"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
MARCH 2001

DATE	SUBJECT (Previous Archive: Feb-01) Return to Archives Page
03/31	Hey Ab: I just got a call from a USFS rep. regarding availability for a "fuels" job that I applied for during the second round and they mentioned that they are going through the cert. list as we speak. This led to couple of questions that you (or Mel) and the crew might be able to help me on: 1) should I expect an interview call sometime in the near future and is there an interview with this whole process? 2) any pointers in preparing for a "fuels planner / specialist" position interview, if there is one? Any assistance you can give is greatly appreciate. Thanks for all the hard work and dedication!! Anvil Readers, I know some of you are involved in the hiring process. Can you answer Anvil's question? Mellie do you know? Ab.
03/31	Jobs page, Series 462 and 455 are updated. Ab.
03/31	MERT you're a little late this season. R6 inspections are between the 12-and 20th of april. If you want to pursue it. Contact Carol Ford, she is the R6 Contract administrator for WA and OR. Her # is 503 808 2378. She is in the Portland USFS office. Ask her for a copy of the Engine Tender RFQ (Request for Quotation) Or Byron Brown for Region 4/2 That will get you the list of contract specs., engine inventory lists, performance standards, training standards, engine inspection sheets, and lists of contacts around the region to get inspected. The pre season inspections can be grueling. If you have straight gear, and it is in order then there is no problem, things go smooth. (R6 has the toughest inspections I have been too - and I contract in R6 - R4 - R2 - and R3) They all requre the same amount of insurance - 1 million liability w/ 2 million aggregate. You need 2 policies. One to cover the driving end of the business, and one to protect you professionally. ( you drop a pulaski on someones dome, or cut someone up with a saw, that kind of insurance.) Insurance is Mandatory with 3 seperate agencies named additionally insured. Without proof of coverage by June 1 in R6, they will not issue a preseason agreement - no if's or but's. Typical costs are between 1 and 3k per season per truck. Depending on how much extra insurance you get (comp -uninsured - med pay, etc) Experience also plays a factor in some underwriter's rates. Inventory is pretty straight forward. email me and ill fax you the list of "Minimum Engine Inventory." For a type 4-5-6 engine it will cost about 10-12K without the pump and to equip it with new stuff. Slightly less if you can find decent used gear. Forming your own dept is possible but costly. In WA ( my friend researched this), you have to find an unincorporated part of a county without county fire protection. Get enough locals on board and incorporate it. From there you would work with the County Fire Commisioner to figure out your suppression and aid coverage needs, and figure out where you are going to get the $ to do it. I hear its not impossible, I am sure I'm forgetting lots of steps in there. After your inspected, have the insurance, the people, the inventory, signed up with no paperwork errors, you wait for it to burn. Then hope they need you. You may wonder why some contractors like Aztec, Aces High, North Tree, Wildland Services, Ruby MTN, Pacific Wildfire (me), and a slew of others work lots. Its because we have been doing this long enough to have the contacts that know us, and havent burned bridges like some others. Some contractors chase fires - they will work, but not for long, and get black balled. I doubt there is a formal list as thats probably illegal. With teams put together from all over the country, it does not take long for word to get out about a crew - be it fed, state, or contract. thats the list I am not trying to discourage you. But every year i see guys buy and build trucks in March then have to sell them in Oct. Do it right, from the beginning and it will be rewarding. Throw something together and you'll have problems from the get go. I am by no means an expert at this. There are companies out there making way more than I ever will. I do make a good living, but had to learn the hard way. I jumped in it, and was lucky enough to get a great season my first year (94) as a contractor. 95 was slow, 96 was great, 97 dead, 98 good, 99 better, and 00 best yet. So do some research and check it out yourself. Find a contractor to help you out. Some will charge a percentage to show you what to do. But you get to gain from their experience and contacts. Good Luck Sorry so long AB. Its just that after a good season everyone wants to get an engine, then fails because they didnt know what they are getting into. I've seen people get divorced, go bankrupt, lose years of retirement funds, or quit good jobs only to regret it. Still hiring for Winnemucca. Call or email for more apps. only four spots left. 2 engb and 2FF eric PW 360 731 2627 MDMF007@email.msn.com
03/31	Danny, I'm having trouble with the sit report also. What is Real Download and how do you do it? I wish they'd just do it the old way. That was so easy. Mark
03/31	MERT, Not to rain on your parade, but forget about this season! If you really want to form your own company and go after contracts, I'm assuming we are talking fire, hook-up with an existing company and ask them what it took for them to get started. Contact a government contracting officer. Walk before you run. To address your stated problems, there is NO WAY to get around insurance! Every contract you bid on will require proof of insurance. Without it, one accident could lead to losing everything you have and will every have! About the only good thing about start-up cost is that they are tax deductable. Mortgaging your home may provide you with the capital to get started, but then if your company fails, you may lose your home. Will you be working year round or will betting on a good season to carry you through the off season? Business loans are available, but they will require collateral. Outfitting your truck and crewpersons will also add up. So will daily expenses such as fuel, pagers, phones etc. What about working capital? You didn't mention them in your problem list, but have you every dealt with the Department of Labor? You think the IRS is bad! Welcome to the real world! Getting into government contracts is alot more than just having a truck and bidding on work. But if it is your dream, go for it! Stu
03/31	MERT I dont know about the specific contract deals that you have to go through or even the grants. However, I do know that you can find old BLM, FS or state engines that are on the auction block. Usually you can find them fairly cheap and if you shop right you can find deals on any accessories that you may want. True, I do believe that the auctions usually happen either after the season or around the first of the year ( someone correct me if im wrong pls ) so it wouldnt help you this year, but for next year, it could save you some bucks... Good luck and stay safe Darren
03/31	Anyone know why they changed CDFs nice website? There are new colors - blah grey and tan. At least the information still seems to be there, although I'm not used to the new format. On another note, check out what firefighters take with them in Alaska: http://fire.ak.blm.gov/unique/docs/hiring/fireduty.asp Scroll down a little. Ab, your list on the faq page didn't include repellant. Is that a useful item in places other than Alaska (and Minnesota)? Todd
03/30	Help!!!!! I am with a group of 12 guys looking into getting a private contract. But here is where we run into problems. 1) They require workmans comp. Insurance and that costs a fortune. 2) We are unable to take advantage of grants and have to build a truck out of pocket. Costs a fortune also. 3) We were told we could become our own department but we do not know how to do this. If any one has some info regarding these matters please help. We are really looking forward to this season but it seems like we may never make it. It seems like we are always running into roadblocks. Thank you for any help you can provide. MERT
03/30	County Rover I was able to access the current Nat Sit Report thru Real Download then, Acrobat Reader. Give it a try Danny
03/30	-- for County Rover: Apparently NICC has decided to stick with PDF and isn't willing to budge on this. You can get the current sit report in html here: http://www.wildfirenews.com kelly
03/30	Hello all, I've been lurking for quite awhile. I'm looking for another way to get into the NIFC's sit report. For some reason, I can't get it to load. Any alternate sites, routes, or suggestions? Thanx. County Rover (formerly mp)
03/29	Catching up on some of the photos and logos. There is a logo of CIIMT 4 (Hutch tenured out as IC of that team and Aaron Gelobter stepped up); a new awesome picture of the fire in Florida 1998 "Green Burns" compliments of Marie; and a pic of LPF Engine Crew sent in by KC. (Who's that little FF in the background?) Ab.
03/29	Attn L.A. Cnty Camp personnel. While Looking thru the Logo & MocLogo sites I noticed that 5 (#'s 2 & 5 now closed -8-9 & 14) of the Cnty's 11 camps have posted their patches. As time permits this year, would it be possible to maybe post the remaing 6 (#'s 11-12-13-15-16-17 & 19) camps, even though they may be inmate camps? Also noted that 16 of the 87 shot crews nationwide are posted. Hopefully more will get posted this year. How about CDF? Maybe some of their 44 camps could post a patch. And lastly how about all smoke Jumper crews/bases and Helo flight crews? Patch Fanatic Send 'em in, I'll post 'em. Best to send them as a jpg or a gif if possible. If you want to make a hardcopy photo and can get a good one with detail, maybe someone could scan it for the site. As camps close and patches change, the collection here becomes a historical record of sorts... (Montana firefighter and FLA RANGER, try sending your logos again.) Ab.
03/29	Ab, a note: Jon Lee got the hotshot superintendant job for the Dixie NF. Not sure what they will be called.
