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02/29	>Howdy Lurker FMO, figured my post would bring out some responses.  I certainly hope you did not take my message to mean I was advocating air tankers and helicopters at night.  The point I wanted to make is they do not operate at night so they can't crash and therefore their crews are not killed.  It was not my intent to display a gungho attitude.  Rather to provoke some thought about what we are really doing out there in pursuit of the wiley uncontrolled wildland fire.  I think the job can be done safely at night - I did not say it was without risks.  Everything we do has a level of risk attached to it.  I personally think the virtually whole sale abandonment of night operations is questionable at best. >And you do raise a very valid point and I should have been a little more specific about the use of mud and buckets early and late.  And... before anyone gets after me they do have their place during the heat of the day. But that place is not dropping load after load and bucket after bucket on the head of the raging inferno in the middle of no where. >I think we are pretty close to being on the same page, but typing stuff into the computer things can get lost in the translation.  If night ops are literally too dangerous then I have no problem.  But what I see more and more of  is its night - therefore we don't fight. >7 body bags on the road on the Canyon fire in 1968.  I forgot the added treat of also seeing the burned out hulk of a Bell 47 that wrapped the bucket around a powerline in a portable dip site set up in a parking lot surrounded by powerlines.  Found out later the pilot  was killed.  That dipsite looked pretty suspect even to a second year firefighter.  Be safe! >DEEFAMO
02/29	For those contractors offering fire employment:  I am more than willing to post your logo and link on the Links Page under Jobs.  I won't go looking for them, but will post them.  BTW, Eric, added yours (Pacific Wildfire) tonight.  Ab.
02/29	can anyone tell me where to get some info. on terra torches?
02/29	WP seems overly concerned about the future of the county. The county commissioners will come through once again, just have a little faith. Fred Fireswatter
02/29	hey   L if you are looking for work  get a hold of me ..slookout51@aol.com  looking for eng crews and bosses
02/29	WP  The Honor Guard presentation I witnessed was NOT a funeral. It was a demonstration memorial service to gain agency support for the honor guard concept. I agree that a Christian version would be appropriate at a Christian firefighter’s funeral. But, are you suggesting that this group would be capable of presenting a  Jewish, Buddhist or Muslim memorial ceremony for a Jewish, Buddhist or Muslim firefighter? I doubt they are. Regardless, there ability to appropriately tailor the ceremony to the denomination was not explained as part of the demonstration or in the provided honor guard brochure.      In answer to your comments on business cards, I can find nothing in the way of specific direction on Gov’t business card criteria. Instead I will suggest that it is an ethics issue. I see little difference between hands clasped in prayer and a political or other ideologic logo. 5 USC 7324-7327 covers political activity. Who can deny that the lines between politics and religion isn’t just a little muddy? 5 CFR 2635 subpart H, discusses  expression of yourself as a private citizen, not as a representative of the government. Executive order 12674 - Employees shall endeavor to avoid any actions creating the appearance that they are violating the law or the ethical standards promulgated pursuant to this order.      Do any of these references say you can’t have clasped praying hands on your business card? No. Do they suggest that federal employees are obligated to represent the government in a professional and non-provocative manner? Yes.      Gov’t employees who are asked to print their own business cards, should print business cards that represent there agency in the best light. Anything else is unprofessional and inappropriate. HELLitorch
02/29	L.  you can contact Rock at Wood's Fire and Emergency Services @ 1-888-309-3473.  We are always looking for new folks.  And we are currently putting together a data base of all former fire folks, that would be interested in working  as an AD OH position. Or in suppression.  Or you may email me at rmmcgee@jps.net.  I am the training and safety mgr for the company. mike:)
02/28	One new flame pic on Fire2 (Spanish) and one new pic on Airtanker2 (Wolfskill).  Both good shots!  Ab.
02/28	HELL-itorch, The reason for the honor guard is to assist in honoring a  fallen firefighter and help the family with the grieving process?  The  chaplain (of what ever religion) is there for the living, to give comfort to  the family.  Please do not forget about them and place concerns about what  may be offense to some secondary to the aid and comfort of the family.  At a  memorial service our job is to show support to the family, not to object on  how they choose to honor their lost love one. I do agree that religion has no place at work, but at a memorial service yes,  it is appropriate.  If a persons personal belief can't be expressed at a funeral/memoral service  because it might "offend" a small minority, what is this county coming to?  And by the way, if that offends you how do you feel about the Pledge of  Allegiance, or what is written on all US currency? One last comment, you mentioned that one member of the honor guard had  "praying hands" on his business card, it is my understanding that the "Gov'ment" does not provide business cards and the employees have to buy  their own.  If that is true, then a person is free to express his or her  personal beliefs on their cards.  Just like anything else that you may find  offensive, don't take one, disregard it, take another path.  In the words of  Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along." WP
02/28	6, This may be a little late, but I've been in Myrtle Beach golfing.  The  memorial in Colorado Springs is for the International Association of  FireFighters. (IAFF) There are several professional wildland firefighters  jurisdictions that are a part of this union. CDF is one of them.  The  memorial in Emmitsburg is in Maryland.  Since it is only 10 min. from my  house, if you ever want to visit the memorial or Washington DC. post a  listing here and I'll set you up with places to stay and visit.  Gettysburg  is real close also. Doorsmaurer
02/28	Tell me noname/BigBar would you have jumped in that "hole" gung ho not knowing the fire perimeter, and if you had any safety zones?  How many of the 18 and 10 would you have broken?  I hope you are not an I.C. on any fire I ever arrive to.  Sure the fire was poorly managed, but my ass was not going down their in that "hole" to risk my life for what reason again? Risk benefit my man. S.C.
02/28	Howdy to all you "regulars" that contribute to this site...my first time after looking at the archives. I am the vice chair of the Minnesota Wildfire Fighters Association...a group that was formed several years ago to give some representation to the temps. that work with the Minnesota DNR and USFS in MN. We have had some success at getting pro wildfire fighter legislation passed in MN and substantial pay increases for temporary wildfire fighters in MN. Last summer we discovered that some DNR area offices were failing to pass on the names of "ADs" who were submitting their names for the national availability list...in effect keeping "their" temps on a kind of unpaid standby...Of course they were not telling anyone about it as it was a very dishonest practice. Since MN has a huge blowdown/fire potential in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area (on our border with Canada) we expect the the practice to continue through the upcoming season. When our membership found out about the lost employment opportunities they directed us to try to find some other means of getting out of state work. So we are currently preparing a list of our members that are carded and ready to go to incidents that will be emailed to interested parties . This includes several of the western states who were screaming for ADs while our members were ready and willing and under the impression that they were included on the NIFC list. We have a lot of folks with lots of different types of experience...rotorheads, engine crews, and groundpounders. If any of you know of any agencies or private contractors that are interested in receiving this list of resources please let me know via email at  linscott@rea-alp.comm and I will include them in the emailing which I hope to keep updated weekly during the upcomming season. Also if anyone is interested in starting a similar organization in other states, feel free to contact me.  Dana Linscott
02/28	L, take a look at the "job related links" at this site.  Stu
02/28	L-- I don't know the hiring situation with Fire Stop, but they're good. To find out, try Ron at dougherty@directcom.net . Their website is www.fire-stop.com. Good luck. Mellie
02/27	hello my name is mark dudnick and i want to become a real wild land fire  fighter i allready have my red card but the fire crew here in utah is only a  tem. service that is not worth the effort.  i have allways wanted to be a  wild land fire fighter so if you could email me with the info on a fire crew  in my area or in the georgia area   or please call me at 801-774-0719 thanx for youre time www.dragonfire1978@aol.com
02/27	I am a USFWS employee on a national wildlife refuge in TX that actively participates in as many prescribed burns and wildfires that time allows (I am a wildlife biologist).  As I was surfing the web this weekend I came across your "logo" page and was over-joyed to find a Texas wildland firefighter logo.  The description states that it was submitted by:  Keith.  I was wondering if there is any contact information for Keith in hopes that I can obtain information regarding this logo, patches, stickers, etc.  Please feel free to reply to this e-mail address (my home account) or to my work e-mail:  tate_fischer@fws.gov.  I appreciate your time and consideration in this regard.  Thank you! Sincerely, Tate
02/27	AB : I just got done with my pack test, and you know that during that time you get a chance to do some good thinking and you know after three years of doing this it has to be the stupidist thing ever, big deal I can pack 45lb for 3 mile under 45 min and I am 5' 7'' 150lb and 40+, you have to stay in good shape or you will not be in this line of work.; for people such as myself who start early and work until november should be tested more than once, and why not test upper body strength, lotta of hose lays, gas cans to carry, water cubics people always run out of water. Running saws most of the day and then have to carry it out, your arms are spent, no test there(push ups), I know the shots have their own test that cover these areas, but as far as my crew goes we are all type 1's as well so? I don't know food for thought.                         popp
02/26	to mellie- about the other chicas, we're out here.  To pappy- about the 24's  you hit the nail right on the head.  Im wondering what people know about  working for the contract crews.  If anyone has useful info Id be interested  as I wont be going back to the  fs this year but cant seem to get fire off my  mind.  Are there any companies that work on a as needed basis so I can still  attend school?  And what do they pay?  Thanks to anyone who can enlighten  me. -L
02/26	Here in Michigan (Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources Bellaire field office) I have worked with a local internet service to come up with a low cost Fire prevention idea. The local internet service and I made a chat page for Smokey Bear. Here I sit at a computer as Smokey Bear chating with kids at school at a pre-arranged time. Kids ask Smokey questions on line about wildland fires. Teachers are embracing it cause it gives kids time on line and it give a good message. To take a look go to www.torchlake.com/firesafety/   Thanks (Don)
