DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Nov-Dec99) Return to Archives Page
01/31	This will be the last post prior to archiving this page.  As the readership and responses grow, the amount of days alloted to each page continues to decrease.  This month alone, this page has grown to 200K.  Last record page size was for Nov & Dec 99 which was just under 200k.  I think most of you will allow the time for that size of file to download, but I don't want it to get much larger in size.  I think the quality of the posts this month have been extremely high and well enjoined.  I will maintain, as always, the last few threads of this page into the next.  Abercrombie
01/31	Have added new photos to Fire2, Engines2, and Airtankers, check 'em out!  Thanks to the senders!  Ab.
01/31	John Maclean's book FIRE ON THE MOUNTAIN: The True Story of The South Canyon Fire is now online with a new website at  http://www.wildfirenews.com/fireonthemountain The South Canyon Fire of July 6, 1994 has touched many lives in the years since it took the lives of 14 firefighters on the slopes of Colorado's Storm King Mountain. Those bonded to the fire range from firefighters who survived the blaze to the family members of those who died there to the other people who worked in fire that summer who will never forget. This website is intended as common ground for anyone with a tie to the fire; it includes photos from the book, an author's note, book reviews, and ordering information. Don't neglect to read Ab's review of the book here: FOTM Review.  Ab
01/31	hey ab        after hearing everyone complain about budgets and stuff i just got hit  with a zinger myself. after spending almost 2 weeks in kentucky in november,  i just found out now there was additional paperwork to be filled out before  we get paid! it might not be that much but its the principal behind it. why  wasn't it brought up weeks ago? i guess it doesn't matter where you come  from-when it comes to government its usually gets screwed up! thanks for  letting me vent. bc davis  Reminds me of that old analogy on the bathroom wall, ain't no job finished until the paperwork is done!.  Ab.
01/31	Good luck explaining MEL and the fire budget process to anyone.  The whole thing is based essentially on a computer game where not everyone plays by the same set of rules, actually they can kind of make them up as they go as long as they stay with in the broad boundries. MEL is essentially set by Congress, but it does not end there.  Once the WO gets the money they can shift it around as they see fit, then the RO's can do the same thing and then the Forests, and then the districts pick up what crumbs are left to divvy up.  That is kind of an over simplification but that is it in a nutshell.  Hence you can have folks in South Cal that are funded close to a 100% and then folks in North Cal at 40%.  Regions throughout the country are basically all over the map also.  So, you could probably find the engine modules for example at the different levels of MEL, but since everyone does not get the same level of MEL it would be kind of tricky to get an accurate read on the number of engines that a given unit would have funded without knowing exactly what level of MEL they got. Good luck figuring it out and better luck trying to explain to folks that will probably not have a clue what you are talking about.  DEEFAMO
01/31	I had the opportunity to work with Bacon's area team in the mid-90's and found his attitude toward safety and his team philosophy to be right up my alley.  Safety was always #1 and was never compromised when I was with his team.  See "WP's" response of 1/29 confirms that safety is still #1 with Bacon since he had no air support, no roads and a three week inversion.  Same exact conditions on the Silver Fire (Siskiyou NF) in 1987.  The first Type 1 team on that fire (Started Aug 30 and was controlled Nov 2) did not see the fire during their first three week assignment due to the same reasons.  Bacon's team philosophy then was "If you think you are on this fire to bail out the locals because you think they screwed up, you do not belong on this team.  We are on this fire as guests of the home Forest/District."  Bacon's successor, Charlie Phenix, carried on the majority of the same priorities and philosophies.  The Klamath NF Forest Supervisor called us in to takeover the Specimen Fire (Klamath NF) in 1994.  She was being strongly pressured to turn it over to a Type 1 team the R-5 Regional Office and refused.   A few years ago the Type 1 teams had a very well deserved rep of being arrogant.  I believe this was a holdover from the "Good Ol' Boy's" days, and in most cases is on the way out the door with a firm boot in the butt.  Since I have seen this attitude first hand on my old District, I would like to add my boot to their butt also.  I do not know Mr. Dubois, nor was I at the Fire mentioned, so I will not attempt to pass judgement on the man or his team.  I will however come to Bacon's defense from my past experience with the man and his teams. Firehorse
01/31	Just a few comments about some of the posts the last week or so. to dubois ic ea team:  Certainly I mean no offense to you, but just becuse someone has a ton of experience, that does not mean that they are a superior supervisor, leader, mentor, IC etc.  A perfect example was a person who I worked with when I first came on board in my current position.  The individual at that time had over 20 years exp in my exact position. I thought to myself, boy, this person is going to be a wealth of information.  To make a long story short, this was definitly not the case. His entire contribution to my "growth" was, "dont worry about it".  To whoever it was (couldnt find the post) who wote in about not trusting anyone not from R5:  Bottom line is I agree with you that you can only truly trust those who you know and have worked with before. But, you just confirmed (maybe it was the way you said it) the theory (?) of the R5 arrogant attitude (and no, it is not everybody, but a few make everyone look bad often).  Before you start to rip me, I grew up there and spent my first years (my knees tell me it was too many but, great years they were) in fire there in the shot program.  I had heard about this from out of region folks but didnt beleive or see it until I had been out of the area for a spell.  Yea you have the most fires there..but its not the only place that burns. To tony@SBA and everyone else;  You seemed to say that there is no formal training or simulation for overhead teams (as a team) is this true??  ..WOW! I find that disturbing.  Even in my small area we have annual training for our local type 2 team. The main session is for the folks outside of operations, but the ops folks run the "mock" fire to stimulate the rest of the teams actions. We also have annual simulations for the ops folks seperatly. pulaski
01/31	Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach.  Those who can't teach, administrate      --- The Vent How timely!  Ab.
01/31	Ab, I don't work for the FS - and am dismayed and concerned that the entire FS looks at the meager fire budget as a slush fund to train non-fire folks. Question:  Does this also mean that fire folks who go to non-fire training such as mandatory EEO training can have their labor costs picked up by the EEO shop?  And fire folks who go to related land management training such as NEPA training get the tab picked up by the NEPA folks?  Or even better, why should fire pay to develop models and procedures to manage smoke when this is clearly an air quality issue?  This FS position seems to be a one way street:  "fire" always pays, no matter what. Puffin II As with most Washington directives, the language of FFIS and "primary purpose" is vague enough that an amount of unreasonable interpretation is left to the Regions, then Forests to address the specific daily budget issues.  I must assume the reason WO directives are so grey is to allow the persons responsible for their inception to remain blameless should they be attacked.  How each Forest decides to apply the new directives remains to be seen.  Some of your suppositions appear to be correct, and justifiable, at least to me.  The wording of the "primary purpose" sez, the department or function receiving the benefits will supply the funds.  It should be very interesting to watch if various departments refuse to budge until they get a management code.  Some of the most common, recurring daily duties won't impact fire, cause fire is already raked at the Forest level for various departments such as telecommunications, administrative, information management, OWCP, Unemployment, etc., prior to receiving their "meager" fire suppression funding.  The other interesting feature is that it is not considered "charge as worked", rather to be considered as "charge for work planned".  The exciting difference being if you have unexpected costs that weren't included in your PWP's (Project Work Plans), you will show a deficit at the end of the year.  Strong wording is included to address those responsible for deficit spending. Here's an example from an engine crew.  They happened upon a capsized diesel truck whose fuel tanks were spilling into a watershed returning from project work at the end of the day.  Overtime was incurred.  When they called Dispatch to get a management code for the overtime, who do you suppose was tapped?  You would be correct if you said watershed.  There was certainly no benefit to the fire organization.  However, one of the hardest hit departments over the last few years is watershed.  They certainly are without money to pay for these kind of situations, but, in this instance, they were charged.  Not only for the engine crew, but for a Battalion Chief, and a Dispatcher.  Just one small example of things to come, this is a bewieldering subject.  Thanks for asking.  Ab.
