I have been in fire since 1977, and personally, just standing in front of the step, before I even start, sends my pulse racing... I like the idea of the mile and half run, and even this pack test. I think that the physical test should be one of unisex nature, with one requirement...that you pass it at the same level as everyone eles. I am female and lived through the U.S.F.S.'s Consent Decree in California...I worked in fire and went to forestry school before C.D. hit the ground. If these timed tests were implemented then, surely those, overweight and out of shape would have been plucked out off the line long ago. (noname) It sounds like it will be in place for the coming (if it's ended in your area) fire season.  Year 2000 that is!  Abercrombie agrees that the pack test should be implemented.  Have you all seen how many firefighters were felled by heart attacks this year?  Ab.
12/30	Moleskin, I would have to agree with you, if you don't know how to fight fire while going down hill then you and your crew are better off not starting. However, to make a blank statement that implies fighting fire down hill should never be done is very discourging. There are times and places where this is not only a very effective tactic, but it is the safest also. Let's not start limiting our options, just learn the correct time and place to impliment the tactic. "Boo"
12/30	The homepages for all the hotshot crews who have them are listed at:  http://www.umt.edu/globalfirenet/nationalpage.htm 6
12/30	Regarding the hotshot enquiry: You can find the hotshot crews listed at www.fs.fed.us/fire/operations/crews   The Flathead hotshots are located near Whitefish, Calispell and Hungry Horse in NW Montana. A great bunch, they fought the Megram fire at our ranch in northern CA this last summer. Small world, my uncle from Polson, MT delivered one of the crew and all of his brothers and sisters. Another worked with my cousin in Whitefish! Ya'll come visit! The Entiat Hotshots are located 200 mi E of Seattle on the Columbia River.    The Bitterroot Hotshots are located 65 mi south of Missoula near Darby in western Montana.  The Helena hotshots are from Helena, Montana. Their crew boss is Larry Edwards. This group is also near and dear to my heart because they helped hook a 1/4 mi long slopover that extended 800 feet down below the containment line just above our ranch. Saving that slopover was the psychological turning point of the western (Denny) side of the fire. Thanks ya'll! Mellie from Five Waters
12/30	As a former CDF firefighter and a retired fire captain for a county fire district in Califorina, I found your web site great!! I can't wait to dig out some of my old fire photos to share with you.  I have since went into business for myself, owning bulldozers and specializing in wildland fire control and prevention.  So I was wondering if you knew of any "dozer" re- lated associations, web site, info, etc.. for us who fight wildfires with bulldozers.  Thank-you for your time and a truly  great site!!! Gary
12/30	Concerning the 12/29 request for web info/shot crew websites: http://www.umt.edu/globalfirenet/nationalpage.htm Puffin II
12/30	Last week when the fires were breaking overnight in So Cal, I thought I could  find a decent place to get the news on the web. SZ gacc, no luck, LA County ,Nothing  several other  places no new news. So I went to Channel2000.com, LA's CBS affiliate, news with video, went to  nbc4la.com  more news.  Then RS's comments about firefighter fatalities got me wondering so I looked at  firehouse.com it has a great breaking news site with excellent pictures and links to other neat stuff.  Firehouse also had links back over to the Los Angeles networks.  want to add abc7.com to cover all the  stations in beautiful LA that I know of.  So if you want the latest news go to some of the sights listed.  Hey AB do you know of any other places we can get the latest info? Dave Not really.  Ab.
12/29	I'm am interested in working on a hot shot crew in the summer of 2000. I'm having a little problem with finding a web site for the north west crews. the area that I would like to go to is Montana Idaho region can you give me any advises
12/29	I wanted to really  thank Kristin H.   Kris you have been the only one to  stick up for us after WF mag ran its article" Foam on the Range".  This mags  journalism concerning that article was extremely one sided. I know the truth  about  the 1999 season in Nevada, I was there and so were you. The season  started early with fires that we could pick up during one or two burning  periods and manage as type 3 incidents.  That day when we recieved over One  Hundred Lightning strikes by noon.  We prepositioned at the bunk house and  stayed there for 15 minutes before jumping to the first fire. Four days later  when we returned for the basics  (  MREs, Diesal / Gas, Drinking Water and  Foam). the locals gave all of us dirty looks and mean comments.  From this  point on we had few friends in Central Nevada but you always stood by us.  Thanks.  A special note for those people who were not in the state for the seige of  1999.  Please judge yourselves before others.   I HAVE NEVER, talked about incidents I was not at or Arm Chair  Quarterbacked crews on fires.  You should not either. Yes we had catastrophic  fires in rural areas. We went direct where we could to limit fires size ,  saved the threatend homes ( with no fuels clearence )  and valves at risk.  We fought fire aggressively But provided for Safety First,  we kept in mind  the local residences and the economy ( Ranches and Cattle ).   Winter is here and were into the biggest fire rehab in history.  I bust my  tail everyday to get the work done, rehab is tougher than suppression, again  racing mother nature.  The people who do not do our work can talk, bitch and cry. The feds are  screwing up our land. I done see the whiners out donig this work but I hear  the bitching. Oh no words of thanks to any element of the fire community was ever uttered,  It was a sad situation. Not like in California were thankyous abound. Thanks to everyone who worked on  and supported our work during the Nevada  Wildfires of 1999,  We all made it home for Christmas.
12/29	RS, mentions something about firefighter deaths on 12/27 and then takes a swipe  at us all that we  didn't make note of it.  Maybe  he could inform us as to the reports, I remember  the folks up in  Worchester, Mass.  At any rate I need more info from ol' RS so I can make note  of it.  Last week at the  fire depts  kids Christmas  party all uniformed personnel wore black bands on  their badges. We are  concerned about firefighters.   By the way have your hugged a veteran today. Happy Mil-Looney-um !! Frank
12/28	Pulaski, The top ten will not provide any further insight into CPS. All the quotes are  directly from the cps book.  You are correct in saying that I am afraid of something, I'm afraid that some  firefighter somewhere will  use some phrases from the cps new fire behavior language and no one will  understand what he is  saying.  Once again I will say that I believe Mr. Campbell knows his fire behavior but I  also believe that the  language needed to describe it is in place.  Like "6" says a couple of posts ago  "Regarding CPS, nothing will ever replace a heads-up  attitude and sound decision making process.  S-290 and  CPS may or may not make firefighters safer.  You can't  mandate wisdom." As far as needing a fire behavior analyst to predict your fire behavior . Please  don't wait for one of them  to arrive at your incident and I think this is where Doug's teaching can help  most of us. The basic fire  behavior knowledge that will prevent you from doing a frontal attack or trying  to hold the ridge when the  fire may race towards you, this is what you need, not a laptop, not a  shadometer. I believe that cps's philosophy is the same as any firefighter, reference the  fire order that reads ' Initiate  all action based on current and expected fire behavior.'  Doug and I are trying  to achieve the same  goals, the prevention of firefighter death.  You may remember the struggle the fire services have had with developing a  standard nomenclature for  equipment and apparatus, why do we need a new language now? Maybe we can just agree to disagree.
