|
"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
SEPTEMBER 2001
| DATE |
|
| 09/30 |
Hey guys, I got a few questions that I have had a hard time trying to
find through the regular sources. I am in college now and my summer break
runs from (roughly) May 20 through August 20, is that long enough for me
to be a federal seasonal wildland firefighter? Or is that time length not
long enough, if so, will that deny me a position all together or can I
leave early for school if necessary? Also, is the Form C enough to get
hired on a fire crew or engine crew? Is there a better way then a Form C?
Thanks a lot guys!
Douglas |
| 09/30 |
I just finished going through the August and September archives and had
a few things to add.
Hot shields, I've heard good and bad about them. I have talked a
few people to who had used them and they all seemed to like them and said
they worked pretty good. They do however restrict your breathing reducing
your effectiveness so it doesn't sound like you would wear one all the
time. They also are supposed to provide very good thermal protection if
you get burned over. The bad side is that apparently they basically just
block soot particles and a few gasses, not CO or some of the other nasty
products of combustion, according to an article I read sometime ago in a
wildfire type magazine, carbon particles (soot) is one of the things that
triggers your bodies defenses, by blocking the soot your body sort of
thinks everythings great, you then begin breathing in CO, CO2 and other
gasses and this speeds up your respiration, increasing your intake of
these gasses. The result according to the article which claimed to have
taken blood samples was that people wearing hotshield type products
actually had higher levels of CO in their blood stream than those who
didn't, since CO is one of the big things you want to reduce I'd say thats
bad.
Boots, I've used Red Wings and never had a problem with them,
but when it came time for new boots I went ahead and spent the extra $120
or so and got Whites (at the time Redwings were around $180 and Whites
were $299) , much better and worth every penny, I went out with a hand
crew within a week of receiving mine and only got one small blister. I
have worked engines and gone out occasionally with hand crews and mine
have lasted 3 busy years (full years wear not just summers) and are just
now reaching time for a rebuild. I have heard good things about Nicks and
even Wesco has its supporters, depends how much you're going to be in
them, what you are willing to spend and your particular foot. If you had
the chance I'd suggest trying on a few brands first but you shouldn't go
wrong with any of the brands you mentioned.
Fire Shelters, sure I guess some people would take additional
risks if they had a better fire shelter but those people probably do that
now anyway. How often have you asked about safety zones and had the
response, Well there are some good deployment zones in there (hopefully
your response was something like sorry but I'll be waiting right here
until there are some). Comparing it with structure gear is a little too
much apples and oranges to me, the better structure gear allows the
firefighters to enter deeper into structures because they can take much
more heat before getting too hot to enter further. Shelters wouldn't do
that because the current PPE still only lets you take so much heat. I for
one am all in favor of better shelters even though I don't ever plan on
using one for real. I had the opportunity to get intentionally burned over
in a controlled live fire excercise and that was enough for me.
Speaking of PPE, about a year ago an Austrailian study came out
about the pro's and cons of single layer nomex vs double layers, their
conclusion being that the threat of heat exhaustion far out weighed the
benefits of improved thermal protection. Then if you look at the Fatality
Report available on the USFS fire and aviation site, comparing CDF
fatalities (double layers) to USFS fatalities (single layer), CDF had
several heat related deaths compared to 0 USFS. If I can find the report
(it was on the internet), I'll post the address. I was on the Poe fire
(CDF team) earlier this year and during the breifing the high number of
heat related illnesses was mentioned and people were told to open up
nomex, remove hard hats etc when taking breaks on the line to allow their
bodies to cool. I hadn't heard this before from CDF and no one on our
strike team felt that it was really all that hot (all were feds with a
single layer). Is there any discussion about rethinking the double layers?
What ever your viewpoint on this topic, the article was very interesting.
I won't even wade into the USFS vs CDF vs the Universe except to
say the Forest Service is under mandate to sell all of its old fire
equipment to the States at a cost of $1. That sounds like a pretty good
deal to me, I believe CDF has a similar program. I was just on the Hyampom
(sp?) fire and saw a strike team of local government engines from
someplace around Willows, CA it was completely made up of USFS Model 51's
and old CDF rigs (Model 1's I believe but not so sure of my CDF engine
ID's) these were 1960 to early 80's vintage. Talking to the crews I found
out they were from a volunteer department and they had several more at
home including a Model 42, a 60 and Model 50? (USFS from the 1950's). It
really was neat to see these older engines sort of a traveling wildland
fire muster. According to the crews there is plenty of redtape and
politics to wade through but they said it wasn't too hard to get equipment
once they learned the system. I have seen many ex green rigs in Nevada and
Arizona as well.
USFS FEO |
| 09/30 |
Ab and all
The pins have been sold out. However should someone want to get on a
waiting list they can e-mail me ihogman@yahoo.com, there may be some
cancellations.
Jim |
| 09/30 |
I agree with Flingwing's comment on the Thirtymile investigation. I too
have heard through the grapevine that some of the report was
"edited" or altered -- much to the dismay of investigators who
were trying to do the right thing. Don't know any details -- but there is
something afoot. It's time that managers or whoever tries to perform cover
ups, stop the you know what -- as it is becoming increasingly painful to
believe any of the reports that come out of our agencies. Over 20 years
ago, I had a brother-in-law who was killed on a fire, and the same song
and dance was performed, at the expense of his reputation and to the
torture of his family -- seems nothing has changed -- have we learned
NOTHING in 20 YEARS?
Cache Queen |
| 09/30 |
In response to Fireronin's comments on fatigue. As overhead on a fire I
have never had a problem with a crew suffering from fatigue mentioning
that they were too tired to safely perform. As a matter of fact I
encourage them to let me know their condition when then arrive.
The problem I see more often than not is a group of greedy devils
showing up on a fire with no intention of revealing their true condition.
When was the last time that you ever heard a fire crew comparing how many
times they turned down an assignment due to fatigue at the end of the
year? Instead we hear about the hours of overtime -like a badge of courage
or something.
Like making money at any cost - become a lawyer.
Want to promote the safe execution of fire suppression tactics- do it
right, provide for safety first.
Mr. Unhoseable |
| 09/30 |
Ab,
Could you please put me in touch with Flingwing. I would like to know the
forest where this happened, look at the documentation of the
investigations and see whether recording such information has improved.
T.T.
Flingwing, will you write in again if you're interested in sharing
info? Ab. |
| 09/29 |
Fireronin,
re: malfunction with dispatch tapes. On our forest, over the last seven
years, there have been several incidents requiring investigation ( seems
it's becoming routine here)....when dispatch tapes were requested to
validate what actually occurred, there had been a "malfunction"!
In each case the malfunction occured when mismanagement and incompetence
of FMO's and line officers were at issue. Sadly, it doesn't end
there....reports and documents have been altered after the fact! Hmmm!
Flingwing |
| 09/29 |
The Jobs page, Series
462 and Series 455
are updated.
Ab. |
| 09/29 |
So far there are 465 WTC Memorial pins reserved and only 35 left.
They'll be here in 4-5 weeks.
Jim |
| 09/29 |
I just found this site, but I already have some comments (I've also been
told I have a big mouth).
As far as refusing an assignment due to fatigue, I've done it without
repercussion, its a matter of knowing the regs, if your driver hasn't had
the required sleep or you're over your work/rest ratio thats the end of
the argument. People need to not be afraid of getting sent home, if you're
right and you've documented the incident you will win eventually. Thats
what the union and grievence processes are for. I'd rather get sent home
than have my crew get hurt or killed. I do believe however that management
needs to take a hard look at itself, I have seen many teams spout safety,
safety, safety during briefing and then watch them on the line ignoring
warnings or threatening crews for bringing up safety issues or turning
down an assignment.
As to the "all risk" issue, I am a Region 5'r and agree with
Socalcaptain, there is alot of foot dragging going on related to
nontraditional forest service responses particularly if you leave Region
5, which I did for a couple of years. But I also understand old guys point
and why many in the other Regions dislike Region 5, having seen first hand
some of the issues (budget, attitude, equipment). Not all can be blamed on
Region 5 however. Some comes from the managers in these other Regions,
many of whom are entranced by the shiny model 62's. I've been on incidents
in several states where the Type 6 engines were completely ignored even
though in many cases they were the better resource for the particular job.
I doubt anyone believes any region gets better training than Region 5
(unless you're a seasonal in which case you are better off anywhere else).
But the training and equipment required to properly do our job is not
being agressively pursued, better structural training is required, EMT's
and associated equipment should be standard on engines, hazmat should get
more attention, the Suburban Emergency Response class is a good first step
but more is needed. The Region and the WO need to be more involved in
making policy on these non traditional responses. "Its not our
mission", "we don't enter structures", "we don't do
medical aids" doesn't cut it anymore because, like it or not, we do
all of these and more. In most locations Forest Service engines are at
best second in resources for local fire departments and are usually the
first in unit. I know in several locations Forest Service engines are
providing the back up team on structure fires for local fire departments.
Most of these issues are still being controlled at the local level, not
the RO because of this few forests have the same brand SCBA, PPE varies by
forest and those individuals with the best training in non traditional
responses usually got that training on their own from outside the agency.
I have heard a few FS employees describe those who are in favor of
improving our abilities in this area as being wannabe structure guys who
couldn't cut it at CDF, so the attitude socal was talking about definitely
exists.
As for the 0081 firefighter series, I think that was was a cheap shot
about DoD, I worked DoD at one time and their Captains are GS7's but they
also don't have the responsibilities of our Captains, they don't do
anything close to the admin work ours do, little personnel, no purchasing
authority etc, not a bad tradeoff for a pay grade. Maybe to you 0081 is
just a job title but Firefighter gets more attention from congress and
potential new employees than Forestry Tech and it is more descriptive of
our responsibilities. It's also easier to get some of our issues dealt
with when we are only dealing with the group that does our particular job
and not recreation, biology, timber, clerks etc.
Serious problems need to be addressed, a temporary work force is no
longer appropriate, all our firefighters need to be at least 13/13's. We
need to stop abusing people, working them for years without benefits and
then telling them they're to old for a permanent job. We need to address
salaries, portal to portal pay, proper training etc. Until serious offers
are at least being pursued we will continue to lose our best employees to
local and state fire departments with the subsequent reduction of the
quality and safety of our workforce.
I like my job very much. I have no desire to leave the agency but
without some movement on some of these issues my time here is limited and
I know I'm not alone in these feelings. I often have the misfortune of
helping a temporary employee apply for a job with us while also advising
and hoping for their sake they get a job from another agency.
