DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Mar-00) Return to Archives Page
04/30	WP   was wondering if that picture was taken at the Easton Complex.   I swear it looks like the hills above the easton airstrip.     (sidenote)  when they ordered my engines,   they told me its rough country,   "better bring the four wheel drives"     when we got to the top of the mountain.  The fallers arrived in a Geo Metro!  four big guys,   with saws, and all of their gear.   They said they had to climb a couple hills full throttle in reverse to keep traction. later and have a good one. eric pw
04/30	HAPPY BIRTHDAY, FIREHORSE! Mellie
04/30	Have added Dave's pics to a new photo page, Fire3.  There is also a new pic on the Engine2 page and a new logo on the Logo2 page.  And a new vendor on the Links page "jobs" section for A1FireOut.  Ab.
04/29	Here's some pics of the Coon Creek fire that I got from a buddy over there. Pretty nasty looking convection column.  cooncreek&cooncreek2.jpg Later, Dave
04/29	Hello all!  Wandering if any one had suggestions on what to pack for, hopefully, my first trip out west.  Also a site you might want to look at or add to your links www.dfr.state.nc.us  This is the North Carolina Forest Service homepage.  Thanks David
04/29	Hey Guy's!! Coon @ss (Creek) fire is still go'in strong. 4 heavy's trying their best to  lay retardant on the ridge lines in attemps to box this bugger, but due to a  moderate cold front coming through the area, fire just changed directions  and is headed for the Fort Apache Reservation. As far I know, the two most  threatened pieces of property, Aztec LO and Murphy Ranch, has been saved,  for now anyway. Tonto Forest Sup has restricted access to the fire area to  the general population. Most of the hand crews were pulled off the line due  to extremly extreme (if that is anyway possible) fire behavior!! We were again red flagged yesterday, and an additional fire weather watch  posted today. Not so blasted hot as the last couple of days. I can't believe  we have already hit over 100* this year. We simply don't get temps that high  until the middle or latter part of May. '96 during the Lone fire (April 28  1996), we only saw temps in the low to mid 90's. Conducting basic wildland firefighting down in Black Cayon City with the  guy's and gal's of the BCCFD this weekend and next. Did a small training  fire, about an 1/8 of an acre, 1000 hr fuels burned down to white ash with  15 minutes, OUCH!!!!! Now, I've been doing this firefighting stuff for a  while, and seeing that right there scares the hell out of me!! Most of our resources (federal) are committed to the Coon. State resources  are being requested out as I write, so those of you out there in other  regions who may be deplyed to AZ, please be careful and stay well hydrated.  I hope to see some of you out there and finally get to meet!! MOC4546 and Kell, thanks for the info on the type 3 engine. Unfortunately,  it doesn't appear that I will have anytime to pursue a T-3 engine until  after the fire season. See ya' on the line!! Trailblazer Tim
04/29	Updates on the Coon Creek Fire on the Tonto, courtesy of Webgoddess News Search ® <http://cnews.tribune.com/news/tribune/story/0,1235,tribune-nation-61249,00.html   http://www.azcentral.com/news/0429fire.shtml http://www.azstarnet.com/breaking/ffe0dccd.html http://www.azstarnet.com/breaking/ffe0dc8f.html http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/000429wildfirecutA1.html (nice Sikorsky shot and a map) http://www.knxv.com/ (good video here,including shots of plumes, tanker drop, and TV archived shots of the Lone Fire) http://www.kpho.com/default.sph/kpho.class?FNC=feature__Ahome_html___1___30___23954___1___4 (okay, webgoddess-in-training, how's THAT for an example of how NOT to construct an URL???)  http://www.azfamily.com/cgi-bin/news/news50.pl?action=article&id=1815.txt http://www.12news.com/12_News/story.html?StoryID=2234 (satellite shot of smoke, tanker drops, retardant story, and OUTSTANDING photos!) http://www.12news.com/12_News/story.html?StoryID=2249 (more airtankers than you can shake a stick at)
04/29	Hang tough Mellie! As a Wildfire Behavior Specialist from Canada I know you are right. People shouldn't be in places where they have to deploy fire shelters. It's fine to be aggressive on fires that cool enough to work on but there comes a time when you have to disengage. People have to realize that safety is an attitude not a bunch of rules and equipment. I am saddened to see that the attitudes of so many people is still so mucho. It's great to have a "can do" attitude but have enough knowledge and common sense to know when it's going to get you killed. If Leaders on the fire line are asking you to do something that goes against your better judgement or is beyond your realm of experience then you better be assertive enough to start asking some HARD questions and make sure you get real answers. Don't let them discourage you Mellie your on the right track!!
04/29	To PH: There is a very good video on SC from ABC on their "Turning Point" program aired not too long after SC.  It was titled "Inferno on Storm King Mountain".  Contact your local ABC affiliate for address in New York to obtain a copy. To Hunter 45: Reference your last "Just one more time":  I had a fire up the upper ends of the West Fork Rapid river in '94 that cam close to meeting your needs.  Trail ran thru the meadow with above the trail being in a wilderness and the below the trail out of the wilderness.  Food was brought in each day by FS packstring and prepared by a fella and his family over some kind of natural gas powered cook stove.  Each night was an experience.  100+ people sitting in this meadow eating chow and watching the sunset on the other side of the valley.  Evenings the noise was stopped early (We Division Sups were the camp Mayors and had a little more latitude to make and enforce "Spike Camp" rules.  Definately one of the top five fires in my 30 years. Firehorse
04/28	RE: THE LAST POST FROM MELLIGAL: um, gee, after THAT one, what can I say? She apparently did get some precip in her neck of the woods, but here in R3 it's been the same old boring sun, day after day after day after day.  For those of you wondering if the Melliegal is really as cool as you think, the answer is yes. She was not foolin' around when she said she took a little break from FF1 -- she took a break and then some. She can play R&R better than I can. We did indeed "pop in" on AZ TRAILBLAZER and he was one busy boy, but I have to differ with her on the word "gullible." SHE IS the one who thinks it ain't in the dictionary, just ask her kids! This morning when I took her to the airport, we accidentally caught a flash on the news about a fire on the Tonto. Putting up a pretty good pile of smoke, it was, and I heard on the radio on the way back home that it had about 500 personnel on it, along with tankers, helicopters, and a pile of other resources. (The weird part was that I was gonna drive, the "long scenic way" to Phoenix and we'd have gone the Payson way, and we'd probably still be there, instead of successfully getting her on the plane to SFO.) heh heh Oh, and just by the way and stuff, when Mellie talks about shenenigans, I haven't the faintest foggiest notion what she is talking about. So there. kellygal.
04/28	just wanted to say thanks for the site!  just got back from 2 days of goldmining with a ex hotshot.  we worked the same fire together in 85 when he was on the Fulton.  Its really nice you talk to someone and realise that you know each other.  be safe. Mike:)
04/28	Hey, Tim!  I really hate to burst your bubble, but I think that you and everyone who  is in Region 5 should know how the State of California Dept. of Forestry and Fire  Protection gets rid of surplus engines.  When replecements are sent to the Ranger Units around the state, each Unit does a Fleet  Evaluation. Right now, the CDF Models # 1, 9, 10, 12, 11, and 5 are in the process of being  phased out, with the gasoline engines being removed first. Almost all of the gasoline  engines have been removed from active, reserve, or training service. When a new engine is  set to the Unit the Admin. Chief and the Fleet Manager decide which engine goes to  reserve, and which reserve engine either goes to a conservation camp, or to the Davis, CA,  CDF Fleet Center for redistribution into the State System (i.e., State Parks, Prisons, etc.) or for release to other agencies. If no other state agency shows an interest in a particular engine type, then it goes on a list for disposal from State Service. Now the engines are stored in a secured area for six months to as long as two years until a large enough group is made up to form a list. From  this list CDF lists the year, make, engine model, engine type (gas or diesel), pump size,  overall condition (very good, good, fair, poor, very poor, unserviceable), and if a specific  problem exists, and what cost the CDF places and expects for that engine. Local government fire agencies from around the State of California place their names on the  surplus equipment list, and when a list is formed it is sent out to the Ranger Units to be  passed onto the local govt. and volunteer fire departments within that ranger unit. When a  fire agency looks over the list and finds something they are needing they fill out a form giving out there agency budget, number of incidents, manpower, and the current age and  condition of their fire apparatus, along with one to three choices from the list from first  choice to last choice. The State evaluates this list of applicants based on who has the  greatest needs, the oldest equipment, thier budget, and other minor factors. Say you have two fire departments competing for a 4WD Model #5. One agency has a  1965 structure engine, and another has a 1985 structure engine, there area size and  budget are about the same. The department with the older engine, or the fewer number of engines, will probably be awarded the Model # 5. The state sets a price on what they want  for each surplused engine which can run from $5000.00 to up to $15,000.00. One  department cannot outbid another for an engine, in that it is awarded based on need. My  volunteer company eight years ago was bidding on the old Model # 5 that was at our area's CDF Station, and we are in a CDFContract county where CDF runs the County FD. We  were primed to get the engine based on our equipment inventory, budget, response rates,  area needs, and support from the Ranger Unit. Just before we were going final selection,  the county government announced the purchase of  2 new engines per year, with one going to a paid station and the other to a volunteer. We were slated to receive the second new  volunteer engine, and when that announcement was made it sent us from the top of the list right down to the very bottom. The next department asking for that specific engine recieved  it. The CDF Ranger Unit also aids the local department they are located in for evaluation sometimes as to where the surplus engine can aid in there State Responsibility Area  (SRA) in that a department within an SRA sometimes may be given a higher priority over a department outside the SRA. The only time that an engine is purchased at a surplus sale by a member of the public is when the engine is totaled in an accedent. This month a 1989 International Model # 5 that had been rolled over and had been gutted for every valuable part was sold to the public, and the only thing of value on the truck was the front and rear axles. But don't give up hope. When the local government fire agencies are done with the old CDF engine they can dispose of it how they see fit. Unlike federal excess property that has to be returned to the government after is use, the local dept. ownes the engine outright. The average life of a CDF engine sold to a local government is another 10 to 15 years once it  leaves state service, but the condition of it varies. For those of you interested, there was a 1972 CDF International Model # 9 that is being  sold by the Garden Valley FD in El Dorado County (California) through the Fire Trader  Magazine. Check there website or there most recent issue. MOC4546
