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03/31	Ab, Concerning "Just One More Time": glad I did not put anything in there that I did not want my wife to see.  Was reading her your comments on the bottom of the message where you choked up and she asked what it was all about so I brought up the Just One More Times that I sent you and she now wants a copy of them to keep.  <Up on the soapbox>  To those of you that are still facing the dragon or who are just starting in the wildland fire business.  Over 30 years in the business I have been everything from a Grunt to Smokejumper to Dispatcher to AFMO to Div Sup on a team, so feel somewhat qualified to offer the following advice. DO NOT FORGET THE PEOPLE BACK HOME WHILE YOU ARE GONE AND TREAT THEM SPECIAL WHEN YOU GET BACK!  I had a good wife that realized fire was my mistress and something I needed in my life.  I was one of those that believed you took no time off during the summer and the job came first.  Did not realize how wrong this attitude was till I went to a retirement party and the guy broke down, cried and asked his family to forgive him for never spending anytime in the summer with them.  That was in 1990 and I have scheduled time off each summer since.  You may think you are indispensable to the organization; but, believe me you are not!  No, I don't care what your position or title is either!   If you have a serious illness and the Doc tells you to stay away from work for 2 weeks, the outfit will still be functioning when you get back, right?  So what is a long weekend or even a week with your family going to do?  Betcha not much.  The old argument "We need the money" is darn weak at best.  I know because it sounded weak everytime I used it to justify not going on family weekends at the coast or to family reunions.  The time and money you spend on your family that week/weekend will pay dividends you may not see for years to come; but, it will be better than any money you may have in the bank during the same timeframe.  If you have people working for you and you think they should not have timeoff during fire season, you need to seriously rethink your management methods.  Having them tell you in May they want to take the family somewhere in August is acceptable believe it or not.  (They also need to understand, should you be in the middle of a lightning bust things may have be put on hold.  If you have good people that respect you and trust your judgment, you won't have to say anything about sticking around.)  Over the years I have seen alot of marriages/families break up because, in most cases, the guy did not give his family a little time in the summer or acknowledge the sacrifices made by those left at home.  When you are on fire the significant other is still home taking care of business and keeping the ship afloat.  One thing we always did at the end of fire season was find a babysitter, take a long weekend and go to some expensive, exotic (translated: somewhere we had never been before) place and enjoy each others uninterrupted company.  (You made all that OT now spend some of it wisely!)   When someone is killed or gets burned over and it is all over the news, sit down with the spouse and kids and explain to them what happened and what you will do to try and keep it from happening to you.  If you think because they do not ask that they do not worry or have questions, you need to get your head out of the smoke & heat and come back to the real world.  My wife and daughter never asked much about what went on when I was fighting fire; but, that all changed on July 6, 1994.  I spent alot of time answering questions about the news coverage and what I was doing to ensure it would not happen to me or anyone under me.  If you feel you may be one of those that is putting family on the backburner as mentioned above, I write this not to condemn you; but, to try to get you to open your eyes.  Eventually you will be out of the fire business, but your family will always be there unless you drive them away before you retire.  <Off the soapbox>  Had a unique opportunity in '94 to have my family visit a fire camp I was in.  Answered alot of their questions and let them see how Dad lived when he was gone from home.  It was a real eye opener for them.  Try it if you get the chance.  Firehorse
03/31	Ab, I am very pleased as you should be, to see the old fire dogs adding to my  original post of One More Time.....  A person doesn't really know what the  outcomes of his/her writings will be until much later, and that is the fun  part of life.  It has been said "Don't test the depth of the water by using  both feet," but if that were the case in life nothing new would be attempted.   Your web site is such a great place to go and share thoughts, feelings,  gripes, successes, and failures in the wildland fire service. Pulaski, Firehorse, and Hickman, I too remember the fire service before there were Strike Team Leaders, and  dispatch tones.  I can remember when every fireman (today we are  firefighters) could be a fire boss, fire engines were called Trucks, water  tenders were called Tankers, and dispatchers were firemen too.  Fires were  often reported by way of a local rancher running in and yelling that there  was a fire on his ranch.  Offduty firemen were alerted of the fire by an air  horn on the repair shop, the second truck on the fire was always manned  (staffed now) by volunteers who knew as much about firefighting as the  regulars, and they didn't need to be baby-sat on either.  We all worked on  the fire until it was out because there wasn't anyone to relieve us.  Our  families brought us food and a change of underwear, if they could find us,  and they answered the phones and dispatched for us while we were out.  We all  carried hand tools and were jack of all trades on the fire.  We didn't have  to pay for the water we used to put out the fire either (can you believe now  they bill us for putting out a fire on their property that they started?).  I  remember the first air drop on my first brush fire.  It came from a WW II  B-17 flying at around 65 knots, and up-slop!  The mud was called Bentenite  and I believe it was a by product of Twenty Mule Team Borax.  It sterilized  the soil for a few years after the fire.  And we all fought fire better then  than we do now. To those in the Federal Fire Service,  Get deeply involved in your Association, http://www.fwfsa.org/.    You are such good firefighters, but you are beating yourselves up  and/or leaving the service too soon for a better pay, or you are having to  retire too young, and you are not being compensated for it.  You owe it to  your families to get the best pay and working conditions you can.  You owe it  to the young ones coming up behind you who just want to belong to the best  occupation in the world.  Keep this thought in mind, "Your employer is only  renting your services, and if they can keep the rent down, don't you think  they will"? Stay safe and enjoy each day on the line is if it were your last fire, stay  in touch with the friends, love a little, laugh a lot, and live life to its  fullest. Hunter '45
03/31	Gotta do this...in thinking back to my trips both east and west... One more time..  ..of waking up on a cool Idaho morning to the sound of an elks bugling and not being able to see 50 feet due to the inversion layer. ..of sitting on the side of a mountain at 8000 feet watching the colors of an Idaho sunset against giant column of smoke. ..of looking into a valley of blackend ash on an evening bus ride out and seeing the sparkling of hot embers looking like minature cities from above the earth. ..of walking across an ice cold mountain stream in bare feet after working on Division J all day in the hot California sun. ..in walking through burnt over sand in Florida in bare feet. ..in waking up to the sound of an Officer in the Army yelling at his troops to get their 'La-Z asses out of the sack' ..in listening an Indian Hot Shot Crew do their Native Chants to their Gods at the end of a fire. ..sitting around an open fire pit with a group of fellow fire fighters and feeling more warmth than heat from the fire. ..and last, but no means least...Sitting watching in Awe at the awesome power produced by a fire running up the side of a 8000 foot mountain and realizing how large an effort it is for man to slow it and how small an effort it would be for God to slow it with a small shower. Hickman
03/31	Ab, When I first saw the logo for the Fed. wildland union I thought I was at the IAFF union page! It looks remarkably like our national union logo, the International Association of Firefighters. It's about time someone gets you folks organized, when CDF affiliated with the national union, good things began happening for us i.e.: shorter work weeks, better pay and retirement etc. Our employees association was good, but with added muscle got better. If the Fed. wildland folks can get organized , there is no telling what can happen for you.I'll be interested to see how things go! By the way, CDF's latest controversy, is a uniform change. Yes, after these many years, the familiar green pants and tan shirts are going away in favor of , (are you ready?) Navy Blue! Yes that's right, we are joining the ranks of every other fire dept. in the country. Who got this for us, you might ask? Why, the union of course. Look for our new fashion statement at a wildland fire near you . Engineer Emmett CDF Not too surprisingly the FWFSA is affiliated with the IAFF, although the FWFSA is an association, not a union.  You're also right on regarding CDF and the benefits they've gained.  I worked for them prior to their getting organized and remember those meager days.  Ab.
03/30	just one more time...Id like to step onto the crew bus (or crew carrier nowadays) and smell  the sweet mixture of sweat and smoke. ...stagger into camp still hot, sweaty and tired, reach down into the drink tub, grab a ice cold milk and chug it down without takin a breath (and wishin it was a brewski). ...hear the friendly banter in the bus on the way back from a grueling shift slowly settle down to quiet snoring. ...pitch one more FNG into the fold-a-tank. ...make that trip with the entire crew down to the bar after slammin line the first day of the new season. ...pry my fingers off the saw to gas'er up again. (Those who were around before anti vibration handles know what I mean!) ...Get back home at 2 in the morning after being gone for weeks and having to sit and sharpen tools so you are ready to go again tomorrow. and the humorus flip side...you know you are old when someone makes up a "Just one more time.." retirement list and uses words like, strike team leader and dispatch tones... terms which that werent even invented yet when you started playin the game.   Pulaski
03/30	I hope you all have noticed the new Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) logo at the top of this page.  This site supports and encourages their efforts.  While there are certain managers who discourage membership and espouse false rumors related to the ongoing efforts of this organization, I suggest you visit their site and decide for yourself if this hard working association merits your membership.  The organization's web site is newly relocated, revamped, and can be found  by clicking the above logo.  The new webmaster vows to maintain the site in the manner it's serious intentions demand.  All email to this site will now receive a quick, personal response.  I encourage each and every one of you United States federal wildland firefighters to join and support the FWFSA.  With numbers there is power.  You can make a difference.  Abercrombie
03/30	Mellie,  Sorry for your friend's accident. The bad brush boys of Mayer are praying for his fast recovery. Now for you. So, so dissapointed I was to hear that you were in my neck of the woods, and didn't even stop by for a nice vegetarian meal off the grill or a few drinks at the Brewery in Prescott. Oh well, I'm sure sometime this summer our paths will cross. Just don't let it happen again!!  jk :)~  Hunter 45 and Firehorse,  You guys just about brought tears to my eyes with your rendition of "Just one more time." I'll be 31 this May, and going into my 13th season in wildland. I still remember my first fire in Southeast Arizona, loosing my virginity to a "very experienced" MSU college girl in Phillipsburg Montana on the Combination fire in '88 (we were in town, not on the fire!!) working my ass off on many 18-20 hour days on the line, and losing personal friends on the "Storm King" incident. I can honestly say that I would not trade those experiences for anything in this world. The friends and experiences you attain over the years is nothing no one else can experience except for those of us who put our lives on the line every day, every season, every year. I can only hope and pray that when I decide to retire (20 years from now), I will have my own list of "just one more time" to share with a new generation of firefighters. Ab, I'll say it again, thanks for one hell of a site!!   AZ Trailblazer (seems more people now me by this handle than my real name!! :) ps, the rain 'isa' flying in Northern AZ. Looks like fire season is put off for a few more weeks!!  firepup; you need help?? send me your request to: tim_irwin@hotmail.com Last night I was quoting some of the "One Last Time" statements to my wife when I had to pause cause something happened to my throat.  It felt like there was a big lump or something.  My voice cracked, I had  a hundred flashbacks in 10 seconds, I had to stop talking.  She asked me if I was ok. . .I told her I'd never felt better!  Abercrombie
03/30	Several new logos on the logo2 page.  The Black Hills NPS is one of the best I've ever seen!  Ab.
