brush crew 1962

I am curious about this dragon wagon... does it operate in the same way the terra torches do? Obviously, it's a large contraption built into a huge piece of equipment, but I'm just wondering if it's the same basic principle.

I've been trying to get some info on the DOE's risk management programs and how or if they include or relate to wildland fire issues. I know they have a strong interest in worker safety at nuclear sites that are being cleaned up, but I'm not sure the extent to which this goes (ie...to firefighters, etc.) I do know they contract at local levels with structure departments for other fire coverage, although from what I remember not all structure/VFDs want to be involved. Granted, this is just around one facility. I've heard there are FMOs and haz fuel programs in the DOE as well, but I'm not sure if wildfires are included in their facility contingency plans and so on. The articles linked from this site make it look like they were well-prepared for this type of thing, for monitoring, etc. I suppose it would be an interesting thing to look into, for those folks who do research on stuff like that. Anyway, we'll see what comes up. Anyone have any info? I'm limited right now in my net searching time...

Firehorse... who will manage the trees if the USFS dissappears? Interesting perspective, and definitely not one I've come across yet... :) Where did Dombeck come from, if not the USFS? A state agency? I do know where he got his degree...

Hey Mellie--I did send you a note, but I'm taking off Friday night or Sat am, so I won't be available by email til Monday.

Have a good weekend all--
rochelle

Just spent the last week in Winnemucca Nevada. The BLM folks there are the nicest and most professional i have ever worked with. Right up there with WA DNR.

We worked the Ragian and Rock Creek fires. Had a blast made some new friends.

WP, liked your conversion chart. It will come in handy. I especially liked the Structure engine formula. I think you nailed it on the head.

Heading back down to Winny this monday. We rented some office space with four apartments. If any of you are in the area please stop by, and bs with us. We are located right next door to the Winnemucca BLM field office. Were going to place two engines, a dozer, and a tender there.

Looks to be a great season.
Be safe out there, and have a good one!

Eric
PW

Thanks for the info; but have no desire to go back to the FS. Once people found out I had applied and been accepted for disability I could not believe how a good portion of the people I thought I knew opened up to me. There are alot more disgruntled people within the FS than there are people who feel fulfilled in what they are doing. The outfit has changed so much since the early 70's that you cannot hardly recognize it as the same agency I started with 30 years ago! Up until about 3 years ago I used to hate weekends and lived for going back to work. This was especially true of fire season! Used to take alot of flack from district folks because it was not uncommon for me to show up at the office for awhile on my days off. When the FS got deep into the RIF's and budget cuts, the work load did not slack off, they just spread it out amongst those people remaining. Now there is NO SUCH THING as "Quality" work within the FS anymore! It is now, "Do the minimum to meet the deadline because your plate is too full and you need to get on to the next project". I feel sorry for those people that have 20+ years to go to retirement. But by then there will be no Forest Service anyway. When they made a political choice for Chief (Current Chief has no previous FS experience. What "Rocket Scientist" made that decision?) rather than bring them up from the ranks, that was the first nail in the FS coffin. Would be willing to bet money that within 5 years you will hear serious rumors of disolving the FS and within 8 years it will happen. (If not sooner on either of those.)

Sorry "wt". Got distracted and ended up on the soapbox. I do appreciate your help. Even though at one time I think I would bleed "Green" if cut, just have no desire to step back into such a negative atmosphere again. The FS was my second family and really miss those I worked with over the years; but that is all I miss (OTHER THAN THE FIRE ASSIGNMENTS THAT IS!!!) When I was first told I would be placed on disability I thought my work had come to an end. Now, the longer I am away from the agency, the more thankful to the Lord he took me out of that situation. Too bad FS management does not have a clue what their people are really feeling about their work. Think it would be an eye opener for them. [stepping down from soapbox]

Firehorse

Life here in Northern AZ has quieted down considerably due to the "monsoonal" (NOT!!) flow that has caught us off guard, so too speak. many small lightning fires here and there, but nothing to get excited about. Lightning storms at night have been somewhat impressive!

You all refere to the "Dragon Wagon" and some have even posted the Blue Monster from North Tree thinking that it is the Dragon.

Sorry, diffinatly two different "animals". Dragon Wangon came about back in the late 70's early 80's and as reported in earlier postings, has always been a BLM (western GB) toy. I understand that there were only 2 built (please correct me if I'm wrong) and initially were painted lime green. Yes, both fire and water was spit out, and even occasionally fire retardent was also spewed out of its turrents (this was before the class A foam craze!) Very effective for the sage brush fires of Nevada. I also understand that due to the maintenance, they may not be utilizing then anymore. I think the Unimog's with the 3oo gal tank and small blade on the from might have been a little more cost effective for WGB.

I was up in Nevada last year, in a little place called Stagecoach (20 miles east of Carson City/Dayton) when I was headed over to the NDF office in Carson. I had an opportunity to check one out parked out at a casino/gas station (you know the place). One operator/driver. Not very friendly (I don't think he was BLM). It was painted lime green, but had no agency placards. Don't really know who owned it. Anyone out there know??

Anyhow, very impressive toy. Kinda wish I had something like it here at home. If anyone knows if BLM is still operating them, or a private, let me know. I'd pay good money and a steak/case of beer for a ride around the block!!

AZ Trailblazer (I'm back)

C.Rupp,
dashed into the office today and picked up the book on Harry Gisborne Then name of it is: The Gisborne Era of Forest Fire Research, Legacy of a Pioneer. By Charles Hardy. My copy has a date on it of April 1983. The only other idenfiying (quiet, spell check aint workin kelly!) marks on it are USDA Forest Service FS-367. Im assuming that you should be able to look it up somehow with that publication number. Ive had it quite a while and cannot remember where I got it. Im sure it is probably out of print now.

Pulaski

FIRE SIZE CONVERSION FACTORS

Burn area is expressed thoughout the wildland fire service in "acres" as a measure of fire size. Acres, fortunately, turn out to be very flexible and highly individualized units of measure, thereby lending themselves well to all kinds of situations. This short presentation is intended to make possible the truer interpretation of fire size and the inter-conversion of various versions of the acre.

As a starting point, recall that what we call a "standard acre" is defined as 43,560 square feet, regardless of shape. Alternatively, a standard acre equals 10 square chains, 0.4047 hectares, 6,272,640 square inches, or 4.521 X 10-29 square light years. Keep in mind that the following conversions are not entirely fixed and depend upon whether the estimator is from a local unit or area office or fire district or is hung over that day or whatever.

10 flaming acres = 3 extinguished standard acres. (having no doubt shrunk when water was applied).

4 night acres = 1 daylight standard acre.

40 flaming night acres = 3 extinguished daylight standard acres.

100 prescribed fire acres = 50 standard acres.

20 acres seen from the air = 1 to 7 standard acres. (Depending on the impressiveness of the smoke column)

NOTE: A minor digression on estimates from aloft:

It is common knowledge that a space-warp exits between the ground and 2500 feet altitude wherein flames, brush, rivers etc. all appear in miniature as seen from the air. The following scale factors can be applied (again depending on the mind and habitual biases of the airborne observer).

Air View                               Factor                  Ground View
Low brush                              X 3           Towering impenetrable brush
Wadeable river depth of        X 2.6        Barely survivable crossing water
1 knee length

In addition to scale factors, some interpretation of fire behavior descriptions are occasionally required, such as:

"Making a little run" ===> Firestorm with many spot fires
"Going to jump the road ===> Paint on the engine scorched, crew sucking smoke, flames licking our butts.

