things are going good, expecting some heat inNorthern nevada all this week. play safe all, and have a goodone.

eric
pw

The Packtest is great for testing stamina and endurance for firefighters, however, we are seeing more and more firefighters come to medical w/ scars, kidney aches, and open ulcers or sores because of the pack test. The reason being- using piss pumps as weights and "forcing" or pushing the participants to get the best time. We have seen where some crews actually put more weight and shorten the time requirement so their crew can be "stronger" or better.

Lets not kill our guys!! As for the most part the crews are well taken care of and crew boss truly care about their crews.

Keep up the good work-- Y'all do a hell of a job :)
PB

I would like to throw my two cents in regarding the individual with diabetes. I am a hotshot foreman and have diabetes myself. I have only had diabetes for about five years, and like many others have had no problems. Doctors can only speculate the safety concerns regarding a person with diabetes that go on the fireline. Yet, it is solely up to the individual that has diabetes whether he or she can perform safely on the fireline. Most doctors simply go off of past medical records, and rarely consider the individuals comments and concerns. There are many firefighters with all kinds of medical conditions, some which are worse than diabetes. That still can perform the job effectively and safely. Which in my mind is the bottom line. The person that wrote about the ADA getting involved is right, lawyers would jump at an opportunity like this to fight for our rights. Regardless of what happens to the individual waiting upon the doctors word, I would like to be involved.

Virgil

The ‘Step Test” was developed by a Swedish doctor, Per-Olaf Astrand in the 50’s. It was noted at that time, in the 70’s, that the ‘Step Test’ did not evaluate muscular fitness of an individual. Studies were done in the 1980’s, which showed that muscular fitness was a must for the wildland firefighter, but it was found out that many women did not have the level of muscular fitness needed, and Washington had the program put in the back-burner, so to speak, since it could have discriminated against women. Dr. Sharkey, who is a retired professor from the University of Montana Human Performance Laboratory, and other individuals, such as Art Jukkala, who worked within the Missoula Technology and Development Center, were very interested and concerned about the safety and fitness issues of the firefighters. They began to develop some type of fitness test, which addressed the needed of a fair physical test that did not discriminate against anyone. Finally in 1994 agency officials in Washington requested Missoula Technology and Development Center to develop a more efficient test, one that would remain inexpensive to administer.

In 1996, National Wildfire Coordinating Group agreed to replace the step test with the pack test, and gave a one-year lead-time to start the program. Finally in 1998, the Pack Test was pilot-tested. There was resistance from the employee’s union, as to the validity of the data that was used to pick the pack test as the correct physical test to use.

Then on January 11, 1999, an individual was taking the test at Paris, Arkansas, which is a part of the Ozark-St. Francis National Forest, and died while taking the test. On January 16, 1999, the US Forest Service suspended the test for their individuals. Other organizations continued to use the test. The Forest Service expressed concern that the test needed to address additional area of safety for participants. They had hoped to have recommendations on describing how to fully implement the tests sometime in ’99. Now in 2000, there is a major importance on: Pre-participation screening procedures or PAR – Q, Physical conditioning preparedness, and Administration procedures of the pack test.

This year, at least one individual has died taking the test, however, this individual was preforming the "Light" level or "Walking Test", one mile hike in sixteen minutes without a pack. Some agencies still use the "Step Test" as a measure of fittness. But I feel the Work Capacity Test is still one of the fairest tests available. Shy of being hooked to a heart monitor, walking on a treadmill, being in a doctor's office and sitting in a waiting room for a couple of hours, I think I'd rather be outdoors working up a sweat.

Old and Calloused

BC Davis

eric ! just missed ya. let me know when you are in town again.

I agree with the things you said the folks on the ground need from a good dispatcher. From our side there are some things we as dispatchers need from our Initial Attack IC's to better serve you. And a little info for you in the field to know what we deal with. Some if this is for the younger crewperson, but hey, it never hurts to tell the old dogs this either.

I work on a Forest where the ECC is small and still understaffed. We do a lot of Incidents a year for our size. The communications system isn't the best, the district on the North side of the forest can't hear the district on the South. 9 tones we actively use to keep up with everyone. We have 5 radio freq's and 2 intercoms to monitor. The scanner picks up 5 local LE freq's and 4 other fire freq's. And to top it off we have 6 phone lines and NO call takers. And what do you think happens when an incident breaks? BOOYA all hell breaks loose. I'm not complaining mind you, I like working where I do. I also come from twelve years in the field, the last 4 as a captain. I've been in Dispatch for 5 years so I'm no greenhorn, although you folks in the field still amaze me with some of the stuff they come up with.

1. Be patient, at times we need to prioritize the incidents.
2. Keep us updated, the more we know the better we can anticipate your needs, and it will help us prioritize.
3. Try to stay calm we know the excitement levels rise in direct proportion to the flame length.
4. Everyone on Forest can't always hear you, you may be being walked on and we can't hear you. So be patient and don't loose your temper with us.
5. If you need the "air" cleared for emergency traffic, say so and we will do it for you. "CLEAR THE AIR FOR EMERGENCY TRAFFIC".
6. When (no matter how creative we are) we cannot get things to you in a timely matter, don't take it out on us. We are doing the best we can to fill your needs. It or anything like it may not be available.
7. When you call us, let us know what freq and tone you are on. "Dispatch, Captain-32 Command tone 6". Especially if your in an area that you have had to search for a tone to get out on. And give it a second before you start talking.

And I'll take your 4 & 5 for my 8 & 9.
8. Let us know by your actions and words that we really matter.
9. Always try to have a pleasant radio voice. I guarantee that if things have hit the fan in the field we have kicked it into overdrive in dispatch also.

JN

since i really have nothing to do now while i wait for responses from other doctors, let me explain my situation a little more in depth.

to Brett, no i did not leave on my own free will. I have wanted to be a firefighter of any type since i can remember. I definitely did not leave on my own free will, i was informed by M and the Captain that the doctor would not clear my physical because "she was concerned about my health, well-being, and safety" and as a result, i could not continue to work for them........ this is a prime example of how rumors get started. so if you could, when it comes up in conversation or something, let them know that i did not leave on my own free will. and thanks for the number.....was it L? i can't seem to get a hold of him, but i am still trying.

now i know diabetics CAN be problematic, but i have had the diesease for over 15 years and have never been hospitalized or had any major problems with it, i think i know how to control it........but who ever asked me what i thought? actually, who ever listened?

now i have looked into the Americans With Disabilities Act. i did not read it all however. i found a lot of interesting things out but have not had to resort to them yet. i am getting a THIRD opinion about my health from a doctor i have never seen in my life, and obviously has never seen me. it seems that all of the Endocrinoligists in the state are booked easily into the middle of August, which does me absolutely no good. so, as a resort to "help me" get through the situation, the doctor that originally wouldn't clear me is having a friend of hers that is an Endocrinologist look at my medical record and make a decision from there............ i am crossing my fingers. if that goes well, i will have my job back and i will happily accept it. if not, then come the lawyers.

to everyone who thinks i am working for a poor agency with bad management, you are wrong. Yes, i do want to still work for the agency. they are a great group of people with a great and knowledgeable background. It is not the decision of my Superiors' that made me leave, they were as dissappointed as i was. they were just the messenger. My fate is in the pen of the doctor downtown, so i don't hold it against the department. i don't even really hold it against the doctor, i just don't understand the logic in her decision. i told her i took all the precautions to prevent a problem, which i did. it is too bad that you get through all the tests and.......... GASP......... the interviews, then go on to get hired and take a test that they say they will have the results back for before you start training so you can work any problems out. so you start training with a smile, knowing you are going to do something useful and exciting for a change. come to find out, after a week of training and nearly $600 later, that you simply won't be allowed to do it............. i will keep you posted on my situation. and still, i agree with Brett: don't rip on the agency, you don't know them.

thanks and have a safe season!!
NP

Good clarification NP. And thanks for writing in Brett (if that's really your name). You who are with your "agency" know which one it is. The rest of us do not, so no "black eye" has been given. Hopefully this medical situation will work out.

