"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
AUGUST 2001

DATE	SUBJECT (Newest Archive: Jul-01) Return to Archives Page
08/31	Ab and All, Now there's a fire near Hyampom CA, a smaller historical mining and logging town WSW of Weaverville -about 30 mi as the crow flies, further by road. Has maybe 1000-1500 people and there's a 300+ acre raging fire on the north side of town. Conditions are similar to those at Weaverville and over much of NorCal. Remember Folks, the Big Bar and the Kirk both started in late August and burned until Nov. The season's not over until it's over. Be Safe, All, NorCal Tom
08/31	Dear SoCal Capt: I’m going to try to avoid another CDF versus Forest Service shouting match here by pointing out a problem that I think requires the attention of both our organizations. I have just completed a twenty-day tour of various fires here in California. I was struck by the number of local government folks filling command roles on both the Forest Service and CDFfires. While many of these folks appeared to be dedicated to the job, an overwhelming majority did not have a clue about nuts and bolts wildland fire fighting. I saw forest agency engines sidelined while local government type 2 engines pulled assignments on uncontained fire lines. I saw Branch Directors from mainly volunteer fire departments try to direct forest agency personnel in handline location and firing operations. I do not think one of the individuals I encountered understood the versatility of a Forest Service or CDF engine strike team (i.e. firing or handline construction). Resource misuse was rampant and the potential for an accident, or at least additional resource loss was very real. We in CDF are dealing with the retirement of over 400 experienced employees in the next several years. You with the Forest Service are facing the inexperience that MEL has brought you. Why than are we training local government to do our job when we have so many of our own that need the experience? Worse yet, we are placing our inexperienced personnel in the hands of those who have no experience themselves. It takes years on the job to understand fire behavior and even more years to balance that knowledge with resource application. Now it seems that a classroom, a task book and a team assignment is all that is required to place anyone in the drivers seat. Once upon a time, when a fire occurred in the wildland, the District Ranger became the IC, the FMO (or in CDF’s case the Assistant Ranger) became the operations, and everyone from the dispatcher to the warehouseman filled out the fire’s logistic and planning needs. These people knew fire control in their area and also knew the capabilities of their resources. The fires went out, without political teams, just as they do today. Seems to me there was also a rule about fighting fire in country that you weren’t familiar with as well. So in closing, SoCal Capt., I think there is a more pressing problem then who has had I-520 and who hasn’t. I think we need to ask ourselves who is training our own agencies next generation. If we don’t make some changes, there may not be anymore CDF or USFS teams in R-5. cdfbc
08/31	Some Questions for SAMMI: What are the research priorities at MTDC (Missoula Technical and Development Center and/or other fire research facilities)? Scientists must have a rationale for the science they do, if for no other reason than to apply for and receive funding. How are the priorities determined? There usually is a more or less scientific way of prioritizing. By thinktank (brainstorming by experts with their own research expertise)? By focus groups (of whom)? By poll (of whom)? By priority of cause of injury or death of firefighters? By public opinion? Some combination? (I don't mean to offend by saying death, just need to be real here.) Where does the fire shelter rank in the stack of maybe 15 or 20 most important research areas? Was it even included in the researchable list to be prioritized? If it's not first priority, what's ahead of it? Looking at the research trend (or maybe just out of curiosity), where has the shelter ranked in the past, say in 1980 or '85? Is it closer to the top today? Given its current priority or ranking (which we must assume is not number ONE), what is different today than a year ago (or 15 years ago) that might suggest it should move up? If the fireshelter is considered the top priority or even the second priority, scientists working on it can test it and get it out in record time, much faster than is currently projected. I am convinced of this. We have some smart dudes working for us. Maybe we need to make a case for moving the fireshelter to top priority. Mellie
08/31	Fireronin They may not even hold the firefighters responsible. Just another case of management lip service. How about keeping qualified experienced people home doing project work, while there is a critical shortage of these trained experienced people? If a firefighter is hurt or killed because of a shortage of trained experienced people, I will hold the Chief of the Forest Service and his equals in the Department of Interior RESPONSIBLE! Vinnie
08/31	WA FF, Although an earlier post to this site indicated that the investigation of the 30 mile fire would be out around Labor Day if you look carefully at the cited quote it said that it would be out AFTER Labor Day. Don't hold your breath. Call me cynic but I bet no one will be held responsible but the Firefighters themselves and no mention will be made of inadequate or antiquated fireshelters. Fireronin
08/31	Isn't the ThirtyMile Investigation supposed to be out by Labor Day? Anybody know the status of that document? WA Firefighter
08/31	Here's the first news report I could find. There's not much info on it. It's sad news and our prayers go out to the friends and families of these brave folks. www.billingsgazette.com Beebs Thanks for the link. Sad indeed. Ab. More from Firescribe (who searched on Excite on wlf.com's Links Page-News http://news.excite.com/news/r/010831/15/news-environment-fires-dc http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010831/13/news-western-fires
08/31	Just received word (11:00AM MDT) that a helicopter crash occured on the Fridley Fire in the Gallatin National Forest in Montana. 3 occupants of the helicopter were killed. Details are very sketchy, but our crews have confirmed the crash and the deaths. Scott Peterson, Rough Terrain Technologies Group Proteus Fire Master This has been confirmed. Ab.
08/31	Did the MEA raise to 37 when the retirement age was changed to 57? Thanks, Charlie
08/31	I updated Wildland Firefighter Jobs Series 462 and Series 455. No new postings have come in for the Jobs page, but check out what's there. The Mendocino NF still needs folks. Ab.
08/31	QUESTION FOR SAMMI: Here's one to pose during the TV interview: If you are a firefighter or the relative of a firefighter, how much testing is enough testing for a new shelter design? If the government is providing flame-resistant clothing and fire shelters for your son or daughter, how rigorous do you think the testing should be? kelly.
08/31	This in from Firescribe: www.montanafires.com/headline/scraps.php?id=4 <haw><haw> Funny if it weren't so serious. So I guess the Grizzlies aren't attracted to dirty sox, just food... (You might have to read familysaid to get the context of that one.) Ab.
08/31	The New York Times had a very interesting editorial yesterday, entitled "Playing with Fire", in which the author discussed the Administration's change in attitude toward management of the forest - including fuel reduction. Ab, I don't think you can link to it directly, but I wish you could. It's interesting. Fire Ecologist
08/31	As you see if you read familysaid, I was contacted by a reporter from a TV station in Spokane to do an interview or to help with people who'd be willing to do an interview about the issues with fireshelters. From a personal point of view I have no problem with doing it or coordinating, but I feel it would be important to have some data, percentages and other information I just do not have, in case the interviewers ask for some of those statistics. Ab has offered to forward any answers to me personally as I gather some useful information. Before I offer a list of questions I might need answers to.....how abt some suggestions from you about information you would like to have presented in an interview. And anyone that would be willing to participate, please step forward. I think a mom voicing her opinion from a personal point of view is fine, but I think we also need people who know the nitty gritty on the subject ready to help.....so step forward here folks.....if not to do the interview, at least to help me gather the info to present...... thx Sammi I'd be happy to cut and paste responses to Sammi to keep people's identity anonymous if you like. Just instruct me to "forward" or to "cut and paste". Ab.
