"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
JUNE 2000
| DATE |
|
| 06/30 |
Been awhile---I could not agree with firehorse more--without getting
into politics too far, I would have to think the FS has gone down the tube
under the present administration & [snip] USDA undersecretary (who
supposedly will resign 1/2001). There is no longer a militia to support a
siege of 88 or 96 & when will the next one be---2000? Jacob's report
calls for permanent Incident Command teams & support---yep right! When
will this happen? Where will the $$$ come from? New administration making
things better---don't think so---95%+ population urban! But back to
politics , we sure don't want good ol AL there!!!
brush crew 1962 |
| 06/30 |
Hi there--
I am curious about this dragon wagon... does it operate in the same way
the terra torches do? Obviously, it's a large contraption built into a
huge piece of equipment, but I'm just wondering if it's the same basic
principle.
I've been trying to get some info on the DOE's risk management programs
and how or if they include or relate to wildland fire issues. I know they
have a strong interest in worker safety at nuclear sites that are being
cleaned up, but I'm not sure the extent to which this goes (ie...to
firefighters, etc.) I do know they contract at local levels with structure
departments for other fire coverage, although from what I remember not all
structure/VFDs want to be involved. Granted, this is just around one
facility. I've heard there are FMOs and haz fuel programs in the DOE as
well, but I'm not sure if wildfires are included in their facility
contingency plans and so on. The articles linked from this site make it
look like they were well-prepared for this type of thing, for monitoring,
etc. I suppose it would be an interesting thing to look into, for those
folks who do research on stuff like that. Anyway, we'll see what comes up.
Anyone have any info? I'm limited right now in my net searching time...
Firehorse... who will manage the trees if the USFS dissappears?
Interesting perspective, and definitely not one I've come across yet... :)
Where did Dombeck come from, if not the USFS? A state agency? I do know
where he got his degree...
Hey Mellie--I did send you a note, but I'm taking off Friday night or
Sat am, so I won't be available by email til Monday.
Have a good weekend all--
rochelle |
| 06/30 |
wp! you cracked me up!!!!!!!!!! your ways of measurement is sooooooooo
true. although i might have maybe once or twice made a fire a little
bigger than it was. info like that is why this web page is the best. i
have turned on a few friends to this site that are not really into
wildland fire (if you can believe it) and they love it. they do say that
we all are mentally touched. its people like ab, yourself, mellie and the
rest that makes this page click. well just wanted to drop in and say
howdy.
BC Davis |
| 06/30 |
Lo all,
Just spent the last week in Winnemucca Nevada. The BLM folks there are
the nicest and most professional i have ever worked with. Right up there
with WA DNR.
We worked the Ragian and Rock Creek fires. Had a blast made some new
friends.
WP, liked your conversion chart. It will come in handy. I especially
liked the Structure engine formula. I think you nailed it on the head.
Heading back down to Winny this monday. We rented some office space
with four apartments. If any of you are in the area please stop by, and bs
with us. We are located right next door to the Winnemucca BLM field
office. Were going to place two engines, a dozer, and a tender there.
Looks to be a great season.
Be safe out there, and have a good one!
Eric
PW |
| 06/30 |
wt,
Thanks for the info; but have no desire to go back to the FS. Once
people found out I had applied and been accepted for disability I could
not believe how a good portion of the people I thought I knew opened up to
me. There are alot more disgruntled people within the FS than there are
people who feel fulfilled in what they are doing. The outfit has changed
so much since the early 70's that you cannot hardly recognize it as the
same agency I started with 30 years ago! Up until about 3 years ago I used
to hate weekends and lived for going back to work. This was especially
true of fire season! Used to take alot of flack from district folks
because it was not uncommon for me to show up at the office for awhile on
my days off. When the FS got deep into the RIF's and budget cuts, the work
load did not slack off, they just spread it out amongst those people
remaining. Now there is NO SUCH THING as "Quality" work within
the FS anymore! It is now, "Do the minimum to meet the deadline
because your plate is too full and you need to get on to the next
project". I feel sorry for those people that have 20+ years to go to
retirement. But by then there will be no Forest Service anyway. When they
made a political choice for Chief (Current Chief has no previous FS
experience. What "Rocket Scientist" made that decision?) rather
than bring them up from the ranks, that was the first nail in the FS
coffin. Would be willing to bet money that within 5 years you will hear
serious rumors of disolving the FS and within 8 years it will happen. (If
not sooner on either of those.)
Sorry "wt". Got distracted and ended up on the soapbox. I do
appreciate your help. Even though at one time I think I would bleed
"Green" if cut, just have no desire to step back into such a
negative atmosphere again. The FS was my second family and really miss
those I worked with over the years; but that is all I miss (OTHER THAN THE
FIRE ASSIGNMENTS THAT IS!!!) When I was first told I would be placed on
disability I thought my work had come to an end. Now, the longer I am away
from the agency, the more thankful to the Lord he took me out of that
situation. Too bad FS management does not have a clue what their people
are really feeling about their work. Think it would be an eye opener for
them. [stepping down from soapbox]
Firehorse |
| 06/30 |
Look here:www.tri-cityherald.com/hanfordfire/story33.html
for some media info on the Hanford fire. Noname |
| 06/30 |
wt
Your post got me thinking. I am a Helitack Manager and am classified as
secondary fire, though I do have to pass the pack test at the ardous level
as well as meet the physical quals for heli-rappel. It makes sense to me
that if Hotshot Sups are primary then so should Helitack Supervisors. Does
not really matter to me as I have established my primary fire and
retirement wise it will not matter for me, but it could for others. What I
am really curious about is thier FLSA status. Are they now Non-Exempt or
Exempt?
Bobster |
| 06/30 |
Hey Gang,
Life here in Northern AZ has quieted down considerably due to the
"monsoonal" (NOT!!) flow that has caught us off guard, so too
speak. many small lightning fires here and there, but nothing to get
excited about. Lightning storms at night have been somewhat impressive!
You all refere to the "Dragon Wagon" and some have even
posted the Blue Monster from North Tree thinking that it is the Dragon.
Sorry, diffinatly two different "animals". Dragon Wangon came
about back in the late 70's early 80's and as reported in earlier
postings, has always been a BLM (western GB) toy. I understand that there
were only 2 built (please correct me if I'm wrong) and initially were
painted lime green. Yes, both fire and water was spit out, and even
occasionally fire retardent was also spewed out of its turrents (this was
before the class A foam craze!) Very effective for the sage brush fires of
Nevada. I also understand that due to the maintenance, they may not be
utilizing then anymore. I think the Unimog's with the 3oo gal tank and
small blade on the from might have been a little more cost effective for
WGB.
I was up in Nevada last year, in a little place called Stagecoach (20
miles east of Carson City/Dayton) when I was headed over to the NDF office
in Carson. I had an opportunity to check one out parked out at a
casino/gas station (you know the place). One operator/driver. Not very
friendly (I don't think he was BLM). It was painted lime green, but had no
agency placards. Don't really know who owned it. Anyone out there know??
Anyhow, very impressive toy. Kinda wish I had something like it here at
home. If anyone knows if BLM is still operating them, or a private, let me
know. I'd pay good money and a steak/case of beer for a ride around the
block!!
AZ Trailblazer (I'm back) |
| 06/30 |
Blackhand,
The BDU style pants are availaible from National firefighter corp (www.nationalfirefighter.com)
cotton run around 75 or so and nomex are higher. The cotton are very
comfortable but do not wear near as well as the nomex. They offer gsa
pricing to wildland agencies.
C.Rupp,
dashed into the office today and picked up the book on Harry Gisborne Then
name of it is: The Gisborne Era of Forest Fire Research, Legacy of a
Pioneer. By Charles Hardy. My copy has a date on it of April 1983. The
only other idenfiying (quiet, spell check aint workin kelly!) marks on it
are USDA Forest Service FS-367. Im assuming that you should be able to
look it up somehow with that publication number. Ive had it quite a while
and cannot remember where I got it. Im sure it is probably out of print
now.
Pulaski |
| 06/30 |
I have found in the past there has been some confusion between dispatch,
IC's, air observers, IA folks and others when it comes to accurately
describing fire size. I came across the following clarifications that have
helped the folks in our part of the world:
FIRE SIZE CONVERSION FACTORS
Burn area is expressed thoughout the wildland fire service in
"acres" as a measure of fire size. Acres, fortunately, turn out
to be very flexible and highly individualized units of measure, thereby
lending themselves well to all kinds of situations. This short
presentation is intended to make possible the truer interpretation of fire
size and the inter-conversion of various versions of the acre.
As a starting point, recall that what we call a "standard
acre" is defined as 43,560 square feet, regardless of shape.
Alternatively, a standard acre equals 10 square chains, 0.4047 hectares,
6,272,640 square inches, or 4.521 X 10-29 square light years. Keep in mind
that the following conversions are not entirely fixed and depend upon
whether the estimator is from a local unit or area office or fire district
or is hung over that day or whatever.
10 flaming acres = 3 extinguished standard acres. (having no doubt
shrunk when water was applied).
4 night acres = 1 daylight standard acre.
40 flaming night acres = 3 extinguished daylight standard acres.
100 prescribed fire acres = 50 standard acres.
20 acres seen from the air = 1 to 7 standard acres. (Depending on the
impressiveness of the smoke column)
NOTE: A minor digression on estimates from aloft:
It is common knowledge that a space-warp exits between the ground and
2500 feet altitude wherein flames, brush, rivers etc. all appear in
miniature as seen from the air. The following scale factors can be applied
(again depending on the mind and habitual biases of the airborne
observer).
Air View
Factor Ground
View
Low brush X
3 Towering
impenetrable brush
Wadeable river depth of X
2.6 Barely survivable crossing
water
1 knee length
In addition to scale factors, some interpretation of fire behavior
descriptions are occasionally required, such as:
"Making a little run" ===> Firestorm with many spot fires
"Going to jump the road ===> Paint on the engine scorched, crew
sucking smoke, flames licking our butts.
Back to acre
adjusting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
5 timber acres = 3 brush acres = 1/2 grass acres = 1 standard acre.
1 steep acre = 2.5 flat acres.
Any acres reported by a structure fire department: Night divide by 10; Day
divide by 5.
1 no-fire-for-a-month acre = 5 been-fighting-fires-for-two-months acres.
*****************
I hope this presentation will help us all in the future and lessen the
confusion when trying to determine just how much ground is on fire.
WP
Any questions? Test tomorrow. Ab. |
| 06/29 |
Ref the question on the "dragon wagon"
CJ posted two potos on 6/28 the one linked as another
is the true original dragon wagon. There were several that were first
built and used in Nevada by BLM. They were great pieces of equipment if ya
could keep them running and the shinny side up. I rustled through my files
and found an old water handling guide that has a couple picts and the
specs etc on it. One photo shows the firing torch in the stored road
position. I will figure out how to scan that photo and send it.
The first
picture CJ provided was a snow cat that was on contract to move crews
in the eatly to mid 80s. I saw it once or twice, but that was it. It was
DANGEROUS and most smart folks refused to ride in it. That all ended when
it rolled over several times on a fire somewhere in the great basin --
believe it was about 85. Didn't carry water that I remember.
