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03/31	Ab, Concerning "Just One More Time": glad I did not put anything in there that I did not want my wife to see.  Was reading her your comments on the bottom of the message where you choked up and she asked what it was all about so I brought up the Just One More Times that I sent you and she now wants a copy of them to keep.  <Up on the soapbox>  To those of you that are still facing the dragon or who are just starting in the wildland fire business.  Over 30 years in the business I have been everything from a Grunt to Smokejumper to Dispatcher to AFMO to Div Sup on a team, so feel somewhat qualified to offer the following advice. DO NOT FORGET THE PEOPLE BACK HOME WHILE YOU ARE GONE AND TREAT THEM SPECIAL WHEN YOU GET BACK!  I had a good wife that realized fire was my mistress and something I needed in my life.  I was one of those that believed you took no time off during the summer and the job came first.  Did not realize how wrong this attitude was till I went to a retirement party and the guy broke down, cried and asked his family to forgive him for never spending anytime in the summer with them.  That was in 1990 and I have scheduled time off each summer since.  You may think you are indispensable to the organization; but, believe me you are not!  No, I don't care what your position or title is either!   If you have a serious illness and the Doc tells you to stay away from work for 2 weeks, the outfit will still be functioning when you get back, right?  So what is a long weekend or even a week with your family going to do?  Betcha not much.  The old argument "We need the money" is darn weak at best.  I know because it sounded weak everytime I used it to justify not going on family weekends at the coast or to family reunions.  The time and money you spend on your family that week/weekend will pay dividends you may not see for years to come; but, it will be better than any money you may have in the bank during the same timeframe.  If you have people working for you and you think they should not have timeoff during fire season, you need to seriously rethink your management methods.  Having them tell you in May they want to take the family somewhere in August is acceptable believe it or not.  (They also need to understand, should you be in the middle of a lightning bust things may have be put on hold.  If you have good people that respect you and trust your judgment, you won't have to say anything about sticking around.)  Over the years I have seen alot of marriages/families break up because, in most cases, the guy did not give his family a little time in the summer or acknowledge the sacrifices made by those left at home.  When you are on fire the significant other is still home taking care of business and keeping the ship afloat.  One thing we always did at the end of fire season was find a babysitter, take a long weekend and go to some expensive, exotic (translated: somewhere we had never been before) place and enjoy each others uninterrupted company.  (You made all that OT now spend some of it wisely!)   When someone is killed or gets burned over and it is all over the news, sit down with the spouse and kids and explain to them what happened and what you will do to try and keep it from happening to you.  If you think because they do not ask that they do not worry or have questions, you need to get your head out of the smoke & heat and come back to the real world.  My wife and daughter never asked much about what went on when I was fighting fire; but, that all changed on July 6, 1994.  I spent alot of time answering questions about the news coverage and what I was doing to ensure it would not happen to me or anyone under me.  If you feel you may be one of those that is putting family on the backburner as mentioned above, I write this not to condemn you; but, to try to get you to open your eyes.  Eventually you will be out of the fire business, but your family will always be there unless you drive them away before you retire.  <Off the soapbox>  Had a unique opportunity in '94 to have my family visit a fire camp I was in.  Answered alot of their questions and let them see how Dad lived when he was gone from home.  It was a real eye opener for them.  Try it if you get the chance.  Firehorse
03/31	Ab, I am very pleased as you should be, to see the old fire dogs adding to my  original post of One More Time.....  A person doesn't really know what the  outcomes of his/her writings will be until much later, and that is the fun  part of life.  It has been said "Don't test the depth of the water by using  both feet," but if that were the case in life nothing new would be attempted.   Your web site is such a great place to go and share thoughts, feelings,  gripes, successes, and failures in the wildland fire service. Pulaski, Firehorse, and Hickman, I too remember the fire service before there were Strike Team Leaders, and  dispatch tones.  I can remember when every fireman (today we are  firefighters) could be a fire boss, fire engines were called Trucks, water  tenders were called Tankers, and dispatchers were firemen too.  Fires were  often reported by way of a local rancher running in and yelling that there  was a fire on his ranch.  Offduty firemen were alerted of the fire by an air  horn on the repair shop, the second truck on the fire was always manned  (staffed now) by volunteers who knew as much about firefighting as the  regulars, and they didn't need to be baby-sat on either.  We all worked on  the fire until it was out because there wasn't anyone to relieve us.  Our  families brought us food and a change of underwear, if they could find us,  and they answered the phones and dispatched for us while we were out.  We all  carried hand tools and were jack of all trades on the fire.  We didn't have  to pay for the water we used to put out the fire either (can you believe now  they bill us for putting out a fire on their property that they started?).  I  remember the first air drop on my first brush fire.  It came from a WW II  B-17 flying at around 65 knots, and up-slop!  The mud was called Bentenite  and I believe it was a by product of Twenty Mule Team Borax.  It sterilized  the soil for a few years after the fire.  And we all fought fire better then  than we do now. To those in the Federal Fire Service,  Get deeply involved in your Association, http://www.fwfsa.org/.    You are such good firefighters, but you are beating yourselves up  and/or leaving the service too soon for a better pay, or you are having to  retire too young, and you are not being compensated for it.  You owe it to  your families to get the best pay and working conditions you can.  You owe it  to the young ones coming up behind you who just want to belong to the best  occupation in the world.  Keep this thought in mind, "Your employer is only  renting your services, and if they can keep the rent down, don't you think  they will"? Stay safe and enjoy each day on the line is if it were your last fire, stay  in touch with the friends, love a little, laugh a lot, and live life to its  fullest. Hunter '45
03/31	Gotta do this...in thinking back to my trips both east and west... One more time..  ..of waking up on a cool Idaho morning to the sound of an elks bugling and not being able to see 50 feet due to the inversion layer. ..of sitting on the side of a mountain at 8000 feet watching the colors of an Idaho sunset against giant column of smoke. ..of looking into a valley of blackend ash on an evening bus ride out and seeing the sparkling of hot embers looking like minature cities from above the earth. ..of walking across an ice cold mountain stream in bare feet after working on Division J all day in the hot California sun. ..in walking through burnt over sand in Florida in bare feet. ..in waking up to the sound of an Officer in the Army yelling at his troops to get their 'La-Z asses out of the sack' ..in listening an Indian Hot Shot Crew do their Native Chants to their Gods at the end of a fire. ..sitting around an open fire pit with a group of fellow fire fighters and feeling more warmth than heat from the fire. ..and last, but no means least...Sitting watching in Awe at the awesome power produced by a fire running up the side of a 8000 foot mountain and realizing how large an effort it is for man to slow it and how small an effort it would be for God to slow it with a small shower. Hickman
03/31	Ab, When I first saw the logo for the Fed. wildland union I thought I was at the IAFF union page! It looks remarkably like our national union logo, the International Association of Firefighters. It's about time someone gets you folks organized, when CDF affiliated with the national union, good things began happening for us i.e.: shorter work weeks, better pay and retirement etc. Our employees association was good, but with added muscle got better. If the Fed. wildland folks can get organized , there is no telling what can happen for you.I'll be interested to see how things go! By the way, CDF's latest controversy, is a uniform change. Yes, after these many years, the familiar green pants and tan shirts are going away in favor of , (are you ready?) Navy Blue! Yes that's right, we are joining the ranks of every other fire dept. in the country. Who got this for us, you might ask? Why, the union of course. Look for our new fashion statement at a wildland fire near you . Engineer Emmett CDF Not too surprisingly the FWFSA is affiliated with the IAFF, although the FWFSA is an association, not a union.  You're also right on regarding CDF and the benefits they've gained.  I worked for them prior to their getting organized and remember those meager days.  Ab.
03/30	just one more time...Id like to step onto the crew bus (or crew carrier nowadays) and smell  the sweet mixture of sweat and smoke. ...stagger into camp still hot, sweaty and tired, reach down into the drink tub, grab a ice cold milk and chug it down without takin a breath (and wishin it was a brewski). ...hear the friendly banter in the bus on the way back from a grueling shift slowly settle down to quiet snoring. ...pitch one more FNG into the fold-a-tank. ...make that trip with the entire crew down to the bar after slammin line the first day of the new season. ...pry my fingers off the saw to gas'er up again. (Those who were around before anti vibration handles know what I mean!) ...Get back home at 2 in the morning after being gone for weeks and having to sit and sharpen tools so you are ready to go again tomorrow. and the humorus flip side...you know you are old when someone makes up a "Just one more time.." retirement list and uses words like, strike team leader and dispatch tones... terms which that werent even invented yet when you started playin the game.   Pulaski
03/30	I hope you all have noticed the new Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) logo at the top of this page.  This site supports and encourages their efforts.  While there are certain managers who discourage membership and espouse false rumors related to the ongoing efforts of this organization, I suggest you visit their site and decide for yourself if this hard working association merits your membership.  The organization's web site is newly relocated, revamped, and can be found  by clicking the above logo.  The new webmaster vows to maintain the site in the manner it's serious intentions demand.  All email to this site will now receive a quick, personal response.  I encourage each and every one of you United States federal wildland firefighters to join and support the FWFSA.  With numbers there is power.  You can make a difference.  Abercrombie
03/30	Mellie,  Sorry for your friend's accident. The bad brush boys of Mayer are praying for his fast recovery. Now for you. So, so dissapointed I was to hear that you were in my neck of the woods, and didn't even stop by for a nice vegetarian meal off the grill or a few drinks at the Brewery in Prescott. Oh well, I'm sure sometime this summer our paths will cross. Just don't let it happen again!!  jk :)~  Hunter 45 and Firehorse,  You guys just about brought tears to my eyes with your rendition of "Just one more time." I'll be 31 this May, and going into my 13th season in wildland. I still remember my first fire in Southeast Arizona, loosing my virginity to a "very experienced" MSU college girl in Phillipsburg Montana on the Combination fire in '88 (we were in town, not on the fire!!) working my ass off on many 18-20 hour days on the line, and losing personal friends on the "Storm King" incident. I can honestly say that I would not trade those experiences for anything in this world. The friends and experiences you attain over the years is nothing no one else can experience except for those of us who put our lives on the line every day, every season, every year. I can only hope and pray that when I decide to retire (20 years from now), I will have my own list of "just one more time" to share with a new generation of firefighters. Ab, I'll say it again, thanks for one hell of a site!!   AZ Trailblazer (seems more people now me by this handle than my real name!! :) ps, the rain 'isa' flying in Northern AZ. Looks like fire season is put off for a few more weeks!!  firepup; you need help?? send me your request to: tim_irwin@hotmail.com Last night I was quoting some of the "One Last Time" statements to my wife when I had to pause cause something happened to my throat.  It felt like there was a big lump or something.  My voice cracked, I had  a hundred flashbacks in 10 seconds, I had to stop talking.  She asked me if I was ok. . .I told her I'd never felt better!  Abercrombie
03/30	Several new logos on the logo2 page.  The Black Hills NPS is one of the best I've ever seen!  Ab.
03/30	Great Website! Good info. We would like to join your website. We are a  Canadian/Swedish company and offer a full range of wildland firefighting  equipment from pumps to nozzles including personal protective equipment for  the wildland firefighter. We specialize in suppression/prescribe burning  activities and consult for the Swedish Emergency Services. We have the first  and only heli-rappel firefighting crew in Sweden. Visit us @  www.wildlandfireint.com Glad you like the site, but there really isn't a "joining" process.  Look around, make yourself at home.  Send us photos of fire where you stomp 'em.  Ab.
03/30	Hey Ab, loved the old Dispatcher picture.  Got any more to share?  I feel like we're kind of the forgotten link out here.     RTH Don't have any more like that one RTH.  Don't worry, dispatchers are never forgotten for too long, they're too easy to blame for everything!. Ab.
03/30	Hey Ab, Thanks for posting the NEWRL registration form...attached is a copy that should print cleaner. By the way...If I were a MN Dept. of Natural Resources employee...still, I would have been fired for my reply about Gov. Ventura. The DNR has been applying a policy regarding workplace respect to smokechaser/activists that publicly criticize any DNR or State official. fear tactic to shut people up. That is the main reason someone had to risk being fired/blackballed to make our organization work.  I have recently been contacted by a spate of Federal Forests...looking for experienced smokechasers to hire. Apparently they are nervous about the lower and lower level of experience on the fireline...and think they had better hire some experience early in the season as cheap insurance. I could not agree more. I am sending them the list I have and have signed them up as subscribers...the NEWRL is getting much bigger than we anticipated when we started it. Lots of firefighters looking for "blacker pastures" and lots of contractors and govt. fire folk looking to hire them. Got to get back to work building the list. Dana  Here's the new application:  NEWRL  Ab.
03/29	Hey Firehorse I hear ya loud and clear brother. I too would like to get out and gear up just one more time. Got married and responsible,wildland fire suppression was the victim in my life. However I will never forget the friends, the sights, and the wonder of fire. Maybe we will both get to saddle the helo and take another ride, geared up of course. My addition would be.... just one more time on initial attack, swinging a pulaski, snorting smoke, and ducking slurry. Ya all have a safe summer now ya hear, Postal
03/29	Hi Ab and all. Bet you all thought yer pup had gotten swallowed into a deep trench of homework or something. Well, truth be known I did for a while. Between tending to car wrecks with the VFD and quarterly finals I've been a bit busy, and I'll have to restate that that is the last time I'll not read the page for over a week. Now for the point of this message: I need help. Yeah, that's right, your exuberant, journalist/fire-fighter wanna-be pup needs help, and on no easy topic either. I have been assigned a task to research and communicate my findings on any given topic, and, silly me, chose the on-the-job life of a wildland fire fighter, a topic in whcih he has very little knowledge base to write about.  This being said, if any of you old dogs out there would be willing to share some experiences with me I'd appreciate it beyond words. Some things I'd be interested to hear about include: How long you waited for dinner back at camp, Equipment malfunctions (chains, pumps, even broken pulaski handles (HEAVEN FORBID!)), Discussions over coffee in the morning, how much sleep you did (or didn't) get. Details details details. I may not be a skillful as a writer as Tom Clancy is in relating everything, but I'd like to try to emulate his accuracy. How do you guys live while you are doing what you love? Dispatchers: I could use words of wisdom from you as well, Maybe even spotters, or look-out tower keepers. I want to know how life is from the first waft of smoke on the horizon to the last bit of soot you wash from your face. Once again, if any of you old dogs would be interested in sharing any thing with me, I'd appreciate it. Send e-mail to rangertiny@hotmail.com Thanks in advance, Tiny, the R-6 Fire-pup For those of you who aren't aware of who Tiny is, get y'er butt in the Archives pages and do some research.  For the regular readers, help him out!  Actually Tiny, the One More Time thread may be all you need.  Thre is some great stuff in those posts!  Ab.
03/29	Hello Firefighters and Abercrombie This is my first visit to your site. Nice colors and setup. Thanks for the  unofficial version of the Rains Report. I heard I could get it here. I tried  to download the official pdf version earlier today from a FS website.  Downloading was taking a VERY LONG time and crashing other programs. I  finally gave up. The version you link to is much easier to get onto my  computer. I'm going to send some friends over here to get a fast copy. Do  you do this often? It's a good service! rkeck Glad you are here rkeck.  You ask, "Do I do this often?"  Do I do what often?  Do I provide a place for people to voice their opinions and post information that may not be obtainable elsewhere?  Hopefully. . . Ab.
03/29	re: notes about the video clip from Sacramento, from Mellie, HELLitorch et al: the webmasterboy for the CIIMW website is now aware of the browser incompatibility problems and is working on them. patience is a virtue. kelly. Yup, 'an knowledge is power, but only when it's shared.  Ab.
03/29	Mellie To play the honor guard video in netscape, open real player and cut and paste the URL (http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ciimw/ ) into the open location window. It's not too good of a clip, but you'll get the idea. HELLitorch
03/29	Hey Ab., Have not had a chance to read They Said for over a week...lobbying in St. Paul...it is the legislative season. To the post regardng support by our Gov. Jesse Ventura. The MWFA has repeatedly asked the Gov. to respond in any way to our letters to him. NO RESPONSE. Even worse...his commissioner of Natural Resources also refuses to respond...has told the very underlings that are responsable for causing/ignoring problems to "deal with us". Since they would rather keep thier past mistakes quiet...they do not "deal" with us. Unless of course their edict to make an example of me by officially blackballing me is thier way of dealing. Since this has been thier standard way of "dealing with troublemakers" in the past...and they informed me in writing that my activism was "affecting my future employability" over a year ago...I expected it. What an impotent response...considering that as the administrator of the NEWRL I now have more fire job contacts than any other person on the planet.  I was a strong Jesse Ventura supporter when he was "talking the talk"...about creating a state govt. that is responsible to the people of the state... unfortunately once he was elected he promptly(and conveniently) forgot about it. Just another politician with campaign promises...he doesn't "walk the walk". We have learned that to make significant changes (which the MWFA has) we needed to take chances and fight...going directly to the legislature and media. I have no regrets for the chances I took. Risk=Reward. As always I am more than willing to help other interested in starting a similar Association in thier state...or going national. We have finalized the MWFA National EmergencyWildfireResourceList registration form and fee. If you are willing to post it Ab I would appreciate it immensely. I can then devote more time to administering it and well...life. 10-4 Dana.  Interested parties can find the aplication here: MWFA Application Ab.
03/29	Hellitorch, Tonka and All, Helli, thanks for the honor guard link. It doesn't work with Netscape. I'll try to view it on a friend's computer. (I don't think the people maintaining many of the FS sites realize that they're set up only for Internet Explorer and, hence, exclude about 40% of the population of readers. Wonder if there's a conspiracy going with Bill Gates?) Tonka (and Ab and others), great job on the new FWFSA web page! The new look and additional information are *SERIOUS* contributions to the statement that we are "professionals"! As most of you know, the web is soooooooo powerful in getting the word out. Thanks you guys, for doing the tedious work of making FF issues known in Washington via the web and/or going there in person! Hey, we need people to sign up! We'll have POWER in numbers! Everyone, I hope you're being safe out there. A good friend whom I spent time with last Wed. at the Sacramento meetings was hit by a 12"DBH falling snag while hooking a slopover up here in our mountains. He's been in ICU since late Friday with 3 cracked thoracic vertebrae. The docs think he'll be OK, but he's pretty immobalized now! My prayers are with him and his family.  EACH of you, PLEASE BE SAFE for all of us. I love ya'll. Mellie
03/28	Here's an unofficial link to the report known as the Raines Report, a report examining large fire costs:  http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/rains/   Ab.
03/28	A lot of hard work has been, and is being done to benefit you, the Wildland firefighter.     The FWFSA has been  in Washington D.C. addressing the IAFF convention and visiting Congressional offices. There is lots of support for our issues. To find out what they are, "stop Lurking"  and lend your support, visit http://www.fwfsa.org Don't stand by quietly reaping the benefits, we need your support!!! -Tonka Abercrombie concurs and will be working with Tonka to help promote the FWFSA as he overhauls and maintains the new, improved, web site.
03/28	Congratulations to Stan Stewart the new Los Padres Hot Shot Superintendent, may the tradition continue. oldboy
03/28	MOC4546, I have a copy of the 1983 Water Handling and Equipment Guide.  I will be happy to assist, what you got to trade? WP
03/28	Hunter '45, You can add these to your "Just One More Time" list: Just One More Time: I would like to be humping up the line or scouting ahead of the Division and thinking this is a young person's game and it is time to quit.  Knowing full well that I would be back next year. Just One More Time: I would like to feel the straps of my line pack cutting into my shoulders and waist at the end of a shift. Just One More Time: I would like to be sitting in an Idaho wilderness Spike Camp meadow with 150 other people, eating dinner brought in by a pack string and watching a gorgeous sunset. Just One More Time: I would like to be in that same meadow hugging Tom Shepard as he got off the helicopter and feeling like I drained off some of the pain he was feeling that September day in '94.  Just One More Time: I would like to teach a class of 280 new people in Basic Fire School and have some of them come up after the final exam and say they think they have found something they will love to do. Just One More Time: I would like to be in the middle of a dying 20,000 acre South Zone fire looking for hotspots and run into an old friend I smokejumped with years ago. Just One More Time: I would like to go on a 3.5 mile training run and agree beforehand that we would not make a race out of it for the last 1/2 mile.  All the time knowing "Mouse" would pick up the pace on his 26" legs and I would be in hot pursuit with my 34" legs.  Then spend our cool down time arguing over who started racing first. Just One More Time: I would like to sit in the Glen Helen Regional Park and complain about the frozen turkey dinner I was having for Thanksgiving.  (Just remembered the shovel box races across the lake there also.) Just One More Time: I would like to be on a torch helping light a unit and wondering why anyone would knowingly choose to work in an office. Just One More Time: I would like to get that late night/early morning call "The team is up" from the Ops Chief or "I just heard rumbling in clouds to the SW and they are headed this way" from the lookout. Just One More Time: I would like to hear my wife say "Not another fire T-shirt". Just One More Time: I would like to have the Midnight Suns, ZigZag, Redmond and Prineville Hotshots on my Division and shake my head at the amount of work they produced on a daily basis, day after day.  Just One More Time: I would like to be in R-8 fighting fire with a fire rake. Just One More Time: I would like to relive the last fire I was on with the knowledge that it would be that last time I would ever gear up in Nomex, line gear, hardhat, gloves and Whites. I would like to feel the heat and smell the smoke. Just One more Time: I will remember all the places I have been, country I have seen and most importantly; friends I have made thru being connected to wildland fire suppression and fire prevention Firehorse
03/28	I was showing the fireman that works for us your page so I thought I might say Hi. Ron Belveal Hi.  Ab.
03/28	Hunter '45, Don't feel bad, there's the contract fire people that are looking for firefighters with your attitude and experience.  Give a local contract fire company a call.   It may not be the steady shot of wildland fire, but it will give you a chance to sip that morning cup of coffee with the crew and push you to keeping that body in the best shape (as possible) for many years to come.