08/31	Right on TCH!!!... Its time someone spoke out regarding the CDF teams "being" type 1 incident management teams. They are NOT TYPE 1 Teams and should not be shown as so on the SIT report. Type 1 teams are federally organized, interagency teams with a vast amount of wildland experience throughout the United States and abroad. If CDF wants to have Type 1 teams, then they have to meet all of the quals and not flex their muscle with the NWCG and NIFC. The California (CDF) teams are localized and do not have the national experience as type 1 teams do. They have not completed S-520 (and many related classes) nor do they have the predetermined staff assigned functions of a type 1 team. Many of their positions are filled on RANK and not on experience. They do not meet the national MOB guide requirements. They should be classed as local teams (type 2). No other state shows their teams as such. CDF uses 310-1 for qualifications with the exception of training assignments and a few classes. Once you take the class, you are qualified. In fact, most CDF teams would qualify for type 3 (extended attack) teams, as they do not fill most of the positions that Federal, Interagency Type 1 and 2 teams fill on incidents. Most of the CDF teams positions are filled locally. One last point, with CDF teams presenting themselves as TYPE 1, the experience in type 2 teams is moot. During the Cerro Grande Fire (Los Alamos NM), a type 2 team took over suppression and instituted the first wide-scale rehab effort from a team. This effort involved suppression and a wide scale volunteer, contractor, and employee effort. But at the yearly California team meetings, the type 2 team was bypassed in their presentation by a CDF team presenting a LARGE GRASS FIRE (somewhere around a thousand acres or two) in Northern California. How complex is a large grass fire compared to a large timber, interface fire with national considerations involving thousands of employees and volunteers. I know this is going to be a stir, but its time it is addressed and what the hey... we need to get our minds off of a few things that have happened recently.... SoCal Capt
08/31	Amber: The name of the movie was "In the Line of Duty: Smokejumpers". Keith
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08/30	Hello, I am wondering if you could give me the name of the movie that was created from the storm king fire. Last week, we turned on the t.v., only to catch the VERY end of it, and we had no idea what the name of it was. We would really like to have a copy of it, but we have no idea what the name of it was. It was aired on USA, if that helps at all. My husband is a wildland firefighter, and grew up in the Bend/Redmond, Oregon area. I went to school with Levi Brinkley, and so we'd like to have this movie to share the memories. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Amber
08/30	Our thoughts and prayers are with the friends and family of the two pilots. While they were not officially employees of a public agency, they were members of the family of wildland firefighters.....and they deserve our respect and to be carried in our memories. Thanks to Deeply Concerned for sharing the BJA fact sheet regarding Public Safety Officers' Benefits Program. I was unfamiliar with it, and read it several times, then used my computer to search for "contract" or "contractor" hoping there might be some application......but to no avail. I believe Vinnie is right when he states that the government does not provide benefits to contractors, that those who choose to work through that medium need to provide (or make sure their employer provides) that coverage. I hope such was the case for these two brave souls. Question for our contract wizards who may visit this site: I note on equipment rental agreements, clauses that will have the agency pay for damages to contracted equipment beyond normal wear and tear. Could a clause be included in contracts to provide death/injury benefits? Could a clause be included that mandated that contract bidders must provide death/injury benefits? It is unreal to think that firefighters will not perish in the future. It is not unreal to take action that will provide for financial assistance to their loved ones. Let's work for that. Old Fire Guy
08/30	Ab, Given the current discussion, would you provide this link to a widow's message on the air tanker message board. Children of pilots killed in the line of duty ought to at least get to go to college for free same as if they were children of CDFers killed in the line of duty or vets injured or killed while serving our country. http://www.airtanker.com/wwwboard/messages/4944.html Robbie (sister of a hot shot)
08/30	There was a question a few days ago about the California Teams showing up on the Sit report. There are 3 sets of incident management teams in California. There are the National Type 1 Teams, called Interagency Incident Management Teams, 5 of them (Gage, Vail, Raley, Gelobter, Studebaker). They are primarily federal land management agency personnel with some local government personnel. Then there are the Type 2 teams. There are five or six of these and again they are federal and local government personnel. The difference in the teams is mostly the S-520 exercise and experience. Then there are the CDF Teams. Largely CDF personnel and a few local government trainees now, there are 5 North and 5 South. The South IC's include Ristow, Lombardo, Sappok, and North IC's include Stovall and Walters. (I don't know them all). CDF considers them to be Type 1 and has demanded that they be listed as such on the Sit Report but they do not have S-520 and are short teams, meant to come to an incident and use local talent on the Divisions and Branches. Maybe someday we can all learn to play together and have 5 Type 1 and 5 type 2 TRULY interagency teams. TCH
08/30	This came in from AZ Trailblazer: You may remember that C-Span decided to produce a program about wildland fire management highlighting the National Interagency Fire Center, and an actual fire, the Green Knoll Fire on the Bridger-Teton National Forest. The producer and videographer, Richard and Bob, spent a day at NIFC filming operations and nearly two days on the fire. All told the crew filmed 10 hours of action, tours, interviews, and briefings. The C-Span program will run Monday evening, September 3 (Labor Day) from 9:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. eastern standard time. Larry Hamilton, BLM fire director, and Dennis Pendleton, FS fire director, will travel to Washington to be in-studio with the program's host. The show will include about two-thirds video (about 2 1/2 hours worth) from the NIFC and Green Knoll fire takes, and one-third live question and answer from phone-in callers. Green Knoll IC Joe Carvelho will also call in for about one hour. There will be 21 "vignettes" (6 from NIFC and 15 from the fire) or short video tours, stories or interviews. Again, these will be followed by explanation from Larry, Dennis and Joe. Please notify anyone you know of who is interested or was involved in the program's development. If you have any questions about the program, please contact Nancy Lull at 208.387.5508. Thank you to all who helped facilitate their work, and to those who provided interviews and information. Nancy Lull, External Affairs BLM, Office of Fire and Aviation National Interagency Fire Center
08/30	Mellie, Just a quick note re ATGS before I run out the door... my shot at providing an understanding through analogy. You know how it is on firechat when 11 or so people are online at once. Comments from different people, threads understandable in context but might otherwise seem confusing? Participants have to be quick at filling in the gaps... and someone leaves for a moment to check the SIT and you loose track of em briefly? We can all laugh at the confusion that arises there. It adds to the fun and hysterical mix. Well, the ATGS has a similar situation with listening to a lotta folks at once on one frequency and occasionally having to change freqs to communicate with the ground. It can get confusing... sometimes a serious circus with multiple acts. You can loose track... In the air, all involved know they must do their part in staying aware and communicating. So, the ATGS isn't like an air traffic controller exactly, but does supervise the airshow. At the same time, all who fly also have to do their parts at communicating and watching out (amid smoke and fireweather). Communication can be hairy at times... and the consequences of failure in awareness and/or communication are life threatening. The investigation will sort it out. The possibilites as to why it happended are many. AL
08/30	Hi all, here's a comment made to strike fear into your heart, yes it really happened Scenario: Urban interface wildland fire, 2 hoses with 2 FF on each extended out 300 feet per hose, engine down to 1/4 full, Police Dept at scene doing traffic duties, Question: Engineer asked if he wants 2 lengths of hose pulled over to the hydrant. Answer: "No because it would block the road and upset the residents" Result: 4 firefighters running back to the engine after dropping the now dry hoses. Thank goodness we don't deal with that crew much, wonder how many times they have to deploy their shelters?? Basque
08/30	Just a Quick note to express my deep condolences to the families of the air tanker pilots involved in the Hopland Fire tragedy. I am always shocked when I find out that our respective wildland fire fighting agencies have so many loop holes denying compensation for injuries suffered while performing our duties. I wanted to pass on to interested folks that perhaps the Public Safety Officers Benefits Program (PSOB) Act (42 U.S.C. 3796, et seq.) might be of use in this situation, as well as others (situations involving catastrophic injuries or death related to emergency operations) with similar circumstances. Ab, I'm not sure how you might post the PSOB Act, but I've included it as an attachment. Thank you for such a great web venue to express, and read about firefighting opinion. Deeply Concerned. I've put the PSOB Act on our site the way it came in, as a pdf file. To open it requires Adobe Acrobat (free software - you can find a link for acrobat at the NIFC site). Thanks for sending in the PSOB. Ab. www.wildlandfire.com/docs/PSOB.pdf
08/30	A special Thanks to the Air tanker Pilots and the Helo Pilots It sure is a nice warm fuzzy feeling when you know these guys are around to try and drop stuff on your head. It's kind a like having a guardian angle with a giant water gun. On fires we get to see the other folks, dozer dudes, engine slugs, hand crew folks, and water tender guys, etc. We get to give them a hard time for being who they are and the good job that they do. In other words we get to say thanks and see faces and learn names and have a working relationship. That usually isn't the case with pilots and the air crews, they are out there and they certainly are part of the firefighting team, but you rarely get to meet them and interact with them like you do all the other fire junkies. I just want to take the time to thank the pilots and air crews who support us. Not just the Pilots, although they are the giant nozzle where the wet stuff comes from, but the mechanics and retardant loaders and dispatchers and all the other people you don't see that get they noisy, nasty, smelly, life saving firefighting machines in the air and to the fires to help all of us on the ground. It's too bad you guys can't hang out with us sometimes cause if you were with my group you wouldn't have to buy any drinks. Thanks for you help, sometimes you folks are a REAL LIFESAVER! Everybody be safe out there Mr. Fire hasn't taken his winter vacation just yet. L.A.V.E.
08/30	Mellie and peterpan; Yes, congress and our government and the State of California say Lars and Larry were only pilots, contractors, not Firefighters. You and I, and Lars wife Terri, and their two boys, might argue that, but there ain't no Federal or State Firefighter death benefits here. Is it wrong, YES. Is it a major disgrace, YES. Will it change, ........only when you and I and all those folks out there like us who pray the tankers will come to help us, stand up, write our legislative representatives, and demand justice. Condit's got the media tied in knots, but look at what the media's saying about these folk, "Aerial Firefighting Pilots die...." "Firefighters killed in a mid air collision ......." Why in Gods name doesn't that apply with regards to the Firefighters death benefit ? Lars was a good man, Larry as well, each would give you the shirt off his back or fly into the eye of the DRAGON if they thought it would help you and I. Why can't OUR government see that ? I don't know. Can't say POLITICS cause these folks serve the politicians. The tankers are a favorite backdrop for the rich and powerful. Can't say expense when we're spending Trillion$ on defense and such and we're asking for a measly $50,000 for each of these folks. Really for their families. Can't say fairness cause Lars and Larry died for us, and the folks of California, .....taken care of THEIR families is fair. Abandoning them like lepers or grafters or whatever isn't. Airtanker crews are the bastard children of the fire service. Federal, State, and provincial. Yet without them, you and I would be bare naked when the wind blows or changes, or humidity drops and the the spots start taken, or the Division makes a mistake. I'm sending my Fire money, $100 a piece, to Associated Airtanker Pilots for two guys who were my brothers, AND their families, MY family, cause the government can't see its way clear to honor hero's. I'm sending it to the Associated Airtanker Pilots "Memorial Fund" in memory of Larry Groff and Lars Stratte C/O Newhart Bookkeeping 711D Healdsburg Ave. Healdsburg, CA 95488 To do what's right. I know whats right. And so do all of you. Sign me "Northern Michael" Thanks Ab. Lars was a good friend to me and to Fire fighters. Many times he flew the Plumas. His wife and children shouldn't suffer like this.

