DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Nov-01) Return to Archives Page
12/31	Ab, I just heard through the grapevine the following info. The GS-8 Fire Engine Captain position is alive and well in other areas....  NATIONWIDE!!! A reliable source told me that a Forest in Region 9 (and  possibly also in region 3) are flying two of their Engine Foreman positions  under the approved National PD as a GS-8 Engine Captains. It has always made me wonder why we had approved NATIONAL position  descriptions at the GS-8 level and they could only be used in California (as  stated in the ASAP vacancy announcement process). I guess we are progressing from technicians to professional wildland  firefighters. Other Region Supporter
12/31	Ab, the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) IAFF Local F-262 has updated their web page. Lots of great info on what the association is, their goals, and pending legislative action. A great site for all Federal Wildland Firefighters throughout the United States. Also links for Federal wildland firefighters to join. Firefighters from ALL 50 states are encouraged to join. www.fwfsa.org  FWFSA Member
12/31	Ab, attached is the link for the 2002 Special Salary Rate approved for employees in the 0462 series in Southern California. This rate only applies to employees of the USDA and USDI under the 0462 series in the following counties: LA, Monterey, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, and Ventura. While this is a significant pay raise, it probably will only prove to be a small speed bump in the problem of retaining and recruiting wildland firefighters in our area. The agency had requested a 30% increase over the national BASE GS pay scale, but received less when it went through all the hoops. Prior to this raise, employees were already being paid under a special salary rate or a locality adjustment (14-16% over the BASE GS rate). The initial raise took place in Pay Period 24 and the new table goes into effect on Pay Period 1. Here is the link: Look for table 0256 --- www.opm.gov/oca/02tables/SSR/asc/BBS_all.txt  SoCalCapt
12/31	My name is Michael and I was one of New Jersey's firefighters on the Rex Creek assignment. I was wondering if there are any photos of that fire. If so can you send them to me? Thank you, Michael e-mail: FIREFIGHTER18472@AOL.COM Hi Michael, Mellie did a page of links to fires of summer 2001. Most are CA, but there are some Oregon and Washington fires. The link to the Rex Creek fire site is on there. Readers, let me remind you that you can now use the SearchWLF facility here at wildlandfire.com, link at the top of each page. Michael, you can enter "rex" or "rex and creek" and you will find the summer fires page with a link to photos. As far as downloading them onto your computer, find the thumbnail, click on it for the larger version, if available. When the large photo is on your screen, right mouse click and choose "save image as". Name it and tell your computer what folder you want to save it to. Happy browsing. Readers, if anyone has additional pics of that fire, please send 'em in. Ab.
12/31	Hello there. I understand that the difference between a burnout and a backfire is that a backfire is set to influence the main fire's direction. A burnout just burns out unspent fuel between the line and the main fire. Seen some of those. In my experience they were done indirect, way back from the main fire. As you may have guessed I don't have enough summers fighting fire to have participated in a big backfire. Thinking over my summer. Wondering if any of you have some backfire wisdom to share. Or burnout stories. I think a lot of us need that experience. Aside from summer fire, how can I learn more (and faster) about how fire actually behaves? I'd be willing to travel to someplace that has an active fuels program or even some on the ground hands-on fire behavior. One other thing. I was surprised at was how long leaves stay on trees that have been in a burnout. I've been watching one spot on a 1999 CA fire and the oaks still haven't dropped their brown leaves. Snow and windstorms - they cling to dead trees. Can't let go. Wag Dodge's (sp?) fire at Mann Gulch wasn't a burnout or a backfire was it? Just a small fire to let him survive. Done my first summer - does everyone think about fire this much afterwards?
12/31	I have a question, Has anybody sent in there new application for the up coming fire season, if so have you got a confirmation letter back yet and was the process easier this year rather then last. Hope everybody has a great New Year and AB, I hope your team won... An-R5er It didn't. <grumble><grumble> Ab.
12/31	Hallo! We are a fire-brigade from neulengbach in austria. We wish you and your firefighters a happy new-year 2002. Best greetings Freiwillige Feuerwehr Neulengbach-Stadt Wienerstrasse 201 A-3040 Neulengbach ff.neulengbach@utanet.at Happy New Year to you and your crew too. Ab.
12/31	Has anyone heard details about a raise of almost 30% for Forest Service Fire employees as of Jan. 1st, 2002? Specifically in Region 5 South Ops. Thanks and Happy New Year everyone! Seasonal Ground Pounder
12/30	Do,  de do,  de dum, de dum,  de dum.  Ab watchin' football...
12/29	I updated the Jobs Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and 0455 yesterday. Ab.
12/28	John C, CASCO Industries in Pasadena carries all types of Gear for Wildland, as well as Structural. The TX Forestry Service also carries a full line of gear that is available to VFD's and FF's across the state. Casco's number is 800/397-0930. Forestry Service is 936/639-8130 in Lufkin. Later, Keith
12/28	The NICC Situation Reports are now available on the Forest Service website, along with the IMT and Buying Team rotation lists. There is still no sure word on when the NIFC site will be back up, so this provides folks access to the Sit report. Current reports are weekly - newest one posted today. Also, the Forest Service electronic hiring site began accepting applications on 12/03. Sit reports: www.fs.fed.us/fire/fire_new  FS hiring site: www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap  Happy New Year. RD Thanks, RD. Ab.
12/28	From Firescribe, a link to more info on the DOI's computer shutdown: Indian Country Times (12/28/01) Computer Shutdown Misinterpreted by Interior  Ab sez, yeah, let's do a little of the blame game here...
12/28	We make controversy OK, but can we put down the Aussie fires? Maybe this time, we get a chance. ABC News - Row over offer of international help to fight NSW bushfires www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-28dec2001-57.htm   The Fire Brigade Employees Union is urging the New South Wales Government to lease special super scooper aircraft from Canada to help fight the bushfires across the state, as most of them burn out of control. JA
12/28	New South Wales Fire Brigades Link: www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/ Danny
12/28	Can u refer me to someone in Houston TX area who handles wildland NFPA1977 compliant jackets, styles 3300BASE & 4400SB? Thank You, John C
12/27	Thanks for the info, Everyone. Sometimes this website feels like my anchor, my home away from home! I talked with the rental property management about the lack of smoke detectors before I left and they're going to check into it. Hey Guys and Gals. I'm sorry I didn't get in touch with some of you -- VG in Bend and Lasagna in southern OR. Coulda kicked myself when I realized I didn't have phone numbers along... SmokeTrails, I didn't get your forwarded message until  I got home. It would have been fun to tie in. Hope you're still enjoying the snow. Wow, 12' along the highway near Crater Lake and 18' at the lodge which is inaccessible. White Christmas there for sure! I hope All of You are having a good break, if you're getting one. Sometimes it seems like vacation is just waaaay too short! Wow, big fires in Australia! Take care you Aussies! Mellie
12/26	Quincy, The FEO, AKA: Engineer, Assistant Module Leader, is primarily a supervisory position. Although the title is Engineer, the Assistant Engineer AFEO, is the primary driver. Your responsibility is to maintain the apparatus (mechanical, fire equipment readiness, inventory, etc.) maintain the station and to supervise the crew in the absence of the captain/module leader. You may only actually drive the engine a couple days a week. Specific duties are at the discretion of the particular station/forest you work for. I can only speak from my experiences on the Los Padres and Sequoia. If the captain takes a single resource fire assignment (SRA), you cover the engine as the acting captain until their return, often working your days off. You are responsible for the engine, fire equipment and personnel record keeping, etc. Some captains dont like to leave their engineers in charge and insist that they go on all strike team/single engine resource orders, a matter of trust if you will. My old captain was very fair and would alternate SRA's between the engineer, Asst or any qualified crewmember. Again it depends on the captain/forest policy. A "Good FEO" is someone who is a very experienced firefighter, is a qualified Engine Boss, better if you are a Strike Team Leader qualified or trainee. Has good mechanical knowledge of the engine, good interpersonal skills, and a strong, safe work ethic. Southern California has a lot of urban interface and some wicked fire conditions, you may find your engine alone in a firestorm and you must be able to act, and act safely. I know this does not encompass all of the duties or responsibilities, but I thought I would give you my take on it. A Former FEO, Sting
12/26	Quincy, Here is alittle about the FEO positions in R-5. The FEO acts as the Captain for two days out the week, the other three he acts as the engineer. You would work 5 days a week and usually work on the weekends, due to high volume of calls on the weekends. If you search the archeives (it might be the begining of this month or the end of Nov.) and read the post from USFS FEO, you will get an idea of the volume of calls and the variety of calls you will face in R-5. That is just a bit of what the FEO does on my forest. If your looking for lots of action and a wide variety of calls, take the position. I would suggest brushing up on your medical training, haz.mat., LPG training, and most of all any training you have had on structure protection and fighting fire in the urban-interface. It's very challenging and alot of responsiblitiy. You would have a fun time. An-R5er
12/26	Hello friends, We are a volunteer german fire task force (consisting of both paid and volunteer FF). We plan on going down to greece this year again to help them fighting the devostating wildfires in their country. Because we are still not under a gov budget we need help getting our PPE. The only useful PPE for wildland comes from the USA and we`d have to pay much money for customs if we order on the normal way. That``s why we post this request on your page. If anybody of you know something about getting surplus PPE for wildfires, especially - shirts - pants - goggles - gloves - helmets - webgear - shelters I`d be more than happy if you email me at Mausi112@aol.com. Please send anything according this request to get in contact about the postage and so on! Thank you very much! Yours Detlef "Mausi" Maushake German Wildfire Task Force
12/26	From Firescribe: www.eps.gov/spg/USDA/FS/0276/R1-5-02-6/SynopsisP.html For fire contractors in the Northwest and Rockies ......