03/27	Mellie If you missed the bagpipes go to: http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ciimw/ click on Day-to-day highlights from the workshop and Video of Honor Guard Ceremony. You need Real Player to run it. HELLitorch
03/27	The new link to the 310-1 Wildland Fire & Prescribed Fire Qualification System Guide - 2000 is: http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/docs/docs.htm --Kelly
03/27	To Hickman and Firehorse,  I too, am fast approaching my last fire season.  My knees look like two old  beat-up leather footballs from all of the repairs we have had to make on them  over the years.  That being said, I just can't see myself not being able to  make the next fire season,  even though it has to happen soon.  I have put together a short list of things that kept me coming back each year  for the past 30+ years.  I call it "Just One More Time".  There are many more  reasons to come back than this short list, and I invite all the old fire dogs  out there to add to this list of: "Just One More Time" Just One More Time: I would like to make the morning shift change, sip that  first cup of coffee with the off going crew, and make plans for the upcoming  day with my crew. Just One More Time: I would like to empty out my IA pack, replace the old  chewing gum, eye wash, toilet paper, candy bars, and fusees from last fire  season. Just One More Time: I would like to plan my vacation around the upcoming fire  season, and be sure not be gone during the full moon period. Just One More Time: I would like to feel the adrenaline rush as the dispatch  tones are going off sending my crew on a fire response. Just One More Time: I would like to hear our engineer yell "Holy Shit, look  at that header", look up, and see the fire in the next district, and hope  that we will be first on scene. Just One More Time: I would like to wake up in the middle of the night to the  sound of a major wind event, knowing that it’s a matter of time before the  dispatch tones will go off. Just One More Time: I would like to feel my boots wrap around my ankles as I  lace up in the early morning dew. Just One More Time: I would like to stand in the chow line with a hundred  other strangers of all sizes shapes and origins from all around the country,  anticipating the sausage and eggs, OJ and hot coffee. Just One More Time: I would like to get that 2300 hour phone call from the  dispatcher telling me to be at some far off ranger station for an 0500  Operational Briefing. Just One More Time: I would like to lean over the hood of the truck with the  Crew Sups and Strike Team Ldr’s and work out a plan for the day. Just One More Time: I would like to come off the fireline, squat down waiting  for the ride back to camp, leaning back on my pack and knowing that we all  gave it a 100%. Just One More Time: I would like to stand around the warming fire in the  evening at the spike camp and talk about all the fires we fought in the past  and how good we were then. compared to now. Just One More Time. . . Hunter '45
03/27	Re:  MOC4546 post about things that need to change for wildland fire folks... MOC, I couldn't agree with your post more.  In fact, I posted something  similar a couple of weeks ago. There is only one problem with your post...You talk about not being  "political".  Unfortunately, the issues going on with the federal wildland  pay issues ARE POLITICAL. We are in a cycle where Congress allocates our budget.  They base our budget  on what we tell them we do.  Right now, NFMS is the budgeting tool we use to  tell them how much money we need to be at our "most effective level".  Nationwide, we are not consistent in what we think is "our business".  We are  also not consistent in our thinking about our cost/benefit for the land we  protect.  All this plays a factor in the money we get to do our work. I work in R-5.  California is constantly being criticized as being "out  there" when it comes to how we do business.  Ya know what?  We DO do business  differently.  We have to.  Our seasons tend to last longer.  We have some  issues that other regions don't have to deal with.  I'm not going to list the  issues, you all know what they are. There are a lot of good people out here taking on NATIONAL issues for the  greater good, including many that you've addressed here.  The biggest battle  we face is the "traditional" mindset that "older generation" fire folks hold  onto.  Many of these folks are currently in policy making positions.  We hear  things like, "FS fire modules are here for management and protection of the  natural resources.  We are not funded to be a professional firefighters.  We  are not funded for medical runs."  So guess what?  We are not funded for  other "risks" unless they are directly related to protection of the natural  resources or requested by FEMA.  Because we don't tell Congress this is work  that we do. This is the mindset that keeps us from making much progress in the areas you  say we need to advance.  I don't want to imply that EVERYONE in policy making  positions holds onto the "habits, traditions and past practices" that hold us  back.  There are several upper management officials who are working very hard  to help increase the incentives for more FS employees to support fire  management activities. It isn't fair to lump all management into a "cesspool".  For every manager I  hear saying "that's not the way we do it", I've heard ground pounders say the  very same thing.  We should be proud of our traditions.  I've worked for this  organization for over 20 years because of some of these traditions.  But we  also need to know when to evolve beyond those traditions.  Appreciate where  we come from, but don't hold on to those beliefs to the point where we  paralyze ourselves.  If we don't start evolving beyond these pay issues,  we're going to become extinct. Firefighters who love this work also need to get paid for what they are  worth.  They can no longer feed their families on their love for this job.  They need to feed their families 12 months out of the year, not just 6  months.  They need to earn salaries that are equal to the risks they take on  and the professionalism they display. I heard at the CIIMT meeting last week that the portal-to-portal issue is  dead.  I heard that the 24 hour shifts are just a ploy to get  portal-to-portal pay.  So, we're being told we can't use them as viable shift  options to put fires out. These are all RUMORS!  This is all BULLSHIT.  We have many tools available to  us to help us get our work done.  We need to use as many of them as we can.  A hammer may work to pound in a nail, but it doesn't work well to install a  window. I've challenged you to write to your local Congressional representatives to  get them to understand the issues.  That's the external way to get these  issues addressed.  If you continue to depend on internal sources to get these  changes made, it won't happen quickly. We need to attack this issue from both flanks just like we would attack a  fire.  These issues won't get contained if we don't do this. "@"
03/27	There is a lot of frustration out there about the packtest, primary purpose budgeting, max-out pay, the decreased number of the "militia", etc.  Seems to me that we have 3 trends that are going to come together in a train wreck: 1. Fewer firefighters available to put into the field. 2. Extreme fire behavior becoming more comman due to fuel accumulations resulting from past fire suppression.  You see alot more fires blowing and going now than you did in the 1970s. 3. More people building their houses in the woods and not following any type of interface safety guidelines.   The net result is that we are going to have more large fires (exhibiting extreme fire behavior), have more resources (houses) in the wildland to protect, and will have fewer resources to use to do our jobs. The bottom line for me is that if I can help keep the people that I work with SAFE!, I won't lose to much sleep about the rest.  I will continue to try to do my job to the best of my ability with the resources provided, but if we lose a few houses in the process, oh well.  Sounds callous I know, but I have yet to be stampeded by rich people asking me for advice on how to build a fire-safe house out in the woods. I hate to sound like a motivational speaker, but the future is full of opportunities.  If you supervise a group of firefighters safely through a potentially hazardous situation you can educate them and possibly earn their respect.  If you refuse to send them into dangerous situations you are doing the highest calling that you can do as a fire supervisor.  Folks, things are going to continue to appear to go downhill.  So what?, we can not much about it.  Keep your people SAFE and just recognize that we are going to be handed incredable photo opportunities!  Keep that camera ready! 6 I don't see you as being callous 6, just realistic (or for those readers with a college degree, pragmatic).  Many firefighters I know spent part of the off season trying to rid themselves of guilt feelings over escaped fires they used to be able to catch.  Ab.
03/27	I'm looking for wildland fire "slang" terminology with meanings.  A local band is writing lyrics and ask for terms used by wildland firefighters.  The normal glossary terms I have, but it's the slang that's really needed for music.   email to firemeup@fire-stop.com         Thanks!
03/26	Ab:  Just love this short term memory of mine.  I'm currently working on a Ford F-8000 with a Marmon Harrington factory 4wd conversion.  I need some misc. parts and most importantly is where can I contact Marmon Harrington for service manuals, etc.  can you help? rmmcgee@jps.net thanks again Ab. Mike:)
03/25	G'Day  Well, obviously i found your site, and it looks good. But i also need some help (If you can). Now i'm in Australia, a member of the New South Wales RFS(Volunteer). Basically what i'd like to know is this. do you guys get paid to do fire fighting as a full-time job, and if so, how would i go about getting into it if i wanted to come over to America for a season or two? Wellthanks for your time, and i hope to hear from you soon. Ben Barry
03/25	Dear Sirs! I liked Your site very much. I would like to ask You for permission to  install link to Your site via my own site .Fire Service in Republic of  Belarus. (http://www.armybook.com/fire/index.html). There is interesting information in English installed on my server. The information devoted to fire-fighting engines in Republic of Belarus, fire-fighting engine history  in Russia from the book .The Complete Story of Russian Fire Engines from  1700 to 2000. (in English and German) and can be useful for those who call  on your server. If You have nothing against installation in Your room the  communication that pointing to my server (HTML code is appended to the  letter) I would appreciate to You extremely. Allow me to express my  sincere gratitude for so necessary and useful server.  Yours faithfully Serg Berg belfire@armybook.com  http://www.armybook.com/fire/firebook.html Just call me Ab, Serg.  Drop the "Sirs" stuff or I'll start looking over my shoulder to see if there's a Colonel or General behind me.  Don't get too excited folks, the web site serves as a port for selling a book.  That's ok, I'm a capitalist too! Ab.
03/25	In response to the note from Hickman about folks getting too old for the line; but, still having valuable experience to assist the fire suppression organization.  This has been a problem within the FS since I got involved 30+ years ago.  One thing I tried to do was sit down once a year and counsel each person on the Zone (Two Ranger Districts).  I wanted to know their ultimate goal in fire suppression, and if we supported reaching their goal would they then make themselves available.  If their only interest was in Operations, they were then counseled to consider a secondary track besides Ops.  Some drug their feet and only wanted to do Ops and Ops only.  My usual approach at that point was to give them a scenario of:  What happens when you hit the big 50 and the old body starts protesting all the years of humping the hills or just plain gives out?  If you do not have a parallel training/qualifications track going, you can, and probably will get left in the dust.  Most managers and bean counters figure you don't have enough years left in the organization to warrant investing time and money in your training to bring you up to speed for quals in any area outside of Operations.  They probably have some other young person that they are grooming for that position that they are willing to put the money into knowing that in the long run they will get several years out of them vs. five more out of you. For those of you that are just starting or are relatively young I know it is hard to think of doing anything on a fire other than going up against the Dragon in hand to hand combat.  But; I can guarantee you that some day you will not be able to face the Dragon head to head, but still want to help kick his butt.  Get with your Fire Management people now and start that parallel fire career track!  You can still devote most of your time to Operations jobs; but when the body says enough is enough, you will have some qualifications to fall back on that will still keep you in the fire suppression business. A sidenote here:  You may be a well qualified Operations Stud/Studette that is a real go-getter, then sudenly out of nowhere you get smacked up alongside the head with a rare disease like I did and you are left out in the cold.  I figured I had alot of years left of doing the job I loved almost more than my family (My wife considered fighting fires to be an acceptable mistress!) and the next thing I knew I was out of fire suppression altogether and out of a job.  Enjoy every fire you go on as if it was your last, cuz it could be! For those of you that will be on the lines this year my heart and prayers are with you!  I follow the NIFC daily reports and you will have one person that will never second guess your decisions on a fire.  I read this from someone in "They Said" in a note from 3/25 and it is some of the best advice I heard in 30 years of fighting fire: "All these guys know that their fire shelter is not on their belt but between their ears."  A lot of wisdom in that statement!  Firehorse Thanks for the post Firehorse!  Most firefighters are aware of the risk from fires, but as you point out there are other situations life may bring to modify your dreams.  I'm personally glad you are watching the site and sharing your thoughts and experience with us.  Ab.
03/25	Supe's party was an eye opener to me and probably to many other younger LP guys.  We are lucky to have worked for Supe and Bone.  There aren't many other real "old school" guys left these days.  Most all of the guys that are lucky enough to get to work for these men know about paying their dues and learning from the best.  The ones who stick it out and stay on the crew long enough to get something out of it are quality young men.  They would be successful at whatever carrer path chosen.  All of these guys know that there fire shelter is not on there belt but between there ears.  Many have collage diplomas.  These young men are a great asset to the federal agencies and the fire fighting community in general.  Why do over half of them end up choosing another career despite there love of the fire line?  Lack of benefits?  Budget cuts?  Non-merit based promotion?  This problem is not central to the LP it happens everywhere.  There is a large population of people directly and indirectly involved with wildland firefighting in the United States that is silent.  Let someone know that you don't agree with agency policy.  Write your representative.  The knowledge men like Supe have shared need not be lost because of politics. Most Politicians have one goal, from Bill Clinton to some district, and most forest supervisors.  They want to stay in office.  If we can bring a powerful voice to the table in Washington, things will change.  Maybe we will not lose some of the quality people that have been lost in the past.  That knowlage can stay where it belongs......
03/25	Here is a little feed back on the packtest.  On our unit we tested 113 people, 111 of those passed.  Those are not bad odds.  We tested every size and shape of people there are.  The best part of the packtest is that it is up to the individual to do it.  Get in shape and be ready for it, it is as simple as that.  It is a much better test than stepping up and down on a box for 5 minutes, and letting some scale tell you if you are in shape or not.  I found that I could pass the step test with a higher score if I took the test on the mens box and mens scale than on the womans box and scale, what is up with that...... Yes is is more weight than you may have packed in your regular line gear, I think when I was on the shot crew the limit was 35 pounds, add a tool or bladder bag to that and there you go. Most of the dispatchers in our office take it so that they can participate in line activities either in the spring or fall.  This promotes them keeping their line quals up and getting them out to see different places on the district.  All in all I think it helps them do a better job. I know that the majority of folks on our unit believe that it is a much better test of endurance and strength than the step test ever was. Good Luck, dispatcher
03/25	Having been in the FS for almost 30 years, I am priveleged to have known and  worked for the Supe.  There's no other like him, and certainly no other that  has developed so many young "sports' " into the fine folks they are today. His party was fitting for the dedication he put into his career.  Klinger  from LACO who MCed the shindig had me pissing my pants I was laughing so hard! My thanks to Stan "the bone" Stewart, Tom "shorty" Clack, and last but not  least, "killer" Abu Bin Laden Duprey..They put together a hell of a good time  for us all! JW
03/25	Those "embarassing" BBQ aprons that I presented to Linane at his retirement  party are a great gift for someone who knows how to have fun, and is not  concerned with fitting into the Politically Correct world 24 hours a  day..Guaranteed you'll have a great time at anyone's BBQ with one of these  Gems!! Want one? Contact: jwa1057@aol
03/25	The BLM in Moab Utah is looking for qualified fire fighters for the 2000 season especially a qualified  engine operator or assistant foreman. If you are interested or know someone who is contact the department of work force services before the end of the month at 435-259-3700. Thanks, Terry Now here's a new type post for the page. . . an outreach announcement for employment.  Very creative Terry.  Ab.
03/25	capt. 73: I'm currently checking with a friend of mine who mfgs. cafs system to glean some more info for you.  I'll try to find the addy and get it back to you asap.  please email me at rmmcgee@jps.net  Mike
03/25	Where the FS is becoming short handed and then there are those which can not pass the pack test, but those individuals could be very valued assets to the fire service in other ways.  There are more levels to the pack test than the ARDUOUS.  These individual which can not pass that part should still be able to preform within other areas such as Safety or in Fire Behavior Areas or even be able to put their years of experiance and knowledge to use in the upper end, Staging, Office-type work with occasional field activity.  I agree that knowledge is very important on the line, but is it not just as important on the head end?  I am sure that a lot you these individuals are more than able to direct or lead others.  But they are unsure of their abilities.  I like many others would love to be a ground pounder as long as possible, but time is getting short for that.  Now is the time to start thinking about doing something else, like educating ourselves in (a real DURTY WORD)...MANAGEMENT... If you can survive in Management, then you can change things for the future. Change the things that needed changing in the past, keep you heads-up and improve the things that need improving.  If it takes going all the way to DC, then do it.  Just don't set out on your behinds and watch the world run off.  If you know of someone who can't make the grade as a firefighter, but they are a good leader, encourage them in moving up the ladder.  It sometime take an attitude adjustment to do what you want and if you can't adjust your own, then maybe it is time to get out. ..(as I climb down off the soapbox)..there's two cents you can take to the bank.. and I hope it earns interest for you.. Hickman
03/25	Note from Dana to Ab regarding responses to "HOLY COW" post on 3/23: Hey Ab, FYI I received 47 responses...most from firefighters...some from contractors...2 from Govt. employees. More today! The contractors seem to be networking well and are enthusiastic about the new resource from what I can see here. It appears that some NIFC folks would rather not have to dispatch "human" resources...would be happy with equipment only. Others in Govt. agencies (western) are happy that contractors will have access to resources from the Midwest...hope it will cut down on "predation" of "their resources". Am still waiting for final OK from MWFA working committee on registration forms and fees. Would you consider posting them on your site so they could be downloaded easily by firefolk? Currently I am emailing copies to individuals...but will be swamped if the volume keeps up. Am also considering web site of own but simply cannot devote the time right now. Thanks again for your help...this may be a big change in wildfire employment.  I personally hope that it will lead to the formation of a nationwide counterpart of the MWFA which will actually fight(as we do) for better working conditions, better pay, higher safety standards, and real benefits for wildfire fighters. In just the few years that we have been in existence we have increased the actual value of "firepay" by nearly 30% in MN. We have had to initiate lawsuits(several against the state and one against the Forest Service) and lobby hard to get the results...but we got result in a relatively short period of time and our membership has grown exponentially as our smokechasers realized that their support increased our clout and more clout meant better working conditions for them. Edit and include this in "they said if you wish. Dana Linscott Vice chair MWFA Dana, when you are ready for links to the ap's, just let me know.  Ab.
03/25	Hi All-- Just got back from a day in Sacramento at the California Interagency Incident Management Team meeting. Hellitorch, Sthil, San Bernardino Honor Guard, I thought of all of you when I heard there was an Honor Guard event. I missed the bagpipes. I was hoping someone took it in! Thanks Helli for reporting! Man, I'm bummed I didn't get to meet you! Next time carry a drip torch or some larger identifying object! I often carry a notebook. Drives those who are paranoid CRAZY! My invite was from R5 and my visit was brief. (I only got permission for one day away from FF1. My CDF instructor is just RELENTLESS!) I hustled down late Tues. and mostly heard the afternoon presentations Wed., including Quintanar's one-crutch classic! Nice talk, funny! Ray sounded like a strident cross between the Preacher and the Law. He went off on computerized timekeeping on incidents (barcodes on redcards, no less!), WFSA projections and fire perimeters, ICTs needing to understand local agreements with soverign entities (Indians), the murder of Dick Blood, problems with unclear IAPs, the "need to follow rules we've set each and every time, no exceptions" in terms of zero tolerance, AD crews, etc and <catch of breath> demonstrated correct and incorrect ways to conduct a briefing! Anyone want more on any of these topics and we'll try to get a thread going... Ray also mentioned the 14 vs 21 day assignments. It was discussed in a meeting in depth before I arrived. Can anyone shed some light on that? If not, I'll give him a call, clarify and report back. Sounds like there's more latitude than first thought...  The other interesting presentation IMO was an overview of proposed California IC Certification System that will bring all agencies involved in ICT-level fire into the same system (NWCG 310-1) with course work, PTBs and peer review. (Remember, one of the first questions I asked theysaid last Nov related to discrepancies in training. Felt like deja vu.) The board addressing this includes California fire chiefs, OES rep, USFS, state Fire Marshall, and 3 other organizations. With CDF and greater city fire services involvement along with USFS, standerdization of the training (OJT) portion is necessary--but I don't think there was a CDF rep. (At the level below the ICT, we need to have the same standards/requirements for contractors and AD crew members as for other groundpounders, etc. Contractors may be working on this. What about AD crews??? Comments to the effect that these crews have seriously declined in quality of late especially as a fire has dragged on as the BigBar did.)  Had dinner with Team 5, Dale Dague's team. FYI, I've heard that Dale has a birthday complete with embarrassing "song" every team event! What a hoot! Of course, the logistics person (Carl R.) had to do dinner logistics at first, but that was taken over by the info person (Dave F.) who had all the answers, the big smile and the camera. The finance person had to get the bill, collect the money and come up with a payment plan. As a dedicated Federal economist, when there seemed to be a financial shortfall, she demanded to know who had ordered the dip for the bread sticks (no one had) and wanted that charge stricken! Turned out there was more money greenbacking in and all worked out... Great fun-- great team SPIRIT! (and to the team 5 guy I talked to after dinner who said that theysaid is like family, I agree <ohsohappy grin>) Thanks to L.L. who let me coyote at his place in Upper Lake, to Brian who invited me to dinner, to RQ for inviting me, to Hutch for the hug, and to others...  To firedoc, I don't feel comfortable answering that question on the internet--   Mellie
03/25	TO cs.o. AND bs AND ab AND firechick AND FireBooger AND mtwo AND Eric AND Tony AND everyone else on the pack test stuff: jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeminy christmas already on the development and applicability of the pack test compared to step test and so on and so on ad nauseum. I've been meaning to put this online in html for a loooooooong time and still haven't got to it. I swear I'll do it soon, okay?????? IN THE MEANTIME, though, here ya go, in (ack) pdf format, the goods on the pack test and its development and testing and testing administration: http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/firefree.html Pay attention to the directions and click on the "pack test" link.  NOTE that this was written over a year ago. Keep that in mind as you read it! I plan to update it and put a fresh version online soon -- including addressing the questions about "what about the firedogs who flunk" and other current questions and issues. For now, though, please SHUT UP about how it is or is not relevant to the real world on the fireline!! At least until you know how and why it was developed! <end of tirade> thank you. Kelly Andersson. <=and no I am not Mellie.