03/30	Great Website! Good info. We would like to join your website. We are a  Canadian/Swedish company and offer a full range of wildland firefighting  equipment from pumps to nozzles including personal protective equipment for  the wildland firefighter. We specialize in suppression/prescribe burning  activities and consult for the Swedish Emergency Services. We have the first  and only heli-rappel firefighting crew in Sweden. Visit us @  www.wildlandfireint.com Glad you like the site, but there really isn't a "joining" process.  Look around, make yourself at home.  Send us photos of fire where you stomp 'em.  Ab.
03/30	Hey Ab, loved the old Dispatcher picture.  Got any more to share?  I feel like we're kind of the forgotten link out here.     RTH Don't have any more like that one RTH.  Don't worry, dispatchers are never forgotten for too long, they're too easy to blame for everything!. Ab.
03/30	Hey Ab, Thanks for posting the NEWRL registration form...attached is a copy that should print cleaner. By the way...If I were a MN Dept. of Natural Resources employee...still, I would have been fired for my reply about Gov. Ventura. The DNR has been applying a policy regarding workplace respect to smokechaser/activists that publicly criticize any DNR or State official. fear tactic to shut people up. That is the main reason someone had to risk being fired/blackballed to make our organization work.  I have recently been contacted by a spate of Federal Forests...looking for experienced smokechasers to hire. Apparently they are nervous about the lower and lower level of experience on the fireline...and think they had better hire some experience early in the season as cheap insurance. I could not agree more. I am sending them the list I have and have signed them up as subscribers...the NEWRL is getting much bigger than we anticipated when we started it. Lots of firefighters looking for "blacker pastures" and lots of contractors and govt. fire folk looking to hire them. Got to get back to work building the list. Dana  Here's the new application:  NEWRL  Ab.
03/29	Hey Firehorse I hear ya loud and clear brother. I too would like to get out and gear up just one more time. Got married and responsible,wildland fire suppression was the victim in my life. However I will never forget the friends, the sights, and the wonder of fire. Maybe we will both get to saddle the helo and take another ride, geared up of course. My addition would be.... just one more time on initial attack, swinging a pulaski, snorting smoke, and ducking slurry. Ya all have a safe summer now ya hear, Postal
03/29	Hi Ab and all. Bet you all thought yer pup had gotten swallowed into a deep trench of homework or something. Well, truth be known I did for a while. Between tending to car wrecks with the VFD and quarterly finals I've been a bit busy, and I'll have to restate that that is the last time I'll not read the page for over a week. Now for the point of this message: I need help. Yeah, that's right, your exuberant, journalist/fire-fighter wanna-be pup needs help, and on no easy topic either. I have been assigned a task to research and communicate my findings on any given topic, and, silly me, chose the on-the-job life of a wildland fire fighter, a topic in whcih he has very little knowledge base to write about.  This being said, if any of you old dogs out there would be willing to share some experiences with me I'd appreciate it beyond words. Some things I'd be interested to hear about include: How long you waited for dinner back at camp, Equipment malfunctions (chains, pumps, even broken pulaski handles (HEAVEN FORBID!)), Discussions over coffee in the morning, how much sleep you did (or didn't) get. Details details details. I may not be a skillful as a writer as Tom Clancy is in relating everything, but I'd like to try to emulate his accuracy. How do you guys live while you are doing what you love? Dispatchers: I could use words of wisdom from you as well, Maybe even spotters, or look-out tower keepers. I want to know how life is from the first waft of smoke on the horizon to the last bit of soot you wash from your face. Once again, if any of you old dogs would be interested in sharing any thing with me, I'd appreciate it. Send e-mail to rangertiny@hotmail.com Thanks in advance, Tiny, the R-6 Fire-pup For those of you who aren't aware of who Tiny is, get y'er butt in the Archives pages and do some research.  For the regular readers, help him out!  Actually Tiny, the One More Time thread may be all you need.  Thre is some great stuff in those posts!  Ab.
03/29	Hello Firefighters and Abercrombie This is my first visit to your site. Nice colors and setup. Thanks for the  unofficial version of the Rains Report. I heard I could get it here. I tried  to download the official pdf version earlier today from a FS website.  Downloading was taking a VERY LONG time and crashing other programs. I  finally gave up. The version you link to is much easier to get onto my  computer. I'm going to send some friends over here to get a fast copy. Do  you do this often? It's a good service! rkeck Glad you are here rkeck.  You ask, "Do I do this often?"  Do I do what often?  Do I provide a place for people to voice their opinions and post information that may not be obtainable elsewhere?  Hopefully. . . Ab.
03/29	re: notes about the video clip from Sacramento, from Mellie, HELLitorch et al: the webmasterboy for the CIIMW website is now aware of the browser incompatibility problems and is working on them. patience is a virtue. kelly. Yup, 'an knowledge is power, but only when it's shared.  Ab.
03/29	Mellie To play the honor guard video in netscape, open real player and cut and paste the URL (http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ciimw/ ) into the open location window. It's not too good of a clip, but you'll get the idea. HELLitorch
03/29	Hey Ab., Have not had a chance to read They Said for over a week...lobbying in St. Paul...it is the legislative season. To the post regardng support by our Gov. Jesse Ventura. The MWFA has repeatedly asked the Gov. to respond in any way to our letters to him. NO RESPONSE. Even worse...his commissioner of Natural Resources also refuses to respond...has told the very underlings that are responsable for causing/ignoring problems to "deal with us". Since they would rather keep thier past mistakes quiet...they do not "deal" with us. Unless of course their edict to make an example of me by officially blackballing me is thier way of dealing. Since this has been thier standard way of "dealing with troublemakers" in the past...and they informed me in writing that my activism was "affecting my future employability" over a year ago...I expected it. What an impotent response...considering that as the administrator of the NEWRL I now have more fire job contacts than any other person on the planet.  I was a strong Jesse Ventura supporter when he was "talking the talk"...about creating a state govt. that is responsible to the people of the state... unfortunately once he was elected he promptly(and conveniently) forgot about it. Just another politician with campaign promises...he doesn't "walk the walk". We have learned that to make significant changes (which the MWFA has) we needed to take chances and fight...going directly to the legislature and media. I have no regrets for the chances I took. Risk=Reward. As always I am more than willing to help other interested in starting a similar Association in thier state...or going national. We have finalized the MWFA National EmergencyWildfireResourceList registration form and fee. If you are willing to post it Ab I would appreciate it immensely. I can then devote more time to administering it and well...life. 10-4 Dana.  Interested parties can find the aplication here: MWFA Application Ab.
03/29	Hellitorch, Tonka and All, Helli, thanks for the honor guard link. It doesn't work with Netscape. I'll try to view it on a friend's computer. (I don't think the people maintaining many of the FS sites realize that they're set up only for Internet Explorer and, hence, exclude about 40% of the population of readers. Wonder if there's a conspiracy going with Bill Gates?) Tonka (and Ab and others), great job on the new FWFSA web page! The new look and additional information are *SERIOUS* contributions to the statement that we are "professionals"! As most of you know, the web is soooooooo powerful in getting the word out. Thanks you guys, for doing the tedious work of making FF issues known in Washington via the web and/or going there in person! Hey, we need people to sign up! We'll have POWER in numbers! Everyone, I hope you're being safe out there. A good friend whom I spent time with last Wed. at the Sacramento meetings was hit by a 12"DBH falling snag while hooking a slopover up here in our mountains. He's been in ICU since late Friday with 3 cracked thoracic vertebrae. The docs think he'll be OK, but he's pretty immobalized now! My prayers are with him and his family.  EACH of you, PLEASE BE SAFE for all of us. I love ya'll. Mellie
03/28	Here's an unofficial link to the report known as the Raines Report, a report examining large fire costs:  http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/rains/   Ab.
03/28	A lot of hard work has been, and is being done to benefit you, the Wildland firefighter.     The FWFSA has been  in Washington D.C. addressing the IAFF convention and visiting Congressional offices. There is lots of support for our issues. To find out what they are, "stop Lurking"  and lend your support, visit http://www.fwfsa.org Don't stand by quietly reaping the benefits, we need your support!!! -Tonka Abercrombie concurs and will be working with Tonka to help promote the FWFSA as he overhauls and maintains the new, improved, web site.
