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02/28	Ab, A few more thoughts on contractors. Although the Federal scene MAY slow down for private fire suppression contractors due to an increased level of funding and a corresponding higher level of staffing no one seems to be addressing the lower level of fire staffing that states may experience due to their "emergency hire" AD types being "siphoned" off to the new fire positions being created by the Feds. Our states’ Dept. of Natural Resource "fire program" head stated that "we’ll be stripped" when asked for his thoughts on what the Federal funding would do to Minnesotas’ ability to find/hold onto qualified wildfire fighters. I also seem to remember that when the funding first came through many regional managers were feeling that it would take several seasons before they could fully staff the new positions...has that changed? It would appear to me that the current "snafu" , if not simply attributable to bureaucratic inefficiency, works perfectly to "lateral" existing non-ADs into the best positions rather than opening positions up to everyone in a genuine effort to beef up our national fire suppression forces as the 100%MEL was intended to do. Regardless of how the shells are shifted there exists a national shortage of experienced wildland firefighters...and there is no quick fix for that...experienced firefighters cannot be created as it takes seasons to accumulate experience. While a vast pool of experienced firefighters may exist in the former ADs’ that have chosen to no longer fight fire...I see no effort currently being made to lure those folks back. Someone please tell me I am wrong! Fireronin
02/28	If you haven't tried the new *wildlandfire news page* (link at top of theysaid), I urge you to do so. Right now, one article (Seattle Times part 3 of 5 parts, "In Wildfire's Way: Keepers or Loosers") is about the Concow Fire that burned last summer in the Sierra foothills near Oroville CA. When you link to the current installment, go to the end and read parts 1 and 2 first if you havven't already. It's a well-written, gripping story, one the public and Congress (and GS-rating certifiers) need to hear in making decisions about how to make homes firesafe, at what level to fund fire, that all structures can't be saved, and how to acknowledge and pay firefighters fairly. Mike-- Storm King weather (Go to the links page for weather, click on one of the programs, enter the location (Glenwood Springs CO in this case) and you've got it): -- www.weather.com/weather/local/USCO0162 Firescribe
02/28	Mellie, Rio Bravo is a Kern Co. Fire Dept. Hot Shot crew and as far as I know they are type 1 rated. Ab here's an address for the Bear Divide Engine on the Angeles WWW.Beardivide.4mg.com/. On another note about all the hiring. I did not hear a thing from the Forest Service on a job offer, but was contacted by the NPS on my interest at one of the parks I applied for and was told I was at or near the top of the list. Go figure. The day after I sent in the NPS application I was contacted for employment with yet another agency (non fed)for a position that is not totally fire related but is year round and better pay. It's nice to have options for once. Options
02/28	Might I suggest Njine 19 { www.beardivide.4mg.com/ } in the L.A. River Ranger District @ the Bear Divide Station of the Angeles Nalt Forest? Super site. Danny
02/28	Hey, Ab, Here's a little "Mellie adventure" for ya, from last summer -- but just got around to putting it together... Mellie PS. I hope the desk audits for the GS-8 Engine Captain are going well with the classifiers. <fingers crossed> <candleometer lit><vortex awhirl><sure to draw attention of the gods>
02/28	Have not posted lately, but continue to be impressed with site. Usually read right after fire weather forcast. Like all the new additions and upgrades. Keep up the excellant work. adftr
02/27	Just wanted to bring you up to date on a few bullets about Florida -- Florida has issued a burn ban for all types of open fires (including recreational) south of a line running from Jacksonville over to the south end of Dixie County - which means all of Peninsular Florida. Many areas in Florida have not seen significant rain since September - some none at all. Many cities are finding their water resources are now not only in short supply but simply gone - no water for lawns, bathing, and in some cases drinking (water is being shipped in containers to some locations). Organic Soil fires are becoming the norm - yesterday we had a 10,000 acre fire on the Brighton Indian Reservation in Broward and Hendry Counties. 12 miles of I-4 between Orlando and Tampa has been closed for over a week - opened today. Climatologists have indicated that we can expect below average rains through the summer (our monsoon begins on average about mid June). Fires and acres have already exceeded (by several orders of magnitude) the same time periods in 1998-2000. James D. Brenner Fire Management Adm Florida Division of Forestry
02/27	Jobs page, Series 462 and 455 are updated. UT is looking for some flame-n-go type engine folk. Ab.
02/27	It were back in 85 or 86, I think. Me and the crew were cutting some scratch line over the top of a ridge and down the other side of a not too steep point under some shady pines. I was up front of the crew by about a hundred feet or so trying to figure how we were going to link into a rock outcropping. I heard a bunch of yelling and cuss'in coming from back of the line and turned to look. Here come one of my boys a runn'in to beat the band! Damned if there wasn't another of my crew a chas'in him. He too was yelling, but he was swinging a shovel like ta chop the other guys legs off. I started heading towards 'em in a big hurry, but right 'fore they got up to me, here they went off in another direction. That guy in front was screaming like the devil was after him. Soon's I got close enough, I saw what looked like a piece a rubber or something a hanging off'a his boot. It was a flop'in and a dragg'in, but I then saw that it seemed to be a moving by it's ownself. Right after that I seen what looked like a snake done attached to the guy. Well. . . I finally got the guy with the kamakazi shovel to quit chasing him and then got close enough to talk the runn'in man slow down a bit. Turns out there was a little rattlesnake done got disturbed and tried to take a bite outt'a the poor feller. Christ, poor little rattler wasn't nearly a foot long. Instead of getting a bit of flesh, seems like the poor snake got its little teeth hung up in the nomex.pants. So, the guy looks around to see what hit him in the boot (yes, they still can hit ya hard), sees it's a rattler, and takes off running. So they guy in back of him sees his distress and thinks he's a go'in ta chop off the snakes head. So there they went, the poor little critter just a hang'in on and flopp'in all over the place. Must'a ran over a couple hundred feet fore they got to me. Well, ya think now that everything is done after I came into the picture, that all is well. Not yet son. Now, a runn'in down the hill towards all of us is this other person a scream'in and yell'in. Who the hell can that be? Turns out, it was the Safety Officer who only saw that there was one screaming person chasing another with a swinging shovel. One of the funniest things I have ever seen. I hope they read this. Old Crewboss Good one. Anyone else with a tale to share? Ab.
02/27	Mellie, I believe RIO BRAVO is a Kern Cnty crew {7} located @ station 72 in Lake Isabella. They may also be a mixture of Federal & Cnty personel. I do not know if they are a flight crew. I also believe Kern Cnty Fire placed a new Helicopter in service last summer but I do not yet know where it is positioned. I also believe there is yet another crew located @ the base of the mountain @ the Keene station, I know there was a helicopter there last year, I believe BLM. Danny
02/27	I am looking for any info. that anyone might have on hiking Storm King Mt. in a couple of weeks. How much snow should I expect, how long is the hike, etc. Thanks. sec: I remember the milk drinking contest. I also have some good pics. I'd like to see yours as well. Were you with Baker or Bitt? mike Go to photos, then miscellaneous. Mellie and some firefighters hiked that hike Christmas of '99. If you click on the description under one of the photos she describes the trail length, steepness, etc. Maybe a reader can fill us in on current weather/snow depth conditions or point you to a number to call in Glenwood Springs CO. There's a memorial park there also. Ab.
02/27	BLM Bob, Sooner is now. Contracts have already been signed for broadcast burning by private contractors on Federal lands. Stu
02/27	Mellie, Rio Bravo is a Kern County Hotshot Crew listed in the California Mob Guide as a Type 1 Hotshot Crew. They are configured the same as fed IHC's with a superintendent & two foreman, a supe rig, two crew carriers and lots of radio's. In the last few years they have been in the rotation for dispatched as the rest of the R5 IHC's. A hardworking professional crew. Tony
02/27	Sorry to rehash this again, but could someone please clarify the date that apps must be postmarked and received by in order to be considered for yes, you've guessed it friends and neighbors....Round 2 of the hiring circus? I have heard 2/28 and I have heard 3/14. Anyone? Anyone? Thanks in advance and good luck to all. K. Depends on what category of hire you are. Here it is again. MELmadness Look at the top schedule for the permanent MEL and other jobs. A Job-FAQ page should be done in a day or two. This schedule will be available there, also. Ab.
02/26	Readers, we put in a link to our *new* "Current WildlandFire News" Page at the top of theysaid. This media firenews page provides links to newspaper articles on wildlandfire. It is updated every time you open it in your browser window, so it is always current. Click on it. It takes about 20 seconds to download. Catch a glimpse of that the media says is happening in wildlandfire around the US and the world. We greatly appreciate the news reports and other info that Firescribe has provided so faithfully to the theysaid community over the last 6 months. We hope these contributions will continue and that this will make Firescribe's job easier. Happy reading! Ab.
02/26	To BLM Bob, Great response to AZ Trailblazer. Your reply was good information and a well-thought prediction of fire contractors' future. These next few seasons will be tough on the private sector. Competition will be very intense for work. Many contractors have new vehicles and equipment additions coming into service this season, after a couple of good summers. The private sector has invested money and invested in more equipment to help meet the Nation's wildland fire suppresion needs, in a huge way, over the past 10 years. I hope that the powers that be realize the validity of contracting fire companies and that we are still able to fight fire a couple of years down the road. Rock
02/26	Those of you who had trouble with the scannable Schedule C from Avuedigital on the FMO/AFMO/contracting/public affairs/computer specialists permanent positions, and were granted an extension until Feb 28 to get that in (even though the MELmadness schedule said earlier), there may be yet another extension in the works. The forms are not yet available in their complete form, so we folks may get a few more days before the final curtain drops. Stay on top of it! Get your forms and get them in as soon as you can. Don't let opportunity pass you by. Brinkley
02/26	Ab- That list of Hotshots didn't include the Flame-N-Go Hotshots. They are no longer a prison crew. I think after the two members on the Flame-N-Go type 2 crew were killed last season- they have disbanded all of the Flame-N-Go crews...the Hotshots, the Engine Strike Team, and the Type 2 handcrew. The engines are being used throughout Utah, the Hotshots are still a crew, just not inmates, and I think the type 2 crew is obsolete. They were a good crew- I worked with them on the Salt Lake Desert Complex, and on the Swain Fire. Brett-
02/26	I do not know why it is always misspelled but it VANDENBERG HOTSHOTS, VANDENBERG AIRFORCE BASE. Any way my two cents. Seldom Seen
02/26	Tim (who did the airtanker photos) please e-mail me. Someone's interested. Thanks Ab.