03/24	Everyone,      I am looking for a copy of the old Water Handling guide that was published back in 1983 and reprinted in 1987 or 1988. This book has a white cover with either red or blue lettering, and contains specific information regarding wildland fire engines, and specific equipment related to wildland firefighting. If you have a copy please post your e-mail so I can contact you. I need it for a research project, but no one I know from fire management can locate the book or something similar.       To the person who has passed on the subject regarding the problems our brother and sister wildland firefighters from Minesota are having getting longer employment, out of state fire assignments, and better pay and benifits, out of curiosity have you appoached your Governor, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, been notified about it and if so what has his response been? Seeing how he was elected on being against stuff like this, I am curious as to what he said about it.       As to the Great Contractor Debate, I want to put my two cents in. I have worked with and know many people in the contracting business in Region 5. Some have outstanding equipment, some older but well functioning equipment, and some bad looking equipment but it does the job. All of the contractors I have met are professional, consistant in the perfomance of their assignments, and do not try to do a half-ass job. There is a place for contractors in the wildland fire community in the initial attack, support, mop-up, and prescribed burning operations that we have going on all over the western USA. But contractors are not, and should not be a replacement for the paid, permanent government firefighting staff. We have all read in this month's "They Said" the different opinions on contractors with their positive and negative asspects. If you have surfed the Internet and have seen just how many contractors are out there, the level of professionalism that many of them maintain in their training, personnel, and equipment there is going to always be a place for them.        They realise that much of what the contract out for is fire suppression, either IA or mop-up, and that there are good years and bad. 1997 and 1998 almost put many contractors out of business, and in Oregon I understand as many as ten contractors folded or closed up because of the lack of fires and project work. I have heard all this about supporting the contractors and bidding out RX burns, establishing standby and training fees, use of contractors on first and second alarm responses, and using them on out-of-area campaign fires. I have also heard back and forth that the forests and land agencies support such a plan, but when it comes down to it nothing happens with these proposals. These people want to work, not just collect a paycheck for existing. Many contractors try to hustle the work in proposing RX burns, fuel management, private urban interface protection, and have expanded to providing training courses, hazard reduction, disaster management and other non-fire operations.        But contractors are not, and should not be a replacement for a government fire agency. If the forests continue to use contractors for fire suppression they need to support them by following through on agreements made for levels of work. The attitude of "We know you want to go to a fire, but we need you here incase we break a fire, so we're not going to release you to other fires and keep you here. But unfortunately we can't pay you until we have a fire and we send you to it." does not pay the bills or feed the family. There has been too much corruption in the past by contracting out tasks without some king of government oversite and a government type of crew to compare it to. If we keep contractors, then they need to be treated equally as far as assignments by ALL agencies, no favorites, no special uses, no "hiding resources" for a fire that has yet to exist. Contractors also need to understand that just because you get on the list does not mean that you will go to a fire (like the right to own and bear arms), that this is ON-CALL. If you wanted the 40-week Forest Firefighter Job then you should apply for it. Contractor also need to be honest with there employees about the number of times they may go out, keeping them informed of the status of there company like where they are on the response lists, being honest about projected work assignments, and letting them know if problems occur that can affect future fire assignments.       One thing that affects all of us, public or private, is the use of the military on fires. National Guard helicopters and air tankers are not supposed to be used unless almost all air resource, which are predominately privatized, have been committed to all fires and the maximum drawdown limit has occured. Military personnel are not supposed to be used unless ALL public and private resources have reached maximum drawdown. Yet on very large scale fires this happens regularly.  You may think its not so, but think back to where you were during the Siege of '87, Yellowstone '88, or the other big fire years. I can name MANY goverment IA crews, AD crews, possible put-together crews, engine crews, and others who were not there but were available to go. The forests, contractors, and the Wildland Firefighter Union need to come together and get a solid, binding agreement with management regarding the use of military soldiers to act as firefighters, either IA or Type2. Use up EVERY GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE CONTRACT FIRE CREW BEFORE CALLING THE MILITARY FOR ADDITIONAL MANPOWER. When these people come in they have to go through the Basic 32-hour  Academy (s-110,130, and 190) which means that the crews on the resource list who are READY TO GO are not being used. Decide which way to go, and stick with it.       On the pay issue, I keep hearing how so many of the overhead want a simpler pay scale for wildland firefighters so they get fair, comparable wages, but management (or a single bean counter trying to make a name for themselves) continue to water it down so they don't have to pay a fair wage. So let me put this suggestion out: * Move the 0462, 0455, 0303, and other wildland fire catagories out of the Technician Series and make them Firefighters in the 0081 series. * 24 hour staffing may not be feasible in all locations, so continue with the 40-hour except where urban interface is commonplace. * Stop being "wildland" organizations and move into the "all-risk" responsibilities like responding to medicals, traffic accedents, haz-mats, rescues, ect., on a seasonal schedule, rather than a year-round operation. More and more agencies have expanded there operations and responsibilities to be more competitive, productive, and harder to cut. * When going to campaign fires, move to a Portal-to-Portal 24-hour pay scale where your paid from the time you leave home until the time you get back. Do not use a flat rate, but rather continue on the 40-hour schedule with overtime after 8 standard hours per day, but do away with hazard pay, night differential, Sunday differential, and all those little incremental payments as a trade off. Lay down the law that you are on call 24 hours a day, no excuses. Which mean no bar hopping, no alcohol, no shenanagans, and no bad behavior like have occured on long assignments which blacken a crew's record and agency's reputations. We are professionals and we should be paid, treated, and act like professionals.  * Those personnel who are at the GS-10 and above levels need to have the overtime cap removed so they to can be fairly paid for there efforts.  * Government employees who are not Primary Fire but have signed up for it should receive the same pay mentioned above under the same curcomstance, however, all Primary Fire employees need to be utilized before calling out secondary fire crews. Too many time in the past fire management personnel have be available for assignments but employees who work outside fire get called before they do. This has to come to an end.      Along with this forests and districts have played the game with Region as to resource availability as to "they are not avaialble" to go out of region. When you are called, you go. When single resources are called, that forest needs to send them and GIVE THAT EMPLOYEE TIME TO CATCH UP WITH THEIR OTHER DUTIES!!! No more "you can go to the fire for 21-days, but your project due dates are still the same. That is B.S.!!! You get called to the fire, then give the employee the time to catch up. Boy, its easy ot get side tracked when your on a roll. Finally, everyone needs to get involved, from the 35 year veteran to the first-season firefighter, in what goes on in there district and forest fire management programs. Work together to meet the goals. Know what's going on, keep informed. Share the wealth and don't play politics.  MOC4546
03/23	Has anyone had any experience with the Econo-CAFs system from CFX in El Segundo?  According to the manufacturer, it will pump 100 gpm of water, compress air, and inject foam with one small Honda engine to give CAFs, water, or Class A foam, all in one unit.  It uses a 12 cylinder rotary design to do all this with one 6 HP gas engine or potentially a 24 volt motor.  Has anyone used one of these or its bigger brother?  We are trying to see if it makes sense for us to get one of these. "Captain 73" Don Stevens Poulsbo Fire Department Kitsap Wildland Team
03/23	HOLY COW! There must be an awful lot of lurkers out there...my last posting resulted in A LOT of responses...I just spent the morning trying to respond to them all...ended up sending a "kind of form letter" saying please be patient. All "work wanted" emails will get this "form response" and regular updates unless they really request specific information not supplied in the form response. Please,for now at least, keep your emails brief. I have all I can do getting the AAL up and running. I try to read every email I receive...but don't be discouraged if it takes a few days to respond.All potential employers will have their email addresses placed in our mass email program and will receive a test letter next week. Thanks for your understanding. Dana Linscott Vice Chair MWFA (MN Wildland Firefighters' Association) linscott@rea-alp.com
03/23	not being in the wildland firefighting experience very long it just seems to me that the pack test is more job specific than the step test. how many times have you gone to a fire and repeatedly stepped up and down in place. pack test is an overall test physically and mentally. i would rather be on a crew with members that did the pack test. it doesn't discriminate, if it's in your heart to fight fire, then train for it. cs.o. pa.
03/23	"Boo"   I must commend you on your work regarding the TX Wildland Firefighter patch logo.  It's a very unique design.  I combed the volumes of message boards and was fortunate enough to locate 1 single patch; however, I paid (traded) dearly for it!  Thanks for your input! Tate
03/22	AB: if I was a contractor I think I would find me a Indian rez that has a killer fire and RX program and buddy up. lots of $$$ in the interior dept.        mp
03/22	Ab just curious what is going to happen to those individuals that can not pass the pack test that have been in fire for many years and are permanents. I know there are individuals in the FS that have peaked my curiosity at how they could have passed the step test let alone the pack test.  Are we going to fire them if fire is their primary job and they can not pass this test. I'm waiting to see how many grievances and lawsuits come out of this. BS I've heard several statements/opinions regarding the consequences of the failure of folks being unable to pass, but haven't seen much quotable in writing.  Theory might be that they would be classified as "physically unable to perform" and thereby forced from their positions.  We'll just have to wait and see the actual results.  I kinda think the ones who want to and are still physically capable, will pass and others may be transferred or placed in some kind of "sunset" position. Before we get too wasteful though, let's remember many of those who are currently unable to pass may be victims of prior fire injuries.  For those  unaware, fires can be extremely hazardous and wearing to several parts on a persons body and they add up over time.  Although these people can still pass a five minute step test, their knees, ankles, or backs may not support them in the new test. At some point in time, after receiving their injuries, these firefighters made a decision to keep fighting fires, safe in the belief they were and would continue to be able to pass the existing physical requirements.  Would it be fair to those who fall in this category to merely fire them?  Some of these employees have over 20 years of excellent service and fire experience behind them.  Do we want to toss these veterans who have sacrificed so much on a shit pile just because they may not be the first one's up the hill?  I don't think so.  Ab
03/22	Last month I emailed a "contribution" to "they said" about a project by the Minnesota Wildland Firefighters Association which will establish an Alternative Availability List for wildland firefighters. This was in an effort to combat the practice of "sandbagging" our members (withholding their names from the national availability list without their knowledge in order to keep them around in case they are needed locally). I included my email address for those wishing to respond, linscott@rea-alp.com and I had quite a few responses, most of which were enthusiastic about the concept.  Some were individuals wondering if they could participate as a "listee", potential employees, looking for a way to make a better living as a firefighter by either working for independent contractors, or at least working more during the fire season.  Quite a few stated that MN was not the only state which engaged in the practice of sandbagging. Others were independent fire suppression contractors who were interested in the AAL as a simple way to find and contact experienced firefighters without drawing from the rolls of the areas and states for whom they depend upon for fire suppression contracts. The most suprising contacts were from the State forestry and fire suppression agencies which were interested in having access to all the resources they could muster...many of whom were caught short last year when the only resource they had was the NIFC maintained National Availability List.  Accordingly we are now incorporating provisions for two AAL's one which will go to private contractors...and one which will be available to Agencies of State and Federal Government.   I  believe that the service can be provided for a cost of $10 to $20 per season, per individual. At this time we intend to charge $10 to Minnesota Wildland Firefighters' Association  members and $20 to non members.  Since we have no provision prohibiting Non-Minnesotans from joining...and in fact have quite a few as members now from adjoining states which do not have an organization like ours to represent them...the actual minimum cost to be on the list is $15 for the first year. If my cost calculations are wrong...I have pledged to eat the overrun myself. This is not intended as a profit making venture, I have volunteered my time to develop and maintain the AAL for the first year...and in the unlikely event that there is a profit generated it will be donated to the MWFFA to support its' ongoing efforts at forming an actual prototypical  wildland firefighters union. The AAL will be emailed at no cost to subscribers for the first year...there may be a charge in the future, and of course if it proves to be a valuable resource such a charge would be justified...and could help keep the cost to individual "listees" to a minimum. You must have a current red card to become a "listee...contact me at linscott@rea-alp.com  for a registration form and further details. Please spread the word to fellow smokechasers and to potential employers...the more that participate the better the AAL will work. For further information contact me via the email address above. I hope you all have a safe and profitable season. Dana Linscott Vice-chair MWFFA
03/22	Hello all-- I've just been informed that Jim Furnish, Asst Chief of the Forest Service, will be here on our lovely campus for at least two days.  I hear he'll be speaking on careers and employment (as we know they can be two different things) with the Forest Service  and also on the direction of the FS.  I, personally, am loaded with questions for him and will be attending both events.  However, as always on this site, there are rumblings of issues that people are looking for answers to.  I definitely love to take the opportunity to put a little pressure on policy people whenever I can, so if y'all have a major issue you'd like me to try to ask about (that he might know about and be somewhat accountable for), feel free to pass it along (but very soon). Also to you FS types now taking the pack test... good luck.  And to dispatch dude:  thanks for the note about Interior folks taking it for 3 years now.  I've seen just a few people fail it, and they're the same people I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to work with.  Most park service folks have stopped whining, from what I've seen.  Also to dispatch dude--you said you heard of potential physicals for arduous work ratings. Who pays for these, and where do you get them taken?  Is this one more step to making the seasonal life even harder to coordinate?  Just wondering if anyone else has heard anything.... TO MTWO:  you sound like a person I used to know.  You're not from PA by chance, are you? One more question: I'm starting to work with the local types about coordinating some type of basic wildland training for volunteer departments and local conservation folks that is suited to the midwest, particularly the flatlands.  The basic S-130/S-190 training is more suited to working within the ICS (ie: what to take in your red pack, how to deal with fire camp, etc.) and in hilly country (emphasis on southern slope fuels being drier and hotter, box canyons, etc), so we're trying to find some sources for training that teach fire behaviour more for grasslands (and corn!) and firefighting using local-type resources (such as combines--thought you'd all get a smile out of that one...).  Anyway, no use re-inventing the wheel, so if anyone has any ideas or contacts, please let me know.  I think we're not the only midwesterners headed down this route either, so maybe if anyone's out there we could start something.  Who knows.... thanks all-- firechick  firewhirl22@hotmail.com
03/22	Smoaky----Best words of fire wisdom I've heard of in a very long time!!  warren EX ic EAICT
03/21	so who is the contracter that is not going to get the contract.. also the guy  in eastern wash  that stole all the gear . he took a medical retirement...he  needs to be in jail.. yes there is some junk out there but we as pvts need to  look over that and clean our own game up .. to eric i may not agree with you  some  times but i do respect you   ...firedoc
03/21	Ab, Contracted crews & equipment resources in R-6 are already contracted and administered at the regional level. But, they are ALWAYS dispatched at the local or zone level, just like national resources, IHC's, type II helo,s and IMT's.  Whats new in R-6 this year is that, contract crews will part of the mix of agency crews dispatched by the local host units. The dispatching all use to take place out of Salem (Oregon Dept Forestry),  now they are dispatched by local area units and will be considered part of the mix unless the RO comes across agency only. I have a hard copy of  "Policy Implications of Large Fire Management, A Strategic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs, USDA FS, Jan 21, 2000.".  I will lurk around to find the electronic version and post. As of Friday, March 17, pack test is still the test of record. Tony @ SBA,  You mean in 26 years working for the green machine, this is the first time you've been led around in circles? Hard to believe. Quit whining thou, Interior folks have been doing it for 3 years now. Rumor I hear, is that the test will be scrapped all together next year in favor of a SF-78 like form and doctors authorization for anyone at the arduous level. That would be great because the questionnaire puts us all in a weak  position acting like MD's anyway deciding if all should go to the doctors, stress EKG's and all that crap. Dispatch Dude
03/21	Kel,  I completely agree with you on the whole media thing concerning the  Forest Service.  I'd suggest the feds take a page from the state's book.  In  northern Cal. CDF are the media darlings. The public loves them for the most  part.  Their PR people understand that public perception translates into  public funding.      Most of the public has at best a vague notion of the  "Forestry Service"  and when they do think of  the Forest service they think of smokeJumpers in  Montana or some other far off place.     Mellie,  As far as the pack tests go,  sounds like it's purpose is to  discourage older people from qualifying for line duty.  This would make sense  since every agency goes through a changing of the guard every twenty years or  so. I'm sure most twentysomething newbies see fortysomething part timers as  obstacles in their careers.  I know that sounds harsh but were any of us any  different when we started out?                       ~FireBooger~
03/21	Tony, Tony, Tony....@SBA, did you just get back from Linanes party when you wrote your little, what was it....'Horse Lick?", about the pack test. Cause it sounded like maybe...you were alittle pumped up. I don't know, the scenerio, in my mind immediately went like this, what was it..Division, BC, Capt, FPT, HS and Heli sup's, Airbase Mgr. (?) and one militia, who? You all are (500 or so) back slapping happy at the party, couldn't  pick a better place to vent about this "ludicrous" test. I don't mean to be unfair, but I wouldn't compare the L.P. to many other forests and their fire shops. You have a hotshot crew and several helitak crews. Your overhead is younger, you've all been there "together" for a long time, and the good ole boy...thing has been alive and healthy, on at least the last district you worked...was and probaley still is one of competition, it is hard to be on a forest, much less district with a shot crew...and Not Be In Shape? You guys are animals...(that was a compliment) The LP, comes with visions of helicopters on every district, night flying ones, hot shot crews, helishot crews, 5-6 engines a district, more districts...yada,yada,yada. Well not now, but once, huh?    The Step Test sucked, it was so, primed for CD, and just because you could pass it, didn't mean you could do the 1 1/2 mile run. The run..... what happened with that? Was the run, EVER, totally the only test and mandatoy?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the pack test, suppose to simulate carrying hose packs or bladder bags, not only that, but it's suppose to put your whole entire body in check,  your upper body strenth,your legs your endurance level. Not just your Areobic capacity, as with the step test, doesn't mean you can hump a pulasky for long periods of time. You say that you never in your career, carried 45 lbs and walked really fast on level ground, EVER!!! (Well Dah!) But what about carrying 45lbs  really fast on non-level, up, down and steep ground, for any length of time?   What was very interesting to me, was admitting it got you in the knees? Now admit it, with all your years in fire...you've iced them knees up before, you simply got mad that you had to do it again...must be sitting alot in your present job? Was it because of those knees?  I'd say if the pack test is hard on your knees, at level ground, perhaps that in itself is something to worry about. ?    I heard this nasty rumor, that the LP was thinking about hiring more 13-13's, so they would get the 3 chances the permanent employees are getting with the pack test, (as opposed to the one chance the temps are getting) and have them on longer, so that they can stay in better shape?   I think it would be a good thing to 'administer a real pain in the neck', phsyical agility tests put on and done by the federal firefighters in other agencies...the GS-808 (I think, don't quote me on that series). Course until the Forest Service keeps calling their firefighters forestry tech, this pack test won't be the last silly test.   Their are alot of fire shops out there, in R5, that aren't as tight, committed or as competitive as yours. There is going to be fall out, those who haven't gotten with the program are going to feel it, this test will not be easy for someone who hasn't stayed fit, and for those people who don't work in fire, but are red carded, the numbers might dwindle some, along with the tighter red card rating policys, if you don't use your quals, you loose your quals. The avaliable resource list is going to get short.      So, lets get this right, your pack test proved to you, that you are extremely physically fit, ...except those dang knees, are all beat to shit over it.    Explain to me again, why this test is so ludicrous?  mtwo Without wanting to see much more on the pack test, I've also heard physically fit folks complain about knees and "shin splints".  Some young, some old.Ab.
03/21	To Keith, Cbork, MissSZQ, Stihl on the fence, "@" and last but not least - Mellie: I saw the Honor Guard presentation this morning at the California Interagency Incident Management Team meeting in Sacramento. The presentation was professional and NONDENOMINATIONAL. The Mann Gulch memorial presentation was very well done. See... we can all get along! HELLitorch
03/21	TOO MUCH SAFETY CAN KILL YOU   It is the 50the reunion of the Los Prietos Hot Shots, the first USFS shot  crew, formed in 1949.  It is spring, a beautiful day, a beautiful time, four  generations of firefighters have come to this once in a lifetime event.  Many  see people who worked with their fathers, their grandfathers. It is Region 5, but the people come from all over.  It is a microcosm of the  agency, other regions, the nation.  It is old home week for many veterans  that will never see each other again.  Others have the majority of their  careers ahead of them.  Perhaps there are five hundred attending. I am watching and listening and happy shaking hands, strong firm hands that  have held the tools of our trade for over a half century.  How many pulaski  strokes, how many miles with a drip torch?  I feel the strength, the  heartbeat, the common inseparable bond that makes us family.  I am a veteran.   I got in when you could still fight fire.  A long time ago.  I worked with  men who were, are, legends.  They were OK.  I am OK. I look, I see that in a few short years the legends will be gone.  We will lose them.  We have not replaced them.  We now have kids with twenty years  in.  Victims of the system.  Victims?  Yes, unfortunately, sadly, victims. Before the PC consent decree system took over in the 80's, you could fight  fire.  The system now teaches you the tactical deployment of fire shelters  that go to six hundred degrees while you're in it, teaches you to think that  you can survive in the fire storm you are caught in if only you remember all  the rules.  The system teaches you to operate until you drop of heat  exhaustion in one hundred degree weather with the double layers of an arctic  explorer, teaches you how not to take action if one of the thirty eight thousand things you are required to remember pops up, how all the grains of  sand in the desert must be in just the right place before you act. The system has designed grid lock and death on the fireline.  Why not put a  body bag in there too?  Rotting corpses are dangerous.  Bugs, disease,  unsanitary condition.  Maybe a bottle of disinfectant will help. Break a rule, go to jail.  Incident Management Teams disbanded if anything  happens on their watch.  Fry the little guy. Before, a long time ago, you were trained by your mentors to think  tactically.  Safety was taught as a tactic, not a value, not a set of rules,  not some abstraction of academic leaming.  Ten Standard Orders and go.  You  were taught to anticipate, you were shown how to use your logic, your god  given wits, your experience, the experience of others to create tactical  action based decisions.  Move.  Fast.  Slow.  Backwards, forwards, sideways,  up, down, all around, hold still, all in the same instant. Not today's trench warfare on the fireline.  Next wave!  Never go downhill.  Ask someone else what to do.  Wait for orders.  Get a weather report.  You  gonna bet your life on the weatherman?  How many millibars does it take to  cook you?  Ask the weatherman. I get a call now and then.  "Hey, Smoaky, we've got a job for you!" I think,  do you have a job for me, or do you mean you need some credibility to stamp on your screwed up plans and I'm it if I want to be a whore?  Or do you really  mean it?  If I say yes, will you listen, will you make changes accordingly,  will you activate the information into tactical action?  Will it make a  difference? Or will you use me as the token that you need, the right name there so that  you can proceed with your PC bullshit that doesn't work? "I don't know", I answer, "I'll get back to you." If you were serious, really serious, you would call me and my peers and tell  us that you were serious and that you really wanted to put out the fire, or  light the fire, or save the lives.  You would tell me that beheading the  victims of the system is not working, will never work, and will only lead to  an agency(ies) that can no longer fight fire.  You would tell me that you will listen and take note when you are told the things you don't want to hear  and the true things you don't want the public and the Congress to hear. It's a risk.  And boy, we cannot take a risk because we want zero risk  firefighting and fire lighting and zero risk promotions and don't make waves.   Risk nothing and you will get exactly what you ordered: ZERO.  And it'll cost lives and a million dollars an acre. But now you know, we know, you've seen the light, you know you need to do  something in this moment of opportunity that will soon pass.  You need to  capture the expertise, the ancient wisdom that can make a difference. We can help change the damage done in the last twenty years, a generation or  two of victimized firefighters who were never passed the torch as the torch was passed to us.  The victims need help.  How many more fatal fire seasons  do we have to have? Just remember, some of us do not have many fire seasons left. Smoaky
03/21	Tate, Sorry pal I think your out of luck on finding a Texas Wildland Firefighter patch. That was a patch that I designed to give to volunteer fire fighters that completed the TFS basic wildland course. When I turned over the training program to someone else two years ago they decided to discontinue the patch. If you find one hang on to it there were only about a couple of  thousand made. In fact I don't even have one anymore. "Boo"
03/19	hey AB,   Was wondering if anyones read any reliable predictions for the 00' season.  Its probably kinda early who knows. Dispatch Dude,   your right, I was refering to the Engine/ tender agreements.  NOT the EERA. AAs for issuing a notional contract,   I am all for it,  would streamline the interregion, dispatch process.  Unfortunately i have heard rumors of this every year since i started. My thoughts are with our fallen Brother in SD Heard the "Pack Test" was suspended?  any truth to this rumor? Anyone know what happened to the VFD chief in North Central WA that was caught after pillfering tons of FS gear at wildfires over the last 5-10 years?  Heard it took a couple U-Haul rigs to confiscate the gear? After reading responses to the Contractor debate I see no sense in arguing, everyone that replys here is informedand knows that there is  good, and marginal equipment out there.  Just like in every agency. I consider myself to be one of the good guys,  so im happy with that.  One last note,  If there is crappy equipment on a fire i consider it the agencies fault.  Regardless of who holds the pink slip.   Reason?  The hosting agency is the final word.  I know for a fact that every piece of equipment going to the line is inspected at the scene.   JUNK is obvious. All the Equipment specialist has to say  is NO.   It might b a hard thing to say but more than feeling uncomfortable is on the line   If it is unsafe send it home.  If it is Marginal send it home. And there are associations that foster the kind of self regulation that was mentioned in the THEY SAID pages.  I belong to the WCFA  Washington Contract Firefighting Association, and the NWSA  National Wildfire Suppression Association.        Theres not much more i can say bout that. And to the emailer that wishes to remain anonymous thank you for the compliment. The R6 contract administrator knows about the contractor you mentioned to me.  They will no longer be eligible for a contract.  See folks the system works.   Later all Eric Pacificwildfire.com 253 460 7323 Eric, in my world, the next fire season is always going to be the best and hottest ever!  Ab.