08/30	Anyone who contracts with the federal government does not qualify for any benefits. Does not matter if you are on an engine, a pilot, or wash cars. Contractors better have some good insurance or no bennies. Vinnie
08/30	In response to recent posts: Oobviously PP, you've done your homework. Congrats and TY for sharing your comments. Methinks contract CDF pilots should insist on the same SCIF blanket coverage for workers' comp ins that is available for disaster service worker volunteers and the SAR teams. (If my bosses read this, I'm history.) As you so aptly stated: indeed, this latest tragedy should have been avoided; and yes, the general public has no idea about wildland firefighting. Yes, the media is "getting educated" FINALLY (some even report on the difference between containment & control), but the focus remains misdirected. I've read some excellent posts in "they said" - the posts raise the conscientiousness of all readers. OldR5 guy, Melly & PPthe engine slug, your posts have merit! TO ALL ON THE FIRE SCENE: BE SAFE! one foot in the black & a sharp eye out for the sneaky dangers. old&grey in R5
08/30	Mellie, Wondered if anyone else was looking past the press hype of catching the person that started the fire the AT pilots were killed on. A rookie lawyer will get this guy off without a whole lot of effort. They will cop a plea for a reduced sentence by: 1) Admitting he manufactured Meth. 2) He accidently started the fire. Then the lawyer will attack the CDF for violating their own, or some federal aviation rules, and he's "Got'em". There had to be some violation of some basic rules, otherwise both planes would not have been occupying the same airspace at the same time. I am afraid by the time this is all said and done, it's is going to be turned back on CDF and/or the pilots. I hate to see this, but don't be surprised if it happens. If it had been a deliberate arson start it might have been hard to get this guy a reduced sentence, but so far I have not heard the arson word used on the news. Too bad the "Slime Ball" could not get the chair just for making Meth!! Wonder how many people he has killed with that crap and he doen't even know it. Come to think of it, he can now add two more to his list. If he had not been manufacturing Meth, he would not have started the fire. For those of you in wildland fire that may think drugs, including pot, is a victimless crime; maybe this will make you reevaluate your thought process. Firehorse
08/30	hi, The FEMA grant actually totals $100 million this year. FEMA has asked for another $100M for next year. 19,700 departments made about 30,000 requests (you could make 2 requests) for a total of $2.98 billion. So far they have awarded 49.5 M. The awards are announced on Mondays. We just got a letter from FEMA saying our second request (a truck to replace a type 6 brush) was not funded. Our first request (pumps) is pending. More info at http://www.usfa.fema.gov/grants r vfd
08/30	at approx 1200 hrs, there is a nice delta breeze making it's way into the valley from the SF bay area (bringing their smog), it promises cooler temps and lower humidity to the central Sierra region. Be safe out there! R5er
08/29	hi all, I think its okay for now that law enforcement is focusing on nailing the person who started the Hopland fire. The media is simply reporting that as news and as a dramatic background to memorializing the dead pilots as heroes, which they are. In this case I have faith the true causes of this tragedy will be found and organizational steps will be taken to try and ensure it does not happen again. The FAA/NTSB investigation team will be quietly going about its business. There are many other players in this tragedy-- but none of them have influence over the crash investigators. That's a different situation from the can of worms that a burnover tragedy used to be when the agencies implicated were essentially investigating themselves. There must be some CDF folks in some terrible agony and suffering now. I read in the paper today that the collision happened directly above one BC. He had eye contact with a pilot he knew personally as the man's plane went straight into the ground a hundred feet away. Whover erred, it was an accident. Good people make mistakes when they are hot and tired, when they are blinded by smoke or the sun, when for just a moment their skill level is exceeded by accumulated exhaustion, when there are too many things to do, too many things to think about, and too many things in motion, in a fatal unforgiving few minutes of time. Its a sad and tragic learning cue, for everybody, whatever that lesson turns out to be. KGO talk radio devoted several hours to the crash yesterday. I was pleased by the emotion expressed by civilians who called in from their cell phones. They know nothing about wildland fire, but they've seen the planes fly over and they can understand a simple concept such as, those guys are our heroes and let's hang the drug dealer. The gnashing of teeth and finger pointing that is frequently a part of this wildland fire subculture will be lost on the public, as well it should be, cuz what does the public care about the devil's details? To paraphrase Carl Jung: understanding and imagination are fired by things that resonate in the realm of myths, dreams, and symbols. To the public its all about the emotions, rather than the fireline handbook. Those of you who can remember, think back to what has changed since the turning point of the South Canyon tragedy. Groundpounders are no longer regarded by the general public as a cadre of idiots leading the unskilled, doing a filthy job that only a fool could love. Congress suddenly is supportive. The four who died at 30 mile got a huge State funeral with a parade and millions mourned their loss. Now the crash of some tanker guys aren't annonymous casualties buried on a back page of a regional paper like in times past, but a major news story that is instructing the whole nation about the role of air tankers in wildfire-- and the poignant sacrifices made by dedicated pilots and their families. The public and the media today want to love a wildland firefighter whether on the ground or in the air, no matter what logo is afixed to the side of the rig, what color nomex they wear, or who the legal employer is. The worm, as they say, has turned. Despite all their blundering, the media is finally starting to want to get the story straight and the public is beginning to really care. And I think that's just great. Who do the pilots work for? During the last 25 years, in a narrow and somewhat triangular slice of airspace-- from the Sonoma Air attack Base over to Ukiah and from there over to Cow Mountain--five air tankers have been lost. I think its five. All were contract employees. In the case of the Sis-Q B-17 pilot who was killed (in 1976?) workers compensation was provided by State Comp Insurance Fund. They refused to pay survivor's benefits to his widow and unborn child because the couple were "just living together" and not legally married. She sued them. CDF was also sued, unsuccessfully, by both her and State Comp. They tried to argue that the pilot's job as an emergency responder should have been covered by the same Employee benefits as permanent CDF people. The suits and counter suits dragged on, I think, for almost eight years. CDF, as in similar cases, was judged to have no liability at all. So, the question of who these pilots work for is now by precedent a separate matter from what they do-- or even how we feel about what they do. Legally speaking, they don't work for CDF, and their employee status is similar to transportation company bus drivers who ferry crews to fires. And we seem to become indignant about it only when they die. As with other politically driven processes the State Legislature will bring contract tanker pilots into the CDF fold if and when public opinion, elections, and budgetary allocations come into alignment to make that possible. Can anybody with real knowledge speak to the question of whether the contract pilots would prefer to be agency employees or not? --Peter Pan (AKA Camp Slug)
08/29	I do not pretend to know all the details of the FEMA grants, but I will share what info I do have. The money (over $1 billion) was appropriated by Congress after the terrible fire season last summer. There was an application process, but the deadlines were months ago. The total amount requested was more than twice the amount of money that they had to give away. There were different categories (PPE, training, equipment, trucks, communication, etc.) and I think you could apply for up to three categories. We applied for two and are still waiting to hear if we got any money for new communication equipment. They have been making announcements weekly about which departments are getting grants. I do not know if there are additional rounds of grants, or if this was just a one time thing. It sure was a blessing to our small department. By the way, I loved the historic smokejumper pictures. My dad was a smokejumper in the mid-50s. Take care & Adios, CJD Carol, VFD FF
08/29	Here are some internet links to stories about the fires in norCAL from Firescribe that were prompted by R5Mom: www.sacbee.com www.thekcrachannel.com/ www.kxtv10.com/ And a few more links to tributes to Larry Groff www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/29pilots_a1.html and Lars Stratte www.redding.com/top_stories/local/20010829toplo008.shtml
08/29	Hi All, Mellie here again. Between the fire in Weaverville and the AT pilots' deaths, I spent a restless night. I have a hard question to ask. Regardless of how the fire in the Hopland area started, is it not the responsibility of the ATGS to coordinate the overhead (air) operations? I realize that an investigation is underway, but it disturbs me greatly that the media is focused on how the fire was started and by whom. That's starting to feel like a smoke screen to deflect negative public opinion. To learn from this, we must discover how two air tankers could have been in such close proximity to begin with. Yes, I know there was smoke and I know from driving hwy 101 every other weekend for a few years that the evening sun can be blinding... But when such conditions exist, I pull over to adjust my visor or my sunglasses, I don't just keep driving blindly. As I understood it from my FFI class when Steve Hubbard instructed us, the ATGS is the IC of the air ops. It is their responsibility to provide a safe 3-D workspace. On this fire, I heard the ATGS had 7-9 air tankers and a number of helos to coordinate. Don't the non-active ATs orbit away from the main fire to be called in on the same "salad bowl" flight path to dump their load and move on, leaving room (at least 500 feet of separation) for the next or for a helo drop? I'm just wondering what happened here? Mis-communication? Too much to coordinate? A pattern that was too tight? I know we need time for the investigative process to work, but please, those in charge should make it absolutely clear to the media that the CDF and NTSB powers-that-be are doing more than just focusing on those who started the fire. The fire community and AT families should be receiving more reassurance that the real cause of this mid-air collision will be determined, even if someone's butt is on the line and/or some agency looks worse than sterling. We have some serious lessons to learn here. This better not just be a case of "blame the firestarters", "high risk profession" and "pilot error". One other thing, both of these fine men had children, Larry has a step-son and two grown daughters and Lars has two sons, if I recall correctly. Is it true they will not receive benefits that other CDFer's families receive (whose breadwinners die in the line of duty) - because their dads "just contracted" for CDF? Please, someone, tell me that this info is incorrect. Such a policy seems absolutely WRONG to me! As fire professionals, we should be taking care of families of our own. Mellie
08/29	P. Huntington, Donations made in Larry's name be sent to AAP's memorial fund. Haven't heard yet about donations made in Lars name. Associated Airtanker Pilots "Memorial Fund" In Memory of Larry Groff C/O Newhart Bookkeeping 711D Healdsburg Ave. Healdsburg, CA 95488 Flyguy
08/29	Jeremy: The eastern region (R9) of the Forest Servie is in the process of developing a Hot Shot crew. The base for this crew is not in Michigan, but at Midewin Tall Grass Prairie just west of Chicago. The crew is currently classified as a type 2 crew. With experience (and when they meet established standards) they will become a type 1 crew and eventually a Hot Shot crew......probably take 3 years to reach that status. At this moment the crew is on its first assignment in R6. The last I heard they were still in need of crew members and hoping to get a full time superintendent and foremen. Currently they have excellent leadership on loan from R8. Old Fire Guy
08/28	1915 PDT: There's a fairly large fire (500+ acres) in rugged, extremely dry NorCal, near Weaverville, CA, the county seat for Trinity Co. The fire started at 1430 near the Oregon Mt Summit along Hwy 299 and has been pushed east and now downhill by northwesterly winds that have become stronger (gusting to 24 mph) this evening and are expected to persist until midnight. There is spotting up to 1/4 mi away. Trinity County Hospital, the jail, the houses in the Kelso subdivision have been evacuated. There are about 150 people working on the fire which is under CDF jurisdiction. Line is being built on the flanks and the fire is about 5% contained, but crews have been pulled off the flanks numerous times this afternoon to move to the head to protect structures. As we had our little bitty rain last week, I wanted to remind people that a little rain doesn't wet down the 100 and 1000 hour fuels. A few days of heat and drying breezes take us right back into dangerous conditions. Please be careful my dear friends. Not even a house is worth a life. Condolences to the family and friends of the lost pilots. I have heard that they were truely fine human beings, loving and living life to the fullest and a real help to friends in need. They will be missed. And to my friends on Carlson's Team on the Star Fire, "Ya'll be careful down in that Hells Hole area, ya'hear! It didn't get that name for nothin'!" ALL of you now, listen to me -- Mind your fire behavior and safety training! Take nothing for granted, even mopup. Be safe. Mellie Update at 2100: With erratic winds, the fire has jumped to 1000+ acres. Structures in Weaverville have burned. No one has been injured. Wow, be careful!!! Update at 2300: Fire is currently 1300+ acres, has 2 heads, ugly. Smoky, smoky. Weaverville (population 3000) is being manditorally evacuated. About half the town has left. Most of the structures are antique wood, vulnerable to fire, and 12+ have burned. The good news is that the wind has dropped. The goal tonight is to save the town. More than 400 ff are fighting fire now. Thanks you all!! Sunrise is expected to bring high winds. But air support will be available. Thanks in advance. Hwy 299 and Hwy 3 are closed. Please BE SAFE! Update 08/29 at 0600: 1948 acres burned 9 homes, 3 mobile homes, no power, telephone lines are down, schools closed. 1200+ ff are fighting the fire. Thanks guys and thanks for the air support! Winds are down but expected to kick back in on Thurs.