04/28	To FOBSIF (Feisty Old Broad Still In Fire),  who said  "Just one more time I'd like to work with firefighters I respect,  before they retire..." You know FOBSIF, I feel you are in that same class of firefighters.  I am  sure that there are many in your circle of friends that would be proud to say  they have worked fire along side you over the past several years. You are going to get the chance to work some fire sooner than you think.  I  just returned from a camping / hiking / biking trip in central AZ (Prescott  NF).  I was up on Granite Mountain on Tuesday and saw the lizards doing their  pushups on the shady side of the rocks that day.  The whole west is hot and  dry very early this year. Just one more time . . .  I want to work a spike camp operation on a high  mountain somewhere in Montana where the camp is supported by pack train and  the morning and evening chow is cooked on an open fire by an outfitter.  That  is Wildland Firefighting! Hunter '45
04/28	For those trying to find friends, try this.  http://www.fs.fed.us/fs/directories/ Works if you know their last name! <nodding head> Mellie
04/27	Ab, Well Texas has several fires going in West texas at this time. There were about 20 lightning fires in the Davis Mountains, and there is a fire coming onto the Big Bend NP from across the border. We have sent some misc. overhead to Big Bend from USF&WS, a couple of engines to Florida, and a helibase manager to Michigan. Also was told R-3 had al their air tankers committed on the Tonto NF. Pack your bags. I think we are officialy off to the races for this year. "Boo"
04/27	Hi Curtis!!  Great to see that you're alive and kicking, but most  importantly, not lurking.  Thanks for the kind words, the feeling is mutual.   I looked for your Lotus address today when I had a few minutes but couldn't  find it.  Are you still FS?  I'll look a little harder tomorrow.  Don't  worry, we'll hook up.  Till then, take care. Tom Ab, you can delete this part.  Hope this is ok with you to post.  I haven't  had much time lately to do anything but work and I wanted to let Curt know  I'd seen his message.  Soon as we get connected we'll get out of your hair  with this kind of stuff.   Thanks, Tom I'll leave the last part in Tom, just to let folks know I don't mind passing along message/address requests to help bring old/lost firefighter friends back together.  Since this site is non-profit and public service oriented, it just seems fitt'in.  Don't worry though, I NEVER release email address or any other info without the owner's written permission.  Ab.
04/27	Mellie, Thanks a lot for not taking CDF guy at his/her word. Keep posting, keep asking questions. I know I ask too many myself. I know you and everyone who reads will learn from it. adftr
04/27	Lo ab.    Drove from seattle to Winnemucca last week.   Had some engines inspected. from what I saw,   the plains from Yakima through to Ontario are pretty dry. As is the desert in northern Nevada.   Saw an engine I fell in love with, It was Nevada Forestry' freightliner FL70 type 4X   engine.   Incredible! cost a couple huindred grand im sure but looked tough as nails. If any one has access to this rig please get some pics, so We can copy the body.  and build one of our own.  Ill pay for the pics, and dimensions!!!!!! Good to see mellie wasnt run off.  I enjoy your emails mellie. Catch you all later,   and be safe Eric Pacific Wildfire
04/27	I'm trying to locate any video of the Storm King Mountain, Colorado fire.  If there is a documentary type video that would be even better. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, PH
04/27	Ok, for the latest on R-3, Lots 'O' activity to report. Past 24 hours reporting 11 fires with a total  of 1600+ acres. Just out my station door I can see  the Coon Creek Fire on the Tonto  National Forest, which just went to a Plumn Dominated state as I write this.  Tanker 00 on their way to Chico (Areo Union) for a quick maintenance  somthing or other. I haven't seen this kind of fire behavior since 1996 on  the Lone Fire. So the question is; is R-3 going to have another season like '96? In my honest opinion, most likely. If we continue to get a little moisture  every other week, we probably wont be too busy, but as reported by Mellie,  when her and Kelly made an unannounced, but well recieved visit, to my fire  district (thanks for the hug Mellie!! :~) the local fuels here in NOrthern  AZ are VERY primed and ready. Our Trucks are up and ready, well manned, and currently on high alert  (standby) for Eastern Yavapai County. We have had 3 red flag days in the  last 2 weeks (low RH and SW winds) and seems we have a fire weather watch at  least once a week now. Half of our local FS resources have been deployed,  and our local type 2 overhead team is gone! I LOVE IT!! Hey, question for the group. Our edeavors to purchase a type 3 engine fell  through by way of our fire borad, due to the fact that I was only able to  find one from the north east, and of course there were concerns about the  potential rust. Can anyone out there direct me to the folks who auction off  or sell used type 2 or 3 engines. I know CDF auctions some of there engines,  but No one here knows who to contact. PLEASE, I need help!! Stay safe!! AZ Trailblazer (the other Tim) ________________________________
04/27	Ab, Mellie, AZ Trailblazer, Kelly, and et all...   Ab, thanks for keeping me from shooting myself in the foot all this time. I owe ya...several times over... All right, first to all: Those who were concerned the pup had thrown in the towel.. don't be.. that's my strong melodramatic side.. call it the gift of the Leo or something, but I can be dramatic.. too bad I dislike theatrics. So, I'll still be here plodding along for the one year and two months left in high school, working on writing and reporting, and getting into better hiking shape for a 50 mile mountain trek my troop is taking next year. Thanks to all who helped and were supportive of the peice posted here. To those curious.. that IS the final form. If I change it I'd have to re-write it all. I'm proud the way it is.. instructor's merking down or not. First to Mellie... I warned you bout picking on AZ didn't I? You have too much of a conscience or something like that. Now you two kids kiss and make up.. (oh my...I sound like my mother! AGGGGH) AZ 'Tim' Trailblazer.. I hope the two girly ladies didn't leave you with too many answers to too few questions. (Bonus point if you figure out what that means!) Kelly, I'm ignoring grammer in postings once again thanks to your enlongated lessons. Sorry for being dense in some regards...and denser in others.. Who said being headstrong was a bad trait? Not I, and definitely not you. All right, well I'm looking at more rain up here in the Washignton... well on this side of the mountains. We had some T-storms roll through the Cascades last night, but I don't think anything was set off... Take care all, and have a safe season. Tiny, the R-6 Fire Pup
04/26	How's this fire season look. The reason I'm asking is that my nephew  wanted to know where would be his best chances of traveling and getting some  good O.T.  He's been doing it about 5 years. Mid 20's.  Kind of a mercenary.  Hard worker. Good head on his shoulders.     Which hotshot crew has the best chance of getting in on any early season  action in the southwest?    While I'm on the subject, Does region 3 look like it will burn as much as  96? Because it was a lot of fun then.                                 ~JAFO~
04/26	Hi All, Hi Abercrombie! Great to hear from you Curtis. Not too hard to post, is it? Please toss in your $2 worth. I'd certainly appreciate it. Hope your forest is not too dry. Those others who lurk, we'd like to hear from you, too! It's easy and your identity stays as secret as you want!  We got some rain in my neck of the northern CA woods so maybe I'll get a chunk of work done next week after all. Not quite ready for summer fire.  R5 Engine Captain, welcome back! <hug> I thought maybe you were gone forever. You haven't written in a while and I've missed ya! This week, I've been having a little break from FF1 and my usual location and activities. Got together with Kelly and another friend and we headed here to Arizona on vacation. We popped in on Trailblazer Tim on the way to Prescott yesterday. Kelly had been holding out on me about knowing Tim! <she's a brat!!!> We got it in our heads that she should introduce me as her Cousin Rita. Just about the time Tim figured out who I really was and had a hug, he had to run off to answer a call for medical aid to Black Canyon City. (Oh well, and you seemed like you'd be such a good hugger, too.) Tim, Tim, Tim I tried to visit as you said I should!!! I know ya still think Kel is joshing you, especially after we introduced our guy friend as AB, but I'm for real! Kelly's for real. Uhuoh, too many shenanigans! <big grin> Kelly says shenanigans NOT, just natural consequences of finding someone so gullible as you. (FYI, I am equally as gullible!) It's really dry here in Region 3: fuel moistures around Prescott are between 60-70% and chaparrel burns readily at anything below 80%. Serious wildland/urgan interface problems! Today it was about 90 in the shade. Warmin' up!!! Hope folks out here stay safe! Hope ya'll are all having a good spring! Thanks for being part of my family! Mellie
04/26	Well, here goes...long time "lurker" first time emailer.  What a great site & forum!  Especially in these trying times. Gives all of us a "pressure relief" area if that is what is needed....first things first: Tom, Your response to Tiny on 4/12 is a reminder of why I admired you and considered you a true friend during our TFM days.  Sorry we have lost contact since then.  I am back in R5 now and would like to hear from you...look me up on the Lotus Notes data base to get my number( I will do the same).  I have a picture of you, me and Eric after our final presentation in Portland that is worth 10,000 words!  Hope to hear from you. Millie, You are another person I admire just from your postings and enthusiasm you bring to the forum.  As a member of the committee that put together the DC workshop in Reno, you created quite a stir when it was discovered a "private citizen" was attending the workshop and not only that but sitting in the front row and taking notes! Oh My God...what will we do???  What group is going to slam us now?  Only if ALL the attendees were as enthusiastic!  I have 28 years, 3 regions & 4 forests behind me and maybe 4 more years in front, and your level of enthusiasm is what I hope for in myself and my fellow firefighters.  Keep on asking the questions, tough & easy and provide the answers when you have them. AB & et al, ditto and great forum.  Thank you for your efforts.  Now that I am not a "TheySaid" virgin any more, I will try to throw my 2 cents worth in once in awhile. Curtis
04/26	I guess that I have been away from the site for way too long . . . Thanks AB for the posts, its the most interesting reading I've gotten in a bit, (getting and giving training). I for one appreciate those who can express thier passion for this business, some times mine clouds mine eyes. Especially when giving a presentation on fatalities, or extolling the virtues of look up look down look around and LCES (or LACES, I luv that concept), and of course the understandable feeling I have for the successfull Initial Attack! To Mellie: remember the one thing I tell all of the folks I give fire training to . . . " There is no such thing as a dumb question, the only dumb thing is having a question and not getting an answer." To cdf engine guy: <snip> Idle back a bit may be appropriate but keep your mouth shut?? Enthusiasm is the thing there guy and all of the folks that have admitted it are ringing true. I was, still am, but with the reservation gained through many years of experience. I never, ever squelch questions, put them off for a bit if the situation warrants but never squelch 'em. If thats the environment you work in then you need to take a second look at YOUR situation. Well off of my soapbox for now. Its prescribed burn season, WCT's, training and preseason readiness. Thank you god for the rains, its way to early to go for fire camp and 14 day assignments! You All be safe! I'm going to try to keep up a bit more so's I'm not so late in posting. And hopefully get some good pics in soon too! R5 Firecapt
04/25	We are a company that offers wild land firefighting gear such as line packs, and chest packs.  We would like to be added to your list of links. You can link us at www.thielsen.net. Thank You Jim at Thielsen Outdoor Gear gear@thielsen.net
04/24	Tony,  I heard you may be back in the greens come the first week of May.  Its about time!  Take it easy on those young-uns going up the hills.