Back to acre adjusting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

5 timber acres = 3 brush acres = 1/2 grass acres = 1 standard acre.
1 steep acre = 2.5 flat acres.
Any acres reported by a structure fire department: Night divide by 10; Day divide by 5.
1 no-fire-for-a-month acre = 5 been-fighting-fires-for-two-months acres.
*****************

I hope this presentation will help us all in the future and lessen the confusion when trying to determine just how much ground is on fire.

WP

Any questions? Test tomorrow. Ab.

CJ posted two potos on 6/28 the one linked as another is the true original dragon wagon. There were several that were first built and used in Nevada by BLM. They were great pieces of equipment if ya could keep them running and the shinny side up. I rustled through my files and found an old water handling guide that has a couple picts and the specs etc on it. One photo shows the firing torch in the stored road position. I will figure out how to scan that photo and send it.

The first picture CJ provided was a snow cat that was on contract to move crews in the eatly to mid 80s. I saw it once or twice, but that was it. It was DANGEROUS and most smart folks refused to ride in it. That all ended when it rolled over several times on a fire somewhere in the great basin -- believe it was about 85. Didn't carry water that I remember.

As for the North tree rig, it's a great piece of equipment -- bigger and better than the old BLM Dragon Wagon. Of course, has water but no fire.

Adrenalin Junkie

Will get these up on the equipment page this weekend. Ab.

During the Los Alamos mopup, I heard that there was DOD study done a few years ago that showed NIFC was able to mobilize resources for fire and other critical emergencies between half-a-day and a day-and-a-half faster than the military could. If this is true and we had a national emergency requiring extremely fast response to mitigate catastrophic consequences, would there be pressure to send wildland firefighters into an unsafe situation? I would like to see the article. Does anyone have the reference? I would also like to know what the policy is.

Al

The teams on the ground at Hanford know what the risks are. And yes it's bushy, but precautions have been taken. And they are being careful.

Madcat

If you want your job back there may be way. You said that you were not covered by firefighter retirement so I am assuming that you were in a secondary position. Any p.d. that requires an arduous fitness score as a condition of employment should be classified as a primary/rigorous one (rigorous being the key) FS personnel types will tell you otherwise, but this was appealed at the USDA level and the FS lost. As a result of this appeal the FS had to change the classification of all Hotshot Supt.s from secondary to primary/rigorous. The FS had the mindset that the classification is based totally on supervision, and ignores the law which is based on supervision and the physical demands of the job. Don't take no for a answer. What is really stupid is that someone at the AFMO level should have the knowledge to be an asset to an organization, even if you can no longer go out on the line.

Last year I was unable to take the pack test due to cancer treatments. (I work for BLM where the test has been in place for a while) and it was doubtful if I would ever be able to take it. I was told that, as an FMO, my job was based on brain not brawn, even if I never passed the pack test. Some bosses are better than others.

wt

Don't know where to get the BDU style nomex at. But was talking with some of the FS guys today and they said the contract for the old nomex stlye pant ran out and the new stuff is going to be the BDU type pant. They said there going to cost around $110 to $120 a pair.

Anybody know why the supply cache's website is still down. Been that way forever. I emailed them and they said to hope to have it back up in July. What is taking so long?

Mark,

If you would like I will email you or fax you a copy of what my state says to take.

David
oddave@lexcominc.net

This one I can partially answer with some accuracy. I contracted a medical disorder that took away my ability to pass the packtest. This was verified by a doctor and a letter was written to the FS that I would be unable to perform the duties in my Position Description that required passing the test at the "Arduous" level. The paperwork was submitted to OPM by the FS and approved to place me on disability retirement. All this took place in less than 2 months. I was the District AFMO; but was not covered under FF retirement due to a "break in service" earlier in my career (would not have made a difference if I had been covered). While I did not want to retire early, I could not argue the decision. By trying to continue in an "Arduous" position, I may have placed others in jepordy should things have gone to hell in a handbasket on the fireline. There was one other person on our forest that could not pass the step test or packtest and was also placed on disability retirement.

How others are able to have "Arduous" in their Position Description, be unable to pass the packtest/steptest, be covered under FF retirement and still keep their job, you would need to check with Personnel or OPM. Maybe there is something in the rules/regs books about having a medical disorder being handled differently than being out of shape and physically unable to pass the test? Don't know the answer to that one but betcha Personnel would at your local FS supervisors office. (If there are any Personnel types out there reading this and you know the correct answer, I would sure like to know.)

All this rambling may not answer your question, but the forest I worked on was very specific. If you have "Arduous" in your PD, you cannot perform at that level due to medical complications that in the opinion of a doctor will not improve in a reasonable amount of time, and the doctor will verify that opinion with a letter to the FS; you are to be placed on "Disability Retirement". PERIOD! The only other alternative is to put you in a 462 series job not requiring "Arduous" in it's PD.

If you know of anyone on the bottom rungs of the ladder that got "Retired" because they could not pass the test due to a medical condition or out of shape, and there are folks higher up the ladder in the same boat that have retained their job, I'd start jerking some chains, rattling some cages, and rocking some boats! The rules should apply to the AFMO's and above just like everyone else!!!!

You are correct on the "How it is interpreted"! Especially within the FS. Not all forests within the system intrepret things the same. Was the incoming Minnesota crew FS or someother agency? FS is supposed to honor the rules of the other agencies, be they State or whatever. If the Minnesota folks have a 21 day rule, the FS should honor that, and visa versa.

Firehorse

CJ

Thanks CJ. You get to ride 'em? The closest I remember is your second photo, but still doesn't seem quite right. Probably cause it was a time back when I first saw one. Oh well. Mellie, you get the idea? Ab.

Other trivia: It articulates in the middle, or it wouldn't make the curves on mountainous roads. When you sit in the driver's seat, you can only see what's behind you by watching the video camera. Pretty cool, have to climb way up into the cab, like Jill up the beanstalk. Helped substantially on the Megram last October! Thanks North Tree! (WP, I missed out: I didn't hug that driver, either! I was a little intimidated...)
If Ab's dragon wagon is as big as we're hearing and shoots fire, maybe I should borrow the North Tree tender. Wonder if they'd let me. Hmmmm...

Mellie

PS. Rochelle-- If you're still about and reading, please drop me a note at five_waters@hotmail.com. I might be down your way pretty soon and wonder if you're going to be there or out on a fire.

But us, lower on the suppression food chain, like engine capts, helitak capt, crew sups and downward...the real flame eaters...if we couldn't pass,for these same medical reasons, do you think we would be kept around, doing anything other than our job for very long? Some of us think we wouldn't be treated so kindly.

So, it looks like, its up for interpretation...who you work for, what your job title is, how long you have to retire...Everyone of these folks, can retire soon...

And then theres the 14 day rule. Los Alamos proved, it was also up for interpretation, some stayed 14 days, some stayed for a second (with 1 RR day)between, the second 14 days and many on rehab stayed for 21. Went as helicopter CWN, dispatch asked us to stay another 7 days, after our 14 (totalling 21) Our home forest approved it, and S.W. dispatch said it was a go, then the district ranger over there, said, no rules are rules, and must take a RR day after the 14th, their own dispatch argued with them, no they'll get the 2 RR days after 21, but he stood firm. Then the incoming relief crew, (who were from Minnisota) said their contract read, straight 21 days..and that was okay with the ranger. We just went home. Let them figure it out.

