"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
||i think your web site is pertty cool. its got good pictuers an archives
but you should put a subject for employees of state or federal who have
problems with other employees or management. I work for state as a
wildland firefighter. this is my second season or was. so that would be
cool if you have a subject for that. if not thats cool
ADL (initials provided by Ab if you don't supply a moniker)
ADL-- Here's what Ab sez...
The way this site works is that fire people (state, fed, interface
city, volunteer, contractor, cooperator, foreign, US, employee,
management, etc) write in with gripes about management, coworkers,
"the system". They write in with questions, heads-up, safety
alerts, information, a story about a close call, taking issue with a story
about a close call, tributes to friends who died, interesting links and
topics, fire news, training guidelines, computer programs, and sometimes
to share a bit of themselves in other ways. Sometimes they
"vent" a little... or a lot... or repeatedly. Occasionally
parents of firefighters or firefighter's spouses seek info about their
loved ones. Firefighting and our jobs are stressful. Having us away from
home on fire assignment is stressful for our families. Ab sez, who ya
gonna talk to? Us, of course. (We only ask that you are 'somewhat civil'
because our kids may read the site and sometimes use it for research.)
The "subject" of the threads that interweave here to form
theysaid's ppe is entirely up to those who post at theysaid. OK,
occasionally an Ab has a button pushed and may go off on a rant. I have.
The point is, anyone can start a new thread or comment on an existing one.
Some who post here are experts in one area, some in another. Some are
wise, retired armchair commentators. Many who are not an Ab contribute in
their own ways with acronyms, jobs research, computer info, legal info,
lists of links, teaching materials or a question that calls forth new
development on the links page. A big THANK YOU to all of you who
make this site what it is by sharing yourselves. Ab would never ask for
help, but contributions are appreciated. Hopefully ADL, you will share
your beef, your info, your celebration, your story, your photo, or
something of yourself in a way that no one has done before. We are a fire
community... a family or network of individuals having varied
perspectives, each of which is important. We also provide a voice for
those who might not otherwise have one. We "Abs" (short for
"Abercrombie" our "original Ab") provide the forum.
You posters and contributors do most of the work and create the community.
Lurkers get to share in that as well... Hats off to you all.
So you see, ADL, you have contributed already by writing in your
question/suggestion/comment. We hope you do it again... And choose a
Ab. (but... not the "original" main-man kick-a** Ab, premier
groundpound'r and still firefight'r, our general and mentor and certainly
wise, but not in an armchair yet!)
Attached are two data dictionaries that we use in all of our Trimble
GPS units. Fireinv.ddf is used in fire investigations and fire.ddf is the
main one used to map fires. It is being used nationally and fits all of
the data requirements for NIFC reports and for GIS attributing.
Firepup21, check your e-mail. Ab.
I have read the various diatribes by one of the Minnesota posters below
and feel compelled to reply to some of his charges. I happen to work for
the MN DNR as a field forester. In USFS lingo, I would be an FMO.
Fire season in Minnesota is in the spring, usually just April and May.
The firefighting force is comprised of full time Forestry employees (that
number has been dwindling for the past 15 years) augmented by Smokechasers
(casuals or AD's in USFS lingo). Smokechasers are hired and paid to attend
S-130, S-190, and I-100 before they can even smell a smoke. To work
suppression for the state of MN, they have to meet the Moderate physical
standard (score of 40). Smokechaser ranks are filled with people just who
happen to have spring time available. They tend to spend the rest of the
year as truckers, construction workers, farmers, resorters, etc. They also
tend to like a little adrenaline. A MN Smokechaser has at best a two month
job. Its an interlude, not a living.
Agency sponsored fire training in MN has been a little like a snake
swallowing a very large egg the past few years. Since 1993, the system has
been choked with people working their way through various training classes
to meet the requirements for various ICS task books. And yes, full time
agency people usually get preference in that system. You know the odds are
good that they will be available next fire season, the Smokechasers may
not be. MN trains its Smokechasers for local use first, in state off unit
assignments second, and out of state assignments last. That said, the
ratio of smokechasers to agency folks being sent to Fire classes from my
agency office is currently about 2:1.
People can work their way into nearly any ICS jobs they want to (as
long as the training MN is paying for is of benefit to MN). Besides crew
and engine jobs, MN has Smokechasers qualified for a variety of overhead
positions. I'll send people to as much training as they can stand, it only
makes them more talented and valuable to me. If they jump ship and go to
work for another fire agency that offers a longer season, higher pay, and
bennies, good for them. I wish them well.
After the MN fire season ends, Smokechasers can spend as much time as
they want on out of state assignments. Only about 1/3 of the smokechasers
that work in this area are interested in out of state fire assignments.
Those people are Red Carded (after meeting all requirements of the 310-1).
When these folks leave the state, they become USFS AD employees. The folks
that aren't interested in out of state work don't get Red Cards.
I have no doubt that Mr. Linscott is correct that there are 800
smokechasers on the MN rolls considered active. I have 30+ people on my
list locally. Most are firefighters, the balance work in dispatch,
detection, and support functions. Several of these people only work a few
days a year. Of these 30, I would be hard pressed to come up with more
than a handful for a fall fire, they are busy with other jobs then. The
fire he mentioned that was a problem staffing was in late October of last
year. It happened just before the MN deer season (nearly a sacred event
for most MN outdoorsy types). The Smokechasers that weren't working at
other jobs has spent much of the summer working on fires in the west. I
suspect they were ready for a break and wanted to be sure to bw ome before
opening day of deer season. I spent a week on that fire myself and I know
it interfered with my preseason scouting and plans.......
Regarding contractors operating out of state, my info (from annual fire
planning meeting notes) is that effective this year, agencies won't red
card contractors. Contractors wishing to be available for out of state use
will need to contract with the USFS. They won't be issued a Red Card, but
will need to meet Red Card standards for the positions (ENGB, FFT2, etc)
by presenting evidence of required training and completed task books, etc.
There, I feel better now....................
One of those "horrible" Minnesota DNR guys
||Ab and All
Did you ever have one of those weeks? Our engine boss just decided that
he wanted out of the business. Would have helped if he had decided that a
few months ago. If there are any qualified and carded people out there who
are still looking for the right place to be this season, give us a call.
Specialized Transport and Fire Services
||G'day Mates- I was going to suggest these two links from downunder to
add to your worldwide collection and Byron's post goosed me into action:
on bushfire with some nice photos of Aussie fires and some good links.
another good fire website from Australia.
A list of links of organizations that research Bushfires:
There may be other good worldwide links that Australian readers could
With the way things are burning already in the States, maybe some of us
will be over to help out soon.
Cheers and good luck Byron-
They look good. Thanks. I'll put them on the links page this morning
(morning for us anyway). Ab.
||Had a start at 8:30 am yesterday (5/30/01) went to 75 - 100 acres quick,
looks like it is contained now. Had several smaller fires in the county.
Lots of action and things kinda got strapped in the afternoon, some people
were stressing (guys with all the do hickes on their collars, mainly).
Looks like another hot dry day in Northern California. Kinda reminds me of
the end of the 1987 summer, only thing is this isn't even summer yet. All
you folks in the east, if you haven't been to California this could be
||Readers, we usually don't post messages from kids, but I'm hoping at
least one firefigher from Australia is reading and might have some info
for young Byron. Ab.
Hi my name is Byron and I am in year 6 and live in Australia. I am
doing a project on bushfires and was hoping that you could help me by
suggesting some other web sites that I could find some more information
about bushfires. I was also hoping you could find out how bushfires are
created, what conditions are best suited for bushfires, how they are
trigged and grow so large and for you have lots of stories which are in
America states I was wondering if you could find some stories which
THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!
I am looking for anyone out there who might be using Trimble
GeoExplorer 3 GPS units for mapping fires. I work on a helitack crew in
Utah and we just acquired one to use this season on our helicopter. If you
are familiar with these units, it is necessary to use a "data
dictionary" when logging data. I am wondering if anyone out there has
created a wildfire related data dictionary that you would be willing to
share. Our ship comes on contract June 1 and I am a little crunched for
time at the moment for creating my own.
I also want to comment on how cool I think the "current
wildlandfire news" link is. I've been checking it out regularly since
you put it up and it has been kinda fun to come home in the evening and
read up on what's going on in other regions etc. Also getting a chuckle at
the media hype on how this year "may potentially be the most
disasterous fire season yet." Compared to what, I ask? In acres
burned, structures lost, dollars spent?? Isn't the fact that we have
created our own mess over the past 100 years the real disaster? I say
bring it on, set the woods aflame, we can't seem to get the acres lit that
are really screaming for it, so let mother nature do her job when the
lightning strikes. God knows we've got the manpower and equipment to
protect the structures. At last count there will be 9 exclusive use
helicopters in Utah alone, that's up from 3 last year! I think us folks
out here in the west need to take note of the prescribed burn acreages in
the southeast this year. (yes, I realize you may think I am comparing
apples and oranges), but it is interesting nonetheless. I'd like to hear
some discussion on what different regions have in place for Fire Use plans
this season, if any. (You know the Wildfire for Resource Benefit deal, or
whatever they are calling it nowadays, PNF) Anyone? Anyone?
As of todays sit report for prescribed fire acres the southern area =
769466 acres, with eastern in second with 87291 acres and the Western
great basin bringing up the rear with a whopping 786 acres.
Thanks Ab, you (you guys) are the best,
||here I am reading the front page of the Progressive this morning and to
read this B.S. from B.J. Pearson regarding how he thinks that all the
private property owners and the county sups should be told about the the
Forest Service plans on Fuel Suppression by June 5th. Hasn't anybody
slapped him upside his head yet? There is a fire burning you jerk!! It
goes on to say and a quote by him stating that "We need a firmer
stand, We know that the FOrest Service --- if left to their own devices---
will do nothing." It says that in his ideal situation, the
supervisors would emulate the New Mexico legislature and take over the
Forest Service lands because of the threat of catastrophic wildfires..
It seems as if Dave is right, BJ is a Real Estate agent first and a
politician second and doesn't give a rat's behind who he hurts to get what
he wants. He is only looking at the potential for a money maker golf
course and isn't looking at the whole picture. Obivously, Mr. Pearson has
got a bug up his butt about some of the U.S. Forest Service folks he may
have known in the past and has drawn an overall opinion about them all.. I
think if this fight continues and BJ gets what he wants, the fires are
going to go to hell, they'll call the USFS and CDF and BLM to come put out
the flames and then he'll stand back and say we did it all wrong again...
And then the people who's homes have burned up, will have to blame
somebody too and he will just point them the way he wants...
Sorry to go on a rant, but BJ is full of B.S. He doesn't know what he's
talking about. Clear cutting the forest is not the answer.. He needs to
shut up and let the folks who know what they are doing continue to do what
they are doing. It takes years for a Forest to become safe from wildland
fires. It doesn't happen overnight...
||Hi Ab, and all.
I'm having a problem with the hiring process. (Join the club) I'm over
40 with many years of prior service in primary fire positions (federal).
Enough years in fact that counting my ACTUAL time on the job, I come in
However, I just got off the phone with a USFS personnel officer. She
told me that If a person applied by the end of the first round, January
19, 2001, that ALL prior service counts towards MEA. However, If one
applied after that, only service prior to 1986 counts towards retirement.
Ever hear of anything so crazy?
This isn't the first time I've run up against this. You can talk to 100
personnel officers and never get the same answers.
Now I'm not condemning all personnel people. As I'm sure there are many
that work their tails off and are very diligent. Although I have a problem
with the accepted incompetence of this system.
For example, any applicant over 35 must prove where and when they
worked for the federal government. Doesn't the dang government keep
records? I guess that means I should print up a couple of bogus personel
action statements and nobody would be any the wiser. I'm not advocating
this, Just pointing out that it would be easy to do.
We've all got jobs to do and they aren't always easy. But the people
running this hiring system aren't doing their jobs. They work for the
people of the united states. If they aren't performing, they need to be
replaced. "That's the way it is" Doesn't cut it anymore. We
don't have to put up with it.
They are also opening themselves up to a ton of legal action.
Thank you for allowing me to vent.
Now, Does anyone out there know where I might get a straight answer on
this? I didn't find anything on it on the FAQ page. OPM website doesn't
address it, and forget about calling. Nobody ever answers the phone.
-Mad as hell and not going to take it anymore-
||Hey Fire Academy Guy:
Here's the url for the engine requirements that Hickman listed. I found
them in the National Interagency Mobilization
Guide (pdf), April 2001, page 307. The guide is in pdf format (about
2000K large!), requires Adobe Acrobat and took about 8-10 min to
download on my computer. In my opinion, it's logical to have this long
and complex a book in pdf. (Can't say the same for the sit report. Thanks
for the html archive link, Ab.) Anyway, it's great NIFC has the mob guide
OBTW, you can search on a keyword(s) within the document. Simply hold
down the control key on your computer and hit the F (for find). Type in
the keyword. The word "engines" occurs almost every page so the
table of contents is better for finding this, but for finding other
things, it works great. No "Type 4 Brush Units" in there
Please take care, Everyone -
||Ab, here are some photos from the Bulger Cr Incident here on the Burns
Interagency Fire Zone. 93 acres in the trees, pretty early.
Be safe firefighters,
Nice evening/night fire photos. I put them on the Fire
5 Page. Ab.
I recently received a question regarding information on a post to
"They Said It" regarding the possability that a MN contractor
had been using firefighters with no red cards on federal fires.
I would really like to know which contractor this was so I can
investigate further. Can anyone help me?
Below is my response to the question regarding uncarded firefighters
Nationally, red card verification has been very lax for as long as I
can remember. Red cards can be made up from "whole cloth" by the
issuing authority with no substance behind them whatsoever. Simply put no
one checks to verify that red cards are legitimate of that the info on
them is correct after they have been issued. For several years the MN DNR
was so desperately short of legitimately carded engine personnel that they
could not send the millions of dollars of interface engines to federal
fires and so recoup much of the tax dollars spent on them. Since they had
represented to the legislatures of MN that they would be able to recoup a
substantial amount of the funds appropriated to purchase them originally,
the MN DNR was in an embarrassing position. They had for years neglected
to provide enough opportunities for firefighters to actually get the
required classes and training to legitimately red card those
qualifications to the folks that manned their engines. Most of these folks
were casual firefighters or in MN DNR lingo "emergency
firefighters/intermittent" as the MN DNR had/has been downsizing for
the past 15-20 years and, in doing so, had laid off most of the full time
employees who were qualified to fight fire... technicians mostly. The
classes that were offered in MN were mostly filled with full time
employees of the DNR since they were trying to fill this gap.
Unfortunately, these full time employees were unable to take the time off
from their regular duties for out of state fire duty since their work load
had increased substantially when the technicians were laid off.
Red cards are only required for MN casuals in MN when on federal fires
after the initial 24 hours. If they were required for all MN firefighters
MN would essentially be without adequate wildfire suppression capabilities
The proper solution would have been to provide classes to the
"emergency firefighters/intermittent" that they wanted to run
the equipment on out of state fires. These "casuals" had been
begging for classes for years so that they could "advance" in
Fire but the DNR was fearful that with legitimate qualifications these
properly trained "casuals" (who, by the way did have lots of
practical experience running this equipment) would leave the intermittent
employ of the MN DNR for "blacker pastures" due to the horrible
manner in which they were treated by the DNR on a regular basis. They
were, of course, quite correct, as the mass exodus of MN firefighters has
proved over the past few years. The short term solution was to issue red
cards to technically unqualified casuals with qualifications printed on
them for which there had been none of the required classes or training.
The short term solution, of course, became the long term solution as it
was cheap and easy.
I was one of the "instant engine bosses" about 6 years ago...
and despite my best efforts could not get the classes or task book to
actually qualify as an engine boss. The DNR did not want to admit this
fraud and so would not help me or any of the others in my situation get
class time. It is one of the dangerous and wrong things that happen when
you have someone who has absolutely no fire experience running a state
fire suppression program. I was eventually able to get the classes on my
I postulate that the MN contractor (and I really would like to know
which one) hired these casuals based on the fact that they had the proper
qualifications on their red cards the previous year... and they don't
normally disappear once you have them. The DNR was then faced with either
owning up to their fraud and facing the consequences, or not. They chose
not to issue red cards for those individuals who decided to work for
private contractors and, thereby at least temporarily, escape culpability
for their previous actions. Of course since in MN there is no other
issuing authority, those firefighters were screwed, since without a red
card they could not work as firefighters and the contractor was screwed as
They both probably would have a very good chance of winning a suit if
it were ever brought. They should not have to since it is a safety issue
and the Feds should investigate and prosecute such fraud. Some ass needs
kicking at the state level to prevent this from becomming more widespread.
The feds might also want to be more vigilent although in all fairness when
there is a fire, it is not the time to be checking red cards and once the
fire is out no one cares anymore. In any case State
"cooperators" should not be scamming the feds and getting away
I don't know why they were allowed to work on federal fires.. it would
seem that there is a failure to verify not only that an individuals red
card qualifications are legitimate but that an individual has a red card
at all. In all fairness the Minnesota DNR may have been
"shmoozing" any official that contacted them to check red card
status for individuals on a fire by saying something to the effect that
"they are in the mail".
It's easier, and it's harder than you think. Surveying is a measure of
land on a horizontal plane and does not consider surface area. Visualize a
square mile of flat land with a large peak centered in it. The land base
is still 640 acres by surveyed measure.....yet the surface area is
significantly larger. Got that?
Now, compound your problem by trying to use that surveyed measure to
determine how much retardent or foam you need to apply......and oops! You
are back to being concerned about surface area rather than surveyed area.
Are we having fun yet?
Old Fire Guy
||In Response to Hickman's Engine Type descriptions,
He is correct in the Engine Type Profile that is used today, except to
say that in California only Types 1-4 are used. But I want to share a
argument that occured during a recent conference in Sacramento regarding
A discussion was held regarding engine typing at an interface fire in
Region 5 that resulted in a low structure loss but a high dollar loss
(Three structures with more than $1 Million in damages). During the
discussion questions were asked what is the differences between a Type 1
Structure Engine and a Type 2 Structure engine.
First, Type 1 and 2 are the only designators for structural fire
apparatus. Types 3-7 are exclusively wildland engines, but there are a few
what are considered Type 1/Type 3 Interface engines that have the manpower
and pumping capacity of a structure engine but the off-road and
pump-&-roll capacity of a wildland engine (For further info on these
engines look at the Pierce Fire Apparatus Company's CDF Model 25 Engine).
Second, when you compare the written engine type classifications to
what almost all Type 2 engine are built up to, you'll find that the only
true difference between Type 1 and 2 engine are four firefighters vs.
three firefighters. Type 2 engines are generally built with 1000GPM+
pumps, 500+Gallon Tanks, and carry the same or more hose than Type 1
Third, the only real difference is that the Type 1 engine has one more
firefighter, and the reason for that is solely the number of firefighters
that fit in the cab. Most Type 1 engines have a custom cab that can hold
4-8 firefighters, whereas most Type 2 engines have a commercial cab that
can only hold three firefighters.
Fourth, most Type 2s can go off road with the commercial chassis, but
Type 1 engines with custom chassis's are too heavy or bulky to go off
road. CDF experimented with a wildland engine body on a Spartan Chassis
and the firefighters found that the thing sucked when leaving the
pavement. The nickname for these engines were "Battlestar:
Fifth, many Type 2 engines, in California, are equipped with almost the
same amount of wildland hose that a Type 3 engine carries. Many volunteers
in the state use the Type 2 engines when they don't have the luxury of
having a very expensive Type 1 or a secondary Type 3 engine. In remote
areas may need to be self-sufficient for 30 minutes or more before the
next in resources arrive. I can only speak for myself and volunteers in my
area, but volunteer engines in my old county fire department wanted to be
better prepared to handle a wildland fire, so they loaded up on
1-1/2" and 1", more so than what the career Type 2 engines did.
This met with a lot of resistance from the paid battalion chiefs, but in
one summer where for a solid month volunteer engines provided most of the
suppression forces in 1992, attitudes changed.
Type 2 engines with the properly trained and experienced people, and
proper equipment can do the jobs of structural, interface, and wildland
operations. Most Type 2s can get back in the areas that a Type 3 can, and
are great for pumping those long and/or uphill hoselays.
||Perhaps you can help me. I have a question. The other day I was web
surfing, helping my nephew with a school project designed to introduce
kids to searching the internet. He wanted firefighter that fights forest
fires. I'm not the sharpest at this stuff. But I did find the National
site. He watched and listened to the fire fighter and got excited to
search further. He hit some links including "they said it".
(This is a very neat site!) Then he tried the link to the Daily Fire
Report http://www.nifc.gov/news/sitreprt.phpl. There was an error message
404 on a white page. Do you know where he can get the Daily Fire Report so
he can finish his assignment? They say it's not put up until fire season.
Is it not fire season yet?
It is definitely fire season. NIFC no longer does the national fire
situation report (Daily Fire Report) in html form. Evidently they do not
provide a forwarding link to their pdf version sitreport, either. Your
nephew can find the Daily Fire Report in html by about 0845 every morning
on our links page under "news". NIFC archives it early (don't
ask me why) and that's how we get it. You can get the report earlier in
pdf format but need adobe acrobat to download that. The archived report is
up now -- 0645. That's early. (To get the archived report, click the fire
"Link" bar at the top of the page. It is the second link on the
page. The pdf version is the third link.) Good luck. Ab.
||This evening's Devil Fire stats update (Susanville CA) from CDF: www.fire.ca.gov/cdf_incidents/devil/incident.php
||Okay, this question involves both the Planning and Operational lurkers
As an operational type myself, I had always held that 4840 square yards
of surface area constituted an acre of land. Enter the Situation Unit
Leader world (trained this year in R-5) and I find that this number has to
be adjusted for slope. In other words, on near vertical topography, even
though 4840 square yards have burned on the slope, the true acreage would
only be that of the perimeter on a flat map, This would mean that the fire
could be much less than an acre. If you find the confusing, think of a
fire spreading up the face of Yosemite's Half Dome (yea I know, no
vegetation and its in a National Park). The surface area of the vertical
face equals thousands of square yards yet the fire would only map out to a
couple acres once it reaches the top and goes out.