03/19	While on an engine strike team in Tx in 99 there were a mixed bag of TFS, NPS,USFS,other state and contract engines. I am USFS employed but, was not on one of their engines. Contract engines did not have all the bells and whistles of the gov engines but were quite capable along with their crews. Same for all there except one. The sorriest of the bunch was an engine crew from r8. Nothing wrong with their rig, just themselves. All others worked as if they had trained together but there was one bad egg.  It's not always the contract guys and gals that are the problem. adftr
03/19	We missed those of you who didn't make it to the 50 th year Hot Shot reunion at Oak Grove Park just north of Ventura. Mark Linane's retirement shindig was the best thing we've EVER seen. The rank and file firefighters were showing up by the hundreds. 500 attended.  Everyone met many old friends again.  They came from all over the country-- Montana, Arizona, Hawaii, Idaho, California, Michigan, etc. Mark spent 28 years as the Superintendent of the Los Prietos Hot Shots.  That's the record-holder for time as a Supe. There were some great stories told. A BBQ apron given by JW Allendorf to Mark was a shocker. Mark even turned red.   We should have more events like this to honor our own and share with each other.   Old Hot Shot
03/19	I have been in the fire game for 17 years and had good and bad goings with  pvt contracters, mostly good .. we all in firefighting do the same job and it makes no diff if you are a govt firefighter or a pvt firefighter ..there are  good ones and bad ones.  Well I hope this year as a new pvt I can do a great job at it  and come home safe. To me it is not the money but it is a life style...stay  safe one and all .. and to mellie  are you single ...FIREDOC
03/19	"6" Thanks for keeping me honest.  A little clarification on your points:     1.  For the first 8 hours, the wages of a crewperson on an AD crew and a contract crew are about the same.  After 8 hours, the contractor is required to pay time and a half.  So you may have a point that after 8 hours, AD's may be a better value.  But once again, with AD's you need to add the cost of out-fitting and also the cost of their transportation.  (The contracted bus that stays with the crew.)     2.  The quality control problem, hopefully, will be solved by better sign-up inspections, honest performance evaluations and the contract inspectors.  As far as hidden cost of administering contracts, most of the contracting officers I have worked with find it a lot easier and quicker to administer contractor invoices rather than dealing with AD's time keeping. (A contract crew submits a single invoice for man-hours per shift while an AD crew submits a crew time report that needs to be transferred to up to 21 fire time reports.  Also with the AD's  there ususally is an equipment time report for saws and perhaps one for the transportation.)  I've spent time with the "time unit" with both cases and the contractor route is by far cleaner, faster and a lot less frustrating.     3.  The medical cost I was referring to were off-site medical bill, such as doctor visits.  Currently, most incidental medical supplies or services (aspirin, chap stick, band-aids and simple exams) are not charged to the contractor, the same as with AD's.  However, any doctor visit and/or services is paid by the contractor or their workman's comp, not charged to a fire management code.  AD's are covered by the fire management code.     4.  You are correct, and I apologize for implying that AD's are covered by unemployment insurance.  They are not. Dispatch Dude,     Yes, contractors have cost the entire year, fire or not.  But, even in a slow fire season, there is plenty of work both with private industry and with government contracts.  An a matter of fact, working on government non-fire contracts pays the crewperson a higher wage than working on fires, thanks to the Davis-Bacon Act.  (I could never understand why the govenment requires contractors to pay their employees more to do a task that they required their own FS regular employees to do!)     Finally, I must agree with you, AD's cost almost nothing when not in use. STU
03/18	Ya'll-- I am still recharging batteries here (and doing a bunch of performance requirements and hanging with my gang), but I'll help with the public and making the issues public. No one has a gag order on me...nor can I yet be threatened with the loss of my job. We do need the media behind us and I have some ideas on that. The USFS would be well advised to launch a media campaign ASAP.  <little madonna smile> Kel-- Many others have the same concerns as Tony. While in AZ, I spent time with some really buffed-out, in shape fire women who are in their 30's and early 40's and thought nothing of running 10 miles before dinner. They also had good upper body strength. But they're concerned about knees and backs and the pack test... Just thought you should know. None of them are ground pounders any longer, but they want to keep up their certs in case they need to fill in on an engine sometime. They come from one of the real fire-going forests down there where a large proportion of people are encouraged to be ready for fire and participate... Mellie
03/18	Hello, my name is Jerry Vohn.I am lurker in Phoenix .During the mid 70's I was a tto on the Coconino, I worked on the Blue Ridge district .Among my friends and coworkers were Bill Krushak and Buck Wickham .Around 1980 I became uninvolved with fire ,then in 94 I met up with a contractor and began operating a potable water tender out of Phx. Now I am a fire camp slug every chanch I get.I re ally enjoy providing water resorces and helping any way I can  .The oppertunity to get into the fire life is  something I look forward to every season.I have not been to a firecamp without meeting up with someone I have known in the past.I hope to see some of you this season. Very refreshing Jerry, or is your name really "spaghetti"?  Just kidding.  Ab.
03/18	TO DISPATCH DUDE: You mentioned contractors' costs during a slow season - insurance, vehicles, training, etc. Have you looked lately at the plans for fuels treatments and RxFire on federal lands? The work that needs doing plus the budget we have for it minus the BD crews that we don't have any more should equal some contractor work. TO CANNELLONI: Dead right on. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too often the public and the media are left out of the plan. Any successful campaign must include both! It's a lot of what's been missing in marketing the fire program! Some of the USFS F&AM folks found out last year just how this can work; the media are not always the enemy. Or enema.  FOR AB: Whoa, I guess HB pushed a button there, eh? heh heh. I agree with you, though, on the MEL topic -- some clear answer/explanation from the USFS/Chief/WO is in order here! Regarding IA as insurance, that's great, but the public and Congress aren't likely to sit still for several million dollars worth of IA sitting around or mowing the grass during a slow season. What else could they be doing though? Looked around in the woods lately? Trails, fuels, campgrounds, fire prevention work, yeah that's seen by some as grunt work, but it beats no work.  What Lundgren said -- about the difference between the amount of MEL Congress delivers, the amount requested, and the resulting potential loss of property/resources -- is the sort of information that the public would go loopy over if they understood it. That's where it becomes critical to bring in the fieldfolks, the public, and the media.  And finally, on the pack test, TO TONY: Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez, dude, try reading a thing or two and learning a bit about what's going on before you run off at the mouth like that! kelly. I did mention there's plenty of work for the IA crews, including helping clean up some of that accumulated forest litter (you know, that litter which has grown to outrageous proportions due to 100 years of FS mismanag. . . yada, yada, yada, & more b.s.).  However, it's now becoming politically incorrect to take those job opportunities away from public contractors who have the capabilities and desire to perform them.  And you certainly aren't suggesting the FS resume maintenance of public campgrounds after they've been contracted out to concessionares for many years now, are you?  I personally think the tax paying public would be perfectly happy to pay the "insurance" bill.  I admit there may be some who would rather pay hundreds of millions to have a sattelite vaporize prior to completing it's mission due to a fifth grade arithmetic error between the vendor and gov't scientists, but not many.  How'za about somebody ask the voters what they want!  Ab.
03/18	Hi everybody! my name is hughe im working on forest fire in quebec since 5 years and i'll be glad to had a correspondance with other firefighters in canada or somewhwere else so my e-mail is: Hotmail: hug_gergeron@hotmail.com
03/17	Here are some more details about the firefighter from Delmont, SD, who died Thursday from burns he suffered on a wildfire near his home town on March 7. The funeral will be at the American Legion hall on Main Street in Delmont, SD, on Monday, March 20, at 10:30 am CT.  I hope we have a lot of firefighters there paying their respects. Engine Dude ================================= Firefighter dies from burns By DENISE D. TUCKER Argus Leader published: 3/17/00 A volunteer firefighter died Thursday, 10 days after he was severely burned in a wind-whipped prairie fire near Delmont. Robert Buhler, 62, suffered second- and third-degree burns over 60 percent to 80 percent of his body. The nine-year veteran of the Delmont Volunteer Fire Department was being treated at the Avera McKennan Hospital Burn Unit in Sioux Falls. The wind was blowing nearly 40 mph March 6 when a controlled burn about four miles south of Delmont got out of control. The fire found fuel in the dry grass and brush of a ravine. Buhler was on the hill, near the firetruck, said Delmont Fire Chief Kevin Hanten. "The fire flashed up the hill," said Hanten. "He couldn't get out of there fast enough." Volunteer firefighter Robert Kurtz was near Buhler when flames roared up. Kurtz was wearing protective gear and received minor neck and facial burns from the flashover. Buhler was not.   "He was visiting in another town and didn't have time to go back and get his stuff," Kurtz said. "He knew we were really short-handed and that we needed help. He's a hero." Two men from Delmont have been charged with misdemeanors in connection with the blaze. On March 8, Douglas County State's Attorney Brad Kerner filed a misdemeanor charge against Doug and Delbert Bitterman for burning land without a firebreak. They could get up to a year in the county jail and a $1,000 fine if convicted. Kerner could not be reached for comment to see if there would be additional charges filed in the wake of Buhler's death. The fire marshal's office and the state Division of Forestry are still looking into the circumstances surrounding the fire. South Dakota Fire Marshal Dan Carslon said the last firefighter to die in the line of duty was Donny Marso in 1977. Marso was helping to fight a fire outside of Pierre, when the truck he was in rolled and killed him. Carlson said about 30 to 40 firefighters have been killed since the early 1900s. Hanten said Buhler was a semi-retired bachelor who also served as the department's secretary. "He was kind of a quiet guy, not real outgoing. But, he would do anything for you if you asked him," Hanten said. Buhler was known throughout town for his quiet nature and helping hand. He was dedicated to his community and a member of the Development Corporation and Community Club. "He was really, really easy going," Kurtz said. "He kept a lot to himself. He didn't smoke and didn't drink. He was more of a home person. He took care of his folks until they passed away."
03/17	Mutual Aid is a Good subject.  In the 70's and in to the late 80's when we rolled on a wild fire (we are a Rural Fire District) on goverment land, we would work until the BLM got there and then we were treated like the bastard calf.    They would release us as soon as possible. They didn't want us any where around their fire.    No contact no training was the rule of order.  Then in the late 80's when the Loman Fire and Yellowstone Fire took place things started to change.  The BLM and FS came to us and neighboring units and asked us to be more involved.  They offered training and train the trainer type training for all units in Southern Idaho.    Now when thing go to heck they call and say "When can you get there?"    We have an excellent relationship with the BLM now and look forward to working with them.  The almighty dollar I believe has spoken here.  For which we are grateful. Slim
03/17	Eric, EERA's for equipment in R-6 have NO standards, NO pre-inspections, performance or inventories to meet. The only exception may be on the Wenachee or Okanogan, I've heard. Perhaps you are referring to the R-6 Engine & Tender Contract in which case you are correct on all points. I won't get into the VFD's, or Rural debate, heck we have really good relationships with ours. Can't speak for everywhere. Ab, Privatization of the fire environment is here all right. No argument from me. Is it appropriate, perhaps, is it always cost effective, doubtful. Heck for that matter is the whole business, cost effective, not the way funding is strained thru the Federal budget process. National Pre-payed programs, like SRV, Alaska FF, Montana FF, all should be maximized since there are already paid for. Yep there will always be exceptions, but they should be just that. I've been around the block for a day or two and seen the changes in the wind. Stu, So you want me to shed some tears? I should have turned up the volume so I could hear the violins playing. The fire economics eventually adds in costs even you didn't mention, (nice overview thou), how about the added costs of a weak fire season, lots of wet storms, no business. Still have to pay all that stuff right? Insurance, vehicles, tools equipment, training, those costs get added on too. Now we have to pay for slow season expenses, when the AD clan doesnt add much to the pre-pay. Alright, if all hell is breaking out, contract equip is gonna play, ( we sent ours to FL 2 years ago), they get a good workout. Just don't make me cry myself to sleep. Happy Irish.  Dispatch Dude.
03/17	DISPATCH DUDE said contractors in R6 operate on a regionally issued contract for engs/tenders, and they have to pass inspections, show training and quals. But DD says that ain't enough. Well, rumor has it that NATIONAL contract quals are in the works, and would be administered regionally. Sounds like a step in the right direction. DISPATCH DUDE also mentioned the "Policy Implications of Large Fire Management, A Strategic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs, USDA FS, Jan 21, 2000." Well if it's been out since Jan 21, then where is it? What's the big secret?  |===|===|===|===|===|  "just wondering" in R6  |===|===|===|===|===| I also heard the rumor which was allegedly stated by a NIFC level contracting officer.  To clarify a bit, private contractors including engines and handcrews will be administrated and dispatched at the Regional level, similar to other current national resources like shower units, caterers, helicopters.  Time frame?  Uncertain, probably not this year.  Ab.
03/17	In response to a couple comments from Lasagna:       > >  It takes leadership (not managers) and a willingness to listen       > >  to the issues to institute change and reverse the downward trend       > >  that has been clearly evident these past few years.  THERE IS INDEED a big gap between leaders and managers. Part of what makes a leader is the willingness (and ability) to listen. Listen to whom? To what? Who did the best military leaders listen to? Their infantry? Their politicos? Their intel and line scouts? Their own hearts? Maybe all of the above? A good leader has the wholehearted support and loyalty of the people in the field. Another thing that makes a leader is the ABILITY to institute change. That requires not only knowledge and skill but also the courage of one's convictions, the willingness to do battle -- call it cajones.  And the "trend that's been clearly evident these past few years" ????  The issues we're kicking around today are in many ways the same damn issues we were facing 40 years ago. Check here:  www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/1957   Sometimes you have to look back quite a few years to see how much things change -- and much they don't change.     > >  A fundamental reform of the system is needed to retain      > >  existing teams and recruit new talent to staff additional      > >  teams.  These reforms need to be made and supported at the highest     > >  level of the agencies and backed with sufficient funding  Fundamental reform is indeed necessary, and yes it must be supported at the highest level, with adequate funding. But it's also critical that any such change is understood by and supported by THE FOLKS IN THE FIELD, or it just won't fly. In looking at how fire is funded, one must consider that Congress does not just hand over big truckloads of money and tell the fire agencies "Here ya go, spend it any way you want." The USFS and the BLM can't just go to Congress and explain the facts of life -- that's called lobbying and it's a no-no. The USFS and other agencies *also* can't just go to the media and tell THEM the facts of life, because they often get *spanked* by their bosses for it. (Ask around and see if you can find anyone in fire right now who's operating under a gag order.) The key to making the changes that need to be made is GOOD STRATEGY. Maybe there is one. But if it's truly good, it's got to include the groundpounders on the ground, the flyboys in the air, the non-fire segments of the natural resource agencies, AND the public, AND the media. Without ALL of that in place, there will be no meaningful fundamental reform that succeeds.  ~~ Cannelloni
03/17	On the discussion about the Jacobs report -- one of the critical points in the discussion is that MEL is for initial attack. The support problems are with large fires that escape initial attack, along with associated problems of non-fire-appropriated people, type II personnel, and -- maybe most important -- WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD OF 100 PERCENT MEL FUNDING???? ... pick a probability between zero and negative two ?? Other important issues (e.g. line officer relationships) will *not* be solved by funding changes. The FMOs need to do a better job of staying at home and supporting the LMP and the LO. Of course there is a lot of second-guessing and yeah-butts in the Jacobs report. (But that's to be expected. No surprises there.) BUT WE NEED TO MOVE ON FROM HERE WITH THE DISCUSSION. If we don't like the answer, that's a different issue. Also, it's worth noting that the fire management folks in Washington DO ASK FOR 100 percent of MEL (since at least 1986) -- and routinely get turned down. HB Interesting, but confusing use of terms here HB.  You state "the fire management folks in Washington" have been asking for 100% of MEL and are turned down.  In March of '99,  this is just last year, immediately after the budget was announced, Chief of the FS, Mike Dombeck appeared before a House Subcommittee on Appropritations wherein he was addressed by the Chairman as follows.  "The service you provide for wildfire prevention and suppression is tops and is something that America still relies on you for. Yet, your request for wildfire preparedness is down to 67% of the most efficient level. Your sister agencies at the Department of the Interior have requested funding to support 85% of the most efficient level: why is your budget lagging so far behind?" Perhaps HB, you may be able to clear a few things up here.  Who are the "fire management folks" you speak of?   Who is turning down their requests for 100% of MEL?  And why does it appear, according to the above excerpt, which can be read in it's entirety here, the Chief is only asking Congress for 67% of MEL?  Is the Chief or other intermediates arbitrarily reducing the amount of MEL the Forest Service officially requests?  There appears to be something amiss. A recent NARTC attendee confides that Stewart Lundgren, Fire Operations Specialist in the Washington Office (i.e. National NFMAS dude), appeared briefly before the trainees to explain the WO budgeting process (no info provided on the above issue).  At that session, Mr. Lundgren stated that the difference between the amount of MEL Congress delivers, the amount requested, and the resulting potential loss of property,lands and resources is referred to as "Congressional Risk".  Now there's an cute phrase!  It reminds me of "acceptable losses", "casualty reports" or "expendable resources" used by the military (as they avoid saying dead soldiers) referring to their personnel and equipment loss when statistics are compiled after combat. What "initial attack" resources really are is insurance.  Just like personal life insurance (which they frequently are), they may not be used on a  daily basis, although someone, somewhere, does.  BUT, history dictates, they WILL be used over and over.  When they aren't actively providing fire suppression they can provide income from unit projects.  When that interferes or competes with private jobs, pay them to train and  prepare for future suppression.  The mere existence of  the thousands of State, County, and city fire departments across the nation is evidence the majority of citizens don't seem to mind paying for the insurance these agencies provide.  How do the voters in the states suffering the enormous losses of property and resources from huge damaging fires the last five years feel about the cutesy little term of "Congressional risk"?  Would a few, some, many of these fires have been stopped during initial attack if the resource capabilities from just ten years ago were still in place?  I certainly think so, readers? If enough of you agree with me so far, let's now calculate the amount of money it took to suppress those major fires we feel sure would have been contained during IA, add the dollar amount of the property and resource values lost, then request a small part of that be given to the DOA and DOI to get them up to 100% MEL. . .ooops, well deja vu, imagine my embarrassment.  We've already done that part.  Haven't we?  Ab.
03/16	Stu, You make some valid points.  A couple of thoughts: 1.  Are the trade-offs that you mention worth $13/hour ($150/day) per firefighter ($3,000/day/20 person crew)? 2.  What about the hidden costs of contract administration?  The qulity control problems that have been acknowledged by all who have worked with contractors can only be corrected by increased levels of administration and increased cost. 3.  The majority of medical expenses are handled by the medical unit.  Are you saying that contractors do not reimburse the government for times when their employees utilize services that are intended for government employees? 4.  AD cost to government does not include unemployment.  If contractors include that in their costs then  the net cost to government of using a contractor is increased. Eric, "If the engine is a hazard, it is canned right  there.Believe me they  are rather thorough"  That may be the case some or most of the time, but their have been some real pieces of junk that have showed up on the line.  Reason?, lack of contract administration. -FireBooger-, you are correct, no arguement with any of your points. I am not a contractor, but I think it would be in the contractor's best interest if they formed a self-regulating organization that would set member standards, inspect members for compliance, and serve in a regulatory function.  If contractors are to be the wave of the future (which I believe to be only partially correct) the earlier contractors face up to these growing pains the better. 6
03/16	Ab and All, I know this may seem like beating a dead horse, but heck here is one more  lick. The LP administered it's first official pack test today. The group of 12 was  made up of 1 Division, BC's, a few Captains, an FPT, Hotshot and Helicopter  Superintendent, the Airbase Mgr and 1 militia. The test was taken at a very nice track at a local high school. The test was taken by all except one at  the arduous level.  All passed with times that averaged in the 39-41 minute  range. There were also a couple of exceptional times in the mid 30's. I have  no problem with staying in shape, PT'ing and testing for a physical job. No  wanking on that side..in fact  I am a firm believer that 2 hrs a day keeps  the doctor away, What I do have a problem with is walking around a flat track real, real fast with 45 pounds on my back in under 45 minutes.  What in the heck has this  silly test got to do with fighting fire?? Measures my work capacity you say?  I wasn't even winded at the end, but I do have a couple of very sore knees  and shins. This little demonstration that we put on today was almost the most  ludicrous thing I have ever done in my 26 years with the Forest Service. (the  most ludicrous is another story). If this is the best "test" for employment our drawing board can come up with  then maybe it is time to move the drawing board.  Really feller's, you must  have created this test just to see how gullible we are and whether anyone  would actually implement it!! What we really need is a test that emulates what we really do..like line  construction, hill hiking at a realistic pace and laying hose. I have never  in my career on either the hotshots or engines put 45 lbs on my back and  walked really, really fast on flat ground for 45 minutes. Guess if I wanted  to trash my knees and back a little faster than the job already does I would  have given it a try though. In my humble opinion Management has traded one inexpensive, easy to  administrate worthless test (step) for a more costly, pain in the neck to  administrate worthless test (pack). Must be new math..way to go feller's!!! Thanks for the opportunity to vent Ab..gotta go ice my knees and add some  more ibuprofen to my system........Tony@SBA
03/16	Mellie... i dont recollect that you gave me any fruit, but i appreciate  the gesture. I personally was on a Ferguson crew, and i thought we did a damn  good piece of work. I guess i was unclear in my statement. I rather enjoyed  my stint as a digger in the many trenches around onion, and remember a few  very cold, solemn nights "holding and improving" while the prineville boys  and girls ran around with flare guns, and the ocassional fireboss wielding  his TerraTorch. The equipment of the contractors may not be the most  attractive nomex or even decent packs most of the time, but there is alotta  heart and soul, and more than enough willpower to crank with the best crews.  My crew was reclassed in redding to type 1 and was set in charge of a small  burn called the Swift fire in Coffee creek. It was a fantastic experience,  and was run by 3 of our overhead, all ex-USFS gents, as well as many newer and more verile employees. Then supplemented later with 4 other oregon based  contractor crews, and well out of reach of any engine, as we all know. This  just goes to show you that an all contractor fire CAN and WILL go out in 4  days at 200 acres......
03/16	The automotated application system is a bit rough isn't it?  Its a new system, and like most new systems in the FS it usually sucks for a while. The Jacobs Report - Hmmmm.  Interesting.  I wish I had my copy , but I loaned it, but I seem to recall the team thought this organization would be budget neutral.  I believe with assumption that a lot of the cost of the teams would be funded out of fire fighting emergency funds that are spent anyway.  Ok.  Also local fire resources would not be mobilized for large incidents except during rare emergencies.  So where does the cadre of folks gain large fire management experience to fill in behind folks leaving the teams come from?  I am sure it would be worked out at some point.  Added to @'s excellent points, I think the implementation team has a lot of work ahead of it.  Need to look for unintended consequences. 100% of MEL?  I would be real suprised if we ever saw it.  Most MEL's are based on NFMAS analysis, which can be made a very complex model, with the analyst controling a lot of what comes out by assumptions going in.  Most of these that I have looked at are really nice organizations, but I doubt you could sell it to the politicians for more than a year or two.  But most organizations at 60% of MEL would make it in a slow year, but average years seem to run a high probability of overwhelming the local folks at some point.  What seems to be going on is get funded around 60% then spend several months groveling for supplemental bucks to move it up to 75%, then if things look bad go for severity.  Of course if you get the extra money, then you have to deal with the Boise for personnel as the rehires you were counting on got tired of waiting an found a job with the BLM. If Congress and WO ever did come up with 100% MEL, all it would take is a '93 and "what do we need all these guys for" would set in.  I bet consistant funding at 80% would be ok, better than what has been going on anyway. Militia (god I hate that term!) as we remember it from 70's and 80's is dead.  Ain't gonna come back.  Aging workforce is a reason, pay cap is a reason (doesn't bother me, I just like fighting and lighting), change in agency mission is a reason, downsizing, specialization, certification, and (please be gentle with me) workforce diversity.  Before you start in on me it ain't due to bad or evil people, its due to that very diversity we sought, and the outfit losing the idea that forest protection is part of the job.  In gaining a Forestry or other NR degree programs in the 60's 70's, fire control and forest protection was not an elective, it was part of the job.  Fire management, to extent of actually doing it, is now optional unless you have a fire position.  Was it 94 or 95 the 75% of the workforce would be redcarded and available edict came out?  Studiously ignored as I recall.  I do not recall the Ranger inquiring as to how many folks had even bothered to step test, much less pass it as I recall happening in the past.  Downsizing and specialization - no one to cover work back at the ranch any more.  Even folks who could cover can't cause they arn't "certified".   Of course everything is more complicated, which forces specialization.  Example: in about 84 I was happily doing fire behavior predictions on a TI-55 (which beat charts and nomographs) for the first time for a burn plan when we got the call that our neighbor district had a prescribed burn go bad on 'em.  The call was bring all you have, so we cleaned out the office - literally.  The Ranger personally was asking why of the three or four who didn't grab their stuff and ruling on excuses.  One of our pre-sale Foresters failed to have his boots at the office, boy did he get a chewing!  We put 2 type 6 engines, a 1000 gal WT, and about 25 people on the road with tools, rations,  water on the road in an hour.  This was about 75% of the workforce that worked there.  Didn't think anything of it.  Was part of the job.  I doubt you could see a response like this now.  Rangers won't get involved, will take no for an answer.  Remember many of our line officers do not have any fire experience or very little and were not indoctrinated that forest protection was part of everybodies job.  Its too bad holding a redcard is not part of job performance elements.  Wasn't back then but was in there as "other duties as assigned".   I will say this, there could be hope.  Our non-fire seasonals, as a group, seem to be a willing as ever, but of course are unavailable due to "targets".  So as a duty officer you get tired of asking and eventially you stop.  Its easier to order up crews.  The problem, to use trendy terminology, is the outfit underwent a paradigm change, we brought it on ourselves, and to go back would take more will and backbone than the agency posesses.  So naturally, there has to be a practically self sufficient fire organization, cause there ain't any militia, or it is very small.  Well enough.  Stay safe out there. A CO used to go Lurker.