So, the talk is....any new "Rule", is simply how you interprete it and we're still confused.

Firewatch

There was at one time (not sure if its still in print) a USDA historical booklet on the works of Harry Gisborne. It is sitting on my bookshelf at work, unfortunatly, I will not be in until monday. If I dont see anything printed here by then I will post the info.

pulaski

Ya'll stay safe.
Biz.

Thanks, I want Mellie to know what she's up against. Heh, heh, heh. Ab.

Firehorse

Have only seen one in real life, sadly it was prior to my packing a camera. BLM used 'em in the Western GB, at least that was where I saw mine, somewhere out of Ravendale a long time back. They do (did) indeed shoot flames out one side of the unit. They also had a water monitor mounted on the front and I think it was a track layer. At least two tracks, maybe even four. Idea was that it could either burn out or put down a wet line. A monster indeed! Anyone have a picture? Ab.

Know this, that the reward at the end is one of great joy!
Wonderful peace of mind.
Fulfillment.
Among the 6 billion inhabitants of this frail orb, YOU will have accomplished what only an extremely small handful of humans can claim.

Be safe.
Maddog

PS I always use the handline slamming for my metaphors, somehow that is the guts of this business.

Since the MN DNR stymied the our efforts to begin e-publishing the NEWRL (National Emergency Wildfire Resource List) this year we have implemented a slightly less sophisticated system...using the DNRs' own forum board. Private contractors needing experienced smokechasers with various skills can post the positions they need to fill along with a telephone # and email address if possible and we will encourage all available resources to check frequently and call if interested. A follow up posting when the position has been filled will simplify the process. There is no charge...and registration is not required unless you wish to post. This might prove to be a valuable resource to both contractors and firefighters. The address is forums.dnr.state.mn.us/~community_forums. Look under Wildland Fire...Employment Opportunities

Our members seem to be happy that our move to implement the NEWRL caused the MN DNR to more actively seek AD positions for them then ever before...but many would much rather work for private contractors. We are still looking into providing RED CARDS next year so the MN DNR cannot prevent our members from seeking work elsewhere during the MN fire season...as they did this year by withholding them. Does anyone know where we start? We need to know the process by which Red Cards are issued and what certification is needed for our Association to issue them.

Our members also are very interested in additional training...as classes (such as engine boss) are rarely offered to non full time DNR folks. Anyone out there certified to teach these classes should contact me ASAP so we can begin arranging a class schedule, facilities, etc. Any contractor certified to teach these type of classes might consider the advantage of lining up next years positions by teaching these classes. Getting the "pick of the litter" so to speak.

There is currently a major shortage of engine bosses etc. in MN as the DNR fills the classes with full time employees whose supervisors then refuse to release them for out of area duty. This makes it likely that task books will be filled by in early spring next season while smokechasers are still on duty in MN. In reality the majority of experienced MN firefighters already have quite a bit of actual experience with engines even though they may not have had the class.

By the way smokechasers from several other states have contacted me for direction on how to start their own associations...I would encourage all to consider that even a small amount of active representation may reap great results. In our experience it has nearly doubled our members yearly income from fire related employment.

Dana Linscott
Vice Chair
MWFA
linscott@rea-alp.com

Rochelle said about the TheySaid community, "... your comments and insight and information have been keeping me educated and questioning ..."

Hey, punkin, that's what this website is all about.

Despite the inability of a small minority of people who are hung up with their own hangups (be that religious hangups or web-inexperience hangups or agency-hidebound hangups), what you say is The Truth. This website (for the several years that I've seen it in operation anyway), has been just what you say - a means of keeping fire folks educated and questioning ... and informed and cut down to size and jacked up to speed and encouraged to keep on keepin' on and told to question stuff, and ... well, an open forum for the discussion of all the topics and issues that fly around in the wildland fire world with too many talkers and too many questioners and not enough answerers in the standard forums. (er, forae?)

You said, Rochelle, that " ... this group of anonymous strangers has come to feel like a group of close friends to me." Yea verily, girlfriend, that's what this page is all about.

One thing about fire is that if you don't wash out in the first few years, if you're still around after finding out what it's REALLY all about, and if you still WANT to be around ---- well, there aren't many strangers any more. That's partly because it takes a certain kind of person to not wash out in fire -- a person who is resourceful, creative, no-nonsense, cut-the-bullshit, and do the right thing even if it means sacrificing your ownself to bail out someone else ... or even just Do The Right Thing Now No Matter What. Another thing about fire is that they're pretty much ALL close friends, whether you've met 'em or not. If you haven't yet, you probably will pretty soon.

gosh (blush) sorry to wax poetic and all that, but i spent a weekend with a bunch of jumpers, y'know, what can i say???? One cool thing about fire online is the SHARING OF INFORMATION. This is what the internet was all about back when folks like me'n'mellie found it. (hi mellie) The folks who are still (in the year 2000!) afraid of it and confused by it, well, shit, we'll outlive 'em. (chuckle)

Nowhere else in the "real world" (at least anywhere I've been, and that's kinda the flavor of neopolitan) is there a camaraderie (sp?) and a real understanding and bonding like there is in fire. And perhaps nowhere else in government - federal, state, county, etc - is there such a need for the open exchange of information - and such a dismal lack of humans who can do it.

[pause for a bit of applause here for AB,
who DESPITE THE ODDS AND THE PRESSURE,
HAS KEPT THIS SUCKER ONLINE]....
(SOUND OF APPLAUSE)
[GAD, now i'm starting to write like mellie]

People in fire don't have to have met to be buds ... they can be "anonymous" online (though a bunch of us do know each other) and they can STILL be the best of friends.

That's why this website, this TheySaid page, is a draw to people like you Rochelle, and Mellie, and TS, and Pup, and *all* you others ---- because it's a FORUM, an after-hours virtual gathering place for all of us who have worked, do work, want to work - in the world of fire. It's an online community in the bestest sense of the word. The people who don't get it are the ones who wouldn't make it past the bouncer in a "real world" gathering place of fire people.

kelly.

I'll be eating my words now, and probably be off the site again for a month or maybe more as my world has just inverted itself again. Just in case I don't make it back for a while (at least as myself), I will let you all know that your comments and insight and information have been keeping me educated and questioning for almost two years. Strangely enough, this group of anonymous strangers has come to feel like a group of close friends to me. However, although you may not see me, you can believe I'll still be keeping an eye on things around here. Thank you again, take care, and stay safe...

rochelle

Thanks Maddog! Glad to know I won't go thirsty. Ab wants to know if ya'll will all share a canteen with him, too. I told him, no, he'd have to beat me at the brush truck vs dragon wagon pushing contest! [ha ha ha]

Mellie

Psssst, Firehorse, FOBSIF, LL do you know what a dragon wagon is?

The mail tosser was confused this weekend so if anyone had a message that got missed, you will need to repost. Ab.

I have found a source for wildland firefighter type pins. It took me several years to find the source for "Bear Air" Wings, this is the place. They have pins of: GSA engines, hand tools, agency logos, old Smokey posters and more. http://www.jandmcreations .com/ . Also found a link to the(?) wildland firefighters museum. It is located in Capitan NM and part of a gift shop featuring Smokey items. Wildland Firefighters Museum

WP

We have a link to J and M on the links page. Ab.