Is it just me looking like an idiot, or are there other ICs or Ops
folks who have made the mistake I have and thought that a flaming square
mile of canyon wall equaled 640 acres. Based on this I've spent the better
part a day walking around a 100 acre fire that had 2000' of altitude gain.
||Found it once, but lost it, that link to different engine types.
However, for Fire Academy Curriculum Coordinator, here's a kind of a short
discription of each class of engines which the Forest Service Recgonizes:
Minimum Standard for Types:
Other equipment is also listed as largest to smallest; Tractors/Dozers
Types 1-6, Water Tenders (mobil water supply units), Helicopters, and Air
Tankers, are typed 1-4
- Type 1 - (Usually a Class A engine in Structural Fire Fighting) Pump
1000 gpm, 400 gal/tank, 1200 ft. 2 1/2" hose, 400 ft. 1 1/2
" hose, 200 ft. 1" hose, 20 feet of ladder, 500 gpm Master
Stream, and Minimum 4 people.
- Type 2 - 500 gpm, 400 gal/tank, 1000 ft. 2 1/2", 500 ft. 1
1/2", 300 ft. 1", 20 feet of ladder, and Min. 3 people.
- Type 3 - 120 gpm, 500 gal/tank, 1000 ft. 1 1/2" hose, 800 ft.
1", and Min. 3 people.
- Type 4 - 70 gpm, 750 gal/tank, 300 ft. 1 1/2", 300 ft. 1",
and Min. 3 people.
- Type 5 - 50 gpm, 500 gal/tank, 300 ft. 1 1/2", 300 ft 1",
and Min. 3 people.
- Type 6 - 50 gpm, 200 gal/tank, 300 ft 1 1/2", 300 ft 1 ",
and Min. 2 people.
- Type 7 - 20 gpm, 125 gal/tank, 200 ft 1 1/2", 200 ft 1",
and Min. 2 people.
- by adding an "x" to the type indicates all-wheel drive
engines. (Type 6x, etc.)
PS. OOPs, I may have messed up on the required ladders. If someone had
a fireline handbook. Check ladders required on Type 1 and 2's may require
48 feet of ladders. (Another difference between Structural and Wildland
requirments. NFPA 1901 Standards for Structural only require a 24'
extension and a 12' to 16' roof ladder. I think an attic ladder is
optional, just another sign of getting old....I furget!)
I know, Ab, I'm suppost to be out of town....I'm out-a-here..
Thanks for taking the time. Type 1 and 2 Engines require only 20
feet of ladder according to the NWCG Fireline Handbook. Have a good one
Hickman. You be safe. Ab.
||Hate to bother,
Can you tell me where a list of all the equipment designations would be
on the web, example "what is a type 4 brush unit". We are doing
some research and haven't been able to locate such an animal.
Fire Academy Curriculum Coordinator
||Here's a great job post from the BLM down Bakersfield CA way. I just
had to cross-post it! Jobs, Series 462 and 455 are up. Ab.
Now this is an opportunity you don't run across all the time. Are
you a heavy equipment operator that wants to get more involved in fire
management? Take a look at this:
Engineering Equipment Operator Leader (Fire Dozer)
Open Period: 05/22/2001 - 06/19/2001
Series/Grade: WL-5716-10/10, $18.12 to $21.15 per hour.
Announcement Number: CA-01-150SM-DEU
BLM, BAKERSFIELD, CA
REMARKS: Position requires prior wildland fire bulldozer experience.
Here is the link to USAJOBS: www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/IU2202.php
All you Bakersfield alumni out there, know anyone that can try to fill
The National Fire Academy (NFA) is currently seeking individuals to
serve as contract instructors for three, 2-day courses:
The webpage is as follows: USFA
-- NFA Issues In-Service Training Program
- "Introduction to Wildland and Wildland/Urban Interface
Firefighting for the Structural Company Officer"
- "Command and Control of Wildland/Urban Interface Fire
Operations for the Structural Chief Officer"
- "Cooperative Leadership Issues in Wildland/Urban
||Sit report for
yesterday and today are up. Click on the top archived NICC Incident
Check out the WLF news
page. In addition to the US fire news, there's a report that 1200 were
evacuated yesterday in Alberta (Alta), Canada.
||Dear Disgusted in R3,
The ASAP process has been a trial and error situation this year. Maybe
even a Watch Out situation? On Round 3 I was rated by Boise as a GS-5
Dispatcher. Last week someone from Colorado called to offer me an 18/8
position as a 5. Well, I'm currently a GS-9, Permanent Full Time, with the
FS so I declined. He said they had been finding that a lot when calling
the folks on their list. Then on Friday I got a letter from the NPS saying
that I had qualified and made the cert. for a GS-11/12 Fire Communications
and Education Specialist. That was through an individual announcement, not
the ASAP process. So go figure.
Good luck all.
||WOW, fire season is upon us...
and ca fires
Reno kolo.com news
||Hey, NV FIRE ANIMIAL,
How in the heck did you guys bend the hose box on the front of the
engine? Please tell me that you didnt let Dave drivre it!
Its started here in northern nevada...the winds went crazy here and the
Warrior fire went to 6k... woohoo! looks like I will be able to afford the
toys that my wife so desperately wants.... Be safe out there, all!
i am a dept of the army firefighter. last year i was in new mexico and
came across some folks that were working for a pvt contractor out of minn.
i was asking them about minn and they told me none of them had red cards
on them due to the state dnr not issuing them out. now, i do know that you
are not able to be on fires with out having a red card on you.. how did
they get on any fires?.. they where on many different fires in new mex and
can anyone explain this?..
I know that this is probably old news to most folks, but check out what
is going on down in Fla. Last estimate I heard was around 15,000 acres.
With only 35% containment. Got several friends from here in Texas that are
down there already. NOAA imagery shows just what is going on.
Stay safe, Keith
Another fire in Canada, Quebec this time:
More on the Alberta fire:
We lost two good people on Fri. when a light plane helping in the
firefighting effort went down. Our prayers are with the families.
||Please explain the ASAP process to me......
I have been told that the ranking as eligible and highly qualified are
done at the individual forest level.
I have also been told that these rankings come from Boise and the
individual forests have no role whatsoever.
Does it not make sense if statement # 2 is correct that an individual
should be on ever forest she/he selected at the same level of
Why are individuals who were offered and accepted positions in round 1
and 2, being offered positions in rouond 3 and on forests they did not
How can certain positions remain vacant for all three rounds? Are
Forests Holding jobs for individuals who don't rate out yet, ie
apprentices who have yet to convert? wasn't there a law suit several years
ago that ended in an upgrade academy?
How can an individual who does not meet the minimum quals for a
position be offered a job? Do they not have to meet the quals lined out in
the position description, or does time in grade cut it?
Disgusted in R-3
||The last two days I have had difficulty loading the pdf file for the
National Fire Report. I usually use a T1 line at work and it pops up real
fast but over the weekend I use my home machine and man is it slow loading
that pdf file. After reading the fire report I noticed that they don't
have the Mendocino Forest latest burn on the report, news last night had
it at 150 acres.
Well, got to go and finish up the clearing and prep around the old home
stead, man I would hate to hear from the other guys that I didn't have my
house fire safe.
Thanks to all those that have given in defense of our great nation,
both foreign and domestic in all kinds of uniforms. Go with God.
yes we men do love our toys !!!! bigger the better. my wife cringes
every time fire season comes around. during the winter, i go through all
my catalogs with a gleam in my eyes. my wife will say " what in the
hell are you going to get this year?? " . its great, i give her all
these reasons for wanting a certain thing and she tries to talk me out of
it. she will say," cant you do without that??? it cost so much !!
" but in the end, i usually get what i want ! i do love the
conversations about it. its better then pillow talk !!
on a serious note, i hope we all take a minute to think about all of
our brother and sister fire fighters who have fallen. not just wildland
fire fighters but all fire fighters, we all face the red devil in our own
special arena and when one of us falls it effects everyone. a friend of
mine in nj lost a friend to a heart attack while at a structural fire. it
can happen to anyone of us. be safe out there.
i know what you mean. ever since the klamath fire in northern
california, my husband has been asking "where's the money?"..
you know men.. ain't they all like that? he wants some new tool.. <:-)
yep, i think all firefighter spouses are feeling another summer of
separation coming on and are trying to look at whatever they can call the
marie from r4
You should add the Canadian Forest Service sit report to your list of
links under worldwide. It will be a useful link this fire season.
Thanks. I did. Readers, If you look under Alberta and then for
wildfires in the news, you find this page http://envweb.env.gov.ab.ca/env/forests/fpd/
about the big one near Chisholm. Interesting reading. An interesting site
||hey cdf cap !
i am a ndf crew sup myself. the packs we use are pretty much the same
as everyone elses. i believe the material is the same from pack to pack. i
bought my own pack because i didnt like how the ndf pack felt on me. its a
personel choice. as far as ppe, i wear what everyone else wears. that crap
that my crew wears leaves something to be desired. its from you folks.
some of it is in good shape but most of it is the pits and i wouldnt wear
it if my life depended on it. i can see why you got rid of it. but then
again we dont have the budget that you folks do. one of these days, the
ppe my crew uses will bite ndf in the ass. i hope i dont go down with the
well i have been on 2 fires and my wife is wondering where the money is
( aint all women like that ??? just kidding ladies :) everyone be safe. it
could be a busy season here in nevada. and ec, got you figured out buddy
!!! got to go water the grass !!!
||Canada is very dry for this early in the season. Big fire burning north
of Idaho and Montana in Alberta, Canada. One story here in the CBC
and another from the Red
As far as I'm concerned the FS outta give Plumas County the Federal
land within it's boundaries. Then they wouldn't have to put up with the
-ologists and NEPA , then they outta put ol' BJ Pearson in charge of it.
I'm sure he could develop a plan to subdivide and build golf courses,
after all he is a real estate agent. And believe me he is a real estate
agent first and a real politician second.
Beer in hand and tongue in cheek,
looks like fire season is definately here! here's some new pictures for
your site: this engine one, and brush one, operated by Nevada Division of
Forestry station one on Mt. Charleston nv.
nv. fire animal Tim
Thanks, I posted them on the engines2
page along with some engines on the Franklin Fire. With all that's burning
in NV, got any with flames behind them? Also put up a photo on the crew3
||Do you ever have support dispatching jobs listed on this site? can you
recommend a good site to find dispatching jobs? Muchas Gracias!
||Why Does R-8 Still Have The Good Mud (ie, F, The True F). Also Why Did
The Feds Drop It?. Sounds Like A Political Nightmare Where They Drop The
Red! I Hope The Law Suits Dont Make My Taxes Go Up!!!!!!!!!
||CDF has banned all line gear with the exception of the yellow GSA stuff.
This includes gear like Eagle Gear, etc...
I would like to start a serious debate here among fire professionals as
to why a decision like this might be unwise.
The basic premise of the CDF management is that the GSA yellow line
packs performed better under some kind of a flame impingement test.
I was under the impression that all of the line gear, regardless of
manufacturer, was constructed of basically the same material? Is this the
I would like to see a dialog started here on this subject. If further
info is needed, please advise.
What are the pros and cons of this gear compared to other privately
What do most hot shots use for line gear and why?
CDF Crew Cap
||Here's the most recent Safety Advisory from NWCG -
FROM : National Wildfire Coordinating Group
REPLY TO : NWCG@nifc.gov
DATE : 05/24/2001
SUBJECT : SAFETY ADVISORY : Firefighter Personal Hygiene
Last year on a single wildland fire incident, 200 firefighters were
exposed to a viral agent, which resulted in the hospitalization of many
for severe dehydration.
The state Health Department report concluded "that due to the lack
of available and consistent handwashing, it is probable that large tubs
containing an ice slurry to hold bottled water, sports drinks, juice and
canned sodas became contaminated by the unwashed hands of ill
This outbreak of illness occurred prior to the takeover by an incident
management team. Thus it is a reminder for firefighters to wash their
hands before eating or drinking at all stages of an incident. Firefighters
are also encouraged to carry instant hand sanitizers since soap and water
are not always available.
I read your message about the upcoming deadline for CA temporary
I really HATE to disagree with you, Ab because you are always so
profound in your research. But, I want to correct you one this one little
The vacancy announcement for ALL temporary fire positions does not
expire until 11/30/2001. This is a NATIONAL vacancy announcement,
therefore, it's not supposed to expire until the end of November, and will
expire NATIONWIDE, not just in California.
I looked at the "jobs" page, and it looks to me like my
understanding of the closing date for temporary jobs is accurate. Forests
may have filled all their temporary positions (at this point in time), but
I guarantee that jobs will open up during the summer that will need to be
filled. So KEEP THOSE APPLICATIONS COMING IN. Don't give up!
Thanks for allowing me to disagree with you this one time, Ab...
You're right of course, @. Thanks for the clarification. We've been
getting a lot of questions from students who want summer jobs only. They
were the ones I was thinking of. I'll go back and correct my post. I
agree: everyone who can, keep those applications coming in. Ab.
I never put anything together in PPT for unit 10 (haz-mat), 12 (fire
investigation), 13 (cultural resources) or unit 0. When I (and I use the I
term loosely) put this together it was intended as something of a starter
set. That is, something that would cover most aspects of 130 & 190 but
was left generic enough for people to amend to their styles and geographic
I dont know what to say about the double units 5 & 6. I dont think
I submitted it that way, but its possible I guess.
The origional versions are long since morphed into what I use now,
which is tailored greatly toward my geogarphic area.
Sorry I couldnt be of more help.
||Re Dispatcher Training
If you go to the Western Great Basin site they have the new aviation
dispatcher training at the site. We will shortly be posting a variety of
programs on the California training web site.
||People were called out yesterday to fight fire in NV. Here's one story:
||Thank you for providing a "readable" and reliable link to NIFC
Wildland firefighter mom
You're very welcome. Ab.
You may not remember me; but a few years ago I came to you and was
pissed off at MN because we weren't getting released. Told you I wanted to
get on a shot crew, and the MN thing wasn't happening.
Well, I left. And my fire career couldn't be better! Oh yeah, I return
to MN in the winter (still haven't figured out why yet) and love it. But
MN-DNR-Forestry -- they spend 90% of their damn training on the perm
foresters who don't want anytihng to do with fires -- they like planting
Aspens. Anyway, I work the spring (if needed) and fall (if needed) on a
casual basis but I would like to offer this...
IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT FIRE, AND LIVE IN MINNESOTA, AND HAVE THE
MEANS ----- LEAVE THE STATE......MOVE....FAST....
If anyone needs a place to stay, or help with the job process, let me
know. I've been there, and am more than willing to help anyone out.
I downloaded powerpoint S130 from the Programs Page. It didn't have
units 10, 12 and if we don't count U0 - I don't have U13. There were two
units 5 and two units 6. Does anyone have the missing units?
Thanks for your help. Any dispatcher training info links you know of -
I'd appreciate those too.
We only have what is there. (I do have some other programs on CD.)
Pulaski, do you have any others? Hickman? Anyone have any dispatcher
training units or know of any links? (I do have some other programs not
yet on the site but none are dispatcher training.) Ab.
||I added photos of the Grand Ronde engine, engine crew, and Hawaii
logos to Engines2,
Crew3 and Logo4
pages. Click the captions under the pics to get the descriptive details on
the images. Thanks for the photos. (I still have more to do.) Have a safe
Thanks for the copies of the articles. Gosh, maybe the FS should
consider this option. Let Plumas County pick up the tab for the EA and all
the rest of the paper work that goes along with any Forest project!
Stu (ex-Plumas County resident)
I totally agree 100% with what Bear is saying. He hit that one right on
the head. It took me a day to get the dates and articles I am talking
about and even a couple Letters to the editor in this week's edition. Here
it goes: the first article I read that set me seeking some responses was
printed in the Chester Progressive May 16, 2001 edition. On the Front
page, page 8B editorial and if you look, u will see one of their results
of a Public Poll on 9B.
Also there was another article printed in the Chester Progressive in
this week's paper May 23, 2001 page 9B there is a Letter to the Editor or
two that is kind of disgusting if you ask me. I couldn't have put it
better Bear for my same feelings towards Supervisor BJ Pearson. Wonder who
he will call when his forest starts burning and wonder if he will be
willing to foot the bill.
I strongly urge ppl to speak up and write a Letter to the Editor.
Got a mailing address? Hey Bear! Ab.
||The jobs, series
462 and 455 pages are updated. Today is the last day to apply for seasonal
firefighter positions on the Los Padres National Forest (CA) (see jobs
page toward the middle).
Students who want summer work only, May 31 is going to be the last day
to apply for many seasonal temp ff positions this current go-round.
Students, if you want a temp firefighting job, best get on it! The rest of
you wannabees, keep on applying. Fed hiring will go on through November.
Heck, it's already been burning in norCal, Nevada, elsewhere in the west
and we're still hiring and training!
Also updated the links page. To the state
section I added Arizona, Alaska, one-o-the Carolinas and Georgia.
Thanks adftr, cowboy-bob, and longtorch for the links. I added the new
Canadian link to the worldwide
section. Good un. Any others? Don't forget to check out the National
Fire Situation Report or sit
report in html. Thanks to all for the great input. Send in any more
state and worldwide links if you have them.
||Stuck in MN.
The reason that "the powers that be" in MN Forestry are not
allowing "regular employees" to go on out of state fires is that
they have lost their "casuals" and are covering their ass. Due
to their mismanagement and abuse of their casual firefighters they have
placed MN at a high risk of catastrophic wildfires. The Minnesota Wildland
Firefighters' Association for years tried to warn "the powers that
be" that this was going to happen unless they stopped treating their
casuals like linemeat. We got very little support from most of the regular
employees while we were doing this.
Three years ago we testified before the MN legislature that a severe
shortage of casuals was developing due to mismanagement by "the
powers that be" and suggested altering legislation to limit or
reverse the damage. This year we testified that the damage was done and a
program needed to be implemented to rebuild MNs wildfire fighting
capability. We also put in place a paper trail to all those responsible
for ignoring our warnings from the Legislature to the Governors Office so
that when/if the catastrophic fires occur they can be held responsible.
Currently although MN is spending more than it ever has on its fire
budget, it has never had so few wildfire fighters available to fight
fires. Last year the DNR had to request firefighters from other states
when we had a medium fire because although their records showed over 800
casuals were available to fight fire less than 80 actually were. Rural
fire departments already stretched to their limits have indicated that
they are very dissatisfied with the DNRs dumping of wildfire suppression
on them and that they do not have the resources to control major wildfires
You are not alone "Stuck", as casuals are also being held
back "unofficially" in MN as they have been for nearly a
decade.... Fortunately for them the MN DNR cannot order them to standby
and we have our own system in place to find out of state employment for
our members and so no longer rely solely upon the DNR and MIFC for our
livelihood or fire assignments. Many of our most experienced members also
took advantage of the new opportunities presented by the new Federal
positions. Most of those who have work elsewhere are still listed as
"available for duty" by the MN DNR due to a lack of accurrate
records in Human resources and an unwillingness to corrrect them as an
accurrate record would immediately cost "the powers that be"
It makes you wonder though. If MN is withholding firefighters from
other states yet at the same time is extremely dependent on those same
other states for "troops", if we have a bad fire season, will
other states will be willing to supply them? If not, "what goes
around comes around" will "quid pro quo" MNs top fire
officials into another line of work in the near future? I am sure that
neither the MN Legislature or the Governor will be willing to share the
responsibility that is rightly theirs if they have fire officials in the
DNR to take the blame.
Hey, maybe what goes around does come around!
||new pup (douglas)
out west huh? well to tell you the truth; you better come prepared.
"especially" in the in-shape department! iv'e had many southern
crews on my divisions over the years, and they are good hands;
However..... they are never ready for the topography in the west. the
mountains are steep and expect elevations to go from 3500 to 8000 ft.
straight up. the weather is hot and very dry, we might get lucky if the
rh- reaches 30% in the middle of the season depending where your'e at in
the west. all i can realy tell you is to put a lot of running in your pt.
program and even power hikes; it will make life more bearable for you if
you get out here.
be safe and have a great career! L.C.E.S. bro!
nv. fire animal TIM
||I am really pleased to announce that GEORGE JACKSON has been selected as
my replacement as the Fire, Aviation & Residues Program Leader at the
U.S. Forest Service Technology & Development Center in Missoula,
George brings a wealth of practical wildfire experience and equipment
development expertise to the job: he had more than 15 years as a
Smokejumper, working his way up to a Foreman; he's also Division Sup and
Air Attack qualified. He worked winters at MTDC until 1990, when he came
on board full time. George has had the responsibilities for the saw chaps
program, helicopter rappeling and much of the software such as 5 and 55
gallon water bag systems. George has participated in many Fire entrapment
investigations across the U.S., including South Canyon. He is also the
Chair of the NFPA Technical Committee on Wildland PPE (NFPA 1977).
I sure George will bring his own unique style to the job (when he's not
throwing flies at trout from his raft or drift boat), and I encourage you
to give him the same full support I enjoyed from all of you. You can wish
him well at email@example.com
||Hey guys, been reading the post for some time now and this is first time
I have sent something in.
I have just been Red Carded and I am super excited, since 16 years old
I have wanted to do this, and now 18, I can and will. I am with/on North
Carolina's "2nd" out Western Fire Crew, pumped up for this
season. We have only had a few meetings so far, and I am full of questions
cause going out west will be new for me. I hope to meet some of you guys
out there (maybe).
Being that I have never been out west to work a fire, how do these
"fire camps" work? If I should wear out my boots/pack/helmet can
I buy new stuff at a camp or can that stuff be repaired at the camps? If
so how much will it cost me? OR do I need to venture into a town to get
that stuff fixed?