03/28	Re: SC's Pack Test Worries This sounds familiar... I had the same problem, or so it sounds. I'm a young firedog with high expectations for myself and it was devistating for me not to pass the PACK TEST... after two times of trying and failing, once not passing in the allotted time and the other by withdrawl after a mile, I was crushed. Anyway, I'm an exercise science and phsyiology major, and I started asking questions... went to a few high priced specialists and nothing helped. They suggested shorter but faster strides, brand new shoes, try it in boots (more support), and finally I gave up! That is until I went to an athletic trainer, he suggested a PODIATRIST, a foot doctor, as it turns out, my whole problem is in my arches. As the muscles that hold up the arch get fatiqued with overuse, mainly from the exaggerated stride to maintain the pace to pass the test, severe muscle strain of the muscles in the arch as well as in the Tibialis Anterior. The Tibialis Anterior is probably where you are recieving the most amount of pain, that leads you to believe that you have shin splints. Give it a shot, see a Podiatrist, it may solve your problem. You may have to wear inserts which can cost a little bit o' $$$, but what's a little money compared to "livin' the dream!" Michael
03/28	Since the topic of the hiring process has again reared it's head, let me throw in my two cents worth. Here are some stats: Our forest has hired about 28 new temporary people. This has taken two weeks and the efforts of 13 people (4 HR, one fire person overseeing it, and at least 2 fire people from each of the ranger districts)! What a waste of time and money! In my opinion, the WO should have consulted those of us who have been through the temp hiring process in prior years before instituting this top-down decision. The WO *never* hires temps. They haven't a clue! They're creating a hiring process in a vacuum and it is way too complicated. This is in no way, shape, or form cost-effective in terms of time, effort or money! In addition, there have been some hard feelings created within some forests in the negotiating process as those on particular ranger districts, who worked so hard to find out who potential employees are and what they want, found those people traded away. Now comes Round 2... The hiring deadlines are being pushed back a week or more as ASAP tries to deal with its backlog and other forests that aren't ready, scramble. I think we should stick with the current deadlines. When are we going to be able to get folks trained, let alone getting in our own refreshers and other work? I know we're all doing the best we can. But why can't the WO consult those who are expert in the temp hiring process before taking an arbitrary action that complicates the process and affects so many? Thanks Ab, A Fire Fighter doing too much Chair-Sitting
03/28	More on HS & Sups: The Salt Lake BLM hired Nate Lancaster as their hotshot superintendant from the Logan Hotshots- The Salt Lake crew will be called the Bonneville Hotshots. Brett-
03/28	Ab- Thanks a bunch for the help. The number printed on the acknowledgement letters, 1-866-454-5402, seems to be incorrect or is having difficulties. Might want to pass this on. I was able to contact ASAP, and an evaluator there told me I only qualify for a GS-4. My last question on this subject: On the Demo announcement, a GS-5 can qualify based on education alone if you have greater than 120 credit hours that leads to a degree. Do you have to have the degree before you apply? In my situation, I have the credits, but I won't have my degree in hand until the beginning of May (before I start work for the season). Combining this with two seasons experience seems to fit the requirements (in my mind). Anyway, I'm looking forward to a good season and I wish everyone the best and be safe. Thanks for the opportunity to vent. JT
03/28	Brett- I'm not 100% sure that there are any look out jobs still available, but below is the FS site that lists jobs and their locations (along with contact phone #'s): www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap Once you get on the page click on the "Locations/Positions" button located on the NAVAGATION MENU and then you just need to pick what region you want to work in. According to what I looked at today, there were still some look out positions left in R-6, R-5, and R-1. How accurate is this information...who knows? Your best bet is to look them up, get the contact person & number, and call them to see if the job is still available for Round 2 hiring. Better hurry, you only have until March 30th to get in on Round 2. -S.Cal Helitack
03/28	Ab, I'm new to theysaid and have been looking things over. I have a bit of input for Mellie and the FAQ page on FS hiring. There is another important factor that plays into how decisions are made as to which forest makes a job offer. That issue is the number of times the individual may be a "duplicate" across forests, based on the number of forest selections they turn in. As an example, if an individual is duplicated on three forests, and a particular forest has three or four other duplicates, it isn't reasonable to think that a particular forest will get all their selections. What it boils down to is that there is inter-forest negotiation required and this process doesn't proceed as the applicant might think. Here's our forest's process. During the temporary hire in round one, we were duplicated with the a neighboring forest on four selections. We ended up negotiating for three of the four selections but of those three, we were duplicated with two of those with a second forest. We ended up getting two of the original four and felt good about it. We can not expect to get every employee that has indicated multiple locations. The employee has to also accept some responsibility though, in that they could ask to be considered for up to nine locations. A great number of applicants elected to do just that, fill in all nine. What the person actually suceeded in doing was reducing their options. If they were applying for a small forest that had few applicants as well as a large forest with many applicants, the chances that they would get the offer from the small forest was greatest. What that means, is that employees need to go out, do their research, decide where they really want to be and sell themselves to only their top choices. If you don't let a particular location know of your interest to work there, you have a reduced likelihood of getting the job you may really want. If you open your opportunities to the world, you may end up some place you really don't want to be. I am sure this has happened. More is not necessarily better. KJD Welcome and thanks for the comments on a complicated process. Ab.
03/27	Ab, heres the new email address for apps. Pacific Wildfire will have 4 engb positions in Winnemucca NV and 6 FF also EMT a plus. we are not looing to train people for Winnemucca. We will consider training for our other locations so experienced only please. call for pay scale, and other questions. Pacific Wildfire mdmf007@email.msn.com 360 731 2627 thanks AB ;)
03/27	Hola AB, I was wondering if anyone had any info on phone problems at ASAP in Boise? On Monday, the 26th I spent almost every extra second I had on the phone trying to get through, but all I got was a busy signal that would switch to easy listening music if you held on long enough (trust me, I did that a number of times). Eventually I would just get disconnected. The number I called was 1-866-454-5402. I have it memorized. Does anyone have an alternate number? A back door I could try? Thanks, JT (still trying to get that GS-5) I don't think you have the right number. The number to call ASAP is (877) 813-3476. Look at Mellie's FS job-faq page (link at top of theysaid). I just called and a message said "call between 8 and 4:30 Mountain Standard Time". You might also try sending an e-mail to fsjobs although time is short. I know those are reviewed every evening. Certs should be posted tomorrow. Good luck. Ab.
03/27	bend-- I hear that Ft C picked up a sup out of CA, Lassen or Plumas maybe
03/27	Ex Fed Engine Slug Contractors can be located several ways. If you can get a copy of R6 Data base, You got them all. If you contact a Contractor Association that is local to your area of interest, they should help you. Try the WEB, some have sites, most don't, for example www.a1fireout.com
03/27	Ex Fed Engine Slug-- There is the private contractor that I work for hiring out of Washington State. Ferguson Management Company. We are based out of Albany Oregon. We have dispatch centers out of Northern Cali, Western and Eastern Oregon, and Eastern Washington ( Toppenish ). If you would like more info email me at mtfirefighter@earthlink.net ...
03/26	SC About your pack test. I'd like to make a few comments - suggestions for what they are worth. The term "Shin splints" are kind of a catch-all term that don't mean anything in particular. Might I suggest you contact a physical therapist (that is familiar with the physical working lot of folks - not all therapist are) and see if he/she can identify a little more precisely what you complications might be (if there are any). You mentioned you were wearing "running shoes" to take the test. I'm a tree faller by trade and we pack around a 40 or 50 pound payload with saw and gear. I require stiff soles and a solid instep in my footgear for this work. (Please to keep in mind that each of our bodies are a unique combination, each with our own "physical personalities".) However, "running shoes" I'm familiar with aren't designed to carry a load such as is carried in the pack test. That could be a major part of your problem. Don't be embarrassed by not passing the pack test. Be thankful you learned of a "limitation" (whatever it might be) before it became a danger to yourself and others counting on you on the fire line. You have one hell-of-a think tank and support group with "They Said". Stick with it Bud, you can work your way through this. Have Happys, The Honorable Mouse.
03/26	KC, Here's a link for the AD Pay Plan. BB www.doi.gov/hrm/guidance/pb01-1.htm
03/26	Sad but true, Done In, and others, the lower one is in the food chain the more difficult it is to say "no." The young fire fighter in their first or second fire season may have received the basic fire training, but has not had real fireline experience. The individual does not recognize serious conditions, or concerns are muted because of faith (fear of) in their leadership. They have been drilled in the 10/18 but they are really dependent on their leadership. Ask why most entrapments involve groups of fire fighters. Because they are trained to work as a team. The team accomplishes assignments, be it a engine crew, a type 2 crew or a type I crew. The new fireman is taught to function as a cog in a fire fighting machine. Good leadership will also teach the fireman when to act independently. But set back and watch crews in action. Are they a team or are they a herd of sheep with matching T-shirts? Does extinguishing twenty "A" lightning fires and couple of "B" fires after a wet thunderstorm prepare the novice fire fighter for blow-up conditions? I could get wordy on the issues, but for every entrapment there is a specific set of circumstances but so many of them involve the same violations of 10/18 that the pattern cannot be ignored. Done In says the report is not the true story. I suggest he write his story. There maybe something we can learn. If he wants to protect his identity it could be written in the third person. Siskiyou
03/26	does anyone know of any pvt contracters that are hireing in washington state. i live here and like some info. i like to work for one .. thanks ex fed engine slug
03/26	"sad but true" "Extremely lower level" hmmm lets be realistic. The lowest level, the crewperson, makes very if any decisions that could kill or harm anyone besides themselves, except something like timber falling. But the "BIG BUT" once you make it to the crewboss level you become what we like to call in our training class a "certified killer". We stress to our folks in training if you do not have the guts or fortitude to tell a superior "NO" when you know the assignment is to dangerous or beyond your crew/engines skill, you dont belong being incharge. The folks below you, especially the cherries that don't know better, are counting on you to make the correct and safe decision. As you said, "Yes I know it is wrong. I have gone through it, and am sure many others have." I hope I never have to work with or for you. Your teaching the people below you the wrong things. Taking a bad assignment, that you know is wrong, because your worried about possible future placement, tsk tsk tsk shame on you. Your a "certified killer" with the safety off and the hammer cocked. Put your weapon back on safe and learn to say no the correct way. We teach not to just say no and give the reasons "why", but to give them a safe alternative. There is always another way. Abe, sorry for being so long winded. I'm sure you will get many responses to "sad but true", maybe one one of them will be more articulate then I am, but this one got me a little pissed off thinking this person is making life altering decisions for those beneath them, with that kind of attitude. Take care and be safe, B-man
03/26	I have heard through the grape vine that A.D. rates have gone up for the 2001 fire season. I have been searching for info online with no success. Could you please help by offering a suggested web page or even an email with the new rates would be great. Thank you for your time. KC
03/26	Hello, Just wondering if anybody had info on new supts. that had been hired for these new shot crews. Any info. on Craig (BLM), Elko (BLM), Salt Lake (BLM), Ft. Collins (FS), Idaho City (FS), or any others anybody has info on would be appreicated. Thanks. bend

03/26	In some cases it is very hard to say no to an assignment. It is one of the major problems I see today and have gone through myself. It is not very difficult to get on the radio to the Ops chief if you are a division to re-asses the situation when things look bad. At an extremely lower level of the incident command system there are some other circumstances. A firefighter that wants a future working at his/her favorite office in the world, has some difficult decisions. He/she needs a good recommendation. Yes I know it is wrong. I have gone through it, and am sure many others have. Sure, everyone can say no, but I am sorry to say at the bottom of IC chart that rarely happens. "sad but true"
03/25	stu, thanks for the advice and encouragement. The test was given on asphalt with a vest. Also I was wearing running shoes. thanks again for the help. SC
03/25	AB or anyone else that can give me some insight: I applied to Boise back in Dec., got my first confirmation letters in Jan. and noticed I was rated as a GS-4 for everything. I notified Boise by phone, the guy I talked to said I would qualify as a GS-5 (two seasons fire experience as a GS-3, 114 credit hours (semester) towards a Forests Management Degree, 12 more credits to be finished with a degree 6 weeks from now). That was over a month ago. Since, I have received 5 different confirmation letters (changes of Forests on 2 of them) but have yet to be upgraded to a GS-5. With the second round of perm and demo hiring coming up, I really want to upgrade my rating to get a better shot at a permanent position. I have called Boise 3 times on this subject and all I get is the "we have a lot of paperwork to do, we'll get to you" runaround. Is there anyone down there that will pay attention to me? Does anyone know somebody who works at FSJOBS that I could talk to directly? Thanks, JT JT, sounds like you should be off to see the Wizard! Maybe one of our Boise ASAP lurkers can shed some light on this. Ab.