12/26	Hi All hopefully everybody had a wonderful Christmas, and will have a great New Year. For the Australian Bush Fires (Australian for Wildland) check out the main paper in Sydney at www.smh.com.au/news/0112/27/national/national1.html www.smh.com.au/news/0112/27/national/index.html My brother wasn't able to make it home to the parents for Christmas due to the roads (freeways and highways) between his house and Mum and Dads closed due to smoke. Damn I should have picked this year to go back and visit the parents. Cheers all Basque Lotsa other Aussie fire news links now on the WLF News Page. Ab.
12/26	Hi, i wrote in last week requesting info on the position of feo in region 5 requesting their duties schedules and what the job is like. i am considering a move from the east coast to calif to take the job but i wanted some independent opinions on it and no one has answered. can you point me in the right direction? thanks. Quincy
12/26	Looks like they may have an arsonist running about down-under. News is dated tomorrow from The Sydney Morning Herald so you can see 'They Said' has the news before it happens....that is unless you are on the other side of the world. www.smh.com.au/ Hickman
12/26	For more info on australian fires try www.abc.net.au/news for the latest news. Larst report was so 140 homes lost. and winds of 80kmh ! and then try clicking on rural at the top and then news on the drop down menu for some more info and photos from a 24 000 ha fire on the 20th December. Stay safe West Aussie FCO Thanks for the information, West Aussie FCO. Ab.
12/26	Yes Mellie, smoke alarms or fire detectors are required under Oregon Law in a business setting such as a resort and if I was you I would call the local state fire marshall or fire district office and complain as it may save someone's life. Medford
12/26	News from Down Under www.smh.com.au/index.html Hope all had a Safe and Merry Christmas and to all of you may you have an even Safer and Happier New Year.. Hickman
12/26	God Bless You Guys for trying...(An-R5er & Ab(s)) Yeah, I just recently upgraded to AOL high speed (cable modem) and last night my dial up account was canceled, but my high speed one was never opened... So I had to sort things out with AOL, all the while my e-mail account was killed. SORRY... But everything is back up and running smoothly, so my e-mail should be good to go. In case it was lost or something, it is FM1Rommel@aol.com. THANKS SO MUCH! On an URBAN INTERFACE NOTE... Are trailers as prevalent out west as they are in the South East? Cause we lost two on Monday in part to trailer #1 setting the grass on fire and burning to trailer #2. Well, I guess for anyone that doesn't deal with them regularly; in an urban interface fire, be warned. Trailers burn hot and fast and it doesn't require much at all to set them ablaze. BE SAFE! Merry Christmas everyone! -Douglas

12/25	Hi All, Merry Christmas and what a fine day it has been! I hope ya'll are enjoying family and friends as much as I am. Love to all of you! I have a question. I'm in Oregon for the holidays, near Mt Bachelor. Can anyone tell me if smoke alarms are required (or not) in rental properties in OR? I'm totally blown away that there are no smoke alarms or fire extinguishers in this resort cabin. I know Oregon believes in less government, but fire safety seems rudimentary to me. There are fireplace and sauna, fake Christmas trees of mineature size with lights, other amenities and about 20 stuffed bears!... All are fire hazards... Whatsup with that? Mellie
12/25	Australian Fires! I heard on the BBC this morning that SE by Sydney is making a major run. Any data out there? rlhn I hope they're being safe. Ab.
12/25	ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø --=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=- ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø From the Abs at wildlandfire.com
12/25	....MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and to all a HAPPY and SAFE NEW YEAR!!!!!!! From "Aircraft Dispatch" in R-3.
12/25	>From my family to yours: Merry Christmas to all!!! Hoping everyone has a wonderful day. To those of you that have to work protecting the lives and property of the community you serve, please be careful and stay safe. Doorsmaurer
12/25	Hey Ab Just drinken beer reading your site and saw douglas situation. I work for the Idaho city Hotshots. We are always looking for good people. If any one is wanting to work for a hotshot crew, give us a call. any how happy holidays E
12/25	Merry Christmas to all. As we look back over the year, we have lost some of our family members, so lets keep their families in our hearts, prayers and thoughts this day. To all of you out there Merry Christmas from my family and myself. Although alot of us have never met, you are still the greatest family in the world. There are many families, espically out west who owe their being able to have Christmas at home to you firefighters and support personnel. All of you have a great day. It is 80 degrees here in Florida. I guess I can stop standing outside waiting for the snow. Ranger
12/24	Any of you Region 6 folks who might know WA-DNR's Roger Autry... he's been promoted from Unit Forester (FMO) into the Headquarters Building as a Fuels and Fire Behavior Specialist in the Resource Protection division. He spent nearly 30 years on the line, watching out for his own crews and others as DIVS and most recently carded as FBAN. Roger's experience and wisdom on the line will be missed. Hopefully we'll get to see him at some of the big shows. BSL
12/24	Douglas, I've been trying to e-mail some information to you, but I'm having problems with your e-mail address. Is this your correct address or has it changed? I'm getting a message saying you don't exist as a member with AOL. Please repost or maybe one of the abs could help me out. An-R5er We get the same message when using another of his aol addresses. Ab.
12/24	Hey Gang, Seems when you get into management, you don't have as much time to "play" on the computer. It's been a real long time since I've seen the likes of "They Said". Miss you guys lots. Hope everyone has a safe and happy Holiday season. For the statement about the sciene on the go PDA downloads, I highly recommend the fire liner and fire away programs. Been playing with the "behave" style of Fire Away, and really like it. Matter of fact, I down loaded it one morning last summer, and within 30 minutes, I was punch'in in the numbers on a 30 acre fire in my district. It was great to simply add the information to the fire report. Although, for those who have to type out on the DI 1202 form, not too friendly. Hope to have more time this next year to contribute more. Best of luck for all!! AZ Trailblazer
12/24	AB- Here is a link to software that loads onto Palm devices. Has several different programs available. www.scienceonthego.com I'm looking to try it as a training supplement for students at work. Take care "Another CDF BC"
12/24	To all, Have a Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year... An-R5er
12/24	Hey guys! Posted on here a few times before and now I need some help. I realize this is the hiring time for seasonals, and I am really hurting as far as trying to get squared away. I live on the East coast and there is no where for me to go to get seasonal employment. The Form C thing hasn't gotten me a reply for some reason the online BLM thing back in the day didn't work... If anyone out there has like "insiders" information (application) on ANY crews hiring please drop me an e-mail. THANKS SO MUCH Douglas (e-mail@ FM1Rommel@aol.com)
12/24	Glad to see you posted the link for the Wildfire Safety Summit at MSO last month. I haven't gone through the whole thing yet, but I've especially enjoyed reading the report by Lark McDonald about the course from MCSolutions. There were a lot of good things that came out of the Tri-Data studies, and one of the best things was this Fireline Leadership course. Oddly enough, it had a lot to do with the first year of the Great Northern Fire Crew out of Missoula this year. This crew is structured like a hotshot crew, but they're not a hotshot crew. They're actually a Type 2 crew, but they're not like other Type 2 crews. The 2001 season was their first season, and their story's online at www.fs.fed.us/r1/nfp/crew This crew is a great success story for the fire agencies, for training, and for firefighter recruitment. It's also a truly fine opportunity for people who want to get into firefighting in a serious professional way, people who don't have any background. This crew took firefighter safety and fireline leadership to a new level this year, based partly on what Lark McDonald (et al) did with the fireline leadership concept, and mostly on what crew supe Bill Miller and the other overhead were committed to and what they did this season. What started out as a plan to improve diversity hiring in Region 1 has become a model for crew training, firefighter safety, and personnel recruitment. Check it out. R1gal
12/23	Hey All, Cruise through wildlandfire.com. Still changing.... Stay tuned. Ab.
12/23	A little more history on Bill Cadola and the Type 1 Teams. R5 formed its first Type 1 Teams in 1973 I'm fairly certain. There were six. That first year I think Bill (who worked on the Klamath) was on the first Team 4 (Bill Howard's team) as a line boss and the next year as a deputy fire boss. He eventually moved up the chain of command but I'm not sure what years he was IC. He was a great guy and capable with a good sense of humor. Other guys from the Klamath on that team were Harry Taylor and Gil Davies. That was an era much like today with lots of changes including more women on crews and a no alcohol policy. NorCal Tom
12/23	The Proceedings from the IAWF Wildfire Safety Summit that was held in Missoula in November 2001 is available on the Web at: www.umt.edu/ccesp/wfs/proceedings.htm Lots of good papers by a collection of international speakers. Dick Mangan
12/23	Hi All, This Ab is just checking in. No messages this morning. As most of you, I am also "on vacation" but continue to post the board while away from home. Hope you're all having fun and enjoying your family and friends. We each have much to be thankful for. Ab.
12/22	From Firescribe: Campers admit to Leroux Fire in AZ. See what their plea bargain entails.
12/22	Yes, it is a frustrating situation with the DOI stuff -- especially so, being on the DOI side. As for the one post I read that said that DOI employees weren't even allowed to use their home computers to send out info -- hadn't heard that one -- but even if it was true, I'd have a couple words in response: BEE-ESS. However, when I went to post this to Ab, noticed that the e-mail link on "They Said" wasn't there on my home computer -- maybe big brother DOI is a little more powerful than I had given them credit for!! Anyhow, will keep people up-to-date as much as possible (or as much as I know -- which is about the same as everyone outside DOI -- zilch) -- I finally just gave up, used what little leave I do have and went home. Cache Queen OK, the email button goes back, hopefully today. We'd hate for that rumor to gain any credence. We also feel for you who are suffering the pains of internet withdrawal. Ab.