USFS FEO |
| 09/28 |
Concerning the investigation,
I can tell you that some of the firefighters involved in the entrapment
saw things differently than what actually happened. I personally know some
of the survivors and they NEVER heard an order to deploy. They were told
they would not need to deploy. The only thing the crew boss told them was
to just put their shelters over their shoulders to protect them from
embers, and this was just before the wave hit them. He never mentioned a
word about deploying shelters and did nothing to clear surrounding area. I
also was told that he never ordered Tom Craven or the others to come down
off the hill and personally knowing Tom, I am POSITIVE he would not have
disobeyed an order from his supervisor. I think it's ridiculous and seems
to me some of the people responsible for this tragedy are covering their
a#%!#! Other parts of the investigation are correct, but I hope the
particular crew boss involved NEVER commands a fire crew again.
Todays Yakima-Herald Republic has a article about a few other survivors
who dispute the findings also.
www.yakima-herald.com/cgi-bin/liveique.acgi$rec=40430?home
Sign me-BISON |
| 09/28 |
I have read the 30 mile report. I would be very interested in other
firefighters views on it. Heres mine.
Everyone from the managers to the crews were physically and mentally
fatigued well beyond what would be considered a "safe" level due
to lack of sleep. The inexperienced firefighters always depend on the
"old hands" to watch out and set the safety level in the field.
In this case it appears that everyone was essentially on their own after
entrapment due to the low ratio (1/3?)of experienced to inexperienced
firefighters and severe fatigue.
All of the "10 and 18" are useless if no one is mentally
alert enough to implement them. If "safety is job 1" why is
extreme fatigue so accepted and endemic in our profession by those in
charge of safety? We all accept it as a part of the job...but those in
charge leave us no other option. Do they? Can you imagine a firefighter
saying to an IC "Our crew didn't sleep well last night so we can't go
fight the fire?" The whole crew would be sent home and either
unofficially or officially blackballed and disgraced. At the very least
the individual would have ended their own fire career. As long as
"I'm too tired" is considered whining rather than a major safety
consideration the "safety is job 1" is for public relations and
litigation limitation purposes only. And firefighters will continue to die
because they are not thinking clearly due to fatigue.
Is this acceptable or can we do something about it? Fireline fatigue is
accepted by everyone from the line grunt to the WO. Comments? Suggestions?
Did I read it wrong or are the dispatch tapes unavailable for the
investigation due to a malfunction? Ever since "Tricky Dick"
Nixons' tapes were "accidentally erased" this type of
"evidence unavailable" has appeared so "fishy" I would
expect an outside investigator to dig deeper. But there are no
investigators from outside the agency involved in these reports... which
looks even worse. It just looks SO BAD even if its' completely innocent
and is yet another major reason that independent investigators should be
used in fire fatality investigations.
It appeared to me from the report that after entrapment the ill fated
crews' lookout function was turned over to air attack. Did air attack ever
communicate with them that they could not fulfill that function due to
lack of visibility? I see no mention of it in the report. If the crew
thought that they had a lookout when in fact they did not their cavalier
attitude shortly prior to deployment and the fact that they appeared to be
taken by surprise makes much more sense to me.
I hate to say it because I do think that the investigators were doing
their best within the limitations imposed upon them. But I also think that
the report as it stands stops short of being complete and therefor is not
as useful as it could be in preventing future tragedy. Does anyone else
have questions that you wished were answered by the report but were not?
Fireronin
What were the "limitations imposed upon them"? Did I miss
something? Ab. |
| 09/28 |
Training:
Here in the Northwest, The Job corp has forestry & firefighting
o.j.t (on the job training) Not only type2, but One type1 crew - WolfCreek
Hotshots. It's a Year-round program which pay's Ya to not only get the job
training but also schooling.
the Coyote. |
| 09/28 |
AC, Sammi and Ab,
Thank you for giving me all this information. It has helped alot.
Debbie |
| 09/28 |
Pin Update:
I have commitments for 316 pins so far in three days. I expect the last
184 to go fairly quickly. See earlier posts for details and image.
Jim |
| 09/28 |
Debbie,
Minnesota has a summer program called the Minnesota Conservation Corps.
this is a summer program for youth and young adults that involves outdoor
service and firefighting. they live on site in the areas that they work
at. this is run by the Minnesota DNR forestry, i don't know if other
states have programs like this. the web site is www.dnr.state.mn.us/forestry/mcc/index.html.
i hope this helps you out-good luck
AC
Good idea. The links to all the other state departments of natural
resources and forestry are on the links page under state.
You could browse them for similar programs. Ab. |
| 09/28 |
Chache Queen and All,
Sorry for the misquote on price......how's 50.00 for the S-290 CD
Doug |
| 09/27 |
Hey Ab,
Is there a problem with the site?
Mellie
Nooooooooooo, you're the first to write in today. Everyone is
studyin'up.
Ab. |
| 09/26 |
Hi All,
Normally we meet under wildland fire conditions, but this time I was a
member of NJ-TF1 Urban Search and Rescue Task Force from New Jersey. We
were the first USAR Team in NY on Sept 11. We arrived 4 hours after the
incident began. During our 10 day stay we noticed the interagency teams
(with USFS, BLM etc) start moving in. They treaded lightly and began
helping, not to fight fire or dig in the rubble, but to organize the vast
supplies and resources coming into the area.
Presently the teams and other state and federal agencies are assisting
in efforts of deliveries and relief. It is nice to have someone to fall
back on so that the FEMA USAR Teams and FDNY rescue workers can continue
the job that they started.
Thank You for your support.
Ecsmky |
| 09/26 |
Debbie,
The fire school our g'son went to is Bates Technical College in Tacoma,
Wash. They have a 3 mo program for high school seniors (he earned $450.00
and had a blast.) and then a two yr program for people wanting careers in
the Fire Service. Apparently it is a very successful program and has a
high placement rate. I recommend also starting out as a volunteer in a
dept locally and getting a part time job to support themselves. We called
that "cheap college" and have two kids that went on to full time
careers....one does wildland in season and structure in winter and the
other is full time structure. If you want to e-mail me that is fine...
Sammi |
| 09/26 |
Memorial Pin Update
I would like to thank everyone that has e-mailed me with an order or
reservation. So far I have orders for 270 pins out of 500. I forgot to add
that I would like to limit the pins to 25 maximum per person, but that
does not preclude someone from making a group order, just make sure I know
it's a group order.
Pins are $5.50 each which includes shipping. The pin is shaped like the
picture and is 1-1/4" high with an epoxy dome coating. E-mail your
reservations to ihogman@yahoo.com Also don't forget to put a return
address on your order and allow 4-5 weeks for delivery.
Make checks payable to: Jim Evans
and mail them to:
Jim Evans
205 Starfield Pl
Hot Springs, AR 71913 |
| 09/26 |
Hi there --
Just wanted to clarify a post on 9/16 from Doug regarding the S-290 CD
ROM. He says he believes the "feds" charge $150 for the
product.......actually the price from NWCG is also $75 -- same as he is
offering. Pick your poison.
Cache Queen |
| 09/26 |
The Thirtymile Fire Investigation Reports were released today. Links
to the pdf downloads on the FS FAM News site here.
www.fs.fed.us/fire/news.shtml.
Some observations and suggestions:
- Be aware that if you click on "Investigation Factual
Report" you'll be downloading a 12 MB pdf file.
It's 106 pages and took me 20-25 min with a 56K modem this morning
right after the news came out. Download probably would be faster very
early in the morning when traffic is low.
- Please note that there is no "Additional Information"
available there. Clicking on the link they provide produces an error
message.
An e-mail from RD indicates that the complete set of documents is
available at the new site here: www.fs.fed.us/fire/fire_new.
She says the site is in transition.
Thanks for the info, RD.
Ab. |
| 09/26 |
From Firescribe for comparison:
Here's the long and many-part online article of the ThirtyMile Incident
done by the Yakima Herald:
www.yakima-herald.com/newsfeatures/thirtymile/main.html
The results of the investigation commissioned by the newspaper.
www.yakima-herald.com/newsfeatures/thirtymile/investigation.html
Here's the location
map and 30-mi
fire photos - including aerial shots of the valley and other photos
that show topography, vegetation, blackened trees along the fire's flank,
trees flattened from a microburst and the rubble at the memorial site.
Please read the description for the photo credits. Thanks to PNW Team 3. |
| 09/26 |
Pulaski, you were right the first time. Some folks are an "all
threat" resource. I usually try to stay away from them. Ya'll be
safe, whatever your job.
SB |
| 09/26 |
Old guy,
I have read SocalCapt's message also. I think that you are missing the
point of what most of the Capts. are trying to do in R-5.
We are tired of losing reliable and seasoned employee's to the County
and City departments that pay better and have their employees on FULL
TIME. I think what the Captains and some higher managment are trying to do
is get us better pay and more people on PFT. It is true we do alot more
then fight forest fires anymore. The actions taken in this Region will
benefit all who work for the agency, so instead of all of us ripping each
other apart on this page we should be discussing on how EVERYONE can do
their part in saving this agency.
So that is my observation on the subject.
Also an R-5er |
| 09/26 |
I do have a question. My son is 18 graduated last June. He is very
interested in becoming involved in firefighting. I have heard that there
is a place, like a firefightning camp of some sort where you can go and
get on the job training and get paid for it. I think its about 3 months or
something like that.. you stay there the whole time.. I don't know where
to look for that kind of on the job training program.
Have you any idea how to get into that kind of program?
Please let me know. Thank you very much.
Debbie
You may just be hearing about the OJT (on the job training) that
goes on after being hired on a crew for the summer. This Ab doesn't know
of any firefighting camps except for young women (Camp Blaze). Anyone out
there know anything or have any recommendations? We sometimes get
questions such as this that we respond to individually, just want to make
sure we have complete up-to-date info. |
| 09/26 |
I have read with intrest the posts about all risk and the use of Type I
National Teams in support of FEMA activities. BC Davis, SoCalCapt and
NorCalTom have all hit the major points.
The key to the whole thing, as was pointed out, is the fact that in the
Federal Response Plan the USDA Forest Service is tasked with either the
lead or support roles in several functions to deal with national
disasters. FEMA discovered that Type I National Teams bring not only the
ability to set up and be functional very quickly (they bring most of their
start up gear with them); but they also have excellent planning,
organization, intelligence gathering and execution skills which are
greatly needed in these types of operations. They are also a TEAM that
does what is necessary to pull it together and make things work. If that
means the Ops Chief or the IC mops the floor, or gets behind the chow
serving table and dishes meals, it is because that is what needs to
happen. Their needed skills are not being firefighters, but managers and
organizers. Their job is to bring organization to chaos, not to crawl in
buildings, throw dirt, excavate trenches or extricate trapped persons.
Those jobs belong to the technical experts in each area.
