"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
DECEMBER 2001
| DATE |
|
| 12/31 |
Ab, I just heard through the grapevine the following info.
The GS-8 Fire Engine Captain position is alive and well in other
areas....
NATIONWIDE!!! A reliable source told me that a Forest in Region 9
(and
possibly also in region 3) are flying two of their Engine Foreman
positions
under the approved National PD as a GS-8 Engine Captains.
It has always made me wonder why we had approved NATIONAL position
descriptions at the GS-8 level and they could only be used in California
(as
stated in the ASAP vacancy announcement process).
I guess we are progressing from technicians to professional wildland
firefighters.
Other Region Supporter |
| 12/31 |
Ab, the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) IAFF Local
F-262 has updated their web page. Lots of great info on what the
association is, their goals, and pending legislative action. A great site
for all Federal Wildland Firefighters throughout the United States. Also
links for Federal wildland firefighters to join. Firefighters from ALL 50
states are encouraged to join.
www.fwfsa.org
FWFSA Member |
| 12/31 |
Ab, attached is the link for the 2002 Special Salary Rate approved for
employees in the 0462 series in Southern California. This rate only
applies to employees of the USDA and USDI under the 0462 series in the
following counties: LA, Monterey, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, San
Diego, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, and Ventura.
While this is a significant pay raise, it probably will only prove to be a
small speed bump in the problem of retaining and recruiting wildland
firefighters in our area. The agency had requested a 30% increase over the
national BASE GS pay scale, but received less when it went through all the
hoops. Prior to this raise, employees were already being paid under a
special salary rate or a locality adjustment (14-16% over the BASE GS
rate). The initial raise took place in Pay Period 24 and the new table
goes into effect on Pay Period 1.
Here is the link:
Look for table 0256 ---
www.opm.gov/oca/02tables/SSR/asc/BBS_all.txt
SoCalCapt |
| 12/31 |
My name is Michael and I was one of New Jersey's firefighters on the Rex
Creek assignment. I was wondering if there are any photos of that fire. If
so can you send them to me?
Thank you,
Michael
e-mail: FIREFIGHTER18472@AOL.COM
Hi Michael,
Mellie did a page of links to fires
of summer 2001. Most are CA, but there are some Oregon and Washington
fires. The link to the Rex Creek fire site is on there. Readers, let me
remind you that you can now use the SearchWLF facility here at
wildlandfire.com, link at the top of each page. Michael, you can enter
"rex" or "rex and creek" and you will find the summer
fires page with a link to photos. As far as downloading them onto your
computer, find the thumbnail, click on it for the larger version, if
available. When the large photo is on your screen, right mouse click and
choose "save image as". Name it and tell your computer what
folder you want to save it to. Happy browsing.
Readers, if anyone has additional pics of that fire, please send 'em in.
Ab. |
| 12/31 |
Hello there.
I understand that the difference between a burnout and a backfire is
that a backfire is set to influence the main fire's direction. A burnout
just burns out unspent fuel between the line and the main fire. Seen some
of those. In my experience they were done indirect, way back from the main
fire. As you may have guessed I don't have enough summers fighting fire to
have participated in a big backfire.
Thinking over my summer. Wondering if any of you have some backfire
wisdom to share. Or burnout stories. I think a lot of us need that
experience.
Aside from summer fire, how can I learn more (and faster) about how
fire actually behaves? I'd be willing to travel to someplace that has an
active fuels program or even some on the ground hands-on fire behavior.
One other thing. I was surprised at was how long leaves stay on trees
that have been in a burnout. I've been watching one spot on a 1999 CA fire
and the oaks still haven't dropped their brown leaves. Snow and windstorms
- they cling to dead trees. Can't let go.
Wag Dodge's (sp?) fire at Mann Gulch wasn't a burnout or a backfire was
it? Just a small fire to let him survive.