12/21	To C. Bork and others Bill Cadola was the Deputy on Team 4 when I was one of the two Operations Section Chiefs. I had the pleasure of working with Bill on several fires and seeing him at the annual Team 4 reunions. He was serious, sincere and concerned about all aspects of his team duties and his friends and family. He will be missed. Bob
12/21	From Firescribe Computer freeze halts hiring of fire crews By Judd Slivka http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1221firehire21.html Hope that gets corrected real soon. See the jobs page. One answer to the fed problem, post those Dept of Interior fire job offers here on the Jobs Page as did one theysaid poster from Wisconsin! Ab.
12/21	Ab, you forgot to put a link/button to e-mail on the "They Said" page, makes it a bit clumsy switching back and forth. FFSS from Penn, Re: Power Point Presentations. I-100 is meant to be a self study course and I doubt that you will find a PP Presentation for that, but it is so short you could do one in about an hour or less. As far as 261 goes -- can't give any help there, may be one out there-maybe not. WP Hey WP, I'm surpris'd you didn't sign that "Without Postingability" and/or "Without Powerpoint" or some such. Ya mean someone actually used that email button? Ab.
12/21	I updated the Jobs Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and 0455. Ab.
12/20	I recently read about a 30% percent pay increase in region five. Is this region wide, going to be in other regions, just forest service, blm, or what? Thanks for anyone who can shed some more light on the subject. Thanks. Mark
12/20	Will be starting winter fire training in Pa. to get ready for spring. Looking for the following courses on PowerPoint I-100, S-261, and anything on Map and Compass. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks FFSS in Pennsylvania
12/20	Merry Christmas everyone. Have a happy and safe Holiday. Ab: I know you hear this alot. But thanks for the excellent web site and the hard work you guys & gals put into it. It is very much appreciated and makes the winter season allot more bearable. Thank You!!! R6FF Thanks, it IS a lot of hard work and we appreciate the thanks. If you've noticed, we are changing some of the link buttons at the top of the pages. Haven't made the final changes on font type yet, but we are streamlining things. Hopefully the changes will make this time-consuming job a bit more efficient. This Ab still hasn't gotten to a number of photos and is likely not to until after Christmas. Thanks for your patience, photo submitters. We will get them up, and some nice ones there are. Ab.
12/20	Just read this morning that the judge is allowing most DOI websites to come back online. The article added that resurrecting them could take a few more days. As of now I can't access any of them, or the NIFC site, but hopefully the havoc is almost over. Phyllis Owen, it was a pleasure to read your sweet poem. As Ab said, when all is said and done we owe a lot to you transportation specialists.  Happy Holidays! -Kibby
12/20	TAHOE TED - I don't have a contact at OZP but the phone number of headquarters in Van Buren is 573-323-4236. If you know anybody at Mark Twain, they should have contacts. They work together some. Shep
12/20	Hello all- Many thanks for the references to the Rappel bases, it makes the search a lot easier. It will definitely help this east coaster come back out next season. GK
12/20	I knew Bill when he was forest AFMO, and agree w/ ERL, he was one of those firemen you're glad you could say you knew. I don't know which team he was on but, I do think i remember seeing him on a 620 class photo at NARTC so maybe someone there could provide info.  PS - Barfy probably knows Bill's History, if anybody knows who this is... C.Bork
12/20	Seeking a fire personnel contact at the Ozark National Scenic Riverways......does someone have a list of contacts/phone #'s in the NPS.......with the system down...makes it hard to find people. Thanks in advance TAHOE TED
12/18	Hello All, UPDATE: As I mentioned before on theysaid, I have made T-shirts with the united-we-stand-twin towers-pentagon design that I'm selling to benefit the families of those who died on 9/11. (I have about 40 left.) They're 100% cotton preshrunk white T-shirt, sizes M, L, XL, and XXL, cost $12.00 plus $3.00 for shipping. As those who have ordered and gotten theirs can tell you: you can e-mail me for info, I tell you where, you send me the size and a check for the t-shirt(s) and I send you the t-shirts. ALL proceeds (no profit to me) will go to the United Way September 11 fund (http://www.uwnyc.org/sep11/index.html).  Orders and any questions to: T_shirt911@hotmail.com (there is an _ after the T ) Dave
12/19	Hello, Can anyone give me an idea of the ins and outs of the position of FEO with the forest service: daily schedules, responsibilities, negatives and positives about the job in general? any and all info would greatly be appreciated. feel free to email me at quincy7717@hotmail.com
12/19	I see that the announcement is out for Redmond IHC. This is a developmental training detail, and according to the announcement, employees from outside Region 6, the Forest Service and even state agencies will be considered. Dates of the detail are April thru Sept., 2002. Contact persons are Doug Johnson (541)504-7351 or Deb Blais (541)504-7344. I also see that Redding IHC has an outreach out for a Squad Leader. The contact is Craig Lechleiter (503)222-5460 -Bald Paul-
12/19	GK and all, Here is some new info on exclusive use helibases. www.ihogman.com/ihfa/htack/index.html Thanks alot and I hope this helps out. An-R5er
12/19	In the book "Memorable Forest Fires", Edited by Gilbert W. Davies and Florice M. Frank published by HiStory Ink Books, Hat Creek, CA, there is about 11 pages of William "Bill" Cadola's personal remembrances. This book is a great read mostly fires in the Cascades but stories from all over. 180
12/19	I can't give you all the details but I know Bill started on the Scott River District, Went to Happy Camp, and then became AFMO of the Klamath. I have known Bill and his family all of my life and am deeply saddened by his passing. I have many memories of him, mostly funny. Thank you Bill for being a part of my life. I'm not sure what team Bill had and don't remember that they were known as anything but the IC's name. Been lurking for a few years, great site, I consider it a must for my job to keep a feel for the pulse of the grunts, And yes the DOI Internet is still down, creating a lot of havoc all over the place. ERL
12/19	Folks are working hard at NIFC to get an exemption/security clearance to the DOI order and get the NIFC website back up. If all goes well, it could be back up right after the first of the year. Other DOI sites may be down as long as late Feb but I understand they are working on a stand-alone site to provide on-line application capability. Thought this info might be worth sharing. RD Thanks RD. If there's anymore update as time goes on, we'd appreciate knowing. Ab.
12/18	The Jobs Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Ab.
12/18	Great pictures on your webpage!!!!. We used them for a 5th grade natural disaster project. Thanks!!!!!!!!! Sharon You're welcome, I'm sure. Ab.
12/18	Was trying to get info from U.S.G.S. web site (United States Geologic Survey). Most of what I wanted I can't connect to. Found and interesting message at their web site: as of Dec. 8, 2001, the U.S.G.S and NIFC were both supposed to be up and running due to the Emergency Services work they do. All other DOI links are still down due to the law suit. What was interesting was the note that said the U.S.G.S. is working with the new Home Land Security section. I hope every one has a safe and Merry Christmas and a good New Year. Be careful out there stay safe and warm. Local Agency Volunteer Engineer (L.A.V.E)
12/18	Can anyone tell me as to why the Washington Forests in R6 have nowhere near the Perm. vacancy announcements as the Oregon Forests? I have been scrolling thru the ASAP announcements and was amazed at the number of people Oregon Forests were picking up compared to Washingtons. I have got to say I'm a little disappointed, I was hoping there would be more announcements for Wa. Also why is it that some forests that I know are flyin vacancies for perm. positions in Wa. are not on ASAP? R6FF
12/18	AFEO 33 / NorCal Tom, To answer your question AFEO 33, Pierce will only be supplying 4x4's and water tenders. That's what the contract calls for. So if your station is getting a 4x2, then you'll be receiving an engine from Boise Mobile Equipment (BME). To answer your question NorCalTom, Pierce will be building all water tenders for Region 5 (and other Regions). The Fire Equipment Committee is developing specs for a "tactical" water tender. This tactical water-tender will have similar capabilities to that of an engine, but serve primarily as a water-tender. This tactical water tender will have the option of CAFS with fully automated monitors (one on top, one on the front bumper). This option I believe is available right now on regular water tenders but will be paid out of the Forest budget ($15,000.00 just fro the CAFS unit). So when all is said and done, there will be two options to choose from on what type of water tender. As far as the engines appearance. The 4x4's will look very similar to the prototype that is located on the Plumas (4x2). I don't believe that Pierce classifies that as a Hawk. Engineer41
12/18	Bill Cadola died yesterday. He will be missed. Here's the link to his obituary from the Siskiyou Daily News in Yreka, CA.    www.siskiyoudaily.com They report: He loved and excelled in his job as an assistant fire staff for the Klamath National Forest. Bill was an Incident Commander of a Type #1 National Fire Team for the USFS.... A celebration of his life will be held 11 a.m., Dec. 20 at the First Southern Baptist Church, 921 S. Oregon St. in Yreka with graveside service immediately following at the Fort Jones Cemetery. CL Can anyone fill us in further on details of his career? When was he an IC and for what team? any other details or remembrances? Ab.
12/18	My name is Jeremy Powers and I'm the webmaster for Oshkosh and Pierce. The links on the Oshkosh page are now fixed. There were extra slashes in the links and IE is more forgiving about that than Netscape. FYI, both the Oshkosh and Pierce sites were tested with Netscape 4.0 and later, for both Mac and Windows, and was even designed to work, to some degree, with several scaled-down limited browsers such as Opera. Why, thanks, Jeremy. It's nice when links work for all our viewers. What say, NorCalTom, can you read this now? Ab.
12/18	Regarding the Pierce engines: Oshkosh has the press release on their website. www.oshkoshtruck.com . Scroll down in the "latest news" to see the headline and click from there. Pierce also has their GSA Authorized Federal Supply Schedule Price List that may provide some useful information. I didn't see Forest Service engines listed specifically but saw NPS and BLM. www.piercemfg.com/gsa/index.htm  I am curious. Is the interest because of getting new engines or because they are Pierce? Shep Readers, once on the site, the link to the article under "Latest News" that Shep describes doesn't work with Netscape. You get an error message "can't locate the server". You have to use Internet Explorer to read this article. (Does Bill Gates own Pierce and/or Oshkosh?) Ab.