12/28	Moc4445, f.g., Madhatter, ab, and everyone else,     I need to clear some things up.  First of all, in response to madhatters claim that "An applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday" being printed on all of the outreaches, this was simply not the case.  The Outreach in question simply said "not over the age of 35".  This is where the problem arose.  My friend questioned whether this meant the thirty fifth year before the age of 36.  After review by our FMO, District Ranger, forest personnel office, AND the provincial level, the general consensus on the maximum entry age (MEA) interpretation was "not yet age 36"!  She has written documentation stating that this is how the interpretation was made at all these levels.  It was then forwarded on to the regional level and they agreed with the interpretation of the age requirements made by both the forest and provincial levels.      Two weeks ago our district gets a call from our forest personnel saying that they are about to receive word that this interpretation was not correct according to the powers that be in Washington, and that she is to be terminated immediately.  This termination was ordered to proceed without anything received yet in writing.  By this time she is already 15 months into the apprenticeship program and has turned down two permanent positions in law enforcement.  So now at age 37, she is not only out of the two law enforcement positions that she turned down outside of the FS, she is also no longer eligible to get into law enforcement within the FS, which is what her ultimate goal was.     In a letter dated April 24, 1997, from Jerry Baughman ( the gentleman that wrote the MEA rules) he says that BLM has made exceptions.  If we could find out under what circumstances these exceptions were made it would show that precedence has been set.  I anyone could help us out here we would truly appreciate it.  If you could email any suggestions or comments about where to look or who to contact I would be really grateful.  All correspondence will be kept confidential.  Email me at: pappyplace@hotmail.com     I would like to thank both Moc4445 and f.g. for their support. This is exactly why we in the FS need to really form a stronger union.  Until we start to organize and support one another we will never get the type of respect (both monetarily and other) that other organizations like CDF and most county departments do.  Thanks for your time,  Pappy
12/28	Thank you Pulaski for your comments about CPS. It made me think that maybe some of the objections stem from the feeling that CPS is a complete fire behavior course.  It is not. CPS was designed to be a piece of the pie.  CPS is about using observations made on the fireground to determine the tactics for engaging the fire.  The idea is that no one will get hurt if they know when and where fire behavior variations are going to occur.  The book is an attempt to explain how the experienced firefighters have done that in the past. There area lot of very good firefighters out there.  Among those who have contributed to the CPS are: Redding Hot Shot Sups ,Charlie Caldwell, Craig Lechleiter; Los Padres Hot Shot Super, Mark Linane; Marc Castellnou of Barcelona Spain; Kern Co. BLM Anthony Escobar; Ops Chiefs. J.W. Allendorf; Dave Provencio, FMO,  Will Spyrison, Batt chief, Lance Cross, Division Chief of the LPNF; Terry Raley, Plans Chief, VNC; Pat Shanley, Capt. LA City; J.P. Harris, BC LA County; Drew Smith, FBA for LA County and many others.  From these people come the wisdom of successful firefighting. CPS has been validated by these individuals.  CPS uses their experiences to create an explanation of how to do it right.  CPS enables them to communicate their wisdom to others about, " how they know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em." They can explain why the fire is going to change BEFORE it happens and base  their actions on that knowledge. Not scientific you might say? You are right.  If the fire changes from a backing fire to a head fire because of slope change, is that where science is used? I think not.  That is where an observation made of the situation before it changes slope alignment is a size up and it is not science. If you know how to read the fire's signatures and apply that to the tactical plan, then you predetermine the tactics based on the potential fire behavior.  What is going to make the fire change? Is it changing slope, winds or fuel flammability change?  What difference does it make to nit pick the science of things? Many times firefighters know the situation is getting worse but have no language with which to extract themselves or others from it.  With a language to explain why their tactics may be an opportunity for engagement but not a good fire behavior tactic, many experienced firefighters have avoided the danger. Observations, situation description, tactical choice and constant evaluation are the ingredients of CPS. Some have called it "in situ" training, meaning it is situational. Someone called it a BGO course, a" blinding glimpse of the obvious." Most who take one of the CPS courses say, "I knew that but just didn't know how to express it." If you don't know what the fire is about to do in the way of change should you be there? If you can't explain the fire situation before  sending troops into action. should you be in command?  Can a safe escape route be picked if you don't know what the fire might do?   Can you provide clear instructions and be understood? CPS teaches how this is done and how it relates to tactics.  Fire behavior is not a stand alone subject. It is coupled with decisions that determine the action on the fireground.  The experiences that firefighters have are important to use in teaching others. To those who do not prefer or like CPS I would like to say thank you for your comments and acknowledge that there are many very good firefighters who can do the job without CPS's help.  Its OK. For those who find some support for what they already knew in CPS I am here for them too. The idea is to put your ideas forward so that the firefighting community can pick and choose their way through the minefield of choice. To all the firefighters, may you continue to be safe and continue to learn from the lessons of the past.  May you value the quiet, silent firefighter who goes through year after year of safe and effective work.  Why not ask that group how they did it? Learn from the past, predict the future........... My best regards to all. Doug Campbell
12/27	Ab,   I lie your forum a lot but does everybody live in a vacum? There were 9 fire fighter deaths this last week and not one word from anybody. I would like to take a moment for reflection and hope this doesnt happen any more. Ive been out of fire for a while but I still care.        RS
12/27	I know i'm coming into the discussion late, but I had to add some thoughts  about "Fire on The Mountain". It's little wonder that it's the little fires that kill people... or at least  the fires that start out as little.  It's also no big surprise (to me,  anyway) that bureaucracy, lack of experience, and failure to stick to the  basics can kill firefighters. We all know that effective Incident Management can help to mitigate the  dangers of firefighting.  However, it (as has been said) comes down to the  div sup's, crew bosses, squad bosses, and individual firefighters to keep  their heads up and fight fire aggressively but with safety in mind.  I think that the South Canyon fire was a mixture of all those things.  However, I'm inclined to agree with the camp that finds fault in the  leadership of the fire/area.  No matter how you boil it down, I feel that  being the IC, it all comes down to me.  It is MY responsibility to ensure the  safety of the folks on my fire.  This starts with good a good organization,  and leadership skills.  If they don't make it then the responsibility lies  with me first, and foremost. I've heard that a lack of resources is partly to blame.  Well, as an eastern  firefighter, I look at the resources available around here that sit largely  unused in the summer months, and I highly doubt the vailidity of that  argument.  If there aren't enough resources, then don't commit the few you  have.  By blaming the management, I don't mean that there weren't mistakes made at  the boss and firefighter level.  I also know that it's not easy to second  guess our fallen brothers and sisters.  However, we owe it to their memory  that we take a hard look at how the events transpired, create a dialog, and  do our best to ensure that it never happens again.  Yet, even after the the lessons are discussed, they are ignored.  Budgets and  promotions come first, the "it can't happen here" statements are made... and  people continue to die. *I* promise to never make the mistakes committed in the past... I won't fight  a fire downhill, I will: post lookouts, get weather updates, insist on good  escape routes and safety zones, and refuse an assignment that I feel is  unsafe.  I also promise to look at that little 5 acre fire, and see the  potential that it has, and never forget that ALL fatal fires start out small. I would hope that anyone that manages firefighters would make the same  promises or they don't belong in that position. Moleskin
12/27	Even though Doug has stated and defended his philosophy fairly well, since I helped start the discussion on CPS, I guess it is time I chipped in.  To be honest, I haven't taken or given 190, 290 or 390 (or however they are grouping them now) for a number of years and I haven't really read Doug's book cover to cover for several years now and have done no research or checking for my following comments. I say that to try and put you in my perspective, that I am going on the fire behaviour evaluation tools that I have with me when I arrive at a fire ...my mind. Regarding Dave's top ten list, I didn't quite get it. While, granted Doug's written presentation might lack that of a polished professional writer, a majority of  the statements of "questionable science" you credited to Doug's philosophy are correct to my way of thinking. Maybe  you could try again and explain why you think it is questionable science. I have to admit I had the same question or curiosity as Doug, in that it seems like you are afraid of something...be it change or a different way of looking at something. If I am right or wrong on that thought I do not know, however I have always felt that no matter what the subject, there is always room for improvement.    What struck me so strongly was that after I read Doug's book I sat back and said...well, yea this is basic behaviour information, but it sure makes more sense now! ..why don't they present it in 190/ 290/390 like this!  To me the most important concept in Doug's philosophy is that of "time tag tactics" and "alignment" and I don't remember anything like these being covered in the standard courses, at least in a fashion that made it stick in my mind.  I never got the impression that Doug implied that the basic behaviour courses shouldn't be taught.  Nor did I get the impression that his philosophy covers all possible behaviour factors in every situation.  Obviously it does not..and nothing does!  The standard behaviour courses are fine (although I wish they woud utilize some of Doug's way of putting things together and terminology) and the Look up, down, around as well as the new Lessons Learned courses are excellent!  However, If you look closely at fire fatalities over the years, you will find that a majority (but not all) occur prior to any established team with a fire behaviour analyst on scene to provide a behaviour estimate for the ground troops...sooo...what are they to do? ..   I'm sorry but I don't have a laptop or the old Twhatever calculator along with me to tell me what I can expect the fire to do. CPS is (in my mind) very valid philosophy, and if you are dealing with slope and predicted winds in daytime situations it will save your butt.  It is another tool, one of many, to help the firefighter in gauging / predicting fire behaviour AND when and where to expect the most extreme behaviour.  We are all on the same team here, fighting for the same things. Keep an open mind. Pulaski