Remember readers, 2500 to 3000+ people per day browse at wlf.com depending on how many fires are burning. Annonymity can help you get the info you need without risking your job. As those who post know, Ab gives initials when people do not provide monikers. Sometimes Ab even makes up initials (or names). You can also choose initials that are not your own if you feel your own initials are too revealing. (And then you can play with your initials as WP often does!) Ab.

The Gila NF, that has the Whitetail Fire, is in southwestern NM, west of I-25 and north of Silver City. If you go to the public Geomac site, you can get maps of all the current large fires, including the Whitetail. Click on the large "Geomac" button and then choose "jump to fire" in the upper right corner. Whitetail is the last one.

Firescribe

I DO judge ANY employer that DISCRIMINATES against anyone based on a DISABILITY.... HARSHLY! It is not only a CRIME it is morally repugnant. If you carefully read our posts Denver Farmboy did not "rip" your local agency...and I only said that I would not choose personally to work for ANY employer that showed such obvious ignorance. If you chose to take it personally that is your problem.

By the way...any diabetic that has been discriminated against by representatives of any governmental unit (read deep pockets) would have law firms that specialize in ADA cases pounding on their door and crawling over each other to get the case if they were to "get the scent". I encourage each of the diabetics that have recently claimed such discrimination on this site to carefully and completely document EVERYTHING right now. Sit down and write out what happened, times, and dates, and have a witness sign and date it. This may come in very handy later... even if you decide not to bring suit.

Fireronin

I have a question. What do you all think of the new *WHITE* vehicles the FS is getting? We got the last green engine on our R5 forest the other day. Is *WHITE* the start of a new era? I'm going to miss the green, but they claim white is supposed to be safer and cheaper. Is that really true?

AL

1. Never question what we tell you is happening out in the field; if we say the situation is bad, it's probably worse than that.
2. When I ask for something that cannot be gotten in a reasonable amount of time, don't just tell me it's not available. Be creative and always look for other options. You may know of a resource that could fulfill my needs even though it's not specifically what I've asked for.
3. Never be closed minded and always be forward thinking. Be one step ahead of us. Try to anticipate our needs (food, water, sleeping bags, etc.) and arrange for those needs to be met before we ask for them.
4. Let us know by your actions and your words that we really matter. When we haven't checked in for several hours, call us up and do a status check. Before you go home for the night, check in one last time to see if there is anything else that we might need. It's nice to know somebody out there cares.
5. Always try to have a pleasant radio voice. When things hit the fan and you're dealing with frustrated often difficult people, try to maintain that calm, soothing voice. It helps calm the rest of us down just hearing it.

- Craig

I have attatched a photo of Neptune Aviations P2V aircraft T-10 in this years paint scheme that I took at the Albuquerque Airtanker Base in May.

Enjoy!
Sincerely,
CH

Thanks CH. Posted it on the AirTanker2 page. Ab.

DM

Thanks DM. Breaking fire photos, I like it. I posted them on Fire5 page. Ab.

Would you please consider the enclosed pictures for inclusion on the Photos - Logos page? It would please me very much to have you post the attached pictures of some insignia from my days as a Forest Service ground pounder. It would also serve to honor the many men I worked with during those days. All are ballcap insignias.
#1 CHILAO HOTSHOTS, 1974? to 1978, R5-Angeles NF; The character in the picture was supposed to be the Superintent Dick O'Connor.
#2 CHILAO HOTSHOTS, 1979 to Present. My buddy Jim Beard designed the new logo of a gorilla with a shovel in one hand and a chainsaw in the other while carrying a hosepack on it's back.
#3 SIERRA HELITACK, 1980?- 1985, R5-Sierra NF. Trimmer Helibase overlooking Pine Flat Reservoir. During the period I was working there we had two helicopters on contract from Roger's Helicopters down in Clovis, CA. One was an Alouette 3, then a souped up Bell 204.

Thank you,
Jim R

Historical ballcap logos... I posted them on the Logo4 page. Ab.

Think about it... just because one has brawn, doesn't mean one has brains, or knows how to use them... also, does the phrase,"It doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as it gets done", mean anything? You career folks with retirement benefits especially need to heed this... if you are subject to it and don't or can't pass this test, you are subject to removal from your career positions, as well as losing your many years of paid retirement that you've worked hard for and are owed. This is happening now. I don't know about other folks, but I have never as a firefighter carried 45lbs, 3 miles in 45 minutes. Yes folks that's right... Get off of the high horse about it... I don't care who you are... No-one carries 45lbs, 360ft. per minute for 45 minutes. Bustin' line, pullin' and flakin' hose? Cold trailin'? Not 360 some feet a minute at a wildfire... c'mon... the Pack Test simulates ACTUAL duties?

Hmmm... Honestly think about it... I have observed people begging to not be stopped, when they should be...because they get only 1 chance for a "seasonal job" to feed, clothe and house their families for 6 months... "what a carrot in front of the mule", especially in rural areas where jobs are not plentiful... This is DEAD wrong, no pun intended with the highest respect to those that have fallen from this. Everyone knows what I'm sayin' here... So... Don't be afraid... stand up for yourselves, if you can't...if you wish, I will. I'm not afraid to. There's a lot more than just 1 or 2 of y'all out there that can relate to what I have said here... and remember... They Said It... whoever they are.

Feel free to write me at atta_gal@yahoo.com.

But the Basin looks bone dry.

BC Davis. Drive down town WID youll see our engines along Winnemucca BLVD. Been waiting for three weeks to take possesion of our shop space, previous owner still moving his crap out. Anyways would love to get the scoop from you.

Later all and have a safe one. Hey Mellie ;)

eric
PW

It was my understanding that you left on your own free will- I could be wrong- that's just what I heard from my crew. I even gave your crew boss M a number to call for an engine crew.

Fireonin and Denver Farmboy- don't be ripping on my local agency when all your read is a two line sentence. Don't make judgements.

Thank You
Brett-

Above all else, please do not get discouraged by this. I too am a diabetic and I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are covered under the American with Disabilities Act. What you do with this information from this point forward is completely up to you. Denver Farmboy had it right though. If you are serious about pursuing this further, please get in touch with your agency's personnel officer and also any local agencies who deal with people with disabilities. The internet is a great starting point for researching what I've told you. The ADA has a great site full of information if you can stand to wade through it all. It can supply you with alot of information to help support your position. One other tidbit of information: the Forest Service does employ diabetics in fire. With a doctor's written note that your condition is manageable and under control, there is no reason for you not to be employed by that agency. If you choose not to fight with your local agency over employment, try the Forest Service. Good luck and keep us all posted on your situation. If there is anything I can do to help you in this battle, please let me know.

- Craig

All of the guidelines are straight forward easy to understand except the fourth one.

Communication is established between the crew working downhill and the crews working toward them from below. When neither crew can adequately observe the fire, comm will be established between the crews, supervising overhead and a lookout posted where the fire can be seen.

Some people interpret this to mean that a crew must be working towards them from below. I know that this is often a great idea, but not a requirement.

One of the items in old FLHB downhill line construction check list is to have the toe of the fire anchored. New check lists don't even have this a requirement.

Does "Downhill/Indirect" mean "downhill and indirect" or "downhill or indirect". What about downhill and direct with ample safety zones, clean black and good lookouts --LCES? Does a crew have to be working up hill? Are these now just guidelines and some old-timers are treating them like a checklist?

R-5 Alienhead

To the Diabetics that were turned down...rejected by "locals". Are you not covered by the "Americans with disabilities Act"? If so you may wish to approach them again (if you really want to work for them) before you approach a lawyer. A private employer would be totally screwed for pulling a stunt like that! Personally I would not want to work for an employer that shows such obvious ignorance of a condition that can be so easily controlled.

Fireonin

While in Massachusetts I read a newspaper article about a new treatment for diabetis (Type I). Great success had been achieved in transplanting Islets of Langerhans cells (cells in the pancreas that produce insulin) to restore insulin production. The people in the trial had been off insulin for up to a year after the transplant with profound success. Aside from pursuing the ff job, please check with your doc to see if this treatment would be available to you.