The Forest Service at the national level and all federal wildland fire
agencies are very proud of the accomplishments of these teams and the
skills they bring to bear when the chips are down. There will be more use
of National Teams to accomplish the mission of the Federal Government as
well as those of the Natural Resource Management Agencies. I know for I
was there for many years as an Ops Chief and Type I IC.
An old IC
ps mellie the flaps are up! |
| 09/26 |
To SoCalCapt.
Why don't you put away the ego, guy. You're the type person that causes
a lot of the rest the forest service to dislike R-5ers. Perhaps you should
walk a few hundred miles in management's boots to understand the real big
picture.
I tended to think like you do back in the days when I was a
"foreman" or STTO and CDF&FP was California Division of
Forestry! Things and views changed when I became management and actually
worked in other regions for a longer time than simply going there for
fires. I soon realized that R-5ers are not loved by all and learned to
shut my mouth and learn from the ways of others.
If you want to be in the 081 series, go to work for the Defense
Department and, oh by the way, as a "Captain" your pay rate will
become a GS-6 or maybe if you're lucky, a 7. Right now in R5 you have a
much better deal than your peers in other regions who are stil 5s, 6s, and
7s and some of them are still less than PFT. R-5 does have the best
training, equipment and damn long fire seasons to go with it. If you're so
hung up on a job title, you are the one who is stuck in the 20th century!
I don't see you jumping out to demonstrate your leadership and becoming
part of management to HELP SOLVE the problems and LEAD folks into the 21st
century.
Things have changed dramatically in the last decade in the way the FS
trains, hires, pays and does business. Think about it, in the last 10
years EMS, Haz Mat, Turnouts, SCBAs, two stage pumps, 2 1/2 hose capable
engines. Some engines even have extracation gear and spend a large part of
their time on interstate freeways in national forests protecting the
natural resources not only from fire but toxic spills and fuels.
And no, I am not one that is ready to retire but standing up to help
lead the FS into the 21st century in spite of the egos of some hardline
captains.
An old guy who's still hanging |
| 09/26 |
Here is the address for the Bateman team site that is in New York City. www.fireteam-sw.com.
Look under the current assignment link for the most recent information.
ST
It looks like both R3 teams are transitioning websites. We put up
both links on the IIMT
page along with the new ones. Will someone let us know when the
transition is finally done so we can update? Ab. |
| 09/25 |
Ab,
Here is the update on the pins. The cost will be $5.50 which will cover
pin and shipping. The pin will be shaped like the image (not rectangular),
have what they call an "epoxy dome" and will be 1-1/4"
high.. To all who have emailed me already, I will reply now with this
information and you will not need to e-mail me again. If you have not
emailed me and want one or more pins, please do so to reserve your order. ihogman@yahoo.com
The pins will take 4-5 weeks to be made.
Make checks payable to: Jim Evans
and mail them to:
Jim Evans (Pins)
205 Starfield Pl
Hot Springs, AR 71913
After all of the pins are sold I will post the amount that was donated
and the cost of the pins so everyone knows I didn't skip out with the
money.
Jim |
| 09/25 |
The Jobs page, Series
462 and 455
have been updated.
Ab. |
| 09/25 |
Ab, here's a link.
The 30-mi investigation officially comes out tomorrow. This online news
article has a bit of info. www.signonsandiego.com
Tahoe Terrie |
| 09/25 |
All risk
I believe what was ment is that the national incident management teams
are all risk. In that they could be called in to manage any type of major
incident (fire, flood, tornado etc) and not meant that the base line fire
suppression folks are an "all threat" resource.
Pulaski |
| 09/25 |
Yesterday in Northern California we had a significant lighting event. I
personally saw a dozen to eighteen strikes. The lighting map was pretty
impressive since we are about 25 miles inland of the ocean. I haven't seen
this much lighting in Sonoma County since I moved here 20 years ago. CDF
was chasing smokes all over. We did have about 0.2" of rain but stuff
is still real dry. Today could get interesting.
My department and our little town has raised about $5,500 for the FF's
in New York City. Our Chaplin is going back to his seminary in New York
city on Friday, so we will have the good Farther hand deliver our small
contribution as well as our condolences.
Still dangerous out there, take care.
L.A.V.E. |
| 09/24 |
Howdy AB's and all.
This is a little off topic but it impacts us so much in the Nor Cal
region I felt it was important enough to post.
On Sat. night 9/22/01 Enloe Flight Care of Chico, CA. crashed while
attempting a landing near a vehicle accident at Butte Meadows, Butte
County , CA. Veteran Pilot Ron (RJ) Jones was killed. Both Flight Nurses
were injured , Flight Nurse Mike Ferris is expected to be released today
and Flight Nurse Stacie Reed is in ICU with multiple fractures. She is
listed in serious condition. As a 20 yr veteran of EMS in Glenn County I
have had the pleasure of working with RJ on numerous incidents and his
skills as a pilot, his Big smile and warm greetings will be missed but
never forgotten. Funeral arrangements are pending.
My thoughts and prayers go out for the families and crew. This is quite
a blow to the EMS family of Butte, Glenn, Tehema, Colusa, and Plumas
Counties. May your prayers be with us all during this time of need.
danfromord |
| 09/24 |
RE: "All risk agency"
I know that we use that phrase freely in Florida's DOF. We are not
specificaly trained in specialized areas like vehicle extraction, but in
Fl there are 2 levels of Structure certification, FF1 & 2. FF1 is the
level that volenteers are required to achieve. They are taught first
responder, and some basics of structure fire fighting, (160 class hours).
Although the rules are always changing, at this time all new DOF Forest
Rangers are trained up to FF1 as a part of their basic package. More to
the point, we are an "all risk" agency because of our constant
use of the ICS system, and our training and experience in dealing with
high stress/ disaster situations. We get dispatched to flood relief,
hurricane or other natural disasters, or any large scale incident. We are
all risk because even if the event was totally foreign to us we have first
responder training, and the training to implement ICS and help provide the
one thing that all large scale incidents need: an organized response.
I hope this clarifies "all risk" I can't perform heart
surgery, or stop a tidal wave or whatever else could be the problem, but I
have the basic training to address the situation, call for the proper
authority, establish a paremeter & to begin to control the incident.
(Even if as with hazmat stuff "control" means stay way the heck
back and keep everyone else away too!!!
As to the tone of several posts, there are some things better left
unsaid. At this time in our country anyone who allows themselves to get
sidetracked into PETTY fueds in my eyes is at best a fool and possibly a
traitor. Let's lift each other up.
Flash in Fla |
| 09/23 |
hey all,
someone please explain this argument about all threat fire services.
since sept 11, i have been very preoccupied with what happened in the
east. is the usfs an all threat service? are they trained to fight
structural fire, do vehicle extracation, provide ems service, collapse,
confined space rescue and all the other things an all threat service does?
i didnt know everyone was trained in this.
the usfs does a great job with wildfires but anything else? please
educate me.
i may have misread this whole thing and if i did i apologize.
BC Davis |
| 09/23 |
From Firescribe,
Teams back east -- here's a good one:
www.gorgenews.com |
| 09/23 |
Jim, you have completely missed the point....
The point is we (the USFS) have been driven to the function of an ALL
RISK fire service agency and some have missed the boat. Training and
experience has been available. 20 years ago, when I started, there was
another agency that had realized you couldn't play "FIREFIGHTER"
unless you were a "FIREFIGHTER". They started equipping and
training their firefighters as such. That agency was the CDF&FP.
Today, most wildland firefighters want to be recognized and paid as
firefighters (081 series) but some dont want to be brought into the 21st
century. My simple point is that I'm tired of people saying that "its
not within our mission". Our mission is simple, "Caring for the
Land and SERVING PEOPLE". Think about every statement you say and see
if it fits in there. I can't think of any argument that doesn't fit within
the "...caring for the people" portion right now. What brought
my earlier post was people from within our agency (THE USFS) bitching
about why we have people on teams assigned to the east operations... We
have THE most highly skilled teams around INCLUDING the military for
providing incident management services....
Believe it or not, I KNOW EVERY ONE of the FEMA and congressional
mandates for the Forest Service. I was a part of them some 15 years ago. I
don't really know what made you think I was high on myself other than the
fact that I LOVE THE US FOREST SERVICE, my coworkers, my supervisors and
the training that I have been given. And I love the fact that there are
many employees who have realized that we must start to perform as an all
risk agency as required by mission, charter, mandate, and public concern.
How can you champion your cause, when you post a message as such? Its time
for you to retire gracefully!!!
In 1985, the Vista Grande Hotshots and Texas Canyon Hotshots were sent
to Mexico City. They were actively involved in rescue operations. Today,
we have Hotshot crews serving as camp crews. And an operations section
chief OPS1 assigned to mopping and laundry duty.... I agree that we must
all pitch in... My point obviously was very mistaken by you... I will be
happy to discuss in person the realities of ESF 4 with you and how the
USFS could really be performing those functions...
God Bless America.....
SoCal-Capt |
| 09/23 |
Just back from a fire assignment and getting a chance to read over some
posts.
I hope we hear clarification from So-Cal Capt.
I have a feeling that those who have posted in response to him don't
understand what he's saying. I doubt its primarily about the ops chief,
that was just the trigger for him to write in. I think he's saying those
of us in FS fire used to deal with only wildland fire but now deal with
much more, including medical aids, interface structures, etc etc -- and at
the team level with hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, etc and now terrorist
attacks. Some of us have the training to do what THE PEOPLE are calling us
to do beyond fighting wildland fire and some do not. I remember hearing
that the IIMTs have the fastest response time for setting up in an
emergency -- faster even than the fastest military response teams.
I'd like to see some more discussion of these issues. This isn't about
who gets the "attention" or "credit". I think this is
about what the FS mandates are, what we actually are, what we think we
are, what the public thinks we are, what the public wants us to be, etc.
I'd like to see some of that spelled out in the light of recent events.
NorCalTom |
| 09/22 |
Wow, I am floored by this most recent discussion on FEMA and the Forest
Service. I don't think there is any point to a debate about who does what
and who gets the credit. The point that seems important is that a number
of people from all sorts of agencies (federal, state, local, volunteers,
etc.) are working together in both NY and the Pentagon to figure out what
the hell to do about each the disaster sites and then to do it. The other
point is that there is learning all around, on all sides, about what each
person and agency has to offer and how much better they can work together
in the future. There was at least one Type I Team in Oklahoma in 91, and
there will be many more in NY. Each of these teams has a specific role to
play, and each person knows how they fit into the big picture--that's the
point of ICS. So, really, who cares if an ops chief is mopping the floor?
I thought it was hilarious, and I'm sure he did it because he's the kind
of guy who steps in and does whatever needs to get done. Bush, Cheney, and
the BLM, USDA, and USFS Chiefs have all been to the Pentagon site--they
know who's there and what's getting done.