12/26	Fudgie, my guess is that the legal/liability issues would sink that idea.  (Ask your insurance agent about the cost of malpractice insurance for that type of activity!)  I think the integration of retirees into existing teams as ADs might be the best of both worlds. Regarding CPS, nothing will ever replace a heads-up attitude and sound decision making process.  S-290 and CPS may or may not make firefighters safer.  You can't mandate wisdom. Have a Merry Christmas! 6
12/25	Hola Firefighters Some of the fire type retirees have been talking about forming incident management teams and making themselves available under contract to agencies needing assistance with managing wildfires. These teams would be made up of retired team members proven as top performers that held positions in all functions and at all levels and were qualified under national standards.  We have been reading about team member shortages, teams not meeting the needs of the local land managers, cooperators, and land owners, and teams not deep enough in experience to understand what they were facing. I know for fact there are some good incident management teams out there but if we are hearing it right there are problems and the field fire folks need better support than they are gettting. Some of the issues we have been batting around are:         acceptance by the ground pounders          can we contractually do it and all the ramifications of the legal issues         would our mentoring on teams made up of regular employees have value         only accept work that wouldn't take experience away from regular employees         would we fill all team command and general staff positions. there are alot more issues and concerns connected with this idea. We want to hear from you folks that we would support in order to make go no go decisions. Fudgie
12/24	Torch I never have said the Romero fire was driven by solar preheat. If you have ever listened to my story of the Romero fire you would know.  When you tell others what it is that I teach at least get it correct. I do not know what Bishop teaches, except that it follows the S-course lesson plan I suppose.  That is fine and dandy. The S courses should be taught.  I do not propose that CPS should replace anything.  Do you suppose that there could be some more information packaged in a different way that could be beneficial?  Sounds like you wish to suppress information not look at the whole picture. Where is Jim Bishop working as an FBA?  Jim, if you read this I just pulled another FBA job on the Ranch fire on the Ojai RD and did not see you there with the CDF team?  I did not see you on the Kirk fires either  Do you do FBA jobs any more?  The solar preheating was nil here on this fire. The fire behavior changes were due to wind the first night, then the slope became the dominate factor of change.  The night put most of the fire out before cold trailing could be completed. I would like to see a model that could represent this behavior. The flame lengths were reported to be 300 ft. then the next day the flame length went to 30 ft on the head fire and 2 ft. on the backing fire.  That night the fire went out. Doug
12/23	Pappy I read your comments,yet i don't know what the Forest Service policy is and I have don't have any idea how old your friend is but I'm guessing over 35. Now if you read any Demo or Jac apprenticeship vacancy announcement that is for fire it states very plainly  " An applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday" it's not hard to figure it out. I hate to sound like an asshole but if someone does apply and they are over the age limit and they have what happened to your friend happen to them I don't feel bad for them one bit it really irritates me because the block the door for other people who would qualify.Now I'm not talking shit about your friend I'm sure she is good at what she does for all I know she could walk on water. Madhatter
12/23	Greetings AB........ As I sit here on forced vacation, (isn't use or loose a terrible thing?  NOT), I decided that I wanted to send a greeting to all of my brothers and  sisters out there. And to wish them well for the Holiday Season. Keep Safe everyone and Best Wishes for the coming millennium. R5 Firecapt I checked it out, thanks R5 Firecaptain, here it is folks: xmas card  Ab.
12/23	Hi AB and Pappy,     I received my first permanent appointment (with NPS no less) several months before my 35th birthday. I started on the payrole with them the day AFTER my 35th birthday. However, in the opinion of the NPS Personnel Official, my 6.5 years of previous federal service in fire would not count toward retirement because I did not contribute. I was told that if I had prior government service in Fire (462, 455, 303, 301, and/or 081) Series that it would count if it were before January 1988. I found in the Federal Employees 1999 Almanac a statement regarding new permanent employees who have had previous federal service (temporary, term, career, or military) that it applies to your comp date and toward retirement. Also, if you had time in, and as a temporary you did not contribute to the federal retirement system (either FERS or CSRS) that you could pay that amount for that time back on your own to get credit for it. Because of a conflict in statements and opinions I am challenging the personnel official's opinion. It turns out she has no love for firefighters and screws them over on issues like this to get back at everyone. If your friend has prior government service in fire or other public safety areas her, particulary if she was a term employee at some point, it is supposed to reduce the age limit by years of service. Ultimately, if you disagree with the department's opinion, you can seek a ruling through the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) either by e-mail or by contacting a regional office and speaking to an individual. There is also an OPM Website that can help you also. Have her file a complaint with the deparment and ask for a ruling either through the Upper Levels of the Department (either Region or Washington) Personnel, and request a ruling by OPM rules or by OPM itself. This summer I did exactly that and won a DoD seasonal job when the Personnel Office of that base decided (on her own opinion) said to me "there were three qualified people on the list for the position, your number 3, and the other two are veteran's." When I asked for ratings she would not give me that, and when I asked for qualifications all she would say was "the other two were veteran's including one who was 30% disabled." What is that, a one-armed firefighter? I advised her that I would be sending a formal request regarding who is to be hired for a similar position if one or more applicants are more qualified than the veterans who apply. Two Weeks later she e-mailed me a reply with a note from her supervisor AND OPM stating that if the non-veteran scores higher, even with the 5-10-15 additional points they get, then the non-vet is offered the job. 24 hours after recieving the reply I was hired for the job. Tell her not to give up! If she was a federal cop she has time in. Good Luck!!! MOC4445
12/23	"Do You See What I See?" Said the citizen to the Dispatcher...... Do you see what I see? Up there on a hill dispatcher? Do you see what I see? A fire, a fire, burning in the night It is giving off an orange light... It is giving me quite a fright! Said the Dispatcher to the Engine Crew.. Listen to what I say... In your station warm Engine Crew... Listen to what I say... A fire, a fire is burning orange and gold you will have to go out in the cold You will have to go out in the cold! Said the Engine Crew to the Dispatcher... Do you hear what we hear? Out there along the road Dispatcher... Do you hear what we hear? A fire, a fire is roaring up a hill, We will need more help, yes we will.... We will need more help on this hill! Said the Dispatcher to the FMO... Do you know what I know? In your cozy home FMO... Do you know what I know? A crew, a crew is out working on a fire More help is what is required... And they blew out their back left tire! Said a Jolly voice on the radio.. Listen to what I say! A happy elf announced on the radio... Listen to what I say! The fire, the fire is about to stop A load of retardant, I am about to drop! Tanker Santa one-one is making a drop! Said the Engine crew to the Dispatcher... Do you see what we see? Way up in the sky Dispatcher... Do you see what we see? The sleigh, the sleigh, has dropped a split load and the fire has now grown cold! The fire is out now and it HAS...GROWN....COLD!!! Zonie-spatcher
12/23	Pappy We need to rally together for her, she is truly being screwed, and those responsible should be held accountable. Those responsible for the mistakes in personnel should be terminated the same day she is, or atleast suspended without pay for being "incompetent". Personally, I think the MEA (maximum entry age) is a bunch of crap in most instances (I said MOST instances, not all of them).  I think it would help to write to your representative, but only if a solution to the issue is presented after the statement of the facts. The solution -- suggest an exemption on the terms that a contractual agreement be entered into by both parties, the student and the agency, agreeing that they 1) retire as a primary ff at age 55 with reduced benefits due to a tenure less than the required minimum of 20 years -- this is a feasible solution but unlikely that the powers-that-be will buy into it; 2) and/or, suggest an exemption on the basis that she will seek a position in a secondary ff classification or other p.d. prior to her 55th birthday, which will cancel the maximum age limit. If she is unsuccessful with #2, then the agreement falls back onto #1; 3) suggest the MEA be increased to 37; it worked for law enforcement; 4) recommend a repeal of the law which allows the MEA; 5) allow the employee to contribute a higher percentage of pay into the retirement system, greater than the current 1.7%. And, of course, get a good lawyer. If all else fails, sue the pants off the idiots who are responsible for the misinformation, and misinterpretation of the law. Read the following: "This has nothing to do with an individual's ability to do the work at age 36 or 40, but is justified by the need to move employees out of that line of work in their 50's.  "Our experience is that there are many qualified applicants for permanent positions. There are also some limited opportunities to enter permanent employment in secondary fire positions or mixed fire positions that have no maximum entry age. Finally, individuals are free to continue to fight fire under temporary appointments at any age, as long as they can meet the fitness standards." written by Dale Nelson for Jack W. Thomas, and copied from www.rhubble.com © 1999 rhubble.com  ******how is it that a temporary employee can fight fire at ANY age, and a permanent employee cannot? Wouldn't this be an EEO complaint? It's certainly unacceptable. Even if it doesn't help to write congress, it sure won't hurt. Try this site:  http://www.nwlink.com/~rhubble/smokejumpers/write.htm. or http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/29/ch14.html. Good luck, and I'll provide a copy of my letter to you Pappy, or anyone else who may be interested in helping.  f.g.