02/26	Here are a list of the new and old hotshot crews. The existing groups have a link. If you click on it, you get address and e-mail of the contact person. New ones don't have a link yet, but you can see where they'll be located. www.fs.fed.us/fire/operations/crews/IHC_index.shtml I think there's another small group (Rio Bravo? maybe 13 people, not enough to qualify size-wise?) that's affiliated with Kern Co or Bakersfield. Anyone know about this group? Mellie
02/26	Ab, I don't see the Vandenburg Hotshots on the list of IHC's. They were the only hotshots on the Manter Incident for several days. They are located on the Vandenberg AFB in Santa Barbara County California. They are a national resource. In my past experiences with Vandenburg they have done a great job. Their Super, Mark Smith, is a strong leader and a great person to work with. Hunter Back from your hunting trip? I'll add it. Ab.
02/26	To AZ Trailblazer, First, congratulations on the new baby. That's great news. As far as your rumor about contractors, AZ State Lands is not likely to send contractors to federal fires because there is a provision in the state constitution that prevents deficit spending past a certain low amount. Because of the reimbursement time lag, ASLD went unconstituionally deep into the red sending out contracted resources to fed fires, even though the bills got paid eventually. They got called to accounts by the state beancounters and will not be providing contracted resources for the feds. As far as the feds go, they will be signing EERAs as usual, but one of the side effects of the new fire money is that many feds aren't interested in contracting resources and will only sign up resources on EERAs. This is not to say that private resources won't be asked to go out, but they will probably be dispatched under EERAs rather than contracts. And there will be less demand for them as the ranks of regular federal fire resources is replenished. This new National Fire Plan money will probably change the game for contractors. Since the feds are going to full MEL, there's going to be a lot less call for suppression contracts, BUT I think there's going to be a HUGE increase in fuels work contracts. There's going to be a lot of chainsaw work thinning and clearing, but sooner or later the feds'll be looking for contractors that can do broadcast burning. There are some policy/liability issues with that last one, but eventually... BLM has been told that we are expected to spend 80% of the new fuels money on contract work. There's some controversy about that, but the intent is clear. BLM Bob
02/26	firepup21: The ArcView symbol set named forestry.avp contains some of the ICS symbols. You will find it in the Av_gis30/ArcView/symbols subdirectory. The application mentioned in jw's response is the Incident Command Mapping Application ArcView 3.1 Extension. The version I have is 2.6 from April 16, 1999. There is a Users Guide developed by Ventura Co. Fire Department. I would suggest you contact them for a copy or the USDA Forest Service, Region 5, Fire and Aviation Management. Good luck. rm Firepup, if you find what you need and you think others could use it, maybe we could post it here at wlf.com. Ab.
02/25	I'm sure all who are interested must know that the National IHC Workshop is meeting Reno (the Nugget) from Tues to Thrus (2/27-3/1). It would be nice to have a report from someone who attends. The agenda is online: National IHC Agenda Here's a nice homepage provided by a hardworking engine crew, FS Engine 65 out of Dry Lake Station, on the Doublehead Ranger District, Modoc NF (northeastern CA). If you want to see the varied work that an engine crew does and where, take a look at their Crew Photos. (Also note their hard-earned GS ratings. Here are people in-the-flesh that a downgrade would affect. It seems logical that if the GS-8 engine captain ratings are reduced, so must the GS ratings of the other crewmembers: the "boss" does not usually have the same responsibilities or supervise those of equal status. As others have said, the implications here are staggering.) Nice job Engine 65 and a very nice website (the only FS engine crew website I could find -- a "first" for the IMWTK list?): Engine 65 Homepage Firescribe Here's one more, Laufman Engine 14 on the Beckwourth District on the Plumas. Anyone know of others? I'll be adding the shots and engine pages to the links page soon. Ab.
02/25	Hey Ab, You forgot the Tatanka Hotshots (USFS) out of Black Hills National Forest. Thanks- Digger Tatanka-- I added it. (We have your Tatanka Logo on Logo3.) The hotshot list will be a'changin this year. If we left anyone else out or we could add any new crews, let us know. Any new shot logos or others to add to the collection? Ab.
02/25	Diamond Mtn Crew Member --- Were you on the crew last season? If so, do you remember the milk challenge on the helispot at Clear Creek? We got some great photos of the event...... sec
02/25	Re the hotshot crew list: I would like to see the list for the new hotshot crews. If you can post the names on theysaid, I'm sure a lot of people would be stoked. Its hard to move up on a hotshot crew. Need to look into a new crew outside Region 5 to move up and have a good say in the rebuilding process. Hawk Send em in. I'll post them. Here's a list of the existing IHC. Ab.
02/25	Stung, Just the fact that the agency would even consider downgrading an already underpaid wildland firefighter is enough to make me puke and wonder why anyone would stay with such a "professional" outfit. Or maybe that should read "dysfunctional"? Tony
02/25	firepup21; I can't pinpoint a source for you on ArcView symbols, but there is an ArcView mapping program used by CA command teams that have ICS incident symbols. It may have been developed out of L.A. County. I saw a demo some years ago at the FIREWEST conference in San Jose. CDF's Forest and Range Assessment Program (FRAP) in Sacramento is the lead GIS shop. The USFS research station at N. Arizona U. has an excellent GIS shop whose work I've seen, they may have some files available. jw
02/25	Actually two new shot crews in CO. BLM crew out of Craig, and a FS crew on the Arapaho-Roosevelt in Ft. Collins. Also the new Rogue River Crew. Some of you other old timers may remember the old Rogue River IR Crew. They were shall we say "colorful". Wonder if they plan to revive the old traditions? (Many administrative types are now saying "gawd I hope not".) Any of you old Rogue River Rats lurking out there? bw
02/24	As of yesterday, the GS-8 captains problem expanded in to the GS-7 engine operator realm.... members of the GS-7 community were also called in for the "desk audits" by WO human resources and OPM classification folks... Here we are, two days before the audits, and additional captains and NOW ENGINEERS are being called upon to give "desk audits" for their positions.... and are not prepared.... The results of non-preparedness are expected... We were led in to an ambush...... The next targets are the HOTSHOT positions, as they were graded on the same merits. All the upgraded positions of Helicopter Manager, Hotshot Superinendent, Asst. Helicopter Manager, Asst Hotshot Superintendent, Fire Engine Operator, AFEO, and Senior Firefighter are all graded with the same factor level 1 and factor level 5 requirements.... And some with the GSSG factor 6, item 4. This is a snowball effect and will spread to all areas of the wildland community if it continues.... The GSSG factor level 6, item 4 .... Physical Dispersion... should be a GIVEN....... How can you compare workers and a supervisor in a warehouse as GETTING THE CREDIT FOR FACTOR LEVEL 6 ITEM 4 when you dont equate the same dispersion exists with "a 5000 foot hoselay with employees of varying experience deployed over 5000 ft. from the supervisor performing a variety of wildland fire tasks in support of the forestry and fire management professions (ie. hoselay, spotfire suppression, equipment maintenance, etc...) exists... All of these contested positions are members of a group of PROFESSIONALS that are rated as technicians or aids in the biological series (specifically 0462 - Forestry Aid and Technician) even though their duties are PRIMARILY wildland fire, prescribed fire, and visitor protection services. (GS-0025/0081 or a new Series to Be Determined) The Forest Service mission is "Caring for the Land, Serving the People" ..... With the changes away from " multiple uses and sustainable yield" the FS in R-5 has basically become a national park system... "recreation and maintenance". If I respond to someone's car fire, their accident, their medical treatment, or some other problem, AND I AM TRAINED AND MY CREW IS TRAINED AND EQUIPPED to abate this problem, is this not within the MISSION of the FOREST SERVICE of "CARING FOR THE LAND AND SERVING PEOPLE"? I value the knowledge and service my crew can give as first responders and emeregency medical technicians and in "....SERVING PEOPLE"..... I am sure the public feels the same way, at least in my area where we respond on over 100 vehicle accidents, several hang glider crashes, several medical aids, and a few search and rescue assignments a year as a FOREST SERVICE ENGINE and have HELPED HUNDREDS OF PATIENTS PER YEAR .....And have protected hundreds of homes and people from wildland and urban intermix/interface fires and problems... "Caring for the Land and Serving People" http://www.fwfsa.org Support proper classification for the proper position in the Federal Service. Federal Wildland Fire Service Association. ~Rookie-Capt~
02/24	Re the hotshot list: as time permits would you send me a copy of your list of all shot crews including {new ones}? Thanking you in advance Danny D952@mohaveaz.com
02/24	Re private contract crews and engines in AZ: I have not even heard of this happening in any states, but if this is the case, they're going to bite themselves in the rump. Private contractors provide the same service as Hotshots or engine crews. Personally I have done both. Now I belong to the private sector and I wouldn't go State or Fed ever again. No disrespect, I just had a bad experiance with one State organization in which, as soon as the season ended, gave us no warning, no thanks, they just walked up to you one day and said, "See you next year, take the rest of the day off." And if all you were in that organization was a fire dog, well if you walked into the front office, the permanent people in there wouldn't even say "Hi" or give you the time of day. I found this occurred in most places. Plus after 4 yrs with one organization, I was getting only 8.75 an hour as an engine boss... Well, needless to say, I went to a private contractor and he pretty much hooked me up. Now I basically make enough in any given summer to take the rest of the year off. GO FIGURE...... Sorry, I digress, as far as that new contract. If the fire season that they're calling comes to ground, I bet that AZ will allow private contractors to come in and help. They will just wish that they had done it sooner. DD
02/24	About the hotshot crews, there is a new one in Cedar City -Utah, Salt Lake City-Utah, Elko- Nevada, and one in Colorado somewhere? In Salt Lake City the old prison Flame-N-Go hotshots aren't affiliated with the prison anymore. There are with the Utah Division of Forestry Fire and State Lands. new crew member of Diamond Mtn.