As for the North tree rig, it's a great piece of equipment -- bigger
and better than the old BLM Dragon Wagon. Of course, has water but no
fire.
Adrenalin Junkie
Will get these up on the equipment page this weekend. Ab. |
| 06/29 |
Does anyone know the policy of the fire managers with respect to putting
firefighters in potentially toxic environments? Are there guidelines? What
they are? There have been two fires recently near nuclear facilities.
Presumably, wildland firefighters would not knowingly be put in harm's
way. In these days of downsizing, however, does anyone at any level of the
fire organizaion have the time to think about or plan for dealing with
this risk?
During the Los Alamos mopup, I heard that there was DOD study done a
few years ago that showed NIFC was able to mobilize resources for fire and
other critical emergencies between half-a-day and a day-and-a-half faster
than the military could. If this is true and we had a national emergency
requiring extremely fast response to mitigate catastrophic consequences,
would there be pressure to send wildland firefighters into an unsafe
situation? I would like to see the article. Does anyone have the
reference? I would also like to know what the policy is.
Al |
| 06/29 |
To Maddog et al:
The teams on the ground at Hanford know what the risks are. And yes
it's bushy, but precautions have been taken. And they are being careful.
Madcat |
| 06/29 |
firehorse,
If you want your job back there may be way. You said that you were not
covered by firefighter retirement so I am assuming that you were in a
secondary position. Any p.d. that requires an arduous fitness score as a
condition of employment should be classified as a primary/rigorous one
(rigorous being the key) FS personnel types will tell you otherwise, but
this was appealed at the USDA level and the FS lost. As a result of this
appeal the FS had to change the classification of all Hotshot Supt.s from
secondary to primary/rigorous. The FS had the mindset that the
classification is based totally on supervision, and ignores the law which
is based on supervision and the physical demands of the job. Don't
take no for a answer. What is really stupid is that someone at the AFMO
level should have the knowledge to be an asset to an organization, even if
you can no longer go out on the line.
Last year I was unable to take the pack test due to cancer treatments.
(I work for BLM where the test has been in place for a while) and it was
doubtful if I would ever be able to take it. I was told that, as an FMO,
my job was based on brain not brawn, even if I never passed the pack test.
Some bosses are better than others.
wt |
| 06/29 |
Let NO ONE BS you, at HANFORD. I'd demand a rad clicker immediately if I
was anywhere near the fireline. They've been nuking stuff up there since
the middle of WW II.
Be careful.
Maddog |
| 06/29 |
Blackhand,
Don't know where to get the BDU style nomex at. But was talking with
some of the FS guys today and they said the contract for the old nomex
stlye pant ran out and the new stuff is going to be the BDU type pant.
They said there going to cost around $110 to $120 a pair.
Anybody know why the supply cache's website is still down. Been that
way forever. I emailed them and they said to hope to have it back up in
July. What is taking so long?
Mark,
If you would like I will email you or fax you a copy of what my state
says to take.
David
oddave@lexcominc.net |
| 06/29 |
Firewatch,
This one I can partially answer with some accuracy. I contracted a
medical disorder that took away my ability to pass the packtest. This was
verified by a doctor and a letter was written to the FS that I would be
unable to perform the duties in my Position Description that required
passing the test at the "Arduous" level. The paperwork was
submitted to OPM by the FS and approved to place me on disability
retirement. All this took place in less than 2 months. I was the District
AFMO; but was not covered under FF retirement due to a "break in
service" earlier in my career (would not have made a difference if I
had been covered). While I did not want to retire early, I could not argue
the decision. By trying to continue in an "Arduous" position, I
may have placed others in jepordy should things have gone to hell in a
handbasket on the fireline. There was one other person on our forest that
could not pass the step test or packtest and was also placed on disability
retirement.
How others are able to have "Arduous" in their Position
Description, be unable to pass the packtest/steptest, be covered under FF
retirement and still keep their job, you would need to check with
Personnel or OPM. Maybe there is something in the rules/regs books about
having a medical disorder being handled differently than being out of
shape and physically unable to pass the test? Don't know the answer to
that one but betcha Personnel would at your local FS supervisors office.
(If there are any Personnel types out there reading this and you know the
correct answer, I would sure like to know.)
All this rambling may not answer your question, but the forest I worked
on was very specific. If you have "Arduous" in your PD, you
cannot perform at that level due to medical complications that in the
opinion of a doctor will not improve in a reasonable amount of time, and
the doctor will verify that opinion with a letter to the FS; you are to be
placed on "Disability Retirement". PERIOD! The only other
alternative is to put you in a 462 series job not requiring
"Arduous" in it's PD.
If you know of anyone on the bottom rungs of the ladder that got
"Retired" because they could not pass the test due to a medical
condition or out of shape, and there are folks higher up the ladder in the
same boat that have retained their job, I'd start jerking some chains,
rattling some cages, and rocking some boats! The rules should apply to the
AFMO's and above just like everyone else!!!!
You are correct on the "How it is interpreted"! Especially
within the FS. Not all forests within the system intrepret things the
same. Was the incoming Minnesota crew FS or someother agency? FS is
supposed to honor the rules of the other agencies, be they State or
whatever. If the Minnesota folks have a 21 day rule, the FS should honor
that, and visa versa.
Firehorse |
| 06/28 |
Here is one
and another
picture of dragon wagons.
CJ
Thanks CJ. You get to ride 'em? The closest I remember is your
second photo, but still doesn't seem quite right. Probably cause it was a
time back when I first saw one. Oh well. Mellie, you get the idea?
Ab. |
| 06/28 |
Kel-- Here's the North
Tree "tender". It is, as you say, a behemoth, but shoots
water (2500 gal), not fire. Also, it's not orange, red or yellow! I don't
think it's the *dragon* wagon.
Other trivia: It articulates in the middle, or it wouldn't make the
curves on mountainous roads. When you sit in the driver's seat, you can
only see what's behind you by watching the video camera. Pretty cool, have
to climb way up into the cab, like Jill up the beanstalk. Helped
substantially on the Megram last October! Thanks North Tree! (WP, I missed
out: I didn't hug that driver, either! I was a little intimidated...)
If Ab's dragon wagon is as big as we're hearing and shoots fire, maybe I
should borrow the North Tree tender. Wonder if they'd let me. Hmmmm...
Mellie
PS. Rochelle-- If you're still about and reading, please drop me a note
at five_waters@hotmail.com. I might be down your way pretty soon and
wonder if you're going to be there or out on a fire. |
| 06/28 |
Tiny the Fire Pup,
A couple of posts ago you referred to both Abercrombie and Maddog as
"sirs". Taint so, their enlisted men.
Later, Dave |
| 06/28 |
Wondering what other forests are doing about the people who don't pass
the pack test? We've had several on our forest that haven't passed it, and
not because they tried and failed, but because of medical reasons,
injuries, back, knees, even bypass surgery..their doctors won't okay them
to even attempt it. Which is okay, no one wants anyone to get hurt. But,
what are other forest doing with these situations. These people are still
in their positions, such as, AFMO, FPT, District Fuels Mgr. and what are
we doing about it? Nothing, they are still in their positions and even
have taken fire assignments, no doubt camp type postions. But, the thing
is, don't AFMO's have an obligation to be a duty officer and don't they
have to pass WCT at arduous, in case they get a fire. And don't FPT's,
sometimes have to be there, around the flames to investigate before things
get trampled on, and should he even be driving around in his little pumper
truck with water? And can the Fuels mgr, even go out near his burn, once
they light it? Evidently this forest is going to see how it plays out,
probaly limit them to being no closer to the fire, than a ridge or two
away...at first..then who knows....I think they will allow them to sneak
in alittle closer.
But us, lower on the suppression food chain, like engine capts, helitak
capt, crew sups and downward...the real flame eaters...if we couldn't
pass,for these same medical reasons, do you think we would be kept around,
doing anything other than our job for very long? Some of us think we
wouldn't be treated so kindly.
So, it looks like, its up for interpretation...who you work for, what
your job title is, how long you have to retire...Everyone of these folks,
can retire soon...
And then theres the 14 day rule. Los Alamos proved, it was also up for
interpretation, some stayed 14 days, some stayed for a second (with 1 RR
day)between, the second 14 days and many on rehab stayed for 21. Went as
helicopter CWN, dispatch asked us to stay another 7 days, after our 14
(totalling 21) Our home forest approved it, and S.W. dispatch said it was
a go, then the district ranger over there, said, no rules are rules, and
must take a RR day after the 14th, their own dispatch argued with them, no
they'll get the 2 RR days after 21, but he stood firm. Then the incoming
relief crew, (who were from Minnisota) said their contract read, straight
21 days..and that was okay with the ranger. We just went home. Let them
figure it out.
So, the talk is....any new "Rule", is simply how you
interprete it and we're still confused.
Firewatch |
| 06/28 |
The "dragon wagon" y'all are curious about is likely the
OSHKOSH/PHOENIX ATV that NorthTree Fire runs. They're mighty impressive in
person. It's an 8-WHEEL DRIVE rig with 2500 gal. capacity, a pump of 500
gpm, CAFS unit, GPS equipped, etc. The photo on their website does NOT do
this thing justice.
You can check 'em out at www.northtreefire.com/equipmen.htm
-- kellygal |
| 06/28 |
C.Rupp
There was at one time (not sure if its still in print) a USDA
historical booklet on the works of Harry Gisborne. It is sitting on my
bookshelf at work, unfortunatly, I will not be in until monday. If I dont
see anything printed here by then I will post the info.
pulaski |
| 06/28 |
Ab, Mellie, there is a picture of a Dragon Wagon in the book Fire
Apparatus in North America by Jurgen Kiefer. It was built by Lockheed and
is an eight-wheel drive vehicle that articulates in the middle. As Ab
noted, it could spew fire or water! It's a totally cool engine but I think
maintenance cost were prohibitive. If I can scan it in I'll send a photo.
Ya'll stay safe.
Biz.
Thanks, I want Mellie to know what she's up against. Heh, heh, heh.
Ab. |
| 06/28 |
Mellie, The one Dragon Wagon I know of for sure is "Draggin my
Wagon" into the sleeping bag at the end of a long shift. But; I think
the one you are talking about is an Alumagel (Known to the military as
Napalm) tank and pump mounted on a vehicle that shoots flames for a 100
feet or so. Seen one in a training film once but never in person. Used for
firing out from roads.
Firehorse
Have only seen one in real life, sadly it was prior to my packing a
camera. BLM used 'em in the Western GB, at least that was where I saw
mine, somewhere out of Ravendale a long time back. They do (did) indeed
shoot flames out one side of the unit. They also had a water monitor
mounted on the front and I think it was a track layer. At least two
tracks, maybe even four. Idea was that it could either burn out or put
down a wet line. A monster indeed! Anyone have a picture? Ab. |
| 06/27 |
I am trying to find 4 Oregon firefighters who were working on the Cerro
Grande fire in New Mexico on 6/15, to whom I would like to send the
picture I took of them and also the web address of all my burned-area
pictures (when it's ready). I was up in the Jemez Mountains with my
8-year-old sister Lisa taking pictures for a web page for my company about
the uses of GIS for fighting fires. We talked with the firefighters who
were having lunch by the road there, and they told me a lot of things
about firefighting which I am now using in my web page. One of them gave
me a home page address (www.Beckhous.CDS.com, except I must be doing
something wrong because that doesn't work) BUT I FORGOT TO ASK THEIR
NAMES.