08/28	The Jobs page, Series 462 and Series 455 pages are updated. Ab.
08/28	I just read of the two pilots killed in the mid air collision, my heart felt condolence to the family, friends and co workers. If someone/organization has begun a monitary collection for the families, I would like to participate, please advise. Thank you for your time and please keep safe. P. Huntington
08/28	To the TheySaid Board at Wildandfire.com, I was wondering if you had any information about a type I crew being formed in Michigan or in that Region. I've had no luck finding information about it on other sites. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Jeremy P.S. Someone recommended to me that I direct my question to "Old Fire Guy". That he might know something too.
08/28	A MUST-SEE TV Program: I saw a program note on CSPAN, on Labor Day, starting 6pm PACIFIC TIME, they will be holding a three hour LIVE show from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho. There will be a tour of the center and viewers will be able to call in with questions, etc. Danny Danny, can you tape it so we can pass it around later to those who are still on the fireline on Labor Day? Ab.
08/28	mt: It's too bad you received different direction from the various teams. I am on Walker's Team and I thought our instruction to the Check-In Recorders was very clear. Our interpretation was similar to Carvelho's Type I team's interpretation. The policy says the first day counted toward your 14 day assignment is the initial check-in date of your current fire assignment. Carvelho's and Walker's team consistently agreed that because you may check-in very late in the day, you could lose a day of "work" because your check-in date and time was too late to put you out on the line. So we agreed that the initial date you worked was more appropriate. As far as travel goes, this is what the Check-in Recorders were instructed for travel... When counting 14 days: Travel to the fire from the home unit and travel from from the fire to the home unit DOES NOT COUNT. Travel between assignments DOES COUNT. When counting 21 days (after an extension is formally requested): All days, INCLUDING TRAVEL COUNTS toward the 21 days. So, when you're requesting an extension from 14 to 21 days, you really only get about 3-4 more days of work from that resource. Here are some problems that I see that contribute to the inconsistency in implementing this policy... The ICS-211 Check-In forms do not include a block to record your initial check-in/work date because they have not been updated since the policy was implemented. The check-in date and time may NOT be the initial check-in date. It's just the date the resource checked in at that particular incident. The Status Check-In Recorder position is a CRITICAL position when you consider the information they are required to record. Yet these positions are qualified through "self study" guides, and more often than not, the people performing this job have never done it before. (That was the case on the Highway Fire. Although, I want to say the individuals performing this job were extremely conscientious and did they best they could with no training other than the OJT they got on the fire...) We have talked a great deal about the loss of firefighters in suppression, but support (also known as militia) personnel are not available to serve in these critical positions, regardless of the qualification prerequisites. Believe me, I understand your frustration. We have been experiencing this frustration for many years. Thank you for listening to my explanation. I'm not making excuses. I just wanted to present "the other side" of the story... Take care and be safe!!! SoCal IMT 1 RESL
08/28	It is with a heavy heart that I let all you fellow firefighters know of yet more deaths this fire season. Yesterday at the Ukiah air attack base two air tankers were involved in a midair collision. There were no survivors. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of these brave men who do some damn fine work. I will update you folks as to the names of the pilots. There is one person in custody at this time and there is talk of charging them with murder. The link to the articles in the paper is www.presdemo.com Sadly yours. L.A.V.E. The link I put up early last night has been updated as more info becomes available. The names of the pilots are there: www.thekcrachannel.com/sac/news/localnews/ Ab. More from Firescribe: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/28tanker_a1.html http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/28pilot_a1.html
08/28	Just recently returning from a 14 day assignment from the Modoc Blue fire, spent two days travel to the fire. After 10 days of night shift we were demobed, and reassigned to the Highway Fire in Seqouia (walkers Team) we were told our travel from the Modoc did not count toward our 14 days. The new directive states travel to an incident and from an incident and any travel inbetween does not count toward your 14 days. Yet the next day when a Type I team from the Northern Rockies takes over the fire, our travel between fires does count, but to find that 14 days is only worthy of 1 day of R & R. And on the Blue Fire our 14 days started the day we checked in, on the Highway Fire it started the day we were on the fire line. It seems a difference of opinion can mean the difference of several days. What is the new directive, and why can't the Fire Teams working in Region 5 at least be in some kind of agreement? So if you travel 2 days to a incident and spend 10 days on the fire then get demobed to another incident spend 2 days travel there, spend 4 days there, plus 2 days travel home, you still have only 14 days on a fire, and 1 day R & R. How is this fair? Someone please enlighten me on the 14 day rule. And how does it improve the well being of everybody for the purpose of safety? mt
08/28	Tonites (8/27) news report about the fatalities in NZ CA is devistating. My CONDOLENCES TO THE FAMILIES OF THE PILOTS, AND ALL IN THE WILDFIRE COMMUNITY. I believe I speak for all who were in the this chat room tonite. Heads up to those on the line, be safe out there! Mom
08/28	Heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of the two tanker pilots. A few sites to visit as we take a moment of silence in their honor... And let's also remember Doug Gilbert who died in July on the same day as the kids on the 30-mi fire. Memorial page for all fallen pilots at the air tanker pilots website: www.airtanker.com/aap/memorial.htm Their names will be added at the bottom. Memorial page on the S2 site: www.trisev.com/Stoof/s-2f.htm
08/27	Local TV news reports that 2 CDF air tankers collided mid-air near Ukiah - details are sketchy. Ukiah news reporter states, CDF confirms pilots of both planes are fatalities. The tankers collided mid- air approx 1900 this eve. Please convey my sympathy to the families of those sky warriors who lost their lives today. R5erMom This has been confirmed by CDF and here: www.thekcrachannel.com/sac/news/localnews/ Our prayers are with the families. Ab.
08/27	FYI - The photo you have posted under the "Wallpaper" section of your website, labelled "Idaho," was taken on the Clear Creek fire (in the Big Creek area), July 27, 2000. I believe the photographer was Kim Soper, FBAN for Joe Carvelho's Type 1 team. It was on a Zip disk he left behind when the next team (Bateman) came in; I was working with the FBAN on Bateman's team at the time. That was one of many of his photos I included in a fire behavior & weather CD compilation through Sept. for that fire. No problem with the photo being on the web site - the official disclaimer on the CD is similar to yours - "use the photos for training, education, research, personal enjoyment, etc.; just don't sell them or use them for profit." Just wanted the photographer to get credit; he took some good pictures early on at Clear Creek. Glad to see some good photos out there from last year's season. Kelly Close FBAN Poudre Fire Authority Excellent info Kelly. Thank you. Kim Soper did a terrific job with that photo. We have it on our main page as well. We knew it came from one of the Idaho fires in 2000. It's good to know it was the Clear Creek. On some photos that are from public domain collections, we are not provided with complete information. Readers, if any of you know the history or photographer behind any of the photos we post with incomplete info, please send it so we can fill it in on the description page. We want photographers to get the credit they diserve and we'd like to have as much info on each photo as possible. Ab.
08/27	Boise on Fire: It looks like there is about a 200 acre grass fire south of the airport. We lost all power to our building, which shut down the phones and computers. NICC was on backup power, so they should be ok. Redflag
08/27	Hey - Just wanted to pass on the link to the Virginia Lake Complex fires in Washington State. Don't know if you link from your site to specific fire web sites.... www.virginialakecomplex.com Thanks, Jennifer Thanks, Jennifer. Yes we do link to specific fire web sites. Readers, there are a couple of nice photographic galleries on this site. If you want to see where this complex is, take a look at the large fire map.
08/27	The Snowshoe fire on the Salmon-Challis blew up yesterday. Anyone have any current news on it? I could see it from my cabin 60 miles away. In Stanley, Idaho
08/27	I recently read an article that stated "Forty hours of training is all that's required to get on the fire lines". Is forty hours really enough training? I'll try to explain my thought process on this subject. I have been a Forest Ranger in the State of Florida since 1994. Upon being selected as a Ranger, I was required to fulfill a local unit contract before I could even think about going on to further training. After the contract is complete, which by the way includes training in the use of Fire Shelters, you can then proceed with further training. As you progress, you attend First Responder, Structure Firefighting, and Wildland basic Fire Control training. In all you receive about 500 hours of training. After all that training, I still don't consider myself an expert in wildland firefighting. I have a lot of knowledge, but every fire is new to me and takes on it's own personality. I am just as weary and cautious on every fire as I was my first fire. I always plan for the worst fire behavior to happen. I have had some wonderful mentors also. They are the ones who have taught me not to jump before looking at how far down it is if you fall. LCES is pounded into you during this entire process also. Safety for yourself and your co-workers is the most important thing you can do. I suppose that after all the training and mentoring I have had over the years, I just can't understand how 40 hours of training is enough. The State of Florida has a wonder training program and some excellent instructors. Some of the training here is open enrollment which means it is not restricted to Florida's employees only. It could be very beneficial if you want to check it out. www.fl-dof.com/FCWFRMT/index.html Classes and dates are listed. I just can't see how 40 hours is enough!! As I read the family postings, I just sit back, read and realize what a wonderful group of people the firefighting family is. There are no arguments on who has the best crews, or best jobs. All you read on that site is the love and concern that Moms, Dad's, Brothers, Sisters, and Grandparents have for their families that are on the lines. As in the "Fire Shelter" issue currently at the forefront, the firefighters can voice their concerns but with the families taking action also we certainly have a better chance of someone taking action on capital hill. The old saying "It will take an act of congress" will most certainly be true in this situation. The families are right, get those e-mails, letters and phone calls happening and maybe we will see one of those "acts of congress". One writer wrote that if we can forgive debts owed to us from other countries, we could afford new fire shelters. How many fire shelters could have been purchased with the money we spent to bail out the mexican government? I am very proud to be a member of the firefighting family. I am also very proud of the firefighters families. We are certainly all one, whether it be Federal, State, Private Timber Companies or Contractors. Please be safe out there and always take a good look around you and ahead of you. See ya on the line or on the "fire chat". Ranger
08/26	A couple of articles compliments of Firescribe who sez, "Check the wlf.com current news listing for more good articles": Reported problems this season: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com More about the Thirtymile Fire and a report that the investigation will be out by Labor Day: www.msnbc.com/news
08/26	Don't forget to pop on over to FamilySaid to see what's up. Ab.