02/24	Ab, Judd, and the rest of the gang; Judd, Sorry to have missed your request for an interview regarding the AZ State fire suppression delema. As some may know, the wife and I are now the proud parents of a bouncing baby boy. Of course with a new baby at home, my "real" fire job @ Camp Verde, and my "hobby" FMO for the BIA/Yavapai Apache Tribe, no real time to get on the computer and lurk. One of my firefighters gave me a copy of your article in the Republic. Nice job....a lot of questions are being raised by local fire departments regarding thier state cooperative agreement as a result of the article. Seems quite a few fire districts out there were not aware of the financial problems of the ASLD. Another problem has arisen in the Arizona scene, and thought I'd throw it out there just in case some of our private contractor brother and sisters may be having the same problem. Rumor has it, and this is simply a rumor, but the word out on the street (being passed around by the USFS here in northern AZ) is that private contract crews and engines WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO SIGN STATE OR FEDERAL CONTRACTS THIS YEAR HERE IN ARIZONA!!!!!!! I have not had a chance to confirm this information with the State or Feds. Has anyone else heard of this, and are the contract companies from other states going to have a problem with the feds this year??? AZ Trailblazer
02/24	In regards to the post from the WO on Feb. 20, 2001.... I am a federal employee of THAT agency and have not recieved THAT info as of 02/23/2001 and it was addressed to ALL EMPLOYEES.... and I am a directly affected group... To Phyrodactyl: there is an item to replace the old probeye... its called the firefinder... it has its problems though....I have had two at my station and I have had to send both back for re-calibration since I bought them 2 years ago... They work great when working properly but then they go "basserk"... they are useless after that until fixed.. so far the company has fixed all of the problems at no cost..... They assure me that the new model doesnt have those problems.. R5-Capt
02/24	Hey Abe something simple and not cotroversial this time I hope. I am looking for a mouse curser file that is a drip torche. If anyone has one out there has or knows where I can pick one up I would appreciate it. Please send to dripptorch@yahoo.com Thanks in advance, Dripptorch
02/24	Hi all I just writing to let you know that it is a very confusing to me about how to proceed with applying for later rounds of hiring under nfp. I called boise today at 2:49 cst to ask them if I needed to apply again for round 2 if I did not get an offer in round 1. They said , "you do not need to reapply for later rounds." The reason I thought Id share is because I have read from people that are doing hiring at the individual forest level that we should reapply for later rounds. The place I called that told me that I do not need to reapply for later rounds is under this phone number in my application packet: usda forest service Automated staffing program 1249 s vinnel way suite #108 Boise ID 83709 Voice 877-813-3476 Im just a guy trying to break into the profession I figure the only way to get started is to get hired in the first place. Id be happy just putting coats of wax on fire trucks; but with all the contridicting info out there who knows what will happen. I would hate to think that even my slim chances of getting hired where messed up because I did what i was told and my application was dropped. -confuused wannaba searching for enlightenment
02/24	Hawk -- I have a buddy of mine that just accepted a PSE on Rogue River - a new shot crew out of Southern Oregon. Other than that, I have a tentative list of all the shot crews, including new crews, I can pick out the new ones if you're looking for something in particular. In my list I noticed they're adding a shot crew in Illinois -- thought that was a bit interesting. Alan
02/24	For Rookie Capt: The most complete documentation of wildfire fatalities is the "Historical Wildland Firefighter Fatalities, 1910 -1996" pub put out by the NWCG Safety & Health Working Team (NFES # 1849 thru NIFC Pubs). For the complexity of the fire situation in California, they've had a remarkably low number of burnover fatalities over the past 30+ years (since Loop). The record doesn't show much specific to Engine operations. All entrapments/burnover/deployments, both fatal and non-fatal, from 1976-1999 are discussed in the MTDC pub "Wildland Firefighter Entrapments 1976-1999" that Steve Munson and I did last year. (MTDC 0051-2853). It shows that 22% of the entrapments involved engines of all agencies, no Type specified. There were 40 total events, with 19 of them in an Wildland-Urban Interface situation. Nationwide, the USFS and BLM had 44% of entrapments; CDF had 17%. Looks to me that it will be hard to make a case for grade based on these numbers, except to turn it around and claim the numbers are so low given the total exposures BECAUSE of quaility leadership at the Engine Captain level?? Good luck with your effort! Dick Mangan
02/24	WP..yes I would be interested in 330 ppt! ...am still interested in 290 ppt as well, what ever happened to that? Pulaski
02/24	Old Fire Guy, Thanks for the info on the hiring. I couldnt get that amount of info from my own forest, glad to see someone has it figured out, AND actually have something positive to say about it! One question I have is the "quality vs eligible" issue, Who or What rates you as quality or eligible, is it the panel that actually looked at the resumes or the computer that scanned the form C's? I was told by one person that the computer did it all and by another that the panel made the rating. Maybe you can shed some light on that, since you were doing the hands on work. Example Question: A current GS-7 is rated as a GS-8, but indicates the willingness to lateral GS-7, wouldn't the GS-7 position garner a "quality" rating considering the GS-8 rating? these are successive positions, same function, ie. FEO vs SFEO. To All R5 fire capt's, Good luck and thanks for your dedication to your jobs and all your crews, but as far as I am concerned with the downgrade, if it happens, there goes my next rung in the ladder, might stick it out for the 2 years to maintain pay, but with no promotion potential, I will look for a new agency to work for... sad, but loss of pay HAS to be considered with a mortgage and kids to feed. Stung
02/23	Thanks for the info on the R5 engine incident. ~Rookie Capt~ If anyone else needs this information to address the "knowledge" and "scope and effect" of the engine captain's position, please e-mail and I will provide it to you.
02/23	For all of those involved in the engine positions fistfight, keep in mind a couple of salient facts here: Some people see this as a battle between R-5 and the rest of the country. Q: Is the job different in R-5 from the "equivalent" job in other regions? A: That is not relevant to this discussion. Don't let anyone tell you it is. Some people will claim that the upgrade some time back should be undone. Q: If other engine positions in other regions do the same work for less pay, why should R-5 be special? A: That is not relevant to this discussion. Don't let anyone tell you it is. Some say the California guys are not special and they shouldn't be any different from the engine guys in other regions who are doing the same thing for less pay. Q: Should the California engine positions be downgraded? A: The better question is, why weren't the other regions upgraded? There are a lot of people out there trying to make this a California thing. What happened some years back (upgrade) was both valid and validated. This is a stupid time of year for a desk audit - not too many personnel specs can or will follow engine crews around to realistically see what they do. This time of year won't give them a realistic picture like August would. But don't let anyone tell you that what's going on in other regions affects this. It does not. Rather than examine the downgrade in R-5, people should be looking at an upgrade in other regions and why that didn't happen. R-OTHER ENGINE GUY
02/23	For those of you who do not think the Engine Captain decision affects you, here's a little parable for your consideration:   “I must get this written and uploaded before it’s too late. I hear vehicles in the street, the shouts of angry men, and the thumping of boots on the stairs. When they came and took away those with brown eyes, I said nothing. Not my problem I thought to myself. My friends and I don’t have brown eyes. I kind of thought those with brown eyes were arrogant anyway. Maybe they had done something wrong. When they returned to take away those with green eyes I felt bad. I liked some of the green eyes. But I said nothing. After all, they still weren’t bothering me. So I remained silent and thought of other things. They have returned for the blue eyes. They knock heavy at my door. They have come for me. There remain few to witness. Would that I and my neighbors had raised a fist and stopped them when we were strong. Who will protest for me?” Blue Eyes Two easy things to do: 1) Join FWFSA Only $10 a pay period. 2)Write, call or e-mail your congresspeople. (Get your neighbors, friends and relatives to do the same.) To find your reps: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Go down to the zip code option. Fill yours in. You'll get your three reps. Tell your congressional reps engine captains should not be downgraded from GS-8 to GS-7. the current reevaluation of engine captain rating is the result of an arbitrary reinterpretation of a decision that was made and validated in 1997 at the highest levels. GS-8 was and still is the level comensurate with the knowledge, duties, authority and responsibility required for engine captains to do their jobs (if you want to get into it, review the SoCal-Capt post that cites the requirements on which they're being re-evaluated [knowledge and scope & effect] and provides links to documents). evaluating engine captain duties next week in the non-fire season prevents those re-evaluating the rating from seeing first-hand what knowledge, duties, authority and responsibilities are required for this position. at a more general level, pay for federal firefighters is already substantially less than pay for state firefighters doing the equivalent job. such arbitrary decisions affect morale and hiring at a time when we're trying to attract and retain good people to meet Congressionally-mandated MEL staffing goals and fuel reduction targets associated with the National Fire Plan. We loose a lot of them already: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/recruit.htm a reduction in GS captain rating will cause a reduction in GS ratings of positions below the captain level, making it difficult to hire and retain new people. go back and read Mellie's post and, when contacting your congresspeople, cite Clyde Thompson (Deputy Chief for Administration) and Steve Nelson (Director of Human Resources Management) as the bosses in the WO who did not stop this arbitrary re-interpretation when it was suggested by a HR chair-sitter out of touch with reality. You don't have to include all these points, but please contact your congresspeople. And join FWFSA! Ab.
02/23	hey everyone, I am looking for a website where I can download a set of GIS wildland fire map symbols for Arcview. Any suggestions? Hey Ab, Maybe once we find them we could add the link to the programs page? Thanks in advance, firepup21
02/23	My personnal opinion is I would not trust NFFE to back me in the region 5 debate about the engine down grades. NFFE had a hand in getting the review started. I asked the question to two stewarts of NFFE and one stated "we are doing everything we can" and the other stewart had no clue as to what I was talking about. I put my buck behind FWFSA. Brushboy
02/23	We get requests for photo use all the time, sometimes from abroad. Here's one from our south of the border neighbor. Ab. How are you, a like to ask for authorization to use some photos of your web site in our web site, I represent a Industrial Committee ( C.I.A.M.S.)here in Mexicali Mexico. we dedicate to trainee industrial firefighters to help each other in emergencies, we work under authorization of Mexicali Fire Department. Please visit our web site and tell us if we can use your photos. tks Victor
02/23	any info on the new hotshot crews throughout the nation. I know Klamath and Modoc in R-5, but what about the others? Hawk
02/22	FMO's, AFMO's, Captains, Engineers, AFEO's, and ALL: I am looking for information that directly affects the wildland fire community. I know the subject is touchy, but it may, in my view, have a real effect on the outcome of the R-5 Captains issue. Can anyone please tell me or give me the location to find the last time that there was a fatality or major injury directly related to fire behavior, tactics, or strategy on a type 3 fire engine supervised by an R-5 (FS or BLM) engine captain. I am having a hard time finding any info on the internet or internally and it is directly related to the items 1-5 Knowledge Required and 5-3 Scope and Effect of the GS-8 Captains' Issues. The most recent info I have found is from the 1970's. Any help would be appreciated. Everyone -- thanks in advance. ~Rookie-Capt~ Does anyone have access to a database that contains this info? Does anyone remember such a situation? Please let us know asap and we'll pass it on to the Rookie Capt. Ab.