Tahoe Terri

I work for the FS in your area and I know of some seasonal spots still available on my forest. Engines I think. Let me know if you want more info. Ab can send you my email address.

firepup21

DenverFarmboy

fire clipart

He says, "If someone needs it pass it out...and if anyone got anything I can add....send it in....

Of his collection, I like this one and this one the best. Nice job, Hickman.

Ab.
ps. You all should know that the original Ab did the engine cliparts "by hand" back before technology made creating clipart a simpler process. He used them on some crew t-shirts.

Thanks,
s

I am writing in response to NP who is looking for work because he was denied employment due to diabetes. I just went through the exact same thing! One of my rookies also has diabetes, and it wasn't until AFTER he had got a physical, a week of rookie school, did they have concerns about his condition. He had 3 different doctors saying that doing an ardeous job would actualy benefit him. It wasn't like they didn't know...he'd been doing volunteer work for the same agency that he works for now, for the past 8 months. I don't understand?!?

All I can suggest to you NP, is to go back and see if your AMFO, FMO, or FOS will back you up like our AMFO did for our fire fighter. Ours took total responsibility, and I'm pleased to say that all ended well, finally. Have a safe season!

~*~Great Basin Fire Fighter~*~

I'm pretty sure the film you're talking about is "A Fire Called Jeremiah."

23

I updated Series 462 and 455 on the jobs page. I'll update the jobs page itself and get up the photos and logos that you've sent in as time permits. Ab.

BE SAFE OUT THERE KIDS!

Mom

well worn but not out of picture yet

Could it be Forest Smoke Chasers 1948 that RR gives the contact for below? Ab.

i was just wondering if anyone knew of any BLM or FS jobs that are still available in R4?? i got hired on with a local agency and went through red card training and then they decided to not clear my physical because i was a diabetic. my crew boss told me that the FS and BLM can/do/have hired diabetics to work handline for them. please let me know if anyone knows anything!! thanks.

NP

< < .....snip......{Hot Shots} are the best firefighters very seldom caught by the news video because they're out in the middle of no-where land doing what no others can do. But then of course, the news media is usually busy showing video of the CDF "firefighters" in orange. They're nearer to the media vans access and the orange shows up great on TV, and all of that makes for a "feel good" story.>>

The only reason I can figure out that the media shows relatively more footage of CDF Crews is that many of our fires are in the intense urban-interface area where the news media is more likely to show up. I can't quite see 1fsga's point on this. It's a matter of pride to us CDFers that our jurisdiction takes in both I-zone areas with their complex fire problems (including need for immediate suppression, with limited options for backing off to distant ridges, and urgent structure protection requirements), as well as very remote and wild country. All Type 1 CDF Crews (which is to say, all CDF Crews) are capable of extended assignment in very remote areas with minimal need for re-supply. Might need some drinking water eventually, but we carry enough of everything else for typically a full, working 24 to 36-hour shift. The only reason you don't see us kept out on the line for extended periods is that those (choice) assignments are given to the Shots on USFS fires. It's much easier staying out on the line than hiking out, then hiking back in, driving for miles each way, then dealing with all the Fire Camp B.S. in between.

"1fsga" continues:

< < Wouldn't one like to know what each "firefighter" in orange did to end up in prison. That would take the old shine right off the news media's "feel good" story.>>

I certainly agree that it would be nice if that information was provided. In the vast majority of cases the crimes are far less evil than the naive public would imagine. "There but for fortune........."

Michael - CDF

Just for clarification. I was not picking on CDF with my post about the Martis fire. All of us who are involved in fire seek to understand how a large fire starts. I simply did not understand an online news report and thought at first that either I didn't understand some terms or that reporters were unfairly seeking to place blame. So I searched on for the "official" report. In my estimation CDF has as much integrity as FS as BLM as NPS and I have friends (and colleagues) in fire in all those groups. The blame game helps none of us in fire. Clear evaluation of processes can help us do better next time, however.

Mellie

One of the Disney movies with a fire tower was "Fire On Kelly Mountain". Not sure if this is the one you meant but it is a good training film for some of the humorous sides and does show the commitment. My kids love it by the way.

Batt71

Re the Disney Fire Movie, there's a movie on EBay right now, called "fire on kelly mountain" I'm not sure if that's the one that you are looking for. It's item number #1440506557. or search on Forest Service. The bidding expires on the 26th (today) around 1954 PDT. Hope this helps.

Onelick

forest smoke chasers (1948)

Check with
audience planners , Inc.
5341 Derry Avenue # Q
Agoura hills CA. 91301
(818)865-1233

I have been collecting UFO and anomalies seen by lookouts and professional forestry workers and supervisors. So far 82 sightings are recorded and most ask for, and all get anonymity. The sightings are from all over Pac NW and N. California and all are difficult to find. Forest service agencies, understandably, are not interested in helping at all.

Those sightings from a distance are intellectually interesting to lookouts but those which make close approaches are very frightening. I have sightings scattered through the late 1940s up to the 1990s. About 90 % of active employees do not want their names or lookouts/stations listed. If you know of any sightings, please ask the persons to contact me or just have them write a good narrative description of their sighting with dates, places times, appearance, movements etc.. I have made my reports to some USFS supervisors but they are not interested. .....smile if you wish....but in 1959 my wife was with me during two dramatic sightings....both very near the tower....it wasn't fun.

Thanks,
Dr. Jim Doerter
80 Scenic Drive,
Ashland, Oregon 97520
OregonsOtto@aol.com

I can't find any wildland (forest) fire designs and/or clip art. All of them that I have found are more structure/EMT related. Do your readers have any idea were to find some?

Thanks,
Goldilocks.

PS. I appreciated the responses last month to my request for Dispatcher Training. Now I'd like to know what all the seasoned wildland firedogs appreciate in a good dispatcher. Any takers?

Dana,
Thanks for the well-written comments - you restated and emphasized the point I was really trying to make.

I'd love to meet you guys some day, but only if my hose is as big as yours. And oh, I'm not a he! <chuckle>

Tahoe Terri

Thanks
Steve

well worn but not out of the picture yet

Great! You're reading between the lines. It's great to see people out there are thinking about this. But who will ever know. CDF controls the new media so will that the truth may never be known. Who will investigate CDF? Maybe USFS - No I don't think so. USFS (the best forest fire suppression agency in the work) moved aside and allowed CDF to totally manage the Martis Fire while it burned in 2 different National Forest and mostly outside of the state of California. WOW

From a good source, (radio transmissions) the CDF Captain wanted to go back and check the escaped camp fire Saturday AM and was told "don't worry about it now, check it later in the afternoon". The CDF crew planned on making that check at 1:00 PM on Sunday but the Martis Fire broke out at 12:04. Yes - many questions????? Is it the ole Oakland/Berkeley Hills Fire thing all over again??? Someone forgot the basics of mop-up. We'll never know because no one will ever challenge CDF's final report.

I would like to hear from others that know more than I and possible the firefighters involved - wouldn't that be great.

BIG TIME thanks to the Hot Shot crews on the Martis Fire. These are the best firefighters very seldom caught by the news video because they're out in the middle of no-where land doing what no others can do. But then of course, the news media is usually busy showing video of the CDF "firefighters" in orange. They're nearer to the media vans access and the orange shows up great on TV, and all of that makes for a "feel good" story. Wouldn't one like to know what each "firefighter" in orange did to end up in prison. That would take the old shine right off the news media's "feel good" story.

Just trying to see through the smoke. Thanks for the site.

lfsga

I don't think Tahoe Terri meant to "dis" non-western firefighters or fire managers. I initially took offense at his post too...but upon reflection and re-reading realized that I agree with most of his points. When it is "green and raining" few people anywhere think about fire danger. People in metropolitan areas seldom do either. While no one likes being lumped together in such sweeping statements in general what he said is true. I don't think he meant to "bash" non-western firefighters. He had an especially good point in his statement "the task becomes how to raise the awareness of those managers to the need and requirements for wildland firefighters. Failing that, the question becomes how do you put in place systems that gets folks redcarded in a timely fashion. Banding together to work on such stuff often helps."