08/26	Thx R5...your explanation of hot shots-strike teams was a big help. Everytime I think I have this FF lingo conquered someone comes home with a whole different language.One of our kids is on a strike team and I was starting to get confused. Which happens a lot. Inmates: Our son was on a structure protection engine last year down around Lewiston, Idaho with an inmate crew.(clarification, he wasn't an inmate) He said they were really good firefighters and very conscientious and friendly. He saw some of them again last week and they remembered him so they reminisced a bit. Shelters: as pillows.....Funny!!!!! but true, and I bet they have been used plenty of times as such. I have tried to find information on how to actively and efficiently start a "riot" oops, not really. Seriously if anyone knows of a "how to" book or information on how to start and proceed with making significant changes, lobbying, etc, we could really use a how-to map. I would hate to have everyone spend all this time and energy on changing the shelters and then find out we could have been more effective doing it another way. Open to any suggestion..... sammi
08/26	Ab(s), thanks for creating 'family said'. Awesome idea! Sammi-- I don't think anyone addressed your question about the difference between Hotshot Crews and Strike Teams. You probably already know this but Hotshot crews or Type I Crews are 20 person crews with built in overhead that includes a Superintendent, 2 Foremen, and 2 or 3 Squad Leaders (if there is the extra one, they usually run the sawyers). There is a whole rash of requirements that are needed to qualify as a Hotshot Crew, some of which include having a minimum of 5 radios, personnel that are dozer boss, firing boss, air ops, etc rated, specific training for crew members in addition to normal firefighter training, and having, at maximum, only 2 people on the crew that have no previous fire experience. We have Hotshot trainee crews this year. They will remain in training and be dispatched as trainee crews until 2003 fire season, and only then if they meet all the training and experience requirements. If you want more info, I am sure you can obtain a copy of the Hotshot Handbook somewhere online, I just don't know where to find it. Anyone? CDF refers to their inmate crews as Type I, however they are not Hotshot Crews with the requisite training, and only carry the designation of Type I within Region 5. (They still do an excellent job none-the-less; I believe they have very strict training specific to CDF, however, I never worked for CDF, just with the inmate crews on the line, so I don't know exactly what their training is). A strike team, when referring to Hotshot Crews, is 2 Hotshot Crews that are mobilized together as a unit, with a Strike Team Leader overseeing the whole parade. A Strike Team of engines is made up of 5 engines, not necessarily all the same type or even from the same agency. Also, I applaude your activism in reference to the new Roth Shelter. I sure would like to see the government address this issue immediately. The current ones are pretty much only good for a make-shift pillow. Figured I would tack this last on since Murray (great guy/great book) got a plug :) Check out Young Men and Fire by Norman Maclean, excellent book going all the way back to '49. Good insight into why firefighters go back year after year even after tragedy strikes. Old R5'er I just want to remind people that we have a Fire Books page and a FF Reviews page here at wlf.com. We have a little agreement with Amazon.com that if someone buys anything on their site after entering through the wildlandfire.com portal - which you can do by clicking on any book cover/title on either page - we get a small commission. You can buy anything from a computer or camera to any other book, and wlf.com benefits. We don't benefit if you bookmark Amazon and go directly there the next time. Ab.
08/25	Greetings All, After reading r3firetaz's post, a little anger set in. I know the team that was on the Fish fire, either individually or on team assignments, and I have always found them to be both experienced and professional. Its always easier to take potshots from hiding than it is to present your concerns to the team. If you have a legitimate safety concern, it is your duty and responsibility to bring it up to the Safety officer, Ops Chief, or the IC. EVERYONE benefits when safety is improved, and by not airing your concerns, they will not be addressed, and nothing is gained. Sorry, Ab, every once in a while I climb upon my soapbox to shake my fist at whatever is putting a burr under my saddle. I now must find out how far it is to the ground from said soapbox. Stay Safe everyone, Beigefoot
08/25	This goes out to a group of friends that I lost touch with (Red, Dave, Tony and Russ) Russ I heard you turned structure back east somewhere. Just to let you know I got a full time job on a UH-60 Blackhawk as a fight medic. But they farm us out to do fires. I got the job of teaching these fly boys ground firefighting. Its a good job. I remember one time when Dave, Russ and I were being flown in to a fire and Dave looked at me and said "we are being paid to do this?" That stuck in my head. You guys would love it. The ship I fly in can carry 850 gal in a bambi and the Firehawk can carry 1200 gal in a CDF belly tank. I just got back from the fires in eastern Oregon and am waiting to go out any day now. Well, Gotta go. I think about you guys every day and hope that you are safe. I know we have been doing this for a long time and our odds, or in Daves case Karma, will catch up sometime, LOL. later, Dan
08/24	Here's a link to the FEMA site and the FIRE Act program. www.usfa.fema.gov/grants/ It has been funded for another year with 100 million dollars. Its kind of tricky to complete the forms and is a competitive process so all grant writing assistance you can get will help. Also there are a couple of exclusions such that, if you are federally funded already, it is not available. There is another program that provides some funding to Fire Services that respond to Federal incidents but I can't remember where the info is. We have had to be very creative in funding our VFD with hamburger suppers, donation letters, and grant writing among other things. Raffles are also pretty good for raising some funds. To keep costs low, I have resorted to building a lot of our own equipment in house, from tenders to aspirating foam nozzles and remote control attack nozzles. I built a high rate expansion nozzle that costs me $25.00 to build and it works as well as any factory nozzle. We also build our own low expansion rate nozzles that costs us only $1.25 to build. If you want to see how resourceful a lot of people can be in scrounging, talk to some Vollies and see how they manage. If anyone wants to see what these fittings look like, just holler. I've some pictures of them around here somewhere. Stay safe, Keith
08/24	ASSISTANCE TO FIREFIGHTERS GRANT PROGRAM The application date for this program expired on May 2, 2001. They are still awarding grants from the original applications. Go here to see ALL the information. www.usfa.fema.gov/grants/ Here's another article: www.usfa.fema.gov/grants/update.htm Jim
08/24	Ab; Those FEMA grants can be used for wildland firefighting gear. Just last week a VFD in South Dakota called me up and told me they picked up a $32,000 grant from FEMA for wildland PPE. They have about 30 members. The kicker is they have to spend it by the end of the federal fiscal year. I would sure recommend that our vollies nationwide look at this funding mechanism. Jim "Hurricane"
08/24	We have a crew here from Alabama in the Okanogan Valley. There are, or I should say the last time I heard (Tues.), close to 5000 firefighters from all over in the valley. Its been cool, and we had some rain Monday and Tues. but its going to heat up this weekend, along with gusting winds. We are looking at the temp. starting to climb again next week. This is the first R&R for my crew, and they were really looking forward to it. I know how hard the wait can be, my dad was a firefighter, and now my nephew. 11 years ago when he told me this was what he wanted to do, my heart went to my throat. Every year he went out, the pacing started and the worry was always there. When we decied to start our own company he was the first person I hired, 1) because he's good at what he does, 2) Im so proud of him, and 3) yes, I know where he is. We are closer than ever and it helps his family not to worry as much, they can call and Im able to say where they are for that day. I wish there was a way every family could find out where their loved one is. I encourage the families of the other 5 f.f.s we have to call day or night, and if I don't have the answer I will do my best to get it. I never start a day without a prayer for every man and woman out there fighting to save homes, forests and lives. Be assured,the valley is treating your husbands,sons and daughters with the respected they deserve. Cookies, candy, and any other goodie that can be thought of are being taken to the different camps, people sit along side the road and hand my men water as they go by, treats of all kinds, and I get many calls a day asking where a bake good can be taken to show their thanks. Well I've rambled on enough, but thought some of you that may have someone dear, here in our valley might want just a little news. Oddie P.S. You can be proud of the great job they are all doing.
08/24	Hello all from atta_gal... I just wanted to check in and say that I think all of you are doing a wonderful job... I was wondering however, has anyone ran into a JobCorps crew out there? My son is on the Timberlake JobCorps, Crew 2. He finally called me this morning. He has been at a spike camp, at the Olallie Lake Complex... the east side, for the past week. Does anyone have photos for posting of the JobCorps crews? He sounded SOOO.... tired and very proud. My one and only baby is growing up... He told me that he now understands what it is to work hard and that as a FF, he didn't know how I could do it... He said people were very tired and hungry. He asked me to post this for him... Hello my name is Shane, I know you folks work very hard... Thank you for the opportunity to go to a wildfire, to get some good experience and to earn extra money and to meet some really cool people. Please stay safe out there... It's an honor to serve you and to serve with you... Shane couldn't speak to me for very long, he had a 5 minute limit. He is really hoping to get a fire shirt and/ or a hat pin, but says he doesn't know if he'll be able to because 1 of the 10 kids on his crew, who's under 18, went to a commisary and attempted a purchase of $200.00 worth of cigarettes. The JobCorps kids are only allowed so many cigarettes per month...Because of that incident, all of his crew was barred from commissary priveleges. No cameras, no nothing... Supposedly there's some type of mediation about that going on... Anyways, I would also like to add this personal note to all of you from me... Thank you so very much for taking my son under your wings and looking out for him... I am so very proud of him and am thankful to you folks for being good role models for him during his journey into "Growing up and learning what the real world is all about when it comes to hard work and team playing". He is learning that there really is more to life than immediate gratifications, drugs and alcohol. Well, I guess I'll go for now, y'all... Keep a foot in the black... Good work, pats on the backs, hugs and lots of atta gals and atta guys to you all. Atta_gal.