02/22	Next week, members of the R-5 Fire and Aviation Staffs, WO Human Resources, the OPM, and several captains will be meeting to conduct "desk audits" regarding the possible downgrade of the GS-8 SFEO (Engine Captain) position. The meetings will take place on Mon.-- Wed. of next week. I have been told that there are two main areas of discussion. 1) Classification of two items (mainly item 1-5 Knowledge Required and 5-3 Scope and Effect.) These items are graded from statements in the Position Decription (PD) and applied to standards found in the "Grade Evaluation Guide for Aid and Technical Work in the Biological Sciences" dated Dec. 1962. www.opm.gov/fedclass/gs0400.pdf 2) In the classification of the position under the "General Schedule Supervisory Guide" www.opm.gov/fedclass/gssg.pdf, the factor in item 6 subfactor 3 physical dispersion was being questioned. Specifically, it was felt that there was not a "physical dispersion" producing a more difficult situation for supervisors. The Captains contend that they definately meet this requirement and it has been addressed THREE times prior to this issue and each time was afforded as a factor by previous classifiers. I'll just present one example but there are several others. A Captain is supervising a type 3 engine with other engines on a rapidly developing wildland fire. They have been working the fire now for two hours and the captain is 5000 feet away from the engine on a hoselay and away from the supervision of the Fire Engine Operator. Scattered along this hoselay are members of the engine crew who are returning with more hose. Some of these members have radios and some do not. The engines run out of water and they begin to shuttle water from a source that is ten miles away. The engine captain is still supervising this whole operation WHILE HE OR SHE IS PHYSICALLY DISPERSED FROM THE WORK BEING PERFORMED but still responsible for that work performed and the safety of crewmembers performing it.. One example in the GSSG states "a supervisor working in a large warehouse or factory where physical dispersion makes supervision difficult". How could any classifier not realize that physical dispersion does exist with these positions. For anyone interested in the matters of the classification, please read the two above guides and relate them to your official PD. That is how these positions were classified and certified. SoCal-Capt
02/22	WP and his crew have created a S-330 powerpoint. That's Task Force/STL. He says it's large and has several parts. He can zip it and send it to us. If we put it here, would anyone use it? (It takes up a lot of space, so it would need to be used to make it worth storing here.) Ab.
02/22	Thought you would be interested in this story, which appeared in the Feb 21st, 2001 edition of The Arizona Republic online. "Rule risks mutual fire assistance" An obscure section in state law may keep Arizona firefighters from leaving the state this summer - and may threaten part of the basis of fighting wildfires in the West. www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/0220fire20.html AZ Trailbazer mentioned this a few weeks ago. Good to see it in the "news". Ab
02/22	Hey Ab, I sent my application to Boise Back on January 1st. I never recieved a confirmation letter or anything. Finally after some dismay I called them to see wuz up? They said they were still assessing my qualifications, etc. Nearly two months later it is still "pending" Why did I rush through my app to meet the postmark deadline only to have it taking up memory/dust in someone's p.c. or serving as a coaster on someone's desk. And people wonder why they can't get any good help......................................... So anyway I need to go do a few things : 1) Check the telephone connection 2) Check the cordless battery back 3) Unscrew the antannae and put it back 4) Wipe off the foresaid antannae 5) Adjust the antannae in the base 6) Call myself and leave a message 7) Repeat steps 1-6 Rocky Mountain Reject ?? Hang in there, Rocky Mt. I can understand your frustration, try again, as Old Fire Guy said. There are glitches in the system and some of our qualified folks slipped through the cracks in the rush to fill such a big demand. It's worth trying again. Go after Boise much sooner. Don't think of yourself as a reject, but as a persistent and cage-rattling job seeker. We can all learn from the First Round. Ab.
02/22	after seeing the pic of my old nj rig, i had to send another showing the front and of our little sister brush rig. the smaller one follows the bigger one. of course the big one came from my station ! our sister station couldnt handle the "big one!" bcdavis I put it on the Engines2 Page Ab.
02/22	These are fun times, huh? I have a question for the group if we can take some time out from the good discussions on NFP hiring, GS-8 downgrades and union stuff. My forest is looking to replace/upgrade our hand held-infrared units. We currently have Probeyes and a Zadar unit. I am interested in what this group knows about current technology in compact heat detection devices for wildland firefighing. What do people like, dislike, what are the associated costs in dollars and maintenance needs. Any suggestions will be appreciated. I think They Said is a terrific forum for sharing truths, starting and correcting rumors, and staying on top of our fast moving profession. Pyrodactyl
02/22	A reader sent this in. Maybe the engine captain question will be resolved soon. This memo went out to all employees late on 2/20... Ab.
02/22	Effective 2/16/2001, the Department of Interior lifted the hiring freeze for "Permanent and temporary appointments, reinstatements, promotions, transfers........to critical fire fighting, prevention, planning and management positions covered by DOI's National Fire Plan." Firm job offers are going out! Information about NATIONAL PARK SERVICE fire jobs can be found at: http://www.fire.nps.gov/jobs/index.htm A Parkie
02/22	tahoe ted -- From your last posting -- "Example: A Firefighter on the San Bernadino has a wife, 2 kids and a house he owns....wife has a "real" job....he want s a perm job, but because he used his 9 forest choices he gets screwed because he is only offered 1 position, at a location that is 12 hours from his home. If he want a permanant job...he has to take it....and try to get back....or uproot his family and life to move....This in itself will make a hardship claim fiasco. This process is a bottemless pit full of problems.....I would figure that 90% of the people that get jobs are planning on not staying there.....at least if youo have to apply for a particular station or forest chances are the applicants want to really work there. " To my knowledge, there is no "rule" that says you have to make nine selections. If someone doesn't want to move to that particular forest, don't make it a location selection. Just pick the one location you want instead of all nine. If anything, I should be unhappy (I'm not, however -- and I didn't get an offer). I really don't care where I work, and I'm allowed to ONLY pick 9 locations. I'd pick every location in the system if I had a choice..... I may be the only one, but I actually think this is a pretty good system. It saves me from applying to 168 different locations. Something that seems to have worked fairly well for me is the concept that I call everywhere I'm interested in, even if it is not one of the 9 location picks. If I find out I have a shot at one of the locations that is not on my list of nine, I simple email the crew at Boise asking them to switch my current location of XXX to YYY. Since I'm in contact with the individual forests, therefore giving my an idea of where I stand in their hiring process, I know which of my location codes are not benefiting me and which ones are. I used this system last year, and it actually worked. sec
02/21	Well, round one is over. Overall I was much impressed with how it went. Yes there were glitches, but with 15,000 applicants to be reviewed for 1600 jobs, there had to be. Had we had the old system of hand written applications, we would have even more mistakes. Here's the process I participated in. Forests received "certificates" of candidates ranked either "quality" or "eligible" (quality being a higher rating). Veterans had preference and would receive job offers for wherever they qualified. Forests had to choose from the quality list unless that list had less than three candidates.....then they could go to the eligible list. Each forest identified their top candidate for each position. Second and third choices were also identified. Forest representatives (FMO's) met to work out duplicate selections. If candidates were selected for a higher GS position, that had priority. Next, the forest with the longest guaranteed tour of duty (permanent full time vs 13/13) had priority. Allowing a candidate to stay at "home" was next. (Why ask a candidate to move from forest "A" where they had worked 3 seasons to forest "B", only to hire someone else to take a position at forest "A". Efforts were made to contact all candidates as to location preference. Not all candidates were reachable. Forests with duplicate selections shared this information so as to avoid every forest calling every candidate. Once we had resolved any duplicate selections within a region, we repeated the process between all regions to eliminate duplication. Q&A's Q/Why didn't I get a call from every forest I applied to? A/ You might not have been their top candiate, or you might have been a duplicate selection, and only one forest called to check your interest or preference. Q/ Why did I get a job offer from a forest I did not want to work on? A/ You asked for a job on that forest. Don't ask for jobs you don't want. Q/ What happens if I didn't get a job offer (I'm highly qualified)! A/ You may have been highly qualified, but there were more candidates than positions this round. All of my selections were seasoned, quality firefighters. I left on the table 9 additional firefighters that I would have been proud to walk the line with. Please, don't give up! There are going to be more opportunities. More rounds of hiring are scheduled and you could well be within the next group. FACT: Within a year, many of these firefighters will have moved into other postions as foresters, biologists, technicians, fisheries specialists etc....... Think about all the folks you worked with who have great fire talents, but are really looking for a foot in the door for another type of position. Now is not the time to throw in the towel in disappointment. A big thank you to all who applied. You are still in the running! A big welcome to the folks who said "yes" to our recent job offers, you have a great adventure ahead. Old Fire Guy Well said. Ab.

2/21	D-Torch, it won't really scre anything up...it is already there. Qulaity people are losing oout for unfair reasons.... Example: GS-6 seasonal.. with 10 seasons....4 years Army Jumper, 4 years Marines Jumper, Time in Helo, hotshot, and Engines. Not offered a position anywhere. I have seen his application and know his quals... Class action lawsuit would force them to revert to the old hiring method.....you send an application if you are interested in a particular position....the present way will force some people to take jobs they do not want...I fell that is the case with most of the people.. Example: A Firefighter on the San Bernadino has a wife, 2 kids and a house he owns....wife has a "real" job....he want s a perm job, but because he used his 9 forest choices he gets screwed because he is only offered 1 position, at a location that is 12 hours from his home. If he want a permanant job...he has to take it....and try to get back....or uproot his family and life to move....This in itself will make a hardship claim fiasco. This process is a bottemless pit full of problems.....I would figure that 90% of the people that get jobs are planning on not staying there.....at least if youo have to apply for a particular station or forest chances are the applicants want to really work there. tahoe ted
02/21	The original Ab asks a QUESTION upon reading the statement from the NFFE president below. He asks: WHAT ARE YOU and the "union" DOING FOR THE ENGINE CAPTAINS AND THOSE BELOW THEM IN R5???