12/23	Hey Ab, could you post this for me?  Everyone,  I was wondering if anyone out there might be able to help me out?  The US Forest Service in Region 5 has an apprenticeship program that many of you might be familiar with.  Last year a friend of mine was picked up and signed an agreement with the Forest Service to complete the Academy.  The agreement simply says that if she finishes the Academy that she is promised a job somewhere at the 13/13 gs-5 level.  She had previously completed a law enforcement academy and had several potential law enforcement  jobs (outside of the FS) in the works when she was offered the wildland fire academy position.  After she was picked up and started the Academy someone (in personnel I'm guessing) noticed that she had already passed the age limitation for new hire (by less than a few months).  The forest wanted to immediately terminate her contract but since she was already way into the program AND she had already turned down one law enforcement position outside of the FS AND they decided to support her and turn it over to the region.  The regional office also supported her so we thought that it was all over.  Then someone from the Washington office calls last week and says that she is to be terminated immediately because there are "No exceptions to the age rule!".  Has anyone ever heard of this type of situation before?  I'm sure that there have been exceptions but I am not sure how to find out where and for what reasons.  I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on where to go from here?  I have worked with this employee for several years and she is truly an asset to the agency.  Any suggestions that you could help me out with would be truly appreciated.  Thanks for your time,  Pappy

12/22	Couple things on my mind after reading through here & visiting the archvies. Doug, Dave has a "GREAT" sense of humor! I share his points along with Bishops & Beighley's & Sage (They Said Archvies 7/18/99) that your not encouraging firefighters to look at the whole picture. You can't use only part of the formula.  While fire behavior isn't rocket science, it's a little more complex than than simple addition. When one reviews Wilson's Common Denominators and then chooses a fire behavior prediction system to apply, one has to ask. "Will the fire behavior prediction system I choose consider all of Wilson's factors?" Like the shape of the topography, size class of fuel, it's ability to respond to moisture changes (timelag ring a bell?) and winds, (frontal, t-storm or subsiding) and nighttime fire behavior, because yes we have lost firefighters at night. To teach, learn and understand interrelationships of all the factors is crucial to firefghter safety.  Failure to do so is ignorance.  Fuel temperature wasn't key to the Romero fatalities, it was the RAPID drop in humidity and RAPID esculation of the subsiding wind, and it was at night. And as you & I both remember, and it happened in less the 20 minutes. IT also happened again the night after the fatalities when shot crews were almost sent into another hole, but fortunately saner minds prevaied (and for those saner minds many of us are here today).  That fire is a key reason I became a student of fire behavior that considers all elements and interrelationships.  CPS's claims of satisfaction, based on user reviews, is how magazines and swamp land are sold.  On another track, I continually see references to the 18 Watchout Situations being violated or broken.  FOLKS, you can't violate a watchout situation. If we did, you wouldn't fight fire! We are going to make frontal attacks, the wind will change direction or speed, the day will become hotter & drier, you will take a nap at night (or day) on the line, yada yada yada... BUT, when these situations occur it is time to become more heads up, dilligent, FOLLOW THE 10 STANDARD ORDERS, use LCES. Haven't read FOTM yet, but hope I get a copy in my stocking, if not I'll head for the bookstore. Be Careful Out There! Torch
12/22	I've had some dealings with reporters over the years, and I've got a little advice for people that might find themselves in the company of the media.  You can interchange the word "journalist" with "reporter." Despite what Kelly wrote, remember that there are a LOT of things that are worse than having reporters laugh and smirk at you.  One of the things that's worse is having a reporter with an agenda that takes what you tell them and uses it in a way that doesn't do you any good.  It can happen, and has happened.  Not all reporters are good people, and if you aren't ABSOLUTELY sure that what you tell them will be presented in a good way, then my advice is to pass up talking with them.  I can live with reporters smirking at me - they smirk a lot anyways.  This isn't to say that there aren't a lot of great reporters out there.  Many of them will help you get your message out in a positive way, but you have to be really careful.  Once I was interviewed by a TV crew that asked me to talk about both sides of the "suppression vs. natural fire" debate.  Without telling me what they had planned, they only used the parts where I talked about the need for suppression, and spliced in an environmentalist talking about the need for natural fire.  It ended up looking like I was debating against natural fire.  That was totally unethical, and it's just one rather mild example of my experience.  Like I said, there are some great reporters out there and I've been lucky to work with some of them, but you're setting yourself up for trouble if you assume that they're all worth talking with.  I'm just saying that you need to be careful, particularly if there's a chance that what you say could be used wrong.  But hey, Happy Holidays to everyone that reads (and maintains) this great site and here's hoping you have a great New Year!  How about those LA Basin folks - Christmas Eve in fire camp?  In the 75-76 season I was on the Bear Divide crew and spent the holidays working.  A raised glass to the folks out on the line - *clink*!  The Lurker FMO
12/22	Ab, Once again, R-3 gets screwed out of a great training program. Here in  Northern AZ, we were looking forward to Doug's CPS program in February 2000.  I have spent over 13 years in this game of fire, and not once have I ever  had an opportunity to take this program. Now with all the feedback that I  see here about CPS, I really need to sit down and take a good long look at  what's out there in the way of fire behavior classes. My first exposure to the S-290 was at Redding when there was this big  upheaval between S-290/S-390 back in 1995. The program that we got was truly  the 390, even though they had to put 290 on the cert. I finally got into a  390 class last year in Tucson, and was a little disappointed. Mostly review  for myself. I couldn't believe the large number of folks in this class who  had just taken 290 a week before and already in a 390 class. The majority of  the people I talked too couldn't wait to get their cert so they could start  their Strike Team Leader taskbook. Again, we are sending people out there in  leadership roles that don't understand basic firefighting concepts.I sent  some of my guys to the 290 class in Sedona last spring, and again, based on  what I heard from them, I was VERY disappointed. Doug, PLEASE COME TO FLAGSTAFF!!!!!  We want your class, we need your  class!!! Merry Christmas to all!! AZ Trailblazer, FMO
12/22	hey all! i hope everyone has a happy holiday. did anyone spend 2 weeks in  lovely kentucky? i went with the njffs and seen more fire in 10 days than any  other trip i have taken! for the most part it was a good trip- one  crew-member ended up in the hospital with triple by-pass surgery( a reason  for yearly physicals) . the member had no prior history of heart problems! i  personaly got separated with my crew's from the rest of the crew when the  fire blew up the slope. i never imagined the fear of what others must have  felt when they either deployed shelters or came close to deploying. we had a  good safe zone but it was close none the less. we are a type 2 crew but was  assigned to perform type 1 work. we completed all assignments and recieved  excellent reviews from management. although the terrain wasn't as high as out  west it was as steep and as hazardous as anything i have seen. who says crews  from the east are not up to the task?!  overall it was good and i am looking  forward to next season!
12/21	Doug, Actually I do have a great sense of humor, but I didn't realize that discussions  about preventing firefighter death was a place for humor.  Now do your best to dig your toe in  the dirt and make that halo appear over your head and become the much maligned and criticized Doug.   Undoubtedly some of your phraseology has seeped into the fire behavior vocabulary but the ideas you  cover are the same as what already exists you have only changed the jargon. Which to me can only  introduce more communication problems. But if only everyone would use the CPS, I can here you  saying. That would be nice if everyone knew and understood the same language, now wouldn't it?  The  language is there for anyone to use.  aspect, slope, time of day, air temperature, relative  humidity, wind speed and direction, fuel type, mountain, valley, ridge, saddle, chimney, chute, etc., etc.  No it doesn't bother me that you are trying to recover your expenses.  But why don't you teach the  accepted fire behavior courses?  I think that everyone who has ever predicted fire behavior has looked at the  immediate situation from every angle, taken everything into account and made the prediction.  Whether the  prediction was for the next shift, the next day or the next 10 minutes or for some time in between.  But the prediction has to be in a communicative style that facilitates understanding.  Maybe CPS will be  the guidepost for the future of fire behavior prediction. I don't know,  I certainly can't predict  human behavior.  So next time you decide to be funny put it next to a little (ha,ha) then we will  know your intent.  Dave
12/21	To Mellie, S-290 Intermediate Fire Behavior, is an approved National Wildfire Coordinating  Group (NWCG) training course. For available classes navigate to www.fire.nifc.nps.gov, click on fire  management, click on Training and education, click on Multi-Agency Wildland fire Training schedule  and scroll down to S-290. Several places offer the course as a part of their curriculum and it is  designed to meet training requirements for a Single Resource Boss.  Probably the best way to get more info  on this class is to talk to your local fire dept whether it's local. state or federal.  There is good info at the wildfiremagazine site that you refer to.  Merry Christmas To All  !!!                                  Dave
12/21	So this is the best laugh I've had all week. "... if you don't grant a reporter an   interview he/she will be out to get you. " Man, what is that high-pitched whine I hear?   sheeeeeeeeesh. Though that statement is *not* true, this one is: Post tripe like that to pages like this and reporters will laugh and smirk at you. Kelly
12/21	Ab, Just finished the book and as promised I have signed the cover and passed it on, to another to read. I didn't learn much more from it that I hadn't already got from the reports and my visits from those that were there. I'll leave it at I liked "Young Men and Fire" better. Hope you and your's have a good holiday season and a prosperous New Year!