02/26	I have to reply to (no name ) , I think you forgot why you do what you do... As a volunteer F/F I do respond to OES calls for assistance. As MOC4546 stated, many small rural fire dist. do not get enough funding to pay for proper eqiup. and training. If you feel you were under cut buy the local gov. equip. in Cal. remember that we operate under the 5 party agreement and are paid per that agreement. Who represents us during that negotiation has been the main topic of many late night discussions, ( I still don't know who but I guess it doesn't matter ) but anyway, we don't make the rules, we just play by them... Many depts in my small rural county depend on that money to repair and or replace through the CDF auction the equip. that helps protect their families the year round. So again I say  " don't forget why you became a F/F."  If it was for the $$$ you don't get it do ya !!! Not afraid to print my name, Dan
02/26	All this whining about the big bar.  The fire should have been put out in the first couple of weeks.  How many days did we sit around on some piece of indirect line while the fire dicked around in the hole.  What are type one helicopters and type one crews for?  Direct attack maybe?  All of these suppression resources sitting around brushing roads.  Following dozers around all day.  The marine layer sat in that canyon for at least two weeks straight and no action was taken on the fire.  What a joke.  Indirect line is not the savior.  I guess some people figured that out about two months later when it dried out again and none of those lines held.  Direct line construction, if possible and when done correctly, is the best form of wildland fire suppression.  It puts fire out.  No questions asked.  As for the Onion fire what were those guys thinking?  Miles of indirect handline with no safety zones.  Shockingly that fire jumped also.  Go direct.  I know it is hard to do when you are the ops chief and you are on your last assignment before a promotion.  It looks so good on your resume to have engineered a multi-million dollar "complex".  The Big Bar should have been suppressed in the first week.  When you tie peoples hands the taxpayers end up paying in the end.  Nevrmind all the health risks of sitting in that smoke for weeks on end. (Noname/BigBar)
02/26	ab and all.  what do you folks think of using private contractors in overhead positions  I know of  one time for sure this year that i saw that and i've been questioned by some overhead as to how did he get trained for that.  Ive noticed that some of the fs folks I used to work with seem to think that I foregot how to fight fire or fill some OH positions because I'm in the private sector.  whats your viewpoints. mike
02/26	R5 North Ops just re-released the announcement for type II teams.  The initial hope was to create 4 teams in N Cal, but they did not get enough replies to create one team.  I bet management is scratching its head trying to figger out why. I know why I am not applying. Several years ago,after 20 years in Fire, I transferred to a timber job for health and personal reasons.  I maintained my red card quals and dutifully answered the fire call when needed.   Not any more I am hanging up my nomex and red card this year. Because of downsizing I am doing the work of two+ people, and the workload is increasing.  I am working 10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week this winter.  I do not want to even think about this summer when the work really kicks in.  If I took a fire assignment, I would face a mountainous work backlog on looming deadlines upon my return.  Now,with the new FFIS system, there is no fiscal incentives for managers to send the militia to fires. Then throw in the mandatory 3+ weeks fire refresher and currency training (taking me away from my job some more). And to top it all off, the bean counters start cutting off your hazard pay, stop paying you after 16 hours even if you worked, won't compensate you for out of pocket expenses incurred on the fire, treat you like dirt in fire camp, etc.  Most of my coworkers are of the same mind.  'Not Passing' the pack test is seen as a way to stop going to fires without any repercussion. The Washington Office has succeeded in creating a system filled with disincentives to fight fire.  I want  to take fire assignments, but the price is just too high. I am interested in hearing from any FS line officers or  Regional or Washington staff on their take on the situation. Acorn I'd love to argue and tell you you're wrong, but . . .Ab.
02/26	hey eric: I have to respond about the rec trailer idea.  the closest I've seen to that was back in 86/87 was in one camps stagging area and we had 2 movie theaters set up.  Volley ball courts horseshoes, etc.  I want to say that was back at Big Bar complex.  It was definite Deja-vu for me last year getting travel orders to go to the Big Bar Complex. mik
02/26	For everyone's information, The Honor Guard performs the Honor Guard function, the person doing the prayer performs the chaplain's function. As Firehorse mentioned, any denomination may be requested, Christian was what happened this time. Seems like this kink can be worked out with the chaplain side of the equation. I'm not ready to get my torch in a swivel over it. Honor Guard, when you have the video digitized, contact Ab to see if we can link to it. Then everyone could see what it's like... Mellie from Five Waters (PS someone gave me a torch for practicing burnouts! I think I'm in HEAVEN but I'm not so sure any more with all these mixed metaphors. I know I'm not exactly in the equation I used to be in when I was a statistician!)
02/25	Two new engine photos on the Engine2 page and one new logo to the Logo page were added this morning.  Ab.
02/25	I saw the FS Honor Guard in Reno last week. I believe that there is a place for this type of production. I whole-heartedly agree that we need to honor and remember our fallen firefighters. But, the honor guard concept needs to move in a non-denominational direction. The message I got out of the ceremony was - If you ain't a christian, you're in the wrong business. I've known and worked with christian, jewish, Buddhist and atheist firefighters. (Including at least one member of the "church of obsolete appliances." Without exception, their beliefs had nothing to do with the quality of their work. No firefighter should be made to feel less of a professional because of  his or her color, race, or religious beliefs. This isn't just a good idea - it's the law.  I approached members of the honor guard following their presentation and asked if they had considered that their strong christian message may be offensive to non-christians. The response was, "that's okay - we have a answer to that - and our management has agreed to back us." At least one member of the honor guard gave me his FS business card with a logo of hands grasped in prayer in the upper corner.  If anyone believes this is acceptable behavior within the federal government, I guess the question that comes to mind is: At what point is it not okay for preaching on government time? How about ending safety meetings with a little prayer. How about morning tactical meetings with communion offered on the way to the coffee and donut table. Oh, and if you're not a member of this exclusive christian club, start throwing down 171's for jobs somewhere other than fire. (Especially in R-5.)  BLM is also moving in the honor guard direction. Like the Forest Service I believe this is inherently a good idea. But if the honor guard does not take a non-denominational approach -  it is going to need an honor guard before the idea gets off the ground.  HELL-itorch
02/24	New logo from Oklahoma Forestry Services on the Logo Page.  Ab.
02/24	Just got an little update on the 'click the banner ' stuff. From the Congressional Fire Services Institute newsletter, (see earlier post from Dave, todays date, Ab.)   "Senators Mike DeWine (OH) and Chris Dodd(CT) coalesced in sponsoring the Firefighter Investment and Response Enhancemenmt Act, a measure mirroring legislation introduced earlier in the session by Congressman Bill Pascrell (NJ).  S. 1941 would establish a $5 billion grant program for fire departments to increase their level of readiness.  With the funds , fire departments could purchase new equipment and protective gear, hire staff, conduct inspections and investigations, enhance safety education programs --- and address other needs, as well." By sending the White House the e-mail letter referenced yesterday you can help the legislature make up its mind, or the executive branch anyway. Now if they could only do something for the poor ol" FS. Later, Dave
02/24	If prayer by the Honor Guard seems to be a sticking point with the FS or some individuals out there it is a simple fix.  If the family of the fallen firefighter is contacted and requests prayer, bring in an outside pastor, priest, whatever the family requests.  Don't leave it up to the honor guard to supply the prayer.  If I remember right, Kathy Holtby (South Canyon) had a Native American background and had a Native American representative rather than a traditional Christian representative.  While this is not the forum to discuss prayer and the US Government I am going to mention this anyway since I dealt with it thru the FS for 30 years.  Contrary to popular belief, the Constitution itself does not prohibit a coexistence of the Government and religion, nor does it mention religion.  The only reference is found in   "The Bill of Rights, Article [I.] Amendments to the Constitution:  Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......"  This basically says it prohibits a State sponsored church such as the one the pilgrims came to this country to escape.  Prayer and the recognition of God, or some other higher being (To each his own beliefs) was very much evident at the dedication of the Wildland Firefighters Memorial in Prineville, Oregon a few years ago. There were many FS employees wearing the uniform and I don't remember anyone having a problem with the fact that FS personnel were obviously there and the event was backed by the FS, BLM and several other Government agencies.  I believe I heard somewhere that the Govt was instrumental in helping place crosses at Mann Gulch and South Canyon.  The Govt/Religion/Prayer argument is run into the ground and weak at best when you consider 90% of the original signatories of the Declaration of Independence were Christians,  Congress opens each session with prayer and the president holds a prayer breakfast each year.  Prayer at an event honoring dead firefighters is a comfort and part of the "Closure" to many of the relatives of the fallen firefighters.  If it is presented by an FS honor guard and the ACLU, Liberals or FS management has a problem, the honor guard should take it to the media and see what the general public has to say about it. Firehorse
02/24	Guys and Gal(s)-- Say, where are the gals out there, hiding behind male aliases? Are there any reading or writing besides the web goddess? I would like to read the Jacobs and Laverty reports. I have the Rains Report--interesting. Also am checking around among my friends to see which one has the Agency Strategy for Fire Management. I know this idea was in full bloom in late October/ early November. It's a logical thing to consider, but all the remifications need to be thought through. (It may also be logical to consider letting big fires like the BBComplex burn until the rains come... and protecting only structures/ human life in the interim-- just like a huge prescribed burn, maybe? Better yet would be planning and executing prescribed burns and shadow breaks and fuel reductions of other sorts... Hmmmm, I have a way of wanting to consider even things that seem like the most extreme alternatives as long as we don't get railroaded into a less than optimal solution by one (political) group or another!) With regard to the Honor Guard, it was clear from the meeting that we need ritual. I have found that words often are not necessary for Essential Spirit to show up on a grand scale. Often all it takes is an intention to invite that PRESENCE in the participants and the space for it to happen. Thanks Honor Guard Guys and Gals for providing that PRESENCE.  Kelly, thanks for the maps. It's fun to see my home plot on the internet! Hey, Firehorse, it's good you're safely married. I often go for older men! Strictly platonic relationships, of course!! As one young firepup friend of mine says, "Ain't the internet GRAND!" Mellie PS:   I have an extra Division Chief's Workshop 2000 button if someone who went didn't get one and wants it. Give me an e-mail at five_waters@hotmail.com. I'd like to give it to someone who was there or was invited but didn't get one. I know they ran out... Mellie There are actually quite a few females posting here, ya just can't tell from their aliases. . . and I ain't tell'in :-)  Ab.