Done my first summer
- does everyone think about fire this much afterwards?
|
| 12/31 |
I have a question,
Has anybody sent in there new application for the up coming fire
season, if so have you got a confirmation letter back yet and was the
process easier this year rather then last.
Hope everybody has a great New Year and AB, I hope your team won...
An-R5er
It didn't. <grumble><grumble> Ab. |
| 12/31 |
Hallo!
We are a fire-brigade from neulengbach in austria. We wish you and your
firefighters a happy new-year 2002.
Best greetings
Freiwillige Feuerwehr Neulengbach-Stadt
Wienerstrasse 201
A-3040 Neulengbach
ff.neulengbach@utanet.at
Happy New Year to you and your crew too. Ab. |
| 12/31 |
Has anyone heard details about a raise of almost 30% for Forest Service
Fire employees as of Jan. 1st, 2002? Specifically in Region 5 South Ops.
Thanks and Happy New Year everyone!
Seasonal Ground Pounder |
| 12/30 |
Do, de do, de dum, de dum, de dum. Ab
watchin' football... |
| 12/29 |
I updated the Jobs
Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series
0462 and 0455
yesterday. Ab. |
| 12/28 |
John C,
CASCO Industries in Pasadena carries all types of Gear for Wildland, as
well as Structural. The TX Forestry Service also carries a full line of
gear that is available to VFD's and FF's across the state. Casco's number
is 800/397-0930. Forestry Service is 936/639-8130 in Lufkin.
Later,
Keith |
| 12/28 |
The NICC Situation Reports are now available on the Forest Service
website,
along with the IMT and Buying Team rotation lists. There is still no sure
word on when the NIFC site will be back up, so this provides folks access
to the Sit report. Current reports are weekly - newest one posted today.
Also, the Forest Service electronic hiring site began accepting
applications on 12/03.
Sit reports: www.fs.fed.us/fire/fire_new
FS hiring site: www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap
Happy New Year.
RD
Thanks, RD. Ab. |
| 12/28 |
From Firescribe, a link to more info on the DOI's computer shutdown:
Indian Country Times (12/28/01)
Computer Shutdown
Misinterpreted by Interior
Ab sez, yeah, let's do a little of the blame game here... |
| 12/28 |
We make controversy OK, but can we put down the Aussie fires?
Maybe this time, we get a chance.
ABC News - Row over offer of international help to fight NSW bushfires www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-28dec2001-57.htm
The Fire Brigade Employees Union is urging the New South Wales Government
to lease special super scooper aircraft from Canada to help fight the
bushfires across the state, as most of them burn out of control.
JA |
| 12/28 |
New South Wales Fire Brigades Link:
www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/
Danny |
| 12/28 |
Can u refer me to someone in Houston TX area who handles wildland
NFPA1977 compliant jackets, styles 3300BASE & 4400SB?
Thank You,
John C |
| 12/27 |
Thanks for the info, Everyone. Sometimes this website feels like my
anchor, my home away from home! I talked with the rental property
management about the lack of smoke detectors before I left and they're
going to check into it.
Hey Guys and Gals. I'm sorry I didn't get in touch with some of you --
VG in Bend and Lasagna in southern OR. Coulda kicked myself when I
realized I didn't have phone numbers along... SmokeTrails, I didn't get
your forwarded message until I got home. It would have been fun to
tie in. Hope you're still enjoying the snow. Wow, 12' along the highway
near Crater Lake and 18' at the lodge which is inaccessible. White
Christmas there for sure!
I hope All of You are having a good break, if you're getting one.
Sometimes it seems like vacation is just waaaay too short!
Wow, big fires in Australia! Take care you Aussies!
Mellie |
| 12/26 |
Quincy,
The FEO, AKA: Engineer, Assistant Module Leader, is primarily a
supervisory position. Although the title is Engineer, the Assistant
Engineer AFEO, is the primary driver. Your responsibility is to maintain
the apparatus (mechanical, fire equipment readiness, inventory, etc.)
maintain the station and to supervise the crew in the absence of the
captain/module leader. You may only actually drive the engine a couple
days a week.