03/25	Good Morning Ab & All, With a nice fresh cup of coffee in hand this sleepy Sunday morning, I was checking out the WLF news page. Since my national team is on 2 hour call, I've begun using the news page for possible indicators of assignments. Down the list a ways I see Central Taiwan has 45 hectares going, although since it was dated the 20th, it could be out by now. A trivial question came to mind as I scanned the article. What would the sack lunches consist of in Central Taiwan? Thanks for your continuing efforts on the site and the news page. It's a welcome addition for quick and current world/national info. BTW, since I wasn't sure how big a hectare was, I found this converter site and discovered 45 hectares is around 111 acres, http://202.139.249.50/convert.htm. Now I've another question or two, does the site get any hits from Taiwan? How about from other countries? Ok, one more question. I notice there are often duplicate headlines on the news page. Is there any way to filter these out? Have a good week all! Just Curious Hi Curious. Thanks for the conversion link. Useful stuff, even has "chain" conversions. I'll put it on the links page. The answer to your last question about duplicate news articles is "no". Many newpapers get their headlines from the AP wires. While the newspapers may retain the AP headlines, most will modify the content to fit their own local or political needs and viewpoints. So, even though the headlines are identical, the stories usually contain slightly different information. Regarding visitors. We have been tracking the numbers of visitors to the site for the last 7 mo. to see what pages receive the most interest. (Of course, we don't know who, just that people stopped by.) There have been 21 different visitors from Taiwan and other visitors from around 78 different countries. Here's more about the overall viewing activity on your wildlandfire site: (These are all different visitors unless stated otherwise.) Highest Day:  26 Feb.  2001  Page Views:  3,324 Highest Week:  First of Feb. 2001  Page Views:  17,966 Highest Month:  Feb. 2001  Page Views:  67,789 All Unique Visitors since 08/00:  387,712 All Visitors including and "reloads" or "refreshes":  509,959 Ab.
03/25	S-205 Instructor, The revision of this course has not been completed yet. When its finished it will have a new number, S-215. Look for it next year some time. Done In, I've tried hard to leave this alone but the mention of the Sadler report forces me to respond. I'll say this one more time: The Sadler report is flawed and is not the true story of what happened that day. If you were on that crew, you should be able to determine the discrepancies. I'm sorry you've had so many bad firefighting experiences. Maybe you should change where you work, because there are a lot of folks out there having good experiences. Yes, even in Nevada. I've had some there myself. Tom
03/25	SC, Don't give up! What type of surface was the test given on? I've found that a rubber track is much kinder to the body. Also, if the pack test vest are not used, a good backpack, I use an external frame type, with the weight secured high and close to the body, allows me to walk in a more upright position. A good pair of hiking boots and hydration are also important. This has nothing to do with preventing physical problem, but I have found that a CD player helps me fight the boredom of 12 laps and allows me to "space out." As far as preparing for the pack test, I try to stay in shape by working in the woods year round and with visits to a local health club. Beginning about a month before the test, I practice a 4.1 mph pace on a treadmill. (No weight.) Once I'm comfortable with the pace, I "know" what speed I'll need once I put the pack on. Yesterday, the company I work for administered the pack test. Out of nearly 50 people, we had only one not pass. At the end of 4 laps, he was beginning to experience leg cramps. Passing the pack test is a requirement for employment, however, more than one opportunity to pass is given by the company. Good luck with your next pack test! Stu
03/25	Just found a new web site that has a great power point presentation for I-200, I-300 and I-400, Modules 2 thu 17. They can be run from the web or downloaded. The site is---now be careful... www.wildlandfire.net WP
03/25	For those of you with young women in the family or young female friends, have them check out Camp Blaze for young women. Terrific opportunity to learn about fire and begin to get trained up. www.campblaze.com/ Firescribe
03/25	siskiyou, firefox, bob lee and any of you other folks from northern nevada, give me a shout! yes i am new to the fuels in northern nevada. i have fought fire in the pinelands of new jersey, the tall pines in montana, oregon, idaho and utah. do i have alot to learn about fuels in this state? hell ya. i like to think i have an open mind and very willing to learn from the experience of others. i would enjoy the chance to sit down with those of you who fight fire in these neck of the woods. give me a shout. it would be a great opportunity to get to know the folks i could be fighting fire with. BC Davis
03/25	Ab et all- Well, yer pup's made it into the begining on his FF1 Certification course... lookin forward to gettin this under my belt. I had a question or two to ask of the old dogs around about.. see if maybe they know something the pup here don't. Are there any orginizations out there that have scholarships for those student firefighters (such as me *grin*) that award scholarships either from a national state or local level? And if so, perhaps there is a website or two I can get pointed at to speed me along my way? With GIS (that nifty (new?) plotting tool) and the new resource ordering system in the computers, I'm gonna go computer science and minor with forestry and you never know, might just prove to be some use somewhere on the line someday. Any and all help is, as always, deeply appreciated. Thanks, Tiny, the R-6 Pup and Firefighter Recruit
03/24	Hi Ab, I have been reading theysaid since it was first brought to my attention, and kudos to your dedication & knowledge on wildland fire figthing. I have been a wildland fire fighter in Nevada, for the Great Basin for 4 years. And although I am by no means an "expert" I can assure you this... IF there is a situation that we do not feel 100% comfortable with, we have no problem saying "NO". In my opinion, you look more like a competant and responsible fire fighter by doing so. Our local management will also tell you that SAFETY is 1st prioirty. Every day @ our briefings the management tells us "There is NO piece of land worth your life." Whether you are a smoke jumper, engine personnel, hot shot or overhead, we are all out there doing the same thing with the same goals in mind. To suppress wildland fire without any loss or injury to life. DONE IN seems to want to try and cast the blame and play the victim. It's a shame he feels the way he does about our region. I am wondering though... Is he familiar with the 10 & 18? If you follow those at ALL times, you would never be involved in an entrapment. In every entrapment (close or fatal) you can bet that one if not more of those have been broken. To blame it on a particular region is ridiculous! My suggestion to DONE IN is to go back and take BASIC WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING, and accept some responsibility. If you feel that you aren't well informed on as assignment, then ask for more information, your life and the lives of your crews depend on it. But as NV FIREFIGHTER said... ultimately, it is EVERYONE's responsibility to ensure safety. And yes, I have been on both logistic & the labor side of Type 1 & 2 fires. Great Basin Fire Fighter (4 years & NO entrapments either)
03/24	Brett, Haven't heard of any lookout positions since a few months ago when we had some in Oregon. I just ran through a quick check on the OPM Series 462 page that Ab puts up and there are none there either. It's a bit late. Angie, you're a CA lookout aren't ya? Do you know the hiring timeframe for lookouts for R5? BTW, Ab, nice selection of lookout books on the books page. Cheryl Why, thank you. We aim to please. Ab.
03/24	To any one that can help: I have recently failed the Bakersfield blm pack test due to extreme shin splints. Here is a little background 'bout me. I did the explorer thing in high school, did some testing and applied for some seasonal jobs. I was very discouraged by not getting hired and had to see if "the grass was greener" if you will. After working in the auto, ambulance and construction industries respectfully I heard about the feds hiring drive and thought I'd give it another chance. I filled out the apps and enrolled in a wildland fire mgt. course (local blm inst.) and basic firefighter class including s190, ics100, standards for survival and some of s130(kern valley ihc inst.) as well as training for the pack test. I loved and missed it, no way the grass was greener. I started getting the shin splints and was told to take it easy but keep training, so that's what I did. I started out ok but by about a mile into it, my legs cramped up so bad that I couldn't move my ankles and had burning pain up to my knees. Needless to say, I failed (very embarrassing). My question, well, questions are these: first, any advice on overcoming this would be greatly appreciated and second I still haven't heard from the FS apps, if and when I do should I try theirs or scrap it for the season and just concentrate on PTing for next year. Also, I will be 28 now, will my age affect may being hired as a rookie (now or next year if not now)? Thank you to any and all who respond. Have a good, safe season. SC
03/24	Ab and All, Found this in the morning paper : "G.A. "Tony" "Pop" Bailey, 79, passed away March 22 2001 at his residence in Arroyo Grande Ca"....." He possesed a deep and genuine love for family and friends. Unable to serve his country during WWII, he chose to serve his fellow citizens as a firefighter. He joined the Los Angeles Fire Department "Mountain Patrol" in 1944 and retired in 1980, having served as a firebreak construction and maintenance supervisor since 1963". I did not know him but wondered if any of the old timers around here did. My condolences to his family and any friends who may read this. Tom
03/24	DEEFAMO I am considering turning it down. Maybe it is a character flaw on my part but misuse of government funds and programs does not sit well with me. By all documents I can find via the Depart of Labor, I should be able to show up, sign my paperwork, and convert immediatley to a GS-5 PFT..... will that happen..... of course not. The agency would like to pay me for two years salary to give me training I already paid for out of my pocket. Allegedy the training is worth $5,000.00, well I paid 3,000 for it and took vacation time to get it. Why?...... because I enjoy my job and endevour to succeed and advance. All of this training I went out and got..... could have been provided for me in house at my station. Was it?..... no, Why not?...... Well is wasn't because we were busy! I always have and still do think the program is a sham...in it's present and past forms..... it would however make an excelent extension of the ROP program that is in place in R-5. I'm sure you would just roll over and take it if your forest RIF'ed you and then said well you can come back as a lead firefighter at a GS-5. It is a foot back in the door!......... NOT LIKELY It's very easy to make judgements when you have been out of the field for some time riding a desk or cruising around in your DFMO rig.... Maybe i'm not a good candidate to be a "real" Fed Employee: I believe in taking care of folks that do a good job for you and not wasting $$$$$$$$$...... Damn!! there goes that Character flaw again. On another note..... the consensus I have, from discussing the JAC with numerous folks, both in and out of THE Region (R-5) is that it lacks a good product on the whole. I am not saying that good people don't come out of it, I have several very good freinds and know alot of other folks that are quality fire people...... however I doubt that any of these traits came from the Apprenticeship. WD