01/31	Everyone-- Let me preface this post with the admission that I've finally been "edited" and I now understand AZ's "heh, heh, heh" of a few weeks ago… Let me make this clear, Ab didn't say I cudn't post what I'd written. But, he did say, hmmm, prettymuch ever-so-nicely, that he was ready to "throw down his shovel and grab an inch and a half turbojet" if I did. (I haven't gotten to that piece of equipment in fire class yet but it sounds kinda powerful.) He also had penned part of his response, in which he pointed out that my post was like unto "the newest convert preaching HELLS FIRE and BRIMSTONE to the choir with her backside to the congregation." He's right, I was a brat and kinda crude yeah, I was <abject pose denoting penitence>. So here's my much-toned-down message to the appropriate audience -- the congregation of LURKERS out there -- who might have the info I need. (I promised Ab I'd be respectful, as befits our hallow-ed setting.)   I'm researching MEL and the whole fire budget process for a presentation I'm doing for a number of wealthy political activists. I need numbers and examples that people can relate to--statistics on California (Region 5) would be ideal, because this state is home for me. (Now, don't just say "oh sh..oot" and roll your eyes heavenward. God is watching. Bear witness with me…<amen>) Can anyone point me to public record or feed me private record? I realize that most of you, who write to this site, don't work in the fire budget arena (that may be Satan's domain? OOOPs, just kidding, Ab). You just feel the effects of a pretty messed-up system. But some of you who LURK on this site, probably do have a lot to do with the fire budget, especially if your e-mail address has a WO or a RO in it. The public needs to know that something is very wrong with funding for fire. <Pass the collection plate!> So-to those who LURK out there, <yes brother> who have the information I need and a CONSCIENCE <yes sister>, please point me to it <praise be>.  Why are fire people so afraid of losing their jobs in sharing information that is in the public interest for our national preparedness and security? When the law was created which enjoined members of the USFS (including experts in fire) against lobbying, I doubt if the legislators had this dangerous outcome in mind. What if we have a fire next summer or the summer after and no one comes? The public doesn't even realize that's a possibility-- Must people die before we alert them to the danger publicly?  Here are the questions I need to have answered:  For 1999, the average fire operation for CA was at 60% of MEL, to the best of my knowledge. How many fire resources, say, engines did this fund? What were the average fire suppression costs and net value changes due to fire? What were the average acres that burned? 2000 estimates that FIRE in most forests will be funded at 40% of MEL. Is this correct? (Except for those few SoCal districts that I've heard from one source will be receiving almost 100% of MEL) How many engines will this fund? (some estimates are that we're loosing 2/5 or about 40% of our engines---is this true? We have so few for IA and as resources on large fires as it is. This makes my heart hurt for us… Bet it will make CDFs heart hurt even more. Hmmm, Andy Tuttle lives down the street from my mom. Wonder if she knows?) What is the estimated (increase in) suppression costs and net value changes due to fire? What is the estimated (increase in) acres that will burn? Looking at the MEL graph, I know that more money for resources to fight fire is cost-effective in terms of less suppression costs plus resources lost to fire. Looks to me like we could save $5-10 in costs for every dollar invested in resources. Does that add up to a half billion dollars saved at the cost of investing about $70 million in prevention?  To NOT INVEST more preventive dollars is dangerous and pretty damned stoopid (OOOPS, Ab, that one just slipped out. <abject pose with head hung and small grin> <AMEN>). Please, fire budget LUCIFERS, er LURKERS (I reeeeally didn't mean that one Ab, kinda like you didn't mean to call it a "gudget" a few posts back <grin>), if you have any answers to these questions, get in touch with me. Just ask around. I am not anonymous.<glory be> I am trusted.<hallelulah> I'd be willing to post my full name, address, and phone number on this website, if people have information (just don't tell my mom)… (Now Tiny, you pup, just don't be followin' my example, yahyear or I will tell your mom!) BTW, is anyone else in training who's as sore as me? Penance done... Mellie from Five Waters  five_waters@hotmail.com
01/31	OK!  Have spent a week procrastinating about why I even entered this site. But after re-reading the few postings about bigbar maybe there is still some hope. I don't disagree with most everything that has been said. I do have a problem with bringing in specific names of individuals/teams!  really uncalled for.  As I recall the National IC meeting is this coming week or next  week--if there is that much dissatisfaction with these teams you all ought to let them know. If your on here you probably can figure out how to contact them. One closing comment to ???? about advancing to type 1 overhead & having no managerial experience--I will leave you with this---how about 21 years as a FS district ranger out of a 34 year carreer which ends the end of this year.  & 21 years of that was in the R2. dubois ic ea team I'm not sure why you entered the site either, but next time don't procrastinate, jump in while it's still hot.  Regarding specific names being mentioned here, sometimes you just need to call 'em as you see 'em.  I'm not too worried about someone (or some team) being criticized unfairly, the site seems to be widely read enough that unwarranted or false comments are quickly and correctly addressed by other participants (just ask Ab.).  That is a prime reason not to practice procrastination.  If I get the impression from a post the person just has an axe (pulaski) to grind and addresses individuals rather than situations or subjects, their mesages are deleted without posting.  Ab.
01/31	Dear AB! I haven't written for quite sometime.  I do enjoy your page though.  Recently here in R5, we lost a very good and decent man to a very malicious and useless murder.  According to the news, they have caught the man responsible for the murder, but the loss of Jerry has taken it's toll on many of the employees on our forest.  Jerry Levitoff was the Air Base Manager for the Chester Air Attack Base for many years and he was very close to retiring from the USFS.  I only had met Jerry personally myself this summer, while serving my time on the Air base during the Fire Season.  Although it was only for 2 weeks of my season, I learned very much from Jerry and his wisdom.  I knew Jerry from town, but I had never actually seen how dedicated he was to his job and his friends until this summer. For all of you fellow Firefighters out there, I ask you to please take a little time and bow your head and have a moment of silence for this very good man.  As far as his family goes, I pray that they will find peace and comfort eventually during their time of grief. And for all you men and women out there, May GOD be with you no matter whether you are doing your job or just going home every night to be with someone you love... Amen to that.  Peace To you all.. Thanks. ROSES4EVER
01/31	Ab-- Here's the acronym list. There are only about a dozen acronyms I haven't been able to find, out of the more than 180 that you all have used since the beginning of TheySaid in 1998. (Ab, search the list for the ? to find the ones I didn't know.)  I've learned a lot and I appreciate everyone's patience with me. You could have just told me to go take the I-100, S-130, S-190, etc. courses! I think I've learned more doing it my way, but we'll see if I ace the quiz on Monday that covers I-100, fire chemistry and physics and SCBA. I'm the only "girl" left in the class...the other 4 bailed... "But I ain't runn'in away and I won't abandon the line..." to quote one of my heroes. Mellie from Five Waters Thanks Mellie, I'll review these out as time allows, meanwhile all readers are encouraged to provide input.  Checkout the list here: acronyms.htm  meanwhile, Tiny is reformatting the list into tables w/letter index for easy research.  Ab.
01/29	DJ Saw your comment on Bacon being denial re: Megrim and Onion.  Since I was  there at that time what would you have done if your were IC?  Given the  situation -- No air support due to the smoke caused by the inversion for  almost 3 weeks, no access or roads, and last but not least no friggen place  to stand except the ridge tops or creek bottoms?  What would have been your  course of action?  WP
01/29	Just saw a memo from the head B and F person at the W.O. which said something to the effect of "If you give a non-fire person, any fire training fire must pick up all costs including salary.  I have not asked, but am assuming that this includes all refresher training.  Don't know about other FMOs, but my budget can't support that impact at current levels.  This is part of the new Primary Purpose mind set. (Have been trying also to figure out how Primary Purpose figures in with Ecosystem Management, and can't reconcile it.)  Bottom line is that this will reduce the number of people avialable for fire assignments, and increase the non-fire staff's perception of us as prima donas.  Decreasing personnel available for fire assignments on top of existing staffing shortages can hardly be consistent with safety being our #1 priority.  Thoughts? What you have heard is correct and from what I've heard, different Forests are handling the extra costs to their fire gudgets in various ways.  Some avow they will not pay any costs for non-fire folks.  Others are going to absorb all the costs, but have said they will demand (how will they do that?) the people getting training respond to the fire call, anytime, anywhere.  Don't be surprised if, in the near future, there is a fire camp and only the operations side shows up! By the way, for those of you blessed with a strong stomach or others (not quite in tune) who could avoid puking, or throwing your pulaski at the tv. . . what were your thoughts when President Clinton proudly pronounced how much his regime had chopped the federal workforce and budget in his speech the other night?  What programs do you suppose the average American thinks are getting cut when he says things like that?  Do the people who live in the urban/wildland interface understand the consequences of what he said?  Do the people who have suffered from fires escaping national protected lands invading their cities realize the cause and therein, the responosibility?  What a higher quality of education the Prez sez,  the sons and daughters of America could obtain, if we can just get that extra 4 billion passed through Congress to support them.  Pity some of the young'ens won't get to attend school cause their homerooms will be ashes!  Ab.
01/29	You may be interested in checking out the web site below for information and downloads of wildland fire simulations by Cricket Software.  http://home.fireservice.com/cricket/ Thanks
01/29	Ab, to all the whiners who fear the pack test and want the biggest excuse to  get rid of it! A little advice practice what you preach,  get the hell in  shape now! There is no discrimination at all w/ the test procedure, contrary  to those of you who are now realizing that fact.  The step test is only a  barometer for an office job!  No union should complain about the pack test  either! It's about "REALITY 101 YOU ARE A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER", so get out  there now and pay up and if you still cannot get in shape you have always  been a liability anyway. Jeffsz00tv
01/29	AB,  One of these days I will learn not to listen to you, but I went ahead and got the on-line version of this new Storm King book.  Man, does it suck !  I mean the content probably isn't bad but with all the grammatical errors, incorrect word usage and misspelling it is almost impossible to read.  They keep going over the same information I think they do it to lengthen the book.  It is terrible ! But I don't want to overly influence anyone, so I'm going to figure out a way to get this thing to you, just be sure that you read it so you will endure the same torture that I have. I did fight my way through about half of it but had to quit to give fair warning to you and anybody else who might be thinking about reading this atrocity of a book. DJ Hee, hee, hee, does that mean you don't like it?  Ab.
01/29	Ab, I just found your site and I wanted to say THANKS !!! IM a Local Gov. Vol. F/F from No. Cal., We were VERY busy last fire season. We send a Type 3 Strike Team out when ever North Ops calls and they called this year. We were called out 7 times and spent the equivalent of 21 days away from our home, families and jobs. I read through you archives and I would like to comment on a few things... The Motel thing, I don't mind sleeping on the ground but, when it is 116 degrees and you are expected to bed you crew down and try to get some rest and re-hydrate ??? I can't complain too much because when I pointed that fact out to the I.C., we were given the option of being released .  We were lucky, we only had 1 injury (due to being clobbered by a Prune Truck passing in an intersection.) and 2 mild cases of heat exhaustion. Keep up the good work AB and remember that Strike Team XGL-3050-C will always be there doing a good job. Your # 1 job is the protection of life and property, your # 2 job is to make friends and influence people. Lets leave them with a smile on their faces. Fireman Dan djames@thegrid.net What a breath of fresh air Dan!  Your post is welcome!  Ab.