08/24	Series 462 and Series 455 pages are updated. The Jobs page has some fine offerings from Tuesday. Nothing new today. Ab.
08/23	To the MT guy (Paul) seeking funding info: There's been some discussion on firechat about funding for equipment for Volunteer Fire Departments. I took good notes and those chatting agreed that I could share them here. Thanks to them. If anyone else has info, please write in. Recipients of Fire Grants, a new nationwide grant program from USFA in FEMA were announced this week (see also Firescribe's link to the article yesterday). These grants are "supposed" to be a multiple year deal if funding is received. However, commentors suggest the fire grant program is probably more tailored for structure fire use. No one had heard of any awards for wildland fire. Here's the link: www.usfa.fema.gov/grants/ One firefighter suggested the following as another good place for the MT person to check for info and advice. www.firefighting.com/default.asp?goto=grant From a midwestern firefighter (as close as my notes allow), "We get our wildland PPE, backpacks, drop tanks, & pumps from the GSA contract. Our state forester allows depts to order from GSA thru them. It can save lots of money. However, sometimes things are cheaper elsewhere. We also get FEPP (Federal Excess Personal Property) thru our state forester for free-- (web gear, canteens, 10KW generator)." FEPP is a "cheap" way to go if a dept can "play the game" with the state and folks don't mind fixing things. However, the Midwestern firefighter warns: "Each state approaches FEPP differently so what works for me in the Midwest may not in other states." Here's the FEPP link: www.fs.fed.us/fire/planning/fepp/index.shtml It's also got a permanent home on our wlf.com links page under Federal, third from the bottom. All this Ab can say is that usually people don't realize how much vollies do with how little money. For many rural departments it takes a lot of pancake breakfasts to keep the fire forces up and running.
08/23	Hey Carol and everyone else, I just saw your post and was wondering if you could send me some more info. on this grant. Does anyone else out there have any info.? Thanks, Paul nichols@midrivers.com
08/24	Thanks for the support for remaining on the fireline. I called my university and they're letting me come back late. I'm sure I can catch up, the first three weeks of the semester are usually slow. I'm glad someone told me about this site. Thinking ahead, I might stay sane until next fire season if I check here in during school. Thanks to whoever does this. teacher's pet Hooked by fire Hooked, read "Ab Speaks" (link above) to find out how theysaid began and who "does" it. Glad you joined our community. Ab.
08/24	Firescribe: remind the NF interface VFD folk there is/was 'seed' money available from the USFS (maybe FEMA too) for equipment; the requirement is an 25% "in kind" match & can be other than cash. If it's gone this year, the new federal fiscal year begins 10/1. CA OES is keeper of a special fund (SAFE Account) to sell refurbished engines to VFDs at a greatly reduced rate. R5er
08/23	Yesterday President Bush signed into law the measure raising the mandatory retirement age for fed wildland firefighters from 55 to 57. This is good news for our fellow firefighters who have reached the 35 Year-Old mark and for those who don't want to be forced out at 55 years. Pass it on to all you know. For those of you in the 35-37 year gap, better contact those people you applied for and tell them to reconsider your application. If they say they won't, then let them know you'll be contacting a labor attorney regarding an age discrimination suit. MOC4546
08/23	I just read that Colorado State is also allowing students who are FFs to start late. We have been blessed with an early monsoon season down here which has kept us out of the fire business for several weeks. However, I know there are probably some CSU folks out there on the lines in the NW and we don't want you hurrying back to classes before they are done with you. Of course catching up on all the work will be fun! On another note, we were just notified that we also got one of those FEMA grants ($88,000!). This is almost twice the annual operating budget for our VFD. For our organization that is all volunteer and entirely donation based, this is a godsend. This grant will be used to buy new gear (both wildland and bunker gear) and new SCBA. For years our volunteer FFs had to provide most of their own wildland gear (except shirts, shelters and hats). We are also very excited to be ditching our hand-me-down bunker gear. We appreciated them when we got them because that was all we had, but it will be nice to have bunker gear that actually fits! Hang in there and stay safe! Adios, Carol, 20 year VFD FF
08/23	r3firetaz, There is no way to "leap ahead of the NWCG standards......." Read Wildland and Prescribed Fire Qualifications System Guide PMS-310-1 (NFES1414) page V ---indicates that current standards and the old 1993 standards both madated prerequisite experience as TFLD prior to DIVS qualification. If you have had access to the training records of the personnel you question, and know they have failed to meet the requirements, then you should definitely file a SAFENET on this. Remember, safety is everyones responsibility, and if you have knowledge of unqualified individuals filling jobs, you should redeem that responsibility by reporting it. Good luck, and thanks for staying alert to safety. Old Fire Guy
08/23	Would someone please explain the difference in a hot shot crew and a strike team crew? What are the qualifications and training for both? and what are the qualifications of the leaders of these crews? thx Sammi
08/23	The New York Academy website is www.dec.state.ny.us/website/reg1/acad.html or you can call my good friend Chuck Hamilton directly at 631/444-0270. Chuck is the Academy Coordinator and does an outstanding job. Ab about people that use all caps in their messages I have three words for you... <snip> < Ab chews it up> <Ab spits it out> ... GET OVER IT "Boo" Hmmmmmm... much better. As you can see, THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS. Ab has been known to kickback all caps messages to the sender for a rewrite - or just drop the post completely, depending on his mood and whether he's warned 'em before. No need to take any of this personally, just one of Ab's little aesthetic quirks.
08/23	Long Island NY Fire Academy: Their website is www.dec.state.ny.us/website/reg1/acad.html. As I understand it, classes are filling up fast, so... Hal
08/23	For the Vollies from Firescribe: www.ravallinews.com/display/inn_news/news4.txt

08/23	Hey Ab... Just got off of a 14 day fire tour as a dozer boss and task force leader. The tour led me through Nevada to California primarily doing hotline. I will have to say that I saw things that were refreshing and some things that were questionable. Guess the thing that is really bugging me right now is this. Several Type II teams that I worked for had op chiefs and division sups (in my opinion) with limited wildland experience. These folks seemed very well versed in structure protection and urban interface experience. It baffles me how we have system where a person can leap ahead of the NWCG standards and fill a position, ie. being a division sup or ops chief without having been a single resource boss, strike team leader, or task force leader and having hotline experience. For example, the Fish fire had 2 shelter deployments plus a dozer roll over in very steep terrain. There were no reason for these two unrelated actions to happen but it did. Both could have been avoided or mitigated with different strategies and tactics. Could this be a new "Watch Out" situation? On the other hand, my hats off to those teams from Idaho and Eastern Nevada. Its a relief and a pleasure working for teams with many years of wildland fire experience. One foot in the black and don't be affraid to fight fire with fire when dealing with sagebrush and cheatgrass fires. r3firetaz
08/23	For a large fire map try http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/ that is a page region 3 has and it has a link to a "large Fire" map that NICC puts out. Hope it helps. Dispatcher from R-3
08/23	I WAS WONDERING IF ANYBODY OUT THERE HAD ANY INFO ON THE LONG ISLAND NY FIRE ACADEMY. IF SO COULD YOU POST THE WEB SITE. THANKS. NEW ENGLAND WILDLAND FF. Just a note to remind people not to post in caps, which are interpreted by many as YELLING! We don't mind messages that are all lowercase and little punctuation... Ab.
08/23	Large Fire Map www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/firemap.html Jim I added that to the links page.... Ab.
08/23	Does anyone know of a good map site on the web that shows all the fires? Last summer there was one at the NIFC site. This summer there's a new Geomac site that you have on the links page, but most of the time the public can't get on it and it's so slow to load. I just want a quick peek, not some huge piece of technology. OR Firefighter
08/23	For your information, Ab has a comment on the familysaid board.
08/23	Just popping thru having a few days of R&R... and catching up a bit with theysaid and "family said it". What a GREAT addition! I'll have to try the chat later when I have more energy to learn how it works. Thanks Abs! A couple of things. Just like with fast track for aviation, we need to find ways to work with training the new folks up regarding fire behavior. We do need a state-of-the-art fireshelter. However, those on the ground should never be in a position where they need to use one. We need to put aside egos and look again at the Campbell Prediction Method for sizing up fire so fire can be avoided before the fire shelter deployment stage. IMO, Doug Campbell's logical approach to reading the fire's signature should be incorporated into training at a basic level. He's worked equally as hard with the same kind of dedication as Jim Roth has for firefighter safety. Parents and those of you who have never looked at his method, check it out. Another thing - New people should see some fire by being required to work on Rx burns connected with fuel reduction (as per dictates of the Congressionally mandated National Fire Plan). Experience with fire is key. Let's make looking at fire behavior logical and FAST TRACK fire behavior experience. For really new people, memorizing a long set of rules just doesn't help much. [One of my pet peeves: Get the extreme environmentalists and their legal blocks off our backs so we can reduce the fuels in the forests. As those reading here know, fuel reduction is not about cutting trees for profit then burning. This is about survival of our national resources so we can all enjoy them! Some of the folks who have recently been evacuated from their homes on the Sierra interface should get on the bandwagon on the fuel reduction issue. Fuels need to be reduced! Fire behavior experience can be gained in the process.] I do think acquisition of a state of the art fireshelter should be brought forward as a focus. We need to get on with it! BUT, let's not forget other aspects relating to fire behavior knowledge and experience that are equally important in avoiding trouble on the ground. TRAINING. NorCal Tom Doug's CPS link is under training and education on the links page. Ab.