02/24	To DEEFAMO,  Your gung-ho attitide is admirable, but you missed the boat on a few  of your points.  The reason no airtankers crash at night is that they  don't fly at night - and I don't believe they ever will.  The risk far  outweighs any tactical advantage.  Speaking as a former long time air  attack boss, I believe it would be impossible to safely use airtankers  after dark.  But I belong to the school of thought that holds that, on  large fires, they should mostly be used early in the day when they are  effective.  Way too much expensive mud is pissed away throwing it at  raging fires at the height of the afternoon burning conditions when  it's completely ineffective (except maybe for structure protection).  Huge amounts of money are wasted running airtankers on large fires in  the heat of the day.  And here's a little history - in 1977 on the Angeles NF, two  helicopters crashed while flying at night when they collided (two  deaths, I believe).  At that time, the USFS in R5 had two night-flying  helicopters and LA County had at least one.  The ships that collided  were an LA County 205 and a Los Padres NF 212 using night flying  goggles.  That was the end of the night-flying wildifre program for  the feds - too dangerous.  I'm not sure if LA County or any other  agencies still have night-flying helicopter bucket ops on wildfires.  It's hardly a cop-out to shut down air ops at night, and I believe  that the safety problems for ground troops at night can be pretty  signifigant.  Ever had a close call with falling rocks or trees at  night, or nearly walk off a cliff?  My hotshot years provided me with  too many of those moments - they're terrifying.  It can be impossible  to provide effective lookouts at night.  And for what it's worth,  people have been burned over at night - I've seen it on the Angeles  and Los Padres during Santa Anas and Sundowner winds.  I'm just saying  you have to carefully weigh the benefits against the hazards - night  shift isn't all tall cotton and cold beer.  By the way, I'm curious about when and where you saw seven body bags  lying by the side of the road during the day in California.  That  seems like a pretty notable event.  the lurker FMO
02/24	In response to the comment about how "R5 seems mostly willing to support and promote the Honor Guard," that's not the case. The R5 front office was adamantly opposed. Maybe the changing of the guard there will change that. RE: prayers, though, if the honor guard functions just as an honor guard and deletes any praying, that would be A Good Thing. Any praying going on is going to kill the idea; read any news or court cases lately on prayer in the schools???? The political climate and church/government situation in this country won't stand for it. There are many flavors of honor guard out there, and some of them who don't touch the religion subject function quite nicely. (Noname) Thanks for the clarification.  Ab.
02/24	I know you don't like banners and pop up commercials but this one is a little different. Check it out at www.nfrmag.com/pascrell.htm , and then click on the banner above. It is sort of  geared to structure fire but it does make a point.  (nfrmag stands for National Fire and Rescue Magazine)  I got this note from Dean Dysart who is a Capt. with Ventura County and a DIVS on CIIMT #2. A good man and a heck of a firefighter.   Later, Dave
02/24	I'm looking for any information, investigation report or personel experience  on the Railroad fire shelter deployment that occured in Utah around July 4TH  1999, for my S-230 crew boss class that i am teaching.                      I can be contacted by E-Mail E3133@aol.com, or fax me at (760) 378-3422
02/23	Mellie mentioned a report yesterday entitled An Agency Strategy for Fire Management in her post yesterday.  In addition to that report, there are two others I highly recommend reading for clues to the FS future.   Here's an excerpt from the USFS F&AM News Page regarding the reports and their subjects.             An Agency Strategy for Fire Management: The National Management Review Team’s strategic examination of persistent issues of the last decade, with recommendations and potential solutions. (Robert  Jacobs, Team Leader)             Policy Implications of Large Fire Management: A Strategic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs: A comprehensive overview of two large, costly fires in California to determine if there are underlying, unaddressed causes for such high suppression costs. (Michael Rains, Team Leader)             Protecting People and Sustaining Resources in Fire-Adapted Ecosystems: A Cohesive Strategy: This strategy addresses and provides guidance for hazardous fuels reduction on National Forest Service lands over the next 10-20 years. (Lyle Laverty, Team Leader)      The same news brief indicates the reports will be available on the NIFC F&AM web site "soon".  If anyone has digital access to these reports, let me know how to get 'em, please don't email them without asking, I don't need a hundred of them in my mail box.  I would especially like the Jacobs Report (seems the reports are more commonly known by last name of the team leaders than their titles).  Ab.
02/23	Ab; I attended Jerry Levitovs (wrong spelling) Memorial in Westwood a while ago  and the Forest Service Honor Guard was great, fabulous !! They were proud,  professional, and a great tribute to Jerry and his family.   CDF has an  Honor Guard that goes around the state with Bag Pipes and Drums, the  traditional salute to a fallen Firefighter (make that Warrior). We must honor our own and some traditions take time to spread.   I think  its great that there's an organized effort to bring an official tribute to  our brothers and sisters who've passed on. Michael
02/23	To Mellie re. the report "Agency Strategy........".  It was presented at the Florida meeting at the beginning of FEB.  Anyone who attended should be able to let you read it. oldboy.
02/23	To those who have responded on the 24 hour shhift, thanks! ALL California Incident Management Teams (National Type I, CDF, &  many Local Type II's) will be meeeting in Mid March in Sacto to discuss many issues. I'll continute to watch for your thoughts on the issue. Thanks TO those who have already responded. On the Honor Guard, I Believe; THE TIME HAS COME TO SHOW RESPECT TO OUR OWN! Hopefully the type of prayer would become specific to the beliefs of thje fallen firefighter.  OPSC (yea, I know the acronym is really OSC1, an old habit)
02/23	Hi Ab and All-- Still playing ketchup, juggling my tomatoes of responsibilities and duties and heading to AZ next week to present, but wanted to chime in on some recent posts.   Thanks, Ab, for providing the link (2/9) to "A fire catastrophe that was preventable" about the blowdown that contributed to the growth of the Megram fire toward the west. We need to find a new term that connotes "reducing fuel loading" that does not have as charged a meaning as "salvage logging". Any ideas, readers?  Also, why is fire considered a "ground disturbing activity" necessitating Survey and Manage study prior to prescribed burns. All species on the planet evolved in the presence of fire! We need to keep questioning the arbitrary premise that we're destroying something with fire! (Never thought this environmentalist would be doing "confrontation" (their term) with preservationists. They can't believe I'm not on their "side". I keep telling them that, for me, it's not a matter of sides... but of arriving at optimal solutions.) I also immediately snarfed up Eric's image for my wallpaper. AWESOME! Your wallpaper instruction helps, too, Ab. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of An Agency Strategy for Fire Management (1/12/00) that was presented at a national FMO meeting last month. Was that the FL meeting at the beginning of Feb?  Oldboy, any more info since your post of 2/16? MOC4546, great info on small rural fire districts! I was getting ready to send in a piece I wrote following the Big Bar Complex (and Karen Savage's death) that covered some of the funding points you mentioned. You did a much more complete post than I could have. I've saved it to my files as a valuable resource! Noname -- my very own first Lovely Lucifer Lurker (LLL) -- thanks for decloaking to respond to my "issues report". I also agree with most of what you said, especially about knowledge of the complexity of the system as one climbs the organizational ladder. In a discussion with Joe Stuttler last fall, I expressed your perspective that complex systems are hard to understand and change. This was after he gave me and I read the Federal Wildland Fire Management Policy and Program Review (1995). He said something to the effect that all that was required was the will to really begin the dialog within the Fire Service and with the public and then to persist in the process. We're engaged in that here. I'm engaged with the public in other arenas. Ab, in your editorial response, you made some points I have made in several presentations on the subject. -- Thanks, I won't reiterate them.  I'd like to know from you, dear LLL, what YOU think are the critical issues for FIRE at your level of complexity and involvement. Please, let's get the issues out here and address them. (It's easy to imply, albeit indirectly, that some of us here on They Said or those at the Division Chief's meeting who have not climbed the ladder and affected change are just "bitchers and whiners" when we offer opinions. Name calling, however indirectly, doesn't illuminate our current state of affairs or facilitate communication between organizational levels… We're all in this together. Multiple perspectives "from the engine window, end of the hose, end of a pulaski, or jump plane door" can add up to a more complete logistical BODY of knowledge used as input by the HEAD in making some fire plans and policy. Similarly, input from all trained-up Shots may provide more complete safety info in sizing up fire behavior. I've found that collaboration among and within levels of organization can reduce "group think" or "tunnel vision". We who post here on TheySaid are professionals. We are pursuing safety and safe assignments. Unless we ask questions and offer comments, however roughly put, we don't know what the lessons are that affect safety. Let's get on with the process of illuminating the Lessons Learned together in all aspects and at all levels of the FIRE organization… In one sense, nothing is broken, change is upon us AND things could be better.  Mellie (FYI, in my lexicon, Lucifer means "light bringer" and I always strive to be one.)