My heart goes out to everyone in NY and Washington, and especially to
the folks who have been digging through the wreckage to find some sign of
life, and then carting all of the miscellaneous pieces away for more
examination by more people. What a horrendous, horrible, disheartening
job. Our people and the folks out east need all the support they can get
as they rotate in for their turn. I only wish I could do more, but I'm
keeping my eyes open. Please be safe out there and everywhere...
22 |
| 09/22 |
Our City Firefighters volunteered for a 24 hour drive through $
collection function. They collected over $160,000 during that time. Our
City's population is 70,000. The money is going directly to The New York
Firefighters 9-11 Disaster Relief Fund. Thank you to all the generous
hearts across the country who donated to this fund and many others. Thank
you J.E. for starting the process of pin sales. We are eager to submit our
orders.
EG |
| 09/22 |
Here's a link to connect you to some reputable donation sites: www.libertyunites.org/.
When you visit these websites, one thing you should explore is what
percent of each donated dollar gets to your intended recipient. Some
organizations hold back more than others to cover their
"management" expenses. Others have volunteers who donate
management time to the organization, which often results in a larger
percent "reaching the ground".
Firescribe |
| 09/22 |
I have just recently returned from the Star fire and am slowly catching
up. One thing that I saw that has me completely confounded was an article
in yesterday’s SF Chronicle about the firefighters in Berkeley being
ordered to remove the large flags from their engines so as to not provoke
the “peace” activists. The paper stated that the chief reluctantly
ordered the flags off the rigs because he didn’t want his firefighters
being distracted by having to fight activists instead of fires. The
article went on to state that these ‘peace activists’ were rioting and
looting in their anti-war crusade.
Have I missed a page somewhere?? These people are calling themselves
peace activists, but their actions are those of ordinary criminals! What
justification do they offer for destroying and stealing property? These
are not ‘peaceful’ acts and there is no justification; they should not
be treated any differently simply because they have mislabeled themselves!
Firefighters throughout the nation are flying flags of all sizes in honor
of those who lost their lives trying to save others in New York; anyone
protesting this show of support by carrying out criminal acts should be
immediately thrown in jail. I don’t know what to do other than write a
letter of support to the beleaguered chief who had to make that
distasteful call — any ideas?
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest—also a big thank you to
those who have traveled to the top of the state to fight the Gasquet and
Happy Camp Complex. The flag is flying here. Stay safe!
Pyrogirl |
| 09/22 |
Hi Ab,
In Reguards to this comment made by SoCal-Capt.
"I feel sad though. I saw a senior Operations Section Chief from a
type 1 team mopping the floor on the team site. I am sure that we have
folks that could perform more than as a janitor during this national
emergency..."
I feel sad for you, being this is a NATIONAL time of disaster, and the
need to pull TOGETHER as a NATION, DOING ANYTHING to help out regardless
of what the task, regardless of what your training is. No one is above or
below, just doing what needs to be done.
As the wife of a Batt Chief, I am very very proud of everything and
anything he does, and knowing so many on his type 1 team, and others in
the FS, that they would be proud to do what ever they needed to do to help
out in this time of Disaster.
A very Proud Wife and American |
| 09/22 |
To all of my Brother and Sister Wildland Firefighters that have posted
thoughtful comments about the WTC Horror and the LODDs that occurred,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Your thoughts and prayers are very appreciated. We
are all Firefighters and are a part of a huge and wonderful family.
Bob
DFC (soon to be retired) Boston FD |
| 09/22 |
RE: PIO making a political comment.
I was there too. I happen to know the PIO was repeating a direct quote
verbatim from a newspaper article. The article was bylined from the Copley
News Service, which usually leans right.
The PIO was requested by many firefighters for newspaper articles. The
remoteness of the camp made getting newspapers difficult. He was merely
responding to popular requests.
GN |
| 09/22 |
AB.
I just wanted to let you know that Nor-Cal IMT #2 was on a fire
assignment during the recent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington,
and the news filtered in alittle slower there than if we had been home.
This team is made up of Fed., State and Local folks and does a great job.
During our team dinner (the last night of the assignment) we took a
collection for the firefighters and police officers in NY, and from the 36
member team, collected $1,800.00 in one evening. Not bad for abunch of
folks who had been in Fire Camp for the past 10 days.
Made me proud just to know them, let alone be part of this team.
BL |
| 09/22 |
To All
I have decided to front the money to make up 500 pins with our WTC
design. The pins will be rectangular in shape and the only wording will be
the copyright at the bottom. The cost will be $5.50 to cover shipping. It
will take at least 4 weeks to have the pins made. All profits will be
divided up between the NY firefighters 9-11 Disaster Relief Fund, NY
Police and Fire widows and children benefit fund and an as yet un-named
group for the Pentagon folks.
The pins will go on a first come first served basis, and hopefully I
won't be stuck with 400 pins left over.
To avoid clogging the WLF bandwidth, please send any questions to
ihogman@yahoo.com
Jim |
| 09/21 |
Mellie,
Thanks for putting the site together. Please add Salt Creek and Mt
Adams WA to your list. www.fs.fed.us/gpnf.
Cam and pictures available.
HM
A link to some cool pics of air ops ferrying crew on the Salt Creek
Complex. Ab. |
| 09/21 |
Here is some current and more accurate information about the
International Association of Wildland Fire. Yes, it was reorganized a
couple of years ago. It publishes WILDFIRE MAGAZINE and the INTERNATIONAL
JOURNAL OF WILDLAND FIRE and hosts conferences around the world, such as
the Safety Summits. It no longer has a bookstore.
It's motto is: "Facilitating communication and providing
leadership for the Wildland Fire Community".
The Mission Statement is:
"The IAWF is a non-profit corporation formed to promote a better
understanding of wildland fire, and built on the belief that an
understanding of this dynamic natural force is vital for natural
resource management, for firefighter safety, and for harmonious
interaction between people and their environment. The IAWF is dedicated
to communicating with the entire wildland fire community and providing
global linkage for people with shared interest in wildfire and
comprehensive fire management."
The web site for the IAWF is www.iawfonline.org/
The contact information is:
4025 Fair Ridge Drive, Suite 300
Fairfax, Virginia 22033-2868
(804) 833-2955
(804) 326-0838 FAX
wildfire@iawfonline.org
Jackson |
| 09/21 |
MISCELLANEOUS AND SUNDRY RESPONSES TO RECENT POSTS:
TO: Jim RE: FEMA etc. I agree with everything you said except
for the part where you said "more folks than you think know about
FEMA" --- the media just never seem to note the fact that the
femarrhoids cut the checks and it's the firefolks who do the work when a
team is dealing with a non-fire disaster. It's FEMA-this and FEMA-that all
over the news, but no one ever says or hears that it's our fireboys and
firegirls out there doing the support. My guess is that this is
two-pronged problem. Number One is that FEMA likes to tell the reporters
they're bringing in teams and Number Two is that the teams they bring in
don't particularly care to point out that they belong to the BLM or USFS
or CDF or BIA or NPS or a state or Kern County or whatever -- and not
FEMA. They're there to do the work (!!) and not to hog the credit.
Which brings me to ... perhaps the IO on each team when they're called
out could make a special effort to find at least one spiffy reporter to
educate on this item.
TO: noname RE: the IMT in No. Cal. RIGHT ON. To anyone else who
was there: I'd sure encourage you to run this up the ladder and request
repercussions.
TO: Al and Basque RE: airspace restrictions All you need to know
and then some is on the tanker
pilots board. Check the posts from Our Gal Julie Stewart.
TO: Mur RE: the memorial design and why it won't be a pin: I got
a note from Vicki Minor, the director of the Wildland Firefighter
Foundation (the one that's sending pins on behalf of wildland firefighters
to FDNY), and she said she just got a check for $5000 from the Crescent H
Ranch and Indian Paintbrush subdivision in Wilson, Wyoming. They said they
were making the contribution in honor of the firefighters who saved their
homes and especially the IC (Carvelho) on the Green Knoll Fire. WOW.
and to JIM re: Operations Chief mopping the floor: When I was
but a wee lass, I remember the uproar at home when my dad got busted by
The Union. He was caught picking up and clearing a bunch of cardboard
boxes from the loading dock. The union had a litter of kitties and made it
clear that Dad was a management type and couldn't possibly ever do that
again - he was required to go find a union guy to do that sort of thing. I
do believe it was the first time I ever heard my dad swear.
kelly. |
| 09/21 |
You said you would provide a larger picture for T-shirts. Where and how?
Thanks.
Goldilocks. |
| 09/21 |
Thanks to Rino, Tom and All for the additional fires to add to the list
of CA fires,
2001. I had mostly concentrated on the ones with internet links, but
will include the others also. How small shall I go?
Gee, "the shoe" with all the flaming going on here, I'm
really glad to hear you aren't "the boot". (And of course I have
never criticised the powers-that-be, never ever... <shaking head
emphatically> nor have I ever inhaled...)
In all seriousness, I think we all agree this is a stressful time and
time to pull together - united against terrorism.
Mellie |
| 09/21 |
Lots of apprentice positions open in California - 250 of them. See
where they are on the Jobs
page.
Also, Series 462
and 455 have been
updated.
Ab. |
| 09/21 |
Re: the IMT in No. Cal.
Thge fact that the team rotated out before the attack is irrelevent.
The FACT is that, no matter what you personally feel about the President
(or anyone else for that matter) should be kept to yourself. These people
were at work, and at work you keep your mouth shut about politics. The
other FACT is that the President is your boss as a federal employee. At
work, he deserves respect, not because of a national tragedy, but because
he is the Commander in Chief. (Notice the word COMMANDER). An
"Incident Commander" would not tollerate being disrespected by a
strike team leader, and if this STL had talked to the press about the IC,
they would be removed immediately from the incident.
If this, in fact, happened, they should be disiplined plain and simple.
Keep your mouth shut about what you "think" and do your job!
noname |
| 09/21 |
socal capt
I'm glad you are so full of yourself, but maybe if you understood about
missions and ESF4 you would know that the USFS is also charged with other
ESF missions.
"ESF 4: Fire Fighting. Detecting and suppressing wildland, rural
and urban fires. Lead agency: U.S. Forest Service, Department of
Agriculture"
ESF2 Communications - Support Agencies
4.The agencies listed below provide the indicated support to ESF #2
efforts under the FRP.
a.Department of Agriculture, Forest
Service
- Provide radio communications systems for support of firefighters,
law enforcement officers, and disaster response operations;
- Provide engineers, technical personnel, and liaison staff to
assist the ECS and to maintain the National Interagency Radio
Support systems;
- Provide National Interagency Radio Support systems for use by
damage reconnaissance teams to report information from the disaster
area to the DFO, and such other applications as determined by the
radio communications coordinator;
- Provide a communications officer to accompany radio systems for
the purpose of user training and operator maintenance
indoctrination; and
- Provide additional radio systems required for the establishment of
a DFO radio net.