So if anyone has records of who was where when, and could help me find
these firefighters, this is what I know about them: they were all from
Oregon, one was a federal employee, the other three weren't, I *think* one
was maybe named Scott and another might have been Mike, they were near an
area where there were HotShot vehicles, but I don't think they were from
those crews (they all had yellow hard hats, if that means anything?) and
the area they were in was right near DP-3 (maybe as far over as DP-4) on
the May 22 operations map shown on
www.fs.fed.us/r3/sfe/fire/cerrogrande/maps/may22opsbriefingmap.htm
They would remember me by my sister, whom they gave a candy bar and some
raisins to (I think she said thank you. I hope so.) If you have any
information which would help me get in touch with these men, please
contact me at Karen.Dahlby@auc.trw.com And to everyone who helped save my
home town and my parents' house and some national historical places from
the Cerro Grande fire, THANK YOU!
--Karen Dahlby |
| 06/27 |
I am looking for any information on Harry T. Gisborne. Any suggestions?
C. Rupp
crupp8@msn.com |
| 06/27 |
Monday and Tuesday were my days off for nearly 20 years of my
firefighting career.
There was really something cool, about working the
weekends (the brass was not bouncing around; just cool Fire Control
Officers; ah Jeez, I really mean, Battalion Chiefs); and not going to work
on Monday morning, when everyone else did was somehow perversely
satisfying. Terrible downside tho, two marriages ruined! I was often going
to do a not very scientific, probably quite random survey of the effects
of being a wildland fire fighting had on marital statistics. However,
having only to look around my own little corner of the flaming world, it
was apparent that I already had all the information I needed. What can I
say, you all know the truth? Not only does it take a very
"unique" individual to stay with wildland fire fighting as a
career, it takes just as unique family support system.
Now I met a whole bunch of fine fire fighters
over the course of 27 years of activity, and even a few more in 2 years of
behind the scenes dabbling; and as the barriers of turf wars gradually
eroded away; as the logic and precision of ICS and adopting the fire
service command structure prevailed; the closeness and intensity of this
"family" has grown. I ask you now, who among you does not feel
your tear ducts swell when you think of the tragedy of Storm King
Mountain?
Like the man said, you don't have to physically
know them, to be one with them. What you do have to be is TRUE to your
calling.
If I was buck naked 19 again, I'd probably be
trying like hell to land a job one of those real big green boxes of
engines that drive by every once in a while (real rare here at 92 1/2 feet
above sea level). Just so you know, being a tank truck operator, oh shit;
that dinosaur language again; IS the best gig in any fire department! Bar
none.
I just thought I'd let you all know that each of
you are greatly appreciated by the family that you are part of. With your
head down feeling like it's about to explode, sweat stinging the corner of
your eyes, an unrelenting parchness gnawing at you; web gear grinding raw
spots, acrid smoke and fumes grasping the air from your lungs and the
energy from you body; pour it on with your spirit, heart and your soul.
Know this, that the reward at the end is one of great joy!
Wonderful peace of mind.
Fulfillment.
Among the 6 billion inhabitants of this frail orb, YOU will have
accomplished what only an extremely small handful of humans can claim.
Be safe.
Maddog
PS I always use the handline slamming for my metaphors, somehow that is
the guts of this business. |
| 06/27 |
Ab,
Since the MN DNR stymied the our efforts to begin e-publishing the
NEWRL (National Emergency Wildfire Resource List) this year we have
implemented a slightly less sophisticated system...using the DNRs' own
forum board. Private contractors needing experienced smokechasers with
various skills can post the positions they need to fill along with a
telephone # and email address if possible and we will encourage all
available resources to check frequently and call if interested. A follow
up posting when the position has been filled will simplify the process.
There is no charge...and registration is not required unless you wish to
post. This might prove to be a valuable resource to both contractors and
firefighters. The address is forums.dnr.state.mn.us/~community_forums.
Look under Wildland Fire...Employment Opportunities
Our members seem to be happy that our move to implement the NEWRL
caused the MN DNR to more actively seek AD positions for them then ever
before...but many would much rather work for private contractors. We are
still looking into providing RED CARDS next year so the MN DNR cannot
prevent our members from seeking work elsewhere during the MN fire
season...as they did this year by withholding them. Does anyone know where
we start? We need to know the process by which Red Cards are issued and
what certification is needed for our Association to issue them.
Our members also are very interested in additional training...as
classes (such as engine boss) are rarely offered to non full time DNR
folks. Anyone out there certified to teach these classes should contact me
ASAP so we can begin arranging a class schedule, facilities, etc. Any
contractor certified to teach these type of classes might consider the
advantage of lining up next years positions by teaching these classes.
Getting the "pick of the litter" so to speak.
There is currently a major shortage of engine bosses etc. in MN as the
DNR fills the classes with full time employees whose supervisors then
refuse to release them for out of area duty. This makes it likely that
task books will be filled by in early spring next season while
smokechasers are still on duty in MN. In reality the majority of
experienced MN firefighters already have quite a bit of actual experience
with engines even though they may not have had the class.
By the way smokechasers from several other states have contacted me for
direction on how to start their own associations...I would encourage all
to consider that even a small amount of active representation may reap
great results. In our experience it has nearly doubled our members yearly
income from fire related employment.
Dana Linscott
Vice Chair
MWFA
linscott@rea-alp.com |
| 06/27 |
(um, warning: long post alert. those with short attention span should
skip this).
Rochelle said about the TheySaid community, "... your comments and
insight and information have been keeping me educated and questioning
..."
Hey, punkin, that's what this website is all about.
Despite the inability of a small minority of people who are hung up
with their own hangups (be that religious hangups or web-inexperience
hangups or agency-hidebound hangups), what you say is The Truth. This
website (for the several years that I've seen it in operation anyway), has
been just what you say - a means of keeping fire folks educated and
questioning ... and informed and cut down to size and jacked up to speed
and encouraged to keep on keepin' on and told to question stuff, and ...
well, an open forum for the discussion of all the topics and issues that
fly around in the wildland fire world with too many talkers and too many
questioners and not enough answerers in the standard forums. (er, forae?)
You said, Rochelle, that " ... this group of anonymous strangers
has come to feel like a group of close friends to me." Yea verily,
girlfriend, that's what this page is all about.
One thing about fire is that if you don't wash out in the first few
years, if you're still around after finding out what it's REALLY all
about, and if you still WANT to be around ---- well, there aren't many
strangers any more. That's partly because it takes a certain kind of
person to not wash out in fire -- a person who is resourceful, creative,
no-nonsense, cut-the-bullshit, and do the right thing even if it means
sacrificing your ownself to bail out someone else ... or even just Do The
Right Thing Now No Matter What. Another thing about fire is that they're
pretty much ALL close friends, whether you've met 'em or not. If you
haven't yet, you probably will pretty soon.
gosh (blush) sorry to wax poetic and all that, but i spent a weekend
with a bunch of jumpers, y'know, what can i say???? One cool thing about
fire online is the SHARING OF INFORMATION. This is what the internet was
all about back when folks like me'n'mellie found it. (hi mellie) The folks
who are still (in the year 2000!) afraid of it and confused by it, well,
shit, we'll outlive 'em. (chuckle)
Nowhere else in the "real world" (at least anywhere I've
been, and that's kinda the flavor of neopolitan) is there a camaraderie
(sp?) and a real understanding and bonding like there is in fire. And
perhaps nowhere else in government - federal, state, county, etc - is
there such a need for the open exchange of information - and such a dismal
lack of humans who can do it.
[pause for a bit of applause here for AB,
who DESPITE THE ODDS AND THE PRESSURE,
HAS KEPT THIS SUCKER ONLINE]....
(SOUND OF APPLAUSE)
[GAD, now i'm starting to write like mellie]
People in fire don't have to have met to be buds ... they can be
"anonymous" online (though a bunch of us do know each other) and
they can STILL be the best of friends.
That's why this website, this TheySaid page, is a draw to people like
you Rochelle, and Mellie, and TS, and Pup, and *all* you others ----
because it's a FORUM, an after-hours virtual gathering place for all of us
who have worked, do work, want to work - in the world of fire. It's an
online community in the bestest sense of the word. The people who don't
get it are the ones who wouldn't make it past the bouncer in a "real
world" gathering place of fire people.
kelly. |
| 06/26 |
Thanks for the poetry, maddog.
I'll be eating my words now, and probably be off the site again for a
month or maybe more as my world has just inverted itself again. Just in
case I don't make it back for a while (at least as myself), I will let you
all know that your comments and insight and information have been keeping
me educated and questioning for almost two years. Strangely enough, this
group of anonymous strangers has come to feel like a group of close
friends to me. However, although you may not see me, you can believe I'll
still be keeping an eye on things around here. Thank you again, take care,
and stay safe...
rochelle |
| 06/26 |
Quick note before I head back to CA tomorrow. For all those of you east
coast types, my trip here has been particularly interesting. Thanks. I
think of the times I've visited with nary a thought of fire, fuel loading,
topography, humidity, weather and I wonder where I've been all my life.
When I get home and get my pictures developed, look for two reports that I
hope Ab will post or link to. Wish I had a digital camera along, they'd
already be up here.
Thanks Maddog! Glad to know I won't go thirsty. Ab wants to know if
ya'll will all share a canteen with him, too. I told him, no, he'd have to
beat me at the brush truck vs dragon wagon pushing contest! [ha ha ha]
Mellie
Psssst, Firehorse, FOBSIF, LL do you know what a dragon wagon is? |
| 06/25 |
The mail tosser was confused this weekend so if anyone had a message
that got missed, you will need to repost. Ab. |
| 06/25 |
AB,
I have found a source for wildland firefighter type pins. It took me
several years to find the source for "Bear Air" Wings, this is
the place. They have pins of: GSA engines, hand tools, agency logos, old
Smokey posters and more. http://www.jandmcreations
.com/ . Also found a link to the(?) wildland firefighters museum. It
is located in Capitan NM and part of a gift shop featuring Smokey items. Wildland
Firefighters Museum
WP
We have a link to J and M on the links page. Ab. |
| 06/24 |
Just got back in town from Las Vages, on a little R&R. I couldn't
help noticing the post on the Russian IL-76. The same out fit offered it
to us in Texas in 1996 and in 1998. All we had to do is send them a check
for $100,000 so they could fill it up with gas to get over here, we
decided to pass. However, 3000' flames, huh TJ, seems like we heard claims
like this before. We'll still pass.
"Boo" |
| 06/24 |
Ab, sir, I think you need some help for that wound...