03/24	Letter from Deputy Chief has made it to R8. My question is with the last part, "will be made available for fire assignment". That should make a whole lot of the work force that was still mowing grass around the district office after we had been on three details take notice. Also, this should mean that fire comes before "project work" which I think is correct. adftr
03/24	WD, sounds like you should do us all a favor and turn the opportunity down, that way you can remain on the outside looking in, and continue to bitch and whine. You may be doing us all a favor. I find it pretty incredible that someone trying to get a foot in the door is offered that opportunity and then is not happy about it. I'll bet if the folks who offered you that opportunity knew what your reaction was going to be they would have sailed right by you on that cert. Your attitude should shout WATCH OUT to any supervisor. DEEFAMO
03/23	Nevada, I suspect that a lot of firefighters under estimate burning conditions in Nevada. Especially if you are from areas that do not share the same fuels and weather conditions. It seems like I have spent enough time in Northern Nevada the last few years to register to vote. During that time I have been awed by the weather conditions. At night the winds pickup and blow weeds and fire all over the place. During the day there are dust devils reaching hundreds of feet into the air. Brush, weeds, dirt and ash blow across all four lanes of I-80. You have a hard time maintaining control of your vehicle because of the cross wind. This is normal North Nevada fire weather. The temperatures are high and the RH is low. The flats turn into extremely step slopes. When you add fire to this mix things get interesting. When things started settling down in "99" I thought everything thing was going to be lost when a fifty mile hour Northwind hit. I was amazed, no escapes. Vehicles rocked from the winds, tents went flying along with everything else. I believe good mopup and the lack of heavy fuels were the key in the lack of escapes. The clean burns were a factor. The problem is that you cannot depend on it. A spark and another 100,000 acres could have burned in a few hours. Fire fighters live a life of airplane and bus trips to new areas with a whole set of local weather and fuel conditions. When local resources become overloaded limited local expertise becomes diluted. The Ten Standard Orders, and 18 Situations need to be running on your screen. When you get there early in the morning, things appear to be stable, the fuels are short, and you are tall and you wonder why they have not hooked it. A few hours later your mouth is dry and you wonder if that wind blows all the time. Another time you will go there and the fire has burned twenty thousand acres the afternoon before and by morning it is out. Who knows; I cannot think of a more extreme weather and fuel change than going from the Golden Gate Park to Northern Nevada in the summer. Remember, if you want shade in Nevada you must carry your own. I must admit that my observations are that of an old camp slug with no knees, who no longer feels the heat of the flame, but those old lessons learned in years past play a part in my every day observations. Nevada politics are interesting. In 1999 Nevada ranchers and politicians were demanding more aggressive fire fighting action. This was interesting in a State that normally would demand less of the Federal Government. Would these same people support upgrading engine foreman to seven and eights? I doubt. My hat goes off to those BLM, NPS, FS, State, and local fire fighters who do battle in Nevada. Siskiyou
03/23	Dear Done IN During the Saddler entrapment, you should have spoken up, since you had experience in the same fuel type and had been in a burn over in a similar situation!! And as for bashing Rangers, Hotshots and smoke jumpers, sometimes you get a bad apple but don't bash everyone. One or several of these folks may save your ASS someday! Someday that EMT/Medic who is working on you after a burn over or an accident on the fire line may be a park ranger! Rangers, Hotshots, and smoke jumpers are some of the most highly trained persons you will meet out in the resource management world. They have years of training in their chosen professions. As for type II hand crews, just because that crew was from Golden Gate NRA does not make them worthless. Type II crews come from every corner of the country, but they all have the same basic training and people move around alot. I think if I remember the Crew boss on that crew, he had just come from the Forest Service and had only worked for the NPS for a short while. So stop your agency bashing! In our highly mobile fire world I think every time a resource goes from one major fuel type or region to another, they should be given a briefing on local fire weather and fuels when they arrive in a region, such as was done in Florida in 1998. So, Done In, stop your whining and finger pointing and speak up the next time you don't feel comfortable on a fire assignment. You have that right! Fire Fox
03/23	-- for Matt: www.nicksboots.com/Break-In.htm firescribe
03/23	Matt, I found one of the best ways is to greese them up really well, about 2 or 3 times. After you have a good coat of greese on them, fill them up with water (thats right,lol) and leave them for about 24 hrs. After the 24 hours, empty them adn let them dry. They'll be broken in pretty good. Dont be the unfortunate one like me. Last year I had to buy a new pair of boots right in the middle of the season. Let me tell ya, my dogs were a hurtin bunch until they broke in. Thats when I truely found out the defenition of WHITE BITE, LOL. Good luck Mercury
03/23	I fully agree with you on some perspectives of your response, however i did come in at the GS-4 level several years ago now......have busted my hump to train myself and get Agency paid training as well get regular promotions from withing the Seasonal temp system. Not to mention the Fact that The program is being misused.....The Dept of Labor did not intend it to be used to hire qualified people, hence the name apprentice.....and the new SCEP (STUDENT CAREER EXPERIENCE PROGRAM) I am not enrolled in any Acredited educational program, which is a requirement as per the DoL...just wondering what's going on in peoples heads. Seems like an excelent way to get the whole program axed! WD
03/23	The Jobs and Wildland Firefighter Series 462 and 455 pages are updated. OPM 462 and 455 listings just continue to grow. Unbelievable. There will not be enough applicants. If anything changes in how jobs are being handled in Boise, could one of you Oz-types fill me in so we can let Mellie (the Wiz?) know for the FAQ on FS jobs page? NC DNR needs some "air" category employees - a pilot and a mechanic. (Check out the descriptions on the jobs page if you're a lurker of that persuasion.) Kaitlyn and Carrie could use one more set of answers to their questions of last week. Thanks to the ff who have taken the time to write in... I've forwarded your responses on to them. I'm going to keep them on file in case other young people have similar questions. Carry on... Ab.
03/23	wl: I've been there and I agree with BC, it is --nearly-- as easy as saying "no". I had the occassion on two separate fires last year to say "no". There was discussion with Ops, I articulated my concerns and we changed the assignment. In '96 I pulled an entire division 30 minutes before the fire blew up and ran a mile beyond our position. No arguments or repercussions at all. The key is being able to identify what it is you don't like about the assignment. Articulate a violation of any of the 10 or failure to mitigate any of the 18 and you are on rock solid ground. Articulate that you don't like to work with people from a certain location or agency, and you'll lack credibility. Safety is above all, your responsibility. WD- Having participated in the process here is one possible explanation (might not be applicable in your particular situation). Experienced firefighters qualified for higher GS level jobs will find themselves facing some tough competition. Although fully able to do GS-7 level work, all vacancies at that level may have been offered to other equally qualified individuals. That leaves lower paying jobs that your application said you were willing to accept. Are you overqualified? Sure. Will you be likely to move on and upward in the near future? Sure. Government jobs do not establish grade based on an individuals capability; grade is established by the requirements of the job. If we need a GS-3 shovel operator we aren't going to pay a GS-8 wage just because the individual is capable of commanding an engine. My advice: Get your foot in the door and shinny up the ladder just as fast as your talents and willingness to be mobile allow. I came in as a GS-3 and plan to retire at the 13 level. You can too. Old Fire Guy
03/23	How come when fire stats are reported they never mention the number of dozers or tractors or however they call them? I am not a track head by any means but those loud, lumbering, dangerous things sure do a lot of work on a fire. Just wondering? Sitting around and waiting for the 2001 floor show to begin so I can go dancing! L.A.V.E.
03/23	Dear Done In, I hope that you are doing well, I think a lot about the people that were on that crew and wish well for everyone. If you were on the NPS crew at the Sadler then you know who I am. I need to point out something, though. At the Sadler there were no BLM overhead anywhere near the crew on the line or in the chain of command from the IC down to your crew boss. The only BLM people on that part of the line were the two engines, and they weren't calling any of the shots. The overhead at the entrapment location and that were involved on the overhead team at the fire were all from other agencies. The fire was on BLM land, but that was about the extent of the direct BLM involvement in the entrapment. If you haven't read the report, you can download it here at this site at: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/sadlerreport.pdf The names and affiliations of everyone involved is included in the report. Though BLM is hardly a perfect outfit, BLM people weren't involved in the entrapment. I am very sorry that you had such a close call at a fire on BLM land, but you should place the responsibility on the proper people. Let me know if I can be of any help - I read this site pretty regularly. All the best, Bob Lee
03/23	Some good news, I landed a job on a BLM Hotshot crew. Anyhow my question is, whats the best way to break in a new pair of boots?? I just received a new pair of Drews boots and want to break them in right. I'm sure some of you firedogs have gone through quite a few pairs and I would like to know any tricks or tips that might help. Thanks in advance. AB I would also like to thank you and give you credit for my success in the job hunt. BTW, we've been pretty busy here in VA this spring. It's been fairly dry and with people burning off their gardens and trash it's resulted in some pretty good hours. Not really big fires but, hey there's smoke in the air. Matt Congrats, young Matt. I'll let the readers tell you about boots... Ab.
03/23	Here it is, finally! Money to implement the National Fire Plan and a link to more info on the NFP for those of you who want to know more. www.usda.gov/news/releases/2001/03/0050.htm Firescribe
03/23	Hey my name is Lance and I am a High school student. I am writing a research paper on smoke jumpers and was wondering if you could provide me with some information such as there training, pay, or a basic outline of what they do. I found a link to your website through the National SmokeJumper Association. If you could please send me some information at falconcc85@hotmail.com it would be a great help. Thank you for your time.