02/23	Well I will be honest and admit that I normally do not look foreward to a fire assignment in R-5.  Maybe it is because on my first assignment down there I drove by 7 body bags laying on the edge of the road, and they were not empty.  During the day!  But, I cannot resist responding to "6" in referring to night shifts in R-5.  I believe that is one thing they have got right.  When do we have the advantage?  It is certainly not in the mid afternoon when it is the hottest and driest and the wind is howling.  How many folks have jumped into a fire shelter on the night shift.  How many folks have been burned over at night?  How many airtankers have augered in at night?  How many helicopters have crashed at night?  I think anymore we will do anything to hide behind Safety to avoid any risk at all.  Of course folks can get hurt or worse at night, but I think we need to rethink the go home at dark way of fighting fire.  Any more it is a joke that we fight fire agressively and provide for safety first.  You can do both, they are not mutually exclusive terms.  Yes there is risk in night operations and folks need to be heads up and performing the job they were hired to do which includes doing it safely.  Just because the sun went down does not mean it cannot be done safely.  Instead we cop out and end up fighting fire on the fires terms.  We throw mud all day and drop buckets until pilots are fried - and for what?  So we can do it again the next day?  Maybe we should watch where they go during the day and give them hell at night?  DEEFAMO
02/23	Does anyone know how to get the text or information on the Fire Line Assessment Model? DR
02/23	A small collection of 1999 California fire maps is now linked up from the USFS REGION 5 FIRE website at http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire If you have others to contribute, I'd like to add to the collection. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  Kelly.Andersson/r5@fs.fed.us   USFS R5 Fire & Aviation    http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
02/23	Thanks for all the compliments on the Rat Creek Photo. My wife isnt into this business, and doesnt get it.  she just sees "a fire in the trees,  whats the big deal"   Go figure. As for standing around in the photo.  If this were video, it would have taken 30 more seconds to see an empty field!!.   I had at least 12 people on top of my type 4x engine.   We went about another 1/2 mile into the black, to get away from the radiant heat & smoke.      As for patch requests.  I have had all of my logos embroidered directly onto the shirts.  ( less burn through risk w/ nomex thread)  Since so many people wanted em,  I had a hundred made.  E-mail an address and ill snail mail one to you.  Or stop one of my engines on a fire.  Theyll have them in the glove box. As for the 24 shifts.  I like the idea.   I went through last years shift tickets, and found were averaging 17.25 hours a shift anyways.  They then have 2 hours of rehabing engine, clean up, eating, showering, etc.  That means your up for at least 20 hours.  leaving 4 for sleep if your lucky.  As for pay.  it should work out to be pretty close to the same.    you know what I would like to see at a fire.  A recreation trailer!!!!  some couches, big screen tv,  maybe a hot tub or two  (plumb that propane hot water heater into a portatank!), massage table!!.  Just kidding heck of an idea though ;) Never got your Email BC One other comment I had about the "old timers"     Gov is worried about losing all the experience to mandatory retirements from fire.   there is still four-seven years till this "crisis"  why not team up younger inexperienced IC  with the older experienced IC.  Kinda like a Mentor program.    PLenty of time to implement.  Or change the laws.  and allow these folks to work longer.  As long as they are physically safe to do the work,  why would age matter? Just a thought. Heres the Email for the patches. Eric pacificrimwildfire@email.msn.com pacificwildfire.com 253 460 7323 see you on the line.
02/23	What is "Controversial" about the honor guard?  Did I miss something in Mellie's note?  Does anyone out there have additional info on them?  Are they sanctioned by the FS (noticed they had FS shield on their shoulders)?  Seems like a good idea to me considering our structural brothers and sisters go all out in the event of a death of one of their own.  With the exception of the folks that died in South Canyon, a death in the Wildland environment usually will not be covered outside the local news area.  Checked out your picture Mellie.  You look like a real "Hottie" to me; but I am happily married.  Probably too old for you anyway since I have a new Granddaughter that is the apple of my eye. Firehorse
02/23	In case you've been wondering what Mellie looks like, check out the new photo on the Misc Photo Page, while there, check out a photo of the Official/Unofficial, controversial Honor Guard.  Then checkout the Redhawks logo on the Logo Page.  Ab.
02/22	AB, Tried to make the Rat Creek photo my wallpaper and the image comes out in "blocks"  and unable to tell what it is.  I downloaded that program you mentioned on the bottom of your last note and now do't know what the next step is.  I'm PC illiterate.  Can you help.  Don't need to post this to the regular site unless you think it will help someone else. Firehorse No problem Firehorse, here's some instructions for you and all.  There are several ways to create wallpaper, first, the easy ways: Netscape & Internet Explorer: 1.  Go to a photo page, click on the photo, not the name of the photo, you want to view the actual size.  Once the image loads, right click the photo, then click on Set as Wallpaper.  This will make the image your default wallpaper. Netscape Wallpaper, convert the image to .bmp format, and place it in your Windows main directory/folder.  The wallpaper images have to be in .bmp format and in your Windows folder (unless you have "Active Desktop" enabled in Win98). 2.  If the photo isn't big enough to cover your full screen, you can go to the Start Button, Settings, Control Panel, Display, and click the Background Tab, Choose an option from the Display drop down menu in the bottom right corner.  Win98 has Stretch, Tile, or Center, Win95 I believe may not have the Stretch option.  Pick which one works for you.  If the image doesn't look good "stretched", no problem, you can change your background color to enhance the photo. 3.  While still in the Control Panel, Display window, click the Appearance tab, then towards the bottom right, click the Item drop down menu and select Desktop.  Move across to the right in the same row and drop down the Color menu.  If you want to see more options, click on Other, then pick a color and OK your way out of the windows.  Depending on the main color theme of the picture, you can make your desktop look far better than the default windows icky green. For those who decided to try Irfanview, do the following. 1.  Click here to download the program:  http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9227474/iview312.exe .  Save the program where ever you desire, if you are new to downloading programs, I suggest you create a new directory called "downloads" or something similar prior to downloading so you don't loose track of whre they end up. 2.  After the file downloads, use your Start Button, then Run, then browse to the location of Iview312.exe, click the file, then ok your way back out.  I don't recall the exact process of installation, but chosing the default settings should be just fine. 3.  Before proceeding, if you haven't already, download a copy of the photo you want to use.  It can be saved anywhere and can be deleted later if you wish, just remember where you saved it.  When viewing the photo, not the thumbnail, right click the photo and choose "Save Image As", then watch where it goes, or browse and choose a download location. 4.  Crank up the Irfanview program.  From the main menu select File, then Open.  Browse to the location of the saved photo and double-click it.  When the files opens, again select File from the main menu, then Save As..., you can select where to save the image as, and using the browse features, might as well tell it the Windows directory now.  After chosing the save location, go to the bottom of the window and use the Save as Type drop down menu to select *.BMP (Windows Bitmap).  Hint:  I always put a 1 in front of the file name so when I do the next step, the files I've converted are always on the top of the list.  Eg:  If you are using the ratcreek photo, just rename it 1ratcreek. 5.  That's it for the file conversion, although there are many more things you can do with this program.  Another main use might be to resize the photo to fit your desktop.  To do that, just click on Image on the main menu, then select Resize, choose your new size, then don't forget to save the photo prior to exiting the program.  (File, Save, or Save As...)  Hint2:  Until your sure you want to permanently save the settings, use the Save As. .., you can always shrink a pic (to a certain point) and have it look ok, but once you do, if you try to enlarge it, much of the information has been squeezed, so it won't look as good as the original.  Just add a 1, 2, 3, etc. at the end of the file name to tell them apart when you save them.  When you get the size you want, you can delete the others. 6.  If you haven't done so, exit the program, use the Start Button, Settings, Control Panel, Display, Background tab, then select a file to use as wallpaper.  If you followed the hint above, you should easily find your new file at the top of the list.  Select the pic, then select the Tile, Center, or Stretch options as above.  Ok your way out and your new wallpaper should be there. Happy Wallpapering, Ab.
02/22	Dean, thanks for the link.  That is an internet site that all firefighters should check out if they get the chance. Eric, your picture of the Rat Creek fire is GREAT!  I wish I had that type of talent. On the 24 hour shift issue, the only place where I ever ran into that management was in California, and it really sucked.  We were really hammered at the end of the shift, and were lucky to avoid an accident.  This management, IMO, compromises safety big time, and will go away from the Federal sector as soon as there is an accident where fatigue from 24 hour shifts is documented as a contributing factor. The overhead team gave us a song-and-dance about travel times and work/rest ratio, but the real reason was because of the CDF involvement in the incident.  A couple of points: 1.  The travel time, work/rest, etc. issues can be managed by the use of spike camps, coyote tactics, and other management practices.  If an overhead team can't figure those logistical issues out, they should not be allowed off of their districts, much less try to manage an incident. 2.  Most regions have gone away from night shifts except in initial attack and unusual circumstances on project fires.  The reason?  SAFETY!  Very few values we protect are worth having a tired firefighter walk off a cliff in the middle of the night.  Every fire I go to in R-5 have night shifts.  Why?  I don't know, you tell me. "Fire Behavior Analyst (FBAN) and the Long Term Fire Analyst (LTAN) are two separate positions"  That change is long overdue!  Hope that it really happens. Tiny, you hang tough, keep working out, and drop me a line when you turn 18 and want to try fighting fire. Ab, the more I think about the time and effort this site requires, the more I am impressed.  Thanks for the great job and all the effort. 6
02/22	I read with interest Mellies last post in reference to us old salts that are due to bail out of this line of work - some looking foreward to going and others going kicking and screaming.  After watching your site for awhile I fail to see a problem.  Virtually everyone that posts a message has all the answers to all the problems, so in the natural progession of things they can move up in their organization and solve all those problems that are so easily fixed when the only perspective you have is from the engine window, end of the hose, end of a pulaski, or jump plane door. Things will never change, those at the lowest levels of the organization always have the answers.  So what has gone wrong, nobody every moved up in the organization?  Everybody that moved up forgot all the answers they had before moving up??  Or maybe once they moved up they found out what seemed so simple really was not? Bottom line is although there is a fair number  of us old salts  that will be leaving in the next few years, there is a wealth of young talent out there ready to step in and get the job done.  I have worked with them, trained alot of them, and I am fully confident they can and will get the job done.  And they are not the bitchers and whiners!!  (Noname) I'll agree, with a few reservations.  There are some fine firefighters waiting to apply their wisdom to the Battalion and Division positions, there just aren't as many as there used to be.  Also, the current situations of extremely low national unemployment rates, tour limitations, lower pay, and lack of good benefits are contributing yearly to declining retention rates (at least in the USFS).  Hopefully, as in the past, there will remain those who choose a career based on other than monetary benefits.  I observe the same type of recruitment/retention problems now that I saw in the military during the two years after the draft was abolished.  The other half of the looming issue pertains to the non-fire employees who have traditionally provided extended attack and large fire support.  There aren't too many of those left and they are aging also. There was information requested by North Ops last year concerning redcarded personnel available by position, retirement dates, etc., anyone know about the results of that survey?  Ab.