02/21	While not regarding fire directly, this has some good observations about fed employees, salaries, and the new administration. Also, see near the end of this page, "End of Partnerships". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/politics/fedpage/columns/federaldiary/A27460-2001Feb19.html I actually agree with this decision. There were way too many meetings that included way too many people who did not understand the issues. Critical, time-sensitive issues were often delayed until another meeting could be held or all parties could make their X on the paper. WO Watchdog
02/21	To all that are interested in the Captains/ Engineers/ and AFEO's possible downgrade issue, please don't rush to blame the Model 42 engine captains or folks in other regions. Their intent was not to have this problem develop but to get their positions better classified. It's the same process that we GS-8 captains had to undertake for our initial upgrade, with the exception that we had support from the R-5 Regional Office. Probably one of the most significant classification appeals, as it is related to our current problems, stems from a valid complaint from R-3. You can view a copy of this complaint at www.opm.gov and go to "classification appeals". The appeal number is C-0462-06-01. Its under GS-0400 Biological Sciences and then GS-0462. We are all working hard to remedy this classification problem and it hopefully will be settled soon. There are primarily three areas of concern and each of those areas has been reviewed time and again and the classification was certified on 04/21/1997 by an assistant director at the WO. After this next week, the positions will be reviewed and a final ruling issued by classifiers of the WO and OPM. Hopefully that ruling will be in our favor. **SoCal-Capt.** Thanks for the info, **SoCal-Capt.**. I simplified things. This is where the status of the appeal is located, the first one under General Biological Sciences (C-0462-06-01):www.opm.gov/classapp/decision/table.htm#0400" Right now there is "no change". and here is the link to the pdf decision file itself: www.opm.gov/classapp/decision/1998/04620601.pdf Ab.
02/21	In response to a previous message: The major Union in the FS is the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE) which is affliated with the International Assoication of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM&AW). There are nearly 100 NFFE Locals in the FS. (There are also one or two AFGE FS Locals). The NFFE Locals form a "consolidated bargaining unit" which is governed by the Forest Service Council. The FSC negotiates with the FS on Service-wide issues. The FSC has Regional Vice Presidents as well as VPs for Research and the Job Corps. These VPs negotiate and address issues within their corresponding administrative units (Region, R&D, JC ). Locals are autonomous and deal with issues at the level of their administration (eg., Forest, Station, JC Center). Through elections, NFFE has obtained the status of exclusive representative, which means that legally only NFFE can represent the bargaining unit. To find out if your unit is covered by NFFE, log on to the FS IBM system and go to the WO Human Resources intranet site at http://fsweb.wo.fs.fed/hrm/. Click on "Labor Relations"; then click on "Master Agreement August 22, 2000"; then click on "Master Agreement Between the Forest Service and NFFE"; and, finally, click on "Appendix A NFFE Consolidated Units". Once there, you can look at each Region and you'll be able to see if your Forest or unit is in the BU. An easy alternative is to ask your coworkers or your Personnel Office. If you are not "Unionized," you have no formal or effective way to be heard on many workplace issues. If you want a voice, contact Mike Bunten (mbunten@fs.fed.us; 530 926 9626) Sec/Treas, FSC, for more information about the Union. The matter of not exactly knowing the number of FS employees is explained in that FS management actually determines (by applying legal tests) who is in the BU. While each Local can ask for a list of BU employees, the FSC has not kept a running total. One reason is that the total number of represented employees (whether it be 12,000 or 14,000) has no bearing on labor-management issues. Also, the total is very much a moving target, as it changes every day when employees enter and leave the FS workforce. While it was stated in the earlier message that the FS has 40,000 employees, that is also a guess (and it seems quite high). Generally the FS does not talk about the number of its employees, but at the end of each fiscal year it calculates the number of "FTEs" used (FTE = Full Time Equivalent). It is true that the FSC does not know how many firefighters it represents in the FS. It is also true that the Council does not know how many secretaries, foresters, chemical engineers, editors, carpenters, electricians, law enforcement officers, technologists, receptionists, computer specialists, laborers, statisticians, biologists, etc., that it represents either. The Council has never needed to quantify employees by occupation to fulfill its responsibilities. The Union represents all employees in the bargaining unit, PERIOD. NFFE is very much a bottom up organization - the members call the shots. Elected officers serve at the pleasure of the membership and can be reomved or not re-elected. NFFE members care enough about the Forest Service and its mission to be actively involved in shaping workplace decisions through their elected Union representatives. I invite all non-member FS employees to join us to working with Forest Service management to improve workng conditions and to improve our Agency. - John R. Obst, President, NFFE Forest Service Council. Thank you for the clarifications. Ab (but not the original!) The original Ab echoes the thanks for clarification but adds: What are you DOING FOR THE ENGINE CAPTAINS and those below them in R5??? Ab.
02/21	With regard to tahoe teds remark- "I think everone that applied under the National Fire Plan should file a class action and injunction to halt all hiring under this plan as it is discriminatory based on the fact that the nature of the selection process was not even know by Boise (evidently) at the time of initial closing." Please ted don't screw up a screwed up thing any further than it is or we will never hire anyone PERIOD. We have been looking this gift horse in the mouth until it hurts. I say feel greatful that you at least have a shot at what many people never had the opportunity to even try. Here's a hiring tip that you can bank on in the future. IF A CAREER IS WORTH HAVING- IT'S WORTH APPLYING FOR WITH A NEAT HARD COPY- SUBMITTED ON THE FIRST OPEN DAY OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT, WITH PLENTY OF TIME FOR CONFIRMATION AND FOLLOW UP WITH PERSONNEL. With regard to GP's comments on training and promotion- you are right on. This is a rebuilding time for the wildland firefighting profession as a whole. If we don't hire and create the future of our profession, we are HISTORY as a profession. D-Torch President of the W.D.N.N.B.F.W.P.O.P.T Society (We Don't Need No Bar Fly Winos Puking in Our Pumpkin Tanks) Society.
02/21	Ab, et all- Well yer Pup is pleased to report that he and Mellie have updated your acronyms with newfound wisdom? There are some new links there also. Slowly but surely the Pup is getting trained in FF1 certifications.. stilla while until the local county Firefighter Academy, but I think I'm making good progress.. Turnout/Bunker gear and SCBA's are fun.. but theres something just a bit more appreciable in the yellow and green Nomex of wildland fire.. Here's hoping for a safe season for all.. I might get to join ya next year, provided I can worm my way into the S-courses somewhere. Take care all. As Ever, Tiny, the R-6 Fire Pup Thanks TinyPup for your unflagging service (and I like the way yer practic'in up on referr'in to yerself in the 3'hird person.) Ab.
02/20	Jobs page, 462 and 455 series are updated. I've added photos to Engine2 Page, Handcrew3 Page and Logo3 Page. These are pictures of BC Davis NJ pine barrens brush truck, that he left behind when he moved to Nevada. Also put up a retardant drop photo on the Kirk Fire '99 and the non-pc sticker that used to sometimes be awarded after completion of FF1. Thanks contributors. Ab.
02/20	The Grand Canyon National Park is offering a helicopter academy. Follow the link for more information. It is a great opportunity for folks to get quality hands on training. www.ihogman.com/GRCA/ Jim
02/20	The existing Engine Captain GS-8 upgrade is not supported by the "union" (for a lack of better word) because those who are in the union are not able to receive this upgrade...either because they are management...Capt or better or they are in other functions/positions (patrol, fuel)... As I understand it, in CA in 1996, the upgrade was based on span of control.... a type 4/6 engine does not have the span of control as does a Capt on a type 3. Captains on type 3 engines were given upgrades along with folks down the chain of command to reflect that they supervise 6 personnel. Type 3 engines in CA are 7 day modules with 5 people on per day.... I have always thought that other region personnel should get the same increase as they do the same work, but often with less crew.... I am not sure where this controversy started, but unless it came from a type 4 engine capt as was mentioned in another post, I doubt it came from a R5 Capt. Chances are it may have come from another region... Also as I understand it, Big Brother will only be able to take the grade away. Future Captains may not get it... but those who have will keep, if only in increased steps.... their wages will be protected. Also I would like to know, were only Very Qualified individuals contacted by forests when checking on interest? If this is so, why were we only contacted by certain forests and not by others. Where were these ratings done? If it is true we must reapply for round 2, why is it called round 2 and why was nobody told of this before? I think everone that applied under the National Fire Plan should file a class action and injunction to halt all hiring under this plan as it is discriminatory based on the fact that the nature of the selection process was not even know by Boise (evidently) at the time of initial closing. One final note....the JAC program....does it entail having a valid driver's lic.? tahoe ted
02/19	Mellie, Well, I suppose you can hear alot of folks snickerin at ya (all in good fun of course) but...FUBAR is an old military slang for "blankity blank beyond all recognition". Certainly you did not catch the movie Saving Private Ryan as it was one of the topics in that movie. ...and alex? ..thats alex trebeck (?spelling) of the game show jeopardy fame...guess youve missed that too:) All in good fun of course, Im greatfull for your interest, concern and motivation on the behalf of the wildland fire community! Pulaski Yes, Mellie got a lot of mail on that one. I cut and pasted the responses and forwarded them on to her. Ab.