03/28	Congratulations to Stan Stewart the new Los Padres Hot Shot Superintendent, may the tradition continue. oldboy
03/28	MOC4546, I have a copy of the 1983 Water Handling and Equipment Guide.  I will be happy to assist, what you got to trade? WP
03/28	Hunter '45, You can add these to your "Just One More Time" list: Just One More Time: I would like to be humping up the line or scouting ahead of the Division and thinking this is a young person's game and it is time to quit.  Knowing full well that I would be back next year. Just One More Time: I would like to feel the straps of my line pack cutting into my shoulders and waist at the end of a shift. Just One More Time: I would like to be sitting in an Idaho wilderness Spike Camp meadow with 150 other people, eating dinner brought in by a pack string and watching a gorgeous sunset. Just One More Time: I would like to be in that same meadow hugging Tom Shepard as he got off the helicopter and feeling like I drained off some of the pain he was feeling that September day in '94.  Just One More Time: I would like to teach a class of 280 new people in Basic Fire School and have some of them come up after the final exam and say they think they have found something they will love to do. Just One More Time: I would like to be in the middle of a dying 20,000 acre South Zone fire looking for hotspots and run into an old friend I smokejumped with years ago. Just One More Time: I would like to go on a 3.5 mile training run and agree beforehand that we would not make a race out of it for the last 1/2 mile.  All the time knowing "Mouse" would pick up the pace on his 26" legs and I would be in hot pursuit with my 34" legs.  Then spend our cool down time arguing over who started racing first. Just One More Time: I would like to sit in the Glen Helen Regional Park and complain about the frozen turkey dinner I was having for Thanksgiving.  (Just remembered the shovel box races across the lake there also.) Just One More Time: I would like to be on a torch helping light a unit and wondering why anyone would knowingly choose to work in an office. Just One More Time: I would like to get that late night/early morning call "The team is up" from the Ops Chief or "I just heard rumbling in clouds to the SW and they are headed this way" from the lookout. Just One More Time: I would like to hear my wife say "Not another fire T-shirt". Just One More Time: I would like to have the Midnight Suns, ZigZag, Redmond and Prineville Hotshots on my Division and shake my head at the amount of work they produced on a daily basis, day after day.  Just One More Time: I would like to be in R-8 fighting fire with a fire rake. Just One More Time: I would like to relive the last fire I was on with the knowledge that it would be that last time I would ever gear up in Nomex, line gear, hardhat, gloves and Whites. I would like to feel the heat and smell the smoke. Just One more Time: I will remember all the places I have been, country I have seen and most importantly; friends I have made thru being connected to wildland fire suppression and fire prevention Firehorse
03/28	I was showing the fireman that works for us your page so I thought I might say Hi. Ron Belveal Hi.  Ab.
03/28	Hunter '45, Don't feel bad, there's the contract fire people that are looking for firefighters with your attitude and experience.  Give a local contract fire company a call.   It may not be the steady shot of wildland fire, but it will give you a chance to sip that morning cup of coffee with the crew and push you to keeping that body in the best shape (as possible) for many years to come.
03/27	Mellie If you missed the bagpipes go to: http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ciimw/ click on Day-to-day highlights from the workshop and Video of Honor Guard Ceremony. You need Real Player to run it. HELLitorch
03/27	The new link to the 310-1 Wildland Fire & Prescribed Fire Qualification System Guide - 2000 is: http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/docs/docs.htm --Kelly
03/27	To Hickman and Firehorse,  I too, am fast approaching my last fire season.  My knees look like two old  beat-up leather footballs from all of the repairs we have had to make on them  over the years.  That being said, I just can't see myself not being able to  make the next fire season,  even though it has to happen soon.  I have put together a short list of things that kept me coming back each year  for the past 30+ years.  I call it "Just One More Time".  There are many more  reasons to come back than this short list, and I invite all the old fire dogs  out there to add to this list of: "Just One More Time" Just One More Time: I would like to make the morning shift change, sip that  first cup of coffee with the off going crew, and make plans for the upcoming  day with my crew. Just One More Time: I would like to empty out my IA pack, replace the old  chewing gum, eye wash, toilet paper, candy bars, and fusees from last fire  season. Just One More Time: I would like to plan my vacation around the upcoming fire  season, and be sure not be gone during the full moon period. Just One More Time: I would like to feel the adrenaline rush as the dispatch  tones are going off sending my crew on a fire response. Just One More Time: I would like to hear our engineer yell "Holy Shit, look  at that header", look up, and see the fire in the next district, and hope  that we will be first on scene. Just One More Time: I would like to wake up in the middle of the night to the  sound of a major wind event, knowing that it’s a matter of time before the  dispatch tones will go off. Just One More Time: I would like to feel my boots wrap around my ankles as I  lace up in the early morning dew. Just One More Time: I would like to stand in the chow line with a hundred  other strangers of all sizes shapes and origins from all around the country,  anticipating the sausage and eggs, OJ and hot coffee. Just One More Time: I would like to get that 2300 hour phone call from the  dispatcher telling me to be at some far off ranger station for an 0500  Operational Briefing. Just One More Time: I would like to lean over the hood of the truck with the  Crew Sups and Strike Team Ldr’s and work out a plan for the day. Just One More Time: I would like to come off the fireline, squat down waiting  for the ride back to camp, leaning back on my pack and knowing that we all  gave it a 100%. Just One More Time: I would like to stand around the warming fire in the  evening at the spike camp and talk about all the fires we fought in the past  and how good we were then. compared to now. Just One More Time. . . Hunter '45
03/27	Re:  MOC4546 post about things that need to change for wildland fire folks... MOC, I couldn't agree with your post more.  In fact, I posted something  similar a couple of weeks ago. There is only one problem with your post...You talk about not being  "political".  Unfortunately, the issues going on with the federal wildland  pay issues ARE POLITICAL. We are in a cycle where Congress allocates our budget.  They base our budget  on what we tell them we do.  Right now, NFMS is the budgeting tool we use to  tell them how much money we need to be at our "most effective level".  Nationwide, we are not consistent in what we think is "our business".  We are  also not consistent in our thinking about our cost/benefit for the land we  protect.  All this plays a factor in the money we get to do our work. I work in R-5.  California is constantly being criticized as being "out  there" when it comes to how we do business.  Ya know what?  We DO do business  differently.  We have to.  Our seasons tend to last longer.  We have some  issues that other regions don't have to deal with.  I'm not going to list the  issues, you all know what they are. There are a lot of good people out here taking on NATIONAL issues for the  greater good, including many that you've addressed here.  The biggest battle  we face is the "traditional" mindset that "older generation" fire folks hold  onto.  Many of these folks are currently in policy making positions.  We hear  things like, "FS fire modules are here for management and protection of the  natural resources.  We are not funded to be a professional firefighters.  We  are not funded for medical runs."  So guess what?  We are not funded for  other "risks" unless they are directly related to protection of the natural  resources or requested by FEMA.  Because we don't tell Congress this is work  that we do. This is the mindset that keeps us from making much progress in the areas you  say we need to advance.  I don't want to imply that EVERYONE in policy making  positions holds onto the "habits, traditions and past practices" that hold us  back.  There are several upper management officials who are working very hard  to help increase the incentives for more FS employees to support fire  management activities. It isn't fair to lump all management into a "cesspool".  For every manager I  hear saying "that's not the way we do it", I've heard ground pounders say the  very same thing.  We should be proud of our traditions.  I've worked for this  organization for over 20 years because of some of these traditions.  But we  also need to know when to evolve beyond those traditions.  Appreciate where  we come from, but don't hold on to those beliefs to the point where we  paralyze ourselves.  If we don't start evolving beyond these pay issues,  we're going to become extinct. Firefighters who love this work also need to get paid for what they are  worth.  They can no longer feed their families on their love for this job.  They need to feed their families 12 months out of the year, not just 6  months.  They need to earn salaries that are equal to the risks they take on  and the professionalism they display. I heard at the CIIMT meeting last week that the portal-to-portal issue is  dead.  I heard that the 24 hour shifts are just a ploy to get  portal-to-portal pay.  So, we're being told we can't use them as viable shift  options to put fires out. These are all RUMORS!  This is all BULLSHIT.  We have many tools available to  us to help us get our work done.  We need to use as many of them as we can.  A hammer may work to pound in a nail, but it doesn't work well to install a  window. I've challenged you to write to your local Congressional representatives to  get them to understand the issues.  That's the external way to get these  issues addressed.  If you continue to depend on internal sources to get these  changes made, it won't happen quickly. We need to attack this issue from both flanks just like we would attack a  fire.  These issues won't get contained if we don't do this. "@"
03/27	There is a lot of frustration out there about the packtest, primary purpose budgeting, max-out pay, the decreased number of the "militia", etc.  Seems to me that we have 3 trends that are going to come together in a train wreck: 1. Fewer firefighters available to put into the field. 2. Extreme fire behavior becoming more comman due to fuel accumulations resulting from past fire suppression.  You see alot more fires blowing and going now than you did in the 1970s. 3. More people building their houses in the woods and not following any type of interface safety guidelines.   The net result is that we are going to have more large fires (exhibiting extreme fire behavior), have more resources (houses) in the wildland to protect, and will have fewer resources to use to do our jobs. The bottom line for me is that if I can help keep the people that I work with SAFE!, I won't lose to much sleep about the rest.  I will continue to try to do my job to the best of my ability with the resources provided, but if we lose a few houses in the process, oh well.  Sounds callous I know, but I have yet to be stampeded by rich people asking me for advice on how to build a fire-safe house out in the woods. I hate to sound like a motivational speaker, but the future is full of opportunities.  If you supervise a group of firefighters safely through a potentially hazardous situation you can educate them and possibly earn their respect.  If you refuse to send them into dangerous situations you are doing the highest calling that you can do as a fire supervisor.  Folks, things are going to continue to appear to go downhill.  So what?, we can not much about it.  Keep your people SAFE and just recognize that we are going to be handed incredable photo opportunities!  Keep that camera ready! 6 I don't see you as being callous 6, just realistic (or for those readers with a college degree, pragmatic).  Many firefighters I know spent part of the off season trying to rid themselves of guilt feelings over escaped fires they used to be able to catch.  Ab.