(*ties a tourniquet to stop the hemorrhage of the green binary goo from the digital laceration through the cybernetic epidermal layer near the primary coolant pump*)

Okay that was for you medics and techies.. maybe someone out there will catch the potential pun... digit..

WP - Thanks for the advice regarding the DNR office and fire prevention etc, I'll be sure to follow up on that.

Maddog..sir?.. uh... I'm a bit lost to your words.. Did you mean that "NEVER!" to be added to the 'Stop asking."? Such as to read, in logical sense, "Never stop asking!" ? Sorry, if it's one thing this writer has found to be the most difficult, it's interpreting poetry...

As Ever,

"Ranger" Tiny, of Region 6, who is still y'alls pup!

PS And yes, that 'Sir' title is required Maddog... as is yours, Ab...

>>I tried to go to the web site the article listed for "GLOBAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE" "www.emerjet.com" and my browser says there ain't one. Sent Mr. Anderson an e-mail at his HOTMAIL (??) address and haven't received a reply. He and his staff must be overwhelmed with work and e-mails and all so I guess I'll wait a little longer.

I am the Mr. Anderson (John) who Guy says he can't reach and I want a chance here:

First, Global Emergency Response is now located at www.waterbomber.com .
Guy didn't say where he found the GER link. Sadly, many links established under the old URL cannot be updated and the original URL lost its #1 spot in the leading search engines we worked hard to generate.

But the important one, to my mind, is alive here at www.uni-freiburg.de/fireglobe . This may be the number one fire site for technical people anywhere.

Ab sez: JA's post continues here at IL-76

We do this to keep the size of the board to a reasonable length for downloading. Ab.

Rochelle:
Among those that serve, are yhose who expect reality to be aware-
Careful, you have much to share.
MaDDOG

Mellie:
Okay fellow wildland firefighters; whether you bleed a state color, a color
variegation
or federal green -
this cat has got it!
There's passion the words we read.
There a sense,
of a new breed.
Let me tell you, my McLeod loving friends;
share a canteen with Mellie.
Maddog

I read a couple of posts concerning the Russian IL-76, and I think some misconceptions are surfacing. As a training chief on the East Coast, working on international fire matters, I had an opportunity to fly with EMERCOM on one of its firefighting missions to Greece, which was having its worst wildfires in over a century in 1998. While CNN was calling the fires unstoppable, and many of the smaller tankers were grounded, this gently giant was able to extinguish two, 3,000' walls of flame in mountainous terrain, in very windy conditions, with only one, 10-second drop each! It made a believer out of me. The Ministry of Emergency Situations, EMERCOM, offered two of them to New Mexico a few days before Los Alamos was lost, but the USFS/FEMA refused the offer. The same thing happened in Florida in '98. Although the plane is too big to engage many of our fires, it would be very reassuring to know it is available when all hell breaks loose.

TJ

J

Long time no type.. well not really, but still..

To the other 'firepup'.. Don't worry 'bout confusing anyone no more! (Okay Kelly so it's bad grammar) I'm going to use my camp staff position again... "Ranger".. heh. For those who don't remember, at camp "Ranger" is the guy that fixes things..okay so he fixes everything. You would be surprised how many people actually thought I was a ranger with USFS or NPS etc.. Well I suppose some real rangers might fix stuff.. any how...

Since I'm heading to camp again I thought it might be useful to ask for some suggestions on how to go about minimizing the potential of an escaped fire (such as a wayward campfire ember) to spread into something that would cause serious damage. I already have in mind conducting a nightly walk walk of the entire campground with a few buddies, slogging backpack pumps, and I'll also probably emphasize fire safety at the daily meetings of adult and youth leadership. Can anyone come up with something further that I can do?

Thanks in advance,

"Ranger" Tiny, of Region 6

PS. I'll always be y'alls pup!

Well, there's my ranting for the week. How is it that you get useful ideas through to people who can actually make changes? A silly question, I suppose, but I think we have some severe training and planning shortages that need to be acknowledged and effectively dealt with by someone other than an uneducated Congress. I know we have the staff and the capacity within the fire community--how come it is that we never see a serious investigation into something until firefighters and/or homes burn up? Seems to me like this season could use some serious investigation at the outset before MORE houses burn up, and so on... Maybe I'm just grouchy because I need some sleep.

Take care all and stay hydrated... good lord it's hot out here (okay Ab, maybe I'll concede some of your points about California from last summer now... those mountains in the southeast were not nearly this WARM!! I'm not giving up that they were hilly as hell though. You have to give me credit however... I did move out here to see what all of the fuss was about yer "western slopes" being "tougher" than what easterners had to deal with, and so on. Of course that wasn't the only reason... :)

rochelle

I'd love to hear more about his job and any others that are out there. I have been checking out the USAJOBS site on a regular basis, just waiting to send out some apps. What type of jobs are you looking to fill on your forest?

You can find me at firepup21@yahoo.com. I am a different firepup than Tiny the firepup from region 6. Don't want to confuse anyone.

Thanks for the forum, keep up the great work.

OH, I get it! You still bleed green, like USFS green with some computer nerd genetics thrown in?! A family *TRAIT*? In the past there would have been no hope, simply have to love you anyway (like the father who beats his kids-- but they love him anyway cause he's their dad?!) NOW -- Well, they're mapping the genome, perhaps those faulty genes can be repaired! Or, Dear Abercrombie, is it more like *LOYALTY* -- misguided perhaps -- in which case we could re-educate you? (Dunnow here, maybe we should be emulating you!? [quizical eyebrow raised][head tilted]) Now, don't pull out that turbojet you once threatened me with!!!! Iffin you do, I'm going to get me a big red brush truck with a big welded pusher-apparatus-out-front like BC Davis that can mow down almost anything in its path if you're on flattish ground! CHALLENGE: Nozzle against brush truck on flattish ground (if we can find some)?

(BC will you loan me yours? I promise not to total her!)

Yep, BC and me, we did tie in for several hours... Even had a quick hug. (Wife, ya know!) I did take some pics of the wildland fire apparatus he has -- neat-- and we told fire stories, talked about the insidious politics of fire and about WILDfire in the NJ pine barrens that RIPS, like fire rips through CHAPARRAL! We're planning a brief joint post about fire and the pine barrens with pics when they come back! I took a picture of him, too, but I know Ab won't let me post anything personal like that. I think he's afraid someone will demand he post a self-portrait of the webmaster guy with the green binary goo in his veins and it'll blow his Ab image... [little, low chuckle]. Hey Ab, am I ever gonna get a hug??? [clear direct look]

Mellie

I'll drop the turbo and go rustle me up a dragon wagon! Heh,heh, heh. Ab.

Went to the Russian Jet site. Impressive but NOT. 135,000 lbs, in retardant that would be 15,000 gallons US. Just what we need, a bigger MAFFS tanker. The article says to build us more tankers in their other (surplus???) aircraft, they'd just build more cans as thats all their tanks are, cans with doors on em. How would they get coverage levels?? MAFFS gets it by dumping one or two tanks, no doors, no finess, just a dump truck approach. Thats OK at 1500 gals at a pop, those MAFFS guys are good, but it isn't the same at 7,500 gallons a pop. Whats the stall speed of that thing?? 250 knots?? We get some hellacious turbulence off a SEAT or P3 at 250 feet and 120 Knots, what will happen when that huge set of wings goes by???? And we already know how tough it gets for tankers to get into some of our terrain, how does this thing handle at low speed AND low altitude ??? Wouldn't want to have one drop on my head. I heard some where a 747 drinks 10,000 gallons of fuel an hour, whats the REAL cost of flying this ??