Specific duties are at the discretion of the particular station/forest
you work for. I can only speak from my experiences on the Los Padres and
Sequoia. If the captain takes a single resource fire assignment (SRA), you
cover the engine as the acting captain until their return, often working
your days off. You are responsible for the engine, fire equipment and
personnel record keeping, etc.
Some captains dont like to leave their engineers in charge and insist
that they go on all strike team/single engine resource orders, a matter of
trust if you will. My old captain was very fair and would alternate SRA's
between the engineer, Asst or any qualified crewmember. Again it depends
on the captain/forest policy.
A "Good FEO" is someone who is a very experienced
firefighter, is a qualified Engine Boss, better if you are a Strike Team
Leader qualified or trainee. Has good mechanical knowledge of the engine,
good interpersonal skills, and a strong, safe work ethic.
Southern California has a lot of urban interface and some wicked fire
conditions, you may find your engine alone in a firestorm and you must be
able to act, and act safely.
I know this does not encompass all of the duties or responsibilities,
but I thought I would give you my take on it.
A Former FEO,
Sting |
| 12/26 |
Quincy,
Here is alittle about the FEO positions in R-5. The FEO acts as the
Captain for two days out the week, the other three he acts as the
engineer. You would work 5 days a week and usually work on the weekends,
due to high volume of calls on the weekends. If you search the archeives
(it might be the begining of this month or the end of Nov.) and read the
post from USFS FEO, you will get an idea of the volume of calls and the
variety of calls you will face in R-5.
That is just a bit of what the FEO does on my forest. If your looking
for lots of action and a wide variety of calls, take the position. I would
suggest brushing up on your medical training, haz.mat., LPG training, and
most of all any training you have had on structure protection and fighting
fire in the urban-interface.
It's very challenging and alot of responsiblitiy. You would have a fun
time.
An-R5er |
| 12/26 |
Hello friends,
We are a volunteer german fire task force (consisting of both paid and
volunteer FF).
We plan on going down to greece this year again to help them fighting
the devostating wildfires in their country.
Because we are still not under a gov budget we need help getting our
PPE. The only useful PPE for wildland comes from the USA and we`d have to
pay much money for customs if we order on the normal way. That``s why we
post this request on your page.
If anybody of you know something about getting surplus PPE for
wildfires, especially
- shirts
- pants
- goggles
- gloves
- helmets
- webgear
- shelters
I`d be more than happy if you email me at Mausi112@aol.com. Please send
anything according this request to get in contact about the postage and so
on!
Thank you very much!
Yours Detlef "Mausi" Maushake
German Wildfire Task Force |
| 12/26 |
From Firescribe:
www.eps.gov/spg/USDA/FS/0276/R1-5-02-6/SynopsisP.html
For fire contractors in the Northwest and Rockies ...... |
| 12/26 |
Hi All
hopefully everybody had a wonderful Christmas, and will have a great
New Year.
For the Australian Bush Fires (Australian for Wildland) check out the
main paper in Sydney at
www.smh.com.au/news/0112/27/national/national1.html
www.smh.com.au/news/0112/27/national/index.html
My brother wasn't able to make it home to the parents for Christmas due
to the roads (freeways and highways) between his house and Mum and Dads
closed due to smoke.
Damn I should have picked this year to go back and visit the parents.
Cheers all
Basque
Lotsa other Aussie fire news links now on the WLF
News Page. Ab. |
| 12/26 |
Hi, i wrote in last week requesting info on the position of feo in
region 5 requesting their duties schedules and what the job is like. i am
considering a move from the east coast to calif to take the job but i
wanted some independent opinions on it and no one has answered. can you
point me in the right direction? thanks.