03/27	I'm looking for wildland fire "slang" terminology with meanings.  A local band is writing lyrics and ask for terms used by wildland firefighters.  The normal glossary terms I have, but it's the slang that's really needed for music.   email to firemeup@fire-stop.com         Thanks!
03/26	Ab:  Just love this short term memory of mine.  I'm currently working on a Ford F-8000 with a Marmon Harrington factory 4wd conversion.  I need some misc. parts and most importantly is where can I contact Marmon Harrington for service manuals, etc.  can you help? rmmcgee@jps.net thanks again Ab. Mike:)
03/25	G'Day  Well, obviously i found your site, and it looks good. But i also need some help (If you can). Now i'm in Australia, a member of the New South Wales RFS(Volunteer). Basically what i'd like to know is this. do you guys get paid to do fire fighting as a full-time job, and if so, how would i go about getting into it if i wanted to come over to America for a season or two? Wellthanks for your time, and i hope to hear from you soon. Ben Barry
03/25	Dear Sirs! I liked Your site very much. I would like to ask You for permission to  install link to Your site via my own site .Fire Service in Republic of  Belarus. (http://www.armybook.com/fire/index.html). There is interesting information in English installed on my server. The information devoted to fire-fighting engines in Republic of Belarus, fire-fighting engine history  in Russia from the book .The Complete Story of Russian Fire Engines from  1700 to 2000. (in English and German) and can be useful for those who call  on your server. If You have nothing against installation in Your room the  communication that pointing to my server (HTML code is appended to the  letter) I would appreciate to You extremely. Allow me to express my  sincere gratitude for so necessary and useful server.  Yours faithfully Serg Berg belfire@armybook.com  http://www.armybook.com/fire/firebook.html Just call me Ab, Serg.  Drop the "Sirs" stuff or I'll start looking over my shoulder to see if there's a Colonel or General behind me.  Don't get too excited folks, the web site serves as a port for selling a book.  That's ok, I'm a capitalist too! Ab.
03/25	In response to the note from Hickman about folks getting too old for the line; but, still having valuable experience to assist the fire suppression organization.  This has been a problem within the FS since I got involved 30+ years ago.  One thing I tried to do was sit down once a year and counsel each person on the Zone (Two Ranger Districts).  I wanted to know their ultimate goal in fire suppression, and if we supported reaching their goal would they then make themselves available.  If their only interest was in Operations, they were then counseled to consider a secondary track besides Ops.  Some drug their feet and only wanted to do Ops and Ops only.  My usual approach at that point was to give them a scenario of:  What happens when you hit the big 50 and the old body starts protesting all the years of humping the hills or just plain gives out?  If you do not have a parallel training/qualifications track going, you can, and probably will get left in the dust.  Most managers and bean counters figure you don't have enough years left in the organization to warrant investing time and money in your training to bring you up to speed for quals in any area outside of Operations.  They probably have some other young person that they are grooming for that position that they are willing to put the money into knowing that in the long run they will get several years out of them vs. five more out of you. For those of you that are just starting or are relatively young I know it is hard to think of doing anything on a fire other than going up against the Dragon in hand to hand combat.  But; I can guarantee you that some day you will not be able to face the Dragon head to head, but still want to help kick his butt.  Get with your Fire Management people now and start that parallel fire career track!  You can still devote most of your time to Operations jobs; but when the body says enough is enough, you will have some qualifications to fall back on that will still keep you in the fire suppression business. A sidenote here:  You may be a well qualified Operations Stud/Studette that is a real go-getter, then sudenly out of nowhere you get smacked up alongside the head with a rare disease like I did and you are left out in the cold.  I figured I had alot of years left of doing the job I loved almost more than my family (My wife considered fighting fires to be an acceptable mistress!) and the next thing I knew I was out of fire suppression altogether and out of a job.  Enjoy every fire you go on as if it was your last, cuz it could be! For those of you that will be on the lines this year my heart and prayers are with you!  I follow the NIFC daily reports and you will have one person that will never second guess your decisions on a fire.  I read this from someone in "They Said" in a note from 3/25 and it is some of the best advice I heard in 30 years of fighting fire: "All these guys know that their fire shelter is not on their belt but between their ears."  A lot of wisdom in that statement!  Firehorse Thanks for the post Firehorse!  Most firefighters are aware of the risk from fires, but as you point out there are other situations life may bring to modify your dreams.  I'm personally glad you are watching the site and sharing your thoughts and experience with us.  Ab.
03/25	Supe's party was an eye opener to me and probably to many other younger LP guys.  We are lucky to have worked for Supe and Bone.  There aren't many other real "old school" guys left these days.  Most all of the guys that are lucky enough to get to work for these men know about paying their dues and learning from the best.  The ones who stick it out and stay on the crew long enough to get something out of it are quality young men.  They would be successful at whatever carrer path chosen.  All of these guys know that there fire shelter is not on there belt but between there ears.  Many have collage diplomas.  These young men are a great asset to the federal agencies and the fire fighting community in general.  Why do over half of them end up choosing another career despite there love of the fire line?  Lack of benefits?  Budget cuts?  Non-merit based promotion?  This problem is not central to the LP it happens everywhere.  There is a large population of people directly and indirectly involved with wildland firefighting in the United States that is silent.  Let someone know that you don't agree with agency policy.  Write your representative.  The knowledge men like Supe have shared need not be lost because of politics. Most Politicians have one goal, from Bill Clinton to some district, and most forest supervisors.  They want to stay in office.  If we can bring a powerful voice to the table in Washington, things will change.  Maybe we will not lose some of the quality people that have been lost in the past.  That knowlage can stay where it belongs......
03/25	Here is a little feed back on the packtest.  On our unit we tested 113 people, 111 of those passed.  Those are not bad odds.  We tested every size and shape of people there are.  The best part of the packtest is that it is up to the individual to do it.  Get in shape and be ready for it, it is as simple as that.  It is a much better test than stepping up and down on a box for 5 minutes, and letting some scale tell you if you are in shape or not.  I found that I could pass the step test with a higher score if I took the test on the mens box and mens scale than on the womans box and scale, what is up with that...... Yes is is more weight than you may have packed in your regular line gear, I think when I was on the shot crew the limit was 35 pounds, add a tool or bladder bag to that and there you go. Most of the dispatchers in our office take it so that they can participate in line activities either in the spring or fall.  This promotes them keeping their line quals up and getting them out to see different places on the district.  All in all I think it helps them do a better job. I know that the majority of folks on our unit believe that it is a much better test of endurance and strength than the step test ever was. Good Luck, dispatcher
03/25	Having been in the FS for almost 30 years, I am priveleged to have known and  worked for the Supe.  There's no other like him, and certainly no other that  has developed so many young "sports' " into the fine folks they are today. His party was fitting for the dedication he put into his career.  Klinger  from LACO who MCed the shindig had me pissing my pants I was laughing so hard! My thanks to Stan "the bone" Stewart, Tom "shorty" Clack, and last but not  least, "killer" Abu Bin Laden Duprey..They put together a hell of a good time  for us all! JW
03/25	Those "embarassing" BBQ aprons that I presented to Linane at his retirement  party are a great gift for someone who knows how to have fun, and is not  concerned with fitting into the Politically Correct world 24 hours a  day..Guaranteed you'll have a great time at anyone's BBQ with one of these  Gems!! Want one? Contact: jwa1057@aol
03/25	The BLM in Moab Utah is looking for qualified fire fighters for the 2000 season especially a qualified  engine operator or assistant foreman. If you are interested or know someone who is contact the department of work force services before the end of the month at 435-259-3700. Thanks, Terry Now here's a new type post for the page. . . an outreach announcement for employment.  Very creative Terry.  Ab.
03/25	capt. 73: I'm currently checking with a friend of mine who mfgs. cafs system to glean some more info for you.  I'll try to find the addy and get it back to you asap.  please email me at rmmcgee@jps.net  Mike
03/25	Where the FS is becoming short handed and then there are those which can not pass the pack test, but those individuals could be very valued assets to the fire service in other ways.  There are more levels to the pack test than the ARDUOUS.  These individual which can not pass that part should still be able to preform within other areas such as Safety or in Fire Behavior Areas or even be able to put their years of experiance and knowledge to use in the upper end, Staging, Office-type work with occasional field activity.  I agree that knowledge is very important on the line, but is it not just as important on the head end?  I am sure that a lot you these individuals are more than able to direct or lead others.  But they are unsure of their abilities.  I like many others would love to be a ground pounder as long as possible, but time is getting short for that.  Now is the time to start thinking about doing something else, like educating ourselves in (a real DURTY WORD)...MANAGEMENT... If you can survive in Management, then you can change things for the future. Change the things that needed changing in the past, keep you heads-up and improve the things that need improving.  If it takes going all the way to DC, then do it.  Just don't set out on your behinds and watch the world run off.  If you know of someone who can't make the grade as a firefighter, but they are a good leader, encourage them in moving up the ladder.  It sometime take an attitude adjustment to do what you want and if you can't adjust your own, then maybe it is time to get out. ..(as I climb down off the soapbox)..there's two cents you can take to the bank.. and I hope it earns interest for you.. Hickman
03/25	Note from Dana to Ab regarding responses to "HOLY COW" post on 3/23: Hey Ab, FYI I received 47 responses...most from firefighters...some from contractors...2 from Govt. employees. More today! The contractors seem to be networking well and are enthusiastic about the new resource from what I can see here. It appears that some NIFC folks would rather not have to dispatch "human" resources...would be happy with equipment only. Others in Govt. agencies (western) are happy that contractors will have access to resources from the Midwest...hope it will cut down on "predation" of "their resources". Am still waiting for final OK from MWFA working committee on registration forms and fees. Would you consider posting them on your site so they could be downloaded easily by firefolk? Currently I am emailing copies to individuals...but will be swamped if the volume keeps up. Am also considering web site of own but simply cannot devote the time right now. Thanks again for your help...this may be a big change in wildfire employment.  I personally hope that it will lead to the formation of a nationwide counterpart of the MWFA which will actually fight(as we do) for better working conditions, better pay, higher safety standards, and real benefits for wildfire fighters. In just the few years that we have been in existence we have increased the actual value of "firepay" by nearly 30% in MN. We have had to initiate lawsuits(several against the state and one against the Forest Service) and lobby hard to get the results...but we got result in a relatively short period of time and our membership has grown exponentially as our smokechasers realized that their support increased our clout and more clout meant better working conditions for them. Edit and include this in "they said if you wish. Dana Linscott Vice chair MWFA Dana, when you are ready for links to the ap's, just let me know.  Ab.