Speaking from personal experience I think it is a waste of time trying to "raise the awareness" of fire managers...they are usually only too aware of the problem. If other states are at all like MN in the structure of their fire program, a single person is responsible for getting the red cards issued. Yes, fire managers and firefighters must get the information to this person but this single person is usually "the weakest link"...unless they are being ordered by "higher ups" to delay issuing the cards.

So this leaves "banding together" to get the problem solved. Again, from personal experience THIS WORKS and is simpler than you think. If there is sufficient interest a nationwide alternative red card issuance system can be set up to take this "burden" off the backs of the states which are chronically "tardy" in issuing them. At the very least we can allow those firefighters who are serious about getting experience/opportunities to not be held back by the laziness of a single state employee. If anyone is interested contact me.

Dana Linscott
VC MWFA
linscott@rea-alp.com

This is a CROC! "People think about wilderness or interface relatively infrequently. If they're not from the west, they probably think about wilderness fire even less. For the vast majority of non-western fire managers I bet that getting people qualified to fight western fire is not even on their radar screen, let alone their priority list. You know how it is with priorities. The cues of a drying environment are not present as reminders."

Do you live under a rock? To think that ONLY westerners think or know about wildland fire is an insult to me. I live in Arkansas and you can bet that wildland fire is on my mind. I have many friends from the "East" who are very good firefighters and know that they can and will support the wildland fire community. The Southern area has MORE wildland fires and BURNS more acreage than the so called "Fire Regions" like R-5. I'm not proud of this statistic, but that's the way it is.

The redcard situation is/has been an ongoing problem for years. As I see it, the problem is those responsible for the redcards do not make it a priority and in many cases are just to lazy to get it done in a timely fashion.

It's not only redcards, but helicopter contracts have always been late to the field. I don't know how many times I have had to call Boise, just to get the daily and hourly cost information for a type II helicopter.

Now then it's my turn to bash the west. Just because your fire season starts later in the year does not mean that redcard and contracting issues are not needed by another geographic area. Maybe it's time to turn the power back on and see what's going on outside of your back yard.

Jim

The book that you are looking for is entitled "Hank Winston, Smokechaser", authored by Montgomery M. Atwater and published by Random House (NY) in 1947. On line, I saw that there is a copy available in the library at Bemidji State University. Maybe someone out there can set you up with a copy.

"Kicks"

It cooled off the past couple of days, but the 1 hour fuels are looking mighty thick. I noticed the other day the fuels had cured nicely but suddenly they took on a bleached look as the last of the moisture came out of them. We have had a couple of 400-600 acre fires in the area of the TriCities. We are all crossing our fingers for high RH%.

Zimm

If you go the the following address and look in Wildfire you can obtain information and handouts at no charge. Information comes from the National Fire Administration (your tax money at work). You can also obtain other information on Public Education and Fire Prevention that you might be able to use also.

www.usfa.fema.gov/usfapubs/pubs_main.cfm

Good Luck
Hickman

If you can give me a lead to it I would be most grateful I have tried all the obvious book searchers.

Thanks
Becky

If no one else has any better ideas for you, here's a few suggestions on starting your search. Check out the NIFC website at www.nifc.gov/news/nicc.html 'Prevention and Education' 'protecting your home from wildland fire'. Also under the same sub category there is a link to www.firewise.org. I took a very cursory look at it and it looks ok. Video, slides, etc included but it may be in Powerpoint format, I didn't go that far into the site. The NIFC site has quite a few related links so take some time and look around. Also, I know that there is a lot of information put out by the California Department of Forestry on fire in the urban interface, just go to the wlf.com links page under state and CDF should come up. If you are looking for hardcopy information, try contacting the Deer Lodge National Forest. If you are having a town hall meeting or your department wants some training, I would think they would be happy to assist. If you have no luck with them, the next time you are in Missoula, stop in and see the Missoula smokejumpers. They might kick someone loose to come meet with you, just not in August! Good work! It is very nice to see a rural department expressing interest in educating the residents they are protecting instead of just showing up with equipment after the fire is going. Smart residents and professional rural departments are invaluable when the fire, fuels, winds, and slope all line up!

Old R5'er

The following is a quote from the sfgate article on the Martis Incident: www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/06/22/MN171859.DTL

Investigators with the California Department of Forestry and the U.S. Forestry Department responded to a fire in that area on Saturday and managed to extinguish a 30-by-60 foot blaze.

But another fire exploded east from the same start point on Martis Peak on Sunday, investigators said, pushed east by intense winds and fed by tinder-dry needles, pine cones and scrub brush.

Does anyone know what this means? Are they implying that that a 30x60' fire was put out on Sat. and something didn't get put out and started the fire up again on Sunday? Or does it mean that an unnoticed spot separate from the 30x60' fire flared and spread?

Checking around some more, I found these interesting sites:
Martis Fire at the FS site
Martis Fire at the CDF site

Hmmmmmm... report on the CDF investigation of the cause... Guess they're still trying to figure it out.
Martis News Release - 6/21/01 in PDF, but just takes a moment to load if you have adobe acrobat.

Mellie

I am doing research into wild fire fire safety equipment and have heard of a fire 'tent' which a fire fighter can get into to protect from flash over etc. Any information which you could send me or point me in the direction of would be much appreciated. Thank You,

Mathew Trainor
Swinburne University
Victoria, Australia.

I think I have another explanation besides conspiracy or even holding firefighters at home. I'm from R5 but in Massachusetts for a funeral. The contrast between my home Martis Fire area and here is like night and day. Here, it's green, humid and raining. I don't think fighting wildland fire is really on many people's minds. Indiana in the summer is similar. Here is one giant megalopalis. There are large metro areas in Indiana. Something like 95% of people live in cities. People think about wilderness or interface relatively infrequently. If they're not from the west, they probably think about wilderness fire even less. For the vast majority of non-western fire managers I bet that getting people qualified to fight western fire is not even on their radar screen, let alone their priority list. You know how it is with priotities. The cues of a drying environment are not present as reminders.

So then the task becomes how to raise the awareness of those managers to the need and requirements for wildland firefighters. Failing that, the question becomes how do you put in place systems that gets folks redcarded in a timely fashion. Banding together to work on such stuff often helps. But maybe some of ya'll will just have to move west...

Tahoe Terri

Thank you.
John Troglia,
99 Rocksprings Rd., Butte, Mt 59701

Please understand that I realize there are a few type 2 crews that could out perform most Hotshot crews, and yes you can find a few type 1 crews that should have their status revoked, and yes most always due to leadership. I am not an angry person.

You need to understand that I came from a crew that was in tip top shape, everyone except for the supe could perform the 1 1/2 mile run under 9 minutes. We could hike like billygoats and we could work with the best of the best no matter who it was. Everyone memorized the 10 and 18 along with the original FIRE ORDERS. We knew when to work and when to play. We were also trained to be sensitive to everyones feelings ( = .... We knew when to speak and when to shut up.

As for the professional statement I made, I'm sorry. I know that the majority of volunteers in this country are very professional and highly trained, and have probably saved more lives and protected more property than career firemen. On the other hand most paid, municipal, career firemen have a union to hide behind or I mean to protect them. Especially when it comes to physical fitness. Wildland firefighters do not... Anyways don't get your panties in a wad. I still love ya. I think you should pick a crew any type 1 crew and volunteer for 180 days and then tell me if you should be compensated. When upon your return to PA, you find that you no longer are employed by the company you previously left for your 180 days of volunteering, and you find that you have divorce papers on the table waiting to be signed, and your dog bites you because he can't even remember you, don't be surprised.

I think volunteering is needed and is definitley appreciated and thats just what the men and women of the USFS, BLM, FWS, NPS, AFS just to name a few are doing each and every year they return for temporary or seasonal employment when you consider the meager wages they do earn for the job and professionalism they deliver. I surely hope that no one does it for the money, I think we love it and it shows.

Hey Mike

I say "WHITES SMOKEJUMPERS" OR "NICKS HOTSHOTS" and for socks try "THORLOS" the mountain climbers are what I wear. They are thick, tall, and have padding in all the right places, and you only need one pair on at a time, this is my favorite reason. the socks are a little expensive about $15 a pair. As for the white bites, if you are in steep country all the time you will develop a calouse on the top of your foot over time, just take care of the blister and let it calouse up. After the calouse you will usually not have a problem except for hot spots once in a while. Your feet are definitely worth the money, a small price to pay for a little comfort.