I won't take up any more space with ESF definitions (yada yada), but
the USFS has several other support functions. I to am proud of all the
folks who have had the chance to serve our country during a disaster. I am
also proud of the folks who stayed at home to do the work that allowed me
to participate. You might be surprised to know that more folks than you
think know about FEMA, and the FRP. Just because a person draws a paycheck
does NOT mean they have to run off and do disaster work, one must be
trained to do the work. You also don't seem to understand the hierarchy
and privates do not tell generals how to do business.
I want to know what you mean by "there are members of our agency
(The USDA - Forest Service) that are afraid to perform at the level of
their training, experience, and equipment in fear of not "meeting the
mission of the agency" and not being supported by the Washington old
school FS." Are you saying that USFS employees are afraid to perform
when asked? Are you saying that the WO does not support the ESF function?
Lastly, in regards to the Operations Chief mopping the floor. I would
opine that he was qualified to do his job and allowed his operations folks
to do their job. I also think he is a TEAM player who sees that something
needs to be done and has the time to do it. You seem to be hung up on
pecking order, but do not understand the team concept.
Ab, sorry for the length.
Jim |
| 09/21 |
A reply to Al's question
As far as I am aware, there is no restriction on aerial fire fighting
as of Wednesday (aerial ignition ban lifted) the biggest restriction and
problem on the Happy Camp Complex is smoke and the inversion layer, which
have left the air assets grounded occasionally.
Basque |
| 09/20 |
Hi, Ab - thank you for all the work you and others did on the pin design
and for your email to all of us about why it wouldn't be forged into a
pin. It truly is the most beautiful design I've seen on the web or
anywhere.
Bless you,
Mur |
| 09/21 |
Ab,
I'd like to point out a little known fact to folks within the Forest
Service. The USDA - Forest Service is tasked with a very important
national preparedness feature. That feature is coordinating FEMA Emergency
Support Function 4, Firefighting. (See earlier posts on IIMT pages). That
is, for ALL ESF Function 4 operations within the United States during time
of National Emergency, whether it be natural or man made disaster. It has
been visible with past operations such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and
now.. terrorist acts. The Forest Service provides Interagency Management
Teams in support of these functions. There are currently three assigned
today in New York and at the Pentagon.
This is not a new operation and has been in effect at least since the
mid- 1980's (probably earlier) when I first realized we were tasked for
the operation. I noticed this after being assigned to Hurricane Hugo
support and looking through some written agency info.
The question comes.... Since we provide this function and are directed
by legislation to provide this function during Presidential Proclamation
for National Emergencies... why haven't more of our folks been informed
and trained... I've known about this for many years (its really easy to
look up and find) and I have used it many times in my
"discussions" regarding "Thats not within our mission"
statements with fellow employees. As an employee in Region 5, I take pride
in my knowledge of all-risk operations. I am happy that we have
firefighters trained in Heavy Rescue Operations (Rescue Systems 1 and 2)
and have some have become instructors for RS1. I also take pride in
knowing that we have certified Swiftwater Technicians and Emergency
Medical Technicians. I am proud that the Forest Service has been involved
in train derailments, medical aids, traffic accidents, search and rescue,
law enforcement, disaster relief and support. While these may not be our
primary missions, they are the MISSIONS OF EVERY FEDERAL EMPLOYEE who
receives a paycheck from the TAXPAYER. I take pride in knowing that I've
received the highest level of structural Firefighter certification in the
state, as has many other Forest Service Employees..... I ALSO TAKE GREAT
PRIDE IN KNOWING that a large number of my peers in the Forest Service
(Nation-wide) and other wildland agencies have SIMILAR TRAINING AND
EXPERIENCE. I also applaud the National Park Service for putting visitor
protection and safety, as well as STRUCTURAL fire protection as part of
their mission.
I feel sad though. I saw a senior Operations Section Chief from a type
1 team mopping the floor on the team site. I am sure that we have folks
that could perform more than as a janitor during this national emergency..
I feel sad that there are members of our agency (The USDA - Forest
Service) that are afraid to perform at the level of their training,
experience, and equipment in fear of not "meeting the mission of the
agency" and not being supported by the Washington old school FS . For
Forest Service folks, our mission is narrow and fairly well understood by
the public.... maybe we should stop the BS and look at its true meaning as
they do....., and START PERFORMING AS THEY EXPECT...
IS NOT THE MISSION OF THE FOREST SERVICE or should it be....---
"Caring for the land, and serving people"
or should it be....
"SERVING PEOPLE and caring for the land"
Lets start serving the people
SoCal-Capt |
| 09/21 |
Hey Mellie:
I know the FBAN on Gage's type 1 IMT. He is a computer guru of quite
some fame. If I know him, he is probably "testing the envelope"
on a few of the Pentagon's computers. HA!
Thanks for a great job on the fires link.
the shoe |
| 09/21 |
I was recently at a fire in Northern California and found some appalling
political rhetoric as part of the evening briefing. <snip> The first
member was the teams PIO who used the podium to get bad mouth our
Commander in Chief. I was VERY disgusted to hear a team member slander the
President of The United States of America in front of more than 200
people. The buck did not stop there. Only a few days later the Incident
Commander himself got up on the stage and followed suit.
I do not care to work with or support a team that uses their briefings
to get up in front of a bunch of people to bad mouth the President...no
matter what party he belongs to! The members of that team, specifically
the ones mentioned, should be ashamed of themselves! I have never seen an
IC set such a bad example. Nor do I appreciate the PIO using their
position in that manner. These are not the kind of people we need to
represent us in front of the media, public or other professionals.
I am sure those members will read this. You know who you are. You
should resign your post as PIO and IC. These were the most unprofessional
acts that I have ever seen in a fire camp. PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!
Respectfully,
A concerned Patriot
A clarification and perspective: This Ab has determined that the
<snip> team the writer refers to had rotated off its fire assignment
prior to the terrorist attack on 9/11. Since that unifying event, I don't
think many people have criticized our President. I know I haven't and I've
certainly been known to criticize Presidents in the past. Ab. |
| 09/20 |
Here are some prelim #'s of loses to FDNY: Firefighters from 26 Njines,
27 Trk's, 19 Special Ops Apparatus & 41 Chief Officers are missing
(presumed deceased).
113 pieces of apparatus including Chief Officers' vehicles
Danny |
| 09/20 |
Hey all,
Here's a quote I heard on NPR today in speaking of the NYC firefighters
which needed to be shared.
"these guys ran up the stairs, thought they were fighting a fire,
turned out they were fighting a war..."
Stay safe (& think...)
"Kicks" |
| 09/20 |
Vinnie,
The International Association of Wildland Fire (IAWF) is a professional
association of scientists, managers, and others interested in wildland
fire. IAWF publishes a journal and other information. The IAWF was
reorganized several years ago, so be wary of obsolete web sites. The best
may be http://www.uni-freiburg.de/fireglobe/literature/iawf.htm
Puffin II |
| 09/20 |
Two newly formed interagency hotshot crews are assigned to the NY
disaster, the Midewin Hotshots from Illinois and the Augusta Hotshots from
Virginia:
Forest
Service and NIFC support recovery efforts in New York and Washington,
D.C.
Firescribe
(Note: This came in ..."The Augusta Hotshots are from Virginia,
NOT Georgia. They're from the George Washington/Jefferson NFs"... Ab
sez, We took the liberty of correcting Firescribe's post. It seems there's
an error in the article.) |
| 09/20 |
Does anyone know who or what the "International Association of
Wildland Fire" is? Is it a for profit private entity or what? Vinnie |
| 09/20 |
I have heard that the current airspace restrictions are making fighting
fire more difficult. There's even a news article on it --- check via the
current wildlandfire news link. Does anyone know first hand how air ops is
being affected? We had 3+ tankers and a slew of helos on the small
lightning bust fires in nor Calif but I didn't get to ask.
The Gasquet Fire in the Smith River NRA went from 30 to 130+ acres
yesterday. Hopefully cooler temps and moist air predicted for the weekend
will help. Watch out for falling snags. They're everywhere.
AL |
| 09/20 |
ALL: my best wishes for succesful results in this fire business> Folk
who have responded to the rescue & recovery efforts in DC & NYC,
you are involved in an incredibly arduous job - our hearts and prayers are
with you - safe return! Lest anyone forget those fighting wildland fires
or mop up - be safe!
R5Mom |
| 09/20 |
There seems to be some folks who don't have all the info about the
upcoming Wildfire Safety Summit in Missoula on November 6-8, 2001.
It the 5th Annual Safety Summit, sponsored by the International
Association of Wildland Fire; earlier Safety Summits were held in British
Columbia, Washington State, Sydney Australia, and Edmonton, Alberta.
The Safety Summit is truly international in scope: previous Summits
have had attendees from China, Spain, Portugal, New Zealand, Australia,
Canada and the U.S., as well as other countries.
Attendees include firefighters; former firefighters; wannabee
firefighters; fire managers; fire vendors; fire researchers; media
interested in wildfire; politicians interested in wildfire; literally,
anyone who wants to come is welcome!!
The Safety Summit is NOT about sitting and getting lectured to from a
podium: an important aspect of the previous 4 Safety Summits has been the
"breakout sesions" every afternoon when ALL attendees are
encouraged to meet and interact with presenters to discuss ways to remedy
fire safety problems.
Keep in mind: this is NOT just a U.S. Fire Safety Summit: while the
U.S. is a major player on the world fire scene, there are many nations
represented with a variety of situations to discuss.
This year's IAWF Wildfire Safety Summit in Missoula is co-sponsored by
the Interior West Fire Council, the NWCG Safety & Health Working Team,
and the USFS Fire Safety Group.
For specifics on the conference and registration information, look up www.umt.edu/ccesp/wfs/ |
| 09/19 |
How do we get info on the Missoula seminar? and is it open to the public
or do you have to be a card carrying FF? I would really like to hear the
info on the shelters......
sammi |
| 09/19 |
Hi All,
I made us a links page of California
fires, 2001, that also has some Washington and Oregon fires on it. The
WA and OR ones I include have nice internet records and photos, mostly
from Stutler's PNW Team 3. I am indebted to Doug Parker (Team3) who had an
internet vision and took me under his wing in Willow Camp on the Big Bar
incident. He showed me the magic that Kelly Andersson had created on the
F&AM links page. It was rich with the variety and the sense of
community that fire is. Doug stressed the need for a historical record. It
was so clear then that times they were a changing.
My interest in creating this page was to provide links to photos and
maps, dates and sizes of the incidents arranged geographically within CA.