04/24	I've really enjoyed the recent discussions on fire training, instructor  quality, women in the fire service, and fostering the enthusiasm that new  folks bring to our business. The Angeles NF just completed their sixth Wildland Fire Explorer Academy,  which ended with an awesome graduation April 16th.  The graduating class included 33 young men and 1 woman, whose ages ranged from 16-22 years of age.   The lone female kicked ass, and dusted many of the guys in the class.  She's  a petite, highly enthusiastic person, who loves this work.  She was voted  "most inspirational" for this graduating class. The academy provides 96 hours of classroom and practical training.  Two of  the most heavily emphasized courses are S-190 and S-130.  These two courses  are FUNDAMENTALS they must learn in order to understand this business. The classroom time is really a struggle for them, especially the "cold  fronts" part of S-190 (or what WP called wind shifts).  But, we make sure  they get to apply the principles in the field, and they grasp it right away  after that.  We can't simulate the wind shifts though. I love working with these young people.  They want a job--ANY JOB--in the  fire service.  Their enthusiasm is contagious.  It reminds me of why I work  for this outfit (FS).  Altho, I was taken aback a little when I first talked  about when I began my FS career in 1978, and they all whisper, "I wasn't even  BORN yet!"   Now I just laugh with them and remind them that the alternative  to being "this old" is being "dead".  I'm perfectly happy being "this old". One of my favorite stories to tell these folks is about my first job as a  temp on an engine (back then it was a Model 51).  Since I was the first woman  on that module, I was always given the job to "scrub hose".  I noticed that  none of the guys ever had to scrub hose, so I questioned it.  I was told  that's all women knew how to do (it was like scrubbing floors), so that was  my job.  My response was, "since guys don't know how to do it, they need the  practice..."  I eventually got reassigned to the hot shot crew.  I think they wanted to scare me off.  But I carried my own weight (and them some, being a  woman and a member of one of those "underrepresented groups"). I want to thank MTWO for his/her comment on women in the fire service.  I got  my job before the whole "consent decree" action.  Bernardi had already filed  her EEO complaint that eventually resulted in the class complaint.  It took  10 years to deal with that initial complaint (complaint filed in 1971--CD  implemented in 1981).  Nobody ever questions if the reasons for going into  the class complaint were valid.  They just focus on how badly the Forest  Service implemented the damn thing. Bernardi's complaint would have stayed limited to her IF those problems were  limited to her experience.  But they weren't.  Bernardi's complaint was about  TRAINING, and how she kept training new guys and they got promoted while she  kept getting passed over for promotions.  It became a class complaint because  it wasn't just happening to Bernardi. Fudgie's talk about how he was able to hire the Lizzy Lake engine foreman job  many moons ago happened all the time.  No one ever questioned that.  Why? Stop and think about someone in your past who was a good firefighter and  someone who was not.  Unfortunately, minorities and women represent their  "group".  When one fails, they are held up as an example about how "they"  can't do that work.  When a non-minority male fails, he's just a bad  firefighter/employee.   Everybody knows good and bad firefighters.  How do  you react to them? I'm going to quote a veteran firefighter friend of mine.  He says, "Some  people have 20 years of experience.  Some peope have 1 year of experience  they repeat over 20 years..."  This is so true. I'm still in fire, although the FS pays me to do another job until the fire  bell rings.  I love my work.  Wildland fire IS ADDICTIVE, I have no doubt  about that.  I think my adrenalin will always go up when there is a red flag  alert, smoke on the horizon, or the fire bell rings, no matter how old I get! Just one more time I'd like to work with firefighters I respect before they  retire...  That's real soon for some of my best fire buddies. FOBSIF (Feisty Old Broad Still In Fire)
04/24	Yet Another Tim--I read your post last night while I was late-night lurking, and it sounds amazingly and exactly like a story I heard coming from a state near you.  Either we know some of the same people, or this happens way more than it should.  I'm hoping it's the first.  You're right about the solution--to be heads up and to try to be a good leader- I hope I can fit the bill.  It's ironic though that the hand-up that some agencies seem to give women & minorities, sometimes fortunately and sometimes not, has often put them in the very position were they were before--having to prove themselves all the time and work twice as hard.  I knew it going in, though, and I think it forces me to try to do an excellent job when I know everyone's watching.  Some people, I think, could use that extra bit of pressure.  Can't say I always succeed, but you have to learn somewhere, and you don't improve unless you get out there. MTWO--great to hear the CDF story as well.  I've not heard the history of how these things happened in other agencies.  It's good to see that some folks do realize it's the agencies who are to blame for "IT" and not the women themselves.  I for one would much rather be hired because I've worked worked hard in fire and have accumulated enormous student loan debts (and knowledge, of course... I hope...) to get where I am now, but I can't say that I wasn't once hired as the token female.  Can't say that's a good environment to be in either, by any means. Mellie--you can bet I'm not changing the accursed thesis at this point, but it would be a great study for someone, especially in studying education or training.  Personally, I think NWCG could use a few more of these folks on their teams of people who plan/write fire training courses.  Some of them could use a little improvement, and maybe then it wouldn't be so hard to learn about wind shifts associated with a frontal passage.  The more I study fire, the more I see opportunities for research outside of just the fire behaviour stuff.  Seems to be studying the wildland fire community would be a lot more interesting than a lot of the other "stuff" you see coming out of universities.  I'm biased, of course.  My thesis is on "completeness" (working on a better word) of fire incident reporting in the media, focusing on an urban interface area.  The idea is that humans' involvement with and impact on huge fire "disasters" isn't acknowledged, and people won't stop doing silly things in the urban interface, etc. until the problem is acknowledged.  Sort of.  It's mostly to see what makes the news (running crown fires, people's houses burning down) vs. what doesn't (the house next door that didn't burn down, surface fire that's not so exciting, etc.).  I'll let y'all know how it turns out if and when it ever gets done.  Looks like it's going to at least be spread out over another fire season at least.  rochelle
04/23	hey ab .. do you know of a list of foam that has been baned by the feds .  they say some of it is toxice.. thanks steven I'm not too current on the subject, but know that Firetrol was recently placed back on the ok list after a suspension.  You can find more information here:  http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml along with a couple other links on the subject.  Ab.