12/18	Nor cal tom, I saw the article you mentioned, and am wondering about the 3.9 mil price tag? 56 rigs at 3.9 mil is a hell of a bargain. works out to like 65K + - each. I cant even buy a chassis for that much, let alone an entire rig. This doi web site down stuff is getting old. just a note,  be safe later eric
12/18	Soooo....has anyone heard when, (or if) the DOI sites are ever going to come back online? Rumors were they would be back last week and then nothing happened. Kinda strange stuff going on this year.... -Kibby
12/18	Just to clarify, Arroyo Grande is a 28 person rappel/helishot crew, we will be mostly staffed with apprentices. The few positions left over ( if any ) will be filled with temporary appointments. At this time we do not know how many positions we will have. If you are interested, please go through the normal application process. You are welcome to email/call us at the address/phone# provided in one of the preceding posts. If anybody would like specific information about the crew, I would be happy to help them out. Sting
12/18	Several days ago Hickman sent a question regarding benefits in to Cynthia Y. Simons, Benefits Specialist at the DOJ. He cc-ed us. Here is his question and her reply. ----- Original Message ----- >>> " Hickman" 12/13/01 09:45PM >>> I was reading a resent post in a fire forum about a firefighter who was killed during a wildland fire operation in Idaho. His family was denied benefits since he was under contract by a private contractor who hired him. The contractor appeared to be working under a contract with the state or forest service at the time of the incident. I guess my question would deal with a possible situation similar to this: If a firefighter was working under a contract with a company such as Rural Metro, which works under contract with cities or fire districts to provide fire protection, would their firefighters be covered under PSO benefits in case of death? If so what would be the difference between the wildland firefighter and the Rural Metro firefighter, since they both work under contract? Thank you for your Information <snip> Hickman -----Reply----- From: "Cynthia Simons" <CINDYS@OJP.USDOJ.GOV> Cc: "BJA ASK" <ASKBJA@OJP.USDOJ.GOV>; "Valerie Neal" <VAL@OJP.USDOJ.GOV> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:38 PM Subject: Re: PSO benifits Hi <snip> Hickman The difference is whether the firefighter was being paid by the state, forest service or contractor. If the firefighter was paid by the contractor who was under contract with the state or forest service when the line of duty death occurred, then his survivors would not be eligible for the benefit. If the firefighter was under contract, but was paid by the state or forest service then his survivors would be eligible for the benefit, if it was a line of duty death. I hope this helps. If have any additional questions you can e-mail us again, or you can call 1-888-744-6513.
12/17	Re the Pierce engines: There was an article on 12/6 entitled "Oshkosh Truck Subsidiary, Pierce, to Supply 55 Fire Trucks to U.S. Forest Service in California". The link to it went away almost immediately or I would have sent it in. The article said that Pierce was going to supply the Forest Service in CA with 56 fire fighting vehicles for use on the wildland/urban interface.  The order is valued at $3.9 million. Many will be delivered by July, 2002. 55 plus 140 that CA already has increases the number of vehicles significantly. The order includes 31 tanker trucks and 25 Hawk wildland trucks. (their term - trucks) Something about the trucks being customized for the interface and meeting the requirements of the GSA schedule.  Pierce committed to expand its model offerings for the interface fire fighting market and that it offers a CAFS. Does anyone know if the engines will include a CAFS system? That would be a plus. NorCalTom

12/17	AB, just a comment, As I understand it the DOI folks are under the judges orders not even to use their home computers for anything that has to do with their jobs. The only way to communicate with them is via Fax or Phone. It is getting to be a real pain in the neck. WP
12/17	engineer 41 when will pierce start making 4x2s? last I heard from my forest that we are getting the new engine from pierce not a 4x4. afeo 33
12/17	GK- sounds like AG is dooing a little recruiting. -P
12/17	I have a similar question as the one below about benefits... Please somebody tell me... Which specific death benefits go to the families of wildland firefighters? Which still apply if they were on contract? What percentage of firefighters are on contract? Another widow trying to figure it all out, Diana
12/17	GK,  Try the AG station on the Los Padres. The phone number is (805) 481-1280, or you could email tplymale@fs.fed.us.
12/17	WLF and DK, Here is a site that you can get Interagency Helicopter Rappel Base Directory and Users Guide. Look up www.ihogman/ihfa/rap/. This should be very helpful, if it doesn't work, log on to www.ihogman.com/ihfa/ and get a hold of ihogman and he will get you the info. Everybody there is very helpful. An-R5er For future reference, that link is on the Links Page under aviation. Ab.
12/17	Probably if you call BIFC and ask politely they will have a list of all resources nationwide on the computer and can e-mail it to you. Dah! Medford BIFC? Now let's not confuse people. Jobseekers/newbies, before you rush off to look up BIFC on the internet or in the phone book, best check the acronyms page. Even if you try NIFC, you'll find all Dept of Interior websites are down. Not one link to DOI sites on our Links Page works. No e-mail -- all their computers are offline. (Someone musta bribed that judge so as to get some holiday time off at taxpayers' expense.) The only way those from the BLM, NPS, BIA, and FWS are reading this page and in touch with the world is from their home computers, as I understand it. Any of you want to report in? Can you??? Helloooooooooo. Ab.
12/17	RxFire, There is a 4.6 raise for all Forest Service employees that starts 1/14/2002. Region 5 has approved a 30% raise which started this last Pay Period (#24). This is for GS-2 to 8, little less for GS-9 and up. With our locality pay it actually comes out to roughly 15%. I'm not sure if any other Regions are putting in or are getting this type of raise. Hope this answers your question... GK, You might want to check the Ramona Helitack on the Cleveland, Palomar Ranger District. There are plans for the 2002 season to convert them to a rappel crew/helishots. I have not heard if this will actually happen by 2002, but you can call the district (760) 788-0250 to be placed in contact with their rep. LagunaJim....
12/16	GK, I do not know where you could find a list of the various Rappel crews around. Arroyo Grande on the Los Padres NF, is an FS Rappel crew. I don't know the number off hand but if you call a Ranger Station in Santa Maria, San Luis or anywhere in the surrounding areas I am sure they will be willing to give you that information. There is also a Forest Service rappel ship out of Kern Valley, I think they are out of the Sierra NF, maybe Shasta-Trinity NF, again if you call a station or regional office in that area, they might help you more. There is also a rappel crew out of Alberta, Canada with the Land & Forest Service. Search the FS website www.fs.fed.us and start sending emails looking for crews. Good luck! BH
12/16	GK- Here's a site that links to some FS Helitack Rappel Bases in R6  www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/aviation/rappel/rappel.htm  I'll look/ask around for others. How cumbersome to go through all the firehire locations as AW suggested, although that's an ingenious solution. I know I recently saw some kind of Rappel Base Directory/Users Guide and I'm trying to remember where. Bet you could get one from the Boise FS office or get them to fax you a few pages of info.  You'd think there would be a list somewhere on the FS intranet if no where else. I think the FS has close to 40 locations, NPS has two, and BLM has one or maybe two. The new R5 Arroyo Grande crew made Type 1 this fall. They have a good rep. Keep them in mind when you're applying. AL
12/16	Sent in by Firescribe: CNN story on the costs of fighting fire Forest Service firefighting costs rising
12/16	Any one got a good example of some answers to the KSAs for FSJOBS-02-M002 that they wouldnt mind sending me, I could sure use some quality assistance, reply at  rickandurs@juno.com  Rick Ab sez: Here's www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index_series.htm -- how to access the FSJOBS-02-M002 vacancy announcement. It's a word document. Click on the link. Form C and your résumé <heavy French accent> determine whether you make the cert list, so it is good to take some time and focus on this. Here are some application suggestions from ASAP. This is a word doc. (You can also find a link to it on the ASAP index page mentioned by DF yesterday, a few posts below.)
12/16	Hi All - After reviewing what was being said the past week or two, I noticed some talk about the Pierce contract. I want to take this time to set the record straight.  Pierce does have a contract to build the Forest Service new engines. The engines that will be produced will be 4x4's. Not 4x2's. The 4x2's will still be built by BME. Pierce will be doing the build-ups of all 4x4's and water tenders. All engines being built are still Model 62's, NOT 63's. The reason for the current 4x2 from Pierce is that it is a prototype. Pierce had to build what is referred to as a first article, so the Regional Fire Equipment Committee can review it and make necessary changes (and there will be). If you have any other questions please let me know. Happy holidays!!!!! Engineer 41 Thanks for the clarification Engineer 41. Ab.
12/16	Dear Ab and all,  Has anyone heard if the civil service is getting a raise? I have heard from friends in the military that they are getting about 6-7% increase in basic salary? I haven't seen anything on the opm website, but I could have missed it. It's looking like it will be a White Christmas here in SE. Oregon. Merry Christmas to all. RxFire
12/15	Hello6 I have had the pleasure of being a bus driver for a few of the Wildlands Firefighters crews. I think you people are awesome! To do the work that you do and still maintain the attitude you do, is truely awe inspiring! I wrote this for Choctaw 37, Snowball 6, the Globe Hotshots and every other man and woman who risks their life to fight our forest fires. The Wildlands Firefighters A lightning strike could start the blaze; The smoke is seen through the morning haze. It spirals up into the sky; There is a fire on the mountain high. The dry season is drawing near; The call goes out, "We need you here." Into the night, risking their lives, Leaving their homes, their children and wives. Wildlands Firefighters go where there's a need, Putting safety first is the motto they heed. Men and women in green and gold, Hold the line and do as they're told. They battle the flames that threaten our lands; They fight them with shovels, rakes and hands. They sleep in tents on the cold, cold ground, Ever ready for the alarm to sound. Keeping our forests safe from harm, Woods and mountains and even the farm. Duty calls, and for fourteen days, They give up their lives and their own ways.  So, if they happen to come to your town, Say a great big thank you and cheers all around! They give of themselves most selflessly, That our National Forests may continue to be! 11/09/01 Phyllis Owen (Transportation Specialist) Good Luck to all of you and a very....... Hey, Phyllis, same to ya. There's been more than one bus driver who has saved the lives of groundpounders in a tight spot. We're all on the same side. (And I know it didn't rhyme, but our women firefighters leave their children and husbands, too.) Ab.