No such complete organized archival records are available yet in any
region. For simplicity sake, I divided the list based on who was reporting
- F&AM or CDF. I may try to integrate them north to south or
alphabetically by name.
Where photos were available outside of F&AM and CDF, I included
links to those photo sites also. Some are County Fire, some are private
such as Moss's page of the Oregon Fire at Weaverville or Grayback's
collection of photos on the Quartz Creek Fire. Some national forest links
to this summer's fires, rich with information, no longer exist. I had
collected urls for the Lassen NF's Devil Fire site and the Shasta-T NF's
Big and Hyampom Fire sites. These have since been taken down. If anyone
knows the urls where these historical records can be accessed, please send
them to Ab and he'll send it on to me. If anyone knows of any other fire
photo sites, please let me know that too. There are BLM managed fires that
I had no info on. Anyone have links to those incidents or photos? (I
prefer sites that are likely to remain up and available. Ab tells me it's
a pain to monitor for broken links.)
So Firefighters! Take a look at all we did and are doing this fire
season in CA, WA and OR! Doesn't include some additional considerable
efforts on IA, but it's substantial. To all who worked on the fires of
2001, whether in CA or elsewhere - THANKS. Let's give ourselves a pat on
the back. We deserve it.
Happy browsing.
Mellie
Many thanks, Mellie. Interesting project. I gave it a home on the links
page under miscellaneous. Ab. |
| 09/19 |
L. Anderson from MTDC is scheduled to present an update of the shelter
project at the upcoming Wildfire Safety Summit, at 9:45 a.m. on Nov. 6 in
Missoula, Montana. Who goes to these conferences? Managers? Firefighters?
The Public?
HM |
| 09/19 |
I am not defending CDF decision not to play 310-1 but socalcapt's
comments are not completely accurate. CDF deems you qualified for a
position IF you have had the training and IF your supervisor and the
Emergency Resources committee in each Ranger Unit approve your listing as
qualified in MIRPS. HOWEVER trainee assignments and task books are still
required for rating as Division/Group Supervisor and ALL the aviation
positions.
180 |
| 09/19 |
Hello Ab,
Thanks for your help getting me employees. I had one sucessful contact.
I am now looking to get some work in the fall doing some prescribed
burning here in the Western U.S.
If you could post something along these lines I would appreciate it. Edit
/ improve at will.
Thanks again for your help
Scott
Type-6 Engine w/ qualified Engine Boss available for prescribed burning
assignments.
Much experience in Rx burning w/ NPS.
Scott Love
scottlove@attitude.com |
| 09/18 |
Hi everybody, great site! Did you all know that all local resources have
been released from the Star Fire except Bridger Fire, from Montana? The
Star Fire command seems to prefer bringing in out of state, very high
priced Contractors instead of using some of the local qualified contract
engines. This an afront to local Region 5 Contractors.
Whomever made the decision to not hire locally should reaquaint
themselves with the National Mob. Guide and Region 5 directives to hire
locally. This is politically INCORRECT!
LocallyPO'd |
| 09/18 |
The Jobs page, Series
462 and Series 455
are updated.
Ab. |
| 09/18 |
To Confused:
On incidents that CDF is involved with, they do a "Green Sheet"
review of vehicle accidents, injuries, and fatalities. These are not to
point blame, but to analyze what went wrong and let everyone know why it
happened. Some take longer to get out because of the extensive nature of
the investigation and the possibility of criminal action against the
person(s) who caused the fire or allowed it to get away. Check with local
CDF folks and see if they will let you review some. California OES Fire
Engines are staffed by personnel from fire departments that want the unit
to use in their districts. The department or district must staff the unit
and send it out when there is an OES call out. It is tough to determine
the experience levels of crews or strike team leaders as they are sent out
from different parts of the State. Firescope is working on a qualification
system for all firefighters in the State (yep, sounds like red cards,
except all risk fire/emergency skills will be listed).
To Ab and the Wildland Fire Staff:
Your pin design is a fitting tribute to the sacrafice of our brothers and
sisters who went forth to do what they are trained to without a second
thought about their own safety. It is also very appropriate to the
memorialize the victims of this horrific attack.
God Bless you, our fellow firefighters and the UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA,
Fyr Eater |
| 09/18 |
I've been catching up with theysaid, following the back-and-forth early
in the month and have these responses to moc4546:
On the one hand, I want to say:
MOC, simmer down, just read one of your posts of the month. With our team,
85% of the trainee positions are filled with local agency folks--- The
FEDS arent against you.. We need you on our teams .... we just want to
make sure everyone mets 310-1....
On the other hand, I want to say:
Right on.... Your comments earlier in the month directly hit the problem
in California right now... The problem isn't retirements, new hires,
etc... the problem is using folks that aren't trained and qualified for
positions.... In California, we (the Federal teams) use local government
firefighters to fill ICS positions on national and local teams (type 1 and
type 2).. The local government and Federal folks are REQUIRED TO MEET
310-1 and FS handbook direction and most have been on teams for several
years.
CDF folks aren't required. Once they take the training or are in a
position of supervision, it's assumed they are qualified. Thats the
problem. If CDF is a player with NWCG, then they should meet 310-1. The
State has adopted 310-1 uniformly (Federal and Local) with the exception
of CDF....
CDF-BC -- How come CDF doesn't want to play by the same rules, even
though the state has adopted 310-1 as the standard?
socal-capt |
| 09/18 |
I have been following your postings since I learned that someone I grew
up with was deployed to fight the wildland fires. He has been in my
thoughts and prayers constantly.
As I read on, day to day I have begun to realize just how courageous
and patriotic firefighters are on a daily basis. I admit that I probably
took their daily acts of heroism for granted, as I have never been faced
with tragedy involving fire, and I possibly do not understand their
courage and dedication, but most of all their willingness to put their own
lives in jeopardy. Firefighters bring to mind the Archangel St. Michael,
protecting us from the "assaults of the demon" and
"assisting at the hour of our death."
I just want to take this time to say you are truly our American Heroes,
and to thank you for your dedication and caring. I am sorry that it took
tragedy for me personally to realize that you are all truly Angels here on
earth.
THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU!!!!
Do you know the whereabouts of the men in Alabama Interagency No. 1? I
would like to know if they all made it home safely or if they are still at
work on the fires.
bryar983 |
| 09/18 |
Interesting that nothing was done with this information. It's kind of
like where we are today with the fire shelter situation.
Jim
http://kyl.senate.gov/p062800.htm
http://www.rand.org/nsrd/terrpanel/terror2.pdf
Ab sez, this is a large pdf file. Might take 7 min or more to download. |
| 09/18 |
I went looking for info on the teams that are in the east. Thanks Ab for
posting these Type I
IIMTs on the links page under federal.
If you look at Gage's CIIMT 3 you'll find some info on what they're
doing in Washington DC. Stutler's Pacific Northwest Team 3 which is across
the river in NJ has a bit of info on the twin towers relief in lower
Manhattan and on their function. They also have a link to photos put up by
Bateman's Southwest Team.
It's nice to have the info a comfort to know they're helping with all
their focus and attention to detail. I hope they're keeping the FBAN busy
with some non-fire tasks! (grin)
Mellie |
| 09/17 |
Wildland FF,
Remember to stay heads up. Fire season is not over in northern CA.
There were more than 30 fires burning on the Six Rivers NF from Gasquet
and Orleans on down south. We had lightning like you wouldn't believe.
Last I heard early afternoon Gasquet had only 17 still burning. Thanks to
the crews that stayed focused and picked a lot of them up at less than 1/2
acre on IA.
There are also quite a few fires on the Klamath NF, including one that
is 100+ acre described in the sit rep. Many of these fires are in remote
areas and in tough terrain. Fuel loading is high and the woods are dry.
Thanks to you helo folk out there. We appreciate your bucket support.
Be safe,
NorCalTom |
| 09/17 |
Just a quick reminder of the upcoming Wildfire Safety Summit scheduled
for November 6-8, 2001 in Missoula, Montana USA. If you register before
October 1st, you save $50 on the registration fee.
For specific information on the conference, and to register online,
check www.umt.edu/ccesp/wfs/
Dick Mangan |
| 09/17 |
Hello All, Here's our logo/pin design again with a copyright note
added at the bottom. Click on the thumbnail image for the full-sized
version.
After much discussion, we have decided not to go ahead and
personally produce this as a pin that we will sell, although we think
the idea and the benefits to New York firefighters a worthy one.
The reasons are several:
We're pleased to learn that 2000 of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation's
purple ribbon pins are being sent to the New York City Fire Department as
a tribute from
wildland firefighters to New York brothers and sisters. This is a
thoughtful and generous message of solidarity and support from our
wildland fire community. We want to thank those involved in this decision.
(We also hope our readers do not forget to support families of our
wildland firefighters - both groundpounders and air attack personnel who
have died this year.)
In addition, there are numerous
nonprofit organizations that are accepting contributions for New York
firefighters and others who died in the terrorist attacks in New York,
Washington and Pennsylvania. We do not need to create another funding
conduit. We urge you to contribute.
Along with our decision not to produce this pin ourselves, we've
decided this ribbon image should be released to all who want to use it,
provided the copyright info at the bottom is kept with the image. We
hope some of you, your families, or friends are inspired to use it in fund
raising in your communities. If money is made from this design, we hope
that any profit will go to support families of those who died.
We will also provide a larger version of the design for use on
T-shirts.
Thanks to those who caught a glimpse of the vision and contributed to
its creation. From those of us involved, our wholehearted support goes
with it. May the image and solidarity it represents circle the globe.
Ab. |
| 09/17 |
Something that says it all.......... eagle
TC
We have printed this photo eagle collage in thumbnail form because
we do not know the author or whether it is copyright. It has come to us in
two e-mails and is being used in powerpoint presentations in its full
size. If anyone knows more about its origins, please tell us. Ab. |
| 09/16 |
Ab,
That is one beautiful design!!! Out of all of the tribute images I've
seen this week, that is the one that I would want on my blouse. Please
keep us informed on what is happening.
Also, how about an image large enough for printing out to place in
windows?