12/21	To 6, I can't and won't comment on if the "Reporter" was out to get Robertson and Blume, but if I had received and ACCEPTED a pay increase for my actions during the '94 fire season I would not have a problem talking with the "Reporter". MS
12/20	Mark Sorenson, "I wish that everyone would support Mr Macleam's book and build on it from personal experience."  The personal experience that can be gained is that if you don't grant a reporter an interview he/she will be out to get you.  Ask Robertson or Blume 6
12/20	New helicopter photo on Guest 3 page:  Lama  Ab.
12/20	To Doorsmaurer: Whoops - just a little confusion here,  The Type 1 *hotshot crew* wasn't disbanded - it was the Type 1 *overhead team*.  The IC and staff, those people at the top of the organization chart in the shift plan.   The Type 1 hotshot crews mentioned in the report did the right thing and didn't get in any trouble for it. To Spencer: First off, don't worry about stirring the pot.  That's how things get hashed out.  You've got good questions. Though only one person needs to screw up one of the 10 & 18 to put people at risk, the crew boss of the NPS crew wasn't the only one that strayed outside of the 10 & 18 at the Sadler.  Read the report - it tells how the division supe, the branch chief, the ops chiefs, the plans chief, the safety chief and the IC each made pretty serious mistakes.  The investigation team found that altogether those people broke all of the 10 and compromised 13 of the 18. That crew shouldn't have been doing what they were doing when they were doing it, and that wasn't just the fault of the crew boss. I'm not going to knock your source - if that person was on one of the hotshot crews or the engines there at the safety zone that day, then what you wrote would be an understandable interpretation of what your source saw.  But the thing is, the division supe and the superintendent of one of the hotshot crews were the people that told me the hotshots declined the assignment.  If you read the report carefully, you can see how what your source saw fits in with what's written...but I'll go with what the division supe and hotshot supe told me.   They were interviewed by the investigation team - just about all the overhead were. the Lurker FMO
12/20	This special season, as always, is a time for enjoying the company of friends and loved ones.  Let's continue into the New Year with the commitment to doing whatever we need to ensure that every firefighter goes home safely from every assignment.  We can glean the best from traditional NWCG training, the latest research, Doug's CPS, investigation reports, and MacLean's novel......and use that accumulated knowledge to reach our goal of a safe assignment for all firefighters.  Thanks to you "A" for making this site available for continued dialogue.  Wishing you and all who visit this site peace and joy. Old fire guy.
12/20	I just stumbled across the web site you have set up and would like to say  nice job. It's the best set up to wildland fire I've seen I would like to say  thanks and keep up the good work (noname) Glad you found it and thanks for your encouragement.  Ab.
12/19	Apologies to all for the delay in posting, I recently installed a firewall which caused some temporary interference with my ISP.  Things should be back to normal now.  Ab
12/19	I just discovered your web page and am very excited. As a 26 year vet of wildland firefighting I am glad to see a forum like this. As for Fire On The Mountain, I think that it is an excellent history book. Although every question isn't answered, it gives a broad overview of what happened and exposed some things that many of us might not have found out. I have not read all of the letters yet, but it bothers me to read some slamming John Maclean. He is a good journalist, but without extensive wildland firefighting experience it would have taken many more years to research everything he needed to know to give the complete story. Even then I don't the complete story will ever come out. I wish that everyone would support Mr Macleam's book and build on it from personal experience. Mark Sorenson
12/18	To Lurker FMO, Thanks for clearing up a few things, but I still don't understand why a type  1 shot crew was disbanded if they had nothing to do with the fire.  Was it  because they were smart and refused the assignment?  I may be kicking a dead  horse if this was already discussed here back when it happened, but I don't  recall it.  Thanks for the info. Doorsmaurer
12/18	(New Guest photo of a B-17 airtanker drop). . .  taken in Arizona in 1979.  Ab.
12/18	Ab, Just got off the engine this morning from driving Santa all over town  inticing the kids to come over to the station to get their picture and a  candycane... Hard to believe that it's December and winter here in Northern AZ. The ground is dry, temps in the 60-70's during the day, and yes, fire danger  is between high and very high. Oh yes, our winter fire season in the  southwest always brings a hint of joy to me and my guys, especially for OT  and Chritmas just a week away. Once again we are dealing with Mother Nature's ugly child, La Nina. If the  computer models are correct and those guys in the weather office (who make  less $ than I do) are telling the truth, then we could expect another dry  winter and could expect a good season. For those of you that are on furlough for the winter and still have the fire  bug in the system (ie, no job and not going to college this year) keep a  heads up for the Southwest. We have a good chance to keep things active for  a while. A few local fire agencies will be hiring earlier than usual, and  our training programs will begin early January. For those who wouldn't mind  working as a reserve or partime firefighter in the souhtwest, let me know,  and I'll send you some information on local agencies. OPM has already  started posting for R-3. AZ Trailblazer, FMO
12/17	Good discussion going on.   It is enlightening and if nothing else,  it sure  gives our fellow firefighters more awareness of fireline safety, certainly an  edge over those that have been sacrificed. To Lurker FMO:  Yes, I admit some of the 10 and 18 were trashed, but by an  overzealous, egotistical Crew Boss wanna-be, not anyone else that was there.   You wanted to know why I said the Sadler report was flawed.  Well its  because its not accurate, that's why.   You don't see any speculation in the  report?   What do you call the analysis of the 10 & 18, considering that  there was only 1 person who broke the rules?   Who told you the two hotshot  crews declined the assignment.  I have it from a very accurate and reliable  source that they were reluctant to commit because they're Supt's were not  with them at the moment and they had concerns about safety zones.   While  both those concerns were being addressed, both crews were diverted to a  another section of line.   Does this sound like they declined?  Not in my  book.   I think we're on the same side, just not on the same page. To FMO & Maclean,   I don't think it would have made any difference if  Robertson had been there or not.   Well it may have if he took an aerial  recon.   Otherwise he wouldn't have seen anything different than anyone else.   Speaking of aerial recon, yes Shepard and the Prineville Crew were fresh  eyes, they were also the new kids on the block and its always difficult to  change plans already in place.  Maybe if Shepard had not been denied that  recon flight there might have been a happier ending to your story, John. To firegirl, I appreciate your thoughts and comments, however, I can't help  but think that if Maclean had shared his manuscript with anyone else (besides  J.K. and his compatriots), possibly a hotshot or two, that the book would be  a lot truer than it is, and would not be slanted so much towards our friends  that fall out of sky. Hate to stir the pot, but can't help it.        Spencer
12/17	Ab, great comments on Maclean's book.  I agree 100%! To firegirl, why is it OK for Maclean to "arm-chair-quarterback" fire and not OK to "arm-chair-quarterback Maclean's...piece of work"? 6
12/17	Log Padres Hotshots 50th Anniversary flier & Retirement Party for "Supe" Mark Linane
12/17	Abercrombie:   I noticed on the discussion page that one participant said he couldn't find  Fire on the Mountain at his local bookshop.   As a service, could you put a note in your discussion They Said that  autographed copies of FOTM can be obtained through the Supply Cache, internet  address: jfelix@firecache.com. Can and did.  I purchased mine through amazon.com, here Fire on the Mountain Ab.