Quincy |
| 12/26 |
Looks like they may have an arsonist running about down-under. News is
dated tomorrow from The Sydney Morning Herald so you can see 'They Said'
has the news before it happens....that is unless you are on the other side
of the world.
www.smh.com.au/
Hickman |
| 12/26 |
For more info on australian fires try www.abc.net.au/news
for the latest news. Larst report was so 140 homes lost. and winds of
80kmh ! and then try clicking on rural at the top and then news on the
drop down menu for some more info and photos from a 24 000 ha fire on the
20th December.
Stay safe
West Aussie FCO
Thanks for the information, West Aussie FCO. Ab. |
| 12/26 |
Yes Mellie, smoke alarms or fire detectors are required under Oregon Law
in a business setting such as a resort and if I was you I would call the
local state fire marshall or fire district office and complain as it may
save someone's life.
Medford |
| 12/26 |
News from Down Under
www.smh.com.au/index.html
Hope all had a Safe and Merry Christmas and to all of you may you have
an even Safer and Happier New Year..
Hickman |
| 12/26 |
God Bless You Guys for trying...(An-R5er & Ab(s))
Yeah, I just recently upgraded to AOL high speed (cable modem) and last
night my dial up account was canceled, but my high speed one was never
opened... So I had to sort things out with AOL, all the while my e-mail
account was killed. SORRY...
But everything is back up and running smoothly, so my e-mail should be
good to go. In case it was lost or something, it is FM1Rommel@aol.com.
THANKS SO MUCH!
On an URBAN INTERFACE NOTE...
Are trailers as prevalent out west as they are in the South East? Cause we
lost two on Monday in part to trailer #1 setting the grass on fire and
burning to trailer #2. Well, I guess for anyone that doesn't deal with
them regularly; in an urban interface fire, be warned. Trailers burn hot
and fast and it doesn't require much at all to set them ablaze. BE SAFE!
Merry Christmas everyone!
-Douglas |
| 12/25 |
Hi All,
Merry Christmas and what a fine day it has been! I hope ya'll are
enjoying family and friends as much as I am. Love to all of you!
I have a question. I'm in Oregon for the holidays, near Mt Bachelor.
Can anyone tell me if smoke alarms are required (or not) in rental
properties in OR? I'm totally blown away that there are no smoke alarms or
fire extinguishers in this resort cabin. I know Oregon believes in less
government, but fire safety seems rudimentary to me. There are fireplace
and sauna, fake Christmas trees of mineature size with lights, other
amenities and about 20 stuffed bears!... All are fire hazards... Whatsup
with that?
Mellie |
| 12/25 |
Australian Fires!
I heard on the BBC this morning that SE by Sydney is making a major
run. Any data out there?
rlhn
I hope they're being safe. Ab. |
| 12/25 |
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ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=--=CHRISTMAS=--=MERRY=-
ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
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ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø ø¤º°`°º¤ø
From the Abs at wildlandfire.com |
| 12/25 |
....MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and to all a
HAPPY and SAFE NEW YEAR!!!!!!!
From "Aircraft Dispatch" in R-3. |
| 12/25 |
>From my family to yours: Merry Christmas to all!!!
Hoping everyone has a wonderful day. To those of you that have to work
protecting the lives and property of the community you serve, please be
careful and stay safe.
Doorsmaurer |
| 12/25 |
Hey Ab
Just drinken beer reading your site and saw douglas situation. I work
for the Idaho city Hotshots. We are always looking for good people. If any
one is wanting to work for a hotshot crew, give us a call. any how happy
holidays
E |
| 12/25 |
Merry Christmas to all.
As we look back over the year, we have lost some of our family members,
so lets keep their families in our hearts, prayers and thoughts this day.
To all of you out there Merry Christmas from my family and myself.
Although alot of us have never met, you are still the greatest family in
the world. There are many families, espically out west who owe their being
able to have Christmas at home to you firefighters and support personnel.
All of you have a great day. It is 80 degrees here in Florida. I guess I
can stop standing outside waiting for the snow.