04/23	Ab     First and foremost I would like to thank you for this site!  It's a must read for me every time I get online, right behind the sitreport.  I've been lurking for quite a while, and have finally decided to jump in with a comment or two.  The recent postings dealing with aggressive firefighting vs safe firefighting have really touched a nerve with me.  Let me first state that I always try to keep safety in the front of my mind, on every assignment, fire or not, and I feel that as a firefighter and a leader, safety is the number one priority for me.  Let me also say that I believe every federal and state agency has done a very good job training firefighters to be safe.  But have they done too good a job?  Has the emphasis on safety downplayed the importance of aggressiveness, especially in initial attack?  Sadly I'd have to say yes.  A few examples will highlight my reasoning.  While assisting another agency in my local area, I've witnessed IC's decide that a fire burning at 0200 in light pine litter with 1 foot flame lengths was "too hot".  I've seen the same agency refuse to allow firefighters to IA a fire approximately 1/2 mile easy walking from a road because the terrain was "too steep and dangerous to attempt to walk in at night".   In Texas a couple years ago I watched in angry amazement as 2 engine bosses from my strike team argued that the safest way to deal with a spot fire that had jumped the line was to leave the black, drive acrosss the draw and watch the fire.  It should be noted that we would have had 100 yards of flash fuels in between us and the fire.  I'll stop there, although I could fill a book with stories like that.  Of course, I could also fill a book with stories of overly aggressive firefighters almost getting burned by totally disregarding safety.  What I'm saying is the same thing BW said,  "Aggressive attack and safety can both be accomodated ."  But, aggressiveness has to be emphasized along with safety.  Aggressive initial attack keeps fires small,  and a small fire smoldering at night is much safer than the same fire the next afternoon at 100+ acres and rolling.  Just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth and maybe roil the waters a little bit.  :)                                                          R1Fireguy
04/23	Mellie,be like a sponge,absorb everything good and bad,and then separate the good from the bad, always ask questions, one day it might save your life and the life of your fellow firefighters.You will find out through out your fire career that you will never have all the answers for situations that come up on the fire line,keep your head up and be positive.Roady
04/23	hey all!  its been raining like hell here so there wont be too much action  any time soon. i wish there was a structural site like this. anyways, i have  been trying to get hired by the New Jersey Forest Fire Service. since i am  37, the opportunities are getting slim. it doesn't look good. it seems that i  don't have " friends" in high places! so too the people who are looking for  work in this business, don't give up! the jobs are out there if you look hard  enough. i wish i lived out west where the opportunities are. do it while you  are young! i am no old fart but it gets real hard once you get past 35.     i am looking forward to stand side by side fighting fire with you folks  from the west.   BC Davis
04/22	MTWO, Trust me, your blasting of my posting did not keep me off line. I have been  hammered by some pretty salty old dogs in person for my opinionated  expressions. A little lambasting by an anonymous, cyberspace individual or  two or three is not going to dent the crusty old shell! On the contrary, I  would hope that you continue to express your opinion both in this forum and  to anyone with whom you disagree in person!! No apologies are  needed........Tony @SBA
04/22	Dear Rochelle, Glad to hear of your decision to continue both with your degree program and with fire. I was very interested to hear of your observations regarding S-190 and S-130 taken by Job Corp and agency personnel, and the impact of experiences and learning styles on an individual's ability to learn the material. Have you considered doing your thesis on these kinds of questions? Elucidation of learning processes in a person's acquisition of this kind of information could be a great contribution to the fire services. As our current fire force retires, it will be more and more important for individuals, even at the entry level, to know about fire behavior and how to stay safe while fighting fire aggressively. We need fire folk such as yourself who are interested in studying these issues so that such courses can be taught more effectively.  I've left my e-mail address with Abercrombie and asked him to forward any response you might have to my post. Perhaps we could talk about this if you're interested. Mellie
04/22	Tiny Loved what yu wrote.  Keep going,  I'd love to read the finished product. Mike:)
04/22	mellie,       keep on asking the hard question! its the way you learn. i have pissed  people before by asking questions that seem to go against the grain. it seems  that you are catching some flack but if you don't ask, how will you know? it  seems that every agency adds a twist to the federal standards. get use to it!   to those folks who got pissed my her questions- lighten up! I am sure you  all have asked things that seem outlandish. you know what they say about  opinions.........                   BC Davis
04/22	Just like to say thanks to the Jumpers out of Boise for taking time to help  with training, Larry & Carrie in prescribed fire in the Grand Canyon. Ed Van Steinburg Harpers Ferry National Park Service.
04/22	Rochelle,  my experience with women in fire includes both kick-butt firefighters and severely dangerous individuals.  One supervisor was expedited through the system with virtually zero fire experience, put in charge of a strictly operational crew, and nearly killed us on three separate occasions.  We could only count on seeing her backside going to "patrol" the dead black every time a tree torched.  No exaggeration.  Since she was both a woman AND minority (excuse me, I meant person of an under-represented ethnicity) she was untouchable.  Regardless of the crew complaints, documented safety violations, and poor performance evaluations, she could not be removed.  I'm not sure what became of that situation, I left that sinking ship like any good rat. I've been pushed to hire diversity candidates over some better qualified white guys.  Some folks see seasonal firefighters as a convenient method to increase quotas for the rest of the agency.  Also been told "don't bother applying for that position/training/program" because I happen to be in possession of a penis.  I'm really not bitter (just sound that way), and try to give everyone a fair shake on the fireline.  -HOWEVER- I'm not alone in these experiences, and it means a woman who's an average firefighter isn't always taken as seriously as her male counterparts.  A woman who's an outstanding firefighter will go far, but many will question the reasons for her advancement.  One of my fellow engine crew leaders (that's what we call a Captain in the desert wastelands of Utah) is an excellent firefighter, but I see her fight the "I know how YOU made it here" battle constantly! I dont' mean to be discouraging, sounds like you've made the best possible life decision.  I think the best way to combat the male attitude backlash of these rapid advancement programs is to be a heads-up firefighter and admirable leader.  I'm also moving back to CA next month, hope to see ya'll. Mellie,  the response by CDF engine guy is, unfortunately, also quite common in the feds.  Particularly among the third and fourth year folks.  I can appreciate your enthusiasm, since we require fresh eyes to take a hard look at our programs.  When I first turned to the dark side of the force, a forester from NM explained that bureaucracies can only change significantly from the outside.  The people in positions to make changes are so firmly entrenched that they have the most to lose.  Pretty wise for a tree painter. AZ Trailblazer,  our area warden from Utah State Lands and Forestry told me they will also be following the fourteen day rule, primarily because the people he sends out are usually married to federal resources on crews or strike teams.  Don't know yet about the Flame-N-Gos or contractors.  And, yes, I also believe this new policy sucks crap of the dog. Tiny,  me farfighter and don't wryte too goodly.  Many sorries. Yet another Tim
04/22	CDF Trainer, In regards to the"falling" issue in your post to Mellie...Last week myself  and another FS Faller from the Los Padres NF had the pleasure and honor of  being invited to help instruct CDF's version of S-212 on the SLO Ranger Unit.  The CDF instructors who put on the class are highly competent fallers as well  as firefighters.  I thoroughly enjoyed the instructors, the way the class was presented and the  students who were very attentive and willing to learn. I would hope this type  of interaction between the agencies continues as it fosters good will and  interagency cooperation where it is needed most...on the fireground! Tony @ SBA
04/22	Wow what a great forum you have here, I'm glad I found this. I'm up way too late "lurking" as you say, but had to say hi.   I spent 5 of the best summers of my life stomping through the hills here in  So. Cal. with the FS. Unfortunatly, like a lot of others, endured budget  cuts, shortened seasons, lack of sending "JAC" candidates, etc....  And then  pushing 30, with a new baby, sad to say it was time to hang up the White's. I  went back full time to my "winter" job as a carpenter, worked steady and got  the bank account back up.    It's been 3 years now, and I miss it every day. It was the only job that I  woke up in the morning happy, knowing I had to go to work. Was it the right  choice? I'm not 100% sure. My bank statement looks better now, spend more  time with my son, and home on his b-day, instead of some hillside on the Klamath.  Yea, but those times on the Klamath! Memories I'll never forget.      Mellie, you mention the addiction?  You got that right! We all have it to  some extent, some more than others. Why else would we enjoy waking on a cold  dewey mornings in a paper sleeping bag to go sweat in the smoke for 14 hours?  I still have it and I'll always remember the great times, and I'll never have  to wish that I "would of liked to have done that".   Ask lots of questions,  be informed, follow your dreams.   Anyway, I've got a great lounge chair out back pointed towards the San  Bernardinos for when the tankers start circling, and you never know, I've  still got at least 1 more season of tread on those White's.  Have a safe season...... may get a little warm    "G" Get them damn spiders outt'a yer Whites and contact the closest hotshot crew to see when you can start work.  Christ, the very idea that you would worry more about financial security, your home, your family, your future. . .make me respect you as a person, "G".  I hope you have a pool in front of your lounge chair in the back yard so's you can take a cooling dip as you watch the airtanker runs and remember what it's like to be cutt'in line up those hills.  "Yes indeedy", you can tell all your carpenter friends as you fire up the barby and enjoy another cold one, "I used to do that for a living"!  They'll raise their eyebrows and perhaps smile, ask a couple questions. . . but they won't understand.  Ab.
04/22	The second, I read the CDF Engine Guys post, I thought "IT", but backed off from saying anything.  But then Rochelle, got me to thinking.  (The last time I blasted off, over Tony@SBA and the pack test, he hasn't come back on line, that wasn't my intention, please except my apologies.) I have a tendency to run with emotion...and then do alot of apologizing later, sorry.    Anyway, my first thought about the CDF guy, was....(another,  "Whank boy" ) his problem with Mellie, isn't that she is outspoken, but that she is Female!  The real hostility here, sounded to me, like it wasn't what she was asking, but that "SHE" was asking it.     CDF, saw the writing on the wall, during Genie Bernardi's pre-consent decree lawsuits and started adding women to fire before, the forest service, was forced to. Women who worked their way up the CDF ladder ( generally speaking ) in the 1970's and 1980's...did it the right way, they earned it...(keep in mind I'm speaking ... in broad general terms...there are exceptions) The forest service, ignored the court mandated consent decree and when, after, the 5 years they were given  to increase their numbers from something like 10 percent to 43 percent...they came up with an increase of  less than 4 percent. The court said, "Excuse me, but you must not have been listening..." Then they found them in contempt and gave them an additional 3 years to beef up those numbers. And beef up they did, they came up w/the JAC program, and with upward mobility & accelerated development positions and they crammed women, and later minoritys down the throats of many and took opprotunity away from the many, many deserving men out there who had worked hard and thought that they would be rewarded for their efforts. Alot of folks, got walked on, but...it takes a real man, a real person, with a fair and honest heart to Not, take it out on the females but the agency who did everyone wrong.    CDFer, you sound like a boy scorned, and better yet, from your own quote,"So i need to tell you from some fire folks that are near." You appear to be just the messenger, seems those fire folks that are near, are also using you to be their kick dog, since they themselves don't have the cajones, to jump in and say what they think of Mellie, themselves.   I don't think what Mellie has written in her postings, have made her, look like a know it all, an expert or a pro. In fact they have shown, that she is articulate, expressive, intelligent, sensible, logical, comprehensible and rational. Unfortunately, your posting shows quite the opposite.    I worked for the USFS for years, but now I also work for CDF, and if anyone ever spoke to me the way, you just spoke to her, telling her to Back off, Slow down, Keep your mouth shut...you'd be on your ass, as well as off  my crew. You better do some rethinking here son, or you will never be anything more, than the engine crewperson, you appear to be.   I for one, would like to know, why it is you are so pissed off? That she was invited to dinner with so and so, and you weren't? Now, "That Scares", me.  MTWO....