Another pup, eh? I remember my first fire camp experience, but maybe
I'll let the *Just One More Time* crew chime in here - or whoever else
wants to. I assume you've seen the list of things to take on the FAQ
||Well Roses, I'll tell ya what's going on, at least how I see it. BJ
Pearson was elected by the members of a small town in the middle of a
national forest and the only thing keeping it alive is it's natural beauty
(that's not what BJ cares about), the income from Forest Service
employees, and the lonesome timber mill in Quincy. Now that's what BJ
cares about. It's what the QLG cares about. Everything else they say and
do is shrouded behind their ever salacious desire to get more logs into
the mill. What the heck! Let's provide a 1000 acre clear cut around every
town, better yet, let's make a huge safety zone around every structure.
Them damn catastrophic fires are the result of that damn forest circus
promoting 100 years of bad decision making. They put all the fires out and
now we're left with the results. Well, kiss my fuzzy b**t again.
The Forest Service only did what Congress told them to do. The screwed
up forest only reflects what the timber barons wanted for the last hundred
years. Cut the trees, leave the slash, clear-cuts, plant more higher
priced, merchantable seed trees, never mind that they aren't fire
resistant, never mind that future bug-kill is going to produce a stink'in
forest of matches. Don't blame it on the folks who own the mills who gave
thousands of dollars to elect the people who insured they got their way!
Golly no, blame it on the piss-fers who are so bound by the beuracratic
tape that they can't take a dump without some OIG representative examining
for excessive use of toilet paper.
I say, let the county take over the care of the forest around the
private lands within the forest. Hee, hee. DO IT! Let them do their
thinning, harvesting, and maintenance. Then, when fire spreads from THEIR
lands into the remaining forest, let's have the Forest Service send 'em an
invoice. Let's also begin charging the county for federal response into
this new county maintained "buffer zone". Course, we won't be
responding to any initial attack until officially requested through the
appropriate channels, so there may be some delay. We would, of course
expect to be compensated at a rate equal to the OES rates established by
the state of California when utilizing "county engines" for
"extended" support. That would raise the pay of the individual
GS-4 or GS-5 engine crewmembers to around $300-$350 per day. After all,
that's what the current rate for OES delivered engine crewmembers is.
Sounds good to me! Was it just 4 or 5 years ago that there were 124 active
fires on the Plumas within 48 hours? Course, probably only 20 or 30 of
them would have fallen in the buffer zone. I'm sure the existing county
engines could handle that without too many heart attacks. Go get 'em
Plumas County Board of Supervisors. Do you have any clue how much 1
airtanker costs? Just to take off from the runway? Nah, didn't think so.
Do it BJ! Go for it! We can't predict where the lightning is going to
strike, but we got's the documentation on where the big old human caused
fires start. I guess a new 4-party agreement would need to be signed. Yes,
the state would probably be more than happy to step in and help some. But
have ya ever seen a daily invoice for a state engine crew compared to a
federal engine crew? Didn't think so.
How much timber stock do you own BJ?
Bear really doesn't care. I just wanted to provide another perspective
and defend our guys in green. Thanks Ab, for the opportunity to blow off
Ab sez, "OK Fuzz Face, blow away!"
I found a link to that story Roses was talking about: Plumasnews.com
Couldn't find the whole story here. Newspaper hasn't archived the may 16
2001 edition yet.
I'm not familair with the situation.
Thanks Lucky. Readers, I have a faxed version of the two articles
and will send them to whoever wants to read them (unless there are way too
many of you). Drop me an e-mail. Ab.
In response to Roses posting, I would sure like to see that article. If
nothing else, perhaps at least the Newspaper and date.
Having not seen the article, I'm only guessing, but I can't help think
that QLG (Quincy Library Group) money is at stake. And yes, currently
there are private contractors out there that are doing prescribe burning
and timber thinning in Roses area. And yes, these types of activities
sometimes generate wildfires. But Forest require all operation plans to
include fire suppression resources at site and when conditions dictate,
patrols and even shut-down of activities.
One question for Roses. Concerning prescribed burning and timber
thinning, you make the statement . . . "is it not true that if we
allow county workers and private industry to come into our forests and do
these projects that the risk of a possible wildfire is even more
so??" How could this be? Every prescribed burn on NF has a Burn Plan
approved by the Forest! If the Forest does not think the resorces on the
Burn Plan are adequate, the Plan is not approved and the burn does not
happen! Even when approved, the Forest has the final say when it's time to
light. (Like 30 day moratoriums during prime burn windows.) Also, I doubt
there is a private contractor out there who would like to see his profits
eaten up by an escape prescribed burn.
Roses, don't fear the private contractors abilities or presence. You
might be surprised at their backgrounds and by taking on prescribed
burning, they are freeing up agency resources for other missions and
PS: Plumas County taking over burning, that's one I'd have to think
||To "Roses" re: Plumas County and the news:
"I have been reading this one-sided story, but yet there has not
been any comment from the USFS regarding any of this."
Dear Roses, try to get used to it. This is what USFS public affairs
(even in F&AM) is all about. They don't like to comment officially or
unofficially on stuff that looks like this. Take a look at the lead plane
issue over the last 9 months for a clue. If you are a FS employee and you
get hung out to dry by the media, do not expect any help from the agency,
because it likely won't happen. Quite a few people (on the ground, with
the media, and in the WO) have tried for the last few years to change this
unfortunate and archaic situation, but ----- well, don't hold your breath.
It has been ages since I have been here and visited. Due to poor
health, I was forced to turn down my job with USFS this year. I've been
reading my local newspaper only to find that the USFS is yet or still
under attack.. I have been reading some disturbing news the past few weeks
in regards to one of the district supervisors in Plumas Co., BJ Pearson,
saying that the USFS has not been performing to the standards expected of
them. And more of this story goes on to say that there is some discussion
and possibilities right now of the county workers taking over to do the
prescribed burning and timber thinning on the LNF and the PNF. This really
disturbs me. As I know up until this year, we have been short on resources
to do some of these projects that are on the blotter for the "things
to do" list, but is it not true that if we allow county workers and
private industry to come into our forests and do these projects that the
risk of a possible wildfire is even more so?? Please tell me that somebody
is going to respond to these stories in the newspaper..
I have been reading this one-sided story, but yet there has not been
any comment from the USFS regarding any of this. Has anybody even
contacted either Forest Supervisor for a comment on the matter? If BJ
Pearson is allowed to go forth with this plan and do these things, I
strongly suggest to all of the firefighters out there to gather up their
gear and keep it at arms length at all times because our conditions are
very dry and the forests are just waiting for something like this to
Although I am not with the USFS this year, you are all in my heart and
it is obvious by reading these articles that the person who submitted this
article does not have all the facts nor have they talked to the people who
really know, to get the facts. Why havn't the Forest Supervisors or the
Public Information Officers responded on this total attack on the USFS?
I have been hearing a lot of people in town talking down about the USFS
right now and that worries me. These people have no idea what kind of crap
you guys go through to get anything done, let alone to put out a fire. A
lot of folks are talking about the poor response on the Warner Fire that
happened a couple of weeks ago and are saying that you guys just let it
burn, but they are not aware of the fact that there were no resources
available yet because the fire crews weren't even on yet. If it had not
been for some fast thinking by some folks to open up the Chester Air Base
and get some mud flowing and gather up a couple of tankers, that fire
could have been a whole lot worse. I'm just slayed at the people in my
area as I have lived here for almost 10 years and they are always quick to
dis the government without looking at the whole picture or seeking to get
more information on the facts.
If you want Ab, I'll fax you a copy of these articles as I'm not too
sure your paper has them..
Good luck to you guys this season it's gonna be a good one.
My heart goes out there with you all
Remember Stay Safe and Keep Smiling!!
Anyone know about this? Hope you're feeling better. Ab.
I'd like to know if there are other Canadian firefighters reading theysaid
or browsing the website.
Could you please add this link to your international section on the
links page? The Canadian link you have there is no longer being
One issue we have in Canada that I don't think you have in the US is
two languages. We have both French and English speaking firefighters. It
can make for some interesting situations that shout watchout.
Does anyone know what kinds of training US firefighters are offering
abroad? Last summer I heard something about chainsaw training in the South
Pacific. Are there any other ways US firefighters are sharing their
expertise? Anything between the US and Canada?
Thanks for the site. I'm a pretty regular reader. I may be back in the
US this summer. I like the sense of a global community of wildland
We appreciate the heads up on links that no longer work. We'll add
your link soon and take down the old one. We do have other Canadian
readers and posters here. Ab.
I came across this and thought it useful as a review and focus on safety.
safety in the wildland/urban interface
||Where is best place to get all the gear?
We have started the training for wildland fire at Fultondale Fire Dep.
and we need to buy some gear to train with.
What part of the US are you in? Ab.
||Jim on assignment in Florida-
Most in the Fire World know that Minnesota has a large cadre of
aviation folks. These include ATGS, ASGS, HEMG, and HEBM. What most don't
know is that the "powers to be" in MN DNR Forestry have declared
a moratorium on assignments for regular employees based on workload here.
I think that you would see a fair number of the above mentioned positions,
plus many others on the SACC list filled by MN folks if it wasn't for this
moratorium. As long as the National Planning Level remains at 1 MN won't
be sending any regulars. What I heard is that it will have to move up to 3
before they will lift the restrictions on assignments.
The right people need to write some letters for this to change.
Stuck in Minnesota
||Hey -- can anyone tell me what's up with the Helishot programs?
There's one in Apple Valley, CA (I think). Are there any others? I
thought a few more were starting up, just never heard of the status.
Also, I'm curious on what the typical experience level is for new-hires
on a helishot crew. Any help from anyone with expereince or knowlege would
Good to hear you have a type I this year and the helishots are back.
Have a safe year and fly straight.
Ex-LP dispatcher AKA "Los Padrrrres"
||Ab and All
I'm down in Florida and there is already a REAL shortage of ATGS, ASGS,
Helicopter Managers, and Helibase Managers. What is going to happen later
in the year when things go Tango Uniform? Anyone available for details to
FL should let their dispatchers know. Lets play the "Price is
Right" and COME ON DOWN.
||-- To Purple:
Yes, NICC and the GACCs are hiring their own fire mets, paid for with
DOI funding this year. The story you read on wildfirenews.com
is three years old; an update on the fire weather issue ran in the January
2001 issue of Wildland
||I just updated the jobs
page and added the alternative html sit report to the links page under
news and reports.
The pdf version is still available there for those who need crack'o'dawn
information. We will provide a link to the NIFC sitrep when they get the
crack'o'dawn html version online again. Ab.
||Ab - Could you pass this message along?
We're trying to find former members for the Bushmen IR and Entiat IHC
who might like to attend the 35th Anniversary of the Bushmen/Entiat
Hotshot crew Spring, 2002. We plan to tour the Entiat Valley, IHC
facilities, followed by social hour, dinner and presentation/speakers.
Knowing how many people are coming would help. If you are a former
crewmember and/or have stayed in touch with others, please contact us and
let us know your and their names, addresses, and phone numbers so we can
keep track of those who have been contacted. I'm sending our logo also.
Some additional info -
Location: Wenatchee Convention Center
Date: April 6, 2002
Accommodations: West Coast Center Hotel
Dinner: Dinner Buffet for $25.00 per person
Kyle Cannon, Entiat IHC
PO Box 476, Entiat, WA 98822
||Hi there --
I am among the throngs that can't read the sit report either, so I went
in person straight to one of the head gurus, along with the address for
this website -- and because this un-named person is very
"rooted" among all of us field folks, they will be reading --
probably posting and HELPING. Here's what I gathered: Evidently someone
(that MUST) have more time than the rest of us, and knows what they're
doing in cyberworld, downloaded the .rtf version of the sit report, then
imbedded a virus and sent it back, where it crashed the entire NIFC web
site. SOOO, that is the reason for the "unavailable until further
notice" posting. What they are in the middle of doing, is working on
the problem, trying to see if some other easy way to read files will work
-- (ASCII??) -- for the computer literate. The problem has been personally
taken to the folks there, and after getting ahold of this bulletin board
address, I think they will get some very valuable feedback, that otherwise
they might not have gotten!! Let's keep our fingers crossed.
ASCII? How about HTML? Do it simple. Do it not so pretty, if
necessary. Use the same minimalist codes that are used to archive. Here's
that archive url again. www.cidi.org/wildfire/index.phpl
The archive for today's sitrep should be up at 0830 or 0845 PDT if they
do it the same as in past days. Thanks for the legwork, Cache Queen. Ab.
||Here's the web site for the 5th Wildfire Safety Summit; a joint effort
of lots of groups (International Association of Wildland Fire, Interior
West Fire Council, NWCG, etc). Missoula offers lots to do, and the
University of Montana always puts on a great Conference, so plan on
And, we're still looking for a few good papers, so send your abstract
in as soon as you can. Topic areas are on the web site!
Thanks for the update, Dick.
Here are some of the topics: Staying Safe on the Fireline (LCES, Fire
Shelters, Avoidance, etc.); Safety in the Interface for Homeowners and
Firefighters; Health and Fitness in the Firefighter Workforce; Making
Firefighters Safer (training, lessons learned, human factors). Check out
the website. Should be an interesting conference. Ab.
Have an opening on the Type 1 Helicopter at Arroyo Grande, Pacific
Southwest Region for at least one Apprentice at this time. They will get
both Helitack & Helishot experience in one year. We pay Salary &
you pay perdiem. If you have any questions call Ted Mathiesen at
I just read the article titled 'Fireweather Controversy' on
wildlandnews.com and it certainly made me stop in my tracks to think. The
NWS has consistently slashed meteorologist positions that are dedicated to
fire weather forecasting. Instead they are making everyone into general
forecasters with 'training' in fire weather. If we get an old fire weather
forecaster putting out reports, all well and good, but what happens when a
general forecaster with 'fire training' is doing the job? The article
indicates that the training course ciriculum is put together by NWS, and
is not acredited by fire agencies. Now I don't know about the rest of you
folks out there, but this doesn't sound too good to me. I have no problem
with fire weather forecasters mentoring new people into their specialized
field but where does that expertise come from if everyone is just a
general forecaster? Mr. Stokols' comments in regard to these changes
within the NWS sound like bureaucratic double-talk. I would like to see
some thoughts from the rest of you out there on this topic and on IMET
availability. Also, I have it on good authority that NICC has hired their
own fire weather forecaster away from NWS because of previous problems
with them (NWS). I am unsure how far this new arm of NICC will extend but
perhaps it is an indicator that fire agencies will hire their own fire
weather specialists in the future because NWS can't meet fire needs with
their reduced budget.
||Pulaski, thank you for the advice. It worked. True story, I hit 40 last
year and within a week my vision changed. I swear I'm not making this up.
||Well, I haven't posted in awhile but I got the call yesterday that I am
heading to Florida. I am going to be running an engine down the in the
Ocala district around Lake George. Anyway, if I don't see everyone before
the full swing of the season, everyone stay safe...
Agency Links are up. Some interesting browsing here. Thanks adftr,
fireronin, Todd, AL, onea you PA guys, someone from WA, the Hawaiian fire
woman, JK, TR and probably some others ... Anyone have any more, send em
||Well, Washington state is dry and has had a few fires so far, today it
is headed up to the high 80,s and getting real dry .. anyone working on
the west side here, the local fire depts are not up to par yet .. the
state is getting there. and me, i am all set to go..
Check with R9 fire staff. The Midewin Tallgrass Prairie in Illinois is
going to host a new future hotshot crew. Their target date is July 1 to
have people on board. Hiring a crew supt., assistant supt., 2 formen and 3
squad leaders plus the 13 firefighters......They are hoping to get some of
these folks from the round 3 hiring, but hey, give them a call and maybe
there's another avenue open.
Old Fire Guy
I know this stuff about the SIT Report is getting to be old, but the
lack of a SIT report in html seems so silly to me. Look, wildfire.com is
doing a sit report modified to html from somewhere. I appreciate their
efforts, but am concerned regarding safety.
We really need an alternative to the current NIFC pdf version. However,
in retreiving, converting, then posting the SIT report, transpositional
mistakes can be made. Suppose one made a simple mistake in the conversion
and left out information on a new large fire. What impact might that have
on readers or citizens living in the area of the missing fire? The SIT is
and will be large enough to make side-by-side comparison very difficult
and that would probably be what one would need to do before posting, just
to make sure there were no mistakes. Even a single typo in the fires/acres
portion might have serious consequences.
Readers, I invite you all to check this out - yesterday's sit report
that I did as an exercise for Ab to see how difficult the process is. Even
working backwards, it's not hard. I did it by cutting and pasting from the
nicc archives which were posted yesterday morning:
here are the SIT report archives put up about 0830 daily: www.cidi.org/wildfire/index.phpl
and more specifically, the first one, which is yesterday's, posted in
the morning: www.cidi.org/wildfire/ixl20.phpl
It's quite simply amazing that the archive contains the SIT rep in a
wonderfully easy content which can be read by ANY browser without the use
of a sub-program crutch, yet NIFC still insists on pdf'ing it. What an
ass-backwards process. (Scuse my language Ab, but it is!!!) Without
checking too closely, it also appears the archive would be 508 compliant
and be able to be read by txt readers.
Ab, at least we should link to the archived SIT so that readers can
have access to it.
Wildfirenews.com I appreciate your efforts in providing a html version,
but think mistakes could be made. Boise should be doing this job. They
make the big bucks (yeah, right).
Boise, please just make the SIT report available to folks in
quickly-readable html. I know ya'll are probably doing the best you can as
quickly as you can, but we need it in html. This is all really silly and
potentially compromises safety.
||Northern CA fire conditions:
Yesterday we had a 25 acre fire in the morning and 1 acre of timber in
the afternoon. This is quite unusual in MAY. A number of fire folks are
shaking their heads and hoping it does not get as bad as it looks. Having
a small heat way right now, the grass is cured and fuel is ready to burn.
Keep your gear handy and by all means be safe.
Heard a rumor that a CDF crew was burned over up north, no details just
a "rumor report". If anyone know more... I just hope the crew is
We are using the Wick 250 currently to meet our contract specs. Having
used Mark 3's for years, I personally would pick a Wick 250 anyday! Near
equal performance with a much lighter package. Two minor problems that I
have found with the Wick are, like the Mark 3, when shutting down but
leaving the the pump connected to the hoselay, disconnect the fuel line
during cool-down to allow for ALL the fuel in the system to be burned.
Leave the fuel line disconnected until ready to restart. This prevents
liquid fuel from being forced into the crankcase by siphon or expanding
pressure in the fuel tank during non-operational periods. This also
prevents fuel residue deposits in the fuel system. (I don't know how it
gets through the carburetor, but I have poured fuel out of more than one
pump engine!) The second problem is the high-speed cut-out switch. Our
switch was really tempermental. I DON'T recommend our solution,
de-activating the switch, unless your operators KNOW how to operate pumps
and you are pumping from an endless supply!
Forget the Mark 3, go for the Wick!
||Ab and All,
I have been dubbed Supervisor of Apprentices for Region 8's first two
apprentices. They have just completed the basic academy 16 and I want to
get them on an organized handcrew. I know this is a little late since most
crews have completed hiring, but we selected our second apprentice only 5
days before the last academy started. I have some R5 contacts but I need
to expand my possibilities. Region 8 is new to this whole program and we
want to provide our apprentices with the best possible training
opportunites. If anyone out there knows of any openings (before or after
round 3 hiring) I would appreciate their assistance.
Thanks R8 Fireguy
||Lo AB, et al.
Congrats Tiny. sounds like you have a lot going on. If you want to work
an engine this summer (after your 18th) call me and well make some
Pulaski. I used the wick 250 a few times last summer. They dont have
the gusto of the mark 3, but are immensly easier on the ears. I found them
easier starting, and less tempermental than the MK3. price wise looks like
to me that they are more money. (the wick versions)
The wick 375 looks like the same 4 stage head as the MK3 just a
different power plant driving it. Never used that one so cant say.
If I was looking for another portable. Id buy a MK3. then silence it
with a bigger muffler. doesnt take much of a muffler and any home hobbiest
should be able to do it. You might lose a little performance, but it would
be worth it. there are a million of these things out there, almost every
cache has repair parts for them, everyone knows how to operate them, and
they are a powerhouse.
heres the site I got for the dollar comparison: www.onestopfire.com/pumps.php.
never heard of em till I ran a search. some company out there sells a
silenced MK3. ive seen their site.
later eric pw
||Regarding the posts from Tired of it in Pa and FD15:
Both of these writers have some valid points but this topic has to be
put into perspective in light of PA's conservation and fire history. PA
was a forerunner of forest conservation as it began buying cut over
forests before 1900. Fires were raging and out of control. That current
State forest fire laws were begun. It a short time, the State was given
the charge of protecting all forests from fire. A fire warden system was
passed by law. It established a State Fire Warden, District Fire Warden,
and local fire warden. We have a long and proud history of volunteers. The
payment schedule still is not minimum wage because it is not a wage or
salary. The system worked. Local fire wardens gathered up their crews and
reported to the fires. Railroads also supplied labor. Fire companies
stayed home to protect the towns.
Today, we still have the fire warden system. However, the independent
warden's role has decreased over time and the volunteer fire company's
role has increased. A fire warden is a legal state officer who can
investigate, suppress and train. The DCNR appoints a fire warden in each
fire department, provides equipment, training, and handles the various
federal grants to rural companies. The fire departments, fire wardens, and
firefighters are covered by the State's workmen's compensation. I now
offer the following opinions/comments as an individual who is a state
employee and a past member of a volunteer fire company and a volunteer
ambulance association, I intend no disrespect to the volunteer companies.