01/29	DJ,  Intolerant - unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression. Websters New  Collegiate Dictionary. I understand that you are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong you  are. As to the remarks concerning the disappointment with the type 1 teams, I have  been on one for two years now and still see vast room for improvement. The arrogance issue, whether it is perceived or real needs to be dealt with.  I have been on both ends of this issue, and it is a real detriment to a teams  being able to get the job done.  You speak to Teamwork.. That may be the biggest problem with the type 1 teams  today.  We call them "teams" and even add the adjective "type1" to them. We  call them out whenever incidents get "too complex" for the local teams.  So  when do these "Type 1 Teams" get together and practice? We run simulations,  train and drill, drill, drill with our engine, hotshot and helitack crews.  We even decided a few years back that a 24 HR "operational refresher" was  needed at the beginning of each fire season to knock the rust off. So why not  get these teams together for drills, simulations and refreshers?  Maybe we  need to call them Type 1 "Overseers" instead of teams since every "Team" I  know of gets together and practices before the games. We even allow our  contract aircraft revenue time to keep in the groove and test the equipment  if they haven't flown in a set time.  So what I would and have proposed is we have preseason refreshers and graded  simulations for our supposed "best" before they are allowed to manage an  incident. As for Firefighter Safety......We have an organization that is paying lip  service to that phrase! If we have so many folks questioning and saying no to  assignments, then we either have incompetent overhead or have failed to  adequately train and retain our experienced folks.  As for my spelling, I apologize for not being a college graduate..but  wait..maybe some of my common sense is still intact... Tony @ SBA
01/27	Does anyone out there know of a web address for a copy of the Sadler Incident Investigation Report?  I can not seem to find it at any BLM or FS site.   Thanks! Stu Since there still seems to be interest in the doc, I stashed  copy here, and a permanent link on the "Hot Air" page, just so's we don't have to look so hard.  Ab.
01/27	I ain't scared of no stinking pack test!!    It's really simple, pass your in, fail your out.  What's the beef?  As far as the "full timers", same rule applies.  If someone fails, it's their choice, lack of comittment to PT.  GP
01/27	(RE:  Responses to Dubois's request for comments, message edited.  Ab) Arrogant - making exorbitant claims of rank or importance. Webster Dictionary. Do you guys think that those holier than thou attitudes of yours don't show through your obviously thin veneers. If you are disappointed with type 1 teams here of late get on a team and make it a better team, if your arrogance will allow you to.  TEAM WORK, think about it.  Mr. DuBois has asked for information and all you cocky fatherless buzzards can do is spout off. Put a cork in that and offer some valid testimony for the investigation. You poor guys, they see through your thin characters and so you receive arrogance for arrogance.  Seemed to me that Bacon was in denial while at Big Bar he kept saying that the Megram wasn't doing anything, but now that we have 20-20 hindsight I guess it is safe to say that it indeed was doing something. If your idea of looking out for firefighter safety is inaction then maybe he did good. While you are at it why don't you run spell check on your next message, it lessens your credibility to misspell so many simple words.  I've found that the best policy is work together, teach, learn, understand don't stand on any prejudices whether they are geographical or based on any other differences that you and the other person may have.  So now that you Archie Bunkers of the fire world have had your say, is there anyone out there who can help Warren with the investigation? DJ
01/26	So Mellie........Did you actually meet the purported authors?   Did they  maybe remind you of snake oil salesmen or what? Spencer Somebody buy the .pdf version and email it to me. . . I feel the urge to do another critique!  Ab.
01/26	Ab, get quite a kick out of your site.  Looks like you catch your share of bitchers and whiners, but that is what the site is for I guess.  Kind of interesting how each region or area thinks they are the only ones that can fight fire.  Maybe we should just build fences around the geographic areas and let no one in or out.  I have been in this business for 32 years and started at the bottom and have done the crewman, engine, hotshot, jumper, afmo, fmo thing and now have about 3 left.  I have pretty much been there in one capacity or another if they have wildland fires.  Nice to see nothing has changed - same bitches, uninformed people drawing conclusions on things they know nothing about but pass themselves off as subject matter specialists.  Maybe if these folks put as much energy into meaningful change it would benefit us all.  I know I have been there, I can bitch with the best of them and be as cynical as it needs to be.  But in the long run that does nothing to help ourselves or the organization.  Maybe some of these folks can pick up on that quicker than I did.  Of course it takes a hell of a lot more energy and perseverence than just bitching.  A good healthy dose of reality needs to come into play somewhere, also.  Maybe I will jump in occasionally in the future.  I just read a bunch of your archived stuff and could write a book in commenting to some of the stuff. Remember, we the unwilling, led by the unqualified, have done so much for so long we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.  I'll keep watching, continue to have fun with your site.  DFMO PS. You CJRL folks are welcome to it.  Give me some synthetic staflo anyday, but no GSA synthetic.  later
01/26	Greetings Ab,   Here is a pic from the strange side.The hole that is actually on fire is an electric connection for a home.All we could do is let it burn itself out.Later,Keith
01/26	Oh my god, excuse me, is this a book about Storm King written by trailer trash who brag about getting kicked out of English !)!??? Spare me! Talk about the greed motive!  Seems we met this couple when they crashed the hot tub at our motel in Glenwood Springs on Christmas night following our hike up the mountain. I shoulda let my firemen smash the guy! Mellie
01/26	Beat but not broke,  Any time you get a team away from the fuels and logistics they are used to operating in you are going to have problems.  Our system is set up advance people with egos (not management skills) higher up into the fire organizations until they obtain Type I IC status.  They rarely have the management skills, training, or personalities to be effective in the positions.  (There are some exceptions.)  R-5 teams have the reputation of being poor to marginal outside of California.  R-5 crews and engines tend to perform on par with other resources, not worse, not better. As far as R-5 culls not making it up the ladder, am amazed at your perception.  If you really do believe it I would like to talk with you about some real estate opportunities where you could make lots of money. While there are some people that I do trust I trust with my life, to a point. And I'm sorry to say very few of them come from...R-5 or R1,2,3,4,6,8,9, or 10.  Hope you don't mind if I don't pull any punches. 6

01/25	Heard somewhere there is a new book about Storm King, does anyone out there know anything about it ?  I have to say after Macleans article in the daily news about how 'Just saying no' was something new to his world, well I have questions.  It is bad enough that over the years almost everyone has a ' Hell no I wont go' story, but why do some supervisors keep wanting to put firefighters in dangerous unsafe positions on the line. Then this post from DuBois about the Eastern Area team, I try to find solace in the watch out for number one mentality but that doesn't always work, yeah I mean watch out for yourself but what about all those other firefighters out there. Whether we want to believe it or not we are all basically cut from the same cloth I mean heroes are heroes and luckies are luckies. As far as the hose argument goes I'll offer an analogy,  if you were buying a part for your truck would you buy a lightweight part or a heavy duty part.  I can hear someone saying, ' How far are you gonna carry that part?' I found that over time the synthetic stuff is more fragile to abrasion and puncture, but that cjrl sure can get heavy especially for those who are long of tooth.  Later, Dave Yes there is a new one, click here for information:  On Storm King Mountain, The Legacy, The Lesson  Ab.
01/25	I hope you may be able to help I am program manager for the Denali Hotshots a (co-op) crew managed by Chugachmiut with BLM, Alaska Fire Service. How or can you update the Hotshot contact list with the correct informaation for the Denali Hotshots.  We are listed on the National Mobilzation Guide. Location I am referecing. I open Wildlandfire page, Click on National Interagency hotshot crew page--then I go to that page and click on recruitment information, then go to National IHC contact list. Need to update the information on this page. Denali Hotshots 4201 Tudor Centre Dr. Suite 210 Anchorage, AK  99508 Phone (907) 562-4155  Fax (907) 563-2891 e-mail gene@chugachmiut.org web page:   www.chugachmiut.org Contact Gene Long Gene Long It appears that page is maintained by the Lolo Hotshots.  Here's an email link  mailto:skarkanen/r1_lolo@fs.fed.us Ab.
01/25	I may be opening myself up for much controversy, but I am part of the Southwest region Dispatch Steering Committee, and we are putting on our week-long workshop next week. I would like to hear from you'all to let me know of any issues or concerns with the dispatching world. We will be forwarding concerns to a panel on the last day, and would like to have some input from the outside world. Thanks! Zoniespatcher
01/24	There are around 15 new photos. . . one on Fire2 and one on Crew to complete the pages, a new page for handcrews on Crew2, some Apache helicopters on Helicopters2, and new airtanker photos.  You will see that the table of photo selections on each photo page except for the main photo page has been deleted.  When you are done viewing the photos on each page, just go to the top of the page and hit Photos, or your back button.  Enjoy.  Ab.