Ohhh group hug
Jeff

PLEASE FOLKS STAY SAFE.

.F.L. TENDER 2

Conspiracy? Probably not if this is the first year that your red cards have been "late". In MN we did not suspect "foul play" until the third consecutive season (Minnesotans are way too trusting). While it is possible that Indiana is withholding your red cards intentionally to keep you available for local fires it is more likely simply laziness on the part of the folks who are charged with getting them issued. Since red cards "expire" on Jan. 1st it would seem that they should be issued soon after but you know how things get put off until the last minute. Of course it is of no benefit to Indiana to issue you guys red cards if they are not required for in state fires, as is the situation in MN and there is a slight benefit to not issuing them until after your fire season is completely done since it prevents you from leaving Indiana to join in the national wildfire response. Hmmm. How long has this been happening in Indiana?

We have learned that there are alternatives to depending on our state to provide red cards in a timely manner. While they are completely legitimate, we are somewhat concerned that if our top state fire officials learned of exactly how we are doing it they might attempt to close that door for us. As it is having this alternative tends to keep them slightly more honest when it comes to getting the red cards issued in a timely manner. If you have folks in Indiana that are serious about wildfire fighting and would like an alternative to waiting until your state gets around to issuing their red cards, have them contact me. Of course it is too late this year... but it is good insurance to have your own non state issued red card sitting in your pocket and the cost is minimal ( less than $20). Since I have not heard otherwise, I assume that Indiana is in the same league as MN or PA when it comes to firefighter "neglect" but of course there are few Midwestern states that really encourage their firefighters to "get a taste of the west" (or south). How are you gonna keep them down on the farm once they have seen Truckee?

Dana Linscott
VC MWFA
linscott@rea-alp.com

For some links and interesting browsing showing maps/photos of wilderness areas around Truckee CA, go here:
www.r5.fs.fed.us/ltbmu
Spectacular area. Ab.

In addition to the entire publication, there is a separate section with fully down-loadable photos and charts/graphs that you can use to develop your own training package.

To request FREE copies of the CD-Rom, contact eranf@fs.fed.us and request the MTDC Wildland Fire Safety Collection (0151-2811-MTDC). Be sure to include a snail-mail address in your request.

Dick Mangan

Ab.

Glad everything at the site is back to normal!
I am just a city citizen who reads this site regularly (lurks, I believe you call it). The time has come for me to say what's been on my mind. I have camped and hiked in numerous National Parks and Federal and State forests. These places are where I can shake the cement off my shoes and soak in the splendor and majesty of the forests and mountains. And enjoy the peace and quiet. So when I read/hear about wild land fires, I am grateful for all you men and women who fight fire. You do this for me and other "just plain folk" you mostly don't know and almost never hear from. That you "like" doing this job makes you special in my mind. Fire scares the crap outta me. :-)

No matter in what capacity you participate in beating back fire, you play an important part in keeping America green for the rest of us.

Thank you for all that you do. I wish you all a safe fire season.

JJ

Thanks JJ and posters, you've made this Ab's day. Phew, now maybe we'll get back to our "normal" ab-normality? Ab.

Is there some kind of midwestern conspiracy to hold us all up??
Dusty

Sonoma, Lake, and Napa counties have been pretty busy the last few days. It may or may not slow down this weekend, they are cramming 100,000 people into Sears Point Raceway for a NASCAR event. You those of you who don't know it's mostly grassy rolling hills with poor access. I think I will see it on TV. or catch the papers.

Heard they down sized the acreage on the Truckee fire, apparently they down sized it after a good aerial inferred survey.

My two cents about whiners, the folks that whine the most are usually the ones that get left behind, or are watching all the others guy have fires and are active while they train and clean the bathroom and put on the fire prevention talks and shows, ( been there and whined about it, from first hand experience, pretty much a station staffer during 1987 firestorm. Boy I saw some awesome fires { ON TV.} while covering stations and doing all the other stuff we have to do. I believe it was a merlot 1987 vintage whine, for some it was great. Well at least I did get a Firestorm '87 pin!)

All for now,
L.A.V.E.

"THY SHALL NOT TAKE THY SELF SO SERIOUSLY."

How many people can I offend with this one?
Hear what happened when the crew sup took Viagra?
Nothing, he just got taller.

Wildfire dispatch Person

just a thought, love the web page brings back alot of great memories
rec

Ummmm.... Until our server and our e-mail choked, this was the place where people left notes for firefighters... Hopefully people will continue to do that. We've gotten quite a few friends back in touch with each other over the years. With our new ISP, we have additional capabilities including SEARCH. Soon you'll be able to search the wlf.com archives on a topic, location name, given name, or moniker. Stay tuned.
Ab.

But seriously now...
You can make your own rehab fan with your vent fan and a piece of soaker hose wire tied to the outside of the fan guard. hook it up to a suitable H2O supply, (hydrant,engine,garden hose, Etc) The water drip's out of the hose and is beat to a fine mist by the fan. I guess you could also use a misting system that is available at most home & garden outlets...

Norcaldan

Everything in Southern Idaho is HOT and dry, just small fires so far. The weather will change this weekend with a cold front and lots of wind. I can hardly wait.

Again welcome back,
Bish

Abercrombie.

Abercrombie.

PS. Ab updated the 462 and 455 Series and cleaned up the jobs page yesterday. Feel free to send in any new jobs posts, but send them to the abercrombie@wlf addy, please.

www.interstateproducts.com/cooldraft.htm.

They cost about $600.00 - does anybody know if they work?

Capt. Jim G.
Levitown NY

Abercrombie.

You can also find a Perimeter Map of the fire. Once there, if you click on the small map you will get an enlarged map that takes about 30-40 seconds to load. Details within the burn area are covered in pink, so the map is not the most informative unless you know the area or have another map to compare it to.

The Sacramento Bee has one of the most informative online stories of the fire (June 19).

Martis update: www.sfgate.com

Firescribe

Firefighter Son of state Oregon Rep. Gary Chandler dies at wildfire scene. www.kgw.com/kgwnews/oregonwash_story.html?StoryID=21670

Hickman

One Who Knows

Ab, I found one online story on SF Gate, but I've been having trouble getting the wildlandfire site to come up and there would probably will be more that show up on the WLF News page. Thanks for that resource. Between the news and the sit report I check in here often. (Also, I hope all is OK with the site.)

Please be careful, people.
NorCal Tom

I'm sure glad you're back up and running. I don't know what I'd do if this site disappeared completely. Thanks, Mellie, for letting me know what was up.

AL

Yeah, thanks very much Mellie for answering the pile of e-mail questions I shot off to you before the old Ab account became nonfunctional. I just couldn't handle the volume of them while on the road. And thanks, posters, for your concern. Ab.

Thanks,
Abercrombie.

Midewin is seeking experienced and qualified personnel for the Crew Supt., assistant supt., 2 foremen, 3 squad bosses (permanent appointments) and 13 seasonal firefighters. The seasonals will probably be at the GS-3/4 level, the foremen to Supt ranging GS-5 to GS-9. The Forest Service will probably be looking at a variety of folks ranging from those with appointments already to new hires.

I would suggest interested people still on the ASAP list (and not yet hired) should modify their application to show Midewin Tallgrass Prairie as one of their 9 locations of choice.

Current regular FS employees looking for the opportunity to relocate and be part of a brand new crew should contact the Midewin directly.

Old Fire Guy

For information how to modify the location on your application or for information on how to apply for a FS job, check the FAQ about FS Hiring and the Jobs page. Ab.

I think whining is like pornography...I am not sure I can define it...but I know it when I hear it. For those that get decent pay or like fighting fire just for the thrill, I am sure that " we want to be paid fairly" must sound kinda whiny. And I suppose that for those just off of spike camp (and freezing their ass off at night while eating MREs and digging line till they pass out) hearing fresh troops bitch about the low quality of hot meals and how the hot water ran short in the showers probably sounds intolerably whiny. Hardships do exist in our profession that we must endure in order to accomplish our mission simply because nothing can be done to change them. Hardships also needlessly exist in our profession only because of poor planning, sloppy management, lazy individuals, etc. that need to be "whined" about good and loud.