(*ties a tourniquet to stop the hemorrhage of the green binary goo from
the digital laceration through the cybernetic epidermal layer near the
primary coolant pump*)
Okay that was for you medics and techies.. maybe someone out there will
catch the potential pun... digit..
WP - Thanks for the advice regarding the DNR office and fire prevention
etc, I'll be sure to follow up on that.
Maddog..sir?.. uh... I'm a bit lost to your words.. Did you mean that
"NEVER!" to be added to the 'Stop asking."? Such as to
read, in logical sense, "Never stop asking!" ? Sorry, if it's
one thing this writer has found to be the most difficult, it's
interpreting poetry...
As Ever,
"Ranger" Tiny, of Region 6, who is still y'alls pup!
PS And yes, that 'Sir' title is required Maddog... as is yours, Ab... |
| 06/24 |
With respect to the airtanker and Global Emergency Response discussion,
Guy said:
>>I tried to go to the web site the article listed for
"GLOBAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE" "www.emerjet.com" and my
browser says there ain't one. Sent Mr. Anderson an e-mail at his HOTMAIL
(??) address and haven't received a reply. He and his staff must be
overwhelmed with work and e-mails and all so I guess I'll wait a little
longer.
I am the Mr. Anderson (John) who Guy says he can't reach and I want a
chance here:
First, Global Emergency Response is now located at www.waterbomber.com
.
Guy didn't say where he found the GER link. Sadly, many links established
under the old URL cannot be updated and the original URL lost its #1 spot
in the leading search engines we worked hard to generate.
But the important one, to my mind, is alive here at www.uni-freiburg.de/fireglobe
. This may be the number one fire site for technical people anywhere.
Ab sez: JA's post continues here at IL-76
We do this to keep the size of the board to a reasonable length for
downloading. Ab. |
| 06/24 |
Ranger:
Upon the valley floor we can see the storm cloudings rising.
NEVER!
Stop asking.
Maddog
Rochelle:
Among those that serve, are yhose who expect reality to be aware-
Careful, you have much to share.
MaDDOG
Mellie:
Okay fellow wildland firefighters; whether you bleed a state color, a
color
variegation
or federal green -
this cat has got it!
There's passion the words we read.
There a sense,
of a new breed.
Let me tell you, my McLeod loving friends;
share a canteen with Mellie.
Maddog |
| 06/23 |
Hi gang,
I read a couple of posts concerning the Russian IL-76, and I think some
misconceptions are surfacing. As a training chief on the East Coast,
working on international fire matters, I had an opportunity to fly with
EMERCOM on one of its firefighting missions to Greece, which was having
its worst wildfires in over a century in 1998. While CNN was calling the
fires unstoppable, and many of the smaller tankers were grounded, this
gently giant was able to extinguish two, 3,000' walls of flame in
mountainous terrain, in very windy conditions, with only one, 10-second
drop each! It made a believer out of me. The Ministry of Emergency
Situations, EMERCOM, offered two of them to New Mexico a few days before
Los Alamos was lost, but the USFS/FEMA refused the offer. The same thing
happened in Florida in '98. Although the plane is too big to engage many
of our fires, it would be very reassuring to know it is available when all
hell breaks loose.
TJ |
| 06/23 |
Regarding the Russian Giant Airtanker See also:
www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/12/03/fp6s2-csm.shtml
www.ruf.uni-freiburg.de/fireglobe/iffn/tech/tech_3.htm
www.terra.net.lb/terrafamily/didyouknow_articles/did_you_know_that_the_ilyushin.asp
www.gazeta.ru/rus_rescue.shtml
N.B.: Shoigu's from Tuva. Tuva is the ancient source of the same people
who make up the North American aboriginal community.
J |
| 06/23 |
Ab.. et all
Long time no type.. well not really, but still..
To the other 'firepup'.. Don't worry 'bout confusing anyone no more!
(Okay Kelly so it's bad grammar) I'm going to use my camp staff position
again... "Ranger".. heh. For those who don't remember, at camp
"Ranger" is the guy that fixes things..okay so he fixes
everything. You would be surprised how many people actually thought I was
a ranger with USFS or NPS etc.. Well I suppose some real rangers might fix
stuff.. any how...
Since I'm heading to camp again I thought it might be useful to ask for
some suggestions on how to go about minimizing the potential of an escaped
fire (such as a wayward campfire ember) to spread into something that
would cause serious damage. I already have in mind conducting a nightly
walk walk of the entire campground with a few buddies, slogging backpack
pumps, and I'll also probably emphasize fire safety at the daily meetings
of adult and youth leadership. Can anyone come up with something further
that I can do?
Thanks in advance,
"Ranger" Tiny, of Region 6
PS. I'll always be y'alls pup! |
| 06/22 |
Hi all--
Just back from a successful federal UI RX burn and missed yet another week
of messages. I was interested to hear the government is putting out money
for hiring extra people?? Is this true? From what I'm finding around here,
it won't matter because no one can find qualified engine foremen, etc. I
have to agree with whoever it was that said long term permanent funding
and year-round training would be a good solution, not that this is news.
In these parts and over beer and smoke, we've identified that there is no
way to ever move seasonals up the ladder into single resource boss
positions as long as the majority of S-230 and S-290 classes are held in
the off-season. If you miss the total of like two or three of these
classes that are held in the entire country in the off-season (my numbers
are, of course, sarcastic estimates), you cannot get a taskbook initiated
until the NEXT SEASON. Seriously, this is no way to move people up into
CRITICAL positions that are apparently short everywhere (???). One
solution, in my opinion? Use some of this "extra severity
funding" to hold an engine academy or 12 this year ASAP, and/or other
single resource academies, and move some folks who are already working on
engines and in other misc fire/haz fuel positions into these trainings so
they will be around and ready to supervise NEXT year. It may not help this
year's shortage, but it sure might stem the problem next year because task
books could be completed THIS SEASON. Maybe this is a local problem, and
it's not a crisis yet, but we have more than one engine sitting around in
these parts without a boss for it. Serious waste of resources in my
opinion.
Well, there's my ranting for the week. How is it that you get useful
ideas through to people who can actually make changes? A silly question, I
suppose, but I think we have some severe training and planning shortages
that need to be acknowledged and effectively dealt with by someone other
than an uneducated Congress. I know we have the staff and the capacity
within the fire community--how come it is that we never see a serious
investigation into something until firefighters and/or homes burn up?
Seems to me like this season could use some serious investigation at the
outset before MORE houses burn up, and so on... Maybe I'm just grouchy
because I need some sleep.
Take care all and stay hydrated... good lord it's hot out here (okay
Ab, maybe I'll concede some of your points about California from last
summer now... those mountains in the southeast were not nearly this WARM!!
I'm not giving up that they were hilly as hell though. You have to give me
credit however... I did move out here to see what all of the fuss was
about yer "western slopes" being "tougher" than what
easterners had to deal with, and so on. Of course that wasn't the only
reason... :)
rochelle |
| 06/22 |
hey Ab,
Was wondering if you could post this for old fire guy in response to his
question about a 13/13 position. I just relocated to the east for a
computer/GIS job and am realizing that fire is where I really want to be.
I have 4 seasons of helitack/heli-rappel experience in Idaho and
California and am willing to cut out of my "real" job to go back
to fire.
I'd love to hear more about his job and any others that are out there.
I have been checking out the USAJOBS site on a regular basis, just waiting
to send out some apps. What type of jobs are you looking to fill on your
forest?
You can find me at firepup21@yahoo.com. I am a different firepup than
Tiny the firepup from region 6. Don't want to confuse anyone.
Thanks for the forum, keep up the great work. |
| 06/22 |
> Ab -- Green binary goo! Say what??? We need clarification...
OH, I get it! You still bleed green, like USFS green with some computer
nerd genetics thrown in?! A family *TRAIT*? In the past there would have
been no hope, simply have to love you anyway (like the father who beats
his kids-- but they love him anyway cause he's their dad?!) NOW -- Well,
they're mapping the genome, perhaps those faulty genes can be repaired!
Or, Dear Abercrombie, is it more like *LOYALTY* -- misguided perhaps -- in
which case we could re-educate you? (Dunnow here, maybe we should be
emulating you!? [quizical eyebrow raised][head tilted]) Now, don't pull
out that turbojet you once threatened me with!!!! Iffin you do, I'm going
to get me a big red brush truck with a big welded
pusher-apparatus-out-front like BC Davis that can mow down almost anything
in its path if you're on flattish ground! CHALLENGE: Nozzle against brush
truck on flattish ground (if we can find some)?
(BC will you loan me yours? I promise not to total her!)
Yep, BC and me, we did tie in for several hours... Even had a quick
hug. (Wife, ya know!) I did take some pics of the wildland fire apparatus
he has -- neat-- and we told fire stories, talked about the insidious
politics of fire and about WILDfire in the NJ pine barrens that RIPS, like
fire rips through CHAPARRAL! We're planning a brief joint post about fire
and the pine barrens with pics when they come back! I took a picture of
him, too, but I know Ab won't let me post anything personal like that. I
think he's afraid someone will demand he post a self-portrait of the
webmaster guy with the green binary goo in his veins and it'll blow his Ab
image... [little, low chuckle]. Hey Ab, am I ever gonna get a hug???
[clear direct look]
Mellie
I'll drop the turbo and go rustle me up a dragon wagon! Heh,heh,
heh. Ab. |
| 06/22 |
Ab;
Went to the Russian Jet site. Impressive but NOT. 135,000 lbs, in
retardant that would be 15,000 gallons US. Just what we need, a bigger
MAFFS tanker. The article says to build us more tankers in their other
(surplus???) aircraft, they'd just build more cans as thats all their
tanks are, cans with doors on em. How would they get coverage levels??
MAFFS gets it by dumping one or two tanks, no doors, no finess, just a
dump truck approach. Thats OK at 1500 gals at a pop, those MAFFS guys are
good, but it isn't the same at 7,500 gallons a pop. Whats the stall speed
of that thing?? 250 knots?? We get some hellacious turbulence off a SEAT
or P3 at 250 feet and 120 Knots, what will happen when that huge set of
wings goes by???? And we already know how tough it gets for tankers to get
into some of our terrain, how does this thing handle at low speed AND low
altitude ??? Wouldn't want to have one drop on my head. I heard some where
a 747 drinks 10,000 gallons of fuel an hour, whats the REAL cost of flying
this ??
I saw this at another bulletin board awhile back and I tried to go to
the web site the article listed for "GLOBAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE"
"www.emerjet.com" and my browser says there ain't one. Sent Mr.
Anderson an e-mail at his HOTMAIL (??) address and haven't received a
reply. He and his staff must be overwhelmed with work and e-mails and all
so I guess I'll wait a little longer. Wonder who in Aviation they talked
with, wasn't an R5 lead as far as I can find out. Why does this BS get
spread around, making us look like we'd refuse to use a valuable tool when
as far as I can tell most of em are just junk someones trying to pawn off
on the Government?
Guy
Ab posted the referred link because he wanted to provide an example
of what's being said about the USFS being unable to take care of it's
wildland fire threat and the alleged failure to use all available
equipment appropriately.