01/24	Warren, Just a few comments on your posting, did your team crompromise safety?  I  don't know, I was there long before you got there.  Was your team arrogant,  most likely so.  In the past 26 fire seasons I have worked, I would rather  get poked in the eye with a stick than work with most Type I teams.   I do  understand that the teams are trained to work and react on a much larger  scale than the type II teams.  But the arrogance, aloofness and unwillingness  to listen to the locals is what we all remember about the Type I teams.  I  still remember the R-6 team that ran it's "Team Flag" up the pole above the  Colors about 10/12 years ago and just about had a mutiney from all the vets  in camp and then wondered why every body was pissed, DUH!  Is your team  arrogant, how do they treat the local folks?  Do your folks try to get as  much information from the departing team as they can, or do they "reinvent  the wheel"  and disreguard all previous planning efforts?  When you come into  town do you bring a big bag of Taxpayer money and spend like there is no  tomorrow, when the local folks and type II's are told to "watch the costs"?  Only you can answer, but if you feel more than a little anomosity toward you  and your team, there might be a good reason. ________ I worked with Dave Bacon's team when I was at Big Bar and I can say that the  man had safety as his first consideration,  He was concerned with the welfare  of the troops and the team members reflected his attitude.  He had a young  Ops chief that was gung ho and really wanted to go off do some "unwise" things.  Dave kept a tight reign on him and ALWAYS kept safety first.  That  attitude extended from the line to the camps.  WP
01/24	Warren, Geographical Location Resource discrimination??  I see that as meaning the  trust factor and you betcha I practice it...I don't know you, no matter where  you are from, I don't trust you.  This isn't to say that you are not a dirt  slammin fool or a great human being..all it means is that I haven't worked  with or heard from someone that I do trust that you can be trusted to protect  my backside when the world goes to hell in a handbasket. A very wise old man that just retired after a long and distinguished career  as an R-5 Hotshot Sup taught me by example this practice my first year with  him in '74. No matter who the "lookout" was that was watching our backside..if the supe  didn't know him,(and sometimes moreso when he did) one of our crews squadies  or foremen that was "trusted" would somehow wind up with that sector boss or  whomever was acting as lookout... As "Beat but not broke" stated there are culls in every region..There are  also different tactics, methods and hazards with every regions firefighting.  Last I remember one of the basics was "ask a local"..this includes local  agency wisdom whether it be R5 or R8..Local knowledge is worth its weight in  gold.  Fire Teams DO need to be in charge and make decisions. They also need to be  smart enough to listen to the folks who do it every day. I am disappointed in  the type 1 teams here of late..and this does not apply to all members..I see  lots of rainbow teams made up of different agency personnel. Lots of reasons  for this happening (politics to availability) but if I was a national IC I  sure would be looking at the experience level of my division sups and  operations sec chiefs.  A  weak Operations Section Chief can be overcome by strong Divisions but a  strong Ops will never overcome weak Divisions..especially on large complex  operations. I agree with "Beat but not broke", I am sorry if you get you feelings hurt or  feel that I am discriminating against you because I don't trust you, but my  pink backside and those of the crews need to get home at night.  sign me...former hotshot and current airdale slug @ SBA
01/24	The "Photo Description" page is now up and running - please advise of any bad links.  Ab.
01/24	Hi there! I really enjoyed your web page!  I'm one of those dorks that says "Gee I  wanna be a firefighter when I grow up!"  Acctually I'm doing some research  into the field for Vocational Rehab.  I have to convince the VA to send me  to the local University for wildlands firefighting and it's not going to be  easy.  They want to ship me off to be an art teacher or something.  (Helllllllllp!) If there is anyone that you know who might be willing to share some  information about the wildland firefighters' life and job and all that stuff  could you please pass them my email?  Anything I can present to the VA would  help me out a lot!  Right now I'm on my own in this and I dont know anything  about anything.  I'm not about to pretend like I do either.  I have a friend  who used to be a firefighter and worked as a medic once for the state wildland firefighters.  All I know is what I've heard from him as he sits  back and tells his "sea stories."  (He's a reliable person but he cant tell  me all the details I need to know and present to the VA.) I was only trained for shipboard and aircraft firefighting in the Navy and I  never had to fight a fire because I wouldn't let my aircraft catch on fire. Since I'm the one asking for someone to contact me, I'll give you some info  about me to pass along so I wont be such a stranger: I'm 24, I live in Alaska in a little town called Delta Junction. (I love  this state and this is where I'd like to be a firefighter.)  I'm a Gulf war  vet who was a helicopter mechanic in the Navy.  I also worked out on the  flight line doing all of that fun stuff:  Launching the birds, servicing  them, inspecting them ect ect.  I was a ground pounder though, not a crew  chief.  Those guys were the helo gods.  I was just a demi-god.  (hehehe just  kidding. I wasn't that great.) I've always wanted to be a firefighter but the oppertunity never came up so  I went out and had fun as a helo mech.  Now I have the chance to try and do  what I've always wanted to do. Wish me luck.  The VA is one tough cookie! Goodbye and thanks a ton! -Michelle   (alaskasnow@hotmail.com)
01/24	Warren-  Don't let your position as an IC blind you to whats going on around you. I have fought large fire(as I'm sure you have) from coast to coast, Alaska and Canada to the Mexican border and damn near every place in between. I must say it is VERY sad, or should I say scarey to see the levels of knowledge out there in other "geographical locations", as you put it. Yes I am from Region 5 and a longtime hotshot. We have been called arrogant, egotistical and a few names I prefer not to put in print. The truth is we just don't pull punches here. We will tell you when your full of it and hopefully offer you an alternative. We see the big fires year after year day after day. Don't get me wrong we have a few culls here that have no business being in fire but they seldom make it up the ladder.     I have taught courses in other regions and could not belive the captains and engineers didn't have a grasp on basic fire behavior. The other instructors and myself were dumbfounded. It wasn't an isolated person it was the whole class. Many of times just sitting around camp BS'ing about fire you could get a feel for a persons knowledge or experience. Many of them made me wonder how they survived this long. For those of you out there that work every year to become better firefighters my apologies to you. I know there are some very good dirtdogs out there that I would be proud to have on my crew.     But for those of you who just exist to get a paycheck, or the overhead who can't take the criticism or accept a different idea, don't call me discriminatory because I won't trust you to watch my back. Those that I do trust I trust with my life, to a point. And I'm sorry to say very few of them come from outside R-5.     My kids like to see thier dad when they can, and thats one of the reasons I am the way I am.     P.S. Hope to see you on the front lines, that is if your worth a damn. sign me Beat but not broke.
01/24	Ab, Warrend DuBois and Readers: To refresh the memories of the early firefighters on the Big Bar, here's the map of the Onion, Fawn and Megram fires from about the time DuBois is speaking of. This is from the Northcoast Journal, Arcata CA, October 7, 1999. There's another map I got someone to pull off the web after the blowup of the blowdown -- which created those huge lobes on the Megram to the west. In addition, here's the timeline on the early IC teams: Dave Bacon's Southern CA Type II was at Big Bar from August 25 through about September12 (at which time the Onion was almost contained but the Fawn and Megram had not yet burned together.) Mike Weltch's Orca Type II took command of Big Bar Complex on Sept 11. Their last IAP originating from Big Bar was on September 16. I talked to the Information Officer on Sept 15 and he said they were moving to Orleans to have better access and to work on the northern part of the fire. (Actually, I think the decision was made to bring in a Type I team because the fire was growing and the next type I team on the list was DuBois' team.) Warren DuBois' Eastern Area Type I team arrived on Sept 13 and took command of the southern part of the fire, operating out of Big Bar on Sept 16 or 17. They remained through October 3.  If you refer to the NorthCoast Journal map, I think the area that Warren DuBois mentioned is the outermost area, i.e., the stippled areas. On the west during a wind event, the Megram jumped the control line along Devil's Backbone dividing Trinity from Humboldt County (Six Rivers NF). It moved east and southeast and overran Grizzly Camp and Groves Prairie, from which 300 people were evacuated in the middle of the night. A Hoopa man had a cardiac arrest and died.  Bateman's Southwest Type I Team came to Big Bar on September 26 (through October 15) ---------- To Warren DuBois: You made the statement, "…I really believe that there still persists, in this new century, discrimination associated with geographical location of resources," By this, do you mean that the safety investigation was prompted by a bias that western firefighters have a negative stereotype of a team from the East?  Let me tell you what I know. At the end of the Onion, I did hear a lot of grousing from the local FS people (the lookout, the Denny campground FS person, and one FS employee from Salyer) that they were poorly treated by DuBois' team. At the time it seemed like the whining could have been due to personalities and having to deal with a new group. At first I chalked the comments up to too many days in the smoke and inability to get out of the smoke on days off. We were all edgy.  Later, I heard a rumor from other sources (than the locals) that safety had been compromised, and that DuBois' team had less experience than Weltch's Orca Type II Team in the steep terrain and inversion conditions. I heard that DuBois' team, (*especially the head ops guy(s)*) was arrogant and treated fireline troops as expendable fodder, staking them out coyote for a day or two more than was normal or safe. I don't think that these comments were simply the result of discrimination against a team from the east. When I asked, several people said the problem went beyond lack of experience. Rather, it was a fundamental difference in safety style from Weltch's and Bacon's teams. I heard enough complaints from different levels, (from people on the line up to people in higher positions) that I felt the rumor regarding compromised safety couldn't just be dismissed as smoke- and stress-induced. Frankly, I was glad when I heard later that the situation was being investigated. In my time on the fires, hearing this rumor was one of the things that peaked my concerns for firefighter safety and made me start to worry about people I had come to care for.  I want to know the truth or falsehood regarding these safety allegations against DuBois' team. Who might know? Here's a list of the shot crews, other hand crews and people who worked on or supervised the lines during that time.  La Grande Hotshots: Jay Rasmussen Blue Ridge Hotshots: Rick Miller Entiat IHC: Marshall Brown Prinevillee Hotshots: Lance Honda Zig Zag Shots: Gina Papke Boise IHC: Randy Skelton St Joe IHC: Hadley Hawkins Boise IHC: Randy Skelton Helena IHC: Larry Edwards Midnight Sun IHC: David Matier Ferguson 8: Alberto Davila Rogue River Crew 9: David Treskin Eagle Pass 2: Ira Rambo C & H91: Alex Coronado C& H 84: Alesandre Delfino Coria 1: Everado Coria GHR 2: Ernie Wortman Skookum 23: Jerry Cargill SRV 13: A Mendoza SRV 29: E Rendon SRV 11: Francisco Bruce Nichols, Larry Wright, Rex Crabtree, Robt Cunningham, Tom Romaine, Bob Morris If you're one of these people or a member of one of these groups and have specifics to report one way or the other, I hope that you contact Rex Mann. If readers are friends with any of these people, ask them if they felt safety was compromised, or not. It would be good to know if the rumor/allegations are true or false. The environment of safety needs to come from the top down, delivered as a clear message. If the message of safety wasn't made clear by this team due to unsafe assignments, corrections should be made. On the other hand, if the allegations are false and this team did not compromise safety, it would be a shame to loose their efforts on fire's behalf. Mellie from Five Waters