03/16	Damn, this is the last time that I do not check the postings for more than  three days, must have taken an hour to catch up.  Just a comment for Wildfire Eric, you stated that the FPD folks (VFD in some  states) do not need red cards.  Not true in WA State, L&I regulation require  at least WFF-2 to suppress a wildfire.  But the definition of a wildfire-in  L&I regulations is "any forest or brush fire that takes one hour or longer to  suppress."  This has to do with the heat stress encountered while wearing  bunker gear and chinking line or packing a 4" hose line to piss on stump (I  have seen it happen).  If the fire takes longer than an hour then the  District is allowed to "platoon" its firefighters in and out of the action so  the 1 hour rule is obeyed. Any District that gets called up for wildfire suppression by a state or  federal agency, is reminded that any folks that they send must be carded!  More and more WA structure firefighters are getting carded, but there are  still Districts out there, mostly in the true urban areas, that will not give  wildland training to their folks for one rea$on or another.  WP
03/16	Wildland Fire Fatality in South Dakota According to National Public Radio, the Delmont, South Dakota firefighter who was seriously burned on a grass fire on March 7 passed away this morning (Thursday, March 16).  No details about the funeral are available yet, and can't provide any more information. I hope that all firefighters who can will be present at the funeral of our fallen comrade, with engines when possible.  I will keep you posted with more information as it is available. Engine Dude
03/16	Hey out there......... Contract fire came about to fill a void.  A void created by budget problems, mother nature, some mis-management of our forest lands over the last 50+ years and "way out there" environmentalist (Big Bar).  No way can any one predict what's going to be needed in resources for the next fire year.  One year the gov't has too much and the next year not enough.  When gov't resources run out, here we are, the Freelance Fire Fighters of America. With changing times, we change.  Chasing fire was in a few years ago but a big "NO NO" now.  We were not that good then, but a lot better now.  Some slow fire years we find other things to do with our time.  On big fire years, we'll meet the challenge head on and love it all the way.  Just like the rest of you FF. Why not? it's fun, challenging, and a good way to stay in shape while making some money.  Can't beat that.  We (contract fire) are not out there to take your jobs. We are out there to support your fire agency when needed.  And as the Oregon contractor stated, we are trained under the same courses and many have worked for USFS/BLM.  If we don't come up to the standards, run our a-- down the road.   Shape up or ship out.    Thanks for the work USFS and BLM. If any of you are concerned about what's going on out there, take a look at the cover page of February Wildland Firefighter.  WOW, a fire breathing firefighter or is it what I think it is??? Freelancer
03/16	Does anyone out there have any comments on the new automated temporary hiring process that they are using in Boise.  We are trying it this year, and I have found it to be a pain in the # # #!!!!!!  They system is not all that user friendly, it took 8 days to get a cert, and then it only had one person on it.  We have several units here locally, in the past we have had the temps put in their applications at the local employment office, from there we gathered up the applications and went over them.  This year on the BLM side we had close to 150 applications for the jobs that we had to fill.  To only get one name on a cert does not cut it.  I would love to hear if anyone else has had the same experiences?????  It is suppose to be better not a step backwards!!!!! Good luck hiring if you plan to use this system, hope it works better for you than it did for me. dispatcher

03/16	Burt- The Megram did not get as far as Orleans as you can see from the map at the site Ab mentioned. It also didn't burn Crogan Hole or Bear Hole in the Trinity Alps. They're east of the fire's boundary.  The eastern and northern boundary of the Megram went from Slide Creek (near Old Denny) on the east; up to Mary Blaine Peak, Dees Peak, Potato Mountain and Eagle Creek; and more north around to Young's Peak; then almost over to Salmon Mt at the "head" of Devil's Backbone; and some down into the Red Cap Creek drainage. Some good photos from the north from the Shasta-Trinity side are here. http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/shastatrinity/fire/summary/photos/big_bar_photos.htm Note that all three lower photos are of the Salmon Canyon environs a little to the east of Orleans. Check out what happened as the fire blewup into the blowdown on Sept 27and 28 during the wind event. Just stupendous! (BTW, that's the Trinity Alps poking up in the distance.)  Other photos as the fire crossed Devil's Backbone into Six River's National Forest are available at http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/sixrivers/fire/photos.htm   Mellie
03/16	Ab, A short note regarding contractors.  As the amount of private suppression vendors increases, so does the competition among them to get the disatch.  I've seen the quality of experience and professionalism rise dramatically in the last couple of years.  Bear
03/16	Sounds like some forests/agencies need to look to the SW Oregon area (Mainly Grants Pass/Illinois Valley) to see how mutual aid should truly work.  Under good ol' MEL the Siskiyou staffs one type 6 engine on the eastside of the forest and one on the westside.  The eastside (Two Rivers Fire Zone) covers two districts for about 512,000 acres with a fair amount in wilderness areas.  The majority though is outside wilderness.  Most of the Zone is under mutual aid with Oregon Department of Forestry which has access to 12 engines (mixture of 200 gal and 500 gal with a 1500 gal at headquarters), 10 person handcrew, plus a type II helo as the fire danger goes up.  Whenever there is a fire, the closet resource is assigned.  No matter if it is on State or Federal.  As the danger goes up, more resources are scheduled to respond.  More often than not, State gets to the fire first whether it be on State or Federal land.  Never seems to be problem who is there first.  Not sure if this is a big issue around the wildland community but I would bet it is.  One thing to remember:  we all want to protect our little bit of agency area and don't like others sticking their nose in; but, to the public we are wildland firefighters and they could care less who puts out the fire.  They just want it out and don't care what color the engine is or where their paycheck comes from.  Just "Protect my home"!  If some of you out there are in this "It's mine, and you can't play with it" thought pattern, look at this side of it.  The Two Rivers averages somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 fires per year and the ODF averages 200-300 responses per year.  Gee, I wonder if it would be to the advantage of Two Rivers (or any federal agency) to respond to mutual aid blocks outside the federal lands.  Alot more chances to make $$$$$ folks, not to mention gaining more wildland fire experience, moving up the Operations ladder faster and possibly setting yourself up for another job opportunity should the Feds continue to cut budgets and downsize.  (Sidenote here:  in 1987 the Siskiyou staffed something like 20-25 engines on the forest seven days per week.)  Firehorse
03/16	DISPATCH DUDE, if you are really concerned with TAXPAYER'S dollars, let's be honest about the TRUE cost of AD's vs contractors.  Perhaps you are unaware or just decided to ignore the basic facts (as some of the "bean counters" in Cost Units) as to what you get for your dollar from a contract dollar.  Here is a little lesson in "fire" economics:     1.  What does the AD rate ($10.68-$11.72) per hour cover?  The wage of the employee.           What does the $23-$25 per hour for a contract employee cover?  The wage of the employee, and the hidden expenses that ARE NOT covered with an AD rate.      2.  What are the hidden cost?  Insurance, as in unemployment, workman's compensation, and  liability.  The hiring agency covers that for the AD. Medical expenses during an assignment.  True, minor problems are covered at the Medical Unit, but doctor visits are the responsibility of the contractor. Transportation; part of that higher contractor rate covers the transportation cost just getting the contractor to the assignment.  This includes PURCHASE COST (or rent/lease cost) of the contractors vehicles.  Dispatch Dude, priced a vehicle lately? Along with the vehicle purchase price, include upkeep and fuel.  Fueling at an incident is not FREE.  (Fueling cost in fire camp is deducted from the contractor's invoice.)  Most AD crews are provided transportation under contract.  That money does not come out of their wages. Equipment; contractors must purchase their Nomex, PPE, hand tools, etc. Chainsaws with the contractor are generally not signed up for an hourly rate as they are with ADs.  The contractor must pay for the upkeep and fuel/oil for their saw.  (No going to supply for FREE fuel/oil, chains and parts.) Other capital expenses; required (by contract) equipment such as radios, first aid kits, etc.     3.  Profit or LOSS.  After covering all the cost, both upfront and hidden, what is left is the contractor's profit and at times, their loss. Don't get the wrong impression that I am anti-AD.  Been there, done that. The AD ranks are an excellant source for hiring! Fire Booger and Eric provided rebuttal to the other topics of concern so I'll let their comments stand! Stu
03/16	Hey Ab I am interested how far to the north did the Oinion/Meagram fire burn.  Reason i am asking is I took a trip up to the area when the fires were at about 8000 acres.  I worked on the Orleans RD SRF in 89 and 90 and am curious if the fires made it to Orleans.  I recall looking at Devils Backbone from Orleans Mtn and wondered what that area would burn like.  Sounds like it burned very well.  I guess I am glad I seen the area before it burned.  Also my wife was a back country ranger in the Trinity Alps around Crogan Hole and Bear Hole did these areas burn?  I almost made it up to the Big Bar late in the game but I was finishing up work as a FOB on the Kirk North {a nice piece of flat real estate especially around Double Ventana Cone at H66} Well have a nice day. Burt I don't seem to be able to make a connection this morning, but try the Klamath NF fire page.  They used to have some maps of the fires. Klamath NF   There are also a couple of maps here Fire Maps Ab.
03/16	In regards to your comment on, mutual aid, "how viable is it?" you ask, "to get a true mutual aid system running ." I remember years ago, lets say in the ... 70's, and early 80's, while I was working USFS in N.Cal, when an incident got toned out, everyone got to roll. The closest resources got their first, and who's side of the line it was on, got worked out later. Depending on the fire danger, low, med, high, would depend what your dispatch level was, while you might not be one of the resources dispatched to the incident, if you looked it up in the Run Book, for every engine dispatched, another one would bump up and cover, the vacated station.    Very few people remember the run books, I thought they were pretty damn viable back then, what happened to that system, it was in place and now it's gone. I was pretty simple, something like on a low day, the two closest engines would cover a certain type of incident, on a high day, the 5 closest might roll, but another 5 got bumped up to cover, being that much closer, in case more resources were needed. Now, it isn't unusal for a red engine to fly by a station where a  green engine is parked....   What happened? It didn't matter what color your engine was or what agency you were from back then. Now it smells a little more like, politics, budgets, red tape, and who's in office, to me? Remember the forest service, before...say, ah Regan. We did alot of things different then, with our fat little budgets and big fire shops...When you only have two engines on your forest (only kidding) you don't want to share your little smoke with the engine of another agency...even if it is closer, damnit.    mtwo
03/15	Hey Ab, I know this does'nt pertain a whole lot to the site but I was wondering how many of us out there that no longer fight fire are lurking on this site? I check in at least once a week just to see whats happening. I woked in R5 and R6 for six seasons as a crewman and a foreman on engines and had the time of my life. Unfortunatly I needed a more stable income ( wife and kid ) so I went to work for a family member and am doing just fine. Although when spring comes around I get that itch. I guess it never really gets out of your system. This is also not the first time I have written. To Eric I have seen the Imax movie Wildfire with a friend who also no longer fights fire and we loved it. It got the old blood pumping. Its only about 45min. long. enjoy I hope everyone has a safe and active fire season.  J. The web counter suggests about 3 in 100 respond or post a message.  That's a lot of lurkers.  Ab.
03/15	Hey-- E--  Some contractors on the Denny side of the Big Bar were good and some, not. Pick on some other contractors than Greyback and Ferguson though. They did a FANTASITC job at Five Waters and in Denny as well as on the east side of the Onion!!! A creek was even named after Greyback in Denny!!! E, did I hand out fruit and veggies to you on the Denny Road?  Mellie from Five Waters
03/15	While sorting photos, I rediscovered a photo taken on 11/1/21 on the El Dorado National Forest.  The photo has nothing to do directly with fire, but I am looking for information about the photographer.  One of the men in the photograph is J. Bruce.  I am not sure if R. Berriman is in the photo or took the photo.  On the back of the photo is a description of the photo signed by R. Berriman, Ranger.  The information I am looking for deals with "Ranger" Berriman.  Does anyone out there on the ENF know anything about an incident on a fire that occurred, I believe in the thirties, in which "Ranger" Berriman was fireboss.  I have heard that it might involve fire fatalities.  Thanks.  Stu
03/15	Catch up time folks and my apologies to the senders for slacking.   Ab wouldn't want to be compared to a no-good private contractor, although of course, I am, in a way, private, at least as far as this site is concerned.  On that subject, get a clue Dispatcher Dude!  Private contract fire suppression is here, it's been here, and it will play a larger part in the future.  Most difficulties and alleged problems you mention can be corrected and traced directly back to poor agency administration and weak fireline overhead.  Non-performing contractors milking a fire can be identified and sent home, performance can be documented and the weak can be weeded.  If this isn't happening it's the fault of agency supervision, not the concept of contracting.  I also dissagree with the ideal that private contracting suppression is the training ground for future federal agency employees.  Rather, it's well documented that the feds provide the training and experience for new employees who then parlay their skills into higher compensating and more respected positions of employment with state, county, and local fire departments.  See here for just one small example:  Recruit Seven nice new logos on a new logo page, Logo2.  As with all photo pages I try to keep them at 25 thumbnails or less for faster downloading.  I also want to demonstrate that some of that MEL you've been reading about is actually reaching some of the places needing it the most.  Here's a pic from a dispatcher showing their new radio system to prove it. Dispatch  Tounge firmly in cheek. . . Ab.
03/15	Fire booger, love that Nick, anyways This will be my last message concerning Contractors. To get an EERA'  Emergency Equipment Rental Agreement in R6  You have to have your equipment inspected. The inspection consists of four parts.     #1.  Is Mechanical.   If the engine is a hazard, it is canned right there.Believe me they  are rather thorough ( I didn't look over the engines this well when I bought them!) #2.  Is inventory.   There is quite a list of gear that one needs to fight fire.  We all know this.    Most contractors have more then the Minimum Required Inventory. #3.    Is performance.   The pumps, must pass performance tests.  It must blow 147Lbs at 50Gal minute for engines(the PSI reqd to shoot a stream at 50 gpm through a 3/8s orifice and at the end of 100ft 1.5" hose),  and be capable of pulling about 12 feet vertical of draft. #4.    Fourth is Qualifications.   All personnel must be carded,  with One ENGB qualified person per engine.  In addition,   a resume of every person the contractor wishes to employ must be on file with the Portland Office prior to their employ on Wildfire incidents.    Using people not on your list or in the Federal Register is grounds for   termination of the contract. Then how do you ask are these "Junkers" getting on the line?   They are working the AD Administratively Determined?  rates.   This is a loophole that allows ANYONE to call themselves a contractor, and work a fire.   They fall into the same loopholes that VFDs do.  (I AM NOT CRAPPING ON VFD's HERE THIS IS THE LOOPHOLE THAT ALLOWS ANYONE TO WORK FIRES.  ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS LOOK AT KITSAP COUNTY"S WILDLAND PROGRAM,   NO  WAY CAN YOU CALL THEM SLACKERS in fact doing a training burn with them the 26th)  this class is allowed to show up at a fire uninvited, and ask to work.  They arent required to hove a single tool, or piece of hose, or any insurance - other than the minimum required to drive there.  They dont even have to have red cards. These are the guys making all of us look bad.  If you see someone like this dont put up with it.  Tell the IC, and they'll can em.  They arent supposed to use them for more than 24 hours anyways.  Until they can replace them with a qualified piece of contracted apparatus.      Call me if you have questions or concerns. Once again  99% of my guys worked the fed system, and just prefer the private sector.  Does this mean they forgot everything?  they become less safe?  We all do the same refreshers you do,  we all have access to the same classes you do. Eric Pacific Wildfire Pacificrimwildfire@email.msn.com
03/15	The post from "@" rang my bell and prompted this response. The agencies inability to staff an adequate number of professional Incident Management Teams is a complex issue comprised of many factors.  Some of the factors are manageable and within the control of managers responsible for this important task.  It takes leadership (not managers) and a willingness to listen to the issues to institute change and reverse the downward trend that has been clearly evident these past few years.  A fundamental reform of the system is needed to retain existing teams and recruit new talent to staff additional teams.  These reforms need to be made and supported at the highest level of the agencies and backed with sufficient funding for the objectives mentioned above to be successful. Having served as the Information Officer on Type I and II teams through the years, (and many other positions) I have had the opportunity to listen to many concerns and comments from overhead teams, line officers, "fire managers" and all types of firefighters.  Combine this with comments from the public (during and after incidents) and many issues and suggestions are consistently mentioned that could change the system for the better, if only the "right leader" would listen and take appropriate action(s). Primarily, the issues or common threads expressed by many (including myself) for attracting and retaining team members are the economic and social recognition factors involved with incentives.  They are being reduced and degraded rather than improved.  Recognition and acknowledgement of the duties along with a realistic salary that reflects the commitment of time and experience needs to be reformed.  There must be valid economic reasons for assuming the responsibilities of a 3-year IMT commitment.  Assuming the salary from your normal job and applying it to the responsibilities of an overhead team simply does not make sense.  Being on call-back all season long and traveling across the country and away from your family is never recognized.  Support, or the lack of support from the home office is also sited as a reason for not taking on fire assignments.  Normal work assignments simply do not 'go away" when the fire is out and you return. I cannot begin to address all of the factors responsible for the downward trends and the inability of the agencies to staff IMT's with this simple post, but at least this discussion forum begins to get people thinking in the right direction.  A classic quote from one well-known line officer usually begins this way..." I have no opinion, but here is what I think..." Let's hear from others on this subject... Lasagna
03/15	I do get a kick outa looking at things from both sides of the fence. I  personally am a structurally trained and currently enrolled paramedic  student, but rode the contractor bandwagon to 2 fires in cali this year --  ABSOLUTELY UNHEARD OF FOR OREGONIAN R-6 CONTRACTORS!! -- and you have to  consider it from the side of the many people who dont qualify, have been  turned away by the USFS or other governmental organizations, or just dont  want to work in the bureaucratic world they see in the govie jobs. The contractors are the training grounds of your future governmental  firefighters, and the retirement plan of many ex-shots and ex-overhead. This is also the pool with whick you do NOT have to be out there mopping up the  po-dunkers and the (*&$#in stumphole you put out last night and every other  night for the past week. They are the boneheads that are willing to do the  really nasty jobs that noone else wants to do... how else do you think that 3  miles of hose you just plumbed into division B got outa there when you left  for cali or nevada? Its all in your perspective my friends. Its just like  anything else out there on the line, you have your good crews and your bad  crews. I know i worked with a few that i wished would go back to the prison  they came from or crawl back under that rock, but hell without them what  kinda variety are we in for? Its the experience we are out there for... cuz  we could all make a helluvalot more money pushin pencils. So just dont forget where your partner came from.. mighta just been a Skookum lackie, Greyback  slacker, or in some cases..... a Ferguson rook.... Be safe out there E
03/15	RE: Contract equipment/crews Well, sure every piece of cake has yummy frosting. Yes I can count the excellent highly qualed, ex-agency outfits, functioning to stay in the business as good to go. BUT, is that really the standard that showes up on the incident dispatched with good intentions. Give me a break. The folks in R-6 operate on a regionally issued contract for engs/tenders. They have to pass inspections, show training and quals, but I can tell you that ain't enough. Yes these folks get performance evaluations, documented, that given a calm wind and a short downpour they can keep 100 feet of black along the line the same color thoughout the burning period. But it's a tough go. The vast majority of contract equipment/crews are in for the money. MONEY. MONEY. If they work really hard they cut off the MONEY. OK, sure we are all in it for the money....sure....if you think so. Hey i'm getting paid even when it snows. If you think contract equipment put out Big Bar. Excuse me. If that were the case why did the fire duration last from Aug 23-Nov 3? Cost 81 million bucks, and light up 140,907 acres. Eventually it'll snow or rain. Low prioritization, overall lack of crews, and other wilderness etc issues dragged these out. If you wanta read some interesting stuff check out the "Policy Implications of Large Fire Management, A Stratigic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs" USDA FS, Jan 21, 2000. 43 pages of analysis triggered by Kirk & Big Bar. There are standards, hell for the R-6 contract, it's clear. Ask yourself how many of these folks ACTUALLY huffed out a 45 min/45 pound WCT? Get this....They are self certifying. We have good outfits here locally, but we also have something lots less than that. Bottom line, M-3 funding for FS, 75-80% BLM, and bet on the come. Makes you wonder why they fund National Resources, Air-tankers/IHC crews/smokeleapers at 100%, IA preparedness resources at 40-80%. Are they betting on large fire support, thats the way I read 100% funding of National Resources. Outside of leapers, which you make look at as IA resources, air tankers & type I crews are mostly committed to Large Fire Support. We bet we will loose. What would happen if we funded IA resources at 100% MEL.  I bet we would save money. DISPATCH DUDE
03/15	Thanks SO MUCH for speaking up "@"  A few more thoughts on the agency strategy: NIMO teams WILL make the overhead more "elitist" and not having the BLM included in the overhead will make it even worse! BLMers what are your thoughts????? You're being cut out of the loop! We need ALL who are committed to fire!  Think what this "AGENCY STRATEGY" does to you who are my friends on the fireline (the group of friends WITH WHOM I have the greatest allegiance! and they include BLM groundpounders and other cooperators!) If we have a new elite group, will not the argument follow that THEY are the only ones who are worthy of the category "professional firefigher"? Screw that! What is the WO doing on legislation regarding pay and job classification for FFers??? While I'm at it, portal-to-portal would simplify the system on the incident and in the home forest afterwards! Let's see how those savings might compare to the existing system!!! These things can be modelled, folks!!! (Damn it, give me the data and I'll do it!!! WO, don't just give it up because it seems to cost more upfront! Are there any "critical thinkers" who are WARRIORS out there in Washington? Or is the system so SUCKY that no one has a chance?   Regarding professionalism, the beginninf FF class (FF1)is a PROFESSIONAL level class! I know education and I know professionalism! The young "lean and the mean" I joked about include honor roll high schoolers and eagle scouts. Unfortunately, we have lost about 5 good people who live further out, who have terrific orienteering and woods sense, and one or two who have experience with fire. How could we have kept them? If some of the training we've done was available on the internet, we would not have lost those guys. They have computers, but their families have not provided them with cars to make it into town. One I give a ride to. His daily deep-felt appreciation embarrasses me! When I've had to be gone, I've tried to get family members to help him set up a ride. (He does not have a computer and online training might not have helped him. But he does have friends with computers.)  I have to admit, if computer training had been available I would have found it easier to stay up with material in the class (except for the performance part)! But, for me, I'm so lost in FIRE that I'll do almost anything to keep going. For the younger guys and gals on the verge of being hooked, practicalities play a bigger part.  And what about those we want to retain? What about training at the higher levels, you guys? Can some of it be done on-line? As kids who join us come up, could they do some of it online? Every company that's had to downsize has gone to greater computer use and training. What's wrong with us? There are a few visionaries wihin FIRE who are and have been TRYING to rise to the opportunity to use new technology and pull us all ahead. Often there's not much support for them... SAD that vision is so lacking on some forests! We seem to hamstring some of our best at every turn! So SIR BOMBARDERO-- here's to you and your agency strategy. I think go for 100% MEL. If this makes me a whiner just send me e-mail at five_waters@hotmail.com and I'll tell you what I really think! And screw the spell-checker!!! Mellie PS Phew, Tiny, I love you... (Did she really say we shouldn't have a hug like that?) And let's get that 100% MEL ON THE GROUND!  Apparently, Congress believes it's providing 75% of MEL.  Why then is only 40-50% reaching the ground in Region 5?  A recently observed budgeting process flow chart reveals apportionment to "Earmarks & Bloodsuckers" immediately above the field units.  Umm Hmm, Ab.