03/25	Hi All-- Just got back from a day in Sacramento at the California Interagency Incident Management Team meeting. Hellitorch, Sthil, San Bernardino Honor Guard, I thought of all of you when I heard there was an Honor Guard event. I missed the bagpipes. I was hoping someone took it in! Thanks Helli for reporting! Man, I'm bummed I didn't get to meet you! Next time carry a drip torch or some larger identifying object! I often carry a notebook. Drives those who are paranoid CRAZY! My invite was from R5 and my visit was brief. (I only got permission for one day away from FF1. My CDF instructor is just RELENTLESS!) I hustled down late Tues. and mostly heard the afternoon presentations Wed., including Quintanar's one-crutch classic! Nice talk, funny! Ray sounded like a strident cross between the Preacher and the Law. He went off on computerized timekeeping on incidents (barcodes on redcards, no less!), WFSA projections and fire perimeters, ICTs needing to understand local agreements with soverign entities (Indians), the murder of Dick Blood, problems with unclear IAPs, the "need to follow rules we've set each and every time, no exceptions" in terms of zero tolerance, AD crews, etc and <catch of breath> demonstrated correct and incorrect ways to conduct a briefing! Anyone want more on any of these topics and we'll try to get a thread going... Ray also mentioned the 14 vs 21 day assignments. It was discussed in a meeting in depth before I arrived. Can anyone shed some light on that? If not, I'll give him a call, clarify and report back. Sounds like there's more latitude than first thought...  The other interesting presentation IMO was an overview of proposed California IC Certification System that will bring all agencies involved in ICT-level fire into the same system (NWCG 310-1) with course work, PTBs and peer review. (Remember, one of the first questions I asked theysaid last Nov related to discrepancies in training. Felt like deja vu.) The board addressing this includes California fire chiefs, OES rep, USFS, state Fire Marshall, and 3 other organizations. With CDF and greater city fire services involvement along with USFS, standerdization of the training (OJT) portion is necessary--but I don't think there was a CDF rep. (At the level below the ICT, we need to have the same standards/requirements for contractors and AD crew members as for other groundpounders, etc. Contractors may be working on this. What about AD crews??? Comments to the effect that these crews have seriously declined in quality of late especially as a fire has dragged on as the BigBar did.)  Had dinner with Team 5, Dale Dague's team. FYI, I've heard that Dale has a birthday complete with embarrassing "song" every team event! What a hoot! Of course, the logistics person (Carl R.) had to do dinner logistics at first, but that was taken over by the info person (Dave F.) who had all the answers, the big smile and the camera. The finance person had to get the bill, collect the money and come up with a payment plan. As a dedicated Federal economist, when there seemed to be a financial shortfall, she demanded to know who had ordered the dip for the bread sticks (no one had) and wanted that charge stricken! Turned out there was more money greenbacking in and all worked out... Great fun-- great team SPIRIT! (and to the team 5 guy I talked to after dinner who said that theysaid is like family, I agree <ohsohappy grin>) Thanks to L.L. who let me coyote at his place in Upper Lake, to Brian who invited me to dinner, to RQ for inviting me, to Hutch for the hug, and to others...  To firedoc, I don't feel comfortable answering that question on the internet--   Mellie
03/25	TO cs.o. AND bs AND ab AND firechick AND FireBooger AND mtwo AND Eric AND Tony AND everyone else on the pack test stuff: jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeminy christmas already on the development and applicability of the pack test compared to step test and so on and so on ad nauseum. I've been meaning to put this online in html for a loooooooong time and still haven't got to it. I swear I'll do it soon, okay?????? IN THE MEANTIME, though, here ya go, in (ack) pdf format, the goods on the pack test and its development and testing and testing administration: http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/firefree.html Pay attention to the directions and click on the "pack test" link.  NOTE that this was written over a year ago. Keep that in mind as you read it! I plan to update it and put a fresh version online soon -- including addressing the questions about "what about the firedogs who flunk" and other current questions and issues. For now, though, please SHUT UP about how it is or is not relevant to the real world on the fireline!! At least until you know how and why it was developed! <end of tirade> thank you. Kelly Andersson. <=and no I am not Mellie.
03/24	Everyone,      I am looking for a copy of the old Water Handling guide that was published back in 1983 and reprinted in 1987 or 1988. This book has a white cover with either red or blue lettering, and contains specific information regarding wildland fire engines, and specific equipment related to wildland firefighting. If you have a copy please post your e-mail so I can contact you. I need it for a research project, but no one I know from fire management can locate the book or something similar.       To the person who has passed on the subject regarding the problems our brother and sister wildland firefighters from Minesota are having getting longer employment, out of state fire assignments, and better pay and benifits, out of curiosity have you appoached your Governor, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, been notified about it and if so what has his response been? Seeing how he was elected on being against stuff like this, I am curious as to what he said about it.       As to the Great Contractor Debate, I want to put my two cents in. I have worked with and know many people in the contracting business in Region 5. Some have outstanding equipment, some older but well functioning equipment, and some bad looking equipment but it does the job. All of the contractors I have met are professional, consistant in the perfomance of their assignments, and do not try to do a half-ass job. There is a place for contractors in the wildland fire community in the initial attack, support, mop-up, and prescribed burning operations that we have going on all over the western USA. But contractors are not, and should not be a replacement for the paid, permanent government firefighting staff. We have all read in this month's "They Said" the different opinions on contractors with their positive and negative asspects. If you have surfed the Internet and have seen just how many contractors are out there, the level of professionalism that many of them maintain in their training, personnel, and equipment there is going to always be a place for them.        They realise that much of what the contract out for is fire suppression, either IA or mop-up, and that there are good years and bad. 1997 and 1998 almost put many contractors out of business, and in Oregon I understand as many as ten contractors folded or closed up because of the lack of fires and project work. I have heard all this about supporting the contractors and bidding out RX burns, establishing standby and training fees, use of contractors on first and second alarm responses, and using them on out-of-area campaign fires. I have also heard back and forth that the forests and land agencies support such a plan, but when it comes down to it nothing happens with these proposals. These people want to work, not just collect a paycheck for existing. Many contractors try to hustle the work in proposing RX burns, fuel management, private urban interface protection, and have expanded to providing training courses, hazard reduction, disaster management and other non-fire operations.        But contractors are not, and should not be a replacement for a government fire agency. If the forests continue to use contractors for fire suppression they need to support them by following through on agreements made for levels of work. The attitude of "We know you want to go to a fire, but we need you here incase we break a fire, so we're not going to release you to other fires and keep you here. But unfortunately we can't pay you until we have a fire and we send you to it." does not pay the bills or feed the family. There has been too much corruption in the past by contracting out tasks without some king of government oversite and a government type of crew to compare it to. If we keep contractors, then they need to be treated equally as far as assignments by ALL agencies, no favorites, no special uses, no "hiding resources" for a fire that has yet to exist. Contractors also need to understand that just because you get on the list does not mean that you will go to a fire (like the right to own and bear arms), that this is ON-CALL. If you wanted the 40-week Forest Firefighter Job then you should apply for it. Contractor also need to be honest with there employees about the number of times they may go out, keeping them informed of the status of there company like where they are on the response lists, being honest about projected work assignments, and letting them know if problems occur that can affect future fire assignments.       One thing that affects all of us, public or private, is the use of the military on fires. National Guard helicopters and air tankers are not supposed to be used unless almost all air resource, which are predominately privatized, have been committed to all fires and the maximum drawdown limit has occured. Military personnel are not supposed to be used unless ALL public and private resources have reached maximum drawdown. Yet on very large scale fires this happens regularly.  You may think its not so, but think back to where you were during the Siege of '87, Yellowstone '88, or the other big fire years. I can name MANY goverment IA crews, AD crews, possible put-together crews, engine crews, and others who were not there but were available to go. The forests, contractors, and the Wildland Firefighter Union need to come together and get a solid, binding agreement with management regarding the use of military soldiers to act as firefighters, either IA or Type2. Use up EVERY GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE CONTRACT FIRE CREW BEFORE CALLING THE MILITARY FOR ADDITIONAL MANPOWER. When these people come in they have to go through the Basic 32-hour  Academy (s-110,130, and 190) which means that the crews on the resource list who are READY TO GO are not being used. Decide which way to go, and stick with it.       On the pay issue, I keep hearing how so many of the overhead want a simpler pay scale for wildland firefighters so they get fair, comparable wages, but management (or a single bean counter trying to make a name for themselves) continue to water it down so they don't have to pay a fair wage. So let me put this suggestion out: * Move the 0462, 0455, 0303, and other wildland fire catagories out of the Technician Series and make them Firefighters in the 0081 series. * 24 hour staffing may not be feasible in all locations, so continue with the 40-hour except where urban interface is commonplace. * Stop being "wildland" organizations and move into the "all-risk" responsibilities like responding to medicals, traffic accedents, haz-mats, rescues, ect., on a seasonal schedule, rather than a year-round operation. More and more agencies have expanded there operations and responsibilities to be more competitive, productive, and harder to cut. * When going to campaign fires, move to a Portal-to-Portal 24-hour pay scale where your paid from the time you leave home until the time you get back. Do not use a flat rate, but rather continue on the 40-hour schedule with overtime after 8 standard hours per day, but do away with hazard pay, night differential, Sunday differential, and all those little incremental payments as a trade off. Lay down the law that you are on call 24 hours a day, no excuses. Which mean no bar hopping, no alcohol, no shenanagans, and no bad behavior like have occured on long assignments which blacken a crew's record and agency's reputations. We are professionals and we should be paid, treated, and act like professionals.  * Those personnel who are at the GS-10 and above levels need to have the overtime cap removed so they to can be fairly paid for there efforts.  * Government employees who are not Primary Fire but have signed up for it should receive the same pay mentioned above under the same curcomstance, however, all Primary Fire employees need to be utilized before calling out secondary fire crews. Too many time in the past fire management personnel have be available for assignments but employees who work outside fire get called before they do. This has to come to an end.      Along with this forests and districts have played the game with Region as to resource availability as to "they are not avaialble" to go out of region. When you are called, you go. When single resources are called, that forest needs to send them and GIVE THAT EMPLOYEE TIME TO CATCH UP WITH THEIR OTHER DUTIES!!! No more "you can go to the fire for 21-days, but your project due dates are still the same. That is B.S.!!! You get called to the fire, then give the employee the time to catch up. Boy, its easy ot get side tracked when your on a roll. Finally, everyone needs to get involved, from the 35 year veteran to the first-season firefighter, in what goes on in there district and forest fire management programs. Work together to meet the goals. Know what's going on, keep informed. Share the wealth and don't play politics.  MOC4546