01/24	hi people, I am aremote area firefighter in australia.if anyone wishes to swap a cap,shirt.badges etc e-mail me. typhoon@eisa.net.au
01/23	I have been watching this site for some time (4 months), kinda waiting for more dialoge on the BIG BAR complex! More then $70 Million spent but very few e-mails except from the lady in Denny.  The Easten Area Type 1 team spent 21 days there & had allegations of safety problems. This was associated with a large aerial burnout & when the Megram jumped control line on the west perimeter & onto the Hoppa reservation & Six Rivers national Forest.  Anyways the the Eastern Area Coordinating Group has elected to not sponser a Type 1 team in 2000 & has ordered a review of the teams performance. Rex Mann on the Daniel Boone NF is team leader in this review--I would appreciate any concerns/safety issues/positives be sent to Rex. The real reason I have come on line on this, is that I really belive that there still persists, in this new century, discrimination associated with geographical location of resources, which we can ill afford. Hope this gets something going. Warren DuBois (IC EA Type 1 Team)
01/23	No Name, This past fire season (one which we never really saw an end to), we utilized  "severity" patrols here on the Prescott Forest and surounding state lands.  As the KBDI's increased and fire danger increased, the local resources were  about taxed. Not only did we have to provide coverage to the severity's, but  the potential for a large incident in in the "Basin" kept everyone on their  toes. A request from the state to increase resources on the severity patrols  could not be handled by the local fire agencies, so a call to the privates  went out. Thank God for Johnson's Fire Service and Nezbit's Fire Service.  Both private companies are from the Phoenix Metro area and kept their crew  available for the better part of the patrol season. Believe me, there was  enough jobs else where in the southwest to make their endeavors much more  lucrative, but I think because thier "homeboys" from this state, they might  have felt an obligation to stay instate. Now, I have worked with both ownwer/operators mentioned above, and with  Aspect, a local private from Chin Valley. I have been soo impreased with  their operation in regards to firefighter safety, communications, and  equipment, that I myself thought about doing some part time work with them.  No Name, I had no intentions of disrespecting the privates. My comment to  Kieth was simply that if you go into the business, keep your firefighters  safe, well trained, and well equipped. As we well know in this business, it  doesn't matter if your private, fire district, or federal/municipality,  there are those crews that ruin it for everyone. The public doesn't care  what the name of the company is or from what town your from, they want you  to handle their emergency responsibly, effectively, and safely. Now, for Keith from Texas; I work as the district fire management officer for my district. My  responsibility lies in upper management, training, payroll and billing,  cooperative negatiations with the state, and just about anything else the  fire district can throw at me, in regards to our district's wildland  division. I also play shift captain/paramedic on A platoon when I have free  time (yea right!). My last letter to you was a liitle harsh, I will admit to that, but I want  you to know a litle about what you are about to get into..... Now, for part "B" also titled....AZ Trailblazer's Guide to Starting Your Own  Wildland Fire Suppression Service. First, contact your regional fire control officer or district forester  (FMO){state or federal}in your area. He/she will advise you of the fire  suppession needs of an area. If you have several local fire departments  already doing a good job of wildland fire protection, you as a private may not get called out as often (supply and demand). Once you have an  understanding of their needs, it's alot easier to come up with a plan that  complements their endeavors. You will also want to send out your feel'ers  (networking) to get an idea how the local fire agencies will adapt to you  being around. Some agencies have some major hang ups working with privates  (we talked about that one last time). No need for you to offer services in  an area that has agencies in place that may send you packing as soon as you  get on scene (some areas, the first on scene fire agency has the authority  to request, deny, or hold additional resources. This may not be the state or  feds). Equipment comes to mind next. You can go all out and purchase hundred  thousand engines or you may want to build one yourself. Remember though, if  you build an engine yourself, you must still meet the specs for the type of  equipment that you are supplying. A type 6 engine spects is the same,  regardless of entity. This includes water tank, pump capabilities, amount of  hose, etc. If your an owner/operator, you will need a couple of folks to help you get  your job assignments done. Training can come from several sources. Local  fire departments, state resources, or the feds come to mind. Most training  oportunities come in the winter, early spring in most parts of the country.  Several web sites on wildland training are available. Most are updated  monthly. Also, most of the training is relatively inexpensive. Start off  with the S-I 100/200 level classes. And no, you do not have to go through  all of the S100 classes to start taking S/I200 level classes. The more  training that you take and the more experience you gain, the safer you will  be when you IA a fire. Contact a bookkeeper for your books, and contact your insurance carrier as  to their thoughts and recommendations towards your new business. They my not  want to carry you, but should be able to recommend an insurance carrier. Once you have the majority of the items mentioned above, remember that  district forest guy. Get in contact with him/her and initiate that  Cooperative Agreement (contract). This legal document will list the  equipment that you are providing, an amount of money negotiated for services  rendard and for personnel (if your personnel are seperate billing from your  equipment), insurance and compensation companies in case equipment becomes  damaged off a fire or someone gets hurt or sick, and the state/federal  agency's inpection and approval for your equipment. Doesn't sound all that bad. So, if you got that all american entraupaner  idealistic mind of yours on the right track, give it a shot. As we all know,  because of LaNina, the southwest and the southeast is going to be the big  $makers this year. Let me know what else I can do for you! AZ Trailblazer
01/23	Hello, again..Ab, very interesting conversations going on this site, I enjoy the fire fix that I get on it, during this...precip-less winter.  But, back to the pack test, I've been reading about the test working well, eles where, but here...in California, R-5....it just isn't happening. Slurpy Drinker, said it well...what will happen to the fulltimers, who don't pass?  I have worked in Suppression, since, the Hog Fire  (1977)..which by the way, I would have loved to carry out synthetic hose on that one, and I know...alot of people, who will be hard pressed to pass it. I can pass the test, have been able to for a couple of years now, since I first heard of it, but... plenty of people though, are hoping it will go away. Why is the region dragging their feet? Is it possible, that..it might turn into a serious problem? I have seen on many job vacancies, with other agencies..that it is required, the step test is out, but here...I just don't get it. But yes, we are waiting for the big word...is it in or is it out, this season. I say, lets get on with it and get ready for the fall out.  It amazes me how fast we are, to get rid of a temporary who fails the step test.  What will we do with the fulltimers.....baby them, and in the mean time, our red card list of available people will dwindle...and if we have another hot season...filling orders might get tight. I know I sound, pretty negative, but I have waited for years for the step test to be eliminated. I just don't get, why a region, that prides itself in being a front runner in so many areas of suppression...is having cold feet?  M2
01/22	Hope I'm not too late to weigh in on the hose thing. Just gotta take issue with the advice to find a new job if your engine uses synthetic on IA.  Try to remember that not every part of the world has 30 miles of road in every square mile.  Its not unusual for us to lay out 2500 feet of trunk before you even think of putting in the first lateral.  If I made my crew do that with CJRL, I hope they'd find a new way to make money. R1 Engine Foreman It's never too late to speak up here.  There are many kinds of initial attack, some dictate delay and others are urgent.  I've spent time attacking high rate of spread, rapid deployment, immediate need attacks with structures threatened and also the type you mention where you have extended time and distance considerations just to arrive on scene.  In my earlier comments I was addressing the immediate need, close quarters type of IA, but I failed to say that, didn't I.  A distance of 2500 feet seems more descriptive of a trunk lay than an initial attack line.  CJRL withstands> Transfer interrupted! ion than synthetic hose.  Period!  If those qualities aren't an issue, sure, I'd rather carry 400 feet of synthetic than cjrl.  Abercrombie
01/22	OK-- Fess up whoever you are! I got home from San Francisco a little while ago to quite a number of voice mails and several e-mails accusing me of somehow getting the picture of the Denny Road THANK YOU sign out on the OFFICIAL FS internet! Friends said they got it as some part of a large mailing. Others said they got it as a forwarded message. One even accused me of hacking into the system. All were quite enthusiastic! So, since I only sent it to Ab and this site, someone else, dare I say our resident WEB GODDESS, must have done this wonderful thoughtful deed! THANKS! and thanks AB. What a wonderful circle of people you all are!  Mellie from Five Waters PS. Taking confessions at Five_Waters@hotmail.com
01/22	New photos will be added today and I will be working on deleting and reposting the "Guest" series into their specific subjects matters.  Hit your refresh button frequently during the next couple of days to insure you see the latest updates.  This project is going to allow me plenty of opportunities for creating bad links, so let me know if you find any (after the couple of days is up).  I'll also add a couple more topic pages such as ""Logos" and "Equipment".  I've tried to keep each photo page at 25 thumbnails for faster downloading and would like to hear comments on how that is working for you.  Conducting this site from a backwaters area and on the road, I'm frequently reminded of slow transfer rates.  As always, your comments, positive or otherwise, are encouraged.  Ab. PS:  Speaking of "reload" or "refresh" (R&R) buttons, I've been contacted this week by several people complaining that when they connect to a site, let's use a weather forecast site as an example, they always get an old forecast and have to hit the R&R buttons to get the newest update.  Here's how to correct that inconvenience.  Your version of Netscape or Internet Explorer may be a little different, but I think they are all pretty close through the last few updates. Netscape:  From Main Menu, Edit, then Preferences, click on the + by the Advanced, then click on Cache.  On the right hand side/bottom where it says,"Document in cache is compared to document on network", click one of the radio buttons to suit your fancy.  "Once per session" is what I use, but if a site you visit frequently also changes rapidly, you may want to use the "Every time" option. Internet Explorer:  From main Menu, View, then Internet Options, make sure the General tab is selected, then Settings in the middle of the page.  At the top of the page are similar options to Netscape.