12/15	AB, ABBY, ABE, ABETTE, and so on, This would be a good addition to the Links page:  www.firehero.org/lodd/PSOBFact.htm  And while you are in there, maybe you can correct the address to the OPM  site, you have: http://www3.opm.gov/oca/payrates/index.htm Somehow a  '3' sneeked in be hind the WWW. Later, WP I added the new link referencing family benefits available following a LODD  to the Links page under "federal employees".  Also made the other corrections. Always 'preciate knowing about broken links. Thanks WP and Rhino. Ab.
12/15	A lump of coal for the bean-counter like musings about risk from michael. He will go far if he is in CDF with all the Forester-Accountants running the fire department. Does he really have the cheek to talk about risk in terms of dollars...on THIS page? What about the risks of those doing initial attack on Late Season wind driven fires and going a whole day without aircraft, dozers, even crews? You talk about acceptable risk to the person at the end of the hoseline facing a 150' sheet of flame with virtually no back up, maybe even without type 3 engines. A pox on you. Wildland fire resources should be available until the ground is saturated and herbaceous fuels begin their growth cycle. Sorry, but in So Cal that is December. And we (CDF) are budgeted until December 15. It was only Forester-Accountants trying to save a few days worth of salary that caused us to close. Fireball XL 5
12/15	REMINDER - Round 1 Permanent Fire Jobs (Vacancy Announcements-FSJOBS-02-D00, FSJOBS-02-M002) went up on the ASAP site on 12/03 and people have to have their applications in by 1/15/02. Not much time to get your stuff in a heap and out on the street. Lots of jobs in R-6, 19 on the Umpqua N.F. alone, so all you temps and folks who want an upgrade, go get 'em. This web site will get you in, www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index.html DF Check out the jobs page for more details and outreach descriptions for jobs on the Umpqua. Ab.
12/15	WP, regarding the pot of money available in line of duty deaths: Reference www.firehero.org/lodd/PSOBFact.htm . Department of Justice, PSOB Public Safety Officer's Benefits. The amount listed at $151,635 for 2001, I believe President Bush raised the amount after 9/11. Rhino
12/15	I want to thank you for all the information. For people that don't know what to do, my son received a book of letters that were sent from all over the United States from Firefighters sending their condolences. He then saw how many people really cared about his father and was filled with sorrow, but also pride that his father was a hero and died saving others lives. That is the concern no matter if you're contracted or not. We are all one brotherhood, but not from a Federal or State point of view. Please ask your organization what you can do to change this and help the next family that loses a parent! My son will never be the same but he knows that there are a ton of people out there that care about him and his dad. DRC DRC, and others, take a look at the link below that k. sent in for NWSA, a contract wildland firefighter association. I don't know anything about it and I know this is too late for your family DRC, but others might look into joining this organization. Ab.
12/14	The Jobs Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Lotsa jobs in Oregon, Umpqua National Forest and jobs offered by the state of OR. Check em out. Not nearly done with the photos, but here's a sneak preview of some photos of the Moose Fire in Montana, 2001. That fire burned over many jurisdictions in late August. Photos probably were taken by someone on Humphrey's IIMT. If anyone knows who the photographer is, please let us know so we can give credit. Ab.
12/14	http://www.nwsa.net/ 1-877-676-NWSA President:      Rick Dice Phone: 541-746-7528      E-Mail: RDice@msn.com Vice President:      Mike Wheelock Phone: 541-476-0033      E-Mail: mike@graybackforestry.com k.
12/14	USFS FEO, When you were totaling up how much you are worth dead, you missed a big pot of money! There is a federal program that pays a tax free benefit to any firefighter or police officers family, if they die in the line of duty. When I first heard about it years ago it was $60,000.00, later I heard it was up to $100,000.00 and might be higher now. I do not know the name of the agency that administers the program, can any one out there point in the right direction (web site)? As far as I know the program does not apply to contractors, but stuff happens and they might be eligible? WP
12/14	DRC, Try contacting the NWSA. Maybe they can point you in the correct direction to help you . They deal specifically with contract crews. The president ( if I remember correctly) is named Rick Dice. I hope this may help somehow.  R6FF
12/14	Hey Ya'll, You really should go to Krs Evans' website and read and see the photos of his experience getting hit by the falling snag, being in the hospital in intensive care and now in rehab. Photos of his dad, crew who stood by him, etc. His story is very conversational, matter of fact and funny at times.  He has such a fine spirit, nothing of the victim, and his site is very interesting. (He also has some outrageous hotshot humor, the likes of which we aren't allowed to post here, if-ya-know-what-i-mean, Ab.) He writes every few days of new experiences, so it's always changing. Excellent writer. And has said that people he doesn't know are e-mailing and he really enjoys that. Go read, look, laugh, enjoy. Send him an e-mail. Krs is neither a victim nor down in spirit, but as JH said, he does have a big mountain to climb and would certainly enjoy the cheers from our sidelines. Hey Ab, I know you've posted this link before, but please put it up again. www.krstofer.org Mellie I also found his site thoroughly enjoyable in places and interesting in others. When you get to the front page and his name, click on it for all the other pages. Hotshot Down is a no-nonsense account from a good writer. Ab.
12/14	Some photos, lots of photos to do. Thanks for the many contributions. I'll get to them today. Ab.
12/14	DRC, I am very sorry for your loss and for all the members of our family of firefighters who have lost their lives serving the public in any capacity, paid, volunteer, inmate or contract and otherwise. There are many of us out here who would be glad help you out if we knew how to contact you or your representative. Do you have a trust fund set up for your son? Remember it's not about the government, it's about us. No one else is going to care as much as we do. Abs thanks for this forum - maybe we can do some good for somebody. Merry Christmas and God Bless. Backburnfs
12/14	r3 Flyer------ Thanks mucho for your help. I had earlier called KNDO TV but they said they had no tapes left. Will continue hunting as I think that tape must be very, very touching and a very special event. Doesn't surgery get in the way of regular life, though. Darn and blast it. Jane
12/14	Amen WAFF.  But I have to say. I think you have a bad outlook on the whole Fed vs. Contractor issue. Why do I say that? Because I worked as a Crew Boss for a contract crew this year. All my previous experience was with the Feds. Yes they do have it tuff and have to jump thru alot more hoops than most people. But I never realized how many loyal brothers and sisters are out there until I was on the other side. My crew worked with shot crews who commended us on our work. People in finance helped me fumble thru the hoops. We cut miles of line and rolled tons of hose and mopped up over fed crews. We were commended and not once did I feel like my crew was being looked down upon by the people we worked side by side with. The rules were put in place by higher ups not our fellow firefighters. That is all I have to say on that matter. I too lost a friend this year and my condolences go out to the families of our fallen brothers and sisters this year. R6FF
12/13	Hello all, Abs, Would you mind if I solicit a little advertisement on the site for a recruitment open house on the Los Padres National Forest, for the 15th of Dec? We will be taking questions and handing out information on the up-coming hiring process for temporary fire positions for the 2002 fire season. The open house will be at the Air Tanker Base ( 90 Arnold Dr., Goleta CA ). If you have any questions or need directions on how to get there, please call (805) 967-6115 ext 202. Thanks alot, Mike
12/13	GK about rappellers, There isn't much information on the internet. So far the Federal agencies have done a pretty poor job of getting onto the internet. Probably the best way to get the information you want is to go to the firehire site, go into locations and call the districts that list helicopters. www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index_locations.htm pick the region AW
12/13	Have to agree with fireronin and mellie, I too did not respond as I had no useful information to offer, I was happy to see the first post from WAFF as I thought it showed there was somebody who was knowledgeable about the problem, I did not respond to the severe injury of the hotshot posts either for much the same reason. DRC, I do wish you and your child well and am sorry for your loss. As far as better treatment for contractors, there are contract firefighting associations out there. Perhaps you might be able to contact them. I doubt there is much that can be done to directly help you at this point but they might be able to put you in touch with people who are trying to change the situation, to prevent this in the future. As Mellie said, California amended their laws to include contractors working for government agencies in the states benefits program. I hope you don't take the lack of posts as the people here not caring. I'm sure most just didn't know what to say. As to the contractor vs "government" firefighters, the employing agency or company bears the responsibility for the bulk of the employees protection. I did a quick search on the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. For the most part the benefits are moral support groups, plaques and some undisclosed amounts of financial assistance primarily aimed at allowing the families to travel when necessary in relation to participating in the activities mentioned above. The college tuition assistance paid for by the Government has only applied to Federal firefighters since 1998 (and Federal Law Enforcement since 1996) and was basically intended as a recruitment tool. Other benefits only apply to members of the IAFF (which would exclude many federal firefighters), most federal wildland firefighters (except members of the FWFSA I would assume as well as volunteers and contractors). A quick bit of math leaves me with this: if I were to die my family would get approximately $150,000 from the life insurance (which I pay for although at a lower government rate) plus tuition assistance of $404 per month (roughly $20,000 over a 4 year degree program) and the Forest Service pays an additional amount (2x my yearly salary? so say another $60,000) for a line of duty death and Social Security benefits (which contractors should be entitled to). So this is roughly $210,000 through the Forest Service, $20,000 from the NFFF, and Social Security. As I said above, the bulk of death benefits comes from the employer. WAFF, if you want to discuss the contractor vs government employee issue at a more appropriate time I'd be glad to discuss that in a constructive fashion, I don't know all that much about it as I've never been on a contract crew but I'd be willing to learn, you obviously have some issues on your mind about that. USFS FEO
12/13	Jane, this may be the info you are looking for...Television Station KNDO, 1608 S. 24th Avenue, Yakima, WA 98902, had a film crew present that filmed the entire event, beginning with the fire engine processional and ending with the service at the Yakima Sundome. Earlier this video was available for the cost of $25.00, all of which was to be donated to the forest Firefighters Memorial Fund. This info was provided by an Information Assistant at the Naches Ranger District, telephone 509.653.2205, ext. 228. Hope this helps,  r3 Flyer. Thanks r3 Flyer. Ab.