03/23	Has anyone had any experience with the Econo-CAFs system from CFX in El Segundo?  According to the manufacturer, it will pump 100 gpm of water, compress air, and inject foam with one small Honda engine to give CAFs, water, or Class A foam, all in one unit.  It uses a 12 cylinder rotary design to do all this with one 6 HP gas engine or potentially a 24 volt motor.  Has anyone used one of these or its bigger brother?  We are trying to see if it makes sense for us to get one of these. "Captain 73" Don Stevens Poulsbo Fire Department Kitsap Wildland Team
03/23	HOLY COW! There must be an awful lot of lurkers out there...my last posting resulted in A LOT of responses...I just spent the morning trying to respond to them all...ended up sending a "kind of form letter" saying please be patient. All "work wanted" emails will get this "form response" and regular updates unless they really request specific information not supplied in the form response. Please,for now at least, keep your emails brief. I have all I can do getting the AAL up and running. I try to read every email I receive...but don't be discouraged if it takes a few days to respond.All potential employers will have their email addresses placed in our mass email program and will receive a test letter next week. Thanks for your understanding. Dana Linscott Vice Chair MWFA (MN Wildland Firefighters' Association) linscott@rea-alp.com
03/23	not being in the wildland firefighting experience very long it just seems to me that the pack test is more job specific than the step test. how many times have you gone to a fire and repeatedly stepped up and down in place. pack test is an overall test physically and mentally. i would rather be on a crew with members that did the pack test. it doesn't discriminate, if it's in your heart to fight fire, then train for it. cs.o. pa.
03/23	"Boo"   I must commend you on your work regarding the TX Wildland Firefighter patch logo.  It's a very unique design.  I combed the volumes of message boards and was fortunate enough to locate 1 single patch; however, I paid (traded) dearly for it!  Thanks for your input! Tate
03/22	AB: if I was a contractor I think I would find me a Indian rez that has a killer fire and RX program and buddy up. lots of $$$ in the interior dept.        mp
03/22	Ab just curious what is going to happen to those individuals that can not pass the pack test that have been in fire for many years and are permanents. I know there are individuals in the FS that have peaked my curiosity at how they could have passed the step test let alone the pack test.  Are we going to fire them if fire is their primary job and they can not pass this test. I'm waiting to see how many grievances and lawsuits come out of this. BS I've heard several statements/opinions regarding the consequences of the failure of folks being unable to pass, but haven't seen much quotable in writing.  Theory might be that they would be classified as "physically unable to perform" and thereby forced from their positions.  We'll just have to wait and see the actual results.  I kinda think the ones who want to and are still physically capable, will pass and others may be transferred or placed in some kind of "sunset" position. Before we get too wasteful though, let's remember many of those who are currently unable to pass may be victims of prior fire injuries.  For those  unaware, fires can be extremely hazardous and wearing to several parts on a persons body and they add up over time.  Although these people can still pass a five minute step test, their knees, ankles, or backs may not support them in the new test. At some point in time, after receiving their injuries, these firefighters made a decision to keep fighting fires, safe in the belief they were and would continue to be able to pass the existing physical requirements.  Would it be fair to those who fall in this category to merely fire them?  Some of these employees have over 20 years of excellent service and fire experience behind them.  Do we want to toss these veterans who have sacrificed so much on a shit pile just because they may not be the first one's up the hill?  I don't think so.  Ab
03/22	Last month I emailed a "contribution" to "they said" about a project by the Minnesota Wildland Firefighters Association which will establish an Alternative Availability List for wildland firefighters. This was in an effort to combat the practice of "sandbagging" our members (withholding their names from the national availability list without their knowledge in order to keep them around in case they are needed locally). I included my email address for those wishing to respond, linscott@rea-alp.com and I had quite a few responses, most of which were enthusiastic about the concept.  Some were individuals wondering if they could participate as a "listee", potential employees, looking for a way to make a better living as a firefighter by either working for independent contractors, or at least working more during the fire season.  Quite a few stated that MN was not the only state which engaged in the practice of sandbagging. Others were independent fire suppression contractors who were interested in the AAL as a simple way to find and contact experienced firefighters without drawing from the rolls of the areas and states for whom they depend upon for fire suppression contracts. The most suprising contacts were from the State forestry and fire suppression agencies which were interested in having access to all the resources they could muster...many of whom were caught short last year when the only resource they had was the NIFC maintained National Availability List.  Accordingly we are now incorporating provisions for two AAL's one which will go to private contractors...and one which will be available to Agencies of State and Federal Government.   I  believe that the service can be provided for a cost of $10 to $20 per season, per individual. At this time we intend to charge $10 to Minnesota Wildland Firefighters' Association  members and $20 to non members.  Since we have no provision prohibiting Non-Minnesotans from joining...and in fact have quite a few as members now from adjoining states which do not have an organization like ours to represent them...the actual minimum cost to be on the list is $15 for the first year. If my cost calculations are wrong...I have pledged to eat the overrun myself. This is not intended as a profit making venture, I have volunteered my time to develop and maintain the AAL for the first year...and in the unlikely event that there is a profit generated it will be donated to the MWFFA to support its' ongoing efforts at forming an actual prototypical  wildland firefighters union. The AAL will be emailed at no cost to subscribers for the first year...there may be a charge in the future, and of course if it proves to be a valuable resource such a charge would be justified...and could help keep the cost to individual "listees" to a minimum. You must have a current red card to become a "listee...contact me at linscott@rea-alp.com  for a registration form and further details. Please spread the word to fellow smokechasers and to potential employers...the more that participate the better the AAL will work. For further information contact me via the email address above. I hope you all have a safe and profitable season. Dana Linscott Vice-chair MWFFA
03/22	Hello all-- I've just been informed that Jim Furnish, Asst Chief of the Forest Service, will be here on our lovely campus for at least two days.  I hear he'll be speaking on careers and employment (as we know they can be two different things) with the Forest Service  and also on the direction of the FS.  I, personally, am loaded with questions for him and will be attending both events.  However, as always on this site, there are rumblings of issues that people are looking for answers to.  I definitely love to take the opportunity to put a little pressure on policy people whenever I can, so if y'all have a major issue you'd like me to try to ask about (that he might know about and be somewhat accountable for), feel free to pass it along (but very soon). Also to you FS types now taking the pack test... good luck.  And to dispatch dude:  thanks for the note about Interior folks taking it for 3 years now.  I've seen just a few people fail it, and they're the same people I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to work with.  Most park service folks have stopped whining, from what I've seen.  Also to dispatch dude--you said you heard of potential physicals for arduous work ratings. Who pays for these, and where do you get them taken?  Is this one more step to making the seasonal life even harder to coordinate?  Just wondering if anyone else has heard anything.... TO MTWO:  you sound like a person I used to know.  You're not from PA by chance, are you? One more question: I'm starting to work with the local types about coordinating some type of basic wildland training for volunteer departments and local conservation folks that is suited to the midwest, particularly the flatlands.  The basic S-130/S-190 training is more suited to working within the ICS (ie: what to take in your red pack, how to deal with fire camp, etc.) and in hilly country (emphasis on southern slope fuels being drier and hotter, box canyons, etc), so we're trying to find some sources for training that teach fire behaviour more for grasslands (and corn!) and firefighting using local-type resources (such as combines--thought you'd all get a smile out of that one...).  Anyway, no use re-inventing the wheel, so if anyone has any ideas or contacts, please let me know.  I think we're not the only midwesterners headed down this route either, so maybe if anyone's out there we could start something.  Who knows.... thanks all-- firechick  firewhirl22@hotmail.com
03/22	Smoaky----Best words of fire wisdom I've heard of in a very long time!!  warren EX ic EAICT
03/21	so who is the contracter that is not going to get the contract.. also the guy  in eastern wash  that stole all the gear . he took a medical retirement...he  needs to be in jail.. yes there is some junk out there but we as pvts need to  look over that and clean our own game up .. to eric i may not agree with you  some  times but i do respect you   ...firedoc
03/21	Ab, Contracted crews & equipment resources in R-6 are already contracted and administered at the regional level. But, they are ALWAYS dispatched at the local or zone level, just like national resources, IHC's, type II helo,s and IMT's.  Whats new in R-6 this year is that, contract crews will part of the mix of agency crews dispatched by the local host units. The dispatching all use to take place out of Salem (Oregon Dept Forestry),  now they are dispatched by local area units and will be considered part of the mix unless the RO comes across agency only. I have a hard copy of  "Policy Implications of Large Fire Management, A Strategic Assessment of Factors Influencing Costs, USDA FS, Jan 21, 2000.".  I will lurk around to find the electronic version and post. As of Friday, March 17, pack test is still the test of record. Tony @ SBA,  You mean in 26 years working for the green machine, this is the first time you've been led around in circles? Hard to believe. Quit whining thou, Interior folks have been doing it for 3 years now. Rumor I hear, is that the test will be scrapped all together next year in favor of a SF-78 like form and doctors authorization for anyone at the arduous level. That would be great because the questionnaire puts us all in a weak  position acting like MD's anyway deciding if all should go to the doctors, stress EKG's and all that crap. Dispatch Dude