God Bless America and May We All Be Strong
PC |
| 09/16 |
Ab
I am impressed with the idea for a pin with the proceeds going to a
firefighter fund. I have printed out numerous images of your design and
they are showing up around my office (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Region 5 Office) and today I have produced stickers and passed them out
where my wife and I eat breakfast on Sunday mornings. Everyone is in love
with the design and idea and want more. I would be happy to produce
anything that I can.......stickers, T-shirts, etc with your permission. I
have done similar projects like this before. All I need to know is any
changes, text (if needed), to whom the proceeds will be going specifically
and where to send them. I have resources to pull from to help with this
project and would be happy and proud to be the "Northeast
Representative" if you would like. We have already donated our tax
refund to the Red Cross and still are looking for more things we can do to
help. This thing is bigger than we all have imagined so far. It will take
some time to realize it. We are all only one or two people away from this
tragedy, including myself. We have lost a Refuge Manager and my very close
friend (firefighter) has lost 7 of his brother firefighters. Our thoughts,
hearts and prayers go out to all.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
David |
| 09/16 |
This came in from Firescribe yesterday: Wildland Firefighters to FDNY -
from us to you
www.wffoundation.org/fdny.html
Interagency incident team heads to New York
www.mailtribune.com/news/091401n3.htm
Ab sez, if you read the sit report (Links
Page), you find that Stutler's PNW Team 3 is in NJ, Bateman's
Southwest Team is is in upper Manhattan, and Gage's CIIMT 3 is in
Washington DC. |
| 09/16 |
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation will be sending 2000 of its purple
ribbon pins to the New York City Fire Department as a tribute from
wildland firefighters to their New York brothers and sisters.
www.wffoundation.org
Kelly |
| 09/16 |
First of all, My condolences to our Brothers and Sisters in N.Y., and
their Families and loved ones also. I was on the STAR FIRE in Northern
California, when we recieved the news over the radio. My crew was
preparing to head into camp for breakfast, and we all sat in our crew van,
unsure if what we were hearing was actually possible. As the morning led
on, we were finding ourselves making out of the ordinary mistakes, and
staring blindly into the smoke filtered sun. The events that took place
just hours before were finally setting in, leaving very few unaffected.
We were assigned to Mop-Up and were prepared to tackle the task at
hand, yet something fell over the Fire that morning and everything
changed. We lost motivation, and continued to think about our fallen
Structural Brothers and Sisters, and the possibility that we may even have
loved ones there ourselves.
The hike up the P-Line was slow and tough that morning. We had covered
maybe a 1/4 mile, and encountered some very difficult terrain. I was about
mid-pack, and took a step and twisted my knee, sending me to the ground in
agonizing pain. At that very moment, I realized that it doesn't matter if
you are best friends with all 20 members of your crew. The support that my
crew showed me in the next 3 hours was amazing. It took 3 hours for EMT's
and other Rescue personnel to rig a rope system and gather the appropriate
gear to get me off of that mountain, and other than those that had
continued up the hill to the Cat-Line, to begin the days work, my Crew
stayed by my side until I was well on my way to the hospital.
I apologize for getting off of the subject at hand, but we all need to
realize that within seconds, everything can change, and the person that
you swing your fire-tool next to, whether you really like them or not, may
need your help someday. My belief is that within the Firefighting
Community, we are all equals, all assigned to serve the same basic
purpose: To put the fire out, and save lives when needed.
I have since been released from the fire due to my knee injury and I
sit at home wishing that: 1) I was with my crew up on the hill, helping
make a difference, and 2) that there was something that I could do to help
our Fellow Firefighters in New York.
Please, in these times of hardship, remember that whether you are
Structural, Wildland, or Volunteer.........WE ARE ALL FIREFIGHTERS!!!!
Wear your colors proudly, don't be afraid to cry, and when you see a
Brother or Sister Firefighter, please let them know that they are
appreciated! My Flag is flying for ALL of you !
" Hazel-Hoe"
Wildland Firefighter Type-2
Idaho |
| 09/16 |
Check www.firehouse.com for a really thorough rundown of info on the NY
recovery scene.
MollysBoy |
| 09/16 |
Forget for a moment who trained bin Laden. Forget for a moment what was
done and by whom. Listen for a moment to a comment made by a Fox News
commentator as he was speaking of the Firefighters and the Police.
"AS OTHERS WERE RUNNING OUT, THEY WERE RUNNING IN"
Danny |
| 09/16 |
I have the S-290 CD rom for sale.......multiple user/student
capable.....very good package... believe it's 150.00 from Uncle Sam...I'll
sell and ship for 75.00 split it with your buddies.
Doug |
| 09/14 |
Good morning AB's and all,
A few thoughts come to mind I need to throw out to you all.
May God bless us all. We will go through changes in our lives in the next
years that only folks like my Father (75 yrs young) has seen before.
Here's a link of links for making a difference:
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency
relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
I love the Pin, I searched my local Walmart yesterday for some
red/white&blue ribbon but it was not to be found. It seems to be a
seasonal thing.
To Confused; What near miss involving OES Eng's are you referring to ?
What Fire ? I was on the Poe Incident the night they sent local gov. Eng's
down Yankee Hill Rd. Some of us were sent down Red Rock Rd. It was an UGLY
spot! Approx. 10 min after we were ordered down the Red Rock Rd. to do
structure protection, we were Spotted around and ordered out. High winds,
Flashy fuels, Low RH, Etc. We ran the Gauntlet getting out of there. Lots
of fire over the road Etc...
1 of the Eng's on our strike team along with 2 Eng's from Sac. County
were trapped down the hill from us on a structure. They fired out a Safety
Zone and suffered only from frayed nerves and a 9:10 on the Pucker Factor
Scale. No singed hair or blistered paint. All are fine. They were stuck in
there for approx. 4-5 hrs till daylight and then made their way out via
the road. I consider this a near miss. I was surprised that a Debriefing
session was not held. I was surprised at the original order to go down Red
Rock Road.
May God bless us all,
danfromord |
| 09/14 |
Having read a number of comments I thought I would add my two cents. I
believe that each FF is responsible for his or her own safety and whatever
management scheme is being used to manage the fire it must be one that
supports the FF with timely fire behavior information and a complete
understanding of the chosen strategy or tactics outlined verbally in IA
situations and written in an extended attack campaign. To this end I
instruct my crews to provide for LCES prior to taking IA actions. I give
them permission to ask questions and to continue to ask questions of line
supervisors and others when the assignment given lacks proper safety
mitigations and FF safety is compromised.
Now for the real life side of the application...... Nationwide our on
the ground experience levels are unacceptable. We must, as agencies,
provide longer lengths of employment and engage our people in fuel
reduction programs (slash burns). We need to offer a minimum of 10 months
of solid employment yearly so we can build experience levels on our engine
and hand crews. We spend big bucks each year training new recruits only to
spend more the next year training replacements. As part of a succession
plan we need to create more candidates with real life line experiences.
Classroom training is like using helicopters to drop water on the fire
with no ground resources to hold the line. My most valuable training came
at the hands of the old timers. They taught me what to do, from line
location to checking your sandwich for bees before biting into it. As I
got hooked on the fire drugs (smoke, flame and friendships) I also learned
they had shown me what not to do. Don't read this the wrong way. I support
classroom training and simulations but this alone can't provide the
knowledge skill and ability levels so urgently needed at all levels of
every wild land fire agency.
Closing thoughts on FF safety
At 19 I thought I could IA each fire successfully and defined success in
acres loss/saved. At 48 my fire actions are confined to IC and OSC duties
and I define success by getting everyone home safely. You younger FF'S are
quickly becoming the next generation of supervisors and managers. You will
have an opportunity to make changes and this will be your history and as a
great IC once said
" Men, as long as we are making history let's do it right"
As humans we have the power to decide, to make choices. Each of us must
be willing to state what we are willing or unwilling to do. This is what
I'm willing to do:
- I will not unduly risk my life for a forest or brush field, but I
will risk my life for another human.
- I will not ask others to do what I'm unwilling to do, instead I will
lead by example.
- I will not miss a chance to have fun but I will cry each time a FF
dies.
For my structural brothers and sisters and the FDNY -
FTM EGH Class of 72 |
| 09/14 |
Just a quick note to anyone that is considering making the trip to NY to
help in the rescue and recovery, please wait.
Right now the folks there are being over run with volunteers. They will
need the help but not right at this moment. It has turned into a
logistical nightmare for those in charge. If anyone wants to offer
assistance, contact FEMA or your home state emergency response agency. The
biggest problem being encountered is that specialized teams have been
ordered but then have to be cancelled due to the influx of volunteers.
They will need much more help but in a manner in which it can be managed.
For now let those in charge know that you are available, say a prayer for
those that have lost their lives, their families and our fallen brothers.
Your offer to assist has not gone unnoticed and I am sure that many of
us will be called on before this is done....
Mike |
| 09/14 |
Ab -- good job on the pin and thank you for letting me in. NOTE: We have
two type I IHC'c supporting the recovery efforts. Actually they 2 of the
new ones. (The IHC's that were created from national fire plan funds.)
>From Midewin, IL and Augusta, GA. -- Heck of an exercise.
On another note, it's real hard to sit here in Boise and not be able to
help out in my home town. I think though, that forums like "they
said," and other venues - like taking time while at our desks to just
call brothers and sisters in the fire community and vent, share, and open
up to them -- if only for a few moments -- is not only a good thing to do
- but a right and necessary thing to do. This tragedy has shaken us all. I
think about "look up, look down, look around" and this picture
of being in the center of the rubble comes into my head. Unfathomable.
Bros, Sisters - take the time to call a friend - tell 'em you love em. We
are shoulder to shoulder - hand to hand - and heart to heart. Let's give
each other the strength we will need to carry on when it all sinks in.
thanks Ab --
CJ Appy |
| 09/14 |
From Firescribe, a link to the story of one engine company:
www.washingtonpost.com
And a warning about scam artists:
www.sfgate.com/ |
| 09/14 |
Harrison Ford carries a positive image. Goldie Hawn certainly
understands prejudice and I believe is still a powerful force. Ron Howard
would have all the contacts needed. Steven Spielberg has a strong interest
in our nations struggles throughout wars.....as does Tom Hanks.
If he wanted to, Bill Gates could probably buy a pin factory and
dedicate it to making these full time until Thanksgiving.....for all I
know he might already own the equipment needed.
My thinking is that the government can provide all kinds of
money......but it won't have the world impact as if our citizens show a
special unity, and have the opportunity to show their generosity.
On a related issue I fear a growing animosity towards our citizens of
islamic heritage, and that would be a tragedy. We shamed ourselves with
the internment of Americans of Japanese heritage during WW II, singling
them out while Americans of German and Italian backgrounds joined our
armies. Let's not repeat this dark moment in our history.
Old Fire Guy |
| 09/14 |
To all who are in N.Y. and D.C. there are literally thousands of
firefighters who wish they were there to help. My wife and I have decided
to give a portion of our tax return to the fund for the fallen. The pin is
a super idea let us know when they are available and I am sure our Dept.
will buy it's share. To all who serve and defend this great nation God
Bless You. But most of all GOD BLESS AMERICA.
To the brave souls on the aircraft that made a stand and didn't let it
get to it's target, to me that is the American Spirit. It's all so sad but
the great acts of heroism come shining through like the torch of freedom.