02/19	SOUTHERN AREA: Fire activity is picking up in Florida due to a lack of precipitation, the KBDI values are between 500-700 through most of the state. Due to the fire activity in Florida, SACC is in the process of activating Tanker-12 and plans on placing it at the Ocala Tanker Base in Florida. No precipitation is expected across the South today. The next chance of rain through the South will be on Thursday. High temperatures today will range from the upper 50’s in Tulsa, Oklahoma to the high 70’s in southern Florida. We can expect that the high temperatures in the South will be 3-10 degrees warmer tomorrow. The cold weather will return on Thursday were the highs will be in the 40’s and 50’s for most of the South. The State of Florida, State Emergency Operations Center web page has reports on the current fire and drought situation as well as information on burning restrictions, weather and road conditions: www.dca.state.fl.us/eoc/ . As of February 9, 2001 the Regional Forester for the Southern Region (Region 8) of the Forest Service has temporarily suspended the work capacity test for all firefighters. Arkansas is looking for miscellaneous timber positions to assist with a large-scale salvage sale due to a devastating ice storm that moved through the area. Please view SACC resource request list for open positions: www.r8web.com/sacc/resourcerequest.htm SACC will be staffed from 0700 to 1900 hours seven days a week. For fire weather information for your area, check out: www.boi.noaa.gov/firewx.htm Jim
02/19	Thanks Kelly... What do you mean when you say you'll "take bureaucratic BS for a thousand"? I know the BS part, but who is Alex (a union guy?) and why for a thousand? Yeah, and while I'm at it, I don't know what FUBAR (post on 2/16) and PSE (Permanent Seasonal Employment? post on 2/18) stand for either. Mellie
02/19	"Re the engine captain pay controversy: I heard that some "union guy" (I'm not including his name) on the Shasta T started all the stuff that got the WO- HR people riled up. Like did he threaten a suit or something?" Mellie, if you can successfully chase & capture the paper @ the end of the trail on this subject, it might make for some very interesting reading! Keep us posted as to any results. Da
02/19	... Mellie surely gets the award for best question-asker in the fire community. [grin] I'm sure there are others more knowledgeable than I out there, but I'll take a stab at a few of the union questions. -- What is the "USFS union"? That would be the Forest Service Council, one of several councils under the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, also known as the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE). -- Do they actually represent firefighters? I asked the president of the council the other day how many people who work in fire are actually in the union and he didn't know. -- Does everyone in the FS "have to" be in it? Nope. Of the approximately 40,000 USFS employees, something like 10,000 are in the union. But they have an agreement that says that they can speak for all the employees. -- How many fire people are in this "union"? I don't know. The president doesn't know, either. Check the OPM listings for ff jobs for the statement "no bargaining unit status." Mary Lynn Waite, who died recently in Mississippi taking the walk test, was not in a bargaining unit. -- Does the union speak for you whether you belong to it or not? yup. -- Can you say you don't want them to speak for you? There's an interesting concept. I wonder how many firefighters were wanting the pack test suspended when the union asked for it. -- Re the engine captain pay controversy: The "union guys" I've spoken with do not support the existing GS-8 upgrade in R5. -- If the "union" does not represent many fire folk but they do speak for fire folk with *HUGE* consequences, whatsup with that?!! I'll take bureaucratic BS for a thousand, Alex. kelly.
02/19	TO: JA Yes you only get one offer. Take it, your name is removed from the application process wether you do or not. You will need to reapply for round two also. On a CDL, it all depends on what type of engine you are on, some engines do not require them, but if they do you probably will. Hope this helped. WL

02/19	Can someone clairfy somethings for me? What is the "USFS union"? I know they're not the FWFSA. I don't even know their acronym. I've heard from local ff that the "USFS union" doesn't really do anything for issues relating to fire folk. Do they actually represent firefighters? Does everyone in the FS "have to" be in it? Like are there automatic deductions from your paycheck made to it, as teachers must do? How many fire people are in this "union"? or what % of fed ff? Does the union speak for you whether you belong to it or not? Can you say you don't want them to speak for you? Can you say you don't like what they're saying? (i.e., can you tell them to shut up?) How are they related to HR? Re the engine captain pay controversy: I heard that some "union guy" (I'm not including his name) on the Shasta T started all the stuff that got the WO- HR people riled up. Like did he threaten a suit or something? I guess I don't know what is fact and what is just rumor beyond a certain point. I haven't been able to research this because of the holiday. If the "union" does not represent many fire folk but they do speak for fire folk with *HUGE* consequences, whatsup with that?!!! Please give me some starting info so I can research this further this week. Thanks, Mellie, who thinks people should join FWFSA (link is the logo above) which I know *does represent* firefighters' interests and with an awesome persistence!
02/19	Ab - can you put this out on "They Said"?? We'd really like to get lots of well-grounded fire folks to talk and show their stuff at the Safety Summit. This is NOT a "research-type" conference!! Dick Mangan --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Call for Papers 5th International Fire Safety Summit Missoula, Montana November 6-8, 2001 The 5th International Fire Safety Summit will be held in Missoula, Montana on November 6-8, 2001. The main focus of this safety summit will be to consolidate issues and concerns raised at previous summits, and develop actions to resolve them. We are seeking the submission of papers and posters focused on the following topic areas: Staying Safe on the Fireline (LCES, Fire Shelters, Avoidance, etc); Safety in the Interface for Homeowners and Firefighters; Health and Fitness in the Firefighter workforce; Making a Safer Firefighter (training, lessons learned, human factors). To submit a contributed paper, send a 1-page abstract including the author(s), affiliation(s), title and body of the abstract to Program Chair Dick Mangan at 11400 Kona Ranch Road, Missoula MT 59804; or by Email to: blackbull@bigsky.net. Abstracts are due not later than May 1, 2001; final papers are due NLT September 1, 2001. The Conference Proceedings will be available on CD-rom format at the Safety Summit. For further information, contact Dick Mangan @ 406-543-0013 or blackbull@bigsky.net. Hey Readers, it's good to plan ahead. The WISDOM needs to be shared. Ab.
02/19	For T2crew: Yes, the USFS union did request a pack test moratorium. The chief said no. k-bob.
02/18	JA, If you look at that Mel Madness hiring schedule from AL a few posts back, you'll see that the last offers of Round 1 were made on Friday or possibly Saturday and that final decisions are confirmed on Tues. So there should be no more offers for Round 1 unless something has changed. JD
02/18	Greg Eiden, Go to Firewise I think you will find all the information you need. WP
02/18	Greg: re protecting homes from wildfire. Visit www.firewise.org ..more specificly go to www.firewise.org/pubs/fwl/ovw_frames.html for a direct link to the firewise landscaping page. Another item you can look for at the firewise is the "Firewise Communities" page (www.firewise.org/communities/) These are worshops that are being put on around the country. I was able to attend one last fall, very worth while. There are a few left scheduled for this year. Pulaski
02/18	So I heard today that there's a moratorium coming on the pack test because of the death in Mississippi (someone taking the light duty test)? What's up with this? Didn't we go through this about 3 yrs ago? Is it me or is it dejavu? I thought this was settled. If the feds do another moratorium, how's that affect state ff's? T2crew The woman who died wasn't even doing the pack test. She was walking. From post about Feb 8 Miss. death press release Ab.
02/18	I got the application and hiring timeline from a friend and decided I'd share. Here are the Timelines for 3 different groups of hires: the MEL PERMANENT POSITIONS, the MEL TEMPORARY POSITIONS and the FMO/AFMO/CONTRACTING,etc POSITIONS. Note that the Round 1 permanent positions are decided by this Tues 2/21, at the same time the two other categories of positions are being reviewed or qual'd and panelled. I guess I didn't appreciate the complexity of this multiple-stage process that I see when I look at this tentative schedule. For the second and third rounds of hiring, does anyone know whether OPM or aview or someone else is handling the applications, whether the scanable forms are restocked and whether applying online is reliable? or should we go the hardcopy route (which doesn't help if a database failure bumps out a lot of quality people like happened ROUND1 for perm MEL postitions). Also, do we need to resubmit or do applications go back into a pool? AL
02/18	I have until Tuesday to reply to an offer for a Senior FF position. Have all of the regions made their Round 1 offers by now? Is it best to accept this offer, though probably my last choice, or is there still a chance that offers may still come from other regions? If I should turn this offer down, will my name be removed from the list for further onsideration? Also, is a Senior FF on a Type III engine required to obtain a CDL? JA
02/18	Hi, My name is Greg Eiden and I'm working on a book called "NW Basic Training." It contains all kinds of useful information for Northwesterners. I was wondering if you could tell me what the 5 or 6 keys to protecting your woodland or prairie home from wildfire might be. For example, keep the brush and dead grass clear around the perimeter of your home. Since we get quite a few lightning strike fires here, particularly in our high desert country, my readers would love this kind of information. Thanks, Greg
02/18	It's no wonder that Florida is burning. Look at this! Keetch Byram Drought Index Map IN THE NEWS: Fire in Florida. CNN - Fire threat CNN - Fire today It's not just Fire and it's not just the Forest Service with troubled personnel systems. Washington Post Fire crews face pay cutback. Record Searchlight (Redding.com) Firescribe
02/18	In regards to the mass hiring to fill positions for the NFP, we need to be patient and prepared to begin a two-to-five year intense training and employee development project to bring the DEMO candidates up to successful performance standards. I truely hope all supervisors and program managers realize the immense task that awaits us. Employee development needs to be a priority to invest in the future to ensure a qualified and SAFE workforce is ready to FFABPFSF. (see fire order #1 (of the 10)). I heard, through a very reliable source of two fine examples. An employee, with 5 part time seasons of experience on an engine module with a relatively low IA workload, has been offered a GS-7 full time handcrew leader position. YIKES!! Example #2, a DEMO candidate with a 4 year degree and ZIPPO fire experience is offered a GS-5 senior FF position. YIKES AGAIN!! That's the current system, so, we need to treat the problem as a training and development issue and do our very best to ensure we all adhere to qualification standards and don't promote new employees until they are FULLY qualified. GP
02/18	With all the excitment about the new positions (I'm convinced I'll get offered a PSE when I'm 95 years old....also, on a similar note - if anyone needs info on private health insurance policies and retirement programs, let me know. State Farm looks pretty good, it only costs about $1,000,000 a month for coverage.) Anyway, I'm curious as to if anyone has some excellent off-season workout/fitness programs that they have tried in the past. I am currently in the middle of a program, but it feels like a dramatic deviation from what I normally do and am concerned with what I'm going to end up with at the end. Just wondering if anyone has or knows of some killer programs. sec
02/17	Thanks for the PowerPoint training. I had to teach 130 last month and I downloaded the PP and looked & felt like a real pro giving the class with this kind of help!!! Thanks to all involved!!!!! MG Thanks to Pulaski and Hickman and some others for making the powerpoint programs available (programs page). They are slick! Ab.