01/22	(RE:  Pack Test) Im wondering what would happen to the fulltimers if they don't pass? I Know about two years ago some engine crews had at least 1 to 2 people fail per engine. I see also, shortage of other forest service personel also. The forest Service is going to lose out on alot of single resource personel. Slurpy Drinker
01/21	AZ, Sorry to hear of your bad experience with "Privates"  I question the legitimacy of those you meet in 96.  R6 has the thickest contract in the nation and Private Contactors must meet the same training requirements as Agency Personnel.  Our Engines and equipment endures rigorous inspections.  Valid R6 Contractors had in 96 and do today come equiped with "Red Carded" Personnel and proper equipment including PPE, Fire shelters and Radio"s. On another note, if I may be critical of the System, We are the last hired and first fired, experience is hard to come by.  I have far more Wildland experience in my local rural fire dept than on Incidents. Integrate Privates into your Team and you will find that we are hard working, dedicated and willing firefighters not afraid to do the dirty work.  We love this kind of work, money is secondary but necessary. I have been in this game since 91 and hopfully my Strike Team might show a profit next year.  We keep hearing how Privates will be playing a bigger role in the future-------When?  I have trained enough Firefighters to supply a small army only to lose them to "burger flipping for lack of work. Enough negative, Lets work together for safety an effectivness.  And yes I am a certified instructor. no name
01/21	Well, I guess it is offical now, the 14 day assignment is now in place.  I  was told by someone in the big bunkhouse that they had the letter in hand  announcing the decision.  It will be a full 14 day fire assignment, travel  will be exclusive of the assignment, so it looks like so instead of 21 days  away from home, it could be 17 or 18.  I was not told if the R & R policy has  changed.  I am sure we will find out more as time passes. WP 10-4 WP, as reported here on 01/06.  Ab.
01/19	In other news. . . I am currently being pestered by intitutions,organizations, and corporations requesting permission to use photos from this website.  It appears as this site grows in global awareness, there are many willing to pay for the rights to use our photos.  I have refused all rights to any photos shown on this site not taken by me unless I have contacted the photographers responsible. The header on this page is true.  I am without any kind of readers list enabling me to contact those who have volunteered photos.  I will begin keeping a database (private of course) of those of you posting photos.  For the pics already sent in, I will post a message here saying someone has requested the rights to their photo(s).  The requesters are being a little vague on how much they will pay, but I think they should be charged based on several parameters.  Basically, who they are, profit or non-profit, national or local, etc. Bottom line is that your photos are being seen from a much larger audience than you may have suspected and they may be worth money to you.  The most common current requests are asking for pics of firefighters wearing their personal protective equipment. Abercrombie
01/19	Attention!  This is good news for some of you who have questioned the existence of such a program.  A new training item from a long time reader, contributer, and supporter is now available from this site.  This is a full MS PowerPoint Program for S-130, Firefighter Training.  The program file is quite large at 6+MB.  There are no charges for the download or use of this program and it may be downloaded here: S-130.  A permanent link will be created on the "Programs" page.  If you would like to contribute PPT programs you have done to the cause feel free to contact   gobelj@mail01.dnr.state.wi.us   Ab.
01/19	OK, can't keep quiet any longer..been reading, hearing and seeing lots of  "just say no" bandwagonning.  Nothing wrong with just saying no..all those  bushes and trees WILL grow back..houses WILL be rebuilt.  Flesh is harder to  replace..I don't want to be the supervisor that tells a kids folks that I  burned up there little one.....BUT along with just saying no we have a  responsibility as firefighters to figure out and offer fire management  alternative ways to accomplish the objectives.....an ex-longtime hotshot and  current airdale slug... I'm glad your button was finally pushed.  An occassional push of a button on those who think they know it all, those who lurk, and even those who think themselves quite comfortable here is always appropriate.  That is my mission here!  I appreciate your response, and agree with your thoughts. Sometimes I don't like an assignment.  I normally try to offer alternatives, I may just say no, other times I just nod my head and smile till they go away. . .  and do it my way.  Ab.
01/19	Keith, email me at fire2boo@inu.net and I'll see if i can get you headed in the right direction in Texas. That is if AZ hasn't scared you off.
01/19	Hello, Just to let you know we have started a wildland firefighter museum in Capitan,N.M. home of the famous Smokey the Bear. We recieved our M.O.U.from the U.S.F.S. and our looking forward to hearing from all interested. Please see our Home page under our shop name for right now until we get the museum page complete.  www.smokeybeartoys.com or www.smokeybear-shop.com.
01/19	To Mellie: Seems that you've found that fire training you were looking for, EXCELLENT!!!!!!! Pass your classes, add 45 pounds to that pack and cover your 3 miles in 45 minutes and you are mostly there. Then either go to: www.fs.fed.us/people/employ    or call toll free 1-877-813-3476 or e-mail employment/r4,ateo@fs.fed.us, and request an employment package if you are interested in seasonal firefighting for the FS. th Six Rivers, Shasta T and several other northern forests are using the national recruitment for the filling of temp fire, and other, positions. And find your local fire staff folks and make your intrest known!!!! A face with a name always helps....... The physical agility I mentioned for Feds (FS yet ? ), is the pack test, or to be politically correct, the work capacity test. 3 miles, 45 minutes, 45 pounds........... to AZ :  You are correct in you assesment of CJ as being much more durable than SOME pure synthetic, but as MS has said....If you stick to basics you almost cant get into trouble, pay attention to your equipment!!!!!!! Inspection, cleaning and replacement are the keys here, you dont run your tires until they are on the cords, do you? I hope not, and if you use your equipment to that level of wear then as they say...  the shit will hit the fan.  My point is: that if folks are paying attention to what they are doing, well trained as to what to look for and not everyone head down in a stump hole then you can avoid many, many problems, after all, fires dont just explode into a conflagration without some indicators just like cars dont explode except in hollywood. I for one will trade twice the weight for twice the reach when my crew is laying hose and they are drilled and drilled and drilled in the protection of that line. And consequently the care afterwards, (they hate that part) its a life line as well as a supply line. If the water runs out?? been there done that!!! Start throwing dirt or know where your escape route and safety zones are! Back to basics and take advantage of technology! I remember when there were similar disscussions regarding class A foam.........................   R5Firecapt
01/18	Ab, Here's a memorial picture that a neighbor downriver from Denny asked if I could send--in case some of you who helped our community didn't get to see it. This sign on the Denny Road thanks firefighters of the Big Bar Complex of fires, Summer/Fall,1999.  Also--R5 Fire Capt, What kind of physical agility testing is there? mentioned in your post(1/17)? We haven't started pulling or rolling hose in class yet and I know there are performance tests associated with that later. Should I be asking questions about agility connected with those tests?  I've been working out by power walking three miles a day and dancing. I'm planning to add a 35 pound pack to my walk soon, then plan to set an uphill course some weeks after that. Should I be lifting weights also? (A firefighter friend says the step test is more psychological than anything if you're in good shape.) None of the instructors have mentioned training yet, but the second week of class starts today and I think they've been trying to see who sticks with it.   Wow, you guys train a lot! Me too, at this point...:) Ain't it satisfying to feel a little burn in your calves! Mellie See the photo here:  Denny Road Dedication , and on the Guest3 Photo Page.  Ab.