12/16	To Doorsmaurer: That article in Firehouse.com is taken from a recently published AP article.  A few things were left out, but you can download the actual report on the Sadler entrapment in Adobe format at: http://www.blm.gov/fna/index.htm The crew wasn't BLM - it was a Park Service Type 2 crew from California.  They were at a big fire on BLM land that was being run by a Great Basin Type 1 overhead team.  Other than the fire being on BLM land, BLM people weren't much involved with the events of the entrapment.  Six members of the crew were overrun while backfiring a large (+170,000 acre) fire near Elko NV.  The rest of the crew was in a nearby safety zone.  Two hotshot crews had declined the assignment because the line was not secured.  The AP article "paraphrased" a bit about the level of experience.  The report says, "There was a notable lack of experience on the (NPS) crew, especially for the backfiring assignment....Of the 20 crewmembers, 17 were qualified only as firefighter (FFT2), and only three were qualified as squad boss (FFT1).  It was the first wildland fire assignment for at least five of the crewmembers.  No one on the crew was highly experienced..."  The BLM field office manager (NOT the fire organization as reported) at Elko was cited by OSHA, but there are no fines for the federal government when cited by OSHA.  OSHA had a hard time deciding who should be cited - they considered citing the overhead team members, but decided against that partially because the team members were from several different states outside that OSHA office's jurisdiction.  OSHA considered citing the Great Basin fire directors' board that is responsible for management and oversight of the Type 1 teams, but those people don't have agency line authority (agency line authority is people like district rangers, field office managers, park superintendents, forest supervisors, state directors, etc. - it doesn't have anything to do with fireline).  So OSHA ended up citing the manager of the local office - there's been some discussion about if that was the right person, but OSHA generally looks to hold the agency management responsible, rather than the people working for them.  After the investigation, the Type 1 team was disbanded by the Great Basin directors' board.  The NPS has set standards limiting the number of inexperienced people on a Type 2 crew.  the Lurker FMO
12/16	Ab, Dave, Doug Campbell-- Dave, Ab, what is S-290? Where can I go or who can I call to find out about it?  I found some refs for Countryman, Rothermal, Albini, Burgan, and Andrews from your list, Dave. (For others who are interested, check out the references sections of the articles at www.wildfiremagazine.com/safety.shtml). I'm starting to wade through it. Pretty impressive science and seems like some of it provides the foundation for the CPM. But it seems to me IMHO that the CPM has the purpose of letting the firefighter facing the fire now have a logical, practiced, and communicable (ooooew, that sounds dangerous) approach to evaluating a situation that might save her life.  Can't wait to visit the Intermountain Forest and Range Experimental Station, if they allow visitors.  To Doug Campbell--the term "flamomamanometer" (or whatever it's spelling) put me off a bit, too, when I read it; then I realized that you were probably overcome by a moment of whimsy (even at your age!). Personal stories and humor do make the "how to" and "why" science stuff more palatable. Heading down to the Storm King memorial to hike the mountain with some new firefighter friends over vacation. Thanks for FOTM, Mr. Maclean. Thanks also for the links to refs that accompanied your post about FOTM, Ab.  Have a wonderful holiday everyone-- Mellie from Five Waters
12/15	I guess Dave hasn't much of a sense of humor.  I lost 28 of my friends in predictable burnovers during my career.  It made me think that there was something more that needed developing.  To those firefighterswho walked into Hell I dedicated my work.  To those who have avoided the danger I take my hat off.  They must know something worth while. I found that the existing fire training could stand a little practical improvement, so I wrote CPS.  I made an offer to the Govt. to work on the ideas while in service and they elected to pass. The only way I could develop the course and book was to fund it myself.  After the initial investment I set the costs to recover the expense like any other business. Does that bother you Dave? The Ventura County Fire Dept. assisted me to that end.  Since then many departments have adopted this training program into their training programs. Since 1995, 90% of 2500 students rated the course very useful.  How do the course evaluations of S-290 compare? I am sure not everyone wants to look at things from a different angle and Dave expressed his preferences loud and clear.  That is OK with me. Go ahead and confine your understanding of wildland fire to the presentations within S-190, S-290 and so on. CPS does not disagree with the course content of those courses. It is just another take on how fire behavior was determined  and the tactics were selected from the perspective of an old dog who accumulated a lot of wildland fire experience.  If you don't like that, fine. Doug Campbell
12/15	To M, While I don't know your circumstances here are a couple avenues you may check on. 1) The Public Safety Officers' Benifits Act is compensation for in the line of duty deaths and in 1999, paid $143,943 for the loss of life due to a trumatic injury on the job.  In 11/13/98, the act was ammended to also include Educational assistance.  More info can be obtained by calling the toll freee # 888-744-6513, or 800-688-4532.  I also recommend a word search @ usdoj.gov. 2) I believe in California there is a stipulation that survuving children of a public safety officers, killed in the line of duty, are entitled to a free education at a CA State University.  I don't have all the specifics, just remember reading a couple months back about an air tanker pilots son fighting to get it as his dad was a contractor not a public safety officer, but I believe he ended up recieving it. Good Luck,j
12/15	Does anybody have the real story about an article that was posted on Firehouse.com website on 15 Dec 99 about the BLM crew that was almost overrun and the OSHA fines?   The author said they were inexpierenced...Is this true or was the author making suppositions? Doorsmaurer
12/14	Well, it took me a while to think about John Maclean's reply to me about the SC fire, and if he's going to leave the discussion I might be wasting time, but I have a few thoughts. Maclean's reply ignored my thought that the SC fire had some really good hands on scene and things might well have been so busy at the Grand Junction office that Robertson may have been tending to legitimate business there.  He also didn't give any reply when I asked him what reason he had to think that things might have gone differently if Robertson were there (besides other fires on the district being neglected), especially given the expertise that was already on hand at the fire.  I'd have liked those things addressed, but I made the points to show that there were some things that Maclean didn't know about how things work. And any fed that's ever given an award to an employee knows that it would be just about impossible give one to yourself.  You'd have to forge it. Maclean went on to accuse the Colorado BLM of stonewalling and hammered them for stating that employees should not argue with him and should stay on the high ground when responding to questions about his book.  I didn't see anything to support the stonewalling accusation, but I don't think it's a bad thing for the agency not to argue with him and to try to stay on high ground.  There's nothing to be gained by arguing between Maclean and the BLM.  I agree that it was appropriate that the state director and the head of BLM Colorado's fire program were both forced to retire after the SC fire. Maclean said that he wrote his book "for the Kathy Brinkleys of the world, not the  Winslow Robertsons."  I hope that my position that Maclean's book suffered because he is unfamiliar with the way things work in the fire world doesn't give the impression that I don't care deeply about the victims of the SC fire and their counterparts across the country.  I've set myself in my job to doing everything I can to prevent anything like the SC fire from happening on my watch.  But it doesn't do the victims (or anyone) any good to pick a scapegoat in anger, based on speculation. I would imagine that it's very frustrating to be deeply involved in a project that is important to you and others, and yet find that some possibly crucial information is withheld.  But in this case, I don't it's right to speculate that there are malicious or suspicious reasons that Robertson wouldn't talk with Maclean.  I can think of a number of reasons that Robertson might have felt he didn't want to talk any more; he's been through a lot.  He'd lost friends at that fire, he'd been heavily scrutinized by the BLM, OSHA, his peers, his subordinates and himself.  He may not have had a reason to think that there was anything to gain from talking with Maclean.  Maclean himself observed that Robertson is known to be quiet and reserved.  Maybe this is a cheap shot, but in "Young Men and Fire" Wag Dodge's reticence wasn't held against him. I believe I've seen some speculation in Maclean's book and his posts to this site, and I also think that Maclean seems angry at Robertson.  I'm not sure that Maclean would have been impartial if Roberston had spoken to him. As I said before, that doesn't take away from the many, many fine and accurate writings in "Fire on the Mountain."  I guess I'd just like readers to keep an open mind, and remember that understanding what happened is a difficult and complicated process - the SC fire was a difficult and complicated situation. Wish that had been shorter, the Lurker FMO
12/14	can you tell me where i could recieve survivor benifits info. my daughters father was a smokejumper and were estranged , she wants to go to college. are there any funds set up for her aid. he had no life insurance or will set up. thank you , M Survivor's benefits depend on several issues and I'm not really qualified to answer many of them, but here is the official Office of Personnel Management's benefits site http://www.opm.gov/asd/index.htm.  I'm not aware of any separate funding established outside an individual's retirement program.  Here's a link to the US Fire and Aviation Management page which has several smokejumper sites, http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/infodir.shtml.  You may also contact the personnel department of the Forest he last worked, an index of Forests may be found here, http://www.fs.fed.us/links/forests.shtml.  Ab.