I saw this at another bulletin board awhile back and I tried to go to the web site the article listed for "GLOBAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE" "www.emerjet.com" and my browser says there ain't one. Sent Mr. Anderson an e-mail at his HOTMAIL (??) address and haven't received a reply. He and his staff must be overwhelmed with work and e-mails and all so I guess I'll wait a little longer. Wonder who in Aviation they talked with, wasn't an R5 lead as far as I can find out. Why does this BS get spread around, making us look like we'd refuse to use a valuable tool when as far as I can tell most of em are just junk someones trying to pawn off on the Government?

Guy

Ab posted the referred link because he wanted to provide an example of what's being said about the USFS being unable to take care of it's wildland fire threat and the alleged failure to use all available equipment appropriately.

As for how and/or why BS gets spread and recieves attention. . . BS in the media is normally driven or pushed by organizations focused on a select target audience who filter incoming data to conform to their own pre-conceived ideals.  BS media may often be discerned by the author or web site's failure to acknowledge and/or publish dissagreeing viewpoints.  BS media proponents frequently target those unable to discern reality from  propoganda.  The media audience may be without personal experience to justify their opinons other than relying on additional popular or similar biased media.  REAL information exchange comes from sites like wildlandfire.com and folks like you, Guy, who view, dissect, and have the courage to dissagree with published mass media information.

Abercrombie also wonders why everything with "Environment" in it's title seems so ignorant or antagnoistic to those of us who dedicate their lives to actively protecting and preserving it!

Abercrombie

Maddog

Yes Maddog. So easy to cut and trim a little here and there during the wet years. Not so easy to find qualified, experienced leaders afterwards. Nice to be hearing from you again! Press on with the good fight my friend. We gather beside you. Ab.

To the nephew. If you were carded by a firefighting contractor and didn't get an orientation packet with a list of what to take, consider asking the contractor.

Or better yet take your talents elsewhere. Perhaps the contractor doesn't have it together and your just seeing a preview of things to come.

Fudgie

Hello to all you wildland folks out there!! Just want to let everyone know that our beloved Assistant Chief, AZ Trailblazer, has just found out that he and Cyndi are going to become proud parents!!!! Congrats to the Irwins! and the future lil firefighter of the MFD!!

The bad boys and girls in blue of the Mayer Fire Management Division!!

Those silly kids I call firefighters are sometimes unpredictable. Yea, I think that the announcement would be a nice posting. I have alot of friends that I communicate with on "they said", only because some are soo busy, this is their only avenue to communicate with the free world during fire season......

Been real busy (no pun intended... :)) with lots of fire activity and dry lightning here in the Prescott Basin.

Ab, thanks for checking. That was very considerate of you! I truley feel the family part of this job on this site!! I just wish all wildland firefighters had access to this incredible arena!!

Talk actch all later!!
Tim AZ Trailblazer

See next post to see what the announcement is. Congrats. Ab.

Hmmm.  Cut my finger the other day and some green fluid with what appeared to be bits of binary flotsam floating on the surgace oozed out.  Ab.

Mike

I'll post it cause you may need a little help filling the position.  On just my forest this Spring we're trying to fill 13 suppression positions.  Some have been filled, some are undergoing eval panels, but the lack of diverse applications is dissapointing.  Not unexpected, just dissapointing.  As many forests around the region/nation have received a little bonus suppression funding this year, they are trying to restaff engines and crew positions that have been cut in prior years.  Not such an easy task to do as it turns out.  So, ok, fine.  This year there is more money for more engines.  Now how many FEOs and SFEOs were there last year who sat around unemployed and waited for this to happen?  Where will all the extra overhead come from to fill these renewed positions?  Imagine you're a fairly happy AFEO working at a nice station, good boss, and a wife and kids.  Are you really going to want to put in for a permanent transfer of station to an engine that has already been cut once due to lack of funding for a 50 cent per hour raise?   Oooops, you may transfer only to find there is no "bonus" funding from Congress next year.  Which engine would you suspect would be cut?  I'd be asking some pointed questions before I accepted any promotion/position offers this year.  Ab.

I have set up a page for wildland fire cartoons and jokes.

www.firetoons.20m.com
The front page is there with a email link. If your readers have anything I can put on the net please email the cartoons or jokes to me. I would like to get this off the ground soon. All content needs to be wildland fire related. I may post things that are specific agency related if its worth a good chuckle. Jokes, cartoons and IAP covers welcome.

My email account for this ftoons@firetoons.20m.com

Thanks for your time and effort Abe, I'll give this 30 days. If there is no response I'll take the site down. It was created for IE and is off set using netscape. I will fix this so it views better on both. Any hints, helps or criticism will be appreciated.

hk

Dispatch page would be nice. It does not mean we cant jump in here every now and then does it?.... Helped the neighbors out with a 100-200 acre grass fire today, wind driven, but not a bad size for this time of year. Had a 2 acre fire in the timber yesterday on district not too bad considering that the grass is really green up there. I think we are going to be busy in Eastern Oregon this summer. Will keep you all posted. How is everyone dealing with the handing down of more money for staffing? Are you able to find any qualified folks to do the staffing? We already have 19 rookies and are short a couple of Engine Bosses, detail requests have gone out but not too many bites yet.

Be Safe,

dispatcher

You'll always be welcome to jump in here. Readers who are web savvy may also have answers to some web questions that arise. Ab.

www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team5/

You can link to it if you want.
Pete

Yes and yes again. Ab.

www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team3/

www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team5/

Mellie

I am a BC in a city fire department in northern CA. My nephew just joined a 
private outfit in central OR and has been carded as a hand crew member. He 
called to ask what he SHOULD have and what would be NICE to have when sent 
out into the field.

I gave him a list of what I take when I go out of coutny on strike team 
assignment...but you animals are a different sort and travel a little 
lighter....do you have a list of essentials to pass along to a new kid?
 

Mark 

Good question Mark.  I won't hog the board here, but will tell you my MUST have on a hand crew was SOCKS, SOCKS, and more SOCKS.  Other underware is pretty nice too, although it can be reversed and used over and over.  Kidding, just kidding about the other underware.  Ab.

Good post WP.  I've added this post to the Archive Page which is now the home to "They Said" archives and all other documents available which are deemed significant, including those which used to be on the now defunct Hot Air page.  Ab.

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/4754/flamang.html

..Lets everybody be safe out there, looks like it will be a long one.

Jim Gobel
WI DNR

I don't know what you do as far as fire fighting and I'm not shitting on you but I can't seem to get my boots to last more than a season,that's one of the reasons I started to buy Nick's. I worked the last 5 seasons on a hotshot crew and at the end of the season the tread was gone and the stitching blew out so I would have to get a rebuild, but my Nicks I would only have to get them resoled. Some guys on the crew would only get a month and the stitching on there Whites would blow out. In my opinion whites are not what they are cracked up to be you are just paying for the name, Nicks are a way better boots.
Smitty

kelly.