Ranger |
| 12/24 |
Any of you Region 6 folks who might know WA-DNR's Roger Autry... he's
been promoted from Unit Forester (FMO) into the Headquarters Building as a
Fuels and Fire Behavior Specialist in the Resource Protection division. He
spent nearly 30 years on the line, watching out for his own crews and
others as DIVS and most recently carded as FBAN.
Roger's experience and wisdom on the line will be missed. Hopefully
we'll get to see him at some of the big shows.
BSL |
| 12/24 |
Douglas,
I've been trying to e-mail some information to you, but I'm having
problems with your e-mail address. Is this your correct address or has it
changed? I'm getting a message saying you don't exist as a member with
AOL. Please repost or maybe one of the abs could help me out.
An-R5er
We get the same message when using another of his aol addresses. Ab. |
| 12/24 |
Hey Gang,
Seems when you get into management, you don't have as much time to
"play" on the computer. It's been a real long time since I've
seen the likes of "They Said". Miss you guys lots. Hope everyone
has a safe and happy Holiday season.
For the statement about the sciene on the go PDA downloads, I highly
recommend the fire liner and fire away programs. Been playing with the
"behave" style of Fire Away, and really like it. Matter of fact,
I down loaded it one morning last summer, and within 30 minutes, I was
punch'in in the numbers on a 30 acre fire in my district. It was great to
simply add the information to the fire report. Although, for those who
have to type out on the DI 1202 form, not too friendly.
Hope to have more time this next year to contribute more. Best of luck
for all!!
AZ Trailblazer |
| 12/24 |
AB-
Here is a link to software that loads onto Palm devices. Has several
different programs available.
www.scienceonthego.com
I'm looking to try it as a training supplement for students at work.
Take care
"Another CDF BC" |
| 12/24 |
To all,
Have a Merry Christmas and A Happy New
Year...
An-R5er |
| 12/24 |
Hey guys!
Posted on here a few times before and now I need some help. I realize
this is the hiring time for seasonals, and I am really hurting as far as
trying to get squared away. I live on the East coast and there is no where
for me to go to get seasonal employment. The Form C thing hasn't gotten me
a reply for some reason the online BLM thing back in the day didn't
work... If anyone out there has like "insiders" information
(application) on ANY crews hiring please drop me an e-mail.
THANKS SO MUCH
Douglas
(e-mail@ FM1Rommel@aol.com) |
| 12/24 |
Glad to see you posted the link for the Wildfire Safety Summit at MSO
last month. I haven't gone through the whole thing yet, but I've
especially enjoyed reading the report by Lark McDonald about the course
from MCSolutions.
There were a lot of good things that came out of the Tri-Data studies,
and one of the best things was this Fireline Leadership course. Oddly
enough, it had a lot to do with the first year of the Great Northern Fire
Crew out of Missoula this year. This crew is structured like a hotshot
crew, but they're not a hotshot crew. They're actually a Type 2 crew, but
they're not like other Type 2 crews. The 2001 season was their first
season, and their story's online at www.fs.fed.us/r1/nfp/crew
This crew is a great success story for the fire agencies, for training,
and for firefighter recruitment. It's also a truly fine opportunity for
people who want to get into firefighting in a serious professional way,
people who don't have any background. This crew took firefighter safety
and fireline leadership to a new level this year, based partly on what
Lark McDonald (et al) did with the fireline leadership concept, and mostly
on what crew supe Bill Miller and the other overhead were committed to and
what they did this season. What started out as a plan to improve diversity
hiring in Region 1 has become a model for crew training, firefighter
safety, and personnel recruitment. Check it out.
R1gal |
| 12/23 |
Hey All,
Cruise through wildlandfire.com. Still changing.... Stay tuned.
Ab. |
| 12/23 |
A little more history on Bill Cadola and the Type 1 Teams. R5 formed its
first Type 1 Teams in 1973 I'm fairly certain. There were six. That first
year I think Bill (who worked on the Klamath) was on the first Team 4
(Bill Howard's team) as a line boss and the next year as a deputy fire
boss. He eventually moved up the chain of command but I'm not sure what
years he was IC. He was a great guy and capable with a good sense of
humor. Other guys from the Klamath on that team were Harry Taylor and Gil
Davies. That was an era much like today with lots of changes including
more women on crews and a no alcohol policy.