12/13	WAFF, You may have misinterpreted the lack of posts as lack of caring. I for one did not post because I had nothing practical to add to your earlier post. The only action I see as having any hope is to seek out a lawyer to recover damages or insurance proceeds through the contractor. You said it all as far as I was concerned, including your condolences. I think all the folks that lurk and most that post feel that what you said represented us all. You gave the only advice I could have offered that might have been of use. If I had anything to add I would have and I think this goes for most of the other folks in the fire community that read your post. Just because there were not a bunch of redundant posts reaffirming what your post said, doesn't mean that we don't care. On the contrary. We ARE a family. When one of our own is hurt or killed it hurts all of us. I have seen grown men cry for fallen comrades that they never met because it hurts so much. I have been known to do so myself. It doesn't matter who writes your checks...we are all brothers and sisters. And I think we all felt the same helplessness at being unable to think of better advice than yours. I did. Yes, there are those that mistakenly display their pride in their own unit by treating others as inferior. Some are old and set in their ways, others young and foolish. Yes, there may be one or two that are miffed by your bringing up the shoddy way contractors are treated sometimes. Who cares. And yes, maybe you have a point that we should demonstrate a little more compassion toward our fallen comrades and their families. How specifically would you suggest we do this? But please don't go away angry.. or go away at all. If you believe you are at all right we need your point of view. Nuff said, Fireronin
12/13	WAFF, Many people who read here care about benefits for contractors and for vollies as well as for fed and state employees. Now you can even SEARCH back through the past theysaid posts to find all the discussions about benefits. My friend Karen died when run over by her engine while fighting a fire in Redding CA, fall of 1999. She was a volunteer. Immediately ALL the firefighters in Denny Camp, not just the vollies, took up a collection for her two girls. The outpouring was profound. Richard Blood, a contract bus driver, was murdered at the Anderson CA Fairgrounds while rotating off the Big Bar Complex, fall of 1999. Through an oversight and the fact that the overhead teams were also in the process of wrapping it up and leaving, his family was not even offered condolences from the fed fire community until way later. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, please.) While his children are grown and not so in need of educational funds, the lack of support from a high level was painful. After Larry and Lars (contract AT firefighters) died in the mid-air collision this summer, many responded with support, financial and emotional. As the result of the hard work of a number of AT pilots' wives, a bill was passed in CA. It entitles children of those who die while fighting fire (or engaged in law enforcement) in CA to go to state colleges and universities tuition-free. (I believe the legislature must vote to extend it in two years, so your support to lobby that renewal may be called on at that time.) The point is that the change in law came about because pilots, their wives and the fire community spoke loudly about the inequities in contractor benefits and pushed to get the change done. Such balancing of support resources needs to happen across the nation. As far as folks here not joining you in responding to DRC because they don't care about contractors, you're wrong. Here's an alternative explanation: People often don't know what to say when confronted with people who have lost a loved one -- especially when the person feels like a firefighter's child is not getting the support they need. Even I sometimes don't know what to say. Frankly, I was glad you replied so wonderfully to DRC. So I hope you continue to join us when you feel you have something to contribute. But ultimately, it's your call. Mellie
12/13	GOLLY, I am so GLAD that WAFF got all that off the chest!! Gosh, Ab, a person could develop an ulcer feeling that snitty and not blowing it off on your site. All seriousness aside, I suspect the reason that dozens of people did not pigpile all over the post about the benefits for a lost contractor is that many of us have been dealing with that issue for ages and ages and ages. What happens when contract tanker pilots die? Who provides those benefits? It's an old issue, an ugly issue, and not one that will go away anytime soon. This is not about how agency firefighters feel about contract firefighters, and contract firefighters are nothing new. Seems to me like WAFF oughta get a better grip on the issue before going off and spitting on everyone in the assumption that no one cared. contracttoo.
12/13	OK. Some one asked a question regarding benefits for a fallen FIREFIGHTER that happened to be a contractor. Now, seeing I am the only one that responded to her. I am concerned, well not too concerned, just disappointed. Now I guarantee that if the firefighter would have been FED, BLM, or whatever federal or state agency, everyone on this site would have been all over that post trying to help her. But seeing that he was only a contractor, I was the only one. Personally I think that stinks. Its one thing to treat contractors differently, kind of like hazing, but for gods sake, we're all firefighters. We all deserve the same respect everyone else gets. When are people going to realize that we're all risking our lives. We're all working the same hours, we're all pounding the same ground. Until then, unfortunately, we're going to have the segregation we have here. Funny thing is, I used to be state. I never looked down upon contractors. I treated them with respect as I would anyone else. But I had never experienced what a contractor experiences every time they go into check in. >From the look that they receive when they go into finance and get rerouted ( with a smug look ) to equipment time. To the introduction of a Div Sup that was ex hotshot and dealing with that. Frankly people its getting old. Realize that you yourself are there to do a job. That job is to put out a fire. NOT to haze or treat people disrespectfully or even differently. I know there is a human resource specialist in camp, but thing is, they're Fed too. It has become a game of pretty much us and them. Weather people think it or not. It is. And I write this here due to the fact it applies here. If ya don't think so, how many replied to the fallen firefighter post??? Now, this is the last time I am going to post and the last time I am visiting the site. Sorry AB. I am upset at the fact that this isn't the first time it has happened. It happen about a year ago with that inmate that was lost and he left a 10 yr old daughter. No one but myself responded to that. I just cant believe that people are that ( for lack of a better word ) stuck up, that they segregate firefighters to that extent. People might ask who I am and what right I have to speak like this. I am a 6 year wildfire veteran. I also have 4 1/2 years of structure experience. I have played the game and because I love my job so much, I continue to play the same game every summer. And as a firefighter who has seen both sides ( contractor and state ), I have every right to tell people to wake up and leave the old ways behind. Accept the fact that contractors are here to stay regardless of how much you may dislike it or how poorly you treat us. Wake up to the fact that we are all risking our lives and we are all doing the same job. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that all who read this will be upset at the fact that a contractor raised there opinion on how screwed things are and take it out on contractors they meet next summer. Now I hope that doesn't happen, but it probably will. Everyone have a save summer next year. And to DRC, again I am terribly sorry about the loss. I hope for a speedy recovery for the family. WAFF Oh, my, WAFF, you're not the first person today to write in that you'll never post here again. (And the others were not  contractors.) Wonder if there's a dissatisfaction virus going around... Hmmmmmm, if it becomes an epidemic and no one posts, we might just have to shut 'er down. (tongue firmly in cheek) Ab.
12/13	Good Morning All, We've been working on the website and have added a Search capability which we're in the process of testing. We'd like your help on this. If you can think of any word or topic to search on, please enter it and see what you find. For example, if I search for "engine", a lot of theysaid archive pages come up on which engine has been mentioned. You can click on one archived page link and the archive will come up. Within that page, you can search for engine by going to "edit" in the menu bar and going down to "find" or simply hitting the control and F buttons simultaneously. More complex "boolian" searches can be done using "and" and "or" between multiple words. Directions for these are on the Search Page. Can you find anything we've "hidden" from the readers? Ab.