L.A.V.E. |
| 09/14 |
Great job on the "pin". My thanks to all who contributed.
adftr |
| 09/14 |
A Tribute
FALLEN FIREFIGHTER
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Brother when you weep for me
Remember that it was meant to be
Lay me down and when you leave
Remember I'll be at your sleeve
In every dark and choking hall
I'll be there as you slowly crawl
on every roof in driving snow
I'll hold your coat and you will know
In cellars hot with searing heat
At windows where a gate you meet
In closets where young children hide
You know I'll be there at your side
The house from which I now respond
Is overstaffed with heroes gone
Men who answered one last bell
Did the job and did it well
As firemen we understand
That death's a card dealt in our hand
A card we hope we never play
But one we hold there anyway
That card is something we ignore
As we crawl across a weakened floor
For we know that we're the only prayer
For anyone that might be there
So remember as you wipe your tears
The joy I knew throughout the years
As I did the job I loved to do
I pray that thought will see you through
--annonymous |
| 09/13 |
This is a pin or logo design that a number of our community members at
wildlandfire.com have created and have been working on today. This image
has emerged in record time. Last night Ab asked for image ideas on a
design with red, white and blue "ribbon" with the twin towers in
the middle. Jim put it together with flag, pentagon and a photo Hunter
sent Mellie of the New York skyline. Old Fire Guy made the suggestion
about raising the flag and added some comments about marketing and how to
do this big enough to make it a grand offering of support. Mike and Mellie
made some suggestions about reducing the size of the twin towers so as not
to obscure the flag. Bob said we needed to lighten the towers to tan. The
image you see has evolved over the course of the day under Jim's deft
touch.
This was a group effort of the best sort. Thanks everyone! It's
clear that this image is developing a life of its own. It seems that
people want a pin they can buy, the proceeds going to the ny firefighter's
fund.
We are exploring costs and funding and perhaps finding a celebrity to
participate. We'll continue to explore and see what comes of this.
STAY TUNED.
Ab. |
| 09/13 |
First e-mail:
Re: Artwork suggestion.
Beautiful. Maybe raise the flag so not obscurred by towers?.....or heck
leave it as is. Wish I had the artistry and software some of you have.
Want to make this a really BIG thing? Have 1 - 1 1/2" pins made.
Get civic organizations (lions, kiwanis, elk, eagles, vfw etc.) to
distribute on the street. $5 donation to victims fund. Get artwork and ask
every pin manufacturer to cut manufacture price by 1/2, expedite
production. Get the endorsement of Congressmen, celebrities. Show the
world that the previous benefit concerts, marches etc. were minor by
comparison. Pick a special day for distribution.....Columbus day?
Thanksgiving? Emphasize this as a united national effort with all
donations to the victims.
Old Fire Guy |
| 09/11 |
As I read the posts, there has been a tremendous outpouring of sympathy
and support for our brothers in the fire service, and others who lost
their lives in the attack in New York city. As wildland firefighters, we
my think that we are somewhat separated from the pain and loss of loved
ones that our brethren have experienced on the East coast. Today I
received a message informing me that a wildland firefighter in Washington
State lost his mother in the attack on the pentagon. If you spent time in
Washington this summer you may have worked alongside him. We are all
closer to the tragedy than we may think, please keep our brother, his
family amd all who experienced a loss in your thoughts and payers.
WP |
| 09/11 |
Hey Ab(s)
Stutler's Type 1 Team mobing tonight (9/13-14) to NJ. A buying team
from the Southwest is going tomorrow (9/14). My thoughts and prayers are
with the families and friends of the FDNY and NYPD killed in the line of
duty and victims' families who are suffering such agony. America will
persevere and we will have justice.
Old R5'er
Our best wishes go with you all. Ab. |
| 09/13 |
Ab-
How about a printable version of that ribbon?
Ol' Dawg
We're exploring that. Ab. |
| 09/13 |
We are working to get more prescribed burns in our area. Many of our
native prairies and grazing lands are being invaded by eastern red cedar.
Fire is the best way to control these invasive species and so it is our
hope that we can set up several private operations in the area that will
work towards offering prescribed burns as a service.
Obviously one of the major issues that private businesses have to deal
with is liability. Do you have any information on liability insurance or
other means of dealing with liability? Also do you have any information on
cooperatives that work with prescribed burns?
Any help would be appreciated.
Tom Buman
Agren, Inc.
tbagren@netins.net |
| 09/13 |
Hi all
With shock, horror and disgust I have watched the recent events unfold
of the cowardly attacks on the country, and the rest of the world.
The measure of a country is not how well it does in the good times but
how it bands together in it's darkest hours.
I look on with pride as I hear that there is a problem of getting the
rescue workers to go off shift, and wish I could there to help.
Being stuck on the west coast it is impossible to get there to help,
but I (and other members of my VFD) are scheduled to give blood on Friday
(we would be giving blood earlier but that was as soon as they could get
us in, there is that many people) It is a small measure of help I know,
but ......
The hardest thing I find is my 10 year old son repeatedly asking
"WHY" (yes we have that in hand)
Be Safe
Basque |
| 09/13 |
Just posing the question why when a CDF incident management team has a
burn-over or near miss we don't seem to hear all that much about it. From
the sit. report on Mon. it mentioned something about these OES engines
that were apparently destroyed. If we are supposed to be learning lessons
from what people have done wrong or are doing wrong then they need to come
clean with some details even if they are preliminary.
Confused!!! |
| 09/13 |
Hey Ab, just heard a report that five Firefighters have been found in
the rubble alive. They were possibly in a vehicle. Lets pray that the
report is correct and that more good news is coming.
Ranger |
| 09/13 |
What a great job on the New York Ribbon. I am no computer expert so is
there a possibility that the memorial pic that Jim and Hunter did such a
great job on can be placed on the wallpaper page so it can be downloaded
to and forwarded to all the people we possibly know. To Sammi I would say,
Sammi we are Americans. We are the greatest nation ever known to
mankind. We as Americans will never be defeated. We will always STAND TALL
and bow down to NO ONE. The Japanese commanders in WWII stated that
"I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant".
Well,"THE GIANT HAS AWAKENED ONCE MORE". America will come
through this just fine. Although this did happen during our generation,
Americans have suffered much worse in the past. I don't think that any of
those that have any responsibility for these acts of war against Americans
will come through so well. Americans are generally a people of big hearts
as you are. But now the hearts are broken and the American people are mad.
"Hell has no wrath compared to that of pissed off Americans" .
The Americans are now "REALLY" pissed off. Those that have done
this will have nowhere to hide. Sammi, I have full faith in our President
in this matter. Those that have even the slightest involvement will pay
dearly. No matter what he President decides to do, we can no longer allow
our families and children to die at the hands of madmen. America will
continue to stand tall and be the greatest nation on earth. It is the
people of America that make it that way. There are no greater people. Fly
the Flag and be proud to be an American.
We have lost some of our brothers in Fire and Law Enforcement. Lets
keep them in our hearts as we do all New Yorkers at this time. To all the
families of those firemen, we cry with you and you have our love and
support. As the one Fireman said on CNN, "WE WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY
OTHER WAY".
Ranger |
| 09/13 |
update on sit here on the east coast....
At the present there are three type I teams enroute to help with
logistics. There are thousands of volunteer firefighters responding to NY
to help in the digging. Presently the situation in VA is doing as well as
can be expected, plenty of help and support. Wish it were the same for
NY...
Its going to be weeks and weeks getting to the bottom of the carnage,
and finding all of our lost brothers... say a prayer for all of us.. on my
way to NY in the next day or two, and a message to our country, we will
overcome this, it will just take a very, very long time, ..God bless our
fallen brothers.....
Mike |
| 09/12 |
Dear Ab and ALL FIREFIGHTERS,
The events of the past few days have been shocking and devastating to
say the least. The losses to our firefighting brethren is unbelievable and
my prayers go out to their families and the other victims families. I was
watching a TV broadcast this evening interviewing a firefighter in NYC. I
do not know how the context came up but the firefighter being interviewed
said "being a firefighter is the best job in the world". The
next question was "After the events of the last few days how do you
feel?". He answered " This makes it even better." I do not
know if my quotations are completely accurate, but that is what I thought
I heard. Those statements impacted me deeply. I am normally a lurker here,
reading everyone else' s statements. What I know now is that all the petty
arguments about who is better, Hotshots vs. type 2, smokejumpers vs.
hotshots, CDF vs. FS, wildland vs. structural, all these disagreements
mean nothing now. We have lost members of the firefighting community.
As firefighters we accept the risks of our profession but are never truly
ready to face a tragedy such as this, but we must continue doing our jobs.
Whether it be structural or wildland, volunteer or paid we are tasked to
protect the people, structures and land within the United States. Let's
all pull together as a firefighting community during this tragedy and lend
support to our nation. God Bless America.
R8 Fire Guy |
| 09/12 |
Ab and Indiana Dan,
The magnitude of what has happened is just sinking in for many of us. I
believe many of us in the fire community want express thanks and
condolances to our brothers and sisters in FDNY and their families. Would
it be possible to set up a establish a section in They Said for such
messages and perhaps at some point have these sent to a FDNY
representative? Perhaps something like that would provide a forum for the
firefighting community to express our thoughts and begin the healing
process, I understand from friends in the Critical Incident Management
field that things like this also provide support and a part of the healing
process for family and co-workers. Just a suggestion. As hard as it may be
we need to keep our heads in the game folks. Stay alert, our season isn't
done yet.
Ol' Fire Dawg
We'd be willing to do a page for people to post their condolences,
prayers and thoughts. Abs. |
| 09/12 |
Ab,
You could include the ribbon graphics on the they said page as a symbol
from all the posters.
Ed
We could put a memorial ribbon on the top of the theysaid table.
Does anyone have one that's appropriate? I only have the wildland
firefighter ribbon. What would be ideal is a red/white/blue ribbon
surrounding the twin towers. I have a pic of the NY skyline sent in by one
of our community. Could anyone work with that and a ribbon to make a
tribute image? Ab. |
| 09/12 |
Ab and all concerned-
I'm sure there will be many messages pertaining to the terrorist attack
yesterday, and I know that this is a forum for wildland firefighting, but
please let me speak a piece that I've been thinking about ever since I
heard about the collapse and feared the worst.
As a structure vollie who is redcarded, I've been able to see both
types of fire. Let me be the first to tell you who may not realize it that
we are all brothers in the fight against the dragon. The FDNY firefighters
who have lost their lives because of this are kin to all of us here. I
don't know if you all realize it or not, but when a wildland firefighter
or aviator dies, it is listed right along with the other LODD's in Fire
Engineering magazine. We *ARE* family!
Sure, at times, we may not get along, but in the end, w | |