The staff of the Bureau of Forestry cannot possibly respond to each and
every wildfire in one the most populated but yet blessed with wild
forested states. Praise be to the VFD. Their service to the people and
protection of our natural resources is not appreciated enough. Most
wildfires are grass and brush fires. People now call 911 and bazillions of
firemen respond. With small fires, no one worries too much about who is
the boss. The fires get put out. When the fires get into the woods and one
cannot see all of the fire, communication and safety are # one. Thank
goodness our fires on the average stay small but once in a while they get
big. like they used to. The Camp Fire was one of those. I was not there
but this information comes first hand. The fire was remote in steep
country and included the west rim in our PA Grand Canyon. The flames were
higher than the trees. It crept, it crowned, it was a monster. It was a
time for the incident management system. People were put in charge who
have vast fire experience including fire boss ratings, strike team
leaders, etc. They combine for decades of experience. It was not time for
our usual and get away with it clusters. Safety was paramount. It took a
plan, it took air resources, it took backfiring, it took firefighters
trained for this. Many of the volunteers just showed up were toned out by
fire companies on their own. People showed up and were not used to this
type of emergency and were naturally agitated if not used or included in
the planning. Those who wish to be included should check out a relatively
new in-state fire warden specialized crew program. These were used on the
fire by folks, mostly VFD members who have trained hard and with many
members experienced on western details.
If PA ever gets a rash of big fires or urban rural interface fires, we
will relearn what we helped the nation learn a long time ago. It will be
time when the fire department will be so busy protecting structures, that
who is charge of the firestorm will not be an issue. If I am assigned to
help protect structures, I will take my orders from the fire chief. The
reverse was necessary in the Camp Fire. The recommendation to talk to the
District Forester (also the District Fire Warden) is what should be done.
Everyone have a safe fire season from one too old to go out west but
who is, never-the-less, a proud PA fire eater, both with the State and the
||Reposting my question...someone has to have used these.
Im looking for someone who has used a wick-250 or wick-375
portable pump that is willing to pass on a review on its
..on the sit report issue, I have found that in the pdf version if I
click on the little enlarge thingy once, It brings it to an acceptable
size to read ok.
||RE: whether the sit report in PDF is hard to read ---
It's not you, Ab and Biz, nor your eyes, nor your computer. I have a
spiffy computer and 20/15 vision and extremely good light. And that thing
is a bitch to read. A PDF will crash some browsers (or even an OS) but
it's not hard to read BECAUSE it's PDF. It's hard to read because the
person who builds the sit report either doesn't know how to or doesn't
care to build a file that's easy to read. I'm not trying to be mean here,
just stating fact.
||There is an html sit report online here: http://wildfirenews.com/fire/sitreport.phpl
It's not there on weekends, but they usually have it up by mid-morning
||GEEEZ, it just gets weirder. For a while there NIFC was posting the sit
report in PDF and then adding an RTF version (which they called a text
version but which was not a text version). Now the RTF isn't there
anymore. Their page says "Current report (in text file format)
Unavailable until further notice."
What is UP with those people????????????
||Is it just me or are others having trouble reading the first part of the
sit report? I don't know if I need new glasses or a new computer.
It is hard to read, isn't it? Eyes aren't as young as they used to
be and even with good light. Maybe they could do a darker print even in
I changed the link to the sit report on the links page on Saturday
because a slew of readers had e-mailed that the old link address that
warns of the upcoming pdf file disappeared and the new arrangement was
crashing their computers. Wonder how many people around the fire world are
experiencing that phenomenon? Well, our link now goes directly to the pdf
sit report. Not the best situation fer sure. Compromising safety? Hope
they're working on providing a html version. Ab.
Just to set the record straight, I was not referring to myself in regard
to the PT program.
There are other reasons as to why I believe that the retirement age
should be left alone, but this is not where I choose to discuss them. I
have however let my elected representatives in the House and Senate know
my position on this issue as I would hope you have.
So enough on this subject ..... have a safe, productive summer!
Sorry to get ya the information through back channels but you have a
pretty good crew that posts here and they tend to pass on all the
Thanks to all for your congrats for my Eagle and FF1, but strangely I
have a suspicion that the real work lies ahead. Maybe I'll meet up with a
few of yas as I get signed up for more training and red cards and stuff
like that, of course maybe a few of you I've already met... hard to say...
Mellie - In my experience, being modest is a good way to go about doing
things, but thanks for your enthusiasim all the same. Shyness is not
something I'm known for.. modesty is. If you think I'm shy ask me what I
think of politics some time <grin>.
Here's to all for a safe season.
Tiny, the R-6 Fire Pup
PS "Pup" ain't no misnomer... I am and still will be a young
kid, thanks to one very good man who served as my Admin Chief throughout
my Firefighter 1 Academy and who said, "It takes a boy or a girl to
be a firefighter, not a lady or a gentleman.. Why you ask? Becasue no true
adult would ever want to do what we do."
||its nice to see some of the younger folks that know what and how to get
what they want out of life. tiny you are now a eagle scout, a firefighter,
and an adult, go out and show the other younger folks what they can do to
get somewhere in life, you will go far .. god bless ..
Thanks for giving us a heads up on "PUP"
It is refreshing to hear of a young man who is taking great steps to
succeed in life. Congratulations on achieving Eagle, "Tiny", it
is an honor that few earn. I know how hard it is to obtain. You serve as
an inspiration to the many younger Scouts that are hoping to someday be
there. I have a 12 year old that is already working on his first class.
Keep up the great work!!!!
On another note, east Texas is very quickly losing the edge that we had
with a wet winter and now all of the sudden all of that rain has brought
on a very heavy fuel load looks like its going to be another hot summer.
Stay safe, Keith
||For years we had a tiny guy leading our crews. He was so great with the
big chainsaw we took to calling him "Small Bunyan."
The stature of a firefighter has more to do with character than size.
Congratulations to Tiny for his recent accomplishments.
BTW, a New York publisher has asked to see my book, Woman on Fire, so
I'm sending off the proposal this week. Maybe you'll be able to feature it
in your "books" section next year?
Good luck. Ab.
||congrats tiny, gonna be running with the big dogs real soon!!!!!!!!
:-) donna~doser op~support
As regards fed wildland firefighter age, there are two issues here.
Manditory Retirement Age (MRA) and Manditory Entry Age (MEA).
Senate Bill 3178 introduced by Senator Diane Feinstein would increase
the manditory retirement age to 57. (A similar bill HR 460 has already
been passed in the House.) Passage of the Senate bill would not only
increase the retirement age to 57 but could also increase the MEA to 37,
as ff need 20 years of payment into a federal retirement fund. Why
shouldn't qualified and experienced firefighters who are somewhat older
than 35 be considered for permanent jobs if there is need? Many of the
shortages in qualified applicants under the current MEL and
counter-attrition hiring are at the DIVS level. We do have more qualified
temp people out there who would have applied for such positions if they
had had the opportunity. As most of you know, with downsizing and ceilings
on permanent positions, there have been minimal permanent and seasonal job
A bit more info: The MEA is set by agency heads, in the FS case, the
Dept of Ag head. It is not fixed by law. Agency heads can grant waivers.
Perhaps we need another summer of burning before she decides that the MEA
for experienced fireline firefighters can be waived. MEA is waived for
pilots when it can be documented that applicants will not be available
under current the MEA of 35, why not firefighters?
I don't know what to tell ya - I can't do P.T. for you, so that part is
truly your call. The point is, an arbitrarily determined mandatory
retirement age from anything is probably a little more intrusion than most
of us need in our lives. As stated before, your ability to successfully
perform the duties of your Position Description should be the determining
factor in whether or not you retain that position. If you want to retire
at 50 or 55, retire - that's cool, nobody's tryin' to rain on your parade;
but, keep in mind, one size rarely fits all. What works for you in your
world may not necessarily work that well for others. Something wrong with
giving the individual & the agency a collective choice in these kinds
As far as "mentoring" goes, as long as the organizations
continue to hire brand new people, you'll never run out of folks to mentor
(many of them appreciate the help). I salute you for what you've given the
people in the fire world & wish you well in retirement (if that's
looming); but, retirement should be your choice if you're acquitting
yourself well on the job.
||Ab and All,
Great site. Have been a firefighter in a small rural town in north
western Pa for twenty two years and it is nice to see such a site as
yours. Great job and job well done - keep up the good work.
Welcome, Dennis. We have had comments from posters out your way. You
could say that we provide the site and the posters provide the trappings
that make this a community. Ab.
||Congrats to Tiny,
I know how hard it is to attain the rank of Eagle Scout. This
accomplishment is one that will be with you for the rest of your life. I'm
almost 36 and I still am reaping the benefits!!! So congrats to Tiny.
A fellow Eagle Scout, and professional firefighter.
This last year our TINY has been doing the high school thing, SATs,
Junior ROTC, applying to universities and racking up the achievements.
While he may shy at sharing them, I'm not! Most of us have known him here
on theysaid for the last year and a half. (Remember, at first he bent the
truth about his age, implying he was 2 yr older than he was! He still
won't be 18 until August.) Please join me in offering him BIG
congratulations on his good work! Here are a few exerps from some recent
e-mails I've received.
From Tinypup's Scoutmaster:
"Congratulations" to <Tiny>, our newest Eagle Scout! He
passed his Board of Review this evening (5/16) with flying colors, and
was deemed an Eagle Scout at 1923 by the <snip> District Board
members. Our thanks go to them for selecting such a fine example of
today's youth for Eagle Scout. Very well done, <Pup>! This is most
deserved and I know how hard you've worked to get to this point. Well
done <parents>! You've a fine young man in <TinyPup>.
And from Tiny:
Effective 18 May 2001 at 2052 hours, I was promoted to the rank of
Firefighter in <snip> County, Washington and have recieved
Firefighter 1 Certification in the State of Washington. Pretty cool huh?
Man it's been a busy year.. and in 18 days I Graduate from High School..
Man.. I'm one tired Pup!
Ab, I know we don't put up much personal info about people, but I want
to say that "Tiny" or "TinyPup" is something of a
misnomer. You know those dogs that are born small but within moments have
REALLY BIG feet that they then proceed to grow into? Well this TinyPup is
one'athem! and lets hope he doesn't get much bigger! or, as my mom used to
say, "we'll have to find a place for that 'pup' outside!"
CONGRATS, Tiny, for multiple jobs well done. May you continue to DO US
||Hi everyone --
Just another heads up before anyone gets too involved in going out and
purchasing BDUs from private vendors.....I realize GSA is behind in
production, but there are some rumors lurking out there, that if anyone
purchases the BDU style nomex pants from other than required sources, they
may have to pay for it out of their own pockets (if you want to and it's
NFPA approved -- that's your choice -- although spendy!).....just be
aware, and maybe check with your units on the policy in place before
making any purchases.
There are a few vendors selling "BDU style brush pants" or
variations thereof. Heres a partial list and personal thoughts:
National Fire Fighter Corp., Eugene OR -- 6.0 oz. nomex; sized S M L XL
etc., standard inseam sizes; cheesy metal zipper
Cascade Fire Equipment Co., Medford OR -- 7.5 oz. nomex; custom sewn to
your size; good heavy nylon zipper
Wildfire Pacific -- Portland OR -- 6.0 oz. nomex; S M L XL etc., standard
inseam sizes; the metal waist tabs dig into your waist
Supply Cache, Ft. Collins CO -- 6.0 oz. nomex; custom sewn to your size;
suspender buttons; sized smaller than usual
JG Enterprises, Mayaquez Puerto Rico -- 7.0 oz. Advance (kevlar/nomex
blend); S M L XL etc., button fly; reinforced crotch; best pants on the
market and the price reminds you of it
National, Cascade, and Supply Cache will make their pants in Advance if
you want to pay $50 more. Advance looks nice but is thick material can get
your "black leg" itching if its hot outside. Advance also
deteriorates due to UV faster than nomex. My personal choice is the
Cascade pants cause of the zipper and heavier nomex. They will do custom
work also. I had some Nomex IIIA material shipped from Southern Mills in a
**different color**, sent to Medord, and requested some knee
reinforcements added onto their standard design. We'll be "stylin'
and profilin'" this season.
||Series 462 and 455 are updated. Ab.
While you may have some valid points in your mind......get a clue...the
youth needs room to grow and our mentoring should be DONE prior to
reaching 55 (or 50 depending the retiree's viewpoint).
Wishfully thinking, a vigorous PT program is part of ALL of our daily
regimes. You are absolutely correct in the statement that there are still
some very sharp minds out there past 55.....duh.
Obviously there are two sides to every position and mine happens to be
that if you have info worth passing on then you have already passed it on
and are probably past due for a well deserved retirement at 50 with the
option being 55.
Are two more years going to provide you the perceived time you need to
pass on the experience you haven't already passed to the youth?? I think
I respect your position but think you need to take another look at
"your agencies" youth and mentoring program.. Killer
||Recently, Stephen Pyne wrote a book called "Year of the
Fires". Here, he attempts to give sufficient detail in order to help
the reader arrive at his/her own conclusions. His book was reviewed for
the New York Times. The NYT reviewer summed up this way:
"The problem...., is that ..Fire suppression is bad and does not
work. Prescribed burning is good but does not work either.... However,
(Pyne's) implied conclusion is obvious. Government has to give up fighting
fires in the wild and allow the normal cycle of growth, fire and regrowth
to be restored, after which controlled burning may be safely used.
Given his obvious desire to contribute to the policy debate over forest
management, Pyne would have done better to shrink his narrative and expand
In other words, the reviewer isn't convinced Pyne has the answer.
||Re: Killer & Old Boy & the 55 retirement age:
Hey, guys, we've got P.T. thresholds that were not in place when 55 was
designated the mandatory retirement age. Theoretically, these thresholds
should prevent the old, sick, infirmed, & out of shape folks from
being on the fireline. Check out the airline pilots - there's a bill in
congress that will eliminate their mandatory retirement age. There's lots
of folks out there in the fire world who are approaching 55 who have lots
left in the tank.
Why not lift the mandatory retirement age & allow folks to make
their own choice, providing they can maintain the P.T. thresholds. Think
about it - what do suggest the mandatory retirement age for a brain
surgeon should be? A lawyer? A baker? A candlestick maker? A pool boy?
Some federal firefighting organizations might not be as "deep"
as you seem to think yours is. &, BTW, you might be missing out on
some pretty good people who want to give to the fire mission who happen to
be over 35. "Can you still perform the duties of your position"
should be the sole criteria of whether you are retained in that position -
not an arbitrary age affixed to that position over 30 years ago.
Experienced, creative thinkers & doers are welcome in my fire camp
||Tired of it in PA,
I understand how you feel about the Camp Kline Fire. I had two crews,
brush unit and tanker there 3 days. and the crews from Lycoming and
Clinton County's told me that DCNR would not let them put the fire out and
kicked them off the fire every day in the afternoon but called them back
every morning to just stand around. Being in Forest District 10 this is
not how we fight fires, we have a great working relationship with DNCR
District 10 personnel and they are helpful in obtain equipment,
reimbursement, and working with us. In District 12 rumor has it the they
don't want volunteer fire department on wildfires. Hang in there don't let
them push you out.
Suggestion to you is to have the county fire chief meet with DCNR and
iron things out. My district forestry were upset at what I told them about
the fire management.
I am familiar with the MN problem. Resources are "held back"
from availability to cover the DNRs' ass. Due to mismanagement of human
resources the MN DNR is very uncertain how many firefighters will actually
show up to fight fires. Last fall although their official list indicated
they had 800 available firefighters they had to call in out of state
resources because less than 80 firefighters were willing to show up at a
major fire. This cost the state half a million dollars additional just for
the out of state personnel alone and they were embarrassed when I brought
it to the attention of the legislature this winter at a series of hearings
I was asked to testify at. The DNR officials responsible sent an employee
to each hearing that was unable to answer the questions posed about the
fast deteriorating situation in MN...which really pissed off the
legislators after the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hearings. It is likely that as a
private contractor you are running into the same problem that MN
"casuals" have had for a long time. You are being held in
reserve to cover a probable shortage of experienced firefighters that is
so severe that there are not enough to man the engines and other equipment
the MN DNR has invested millions in over the past decade. They don't seem
to care that by holding you in "unpaid standby" they may be
ruining your business any more than they cared that they were screwing
their firefighters out of valuable experience and paychecks they could
have gotten elsewhere. Priority number one for MN Fire Management is CYOA
at all costs.
Contact me...I may be able to help.
Minnesota Wildland Firefighters Association
No, wasn't in Salt Lake for the event that included Pyne for dinner,
just read the article and got a good chuckle out of the metaphors of
grizzlies and fire always ready to go wild (or feral, as he puts it).
Smokey now says, "Only you can prevent wildfires." How do
we change thinking?
Why were you less than pleased with his presentation? any of the points
John raises figure into your dissatisfaction? Please, let's not jump on
Pyne with both boots. But what do you think he overlooked? How could his
talk have been better -- or less irritating?
||I admire Professor Pyne's work and respect his message.
He should have a cost-benefit analysis done on his work having regard
(inter alia) for the following:
If there were no humans, there would be a true fire ecology. Introduce any
appreciable number of humans, and the sheer complexity of the issues takes
us well beyond the aboriginal fire cultures Professor Pyne is fond of
quoting into a whole 'nother world.
- the number of fire starts attributable to human negligence,
inevitable accident, or crime;
- the effects on human health of smoke, especially among the very
young, the very old, and the breathing-affected;
- the estimated affects of the thinning program;
- estimated risks to human life and property losses directly due to
dropping suppression efforts by some factor; and
- a reconciliation of the excess carbon load placed on the environment
by allowing more burning in the context of the climate change debate.
Ahem, "inter alia" is Latin for "among other
||Wayne, Fire crew bus driver, this might help you.
Here is the name and phone number for a design shop
out of Grangeville Id. They make a lot of the T-Shirts
for the fire season.
Gem Sign and Design (208) 983-2320
Everybody have a safe fire season, it's going to by a
long and hot one.
||ab. something i like to ask some folks . it is about name requests. how
can a contracter out of minn. get a request for engines and bypass local
folks. i keep hire this and have seen this in the last few years .. is
money changeing hands here under the table some where. are we back to the
you pat my back i pat yours days.. i hope not .. this is not a beef with
the guy from minn. but it is just that i have seen folks that work hard
and still get passed up for fire work.. thanks engine 88
||Does anyone know the best place to purchase the new style nomex brush
pants. I've looked around and can't find any.
Were you at that gathering & Pyne's after dinner speech in SLC on
I thought the first 10 mins were interesting, but the rest, well, let
us say we were quite irritated.
||Nice article here: http://www.sltrib.com/05172001/utah/98053.php
This is a wonderful, if daunting, Stephen Pyne image:
"Reintroducing fire will not be unlike reintroducing
grizzlies," Pyne told a gathering this week of the Western Rural
Development Center. "Fire does biological work that nothing else
does. But it's always ready to go feral."
You wrote something a few days ago that stuck in my mind and prompted
me to write. You said "A lot of people in power read this
board". I hope you are right and that this information that I am
about to pass along will reach some very powerful people who can put a
stop to this nonsense.
To give everyone a little background: In March, I saw a memo dated
February 22, 2001, and signed by Neal Hitchcock from NICC, that stated:
- Name requests for individuals for suppression orders should be a
- The 2001 National Mobilization Guide states: Name requests will only
be accepted for highly specialized positions or to meet specific
- Dispatch centers, GACCs, and NICC all have the responsibility to
"screen orders" to ensure that assignments are being offered
on an equitable basis within their sphere of influence.
- Name requests need to be validated using objective criteria, for
example: this person is a priority trainee or is in a critical
I received a second copy of this memo in April. This is a shortened
version of the memo and I could go on and on, but I think I've adequately
set the stage for everyone.
Recently, I received information that Region 8 placed a name request
for an AD (retired agency employee) from Region 1 to fill an aviation
position. The order was initially filled with someone from a closer region
who was equally qualified basically not honoring the name request. When
Region 8 heard that the name request was not filled as specified, they
cancelled the filled order and resubmitted the name request which was then
filled. My frustration with this stems from several issues:
On a similar note, why are we sending ADs out, but not enforcing our own
14-day assignment policy? Can't somebody in the higher ranks of agency
management give us some better direction to follow or the support to
follow the direction we've already been issued???
- The agency is not following national direction set by NICC.
- By sending ADs in these positions, the agency is not giving its own
employees adequate training opportunities.
- The agency is spending a significant amount of money in paying AD
rates and travel when other more cost efficient alternatives are
- This situation puts support personnel (dispatchers) in a bad
situation trying to enforce this national direction without management
support. (I mean, how can NICC issue the direction and then not
enforce it themselves?)
Before I close, I'd like to say that contrary to how it may sound in
the message above, I truly appreciate the AD personnel who so willingly
give of themselves to help us accomplish agency goals and missions. We
couldn't do it without them. This issue in not a personal attack on any
AD, but rather an attempt to pinpoint some flaws in agency processes and
Lots of good pumps on the market now, take a look at "Wildfire
Pacific's" web site, they have several wildland type pumps listed
with specifications (www.wildfire-equipment.com/index.phpl).
I am not recommending the company but it is a good place to compare
The Mark III is the standard by which all other pumps are judged, it
has been around for 40 years or so. When they are working, they are great,
if you know how to operate a Mark III you can make it suck a lake dry, but
they are just more than a bit temperamental. I have used a relatively new
pump by Wildfire Pacific, the "Mini-Mark" and was impressed, it
is worth a look. I also have used a small "Sindowa" pump and for
the size it was impressive.
In the last few years portable 4-cycle pumps have come on the market
that some claim will out perform a Mark III, and are not as near
temperamental. Plus, they have the advantage of not using mixed gas, run
cooler longer and can take rough handling. My information on 4-cycle pumps
is second hand, but if correct, they are worth looking at.
||I heard the union was writing a letter in April in support of the MEA
being increased to 37. Anyone know anything about that?
||I second Killer's sentiment, leave 55 retirement alone. You want to have
time left to enjoy what you missed all these years. Less than 55 leaves a
lot to be desired in annuity/benefits. What is the latest on HP being
added to the high 3 computation? That would make a difference.
||**for the links update**
Pulaski sez: WI DNR just got their fire program page up and running.