12/13	Jane, I've been asking around a little. You might try giving the Cle Elum Ranger District a call. They are a close knit group and some of the family members work there. I am sure they can direct you in the right direction. (509) 674-4411 R6FF
12/12	Where can I find a complete list of Heli-rappel crews (FS and BLM)? Only R6 seems to provide information about them on the web, so it is tough for those who don't live out West in the winter to get information.  Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, GK
12/12	Dear R6FF Thank you for your quick reply. Would you please offer my heartfelt condolences to any of the families involved. The hard work and sacrifices made by all concerned in the firefighting family are stupendous. If only the rest of the world could work together like the firefighting family we wouldn't need to be worried about anthrax, or anything else. Jane
12/12	Jane, I am friends with the Craven family. I myself do not have a copy. I can ask around for you. Or maybe talk with Tom's brother. I will try to look into it for you. R6FF
12/12	Hi All, I had intended to purchase the tape of the funeral for the four firefighters but got side tracked by back surgery. Called the station in Yakima but they don't have any left. As my granddaughter is a wildland firefighter, am very interested---and very touched---by the activities. Would anyone by chance have an extra tape of that funeral that I could purchase??? I really appreciate your time looking into this as I know that you are busy all the time. Thank you. Jane
12/11	I found a little info with the air tanker problems on the Portrero Fire. According to sources, CDF-MVU placed an order for air tankers and it was filled. Once up in the air and after their first couple loads, the pilots where told to return to their home base, that they where grounded. This came down from the CDF Regional Headquarters. The reason for this was due to CDF's contract with the company that provides the pilots. Apparently, the company contract had ended and the pilots where not being paid since no contract was in effect. According to one of the pilots, they told everyone involved that they would continue to fly for free until CDF and the contracting company could come the some agreement. Unfortunately, CDF could not let them fly due to liability issues of not having a current contract. Why the pilots were initially sent with no contract is unclear, except that the pilots respond without question. They were aware that their original contract had ended, but don't question contract issues when called to duty, since some arrangements may have already been done without their knowledge. According to one of the AT's, if they could have kept the tankers, the fire could have been picked up at probably 100 acres. It is not known if not having the tankers caused the structures to be lost. Overall, limited resources and the high winds definitely contributed. LagunaJim
12/11	Sad to say in the 21st century, its all about MONEY. CDF Southern Region should get all it deserves for closing fire season when there is less than adequate rainfall. Fire season is strictly a financial decision now, nothing to do with weather and climate like it used to be. In those times a minimum of 2" of rain was necessary to close fire season. The scientific basis of that criterion notwithstanding, it prevented situations like this. Anyone remember the Viejas fire last year. Same thing happened. So the first bit of rainfall happens and no tankers, no dozers, no crews on the weekends and lo and behold, winds and no resources to send. The air tanker debacle I believe had to do with the fact that those planes had not flown in six days and there is a maintenance issue that needs to be resolved before they can fly. The second day of the fire they were available but not needed. Kudos th the MVU firefighters for such great firefighting with limited resources. Fireball XL5
12/11	DRC There was an issue similar to yours in the season of 2000. A prison crew inmate was KIA and he left behind a 10 yr old girl I believe. The dept of corrections is not required to hold insurance on the inmates that fight fire. So to make a long story short, the girl was left with nothing. Now being in the private sector myself, I know what you mean with the whole segregation and being treated differently. As far as the benefits that should be owed, I wouldnt bank on anything from the government. I would check into the company he worked for. All companies are required to have some sort of accidental death coverage. If they didnt, I would get a lawyer. Hope it helped and sorry to hear about the loss. WAFF
12/11	People are notoriously poor at risk assessment. Reason seems to be left out ot the picture entirely. Some factors should be kept in mind. 1) San Diego (MVU is "Monte Vista Ranger Unit, a CDF Ranger Unit - for those who did not understand that from Matt's posting) is normally out of fire season by about the end of November. 2) This year has been only slightly drier than average for the date, and the southern part of the state has had an unusually low fire incidence all year. 3) Society benefits when money spent to reduce loss is the same as or lower than the anticipated loss - Key word: "anticipated". It is unfair to fault decision makers after the fact when the loss is known. 4)In all probability the decision to end fire season and reduce staffing was the right one even in retrospect. Very likely the money saved is greater than the loss that would have been prevented had the money been spent. In all probability the home would have been lost anyway, and many thousands of taxpayer dollars were saved via reduction of aircraft contracts and staffing. 5) I don't know if California's budget picture had anything to do with the decision to end fire season, but in all probability it didn't. If it did, then someone fails in risk assessment. Most readers of this site understand some or all of this, even if only intuitively. Michael
12/11	Incident Name: Bell CDF-MVU started @1045 hrs. on Saturday. I believe the Ranger unit had 7 type 3 engines covered. Normal for them would be 18-26 type 3 engines during fire season. MVU closed the season Dec. 3. Cleveland N.F. had five type 3 covered. CNF provided 2 engines in the initial CDF dispatch, and quickly a strike team was ordered from CNF which included a FWS engine most on a call back. The winds felt more like in the 30 MPH range. Additional resources included strike teams of type 1 and 3 from RRU, BDU, BDF, ORC, San Diego City, North County, Heartland. ANF provided engine coverage on the Cleveland N.F. Newspaper today stated controlled at 1200 acres. How quickly we all forget last January's Viejas Fire over 10,000 acres. Months of dry weather, strong Santa Ana winds, budget driven fire season closure. Rhino
12/11	The fire that USFS FEO heard the rumor about was the Portrero Fire. A fire began about 40 miles southeast of San Diego. A heater in a home caught fire about 11 a.m. Saturday. Fire was carried outside. Fed by strong 50 mph winds, it quickly became a fast moving brush fire and burned at least 500 acres. (That's CDF - MVU jurisdiction.) The small town of Potrero near the Mexican border was partially evacuated. Two homes and some other structures burned. I heard it was up to 900 acres Sunday. If you remember, CDF closed fire season some time ago, although knowing Santa Ana wind season was approaching. News channels in San Diego slammed them for not having enough engines staffed. Budget in CA is hurting following 9/11 and the energy crunch. Long response times (up to 2.5 hr, were there dispatch problems too?) resulted in the loss of structures. An attorney was among those who lost a structure and criticizes CDF for not being ready for the wind event it anticipated. CDF claims it's not MVU's fault. Spin: MVU upstaffed engines, 24 hr coverage in the event of a fire, things could have been much worse. Downside: CDF did not staff the entire unit, aircraft, etc. I don't know why the air tanker got turned around and grounded after one drop at the beginning of the fire. I heard it was a contract issue -- but don't know... Contract- because the season was over already? Could it have been a safety issue? Does anyone know? Regardless, people were pissed. There has got to be some online news about the fire, it was all over the 6 news networks down here. Matt PS, checked some of your news finding sites on the links page, ab, and here are some links: www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/1298201p-1366596c.html www.nctimes.com/news/2001/20011210/54941.html Hmmmmmmm, one CDF spokesperson said "3 ATs, 3 helos and about 500 firefighters were working to surround the fire". Maybe the air support problems were early on...
12/10	Mellie has sent in this summary of points from Saturday night's chat with the FWFSA president. She says thanks to the prez for answering our questions. Thanks to the prez for his excellent work on behalf of wildland firefighters. Thanks to Bear for the lovely pointsettia decorations in the chat room. Q: What are the hottest issues FWFSA is dealing with? A: Legislation for federal wildland firefighters. We're having a hard time getting a complete buy-in for the new bill that proposes 1) portal-to-portal pay and 2) that HP (hazard pay) be included as basic pay for retirement annuity calculations. There's a new administration and following Sept 11, Congress looks at everything differently. Q: Is the version of the bill already created and in Congress' hands? A: Yes, we (FWFSA) initially create the bill. The draft of the bill has been in the Congressionals' hands for some time. I sent in some final changes via a phone call to a staffer last week. Regarding the current bill, the portal-to-portal part of the bill is costing more than previously thought because more firefighters are working now. We expect it will cost about 86 million a year and that raises a flag to Congress. The second part of the bill, HP inclusion as basic pay for retirement annuity calcs, costs less than 2 million a year and is probably acceptable. Q: What congressperson are you dealing with and what is the process? A: FWFSA is working with Congressman Pombo's office. He introduced and championed the last bill that eliminated the overtime pay cap. Most people who were affected by the pay cap elimination bill don't even realize that FWFSA wrote it, had it introduced, worked to let Congressionals know about it, testified before Congress and pushed until it became law. Many think the Agency did it. You can thank the members of FWFSA. Q: How often do you go to Washington and what is the reception at the WO or do you even visit them? A: I make one to two trips per year to DC, every March for the Firefighter's Legislative Conference and periodically other times to testify, etc. The WO is quite interested in our doings. They have been in the audience when we testify to Congress, but I don't visit the WO. I have met with the ex Secretary of Interior, the FEMA director, with OPM and visited more than 100 congressional offices over the years. Q: How can the average firefighter make a difference? A: The best thing you can do is offer your personal time. Become a member of FWFSA, get with your chapter director and see how your skills will work best for us. We're having a convention in Sacramento on Dec 15. The convention info is at the FWFSA website (link at the left top of the theysaid page). We're reviewing issues and progress, entertaining any resolutions and electing officers. Q: Is it open to all? A: It is open to all FWFSA members. Q: Is FWFSA only for R5 or is it national? A: It's a national organization and can include employees of BLM, BIA, NPS, FWS and USFS. Q: How many subscribe to FWFSA and what ratios are from each of those agencies? A: I think there are about 230 members, 90% of which are USFS from R5. I say again, you can thank them for getting the first bill through that eliminated the overtime pay cap. Q: Is anything being done to add new members from other regions? If not, why not? A: The current strategy for out-of-region recruitment, aside from word of mouth and the web page, is that I go to workshops and explain what FWFSA is. Mostly these are hot shot workshops, both regional and national. Q: I sent in all my stuff and deductions are being taken out, but I haven't received anything back. Should I do anything else? A: Sorry for the delay on the information. We need help providing better service. At FWFSA we're all volunteers and firefighters. Q: Ab asked: We've had the FWFSA link up on theysaid for about a year and the recurrent comment is the lack of response from your website. Do you have any solution to that? A: During fire season things are tough. Firefighters who run FWFSA are out fighting fire. We need someone to help out who is not gone so much. We will discuss that at this week's board meeting.

12/10	My 12-year-old's father was killed fighting fires in Idaho this summer. I have spoken with the National Fallen Firefighters' Foundation about future help with college and they said that because Doug was on contract, they would not be able to help my son. I don't understand why there is no help for families of contract firefighters. Is there anyone out there that has been through this before who can explain to me why there isn't a Foundation for Fallen Wildland firefighters who are on contract? Why does the government treat them so different? DRC
12/10	The reason that you can not get on any of the Dept. of Interior web sites is because the US District Court ordered the DOI to shut down all internet services due to a lawsuit involving the security of data involved with Indian Trust Sites. Service was supposed to be restored last Friday, but as of Monday night it was still down. Yes, this does mean that Quickhire and all other BLM, BIA,and other DOI branches internet sites are down. Hopefully, it will all be cleared up soon. On another note. I have some PDF recruitment notices for the Elko BLM Fire program that I am going to be putting on the web in the next couple days. I will post links on "They Said" to each notice after I upload them. The recruitment notices are for Elko Helitack and the Ruby Mountain Hotshots, and the positions are seasonal and will be filled using Quickhire. Dylan Danny put up a link on 12/07 to an article that explains why the sites were shut down. It's good to hear they'll likely be back up soon. Ab.