12/13	The Top Ten reasons why there is questionable science involved in the Campbell Prediction System. 10.   “ The sunlit fuels give off steam as they heat.”  9.   “ they (firefighters) think that the fuel is not changing flammability hour by   hour, and is not of varied flammability.”  8. “ The conversion of thermal energy in the atmosphere to other forms of energy,  and vice-versa.” 7. “ The fuel flammability varies over terrain, but the humidity is considered constant.”  6. “ Fuel temperature is as measurable as air,” 5. “ I have … written a fire behavior language.” 4. “ …on a fuels-type fire, it is quickly evident that the topography and weather are secondary factors.” “ Wind forecasts are important because a change in wind will dictate the direction of spread and spotting distance.” 3. “(he) took temperature and humidity readings each hour logging them in his notebook. He was looking for a correlation between the humidity readings and the fire’s extreme behavior. He deduced that when the humidity readings were in the teens, the fire behavior could become extreme.   On the other hand , I was looking for the time and aspect relationship, trying to find the time and aspect when the fire became extreme.” 2. “The smokes had increased as the peak burning period for the day approached. I remember thinking , ‘ I bet the humidity hasn’t changed much. ‘ “ And the number one reason CPS has questionable science is one word, 1.  “Flamma-namma-momometer” I have no doubts that Mr. Campbell knows his fire behavior.  But it is not new, nor is there a need for a confusing , confounding language (unless you are trying to sell something) these ideas and languages are covered in publications by bonafide research scientists.  I invite anyone out there to study Clive Countryman’s work, Richard Rothermal’s work, Frank Albini’s work, or Jack Dieterich, Steve Sackett, Bob Mutch, Bob Burgan, Deming, Cohen, Andrews, Bradshaw, the list goes on and on and I regret I can’t recall them all.  Look at S-190, S-290, Look up, Look Down, Look Around etc.  There is already in place a way to communicate fire behavior changes, to determine which slopes and aspects will burn the hottest and when they will.  My thanks to Mr. Campbell for his insights but I will stick to nationally accepted terminology and prediction systems. Dave
12/13	Ab,   I haven't had a chance to read Mr Maclean's book,I would that I can find it here in  my area soon so that I might.  I would like to praise Mike's comments and add that with all the commentary that this has gotten(both good and bad)it will make everyone think about their safety.If this saves one life it is worth all the attention it gets. As always,I would like to praise your site and say that I commend you on the way that you try to keep it fair and openminded whether the comments are good or bad. Everyone please have a safe and happy holiday let's remember those that have gone before us and the brothers that are still here having to deal with the loss.   Keith
12/10	Ab, I just read your thoughts of "Fire on the Mountain" and found on many points you are right in my ever so humble opinion. As the book points out there were mistakes made at every level on the incident, from those on the line, who lost their lives for their mistakes to upper management of the incident who have to live with the outcome of those mistakes everyday of their life. I hope that we all do not have the need to point fingers and place blame in one direction, there were numerous mistakes made and no one person can accept the full blame. Bringing  these mistakes to light can prove to avert a tragedy in the future by placing the  ultimate responsibility for safety on each and everyone of us, be it on the line or in a position in overhead. We all play a vital part in the safety of ourselves and everyone else on a incident. For my second thought on your review my opinion differs from yours. To attack the author for writing the book is wrong. At no time did the author say that he was a authority on fire but instead stated that he relied on the help of people that were either involved at the incident or had a background in the fire field. He did offer his opinions on certain matters but guess what, its his book and in so, he took the time to research, and to find out what facts he could and deserves to stae his own thoughts. The entire story will never be told because one can only speculate what happened in those final moments. The only ones that can tell the entire story are gone and there will always be questions that we can only speculate about. The fact that it has drawn so many different responses to your commentary speaks for itself. NO, its not the final answer to all the questions evolving from the tragedy but it has sparked many folks to take a look again at what happened and my hope is that in the future it will be the catalyst for folks to engage their minds before taking on assignments that go directly against their training. Lets face it, at one time or another if one fights enough fires, eat enough smoke, we all will undoubtedly find ourselves going against what we have been taught. Yes, we all know that we should not do it but to say that we have not taken on assignments that went against one aspect of our training or another would be a misrepresentation of facts and a lie to ourselves. I applaud you for your remarks and thoughts regarding this subject. I also applaud Mr. Maclean's book, his research and time spent to offer some more pieces of the puzzle. The final word from myself on this book and the remarks that it has brought about would be this. "Anything that is written that brings attention to the safety of firefighters is worth its weight in gold!" It has done just that and in turn I hope that everyone including myself thinks before going against what we have been trained. My only hope is that there is never another need for such a book because for that to happen would mean that more folks will have lost their lives. I certainly hope that lessons will be learned and that future tragedies can be averted by all of us continuing to train, practice what we have been taught and that we never forget those that have lost their lives. Happy holidays to all and trust yourselves folks, its the one constant that we can rely on, ourselves and our gut instincts. If it does not look safe it probably isn't. Mike
12/08	Ab, my apologies if I've offended you with my remarks about the scanner. My intentions were good, however the one-liner was obviously misunderstood. Apparently, I should put more consideration into presenting my 'serious' side, rather than attempting to humor you which was my original intent. The scanner works fine, I've not had an inkling of a problem; I'm a happy customer and now an owner (for the second time) of a quality scanner. Lighten-up. firegirl Thanks for the clarification.  Ab.
12/08	we just looked at your webpage.  looks great.  wasatch helirappellers Hey there rope people.  Don't wear out your welcome now, hear?  Ab.
12/07	For dave..in a mesage 12/6 you stated :.  "CPS is seat of the pants and although a good tool has some questionable science behind it." Was just wondering what you are refering to in questionable science? For John Maclean  (and yea, I had to go back and check the spelling!) Thanks for taking the time to comment here. No matter who, how or if parts of the government improves safety practices, at least I for one have definitly improved my line safety awareness. Ab,  ...my copy of FotM I purchased is now on to its 4th reader.  :)
12/07	To Dave and Wp, I need to clarify some things so I'm not here under false pretenses.   Mellie is my real name, I am a woman, and Five Waters is the location of our ranch on the New River (downriver from Denny CA). I am not a firefighter as you are. I did not have a crew leader to rely on to read the signature of the fire I fought. However, I feel a kinship with you who fight fire as your life's calling. I have a strong commitment to firefighter safety. I also have a desire to understand your situation to better understand the changes I have gone through since August. I, like some 8,000 of you, participated in suppression of the Onion/Megram fires. (Map at firegirl's link.) I was in its smoke for 73 days, most of it alone, except for my scanner and the firefighter friends I came to know and love. Again, I want to say thanks to you all. The Big Bar Fires started on Aug 23 as a result of lightening. The Onion Fire burned down Big Mountain (that overlooks our valley) to New River on Five Waters' eastern boundary. It was always smoky. The Sacramento Hotshots from NM conducted burnout operations on Sept 6 that came onto our land on the eastern side of the river. As it turned out, that containment line of the Onion held and signaled its end.  Over the next weeks, the Fawn and the Megram burned together in the Salmon-Trinity Wilderness just north of Denny. Base camp for the complex was at Big Bar. A spike camp had been set up in Denny and then another camp was established in Orleans. (Later there would also be camps at the Hoopa Reservation and Willow Creek).  Containment lines at Quimby Creek near Denny held for quite a while. But the fire, one that was mostly fuel-dominated and burning under an inversion, continued to grow to the north, the northeast (site of the '87 Klamath fires) and northwest near Orleans on the Salmon River. Because of the inversion, it was almost as active at night as during the day.  On Sept 27, Denny spike camp was closed. Shots, crews, and equipment were moved  to Groves Prairie and Grizzly Camp to be nearer to the blowdown on Devil's Backbone. Others went to Burnt Ranch on the Trinity River and to Orleans on the north side. Late that afternoon, the Megram fire (now to the north of Five Waters) blew up into the blowdown and spotted, some spots flying 2.5 miles away to the west into Horse Linto Creek and Tish Tang drainages. Scary situation. Grizzly Camp at the wilderness edge was evacuated. Groves Prairie was evacuated in the middle of the night and a Hoopa man died from cardiac arrest. That began the fire's new and dangerous spread west and south into extremely wild and vertical country. My concerns for my friends' safety were heightened when the IAP's began to contain messages that the glue in fire shelter seams could ignite at certain high temperatures. The message was clear--firefighters should not rely on their shelters, except as a last resort.  