NorCal Tom |
| 12/23 |
The Proceedings from the IAWF Wildfire Safety Summit that was held in
Missoula in November 2001 is available on the Web at: www.umt.edu/ccesp/wfs/proceedings.htm
Lots of good papers by a collection of international speakers.
Dick Mangan |
| 12/23 |
Hi All,
This Ab is just checking in. No messages this morning. As most of you,
I am also "on vacation" but continue to post the board while
away from home. Hope you're all having fun and enjoying your family and
friends. We each have much to be thankful for.
Ab. |
| 12/22 |
From Firescribe:
Campers
admit to Leroux Fire in AZ. See what their plea bargain entails. |
| 12/22 |
Yes, it is a frustrating situation with the DOI stuff -- especially so,
being on the DOI side. As for the one post I read that said that DOI
employees weren't even allowed to use their home computers to send out
info -- hadn't heard that one -- but even if it was true, I'd have a
couple words in response: BEE-ESS.
However, when I went to post this to Ab, noticed that the e-mail link on
"They Said" wasn't there on my home computer -- maybe big
brother DOI is a little more powerful than I had given them credit for!!
Anyhow, will keep people up-to-date as much as possible (or as much as I
know -- which is about the same as everyone outside DOI -- zilch) --
I finally just gave up, used what little leave I do have and went home.
Cache Queen
OK, the email button goes back, hopefully today. We'd hate for that
rumor to gain any credence. We also feel for you who are suffering the
pains of internet withdrawal. Ab. |
| 12/21 |
To C. Bork and others
Bill Cadola was the Deputy on Team 4 when I was one of the two Operations
Section Chiefs. I had the pleasure of working with Bill on several fires
and seeing him at the annual Team 4 reunions.
He was serious, sincere and concerned about all aspects of his team duties
and his friends and family.
He will be missed.
Bob |
| 12/21 |
From Firescribe
Computer freeze halts hiring of fire crews
By Judd Slivka
http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/articles/1221firehire21.html
Hope that gets corrected real soon. See the jobs page. One answer to
the fed problem, post those Dept of Interior fire job offers here on the
Jobs Page as did one theysaid poster from Wisconsin! Ab. |
| 12/21 |
Ab, you forgot to put a link/button to e-mail on the "They
Said" page, makes
it a bit clumsy switching back and forth.
FFSS from Penn,
Re: Power Point Presentations. I-100 is meant to be a self study course
and I
doubt that you will find a PP Presentation for that, but it is so short
you
could do one in about an hour or less. As far as 261 goes -- can't give
any
help there, may be one out there-maybe not.
WP
Hey WP, I'm surpris'd you didn't sign that "Without
Postingability" and/or "Without Powerpoint" or some such.
Ya mean someone actually used that email button? Ab. |
| 12/21 |
I updated the Jobs
Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series
0462 and 0455.
Ab. |
| 12/20 |
I recently read about a 30% percent pay increase in region five. Is this
region wide, going to be in other regions, just forest service, blm, or
what? Thanks for anyone who can shed some more light on the subject.
Thanks.
Mark |
| 12/20 |
Will be starting winter fire training in Pa. to get ready for spring.
Looking for the following courses on PowerPoint I-100, S-261, and anything
on Map and Compass. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
FFSS in Pennsylvania |
| 12/20 |
Merry Christmas everyone. Have a happy and safe Holiday.
Ab:
I know you hear this alot. But thanks for the excellent web site and
the hard work you guys & gals put into it. It is very much appreciated
and makes the winter season allot more bearable. Thank You!!!