Mellie
PS Hickman, was tempted to bail out over Missouri. The deciduous woods here remind me of your neck of the Ozarks only flatter. The birds sing in a foreign language and hide among *leaves*!

ZKP

Firehorse

Sorry to hear bout your problems. Thanks AB for telling how things are done up here. Like Ab said, every dispatcher in R6 - R5 - R4 - R2 - R-1 has a contractor list in front of them. It lists the company name, VIN number of engine/tender, Make, Model, License#, address, Phone numbers, and contact person. It lists EVERY piece of apparatus that contractor has, and they are individually Numbered.

One of my engines here is # 56-04H1-9-117101 another is 56-82X9-0-033 and so on. So it would be hard to say " hey i got this one to" Unless thay work it under the AD schedule. This is done frequently. Evry now and then a good deal comes along after contract awards. So you work it AD.

When I sign my gear up every region does it pretty close to the same. The gear is inspected, performance verified, minimum inventories met, and qualifications proven. Every contractors personnel is listed in a national registry by company name. SS# s are taken at fires. Picture ID in the regions im contracted is required.

As for "sub" contracting. They really frown on that everywhere I work. That doesn't mean you cant point them in the right direction. Just by association and being in this industry most of my friends are firefighters, and contractors. I know what gear they have, and if they are available. Last night I had beers with five of my contract buddies, Between us we represent 25 engines/ tenders, so it obviously is in our interest to help each other out.

When I get dispatched, they ask what I have available. I tell em- they order it. When IM out of gear, I tell them about my associates and friends.

Makes their job easier. and gets my friends work. I do not gouge them for this, as they do it for me too.

Sometimes (if its a local forest or one that knows me) they will just give me the "E" number for them. Otherwise They'll call them directly. About 25% of the work I did last year came to me this way.

I have no idea how long you have been doing this. But it took me three seasons to make all the necessary contacts to make a living at this. Call around to the other contractors on your list, tell em whats up. Join the Associations, go BS with the feds. They know what you are trying to do. Many of them will be doing this when they retire.

And by the way the going rate for subs is 10% not 20%

I know plenty of contractors in Phoenix, Flagstaff, St.. George, Albuquerque, Sedona. Give me a call and ill hook you up with them. then maybe you could help me out someday.

Another note -----As for Radiation badges being issued. All those would tell you is what you have ALREADY been exposed too. its not like they are going to beep, or sound alarms. Radiation would be one of the lower risks in my mind. Id be afrraid of all the unknown crap dumped and not recorded. Las Alamos has been pumping out plutonium and bombs for decades! since WWII!!!!!!! There are a number of chemicals produced as by products, Cesium, arsenic, Chlorines, PolyChlorinatedBiphenals (PCB). Hell I know a contractor that worked there in the 80s, he says they buried tons and tons of Asbestos back in the trees (right where GPers would be cutting line. Secret facilities make excellent dumping grounds.

Eric
Pacific Wildfire
253 221 6903
800 704 4594

So does everyone know that there is a very cool tower in the WO that no one is allowed to enter because it has a direct line of sight to the White House across the Mall? As if Lee Harvey Oswald was a forester).
Pyrodactl

As soon as I left "the beltway" I sold my Allen Edmonds wingtips on consignment and used the money to rebuild my Whites. Burned my 'de rigueur' canvas Lands End attache in effigy (kept my umbrella -- it rains alot where I live now) and ordered a 8460-01-193-9769 Briefcase, Nylon Duck...just like the one I had before I left for the WO. Dug out my musty old bandanas out of the bottom of my drawer and threw those stodgy red/white/blue neckties I wore specially for Monday morning "Stand Up" (Doctor (snip), PhD. always looked so preppy). Kept the Nordstroms suits in case the K.D. Lang look comes back in. Oh yes and I had a sex change operation. I hope my cover is good!

RF

[Snip]ing it yourself? Ab.

Signed
BUTT SORE CONTRACTOR IN R3

Where I'm from, each contractor is assigned to a hosting Forest or agency representative. They come to know each other quite well. When the local GACC wants to order a contract engine or crew, they contact the hosting forest. It would be mighty surprising and suspicious to have the contractor offer up an unknown resource. First of all, if an engine was requested, it would need to be inspected prior it's dispatch. If it was an emergency dispatch on the hosting forest, the resource may proceed to the fire, but the contrator representative will meet them at the fire. The personnel staffing the engine would also be listed and inspected. Those personnel not on a pre-approved list prior to dispatch would be asked for documentation certifying their positions and if acceptable, added to the list. If inspected on a fireline, personnel staffing the engine not on a pre-approved list would be fired, along with the rest of the resource, immediately. Handcrews are also scrutinized and inspected in the same manner prior to approving and accepting them for assignment, I'm not a contract inspector and I don't doubt what you say is happening elsewhere. From my observation though, I can guarantee it hasn't happened on my forest, though there have been other subtle sleights-of-hand attempted. As loopholes are discovered and closed, punishment is administered, we re-examine the contract, shake hands, and the process continues.

I've heard from those who complain about their hosting forests holding them hostage against the real/imaginary event of having an escaped fire on their own forest. I understand this is a real problem for some contractors. I've heard enough conversation to know this complaint is legitimate. I've also experienced it as a leader of several federal agency resources. As a resource boss I always subscribed to the policy of "fight the fires you got" and worry about the ones that haven't happened later. As a manager, I understand the importance of maintaining some balance of resources to have a fighting chance against new escapes. However, as I struggle to maintain the balance and maintain a committment to a nationa reponse effort, I also desire to admister fair play and equity to both agency resources and contractors. It ain't easy, but do you think it would be better if contractors are administered at the National level as is being discussed and planned for? If you are being held hostage by your forest, you may. If you have a good working relationship with your forest you might be in for a very big surprise.

Personally, I think the problem you describe in your email would flourish with national or even regional administration. I think it would defeat and play against the ICS concept wherein management of resources is kept at an acceptable level.

Abercrombie

PS. I think you came to the right place. Name names if you wish. I may not post it, but I'll certainly pass it along to the appropriate destination.

Mellie

I sat in on a meeting with the PHD while I was working as an AD. She called the meeting and did not even tell her staff what it was about. 30 minutes into the meeting we were still wondering about the reason for the meeting. She sure didn't like my comments as I didn't have any wart's to worry about, but she was lost as to who I was and why I was attending a staff meeting.

Just after SC, she wanted responses from the field on safety, but all she used were a few snippits for the Chief and Staff Meeting. I don't know where or what she did with the full compliation of safety replies, but I have a full copy and plan on putting them on the web.

J-Bob

And please, not Sir, althro the stroke to my ego was wonderful.