On Oct 6 we had a quarter of an inch of rain, and some thought the end of the fire was near. Often by this time of year, the winter storm pattern has started with its drenching deluge. Many firefighters were demobed, including Larry Wright, our Branch Super who had been with us residents since the beginning and had taught us all a lot about this fire and how people stay safe. On Oct 16 after days of drying, we had another wind event. The fire came over Happy Camp Mountain ridge, jumping the containment line at DP16 and into Five Waters watersheds from the west. At this time, firefighters and resources were scarce, as many had been called up to Redding to fight the fast-moving fires there. A firefighter friend who was a single mom died at that fire. I still find myself in tears when I think of her young daughters growing up without her guidance. Then I think of the Colorado Interagency Crew who didn't know her but immediately put out a can for donations to help her family with expenses. The big-heartedness of your fire family is moving. At that time, not just the fire, but the whole situation felt incredibly BIG, out-of-control-and ripe for more deaths. My brother came for 2 days to help mark off dozer lines that were made down our ridgetop (from DP49). Within days, the first arms of fire backed down Bell Creek to the Denny Road, which had become the final containment line. Fire was encircling us. Our mailbox is the place where my brother and I fought fire for some hours one evening, as I mentioned in the first post I made to this website.  Some of us residents called Larry Wright at home. He came back the next day. Feelings of death receded, but the danger was still there. For a while, the situation was even more taxing as the fire backed down to the Denny Road along its 15-mile length, from DP47 (the "Onion Saddle"). Larry, Brian Ramsey (Denny Division super) and most of the firefighters (and camp crew) didn't get much sleep those days. Many worked round the clock. The 16 men and women (Shasta-Trinity Strike Team with Ron Armstrong and engine 5771 from Klamath) who slept on my floors came in at midnight or one, if they were lucky, and were up and gone by 5:30 in the frost and smoke. Some nights they brought home strays or didn't come back at all. One engine was decommissioned and another damaged in a rockslide at Panther Slide before the road was closed above and below our mailbox. Another engine stayed on duty all night to make sure the road stayed closed and people stayed safe. That night we had new people-those cut off short of Denny camp by the road closures. I finally understood watchout 18, the one that had seemed so silly when I first read it--about taking a nap near the fireline. When the fireline is everywhere around, you don't sleep or nap, and you're exhausted.   As you all know with your fire stories, this one goes on and on. Branch and hotshots hooking a slopover onto our driveway, fire heading for the retirement community of Hawkins Bar, experiences at Willow Camp with Team 3 after the rain, fire camp at Pooky on the reservation. BAER team efforts interspersed with logging cleanup.  And then there's the end of the fire and trying to reintegrate one's life into family, work, and the non-fire world. There's the edginess, the fire thoughts, the recall of the emotion I never felt before and don't want to forget, and the trivia that everyone else seems to think is important.  I walked through the mall last weekend and didn't have a fire thought for at least 6 minutes. Making progress… Thanks for the website, AB. Mellie from Five Waters PS  To work off the edginess, I'm putting together a photoarchive of the fire. If you have some special photos and/or a story, e-mail me at five_waters@hotmail.com
12/06	I have not visited the site in the past few weeks and just took the time to  catch up.  Interesting discussion of MacLeans book, I will have to read it.  But I saw a comment from 5 Waters Mellie that just got me going.  In Her  (His?) posting of 12-5, Watch Out #13, she/he takes a shot at logistics at getting food to a spike camp late.  Yes, I know it happens, but from one who  has worked both ends of the fire, I can tell you that sometimes just getting  food to a spike camp is a major feat in it self.  If you want a hot meal at  the same time each night, then carry an MRE with a heater or find another  job.  I was at Big Bar with the first team in, and for those on the line it might  of seemed like every thing worked like it was supposed to.  But I will tell  you it took people working 18 hours a day and only getting paid for 16 to  make it happen.  For all you ground ponders out there that think the people  in camp have an easy time, think again.  While all you have to do is put in  your shift and get a meal, shower and some rest.  It takes a 24 hour a day  operation to make it happen. When I work a camp job I cover more miles in  camp then I would do on the line.  Most camp folks work 16 hour days or  longer, when you are sleeping we are working.  We are up to make sure the  kitchen will have breakfast at 0430, and the hot cans are ready at 0300 so we  can get the trucks loaded and out.  We are up till 2300 to 2400 to insure  that tomorrow's supply order is ready when you are.  I could go on and on, I  could tell you how it was in the "old days" but won't, but I will say that  the way fires are managed today , the food and facilities provided are  greatly improved.  I do not want to go back to the "good old days." I do want to say that the food at Big Bar, for at least the first three  weeks, was consistently the poorest I have ever experienced in my 20 plus  years of fire fighting!  I did express my opinion to the log chief more then  once but it did not help much.  Wp
12/06	To Lurker FMO   Your informed speculation may be an adequate answer as to why Winslow  Robertson failed to go to the fire on July 6; the IC, Butch Blanco, was on  the fire and there were plenty of "fresh eyes" around, notably Tom Shepard. I  have tried to check out this matter myself and have only speculation as an  alternative; I won't offer it because I can't prove it.   But it is a good question, one I would have liked to have discussed with  Robertson. In one of his interviews with OSHA, Pete Blume was asked about the  general practice in the Grand Junction district of an FMO visiting fires.  Blume replied that in past years he always went to fires of 10 acres or more  himself to see if the IC was having problems, and to acquaint himself with  the general situation (FOTM, p. 157). During the 1994 sason, Blume was too  busy to go. Fair enough. (FMO: You refer to my estimate that by July 6 the  district had many troublesome fires; I would note as well the more searching  analysis earlier in the book, pps.20-21, showing that the number of real  fires on the district was a handful, nothing like the 40 later claimed by  Blume).   So why didn't Robertson go to the fire if Blume was tied up? If there's a  simple answer, why don't we have it from Robertson, and under circumstances  where he could be questioned on that and other matters?   Let's broaden the discussion for a moment so we don't get hung up on one  item.   The general conduct of the BLM on this fire was sufficiently awful that Bob  Moore, Colorado state director for the BLM, was forced to retire as a  consequence: that's a solid fact (FOTM, pps. 225-6). Blume and Robertson, to  the contrary, received pay raises and a congratulatory memo in public -- the  memo, FMO, was signed by Blume, among others, undermining your argument that  Blume and Robertson simply had money and glory thrust upon them.   The Colorado BLM has refused comment on any factual matter regarding my  book including the disparity between the treatment of Moore and the two  others, and instructed its personnel not to comment (Blume, to his credit,  has taken several reporters' telephone calls).   Many people made mistakes on this fire. Some died for their errors; others  sat down afterward and went over what happened with me, not an easy task.  Telling the story makes a difference.   "I don't think there's such a thing as healing," Kathy Brinkley said five  years after the death of her son, Levi, on Storm King. "I think you just, you  learn to live with it ... You think of it every day, but it's not that  gut-wrenching deal it was at first. It's there all the time. It's always in  the back of your mind.    "For us, if they would have come out and said, 'We really screwed up and  made a mistake; we shouldn't have done this; it was our fault.' We would have  been able to go on a lot easier. But you know the government."   That's the difference: it would be easier for people to move on.    While some within the BLM took the consequences of their actions (Rich  Tyler and Butch Blanco come to mind), the Colorado state office of the BLM  decided in early August of this year, before my book was printed let alone  put on bookstore shelves, to stonewall it. They sent memos around accusing  the book of being nothing but "insinuations ... allegations ... opinions,"  and instructed BLM personnel not to answer questions about it.    Barb Perkins, author of at least one of the memos, has been quoted in the  Glenwood Post as saying the BLM learned about the contents of the book  "through the grapevine."    "We are aware the book names specific people and makes  insinuations/assumptions that are his opinion," one of the memos with Perkins  name on it said . "We do not want to get into the trenchs [sic] arguing with him about his opinions and want to stay on high ground in responding to  questions about his book."   If I had a similar "grapevine standard" for Fire on the Mountain, the book  would be in trash cans and law courts. Similar exercises in stonewalling in  big-name cases like Waco and Ruby Ridge have led to unpleasant consequences  for the federal government -- a loss of credibility, as Kathy Brinkley's  remarks show, and violent rage. I' m not violent, but I'm mad as hell.   I wrote Fire on the Mountain for the Kathy Brinkleys of the world, not the  Winslow Robertsons.    FMO and Mike: I appreciate the remarks that you have addressed to me, and I  have tried to take them in the serious manner they were offer