03/22	The RAWS website at http://www.fs.fed.us/raws has been upgraded and expanded. Most NFDRS stations are due for their annual preventive maintenance site visit, and the timing on the updates to this page couldn't be better. New sections include the RAWS field guide, a photo collection, contacts, tech notes, and a primer - a guide for the "once-a-year RAWS Tech." Another new feature is the opportunity to sign up for the "RAWS NEWS," an email newsletter with updates on the RAWS program. We will be continually adding content and other enhancements. We welcome your feedback - let us know how we can improve the website to make everything you need available online. THE RAWS TEAM http://www.fs.fed.us/raws
03/22	Ab, this letter came into my email box yesterday through Union Channels. Has anyone else seen it yet? What are you doing about it? I have not seen anything come through official channels on official letterhead yet. Anyone have a copy of that one? I know about everyone is probably testing already, I know we are. Thanks, dispatcher ----------------------------------- Letter to Regional Foresters, Area Director, and Station Directors Effective immediately, all persons shall fill out the Health Screening Questionnaire (HSQ) prior to conditioning exercises for, or taking, any level of the work capacity tests (WCT). The HSQ must be reviewed by a qualified, certified medical officer (physician, physican's assistant, or registered nurse) prior to engaging in any activity. The medical officer will determine whether a person is cleared to start conditioning, take a WCT, or whether a physical is required beforehand. People taking any of the Work Capacity Tests, i.e., light duty, field test, or pack test, shall only that test necessary for their red-carded position as described in the Wildland and Prescribed Fire Qualifications System Guide (NWCG Pulbication PMS 310-1) and must be made available for fire assignment. Revisions to the administrator's guide are forthcoming. This change to the April 14, 2000 MOU concerning WCT procedures has been agreed upon by the Forest Service Partnership Council. If there are any questions please contact your Regional Safety Officer or the National Ground Safety Officer. Michael Rains Deptuy Chief Haven't seen this, dispatcher. Many of us are just back from the CIIM Workshop in R5. Ray Quintanar stressed that all should be training for the WCT. There was one death in Mississippi of a woman doing the light fitness requirement and then another death, the details of which escape me. Everyone, here's the stuff you need to know: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/fit.shtml
03/22	BC davis, You make it sound so easy to refuse an assignment. Sounds like you have never been in that situation? wl
03/22	Hey anybody know of any look-out positions still available?!!!! Brett-
03/22	lo Ab. Re Done ins comments on NV fires. You definately need different tactics to fight basin fires. I started in R6 where Timber and slash predominates. It is definately an experience to see a thousand acre blow up on night shift. Three years ago I expanded into the basin. Fires move fast here, sometimes faster than you can drive through the sage and PJ. I thought a timber fire moved fast. We showed up at 0600 the first day of the West Basin fire near Jackpot NV. that sucker burned 30-40K in a couple hours. WOW! We were assigned structure protection and were waiting on a dirt road between the house and the fire. The fire was coming at us steadily with 10-15 foot flame lengths. and a 15 mph wind driving it. It was making steady progression towards us, when it just turned to the left and paralleled the road and then turned left again and went back over the little rise it had crossed previously. Wind and topo play a big role in where basin fires go. I had a lot to learn and am still learning with 50 basin fires already. To slam Fire Mgmt in the basin is a mistake. They may seem more3 laid back and easy going, but when it comes to fire they are totally professional. Folks like "Lurker" in NV will surprise you with how much they know and feel on a fire. Like BC said if your not comfortable with an assignment let em know. theyll know that maybe you see something they dont. Any decent mgmt officer will respect your decision and alter plans accordingly. anyhow just my two cents worth. later - and see you all out on the line. 60-70 days to go!!!! wheres the hot spot going to be this year? cascades are looking good to burn eric pw
03/22	Saw a mention or two about entrapments...I'm currently working with MTDC and NWCG on entrapments, shelter deloyments and burnover fatalities and would like ANY info on past occurences...official reports, rumors, etc... In order to decrease the future risk to firefighter safety we all need to collect all the bits of info we can!!! Contact me at smunson01@fs.fed.us...anonymous is OK! SM
03/22	I would have to agree with NVFIREFIGHTER. Not only does your safety rest on your shoulders, but so does everyone elses. Everyone is to look out for everyone else on a fire. Go back and rewatch your Standards for survival videos and take another look at your watchout situations. I know for a fact ( and everyone who knows me agrees ) that if I felt uncomfortable in a situation, I would pull out of there as fast as I could. Also, if a crew memeber were to come to me and say they felt uncomfortable or saw somthing I didnt, I would strongly reassess the situation I was in. You have to listen to everything and everyone. I guarantee that at the 0630 morning breifing, the fire wasnt where it was at when it entraped your crew. Last thought. REMEMBER, youre fighting fire. Youre fighting a massive, unpredictable and destuctive element of this earth. You cant just be out there wondering out in the woods. You have to be aware of your surroundings at all times. The second you let your guard down, it will bite you in the ass, which you know by now. And remember, Assumtion is the m,other of all F***ups , and excuses are like a**holes, everybody's got one. Take responsibility for yourself and your crew, lead by example, it is really easy to pass the buck, but it is difficult to take responsibility for a screw up, especially one that could have gotten people killed. Stay safe everyone. The season is starting up early. See ya out there. D&D
03/22	Ab, These aren't really PC programs, but that page on your site is the only place that I can see they would fit. These are fire programs developed by a firefighter for PDA's using the Palm operating system. I downloaded the demo programs (zip files) and installed them on my wife's Palm. I was impressed enough to order a Palm for myself. The first is Fireliner. It performs hydraulic calculations such as flow rate, friction loss, pump pressure, water requirements, hose weights, etc. There is a line production calculator, engine and other resource type classifications, safety rules, and other reference material from the fireline handbook. www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm !!!etc The second is Fireaway. I think this is the best of the two. It is like having the Behave program in your pocket. Some of the features of the FireAway software include- determine RH from wet and dry bulb temperature, predicted future RH based on current readings, fine Dead Fuel Moisture, Probability of Ignition, Midflame Windspeed calculated from 20' Windspeed, Behavior module (like DIRECT in FIRE1) instensity, direction of max spread, & haul chart. www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=9285 The above are freeware demo programs that limit some of the inputs, but they will give you the full flavor of the capabilities of the programs. The complete version with no input limits (both applications) is available on CD-rom for $89 from The Supply Cache Inc. www.firecache.com The demo versions or the complete software (again, $89) are available from the developer's site- http://www.scienceonthego.com/ deepwoods
03/22	Our DNRC Fire and Aviation Mgmt. Bureau homepage is www.dnrc.state.mt.us/forestry/dnrcfiresite/index.htm Could be another very interesting wildfire season in Montana. Current drought conditions are worse than 2000. Stay tuned. Eric
03/22	Can anyone tell me why, with the new Nation Fire Hire deal, people with 4 plus years that have held GS-5 and 6 positions as fully qualified Sr Firefighters and FEO's are being offered GS-4 Apprenticeship positions. It is my understanding that these positions and the Dept of Labor program that enables them are for entry level people (ie: one season) I myself was offered one of these positions....I have had 2 seasons on an active engine as GS-5 Sr firefighter and one season as a GS-06 where I was the sole operator due to lack of a GS-7. I have a fully signed of Crew Boss Task book and all classes that crwb entails. 90% of which I paid for out of my own wallet and leave ballance. Does it make any sence to retrain me? Hold me back from advancing? best case senerio, in two years I could be back at the GS-6 level, that is with no competition. Confused! Does it make sence to even offer me this position. WD
03/22	hey done in !! i am getting ready for my first fire season in nevada. i work for ndf. i got a kick out of your posting to say the least !!!!!!! i have heard so many things that i guess i will have to see what happens for myself. but believe me, i will cover my ass and my crews ass. i have no problem telling anyone NO if the assignment is a bull#%&^ one. i dont care if the pope is the fmo. so wish me and my crew luck and you never know who you might meet here ! BC Davis
03/22	Ab, Anyone have an estimate of the cost (labor, travel, etc.), including opportunity costs (work that didn't get done due to involvement in the issue) due to the "desk audit?" Puffin II
03/22	This is in response to DONE IN's comments about the Sadler Fire and BLM Management in Nevada. I have fought fire for the BLM in Nevada since 1995 and I think that you need to take a look at yourself before you start placing the blame on other people for what is your ultimate responsibility, YOUR SAFETY. If you were a member of the Park Service crew that was entrapped you have to keep in mind that when the order was sent it was made with the assumption that whomever filled the order would have the experience and qualifications necessary to at least meet Type II requirements. I can tell you for a fact that if local management knew that they were getting a crew thrown together from Golden Gate Park with minimal or zero experience they would have never been allowed on the fire. Also, and I have seen this first hand many times, crews come to the Great Basin and they have no idea what type of fire behavior to expect because all they see is desert and no timber. Well, in case you haven't noticed in the last couple of years the grass and sagebrush in the Great Basin can go to a 100,000 acre fire in a matter of hours depending on conditions. Crews that approach Great Basin fires using the same strategies and tactics used in other areas are going to be ineffective and useless. It is a whole different ball game here and the people who don't respect the fire potential become the subject of review teams and entrapment reports. Conditions change so rapidly that what might be a good plan during the morning briefing turns into a slew of watchout violations and hazards before lunch. Lastly, the managment problems that you refer to can not be blamed on local districts in Nevada. Many of these fires are managed my teams that get the majority of their members from out of state, once again people that have no clue about Great Basin fires. Believe me, there is nothing worse than going to one of these fires and being told how to fight fire from some guy from Califonia, New Mexico, etc. who is totally backwards on effective strategies for fires in this region. But, once again the ultimate responsiblity for your safety rests on your shoulders. If they give you an assignment that you are not comfortable with, don't do it. Tell team managment the situation and work something out. -NVFIREFIGHTER (6 years in NV and not one entrapment)

03/21	As one of the many Captain's involved in the recent "desk audit", I felt I must give thanks to a particular group of people..... OUR FIRE MANAGEMENT I would especially like to thank the Region 5 Fire and Aviation Management staff, the Forests FAM staffs, and the District fire staffs. I would also like to thank Jan Cawthon, the personnelist from the San Bernardino NF who was such as help to us. Those folks gave the support to keep the GS-8 and GS-7 positions alive and spell out to the folks in the WO what was expected of the Captains in R-5. The Management folks understood that the guidelines that have been given to us in regards to interface fire management and prescribed fire could not be accomplished without the use of a mid level manager/supervisor. They saw that the role of a wildland firefighter has changed and that it was a whole lot more than "just putting out wildfires". Some of the things that I feel that were greatly supported by OUR MANAGEMENT in the Region, Forests, and Districts were: ..... as part of OUR understood position description......... - Captains preparing and implementing type 2 and type 3 burn plans - Instructing local, regional, and national training courses - Serving as Incident Commander Type 3 and 4 - Managing a remote site ... ie-fire station... - Performing all risk duties as a supervisor and IC - Preparing and implementing unit project work plans - Supervising a workforce that was in place from 9 to 12 months / year Without the support of our management on this issue... the war would have been lost before the battle began.... THANKS ----------------------------------------- Thanks to "They Said" and the Abs for being a sounding board and an excellent supporter of wildland firefighter issues... you are also responsible for the positions remaining as is.. THANKS TO "THEY SAID" from the R-5 Captains ------------------------------------------- /s/ Rookie-Capt ....PS...... "6" thats your answer in a nutshell......