There is not a whole lot there yet (cept for the prev & wx pages which
I did) but the link is online at least.
Jim "Hurricane" sez: I look at your site everyday! Great Job!
When you are updating your state agency links, please put in the link for
the South Dakota State Forestry Fire Information Page -- "The latest
and greatest from the Coyote State".
I linked to 'em on the links
I've been lurking for a while now. Terrific site!
Just a quick update on the fire situation. The Twin Coulee fire in
centeral Montana that broke 2 nights ago was reported at 500+ acres
burning in timber and green grass. The timber was carrying the fire. This
is not a good (depending on how you look at it) harbinger of things to
come for the 2001 fire season. Keep your heads up folks, we are going to
be seeing some incredible fire/fire conditions.
In response to Puzzled's questions about the crew weight in the IHC
spec's. Puzzled was right on the money. Each crew is allowed a total
weight of 5100 lbs in order to fly on government contract or large
transport charter aircraft. The 5100 lbs refers to body and gear weight
totals for 20 persons. The government contract jets are configured for 101
seats (5 crews and 1 loadmaster). That's why when you fly, your strike
team leader is a member of one of the crews instead of taking an extra
person along. Also just a heads up for you chief of party's out there.
Keep your manifests totally strack. If names or weights have changed,
correct them before the aircraft arrives. Even worse if you show up
without a manifest, the flight crew will have to do a roll call which
takes lots of time. Those large transport jets cost big money, and I mean
BIG, not to mention throwing the whole eta off! Everyone on the line, stay
safe out there this season!
Welcome Purple. Ab.
Thanks for the heads up, but its all ready started. We've been kickn'
out 1 and 2 acre fires all day like they're going out of style. 100 +
degree days already and single digit day time humidities, with lots of
wind and no rain in sight for a while. You folks might get to come out
West this summer sooner than you think!
||Regarding fire packs and packing:
I have recently purchased a LED head lamp. While it isn't much for
throwing light to work by, its somewhat adequate. It's great for general
moving around and excellent for reading or any close up work. It takes 3
AAA cells and it weights less than 5 ounces. I will pack one for a spare
head lamp, not much weight for a lota light and it's supposed to last a
long time on the batteries. Cost is relatively high $35, by Petzel, but I
think it's worth it. The bulbs are supposed to last a really long time.
Here is a photo for you rotorheads taken on the Jones Incident.
Thanks Stu, I put the heli photo on the Heli3
The next mini-project coming up at wildlandfire.com is to update the
links to state DNRs and fire sites. We're going to be expanding the State
Agencies section of the links page: www.wildlandfire.com/links.php#state
Take a look at what's there. We want to focus on useful wildland fire
sites at the state level. Also, MOC, you had a national level agency link
you wanted us to add some time back. Wanna refresh our memory?
||I have a job as a firefighter. What equipment, clothes and personal
things should I take with me? Thanks in advance.
Ted, take a look at the FAQ
page. A bunch of readers wrote in with suggestions for the list. Ab.
||I'm looking for a little info on portable pumps. We are looking at
buying a portable pump comperable to the mark 3 in performance (or close
to it), but hopefully without such a hefty pricetag. Ive seen ads for some
newer brands ( wick etc) but have not seen or used any of them personally.
Would appreciate any input from folks who have used any hands on info.
||Soon to retire,
Lets hope that no matter how much folks cry wolf that the retirement
and entry level age get LEFT ALONE!!!!!!!! While it is true that a lot of
experience is reaching the magical age, it sure doesn't mean that quality
folks are not there to step up to the plate......Let's let the system
another old guy with not much time left......Killer
||With the shortage of fire supervisors available for hire, has anyone
heard any more about raising the MEA to 37 and/or increasing the
retirement age to 57? Are any groups working on advocating this to
Soon to retire (and concerned for the safety of those I'll leave
||Not much detail lately on the regional or national sit reports, but
here's an update from your friendly local NPS folks:
Everglades NP (FL) - The Lopez Fire (8,030 acres - no change from
Saturday) has been 85% contained. Full containment is expected on May
15th. A total of 83 firefighters and overhead have been committed, along
with four engines and three helicopters. Here is yesterday's update on the
Lopez Fire. This information, photos and a map are posted on the park's
expanded web site and can be found at www.nps.gov/ever/fire/fire01.php:
The fire has burned an area of sawgrass prairie and hardwood hammocks
totaling 8,030 acres. It has not increased in size for several days due to
air attack and continued suppression efforts. Helicopters continued to
drop water on the fire through May 12th. On May 12th and 13th, ground
crews worked around the fire's northern and southern flanks, dealing with
hot spots in the hardwood hammocks with the potential to escape into
unburned vegetation. This work was completed on Saturday. Engine crews
held the fire along Context Road, on the southern perimeter, and mopped up
hot spots in the hardwood hammocks. While initial attack is winding down,
there is still some work to be completed to fully control the fire. A
burnout of about 300 acres was planned for late yesterday afternoon to
secure the control line on the fire's southeast corner at Context Road.
This action will consume unburned fuel between the line and the fire,
making it possible for a smaller number of fire personnel to safely
control the fire from the road. One engine and crew will remain at the
Pa-hay-okee overlook; the sprinkler system that has been set up to protect
the Pa-hay-okee boardwalk will remain in place through today. Fire
monitoring will continue via aerial reconnaissance and road patrols. Fire
danger remains high in Florida. Some of the resources (personnel and
equipment) brought in to fight the Lopez Fire will remain staged at the
park in order to support initial attack on fires that may occur in the
region. There's an article on the fire in Sunday's Miami Herald called
"Fire Destroys, Renews Area In Cycle Of Life - About 8,000 Acres
Expected To Thrive." It's on the web at: www.miami.com/herald/news/etc
||Jobs page, series 462 and 455 are updated. Ab.
just came off the Rock Creek fire in the TahoeNF
Burned pretty steadily and hot. the season has begun
Brett- D Mtn Shots
Yes we are having some incredible fires here in NH. We have been
consistantly having red flag days...the RH in the white mountains last
friday was only 23% and had been as low as 9% a couple days before. We are
finally getting some cooler temps and the promise of rain however it just
evaporates before it reaches the ground! We had so much snow no one can
believe this draught!!! Anyway fire season is off with a bang in this neck
of the woods!! Hope we get to go out West again this summer...otherwise we
will be right here!! Hope all is going well for you!! Getting a chain saw
course in next week!! One more addition for my red card!!
Yesterday you posted the IHC Appendix. What does the row
"weight" mean? Is it that all crew together can't weigh more
than 5100 lbs.
I have been a daily reader of your web page and figured it was time to
send you an e-mail and to let you know that you might want to update your
list of shot crews. I have enclosed an attachment to this with the logo of
the recently disbanded St. Joe IHC. I hope you will get it to your Logo's
Formed in 1967 on the St.Joe National Forest (now the South Zone of the
Idaho Panhandle N.F.) the "Joe" was the last of three Inter
Regional crews hosted in Northern Idaho. The other two crews hosted by the
forsests of the Idaho Panhandle were the Kaniksu I.R. and the Coeur
d'Alene I.R. Both were disbanded in the late 70's-early 80's. The St.Joe
was hosted by the St.Maries Ranger District from 1967 to 1997. The crew
celebrated their 30 year anniversary function at Clarkia Work Center. The
crew was relocated by the Idaho Panhandle National Forest to Coeur d'Alene
to be a more centrally located resource for the other districts on the
forest after the 1997 fire season.
As happens to most good things moved by a government agency, things
didn't proceed well for the St. Joe after the move. The 1998 fire season
was great but things began to fall apart. Internal conflicts, conflicts
with the local district personnel, micromanagment at the district and
forest level, and animosity from local district fire personnel, the last
of the St.Joe IHC members moved on to bigger and better careers during the
ASAP/AVUE hiring in 2001.
In March of 2001 the last of the St.Joe overhead that moved in 1997
left and the St. Joe was no longer. The new organization there will be
known as the Idaho Panhandler (did I add an extra letter to this) Hot Shot
Crew. The many ex crew members of the St.Joe are proud to have been
members of this former outstanding national resource.
Readers and users of this websight please welcome this new Type I crew
onto the fire scene in 2001 and give them any breaks deemed necessary
while they get on their feet.
Ex Joe Boy
Thanks. I put the patch on logo4
||I'm Trying To locate Any T-Shirt Vendors That May Still Have Shirts
Available On The Manter 2000 Fire, And The Montana 2000 Fire.
Also Any T-Shirts On The Fires In No. Carolina And Tennessee.. Also Sweat
Shirts... Also Looking For Saint Florian Medal And Statue. (Patron Saint
Of fire Fighters)
Mine Are Getting Worn......
Fire Crew Bus Driver
||These are some fire photos from burning out several of the many lines in
Idaho this last summer, 2001.
Hopefully people can use these photos for their powerpoints. I have
used some from this site and appreciate having such pictures when I have
needed them. Thanks for the site. You provide an unparalleled service.
Nice pics. I put them on the fire5
You can't e-mail part of a pdf file. Here is the Appendix
G of the IHC Ops Guide in html. Thanks for that, Mellie!
||Hey Firebabe NH,
I hear you had a fire upriver from you a ways, the "biggest fire in a
decade", and burned 100 acres of woods that were dry.
On the other side of the US, the Lassen NF was flying four air tankers
on Sat. just north of Chester CA. They're flying air attack on places that
usually won't burn in July! At least the Klamath and Lassen fires are
contained and ff reportedly got a handle on the Nevada
fires. The Oregon Statesman has a well-written article
with some dire fire season predictions. The Fire Danger Map Fire
Danger Map shows the hotspots and the Keetch-Byram
Drought Index Map reinforces those.
At the moment, I'm feeling pretty good. While the New River is at low
mid-July levels, it's gently raining. Perhaps it will keep raining for a
while. <fingers crossed>
PS. You guys down in R3 better be ready. Look at the current lightning
map from intellicast! It's dry down there, too. (Thanks for the
weather links, Ab).
I don't think that there is a huge concern about the military (National
Guard) taking over the airshow side of fire suppression and heres why.
In a recent AP release it was reported that National Guard helicopter
pilots were unable to get enough airtime to meet NG proficiency
requirements due to a shortage of spare parts. The average NG rotorhead
was only getting around 30% of required airtime to remain
"qualified" to fly due to the high maintenance requirements of
military helicopters and the attendant shortage of spare parts. As I
understand it military helicopters, due to their high performance, are
much less reliable and much more expensive to fly than those common on the
As for fixed wing NG pilots taking over retardant dropping. Most of the
NG pilots I know that fly the large aircraft required to lift the required
weight are airline pilots who spend 99% of their time flying at 35,000
feet and get real nervous when they have to fly at the low altitudes
required for effective retardant drops. These are guys that make six
figures in real life. You cannot order a pilot who makes $150,000 to
$250,000 per year to fly beyond what they feel is prudent. By its very
nature flying low with heavily loaded large aircraft is very imprudent. We
are likely to see a lot of 2,000 foot retardant drops...which are not very
effective at stopping fire.
I admit making generalizations in my above statements and that there
are exceptions. Feel free to point out the exceptions but remember they
"prove the point" when you do.
Finally, what would happen if the NG were needed to support real
military action in some other part of the world, as they frequently are,
during fire season? How high of a priority would wildfire suppression
Oh, I almost forgot....does anyone remember $2,000 toilet seats and
$400 hammers? 1.6 billion goes pretty fast when you involve military
||Thanks to "BLM 'ex-Bear Divide HS' Bob" for his information
regarding national Type I Crews. Good info!
However,I cannot seem to find a link to the IHC Operations Guide which
goes past Page 8. I tried the link that you provided, Bob, and another
that I found via search engine, but no luck. Can anyone help? I would be
satisfied if someone could just send me the text of page 41.........
||Darren -- refreshing change from the type I type-- II crew
Might as well pick on the army and their water dropping abilities. Just
wanted to point out that there are quite a few things we may want to learn
from these folks. As far as professionalism, command presence, etc. I have
had wonderful learning experiences while working with many of these people
on fires and support roles. I also personally know that some of the army
helicopter pilots were former IHC foremen........so they do have some dual
knowledge and capabilities. Many times, with the shortages of resources we
have now days we are lucky to receive the assistance!!
By the way, just to clarify, the incident you were working on was near
||Re the Emma Brown letter:
Wow! Just imagine that you've landed a fire crew assignment and, to
your suprise, you learn that a certain Ms. Emma Brown is on your crew.
Wouldn't that be exciting? Here are some situations that should shout
"Watch Out" just in case...
P.S. If you really want to fight fire for free, would you consider
relocating to PA?
- You don't get ground transportation like everybody else. Instead,
you are instructed to utilize your "LPC's" (leather
personnel carriers). Fueling all those old busses when you have
perfectly good feet? Besides, it would be cheaper to walk, and
probably faster too!
- Your incident doesn't get bucket drops, it's "dry mop"
instead. Those Helitack crews were just sitting around doing nothing,
so we put them to work making up those "bag nasties" for
- The Med. Unit doesn't carry insoles or moleskin anymore. Go to the
commisary, they're "your feet", you buy it!
- You can't get lip balm either. They keep you hunched over working so
much that your lips forgot what the sun even looked like.
- You can't get a new file from supply until your old one looks like a
- You get warm water (not that expensive bottled stuff though) and a
some Gatorade. Ice costs money and it just melts anyway. Besides, cold
liquids will just cramp you up.
- You can't exchange your Nomex unless you can prove hat the old stuff
is "suitably soiled".
- You don't have to be on the clock until 10:00 am.
- You don't see coyote camp. You've humped in your red pack so that
you can spike out instead to save more money.
- You don't have to do staging. You just stay off the clock unless
something really heats up.
- It's raining... and you're in the tent. Off the clock again, stand
by to stand by... Why pay you when the rain is free?
- Your camp gets burned over by the fire that they decided to leave
- You've actually nailed down a "motel trip" and you're the
tent in the parking lot.
||Good site. I am from Alberta, and we have the same
"discussions" about which type of crew is better. I am not going
to get into that. The Brown letter has made the rounds up here and has got
the same response as I've seen in the messages here. Right now we are
maned-up, with a extreme hazard, weve had real dry winter and spring, good
thing no lightning yet.
Anyways, good site, stay safe.
Welcome, you northenern neighbor. Check out our photos pages. We
have some Canadian Scoopers on the AT pages and a spike team camp located
in Canada on the Camp page. Ab.
||Hi there, my name is Suzie Ford, originally from Wa. state, lived in
Central Or. for ten years. We were involved with wildland firefighting and
a small rural vol. dept. for those ten years, my buddy and I were the only
women on our dept. to be state cert. She still lives down there and is
very involved with the wildland side of things. I am missing all of this
and to get to the point, would like some help.
I am sure I logged onto ODF, (Oregon Dept. of Forestry), some time ago,
and realized I could keep updated on all the fire info, etc.. It didn't
seem like I registered with a user name, and password then. Why do I have
to now? Can you help a lady that is missing all the fire stuff?
By the way, you folks have a super site!! Thanks for any help you can
||I think that smokejumpers are better looking than hotshots.
However Hotshots are stronger under the arms than smokejumpers.
Together they are not quite as smart as Type II people, yet they can drink
more beer than most Type II crews.
It is hard to beat a shiny fire truck however.
Most women prefer a shiny fire truck to a DC-3, except if it has been
upgraded to turbine engines, then they like smokejumpers better than water
Hotshots walk in straighter lines when going to chow than smokejumpers,
yet type II crews are more polite when scooping up chow.
Type II crews can be arrogant as well however. Just last fire season I saw
a Type II crew that had their noses so high in the air that they failed to
keep their line straight when going to chow. They did have really cool
The best T-shirts however are sported by rotorheads.
These are the best of all Type I and Type II crews.
And to think that it's all because of their T-Shirts!
Water lizards could learn a thing or two about T-shirts from rotorheads.
Well that's about all I have to say about this pissing match between Type
I and Type II crews.
Now about those problems in New Jersey.....
Havin fun out West.
||I was wondering if anyone could tell me how I can get the notes from
this years Interagency Hot Shot Crew Sup's meeting. I have looked and
looked but, can't find them anywhere. Any help would be greatly
Cute logo up on the Logos4
In response to your query about the Klamath, at the Jones Incident, the
grass is cured, star thistle is greening up, poison oak and manzanita in
bloom, don't recall status of buckbrush other than decadent buckbrush bone
dry and breaks easily! Blackberry and grapevines looked like they could
sure use some water. GET READY FOR SOME EXTENDED STAYS ON THE KNF!
||A report on the Tahoe NF (California) fire. The fire is on the Eastside
of the Sierra, and the smoke column can be seen on the Westside.
||Jim and All,
We do need to be very careful in balancing the need to meet Rx burn
targets with weather and safety. Good points. I know the senators weren't
thinking of those issues. I was simply amazed they were *for* fuel
reduction. Are they different than most? or has someone been educatin' em
up on more than jus ff pay issues?
Sometimes it's hard to balance meeting the targets with staying safe. I
want to salute the FMO and and forest sup on my nor-cal forest for their
decision not to Rx burn yesterday. After checking on the status of the
Klamath and Tahoe fires and looking at resources available, our FMO
decided to be careful. He called off the burn - a prudent move given the
current dry conditions and drawdown of resources committed to the other
two fires. It's more like midsummer than May. Five Waters is dryer than
I've ever seen it. We're going to be extra careful. Could be a long dry
Good luck to fire managers in making the right choices this season.
PS. Enuf of the serious stuff! To Dennis <chuckle> and John L
<smerk> and Larry <raised eyebrow> and WP in your new job
<pinch> and all you other wonderful lurkers of type 1,2,3 or 4. You
take care, ya hear! <giggle> <smooch>
||Readers, a few more comments:
Please, crew bosses, quit sending in your full names. For the most part, I
believe that anonymity is beneficial - so people can say what they need to
say freely. In the recent past, some folks have been at risk for
whistleblowing or asking the non-pc question. A lot of people in power
read this board. There needs to be a free sharing of information and ideas
without threat of repurcussion. This board has shown that if someone is
not correct or if their concerns are not complete, the mulitple sides of
the larger picture will emerge, as it has in the case of the type 1 vs 2
vs hs vs other crews. We all learn from this. Trust the process.
While this Ab is addressing personal "beefs", I am tired of
messages all in CAPITAL LETTERS! I sent the last post that was all in CAPS
(yelling), immediately to the trash!
Phew, I think this Ab needs a happy hour and a relaxing weekend. Busy
week. It's not even fire season exactly, although a lot is burning in
Be safe, folks! There are a lot of newbies out there. Instruct them
well. Take care of yourselves. A lot of us count on you being alert.
||All this Type I vs Type II is crazy.
When Michael talks of CDF crews being the caliber of all hotshot crews,
I think he trying to convince himself, as everyone else reading this seems
to agree otherwise. Not all IHC crews are of the same caliber. The
experience of the overhead on a IHC seems to make a tremendous difference.
Crews with a very experienced supt. and two forman, seem to be the best
crews around. Some crews in cali. have 30-50+ years of IHC experience
between the supt and forman. While some have very little. The experience
level of a CDF crew can never amount to that of an IHC crew or the
training that comes along with it. I'm not knocking CDF crews, they have a
place, and many times do their job very well. My complaint would be they
get too many "privleges", and SOME leave trash on the line, or
try to bury it, but this had been discussed too much already. I know when
most overhead make orders for Type I crews in cali. if they specify a Type
I FEDERAL crew if an IHC is wanted. I have many times also heard of IHC
crews being Type I "A" and CDF crews being Type 1 "B".
I have to wonder about some of the people who have taken on supervisory
positions on some of these new shot crews. I hope that everyone works to
their capabilities, and has a great summer.
Can't believe that the Klamath is already burning. Does anyone know if
it is green on the Klamath where the fire is or is it pre-green? Just
curious. I hope I didn't ramble on too much, I know this discussion has
been beat into the ground, just thought I'd had my two cents worth.
-ex cali. shot-, (not of the prison system)
OK, Ab says enuf of this crew stuff, ihc or otherwise. Everyone has
had their say.
||If you haven't seen it, here's a fairly new feature from NIFC: Six
Minutes to Safety.
Seems to me I heard at the Division Chief's meeting that LA County (?)
began a safety program that involved taking 5-10 minutes first thing every
morning to review safety issues. Seems like a good idea: Early morning and
short timeframe, so not a major loss of attention. The routine of
addressing safety in little bits every day. Repetition, so as to better
get it into long-term memory. A little time to discuss the points...
Anyway, this seems like a nice way to refresh some major safety points.
(Alternatively - There was one crewboss who had a rock with numbers on it.
Driving to a fire he'd get everyone "refreshed" and focused by
tossing the rock to someone and getting that person to tell the group
which one of the 10 or 18 the number referred to.)
||Jobs page, series 462 and 455 are updated.
New logo from Peter on the Logos4
Nationwide (other than USFS and CDF), the BLM, BIA, NPS, and two states
(Utah and Alaska) field (Type 1) Hotshot Crews. Reference the National Mob
Guide, Chapter 63, or:
As you pointed out not all Type 1 crews are Hotshot crews. You can read
the Interagency Hotshot Crew standards at:
On Page 41 of the IHC Ops Guide, there is a chart comparing Type 1 crew
and Hotshot crew standards.
BLM 'ex-Bear Divide HS' Bob
||Look at this. Russia is having big fires too, in eastern Siberia near
on Siberian fires
I wonder if this is in the same general area as the Great Black Dragon
Fire, the catastrophic stand-replacement fire of 1987 in western China on
the Russian border. There were fires on the Russian side that devastated
large tracts of larch forest there as well. Anyone from Russia reading
theysaid? Could you fill us in on what's going on? (For readers interested
in the other big Siberian fire in China, check out the book on the book
Cheryl, I linked to your review of the Black Dragon fire: Great
Black Dragon Fire
(Readers, a small plug -- if anyone buys a book thru us, we get a small
percent from Amazon to defray website costs. Mother's and Father's days,
birthdays and other summer events are coming up.)