03/15	Hey Ab  was wondering how your trip went.   Congrats Mellie, SCBA test is tough especially for the smaller statured.      Anyone seen the IMAX movie Wildfire?  its showing in Vancouver BC. (about three hours from where i liive)   was wondering if it was worth the drive.  I am tired of people thinking forest firefighting is what Howie Long does in that movie Firestorm.  HA! Read Dispatch Dudes rply to someone.  I agree Whining doesnt help anyone get work.   As for wanting to play fire fighter.   80 percent of the contractors I know are VFD members.  or are full time firefighters.    I hope none of them look at this as a game,  as it is very serious business.    and as for letting the fires burn to make money.    If that were the case,   we wouldnt be around.  Its obvious if someone is productive or not,   the ones that arent go home. Just a thought.   Dispatch Dude,  PLEASE call me, as  we are trying to get rid of the contractors that make us all look bad I could use your input. Dont let a few rotten apples spoil the barrel. Be safe out there.   Also Anyword on the fires in the Southeast.  the Sit report isnt to helpful for details.   Got friends there and was wondering if their keeping busy. Later Eric Pacific Wildfire  <---   signs his emails Pacificrimwildfire@email.msn.com 253 460 7323 Thanks for asking Eric, last weeks trip was successful, this weeks is going well, and have high hopes for next weeks.  Ab.
03/15	Dispatch dude.  I can see what you're saying about contract engines not  always being capable.  We've all seen our share of Jury-rigged engines held  together with duct tape manned by people who played extras in the movie  "Deliverance"  Not to mention sleazy contractors who stiff their employees.      But you shouldn't paint them all with the same brush.  I've worked with  a couple of good outfits that had first class equipment manned by retired FS  div. bosses.  What would've happened had their been no contractors at the Big  Bar complex?    If the feds got a beef with low grade outfits, they need to develop some  national (or at least regional) standards.  Since budgets keep getting  smaller, contractors will become increasingly more important when resource  shortages occur.  The agencies using contractors need to be more involved in  quality control.  Part of this should involve red card qualifying  contractors.  This would allow the feds an opportunity to observe things  first hand in the spring and weed out the real goofballs.       Some contractors are ex fed or state firefighters who got other things  going and just want to spend a few weeks at a time on fires without spending  the rest of the summer sweeping out an engine bay.      AS far as motivation goes, once the fire's controlled EVERYBODY doesn't make as much money. A contractor has to impress the division boss in the  hopes of getting a good reputation.  In the private sector it's about  production.  Having worked both public and private, I can see how some  government employees would have no conception of profits/production.            -FireBooger-
03/14	This post is in respose to Bombardero del Fuego, I've been working with team members on the "NIMO Implementation Team".  The  current proposal is to have 10 Permanent Incident Management Teams that would  respond to Type I AND Type II incidents.  The total overhead they're looking  at is about 400 people. In the course of their research, team members found that in 1996, there were  23 Type I and Type II teams activated at one point in time in Montana ALONE!  What kinds of contingencies will be developed for incident 11, 12, 13....? These same team members and I discussed the following scenrio... Take a diagram (we used a box) where 25% of the total Federal population is  currently going to fires.  That leaves 75% of the Federal population who are  NOT going to fires. Now, where do you think the NIMO folks are going to come from?  That's right,  the same 25% who CURRENTLY go to fires.  We don't ADD to the existing 25% who  currently go to fires.  We just shift them around in the box! Most of these people are also filling many of our Fire Management positions.  So, if we take them from the Fire Management ranks, where do we get the  skills to fill in behind them? Don't get me wrong.  I think there are several excellent ideas in the new  strategy.  But what problem(s) are we trying to fix here? We (the Feds and others) are consistently developing remedies to problems we  haven't clearly defined.  So, we end up fixing the wrong thing, or making  larger problems for ourselves after we "fixed" something else. So, let's describe the problem.  What incentives are there for FS employees  to leave their jobs and their families for several weeks; live in rustic  dwellings; who often LOSE money because of the GS-10/1 cap on the overtime  hourly rate; and have to document a break every few hours, regardless if they  take one or not???? Instead of taking the 25% and moving them around in the "box", why don't we  develop some incentives that will attract the other 75%? A highly respected Fire Manager once described the situation like this... He had two lines of people who wanted to go to fires going out of his office.   One line was short and the other line went around the block.  The short line  included the few FS employees who support fires because they love what they  do.  They don't need much incentive to go out there and support the cause. The long line includes all the cooperators who get paid portal-to-portal, at  twice the pay rate of their Federal firefighter partners; they get to go  outside their "local jurisdictions" and travel all over the country at  government expense; and they gain valuable wildland fire experience to boot. Let's not criticize our non-Federal firefighter partners.  The problem is with the system, not with the people.  I know there are a few people who are  working with Congressional representatives to get this problem resolved where  it needs to be done.  But, they need our support. If you want to make a difference, write to your local congressional  representative, or to IAFF, or send a letter to the Chief of the Forest  Service, or the Chief of whichever is your agency-of-choice, and let them  know how you feel.  Don't whine.  Especially those of you who USED to support fires but don't anymore.  Tell them why you don't support fires  anymore...MILITIA are you listening??? I apologize for the length of this post.  This is an important subject and  needs to get some attention. "@" No apologies necessary, input on this subject is critical!  Ab.
03/14	To whomever can help me, I am a student in the Santa Ana College fire program, and have been assigned a project on a personel protective device.  Some people have chosen sprinkler systems, some have chosen different types of structure boots to wear.  As a future fighter, I am very interested in wildland fires and was wondering if there's any new or experimental equipment out there for the safety of wildland firefighters.  I've been looking at the Cal-OSHA and NFPA sites but I can't find anything.  It doesn't have to have a standard but it would help.  I would extremely apprciate any help anyone could give me.  You can contact me at ffbear@hotmail.com.  Thank you very much for your time.                                      Sincerley,                        Cameron Boyle P.S.  If you can send me any info by mail, e-mail me and I'll give you my adress.
03/14	Ab; the thought of a fire fighter getting burned like that just saddens me, just one thought, if Boise can make such a fuss and send thousands of dollars worth of fire fighting equipment to mexcio than why can't we outfit these volenteer people, Iam sure they would kick in a few bucks for some used nomex, god no's we have a shit load in our wharehouse.           popp
03/14	An interesting thing happened the other day… I think it was last week  Wednesday, but I’m not too sure, things have been crazy for me, mid-term  weeks, a few car accidents, a minor structural fire. As you may or may not  know, I am a young fireman at the VFD (Volunteer Fire Department). That  afternoon, me and a few older dogs were lounging around the station, two of  the college-going kids were resting after they had to hose down the command  vehicle, a fire-engine red (okay so it’s cliché color) Jeep Cherokee. I  honestly think that they ended up wetter after hosing than the vehicle ever  did.      Then a nice lady came in, looking for patches. She had talked  animatedly with the desk clerk for a while. Through some discussion on the  matter, she was referred to me, as the clerk’s son is in my Scout troop and,  through that, the clerk knows me to be a patch collector. Unfortunately, I  didn’t have any patches of the type the lady was looking for; the FD doesn’t  make a separate patch, and we don’t have an outstanding logo of any sort,  also she was looking for forest and fire crew logos. I think I had mentioned  that if I had anything like that, that I would have probably found a way to  digitize them and post them to the theysaid logo page.     Any how, as the discussion took its course I tipped my hand and said  that I was Tiny, the firepup. The lady had a crazy look of disbelief, the  kind with the jaw dropped open, blue eyes round, curly hair springing out  etc. For a moment I thought she was going to faint. Regaining herself, she  said that she was Mellie from Five Waters and gave me a big hug. Now, what  are the odds that two collaborators on an acronym project that would be  posted to this forum would meet? Considering our hometowns must be some 900+  miles apart, by roads. Any how, just wanted to say it was nice to meet  someone behind the posts to theysaid, even though it was by sheer  coincidence and, at that, for only for a few brief moments. She and I talked  for ten minutes before our crew got called out to haul a car from a ditch.  Off she went, heading home, the clerk said, and gave an admonition of something about me needing to stick with ladies my own age, no matter if  they were related with fire or not.      Well, I had better get back to my studies. Stay safe out there all, and  Mellie... don’t quote me too often about what I said about the internet,  okay? *Grin* And once again, good job on the SCBA Test! (Yes, that will be one of the few times you will hear me call it that..  'Scott Packs' just sound better... but that's another tale for another day.)   As ever, Tiny, the R-6 fire-pup
03/14	RE: Contract crews/equipment You wanted my opinion, here it comes. I'mma fed dispatcher,  and frankly,  I don't understand why you want my help to dry your tears. You wanna play firefighter, get a firefighter job, the States & Feds are currently hiring for seasonal help. You wanna whine about it, go bag fries at McDonalds. The bottom line is contract equipment has a place in the business, but it comes after Fed/State resources  paid for with our tax dollars are committed or unavailable. We have plenty of contract equipment out here every year. Wah! Frankly, it ain't all up to what is cut out to be.  We use tax dollars to prepay for many National programs such as SRV at 100% funding levels. Close to jet-ports, these programs hire 20-30 type II crews, trained and available for the mission.  Paid  AD-2 & 3's ($10.68-$11.72 year2000 wage scale) this is cheap compared to an  average cost $23-25/hr for contact crew members. What motivation is there for contract crews to put the fire out, when you eventually will work yourself out of a job. Your right the Feds are loosing folks thru downsizing and retirements. But the answer isn't swarm the world with contract labor. In R-6 there is an Engine & Tender contract that supplies hundreds of engines. They are suppose to be trained to, (single resource boss), level and crewed accordingly. Do you think these crews are all as effective as agency engines, trained and working together daily thru the season? I don't think so. Very few capable of mobile attack, working direct lines, and independently functioning at that skill level. No, what happens is you team them up with a COTR or STEN and marry them up with some easy mopup to free up more capable resources. Is that a good deal? Maybe, under the right circumstances.  Again, motivation to work hard and put yourself out of work, nah aint going to be effective, every fire would be a yellowstone and if the snow is gonna put em out, let it. My bottom line is contact equipment in the right time, right place, right job and right opportunity may make sense, but you be better off in the rent-a-crapper business. DISPATCH DUDE
03/13	Hi All- I need to confess that I've been kinda stressed out lately. Too much traveling to fire-related events, being reminded of death, reading heavy reports and commenting, facing family challenges, and trying to not get kicked out of Firefighter I 'cause of missing more than half the classes in February! Last week coming home to the prospect of blowing FF I left me full of dread... I had my SCBA-donning test late last Thursday, after travel to AZ and an overnight in the Seattle area. As I went to class, I honestly didn't know if I could don all that gear in the proper sequence fast enough to pass.  I'm the only "girl" left and we have only 16 of our original 41 members. What are left are the lean, the mean and me! The guys treat as one of them, kinda. They may like me more... They're certainly attentive and protective -- sweet, really. I train harder than they do aerobically, but still don't have their natural upper body strength that helps when tossing that heavy tank over your head and slipping into the shoulder straps. My hair was getting caught in the spider webbing and lots came out. Many of them have the buzzed look but they hid the clippers when I threatened to join them. <grin> I finally plastered it down with mousse. Bad hair day I told them. They laughed. But -- when they asked, I told them I was doubtful of my ability to meet the time limits with SCBA. Success was not clear. They lectured me on ways to "adjust my attitude". Hmmm, I don't do pissing and moaning... I just evaluate reality and invite the universe to co-create with me. Strange pressures -- the guys DID NOT want to hear of the possibility of failure from me. What was wonderful was that in a few more trials, I FELT it when my body "got" it, the universe shifted, and I knew I was ready for the timed test. Is it always that way?  In the end, I passed easily, with time to spare. I was ecstatic!  Do you all remember such moments of challenge achieved? Tiny, I know you do! I've decided I still need to LIGHTEN UP. Last night, Hickman  (the Ozarks hilbille) and I decided we needed to start planning the partyin' so we met in a "back room" of theysaid and started with a coupla of cyber-beers <clink>.  Many jokes and stories later, my sides hurt so bad from laughing that I thought I'd need Doc Moleskin or AZ Trailblazer for at least a few ibuprofins! (BTW, congrats AZ!) Ya' know, this is absolutely crazy, but the feel of this cyber-place we all share does have somethin' of the feel of community, multiple perspectives, dear friends, good times, laughter, sadness, and support. I'm glad to be here with all of you. Thanks Ab for your subtle whit. (BTW, are you having a problem with the site?-- or did we loose a week and the Jacobs Report into a black-cyberhole! That would be a good place for that plan!) And thanks Hickman for all the silliness! I really needed that! mellie PS If anyone has any ideas for games or activities here on theysaid and prizes for winners, post them here or send your ideas to five_waters@hotmail.com  Congrat's on passing the SCBA test Mellie!  Course we all here had no doubt. As for stress, it appears to me when I've maximized my committments and then begin to doubt my abilities.  If you never feel it, you might not be trying hard enough.  It's also nature's way of telling us to "take a break".  I'm not sure why there's a lack of response to the Jacob's report, but then I'm seldom able to predict the subjects evoking high interest here. Press on!  Abercrombie.
03/13	The following link gives some details about a volunteer firefighter that was entrapped and seriously burned on a vegetation fire in South Dakota on Tuesday, March 7.  As of Friday, March 10, he was in critical condition with 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 60 to 80 percent of his body.  The link may disappear from the newspaper site in a day or two. http://www.argusleader.com/news/Wednesdayarticle1.shtml Engine Guy
03/13	Hello all!!! Long time, no write for me. Sorry! I had a little accident but I'm gonna be ready (hopefully) for the already begining fire season. Pulaski I feel your pain (from 3/11 entry). Here in the southwest we spent a couple months (Jan & Feb) of unseaonal warmth and fires and last week over 2" of rain in town, and even more snow up north. Speaking of the tragedy in Memphis... it just goes to show how stressful this job can be and how bad things happen to good people. Does anyone know of a motive? Did he just lose it? Awhile ago one of my fellow brothers was having a problem with stress from our line of work and was heading down a dangerous road. It's amazing how much just taking a break can do. Go fishing, hunting, or whatever. Although, we all love this work (if you can call it that) its easy to get blinded to the signs of stress and being burned-out! I guess I'm trying to say is lets work hard, but let's work smart and safe. Take it easy once and awhile, watch your brother's and sister's, and most important watch and take care of yourself. Maybe we may overt another tragedy like this. Take care all, looking forward to the season, mp
03/13	RE: the agency strategy. The intent is to gather the best current command-and-general-staffers and use both mentoring and OJT - which would specifically include more frequent and varied assignments than what teams usually get now. For example, several Type 1 IMTs (because of GACC location, activation, and frequency of incidents in their area) get frequent major incidents in a year. Others, though, for similar reasons, do not.  In an ideal situation, the NIMO "teams" will rotate faster and more frequently than they do now. Experience would be gained through frequent and varied assignments; e.g. fire use and LMP "strike team" updates to reflect fire program needs and disturbance ecology (fire) effects. The large incident management organization, in this scenario, would be staffed with top-rated and DEDICATED (meaning committed and available) leaders and professionals. In the "ideal" organization, and in keeping with the concept - yes, experience and knowledge can be gained much more quickly than is currently possible. Professional risk managers note that high frequency involvement increases knowledge, skills, and ability to deal with incidents - especially in response applications. Some of us who have been around fire a while understand that the more well-rounded you are with the entire regime of wildland fire practices, the better resource manager you become.  --  Bombardero del Fuego
03/13	Hey All!! As I reported last week of all the snow and rain, wouldn't cha know it, were're back in business. Prescott Forest had a 1/2 acre fire up around Granite Basin. Also taking to Tony Sciacca (his kid just graduated from my fire academy this past weekend) Prescott Forest FMO, he stated that on the Coconino, they were getting 60 yard spots on a prescribe burn last week. We have had absolutely NO green up from the moisture that we received. Looks like we will be heading out to the Southern Area before to long to fight a little fire.  Chief Tim AKA AZ Trailblazer
03/12	Happily I can say that we enjoy a excellant relationship with state federal and several vfds in my area. All will respond to the fire call and decide which agency is responsible after the fire is out. I have reports that this is not the policy all over the state, but thank goodness is is here. We do not have any BIA, NPS, or BLM lands so there are not as many fingers in the pie. We have also not had any extended attack or campaign fires to muddy the water either. I do know that in some of the highest positions of vfds and the state there is some bickering, but they are not there when there is line to be put in. adftr
03/12	More news links concerning Memphis tragedy from various sources:  http://www.firehouse.com/  http://www.gomemphis.com/  http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?s=41549  http://www.gomemphis.com/capages/11shoonu.htm  http://www.gomemphis.com/capages/shoot/  http://www.wmcstations.com/  http://www.newschannel5.com/news/0003/10/memphis.html
03/12	Theres been some post about FS Firefighters and Fallen Firefighter memorials and I'd like to post somethings I've found. The Colorado Springs Memorial is an International Association of  FireFighters (IAFF) memorial to IAFF's fallen firefighters.  Any FS folks  who were IAFF members who died in the line of duty should be honored  there.  If you know of someone who was overlooked, please contact IAFF and  I'm sure they'll set it right. The National Fallen Firefighter Memorial at the National Fire Academy campus at Emmitsburg, Maryland, is for all Firefighters in the US.  Over  sites on that memorial should be addressed to the memorial site on the FEMA  website, or the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation at  firehero@erols.com Important info;  anyone who's been to California lately may have seen the  special Firefighter License Plates.  Well they've been setting $20.00 aside  from every original plate request and renewal for the California Fallen  Firefighter Memorial.  Along with a lot of other money raised through fund  raisers and donations this has allowed California's Firefighters to build a  memorial that will be larger than life statues of all types of firefighters on a marble stage with a memorial wall to be placed on the lawn infront of  the Capital.  The unveiling date is to be 12 October 2000.  This memorial is for ALL Firefighters who have died in the line of duty fighting fire in  California, no matter where they came from.  USFS R5 has been notified and  I believe may already have sent in all the names they know of but it  wouldn't hurt to send in anyone you know of.  They'll need a complete and  accurate spelling of the Firefighters name, when they died and what fire  were they on.  The accurate name is important as it will literally be  "ENGRAVED IN STONE"  Send the information to the CPF (California  Professional Firefighters Association) via their web site  http:\\www.cpf.org or to the California Fire Foundation at 925 L St., Suite  925, Sacramento CA 95814.  Attention Terry McHale Lets get our info in and assure our fallen brothers and sisters are honored. Be safe this season !!! Michael M.
03/12	Hey all: Just a quick question about mutual aid.  Does it seem to work well where you're at?  I've experienced a one-sided version of it where the FS will call out anything around, including CDF, BLM, BIA, and FS engines/resources wherever they are.  However, CDF tends to work on its own and does not even have other agency's resources in their dispatch system (or so it seems).  There have been instances where CDF will call an engine 10 miles away when another agency's resource is twice as close.   I'm sure the FS and other agencies do the same thing in different places, I'm not picking on our red-engined brethren (for a change, ha!).  How viable is it to get a true mutual aid system running?  It would be safest for the people we serve, and would end a lot of inter-agency political bickering.  I look forward to your thoughts. --Nor-cal Firedog
03/12	Ab et all... About Memphis: This is really really sad, I agree. I also find it really scary. Not more than four months ago I was writing a fictional peice for my writing class that had city firecrews respond to a fire call, and more than one fireman getting injured by a beserk man on the scene... this is really unsettling for me... needless to say I've since deleted any copies of that work and have to wonder sometimes if coincidence is, or if there's something out there.. I'm trying to tell myself it was only coincidence. Indeed I hadn't even turned in that work for an assignment... just of those things I suppose.  You requested links for news, MSNBC is typically good about that, and here are a few links to stories relating to the Memphis shooting incident:  http://www.msnbc.com/local/rtmem/2686.asp#BODY http://www.msnbc.com/local/kmtr/11213.asp http://www.msnbc.com/local/wsmv/26407.asp My thoughts are with the Memphis crews... and my deepest condolences. Tiny
03/11	Ab,  A Moment of silence for our fallen Brothers in Memphis, murdered yesterday arriving on the scene of a  structure fire. A moment for the Sheriff's Deputy murdered at the same location as well. They were all felled by  firefighter. A very sad day for us all.  Engineer Emmett  CDF I saw a spot on CNN today, but have no further links or information to distribute.  Readers please advise of any news links.  Ab.
03/11	to the individual about the dispatch ? as a pvt contractor we have both contracts and EERA's:  Unfortunately our 'Home Forest' doesn't use us.  I spoke with a zone fmo and he said that he just  tells dispatch what he needs, but the dispatchers never call.  I hope that this FMO and others realize that we are a viable resource to use on initial and extended attack,  campaign fires.  etc.  A lot of us private contractors are ex agency, we've trained side by side with you folks in the past.  And remember contractors can be requested by name.  It happens all the time in region 4.  lets see if R-5 can start the same policy.  Its bad when you have to get an order from another GACC other then you own to go to a fire in your home region. mike
03/11	Interesting room.  I work for the FS but am not in Fire.  I am a crew sup of a project crew that responds to fires on the district and as a single resource to larger fires.  I have worked in the FS for 12 seasons and enjoyed them immensely.  I enjoy going to and working on fires especially as a Unlimited faller.  This is very interesting to read others view points on all aspects of fire suppression and all around communication about the fire season as it progresses.  I'll be a frequent guest and contributor.  My wife said there should be a chat room for the spouses that are taking care of business back home while we are out enjoying ourselves with the job we love in gods country.  Its interesting to hear friends and acquaintances say how lucky I am to have a job working in the woods instead of being stuck in a office or factory job.  I know this job will not make me a rich man but I did not get into this line of work for the $. Its for the chance to gather a life experience few people want to or get the opportunity to pursue. Enjoy yourselves and don't forget to take a few minutes to look around and realize even in the most harsh conditions on the fireline there is still a nice view of nature and the surrounding mountains  that people pay big $ to enjoy on a vacation.      Later. (noname) Ya bring a lump to my throat and damn near tears to my eyes, noname.  With the many daily non-fire issues facing us today it's easy to lose sight of our primary goals in life.  I sometimes receive email accusing me of running a site for whiners and complainers.  I'll allow there may be a bit of that, but as I see it, it's insiders talking about inside issues they feel strongly about.  Since some posters waste little time considering the politically correctness of their messages, I can see where those who may be a few steps removed from the fireline or those whose pension is the highest priority in their lives might want to look elsewhere for discussion more in line with their comfort level.  Fine with me, to those I say, "go away"! Now, back to my point.  If an individual wants to see firsthand how some of these alleged whiners and complainers really feel about their jobs, just find a firefighter (any firefighter), engage them in conversation and throw in some personal attacks on their agencies or fellow firefighters.  I do not recommend this activity, nor will I be held responsible in any way for your physical well being.      God, I love the smell of retardent in the morning. . .Ab.