03/20	Does anyone have an idea of where we'll all be spending our summer this year? http://www.nnic.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/regional_monitoring/palmer.gif /s/ SoCalCapt
03/20	The Sadler Incident I was crew member on the incident and have been treated this way about five other times. Anybody hear about the Caliente, Nevada fire in 1994? I also heard about another burn over in Nevada that was not mentioned. Regarding Sadler, you just had to be on that park service crew to see what went down. Leadership is not made. It is an inherint quality. Until the Park Service gets away from its assinine position that a Ranger is a born leader of men (When all know that the person is an idiot) and the Forest Service quits putting hot shits in charge, these problems of safety will not go away. I have been to Nevada twice and been entrapped twice and both were B.L.M. shows with lots of ex-shots and jumpers in the overhead. BLM stands for Basically Lousy Management. I for one will not be going back to Nevada for the Trifecta. What do you have when you have Nevada overhead up to their necks in sand? Not enough sand. Done In Sounds like a good decision. Ab.
03/20	I heard that S-205, Fire Ops in the Urban Interface has been changed or upgraded and is now called S-215. Does anyone out there know what was changed/upgraded and whom do I contact to get the new S-215 instructors package? Thanks! S-205 Instructor
03/20	I think consensus on forests is that we should now have open rosters for seasonal temporary folks. Enough of the current hiring system. Let's just do it? Anyone disagree? AL
03/20	Here are some interesting IMWTK trivia provided by Greg Greenhoe at the CIIM Workshop in Sacramento today: On the peak fire day last summer - Aug 29, 2000 - there were 28,462 firefighters on duty 667 crews 1,294 engines 226 helicopters 42 air tankers 84 fires greater than 100 acres 1,642,579 acres on fire in 16 states The Clear Creek Fire had the largest, longest sustained run of any US fire, burning more than 30 miles in heavy timber. The Montana fires alone engaged 2,379 state and federal firefighters, 1500 local firefighters and 950,120 acres burned NorCal Tom
03/19	Ab, Yes, Carrie and I still would like wildland firefighters to answer our career questions. The questions are as follows! 1. What exactly is a wildland firefighter? 2. What type of working conditions are there? 3. What does the job require? (Education? Training? College? University? etc...) 4. How many hours do you work a week? 5. On average what would a wildland firefighter make per year? 6. What personal charactreistics are required for someone to be successful in your job? 7. Do you think that there will be a lot of demand for wildland firefighters in the future? Why or why not? 8. How do you think the job will change in the future? 9. How much job security is there for wildland firefighters? 10. Do you enjoy your job? What are somethings that you prefer about it? And what are somethings that you do not prefer about it? Thank you for being very cooperative! Kaitlyn and Carrie Kaitlyn and Carrie, we all are wildland firefighters, which means that we fight wildfires in the woods, in the desert, in the grasslands, in the mountains, and on the wildland/urban interface (where cities meet the woods). Thus, I added "wildland" to each of your questions. Readers, any of you who would like to respond to these girls (or young women), send in your answers and I'll forward them on, after removing your e-mail address. Ab.
03/19	I teach ceramics to firefighters and have been looking everywhere for a mold of a wildland firefighter: figurine, mug, anything. Do you know of any? - Diana drose@mtnempire.net
03/19	Not to muddy the waters on the issue concerning pay for engine captains (or foremen as they are known in 49 out of 50 states) but why are qualifications never considered when looking at pay. My thought would be to establish a base pay for a position, then give a bonus to folks who get qualified and keep current in key positions, IC type III, Burn Boss II, FBAN, ATGS, etc. Right now there is not always much incentive for working up in some of those areas, especially burn boss. No extra pay, lots of extra pressure to get acres black, and lots of extra liability. Your thoughts? 6
03/19	So how exactly do PDs in regions other than 5 need to be posted to describe engine captains that qualify for GS-8? Is training they provide a part of it? I presume Rx burning fits in because of the year-round 7 day on-the-job. Anything else? Just Wonderin' in R3
03/18	A couple of points to clarify the "helishot" issue. In ICS terminology, the correct term is "fly crew" or "flight crew". In its concept, a "flycrew" crew combines the skills of helitack support with initial attack/large fire support handcrew. Yes, by ICS terminology, it will be rated as Type 1, but only within the realm of ICS, see the Field Operations Guide for all the "criteria". In the 70's & 80's it was more common to see these crews, they were one of the first to go when the guv started its fleecing of the fire service. As far as the Super Puma being at FHL, that is old and inaccurate info. There will be no ship at FHL, the Type 1 (whether Super Puma or S-214ST) will be at Arroyo Grande on the Los Padres. It will have a rather large module, almost 30 people, will be rappel qualified, and able to put 15-18 bodies on the ground upon an IA dispatch. In reference to Jakes post, you are referring to the Fire STOP (Standard Type One Program) helicopter from last year that was based out of Kernville. This was the Regions program to (rather hastily, I might add) augment the airforce for the region considering what what was happening in the rest of the west. It wasn't easy coming up with 4 available Type 1 Standard Category (people carrying) ships, so we took what we could. It just so happens that the 214ST didnt have a belly hook at the time, hence the reason it had no bucket. The term "helishot" associated with the Fire STOP program was inaccurate, the region applied the term to the modules, not the crews. By all logic, the crews were not type 1 rated considering they did not meet the ICS or the IHC criteria for a type 1 crew. Considering the price tag for a Type 1 ship, this will probably be the first to go when the guv gets the bill. It would be better to use the 212/412 platform for the flycrews. It worked well in the past, the problem was there were not very many of them. Sting
03/18	el medio fd Here is the latest info I have as of last Tuesday. - Jim This is a message from the FEMA's US Fire Administration. FIRE GRANT PROGRAM UPDATE WASHINGTON -- The Federal Emergency Management Agency and the United States Fire Administration (USFA) announced today a toll free information line is now available for the new Assistance to Firefighters Grant Program. The toll free number is 866-274-0960. Calling hours are Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. E.S.T. The line will also accept voice-mail messages after hours, on weekends, or if the line is busy. Questions may also be sent to a toll free fax line, 866-274-0942, or e-mailed to usfagrants@fema.gov The complete set of grant application forms is not currently available, but will be posted on the USFA website in the near future. The forms will be downloadable from the web site, but it will not be possible to electronically submit completed application forms. Further information will be posted as soon as the Interim Final Rule is published in the Federal Register. An announcement will also be mailed to every fire department, state fire training agency, state fire marshal's office, and to allied professionals. All Assistance to Firefighters Grant applicants will need to complete several federal forms in order to prepare a grant application. There will be a 30-day open grant application period beginning shortly after the Interim Final Rule is published in the Federal Register. In addition to program specific information, applicants will be required to complete the following generic forms: SF 424, Request for Federal Assistance FEMA Form 20-20, Budget-Non Construction FEMA Form 20-16, Summary of Assurances SF-LLL, Lobbying Disclosure These forms are now available on the USFA Website at www.usfa.fema.gov/grants/. A brochure, Developing and Writing Grant Proposals is available for download in PDF format. This seven-page document explains the basic steps in Federal grant proposal writing. Grant applicants will also be required to submit program specific information that must be correlated with the above forms. Potential applicants may familiarize themselves with the generic forms; however, it may be premature to fill them out at this time. The SF 270 form listed on several websites would be used by awardees to request funding transfers, and it is not required unless an actual grant award is made and a subsequent transfer of funds is needed. Anyone interested in serving as a grant evaluator should contact one of the following fire service professional groups: Congressional Fire Services Institute - www.cfsi.org International Association of Arson Investigators - www.fire-investigators.org International Society of Fire Service Instructors - www.isfsi.org National Association of State Fire Marshals - www.firemarshals.org National Fire Protection Association - www.nfpa.org National Volunteer Fire Council - www.nvfc.org North American Fire Training Directors Each Evaluation Panel will meet for one week at the National Fire Academy in late May and early June to review grant applications. Good info. Thanks Jim. Ab.
03/17	If you know of any information on how our fire dept. could get a grant to obtain so new equipment? It would be very helpful. We are a small dept. and need all the help we can get. Thank you el medio fd
03/17	My limited information tells me that the Super Puma has a 20 person Heli-attack crew on it. They are Type I rated but I do not know the composition of the crew. I believe they will have rappell capability this year or they are working on it. This incredible aviation resource will be stationed out of Hunter Ligget on the Central Coast of Calif. Sure as hell beats the Bell 214 Heli-Shot Helicopter with NO Bucket that was stationed in the central valley of Calif. Thats alot of helicopter sitting on the ground. Jake
03/17	KSL, I was on a heli-shot crew back in 1988, and for all I know things could've changed by now. The crew was Type I, interagency. We were stationed at the Apple Valley Station, California Desert District, BLM. The ship was a Bell 212 that had been modified. Although I later found that I prefered being on a hotshot crew, that ship rocked! As a general rule, there were eighteen people on the crew with rotating days off. At any given time, nine people were to fly in the ship, with the remainder of the crew on helitack duty. Assignments were on a rotating basis, with exceptions taken to experience, expertise, and weather (the higher the temperature, the less weight a ship can carry). All members of the crew were helitack qualified, although most of us did not really like helitack duty. We were largely used as an initial attack crew. However, due to a constant demand for ships, we were sent throughout the Western U.S., and put on assignments like any hotshot crew. I only served one season on Apple Valley Helishots, and then went to a hotshot crew. As strange as it sounds, I preferred humping into a fire over flying into it. Plus, it seemed as though you ended up spending more time in the field on a hotshot crew. So I guess it's just personal preference. As stated, I prefered being on a hotshot crew. Anyways, this was some thirteen years ago. I may have forgotten some things and some other things may have changed by now. Nevertheless, I hope this provides you with some information. Ethan
03/17	S.I. Saw your request re: contrating/driving fire bus's. I can't tell you which way to go, but let me offer a few facts/advice. As with any call when needed contract, there is NO guarantee of work. Bus companies are called when needed, location and price are the main determining factors as to which company gets the first call. If you are a company owner and do not have other work to keep your bus's running all year, you have approximately 100 days to make your money for the year. If you owe lots of money and it is a "poor" fire season--well you can do the math. I suggest you find a job with an established company, drive for a season, learn as much as you can about the fire bus business, and then make your decision. Hope this helps. WP
03/17	I was wondering about these Heli-Shot crews. Where are they located? Are they an actual type I rated crew, or are they a 20 person helitack crew that breaks up into IA squads. Do they Rappell? I am just curious because I have heard rumors of crew being formed with a Super Puma that was going to be a type I crew that was Rappell capable. If anyone has any info let me know. Thanks KSL
03/17	I just got offered my first "temp" job for the season. Not a PSE, but, what the hell....... They're beginning to start...... -H
03/16	Firehorse, I havent heard of making GS-7's or 8's in to GS-9's as AFMO's. But, if the position has program management as a requirement, then it meets item 1-6 of the FES and deserves a GS-9 if supervisory and a GS-8 if non-supervisory. ac (Amature Classifier)
03/16	Dave, Brax, firenwater, all-- The question should not be: Should the Captains in California be GS-8's? Rather, it should be: Should ALL Captains who have the same responsibility be GS-8's (whether Flagstaff, Prescott, Boise, Glenwood Springs, etc.)? For all of you who care, the reasons the GS-8 engine captain positions are staying as is in California (and not to be confused with supervision -ie- the GSSG) are these: Level 1-5 Knowledge Required Level 5-3 Scope and Effect These items can be reviewed at the http://www.opm.gov site. In Region 5, Engine Captains are serving "a majority of their time" in positions of ICT3 and developing and implementing burn plans. These are the keys to level 1 and level 5 and to their GS-8 ratings. If other regions have a problem with this and they apparently do (as per the OPM appeal decision that started the reevaluation), then they shoud re-write the PD's of their folks to include these items. In Region 5. Capt's supervise a year-round workforce, thus, the engine captain exercise for the certifiers. The San Bernardino NF had over 70 employees involved in that exercise. This is more firefighters than most Forests employ in a typical fire season. Fires happen in SoCal year-round---- Viejas Fire = Year 2001 (Jan. 2001). Captain at Large
03/16	Series 462, 455 and the jobs page are updated. There are about 55 more positions advertised on the 462 series than last Tues. BLM Rawlins WY field office is offering 2 heli jobs and 1 lead range tech (fire) position. Get those applications in. We're not done yet, folks! Ab.