04/22	This posting may be a little late, but concerning the high failure rate of  some students in S-190.  I have taught the course many times over the past  years and the one concept that I have difficulty in teaching is wind shifts  associated with a frontal passage.  I would bet that is where most of the  people taking the course are failing.  If you live or have lived in the  Midwest, the concept should be easily understood, because weather patterns  have no geographic barriers to disrupt air flow.  But where terrain masks and  redirects air flow depending on location, people who have not lived and  worked in these areas all their lives have a difficult time understanding the  wind shifts. In my classes I ask what happens to the wind at a certain time of day, which  direction the "weather" comes from and if there are any other weather  conditions unique to their home area.  I then relate local conditions to  frontal passage and seem to be successful in relaying the concept.  But the  most important things I try to teach is one: know your local weather and  where the winds come from, and two: if you are away from home fighting fire,  talk to a "local" about "their" weather. WP Never too late for good info WP!  Ab.
04/22	hi Ab. don't worry mine isn't full of a bunch of belly achin,"holly" never in my life, any way people we are in the middle of burn season, no  stories? well I tell you mine.We just finished 1000+ acers this week all helitorch and hand, we had great burn off, top elevation was 5000, bottom1500  last week we did 900 gonna be a good fire season here in northeastern washington state,oh ya the next time you flat landers are out here fighting fire, when you are walking up one of our mountians for about an hour, think about the step test then see how much you have on your back and I will garuntee you it won't be 45lbs?  later all be safe    mp
04/22	Reality time now folks.  Something that I was taught 20 some odd years ago about fire.  It's so great getting started, But remember that most Firefighters die between there 2nd and 12 year.  This is from structual training,but I've realized it applies to the wildland side also.  Rare instances (are) that someone with mega years of experince dies on the line.  Don't get down on Mellie to hard CDF ENGINE Person, remeber that you had that same enthusiam when you got BLESSED by fire! I"ve known people I feel had mega experince and they died on the line.  But I know by their performance in Colorado, that he did save lives.  Some of you people know who I'm taking about.  Bless your soul brother!  Anyway, Miss Mellie don't let this individual give you any crap.  I met you at Div. Chief 2000 and I may have some stories that will help you on your assignment.  AB knows my addy if you need it again. Eric:  have had a few people contact me re: work:  There in your neck of the woods not mine.  rmmcgee@onemain.com (I think, new server) or try rmmcgee@jps.net thanks for the time Ab.  please spell correct as you see fit.  If I'm not mistaken Mellie is doing something about stress re: firefighters.  If so tell her that I got some great stuff for her! Thanks again Ab.  Please edit as proper sir. but I think you get my drift.  (on the addys, my server just changed hands, should be the first one not sure.) Mike I'll fix your post a little, but I ain't heat'in up your MRE's, nor making coffee for ya.  Ab.
04/22	Hi Ab You ask(ed) me if there were differences in foremen during my first five years vs. my last 5 years. That would be the period 1953-1958 and 1980-1985. Understanding that there are exceptions throughout, these are my observations.  I'd say in the fifties the foremen had less performance standards and accountability for themselves and their crews. Most foreman were financed most of the year with the rest of the crew as seasonal. Training standards were not used to the extent that they were in the eighties. The foremen of the eighties had to deal with year round management of their key people because of extended financing. Also there were training and performance standards to be concerned with. Selection for promotion was more informal in the fifties. When I wanted to fill the Elizabeth Lake Engine Foremans position I called the person I wanted on the phone, on another district to see if he wanted the job. When he said yes, I called his FMO and said I understood that Pat wanted to move to Elizabeth Lake and take the foremans job. Dates were agreed to and the move was completed. I didn't look at rosters, read performance appraisals and the like. I think the movement to competion for vacancies has done alot to improve the system, break down clans and overall has resulted in a better organization. Ab, I hope this info is informative. Please post or delete as you see fit. Fudgie I want to post it.  Ab.
04/22	trailblazer,    concerning commitments and contractors.   We too are required to meet the same federal standards.   Went through My RFQ  (request for Quotation)   and see that we are limited to a 21 day stint.  easy to take careof though on our end.   As we know when we are approaching the 3weeks and can bring in fresh people. Mellie   i enjoy your letters,   dont be discouraged.   I am sure you know your limits.   as long as you know them your safe. later and have a good one eric pw (Posted a little later) one other note,   I have an engineering background.   Almost all of the studies I have read stress the fact that Shelters are dsigned for radiant heat protection, and a minimal amount of direct flame contact protection. No matter how prepared we are out therer,   accidents will happen,   weather changes unexpectadly.   We all know the risks going in,   and unfortunately less people aill come out than go in. Short of wearing Kiln entry suits, into a wildfire,  there isnt much more we can do?    I mean we already get some of the best forecasts available,   we have overhead with decades of experience,   Accurate maps, and good gear. I think ( my opinion only) is that we are probably approaching the limit of safety possible.  Just as the airlines have approached their maximum safety level,   so has wildland firefighting.      there are still going to be crashes.   and unfortunately there are going to be deaths firefighting. just my opinion folks
04/22	Hi Ab I'm glad you had a chance to expand on your comments regarding, following the ways of the seventies. What your saying makes alot of sense and follows some of my observations too. In your reply you asked me if I was around since the 70's, do you remember your first five fires? How safe were you, how good was your supervisor? How do they compare to your last five fires?  I started in 1953 and retired in 1985. Let me tell you though, some of the negatives that you mentioned in the seventies were around big time in 1953 and for too many of the following years, with exceptions of course. Yes, I remember a couple of my first five fires and one of my last five too, I also remember special fires in between like the Magic, Sundance, Corn Creek, Marble-Cone and some lesser fires we hooked at less acres because we made good decisions, had some luck and the right people at the right place at the right time.  I remember my supervisors too. Some for me were better than others, and all but a couple had the interests of the Forest Service foremost in their actions and minds. My first fire as an employee was with Tony Cambis in July of 53. He was a patrolman and I was a crewman on the engine. For some reason the foreman was on a day off and Tony was covering the engine, with me as the only crewman. I'd been on a month or so with no training, much like your initial rememberances of the seventies. We went to a fire in Little Tujunga Canyon at Gold Creek. One thing stands out on that fire and that was, Hugh Masterson, alone on initial attack fired and held the south side of the Gold Creek road and singlehandly kept the fire from going farther north into roadless national forest land. Hugh was a real fire god and one of my future uncles, who could kick my butt and praise me in the same breath. My early fire uncles also included, Verdie White, Fred Tyler, Tex Strange, and T.L. Biddison.  For my second fire the foreman was back but still no training. When we arrived at the fire above Monrovia we got off the red 1940 cabover Ford., milled around and stared while the fire below us headed our way. Non training was kicking in. Foreman told us to get our plastic hard hats on and be ready to work. I put one on that had the letter F in front. No one on the crew knew including me that the F stood for foreman. However a county chief did and gave me the assignment for the crew. I passed it on to the foreman and we went to work after I swapped hats with the foreman. Fortunately for me anyway, I got promoted after two months to TTO or Tanker Operator and started working for a foreman who trained and expected performance. I won't go into the rest of 1953 but there were lots of fires and lots of assignments culminating with the Fish Fork, Barrett and a fire just to the west that went over Christmas and into the new year. My last five fires were 32 years later and I was a forest AFMO. I can remember my last one. I went, not because I was needed, but because I figured it would be my last one. I was getting nostalgic then and not sure if I really wanted to retire. I remembered the old friends, the smell of coffee in the morning, the siren announcing get up time and I wanted to be part of it, just one more time. Then the next day I was driving down the road realizing , that's all folks. In regard to safety. I never made a decision that resulted in a fatality or major injury. I did pull a couple stunts that could of got folks hurt, but realized in time what we were doing was wrong and pulled out. Fred Tyler was my boss when I was a  Hot Shot Supt and he told me that it was only burning brush and to dial down my actions accordingly. That was early in my career and it stuck with me and became my personal motto. I was fortunate enough twice to over-ride a decision by another person and move folks out before they were threatened by a major run. I don't know why I recognized the threat and the others didn't. Perhaps it was Fred's comment or the hairs on the back of my neck standing up. Did I contribute to the solution or was I part of the problem. I think some of both, but I sure had a hell of a ride. Fudgie p/s; sometime I'll tell you the Fudgie story. Ok, but remember, this is a family site.  Wait a minute, no it isn't!  You can say damn near anything here.  Thanks for the synopsis of your first and last fires.  Ab.