Biz. If everyone that reads or visits this web page, would also take the time to address their specific issues to their elected representatives, we could build the groundswell that is needed to get the politico to do what they are elected to do; listen to the voice of the people, and respond appropriately. If anyone has a line on a transcript of that national news broadcast where FS types admitted a shortage of ff resources, pleas let me know.
     In March, during my rather educational visit to DC as an attendee of the IAFF Legislative Conference, a large number of things became quickly very clear to me. Over the course of this summer, as each of us survives the Fire Season 2000, I'll share some of these observations. Let me begin by saying that many structure firefighters are right there next to the wildlanders in spirit and commitment. Most that I talked with, could not believe the situation with, status of, federal wildland ffers.
Their mouths literally dropped open when I told them that yes I fought fire on the line for 16 years and from the ECC for 11; and yes, I was not classified as a federal firefighter. Our efforts in educating these folks went right to the highest level of the IAFF with the new incoming President. These people are a great asset to us. At the local level I would encourage each of you to educate those cooperating folks you end up sharing hot canteen water with on some bust ass scorching day over your head in Type 13. To conclude today's little rant, retirees do really have other lives! Our elected reps in DC have these staffs. These are young kids, some I got my fifteen minutes of fame with, I could have been their father. They are educated, trained and positioned to be filters. To be briefers. To be brief. To listen with a sometimes concerned expression, but mostly to make sure the "boss" doesn't have to deal with every Joe and Jill that wants a piece of them. I came away with the distinct impression, that if Senator So and So or the Honorable Who Who did hear what my partner and I were delivering, I'm sure it didn't carry the dedicated waver in their voice that my message to them had. So I returned to my little farm in the valley, committed to keep hammering these folks. And that's what I ask you all to do. Hammer on them.
     Let them know the issues, in respectful, short to the point communications. Continually. As a wildland fire fighting community the issues before us at the start of the 21st Century are massive, no less than life and resource threatening. Each of us can do the best we can, after all you are professionals; but without opening the eyes, the minds and ultimately overturning mis guided management, each of you is faced with more than a few full fiery shifts alone on that mountainside, while your resource orders are being prioritized at Boise.
Keep on keepin' on
    Maddog

Just a reminder to be safe out there. There were three New South Wales Aust. firefighters killed (Claire Dean, George Fitzsimmons and Eric Furtan) and four seriously injured ( Mark Cupit, Luke McSweeny, Natalie Saville, and Jamie Shaw) when a fire that they were doing mop-up on took off. Exact details are still real unclear. Funerals for two of the victims were on 6/16 (Aust Time). A State memorial service is to be held sometime next week.

They have established a fund raiser for the frefighters
The Cashier
NSW NPWS
PO Box 1967
Hurstville NSW 2220
Australia

Cards and letters can be sent through

Brian Gilligan
Director-General
NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
PO Box 1967
Hurstville NSW 2220
Australia

RH

Pyrodactyl

While I had my neck down in my second floor cubicle, "Big" A[snip] was the Deputy Chief, SPF. I had a huge amount of respect for the man. Prior to coming to WO he was Forest Supervisor on the [snip]. I felt he was very in touch with the national fire program's needs though he had other arenas to attend to (Coop Forestry, Urban Forestry, etc.). I could tell his interest was really fire (he had some great fire paintings in his corner office). At the time [snip] was still an Assistant Director and I recall taking notes for her during meetings between her and "Big A[snip]". You could tell "Big A[snip]" was really concerned about fire. "Now tell me again why we should support R-5's request for SCBAs???" or "[snip] did WHAT with the air tankers???" Now M[snip] was a "good 'ole guy" and somehow I could never read him. You wouldn't think he was the Director, FAM from the way he talked or the way he presented himself, but I know he had the respect of all of us in the cubicles. He'd sit in his cubicle and polish his shoes several times a day.

Now remember Mellie even Director, FAM sits in a fabric partioned corner no bigger than the BMA's office on a district. Heck -- Director, FAM doesn't even have his OWN office! Even District FMOs have their own office! Director, FAM had a plastic cubicle like the rest of us on the second floor! I felt "Big" A[snip] had the concerns of the national fire program at heart and I think it showed during his tenure (199snip-9snip).I thought morale was really strong on the second floor when "Big" A[snip] and M[snip] were there. Though I sometimes wonder if their retirements were precipitated by the [snip] airtanker controversy ---SAD, SAD, SAD.

Along came M[snip]'s successor to Director, FAM -- DOCTOR [snip], PHD. and "Big" A[snip]'s successor to Deputy Chief, SPF -- [snip]. Now you want to talk about "blind leading the blind." I recall typing a briefing paper for Dr. [snip] about the differences between a Type I crew and a Type II crew. Remember I'm preparing this for the Director, FAM!! As much as I liked her as a person I didn't really see her sinking her teeth into fire issues. Sure -- sure I'd see her rush off to "meetings on the hill" but I always wondered what she was telling them!! I'd shove her briefing papers into her attache and she'd be off. My question was how could she present the issues in front of legislators if I'm only giving her the briefing 15 minutes before she has to speak?? In any event I saw the morale and confidence of the WO-FAM at a pretty grim time. I didn't get the impression that Deputy Chief, SPF [snip] ever worked on a ranger district and I know [snip], Director, FAM never worked on a National Forest (she came from [snip] State DNR).

OK--OK -- so who yields the REAL power?? Let me answer it with this story... I had to give Asst. Secretary [snip] a briefing a week or so after the SC tragedy. So I'm sitting in his office ACROSS the street from the Auditor's Building sipping yuppie Starbucks coffee that he has brewed in his office while updating him on the Northern Rockies Fire Siege. I tell him "my BLM counterparts tell me that Interior Secretary [snip] is going to request an initiative to increase rx burning". He puts his mug down and scowls "...I'll be damned if I'm going to let Sec. [snip] of Interior become the National Fire Chief!" Oppps...too much French Roast, eh [snippy]boy???

OK Mellie there you have it. I think the power to change things resides in 1.) Deputy Chief, SPF or 2.) Assistant Secretary of Agriculture. Now let me say this and these are only my opinions and this may sound sad and somewhat critical... I think there are two types of folks that get into the WO. Those that want to make a difference (M[snip]? "Big" A[snip]?) and those that use their position to get ready for the next position in WO (Associate Deputy Chief?). I didn't see much happen during the Dr [snip] PhD and Deputy Chief, SPF [snip] days. Was I a trouble maker when I was at WO-FAM? No, I just kept my head down and ears open...

By the way I've since gone deep -- Deep -- DEEP undercover and feel secure I can write these things. Ab, thanks for keeping the annonymity thing going...

RF

I thought it was interesting that tonight on the National Evening News (both NBC and CBS) the USFS publicly admitted that there now exists a critical national shortage of experienced wildland firefighters. They went on to indicate it will only get worse as the summer progresses.

It was also on the national news that 100 firefighters had refused to mop up on the Los Alamos fire because they did not believe that there was no toxic material present. They were offered radiation detectors(badges).I wonder what the consequences of that will be? I know ADs are not paid enough to risk that. I would have refused too.

I foresee that as a result of the homes lost...and the admission of a critical shortage of experienced firefighters the legislators will hold hearings next session...and a likelihood that the purse strings will loosen for fire funding...but that the mis managers will still manage to cover up their part in the major degradation of Americas' fire suppression ability. This despite the warnings for over a decade. The next few years will be very interesting for fire fighters.

Dana Linscott

Thank you so much for that clear, well-written explanation. I have admired your political work, dedication, and focus for quite a while. You are a role model for me. We desperately need people like you who have researched the problems in fire, are finding ways to illuminate the problems to others, and coming up with solutions. You are not alone in your assessments. I hear the same issues from many folks in the FS at all levels. You are a particularly articulate proponent for change, however. I really liked the things you wrote on the MN website. I also agree with you that the "badguys" are not evil.