02/22	Eric, just looked at the Rat Creek Photo, what were you guys standing around  for?  I got to Lower Rat Creek the day after you "let" the fire jump 97.  Thanks to your effort I got to spend 7 wonderful days above the King Ranch .   All kidding aside, great picture, I would like to use it in a training  sesson. WP
02/22	well here we go one more time .. to the guy that is a firefighter in north  cal ..not all pvt contracters are useing old logging trucks .. get a grip..as  for not being real firefighters most folks that work for us have worked for  usfs or blm and are sick of the crap that goes on with them..look at the govt  down sizeing the firefighting crews..soon all the firefighting will be left  up to the pvts..and yes i have seen it now that more and more fires are being  takeing care of the pvts..as far as the mutal aid goes it is great to see a fd tender show up when you are on a fire and some of the eqt that has showing  up looks like it came out of a junk yard..there are a lot of hard working pvt  contracters up in r .6 that have set the standerd for wildland firefighting  .. folks like pacificerim wildfireand a-1 fireout.. so let all just get a  long on this thing and do the job and be safe ..some times on this web  folks  just need to get a grip          ff1
02/22	i am looking for anyone interested in trading patches or radio frequencies. i can trade arizona state parks or emt arizona patches. i am a wildland firefighter/emt with superstition wilderness fire rescue team in arizona. any interested party can either send patches to me and i will send somew back or vice versa. surface mail Mike Lanning 325 W. 5th St. #103 Mesa AZ  85201 or e-mail mikercp@hotmail.com gotta go. stay safe and hope to hear from you soon. mike.
02/22	Noname, In reference to your posting regarding if the customers of Mayer appriciate  the fact that their firefighters and equipment are out off district fighting  fire, the answer is an ENTHUSIASTIC YES! First off, my fire district is not out competing for wildland business. This  is our job and our duty to provide fire/EMS services not only to the  customers (taxpayers) of the Mayer Fire District, but also to support firefighting operations throught the State of Arizona. Arizona doesn't have a large complex state fire agency such as CFD, ODF, or  even the likes of Florida. Here in Arizona, we have the Arizona State Land  Department (State Fire Management) that does not have the logistical  resources or legislative support to provide the same lavel of services that  CDF or other "larger" state wildland agencies can provide. What AZ State  does have is interagency cooperative aggreements (IGA's) with ALL types of  fire departments in AZ. That includes city fire departments (like Phoenix,  Tucson, & Flagstaff, who I might mention has a large fire management  division that supports the State Land Department and Coconino NF), fire  districts such as Mayer, Central Yavapai, and even Northwest Fire District,  who has numerous type 3 engines, water tenders, and even a 20 person hand  crew. As a matter of fact, Northwest Fire sent out a strike team of engines  to Texas a couple of years ago. I wonder how their customers felt about  that!?!. AZ State also has a contract with the few privates here in AZ, such  as Rural/Metro, Johnson Fire Services, and Nezbit's Fire Service, though I don't know how they are paid. Due to the fact that AZ is a little different than the rest of the world, WE  AS CITY/COUNTY/DISTRICT fire agencies are not only encouraged but sometimes  EXPECTED to inter IGA's with the state/feds due to the demographics of our  area/locations. Your questions regarding the monies. Yes, we do make money in our endeavors,  but, please understand, this money is acually budgeted into our district  funding. In other words, if we were not able to go out and fight fires for  the state/feds, we would not be able to afford additional equipment,  training, and even personnel for our district. Yes, the old addage is true,  even for tax supported fire districts and city fire departments, "you have  to spend money to make money"! The money we made last year in wildland fires  alone allowed us to send more firefighters to training, bought EMS  equipment, and gave us the opporunity to purchase 10 sets of brand new  structural turnout gear. For us to go out and fight off district fires is  actually saving our customers tax money. As far as stripping our district to run into the hills, one of the neatest  things about our wildland program is that it provides us with ADDITIONAL  personnel for the summer. Our wildland program has become one of the biggest  recruitment and retainers of out reserve (volunteer) firefighters. We also  hire 3 seasonal firefighters between the ages of 18-21 who come from  disadvantaged families through a program called the Northern Arizona Council  of Governments Job Training Participation Alliance (JTPA). This program  gives our disadvantaged youth job skills, additional education, and the  ability to prove to themselves that they are somebody and have purpose in the community they live in. This program has enveloped a sense of pride and  acomplishment not only in the JTPA seasonals that work for us, but in the  coordinators, the fellow firefighters, and our community. The Mayer Fire District has been honored several years in a row as being the  best ran and community supported JTPA program in Yavapai County. After the fire season is over, 90% of our newly recruited firefighters and  JTPA firefighters( most of the recruits are straight out of high school)  have enough $ save up to go to community college and take on fire  science/EMS training courses furthering their endeavors to become paid  firefighters. Again, our program encourages and supports self worth, pride,  and community involvement with our younger firefighters. And would you believe, because of this support from the community and our  internal customers (firefighters), we have more available fire/EMS personnel  to cover shifts, standby's, wildland patrols, and off district fire  assignments than any other fire agency in Yavapai County. Daily constant  manning in my district is 6 year round, but during the fire season, I  typically have 20 in and around the district available to act on a moments  notice. As far as equipmet goes, our department has three type 6 engines, two type 2  water tenders, one type 3 engine, one type 2 engine, three type 1 engines,  two command buggy's, three paramedic ambulances, and an air/light support  truck out of three fire stations covering appromimatly 100 square miles and  a population of 8000. Not bad for lil 'ol MFD. Again, we have more than  enough equipment and personnel to handle a multitude of fire/EMS incidents  and any given time during the fire season. We are a very histroric and proud fire department. This has been provin by  our department's attitude, commitment, and loyalty in providing the best  level of service to our community for 30 years.  In no way would we ever  consider taking business away from from a private contractor or their  firefighters or would we tolerate any of our membership in thinking that we  are better than any other fire agency, private contractors included.  Remember, we are all in this together. In closing, I have decided to step away from the handle AZ Trailblazer. Most  of you know who I am any way. Why don't you do the same, mr/mrs/ms Noname. Catcha later! Captain Tim Irwin Dist. Fire Management Officer
02/22	Hi AB,    I feel I have to respond to the Private Contractor (NoName) who feels that a fire district is cheating the Taxpayer and the private contractor out of money. I have been a volunteer firefighter in Region 5 (Northern California) besides being a paid firefighter for the Feds. In California and a lot of other states, such as Arizona, departments like mine and like AZ Trailblazers may be called County Fire Departments, Fire Districts, or Fire Protection Districts but the funding from either the state, county, or special district don't necessarily mean that there is any significant money involved. Many of these districts, if they receive funding at all, is usually for the essential stuff for the department such as daily operating expenses (electricity, water, fuel, worker's compensation, building and vehicle insurance, etc.) and in most cases does not provide funding for new equipment or personnel, these departments have to do fundraisers, raffles, and dinners to earn and save enough money to purchase new or newer equipment, and it is miraculous when you can save enough money to purchase a new piece of fire apparatus instead of buying or begging for another hand-me-down. For those that have a paid staff, the budgets are usually so small that they do not have enough for other expenses or in a catastophic emergency happens (such as replacing an engine).   These departments are in or close to either state or federal fire protection responsibility areas (known as SRA or FRA) and respond to wildland fires within thier areas. They work with these agencies hand-in-hand and are immediately available for dispatch to local fires. Here in California, and to a degree Nevada and Arizona, Mutual Aid is heavily used during the summer fire season regardless of who's responsibility (SRA or FRA) it is, and its not just the bigger paid departments that are being called. When they are called to these big fire assignments (Single Resource, Strike Team, Task Force, etc.) they have to meet specific requirements just like the paid departments and are expeceted to work just as hard as the paid and seasonal firefighters do. When these smaller districts/departments are called, usually for water tenders, but also for engines and specialty equipment, these departments are paid a rate equal to or LOWER than that of a private contractor because of thier status. For instance, my volunteer fire company used to make $1800 per day for our 4000 Gallon Water Tender 10 years ago, and today that same tender only makes between $900-1100 (plus paying the crew) per day with 24-hr staffing, the difference is the crew on the tender/engine are paid individually or by previous agreement. The contractors I saw on the Northern and Central California Fires this last season who were there were making between $1500-2500 per day. This equipment is available to respond within minutes locally, and within an hour for larger out-of-area responses. This equipment that these fire districts are certified and ready to go, the equipment meets or exceeds the requirement that are layed down by the federal or state fire agencies, the crews, although they may be volunteer firefighters, know their equipment and their job already. There equipment is fire equipment, not just a slip-on unit, or a logging truck with a tank and pump attached. There equipment is in good shape and a constant state of readiness, staffed by people who know firefighting not just for the summer, otherwise it does not respond. What you may not be understanding is that for these departments this may be one of the few remaining ways for a struggling district to be able to purchase new equipment, replace marginal equipment, and help them to grow to be able to better provide long term services to there community. Fundrasing and donations for these small districts has dwindled over the years and the ugly monster called LIABILITY INSURANCE has prohibided many departments from having larger fundraising efforts for fear of someone getting hurt and sueing the sponsoring department. For instance, in my department we had an old semi-truck with a tank and fire rated pump on it and it barely met the requirements for a fire water tender. We operated it for seven years not just for wildland fires but alos for structure fires, we saved the money we earned from it, and in one year we were able to replace all of our older equipment with newer and better apparatus that helped our area lower it fire insurance and provide better protection. Over the last six years with our newer tender we have been able to purchase new Jaws-of-life, construct a new building, and other things that benifited our community's fire protection and rescue abilities. We do not recieve any funding from the county or state other than fuel and worker's comp insurance. We pay our bills, do our own repairs, and if we break something we pay for it, and do not receive funding from local government tax dollars. Because our our reliability, performance record, and equipment maintenance history my fire company's water tender not only responds within out county but is called on single resource assignments each summer. The local National Forest will use it when it's the closest resource, the state uses it as a first assignment water tender for all fires. This is equipment that came into being because of a dedicated group of individuals with community support wanted better fire protection for there communities where the government would not or could not provide. I bet you that AZ Trailblazer's department is similar to my example. But it's not just volunteer districts either. Smaller paid districts send out equipment for these fires not necessarily to earn money, but to help out neighboring fire agencies when called for Mutual Aid, where a fire has gotten to large or expensive for them to control. They participate because someday in the future they may be faced with a large scale fire and need others to help them control it. They may or may not be reimbursed for there participation.  