08/23	Ab I tried to post this a week ago....What if we took a date out of the calendar to email Congress to insist and enlist a FAST TRACK to find a better shelter ?....The power of numbers in the form of loved ones at home who wish for zero fatalities on the Fire Ground could wake up Congress and the NFS to get the money needed to get this thing done before we loose one more Firefighter...What do you think ?.....Remember 18/10 LACES....Godspeed till you return... The Old Firedog
08/22	Re FAST TRACK: Thanks for the quick answers!! Hopefully it appears the FAST TRACK isn't another CONSENT DECREE = PISSED OFF EMPLOYEES! Hope it works! It appears the Forest Service needs all the help it can get to survive, and to keep ALL of its employees in tune to SAFETY FIRST!! and not DIVERSITY FIRST! Maybe the agency does have a chance still.... BG
08/22	Teachers pet: For those that are interested, i know that Boise State University has extended the start of the fall semester for Firefighters. Students who wish to extend must call the admin. office as soon as possible. One draw back is students will have to make up any missed assignments and class work, the bonus, we are still rollin. HUNTnFIRE
08/22	BG, I can understand your concern with the program. Being a member of one of the five fast track teams, I can assure you, all of the personnel involved have a wide variety of aviation experience. Some of us have not had the opportunity to get the required training to move on to the next step until now. On the couple of assignments I have gone on with my team, I can report that the training and supervision I have received has, hands down, been the best training I have received since being in the Forest Service. The question has come up a number of times about being signed off too fast; that is completely false. I personally will not be signed off on different positions until I feel comfortable being in that position. If it takes 6-7 assignments, then thats what it takes. I know for a fact that I am not the only person who feels that way in the fast track program. I read this page a lot and if there are anymore questions about the program I will be happy to reply anytime. Thanks, and everybody have a safe fire season. CY
08/22	Colleges and universities begin soon, some as early as this Monday. What happens to the firefighting forces when all us college kids have to leave? Last year Montana and Idaho let students go back to school late. Is there anything like that happening this year or do we have to skip fall semester if we want to remain on our crew? Teacher's Pet Hooked on Fire
08/22	My opinion (yea I know) is: a huge percentage of the changes, reforms whatever you call it has come about when a deep emotion was twicked and it started a rolling effect in other people. MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, did not start by someone saying "oh today I think I will start an organization against drunks" no, it started when a child was killed, BIG emotion there folks. Megan's Law, is about child killers......and the list goes on and on. I don't trust the powers that be in any field to make appropriate decisions for public safety based on percentages, dollars and the impact to the environment etc. Good grief look at Firestone......we have a bigger investment in the Shelter controversy than anyone other than our FF themselves. We have invested a lifetime of care, love, emotion, commitment to these people out there on the line. And all those investments can move mountains once it gets moving. Even if we just let the "powers" know we are watching them, it will make a difference. Yes we need to educate ourselves abt the shelters, but I don't have to know the ratio's, the fabric content, the percentages etc. I leave that to the experts. I want to know they are "activity" working on a better shelter and I want some type of accountability from the "powers". I would be willing to bet that everyone on this list would be willing to buy one of the new shelters themselves if they were available for their family member. Personally we would have to buy four but we would do it today if we could. (I'll sell the house). I do apologize if anything I've written in the past was taken as an attack. Not intended at all. Everyone has their own agenda and I understand job security and all that. I just want every FF out there to have the best equipment possible....and if it is sitting on a drawing board or a conference table, then someone needs to get involved and get it moving. Sammi
08/21	I just got caught up on what's been going on with They Said (great job Abs!!). Firefighter Jane is right on with her message on August 8. I don't support the personal attacks I've seen in other messages but I do understand the frustration of people that chose to vent that way. Old Fire Guy is right in part but I don't agree with him on one point. We do have to question those that shoulder the responsibility of national leadership, if the leaders don't lead. JW gave some good points too but someone needs a kick in the @$$ somewhere. I can't believe that no one has updated the old MTDC specs. With all of the technological advances we have seen over the last 10-20 years, we need leadership to bring us forward. As Jane said there has been no work on the material that makes up the fire shelter until Roth came around. 6-7 years later still no improved shelter other than Roth's. MTDC should be working with Roth but it doesn't look like they have. What's up with that? My 2 cents ---if you're not going to lead, get out of the way. Be safe out there! CA firefighter
08/21	Hey, BG, Here's the info on Fast Track from July: FAST TRACK, 07/01/01. In FAST TRACK, training is expedited both in class and on the job. Critical to the program is the small group approach to OJT on incidents. A Fast Track Training Coordinator (experienced aviation person) mentors 5 to 6 trainees who, as a group, are assigned to the incident. The mentor works with the aviation person and other team overhead on the incident to assure that necessary training is obtained to meet task book requirements. Individuals in the program have the benefit of individual feedback. Mellie
08/21	BG, Here you go. THE SITUATION . . . Continuing nationwide shortage of Air Operations Branch Directors, Air Support Group Supervisors, and Helibase/Helicopter Managers. This shortage will only worsen in the future due to retirements. Current system is unable to provide enough training opportunities and trainee assignments to fill this void. WHAT IS FAST TRACK? Designed to address the shortage situation, the Region 5 FAST TRACK Aviation Training and Qualification Program is an "accelerated development" program that provides training and experience in a condensed timeframe. As an example, four required courses that are presently only available or offered at the rate of one course per year are presented all in one year. Emphasis is then placed on obtaining immediate and ongoing on-the-job experience for the Fast Track participant. In a best-case scenario, a participant could move from their current level of expertise as a Helicopter Manager to full qualification as an Air Operations Branch Director (AOBD) in a 3-5 year timeframe. FAST TRACK MEETS ALL TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS . . . NWCG 310-1 and FSH 5109.17 standards will be met in full. Though training and experience is compressed into the shortest timeframe possible, Fast Track WILL NOT REDUCE OR DIMINISH the quality or quantity of training and experience required for an individual to become fully qualified in one of the targeted positions. HOW FAST TRACK WORKS . . . Candidates apply to the Fast Track Program. Upon acceptance, a personal training plan is developed for each participant based on their current level of aviation aptitudes and skills. Participants then attend an intensive 4-5 weeks of training. Upon successful completion of training, Fast Track Teams of 5-6 trainees are formed and placed on a rotation schedule for assignment to incidents. A Fast Track Training Coordinator (FTTC) accompanies the Fast Track team to an incident, acting as mentors to the trainees and liaison with Incident personnel (IC, AOBD, Training Specialist, etc.) and the Forest Aviation Officer. FTTC's closely coordinate with incident air staff and oversee the training and experience process of each Fast Track trainee. They ensure that training standards are met and that experience gained and qualifications achieved are properly documented in Position Task Books. THE RESULTS . . . Quality training and experience is provided each individual. The mentoring program allows for personal feedback to each participant on-incident as well as during the entire multi-year program. This approach potentially can produce better results sooner than the current training and qualification system provides. Andy the Aviator
08/21	I am a retired Engine Capt. (1997) Forest Service. Just wondering what this R-5 Aviation FAST TRACK thing is?? Sounds a little scary? BG
08/21	JW, Thanks for the insightful and level headed post!! We all have to remember there are always two sides of the story, unfortunately its hard for some people to look at things from both sides of the fence. ...Id rather be out there suckin smoke than sittin here watchin the grass grow..oh well, there is more than enough to go around, we will all get our turn. pulaski
08/21	I just read that Calif has 10 fire teams & to date we have been able to ID 5 of the type I teams. If any if uze out there work w/or know of the sites for the rest of the teams (type II?), please let us know. Thanks Danny
08/21	Greetings Ab, I wonder if we can find a friend of mine. Tate made a transitition from SE TEXAS to MN back in July. I had his new address before my computer meltdown. But I have lost all of that since. So I figure he still checks in here every now and then. Thanks and stay safe, Keith
08/21	From Firescribe, A good article by Judd Slivka of Idaho Statesman entitled Firefighters: Safety shelters are dangerous Forest Service is working on new tent designs: www.idahostatesman.com CDF has some info up on the CA fires that they're supervising: www.fire.ca.gov/cdf_incidents/index.htm
08/21	The Jobs page, Series 462 and Series 455 pages are updated. More jobs on the Mendocino NF and the Kansas Forest Service is accepting applications for a Fire Protection Specialist position. Ab.
08/21	Howdy Ab- Well the good ol Pac NW weather's going to kick in pretty soon, a band of weather bearing rain and snow is expected for the Cascades this Tuesday, so I hope it will help out the Icicle et all other complexes. Your pup will be headed off to college here in 48 hours, off to get myself an edumication.. and maybe learn how to spell along the lines (Thanks Kelly for putting up with my lack of Merriam-Webster and The Little, Brown Book skills.) Just a thought from the young one... supporting evidence goes a long way in debate... not meaning to criticize anyone in particular, but you're more likely to get me (and other humble firefighters) on your side of the boat if you can prove your point... you can get more people if you can do it tactfully... but, as I said, this is just a thought. Carry on all, Summer is almost at an end... or so I think. Tiny, the R-6 College-Bound Fire Pup
08/21	I would like to thank the Redding Air Attack Base personnel for the excellent training I received while on detail as an R5 Avaition FAST TRACK team member. I was given the hands on experience I needed to operate in the Tanker Industry. The operation is one of the largest in the country with much activity. As to date the base is approaching the 600,000 gallon mark. Many thanks to John, Jim, Rudy, the Bob's, all the pilots and mechanics, the firetrol crew, and the outstanding CDF firefighters who work the ramp. Frosty
08/21	Attached is an update on fire shelters. I'll echo an earlier comment that personal attacks are unprofessional. The folks in fire leadership today got there by earning it. They were putting their butts on the line (literally) while many of today's firefighters were filling their diapers. I don't question the safety commitment of our current firefighters, and they should not question that of those who shoulder the responsibility of national leadership in fire. I sincerely hope that the Roth shelter does prove to be better. 'nuff said. (See attached file: Fire Shelter Talking Points) Old Fire Guy Hi Old Fire Guy. Thanks for reminding us. I posted this with your message last week (08/13) and linked to it again above to remind folks that a process is underway. And, um, the image of filled diapers goes great with my coffee. Ab.