12/10	anyone have an idea when the fed sites will be back up? later eric I'd like to know the answer to that, too. It is possible to get some info from the FS website - especially the links page can get you to some regional sit reports, at least those that are being updated. Hey you Boise lurkers and readers, can you fill us in? Ab.
12/10	USFS FEO, Pierce has built a M 62, cloned off of a Boise Mobile engine. It is a nearly exact copy, with a few refinements. R5 Fleet accepted Pierce as a supplier of M62s, so both BME and Pierce will handle the buildup. I saw and drove the Pierce prototype at the Regional Fire Equipment Meeting in Reno last month. Nice truck. Having two suppliers will definitely speed the MEL buildup. NZ Capt.
12/10	To answer USFS FEO's question, I was up at the FireTec Reno Show and got it from the Pierce Rep at the Convention Center. Pierce got the contract because they beat the price that the other guys wanted for the 2WD Model 62 and 4WD Model 63. The Model 62 was going for $172K and the FS placed an order of 55 new engines for this year, and another 50+ engines for next year, of which Pierce will be delivering the first 55 around Fire Season. He also informed me that part of the reason for the mass purchase was that there was a rapid push to remove the Model 42's from service. MOC4546
12/10	'Lo all. Thanks for the input on hand crew diff's. I wanted to relate a story about Wildland vs struct. It may not settle any debate but it does address the "should we stand by and watch" question. One of my partners had an experience a few years ago. He was operating a tractor plow on a large fire putting in his line when he came out of the brush and smoke into a yard. The house was in the middle of the woods and except for the fact that the back porch had already caught fire, was pretty defensible. He wanted to save the house, but what to do??? Stop and use the garden hose and let the fire run??? This ranger lowered his blade and tore the porch off the house. We kid him about it now and then but really, how clever!!!!! We usually don't have scba, or bunker gear, or other equip for structure defense, but we all should have our most important tool, our wit. I hate blanket statements "We never make entry, We always do this or that". I agree with the earlier post that said we weigh the gains vs risks & make a plan based on this. Who knows what we would do when the time comes, all I hope is that I use my head and chose my course wisely. Be safe, Be well. Flash in Florida
12/09	Jim, Give FEO a break. He/she does not need to go to work for some other agency. I am proud to have FEO in Forest Service. It's people like this who help the agency progress and give their employees a better work place. I would bet, that his/her crew is one of the most trained crews on the forest. If you can't understand what we have been writing about for the past few weeks, then you will never understand. Its comments like "go work elsewhere" that get me real mad. This is the exact reason that we are losing quality people to other agencies. What do the qualifications you mention have to do with IA anyway? Even if FEOs comments were from a second or third year seasonal, you should still respect those comments, listen to what they have to say and have a civil debate about it, instead of saying you should go work for another agency. USFS FEO, to this R-5er, your comments and commitment to the Forest Service is shining through, keep up the good work and as you already know you're not the only one who has the same views and commitment to change and progression. I may be missing the point from Jim, but telling a fellow employee who is raising important issues regarding IA on the interface to work for another agency gets me fired up. AnR-5er
12/09	Hi All Last year there was talk of Pierce taking over some or all of the production of the Model 62 from BME, anybody heard anymore about this? This issue of non-wildland fire is starting to turn into a yes we do, no we don't. I had no idea it was so controversial. Others feel free to continue. I'm happy to read what your thoughts are, but I've said enough. So this is the last from me (unless I think of something else :-). Please stop directing questions specifically at me. I'm starting to feel like a theysaid hog. There are others who can answer some of this and it's hard for me not to respond to a question directed at me. So, Jim your solutions: A. Join a Municipal FD Starting to look into it, solves my problem as long as I keep my recreation activities off the National Forests. B. Work for CDF Also starting to look into it, again solves my problem but is basically sticking my head in the sand C. Contract fire suppression to the State Wouldn't save money. Federal law requires the same coverage and CDF costs more, but if they did this, I guess CDF would have to hire a bunch of people, hmmm see B. D. Convert those Forests to National Parks Ex president Clinton was working on this. It didn't go over so well. Take a drive through some of the communities near the places he designated National Monuments. How much timber is harvested from those forests? Not much, a little salvage and that is being reduced too. Are those forests primarily recreation forests? Yes, they are not allowed to do much else. Have you ever been on a shot crew, helitack crew, or even a hand crew? Are you qualified as a crew boss or Division Group Sup? I don't see what it matters for this discussion but, yes, I am a crewboss and strike team trainee, and I have worked crews as well as engines, no shots or helitack. This topic primarily is related to initial attack resources (engines, patrols) so I don't get the connection. Hey -- to get something else going, I heard CDF had a fire yesterday and grounded all their tankers over contracts while structures were lost. Anyone have any further information? USFS FEO
12/09	hello all ! its been sometime since i have posted on here. no one told me teenagers could make ones life so fun ! i have been trying to keep up with the comments here. i could have sworn i saw this debate about fed agencies responding to structural fires a while back. in my humble opinion, anyone who is employed to fight wildland fire should have at least basic structural fire training. why? because during the course of a wildland fire, a structure could be involved. you may have structural engines there. but if its a life and death situation, and the structural folks just do not have the manpower to handle it, do you just say " well we are not trained? ". that is unacceptable. as for ppe, proper gear can be purchased and should be purchased for wildland engine folks.  basic structural fire training should be done once a year. training can be accomplished by working with the career or volunteer fire departments in your area. this also fosters a good relationship with those departments and you get to know and understand what they do and the same for them. you get to know how they do things. you can also get them to understand how wildland fire fighters do things. cross training is the way of the future. just the same as for the structural fire fighters.  where would the structural folks be if they didnt get their ems training? most emergency calls nowadays are ems related. so now most structural departments require ems training. its called progressing with the future. and this brings me to my next subject. all wildland fire fighters should have ems training. the need for this speaks for itself. most of the fed folks would be open to different types training and responsibilities. this directive has to come from above. the policy makers. sooner or later they will see the light and realize that wildland fire is more then just more then trees, brush and so on. there are too many structures being built in the wild. the interface problem is a growing problem and is spreading faster then most agencies can handle. the problems of the past should be a lesson and a reminder that we need to grow with the interface problem. lets face the problem head on and be proactive. end the whining and bitching and work together as state and fed agencies. i have said it before, if we all put our heads together we can come up with a solution to make this work. but, we need to work together ! i am not the most articulate of writers nor am i an expert on this, but the interface is a passion of mine and i feel very stong about this. i am sure i will get yelled at by some but thats why this forum is so great because there are so many people on here that do care about the wildland community.  ab,thanks again for creating this. BC Davis You're welcome, BC. Ab.
12/09	USFS FEO It seems to me the answer to your problem is; A. Join a Municipal FD B. Work for CDF C. Contract fire suppression to the State D. Convert those Forests to National Parks. How much timber is harvested from those forests? Are those forests primarily recreation forests? Questions for you that may help me understand some of the things you are writing about. See I'm an old fat guy and it takes me awhile to comprehend the R5 whine (btw, I spent my early career on the Sequoia and Sierra NF). Have you ever been on a shot crew, helitack crew, or even a hand crew? Are you qualified as a crew boss or Division Group Sup? Jim
12/08	There's been a request for a party in firechat tonight at 2100 Pacific Time (9PM). Come on down! Ab.
12/08	I was just responding to the earlier post that made it sound so simple, "stay within agency policy and you will be fine", because I don't believe you will. At the very least, the morality of standing by will follow you until you die. It might look paranoid to you, but my point was that in our current situation there is no acceptable choice. I don't think losing one of your crew is acceptable, but to the public "firefighters" standing around while people died would be more unacceptable. While an exterior attack is not necessarily the most efficient method of suppressing a structure fire, it is better than nothing and it is safer for the crew. However it is not an option if the building is occupied because you will very likely speed the process of killing those inside and if they have not exited the building when you get there they probably can't do so alone. Again we are left with two choices: standby and protect the trees or make an interior attack. And basically we are left with two options 1). follow agency policy and be partially responsible for the death of a member of the public and the repercussions of that or 2). break agency policy possibly saving a life, but knowing that any injury or death of your crew will be blamed on you since it goes against agency policy. I'm just pointing out that the agency policy needs to be reviewed to bring it into the present. We don't just fight "forest fires" anymore. We are putting policy decisions on people who's jobs should only require the proper application of tactics -- not politics and morality -- while those at the top protect themselves behind an outdated policy. It also prevents proper support to those on the ground. I do know some forests are dealing with this situation more openly than others. The four southern forests taking a lead in this and the Model 62's can provide initial attack of structures at least enough to support a rescue.  I know where I am we get dispatched for specific things (medical aid, vehicle fire etc) rather than the euphemistic "request for aid" described by others. So I guess we are ahead of them but that is still a forest by forest and district by district thing. We are a National organization and it seems like those at the top don't know what we "really" do. So to sum up what I meant:  NO, placing your crew at risk is not acceptable to me, but neither is asking me to stand around while people die. So until the "responsible" jurisdictions start putting fire stations on the forest, I don't see any other choice than for the federal agencies to accept additional duties. USFS FEO
12/08	The Jobs  Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Ab.
12/08	The question was "why go inside a structure fire when it can be attacked from the outside?". Reword it to ask why a wildland firefighter attacks a hot section of line instead of attacking from the outside (indirect). Use the KISS principle when looking at fire and use the same mental process on both so you don't get too confused. After 33 years, not always repeating the same year again, I like to keep it simple. Resources and capabilities, personal and organizational, determine how you handle and event. I once had a BC from the City of San Francisco ask me how wildland firefighters could even deal with running major fires. I asked him how he dealt with major high rise fires. The principles are the same, you hold the fire to the least size that you can based on resources, capabilities,