02/17	I have read many responses in regards to the R5 possible downgrading from the GS-8 on down. I was at first concerned, seeing that I am a GS-7 trying for a GS-8 Engine Captain. But, after looking at all angles, I cannot phantom the thought of this ever happening. OPM would be opening themselves to the LARGEST grievance in history. Every R5 Captain, FEO, AFEO and Senior Firefighter would be involved. Just the cost factor on OPM would be tremedous in the end result. I do not forget however, that I work for the government (I'm here to help), so if this did happen, our wages would be protected, giving us time to gain ammunition. This is why we all need to be involved with FWFSA, we are seeking Pay Fairness, not going backwards!! R5FEO Ab sez, click the link and join up!
02/17	Many of you may have gotten this website www.concentric.net/~R5mc/, the Male Class Website through the mail system. It stirred up some controversy obviously. I have to admit, when I first opened up the site I too thought it was for White Males Only. But after reading into it, realized it had alot of facts non-related to gender but to firefighters. One example showed how a High School drop out could get a job that would pay the same annual salary of a GS-7, Scary! I am amazed at how many folks assumed and even found this site offensive, based on its name. Yet, if it was a different gender name it would have been accepted, probably even by the agency. Is Free Speech only for selected groups, and Hush Hush for others, even when fact based? One of the Hush Hush!!
02/17	I applied for Jobs this year through both the BLM and USFS. I have to admit that BLM has their act together as far as online apps. go. It was very user friendly on the BLM side. The Forest service online application was a lot more complicated than it needed to be. One difference may be that the Circus incorporates OPM (Other Peoples Money) into the process. These agencies need to work together for the common good. Do the troops count for anything anymore? As far as the private sector looking good right now, I disagree. The job situation the private sector gets bleaker every day. A government job is looking better and better. -Earl-
02/16	Jobs page, Series 462 and 455 are updated. Ab.
02/16	I received a call from a forest in R2 considering me for a perm engine assistant. They said they have contacted R6 where another forest was also wanted me. They left the decision up to me. With all my experience in R6 and never been to the other forest I chose R6. It has been three days ago and still no call. I am about to give up with circus and go back to school if this CF is going to go on the rest of my career. WL PS. Whites boots are wonderful to my feet, but I have to rebuild after each fire season. I haven't tried another boot yet. Goggles fogging up? There is no way around, go to bugeyes.
02/16	Ab, After reading the comments on applications, hiring, downgrades, etc. for the last few weeks, the private sector looks mighty inviting! Stu
02/16	This is in regard to the down grades that are being discussed. I am an employee of the BLM in Region 5 and from what information we are receiving we are also looking at the same fate as the Forest Service captains. We understand that the reason this was brought about was some other regions outside California are complaining about the upgrades in Region 5, because no other region has followed suit. What people don't understand it has to do with amount of personnel supervised and 7 day staffing, plus the fact that Region 5 fire program doesn't shut down during the winter. Engine Captains for both the F.S. and BLM have a lot more duties other than fire suppression, but not to say that we all don't deserve to get paid more, because we all no that the Federal wildland firefighter is way under paid. Good thing we love the job! Cap3133 Yeah, I venture to say that this will end up being a HUGE issue, if not resolved immediately. The downgrade of engine captain will affect grades of engine positions below it, at least 3 or 4 GS levels, and will not be confined to the Forest Service. Just think about it. What if every administration that came into power reinterpreted the rules? Having the three branches of government (legislative, presidential, judicial) puts checks and balances on that happening in our country. But within government, what is the process to prevent arbitrary reinterpretations, especially when we cannot speak publically to the issue without it being considered lobbying? The public is already involved and that will grow. I predict that soon what will happen here is that someone will get the judicial/legislative branches involved. I see the steps leading to that... One friend asked the other day if I had any contacts with a Washington Post writer or anyone else who would lay out the issues and consequences of HR's action. I don't, but others in our fire circle do. Wouldn't be surprised if an insightful journalist hops on this story soon. Just look at this situation for PUBLIC INTEREST appeal. Fires of the summer, Congress doing the right thing in funding at MEL, some peon in Forest Service HR making an arbitrary decision that fouls up a hiring process that would let us better protect against a repeat of fires next summer. His bosses continuing the course of action. (Why? Politics, defending their hiring turf, "to hell with R5", "to hell with the Forest Service fire folks"?) A look at the widening effects across positions, across regions and across agencies throughout the entire US of A. Unfairness to the mainstay of the "fire troops of summer". Yep, a lot here if HR continues the threat/actuality of the downgrade. I could go on and on. See my comments and letter to my Congressional Representatives and Mellie's comments. Readers, it takes very little time to make a difference, even if you just e-mail your rep and say, "This is wrong!" Right now NO ENGINE CAPTAINS OR ANY OTHER PERSONS ON ENGINES ARE BEING HIRED. As you know, aside from helitack, this group of hires is OUR GREATEST NEED. Ab.
02/16	As far as trying to get on AVUEDIGITALSERVICES.COM tonight... seems like every page (if you finally get connected) gives you the message.... Error 500 - Internal Server Error from RFC 2068 Hypertext Transfer Protocol -- HTTP/1.1: 10.5.1 500 Internal Server Error The server encountered an unexpected condition which prevented it from the request. Seems the solution as provided by ASAP for the lack of the "bubble scanable forms" has been a flop.. If you haven't been able to apply through the processes on the application, please send an e-mail to fsjobs@fs.fed.us and let them know that their system isn't working... I have sent a few messages and only get auto mail replies... Those auto mail replies will be of great help with my grievance and hopefully yours if you dont get your application in on time.... there is a big problem here and the FS needs to hold up the hiring on the FMO and AFMO jobs until there is a good system in place.....I have worked for the FS for 18 years and can honestly say I havent seen a hiring process more flawed... the e-mail letter I received even states that there is a problem but states they will carry on with the process.... my attorney loves it... Chaparral Skeleton

2/16	What is going on in region 5? I hear that all GS-5 and up positions are being held up due to the 7/8 question. I also hear that since this is being held up they are going to lump togehter those of us who were on the ball enough to get our apps in on time with those of round 2. Nice to be rewarded for actually doing something right and on time. guess that is whats wrong....some of us are just too good maybe. Why doesn't mgmt see that this whole system is FUBAR and go back to individual or small group announcements.....then at leat you know you get applicants that are interested in working at your module or at least forest..... Also if things are par for the course.....alot of the applicants that don't have prior agency experience were lied to like a recruiter lies to a 17 year old high school kid. I know of one Capt. who flat out lied as to the activity and description of his station to a new out of state firefighter. This individual bailed mid season because of it. lets get in gear here folks..... tahoe ted
02/16	I heard a silly little rumor the other day. The BLM may just forget this whole hiring thing, because they think that the funding will be mostly dried up by next year. Evidently ol GW liked it better in the old days when anyone who ever dreamed of a career as a wildland firefighter were told to try the Army instead. That light at the end of the tunnel that we have waited for could be a train after all. Enjoy the wreck. Old Dude Who Still Remembers
02/16	Just to clarify, avuedigitalservices.com is not a Forest Service internal enterprise. Avue Technology is a high tech firm in Tacoma, WA. I know because my brother-in-law works for them. They produce software for employers. I checked out the avuedigitalservices.com website when I saw it on theysaid, and it is a part of Avue Tech. I don't know their deal with the FS, but it is a private company. Tim
02/16	Problem with Fogging Goggles: Ab and all: I recently purchased 5500 UFO Galaxis goggles made by Bouton for my entire crew. We all love the style, feel and functionality of the goggles but are now running into a problem since the temperatures are getting colder outside and they sit close to your face - FOGGING UP! I talked to a couple of friends who are underwater welders and each one had a personal preference for antifog spray. They suggested: KleerVu, Fog (by Onyx medical supply), and Z'Fogless. I was wondering if anyone out there has a favorite they use or can strongly suggest one of the above listed products. I've tried "over the counter" remedies and store brands but none seem to work! Any help ya'll can give me is greatly appreciated! Thanks! Anvil
02/16	To Hardcopy Hal and others: The remedy to follow regarding submitting your application hardcopy would be great. The problem once again lies in the Forest Service didn't have enough scannable forms available. I received an e-mail today 2/15 from ASAP telling me to apply on-line since the scannable forms weren't available. I requested forms over 3 weeks ago. They did say that if you dont want to use AVUE then you can submit a hardcopy by Feb 16 and submit the scannable form by February 26 (I think that was the date) to still be considered. Now how can I apply on-line if it isnt working and how can I apply with the scannable form if its not available. The only other way is the "old fashioned way" by filling out the resume and then addressing each KSA individually. Looks like lots of problems are going to be coming down the pike. Desert Phoenix
02/16	What I know about FS round one hiring, and answers to some of the questions and frustrations. Your right the system does suck. Or at least sometimes for some people. Some of my peers I have been talking to seem to think the system is working well. I have mixed feelings. It seems to be working well for the bases that are just hiring their own or moving people up within their own ranks. For me that is not the case and it has been somewhat frustrating. I am very sure that I may be passing over some very good applicants. The problem is, the process that usually takes us a month or more to review applications and check past supervisors and references, was compressed into just a few days. We just did not have time to look at all the applications, much less check up on them. I had eight pages of names for just the GS 6 and GS 5 positions available on my crew. If you were not calling us before hand, expressing your interest level, or sending a copy of your application for us to look at beforehand we just did not have the time to consider you. If you have not recieved a call about your interest from a forest you selected, you can assume they are not considering you. The final list is pretty much done and offers began today (tue). It took most of the day to make all the GS 9 and GS 8 offers. Offers for the GS 7 level began in the late afternoon. I would expect that the GS 7 and GS 6 offers get done tomorrow. The list for GS 6's and GS 5's is very long and may take awhile. You will have 3 days to consider an offer. As others have said, be carefull about turning down an offer. You can't count on round two, there is a good chance the the position you really want will already be filled. I think a better strategy would be to accept, you can still submit another application and reapply for round two. Keep in mind that there will not be as many jobs available in round two, mostly just the positions that forests did not get the