Complaining about something you are not willing to do anything about yourself...that's whining, as is complaining about something that no one can ever change. My personal rule is that unless I can think of a solution and am willing to help implement it I keep my mouth shut. However, I don't think this gives me the right to hold others to this standard even though it think it is a good one. Throughout our history there have been "crews" composed of whiners that did nothing BUT whine and "crews" that did something about their concerns. The first group have been consigned to the scrap heap of historical ignominy, the second we revere (no pun intended) as national heroes. "No taxation without representation" was a "whine" (as perceived by King George) that is responsible for our way of life.

And yes I know that some of this is "good natured" humor...borne of the shared hardships and healthy competition that are unavoidable components of wild fire fighting. Some is healthy...but you have to be careful not to cross the line beyond mutual respect and when you are laughing at others and they are not laughing along that line has been crossed. When the fire is out who can claim to be most responsible for the victory? Type I,Type II, engine crews, bus drivers, camp cooks, pilots, medics, bookkeepers, dozer operators, overhead, and even helitack all share the glory along with every other person that worked on that fire...and deservedly so. Humors' good...respect is better...we need both.

But I must draw the line at joking about helitak crews eating too much lobster and getting tummy aches! We've had casualties cause of this...and believe you me they don't teach you to "watch out" for that particular danger in helischool nor have I ever once seen a safecom about it! And I don't know how many perfectly good catered lunches were ruined when I was on helitack simply because the USFS was unwilling to pay for a decent vintage to go with the smoked salmon and caviar. Domestic chardonney in plastic cups indeed!

Humor aside...
ALL FIREFIGHTERS deserve to be paid fairly for their service.
They deserve a tolerably dangerous working environment (it will never be "safe").
They all deserve safe drinking water and nutritious food.
They all deserve enough rest to allow them to combat fatigue and be alert.
They deserve prompt medical attention when needed.
They deserve adequate training and oversight to allow them to know what they are doing on the fireline.
And they deserve the respect of their peers and superiors for sticking with a dirty and dangerous job that precious few in today's modern society are willing to even consider trying.

These are minimums that I think we each fully deserve old hands and newbys alike. Cold soda, cots, and warm showers I always considered welcome extras.

I agree with some posts that incessant whining can quickly bring down a crews morale. But so can a "boss" who's answer to everything is "quitcherbitchen". I always tried to prepare my crews for the trials that they might face before they were "committed" and considered that part of my responsibility. If a member of my group...or a neighboring crew was uncomfortable and I could do something about it I felt it was my duty to do so. I have seen newbys ridiculed for whining about the sometimes harsh living conditions and grueling work by "leaders" that had failed to properly prepare them for their mission. That's not good leadership. Telling a newby who "whines" "my feet hurt" while he breaks in his first new boots to "quit whining" doesn't do anyone on the crew a service. Saying "let's look at your feet" and "heres how I break in boots" does.

Listen carefully to other firefighters concerns. Be compassionate. Don't automatically write it off to whining. Treat them like you would your own brother or sister. After all....that is what they are. Firefighting IS a very MACHO thing. Let's not get carried away though. None of us could do it alone. It takes a team effort...and that is what I think makes it so COOL. We are able to accomplish what we do because we work together...period. If a fellow firefighter is in a pinch we don't hesitate to lend a hand. We each depend on each other for our safe return home and if needed risk our lives (often without a second thought) to protect another firefighter from harm. That is WAY COOL!

When I am too old to fight fire...and I can see that day on the horizon...the things I will still cherish the most from my years of smoke eatin are the other firefighters I met and worked alongside and the fact that it felt like more than just a team or group. More than just esprit de corps or camaraderie or tradition. We care about each other like family. It feels rare and special. And it IS!!!
"Nuff" said.

Fireronin

-- http://www.arizonarepublic.com/arizona/articles/0617fire17.html

Kelly

The Abs here at theysaid wish that all the Dads out there have a wonderful Father's Day. We appreciate what you do for your families and for your country.

peter pan ( if thats your real name !!! ), you nailed it on the head !!!! truer words have never been spoken. one of these days we all in the wildfire world will understand that we are here for the same thing, to fight wildfire !!!! its not real complicated is it? i still say its management that is the real problem. doesnt matter if its fed, state or other. i have been crapped on by the best! i have been told i am too old for a job, i have been told that i dont have the experience, i dont care. i will keep plugging away til i get what i think i should.

as far as the damn type crew 1 and 2 crews, i think its a blast ! can we co-exist? of course we can. the breaking chops of one to another is all in good fun as far as i am concerned. we are in a nasty buisness. ya got to have a sence of humor to go day after day in the smoke, heat and lousy food that we all endure.

as far as the rotorheads, well that speaks for itself. i took the helitack course. i didnt get fed too well. i ended up buying alot of the drinks ( they owe me !! ) but i learned that their job isnt that easy. to stand under a damn object hovering 6 ft over your head is just plain nuts. but its their job and so be it.

the real nasty job has to be the folks who work in the medical tent. i would rather do mop-up for 3 weeks straight the listen to someone whine about their feet !!!!! now thats nasty !!!!! working on ones feet ! dont get me wrong, they are the best, but how can they go home and say " boy we kicked that fires ass today !! " . they are the ones we really need to thank for sure !!!!

well its been a while since i rambled on here so i better go. be safe out there. the time bomb is ticking. we have been on a few small fires. i think its teasing us ! the crap will hit the fan soon !! good luck and hope to see some of you this summer in northern nevada !!!

BC Davis

Can you put these pics next to heliheaven, same place, same trailer, was there 1999 and 2000. They are pictures of when it was known as Lake City air tanker base (FL).

The air tanker base was put in the lowest part of the airport and when there was a heavy downpour, all the water from the tarmac drained there. The next year the tanker base was relocated to a higher spot and the helibase was moved to where it flooded.

The air tanker base manager got a big grin when I mentioned the flood from last year and putting the helibase there. I found a whole lot of humor in it also and could not resist sharing this when Jim called it heaven. Didge ya'all happens to get yo feet wet Jim?

COMT

I put them on heli4. Ab.

We all make choices!

Firepup21

D'Amico at NPS replied as follows: "The report dated Feb 26 is the report that was released this past week. Although the report was completed on 2/26, it went through internal review and was not released until June 12."

That should be the final word on that. Maybe there is some additional internal memo, but like BLM Bob, I haven't been able to find it on the web. Thanks Kelly and everyone else for getting clarification on this. When I have time, I'll put a link to this report that can be accessed through either the wlf Site Map (that has lots of good reports on it) or the Archives Page (the Documents Worth Reading portion, which is due for an update soon...)

While you're cruising the wlf.com website, check out the additions to the wallpaper collection and the photo change on the main page. Thanks photo contributors. You make the photo collection the great resource it is for the fire community and the public. There have been some nice additions lately and lots of people wanting to use photos for training, as well as for their wallpaper and school projects.

Ab.

Q. Where can a state employee with 20 years of fire experience go to challenge or change the maximum entry age limit for primary fire? The situation is this, a couple of forests are looking hard at my experience and like what they see, but can't figure out how to employ me. I don't give a rip about retirement benefits, I just want to continue fighting fire. Hopefully the next 20 years with the feds. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Warden

As for the in-yer-face competition...it is a good motivator and every crew should be proud of the accomplishments and reputation and aaas long as expressed in positive way I say go for it! We are all working towards the same goal.. getting the fire out with no injuries. I saw some very memorable "competition" on the Hunter liggett fire in 1991 (if memory serves me right).. crews did an excellent task and the overhead team was probably amazed at how the competition led to the fires containment... crews got to assignments in record time, cut some strong line that held and had a great time in camp ribbing each other about line produced . This went on between the type 1 and type 2 crews as well as with in the types.. all went well.

Congrats on this site ("they Said")

sign me as well worn but not ut of the picture yet.

Welcome well worn and thanks for the congrats. Ab.