As for how and/or why BS gets spread and recieves attention. . . BS in
the media is normally driven or pushed by organizations focused on a
select target audience who filter incoming data to conform to their own
pre-conceived ideals. BS media may often be discerned by the author
or web site's failure to acknowledge and/or publish dissagreeing
viewpoints. BS media proponents frequently target those unable to
discern reality from propoganda. The media audience may be
without personal experience to justify their opinons other than relying on
additional popular or similar biased media. REAL information
exchange comes from sites like wildlandfire.com and folks like you, Guy,
who view, dissect, and have the courage to dissagree with published mass
media information.
Abercrombie also wonders why everything with "Environment" in
it's title seems so ignorant or antagnoistic to those of us who dedicate
their lives to actively protecting and preserving it!
Abercrombie |
| 06/22 |
Interesting to note the apparent inability to staff "augmentation
resources" with the "extra money." Now why would that
surprise any observer of the wildland fire fighting community? Which I
might add, the givers of the coin probably are NOT. So there is a shortage
of fire fighters, Jeez; you think after nearly 15 years of steadily
cutting the budget and workforce, while at the same time attempting to
make the whole spectrum of the remaining faces reflect the general society
at large that this wouldn't come at such a great surprise. But you know
what, I'm here to bet, that at the higher food processing positions, it is
a surprise; 'cause that's how out of touch with reality a top-heavy
bureaucracy evolves.
The answer of course is to tell the American public, our elected
representatives, and okay maybe the Washington Office (read State or local
if you don't bleed green), that a well-funded wildland fire fighting
organization is an ultimate necessity. Especially at the inital attack
level! Tell them that funding to cover IA is really necessary because
there is no "militia" available to be the second wave; and it's
going to take those contractors & cooperators a little while to get
there.
Take the time and tell them today.
Please oh please Honorable Elected Official, look truthfully into the
smoke reddened eyes of a wildland fire fighters and ask them what they
want most? (Besides clean socks and underwear.) (Okay, and maybe the
agency buying them their boots.)
As this fire season starts to cook, we all need to let them know OUR
issues.
That is, the issues of the rank & file. The groundpounders. The engine
slugs. The rotorheads. The dispatch darlings. Those tried and true militia
that still serve.
How about getting rid of the federal pay cap on overtime?
How about federal hazard pay counting towards your retirement?
How about being classified properly as a fire fighter?
How about funding at the most efficient level or (gads) even higher?
How about making this funding permanent so a workforce can be supported,
trained and be available?
How about a federal fire fighting agency?
How about............
........okay I've ranted enough.
But, so how about it?
Maddog
Yes Maddog. So easy to cut and trim a little here and there during
the wet years. Not so easy to find qualified, experienced leaders
afterwards. Nice to be hearing from you again! Press on with the good
fight my friend. We gather beside you. Ab. |
| 06/22 |
In regard to the BC and the nephew wondering what to take in a war bag.
To the nephew. If you were carded by a firefighting contractor and
didn't get an orientation packet with a list of what to take, consider
asking the contractor.
Or better yet take your talents elsewhere. Perhaps the contractor
doesn't have it together and your just seeing a preview of things to come.
Fudgie |
| 06/22 |
Announcement: lil' timmy's running around the fire station
Hello to all you wildland folks out there!! Just want to let everyone
know that our beloved Assistant Chief, AZ Trailblazer, has just found out
that he and Cyndi are going to become proud parents!!!! Congrats to the
Irwins! and the future lil firefighter of the MFD!!
The bad boys and girls in blue of the Mayer Fire Management Division!! |
| 06/22 |
Hey Ab and All!!
Those silly kids I call firefighters are sometimes unpredictable. Yea,
I think that the announcement would be a nice posting. I have alot of
friends that I communicate with on "they said", only because
some are soo busy, this is their only avenue to communicate with the free
world during fire season......
Been real busy (no pun intended... :)) with lots of fire activity and
dry lightning here in the Prescott Basin.
Ab, thanks for checking. That was very considerate of you! I truley
feel the family part of this job on this site!! I just wish all wildland
firefighters had access to this incredible arena!!
Talk actch all later!!
Tim AZ Trailblazer
See next post to see what the announcement is. Congrats. Ab. |
| 06/21 |
hey all! got home from florida. i love the state but i will never take a
flight following assingment again. the folks from dof are great and i will
fight fire there anytime. today i had the pleasure of meeting mellie. she
is
great people. for those of you who know her-i feel as
lucky as you all should be. she had a real interest in my station and how
we
do things here in south jersey. i hope you all enjoy the pictures she
took.
the brush truck is my pride and joy. if it came down to my wife or
fighting
fire in the brush truck- well- i would really miss my wife. well enough
for
now. hope to see ya this summer.
BC Davis |
| 06/21 |
physicals in r8:
Took mine today. If you are over 40, overweight, and male, expect the
whole ball of wax. I did not have to take all, except for my interior
structure quals said I did. Passed with no problems, and Doc says I'm
crazy for doing this stuff. I told him if they would check my blood sample
close enough, they would find fire in it. Keep healthy & stay head's
up. adftr
Hmmm. Cut my finger the other day and some green fluid with
what appeared to be bits of binary flotsam floating on the surgace oozed
out. Ab. |
| 06/21 |
Russian airtanker?
If you haven't seen this yet, you need to atleast take
a look at it. Don't know how useful it would be in
the US but wow I sure would like to see it used once.
Its makes the C-130 look like a toy. Then again if
something like this is used where would our O.T. go.
Here's the link.
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/mar99/1999L-03-23-02.html
|
| 06/21 |
Hey! Does anyone have a contact for a Cerro Grande fire T shirt
vendor? I
missed one this trip! Thanks
Mike |
| 06/21 |
Help please with the following. An eastern region (FS)
forest may seek a
firefighter for a 13/13 appointment, option to work additional time
depending on funding. Question is should we look locally and
train, or
are there experienced folks out there who would relocate for a GS 5/6
position?
Ab: you can post or answer yourself if you think it would cause too much
congestion.
Old Fire Guy
I'll post it cause you may need a little help filling the position.
On just my forest this Spring we're trying to fill 13 suppression
positions. Some have been filled, some are undergoing eval panels,
but the lack of diverse applications is dissapointing. Not
unexpected, just dissapointing. As many forests around the
region/nation have received a little bonus suppression funding this year,
they are trying to restaff engines and crew positions that have been cut
in prior years. Not such an easy task to do as it turns out.
So, ok, fine. This year there is more money for more engines.
Now how many FEOs and SFEOs were there last year who sat around unemployed
and waited for this to happen? Where will all the extra overhead
come from to fill these renewed positions? Imagine you're a fairly
happy AFEO working at a nice station, good boss, and a wife and kids.
Are you really going to want to put in for a permanent transfer of station
to an engine that has already been cut once due to lack of funding for a
50 cent per hour raise? Oooops, you may transfer only to find
there is no "bonus" funding from Congress next year. Which
engine would you suspect would be cut? I'd be asking some pointed
questions before I accepted any promotion/position offers this year.
Ab. |
| 06/20 |
Ab and readers,
I have set up a page for wildland fire cartoons and jokes.
www.firetoons.20m.com
The front page is there with a email link. If your readers have anything I
can put on the net please email the cartoons or jokes to me. I would like
to get this off the ground soon. All content needs to be wildland fire
related. I may post things that are specific agency related if its worth a
good chuckle. Jokes, cartoons and IAP covers welcome.
My email account for this ftoons@firetoons.20m.com
Thanks for your time and effort Abe, I'll give this 30 days. If there
is no response I'll take the site down. It was created for IE and is off
set using netscape. I will fix this so it views better on both. Any hints,
helps or criticism will be appreciated. |
| 06/20 |
Tony "Killer" Duprey is back with L.P. 'Shots. Congratulations
Killer.
hk |
| 06/20 |
I'm looking for nomex BDU style pants made by "J&G
Creations"?, I've seen jumpers and shots wearing them. The pants are
made from rip-stop nomex and have reinforced knees and butt. I can't find
the company listed, any info would be greatly appreciated.
Please e-mail me at:
blackhand01@hotmail.com
Thanx, Blackhand |
| 06/20 |
Ab,
Dispatch page would be nice. It does not mean we cant jump in here
every now and then does it?.... Helped the neighbors out with a 100-200
acre grass fire today, wind driven, but not a bad size for this time of
year. Had a 2 acre fire in the timber yesterday on district not too bad
considering that the grass is really green up there. I think we are going
to be busy in Eastern Oregon this summer. Will keep you all posted. How is
everyone dealing with the handing down of more money for staffing? Are you
able to find any qualified folks to do the staffing? We already have 19
rookies and are short a couple of Engine Bosses, detail requests have gone
out but not too many bites yet.
Be Safe,
dispatcher
You'll always be welcome to jump in here. Readers who are web savvy
may also have answers to some web questions that arise. Ab. |
| 06/19 |
Hi
Here is the California Interagency Incident Management Team 5 New Web
Site:
www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team5/
You can link to it if you want.
Pete
Yes and yes again. Ab. |
| 06/19 |
Awake in the middle of the east coast night (while still jet-lagged!)
and I came across new websites for Steve Gage's CA team 3 and Dale Dague's
CA team 5. Terrific idea! Market on!!!! Let's see all of them! The public
want to know our firefighter overhead!
www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team3/
www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team5/
Mellie |
| 06/19 |
Greetings folks. After some some persistent encouragement and
promise of assistance, I'm beginning construction of a "Dispatchers
Corner" area for this web site. I welcome any and all thoughts
from dispatchers on this subject as I develop the content. I've
noticed quite a few dispatchers responding to questions the last few
months and I appreciate their experienced input. I'm aware there are
many different agencies using a wide variety of software programs and
computer equipment to try and meet their responsibilities without adequate
support or information exchange. Ideas under consideration include
pages for links to common software and updates, a similar posting area as
"they said" for submitting questions or answers, sharing of
existing web site links to enhance dispatcher's capabilities. Ideas
for discussion already include DMS (why the heck can't they provide a form
with selectable boxes and a submit button), WildCad, MIRPS, what do
I do when my C drive fills up, updating radio consoles, where to go to get
a good training assignment, and use of mandatory uniforms. Again, as
I ponder the development of this area, I invite your comments and ideas (I
may also be looking for experienced widlland fire dispatchers to consult
and a volunteer for site maintenance). Abercrombie. |
| 06/19 |
Hi there.....
I am a BC in a city fire department in northern CA. My nephew just
joined a
private outfit in central OR and has been carded as a hand crew member. He
called to ask what he SHOULD have and what would be NICE to have when sent
out into the field.
I gave him a list of what I take when I go out of coutny on strike team
assignment...but you animals are a different sort and travel a little
lighter....do you have a list of essentials to pass along to a new kid?
Mark
Good question Mark. I won't hog the board here, but will tell
you my MUST have on a hand crew was SOCKS, SOCKS, and more SOCKS.
Other underware is pretty nice too, although it can be reversed and used
over and over. Kidding, just kidding about the other underware.