In AZ Trailblazer's discussion they were reimbursed, and his firefighters were probably paid for thier time the same way a seasonal or private contract firefighter would be. As far as my community is concerned, they support that our equipment goes out on these fires because it means the money earned goes for better fire protection for the community, and when our single tender is out, another tender or engine is either positioned or staffed in our area to help fill in.  I respectfully disagree with you (NoName) in your opinion regarding fire districts going to these fires. I understand that you have expenses and problems maintaining your equipment as a private contractor, but you also know the nature of the business for contractors in wildland firefighting. This is an on-call business, subject to natural and man-caused forces, and it is very competitive with companies such as yourself, Alpine Wildfire, North Tree, PatRick, and other contractors throughout the Western U.S.. These are issues that have to be hammered out with the Forest Service, BLM, Etc.. But as a contractor, perhaps you should ask these agencies why they don't follow there own rules regarding the use of the Military when calling for aircraft and personnel? As I understand it, before military aircraft and personnel can be used nearly all government and private resources have to be utilized before such a call up can be done. I know that over the last decade there were many contractors who were not called when the military was, why aren't you contacting these reps about it? In 1997 and 1998 at least a dozen contractors called it quits or folded because the fire season was poor or the agencies decided not to follow through with there agreements regarding control burns and fuel reduction projects. As a contractor you should know this is the nature of the area you are in. I had this discussion with water tender contractors on the Kirk and Tasajara Fires this summer and they understood the nature of the game "Hurry up and wait".   You may want to ask why you were not utilized more, was there a problem with my crew or performance? Ask why the states have so many inmate crews doing handcrew work on the fire lines and how it affects you.  And if you are basing your opinion on AZ Trailblazer, why not ask hime for a description of how his district operates? MOC4546
02/22	OPSC, As a crew boss/engine captain I can see the advantage of having the portal to portal pay for the purposes of controlling your crew while they are off the clock.  However, I do not favor imposing the 24 hour working shift on my crew or myself.  Working in California I have had extensive exposure to both types of shifts.  The problem with the 24 hour shift is the lack of defined protocol for federal employees.  Many say that we are to rest (if the situation allows) between the hours of 0200- 0600, depending on who you talk to (I believe that CDF stops around midnight....correct me if I'm wrong), others flat out say "If your getting paid, get on your feet", both procedures have their flaws.  First of all, one of the first things we teach our new seasonals are the watchout situations including the one about sleeping on the fireline.  Of course there are exceptions under certain conditions, but on every shift???    and if we are suppose to rest someone had better tell everybody.  I have been on incidents where we were working side by side with CDF engines that all of a sudden left to go bed down for the evening, leaving our handcrew less effective without the water that the CDF engines were providing us with. The 24 hour shifts also wear on the crew more so than the 12 hour shifts.  When we have personnel working into the 0300 hour and beyond, the morale of the crew takes a dive, especially when the primary goal is as mundane as mop-up.  I have seen it time and time again.  Then the crew gets 24 (or more like 18-20) hours off in a closed or isolated camp with nothing to do after they have rested up, leading to a further decay in morale.  The 24 hour shift works great for CDF (because they plan their rest during the period) and during the first shift of an incident when things are really gettin' with it, after that though they become a supervisors nightmare. Pappy
02/22	this is to the subject of 24's:  It's really non productive in my eyes.  I was on a fire on the NV-UT border in early november.  got sent all the way to the Pendola fire (R-5,TNF) get there at 0500 to attend breifing.  finaly get out to my line assignment at 0900.  and sit.   mean while there screaming for resources on other divisions.  we were more than 50 hrs, in travel or work staturs.  as  more resources came in they were being requested, and some sent out.  the OH said that they were for the next days operational period.  By using 24's the overhead team effectively managed to 1. use us for 4 days and never once did my engine show up on the shift plan.  2. The overhead was calling out equipment that was to work that operational period and i'd say that less then 30% of equipment was there.  The standard response was I think that there out on the division already.  Another classic I like is being on standby all day long and already have 14 hrs on the clock and then they call you for a night assignment.  the overhead needs to manage there resources better.  It's no fun trying to work a 24' its not easy in structual firefighting and it's not any better in wildland fire.  I remember when R-3 was doing this coyote camping routine in the mid 80's and it sucked then.  After 24 years in fire and most of it in wildland.  The max amount that you can work and still be productive is 16/18 hrs. max.  I really do belive that the firefighters will be more productive (and have a better safety record) working "12's" than "24's).  great site I love it.
02/21	Abercrombie and All— I was invited and went to the Region 5 FS Division Chiefs’ meeting last week -- an illuminating  experience. Your tutoring on FF training and FF issues here on TheySaid, my research on acronyms MEL, and FFIS, and my FF1 classes meant that I could understand almost everything. Often, I had more info as a  result of reading this site than many participants. THANKS to ALL for the info, tutoring, and beginning  wisdom you’ve given me. I feel SO HONORED be included in your FIRE circle, both here, in southern CA--and at the Chief’s meeting.   Ah, AB, the power of the web! Thanks for your continuing Vision and Persistence… (and thanks Web Goddess for your far-reaching nefarious influences <teeheehee>) Where to begin -- there is so much… Ray Quintenauer (a good guy IMO) asked, “Do we have the courage to change, to put aside the politics and BS?” I echo that… and add,  “…change in optimal ways.” FIRST:  PROFESSIONALISM, PRIDE and CARING FOR EACH OTHER: The emotional highlight of the meeting was a memorial service for fallen firefighters conducted by the Honor Guard from the San Bernardino National Forest. The multi-media service took place first thing in the morning and it was listed as “optional” in the schedule. I expected a handful of people to show up, but EVERYONE came. By the end, there weren’t many dry eyes in the huge roomful of people. The honor guard was the essence of dignity, honor, and professionalism. IMO, this group is doing us a huge service in changing our attitudes about ourselves and has the potential of changing the public’s attitudes toward us, as well. Although Christian in their orientation, “Essential Spirit” (by whatever name we each call that) was present in all they did. Thank you for your Inspired Actions, Honor Guard. May there be many more!  NEXT:  the DISCONNECT between the BODY and the HEAD of the FIRE organization (OR “The HEAD cutting off the BODY in spite of itself”): The emotional low point of the meeting came when Debbie Rutherford, messenger from the Washington office, talked about the issues/changes facing us in the next fire season and beyond. This blindsided many people who haven’t read this web site for a heads-up on the issues. I saw/felt both anger and despair from participants. I will spread this report and comments over several days, but some issues must be acted on soon if change is to happen. I’ve picked what I think the group said are the most critical issues: 1039 waiver -- was only good for the last calendar year. This means that Forests may not be able to bring on some temps, including some Shots until the 24/36 kicks in, which could be as late as July. Not good … Need to get busy to change this right away by submitting an amendment to the waiver to the OPM (Office of Personnel Management, Tiny). Primary Purpose, FFIS -- Fire training is paid by straight fire dollars, but FFIS is not supposed to change what we do. Many think that billing straight fire dollars is a change that looks like a double take of the money to the detriment of fire. Help me out with this one guys. I’m still learning budget…and haven’t gotten to the cash cow walking through the corral of jackals… 401 series -- meeting at the end of the month with OPM and the WO. Some resolution is necessary for this series, especially since substantial hiring needs to happen at the Forest Chiefs’ level. 24-hour shifts – Someone said this is more of an issue outside Region 5 (I don’t know why) and requires lots of documentation.  OPCS -- Thanks for decloaking from your lurker position and asking for input from this site! We need people like you tapping the wisdom! (Also read posts from earlier in February…) Readers, we need some quality responses on these issues when asked. Take a step back and look at the pros and cons from a line position. Let’s do our homework and let them know. 14-day limit on incident assignments -- excluding travel time and with ability to appeal. More cost and paperwork in the opinion of many! But who asked us? The HEAD is disconnected from this BODY’s wisdom, IMHO!  R&R -- starts counting from the last day of rest. So people may come to a fire with 13 days since their last day off, serve one day and have to take R&R. Crazy! What about an engine crew whose members have all different time schedules for R&R? Combine that with 14 day limits and what do ya get? Chaos!!!  THIRD:  with respect to graying of FIRE FOLK and the loss of WISDOM…. In the South Region, Angeles NF and Cleveland NF have no Forest Chiefs. In the North Region, Mendocino NF, Shasta-Trinity NF, and LTBMU (whatever that is?) have no Forest Chiefs. As one person mentioned, the graying is upon us as evidenced by these unfilled positions.  And it’s CLEAR that WE’RE GOING TO BE IN DEEPER SHIT SOON…. as the high and intermediate level and fire line people retire. FYI, the chiefs put up a list on the wall at the meeting. Most people put up their names, and marked both their optional and mandatory retirement years. The mandatory (best-case scenario) results are pretty grim: From the sign-up of 70 fire people on the retirement list, 25 face mandatory retirement in the next 5 years. That’s 35% of the mid- and upper-level fire force, brothers and sisters! and an additional 26 in the next 10 years. So, of the people at the Region 5 Chiefs’ meeting who recorded retirement dates, 72% will be gone in the next 10 years (and many probably will choose to leave sooner)!  