03/16	Hi Dave, having just gone through the recent audits, I felt I had to give some info... for rating of GS grades the following info is the MOST inportant.... Level 1 Knowledge Required (The knowledge of the professional series supported (ie- forestry, biology, soils, etc...) (For any GS-0400-0499 position) --Level 5 Scope and Effect (How that knowledge relates to the program being applied... and its long term success...) And as a supervisor, how the GSSG applies to that position......That is, how the positions are rated for grades..... Not for how many one supervises... Only the GSSG item 5 takes in to account how many folks a supervisor actually superises...... The GS-8 Captains won their position based on these factors..... and "Dispersion"... and after the audits... these positions should spread nationwide based upon the actual duties performed... "IF THE POSITION IS A SUPV. FORESTRY TECHNICIAN INVOLVED IN SUPPRESSION, PRESCRIBED FIRE, AND FORMAL TRAINING (ie-college level).... //Former Capt//
03/16	Howdy Folks... After being a school bus and transit bus driver, trainer, and manager for more years than I'll admit here, I'm sick of the rat race. Several of my friends and employees have been, or are fire bus drivers and all say they love it. I'm thinking of driving firebus this season and possibly becoming an owner/operator with my own bus or even a small fleet with paid drivers next season, contracting to USFS. I'd appreciate hearing feedback regarding pros and cons, good and bad experiences you've had, what you look for in a good transportation provder, equipment, driver, service, etc. If I start this business, I want to know what the REAL users want from it. Thanks for your input! S.I. firebusR4@hotmail.com
03/16	Ab, you were babbling about engines and 5 day effective vs 7 day effective and sayin thats the reason those engine slugs get gs 8's. I don't think so! There are better reasons for dollars than supervision. How do you explain an Initial Attack hand crew Captain that is stuck with 7 wages. For my money I'd rather have a 'complicated piece of machinery' to run with 5 or 7 FFTRS than a hand crew with 10 people 7 days a week (14 FFTRS). Which do you think is more complicated the machine or the people? Theres a whole bunch of reasons those guys get 8's outta the deal, mostly to buy bigger hats. Later. Dave I don't remember you (or anyone else) saying the IAHC captains shouldn't be 8s. The hotshot superintendants are 9s, the hotshot foremen are 8s. The hotshot foremen only oversee the activities for 8 or nine people five days a week and have no suprvisorial responsibilities except in the absence of the super, who I must add is very seldom absent. The IAHC captains can have full supervisory responsibilities of 9 people 5 days a week, responsible for project planning and accomplishment, and station maintenance. A position description comparison along with a corresponding desk audit should alleviate this descrepancy, hopefully in the near future. To specifically address your last question with tongue firmly in cheek, new people are more complicated, but once training and working together for a while with good supervisors (who deserve to be fairly compensated), maybe the machine -- that is, if the fire behavior is held constant. Ab wants ta know: Is that hat's bigger than before? or hat's the size the overhead wear as they try to hold the fire to a constant or at least figure what it's gonna do?
03/16	Hey out there, Just heard the FS is looking into making all AFMO's GS-9's instead of 7's and 8's. Anyone know anymore? Firehorse
03/16	Fired up a saw today, felled a snag, bucked it up, and like all ex-hotshots, started reminiscing. About a year ago, I posted a message in which I was looking for some comrades whom I've lost touch with. I received a few replys, for which I'm grateful. However, I'd still like to hear from anyone who was with Apple Valley Helishots in 1988, or Dalton Hotshots in 1989 or 1990. Or, if anyone knows the wherebouts of Mike "Veg-Man" Ceriello, Dan "Ogie" Ogden, Tom "Peach" Nyberg, Bill Fonda, Junior, Maurice, Don-Ho, or Alex Csatari, if you could drop me a line, it'd be appreciated. My e-mail address is eestey@amphi.com, or you can post a reply on this site. For whatever it's worth, the only story I've ever read that describes what it's like to be on a shot crew is Norman McLean's novella, The Ranger, the Cook, and the Hole in the Sky: USFS, 1919. If you've never read it, you ought to. Although hotshot crews didn't yet exist, he describes what it's like to be on one. If you read it and don't get a little choked up, dammit, then you were never a shot. Keep your chains sharp and your canteens full. Ethan
03/15	Already Hired, Your comments are spot on. I came in with the Viet Vets and can attest to the fact that many of my peers brought to the Agencies a high level of maturity and ability to supervise people in very stressful and hazardous environments. Those type of attributes, and there are many others, while invaluable, are sometimes overlooked or not considered. I was initially hired not because of a point preference, but because I had demonstrated strong supervisory skills, skills I acquired when I was 19 years old. That gave me a nice edge years later in the job pool. It has been a good program that has brought top notch people into fire management and I believe, will continue to do so. DM
03/15	ab, Just returned from Colorado after a quick trip to hike Storm King. Hiked on Sat. and ended up having good weather considering what was happening in the rest of the state. Trail was still icy in parts and muddy. Wasn't too bad getting up to the overlook of the west flank line. Rest of trail was snowy and muddy. The west-flank fireline still had deep snow and was very soft, so made hiking very difficult. The crosses are all uncovered though and easily visible. Was very somber looking over the items left and thinking what must have been running through their heads when things went down. Especially the two helitack guys. How close they were to the ridge top on the west line is very surprising and sadening. Another few seconds and none of this would be talked about. The mountain is great memorial and should be hiked by everyone involved in wildland fire. I was expecting a much longer hike and steeper country. But to second guess anyone that was on the fire is absurd and does no good. Have to wonder though, what could or should have been done different and if any of it would have made any difference. The registration box is well marked with stickers from various areas, crews, and people. Added crews logo to box, adding to many different shot crews that are represented. I would hope that more people take the opportunity to hike the mountain to learn and pay tribute. SRS
03/15	-- BLM Bob After your comments, I went back and reveiwed your statements, and mine.... You are correct, you did give some very good information (damn near excellent). I would have to say I probably jumped the gun with you and may have been a bit excessive and possibly out of line. I apologize. Momentarily Bored--- I have a little experience with riparian areas, although I don't quite understand your questions. However, I have seen swamp fires burn the tops of the swamp while you're slushing through 24" of water dragging a hose to put the cattails out before the fire reaches the hillside...... -sec
03/15	MH They should have known that. There was 0 wind in town and the 911 operators were swamped. The Forest came back with the excuse that maybe they needed to let the public and other officials know when they were burning. ;-) Ab, could you include the attached photo? BTW it's not as pretty as the Elk Bath picture. Jim Here's the smoke sinks photo. Ab.
03/15	The national sit report from NICC is now available on the web in html from wildfirenews.com/ It's about 10K in size, compared to 88K in PDF format. The tables are not formatted, so if you really need to see the figures in table format, you'll have to suffer with the PDF format until the folks at NICC get it back together. Don't hold your breath on that, though - they say the PDF format is a "cleaner end product," whatever that means. kelly.
03/15	Jim: The effect that you are describing is known as an inversion layer. It occurs when cold air gets trapped beneath a layer (or cap) of warmer air. This happens due to diurnal heating of the ground. When the sun goes down cool, denser air flows downward into valley bottoms, canyon bottoms, etc. This causes the warm air to trap the colder air beneath it. Smoke, dust, and other particulates get caught in the denser cold air as there is no vertical air movement inside the inversion. The inversion will remain until solar energy heats the cold air enough to allow it to rise and "break through" the inversion layer. Many times fires that are beneath the inversion layer lay down with minimal activity until the inversion breaks, then these fires blow up due to the sudden increase in air movement. This can happen in a matter of minutes during early morning hours. I have also seen fires burning in the middle of the night where in the lower elevations there is no fire activity due to the cooler air temperatures but there is active fire near the same elevations as the inversion layer. Hope this helps you out. -NV FIREFIGHTER No lakes in your neck-o-the-"woods", eh? Ab.