03/21	Kel,  I completely agree with you on the whole media thing concerning the  Forest Service.  I'd suggest the feds take a page from the state's book.  In  northern Cal. CDF are the media darlings. The public loves them for the most  part.  Their PR people understand that public perception translates into  public funding.      Most of the public has at best a vague notion of the  "Forestry Service"  and when they do think of  the Forest service they think of smokeJumpers in  Montana or some other far off place.     Mellie,  As far as the pack tests go,  sounds like it's purpose is to  discourage older people from qualifying for line duty.  This would make sense  since every agency goes through a changing of the guard every twenty years or  so. I'm sure most twentysomething newbies see fortysomething part timers as  obstacles in their careers.  I know that sounds harsh but were any of us any  different when we started out?                       ~FireBooger~
03/21	Tony, Tony, Tony....@SBA, did you just get back from Linanes party when you wrote your little, what was it....'Horse Lick?", about the pack test. Cause it sounded like maybe...you were alittle pumped up. I don't know, the scenerio, in my mind immediately went like this, what was it..Division, BC, Capt, FPT, HS and Heli sup's, Airbase Mgr. (?) and one militia, who? You all are (500 or so) back slapping happy at the party, couldn't  pick a better place to vent about this "ludicrous" test. I don't mean to be unfair, but I wouldn't compare the L.P. to many other forests and their fire shops. You have a hotshot crew and several helitak crews. Your overhead is younger, you've all been there "together" for a long time, and the good ole boy...thing has been alive and healthy, on at least the last district you worked...was and probaley still is one of competition, it is hard to be on a forest, much less district with a shot crew...and Not Be In Shape? You guys are animals...(that was a compliment) The LP, comes with visions of helicopters on every district, night flying ones, hot shot crews, helishot crews, 5-6 engines a district, more districts...yada,yada,yada. Well not now, but once, huh?    The Step Test sucked, it was so, primed for CD, and just because you could pass it, didn't mean you could do the 1 1/2 mile run. The run..... what happened with that? Was the run, EVER, totally the only test and mandatoy?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the pack test, suppose to simulate carrying hose packs or bladder bags, not only that, but it's suppose to put your whole entire body in check,  your upper body strenth,your legs your endurance level. Not just your Areobic capacity, as with the step test, doesn't mean you can hump a pulasky for long periods of time. You say that you never in your career, carried 45 lbs and walked really fast on level ground, EVER!!! (Well Dah!) But what about carrying 45lbs  really fast on non-level, up, down and steep ground, for any length of time?   What was very interesting to me, was admitting it got you in the knees? Now admit it, with all your years in fire...you've iced them knees up before, you simply got mad that you had to do it again...must be sitting alot in your present job? Was it because of those knees?  I'd say if the pack test is hard on your knees, at level ground, perhaps that in itself is something to worry about. ?    I heard this nasty rumor, that the LP was thinking about hiring more 13-13's, so they would get the 3 chances the permanent employees are getting with the pack test, (as opposed to the one chance the temps are getting) and have them on longer, so that they can stay in better shape?   I think it would be a good thing to 'administer a real pain in the neck', phsyical agility tests put on and done by the federal firefighters in other agencies...the GS-808 (I think, don't quote me on that series). Course until the Forest Service keeps calling their firefighters forestry tech, this pack test won't be the last silly test.   Their are alot of fire shops out there, in R5, that aren't as tight, committed or as competitive as yours. There is going to be fall out, those who haven't gotten with the program are going to feel it, this test will not be easy for someone who hasn't stayed fit, and for those people who don't work in fire, but are red carded, the numbers might dwindle some, along with the tighter red card rating policys, if you don't use your quals, you loose your quals. The avaliable resource list is going to get short.      So, lets get this right, your pack test proved to you, that you are extremely physically fit, ...except those dang knees, are all beat to shit over it.    Explain to me again, why this test is so ludicrous?  mtwo Without wanting to see much more on the pack test, I've also heard physically fit folks complain about knees and "shin splints".  Some young, some old.Ab.
03/21	To Keith, Cbork, MissSZQ, Stihl on the fence, "@" and last but not least - Mellie: I saw the Honor Guard presentation this morning at the California Interagency Incident Management Team meeting in Sacramento. The presentation was professional and NONDENOMINATIONAL. The Mann Gulch memorial presentation was very well done. See... we can all get along! HELLitorch
03/21	TOO MUCH SAFETY CAN KILL YOU   It is the 50the reunion of the Los Prietos Hot Shots, the first USFS shot  crew, formed in 1949.  It is spring, a beautiful day, a beautiful time, four  generations of firefighters have come to this once in a lifetime event.  Many  see people who worked with their fathers, their grandfathers. It is Region 5, but the people come from all over.  It is a microcosm of the  agency, other regions, the nation.  It is old home week for many veterans  that will never see each other again.  Others have the majority of their  careers ahead of them.  Perhaps there are five hundred attending. I am watching and listening and happy shaking hands, strong firm hands that  have held the tools of our trade for over a half century.  How many pulaski  strokes, how many miles with a drip torch?  I feel the strength, the  heartbeat, the common inseparable bond that makes us family.  I am a veteran.   I got in when you could still fight fire.  A long time ago.  I worked with  men who were, are, legends.  They were OK.  I am OK. I look, I see that in a few short years the legends will be gone.  We will lose them.  We have not replaced them.  We now have kids with twenty years  in.  Victims of the system.  Victims?  Yes, unfortunately, sadly, victims. Before the PC consent decree system took over in the 80's, you could fight  fire.  The system now teaches you the tactical deployment of fire shelters  that go to six hundred degrees while you're in it, teaches you to think that  you can survive in the fire storm you are caught in if only you remember all  the rules.  The system teaches you to operate until you drop of heat  exhaustion in one hundred degree weather with the double layers of an arctic  explorer, teaches you how not to take action if one of the thirty eight thousand things you are required to remember pops up, how all the grains of  sand in the desert must be in just the right place before you act. The system has designed grid lock and death on the fireline.  Why not put a  body bag in there too?  Rotting corpses are dangerous.  Bugs, disease,  unsanitary condition.  Maybe a bottle of disinfectant will help. Break a rule, go to jail.  Incident Management Teams disbanded if anything  happens on their watch.  Fry the little guy. Before, a long time ago, you were trained by your mentors to think  tactically.  Safety was taught as a tactic, not a value, not a set of rules,  not some abstraction of academic leaming.  Ten Standard Orders and go.  You  were taught to anticipate, you were shown how to use your logic, your god  given wits, your experience, the experience of others to create tactical  action based decisions.  Move.  Fast.  Slow.  Backwards, forwards, sideways,  up, down, all around, hold still, all in the same instant. Not today's trench warfare on the fireline.  Next wave!  Never go downhill.  Ask someone else what to do.  Wait for orders.  Get a weather report.  You  gonna bet your life on the weatherman?  How many millibars does it take to  cook you?  Ask the weatherman. I get a call now and then.  "Hey, Smoaky, we've got a job for you!" I think,  do you have a job for me, or do you mean you need some credibility to stamp on your screwed up plans and I'm it if I want to be a whore?  Or do you really  mean it?  If I say yes, will you listen, will you make changes accordingly,  will you activate the information into tactical action?  Will it make a  difference? Or will you use me as the token that you need, the right name there so that  you can proceed with your PC bullshit that doesn't work? "I don't know", I answer, "I'll get back to you." If you were serious, really serious, you would call me and my peers and tell  us that you were serious and that you really wanted to put out the fire, or  light the fire, or save the lives.  You would tell me that beheading the  victims of the system is not working, will never work, and will only lead to  an agency(ies) that can no longer fight fire.  You would tell me that you will listen and take note when you are told the things you don't want to hear  and the true things you don't want the public and the Congress to hear. It's a risk.  And boy, we cannot take a risk because we want zero risk  firefighting and fire lighting and zero risk promotions and don't make waves.   Risk nothing and you will get exactly what you ordered: ZERO.  And it'll cost lives and a million dollars an acre. But now you know, we know, you've seen the light, you know you need to do  something in this moment of opportunity that will soon pass.  You need to  capture the expertise, the ancient wisdom that can make a difference. We can help change the damage done in the last twenty years, a generation or  two of victimized firefighters who were never passed the torch as the torch was passed to us.  The victims need help.  How many more fatal fire seasons  do we have to have? Just remember, some of us do not have many fire seasons left. Smoaky
03/21	Tate, Sorry pal I think your out of luck on finding a Texas Wildland Firefighter patch. That was a patch that I designed to give to volunteer fire fighters that completed the TFS basic wildland course. When I turned over the training program to someone else two years ago they decided to discontinue the patch. If you find one hang on to it there were only about a couple of  thousand made. In fact I don't even have one anymore. "Boo"
03/19	hey AB,   Was wondering if anyones read any reliable predictions for the 00' season.  Its probably kinda early who knows. Dispatch Dude,   your right, I was refering to the Engine/ tender agreements.  NOT the EERA. AAs for issuing a notional contract,   I am all for it,  would streamline the interregion, dispatch process.  Unfortunately i have heard rumors of this every year since i started. My thoughts are with our fallen Brother in SD Heard the "Pack Test" was suspended?  any truth to this rumor? Anyone know what happened to the VFD chief in North Central WA that was caught after pillfering tons of FS gear at wildfires over the last 5-10 years?  Heard it took a couple U-Haul rigs to confiscate the gear? After reading responses to the Contractor debate I see no sense in arguing, everyone that replys here is informedand knows that there is  good, and marginal equipment out there.  Just like in every agency. I consider myself to be one of the good guys,  so im happy with that.  One last note,  If there is crappy equipment on a fire i consider it the agencies fault.  Regardless of who holds the pink slip.   Reason?  The hosting agency is the final word.  I know for a fact that every piece of equipment going to the line is inspected at the scene.   JUNK is obvious. All the Equipment specialist has to say  is NO.   It might b a hard thing to say but more than feeling uncomfortable is on the line   If it is unsafe send it home.  If it is Marginal send it home. And there are associations that foster the kind of self regulation that was mentioned in the THEY SAID pages.  I belong to the WCFA  Washington Contract Firefighting Association, and the NWSA  National Wildfire Suppression Association.        Theres not much more i can say bout that. And to the emailer that wishes to remain anonymous thank you for the compliment. The R6 contract administrator knows about the contractor you mentioned to me.  They will no longer be eligible for a contract.  See folks the system works.   Later all Eric Pacificwildfire.com 253 460 7323 Eric, in my world, the next fire season is always going to be the best and hottest ever!  Ab.