Okay, about type one versus two, and whiners and snivelers, etcetera. I was on green and red engines and on class I and II hand crews in three regions. I was on fires alongside helitack people and smokejumpers, volunteers, urban fire crews, convicts, I saw 'em all. At the end of it what comes back to me is something I heard on my first- ever fire. I was a GS-2 district smoke chaser in R-6, all young and starry eyed about heroes from the sky. A wise smokejumper, leaning on his shovel, spit and said, "it's all the same when you get on the ground, buddy..."

I guess maybe I finally learned the truth of that, what that meant. I think of crew comparisons much differently now than I did then. I'll illustrate part of it this way: imagine there is a good seasoned hotshot crew whose leader takes an FMO job on another forest. A new super comes in and his aggressively immature leadership style initiates massive turnover. Now you have a hotshot crew that, when the next season rolls around, is packed with people with little experience, and/or who don't know each other, and the leadership is in turmoil. Imagine the hotshot crew arrives at a fire along with a class II crew whose leadership really has it together, who have been together in a good program for a while, and on the Class II crew there are some experienced hands, and the crew has good morale. Theoretically, which should be entrusted to fire that tricky west flank--the hotshot crew, or the Class II crew? Is there a right answer to that question?

The point is, whatever is true about a hotshot crew is also true about any other crew. Inside a crew the quality of human experience is going to be a reflection of leadership and that is going to reflect again in crew retention and in the ability of the crew to undertake assignments. Just so I remember to say it: I've seen a few CDF con crews that were every bit the equal of a typical Forest Service hotshot crew, in terms of the quality of their work, no doubt. And I was damned glad to see them show up.

I don't much care for comparisons but I've heard a lot. When I worked for CDF they sneered about the Forest Service. When I worked for The Forest Service they reviled CDF. Every other agency looked down on BLM. Crews from the same agency dumped on each other. Crew members put down people on their own crews. In this subculture of wildland fire a lot of feeling is driven by secret fears of failure: somebody has to be a loser and it ain't gonna be me. So you help find somebody else to pin it on. The game has been played forever. I've played it. its a tradition, but its a stupid, hurtful tradition. What crew is better? We might as well be asking who was better: El Cariso at one fire with twelve dead or Prineville at another fire with nine dead. Everybody who has done this work has felt the whole world and all the questions in it narrow down to the next intake of painful, choking, vomit breath; narrowed to just one more lurch up a slippery fifty percent talus slope; narrowed to just one more back-bent rubber-armed grub of that pulaski. Everybody who has ever done this work knows what it feels like when your face is covered with snot, you're blind in hot smoke, stumbling in the stobs, runnin for your life. Everybody knows that voice in your head that says at some point, you're too weak, you're not going to make it, you can't do this anymore, and instead you keep going long, long, after any sane, reasonable, citizen would have quit and gone home. Everybody who has done this work can recall those moments when there is nothing now but the world of fire and there are no more questions about what time it is, what kind of meat was that, are we on overtime yet, aren't we great, shouldn't I be a squad boss, and doesn't that other crew suck. Money, jobs, status, none of it means anything anymore. All that is left is your breath, and the faith, and the will, and the heart, and the love that it takes to put everything you are on a fire line.

Take it from an old guy. The shared experiences are the ones that are important. The ones that divide us are the delusions. And saying such and such crew or agency sucks only reflects the historic powerlessness and widespread Lack of solidarity among federal and state wildland firefighters. If you don't like being at the mercy of random social policy experimentation consider that the first steps to gaining the keys to political influence and national recognition come from respecting the unique collective worthiness of all your brothers and sisters in fire. Be nice to each other 'cause theres something in it for everybody.

(but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a sniveling rotorhead).
--Peter Pan

It's a pix of a OAS-contract SEAT making a drop at a recent fire dept training in South Dakota. That hydraulic gate makes all the difference in the world in delivering an effective pattern with a smaller plane.

Jim "Hurricane"

I put it on the AirTanker2 page. Ab.

Photo posted on Heli4. Ab.

TC

Very nice flamage and a double column. Photo posted on Fire5. (Sometimes I feel like a 4th grader with my baseball trading cards.) Ab.

Really enjoy your site.
JB

Welcome JB. Nice photos of ping pong balls being dropped from a helo and I presume a Rx burn incorporating ping pong balls. Please send in some more info on the photo locations and situations. What's the scoop on the helo and the cabin? I see it's on the Cherokee NF, that must be TN? We don't have so many photos from R8 and these are nice ones. I put them up on the Heli3 and Heli4 Pages. Ab.

I am going to try to get some pictures that were taken on Saturday the 2 of June, the day it started...

Dennis R5

That would be nice. Is that photo taken from Big Flat? I put it on the Fire5 Page. Ab.

www.arizonarepublic.com/arizona/articles/0614AZ--ArizonaFires-ON.html

You might want to read p. 45 of that document I referenced, which only becamse available on 6/14. It's the "conclusions" page and the final paragraph says; "While the Board did find errors in judgement, it also finds that the planning and implementation actions of the principals were not arbitrary, capricious, or unreasonable in light of the information they had prior to the burn annd were in compliance with (blah, blah, blah)."

But you may be talking about the NPS memo "Response to Cerro Grande Board of Inquiry Report." I've got a faxed copy and you've summarized it pretty well. I tried looking around for a web copy, but no luck so far.

I hear many interesting rumors about the report and the response.

And just to keep the joke thig going:
Q. How does a smokejumper change a light bulb?
A. They just grab ahold it and the entre world revolves around them.

BLM Bob

Well it finally happened. Engineer Emmett promoted to Captain in CDF. This all came about rather quickly, we are loosing folks to retirement faster than engineers can become available to promote. 200 of us got on the captains list and to date I think 160 or so have exchanged yellow hats for red ones. By the way, this list has been out for about 2 weeks!!

Wish me luck, it looks like I picked a good year to promote, I think fire season will be a good one this year!!
Stay safe out there!!
Captain Emmett

Congrats Emmett. I hope you, too, have a good safe season. Ab.

Abit of clarification. White boots are not made by Drews or Nicks. Drew's sells Whites. Nicks are another brand of boot manufacturer. White Boot Inc. is located in Spokane. 1-800-541-3786. Can be reached by e-mail at whites@whiteboots.net. Have owned three pair of custom builts since 1973. Will probably cost you around $300 or better if you have them custom fit rather than off the shelf. Drew's can fit you at their store or you can get instructions from Whites themselves.

If you have a normal foot you may find them off the shelf at Drew's or anyone else that might carry them. Make sure you wear the same type socks you will wear with the boots in everyday use. Also, make sure they fit snug enough to be somewhat uncomfortable. THEY WILL STRETCH! If you have a high arch and narrow lower leg like I do, they are worth the extra cost for the custom fit. If you are going to fight wildland fires, do not scimp on your boots. There is a big difference in the long run between a low end boot ($100-150) and a high end boot ($250-300+) When your living is made on your feet such as wildland fire fighting, you will be glad you spent the extra dollars. Have never regretted one dime spent on good boots.

Break them in by filling them with water and letting them set overnight. Wear them the next day till they dry out and they will form to your foot. "White Bite" can come even after broken in. Especially if you only wear one pair of socks. Best to wear cotton socks with thick wool socks over them.

Once you buy a good pair of boots, take care of your investment. Follow the manufacturers recommendation for care and upkeep. When I was a smokejumper, many of us would thoroughly clean and oil them between fires. If you do not take care of them, heat from mopup and dirt will ruin them in no time at all. My first pair of boots were a $100 pair of Westco's back in 1970 (Alot of money back then). Did not oil them and they lasted less than a year. First pair of Whites cost $175 for customs.

Enough of this. Everyone has an opinion on how to take care of their boots. This is my opinions from 30 years of pursuing 'The Passion".

Firehorse

Thanks for the link but I already saw that one. There have been a few. I'm talking about a new report from a different board. It just came out about 3 days ago. The new one exonerates all park service personel. Blamed it all on incorrect indices that day. But it's nobody's fault.