Thanks Cheryl, that was a nice review. Ab.
||Northern CA has started. It was 95 degrees in Redding yesterday. Two
fires are cookin':
The Jones Fire mentioned in a post yesterday is near the town of
Klamath River in the Siskiyou Mts. It is now more than 1000 acres and has
more than 550 people working on it (McElwain's Type 2 team).
The Tahoe NF in the Sierra near Truckee also has a fire - Rock Creek -
that is more than 250 acres and has about 75 people working on it
(starting today, Szcezepznik's Type 2 team).
Lets be safe, people. Watch out for the pups.
||Tired of it in PA:
I know how you feel. (Maybe not as bad.) I'm originally from MN, and
individuals get nailed to the wall there.
I decided I wanted to be serious about fire, so I moved west. I would
||Say Ab. Is this assault for real or is this just loose talk?
Calif. Air Guard could get greater firefighting role
I haven't looked at your site in a while and I just noticed some fire
photos from the '99 fire season taken and submitted by someone on the Los
Padres Hotshots. I recognize those shots cuz I was on the crew, and I am
just wondering who sent them. I haven't seen some of those guys from that
season in a while and I would like to get in contact with whoever took
||The discussion seems to be entering a fairly level-headed phase. I only
write to correct some possible misapprehensions. It should be noted that
the virulent feelings have not only been directed at Type II Crews, but
also at other Type I Crews. I am not sure which Crews nation-wide have
attained Type I status, but wish to emphasize that among non-HotShot
Crews, the California Department of Forestry's Fire Crews are ALL
certified as Type I. A rigorous exercise and evaluation is performed on
each of them in the Spring of each year, and if they don't pass, they
don't fight fire. Some USFS personnel have tried to circumvent the system
by specifying "Type 1A" Crews, but they are not fooling anyone.
I sincerely hope and believe that when USFS Crews are assigned to our
fast-moving urban interface fires, they are utilized exactly as are any
other Type I Crew, and I have had the enjoyable opportunity to work with
some of them in those circumstances. There's nothing quite like a
professional, co-ordinated attack by people highly proficient in their
chosen profession. Competition is good, but we could do without some of
the mean-spirited BS that we have had to occasionally endure. Usually our
experience has been some initial insults or arrogant disavowal of our
existence, followed not long after by some heartfelt congratulations and
So - nationwide, what agencies other than CDF and USFS field Type I
||For those who are interested in the Klamath Fire News (California). This
event is only a couple of months early.
||Brush Operations With Hand Crews. Very interesting reading from Chief R.
D. Neamy, Deputy Chief, Bureau of Emergency Services for the Los Angeles
City Fire Department. Follow the link.
||John, I read some of the article you posted. Personally I don't give
them much of a chance at all. I worked with some Army personnel in Idaho
and Montana last year. We had I Black hawk helicopters in Burgos and the
thing about it was, they wouldn't drop there water if they even saw one
yellow, red, or whatever color helmet on the ground. Now, you mean to tell
me that when I'm calling in a water drop, my crew and I have to leave the
area? Don't think so. They should leave the fire fighting to the
professionals, air or ground.
||Hi, just came across your site, and wondering if you have any pictures
of the Tatanka Fire Crew from S.D., Custer. My son was a crew member under
Jeff Geof, for the last 2 years. Name is Willie McDarment Jr. (Lil Will)
as his Dad is Big Will Sr. and works for the Sequoia Hot Springs District
here in Porterville, CA. The site is awesome, and I plan to use some of
the pics as my screen saver. Well gotta go for now, keep in touch, I will
probably be looking at this site often. Keep up the good work and my
prayers go out to each and every one of you that you all do a good job and
arrive home safely.
We have a tatanka hs logo on the logo3 page. Perhaps someone (the
person who sent in the logo?) will send in some tatanka hs photos. Ab.
||My wife teaches a course in fire time keeping. She is looking for a 15
to 30 second movie of an active flame front to place in a Power Point
Do you have any leads where we might get a mpeg or avi movie?
I have put a call into NIFC for some help but have not heard back.
Welcome to the board, David. Readers, any help? Ab.
||Since becoming somewhat computer literate, I have read the "They
said" column almost daily. You have a great site Ab, please keep up
the good work !
Now to the good stuff .... Any PA. firefighters out there that were on
the Camp Kline fire this week (May 7,8,9.... or as long as DCNR dicks
around with it ) notice the cluster---- the bureau was running up there?
Well guess what guys ? While we were out bustin ass for our measly 3 bucks
an hour ( yes thats right readers! ) the state boys were collecting their
OT and the bean counters were at work screwin the crews ! Rumor has it (
from a reliable source I might add ) that all the crews out there who
depend on fire season to finance crew operating expenses ( never mind
paying for equipment, training, and personal protective gear - you can
sell pizzas for that ) may not be coming at all !!!! The Commonwealth has
apparently decided that we all do this for practice! You guys think about
it, We do the work , un-f---- their so called "fire suppression
effort" and most of us, if not all of us get not one red cent
!!!!!! Well I say screw'um!!!!!!!! Wildland crews in PA get NO support
from DCNR! WE pay the cost, not only in dollars, but time away from loved
ones and our full time jobs and businesses. Try to get funding from the
Commonwealth and it all falls on deaf ears !! Someone needs to make a
stand, be OUR voice, so the elected officials get the message LOUD and
CLEAR, NO MORE FREE RIDE!!!! Get your fat asses out there and protect our
natural resources! It would seem to this firefighter that the Commonwealth
isn't gonna buy the cow when the milk is free!!!! Next time they call
crews, tell'um to pound sand!!!! If we don't, we can count on more of the
same bullshit thats been going on for too long ! I have lots of ammo left
Ab, lets see if any of these jerks from DCNR or the Commonwealth respond !
Are there any other PA firefighters out there that feel the same way?
Tired of it in Pa.
I haven't posted for awhile, mostly because of a lack of time, not a
lack of interest. But, the recent discussion compels me to say
I've had a chance to see the evolution of the discussion about Type I
and Type II "stuff". I say "stuff" because the
"Type" and "Kind" of "stuff" is based on
"minimum standards" and qualifications. But being
"Typed" I or II doesn't necessarily indicate
I'm glad I didn't get wrapped up in this discussion earlier. I can see
how I could have easily had a different perspective than I have today. Now
that I've had a chance to read ALL the comments (to this point), I have to
say I'm really proud to see the discussion evolve to the bigger picture.
So, what's the bigger picture you ask? The bigger picture is that we
are all in this business TOGETHER. Our work is not a
"one-size-fits-all" business. We need different
"types" and "kinds" of resources, and different
capabilities to get the WHOLE JOB done.
As for the specific Type I vs. Type II discussion...
I have been in this business for 24 years, and have served as a ground
pounder, worked in an EOC, been a member of the militia, and have been an
advisor to management on fire administration.
I have seen Type I "resources" who were damn good, and some
that weren't. I've seen Type II "resources" who were damn good,
and some that weren't. One of the things that happens when we
"type" resources is that it can *sometimes* create a sense of
I have been blessed to work for some of the TRUE Fire Gods in the
history of our business. The thing I value about these people is they had
all these traits in common:
I could make a longer list, but I think I've made my point.
- GLOBAL respect from their peers as well as those who worked under
- They reflect "quiet competence". In other words, the
behavior they display is humble, professional, competent, and they
never have to TELL you how great they were. You can see the quality of
their character and their skill by how they do their work.
- They care about the "greater good" more than they care
- They create an environment where it was OK to take a (reasonable)
risk. Those that take these risks are praised for their successes.
Those who aren't always successful are encouraged to learn from the
lessons of their failures.
- They never lose an opportunity to mentor; yet don't know they are
doing it most of the time. They're just sharing...
Think back on someone you consider GOOD at what they do (did). I bet
you will see most (if not all) these traits in the people you think about.
These qualities mean more to me than whether they're a Type I or Type II
(Feisty Old Broad Still In Fire)
Welcome back FOBSIF. We've missed your sage comments here, but
understand the time constraints. One other thing I would add to your list
is that such leaders are able to put the "we're better than you"
competition into the proper perspective when it comes up. Competition has
its place as Bear mentions, but can be limiting. Ab.
||Hello, my name is Chris Hilleke.
I want to work hard suppressing, preventing and controlling wildland
fires as a fire tech this summer! What are my chances of getting work for
a period that is less than 4 months as a temporary or seasonal fire tech?
I have not begun the application process and would like some leads on
where to find the kind of arrangement mentioned above.
I have five years of volunteer firefighting experience (West Nyack, New
York - Duncanville, Alabama - Milton, Florida) Most of my experience is
related to fire suppression at structural incidents but I do have brush
fire experience, mostly with the crews in Florida and Alabama. I also
served in an Air Force organization called Civil Air Patrol (CAP) and was
on ground teams that performed search and rescue operations and have
experince gained through Army ROTC (Universtiy of Alabama) and CAP with
ground to air coordination (med evac and spotting). Am very proficcient in
Land Navigation. I have a wide variety of certification, mostly obtained
in New York ranging from car fires, incident command system training,
extrication, haz mat and did complete Rockland Coutny Firefighting
Essentials training which was a thirteen week, 130-hour curriculum with
hands on and classroom instruction. I also have a B.S. in
Telecommunications and Film from the University of Alabama.
How will this experince be considered and stack with other applicants?
Is their a service area that has a high turnover and would be looking
for temporary fire techs and how do I contact them in a direct manner?
If I did get hired for this season or the next what kind of wage would
be reasonable to expect?
I guess I know that I am going to have to move fast to pull this off
and would like advice on how to talk to the right people and not just
become another application on file. In short, how can I increase my
chances of being considered seriously for work this season?
One item not covered in the your fuels reduction post is WEATHER. It
has been my experience that folks burn on marginal days to meet targets,
and then the wind kicks up and away we go. If for some reason an area is
unusually wet it makes meeting your targets very hard, and someone gets
dinged for it, but on the other hand, if they lose a PB no one seems to
get dinged very hard.
Congress must understand that there are times that burning targets CAN
NOT be done safely and targets won't get met because of weather.
||I am a wildland firefighter, I have a webpage about - what else? Me,
fire and tons of pictures, with more to come. Here are a few pictures of
FL fire. I also have some pictures of the Florida DOF Cobra.
I worked this year with Brainerd's Firehawk on an island restoration
project of the Pelican Island NWR. Well like I said, I have tons of
pictures and more on my CPU so if anyone is interested in the ones of the
Firehawk and the three yard hoppers we used to haul the rock out to the
island just email me. OBTW the hopper used NO2 I believe to operate it so
he would just fly over where we needed it dropped, and would release, this
was actually very precise once we got it down. I think I have over 95
pictures from that project.
See you all out on the line I am sure...
Welcome Josh and thanks very much. We don't have many photos of
Florida burning. Readers, I put photos of cypress and palmetto burning and
of a ff burning out on the Fire
5 page and the two photos of the FL-DOF Cobra helicopter on the Heli
If you want higher resolution photos, contact Josh.
Here's a picture for your files. Taken last year on a Rx burn outside
of McCloud, CA............
Thanks, posted it on Fire
5. Glad some burning got done. We need more.
Also got some photos - superscooper and spike camp - from a team
fighting fire in Canada. Thanks Marie. Scooper is on AirTanker
2. We made a new page "Camp"
for the camp photos. Your favorite camp photos... Send 'em in.
||Smoke jumpers practice deploying fire shelters behind a DC-3 to simulate
the wind in a blowup.
||Chief of the FS, Bosworth, spoke before the Senate Committee on Energy
and Natural Resources yesterday. He made this opening statement and then
on FY 2002 Budget
I was glad to see him saying that the money needed to get to the
ground. I was surprised at how adamant the senators were that fuel
reductions *must occur* on forests -- 32 million acres of forests, or 39
million acres including the ones that burned last summer.
One senator said that three obstacles stand in the way of getting on
with reducing fuel loading:
- the numbers of lumber companies with equipment to do the work have
- there is little use for the small diameter stuff that needs to be
- the process of getting to the point of thinning is cumbersome
because of a small group of extreme environmentalists who throw up
litigation blocks at every step of the way.
The public does not know that for every dollar spent to reduce fuel
loading, we save $7 on the large fires requiring IMT efforts. Emma should
go a little further with her discussion of fire costs. The key is to be
proactive in dealing with fuels so as to reduce the incidence of large
fires. A formidable task...
||Ab has caught up with posting most of the photos and logos - there
are quite a few. We still have several more logos and a very few other
photos to do. Thanks for your patience, everyone, and thanks for your
contributions. The messages that came with the photos can be found by
clicking on the link below the photo. That'll take you to the photo
We have one or more new photos on fire5,
JT, your photo didn't come through either time. Maybe it's too large
for hotmail. Countryman, only one of your three multiple photos made it.
Those we got of the airtanker drops were very nice. EC, we didn't get
yours photo either. Hope you all try again.
With luck we got everone's logos. I may have misplaced one, so if yours
isn't here, please resend it.
Thanks again, contributors.
||Haw, haw, haw. What a topic. Type I versus Type II handcrews. The only
people who would try and compare individual types of crews from around the
nation, let alone the world occupy one of two catagories, idiots or
ignorant fools. To broaden the foolish discussion, it doesn't matter if
you are comparing hotshot crews to each other, helitack crews to hotshots,
or engine crews to helitack crews.
I've not been on a hotshot crew as a full time member, but I've
responded to fires with them before and after normal fire seasons as a
module leader and a squad boss. I've supervised engine, helitack, and
initial attack 10 person hand crews for many a year. My crews have cut
line behind, bumped in front of, and had others bump past, countless times
over my 19 years on suppression crews. You know what? Each crew was
different. Each crew did exactly as they were trained and instructed to
do. I think I even remember having my crew throw dirt on that ignorant old
Emma's crew as they lay sleeping under the pines on one fire. Might as
well bury that worthless bunch of leaderless wannabe. . .
Lest I forget myself and wonder, my arguement here is, that unless you
know where the crew you are following/leading on the fireline came from
and what they have been doing for the last week, you lack necessary
information needed to compare yourself against them. Even if two seemingly
identical sets of crews arrived on the fire well rested, you probably
don't know their experience level compared to yours. Is this your crews
second fire? Has the nearest crew you compete against (cut line with)
already experienced ten fires? They'll probably kick your butt and be
safer in the process.
Kelly said it well regarding crews and the pride they must have in
themselves and their abilities. There is, with every knowledgable
supervisor, an inherent desire to instill in their crews the desire to be
the best at what they do. The fundamental requirement of all firefighters
should be the ability to produce quality line construction. Anytime,
The existing human desire to excell (in most of us) is normally enough
of a basis for a talented supervisor to mold their individual crewmembers
into a team willing to rise to the challenge of kicking an identical teams
(or anyone else's) collective butts. Quality leadership supported by a
collective crew effort is the nucleus of any firefighting crew.
Handline, hoselays, helipads, hover-hookups, it just doesn't matter.
Any singular comparison between two adjoining crews on a fireline is
subjective from any observation OR perspective. Then again, how else might
a crew determine their efficiency or abilities lest they compare
themselves against the nearest similar resource?
Now, if you want a real competition, let's set some standards and have
a big old get-together wherein we have the best of the best get together
and have some head-on competition. Course, the government wouldn't ever
sponsor such an event. Way too many liabilities, costs and such. Each crew
would have to pay their own way.
Wildlandfire.com presents "The World Championship Challenge of
Wildland Firefighters". I want the exclusive rights to sell t-shirts
and beer! I even have a place in mind to host such an event.
Haw, haw, haw, and kiss my fuzzy butt! I've kicked many of yers, and
had my own kicked! By some of the best!
The military fly-boys are trying to take over. What chance do you give
them? Check it out:
||Hey Stiff Boots,
After my rebuild, my whites were stiffer than a board. I filled them
with just-off-the-stove-boiling-water, then let them set for 5 minutes,
dump em' out then where them dry(after they cool down a bit), then oil the
crap out of them. Pecards is a great oil to use, but anything will work,
as long as you are as liberal with the oil as the democrats are with your
tax dollars...... er..... welll.... maybe not THAT liberal.
Well, its getting almost as dry as august here on the eastern sierra,
and after what I heard from my friend about the conditions back east... I
believe that its going to be a banner year for OT..... stay safe everyone
Beigefoot (the name is a looooong story........)
||-- The rotorheads responded in print to the Washington Post, offering an
opinion somewhat different from Emma's.
||The jobs page and series 462 and 455 are updated.
||LA Cnty Fire's Hawks:
OK. Now that a few other folk know about them permit me to state the
following: I attended the City's Fire Expo @ Dodger Stadium last Saturday
and had the opportunity to speak w/Lee (Cnty's Chief Pilot) re: Hawks. He
stated that Cnty has taken delivery of two, that they are in Denver being
configed to Cnty's spec's, would be numbered 18 & 20 and that the
Chief would make the decision as to where deployment would be. I guessed
that one each would go to Camp 9 (Santa Clarita) and Camp 2 (Oak Grove).
Two of the current roaster of 8 would be housed @ Barton as spares.
Now 2K1 fire season could prove to be a super opportunity for folks
w/digital video and still camers to get some really great aerials of da
Hawks flying various incidents. And look for fires to be cooled/contained
quicker w/the volume/turn around time for the Hawks.
For those of you w/a map of all of LA Cnty take a look @ Helicopter
coverage as follows:
So now we're looking @ 20 Helicopters for the immediate LA Cnty Area
including Forest. Let's not forget how quickly other agencies assets could
- 1 @ Chantry
- 1 @ Camp 2 Oak Grove (La Canada/Flintridge)
- 1 @ Whittier Hills
- 1 @ Camp 8 Malibu So. (Rambla Pacifia/Las Flores)
- 1 @ Camp 9 (Santa Clarita)
- 4 @ Barton w/new Hawks make that 6 (anyone want speculate as to
wheather or not Cnty would deploy 1 or more to inmate camps)?
- City's 6 @ Van Nuys (+ I believe City Trans Dept will provide an
unmarked bird during fire season if requested)
- Helitanker @ Van Nuys
You are missing all the fun back east. NJ is dry with fires everyday.
We have extreme fire days for the past 3 weeks. Div C has been on patrol
for the past 2 weeks and good old Hank has been earning his pay up in
section 11. Well, good luck on your new adventure and hopefully we can get
some good trips to the West this year. Oh yeh if your trying to figure out
who???? One of the Div - C sawyers on Kentucky trip of years past.
||OK, I can't resist, a little bit of scientific psychological insight
into the "ingroup-outgroup" Type I and Type II team discussion:
We humans categorize things because it is one way to reduce the mass of
information we're confronted with every day. Undoubtedly, being able to
categorize people and things into good and bad, pleasurable and dangerous,
friend and foe has been of selective advantage for our species, allowing
us to make important and potentially life-saving decisions more quickly.
The ability to automatically categorize and even to favor those whom we
see as our own group members is hard-wired into the human nervous system.
In one classic study, people were randomly assigned into two groups or
"teams". Thus members of the two groups were no different from
each other on any measurable characteristic. However, people were told
that they were in their particular group based on their music preference.
So everyone thought they belonged to their team because everyone on it
liked the same kind of music.
Individuals from the two groups then played games with each other and
won prizes. The winners were encouraged to give away their winnings to
whomever they chose. So, who did they give them to? Well, to their own
team members of course, even though this was not suggested, even though
people were arbitrarily placed on teams, and even though they knew their
team members no better than members of the other team. When participants
in the study rated all the other individuals in the study, who do you
think they thought were the best, smartest, cleverest, most insightful?
Why the members of their own group - even though their teammates were no
different from those of the other team on any characteristic.
We humans don't realize how automatically we engage in this
categorizing process. In a sense it is our greatest strength, in that it
allows us to function without sensory overload in a complex world.
However, in some circumstances it may be our greatest weakness, in that it
may limit us when flexibility and "thinking out of the box" - or
sharing ideas with folks who are not just like us - are to our best
The Professor (married to a Fire Ecologist)
Hats off to you Ab(s) for creating and supporting a forum that lets people
think outside of the box!
Why, thank you very much. Are you on my team? Ab.
EC you got me trying to figure out who you are ! if we played in
kentucky together then we did have a good time !!! despite all the bs
about type1 and type 2 crews, i am looking forward to eating smoke ( and
too many mre,s ) and battle the red dragon !!! i do hope we can get some
of the nj guys to fight fire in this neck of the woods. things are
definitly different here then the wharton state forest !!!! i think we
could use some power wagons here ! its drying out pretty quick and we will
have temps in the mid to upper 80s this week. well i better get off of
here before the wife starts nagging ( bought more fire toys today !!!! big
grin !! ) and she threatens me with going back to nj.
||Well I think the point to be made about the HS vs Jumpers vs Sliders vs
yada yada is that nobody likes to work with a jerk. It does not matter how
much you know or how much experience you have, if you are going to be an
A**hole, folks will not want to work with you again.
What has the world become, eh? Last time I checked, it wasn't within
OSHA or NFPA regs to wallow around in slop in your PPE... so, I'm gonna
throw my pup's two-cents in and see if maybe it'll help..
Fellow firefighters, might I ask you why we are discussing the Type
1/Type 2 'efficiency' topic? It serves little to no purpose, except for
making this page a hell of a lot longer to download for someone with a
Is it too late for someone to point out that all firefighting is a
fraternity (sorority for those who like political correctness)? Is it too
late for this young pup to try and nip your heels with his milking teeth
and tell you that you are all on the same side?
I would hope not.
Since I joined up with my local VFD I've been able to drill with them,
conduct equipment checks, and work on attaining my FF1 certification, of
which I am now finished and just waiting for the test score. I've met some
of the most enthusiastic people I have ever met, the people who when
needed will throw on the gear, and do the dirty work because someone needs
their help. They are able to cast aside their personal differences, their
prejudices, their attitudes.. They work together as a team. What's more,
is that even though we are only a volunteer department, I can tell that
every member of the department is a professional. How can I tell they are
professional? Because they do their job well, they interact well, they
operate in a clean manner. They don't berate each other outright unless it
is mutually known it is a round of festive joking.