Ab. |
| 06/19 |
The following has been in my desk for several years, it is titled "common
errors in
firefighting". Although the verbiage is dated, basic
principals of
fire suppression have remained constant over the years. WP
Good post WP. I've added this post to the Archive Page which
is now the home to "They Said" archives and all other documents
available which are deemed significant, including those which used to be
on the now defunct Hot Air page. Ab. |
| 06/19 |
Some photos from a fire in the jack pine barrens of NW Wisconsin this
spring.
www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/4754/flamang.html
..Lets everybody be safe out there, looks like it will be a long one.
Jim Gobel
WI DNR |
| 06/19 |
Firehorse,
I don't know what you do as far as fire fighting and I'm not shitting
on you but I can't seem to get my boots to last more than a season,that's
one of the reasons I started to buy Nick's. I worked the last 5 seasons on
a hotshot crew and at the end of the season the tread was gone and the
stitching blew out so I would have to get a rebuild, but my Nicks I would
only have to get them resoled. Some guys on the crew would only get a
month and the stitching on there Whites would blow out. In my opinion
whites are not what they are cracked up to be you are just paying for the
name, Nicks are a way better boots.
Smitty |
| 06/19 |
RE: boots -- the good people at Nick's Boots in Spokane (www.nicksboots.com)
have ALL the information you need about boot care. They (and jillions of
others) recommend OBENAUF'S
for maintenance.
kelly. |
| 06/18 |
ZKP and BC, I'm in Medford now and will be in Moorestown, NJ also. Won't
make it to South Carolina. BC let me know how to reach you (e-mail me at
five_waters@hotmail.com) and let's see if we can hook up. I'd like to see
your setup. Doorsmaurer, thought of you when I saw all the PA signs. You
guys live in this humidity all the time? Going to have to do my kicks
tomorrow before dawn! Today felt like a trek in a sauna or a slog thru
peasoup! Awesome thunderstorms with lightening this afternoon. Had
forgotten how cool that can be!
Mellie
PS Hickman, was tempted to bail out over Missouri. The deciduous woods
here remind me of your neck of the Ozarks only flatter. The birds sing in
a foreign language and hide among *leaves*! |
| 06/18 |
hey mellie! what part of new jersey are you heading to? if you are in
the southern part of the state, let me know. i will give you a tour of our
neck of the woods. we do things a little different than you are used to.
BC Davis |
| 06/18 |
what part of the east are you comin to Mellie?
im headed to south carolina myself tommorow...we're glad to have yuh...
come see some flat land fire!!!
ZKP |
| 06/18 |
Over 30 years I had the honor of owning four pair of Whites. You need to
soak them in water overnight, then wear them till they are completely dry.
This forms them to your foot. The manufacturer told me years ago to use
mink oil and not neatsfoot (sp) oil. Neatsfoot will rot the stitching. You
should periodically flush the insides of the boots with fresh water then
when dry, rub "Lexol" on the inside of the soles. Bootmakers
claim boots wear out from the inside out (Kinda like dry rot). If you run
your hand along the inside soles and they feel cracked it is time for a
resole or rebuild. Whites are good for three total rebuilds. If you take
care of them they will last you for many years!!
Firehorse |
| 06/17 |
Sore Butt in R3
Sorry to hear bout your problems. Thanks AB for telling how things are
done up here. Like Ab said, every dispatcher in R6 - R5 - R4 - R2 - R-1
has a contractor list in front of them. It lists the company name, VIN
number of engine/tender, Make, Model, License#, address, Phone numbers,
and contact person. It lists EVERY piece of apparatus that contractor has,
and they are individually Numbered.
One of my engines here is # 56-04H1-9-117101 another is 56-82X9-0-033
and so on. So it would be hard to say " hey i got this one to"
Unless thay work it under the AD schedule. This is done frequently. Evry
now and then a good deal comes along after contract awards. So you work it
AD.
When I sign my gear up every region does it pretty close to the same.
The gear is inspected, performance verified, minimum inventories met, and
qualifications proven. Every contractors personnel is listed in a national
registry by company name. SS# s are taken at fires. Picture ID in the
regions im contracted is required.
As for "sub" contracting. They really frown on that
everywhere I work. That doesn't mean you cant point them in the right
direction. Just by association and being in this industry most of my
friends are firefighters, and contractors. I know what gear they have, and
if they are available. Last night I had beers with five of my contract
buddies, Between us we represent 25 engines/ tenders, so it obviously is
in our interest to help each other out.
When I get dispatched, they ask what I have available. I tell em- they
order it. When IM out of gear, I tell them about my associates and
friends.
Makes their job easier. and gets my friends work. I do not gouge them
for this, as they do it for me too.
Sometimes (if its a local forest or one that knows me) they will just
give me the "E" number for them. Otherwise They'll call them
directly. About 25% of the work I did last year came to me this way.
I have no idea how long you have been doing this. But it took me three
seasons to make all the necessary contacts to make a living at this. Call
around to the other contractors on your list, tell em whats up. Join the
Associations, go BS with the feds. They know what you are trying to do.
Many of them will be doing this when they retire.
And by the way the going rate for subs is 10% not 20%
I know plenty of contractors in Phoenix, Flagstaff, St.. George,
Albuquerque, Sedona. Give me a call and ill hook you up with them. then
maybe you could help me out someday.
Another note -----As for Radiation badges being issued. All those would
tell you is what you have ALREADY been exposed too. its not like they are
going to beep, or sound alarms. Radiation would be one of the lower risks
in my mind. Id be afrraid of all the unknown crap dumped and not recorded.
Las Alamos has been pumping out plutonium and bombs for decades! since
WWII!!!!!!! There are a number of chemicals produced as by products,
Cesium, arsenic, Chlorines, PolyChlorinatedBiphenals (PCB). Hell I know a
contractor that worked there in the 80s, he says they buried tons and tons
of Asbestos back in the trees (right where GPers would be cutting line.
Secret facilities make excellent dumping grounds.
Eric
Pacific Wildfire
253 221 6903
800 704 4594 |
| 06/17 |
RF - You da Man/Woman/whaterver. A few beers in me now but I have to say
that while it is tempting and fun to flame the WO and fire overhead, let
us not forget that AFM/FAM is really only existing in support of line
officers and whatever direction ends up in FS manuals and policy
statements. Some of the threads here seem to assume that the fire gods
have bottom line control over what happens at the field level. However
much fun it is to blame the WO we must remember that line officers must be
political whores and no matter how much we feel fire is the be all and end
all, it is just another biip on a line officer's radar screen. If Big Joe
and Mary Jo and Al West and Q could be kings/queens of the world they
would probably make sure that MEL was not a joke and that fuels management
was not a band aid and that fire professionals/technicians had the
support/funding/paychecks/respect/grade level that is appropriate for the
current fire situation the country is in. Politics drives everything and
line officers are the ones where the buck stops. If fire had control we
wouldn't be messing with idiotic stuff like FFIS, Primary Purpose,
realignmemt, and other nonsense
(Apoloigies to non FS watchers)
So does everyone know that there is a very cool tower in the WO that no
one is allowed to enter because it has a direct line of sight to the White
House across the Mall? As if Lee Harvey Oswald was a forester).
Pyrodactl |
| 06/16 |
Pyrodactyl
As soon as I left "the beltway" I sold my Allen Edmonds
wingtips on consignment and used the money to rebuild my Whites. Burned my
'de rigueur' canvas Lands End attache in effigy (kept my umbrella -- it
rains alot where I live now) and ordered a 8460-01-193-9769 Briefcase,
Nylon Duck...just like the one I had before I left for the WO. Dug out my
musty old bandanas out of the bottom of my drawer and threw those stodgy
red/white/blue neckties I wore specially for Monday morning "Stand
Up" (Doctor (snip), PhD. always looked so preppy). Kept the
Nordstroms suits in case the K.D. Lang look comes back in. Oh yes and I
had a sex change operation. I hope my cover is good!
RF
[Snip]ing it yourself? Ab. |
| 06/16 |
sitting here in florida working a flight following assignment for the
DOF. not my cup of tea!!!!!!!!!!! these guys have there stuff together and
are well organized. the thunderstorms throw out lightning every day and we
all hold our breath to where the next fire will start. going home in a
couple of days and hope to help out in the west. every one be safe and
keep your heads up.
BC Davis |
| 06/16 |
Don't know where else to go so i'm bringin it here.
There are some contractors operating out here that
simply don't play fair. When they recieve a request for a resource and
don't have any resources left they should say so, that way the requesting
agency will turn the page in the resource book and call the next in line.
But does that happen? No, instead the contractor accepts the resource
number and then sells it to another contractor and just calls it good
business. He then wants the sub. to represent themselves as a member of
his company making it seem as if he has much more equipment than he really
does.
Don't let this happen to you, if you get the call
from this guy for your equipment ask where its going to, tell him you will
get back to him, then make your own call and get your own E number. Every
time you pay him 20% of what should be yours, he gets bigger and you get
smaller.
Signed
BUTT SORE CONTRACTOR IN R3
Where I'm from, each contractor is assigned to a hosting Forest or
agency representative. They come to know each other quite well. When the
local GACC wants to order a contract engine or crew, they contact the
hosting forest. It would be mighty surprising and suspicious to have the
contractor offer up an unknown resource. First of all, if an engine was
requested, it would need to be inspected prior it's dispatch. If it was an
emergency dispatch on the hosting forest, the resource may proceed to the
fire, but the contrator representative will meet them at the fire. The
personnel staffing the engine would also be listed and inspected. Those
personnel not on a pre-approved list prior to dispatch would be asked for
documentation certifying their positions and if acceptable, added to the
list. If inspected on a fireline, personnel staffing the engine not on a
pre-approved list would be fired, along with the rest of the resource,
immediately. Handcrews are also scrutinized and inspected in the same
manner prior to approving and accepting them for assignment, I'm not a
contract inspector and I don't doubt what you say is happening elsewhere.
From my observation though, I can guarantee it hasn't happened on my
forest, though there have been other subtle sleights-of-hand attempted. As
loopholes are discovered and closed, punishment is administered, we
re-examine the contract, shake hands, and the process continues.
I've heard from those who complain about their hosting forests holding
them hostage against the real/imaginary event of having an escaped fire on
their own forest. I understand this is a real problem for some
contractors. I've heard enough conversation to know this complaint is
legitimate. I've also experienced it as a leader of several federal agency
resources. As a resource boss I always subscribed to the policy of
"fight the fires you got" and worry about the ones that haven't
happened later. As a manager, I understand the importance of maintaining
some balance of resources to have a fighting chance against new escapes.
However, as I struggle to maintain the balance and maintain a committment
to a nationa reponse effort, I also desire to admister fair play and
equity to both agency resources and contractors. It ain't easy, but do you
think it would be better if contractors are administered at the National
level as is being discussed and planned for? If you are being held hostage
by your forest, you may. If you have a good working relationship with your
forest you might be in for a very big surprise.
Personally, I think the problem you describe in your email would
flourish with national or even regional administration. I think it would
defeat and play against the ICS concept wherein management of resources is
kept at an acceptable level.