01/18	Hey Ab! A wet Calif. greeting to you. I just could not leave the great Y2K hose debate alone. Synthetic hose is ok for structural type firefighting, we use 13/4" synthetic on our type 1 equip. and have found it to be a great asset . It is light, easy for one person to maneuver in the narrow confines of a single family dwelling and can be re-racked wet. In Oct. when we re-supplied our type 3 engine in San Diego, we were given synthetic hose from a CDF station's hose cache. I did not want to use it, but after laying all 1200' of 11/2" cotton jacket and all 800' of 1" laterals, I had no choice. Needless to say, upon our return to good old FKU ( ICS speak for Fresno/Kings),we changed the synthetic out for good old cotton. Cotton vs. synthetic? To each his/her own. Just be aware of where the hose is laid, clean and dry after each fire and test it each spring!  Stick to the basics of hose and you can't go wrong. Engineer Emmett CDF Fire
01/18	oh crap!! Sorry to have caused such a ruckus RE the synthetic's. To put an end to this  whole thing, at least on my end, 'cause I'm sure this will not be the last  comment on hose, since the fire season is right around the corner, let me  tell you the story about the type 3 getting it's paint blistered and melting  the code lights. This occured last year on an unnamed (protecting the inocent!! :o)BLM  response area somewhere in the Arizona high desert. Small lightning strike went on to become a a fire about 20 or so acres. Fire in itself was  contained and an "experienced" federal (protecting the agency, and no, it  wasn't the BLM folks!) engine crew was in the process of mop up. They  deployed about 100' of 11/2" synthetic hose line that was utilized during  the initial attack of the fire. This line remained employed as the crew  mopped up. Apparently, as the story was told to us, somehow the line was  stretched across some "hot vegetation" what ever the hell that means,  causing the hose to burst. At the same time, the wind shifted creating a  flare up of an island of unburned brush to take off to the races. The engine  crew was operating in the black, but had position the engine in close  proximity to the island, resulting in, well, let say, an embarassment to a  local crew. (Anyone tell these guys about burnout op's??) The "accident report" which was held internaly by the fed agency in  question, commented on the "fact" that if the crew had deployed the "much  stronger and reliable" cotton jacket hose, this incident could have turned  out differently. Sounds like a bunch of BS to me, but, like I said this is what was told to  me. Now, in our case (my district),yes you are absolutly correct in stating  that our crew was too close to the fire. After some corrected "can do"  attitude adjustment, and some remeadial training on running attacks with  engines, my people are a little more educated as to the limitations of all  hose lines deployed, not only on our rigs, but everyone else's hosepacks and  loads in the county. In closing, I truly believe that cotton jacked hose is more sturdier (is  that even a word?), more reliable, and can stand up to the constant  deploying and reloading and cleaning that occurs on every fire. Also bear in  mind, I also believe in the fact that cotton jacketed hose last much longer  (seasons or years, what ever you prefer) than syntetic's. That comes into  play when it's budget time! Ok, the ball's in your court! AZ Trailblazer
01/17	Give me a break! The synthetic hose caused the fire to burn up the Engine! The synthetic hose caused the fire to jump the road and required escape behind the Engine! I am glad that I am nearing retirement age. What ever happened to individual responsibility, what ever happened to baseing tactics on the current fire behavior, what ever happened to posting lookouts, Etc. Hose burns up because something went wrong. It is not the hose's fault. I have less problems with synthetic hose than cotton hose. When synthetic hose gets a pin hole all that happens is that you loose a little water. When cotton hose gets a pin hole you know it will break very soon. Don't blame the hose! Look at why the hose burned up and learn what you did wrong! GO BACK TO THE BASICS! MS
01/17	hey ab! its been a while. that's my ugly backside in the NJ crew shot for  1-14-2000. myself and my crewboss was the ones cut off by a blowup. in the  picture, i was looking for a place to change my underwear! on the comments on plastic hose-i love it. we have drug our hose through hot embers, across hot  exhaust and anything else you can think of. any type of hose can fail at any  time. it takes responsible fire fighters to make any piece of equipment work.  if the time is taken to inspect your hose after an incident your chances of  failure will decrease. many times i have seen hose (equipment in general)  thrown back on only to have it fail at a later time because the hose wasn't  inspected! crap happens on the job! i have had cotton jacket hose fail for  the same reasons as plastic hose. different strokes for different folks. back to the picture: the incident was filmed by a news crew and the footage  was to be sent to Boise to be turned into a training video. i would like a  copy of the raw footage for training in my department. any clues on how i  could get a copy? or anyone who could help me get a copy?                                                             keep up the good  work ab!    BC Davis
01/17	Earlier this month I wrote an opinion piece for High Country News's  wire service about the Sadler Fire, based on the official investigative  report by the BLM and the subsequent report by OSHA.  Since that piece  appeared, questions have been raised on this website and elsewhere about the  integrity of the investigative report  -- whether it told the "whole story,"  and even whether it was fundamentally true.     Further, it appears that for several decades crews have regularly  exercised the option to Just Say No. I was aware that refusals occasionally  happened in the past, but they appear to have been more common, at least in  recent decades, than I knew or reported.      This is a serious enough situation to warrant a more thorough reporting  job than the one I did for the opinion piece.  I am doing a more extended  story on the Sadler Fire for Wildland Firefighter Magazine -- they asked and  I accepted.      It is in everyone's interest to have a thorough, independent account of  what did and did not happen on the Sadler Fire, regardless of whether it  confirms and expands on, or conflicts with, the official version of events. I  cannot tell the story without cooperation from you in the firefighting  community. Anonymous accusations don't make it.     What actually happened when the hotshot crews "declined" the assignment  to light the backfire -- who said what to whom? What were the incident  objectives for that day? What sort of outside pressure, from ranchers and  politicians, was on the supervisory team?  What happened on the National Park  Service crew that resulted in their accepting an overly dangerous assignment?      If you have factual information -- personal knowledge about the fire,  sources who might be helpful, that sort of thing -- please e mail me at  MacFisher@aol.com.      John N. Maclean
01/17	fi> Ab, I have to take a bit of time to bash at you a bit regarding your comments about synthetic hose and finding another job........... I have been running engine crews for 10+ years now, (oh god has it been that long?), and using synthetic based hose for initial attack and mop up. Yeah I must admit we've had our failures, mostly due to somone not paying attention to what they were doing, but nothing as severe as that mentioned previously in your site. If your hose melts you are too damn close! Or , you're not using reliable hose type. Spend a little extra on someting that wont melt in the sun! Cotton jacket has its place for sure but the new combinations are the wave of the future.  As for the comment on the smaller, etc persons, yeah that is true to a point , however anyone that can pass the physical agility testing deserves to be able to try the job. I've had large, well built men give it up because it was too difficult and small built women kick some serious ass on initial attack and lay CJ and Synth to make you cry as well as take more smoke, throw more dirt and extinguish more fire than some other crews I've not had the pleasure of working with. So give up the "little" attitude! I would give my first ot for some of the small people I've had on crews to still be with me now! All of which stood less than 5'6" and 110 lbs. I guess its another case of the best go elsewhere and get "real" jobs where they can have family and "free" time. The rest of us, who have had the unfortunate malady of  hoping that someone will learn about us and love us for who we are. Fear not though! We firefighters are becoming the most respected and  popular people in this country, in part due to web sites such as this and some of the publicity we are getting these days. ( Did you check out some of the fire fighter toys offered this x-mas season?) And of course due to some of our very dear fans such as 5 Waters! Thanks! And dont get me started on Fed rake offs! My forest had a rake off to the tune of 600K for the coming year, we've been researching where it went.......... still can't find it. maybe its the new supervisors office??? Yeah that impacts us Big Time, I cant even buy a freakin' roll of chute cord more or less go to some cutting edge training. Heaven help us if we hire a new engine capt. from any distance, last hire cost us 20K!!! That screws me for damn near 1/2 a year salary, or temp fire fighters for a fire season! And...... Wo is talking about why we cant support large fires...........and ....... beefing up initial attack, at 60% of MEL??? Who are they kidding??? Themselves I guess......... Well enough soapbox . Keep your heads up and looking around everyone, if it doesnt snow we'll all be back in norcali next season, that is if we're not living in so cali first!   R5Firecapt I stand corrected regarding the adjectives I used referring to physical limitations of firefighters.  They were inappropriate and failed to project my intended thoughts.  Hasty, late night maintenance of the site may be the blame.  I realize and agree with the ideal that "desire" and "committment" in a firefighter can overcome initial perceived physical limitations.  I have taken the liberty of modifying my comment, but am unable to change my opinion of synthetic hose near the fireline on initial attack.  Ab.
01/17	Ab, Thanks for the info on the GGNRA "3" crew that was involved in the Sadler  Incident. My letter to this forum made it to the Presidio Fire Department  and the wildland folks across the bridge over at the Marin Healdlands and I  got the answers I was looking for from my old fire brothers. Again, thanks. To the folks that are still using or thinking of spending (waisting) $ on  synthetic hose, please, for the safety of your crews, DON'T EVEN THINK OF  PUTTING THAT CRAP ON YOUR ENGINES!!!!! After one local  incident which  resulted in the loss of a type 3 engine and some pretty excited  firefighters, our district ONLY deploys cotton jacketed 1" and 1 1/2" hose.  I still know that the FS guys up the road utilizes "synthetic's" in their  hose packs, but I think thats about it. My guys do have to watch out for  these hose packs, due to the interagency coop that we have here. We have  thrown hose packs for a mile to find that we were handed "syntetic's" toward  the hotter part of the flanks. What a lesson that was! Keith, Your question regarding private contractors and info on it, first and  foremost, watch what you get yourself into. Yea, the potential for big money  and some great excitment may sound inticing, but as time and weather  patterns move on, you may have a lot of overhead (not fire camp overhead)and  some very expensive equipment sitting out on your lawn not doing anything as  wet thunderboomies come rolloing into your area. Also, for God's sake, PLEASE train your people to NWCG standards. I  personally (speaking as a strike team leader) have a lot of reservations  when dealing with "privates". In '96 on the Horseshoe Fire on the Coconino,  my engine met up with some "private" from R-6. These poor fools had no idea  where they were, no radio, and not a single shelter amongst the three  firefighters. I was the engine boss on that particular assignment and  quickly brought the situation to our strike team leader. Come to find out,  they were actually assigned to another division, had no idea who their  strike team leader was, or, you'll love this one, the NAME OF THE FRICK'IN FIRE!!!!! Just who in the hell let these guys out of fire camp in the first  place?!?!?!? Scary stuff, my friend, very scary stuff. Here in AZ, Rural/Metro is the biggest private wildland contractor in the  state. We have a few "mom & pop" operations here (similiar to Oregon's I-5  corrider group), but they payed their dues and promote a very professional  and highly trained group of guys and gals. Once you get your capital expenditures (equipment) and training your newly  hired firefighters, remember as a private, your responsible for all the book  keeping, insurance, the political influence (networking) needed to keep the  assignments coming in, and will be held accountable for any accidents,  foul-ups, or bar room brawls that your firefighters may encounter during  their assignment. A good sound business plan will help out a lot. Oh, by the  way, did I mention that you may want to retain an attorney at law for any possible litigation that may come knocking on your door. God, I love working  for the County!!! :) Kieth, in all seriousess, I don't mean to discourage your future endeavors  as a professional contract firefighting group, but depending on how involved  you want to become in this business, play around as a county or fed  firefighter to gain the inside knowledge of the upper management side of the house. Good luck and be safe! AZ Trailblazer
01/17	Hey Ab I found this one while shuffling through some old photos at my folks.......... Its Quincy Ca. in the 40's at my best guess. The fire scar is behind what is now Feather River College and stretches nearly to Snake Lake. I found it interesting and hope that maybe someone would know the name of the burn and maybe the year? All of my sources were either not there due to war or not born yet... Enjoy! Quincy Fire-40's   R5 Firecapt Great old photo, hopefully an "old dog" will know.  Ab.