I had thought that all firefighters were professional, whether they
wear silver haz-mat suits, turnout coats, bunker gear or the simple yellow
and green Nomex.. at one time I had thought that I would be ale to
absolutely trust any member of any fire department or agency or
orginization. That is, until I've read the recent flotsam here.
Truly, from my perspective I have to wonder how some of you have even
survived the various seasons with such large chips on your shoulders.
Disdain and disrespect have been the downfall of armies before, and they
certainly will be a downfall of the army of firefighters. I wonder how you
can efficiently put out the flames when you can't have the common decency
to realize that everyone out there shoveling dirt, driving rigs, dropping
retardant, plowing line... realize they are human, that you are human and
that no matter how macho you think you are, the fire is hot, it kills, and
most importantly... the fire doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care
wether you are Type 1, Type 2.. it doesn't care if you are a 'HotShot' or
an 'Engine Slug'... to the fire, you are just another fuel.
In closing I ask that you remeber that the fire is your enemy,
friends... so fight it, and not your fellow fireman.
Tiny, The R-6 Fire Pup
||Man!!! Enough with this Type 1 versus type 2 stuff. It's tearing apart
the fabric of our universe. That other person was right when they said
it's a result of lack of fires.
I liked LAVE's suggestion about the fire survivors show. Sounds better
than those other reality show's.
And in that spirit of eliminating waste of taxpayer's money, I have
There are a lot of network news crews in camp on large fires. That
translates into high media exposure, which advertisers pay huge sums of
money for. The I.C. or information officer could wear a Pepsi ballcap and
a NIKE jacket while they were being interviewed by CNN. Then sell
endorsements to national restaurant chains like Red lobster or sizzler. In
exchange for being "The official food of wildland firefighters",
the restaurant could handle the catering, free of charge.( Hmmmm, I can
taste those lobster omelets already)
Of course theirs always the danger of some pencil pusher in DC giving
the food endorsements to arby's or macdonalds. Point is, things like that
could generate money to offset the cost of the suppressing the fire. Heck,
fire might even make money. But that's what we're about, positive
solutions to real problems.
Seriously though, A friend of mine who works for BLM, tells me that
early every season, BLM puts all their engine crews in R-5 through
proficiency inspections. I hear that they are video taped while performing
hoselays, among other things. It sounds like a great system for
maintaining high standards. Why isn't this being done on a national and
interagency level? When contract engines are certified in the spring by an
agency rep, do they even see if It'll squirt water?
The reason I bring it up is because every year there seems to be less
qualified engine bosses who are savvy to engine operations. Especially
once you get out of California. (This is not ment as a slam on those
outside of R-5. They're just more anal about that stuff in Calif.) I
watched a couple of F.S. engines last year in Idaho that didn't know how
to do basic mop up with garden hose. They burned up a lot of hose. They
were very conscientious people and hard workers, They had just never been
taught how to do it right.
Just my opinion,
||If McCoglan couldn't make any money from his "Elkbath" photo,
why should Brown make money from an article she wrote?
I am not defending Brown's article in any way, shape or form.
However, if she doesn't work for the government full-time, no one has a
right to say what she does on her own time. If she is full-time, what she
does on her evenings and weekends is her own business. On another note,
articles do not pay much. One article I did on fire that was much longer
and more involved than her article paid all of $200. I don't think that
she's making much money. Ab.
I have had massive computer problems for the past week or so, and I'm
kinda out of the loop right now. I'm looking for something and can't find
it. What I need, is some old or new FSS Ganzier Packs with or without hose
(preferably without). They don't have to be in perfect condition, but not
out of service or close to it. If anyone can help or knows of anyone who
has some please let me know. I would probally buy them from you. Thanx!
||re: IHC argument
from a rookie, this looks very bad. Isn't the idea to work towards a
common goal? I had a class that was taught by the overhead of a shot crew.
Sure they had there quips and comments, but they also made it clear that
that was their opinion and regardless of what they said, we all are
important. Another thing that was told to the class, that sticks out in
this situation: try it for a season, learn about the job. It may not be
your thing but you'll know what they do. If it's not your thing, I think
you should respect those folks even more because they are doing a job you
don't want to. As for guys like me who will be working their first season,
you are setting a bad example (those causing the problems, and those
griping and not doing anything). You should teach us well, to work
together, to respect each other. Our lives depend on it.
||All the talk about Type 1 and Type 2 crews did we forget 2 things we are
all here to do a job and the other is we are all here because we love our
job. With all the moaning going on it sounds like we need fire season to
come to focus our minds back into our life of eating dirt breathing smoke
and dancing with fire.
Hey Davis how Ya making out new job doing good? Just an old friend from
back in SJ and one of the Kentucky runners of 2 years past.
||Sorry folks, but this debate/discussion/bashing of type 1's vs. type 2's
is getting nauseating and demeaning for this board. The only comment I'll
make is that because of all the variables involved, there will never be a
single or completely blanketing statement or answer to the issue. I will
use the comment given by someone along the lines of: What are YOU doing to
make things better?
OK, enough of that. On to another topic and hopefully an answer to my
I just received back a pair of Whites I had rebuilt. I think it's about
my fifth pair of Smokejumpers and I've had all of mine rebuilt at least
twice in my 8 years. The reason I bring up numbers is not to sound as if
I'm boasting (and I'm sure I pale in comparison to you other people) but
rather to point out that I've broken in new pairs and rebuilds before.
It would appear as if everything except for the tongue was replaced
(what a deal for $180!). But, I'm having a HELL of a time getting them
broken in. Any suggestions from you wise one's out there?
By the way, return for a pair of Whites being rebuilt is about 8 weeks
Signed: Stiff Boots in Idaho
||Re emma brown letter;
Again, a very interesting posting. Im interested in knowing if Emma had
such a problem with the money, why didn't she give back her paycheck? If
it was such a horrible time, a waste of money, time, etc, A full fledged
raping of the Government, then she should give up her paycheck, quit her
job, and go be a reporter with the newspaper. It sounds like thats what
she wants anyway, judgeing from her article. Its rather clear that she is
one of the filthy few who isn't in the game because she loves it, rather
there to stir the pot. I find it sad that she would sit there and record
all this, and still take the check. The handing out of various items issue
was absurd I guess she can't understand that you need to take care of
people. Period. If she was experienced at all, she would know people work
themselves into the ground, and should be taken care of. These folks are
not being forced to, rather CHOOSE to, and whats wrong with helping them
Another interesting item was the food. She should try eating crappy
food, then working your tail off. A Army works and fights on its stomach.
This has been common knowledge since the Romans. I agree with the dude who
said if she had a problem with the food, then she should bust into a MRE.
I know I am greatful for the good food after a week of MRE's, three times
I hope this lady doesn't return for this season, she ruins it for the
people who love to do this job. She should stay in the woods, and not go
on the fires if they're so bad. This may shock her, but its O.K. to say I
don't want to go on a fire, even with the Park Service.
Ya Know, the more I know about people, the less I kick my dog.
As usual well said. I agree 100% with your points. Now the folks
posting to this site need to move on to more "productive"
issues. Posting behind a moniker has always been a sore point with me.
take care and have a safe season,
Killer aka Tony Duprey, Los Padres HS
||The hotshot attitude discussion (and the octupus-like spawned
discussions on relative merits and non-merits of all sorts and types and
flavors of crews and personnel) reminds me of similar discussions I've had
over the years with people who claim that all cops are bad, evil, mean,
nasty, and overloaded with attitude.
Because I've had more than a handful of cop friends over the years, I
used to get mad and get engaged in that discussion. Now I just grin and
get amused. It takes a certain personality, a certain set of
characteristics and background, a certain group of skills and abilities,
to be a cop -- good cop, bad cop, any kind of cop.
It takes a certain personality, a certain set of characteristics, to be
a hotshot. There's a sort of quota of attitude that will make you or break
you as a hotshot. Part of that is aggressiveness, part of it's attitude,
part of it's the willingness to get beat up bad in training, physical
abuse, challenging physical/mental/emotional situations, the willingness
to face truly shitty situations and come on grinning: YEAH GIMME SOME MORE
ABUSE, I'M UP TO IT!
To a certain extent, this is true of all firefighters, and particularly
the jumpers and sliders and 'shots. It's *really* true of the long-timers.
You're either going to make it in fire or you're not. You have to actually
enjoy challenge, you have to get a rush of "yes I can" when
people say you can't. You have to really care about doing the right thing
despite all the signals that you're doing the wrong thing. (For example: I
could be home watching "Survivor" and drinking a beer and
grilling a ribeye, but oh no, I'm out here eating dirt and sucking smoke
and yes it's for a good reason even if I can't explain it to my parents
and my buddies. Even if my parents and my partner and kids and best buds
give me eternal trouble about it, I know this is The Right Thing.)
The leapers and the 'shots and the sliders and everyone else just love
to pick on each other. Picking on each other, namecalling and pissing and
whining and moaning and kicking, is part of the FRATERNITY, okay? Part of
the attitude, which is necessary, is a certain sense of "WE ARE THE
BEST" and "we are as good as it gets."
Everyone who works in fire is as good as it gets. If that were not
true, then fire would not be as good as it gets, and we know it is. Okay?
||hey ab and all !
once again a subject has started a fire storm on here. both sides has
good points and bad ones. i know i sound like i am riding the fence on
this. as someone who has worked and will continue to work on a type 2
crew, i have seen the good, bad and the ugly in all types of crews. nobody
is perfect. you can run the best crew and have one clown screw it up for
all. its life. all we can do is the best we can under the circumstances.
sometimes i think we need to focus our energies at the ones who make our
job harder than it needs to be, management. those of us who toil out in
the field need to stick together. stop all the petty bs. until we knock
off the name calling, bitching, and attitudes, we will never get what we
deserve. i have to remind myself where i came from and where i am going.
the grass isnt always greener on the other side. lets all relax and have a
ass kicking fire season !!!!
||Been sit'n back and watching what's been going on in "They
Said" and got to throw in my thoughts, for what ever it's worth. This
dis-cuss'n about Type I and Type II's and which is better or gets
preferential treatment, sound like a bunch of us Structural Dudes.
Which is better, Volunteer Fire Fighters or Full-time Fire Fighters?
Now I won't go there either! I can say that I have seen both. Just like in
the wildland sitting, is a Type I better than a Type II? I guess I have
been lucky, I was once on a Type II where we worked close with our
assigned Division Sup, which thought we were a Hot Shot Crew, it was a
real good day. Then I've been on yet another Type II where I wanted to run
away and hide, one of them real bad days where nothing went right.
Just remember when you get upset: The only person I have to be better
than or impress is MYSELF. Guess the same might hold true with a crew's
attitude and their crew boss's ability to keep it together. A 'Wink' can
do alot more work than a 'Whine'.
||Well Ms. Brown's article just came out in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette
in Little Rock. Seems that most papers treat a subjective article as
||Re the shot bashing:
I have been reading with interest the latest round of postings, and am
going to get on my soapbox for a moment . First with the 'Shot issue, this
has been going on for ages, one crew is better then the other, etc. It is
wrong for the type 2 dude to class all shot crews as the same, just
because he had a bad time with one doesn't mean we are all that way. I
could turn around and say that all Type 2's and such are worthless, and
should go home and leave the fires to the shots, but IM NOT. Truth is
there are some very good type 2 crews out there, and some that are not,
same with Shots, helitack, engines, teams, etc, etc. Its Life. We are all
out there to get the job done, and fight the fire. Sure attitude does get
thrown out there, but don't most firefighters have the Can-do attitude?
Most that I have met are. What did you do to improve the sitituation, I
wonder. Did you bring it up with the sup, or did you just let things lay?
How many times have you flown while others hiked? Isn't it up to the teams
who fly? I don't remember any rule in the IHOG that says all shot crews
must hike in, because they're shots. Isn't it about fighting the fire?
Shot crews are still, at least in my opinion something to work up to,
Goals in young FF's minds, the same as Jumpers, etc. (I can hear the
groans already, a shot saying something good about jumping.) A lot of
folks on shot crews have been around for a while, have some higher
training, etc. But all them were at one point on a type 2 crew. We need
everybody out there, helitack, shots, jumpers, etc. Again I bring up its
life, and its too bad that your typing a group based on one expierence,
and that there are some out there who's attiudes could improve. In the
words of one Rodney King, " Can't we all just get along?????"
Lets just have a good season, stay safe, and leave the bashing at the
bars, with the empty beer bottles.
||First let me say this is the first time I have looked at this
site...very good. Some wonder why the agencies do not have something like
this for internal use...because it would cause some uproar and not be
politically correct. What more can you say....
I think no matter what your job is while on a fire the first thing you
must do is understand what the common results are...and that everyone has
a job to do some are more experienced then others, a fact of life folks so
get on with it. Those who have more experience have a responsibility to
share and transfer that knowledge to others no matter what the situation.
Not to transfer that knowledge, in my opinon means there really is not
room for you in the fire fighting arena.
I have to say that managers must give better direction and clear
instructions to the line and support areas to make sure the daily
accomplishment is understood and everyone knows what is expected. We fail
in this area and the Division sups get the blame...not all their
fault...so those who receive instructions and they are not clear have a
responsibility to speak up and ask those questions to get the instructions
clear...those who give the instructions must take the time to make sure
all are understood.
To me an easy solution to some of the problems....but then you know
what the fire goes out....eventually.......I wanted to comment on the
discussion of a " Hotshot " super lecturing a division
supervisor..the bottom line is that DIVS is responsible not the Hotshot
sup....so HS soups get a grip and do your part in teaching and cover that
self made glow......your just a firefighter and nothing more....just like
the rest of the people working...do your job and let the others do
You should have received a letter back from Boise about a month after
you've sent your application in listing all your responses to the
questions on the application. Unfortunately, a couple of my friends that
also sent APS into Boise did not receive a letter of confirmation that the
application had been received. I think they might have had a few problems
this year, thankfully they got mine. If I were you I would do what I told
my friends to do and contact San Bernardino NF personnel as soon as
possible. It might not be too late, but your running out of time. Good
||My, my, my, all this slamming of the brother hotshots! Do I detect a
trace of jealousy or perhaps insecurity? Keep smiling folks....and do the
best job you can.
an old hotshot......killer
||regarding the current hotshot crew bashing ...
to chastise all hotshot crews as "aloof", egocentric,
"prima donas", etc. is wrong!
if you have a complaint involving specific hotshot crews and/or
superintendents you need to;
- document the issues/problems while the crew is on the incident or
- speak directly with the superintendent, at an appropriate time, prior to
the crews demobe,
- follow up with a discussion with the crews host unit supervisor, if
better yet, if you want to help improve the hotshot crews, get involved
with the hotshot steering committee group in your geographical area.
posting on this board behind a moniker is a cheap shot and does little
towards making the hotshot crew program better.
Larry, thanks for writing in. Involvement is always the best
course... But, don't you be taking a cheap shot at this "board"
ya hear! We get enough of that from the WO! AArgh, too early! It's good
the other Abs aren't awake yet or they'd probably be throwing in their two
cents worth on this one. We Abs had a reunion/barbique/party yesterday and
most are still sleeping it off. I drew the short straw.... Ab.
||Personally I think Hotshot crews are very good and well trained crews.
However, I do agree they ( when I say they, I mean most, not all ) have a
huge ego problem. They treat other crews, both type 2 hand crews and
engine crews like dirt and sometimes worse. I am on a type 2 crew, by
choice, not by not enough experience or anything. The reason I chose to go
type 2 was better money. This job isn't supposed to be about money, at
least to me, but I have made a career out of wildland firefighting.
Now, on more then one occasion my type 2 crew not only had more
experience then a shot crew or two, but we out preformed them and were ,
believe it or not, in better shape. With us out performing them, they got
really pissed off at us and actually, after the fire, tried to fight with
my crew. Now, I believe at one time Hotshots were truly a step above the
rest, both in physical and professional ways. However, somewhere along the
line that went to peoples heads and now they have the whole
My opinion, we are all there to do the same job. Don't dog a crew if
they have less experience then you for we all started somewhere. And if by
chance they are out performing you, think of it as a friendly competition
to make time go by. Don't sit there and knock other crews just because
they are type 2 or whatever. You will accomplish nothing more then showing
people how much of an ass you are.
||Ab, the call was out today for rotor types for Florida and NC, yesterday
NIFC was looking for ASGS (T) and ATGS (T). Lots of the requests went
unfilled for various reasons. Also, requests are out for crews to assist
in RX burns, those orders are not always being filled also. Things are
starting to "heat" up.
||In response to DEEFAMO and Capital crew boss;
I find a lot of wisdom in DEEFAMO's words and commend them to the shots
who read this. Mainly because we agree for the most part. I too have
watched with dismay as the "the attitude", as I call it, has
gotten worse and worse. IHC's (I will capitalize) are fine fire crews,
don't get me wrong, but the aloof, "we are better than you"
attitude, the "we can't interact with you scum" attitude does
get a bit old. I am not sure if some of the IHC folks understand that is
how they come off, but they do. If a fire gets tough, who am I gonna call?
Type I of course. Part of the culture that makes an IHC work is the
certain knowledge that your crew is the best. Of course when I was one, we
were the best. But that doesn't mean that the other folks in yellow are
not fine folks worthy of respect, they simply have a different skill set.
I was embarrassed to observe an incident where an IHC Sup lectured his
DIVS for about 10 minutes having arrived on the fire about 10 minutes
before that, showed little respect for the man and was dead wrong! The
DIVS just tiredly and patiently listened (I would have lasted bout 3
minutes in that situation), the crew ended up sullenly doing what they
were assigned anyway, I had a nice chat with one of the foremen later and
he was a bit embarrassed by the deal. Turns out the local guys kinda knew
the local fuels, weather and topography better than the Sup. who I believe
was in that country for the first time. I chalked it up to being tired as
we all were, but still........?
Capital Crew Boss - well, others have said it. I suggest a new line of
||Sorry about the caps. But iam seeing exactly what i described with alot
of Type 1 crews the last several seasons. By the way, worker, i have also
worked rigth along with many shot crews. I hope you do your part to stop a
trend that is not good. I am not sorry if i offended you, it just means
you are too sensitive or maybe i was to close to home. In fact, i have
several crew performance reports that say " this crew outperformed
several type i crews". Would you like to see them?
Capital crew boss
||Re: The Washington Post Article:
Having served 24 years in the federal wildland fire service I applaud
many of the points that Ms.Brown mentioned in her article. There is no
excuse for squandering the nation's wealth upon wasteful tactics. I will
always welcome the fresh views of people such as Ms. Brown. I believe that
the public should always be involved in the workings of their government.
Having said that, I believe that it is important to shed a little light
upon the context in which this business of fire management is conducted.
Wildland fire suppression is conducted in an environment that is much the
same as warfare. If these situations were totally predictable and
conducted within a political vacuum, we would have no problem managing
logistics, strategies and tactics. We could passively manage all fires for
the benefit of mankind and the earth.
With regard to sitting around, any wildfire tactician with any
experience at all is going to provide a thorough reconnaissance before he
or she commits firefighters to any tactical situation. At the micro level,
it can often be more cost effective and safer to have a fire crew
"sitting around", than it would be to redeploy that crew time
after time in the wrong place.. Simply put- one does not jerk a crew
around just to keep them occupied. This applies to the macro level as
well. If the conditions warrant, resources need to be moved up and staged-
even if that means that crews are dispatched across the country, only to
sit and wait for a deployment. The trick is to catch fires while they are
small. Then the landscape can be treated in a controlled manner through a
future prescribed fire.
Along with thorough reconnaissance comes the need for proper timing and
sequencing of tactical actions. This requires that the tactician
anticipate the logistical needs and the performance of any given resource.
The tactician needs to have a good grasp of fire weather and behavior.
Experience provides this knowledge. Experience also provides a good grasp
of sound fireline economics. Experienced fire managers do a better job at
managing costs because they understand the capabilities of the resources
that they manage.
So what happened to the ranks of America's professional fire managers?
To answer that question one simply needs to look at the demographics
within the federal wildland fire agencies. There is a glaring gap that
started in 1980 and lasted over 15 years. The present shortage of
experienced firefighters was due in large part to the past efforts of
politicians, who's primary agenda was to show that they were tough on
government waste. If any human endeavor, whether that endeavor be
government or business, were to limit the number of young employees to the
extent that the federal government did during the 1980's and early 1990's,
I bet that they would be a little short on experience as well. Simply put
-you get what you pay for.
I fully support the notion of weighing the cost and benefits of
suppression actions. Yes I have seen many situations where resources were
deployed for show. The problem here is that one person's "show"
is another person's critical presence. As a fire manager I can only offer
my professional advice, based upon my experience and judgment, whether
resources should be deployed or not. I will continue to err on the side of
safety. If a local community demands the presence of my resources, I will
offer my advice. In the end I will be bound by the direction that I
receive from the public that I serve.
I am sorry if Ms. Brown thought that she was paid too much for her
efforts. She always has the option of donating her salary to a worthy
cause. When I started fighting fire I was paid $2.57 per hour. I received
few benefits and worked hard. I climbed up and down 60% slopes and most of
the time I didn't whine. In the winter I found other work. Ms. Brown's
complaints of mopping up in the rain brought a smile to my face. I wish I
had a dollar for every time I mopped up in the rain. Unless the rain was a
"season ending event" (usually by October in the West), it would
always stop and the smokes would pop up within an hour or so of drying. In
the end it's better to complete the job than be redeployed later, under
With regard to "smiling teenagers handing out boot grease, liquid
soap, metal files, throwaway bath towels or whatever other goodies"
without a sense of limit. I say that in a nation where pet food sales
number in the billions of dollars and the three martini lunch serves as a
tax deduction, I will continue to provide for the welfare of my
firefighters from their heads right down to their little toes. If that
means salmon and 4 types of desert at dinner time -so be it. I remember
many times in my career when we slept in the dirt with only the clothes on
our backs. Those unsavory times when the food never arrived, we ran out of
hot drinking water and the fire jumped our firelines faster than we could
construct fireline. I suppose that I am one of those "longtime
firefighters" that Ms. Brown referred to, "who love what they do
are fierce about putting out flames, and they are used to having ample
resources to do their job". I love what I do, I am practical about
managing flames and I demand to have ample resources to do my job.