04/21	Hi there everyone-- Thought y'all might be interested to know I decided to take the job, and work on the thesis in the winter.  Can't say that's gone over real well here, since no one here sees where you can get a degree AND fight fire. However, the midwest is not what I'd call extremely aware of what the whole fire scene is all about.  Anyway, I see the degree as one tool in learning about fire, but I think you need the experience too, and I guess they won't be able to argue with me when I'm in California.  Yep, that's right, after all yer talking about those darned hills last summer, I wanted to come out there and see what all the fuss was about, minus the humidity of the southeast I tend to whine about.  Just kidding... I've been west a season or two, but not yet in south CA.  So, maybe I'll get to meet one or two of you folks.  Hope so. Mellie-- haven't heard from you since the CDF Engine Guy posting... I hope he didn't scare you away.  I can say I also got some trouble for my enthusiasm my first year (and even my 2nd), and after taking 130/190 and going to a few fires, I was fairly convinced I knew a hell of a lot.  You grow out of it though, and I think the whole thing starts to humble you after a while.  I hope you don't let it bother you a whole lot... my enthusiasm still makes people think I'm crazy.  And, I'll venture out on a limb here, and say that women in firefighting are kind of an issue with some folks.  Especially women who have the potential to move up fast.  It's a tricky subject... and one not discussed on this site, that I remember, in the last few years.  Any ideas?  As a matter of fact, I'd like to see what the general thought is out there.... My condolensces to Lamar Y'Barbo's family in Texas.  Two weeks ago a volunteer firefighter from about an hour from here was killed after responding to a grass fire under some kind of storage tank containing unknown (at the time) gases or liquids.  As a result of his death and six other volunteer FF deaths in the state in the last year, the state leg voted to give each of the surviving families $100,000, because they were volunteers.  Not sure what to think of this, but the picture seems unjust somehow. Thanks for all yer encouragement.  Ab- I swear you had written that I should go into fire, and talk to you when I was 50 and see if I had made the right choice, but it's not on the post anymore.  I'd have to say I continue to make the right choice, I hope.  This will be my 2nd leave from grad school for fire, but now at least I'm done with my classwork.  And, you may be interested to know that I think I'd rather spend more time in the field learning tactics and logistics before getting that desk job in the urban interface.  We'll see.. Rochelle I support your choice.  As for the alleged Ab posting, it is entirely possible.  As for Mellie, don't fear her running away.  Ab.

04/21	Dear ENGINE GUY and FIRE FRIENDS: Hey ENGINE GUY, Are you really CDF? You're not correct in many of your statements about me. Are you correct in that statement about you? Let me clarify about me:  1) I am not an expert. If I did know it all, I might not be shocked/sleepless as occasionally I am. 2) I *WAS* Mellie citizen, but never JANE and then the fire came and I'm not quite sure yet even who Mellie is in the context of fire -- except addicted, learning and not gagged. 3) All my close CDF friends, except one, have been in touch with me. None are you, ENGINE GUY and no one knows you. 4) I have never had to go up to anyone in FIRE and invite myself. If the truth be known, it makes me feel a little shy and very thankful that I've been as accepted and encouraged as I have been. Really fit in? Well, we'll see. I'm still on probation and might be for a while. That's OK with me. I think I'll be in/on fire for the rest of my life. So this is just time spent completing my PTB. I'm sorry ENGINE GUY that my questions and speed scare you. Honestly, you wouldn't be the first person I've frightened that way. I don't mean to do that. Really...   MY FRIENDS,  To all who are answering my questions and clarifying issues, THANKS so much. Your responses are wonderfully rich and informative. To all of my CDF friends, THANKS. Your willingness to dialogue makes me proud to be your friend. You are all the BEST. (Engine Guy, you still have the potential to be a friend, too, if you want.) BTW, I do keep my ears open, but I don't know if I could gag myself, back off, or slow down even if I wanted to. Fire has me in its grip. <grin> I'm addicted, as one friend said, like a moth to the flame, like a needle in the vein. I THINK I'M IN LOVE! Ya'll provide some of the fix'ins.  Thanks for understanding my enthusiasm. I can't help it! As always-- Mellie PS. Thanks for the forum AB. Thanks for posting, Engine Guy. (Don't mind Tiny about the grammar thing. He's just supporting me in his dear young man way. We all know theysaid ain't about grammar and spelling, but about sharing ourselves as best we can.)
04/21	Mellie, Ab, at ell:      Mellie asked a couple of really good questions that deserve an answer. In regards to S-190, no CDF does not offer it to our new Fire Fighters. Instead we offer a 67-hour curriculum as well as public safety first aid, CPR and Hazardous Materials Operations level (the full course lasts about 16 days). The 67 hour course covers the material in federal S-190 course in addition to structure fire operations (ladders, SCBA, etc.). Why don't we use S-190? Well it’s a guess on my part, but I suspect that for one, it would hinder our ability to modify the curriculum to fit our needs, secondly, we’d be purchasing material from the federal side that our own academy can produce. There are probably other reasons as well. I have been involved in joint academies between CDF and USFS and have found the biggest difference is in that we throw in the structure stuff and a few more performance exams (one-person hoselay, mobile attack, etc). Those Fire Fighters who do not pass the performance and written tests are supposed to be terminated. (In an aside, we are seeing more and more new hires that have certificates from Junior Colleges. Some unit accepts these at face value and I question this practice).      The second part of your question Mellie brings out a good point. CDF is weak in the falling classes. I personally try to get my employees into the local Forest Service class because the quality of the course. Since we don’t have as many big trees in the south end of the state, we may never catch up with the forest in this respect. Unfortunately the bottom line is that it is up to the individual as to what he or she is comfortable falling. Fortunately, for most of our major falling jobs we generally contract private individuals.     In regards to the R-6 Fire Pups comments, we need to serve both our internal and external customers, that is those we deal with as fellow professionals as well as the public. Communication must be encouraged in all directions     Mellie, don’t be discouraged by those of lessor writing skill. I admire your honesty. A CDF Trainer
04/20	Ab et all,   Thanks to those who gave feedback to my peice, both the good and the bad. Heaven knows I need all the help I can get if I'm going to make this idea of mine work. My instructor gave my paper back today, graded 71/80 points. He deducted nine points because its a 'Writing/Editing' Class which means that  I'm supposed to rely on my fellow students to do the editing. I do not, however regret the assistance offered to me, as my motive was to one day get it published, and I feel that the work is effective, and as accurate as I could get it based on information recieved. It is also, for the most part, grammatically correct, which brings me to the point of this letter. While I'm not overly anal retentive about things being grammatically correct, and I do realize that we as humans can not be 100% grammatically correct, and I do realize 'They Said It' does not have a grammatically correct behavior to it; I do wish to ask the posters to please try and think before they post something. Case in point: 4-19-00 Message addressed to Mellie from a 'CDF Engine Guy'. I shouldn't have to say this, but that post needs work. It was clearly written by someone who did not take the time to sound half-way literate. I can cite violations in spacing, punctuation and word choice, without worrying about what is said in capitalized letters, but to keep spam down I shall not. I sincerely hope that the people who fill out official reports and handle paperwork can do so above the level displayed in that post. Moving on, I wish to ask some questions of the CDF Engine Guy. Do you view all interested personnel, civilian, military, or fire service etc who ask questions and try to make comparisions or try to make logic of a situation with the same contempt? Is your attitude about people who try to get a foothold in the fire community universal, or is it reserved for those who ask questions? Were you reprimanded for asking questions in your career?  "Why is Tiny asking these questions?" you ask. Well, to put it simply, I wish to know if my original perception of the wildland fire community as being closed off into it's own little world is correct. Before posting here my first time in December I had rarely seen a post written from the entry-level fire fighter that I could tell was from one, and I do believe that I have the record for youngest poster here. I remind you all that I am a high school junior, a Life scout in the Boy Scouts of America and a Cadet Ensign in the Naval Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps. I have had extremely little wildfire experience, and I have had little structural fire experience with the VFD. Speaking of my VFD, the funding for the County has fallen short and the VFD was forced to 'RIF' the high school volunteers, there were four of us. I use the RIF term with caution because it's hard to 'fire' a volunteer. The reason behind letting us go was because they lacked the funding to have us certified as FF1, which I believe was the class, I may be missing a letter. Yet despite this I have seen a 'blurred picture' of sorts. There are those who are willing to let the curious in, yet there are those who are stalwart and unmoving as a granite cliff. So, I ask again, is the Pup under a misconception of the wildland fire scene? Is there a 'social barrier' between the firefighter and the civilian which he or she serves? Should the Pup tuck in his tail and find another dream to go with? To save Ab the trouble of posting every response, feel free to send them to my hotmail account: rangertiny@hotmail.com Trying to keep a foot in the black and my head out of the smoke, Tiny, the R-6 Fire Pup
04/20	On Mellie's question about the situations - My tired old brain seems to remember in IR Crew training in late 70's that the original 13 situations came out of an acedemic study called "Common Demoninators to Disaster" which was used in training(at least on our crew) in a similar manner to Standards for Survival and such more recently.   And yes these came about because people, often more than one, died or were injured.  The other 5 were added as a response to additional incidents. Was a bit dismayed that someone was advancing the idea safety was getting in the way of agressive fire control ops.  This is wrong.   Aggresive attack and safety can both be accomodated.  That is what having skilled firefighters is all about.  If you can't fight fire aggressively, but provide for safety first, find another line of work. (Hmm - we have heard that some where before.) -  Things are starting to happen - stay safe out there - BW