request in on time for round one and the positions that became vacant due to round one. The rules we are going by right now were developed by personnel with the input and blessing from the Union. If you do not like the results I am not sure what recourse, if any, an applicant may have. Contrary to a few posts, I am not aware of any decisions that have been made based on financial considerations. Mostly it has been based on which forest needed an applicant the most or, more often, who has already made a substantial investment in the applicant's developement and training. The good news is that everybody realizes that the current system and rules are not perfect. ASAP office has been hammered and has not always been able to provide the level of service that they would like to, especially for the applicants. Some of the ideal that are being kicked around: Letting us still hire and make offers from the round one list until the round two list is out. Maybe even letting this happen at the local level. Also possibly hiring for round two at the local level. This does open the possibility of multiple offers, since job offers would not be coordinated between forests or regions. These are just a few of the ideal I know are being talked about. WG. The information you got from personnel does not seem totally right. Avuedigitalservices.com was contracted by the Forest Service for the automated hiring process but only for certain jobs. They are doing the automated applications for the FMO and AFMO postions and certain non-fire postions. The automated applications for the GS 9 through 3 positions should have been through the OPM site. Talon. If you were not contacted about the GS 7 position it could mean one of a few things; there was a problem with the system and your name did not show up on their list (though unlikey because you showed up on another one), you did not show up in the quality group and they could not reach you, that forest may have been a little slow or behind the other forest and already put you on their tenative selection list which would have removed you name from consideration on other list in the region. Though I would have thought that if you were very up front with them about your perferences they would have let you go. Anyway I wish you good luck. A word of caution about those interested in helicopter positions in region 5. I have heard rumers from an HOS in another region that R5 is having funding problems with helicopter contracts. Because of some unforseen circumstances in the insurance industry, the cost of contracts has increased dramatically. In some instances $500 - $600 per day for a type 3 helicopter. Some of the cost I have seen for these has been around $2700 per day, in most cases we were planning about $2000 per day. My region has managed to come up with the funding for the increased cost. If your wondering why you are not getting calls form some of the forest you were counting on, that may be the reason. A few last words of advice. Try not to get too discouraged about all this hiring stuff. All these new jobs means more opportunities for all of us, even though they may not come now. Sorry for those of you pushing 35 that really need a job now. Hopefully the 37 year limit will become a reality. Many of you should have been on the quality list but were not. Please resubmit your application for round two and give yourself the credit on the KSA's that you really deserve. Name withheld to maintain Plausible Deniability
02/16	About the Department of Interior hiring freeze..... Secretary of the Interior Gail Norton said today (Feb. 15) in a satellite conference that she had lifted the DOI hiring freeze (at least partially). There were no details given, and there's been nothing distributed in writing yet to the agencies. An interested observer
02/15	Hey AB, This is for Barbara regarding gear,boots, for wildland firefighting. The rule is quality not quantity when putting together a red pack. Just remember you're the one who has to carry it!! As far as boots go ...I had Redwings which I trashed in Idaho/Montana. They were OK but didn't hold up. Since then and the lesson learned last summer I have faxed my feet to oregon and purchased a pair of White's which were built for me. Putting them on was somewhat of a religious experience..I have never had anything so comfortable on my feet! They are pricey but well worth it. When you have been on the line for 20plus hours let me assure you the price becomes relative!! Your feet are your livlihood in wildland firefighting so be kind to them and they will not let you down!! Boots are one of your most important investments and I have found the White's to be great. There are also other well made brands which are comprable so go to the web site of Drews Boots or Nicks boots to find the right one for you. Firebabe
02/15	Ab, In response to Barbara's question, I'll go on record as one who is very fond of White's Smokejumper boots. Some folks swear by 'em, some folks hate 'em, but mine have been through a lot and are holding up nicely. Also just want to echo Ab's appreciation of Mellie and her devotion to this page. Thanks, Mellie. Kibby
02/15	Chaparral Skeleton, NorCal Tom, WG, The FS sent out letters on Feb 5 (USDA FS letterhead, Washington Office signed by Steve Nelson, Director of Human Resources Management) asking people to apply online with avuedigitalservices.com, but the ASAP staffing people don't have records of all the applicants who ARE in the system with avuedigitalservices.com. Oops, disconnect! If the application is in avue's hands, it's supposed to be in the hands of FS Personnel and in the files of OPM... Not necessarily so... Skeleton, you said you thought this is an enterprise outfit. It's not. I'm sure the FS did a contract with a "professional firm" to do the applications for this most current category of hiring (FMO, AFMO, a few non-fire). (We don't have the computer expertise/personnel to do it ourselves. OPM has done the first MEL permanent hire applicants.) I did a little research. The group doing the online application for this FMO and AFMO group is a private company in Tacoma WA www.avuetech.com/. They have a *very large* list of fed clients. Maybe they've done ok by the others, but they've got a major problem with this. Those of you in this category of hire (FMO, AFMO, a few non-fire) who thought you were done with this application process, best reapply in hardcopy by tomorrow if you want in on Round 1. WG, I heard some of the GS-9 (on down) applications didn't get to forests because of a database glitch. That's an OPM problem (I think?) Those folks (MEL permanent hire category) who fell through the cracks even after they were on certif lists and were called are supposed to automatically go back into the hopper for Round 2. Hardcopy Hal (My current littany is "trust in computers, but send in the paper, then use the phone to check with God" and you can tell by my moniker wherein lies my greatest faith...) PS. By all reports, the BLM application process is a breeze.
02/15	I have heard from a few people that ASAP (Automated Staffing Application Program) has blown it bigtime. If you have sent in an electronic application on Avuedigital.com for a FS job that requires a postmark deadline of tomorrow, take the time right now and redo your application in hard copy and mail it in to meet tomorrow's deadline! Do not take a chance on this!!!! NorCal Tom
02/15	Dear Ab, please post my following to the person who talked about the AVUEDIGITAL SERVICES.COM and the Forest Service Hiring. If someone at A.S.A.P. told you that 'Avue' was a private company they may be right and they may be wrong. Even though they told you that that Avue was not FS and there was nothing they could do about your application being missing, CALL THEM ON IT. IF THE FS UTILIZES A SERVICE TO PROVIDE AN APPLICATION PROCESS THEN IT IS THEIR PROCESS. If the FS does not acknowledge your concern and says that it's not their problem, they are wrong. If the Forest Service advertises a service (a first that I know of) in a VACANCY ANNOUNCEMENT to provide an application to them, that service is a party to wit with them. As such, they have accepted responsibility for that party to provide properly completed applications. I recommend an immediate call back to ASAP and a name taken for future reference. You have grounds for both an internal appeal/grievance and a Merit Systems Protection Board Appeal. Now my personal opinion, even though I don't know its true, I believe Avue Digital Services is a Forest Service internal enterprise (an internal business within the Forest Service for streamlining and profit). FS internal enterprises have existed for a few years and looking at the quality of the site (its poor quality , poor reliability, and lack of true service to those who would like to call them for info) makes me believe that they are Govt. sponsored. I have tried for the last 8 hours to submit an application and am giving up. I cant believe that my agency has gone with such a screwed up product. Anyone else who has used this application process, please speak up. So far, we are two application processes in a row that are a flop... how many more!!!! Desert Phoneix

02/15	Hey how is everyone? I am looking for some information about getting on the contract list for Engines. I am interested in building a type 6 Engine within the next few years and I am starting to get info on everything I need to do to get on the federal list. I would be grateful for any help. Keep enjoying the down time fire season is coming soon. ECS
02/15	I am truely in a state of shock....the FS is making Apprentice offers to folks that have 5 and more seasons in as temps in the GS-5 and GS-6 level....many of these folks already have the training for single resource boss but have not been placed on the training assignment rotation due to their temp status.. Someone please tell me the logic in spending good money to retrain people and reduce them in grade and responsability....when Mgmt is crying about not having qualified people at higher levels. Tahoe ted
02/15	REMINDER: The timeline for Round 1, FMO, AFMO, Contracting, etc Permanent Positions (non-MEL) is this: applications must be postmarked by Feb 16, tomorrow, the regions will coordinate selections beginning March 12 and offers will be made no later than March 20. One who doesn't want well qualified people to miss out.
02/15	This Dept of the Interior hiring freeze is getting old. Does anybody know when they are going to get an exemption to start filling fire positions? Also, to my brothers and sisters in the Forest Service....What idiot would even THINK UP the lame idea to bump Engine Captains from 8's to 7's? People in DC are so out of touch with what goes on in the REAL WORLD! Whats next, bumping shot sups back to 7's? Sorry to vent but just had to get that off my chest. I hope everybody is typing their fingers to the bone to keep this INJUSTICE from happening. Sign Me, Fired Up
02/15	Greetings from the East. Been having some small fires back here in VA, not very big but enough to keep you on your toes. Anyway, I've been listing to the talk about jobs and the diffrent rounds of hiring and passing over people because they turn down a job. I have applied for jobs with the BLM and FS. I know that they are separate agencies but if I turn a job down with the BLM because I can't get out of college till May will my applications be passed over too?? Will I be demoted till the next round in hiring?? What kind of guidelines is the BLM using in it's hiring process?? Thanks for providing this forum AB. Just by reading over the archives I can get anwsers to questions that I would never have thought to ask untill it was too late and had to learn the hard way. Keep up the good work. Oh yeah, in response as to what to carry in a pack, try a small package of babywipes. They are a great Multi-Purpose cleaner :) Matt
02/14	Greetings, Thanks to Shooter and JW for you input on the Station wear issue. Still working on our uniform issue, and any input was welcome. Just curious, does anyone have any contacts with GSA? I heard a rumor that they were considering buying blue nomex and I would like to squelch it. To Uncle Bob, Here in Nevada, NDF (Nevada Division of Forestry, for those like me who like to abbreviate) we hire seasonal FF's, and will start to accept applications in late March to early April. Just go to www.state.nv.us and go to the personnel department page and look up the job listings. You should find the announcement and a downloadable job application with the address to send it to. Thanks all, and stay safe...... Al If you go to NV state url above, you can't use your back button! Here's