03/19	While on an engine strike team in Tx in 99 there were a mixed bag of TFS, NPS,USFS,other state and contract engines. I am USFS employed but, was not on one of their engines. Contract engines did not have all the bells and whistles of the gov engines but were quite capable along with their crews. Same for all there except one. The sorriest of the bunch was an engine crew from r8. Nothing wrong with their rig, just themselves. All others worked as if they had trained together but there was one bad egg.  It's not always the contract guys and gals that are the problem. adftr
03/19	We missed those of you who didn't make it to the 50 th year Hot Shot reunion at Oak Grove Park just north of Ventura. Mark Linane's retirement shindig was the best thing we've EVER seen. The rank and file firefighters were showing up by the hundreds. 500 attended.  Everyone met many old friends again.  They came from all over the country-- Montana, Arizona, Hawaii, Idaho, California, Michigan, etc. Mark spent 28 years as the Superintendent of the Los Prietos Hot Shots.  That's the record-holder for time as a Supe. There were some great stories told. A BBQ apron given by JW Allendorf to Mark was a shocker. Mark even turned red.   We should have more events like this to honor our own and share with each other.   Old Hot Shot
03/19	I have been in the fire game for 17 years and had good and bad goings with  pvt contracters, mostly good .. we all in firefighting do the same job and it makes no diff if you are a govt firefighter or a pvt firefighter ..there are  good ones and bad ones.  Well I hope this year as a new pvt I can do a great job at it  and come home safe. To me it is not the money but it is a life style...stay  safe one and all .. and to mellie  are you single ...FIREDOC
03/19	"6" Thanks for keeping me honest.  A little clarification on your points:     1.  For the first 8 hours, the wages of a crewperson on an AD crew and a contract crew are about the same.  After 8 hours, the contractor is required to pay time and a half.  So you may have a point that after 8 hours, AD's may be a better value.  But once again, with AD's you need to add the cost of out-fitting and also the cost of their transportation.  (The contracted bus that stays with the crew.)     2.  The quality control problem, hopefully, will be solved by better sign-up inspections, honest performance evaluations and the contract inspectors.  As far as hidden cost of administering contracts, most of the contracting officers I have worked with find it a lot easier and quicker to administer contractor invoices rather than dealing with AD's time keeping. (A contract crew submits a single invoice for man-hours per shift while an AD crew submits a crew time report that needs to be transferred to up to 21 fire time reports.  Also with the AD's  there ususally is an equipment time report for saws and perhaps one for the transportation.)  I've spent time with the "time unit" with both cases and the contractor route is by far cleaner, faster and a lot less frustrating.     3.  The medical cost I was referring to were off-site medical bill, such as doctor visits.  Currently, most incidental medical supplies or services (aspirin, chap stick, band-aids and simple exams) are not charged to the contractor, the same as with AD's.  However, any doctor visit and/or services is paid by the contractor or their workman's comp, not charged to a fire management code.  AD's are covered by the fire management code.     4.  You are correct, and I apologize for implying that AD's are covered by unemployment insurance.  They are not. Dispatch Dude,     Yes, contractors have cost the entire year, fire or not.  But, even in a slow fire season, there is plenty of work both with private industry and with government contracts.  An a matter of fact, working on government non-fire contracts pays the crewperson a higher wage than working on fires, thanks to the Davis-Bacon Act.  (I could never understand why the govenment requires contractors to pay their employees more to do a task that they required their own FS regular employees to do!)     Finally, I must agree with you, AD's cost almost nothing when not in use. STU
03/18	Ya'll-- I am still recharging batteries here (and doing a bunch of performance requirements and hanging with my gang), but I'll help with the public and making the issues public. No one has a gag order on me...nor can I yet be threatened with the loss of my job. We do need the media behind us and I have some ideas on that. The USFS would be well advised to launch a media campaign ASAP.  <little madonna smile> Kel-- Many others have the same concerns as Tony. While in AZ, I spent time with some really buffed-out, in shape fire women who are in their 30's and early 40's and thought nothing of running 10 miles before dinner. They also had good upper body strength. But they're concerned about knees and backs and the pack test... Just thought you should know. None of them are ground pounders any longer, but they want to keep up their certs in case they need to fill in on an engine sometime. They come from one of the real fire-going forests down there where a large proportion of people are encouraged to be ready for fire and participate... Mellie
03/18	Hello, my name is Jerry Vohn.I am lurker in Phoenix .During the mid 70's I was a tto on the Coconino, I worked on the Blue Ridge district .Among my friends and coworkers were Bill Krushak and Buck Wickham .Around 1980 I became uninvolved with fire ,then in 94 I met up with a contractor and began operating a potable water tender out of Phx. Now I am a fire camp slug every chanch I get.I re ally enjoy providing water resorces and helping any way I can  .The oppertunity to get into the fire life is  something I look forward to every season.I have not been to a firecamp without meeting up with someone I have known in the past.I hope to see some of you this season. Very refreshing Jerry, or is your name really "spaghetti"?  Just kidding.  Ab.
03/18	TO DISPATCH DUDE: You mentioned contractors' costs during a slow season - insurance, vehicles, training, etc. Have you looked lately at the plans for fuels treatments and RxFire on federal lands? The work that needs doing plus the budget we have for it minus the BD crews that we don't have any more should equal some contractor work. TO CANNELLONI: Dead right on. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too often the public and the media are left out of the plan. Any successful campaign must include both! It's a lot of what's been missing in marketing the fire program! Some of the USFS F&AM folks found out last year just how this can work; the media are not always the enemy. Or enema.  FOR AB: Whoa, I guess HB pushed a button there, eh? heh heh. I agree with you, though, on the MEL topic -- some clear answer/explanation from the USFS/Chief/WO is in order here! Regarding IA as insurance, that's great, but the public and Congress aren't likely to sit still for several million dollars worth of IA sitting around or mowing the grass during a slow season. What else could they be doing though? Looked around in the woods lately? Trails, fuels, campgrounds, fire prevention work, yeah that's seen by some as grunt work, but it beats no work.  What Lundgren said -- about the difference between the amount of MEL Congress delivers, the amount requested, and the resulting potential loss of property/resources -- is the sort of information that the public would go loopy over if they understood it. That's where it becomes critical to bring in the fieldfolks, the public, and the media.  And finally, on the pack test, TO TONY: Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez, dude, try reading a thing or two and learning a bit about what's going on before you run off at the mouth like that! kelly. I did mention there's plenty of work for the IA crews, including helping clean up some of that accumulated forest litter (you know, that litter which has grown to outrageous proportions due to 100 years of FS mismanag. . . yada, yada, yada, & more b.s.).  However, it's now becoming politically incorrect to take those job opportunities away from public contractors who have the capabilities and desire to perform them.  And you certainly aren't suggesting the FS resume maintenance of public campgrounds after they've been contracted out to concessionares for many years now, are you?  I personally think the tax paying public would be perfectly happy to pay the "insurance" bill.  I admit there may be some who would rather pay hundreds of millions to have a sattelite vaporize prior to completing it's mission due to a fifth grade arithmetic error between the vendor and gov't scientists, but not many.  How'za about somebody ask the voters what they want!  Ab.
03/18	Hi everybod