04/20	Mellie, Sounds as if you offended the CDF guy a bit. Not to worry, one thing that  folks need to understand in this businees is that everyone interputs things  a little bit differently. I guess that if everyone agreed with each other,  then we would be living in "1984". I truely appriciate your questions and enthusiasm!! For some one of your  age, to be highly motivated in learning as much as possible in old man fire,  it is highly commendable..  ;) I sometimes wish that some of my 18-19 year old recruites can have a little more "gumph" in learning. Oh yes, generation  X'ers. Funny thing is though, I 'is' one myself!! Now, on to my question of the day. Has anyone seen the new federal policy on  assignment commitment times??? I understand that it is now policy to be on  assignments no longer than 14 days, excluding travel time. I also understand  that this policy was brought about as a safety meassure for the IHC crews.  No more 21 day assignments and one day R/R and then to the next assignment.  GREAT! (sarcasim) Due to the fact that, as a fire district under a IGA with the state, we are  classified as a state resource, Arizona State Land and New Mexico State  Forestry. With this in mind, that means that as an engine crew, we will be  held to the same standard (as per the southwest [R-3] mob guide) as the rest  of the federal crews. Also, if after out 14 day stint, we wish to take on  another assignment (and who doesn't) we will be required to take one day R/R  (on our own ticket) and either re-up on the same assignment, or be  reassigned. My question to the group is:: Is this policy being upheld by other state fire agencies, like ODF or NDF or  Texas Forest Service?? I would assume that CDF has their own policies in  regards to how long they can be out for. Also, does this policy apply to  private contractors. If not, as a private, you guys may be able to out do us  fire district guys, because now you can remain on the fire as long as the IC  wants you there. Personaly, I feel as a state resource, this policy sucks dog crap. I do not  want to send my crews out of state (like Florida) and have to have the crews  rotate every 14 days. I know, I know, most of your comments will be; if you  don't like the policy don't go! Any comments?!?! AZ Trailblazer
04/20	CDF Engine Guy Whoa there fella.   Sure you're right that Mellie's recent messages have carried the tone of greater knowledge and experience than she may be due. So what?    That's called enthusiasm and guess what, we all went through that stage; I did , you did, and now it's Mellie's turn.  The experienced firefighter will smile inwardly, and take the comments in stride.  Yes, Mellie, don't forget the virtue of listening, but dialogue is an integral part of learning......don't be afraid to continue to offer your opinions. CDF Engine Guy, take a deep breath and ease off. Old Fire Guy
04/20	Mellie; Don't be put off by the <deleted> that called itself CDF ENGINE GUY and its post of 4-19.  Sounds to me like you hit a nerve.  Ask every question you can, learn from everyone around you. Only in that way might you not have to repeat our mistakes.  Yes, I am CDF and proud of it.  I'm not so proud of some of my intolerant brothers and sisters, but every agency has some. Keep on it Mellie; Michael
04/20	Melee, Absolutely no need to apologize (4/18) for your questions.  I feel you formulate them well and are asking questions that alot of others probably would like to ask but do not have guts to put online.  I find your comments/questions to be most refreshing and usually challenging.  As an instructor over the years from local, level 200 courses to courses put on at the Regional Training Center I can attest to the fact there are very good instructors and very poor instructors.  Just as there are very good courses and very bad courses.  The one thing an instructor or course coordinator needs to bear in mind if he/she feels the material/course is inadequate:  you only need meet the intent of the material.  If you can add pictures/videos, personal experiences (without getting into abunch of "war" stories) and humor you can greatly enhance the quality of your presentation.  If you are a course coordinator and have someone who is not doing the job of getting the material across to the students, you have to have the brass to critique the person and possibly not bring them back next year. You are refreshing Mellie and add so much to this website!  Keep the questions coming and continue to inject your enthusiasm into the site!!  If someone has a problem with your questions, maybe they need to do some soul searching and try to figure out what you have said/asked that has them thinking again.  I have never known you to attack anyone, so keep it up.  I am sure some of my posts have gotten more than one person in a "Tizzy".  While I try not to offend, personally attack or otherwise get people riled up; after 30 years in the business, I figure the pot needs to be stirred once in awhile.  While employed with the FS I stirred the pot when I felt it needed to be stirred and a persons GS rating did not stop me; so now that I am retired I will continue to stir the pot, stimulate conversation, rattle cages, rock boats or whatever term you prefer.  But, I will always try to do so with respect and honor to those of you that are on the line "Facing the Dragon" with the bottom line being to pass on 30 years of knowledge that hopefully others may find useful and maybe keep someone alive. Firehorse
04/20	Mellie-- I have heard that the 18 watchout situations were developed as a result of fatatlities on fires.  I heard this in my FFT2 training a few years ago, and I think it may even be in the S-130/S-190 literature for teaching the course.  In the two courses we taught last year, that fact (or not) was used.  I'm sure there is information on this somewhere, but I don't have time to check it out just now. Also, the two S-190 courses we taught last year were taught to a combination of Job Corps and agency personnel.  The agency employees' scores ranged from just barely passing (you need 80% on two separate tests) to high 90s, while almost all of the Job Corps students failed the tests in both classes.  This is probably from a combination of factors, the most notable being that these basic fire training courses are not set up well for teaching the wide variety of audiences, experiences, and learning styles that are out there.  The Job Corps kids excelled when we got them into the field, and when we actually went outside and LOOKED at some terrain.  In the classroom, however, things were different.  Anyway, there you have my limited perspective on S-190.  Overall, I think many of these courses, most notably 130/190, are somewhat if not totally lacking when it comes to practical application of knowledge, course setup, arrangement of the parts of the course, and the overall approach to teaching the course. This is something I'd like to work on improving, but that's another story. You've gotten some great answers to your questions on this page, I hope you never stop asking questions.  I've only been in this field for a few short years, but the more I learn, the more I find that I have mountains more to learn about the whole system and operation.  Reading the posts regarding your note got me thinking about where I was when I first started in fire, and I find comments like Dana's hard to argue with.  Your first several times (years??) at a fire can be very intimidating, and it is hard to speak up about something when you are obviously new and inexperienced.  It's also easy to fall into the trap where others may act like just because they have so much more experience, that they have a better fire sense than you and a better sense of what is actually dangerous.  In my opinion, you should always be heads up, and keep an open dialogue between everyone working the fire about the hazards, conditions, fire behaviour, safety zones and escape routes, etc.  It has been my experience that no one on a fire has much of an idea of what anyone else's comfort level or experience may be, so communication is of course the key, and like everyone else said, common sense. Now I've written a long post myself by accident.  Many thanks to everyone for the advice recently about this little education dilemma I've been in... it's really very awesome to see such support from people I don't even know, especially since fire-people are pretty hard to come by out this way. I'll let you know how it turns out (I've got a feeling...).  Take care-- rochelle
04/20	Mellie and all those who talked about the S-190 test  I just finished the basic apprentice academy "The Jac Academy" that the Forest Service offers. This was the first year that they required people to pass the S-190 test or you will be removed, you only get one shot at it there were no retakes. 10 people failed that test out of 90, these people had multiple fire seasons under there belts. I have no idea why they failed maybe the thought they knew more than they really did who knows, the point is there are probably more firefighters out there who would fail the S-190 test than you really think. Smitty
04/19	mellie.   what  has made yousuch a pro and know it all on fire. yes i do know  you and also know that you think if you have dinner with so and so team that  makes you a expert..  WRONG.. not to long  a go you where jane citzen and now  you are some type of know it all .. and that scares me .you have gone up to  folks that have been on this line of work for years and tryed to fit in THAT  WILL NOT WORK . so i need to tell you from some fire folks that you are near  BACK OFF AND SLOW DOWN. keep your mouth shut and ears open ........ a CDF.  ENGINE GUY
04/19	Ab, this is a great site,i have been lurking here for a couple of months,it is good to read other opinions about wildland fire from people who work for other agencies, I worked for LAC Fire for 14 1/2 years, 7 years on a Heel-attack crew at Camp, then the last part of the 7 as a Dozer Swamper,i am currently a Dozer Operator for a contractor ,non-fire just dirt work so i can get time in the seat to come back as a fire dozer operator,regarding S-190 i took the test and passed it, then 2 days later was in S-290,which really opened up my eyes,anyways lots of rain & Snow down here in So Cal,Stay Safe...Roady
04/18	Ab & All. I noticed some comments on respirators recently on your page.  Since I have acquired some knowledge about respiratory protection over the last 25 years I'll share my thoughts with you.  There has been some monitoring of various & sundry toxic gasses on wildfires (prescribed burns I beleive).  The particulate (smoke) appears to be the main problem.  Carbon Monoxide (CO) does not appear to be found above the OSHA Permissible Level (PEL) of 50 Parts per Million (PPM).  There are a host of other toxins which can exist in smoke probably many which we don't even have standards for.  So whats a wildland firefighter to do? Protect your lungs and airway.  Use a dust & mist respirator and hope that the levels of the gases present will not affect your health.  I have looked at the Hot Shield & the Whiffs.  They do not appear to have NIOSH/MSHA approval which is required by OSHA.  However if they work and keep your face & lungs from being burned use them.  There is an approved dust mask made by Moldex, the 2300, which as long as you are not right on line will provide good protection.  It is light and can be carried in your pocket when not in use.  Get to close to the heat and it melts.  It even has an exhalation valve which means you dont keep rebreathing your own exhaled gases over & over.  As far as protection from CO which is odorless & tasteless you are looking at airline or SCBA respirators. Not to practical on most wildfires.  SCBAs are heavy & even though the bottle says it is good for 30 minutes those who are working will use up the air in about 15 minutes.  Then you have to change bottles which means you leave the line to get a fresh bottle.  Leave the SCBAs for structure firefighting, which could be added to your tasks in the future.  The place where SCBAs could be used because of the toxic soup is on interface fires.  Man made products are much more toxic than trees.  If you want to get more information on respirators contact Brian Sharkey, the Industrial Hygienist at MTDC. Enough of the lecture.  Be safe out there. Fitch P.S.  We have had the red flag all day here in New Mexico.  About a dozen major fires burning tonight.  The winds are supposed to drop to 10-20 knots after midnight.  Pray for those on the line that they all come home safe.