03/11	dayum...spent last week fightin fires and savin lives...now today had to chip the ice and snow of the smokey sign to put the low sign back in! ..grrrr pulaski
03/11	keith: MY heart is with you.  I've been there regarding brothers that you work with and ones that are related to you!  Hang in there my friend. go with your heart. mike
03/11	Just a note to inform the fire world, there is a new type 1 Hotshot crew in the Rocky Mountain Region called the Tatanka Hotshots.  Last year was their  first season, and they spent 73 days on fire assignments in Colorado,  Wyoming, Montana, and California.  They performed well enough to officially  achieve type 1 status in one year, so expect to see them around this season.    The crewbase is in Custer, South Dakota located in Black Hills National  Forest.  They also have a very interesting logo.                          Later-Ringo
03/11	To the Contractor who didn't sign his name..... I don't dispatch for a Forest office, but we do use contractors where I am from. To answer your question, we do not count of contractors to stay in our state and be held in reserve for covering our fires. When we assemble any kind of strike team, we try to ensure that at least one of our trucks is represented by a contractor to "share the wealth". I feel that we are the exception and not the rule. We rely on the contractors in all areas of firefighting be it, engines, aviation or personnel such as EMT's etc... If we don't utilize these resources we will lose all of our extra help when we need it. zoniespatcher I concur with your comments "zonie" and like to think my forest also takes good care (responsibly and fairly) of the several private resources we administer.  This is not to say there hasn't been occassional dissagreements, but by working by together, I feel we have an excellent working relationship.  I'm aware this is not always the case cause I was contacted more than once by others wanting to have us adminster them.  Their common complaint was their perception of being held in reserve.  I don't feel they were always correct, but sometimes it appeared so.  Ab.
03/11	Hats off to you Mellie, you have terrific insight.  Aside from funding,  politics, and interagency cooperation, the statement that bothers me most in the Jacobs report is when they talk about shortening the training ladder to  Command and General Staff positions.   Five years??  I just don't get it.  I wouldn't want to work for a Type 1 or 2 Incident Commander, or Planning Section Chief, or whatever, who has only five years fire experience, would  you?   Maybe I don't understand what they're driving at here but my recent  fire experiences,,,,,,, well, not just the most recent ones but a lot of my  fire experiences over the years indicate to me that it should take LONGER to  move through the system than it does today.  Something there just doesn't add  up. Tom
03/09	The Jacobs Report, where to begin- I commend the National Fire Management Review Team (NFMRT) for recognizing that there is a problem and that change is needed. I agree that change is needed.   However, from a scientific perspective, I am surprised that one more Pathway to the Future did not PRECEDE the three pathways that are discussed. Funding at 100% of MEL (Most Efficient Level) should be the ground zero from which to start assessing the need for radical change in the system that they propose. If we had 100 % of the funding necessary to run the fire program (instead of only 60% of MEL), many of the problems that the review team discusses would disappear. I propose that the FS hire the Brookings Institution to take the last 3 to 5 years of fire, resource, and cost data and submit it to analysis. If we had had 100% of MEL during those years, how many additional resources would have been available? Let them model what might have been the effects of those additional resources on fire suppression and fire suppression costs? Before proposing any other changes, we need to assess the implications of having 100% of MEL on resources, staffing and costs. Besides a system that is funded at MEL, I suggest that our modified system requires that the line officers, including the chief, regional foresters, forest supervisors and district rangers, need to have some experience in fire. It is imperative that the people controlling the purse strings make funding fire (including hazard identification, fuels management, the staffing of fire personnel in the summer, etc.) a priority. We have seen what happens on a forest when a forest supervisor does not support fire.  Fire management cannot be separated from land management as the NFMRT points out. Hopefully, the Laverty Report will expand on this. However, it may not be necessary to completely re-engineer the system to Pathway 3 to get the additional dollars (825 million?) for fuels treatment. Any new system will have at least some problems. They'll just be new problems. (Ab & BLM readers, didn't the BLM try some national team system in the 1970's with poor outcomes? I was a toddler and I don't rightly remember--<grin>--) One other problem is glossed over in the report. One strength of fire, as it is done today, is its multi-agency approach. Will this change? Where exactly do the BLM, NPS, and BIA really fit into Pathway 3? I'm not sure that we're at the Implementation Team stage yet.  So, is the WO really going to go for 100% of MEL as was reported to the R5 Division Chiefs or are they going to settle for 60% and a "new plan"? Let's all keep working and thinking on this. I am hopeful that solutions can be found. Mellie
03/09	Keith--a big hug for you and your family -->your pain is ours<-- FYI, when a person (even an EMT) is in great health and has a heart attack (silent ischemia), it's unlikely he would think "heart attack" first. It's not even on the radar screen. That's why this disease (that requires immediate action) is a major killer. Condolances to you and yours. I'm glad you had your brothers-at-arms with you.   Sign me "Every Firefighter"
03/09	My name is Charles Lehman, i'm a second year Fire science major at Lake Superior State University, in MI.  I'm looking for schools out in Eastern Virginia or north eastern noth carolina with fire science programs.  Actually anywhere in the vacinity of those states will do.  What i want to do in fight wild land fires, but i would like to have a degree in fire science so i have the option of indutrial fire fighting.  Could you please send me some information if you have any on schools that you might have.  I would greatly appreciate it.   My email address is mailto:paddleboat100@hotmail.com .
03/09	well when your so called home unit finds out he has no contracters because they have all gone out of biz .i hope they will think about it ..yes as a pvt contracter you do need and have to look for work all over to live all  year..the govt needs to use the contracters because in a few years the govt will have down sized so much that all he will have to fight his  fires...................slookout I know.  Ab
03/08	Hello, Just wanted to say that this is a great website.  I'm not a  firefighter myself, but I admire the heck out of you people.  You're  overworked and probably underpaid.       I don't know what that fella from Arizona was complaining about.  Seems  to me that nothing would make you forestry guys happier than lots of rain.  That keeps the fires from burning and you could spend more of the summer  doing fun things. (Like drinking)  because you wouldn't have to work a bunch  of overtime.        On another matter, I think the government should cover the entire  mountains with a massive sprinkler system.  I know it sounds like a lot of  money.  Initially it would cost a lot, But,  Once the system was in place, it  would pay for itself.                          -JAFO-  Well JAFO, I'll agree with liking the extra time off during the summer, but then we'd have to sell our houses come winter.  As for the sprinkler idea, might sell it to Washington, but not here.  Thanks for the post.  Ab.
03/08	Ab. & All:   I'm still looking for a source or any leads on the Texas wildland firefighter logo shown on the "logo" page.  Keith, if your out there, please help me out!  Thanks! Tate
03/08	Greetings Ab and all,   I want to voice a personal opinion on the principle of the honor guard.I don't intend to say anything about the Guard everyone here has been referring to because I have not had the oppurtunity to see them.   I have served on an honor detail for numerous Firefighter funerals because of both line of duty and natural causes.I consider it an honor and a privilege to do so.We did not do this for any religous or political objectives.   Forgive me if I have offended anyone but I had to say something.I buried my brother today who had also been an volunteer FF with us for about 8 years.I was felt a great sense of pride and respect for my brothers-at-arms that were there to share in my grief with me and my family.   Now to get off my soapbox,I'll close by telling you that my brother denied all of the warning signs that he was having a heart attack and it killed him.  He was 36 years old and in perfect health.  Also an EMT that knew all the signs.                            Stay safe and well,Keith
03/08	Ab  got some questions for the dispatchers out there. I was wondering that when there is a crunch on resources  Engines/ Hand crews/ etc.   And the dispatchers are having trouble filling orders.  Can they use Contract resources without ordering them from their home forest? The reason I ask is the fact that many forests use contractors as a kind of backup.  Which would be great if we got paid to do it.  But we arent.  They dont owe us a cent if we dont work.  I see a lot of contractors out there on the verge of going out of business because their home forest wont let the other dispatches know they have resources left. I have to call all over the place to get work, ad they are happy to hear we are available.  I hear comments like " your forest said they didnt have anything left",   "your forest said they need to hold YOU as backup" Just a thought.  Anyone out there got any ideas? You questions are ones I've heard before from other contractors and the answer is no, you can't freelance unless it's to an area and agency outside the influence of your contracting agency and you have an agreement with the agency you are responding to.  This is only how I understand it and I'm no contracting wizard.  And yes, I'm aware of the perception of some forests holding on to contractors "just in case"!  If you feel this has happened to you and you have a good arguement, contact your main contracting rep and let them know.  Don't worry about makng the dispatch office mad, they're already screwing you over.  What will they do?  Make you stay at home?  I sympathize with all resources who are held for the fire that never happens when the rest of the state is burning.  Ab.
03/08	LAST CALL!!!  To all folks that will be attending the retirement party for Mark Linane & the Los Padres Hot Shots 50 year reunion.  What we need from you:         -Are you having just dinner or dinner and breakfast?         -How many are in your party, if any?         -Do you plan on making a presentation?         -Do you need names of local hotels/motels? On Friday 3/17/00 will be an ice breaker, drinking beer and telling tall tales for those that are coming early.  There will be NO CATERED DINNER on Friday night, so bring yourself something to eat if your going to eat.  On Saturday 3/18/00 at 1200 we will have the LPHS reunion.  Dinner will be around 1600.  At about 1800 the retirement party for Supt will start. Unknown how long it will last.  After that the band will fire up.  Breakfast the following morning will be served at about 0900 for those able to consume food.  The location is Live Oak Campground, Highway 154 & San Marcos Golf Course.  Same place where we had the Marre & Ogylvie fire camps.  If you are attending and have not yet notified us please give us a call at the LPHS office.  If no answer please leave a message.  Right now we are looking at 400+ people that have confirmed.
03/07	Everyone, The Jacobs Report is out  http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml  If you want to print it and have difficulties, as I did, on 2 different computers (got printer error messages), try starting with page 3 (executive summary), printing through 20, skip 21 (which is numbered page 17) and print 22 through 31. 32 is a blank page. 1 and 2 are graphics or signed letters. 21 is also a signed letter. (PDF has some problems.) Good luck and happy reading! Mellie Thanks Mellie, I'm far from home this week and won't be able to check it out, will see what I can do to correct the problems you experienced this weekend.  Telecommunications are rudimentary at my location.  Meanwhile, I'd suggest all fire suppression folks read this document and try to determine what it might mean to each of you.  I'll be interested in hearing your reactions.  Ab.
03/07	Now up and running for your viewing pleasure (the Jacob's report)!  http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml
03/07	Alaska Helitack, The "new" style nomex pants you have been seeing have been around for a  while.  I have seen the structure folks wearing them for the past few years  as duty pants in some departments, blue in color.  I have seen a few catalogs  that carry structure stuff where the pants are listed, try Pacific Wildfire's  catalog.  It is my understanding that GSA is discontinuing the green nomex  and will only carry the new style as stocks run out.  One reason is that the  new pants are adjustable and one pair will fit two wast sizes and several leg  lengths.  GSA will have fewer items to stock.  Good Luck. WP
03/07	Mellie, Prescott has about 11" of snow. We got 2.75" of rain before it started snowing at the Mayer/Spring Valley Fire Station two days ago. It looked like we were about to start the fire season early this year, but as Mother Nature plays havoc with us, looks like the middle of April will start things off for us. I just wish that "winter" would come to us in November/December instead of March. Some of you probably remember last year that we were busting fires in March when we got slammed with 6 inches of snow on April Fools Day.  Looks like Florida is off to the races. Anyone out there on their way or on stand-by for Florida?? Chief Tim
03/07	ab. working on the company logo to get it sent to you! now seeing that we are all being light about last season heres a good one. we were supposed to help some crews put in indirect line at night.  never been scouted in daylight.  after some of us had crawled under,over and around brush (typical to the BigBar complex) it was finally decided that it wasnt a good idea to go there in the dark.  thank god they found the plantation they were looking for in the light.  but the funniest thing was, that after the fog rolled in that night.  They had decided to release all resources back to camp with the execption of 2 engines.  Mine and another PC's.  Our duty assignment was to perform a stationary patrol untill daylight. that was one of my funnest assignments. mike:)
03/07	March 17,18,19 will be the 50th reunion for the Los Padres/Prietos Hot Shots.  It is also doubling as a retirement party for Mark Linane "Supe".  Supe retired earlier this year after 38 years working on the Los Padres NF as a fire fighter.  Most of those years were as the Superintendent of the Los Padres Hot Shots.  The party will be at Live Oak campground in Lake Cachuma county park.  There will be a $25 charge.  There will be food, music, activities, awards etc.  R.S.V.P. at (805) 964-5369  If any old LP Shots didn't know, now you do, so be there!
03/07	thanks  eric  for the info on the foam unit   sorry about the spelling. see  you on the fire line..........slookout
03/07	RE: direct on the Big Bar: The lightning storm was August 23, and within days, about 300 fires were going on 19,000 acres. Five of those fires became the Big Bar, which was contained after 91 days at 140,907 acres.  The area had heavy fuel loading and blowdown, many snags, and steep and nasty terrain. Because of smoke inversions and the dangerous terrain, firefighter safety priorities often precluded the use of direct attack. Extremely dry conditions with high ERCs and heavy fuel loads resulted in extreme fire behavior, sometimes forcing firefighter retreats and changes in tactics. The complex -- in terms of priority for resources -- was ranked last out of eight fires in northern California. Because all but one of the Big Bar fires were within the Trinity Alps Wilderness, other fires in the state received higher rankings and therefore out-competed the Big Bar for resources.  By August 28, only eight of the 17 Type I crews ordered had arrived. During the first ten days, orders were placed for a total of 34 crews, and 16 of those orders went unfilled. In the last days of August, 20 type II crews were ordered; 10 of the crews arrived on the first of September.  Active uphill fire runs were noted on August 28, and a red flag watch was issued for high winds on the next day. By then the fires had grown to over 9000 acres. The Onion Fire had burned to within a mile of Hoboken, fuel moistures were extremely low, and other fires were moving in all directions. There were still no personnel available for the Megram Fire, which by September 3 was almost 400 acres. The Fawn Fire had burned to within a mile of heavy blowdown, and the Onion Fire was within a half mile of the Dailey subdivision. Smoke was settling over the area, and aircraft use was limited. Air ops were suspended on the Onion Fire on September 7 because of continued smoke inversions; more than 1100 people were now on the 17,542-acre complex. Heavy smoke inversions and hot and dry conditions continued, with active fire behavior; by September 17 the complex had grown to 42,436 acres.  Sure, direct is a good idea. Sure, it can be effective. But making the call to use indirect was a good idea, too, under the circumstances. That was not the only reason that the Big Bar was a huge and expensive fire -- and it won't be the last one, either. kelly.
03/07	Well put, Stihl. Very clear. We're pretty-much in the same place. --Mellie
03/06	To No Name @ Big Bar, Also Guessing that was your "no name" post on 3/4 to "RE: S.C." Direct is great & an obvious first choice whenever Wx & resource availability allow.  But it itsn't the ony tool in the toolbox, if it were we wouldn't carry fuesses, torches & ammo. KEY is ability to recognize best probability of success with available wx & resources. As there are only two recognized strategies, DIRECT & INDIRECT, it is of no suprise that most WFSA's (Wildland Fire Situation Analysis) select the combination direct/indirect alterantive for implementation.  I have implemented both with success & failure in both.  Hotline with hose or crew is a kick, but burning behind a cat or down a raod is also a kick. One could make the argument that South Canyon was the "Black", as even black is a shade of grey. I have a saying  and it goes like this: "It's OK to be lightning when your fighting, but it's not OK to be fighting when your lighting!" On the 10 & 18.  YOU CAN NOT VILOIATE or break the 18. They are "watchouts" not stop action.  Many occur on both Direct & Indirect; i.e wx getting hotter & drier; feel like taking a nap; making a frontal attack; country you haven't seen in daylight; yada, yada, yada. they should only be a key, and hopefully an instinctive key to an experienceed firefighter, (not something you need to take out your chiecklist for) that your decision making window is shrinking. to all, be careful out there! j
03/06	Well its a few weeks before NJ fire season startes but I think we are  getting an early start. NJ traditionally starts its fire season in April but  here it is March and we are already rolling. We have till March 15 to get  prescribed burns finished but the fire weather has been a little to good for  burning..
03/06	Hey Hickman (you Hillbillie, you)-- and all others who play the fire prediction game: I'm not playin' 'cause I want some REAL fire, but check out these sites (thanks to a *friend*) for some more grist for the prediction mill: http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/fm_10.gif http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/fd_class.gif http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/kbdi.gif http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/ltng_pi.gif http://www.nnic.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/regional_monitoring/palmer.gif Remember, you should also keep up with your local weather channel if you're serious about this. AZ looked like it would burn for sure last week when I was there. They even requested that we bring our own water when traveling up to Sabino Canyon outside of Tucson, because water was so low. Since then on the Weather Channel, I saw it was raining rattlesnakes and horneytoads there! Is that so? What's it like there in your necko-the-desert, Doc Moleskin and AZ Trailblazer? A little more damp, perhaps, or did it just all gully off? Let's see, you're northern AZ. What about more southern--hmmm VG, what's it like in Prescott? GA, what about Coronado? New Mexico crowd, seems you had rain, too. Wa'''Sup?   What a wonderful, crazy, laughin', huggin' crew that Region 3 fire group is!!! And ya'll send in some patches, while you're at it, ya'hear!!!! I want one othem with the antelope on it for sure! Hey Ab, maybe we should have a prediction prize? Whatcha think, readers? What would be good? (I'll help contribute to it!) Mellie
03/06	Great show on The Learning Channel last night called "Firefight: Stories from the frontline. Wildfires". It featured the Bear Divide Hotshots and also talked about smokejumpers, air support etc. No BS or glorifying, it said how it really is, long hours and hard work that most people can't do. If you get a chance check it out. Former R-3 Shot Great site Ab, even though I have been out of the business since my college days it nice to keep informed, you know how it is, once its in your blood.....
03/05	I was in attendance in reno too, "@"'s response to itorch was thoughtful and well done. Its hard to believe itorch was to blown of when the Honor Guard recognized the criticism to the whole w'shop. On one hand these issues should be addressed but, i'm unease whenever anyone is speaking for unknown individuals to add creditability to an their concern. I also don't like the idea that among firefighters there are those that are eager to make an issue out of an honor guard and the prayer. It seems alot of time is spent reacting to individual feelings. Maybe as the theme of the W'shop stated, lets stick to the basics. Cbork
03/05	Ok, here is my first post... To all of the BLM firefighters out there... I am a Forest Tech with the Alaska State Div of Forestry, and noticed a lot of Fed firefighters sporting these brand new "kaki" colored BDU style pants. All of the Alaska Shot crews and Alaska Jumpers had them, and I even worked with a guy from Carson City, NV who worked a few days in our area as a HECM who had a pair.... Now here is what I spent the winter doing.... I found out that National Firefighter Corp. has a pair that they just started making for the new 2000 GSA specs which is the "kaki" colored Nomex/Kevlar blend in a rip stop style of material, but they are not in the military BDU style, just the same as the others that they sell. I also found out that a company called Barrier Wear is apperently going to make a new line of pants some time in April, which will be the same as a military BDU but with the traditional spruce green nomex. What I am getting at with all of this is do any of you know any other vendors that may be selling this type of pants or can any of you Fed folks look in the inside flap of your new pants for a vendor name? Any help that you can give me on this subject would be GREATLY appreciated.... Thank you Alaska Helitack
03/05	Abandoning fire lines at night??? Hmmmm what a concept. I've never seen a "whole sale abandonment" in my 11 years on the shots. But we have left areas that were unsafe to be in, IE: fast moving rolling material or those highly exciting 40 foot long 48 inch DBH toboggans making thier presence known. Personaly I prefer the night firefighting. Its cooler, usually less intensity and the nasty burn shows are easier to hold. Granted there is no aircraft but who in thier right mind ties thier safe working to having an aircraft overhead. Night Op's will always be there, but if the risk is to high, it's time to monitor from a distance, or move to a secondary-line. I presume your one of the old dogs, buy some of the things you said. To many times I've heard in camp "I remember when". Those days are gone. The folks these days don't and shouldn't follow blindly. They are fire educated and hardworking(for the most part). I've seen to many times crews pulled off divisions because they said "NO". Hopefully your secure enough in your position you can accept the "No" even if it doesn't fit your plan. There is always another way. The fire just might get a little bigger.  Take care and give the ground pounders a break!  Sign me: Picky about staying safe!
03/05	The Brothers and Sisters of the United Yavapai Firefighters, Local 3066, the Mayer Fire District, and Omniflight Helicopter-Prescott Native 4 would like to congradulate Captain/Paramedic Tim Irwin for his recent promotion to District Assistant Fire Chief for the Mayer, Arizona Fire District.  We would alson like to congradulate Kent Courtney, former fire chief of the Montezuma-Rim Rock, Arizona Fire District, for his appointment to District Fire Chief of the Mayer, Arizona Fire District. Hope to see you all out on the "big" fires this year!! the local 3066 VP
03/05	Mellie: Help me understand. I have taken an interest in this thread because I think the honor guard is a good idea and MissSZQ, Hellitorch and yourself all seem to agree on that premise. You agree with hellitorch’s first point. On the second point, it sounds like you agree with the what - (Denominational vs. non.) It sounds like you are still struggling with the where/when (funeral vs other venues.) You called hellitorch’s third point, a “LOW SHOT” because of the accusation of HONOR GUARD MEMBERS  AND THEIR SUPPORTERS of blind PRIDE and then go on to ask, “blinding PRIDE in what?” MissSZQ was the one to say, “I am proud to be a part of this.” I think I can understand how hellitorch would think the level of pride has blinded those close to this program. First his questions were not answered at the division chief meeting. Then you suggest that it was how he/she asked the question. Anybody who has been in this business for very long has been touched by the loss of a fire fighter, who was their friend. Unfortunately it looks like the honor guard subject has evoked an emotional response for a program that must be objectively planned and managed to achieve a desired outcome, much the same as any other program we run. If the desired outcome is to alienate the minority of non-christians in the FS, then the honor guard and chaplain should change nothing. It desired outcome is to build consensus and support for this program then I think there may be something to hellitorch’s points. It looks like everyone is in agreement that we should have an honor guard. The only question that remains is what venue is appropriate for denomination vs non. Personally, I am inclined to agree with hellitorch on this one. Any venue honoring a firefighter where the family is present and they would like this type of service, is okay with me. Any venue with multiple families present, the ceremony should be more non-denominational or should be a moment of silence in a memorial service as you suggested. I think any other venue should also should be non denominational or should be a moment of silence. Stihl on the fence
03/05	Hi AB,      After looking at how people discussed how last summer's fire season went, I found some old Incident Base Situations that shout "Watch Out" that came out some time ago. We all might learn something from them: 1.  You're dozing at your desk in the middle of the day. 2.  You're on the downhill side of the organization where rolling material can dump on you. 3.  You're downwind of the Xerox machine when it is turned on. 4.  You cannot see the main fire and you're not in touch with anyone who cares. 5.  You're at a planning meeting and you feel the wind blow or change direction. 6.  You're in an area where you are unfamiliar with local customs influencing social behavior. 7.  You're in a local bar which you have not seen at night. 8.  You are getting frequent hot spots on your butt. 9.  You feel your boss getting hotter and hotter. 10. You notice long lines at the restrooms after a meal. 11. You are in a boring area that makes demob difficult, if not impossible. 12. You feel like taking a nap in the chow line. 13. You have been given an assignment or instructions you don't like. MOC4546
03/05	One new photo on Fire2 page and one on Air2.  Ab.