I don't know the Jacobson Report. The Rains Report (Policy Implications for Large Fire Management), stated that hourly rates for state and local employees were twice as much as for federal employees and three times as much per shift as for federal employees (p33). The report doesn't mention contractors. Authors of the Rains Report say, "The Agency does not have the will to make the necessary fire policy, funding and organizational adjustment to ensure that fire management is positioned to be the effective cost-efficient program it needs to be for the 21st century." The Jacobs Report (An Agency Strategy for Fire Management) suggests that much of fire suppression will be contracted out. You can still find these two reports by going to USFS fire news.shtml, and moving to the very bottom of the news page. You can download them from there in PDF format. I don't think there has been any effort to suppress information in these reports, if these are the ones you mean, it's just that sometimes there are less than competent people trying to get them up on the web. This gives the appearance that there's a suppression conspiracy afoot. Information technology is changing faster than the Forest Service's ability to attract, hire, and pay competent web people. (Not you Ab! I know you do it for love.) There's also an antiquated process that keeps the best from being hired. I should talk to Congress about that!

Cruz's address is the Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management, but Lavin is listed as the Director. Cruz is not anywhere in that WO directory. See for yourself! ....Confusing.... I do need to get some of this straight before I take off on Saturday. Other than that, I will have to be careful to speak only from experience as I make my way in this new arena. Luckily, some of the people I'm meeting with in NJ will be able to give me pointers, too. (And hopefully I won't miss any fires while I'm away!)

To Maddog:

I feel like Tiny, like I ought to call you Mr. Maddog, Sir. Thank you for decloaking and joining us with your wisdom. I agree with you that firefighters are a professional lot. I have never seen people who study and train as hard as we do. We should talk some more about that. LATER…

BTW, when I worked on the acronym list, your posts often made me laugh so hard that tears ran down my face. I still recall my favorite, but I think Ab would censor it if I recounted it at this evolution of theysaid. Anyway, suffice it to say that you are one of my heroes of this website. You, Ab, Ramble, and Pathfinder, what a thing you had going in the "early days" trying to get this forum off the ground. Thank you for your vision, your humor, your sacrilegious turn of phrase. I'm glad you're not dead and that you're not Ab's creation -- I was never exactly sure that he wasn't talking to himself those years ago! And Abercrombie, thank YOU for your persistence! Now all we need to hear from is Pathfinder and theysaid will have come full circle! Welcome back, Maddog, Sir! [little salute, heels clicked together]

Thanks for the help, everyone.
Mellie
If anyone can lay out the WO fire hierarchy with names and positions, please e-mail me at five_waters@hotmail.com ...

Pyrodactyl

kelliness.

I was happy to see your response to the WOMEN on CREWS. When I worked on the Prineville IHC we had 8 Women and 12 Men. The women have a tendency to balance out the crew, they definitely had as much stamina as the men. It is not who fights fire better, it how you use the skills to make an effective crew. I can tell you that the ones who where whining and complaining about being on the same piece of real estate for several weeks, were the MEN, not all of them, but we had several. One in particular was even sent home because his attitude sucked and it was bringing down the crew, and being in California in 1987, we did not have time for the bitching and complaining. The assignments were tough, and as a crew we just did not need that kind of attitude.

The years I was on the shot crew, we had two distinct crew personalities. The first year we lost a crew member to a drunk driving accident, the crew was very tight that year. We were not as physically strong, but we could outlast most, mostly on attitude. The second year we had a very physically strong crew, the women were doing 60 push-up's in a minute (yes that it chest to the ground), but we had the "Bitchers and Complainers", and it brought the crew down, so attitude was really poor. That makes for a long season, especially when you are still in fire camp and it is a week away from Thanks Giving, and you are wondering if the caterer is going to feed you processed turkey for dinner next thursday.

I really believe that the fire fighters that we bring up through the ranks are only going to be as good as we teach them to be, men or women. We all need to ensure that we are passing along our knowledge and experience to these new fire fighters. Teach them to take pride in what they do, and TEACH them how to do it safely, so they make it home after every assignment.

The deal with stamina is all BULLSHIT, you have to be physically fit to do the job that we do no question about it. A good PT program, and some crew competition is a must. This crap of just because you are a woman you don't have the stamina to keep up is BS.

Spent some time in Santa Fe Zone Dispatch in May, would like to thank the folks down there for making my time so enjoyable. I would like to say they have their act together, and have a good group of support people helping them out.

Have a safe season folks,

Dispatcher

The bad guys are not evil...they are just afraid of their superiors either discovering they have made or failed to correct major mistakes. Some of these mistakes may have been inherited when they got their position...and "hidden" by whoever had the position previously. Some are clearly not competent to perform their jobs. Most "bad guys" simply are not used to being criticized by folks that are not their superiors.

I am unfamiliar with the Federal scene...I had to take the USFS to court to even get strait answers to my questions. If you are asking who is ultimately responsible... that would be the guy at the top of the organization. It has become obvious to me that before he takes any heat all the folks below him will have to take it first...and they work hard at deflecting responsibility so unless it becomes a national issue little will change quickly.

But that is currently happening...lot's of homes burning makes the taxpayers uneasy. As we all know...due to the continued explosive growth of the urban interface nationally (its a nice place to live) more homes will burn each year. Looking at the MN fire occurrence maps for the past decade I can see this clearly...the vast majority of our fires start in the Minneapolis interface... those are the fires that become TV images. When homes burn more questions are asked than when firefighters burn...sad but true.

The GAO recently published a report clearly stating that there is now a shortage of wildfire fighters and that in the next few years it will become a critical shortage. They were led to believe by the USFS that the immediate problem could be ameliorated by simply brining in more ADs...which apparently they think there is an endless supply of. And that is a big part of the problem...there is not. As long as the mid level folks believe that they have an endless supply of cheap labor...which can be treated like the average employee in 1924 not 2000 ...all serious wildland firefighters will not receive the pay, benefits,or respect that they are due.

There was also recently published a report (Jacobson ?) which as I read used actual firefighting costs to determine who put out fire most effectively. Feel free to correct me if you think I have mis read it. It said as I recall that "local" (state?) resources are the most expensive costing much more than federal which was the second most effective fire fighting force. The most cost effective fire fighting resource was PRIVATE CONTRACTORS!!!! It appeared to me that the report also said the folks generating the report felt that nearly all the reports generated in the last few decades had NOT been implemented and they felt that this ones recommendations would also be ignored. Pretty cheeky folks either close to retirement or going into other lines of employment I thought. There was some evidence that the WO level folks had tried to suppress the report...unsuccessfully...but I notice that it is not widely disseminated.

VFDs are also experiencing a real problem with filling their ranks with experienced fully trained firefighters. Most are not trained or equipped to fight wildfires...and are rarely compensated adequately for their efforts. I have found in general that the people responsible for actually fighting fires are exceptionally responsible people...and responsible people usually take on more responsabilitys...take them seriously and can soon no longer afford to go fire fighting. In a free market economy the fewer (insert commodity here) available, the more it costs. Currently there is only the beginning of a free market economy when it comes to wildfire fighters...thanks to private contractors in the equation. The compensation paid by private contractors IS the true economic value of wildland firefighters. Currently the free market value is over 3 times what ADs get. That is a substantial difference.

So remembering that the primary efforts of any bureaucrat are directed at covering their own ass so they can continue to be compensated at a much higher rate than dictated by a free market...more and more fire suppression responsibilities will be directed to private contractors. As these contractors need more experienced employees (compensated at 3 times the fed rate) the endless supply of ADs that the Govt is depending on in the future to make up fo