Do we have younger people with experience coming up the line? I think NOT ENOUGH. Certainly not enough with fire behavior savvy to insure safety of our youth on the firelines! Certainly not enough to step into higher positions of Incident Command Team responsibility even if the budget allowed! This does not bode well for the safety and preparedness of our country. (And what about the oldster shot crew leaders? We’re loosing the WISDOM we need on the fireground! COMPUTER PROGRAMS DON’T DO IT!) LURKERS with WO in your e-mail addresses, don’t just make change for change sake or because you’re stressed out when faced with the current fire reality. I imagine you’re not any happier with the state of affairs than we are. Let’s have some dialogue and change only what has to be changed. Use this site to get a reality check from those on the ground before you issue new policy that we have to live (or die) with for the next year. The BODY OF KNOWLEDGE here is GREAT!  UH, OH my gang is running by with water and yelling from the living room that there’s been a spot over from the fire in the woodstove onto the couch. Yikes, they’re yelling that they’re considering burnout operations on the carpet! Funny how FIRE tends to change one’s environment! Bye, ya’ll—I need to go deal with a different kind of FFE (flurry of flying embers)! Stay tuned for other issues… Ohmygosh, R5Engine captain, I fear I am hooked beyond redemption… and I still have intrusive thoughts of fire at least every 4 minutes… And I have to get donning my SCBA down to one minute and 15 seconds… And it’s time for my PT kicks after dealing with the FFE.  AAAHHHHHH!!! I love it! Mellie from Five Waters
02/21	Abercrombie and the rest of the wildland fire community: This is my first attempt to post some information on your site.  I am a Safety & Health professional who works for an agency which shall remain nameless.  Remember the directive which applies to all agencies: Punish the innocent & reward the guilty.  My interest in wildland fire was whetted after the South Canyon tradgedy.  After looking at the agency health & safety programs and talking to some you who have been in this business for ages I have found many holes in the way programs which are required are administered or ignored.  One of the most obvious is something called HEARING CONSERVATION.  This is mandated by OSHA for all employees whose 8 hour time weighted average (TWA) exposure to noise exceeds 85 Decibels, A weighted scale (DBA).  Sorry for technical jargon from another field but we all have our languages wgich are like Greek to outsiders.  Anyway the specific OSHA standard is 29CFR1910.95.  The standard does not differentiate between seasonals, 13-13s or full time employees.  All are covered.  Now who is normally exposed at or above 85 DBA?  Anyone who is a sawyer or swamper and runs a saw for ~4 hours/day, helitack crews, those who ride in helicopters, smokejumpers, heavy equipment operators, some engine crews, slurry mixers at aerial firebases, etc.  What should your agencies be doing besides handing you ear plugs?  At least having you take an annual audiometric examination- at their expense.  Wearing the hearing protection will hopefully save your hearing.  The annual audiometric exam which ideally is done at the start of each fire season will tell you if you have lost any hearing. Why for the most part are the agencies ignoring their responsibilities to comply with OSHA?  They have gotten away with it for years and figure no one will call them on it.  It costs money to have a proper audiometric exam.  Also if the folks in the field find out that this is a compensible injury/illness their OWCP costs will go up along with their injury & illness rate.  The injury & illness rate is used by OSHA for targeting agencies for inspections.  So if some of you who are sure you are above this 85 DBA threhold want to annoy the establishment you work for ask for your ANNUAL hearing test and anything else covered under the hearing standard.  Lest you think all I am concerned with is implementing some arcane OSHA standard I know that there are times on the line where your being able hear that snag as it starts to fall can be the difference between life & death.  You have a choice in these situations, lose a little hearing or possibly your life.  I know what I would choose.  Whatever you do, do it safely!  Life is fragile, take care of yourselves and your crews. Ab- Thanks for allowing me the space, you have a great website.  You are right to greet all of your brothers and sisters as heros, unsung for the most part but still heros. Something this country is unfortunately woefully short on. Fitch
02/21	Ab,       I just opened your page for the first time and must say that I really like what I see, keep up the good work and thanks for the effort.       I am surprised at a They Said posting by AZ Trailblazer, dated 2/06. He is bragging about his Mayer, Az., fire district competing against the private sector (contract wildland fire folks) with tax payers' provided equipment.  He states that his District made $50,000.+ last season renting district equipment to the State and the Feds.  I see this as a direct conflict of interest, using public provided funds and equipment to tap into the Federal fire budget and growing his department.  I have been an engine and tender contractor for 14 years and one of the biggest problems we have getting hired is the competition we face with small rural fire districts "undercutting" contractors.  I spend 10s of thousands of dollars annually on training, equipment upgrades, pre-positioning, and meeting many insurance requirements with NO taxpayer subsidization and NO promise of work.  Last season we worked only 1 fire in the Southwest and had to travel North to find fire work.  We employ mostly past USFS and BLM firefighters caught up in downsizing and college students.  I see fire districts contracting services as taking food out of the mouths of my firefighters.  I have to wonder if the citizens of Mayer would be happy to know that their equipment is leaving their district to make money, leaving their level of protection lowered.  Since when is it acceptable for the public supplied fire districts to compete directly with the private sector? (Noname)
02/20	Hi Ab, et all. Just droppin a line to let you all know I haven't dissappeared totally, just  been.. busy. With what I won't say to keep from boring you all to tears,  just making sure your pup has been watching the firework show, and has  enough free time to stop lurking to pen a quick note to some of ya. 6, Thanks for the vote of confidence, glad to know contributions opinions and  like wise are sometimes appreciated even from the non-trained or partially  trained. After all, would hate for the guards of the forest to not be able  to see the forest for the trees. To the curious (Yes Mellie, there have been other's asking...) I'm not small  as my handle suggests. Currently Im 6'1", 210 lbs. This is to clarify from  my previous posts about my handle being my 'affectionate nickname'. I was  given it because I was the biggest guy on staff last summer. (See the  December Archive!) Oh yeah.. To those who sent in acronyms, thanks. I'll have those to Ab, as  soon as I recover. *grin* As ever, Tiny, the R-6 Fire-pup

02/20	I am an ex-Hotshot, rotorhead, engine slug, etc who has worked my share of  the 24 hr shift.  In my experience -- IT SUCKS!!!! The OT is good.  That is the only good thing about it.  No crew, no matter  how physically or mentally fit, can do productive, safe work that long on a  regular basis.  The best of crews are draggin' after 18 hours or so.  The  crew, if working at all, is not productive at 3 AM.  So you are paying them  and getting little in return.  As you  noted, 24-24 is really 29-19.  By  about the third or fourth cycle the crew is rummy heading out to the line,  let alone doing safe heads-up work once they get out there.  The cumulative  fatigue is not factored in the schedule.  Every Crewboss (and  Superintendent) will tell you they are fine in that situation, but they are  not in any condition or inclination to do an honest self-assessment of crew  readiness.  No Crewboss will admit his crew needs more rest.  As an OPSC,  there are times you must assess crew condition yourself (or accept the observation of the HRSP, SOFR, or MEDL) and put a crew down for R&R, even if  it is a Hotshot Crew, the fire is raging, and there is national shortage of  Type 1 crews. It appears my soapbox wandered into a diatribe against the 21 day cycle, but  the two subjects are related.  It all relates to the effect of cumulative  fatigue, which cannot be alleviated by bussing a crew to the nearest town  for a day.  During an active season, a crew will often need SEVERAL  consecutive days off after back to back 21 day cycles.  One day is spent  doing laundry, chores, paying bills, etc.  Another day off is needed to  relax, get laid, go to the beach or pool with your significant other and a  sixpack, and FORGET for a while you are a Wildland Firefighter. THEN you can go to your next assignment rested and ready and safe. Gordon
02/20	hey guys! You'll love this one! Tim http://www.ksffa.com/you_know_you_are_a_firefighter_i.htm
02/20	I've been watching all of you express your opinions on 24/24 or different work schedules, the 14 day rotation, the pack test, and problems with Single Engine Airtankers (SEAT's). As well as, your abilities to express your feelings about capabilities of others within your own profession and their abilities to control or not control situations, which are sometimes beyond human capabilities. Along with all the rest of the information being exchanged regardless how trivial or important it is.  I came to a remarkable conclusion: You're all human and love what you do...and are able to see needs for improvement and change within your profession, regardless how much you like or dislike it. Now for the lighter side.  I, like many of you, have been watching the stats on the fires, which have already started to add up for 2000.  I know it is still early in the year, although some of you have a good head start, but I was just wondering what the rest of you old timers feel will be the two hotspots for 2000.  Two hotspots? Yep, one area with the most acres or largest fires and one with the most Interface or the area with the largest amount of National News, not local, press coverage.  I know a lot of you old timers have a "GUT" feeling, <not to be misunderstood with a dietary or physical problem that you may have> as to where the fire season will be this year.  And, for the young’ns, which have been watching the stats and indicators on the net, I'd like to hear your best guess-t-ments too.  So far up to 2/8/00:  2000,  3,164 fires with 44,594 acres.  Compared to the past 4 years during the same time:  99' 1257 fires w/ 7,275 acres; 98' 447 fires w/ 7,436a; 97' 2,104 fires w/ 51,189a; and 96's 1346 fires and 30,602a. Have Fun  Hickman  By the way, this Hilbille tips his cap to Ab for having such a FINE Site  And Remember: SAFETY needs to be a Personal Attitude and not an Accepted Standard
02/20	Hey Eric, tried to e-mail you but was sent back as a bad address. You need to  check it out. is it true that agencies need to train together before  deployment?                 BC Davis
02/19	Thanks for the kind words. We enjoyed working with ya'll. We try to treat folks so many different ways their bound to like one of them. Ab we would be proud to have you and other R-5 folks over any time. However, you still have to bait your own hook. "Boo"
02/18	The promised photo from Eric is on the Fire2 page, called Rat Creek.  Just an awesome pic.  Saved in 1024x768 so it's just right for wallpaper.  If your normal monitor rez is lower than that there are many free software programs available to reduce the image size without butchering it.  My favorite quick image program is Irfanview, available here:  Irfanview .  Ab.