Abercrombie
PS. I think you came to the right place. Name names if you wish. I may
not post it, but I'll certainly pass it along to the appropriate
destination. |
| 06/16 |
Thanks all who e-mailed. RF, I got the whole thing, no [snip]. Amazing,
good coverge on the news last night. Hope someone taped it. Besides
citizens, there are a number of knowledgeable university faculty who are
retiring soon who may also rattle the WO and congressional cages (excuse
me, dilbertian cubicles!) ... We need ever-more capable people who can't
be gagged!
Mellie |
| 06/16 |
RF
I sat in on a meeting with the PHD while I was working as an AD. She
called the meeting and did not even tell her staff what it was about. 30
minutes into the meeting we were still wondering about the reason for the
meeting. She sure didn't like my comments as I didn't have any wart's to
worry about, but she was lost as to who I was and why I was attending a
staff meeting.
Just after SC, she wanted responses from the field on safety, but all
she used were a few snippits for the Chief and Staff Meeting. I don't know
where or what she did with the full compliation of safety replies, but I
have a full copy and plan on putting them on the web.
J-Bob |
| 06/16 |
Thanks to Pyrodactyl for correcting my obvious error in describing the
WO FS food chain.
The "snippet" was beautiful. Now there's a deep spook if I ever
read one.
And please, not Sir, althro the stroke to my ego was wonderful.
Biz. If everyone that reads or visits this web page, would also take
the time to address their specific issues to their elected
representatives, we could build the groundswell that is needed to get the
politico to do what they are elected to do; listen to the voice of the
people, and respond appropriately. If anyone has a line on a transcript of
that national news broadcast where FS types admitted a shortage of ff
resources, pleas let me know.
In March, during my rather educational visit to
DC as an attendee of the IAFF Legislative Conference, a large number of
things became quickly very clear to me. Over the course of this summer, as
each of us survives the Fire Season 2000, I'll share some of these
observations. Let me begin by saying that many structure firefighters are
right there next to the wildlanders in spirit and commitment. Most that I
talked with, could not believe the situation with, status of, federal
wildland ffers.
Their mouths literally dropped open when I told them that yes I fought
fire on the line for 16 years and from the ECC for 11; and yes, I was not
classified as a federal firefighter. Our efforts in educating these folks
went right to the highest level of the IAFF with the new incoming
President. These people are a great asset to us. At the local level I
would encourage each of you to educate those cooperating folks you end up
sharing hot canteen water with on some bust ass scorching day over your
head in Type 13. To conclude today's little rant, retirees do really have
other lives! Our elected reps in DC have these staffs. These are young
kids, some I got my fifteen minutes of fame with, I could have been their
father. They are educated, trained and positioned to be filters. To be
briefers. To be brief. To listen with a sometimes concerned expression,
but mostly to make sure the "boss" doesn't have to deal with
every Joe and Jill that wants a piece of them. I came away with the
distinct impression, that if Senator So and So or the Honorable Who Who
did hear what my partner and I were delivering, I'm sure it didn't carry
the dedicated waver in their voice that my message to them had. So I
returned to my little farm in the valley, committed to keep hammering
these folks. And that's what I ask you all to do. Hammer on them.
Let them know the issues, in respectful, short to
the point communications. Continually. As a wildland fire fighting
community the issues before us at the start of the 21st Century are
massive, no less than life and resource threatening. Each of us can do the
best we can, after all you are professionals; but without opening the
eyes, the minds and ultimately overturning mis guided management, each of
you is faced with more than a few full fiery shifts alone on that
mountainside, while your resource orders are being prioritized at Boise.
Keep on keepin' on
Maddog |
| 06/16 |
All
Just a reminder to be safe out there. There were three New South Wales
Aust. firefighters killed (Claire Dean, George Fitzsimmons and Eric
Furtan) and four seriously injured ( Mark Cupit, Luke McSweeny, Natalie
Saville, and Jamie Shaw) when a fire that they were doing mop-up on took
off. Exact details are still real unclear. Funerals for two of the victims
were on 6/16 (Aust Time). A State memorial service is to be held sometime
next week.
They have established a fund raiser for the frefighters
The Cashier
NSW NPWS
PO Box 1967
Hurstville NSW 2220
Australia
Cards and letters can be sent through
Brian Gilligan
Director-General
NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
PO Box 1967
Hurstville NSW 2220
Australia |
| 06/16 |
Hurray for the firefighters refusing to work on the Los Alamos site. If
you want to really know what the story is, talk to the grunts on the line.
I know for a fact that there are signs on the property, in the woods too,
that say Radioactive and "no digging deeper than 2 feet". I only
hope that the grunt that I know, who fought the fire on the Los Alamos
site never comes down with something. By the way, his crew was told that
the assignment was voluntary. They filled out the paperwork for possible
future health problems.
RH |
| 06/16 |
RF - Kudos on a very insightful depiction of the inner workings of the
WO, I hope your cover is good. I have spent a little time in the auditors
building on details and concur with most of your observations. By the way
I recommend anyone who has the chance to detail there for a short time
(not during fire season of course, so you you do not miss anything good),
if for no other reason than to spend some time sightseeing in DC and wear
a suit or dress for probably the first time in your adult life. I don't
know if they still do it but they used to drag detailers in for a photo
session with the chief and send you home with an embarassing glossy 8x10.
I've never shown mine to another soul. What I found interesting was how
the decisionmaking process in DC seemed to be all over the board -
sometimes they would poll the 'field' and go through endless iterations
and reviews, sometimes whoever was in the room at the time would get to
make the call, and other times somebody just 9/1ed it.
Good times.
Pyrodactyl |
| 06/15 |
In re: to Mellie's question of who [snip]'s boss is and why can't things
change... Mellie -- Mellie -- Mellie... does one REALLY think that once
they get assigned to a cubicle on the second floor of the Auditor's
Building that things really change? Well all I can tell you is what I saw
from my crummy cubicle at WO-FAM. Rather than spend time trying to politic
for another job up the food chain (ah yes -- as one Forest Supervisor told
me, "you must get WO exposure...") I chose to just remain quiet,
do my job and WATCH how issues were handled or not handled. During my
tenure M[snip] and DOCTOR [snip], PHD were the Directors, FAM. They were
[snip]'s predecessors. OK -- who reports to who? Director, FAM reports to
Deputy Chief, State and Private Forestry (SPF).
While I had my neck down in my second floor cubicle, "Big"
A[snip] was the Deputy Chief, SPF. I had a huge amount of respect for the
man. Prior to coming to WO he was Forest Supervisor on the [snip]. I felt
he was very in touch with the national fire program's needs though he had
other arenas to attend to (Coop Forestry, Urban Forestry, etc.). I could
tell his interest was really fire (he had some great fire paintings in his
corner office). At the time [snip] was still an Assistant Director and I
recall taking notes for her during meetings between her and "Big
A[snip]". You could tell "Big A[snip]" was really concerned
about fire. "Now tell me again why we should support R-5's request
for SCBAs???" or "[snip] did WHAT with the air tankers???"
Now M[snip] was a "good 'ole guy" and somehow I could never read
him. You wouldn't think he was the Director, FAM from the way he talked or
the way he presented himself, but I know he had the respect of all of us
in the cubicles. He'd sit in his cubicle and polish his shoes several
times a day.
Now remember Mellie even Director, FAM sits in a fabric partioned
corner no bigger than the BMA's office on a district. Heck -- Director,
FAM doesn't even have his OWN office! Even District FMOs have their own
office! Director, FAM had a plastic cubicle like the rest of us on the
second floor! I felt "Big" A[snip] had the concerns of the
national fire program at heart and I think it showed during his tenure
(199snip-9snip).I thought morale was really strong on the second floor
when "Big" A[snip] and M[snip] were there. Though I sometimes
wonder if their retirements were precipitated by the [snip] airtanker
controversy ---SAD, SAD, SAD.
Along came M[snip]'s successor to Director, FAM -- DOCTOR [snip], PHD.
and "Big" A[snip]'s successor to Deputy Chief, SPF -- [snip].
Now you want to talk about "blind leading the blind." I recall
typing a briefing paper for Dr. [snip] about the differences between a
Type I crew and a Type II crew. Remember I'm preparing this for the
Director, FAM!! As much as I liked her as a person I didn't really see her
sinking her teeth into fire issues. Sure -- sure I'd see her rush off to
"meetings on the hill" but I always wondered what she was
telling them!! I'd shove her briefing papers into her attache and she'd be
off. My question was how could she present the issues in front of
legislators if I'm only giving her the briefing 15 minutes before she has
to speak?? In any event I saw the morale and confidence of the WO-FAM at a
pretty grim time. I didn't get the impression that Deputy Chief, SPF
[snip] ever worked on a ranger district and I know [snip], Director, FAM
never worked on a National Forest (she came from [snip] State DNR).
OK--OK -- so who yields the REAL power?? Let me answer it with this
story... I had to give Asst. Secretary [snip] a briefing a week or so
after the SC tragedy. So I'm sitting in his office ACROSS the street from
the Auditor's Building sipping yuppie Starbucks coffee that he has brewed
in his office while updating him on the Northern Rockies Fire Siege. I
tell him "my BLM counterparts tell me that Interior Secretary [snip]
is going to request an initiative to increase rx burning". He puts
his mug down and scowls "...I'll be damned if I'm going to let Sec.
[snip] of Interior become the National Fire Chief!" Oppps...too much
French Roast, eh [snippy]boy???
OK Mellie there you have it. I think the power to change things resides
in 1.) Deputy Chief, SPF or 2.) Assistant Secretary of Agriculture. Now
let me say this and these are only my opinions and this may sound sad and
somewhat critical... I think there are two types of folks that get into
the WO. Those that want to make a difference (M[snip]? "Big"
A[snip]?) and those that use their position to get ready for the next
position in WO (Associate Deputy Chief?). I didn't see much happen during
the Dr [snip] PhD and Deputy Chief, SPF [snip] days. Was I a trouble maker
when I was at WO-FAM? No, I just kept my head down and ears open...
By the way I've since gone deep -- Deep -- DEEP undercover and feel
secure I can write these things. Ab, thanks for keeping the annonymity
thing going...
RF |
| 06/15 |
Wow,
I did not expect the response to my last post. Apparently a lot of lurkers
agree...including several with the USFS and various state agencies. Major
mismanagement by those in charge of fire suppression and up.
I thought it was interesting that tonight on the National Evening News
(both NBC and CBS) the USFS publicly admitted that there now exists a
critical national shortage of experienced wildland firefighters. They went
on to indicate it will only get worse as the summer progresses.
It was also on the national news that 100 firefighters had refused to
mop up on the Los Alamos fire because they did not believe that there was
no toxic material present. They were offered radiation detectors(badges).I
wonder what the consequences of that will be? I know ADs are not paid
enough to risk that. I would have refused too.
I foresee that as a result of the homes lost...and the admission of a
critical shortage of experienced firefighters the legislators will hold
hearings next session...and a likelihood that the purse strings will
loosen for fire funding...but that the mis managers will still manage to
cover up their part in the major degradation of Americas' fire suppression
ability. This despite the warnings for over a decade. The next few years
will be very interesting for fire fighters.