03/04	This is my first post to They Said, although I've been reading it with great  interest for about 6 months.  I think it's great that there is a place for  firefighters to express themselves.  This is a freedom afforded to us because  of the country we live in.  We also have the freedom of choice. With that in mind, I want to tell HELLitorch, I know most of the members of  the Honor Guard.  I also know a Captain on the Angeles who has been allowed  to serve as a Chaplain if his services are requested. Both the Honor Guard  and Chaplain have had to serve in this capacity TOO MANY times in our recent  past and deserve to be congratulated for taking on these "extra" duties. The Forest Service is finally getting recognized for honoring our fallen  firefighters just like other fire departments do for their firefighters.  We  may not have control over our pay, but someone took the initiative to get the  Honor Guard started, and I personally respect them for doing that. As an American you have the freedom of choice.  If you don't like the Honor  Guard, don't go to any more memorial services.  If you DO choose to go to  (heaven forbid) any more memorial services, then take PRIDE in the fact that we can now honor our fallen firefighters as they should have always been  honored, and quit criticizing. Better yet, why don't you JOIN the Honor Guard, that way we'll have someone  who can meet all the other religious needs you seem to be concerned about. "@" P.S.  Mellie, I'm one of the women reading, and now posting, to this site.  We are definitely out here!
03/04	RE:  S.C.     The black is one of the best safety zones around.  Any action should be scouted before sending people into a dangerous situation.  That is what air attack (visability permitting) and experienced supervisors are for.  Can anyone tell me how many 10s and 18s would have been broken by going direct.  If possible, I cant think of a better tactic of wildland fire suppression than direct line construction.  Hard work, yes, but going direct gets results. Maybe I can be enlightened, if anyone knows anything that works better let me know.  That is what this forum is all about, right. Right!  Ab.
03/04	for the fella looking for the "Rowbon"  proportioner.  I hope your referring to the Robwen Series of Proportioners.    We bought three odel  500 A proportioners in 97.  They are an excellent,  well built machined, tool.  It is obvious that they put a lot of design into it.   We upgraded them in 98 with the addition of their Stainless control panel.   Wwe bought ours directly from Robwen. They consist of three main parts  A control panel, that controls the flow of foam and percent, a differential mixer type thing.  (this is where the foam is  mixed and is plumbed inline after the pump)  and a foam tank that contains a bladder inside.  This is where the foam concentrate is kept.  The pump pressure surrounds the bladder thereby equalizing pressure in the foam. The control panel then proportions the amount of foam injected Very accurately mind you, into the stream.  It is then mixed in the inline chamber, and sent on its way. In operation it is very clean, easy to use, and reliable.   My only beef was the Schematic didnt really match up to the new panel exactly.  Anyways email me, and ill send you our operation manual. eric PW  pacificrimwildfire@email.msn.com later
03/04	You posted the forest service reports, but to get the most up to date statistics.  You might want to check NIFC's page,  http://www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/nfnmap.html even though they are only updating situation report weekly until fire season starts, this page give you an idea of where we are in the year compaired to the last 5 years. Hickman Actually, the first link on the page I mentioned earlier is to NIFC's daily fire report which is being updated daily.  The report you mention above is a synopsis of the main daily report.  Ab.
03/03	HelliTORCH, If you had stopped at your first point, I would have agreed completely with you. I understand that your cause in this "thread" on They Said is to illuminate the perspective of the minority religion (or non-religion) to the majority who is Christian. Your comments have brought greater clarity to the function of Honor Guard and Chaplain and the need to continue to make those functions clear as acceptance is sought for each of the two groups in various venues. Regarding point 2, I'm not sure that prayer should only be reserved for a funeral, but PERHAPS prayer should be more non-denominational or should be a moment of silence in a memorial service. Read on. I feel that your point 3 is a LOW SHOT. In this you accuse HONOR GUARD MEMBERS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS of blinding PRIDE (one of the 7 deadly sins, no less!). Let me ask, blinding PRIDE in what? An overwhelming majority of us who attended the memorial service supported it and the Honor Guard. This was evidenced by the unanimous (or almost unanimous?) show of hands when we were asked, on two separate occasions, whether we supported it. (I can't remember anyone raising his or her hand in opposition. Did you?) Most attendees of the Division Chief's Meeting were there. Were we all blindingly prideful? We WERE touched by the sense of family and felt good about that. Do you think PRIDE is why we attended or stayed? Do you think that PRIDE blinded all of us to the potential problem that a Christian prayer might cause? I think not. I don't think you can possibly know what motivates more that a hundred people, or even the 20 or so people in the Honor Guard. It isn't the same thing for any two people. I came because I had lost a friend, Karen Savage in a senseless accident in the Jones Fire. (Check out the Denny Road memorial sign on the miscellaneous photos page.) Her funeral was held while the Megram was still burning. I didn't get to go. The Honor Guard Service meant a lot to me. I felt the LOVE of members of the group in the room for each other and the acknowledgment that some brothers and sisters were gone and that we needed to say thanks and acknowledge that their lives had enriched our lives. Afterwards I had the sense that to fail to acknowledge and appreciate our fallen comrades is a kind of abandonment of them and of ourselves. And firefighters do not abandon their fellows. Nor would we want to be abandoned if the tables were turned. I do admit that I was caught off guard by the "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" part of the prayer. I am a practicing Buddhist in my daily meditations (all 4 to 6 miles per day) as well as coming from a Judeo-Christian background. But, when I looked at my feelings and those of the participants at that moment, I recognized the LOVE in the heart of the Chaplin and the LOVE from the Honor Guard and the LOVE all around me. Karen was a Baptist. The Christian turn of phrase would have suited her just fine. (In the Buddhist tradition, I noted my fleeting discomfort, noted the LOVE, and put my attention on the present unfolding action of the Chaplin, who was ringing the bell in the integrity of the moment.) After the service, the Honor Guard, standing outside, openly explained to me the differing functions of the Honor Guard and the Chaplain. Interesting that you felt "blown off" when you asked. (Perhaps it was, in part, in how you asked.) Again, HELLitorch let me say that I understand your cause and appreciate it. I commend you for raising the issue and continuing to push the dialog. In the overall scheme of things, we would all know less had you not spoken up.  Thank you Honor Guard. Thank you Chaplain. Thanks to those who are gone but live in our memories and thank you, Brothers and Sisters, for not abandoning each other. Mellie PS Hey, Joe, I want a HELLITORCH. The drip torch you gave me is good but I want a bigger fire!
03/03	so folks whats burning so far this year ..and where will it hit hard .does  anyone have the stats on them ..also i am looking for info  on the rowbon  foam unit .does any one know where i can get a book on it  thanks  fire doc You can find fire information reports here:  http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/reports.shtml.  Ab.
03/03	AHHH...lake states checking in with the first fires of the year for us....its nice to be back in the saddle...and we typically have at least a foot or two of snow on the ground yet at this time. Temps have been stedily well above average and precip well below normal since last fall. pulaski
03/03	Doorsmaurer, thanks for the information.  While the IAFF might be a good organization, I think that it is inappropriate for taxpayers to financially support a union only memorial.  What makes it somewhat ironic is that in El Paso County (where Colorado Springs is located) there are federal firefighters that are with the Air Force Academy FD, NORAD Air Force Base FD, Falcon AFB FD, Peterson AFB FD, Fort Carson FD, a FS helitack crew, and a FS hotshot crew.  There are numerous professional firefighters who, through their tax dollars, support the IAFF memorial, but would not even get a sticky note with their name on it if they were killed in the line of duty.  It sounds as if they do things better in Maryland. Would love to go back east and check out the sites, Gettysburg would be fasinating.  Thanks, 6
03/03	fire season is getting underway here in the southeast. we have been pushing pretty hard on hazard reduction burning the last few weeks.in fact we've got a couple of helicopter burns lined up for next week. but we ran a 100 acre wildfire yesterday that would have gone to 1,000 if the head hadn't run into a wet pasture. as it was we caught it with 2 tractor plows, burning in a 10 year old pine plantation. Looks like it may be time to stop lighting and start fighting. take care and come see us..................speedo
03/03	For Bob Alvord, I think that the distibutor you are looking for is now called Copart, located in Columbia, SC.  Call them at 1-800-774-3002 for a catlaog and price list. They carry a wide variety of t-card accessories, and they have had a quick turn-around on orders that I've placed with them. Houston
03/02	MissSZQ, Don't get me wrong. I support the HG concept. I admire and respect your dedication to a program that will honor fallen firefighters. My only points, are these:  1) The honor guard is a new program trying to gain agency support. The kind of support you need for this program to survive and gain acceptance will not occur if future demos do not adequately explain the HG vs.  chaplain relationship.  You are the first HG member or “they said” contributor to do this. 2)The use of a the Chaplain function for the Reno demo was inappropriate and should be reserved for funerals only where those services are requested. 3) I believe that because of the level of pride (one of the seven deadly sins) that you; other HG members; and HG supporters demonstrate has blinded you from even seeing this as a potential problem.  You said in your post, “Understand that when we are requested, we don't  go in with our own agenda, we do what is asked.” While you may have no agenda, I suspect that others in the group do. I base this on HG member responses to questions I asked in Reno. I was basically blown off. They were either unwilling to discuss it in depth or unable to recognize my concerns. Whether the HG program is a good idea or not - it must do several things if it's going to work.  The Honor Guard must Reevaluate it's marketing strategy and make appropriate changes to better inform it's target group about the HG and the Chaplain relationship. If denominational options are available, the HG program needs do a better job to inform their target group. This is especially true in the case of a demo such as the one in Reno. Lastly, the Chaplain function should only be activated when appropriate.  While I seem to be alone on this forum, I assure you I am not. I have served as witness to several side-bar conversations and received numerous correspondence addressing the same concerns that I have. The Honor Guard's worst enemy is not me however - it's themselves. HELLitorch
03/02	For all you trying to find jobs, many of the federal agencies (mine included - BLM) hire from the local job service center.  All you need to do is send your application to the job service center in the town your interested in and indicate you are interest in wildland fire.  The addresses for many job service centers can be found on the internet.  Remember on you application to be neat and include as much detail as possible about your work experience...it all counts. Red
03/02	Ab, here's some right info for Terratorch and Helitorch People:     Let's cut to the chase with gel, terra torch, and helitorch info.     Fire Con Mfg is the primary manufacturer of the majority of terratorches in existence.  We have manufacturred the terra torch since 1986 according to BIFC standards.  We have ATV sized terratorches to as big as you want!  (We're working on a backpack model.)  If your terra torch or batch mixer was purchased directly from Fire Con or Simplex it was made by Fire Con at Ontario, Oregon (45 minutes from Boise).  Fire Con products are no longer distributed by Simplex.      Our terra torches and batch mixers meet and exceed all DOT/USFS requirements.  We offer retrofitting for preexisting units to get legal.  Contact us directly at 541 889 8630 or firecon@micron.net.  Within a week you will also be able to access information and technical support at www.terratorch.com and www.helitorch.com.      Fire Con has recently joined forces with Fire Spec Ltd, now our aerial ignition division and the manufacturer of the only DOT/USFS approved helitorch and gel mixing system.  Our Spec 2000 helitorch and the Spec 2000 mobile modular mixing and transfer system have been designed from the ground up in consultation with the most experienced agency personnel to meet and exceed requirements of the Missoula Technical Development Center and USFS Helicopter Operations.  We have approved retrofit kits to get your existing helitorches legal.     This UN/DOT/OSHA/EPA/Agency stuff is a can of worms.  We have the solutions!     We are fire people dedicated to serving you and your agency with highest quality equipment and supplies, service, training, and technical guidance.  We are available 24 hours a day.     There are a lot of misconceptions and errors being made with gel mixing, gel recipes, certain product use, and ignition operations.  We have over twenty years of experience with the art and will share our expertise with you at any time.  Contact us with your questions!  We have the answers (almost all learned at the school of hard knocks).     We need to have safe, effective, doable operations to get the job done and make sure everyone comes home!     If you have any ideas on new products or how we can improve equipment or operations please contact us.  We depend on you, the user's in the field for the right kind of thinking.     We will provide further information here at "They Said", stay tuned.     FireCon Don't worry folks, I haven't changed my policy on commercials.  I allowed this one through due to the high interest in the current thread.  Ab.
03/02	ab: we buy the surplus naplam from the army it has the best consistancy to work with all types of torches, you have different types of tips you use either on the helitorch or terra you don't have the right consistancy you are just wasting fuel.             mp
03/02	Hola Ab Could you post the following for me. I'm trying to locate a source for a resource locator that comes in a folder size, plastic with card slots that takes a smaller sized tee card. These were distributed at one time by a company called Gillotte(sp) somewhere in the Southern U.S. These folders had pins between the section to allow extra panels to be added for tracking additional resources. Any info would be appreciated Bob Alvord
03/02	I'm trying to find a job on an engine crew this summer, the location doesn't matter. I've applied to a few places but haven't heard anything. I have my red card and was on an "on call" type 2 crew. If you have any suggestions or comments that would be great. Chad OK, that's it!  This is REALLY the last "how do I get a job" message I'll post publicly.  I do this last one as a courtesy to the private contractors looking for employees.  If you are interested, I will create a template containing each contractors name/address/email/phone information and use it to respond to this type of message.  I can also forward the messages to each contractor if they wish.  If you desire this service, you must reply stating such (even though I may already have your business posted on the link page).  Ab.
03/01	clarification of torch procedures we use.   I wasnt clear enough.   First about the Gelling agent turning hard.   I was refering to the winter storage of the set up.  as in real long term.  it has been my experience with Aluma gel  that it gels like it should,  then thins out,  then the whole mess will evaporate precipitating the unspent powder.   That was with our older system.  As it was not air tight.  I havent  left any residue in the new system.  so i couldnt tell you on that one.  But, i know that it is airtight.    AS for DOT and OSHA.  WA dot looked at ours.  said it met their approval.  90 gal  was just under the 100 gallon bulk transport laws.  I called OSHA to inspect ours.   they have yet to get back to me. As for Diesel affecting volatility.  true it will reduce it.  But that is what the gelling agent is supposed to do.  Diesel counteracts the gelling agent  with gas.   The distributor of Sure Fire told me that.  I have also experienced it in the field.  It is no big deal unless your trying to make a tank last all day.  you just have to watch the mix, and add more powder as necessary.   Also you have to mix according to temperature.  Watch out. Mix in the morning, it will thin out by afternoon,   or thicken up into the night. We have always used hot water  and a little soap to clean our system for storage.  Ive had no problems so far.  never tried anything else though. heres the number for our sure fire distributor.  He buys the 50 pound bags and will repackage down to as small as 1 lb.  about 9.00 per pound at that size.   or 50 lbs were about 284 last season. remember this stuff is a desicant,  keep wrapped up, and away from free moving air.  as it will cake up.  if i remember right it takes about 4-5 lbs Sure fire to 50 gal fuel, at 60degrees.  less if its warmer.   his number is 800 321 1037  (gary) havent talked to him since last september  worked then. Aluma Gel is no longer used.  It is to environmentally unfriendly.  Anyways, thats about all i got to say about that   <<<<-----  forest gump imitation later eric PW yes there is a Red carded position TTOP  terra torch operator
03/01	Hellitorch, I am a member of the Honor Guard.  I am a Christian as some of  the members are, I couldn't tell you what religion the others are because the  Honor Guard is not about religion.  We are about family, even though the FS  at times seems to loose the "family" feeling that I and many others of us  love about the FS, we are still family.  I am proud to be a part of this  group.  I am honored each and every time we are able to assist family and  friends in saying good bye to a loved one, or do a flag dedication in 100  degree weather,  or stand at attention in front of the toughest group in the  FS, Fire and Aviation Managers.  You need to understand that there are two  separate groups trying to get their programs accepted.  The Honor Guard and  the Chaplains.  Each of the groups have separate SOP's that are currently in  draft form.  We (the Honor Guard), had our brochure and SOP's available at  the workshop.  The workshop was the ultimate opportunity  to show what we are  all about.  Understand that HG and the Chaplains work hand in hand when doing  memorial services/dedications or funcitons where both groups are requested.  When asked to do the workshop, we all worked together to get the presentation  perfect.  The HG's function was to present the colors, the Chaplains function  was the verbal presentations and the final call.  The chaplain that spoke,  spoke from his heart.  His intentions were not to offend or convert anyone.  Both the HG and Chaplains understand that there are a variety of religions  out there and we are here to provide a service for all.  What we can't do,  we'll find someone who can.  Understand that when we are requested, we don't  go in with our own agenda, we do what is asked.  If you have any questions on  the Chaplains and how they have assisted FS families in times of loss,  contact FAM on the Angeles, Lassen or Stanislaus NF.    MissSZQ
03/01	We have purchased our surefire from a company in orland CA (I believe) they also made the terra torch we use. Not sure if they are still around though as I havent had any contact with them for at least 2 years. I will try to double check post their name and contact info to eric @ pacificrimwildfire: yes, I have found that too much diesel well make the thickening process take longer or you will need more surefire. However I still add about 15% diesel to the mix on the theory that it helps keep the volitility of the mix down, dont know if it actually does that but that what I was told by the manufacturer and I have never had any problems if I keep the percentage in the 15% range of the total mix.  Temperature will also make a difference..the colder the longer it will take to thicken.  The surprising item in your list though is the filling with water and dish soap to rinse and the surefire turning to a thick paste.  I have never had a problem with this. I was told by the manufacturer and since proved to myself that if you have an air tight seal any residue gell in the tank and lines turns back to liquid in a few days.  Also that any moisture in the system causes havoc with the thickening process. Again the manufacturer advised me to always flush the system with a little fuel prior to use  after a long period of the unit sitting. Again I have found this to be true.  When I do not flush,  just the bit of condensation or moisture in the tank makes it difficult to get it to gel.  The same problem goes with trying to use old mixed fuel (chainsaw or portable pump fuel) same problem, it wont gell worh a damn.  One problem I have had is when trying to add more gel after you have already added you initial amount...BIG PROBLEMS! as the added powder just clumps up in balls with a gooey exterior and a dry center. What a pain!  You can easily add more fuel if it is too thick, but I have found it difficult to try to add more powder to make it thicker.
03/01	Firehorse:  thanks for the input.  I'm no longer a fs employee. im now in the private sector.  where can I get this info now? thanks   Mike:) who is the mfg of sure fire?
03/01	RE: terratorch info, problems have been found in recent assessments of aerial/ground ignition systems and fuel transport/container systems. None of the ground firing systems that were assessed met all of the OSHA and DOT regulations. More info is on the USFS R5 fire page at www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire. To Dudnick and other wannabes, check out the links there for fire jobs info. -- kelly
03/01	Eric: I got your message and have emailed you, once again thanks for your help.  You too AB for doing all this for us. Mike:)
03/01	For the person interested in the Tertaorch info:  If you are Forest Service, double check with your Forest Safety person on use of Alumagel vs SureFire.  Alumagel was outlawed 2-3 years ago and the only approved gas thickener at that time was SureFire. Firehorse
03/01	Notice:  The February message board has been archived here Feb-00.  The last week or so messages will be kept on this page for a while to continue the current threads.  Rather than have the Archives listings at the bottom of each "They Said" page (and trying to update them each month), there is now a separate page to access the old "they said" pages.  The main link to the archives will be at the top of this page immediately before the messages.  Thanks all who have contributed to this month's discussions, the quality and quantity of your posts are easily the best yet! New logo from Cherryvale Fire on the Logo Page.  Ab.
03/01	for the firefighter looking for Terra Torch info. We currently have three torches in our inventory.   The first is a 3 hp, gas thing we bought used.  The other two were built last fall to do a prescribed burn that lost funding. After thousands invested researching, and building this is what we came up with Our ideal torch.  (what we built) 13 HP honda w/ electric start.   The best tank to use is round as this facilitates the circulation of the gel.  I fabricated three recirc valves, one top, one middle and one bottom.  All angled at 60 degrees to swirl the gel, and to keep agitated.  All plumbing is camlocked into place, with handles wired down to prevent accidental opening  (pretty unlikely but cheap and easy to do).    We used an explosion proof reel sold by grainger for the handling of fuel and flammables.    We loaded the reel with 250'  7/8"  hose.   Here comes the part youll have to fabricate.     We used to use pressure washing gear as nozzles and triggers.  as this is what came with our first one.  Problem is you cant get enough flow.  So with a little research we went with Steam cleaning wands used to prep oil tankers for repainting.   They have a minimum of 5/8"  waterway through the valve.  they are also rated for high pressure 800+  (not that ill ever pump aluma gel that high).    we then attached a self igniting low pressure propane torch nozzle to the tip so the flame blows across the end at about 45 degrees.  Plumb a hard extension line so the little propane cylinder is back by the handle.  and use the low pressure variety.  dont forget the check valves!  important!!!   do it yourself and skid mount it  for about 4200 in parts new,   or buy from the fella in central OR  for about 14000. same set up basically.  he uses a Briggs, and cheaper components      Mix the Aluma gel, or Sure Fire  by the factorys recommendations.  We installed an explosion proof (sparkless) air motor with a mixing paddle permanently installed inside the tank.  hit this to mix it first, then the recirc lines can do the rest.  Dont try to mix it like drip torch fuel.  Use straight gas.  The diesel will cause clumps that mess everything up.  Our friends at Santa Barbara County told me that.  I tried it my way, and although it works,  it is inconsistent.  give it time to gel.   When done fill completely with water and a little dish soap.  Let it recirc for ten minutes, to rinse all the lines out.   fill with plain water and drain again.  dont do this, and youll se why we put camlocks  on the joints! Aluma gel, and Sure fire turns to hard dried toothpaste  like stuff, that eats everything and plugs lines like clay. As for operation practice before your needed.  be confident and be aware of what your doing.    The above torch at max pressure  will shoot a flame a little over a 110 feet.  pretty impressive.   unfortunately ive only put about 5 hours on this one.  (for sale by the way)  email  me and ill fax/mail you our design.  and the research i dug up. later and have a good one eric pacific wildfire.com pacificrimwildfire@email.msn.com    Long one huh?
03/01	To Dana Linscott,     Dana sounds like your organization is doing good work, have you looked into what the FWFSA is doing? Have a look at the web site (see Links page) and maybe make contact. The Association has strong support in Washington from the Senate and House as well as the IAFF. Tonka