02/18	Yo Fed Wildland Firefighters, a question for those inclined to comment. If FWFSA is successful (& many are working to make it so) with portal/portal, would your feelings be about 24 hour shifts be different (especially on the seiges)? Is downtime or OATS the issue? My experience with 24's has been: 0500 briefings, on line shift changes about 0830, and off shift getting back into camp about 1000 the next day. That's about 19 hours off & 29 hours on) averaging about 15.5 hours per day.  Like the 12 hour shift, folks are committed about 15-16. (Of course except for some IA hotline, they would be some downtime & may not apply to mop-up, & NOT folks in camp.) I'm an OPSC on a CIIMT and interested in your thoughts. Ab, keep up the GREAT WORK! Thanks, OPSC
02/18	6, The National Fire Academy (NFA) is in Emmitsburg MD.  The Fallen Firefighters  Memorial is on the NFA campus.  It is very impressive.  An eternal flame  burns, the flags of all 50 states are displayed, bronze plaques listing the  names of our brothers and sisters who died in the line of duty for that year.  Go here for the NFA:  http://www.usfa.fema.gov/nfa/index.htm Go here for the Memorial: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/ffmem/ I am an all risk firefighter with 33 years in the service (been there, done  that).  I have been working closely with federal wildland firefighters for  the past several years and I have the greatest respect for wildland  firefighters.  I am supportive of your need for equitable pay and better  working conditions.  I suggest that all of you join your labor organization  and work for it. Dean Dysart
02/18	New BIA logo on Logo Page.  Ab.
02/18	Thought you all might be interested in changes to 310-1 coming out this month.  The passages below are copied from a CDF memo summarizing the coming changes.  Some sound good, others... (IOSWT  is Incident Operations Standards Working Team) Fireball XL5 IOSWT reviewed required training for participants. IOSWT feels that we are 60-70% responsive to the needs for reduced training. There is still an increase from the 1993 version, but less than was considered in the March 1999 draft.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  Currency standards too high – the IOSWT agreed that some subordinate positions could maintain currency for a higher level position. Many currency standards were reduced from the March 1999 version of the 310-1. There was a perception of a bottleneck from the Single Resource Boss to the Task Force Leader position. The IOSWT has made modifications in the qualifications that allow persons to qualify from a number of subordinate channels. Fire use vs, fire suppression positions were looked at by both the IOSWT and the Fire Use Working Team. It was agreed that not all positions could be combined and both teams have agreed on qualification standards for these positions. I have tried to capture the major changes to the 310-1 for the operations section (where most of the changes are) as well as other significant changes below: Firefighter 2 and Firefighter 1 remain unchanged Single Resource Boss (all types) require Crew Boss (S-230) and Intermediate Fire Behavior (S-290).  Strike Team Leader (all Types) require Fire Operations in the Urban Interface (S-215) and Task Force/Strike Team Leader (S-330). Task Force Leader requires Introduction to Wildland Fire Behavior Calculations (S-390) and Task Force/Strike Team Leader (S-330). A person can qualify as a Task Force Leader in one of two ways. 1.       Satisfactory performance as any Strike Team Leader plus satisfactory position performance on a wildland fire as a Task Force Leader. 2.       Satisfactory performance in any two single resource boss positions (one of which must be crew or engine) plus satisfactory performance as an Incident Commander Type 4 plus satisfactory position performance as a Task Force Leader on a wildland fire. Division Group Supervisor must be as a Task Force Leader and is required to have Division/Group Supervisor (S339). Operations Section Chief Type 2 requires Command and General Staff (S-420). In the Planning Section, the major changes are that the Fire Behavior Analyst (FBAN) and the Long Term Fire Analyst (LTAN) are two separate positions. The FBAN requires Advanced Wildland Fire Behavior Calculations (S-490) and Advanced Fire Behavior Interpretation (S-590). The FBAN needs to be qualified as a Division/Group Supervisor. The LTAN requires S-490, S-590, and Long Term Risk Assessment (S-492) and FARSITE: Fire Growth Simulation (S-493). To become qualified as a Situation Unit Leader, a person needs to be qualified as any Strike Team Leader or in any two single resource boss positions (one of which must be crew or engine) plus Incident Commander Type 4.
02/18	Ab: I thought fire people would be interested to know that early this week the  Wildland Fire Fighter Foundation, the new Firefighter Fund administrators,  gave a check for $5,000 to Dick Blood's widow in a small ceremony at the  firefighter memorial located on the campus of Boise Interagency Fire Center. Dick Blood was killed while serving as a crew bus driver on the Big Bar  Complex and was working for Special Operations, a fire service contractor.  Blood was killed at the Anderson, CA Fairgrounds by an unknown person or  persons. The investigation of this murder is being handled by the Anderson  Police Department, and while no suspects have been named or arrested the  Department is still actively working on the case. The long delay for the Firefighter Fund to respond to this sad incident was  caused by the problems of moving the Fund from the National Forest Foundation  to the newly established Wildland Firefighter Foundation that is also the  "keeper" of The Wildland Firefighters Monument at the Boise Fire Base.  The Fund was established to help firefighters and their families when bad  things happen shortly after the Storm King Incident, has a goal to provide  financial help immediately when a firefighter or family needs immediate help. We hope the new administrators of the Fund will help make this fund achieve  the goal of immediate and humanitarian assistance when needed without the  problems that were encountered in helping Mrs. Blood. Money for the fund  comes from fire agencies and private donations. We are pleased to support the fund, but the similarity of names is  coincidental. We are separate organizations. John Marker Wildland Firefighters Magazine
02/18	Dean, "I understand that you limit this board to Wildland Firefighters."  There is a differance between limiting a discussion to Wildland Firefighters and wildland firefighting.  Both Mellie and Tiny have contributed many insights to these discussions, and I owuld hope that S-130/190 are not required to give an opinion.  (Ab, correct me if I am wrong!)  Non-wildland firefighter views/opinions help keep the blinders off and help us keep persceptive.  What state is the NFA in Emmitsburg in?  I did check out the National Stuctural Firefighter Union (or whatever they call themselves!) memorial in Colorado Spring, CO and noticed that if you were a member of a Federal agency or a VFD that you were not important enough to make their monument.  I guess that it takes specific requriements (none of which the Storm King 14 met) to die in the line of duty.  The memorial is on public property, owned by the City of Colorado Springs! 6
02/17	The only time "Success" comes before "Work" is in the dictionary.    ---The Vent
02/17	Ab, yours is the first website I launch when I come on line.  I always go to  the "They Said It" to see where the heat is being applied.  I understand that  you limit this board to Wildland Firefighters.  I have been to the NFA in  Emmitsburg where the Fallen Firefighters Memorial is located and have seen  the flags at half staff for Wildland Firefighters as well as for the pavement  queens. Yours (Wildland Firfighters) are a very large part of the national resource  collectively called the Fire Service.  Please pass this rather lengthy E-mail  (if you can't use it all, then cut it up) below on to your large and active  following.  We can stand on the curb and bitch about how bad the parade is,  or we can step off into the street, road, trail or what ever, and become part  of the parade and make it better. Dean Dysart The letter from Dean can be found here:  National Fire Academy Alumni Association, Ab.
02/17	Hey Pulaski: I have been dispatching SEAT's in Arizona for 8 fire seasons now and am also a SEAT manager, I see the benefits of SEAT's here but I think you should be using the right tool for the right job. SEAT's are designed to fly in close to a fire, be reloaded at a portable base and should have at maximum 10 minute turn arounds on a fire. I see this resource mis-used all the time, mostly by folks that get hung up on Fixed SEAT bases, they want the planes to fly over big mountains and have 45 minute turn arounds, not acceptable, move those small planes to within 5 or 7 minutes fly time of the fire, that is what makes them so versatile. SEATs can move in and help heavies tie off or reinforce lines, help with structure protection and a multitude of other things. Make sure you are using SEAT's in the capacity in which they are designed. Dont piddle on your fire with one SEAT all day when a heavy drop or two will do the job. Dont try to mop up hot spots when a Helicopter is much better, use the right tool for the job. zoniespatcher

02/17	There's a nice new airtanker photo on the Airtanker2 page, which is also a new page.  Ab.
02/17	Hi Ab doesn't really pertain directly to fire but I thought you might be interested in this report. Covers the concerns regarding employee safety in Nevada. Nevada Report Ties to the Forest Supervisors resignation over employee safety. Bob Thanks Bob, it does make for some interesting reading.  If you readers think you work in a hostile environment, re