04/18	Mellie, Not sure what kind of S-190 class you attended; but I have never heard of such a high failure rate before.  We used to to do a one day S-190 in Basic Fire School and very seldom had a person fail.  If they did, we would sit down with them and go over that portion of the final exam question by question.  Then follow up with the home unit and let them know they need to work with the person abit more. Proper shelter deployment does not gurantee survival.  It will not help you if it is too hot or windy.  From reading the reports and talking with one of the investigative team for South Canyon, the feeling is that what got the folks was "Super Heated" gases that could not be survived, shelter or no shelter. Tom Shepard,  If you're reading this site let me know via Ab.  Tried to send you a message and apparently it did not go thru?  Firehorse
04/18	As someone who has taught S-190 and S-290 and assisted in S-390 for about 5  years I can tell you that if those figures are accurate something is wrong.  The subject matter is not that difficult, so I guess that maybe the  instructors should look at their methods.  As far as the fire shelters go,  they will not take direct flame contact.  Anybody that thinks the fire  shelter is adequate is sadly misinformed. The safest plan is to never base  your operation on the necessity of using the thing. J
04/18	Hola I copied the following statement made in reply to changing times in wildland fire on 4/15. "Good people are being burned or dying following the ways of the "70"s, there are lessons to be learned for those capable" I'd like to see this thought followed up by the author. Maybe I missed something in the seventies.  To me the seventies brought Safety First, an attempt to recognize and identify the areas to improve wildland firefighting safety, techniques, position appointments and a whole lot more. The seventies also brought the start of the gradual decline of funding to meet suppression needs and the court encouraged system to promote or appoint a class of person, in some cases not qualified to be in the position. What were the ways of the seventies that resulted to loss of life today. Fudgie Thanks for questioning my comment Fudgie.  Once in a while, a comment which seems perfectly logical in my mind fails the transfer to the printed page.  In this case I was referring to my experiences in the early 70's as a rookie firefighter with CDF, then later, the USFS.  At the time of my first fire working for CDF, I was totally untrained.  In fact, I joined my engine crew on a fire my first day of work.  Prior to working my first fire with the USFS my fire training consisted of reading a FS manual on basic firefighting and another on fire weather. As a first year crewmember, I did not question authority, nor did others desiring to keep their jobs.  Those who asked too many questions seldom lasted.  Formal training was non-existent for seasonals.  The extent of my training prior to receiving an appointment was limited to  knowledge passed on through my immediate engine boss, (you know, the STTO).  Current fire information in any form or context was extremely limited and when produced, dated far too late for benefit. Cliches, rumors, and rules-of-thumb however, were plentiful.  I'm not saying they were all bad, many were good and still are.  The poster's comments I recently replied to included two cliches reminding me of those times.  The first one about keeping one foot in the black is still good, it just reminded me of the other part of the cliche as I  learned it, "keep your head down, your mouth shut, and one foot in the black".  I didn't like it then and still don't.  The other comment, "double lunch and hook it" invoked a memory of the first fire I had escape initial attack wherein I was made to (subtly) feel responsible for allowing it to escape. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't crying then and I ain't crying now! In addition to Safety First as you mention, I also remember Firescope, ICS, and new OSHA standards emerging in the 70's.  These were all welcome and encouraging standards, however, they didn't begin showing up until the mid to latter 70's, they weren't all greeted with enthusiasm, and some of them are yet to be adopted nationwide. There remain some in command who view the past as the "good old days" and have thus failed to progress or learn anything from the last twenty plus years.  The wildland firefighters who work for these people are at risk.  These are the same supervisors who precipitate, envoke, and are the primary targets of the "file a grievance" attitude mentioned by JAFO, so prevelant in some areas.  I also disagree with the idea that the "drop back and punt" is an accepted or preferred method.  I, and many others I know use our supervisorial skills to best prepare those who work with us to vigorously attack all given situations at the first opportunity.  We are prepared! When I said, "Good people are being burned or dying following the ways of the "70"s, the above firest three paragraphs ran through my mind.  While I may have failed to communicate these ideals in the earlier reply, I find it apparent the the continued, needless loss of firefighter lives support my viewpoint.  By the way, if you've been around since the 70's, do you remember your first five fires?  How safe were you, how good was your supervisor?  How do they compare to your last five fires?  Abercrombie
04/18	Mellie, You hit on some very touchy questions, not for myself, but for some of the  other folks that are out there. As far as if the folks on the South Canyon  Incident would have survived if "they had properly" deployed their shelters,  this will be one of those debatable questions that some of us will ask over  beers at some little layover bar on our way to another assignment (anyone  been to Lone Pine CA??). I don't think anyone in their right mind would venture to even answer that question, even though official investigations  have come up with some BS answers. I lost three close friends on that fire,  and I truely believe that certain things happen for a reason. Yes, unfortunately the 10 & 18 come about because of firefighter fatalities  and injuries. LCES came about the fall/spring of 1995 just as the "official"  report on the South Canyon incident. Over the years, as "things happen",  every agency attemps to  incorporate a little acronym to help people out in  remembering safety messages and the like. Thats great and all, and believe  me it took a few seasons and lots of push ups before I could recite the 10 &  18 in my sleep, but non the less, I thinks the number one issue is the lack  of common sense. If today's basic and advanced level training programs would instruct with a kinda "common sense" approach to fire behavior and weather,  then, I would presume (not assume) that most of our tragic incidents would  be reduced (never eliminated, unfortunately). As far as your question regarding agency specific "quals" for assignments, I  can't say much for region 5. I worked as a ff/pm at Golden Gate NRA  (Presidio) and can honestly say that there was some variations to  qualifications. Its sorta like taking a battalion chief from a southern  California "city" fire department and essentially giving him/her a strike  team of engines to Laguna Beach on a wildland assignment. Unfortunately, we  still "give out assignments to the title, not to the qualified". I'm sorry to hear that you have some un-motivated instructors. I teach  locally, everything from Sate ff 1&2 to EMS. I love to teach wildland clases, because that's what I'm good at. I purposely extend the state basic  wildland class from 32 hours to 48 hours and incorporate live fire. I know  that the state land folks are a little upset when they can't fill up one of  their classes, but I have a waiting list for mine. Again, going back to what  I said earlier, as an instructor, you have to keep your students highly  motivated, instruct with a common sense to safety approach, and reward your  students for a good job! AZ Trailblazer
04/18	Later in the Day Everyone- I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my post. The concerned e-mails I've gotten from friends today indicate that they're expecting I'll get blasted by ya'll. Guess I'll handle that if it happens. I just need some answers regarding what is typically taught in CDF intro FF1 class (FF1: 5 month 10 hr per week class) and what comes next if people fail parts of it. I also need to know what proportion of each S-190 class (NWCG wildland fire-behavior) passes it. Part of what made me so upset before I posted yesterday, is that these ideas about fire shelters, use of chain saws, and watchouts were presented as off-the-cuff comments in my class. (Given what I was told about watchouts, I added the cynical the part about protecting the government from tort, although this also was hinted at by one of my structural ff instructors.)  I generally think my FF1 class has been excellent, but have been shocked in different moments by comments made in the last 2weeks. I would have thought that discussion would have revolved around how to never put yourself in a position to use a fire shelter. Instead, I find the instructor blaming the people who got burned over or killed for not using them correctly, AS IF THAT'S THE PRIMARY ISSUE in the context in which it was mentioned! Would the proper use of fire shelters have saved those at Storm King. I don't know. On Christmas afternoon (see miscellaneous pictures), I stood there in the height of the wind. The fuels were cool then. I can imagine the preheat on a hot windy July afternoon. Preheated flashy fuels burn the hottest, don't they? Seems to me that if glue were to ignite, it likely would have on that afternoon, even if shelters had been deployed correctly. But in class when I mentioned this and the study described at the Div Chief's Mtg that indicate fire shelters shouldn't be relied on in certain situations, my comments were brushed off. I need to reread the South Canyon report about fire shelters. I know recent research shows that direct flame contact causes the release of flammable glue vapors that may ignite inside the shelter. See http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/deployment.shtml .  What tipped me over the edge yesterday were additional instructor comments. "You don't have to pass S-190 to get picked up by CDF", and "CDFers don't often make handline 'cause there are 11 convict crews (in this 200 mi-long part of northern CA) to do that; and new hires work on engine crews". (I know that USFS hires those who don't yet have S-130 or S-190, but these courses are REQUIRED for redcarded FF1, aren't they? If CDF hires some of the guys in my class who haven't passed S-190, when will they get fire behavior training again? They'll have CDF FF-certs of some sort. What are CDFs agency policies for passing S-190 before going to wildland fire incidents? If "safety policies are agency policies," will my guys end up on the fireline this summer without having any more education in fire behavior at this level (even if this isn't really enough)???? Thoughts about this woke me up in the middle of the night. As I said when I started posting here in mid-Nov, I need to know how the system works and how my friends stay safe from the ground up and the top down. Friends who have e-mailed, thanks for all the links and stuff to study up. I have already read most of that information except for Kelly's.  http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/ted.html . She says that the instructor is technically correct in saying that no one who has deployed a shelter properly has ever died. So let me ask, when did we come to know what "properly" entailed -- after Storm King? God knows I'm not wanting to hurt any of you with all this. I love you!!!  I need answers that will let me sleep at night. I also don't want to just blast my instructors or their course... Sorry if I've