Ms. Brown stated that, "Most of us were there for the money, or
because we had been sent without choice." These two factors explain
rather vividly, the context in which Ms. Brown and many others have
operated in recent years. If one is involved in the fire service simply
for the money, then there is indeed no reason to extinguish a wildfire.
Why ignite prescribed fires if wildfires are so much more lucrative? I say
that career federal wildland firefighters are in this profession for
reasons that go well beyond money. As Ms. Brown illustrated, money alone
will not sustain a firefighter when they are cold or hot, soaking wet or
bored to tears. Something much deeper in the human spirit sustains a
person when times are hard. Something much deeper motivates a person to
manage fire upon the landscape for a living. When motivated career
firefighters have been in short supply, other employees have been called
upon. Ms. Brown stated that her crew had been "sent without
choice". If this is true, it is unfortunate, for no firefighter
should be on the fireline unless they want to be.
The views expressed here are my own. They are expressed as a taxpayer
and one who's life is intimately involved with the management of fire on
the landscape. In the end it is the duty of all citizens to oversee their
government in all it's endeavors, just as it is the duty of every civil
servant to discharge their duties honestly. I can understand Ms. Brown's
frustration with the limits we humans portray whenever we come together to
achieve any sort of common goal on a large scale. In retrospect federal
wildland firefighting agencies have been effective enough in their mission
to alter the ecosystems of millions of acres within the course of 80
years. These agencies succeeded in the mission that the American People
charged them with, under the conventional wisdom of the times.
Was it costly in the past? -Yes.
Is it costly now?-Yes.
Will it be costly in the future?- Yes.
Can we do a better job of controlling costs? -Yes
Indeed Ms. Brown you don't know the whole story- none of us do. But I
do know one thing for certain; this nation needs experienced, well trained
and well equipped firefighters and fire managers. We need dedicated
people, who understand how fire interacts with the landscape. We will not
be able to effectively restore fire dependent landscapes without this
expertise. The blind slashing of fire budgets results in bigger wildfires,
bigger wildfires are more expensive to manage. In the end taxpayers save
money when wildfires are kept small and prescribed fires are large where
possible. The choice is ours.
"The Other Side of the Coin." Or,
"You Get What You Pay For." Or,
"What Ms. Brown Missed in the Translation."
||In regards to Capital Crewboss.
I could have laughed outloud. Someone dared to question the type I crews.
Capital Crewboss hit it on the head. Has anyone read the notes from the
Hotshot Sup National Meeting. I wonder how they found a place to fit in
all those egos. Hopefully it was an open air arena.
Type I crews are without a doubt quality firefighters, I will never
question that. I am an alumni. But, I have moved on, I got my experience
and realized I did not want to run a pulaski for 20 years. Yeah, I am a
management puke now. I went from the shots to the jumpers to the district
(where the real work gets done!!!!!!!!!) If I was to make a general
statement it would be Type I crews are the folks you need if you have a
tough assignment. But, you need to balance that need with the BS you are
going to put with to have them on your incident. That is a hotshot
problem, and they need to figure it out. They are not god, they are a
quality outfit that is supposed to have a mission, just like army rangers
or green berets. That does not mean they get to run the outfit. They
accept the mission or they don't. Unfortunately the outfit lost track of
that and now we have all these folks (hotshot sups) who want to bad mouth
management but don't want to be any part of it. Well then you take what
Ab, I would encourage you to post the notes from the national ihc
meeting (and I left that in small characters for a reason) for all to
read. There is a time when ego gets in the way! These guys/gals get the
cream of the crop and have all the tenured overhead and then the poor guy
or gal that takes out a type 2 crew for 14 or 21 has to deal with all the
problems inherant with that assignment and he or she could be a GS
whatever. These guys and gals have the cream of the crop that they
personally selected and they are still whining. I find it unbelievable
that they want more training in personell and finance, holy cow! I thought
that is why they got the grades they have. If they cannot handle that
stuff then we are all being bamboozled. If there is a sup out there that
needs training in those areas, he or she should not be in the job. Gads,
they are PFT's what the hell are they doing in the winter??? Waiting for
personnell or B&F to come knock on their door and see if they might
want some training??? This is a real sore subject with me and I fully
expect to get blasted by the shot folks and their supporters. The fire
folks lost control of the shot crews years ago. They have a purpose, and
that purpose it to take care of the tough assignments. Unfortunately, they
bitch and whine and then work (that is a generalization), but hopefully
the crews will recognize that.
They have a national organization, so that is where this stuff needs to
be recognized. They don't want to do wildland fire use because they are
suppression folks, but then they don't want to do Rx fire because they
might miss a fire assignment.
Again, post the notes from the prima donna meeting and see what the
reaction is from the folks on the ground. The hotshots don't have work
unless we miss on the initial attack!! And now they might have to share
the wealth with the new Type I crews, but the new crews have to pass
muster with the established crews. Is the fox in the hen house?? I guess
that is enough. I will sit back and wait to get blasted by the ihc
community. But you ihc folks remember, I am not a voice in the wilderness,
but you can treat me that way if you want.
||Capital Crew Boss,
I know this is a forum for information sharing and at times venting,
but damn do you want a little cheese with that whine? 20 years as a Cat-II
CRWB hmmm what does that mean? Do you run a 20 person crew on a daily
basis or do you get called out when its your turn on the rotation? Either
way what you see in 20 years with a Cat-II crew a Hotshot crewperson will
see in 3 or 4 years. "MY crew is hiking while they are being
flown", blah blah blah, and semi-pro baseballers ride buses while the
pro's fly in jets. Only so many people can fly in a day, and lets be
realistic if your going to fly someone it will be your A-teams first. It's
life deal with it. I'm not saying you exaggerate but I'm calling B.S. on a
few of your statements. Get their tents flown in on a coyote type spike?
I've never seen it in 15 years with the shots. Paper bags if your lucky
and a hot meal if your realllllll lucky. 95% of the time it is a space
blanket and MRE's. 3 or more crewpeople to sling load gear "ALL"
day? What were they moving a Walmart storage room? 1 maybe 2 people, 3
sling loads at the most and oh yes that would enclude the tents.
One thing I do agree with you is there are primadonna crews out there,
but you know what there has always been primadonna crews, and some of
those "old timers" may have been apart of them. Times are
changing, either change with them or get the hell out of the way. Sounds
to me like your getting a litle long in tooth, maybe it's time to move on
or get your CRWB rating taken off your red card. The whining is contagious
so give it rest or better yet step up to the big league's and run with a
shot crew for a season or two(if you can handle the challenge, my guess is
you'll find an excuse why you can't). My crew averages about 30 fires a
year, multiplied by 15 years equals about 450 fires so far, and I still
love being in the game. I don't push my crew to be like any other crew,
just to be the best they can be.
Sign me, Worker Bee
I'm assuming you are referring to the San Bernardino National Forest
within the U.S. Forest Service. (When someone says "forestry" in
California, it could also mean CDF California Department of Forestry. But
I'll assume you mean the former.)
So, are you sure your application made it through the process in Boise?
If you are sure, then I would contact personnel in the San Bernardino
N.F.at the Supervisor's Office. If you don't have confirmation that your
application made it through the Boise process, then I would call Boise and
see what you need to do.
But I would get on this right away! Good Luck
||Series 462 and 455 are updated along with the jobs page listings. So
many jobs, so few qualified applicants.
||My name is Jeremy Mushinski and I sent in an application to San
Bernardino forestry agency a while back. I was wondering how to check on
the status of that application. If you could get back to me as soon as
possible I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
||Ab, Regarding the article from the Washington Post titled What Burns Me
About the Way We Fight Fires:
I have been waiting to see some posts regarding this, glad to see it
ticks off some other people too. The author is obviously one of those
individuals who has never made any mistakes in their life and everything
they have ever done has went exactly the way that they planned. Perhaps
she needs to spend some more time out on the lines getting experience to
learn that fires don't always follow the morning IAP and sometimes things
just don't go the way they are supposed to, such is the way of
||Notice from Clyde Thompson and Michael Rains about permanent FS
||After reading Emma Brown's article I could not help but think,
"yea, I could have wrote the same article 20 years ago after I had
logged enough seasons to be qualify as a critic." Waste, fraud,
abuse? Always has been. Downtime, waiting, staging, milling, smokin',
jokin', loli-gagging, hacky-sackin' and grab-assin'? Yep! Cruisers. users,
losers, milkers, slugs, whiners, nit-wits, mis-fits, bozo's and camp
potatoes? Yep! Hotline, burnout, close-call, near miss, scared witless,
smokin' nomex? You bet. Rained on, snowed on, shit on, dumped on slimed,
frozen, fried, baked, lost and forgotten? Yes indeed! Hungry, sick, sore,
blistered, filthy, stinking, sunkeneyed exhaustion? That to!
But, I never wrote an article and long ago learned to accept the
imperfections of large wildland fire management. (The only thing that
really tips me over is when the system fails to properly support the
line). So, while Emma's statements are accurate her points well taken, she
has simply reached lower level of consciousness. If she gave up the
wilderness patrol and became a full time wildland fire fighter she could
achieve full enlightenment and she would, no doubt, look back on her
Washington Post article with a grimace and a smile.
||Someone wrote in with a question about starting a bus contracting
business. Now I can't find it. To whomever that was, you might take a look
at WP's comments last March in response to someone else who asked the same
kind of question. It's in the 03/17 archive. If you have other questions,
please write in again.
Ab- Here's a link I stumbled on to, sounds like Maine, NH, VT are
seeing a bit of action. I thought they all had received lots of snow and
were supposed to have a wet spring in the east? Sounds like a turn in the
NJ had some fires last week. It's really quite dry in the east. The
sit report had fire weather warnings for northern CT, RI, and Mass, for
low RH and strong winds. Also were warnings for northern FL and parts of
southeast GA for the same kinds of conditions. Ab.
||BEEN A CREW BOSS FOR A CATEGORY 2 CREW FOR 20 YEARS AND FOR THE PAST FEW
SEASONS I HAVE BEEN GETTING FRUSTRATED ON HOW WE GET TREATED IN COMPARISON
TO THE TYPE 1 CREWS. FOR EXAMPLE WHILE MY CREW IS HIKING UP TO THE FIRE
THEY ARE GETTING FLOWN AND WE OFTEN BEAT THEM TO THE LINE ANYWAY. WHILE WE
HIKE BACK TO FIRE CAMP THEY GET THERE GEAR FLOWN TO THEM WITH TENTS, HOT
MEALS,SLEEPING BAGS, RED BAGS AND ALL.THEN WE DO IT AGAIN THE NEXT DAY
WHILE THEY ARE SAVED FROM THE HIKE IN. I WAS REALLY UPSET LAST YEAR WHEN
WE NEEDED BUCKET DROPS TO FIGHT FIRE BUT THE HELICOPTERS WERE TIED UP
MOVING THERE GEAR. I WAS APPALLED TO SEE WHAT TWO 'HOTSHOT' CREWS DID TO
THE LAND TO MAKE THEMSELVES COMFORTABLE FOR THE NIGHT. THEN THEY END UP
USING THREE OR MORE CREW MEMBERS ALL DAY MAKING SLING LOADS FOR THERE GEAR
INSTEAD OF PUTTING OUT FIRE. I USE TO ADMIRE AND PUSH MY CREWS TO TRY AND
REACH THE LEVEL OF SHOT CREWS BUT NOW THEY EMBARRASS ME. MIND YOU I AM NOT
TALKING ABOUT ALL SHOT CREWS. I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS WITH SOME OF THE OLD
TIMERS AND THEY AGREE THAT TOO MANY SHOT CREWS ARE PRIMADONNAS.
capital crew boss (moniker supplied by Ab)
A note from Ab: Posters, please don't yell at us. Capital letters
indicate yelling to those of us who work on the web. All cap messages are
difficult to read, as well. If you can't be bothered to exercise the shift
key, please use all small letters.
||Here's the link for the Oak Ridge Boys contribution.
Recording at the end of article
||Re Ms. Emma Brown's letter, I guess she was never in the right spot to
be one of the engine crews, hand crews, or air crews ( helitack or smoke
jumpers) that actually was the cavalry and arrived in the nick of time to
save the day. I have done that twice is eighteen years and it makes you
kinda forget about all that time you sat at the station or in staging
waiting and waiting, and training and waiting etc. . . I been on many a
wild goose chases to, but sometimes they actually use us for something
I really like Lucky's suggestions for saving money, with one more thing
added, we get CBS to film it and call it Fire Survivors( generate some
dollars too ), and the last person there gets a permanent job with the
fire department of your choice, not a million bucks.
Looks like fire season is rapping, gently tapping at the door. There is
one 500 acre fire in Mendocino County and several smaller ones in the last
couple of days. Here in Northern Cal., we have had a few windy days and
things are unseasonable warm so far, and we didn't get our normal amount
Took a firefighter safety class last Saturday from a B.C. from L.A.
County Fire, Bat. Chief John Harris, great speaker and very good program
if you get a chance to attend his presentation I think it was worth it.
All for now, keep safe and watch for the Dragon.
||Hi there -- just found your site a couple mos. ago...... good to get
opinions from all over -- helps keep everyone remember WHY we are here. I
think I can help on the quarter turn issue.... it is NOT going to happen
this year. People who proposed it didn't thoroughly think through the
expense and the amount of fittings it would affect. So -- don't go crazy
and buy adapters, or new fittings, etc. The reasoning behind the original
direction and the "halt" order can be directed to Kim
Christensen (the National Fire Equipment System chair) at 208-387-5400.
Welcome to the posting side of theysaid Cache Queen. Ab.
I read the article in the Washington Post and though I am a newbie I
have some knowledge from education and growing up around it (dad was a CDF
Capt.). I have to say that in my opinion that the author has some
legitimate points. I also have to agree with the author when she states at
the end of the article that she doesn't know the whole story. I believe
that if she could see it from some of the many other facets of wildland
fire suppression she may understand, or see some things different. That is
just my opinion. I'd like to hear what others think.
||I have a few things to say about that Washington Post article.
Apparently anybody with 2 months actual line experiance is considered
an expert by the Post. She was very shocked that people paid to fight
fires were hoping that more would break. Anybody that does that kind of
work realizes that they won't have a personal life for 6 months. You have
to compensate people for that if you want good ones. There's probaby
people out there willing to do it for less with no free lunch. But chances
are they don't speak english.
She also mentioned that she'd be willing to fight fire for free.
Anybody would, after all those gravy runs the author went on. I'd suggest
a 90 day detail to a south zone hotshot crew. (Might get lucky and last
until lunch time)
Last summer I heard the 19th stituation that shouts watch out. #19
"You notice the presence of poilticians and media becoming more
That, is why resources are staged in high visibilty areas during
periods of high fire activity, to re-asure the public.
Being an ex rotorhead, I took exception to her slamming of helitack. I
recall slinging up a few $100,000 outhouses in and out the backcountry on
behalf of the recreation program. Some of those lazy helislugs had to get
hepetitus shots because raw sewage spilled on them.
I was also wondering what her solution is to all that money being spent
You could just use MRE's for every meal. Although each MRE probably
cost more than a sack lunch, so that's not really an option. They could
declare all fire fighters temporarily exempt from fish and game laws while
working a fire. This would allow things like gillnetting of salmon and
shooting elk from helicopters and vehicles in order to feed the those
working the fire. It wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything.
To Abby, sorry I never got back to you about the Arcview extension that
you sent to me. It is excellent and it may be useful to all of the new
GIS/Fire folks that they are hiring these days. It might be worth posting
on the pc programs page.
Things are good here in R4, getting all the ducks in a row before the
Keep it up,
Catching up... If any of you GIS/Fire folks want a copy of this
Arcview extension, ask and I'll send it to you. It takes up a lot of space
on the server so I don't think we'll post it there right now. (This was
compliments of DM.)
Also available is a powerpoint from TC entitled WFSA 99 TRAINING
PPT.ppt. It is an introductory course for fire managers and line officers
that they will need to understand what the program is and what it does. I
will send this off to those who want it as well.
||Thanks All for the many responses. What follows is a sampling of e-mails
with the link:
Here's the link to that washington post article.
(In Case the link doesn't work, it's at www.washingtonpost.com; then do a
site search for fire, then scroll to April 29th, near the bottom.)
I'm attempting to keep many of my comments inside.......(sec)
Link! Also, he said "Ab - the readers of "They Said"
might find this dialogue real interesting from 'Firenet'. (Dick)
Ab sez, Got a link for that?
Here is the link for "What Really Burns Me About the Way We Fight
Here 'tis if you don't already have it. (Mellie)
Ab, Try this link: Washington post story, wildfire. (Lucky)
Here's the link for the "What burns me..." article that you
asked for... (Houston)
Hickman was just fullof links: in addition to the Washington Post link,
he sent another one: Smokey Says http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25410-2001Apr30.phpl
and On the Net: Wildland Fire Employment: http://www.doi.gov/fire
Oh, one report he sent in says that the Oak Ridge Boys are hep'n out
the wildland firefighting effort, "Country Crooners Fight
Got a link for that Hickman? This Ab is too jet lagged to muck around
much on the web right now.
AZ Trailblazer Tim sent the article out to everyone on his list,
NOT EVERYONE THINKS IT"S A SWEET DEAL. LINK BELOW TO WASH POST
ARTICLE. Hmmmmm................. (Dispatcher)
here is the link to that Washington Post Article. It is an excellent
article worth discussion. (Firepup21)
So, anyone want to comment on the article? Ab.
i am a 39yr old firefighter. i am redcarded as a engb, crwb, ICT-4,
E.M.T-I. i have 18 years exp in wildland and firelookouts. i am also
married and need work. i have been offered some fed jobs but i do not want
to move down south.. i am hoping a honest contractor may be able to use
me.. i live in the state of washington..
ready to work
||what a great web page, outstanding photos.
Thanks for stopping by. Come again. Ab.
We're getting a lot of mail that includes a reprint of the article
"What Burns Me About the Way We Fight Wildfires" Sunday April
29, Washington Post. I am willing to link to it for discussion sake if I
could find the place to link to. So far we've only gotten the text. Anyone
know of a link?
||Round three re-advertising a GS-7/26-0 Helishot Captain at Arroyo Grande
(Type 1 Helicopter) Los Padres N.F. Call Ted Mathiesen 805 481-1280 for
The choice is yours. But I would do some homework on each
position/location. Check to see which position might lead to the most
training, how active each is, available housing , how much project work is
normally done (not that it's a bad thing, but you don't want to go into a
situation where the fire crews are used primarily for stacking sticks vs.
being ready for I.A.), etc. If you haven't been to either place, it might
pay off to visit each place and meet the people. If you don't have the
time to spare and they are hounding you to make a decision, then flip a
coin and enjoy the season!
||Fire season is upon us all, very soon. Recently I went to your web site
to look up some info and came upon the photo archive of "Manter
Evac". That's my crew! We're in #01,02,03,04.(Not the
"orange guys") We were one of the first 5 crews to arrive. My
first fire season. We ran through flames to get that meadow about an hour
or two before those photos were taken, that was the day before my 33rd
birthday. It was an awsome experience.I have a pile of photos, of the
entire fire as well that EVAC.
Those guys in the orange gear are convict crews. They were in front of
us. Being a Swamper, my Sawyer and I were right behind them. When the
proverbial "SH-- hit the fan" we got seperated by about 200
yrds. from the rest of our crew. We saw the order was given to the con
crews to reteat down the escape route. Some CDF guy told us to follow. Not
everybody carries a radio. which was the case for us. I told the guy
"no way, not without my crew. Call my crew boss on tach 1. I'm going
back to get them."
My sawyer and I turned around and ran back to get our crew. We met up
with some of our guys about 100 yrds. back and passed the order,"We
lost it. Where's our crew boss?" We found him @ another 100 yrds back
with the rest of them. Relayed the message, organized and headed down the
escape route. 200 yrds to where I was working, we met a wall of flames.
Knees shaking, hands on our fire shelters, I think some of younger guys
in my crew met GOD at that moment. I certainly had a few words with him.
Our crew boss told us to hold, count out, make sure we are all here and he
waited. It seemed like days while he looked forward toward the flames.
Then all of the sudden he called out, "Get ready, ready to run."
And the flames opened a corrador like hallway about 6' wide, we ran!!!!
for uor lives.
My knees didn't stop shaking til after those helicopters picked us up.
Right before all that, I had the oportunity to work side by side with @
eight of those "orange" guys. All I can say is that I have the
utmost respect for them. We tried to handle the spot fires together, and
together we rejoiced in the meadow. "A good day in Hell was
As a 20 yr. Vol. F/F and a 25 yr. employee of a major fiberglass
building Insulation Manufacturer, I seriously doubt that any lung problems
that you may have had is not due to exposure to fiberglass insulation. I
am an hourly employee so don't try and tell me I am just singing the
company song. I to am worried that someday I might be wrong and find my
lungs are shot. Darren, PUT THE SMOKES DOWN AND STEP AWAY WITH YOUR LUNGS.
Good Luck. I think Norman had the best idea...
Nor Cal Dan
Dan, it's not clear with your double negatives. Do you think the
problem is fiberglass insulation or not? Ab.
||Montana State University, Billings, is going to offer a two-day course
(June 18-19) titled, "Trial by Fire: Smokejumpers and the Mann
Disaster: History of Fire Management and the Norman Maclean
Story." One day
in Missoula at the Smokejumper base, Region One Firelab, Aerial Fire
and one day at Mann Gulch. Their phone #s, 406-657-2203, 800-708-0068,