08/21	"in the Loop" me thinks your response was a little harsh in response to Sammi's comments. This not the forum for personal squabbles, but for sharing infomation. Never forget that all, whether on the line or sitting at home, want to best for all the FFrs. TO ALL: BE SAFE! old&grey in R5 Good Morning All. I'm cross-posting a few of these messages in familysaid as we work out the best flow of communication between this site and the new site. For more dialog check out what family members are saying. Thanks to those CIC (Comfort Incident Commanders) who know a lot who are supporting those who know less - about finding and following their folks on the fire information highway.
08/20	Just a few comments re: recent posts. First, my compliments to the Captain on SHF Engine 6-3. I worked with him on two fires in NW NV recently, the Macy and Buzz where he was the IC. Both were low priority fires under the shadow of the Blue fire. As low priority fires there were limited resources assigned. From the air I was able to provide information and suggestions as to strategy. At one point on the Buzz we were discussing various attack strategies. Captain 6-3 established a cutoff level on the complexity of the attack based on his experience level and personal judgement as to how much activity with which he felt comfortable. The fire got bigger, resources worked safely, and most importantly Captain 6-3 established control levels that allowed him to successfuly command the incident. In "normal" times an ADFMO or DFMO would have eventually arrived to be the IC. Again, my compliments. Safety- N. Calif. fuels have reached critical live fuel moisture levels. Short range spotting is occuring at moderate ignition and spotting index levels. Winds as low 10-12 mph will produce major runs in most fuel types, even on level terrain. Retardant will not stop fires as it did earlier in the year. Watch the smoke column, if it tilts in the wind or is flattened by low level gradient winds, don't get caught out under it. You may be between the head and down range spots. If you are downrange, as happens when chasing spot fires in the interface, and the column goes vertical it is defeating the gradient wind and will suck the spots back into the main fire at a terrific speed. The summer doldrums are ending, expect more "normal" wind activity for the rest of the season. Be careful of the period between frontal changes, spread vectors change to slope and diurnal air movement driven ones from the lack of wind during the slack period. Don't be lulled into ignoring the micro climate and topography. If your attack strategy is dependent on having enough time to finish before the area becomes untenable, you probably will not have enough time. Fire Shelters- Let's get past the personal attacks and look towards how to make the system work better. I hate to say it but change in bureaucracy is incremental. The USFS has worked in the "design specification" mode forever and in some areas is now moving to "performance specification". NFPA standards are not law; they are guidelines based on input from a cross section of industry, research institutions, third-party testing labs, management, labor, and regulatory agencies. Adopting or using the standards is up to the particular agency. More and more the standards are being looked at by the courts as the model to be held against and by regulatory agencies as the best practice to follow. The NFPA 1977 standard for wildland fire fighting safety equipment uses the "old" MTDC specification because it was the existing technology level when written. The review cycle of the standard is three years. There can be interim changes based on new technology, new information, or poor user experience to name a few. The new MTDC specification, if performance based, could be offered as an interim improvement with full consideration in the next review cycle. Both Mr. Roth and MTDC could both be at the same table and work towards a common ground. Is it a perfect system? No. But as a consensus based system, it tends to draw the polarized positions closer together. Absent any other guideline or specification to follow, the MTDC design specification is the only one recognised by the federal agencies. Should any technical development center be focused on product design rather than performance specification? Probably not. This is where change is most needed. If MTDC can produce the performance goals, then the manufacturers should be able to market products that meet the specifications as proven by third-party testing. Your employer will then tell you which product they will buy for you to use based on cost, applicability, and, unfortunately, liability exposure. I respect the call to action seen on this site. I suggest that individuals work together to improve the system and the product. The Wildland Fire Service Association is a good way to pass your concerns to management, which is not entrenched at this time, and legislators who have the ability to question with the budget as a threat. I also disrespect character attacks. They're not needed to make the point. In defense of the individual attacked, I know that he has been to every fatal/severe injury fire entrapment site during his MTDC assignment as part of the investigation team. I know he cares about fire fighter safety. It may not be expressed the way the defamer would like to see it expressed. Put yourself in the other's shoes and figure out how you would be able to work within the system for change, and how much, and how fast, you may be able to create a change from outside. It's personal choice, I wish you well on your attempt. The old CDF fire fighter picture- The age of the picture is in the 1975 to 1980 era +/- a couple of years. The pants are nomex made by Workrite, in a boot-jean style. The thighs were cut so tight that many "studs" couldn't even get the right waist size past their knees. Fitting so tight, they passed the radiant heat to your skin. By 1980-81 we went to poly-cotton or cotton Big Ben's or other green jean under the yellow overpant. The radio is a five channel Dumont crystal controlled unit, direct only, no repeater capability. Helitack crews got the first programmable Kings in the '78+ timespan. The web gear is WWII-Korean War cotton battle harness. As to the shirt sleeves rolled up and no gloves, common for the era. No gloves made your hands tough! Patch is sewn on, not silk-screened. Early nomex had the "Cal Div Fire" bowling team patch sewn on. After the name change the shirts came plain and individuals put on their own shoulder patches. JW
08/20	Talk about making an example of someone, COMT Black Hills NF – On 7/23, Jan Stevenson of Newcastle, WY was sentenced for starting the Jasper Fire. She was sentenced to serve 10 years in federal prison with 3 years supervised probation upon release and to pay restitution of $42 million. She must request permission from her parole officer to travel through Federal or State forest lands. Additionally, the State of South Dakota has arson charges pending against her, which carry up to a 25-year prison term. The 10 years in federal prison was an upward departure from the sentencing guidelines for 18 U.S.C. 1361, Depredation of Government Property. The court accepted the following as reasons for the departure: the high value of property damaged when 7% of the Forest burned, and the disruption of governmental function when all levels of government became involved in the suppression effort. Region 2 LEI would like to thank SA's Paul Steensland, Robin Poague, Bob Darling, and Ron Pugh who came from other regions to provide assistance on this case.
08/20	Sonoma County: Ripped off 95 acres of under brush and trees along the Russian River yesterday. Pretty radical fire behavior for being along the river. You had to watch out for all the rats that got burned out of house and home. Looks as if it was started by an unattended camp fire. Sonoma County sent at least one strike team down south, San Andreas, I think. CDF hired out one of our rigs and 1 engineer and 2 firefighters to augment staffing. Man it looks like it's starting to get stretched on the equipment side of things already. Yesterday we had to get an air tanker form Redding for a fire in Sonoma County. Sending some pics from our zone training in July. Mobile attack kind of stuff. Keep safe and keep watching the weather, don't get burned and drink lots of liquids. L.A.V.E. I posted the photos on Crews3 page. I also posted a hotshot crew photo from the Lakeview Complex there and others on the AirTankers3, Helicopter4, and Equipment2 pages. Ab.
08/20	Cross-posted from familysaid: "In the Loop"........ Please explain..... "Whiners???????? Don't know what they are talking abt?" Who? Are you yelling at those of us who are supporting the Roth shelters, or yelling at the people who are being quiet on the subject? Or are you just yelling? What is your interest in this subject? Are you personally involved on one side or the other or possibly a journalist looking for a different scoop on the fires? If personally involved, I pray that yourself or the people in your life never have to deploy.....I have received one of those calls at 3am with the voice on the other end of the line saying Mrs_______ this is Chief________ and I said "Is he alive?" I have no problem telling anyone which side of this issue I am on, how abt you? hope you have a better day..... Sammi
08/20	> > To all the whiners carrying on about the Roth shelters, (1) you don't know > half the details you're whining about because you haven't bothered to find > out, and (2) keep your eye out for a good media story on this coming up soon. > > In The Loop
08/20	We have large quantities of nomex clothing, coveralls, and gloves made for the US Air Force for immediate shipment. Do you know who to contact in Washington state or Oregon who are despately looking for these? Abe Schwarzman Schwarzman Export-Import Co New York Aschwa4848@aol.com
08/20	Ponderosa Fire, Saturday nite, (nite crew) onto Sunday morning. Fact. 6 dozers, meet at the ridge, 3 to the bottom, 3 to the top. Fact. Dozer boss will be there any time with assignments. Fact ? Dozer boss went home or somewhere, did not show. Fact. No dozer work done that nite, 3 on top ridge, 3 on bottom, sat all nite and could not do any work. FACT. Parts of this fire are a real circus. Fact. Sign me... Heard the above.
08/20	One who knows---I have to agree with Vinnie: right on. Check the fire dangers posted on the GACC sites, or read your handy (or not so handy) mob guide for two words: draw-down. We can't send out so many resources that we can't do initial attack. It definitely sucks to sit at home while there are fires, but think big picture, think about a country with enough fire that we're at preparedness level 5. If we don't IA fires, they get big and we're in worse shape. Sometimes those engines and crews sitting at home can save the rest of the country from even more crises (of course, it still sucks). Re Fireshelters/Fireshelter Testing---Firefighter Jane and Firefighter Families: Do it. I just wouldn't want to be the one to deal with the FOIA request! But, it would get the information we all need out there.... Please be safe out there. Fire danger levels are at extremes or near extremes in a bunch of places. ----trying to see the big picture
08/19	TO ALL, As I sit here in my station house, reading the They Said page and looking at the Sit-Rep Report on NIFC, I just heard notices for local government Fire Departments (here in California) to start calling up firefighters who want to go on OES (CA's Office of Emergency Services) Strike Team assignments. As I write this, it was advised over many fire radios that the locations would be at Yosemite National Park (which has a 1000+ acre fire southeast of Yosemite Village) and the Ponderosa Fire (formerly Wemar Fire in CDF NYP Ranger Unit) for a four to five day assignment. Here it comes for California, guys! Everyone start checking the bags and going over the engines one more time. In particular to our volunteer firefighters who fight the same wildland fires, because although you may not be called immediately you may be first in. To those crews covering the different fire stations, don't make the same mistake CDF made last year by not listening to the locals and the local volunteers as to weather and fire behavior factors. Those people live there, and know what the wind does. Amen to the Forest Service Chief! IF he did send a letter out to all Forests telling them to send al