I cant seem to find the new one. It dosen't even say what agency it was from. (Wasn't nps or gsa this time)

On another subject, All this griping about helitack is really getting me down. Helitack isn't the cakewalk people think. Why I remember one time, I ate so much lobster for lunch that I got a tummy ache and had to lay down for a while. Or sometimes when you drink an ice cold soda too fast, you get a head ache. Or your motel dosen't even have cable. It can be hell out there.

-Lucky-

I think the biggest whiners and complainers are those that write into this site. They complain about entry age into a primary fire position, mandatory retirement age, inefficient hiring systems, taking the pack test, how bad Type 2 crews are, how elitist Type 1 crews are, they whine about this crew being better than that crew, and a plethora of other things.

Whining and complaining does nothing to change the system or make things better. I suggest all you whiners and complainers get involved at every level of your organization and come up with real solutions.

Ms. Firedog, If you are managing a helicopter that is being called a "limited" helicopter it should be staffed appropriately and you should not be doing overhead recons and crew shuttles. That is one of the limitations that the Region, Area, or State has accepted when they decide to call it a "limited use helicopter".

Non Whiner

Tongue firmly in cheek, Original Ab replies that he wasn't aware the majority of the posters on "They Said It" were helitack members.

Kidding, just kidding! Stop being so serious for a moment and enjoy the highly spirited, in-yer-face competitive attitude. Next best thing to being on a fire I've observed, is firefighters laughing at each other and themselves. Most of us know how illogical our lives and careers are.

You are CORRECT! Heliwhiners win hands down. I tell people that the noise the hear each morning coming from the helibase is not the ships warming up, but the Helitac crew calling for more: ice-lunches-water-soda-shade....... Did you get to Big Bar two years ago when the helibase was above the Ranger Station, next to the house with a pool? (that they had an open invitation to use) From the main camp it looked like the base was on a bare knob, but once up at the site it was bordered by large oaks and pine, the crew was staked out in the shade, the ships grounded by the inversion and all the while they were on the clock for at least 12 hours a day. If they could have figured out how to have their meals hot canned, I think they still would be there!

No fires in the wet NW yet, I am getting calls for some resources but it is damn hard to shake many people loose, I just tell them that "sucks to be you, the request was for Hawaii." You need to make your plans for the R-6 dispatchers work shop now, it is going to be held in Seaside OR in late March.

WP

Proud Volunteer in PA

And wouldn't you know it, but I'm sitting here typing this and not on the fire (grumble grumble). Just spent the spring on a fire crew in northern Minnesota and loved it - my first, and hopefully not last - wildland fire job. When I got back I called the local USFS to ask if they kept lists of casuals so I could get on some federal fires this summer, and was told they did not. Is this true? Did the casual firefighter program get scrapped, or just locally, or what?

I've been able to think of little else since getting back except getting back out on more fires - did that happen to any of you when you were rookies? :)

Got some great photos from Minnesota, and some (at a distance) of the Leroux fire in Arizona including slurry bomber drops. Will have them up on the web as soon as they are scanned. We also went across the Canadian border once and worked with the Manitoba Forestry - have some photos of them too.

Hmm, how should I sign this?
"Bum Pup" if it's not already in use.

has anyone with the fs heard about a contractor in reg 6 filing contract complaints cuz his company wasn't awarded a crew contract for a forest he has never held a contract with? the fs at leastdoes one thing right with their contracts, cost isn't the defining item. if they think that if they pay alittle more to their exisitng contractor because he provides a level of service that they know the other contractor out there can provide, shouldn't that company be paid better? not according to the whiner in oregon. he provides a service that is ok at best and feels he should have the contract. I feel that it's like buying a car, why settle for a hyundai when you can afford a mercades!!

koz

p.s. does anyone ever have anything good to say about or-cal?

To County Rover, You're a bit off on your description of White's boots. White's is the *original* boot company that made the design that Drew's and Nick's imitated: www.whitesboots.com The first, the best - accept no substitute ;^)

To all: Q. What's the difference between the helicopter and the helitack crew?
A. At the end of the day, the helicopter stops whining.

Ex-rotorhead BLM Bob

Here's a link to the most recent report (6-12-01) on last years Los alamos fire: Cerro Grande fire. I had no luck finding a copy of the report itself. Perhaps it's not yet on the net.

Being an old rotor head myself, I'll have to agree that they do win the whinning prize. Which reminds me of a couple of old jokes.

What do you call 10 smokejumpers in a cellar?
A whine cellar.

What does a hotshot do when there's a grease fire in the kitchen?
Backfires the living room.

-Lucky-

Whatever you do don't buy Danners. I used to get them in the early 70's when they specialized in work boots. As soon as they went to making hiking boots the workboots became junk. Stick with the Redwings for now. Whites can be bought at several companies but alot of Northwest folks go through Drew's out of Klamath Falls. They are online at drewsboots.com. They have alot of variety and cater to firefighters. some of the brands they carry are Whites, Nicks, Westco (my personal favorite), and their own models which are very reasonably priced. Good luck!!

firenwater

Whites are a style of boots made by two companies, Drew's and Nick's. They are for the most part, custom made to your foot. I bought mine from Drew's, I think they are in Oregon, and they are a pleasure to do business with. There are many different styles and options to choose from. Check out there web site and look under firefighting boots; they make every other type of boot imaginable. There are about 7 or 8 to choose from. I've heard they are a pain to break in (commonly referred to as "White bite"), but I had no problem with mine. Like I mention before, they will cost ya a couple hundred or more and there might be a backorder because of the time of year it is. But check 'em out there worth it. www.drew'sboots.com

County Rover

Here's where I can use some help. I've been involved in the evaluation of location, and game plan for implementation, and I'm hanging in there on my own trying to help in the recruitment. So......give me some ideas or names of folks that could be persuaded to take on this type of challenge. Again, we want this crew up and running this summer, and spending the bulk of their time on going fires.

Not much to ask.
Old Fire Guy

Thanks for the advice, and also Jim "Hurricane", thanks for the words of wisdom. I did check the Redwing Loggers, and I can get a pair of them, but what are these "Whites" you speak of? Also, at Scheel's, they said a pair of Danners w/o insulation would be their best idea. I'm still searching around and could use those numbers if you could give them. Thanks alot again.

Mike

I agree that Helitack is right up there with Hot Shots and DISPATCHERS, but anyone who whines about supporting the folks in the field or on the line needs a good ass whipping. How Big a Boy are Ya!

Jim

Jim, if you're thinkin' of takin' on THE ORIGINAL, I wouldn't. Ya won't win! Ab.

This is the "old" Ab responding personally, I just had to answer with my opinion. There isn't any doubt in my mind, it's a slam-dunk! It isn't hotshot crews, nor engine folk, they only whine when they ain't a go'in. The number one, highest maintenance resource I've ever had the pleasure to meet and work closely with is HELITACK!

They whine when they aren't dispatched, they whine when they are dispatched, then get cancelled. They call from their comfy easy chairs at the fire helibase and whine about not getting enough hours, they whine about getting too many hours. They whine about rotating and trasporting pilots, crewmembers, mechanics, or fuel tender personnel. They whine about not flying, they whine about flying too much, the pilots being overworked, the pilots being overworked They whine about their cases of sodas in the cooler not having enough ice, they whine if they have to walk too far to the porta-potty, they whine if the porta-potty is too close. They whine if they don't get to stay in motels, they whine if they have to drive too far to a motel. There's more whining if there aren't enough sack lunches to high-grade or if their shade on the helitender fades by the afternoon. There really ain't no end to it.

Haw haw haw! As you can tell from my early pics and comments on the site, I loved being in helitack, but I was always a little embarrassed of all the whining.

Old Ab.

Hey Ab, did you want me to post this or was I just supposed to forward it? Ab. (but not the original, obviously!)

-- www.azcentral.com/slideshow

Here's another, Judd Slivka and Tim Koors reports:

-- www.azcentral.com/news

Firescribe

Agular is or was working for Eagle Pass Reforestation out of Medford, Or. He drives a school bus the rest of the year. All of this controversey over crew types and ability leads me to say that a crew is only as good as the crew boss. I was mad the last time I wrote this site about Nevada. The services just have to quit making incompetent people because of personel