01/17	All  National Park Service collateral duty firefighters who are age 55 or over now fall under NPS Directive P1815(2653).  This means that you will not be able to participate in any arduous duty fire activities. This action may have an adverse effect on your job mobility and may be considered to be an act of age discrimination.  If you agree, please write to your congress persons using the attached draft letter or one that you compose.  Information is being gathered to see how many are affected by this action. If you are affected by this action, please write sending your name, age, e-mail address, and the NPS facility that you are employed at to:           <twooldforfire@netscape.net> Also see the document included with this message here:  NPS Directive Response  Ab.
01/16	To Fireball,   We tried the synthetic attack lines here for awhile and gave them up real quick.We found out that they were real susceptable to burnthrough,luckily as in the case you mention no firefighters were hurt.The other thing we found is that when the synthetics get wet,they are about as easy to hold on to as an eel.   On another note I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.I have been trying to get information on starting a firefighting contractor group here in TX.I can't find anyone in our state forestry service that can tell me where to start at.Any help would be greatly appreciated.   Thank's,Keith
01/15	HI Ab, I have been quiet for a while but now it is time to speak.  I don't know if John Maclean is still looking at this site but this is directed to him.  "Wildland firefighters can just say no" was a poorly researched article and is not factual.  I personally liked John's book.  Not all of the facts were reveiled but it is a good historical record.  But why this editorial?  Were you trying to sell more books?  I have been a wildland firefighter since '74.  Saying no has always been a option to those who are concerned about there lives.  I have done so many times.  The worst that has happened is that I was assigned to a mop up Division. Big deal, at least I am still alive.  Every summer I hear more and more stories about crews having to say NO!  Mr Maclean, you should be asking WHY!  WHY are fire supervisors still trying to send crews into death traps!  WHY are these fire supervisors not retrained or removed from there positions!  I am tired of hearing about crews that need to say NO! MS Speak on MS!.  Ab.
01/15	Here's something I never heard of,  but could affect us all, as here in Southern California more and more engine crews are using exclusively synthetic 1 1/2" hose for attack lines :  after speaking to one of the investigators of a near miss in south San Diego County where engines were firing and holding  a road when a flare-up impinged on their position, it appears that in the heat of the battle the 30' 1 1/2" mobile attack line made of synthetic hose melted and failed, leaving the holding crews with a large flame front and no water.  They escaped with minor injuries by shielding behind engines which sustained paint and plastic damage only, and the fire went over the road obviously.  I've been on hoselays where synthetic hose failed after contact with hot embers, etc, but I never heard of it failing so quickly after brief direct flame contact! This does not bode well for the way we fight fire in Southern Cal.  Fireball XL5 Synthetic hose has the attractive values of being lightweight and easily deployed.  It also has the characteristics of being easily kinked and as you mentioned, easily burned.  Let me see now. . . when did that type hose begin showing up where I was fighting fire?  Oh, I recall. . . it was during the "consent decree" era in Region 5.   I remember the excitement of the synthetic hose and how it was viewed as having the potential to overcome a perceived "barrier" to the recruitment and employment of those unable to perform with the existing equipment.  If your engine is using synthetic hose on initial attack as the trunk line, I'd look for a job elsewhere.  By the way, where was the engine protection line?  Ab.
01/14	More new Photos: Grand Junction A/T liftoff Stockwell Fire Pike Hotshot Logo Very nice flamage on the Stockwell photo, thanks Tim!  All photos added to Guest3 page.  Ab.
01/14	New Photo:  NJ Crew  New Jersey Crew 1 firefighters on the Boone Hut Fire Danial Boone Nat  Forest Stanton Kentucky. Approx 2 min after photo was taken a major blow up  caused the firefighters to evacuate this position. Minutes later the fire  blew over this burn out operation as firefighters evacuated. Everyone made it  out 2 crew members got cut off for approx 30 minutes but made it out safely. Photo added to Guest3 page, thanks, Ab.
01/14	Old Fire Guy et al.,  Guess it was a poor choice of words on my part.  Instead of hoping against  hope, let's learn from our mistakes like you said.  I've learned a lot from a  lot of mistakes, some of them my own.  Every fire, I learn something new, or re-affirm something old.  Hopefully everyone does.  When we become stagnant  then safety will suffer.  Yes, I'm committed to safety and if we all are,  then tragedies and near misses will not occur.  Teach Away!  We can learn  lessons from a poor report as well as a good one, although I'd take the good  one any day.   Sorry that my word is not good enough for you.  I'd be more  than happy to sign a statement that corrects some of the inaccuracies of the  Sadler report, at least the ones I'm aware of anyway.  I think I will, but would that make my statements any more believable?  You wrote a very good note, by the way.  I know my response won't satisfy you  but it is all I can do at the moment.   Gotta run. Spencer
01/13	Hi all, Your fire pup is back with a new and improved Acronym vocabulary! You all  might have thought my helping Mellie out with Acronyms woulda shut me up fer  a while... NOT! Okay so I, like Mellie had made a small promise not to post  for a while, guess that didn't work! To Noname who responded on 1/11, thanks for the vote of confidence, and for  clearing that up some. I do however humbly remind all I only have very  limited fire expierience, only remotley comprable with what you Old Dogs do. Want to thank Doc Moleskin and AZ Trailblazer for responding so quickly on  the Acronyms, a few less holes for me to fill on the sheet, for the rest of  you I'll have the page, holes or not, done in the next two days, and, Ab  willing, hope to keep it updated as long as I can. Thanks Mellie for letting me help out, and don't knock all us youngsters  yet... there is an aphorism 'Youth and Wisdom are rarely combined'. In a few month's you'll get used to us guys... Tiny, the someday R6 Fire pup
01/12	Check the FWFSA web site and click on "Notices".  New info is posted there on recent developments.  We are always looking for help to get the word out!  Instead of complaining, jump in with both feet and help!!!!!!!  We welcome you!!!!!!  Don't wait to be told, ask what you can do!!!!!  Groundpig OK, here I go with two feet.  Here is a link to the latest posting under "Notices" on the FWFSA web site: http://www.airtanker.com/fwfsa/r-3_letter.htm Here's a link to join up with the FWFSA: http://www.airtanker.com/fwfsa/apply.html Here is good information from the archives: http://www.wildlandfire.com/sep-oct99.htm Ab.
01/12	Mellie, Nice to read all your words, don't edit yourself (that's what Ab's for!)  Hehehehe ALS is Advanced Life Support There are basically three levels of Emergency Medical Technicians (E.M.T.) in  the country.  There is the EMT-B(basic), EMT-I (intermediate), and the EMT-P  (paramedic).  There may be regional differences in the terminology, and scope  of practice, but those are the basic levels of certification. EMT-B's, basically do your basic first aid:  Splinting, bandaging, Oxygen  therapy, assisting a patient in taking medications prescribed for them by a  doc, spinal stablization, etc.... when you say EMT, usually you are referring  to these folks. EMT-I's are the next step on the certification ladder.  These folks can  initiate regular intra-venous fluids (but not medications).  The clinical signifigance of this is kinda complicated but that is very useful to a  patient who might be in shock... EMT-P's are the highest level of training one can get in the EMS field.  In  some states they are MICP's (Mobile Intensive Care Paramedics), meaning they  can do some pretty specialized things.  Basically, they bring the tools and  medications of the Emergency Room with them.  They have communication with  the ER doc, and can give medications, start IV's, and a whole bunch of highly  skilled tasks.  Their training is a lot more in depth, also.  Usually, on the wildland fire crews you have EMT-B's.  The main reason is the  logistics of the equipment that an "I" or a "P" would need to be effective in the field.  I mean, who's gonna carry all that junk?  Of course, there is a  trend in certain agencies for a paramedic, who can carry some of the meds etc, but that won't catch on for a couple of reasons I.M.O (in my opinion),  chief among them the cost, secondly the logistics of providing medications...   I sense that I may be starting a debate here, but I just don't see it  catching on for the crew based EMT to be an EMT P.  Perhaps in the base camp,  but who want's to sit in camp???  <grin> Dr. Moleskin P.S.  I'm a Registered Nurse/EMT-B, but I chose not to take the route of the  Medical Unit Leader, because I don't want to get stuck in camp staring at  blisters on feet.... Not that as a crew based EMT, I don't see feet problems  (hence the nickname), but at least they are the feet of my friends and  crewmates.  ;)  Operations is much more fun than logistics.
01/12	Mellie, My goodness, my deepest apologies to you and everyone else who has troubles  with aconyms. I suppose that since I've been in the fire service for 13  years, carded as a strike team leader, a fire captain/ paramedic for Mayer  Fire District (county funded) and hold a BS in fire safety management and a  MS in Public Administration, I assumed that those of us who venture into  this site for info, to tell stories, or just to "vent" know what some of  those acronyms would be understood. Silly me, just what in the heck was I  thinking. So Millie, to answere your question regarding ALS gear, ALS is a commonly  known Acronym meaning Advanced Life Support, which is a level of care  provided by IEMT's (ooops! sorry, Intermediate Emergency Medical  Technicians) and Paramedics (self explained). Now, there is something out  there called BLS, you guessed it, Basic Life Support, which inturn refers to  Basic EMT's (see above). In reference to the gear that we "ALS" providers  would and do sometimes carry on our apparatus, this would include advanced  airway adjuncts, life saving medications (drug box) cardiac monitoring and  defibulator (that cool toy that makes the unconcious body do the funkie  chicken on "ER"...NOT!)and so on. Here in Arizona, the cap