03/15	Re: no downgrade. . .letter in the mail. Excuse me if I hold off popping the cork on the champagne till the letter arrives. Even then, it will most likely be a "virtual" cork. I've passed this milestone before and have yet to preceive a logical reason to revisit. I suggest the person(s) responsible for the uneccessary review restitute the government for the costs incurred by those forced to participate. I also recommend a spot cash award for all those who have suffered mental anguish caused by the event. $500 might help ease some of the emotional distress and make the incumbents feel more appreciated. Has any thought been given to providing on-site counseling for those feeling betrayed one too many times by their agencies? Rhino (with chinks in the armor)
03/15	lOOKING TO BORROW AN S-290 cd ROM CLASS IF YOU HAVE ONE AVAIL. PLEASE EMAIL ME AT TEKEBIRD@YAHOO.COM THANKS
03/15	Jim: I am not familiar with the term "Smoke Sink", but am very well acquainted with the phenomenon. It is not a new thing by any means. It is a facet of "lake effect." In spring and summer, lakes, and in particular large lakes, are cooler than the surrounding land and cause the air over them to cool and sink. If that air is full of smoke it will capture and hold the smoke. Then with air continuing to rise from the surrounding land, there will be an onshore flow, blowing smoke inland. This also happens with sea breezes. I can think of a couple of examples of this. In the mid 90's one of the National Forest Districts in Wisconsin did a prescribed burn in July (non fire season). During the afternoon the smoke rose and was carried out over Lake Superior with a southwest transport wind. That evening it came back ashore in Chequamegon Bay. It wasn't as thick as your example, so that there weren't any serious visibility problems, but it caused quite a few citizens to call in reporting forest fires in the neighborhood. Another time, a very large wildfire on the North Carolina coast sent a column of smoke out to sea, which came back ashore in South Carolina. As to why it happened only once in the last 20 years, I can only guess that it just happened that the transport winds, mixing heights, tonnage of the smoke and timing of the burn were in the right alignment to cause the smoke to remain concentrated and to be captured by the lake effect. MH Welcome and thanks, MH. Interesting info. Ab.
03/15	Re the sit report in pdf only: FYI, there has been some discussion among the FS web-types that PDF may not even meet the criteria for the Americans with Disabilities Act. Whether it does or not, it's a hassle for readers to deal with. Ab, if this pdf-only reporting continues, maybe this site could offer a non-pdf sit report. I know that might be some work on a daily basis, but perhaps a few of us could help out so all can have ready access to the info... NorCal Tom Yeah, right, Tom! Thanks for the offer, but I'd rather Boise get it together -- they're getting paid to do the job. Now maybe if you wanted to help with some little animated gifs?... Ab.
03/15	I'm sitting in a workshop full of fire mgrs, hydrology types, and researchers. We are trying to get a handle on how riparian areas influence fire effects on adjacent upland landscapes. Also, how useful are riparian areas as anchor points, fuel breaks, safety zones, etc. Riparian is roughly defined as streams and ponds with their adjacent wetland vegetation. Clearly, the ability to fill a pissbag or engine from a stream helps suppression but what other effects are dependent on a healthy stream/riparian system? Any thoughts? Momentarily Bored
03/15	Stu:: You dont reckon that you might have a copy of that (those) contracts for the crews...there have been some questions in my class about this very thing...if you want to be ann EMT...you have to have a Medical Director (short for a doctor who takes ultimate responsibility for your actions), but IF it is a condition of your job..then the agancy has to provide you with a medical director. My EMT instructor is kinda out of the loop..so im wondering if he's right b/c if the shots require an EMT..according to my teacher..the FS (or who-ever) has to provide a medical director. thanks again, ZKP
03/15	"already hired" , I am a veteran, 4 years military and 27 years forest service. I would like to apologize to all the vets out there, I meant you no disrespect or discredit. I have once again proven that both of my size 11.5 whites will indeed fit into my mouth at the same time with room to spare. Veterans should indeed have preference in our workforce as I did when I was discharged from the military and hired 2 weeks later by an FS "shot" crew. The intended "slam" was at the WO inventors of our current hiring procedure and it's implementation. Giving Vets preference is one thing, but giving anyone 9 choices of where they want to work and guaranteeing them a job without letting the receiving unit interview, call references or have any say in the hiring procedure is a little farfetched and I would say bordering on coddling. KSL, No, I did not mean that young adults should not be hired.. quite the contrary.. wildland firefighting is a young persons job! I commend you for knowing what you wanted to do early in life and going after it. Keep up the good work and stay safe..... /disgusted (but not always!)
03/15	SUBJECT: The International Exhibition for Disaster Control and Emergency Treatment Services Dear Sirs/Madams, We would like to inform you that The International Exhibition for Disaster Control and Emergency Treatment Services will be held on 15-18,August 2001 in Shanghai, China. Various activities including a disaster control and emergency treatment forum, seminars/conferences, business talks and new products appraisals will take place during the event. The fair details and a Space Reservation Form are attached for your information. (E-mail them for those forms. Ab.) If you need any assistance, please feel free to contact us. Organizer - The Civil Defense Office of Shanghai Municipal Government Co-organizers - Education Network & Exhibition Services Ltd. - OIC Advertising & Exhibition Co., Ltd. - The Disaster Preparedness and Emergency Response Association (DERA) - The International Association of Emergency Managers (IAEM) Thank you. Best regards, Kwan CHU Education Network & Exhibition Services Ltd. 14E Cindic Tower, 128 Gloucester Road, Wanchai, Hong Kong Tel: 852 2598 7556 Email: enesjonathan@ctimail3.com The Disaster Preparedness and Emergency Response Association Mr.Bascombe J.Wilson Executive Director Email:dera@disaster.org The International Association of Emergency Managers Ms. Elizabeth B.Armstrong,MAN CAE Email:Iaem@aol.com
03/14	A question for all you smoke eaters. Has anyone ever heard of the phrase "Smoke Sink"? Our local forest smoked out the town which is 20 miles away to the point visibility was less than 200 yards. The explanation was the cool air of a large lake that was close by caused a smoke sink. The interesting part is they have been burning around this lake for over 20 years and now the smoke sink effect is something new. Jim
03/14	From Firescribe in response to various questions: Map showing the large fires we had last year www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/firemap.html Wildland fire potential map (in fire season this is the site of the fire maps) www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/potentmap.html Drought severity index by division www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/nfn.html And here's a heads-up on a new video Firestorm 2000 that should be in stores by April. www.missoulian.com/display/inn_news/news01.txt
03/14	Hello, I'm having a problem. I'm applying for a fire job with fish and feathers. (FWS) I've been trying to apply online, everything goes fine until you get to the Supplemental Qualifications Statement (SQS) The only part you can see is the answer sheet. With no way to know what the questions are. Instructions are not available for viewing through opm website. Can anyone offer some advice? Also, What area of the west is in drought conditions this year? i.e. any guess on where and when it will crank this year? Sounds like R-3 is wet this year. Thank you, -Flynn- Anyone know about FWS hiring? Mellie? Anyone else? What are the deadlines? Electronic or hardcopy? Anybody like ASAP to call to lead an applicant through the process? Ab.

03/14	Hey sec, I wouldn't say I ripped RJH a new one. I gave some pretty good information (if I say so myself) from the BLM's perspective on the subject he/she asked about, and I closed with two words of advice. Hardly a "a damn gospel on all of our opinions on what a terrible, anti-christ DUI person he/she is." And just so you understand my intent, it wasn't only for RJH - I meant that for all the firefighters that read this great site. Maybe, just maybe, some good-hearted but momentarily careless firefighter someday will remember what they read here and arrange for a designated driver. The world could be a better place. And just to further toot my own horn, here's a story. Some time back, I hired a person into a GS-5 fire job that had been fired from another fire job because of a DUI. I took on that person that I had never met because they came across well, and other people gave good recommendations. That person is now a GS-12 in aviation, and doing a hell of a job. So I don't feel the least bit bad about my recommending a DD to RJH (and to everyone that reads this page), because I think it's good advice and I've tried to make some fairly positive contributions. And when I go to rip someone a new one, it's never anywhere near as mild as what I wrote to RJH. ;^) BLM Bob
03/14	Hey "disgusted", When I read your e-mail I had to seriously doubt you are veteran. Anyone who has sacrificed years of their life to serve our country, especially in a time of war deserves preference in hiring for a government job. It is a sacrifice that a person cannot understand unless you've been there, which I cannot believe you have. I think you need to quit crying about it and do your best to get hired with the qualifications you have. If a vet gets the job over you, tough. I've heard plenty of stories about vets who were hired over someone else who had better qualifications. I also know of alot of people who's qualifications were just a bunch of words on paper and when it came time to perform they failed. So just live with it, the policy is not going to change. Signed-Already Hired
03/14	The SoCal SIT report is still normal. (I realize that doesn't do the rest of the world any good) www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/south/fwx/fwxral.txt Anybody try the individual Regions to see if they have their own like R5/South? Firelookouts
03/13	Brax, Had to reply to your question about how does california rate for GS8 engine captains. Couldn't agree more that the job is equally complex all over the country. The actual factor in the classification that made it rate out as an 8, was supervision. The 8's are on Type 3 engines which carry 5 people. With 7 day coverage that brings the total employees to 7. On the Type 4 engines and others there are only 3 people at a time (5 total employees). The fire community in california fought very hard to keep from having a different grade sturcture on different type engines. We all believe a captain is a captain and what makes the job complex is not the difference of 2 temporary employees. Apparently, among classifiers, grade level in the Forestry Technician series is more based on supervision than job complexity. The fire shop lost the battle in that one, but this go round may help change things for folks in other regions. I certainly see the potential for it. Just remember, we are all in this together and the last thing we want to do is pit different regions against one another. Have hope! firenwater Good clarification, firenwater. Another way to put it... The Type 3s carry 5 people but if they're on duty 7 days a week, two additional people are needed. FF do a staggered tour in order to have time off. In contrast, Type 3s that carry 5 FF for 5 days do not require staggered tours for the crew. Supervision is simpler. The Type 4s carry 3 people but if they're on duty 7 days a week, there must be two additional FF for the staggered tour. Supervising 5 people is the optimal number in the chain of command. Supervising more requires greater coordination -- and higher GS rating. It seems logical that all engine captains of Type 4 engines who supervise 5 people for 7 days (or 7 FF over the week) should be rated GS-8, regardless of their duty location whether in R5 or not. Here's another question. Why shouldn't the assistant engine captain also be rated GS-8? This person supervises the crew on the two days a week the captain is off (40%) and supervises whenever the captain leaves for training, conferences, and other duties. Probably most assistant engine captains have such supervisorial duties more than half the time. Ab.
03/13	Dear Ab, Just thought I would share good news with you for a change. I recieved a call today and accepted and offer for a 5 on one of the new Shot Crews. I thought for sure I was one who had slipped through the cracks. I'm pretty happy but I know also what lies ahead of me. I am sure it's going to be a