Dana Linscott |
| 06/15 |
To Dana:
Thank you so much for that clear, well-written explanation. I have
admired your political work, dedication, and focus for quite a while. You
are a role model for me. We desperately need people like you who have
researched the problems in fire, are finding ways to illuminate the
problems to others, and coming up with solutions. You are not alone in
your assessments. I hear the same issues from many folks in the FS at all
levels. You are a particularly articulate proponent for change, however. I
really liked the things you wrote on the MN website. I also agree with you
that the "badguys" are not evil.
I don't know the Jacobson Report. The Rains Report (Policy Implications
for Large Fire Management), stated that hourly rates for state and local
employees were twice as much as for federal employees and three times as
much per shift as for federal employees (p33). The report doesn't mention
contractors. Authors of the Rains Report say, "The Agency does not
have the will to make the necessary fire policy, funding and
organizational adjustment to ensure that fire management is positioned to
be the effective cost-efficient program it needs to be for the 21st
century." The Jacobs Report (An Agency Strategy for Fire Management)
suggests that much of fire suppression will be contracted out. You can
still find these two reports by going to USFS
fire news.shtml, and moving to the very bottom of the news page. You
can download them from there in PDF format. I don't think there has been
any effort to suppress information in these reports, if these are the ones
you mean, it's just that sometimes there are less than competent people
trying to get them up on the web. This gives the appearance that there's a
suppression conspiracy afoot. Information technology is changing faster
than the Forest Service's ability to attract, hire, and pay competent web
people. (Not you Ab! I know you do it for love.) There's also an
antiquated process that keeps the best from being hired. I should talk to
Congress about that!
Cruz's address is the Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management,
but Lavin is listed as the Director. Cruz is not anywhere in that WO
directory. See for yourself! ....Confusing.... I do need to get some
of this straight before I take off on Saturday. Other than that, I will
have to be careful to speak only from experience as I make my way in this
new arena. Luckily, some of the people I'm meeting with in NJ will be able
to give me pointers, too. (And hopefully I won't miss any fires while I'm
away!)
To Maddog:
I feel like Tiny, like I ought to call you Mr. Maddog, Sir. Thank you
for decloaking and joining us with your wisdom. I agree with you that
firefighters are a professional lot. I have never seen people who study
and train as hard as we do. We should talk some more about that. LATER…
BTW, when I worked on the acronym list, your posts often made me laugh
so hard that tears ran down my face. I still recall my favorite, but I
think Ab would censor it if I recounted it at this evolution of theysaid.
Anyway, suffice it to say that you are one of my heroes of this website.
You, Ab, Ramble, and Pathfinder, what a thing you had going in the
"early days" trying to get this forum off the ground. Thank you
for your vision, your humor, your sacrilegious turn of phrase. I'm glad
you're not dead and that you're not Ab's creation -- I was never exactly
sure that he wasn't talking to himself those years ago! And Abercrombie,
thank YOU for your persistence! Now all we need to hear from is
Pathfinder and theysaid will have come full circle! Welcome back, Maddog,
Sir! [little salute, heels clicked together]
Thanks for the help, everyone.
Mellie
If anyone can lay out the WO fire hierarchy with names and positions,
please e-mail me at five_waters@hotmail.com ... |
| 06/15 |
Actually Big Joe does not report to the Chief. The Director for Fire and
Aviation reports to the Deputy Chief for State and Private Forestry,
whoever that is at the moment.
Pyrodactyl |
| 06/15 |
The SMOKEJUMPERS 60th ANNIVERSARY celebration will be held this
weekend in Redding, California. More information's available from the Region
5 Fire website, the USFS
Fire News page, and the National
Smokejumper Association. The festivities celebrate 60 years of
interagency smokejumping history, hosted by the Region
5 Smokejumpers.
kelliness. |
| 06/15 |
It's true, I've been lurking in the background, absorbing the excellent
dialogues, comments, observations that this fine site sponsors. To ALL of
you, keep on, keepin' on! Some of you may recognize the moniker that signs
this posting, most will not; let it suffice to say, I retired after 27
years of federal wildland fire fighting, a couple seasons ago, however, I
still slam hotline in other ways.
As a true fire fighting dinosaur (Fire Control
Aid, circa 1965), I just wanted all of you to know, that this season has
all the classic early manifestations of a very HOT, LONG, and dangerous
one. Please be careful, trust those instincts, and trust those around you
that you can. Watch Out!
Someone recently commented that we need to market
FIRE. They certainly were on the right track; what we need to do is break
the corporate/company/mass media control line, and get the truth out to
the general public. Each of us needs to find a way to educate our
legislators who see virtually only the white wash that is painted before
them.
Somehow, somewhere, the simple statement: (for the
Federal sector) must be answered without the gobbygook of political tongue
twisting -
"Why doesn't the Forest Service Fire
Management organization receive funding at the Most Efficient Level?"
Jesus, we certainly spend enough of the tax payer's money trying to figure
out what that level is.
Another brief comment. There are many many irons
in the fire of wildland fire fighting, and regardless of the color of your
uniform, or the structure of your organization, there is one shared
factor, doing the job. It is an honorable profession whether it's your
full time gig, or something you've stumbled into as part of a volunteer
department.
Finally. Some asked who Joe Cruz boss is, why that
would be the Chief; however, in the unreal world of executive branch
politics, the line of authority is very blurred by the shades of covering
one's ass. The Forest Service has NEVER honestly admitted to itself, that
YES, by God, we actually do have professional fire fighters. Still, to
this day, some of the most elite professional wildland fire fighters in
the world, are humbly tagged Forestry Technicians, are not classified
properly, are not compensated equitably; yet continue to answer the
sirens' call (those left) unselfishly. There is a whole bunch more I can
ruminate on here, well save that for another time.
Be safe.
Maddog |
| 06/15 |
So Cal Dispatcher,
I was happy to see your response to the WOMEN on CREWS. When I worked
on the Prineville IHC we had 8 Women and 12 Men. The women have a tendency
to balance out the crew, they definitely had as much stamina as the men.
It is not who fights fire better, it how you use the skills to make an
effective crew. I can tell you that the ones who where whining and
complaining about being on the same piece of real estate for several
weeks, were the MEN, not all of them, but we had several. One in
particular was even sent home because his attitude sucked and it was
bringing down the crew, and being in California in 1987, we did not have
time for the bitching and complaining. The assignments were tough, and as
a crew we just did not need that kind of attitude.
The years I was on the shot crew, we had two distinct crew
personalities. The first year we lost a crew member to a drunk driving
accident, the crew was very tight that year. We were not as physically
strong, but we could outlast most, mostly on attitude. The second year we
had a very physically strong crew, the women were doing 60 push-up's in a
minute (yes that it chest to the ground), but we had the "Bitchers
and Complainers", and it brought the crew down, so attitude was
really poor. That makes for a long season, especially when you are still
in fire camp and it is a week away from Thanks Giving, and you are
wondering if the caterer is going to feed you processed turkey for dinner
next thursday.
I really believe that the fire fighters that we bring up through the
ranks are only going to be as good as we teach them to be, men or women.
We all need to ensure that we are passing along our knowledge and
experience to these new fire fighters. Teach them to take pride in what
they do, and TEACH them how to do it safely, so they make it home after
every assignment.
The deal with stamina is all BULLSHIT, you have to be physically fit to
do the job that we do no question about it. A good PT program, and some
crew competition is a must. This crap of just because you are a woman you
don't have the stamina to keep up is BS.
Spent some time in Santa Fe Zone Dispatch in May, would like to thank
the folks down there for making my time so enjoyable. I would like to say
they have their act together, and have a good group of support people
helping them out.
Have a safe season folks,
Dispatcher |
| 06/15 |
Mellie,
The bad guys are not evil...they are just afraid of their superiors
either discovering they have made or failed to correct major mistakes.
Some of these mistakes may have been inherited when they got their
position...and "hidden" by whoever had the position previously.
Some are clearly not competent to perform their jobs. Most "bad
guys" simply are not used to being criticized by folks that are not
their superiors.
I am unfamiliar with the Federal scene...I had to take the USFS to
court to even get strait answers to my questions. If you are asking who is
ultimately responsible... that would be the guy at the top of the
organization. It has become obvious to me that before he takes any heat
all the folks below him will have to take it first...and they work hard at
deflecting responsibility so unless it becomes a national issue little
will change quickly.
But that is currently happening...lot's of homes burning makes the
taxpayers uneasy. As we all know...due to the continued explosive growth
of the urban interface nationally (its a nice place to live) more homes
will burn each year. Looking at the MN fire occurrence maps for the past
decade I can see this clearly...the vast majority of our fires start in
the Minneapolis interface... those are the fires that become TV images.
When homes burn more questions are asked than when firefighters burn...sad
but true.
The GAO recently published a report clearly stating that there is now a
shortage of wildfire fighters and that in the next few years it will
become a critical shortage. They were led to believe by the USFS that the
immediate problem could be ameliorated by simply brining in more
ADs...which apparently they think there is an endless supply of. And that
is a big part of the problem...there is not. As long as the mid level
folks believe that they have an endless supply of cheap labor...which can
be treated like the average employee in 1924 not 2000 ...all serious
wildland firefighters will not receive the pay, benefits,or respect that
they are due.
There was also recently published a report (Jacobson ?) which as I read
used actual firefighting costs to determine who put out fire most
effectively. Feel free to correct me if you think I have mis read it. It
said as I recall that "local" (state?) resources are the most
expensive costing much more than federal which was the second most
effective fire fighting force. The most cost effective fire fighting
resource was PRIVATE CONTRACTORS!!!! It appeared to me that the report
also said the folks generating the report felt that nearly all the reports
generated in the last few decades had NOT been implemented and they felt
that this ones recommendations would also be ignored. Pretty cheeky folks
either close to retirement or going into other lines of employment I
thought. There was some evidence that the WO level folks had tried to
suppress the report...unsuccessfully...but I notice that it is not widely
disseminated.
VFDs are also experiencing a real problem with filling their ranks with
experienced fully trained firefighters. Most are not trained or equipped
to fight wildfires...and are rarely compensated adequately for their
efforts. I have found in general that the people responsible for actually
fighting fires are exceptionally responsible people...and responsible
people usually take on more responsabilitys...take them seriously and can
soon no longer afford to go fire fighting. In a free market economy the
fewer (insert commodity here) available, the more it costs. Currently
there is only the beginning of a free market economy when it comes to
wildfire fighters...thanks to private contractors in the equation. The
compensation paid by private contractors IS the true economic value of
wildland firefighters. Currently the free market value is over 3 times
what ADs get. That is a substantial difference.
So remembering that the primary efforts of any bureaucrat are directed
at covering their own ass so they can continue to be compensated at a much
higher rate than dictated by a free market...more and more fire
suppression responsibilities will be directed to private contractors. As
these contractors need more experienced employees (compensated at 3 times
the fed rate) the endless supply of ADs that the Govt is depending on in
the future to make up fo | |