R6FF
Thanks, it IS a lot of hard work and we appreciate the thanks. If
you've noticed, we are changing some of the link buttons at the top of the
pages. Haven't made the final changes on font type yet, but we are
streamlining things. Hopefully the changes will make this time-consuming
job a bit more efficient. This Ab still hasn't gotten to a number of
photos and is likely not to until after Christmas. Thanks for your
patience, photo submitters. We will get them up, and some nice ones there
are. Ab. |
| 12/20 |
Just read this morning that the judge is allowing most DOI websites to
come back online. The
article added that resurrecting them could take a few more days. As of now
I can't access any
of them, or the NIFC site, but hopefully the havoc is almost over.
Phyllis Owen, it was a pleasure to read your sweet poem. As Ab said, when
all is said and done we owe a lot to you transportation specialists.
Happy Holidays!
-Kibby |
| 12/20 |
TAHOE TED - I don't have a contact at OZP but the phone number of
headquarters in Van Buren is 573-323-4236. If you know anybody at Mark
Twain, they should have contacts. They work together some.
Shep |
| 12/20 |
Hello all-
Many thanks for the references to the Rappel bases, it makes the search a
lot easier. It will definitely help this east coaster come back out next
season.
GK |
| 12/20 |
I knew Bill when he was forest AFMO, and agree w/ ERL, he was one of
those firemen you're glad you could say you knew. I don't know which team
he was on but, I do think i remember seeing him on a 620 class photo at
NARTC so maybe someone there could provide info.
PS - Barfy probably knows Bill's History, if anybody knows who this is...
C.Bork |
| 12/20 |
Seeking a fire personnel contact at the Ozark National Scenic
Riverways......does someone have a list of contacts/phone #'s in the
NPS.......with the system down...makes it hard to find people.
Thanks in advance
TAHOE TED |
| 12/18 |
Hello All,
UPDATE: As I mentioned before on theysaid, I have made T-shirts with the
united-we-stand-twin towers-pentagon design that I'm selling to
benefit the families of those who died on 9/11. (I have about 40 left.)
They're 100% cotton preshrunk white T-shirt, sizes M, L, XL, and XXL, cost
$12.00 plus $3.00 for shipping. As those who have ordered and gotten
theirs can tell you: you can e-mail me for info, I tell you where, you
send me the size and a check for the t-shirt(s) and I send you the
t-shirts.
ALL proceeds (no profit to me) will go to the United Way September 11
fund (http://www.uwnyc.org/sep11/index.html).
Orders and any questions to:
T_shirt911@hotmail.com (there
is an _ after the T )
Dave |
| 12/19 |
Hello,
Can anyone give me an idea of the ins and outs of the position of FEO
with the forest service: daily schedules, responsibilities, negatives and
positives about the job in general? any and all info would greatly be
appreciated. feel free to email me at
quincy7717@hotmail.com |
| 12/19 |
I see that the announcement is out for Redmond IHC. This is a
developmental training detail, and according to the announcement,
employees from outside Region 6, the Forest Service and even state
agencies will be considered. Dates of the detail are April thru Sept.,
2002. Contact persons are Doug Johnson (541)504-7351 or Deb Blais
(541)504-7344.
I also see that Redding IHC has an outreach out for a Squad Leader. The
contact is Craig Lechleiter (503)222-5460
-Bald Paul- |
| 12/19 |
GK and all,
Here is some new info on exclusive use helibases. www.ihogman.com/ihfa/htack/index.html
Thanks alot and I hope this helps out.
An-R5er |
| 12/19 |
In the book "Memorable Forest Fires", Edited by Gilbert W.
Davies and Florice M. Frank published by HiStory Ink Books, Hat Creek, CA,
there is about 11 pages of William "Bill" Cadola's personal
remembrances. This book is a great read mostly fires in the Cascades but
stories from all over.
180 |
| 12/19 |
I can't give you all the details but I know Bill started on the Scott
River District, Went to Happy Camp, and then became AFMO of the Klamath. I
have known Bill and his family all of my life and am deeply saddened by
his passing. I have many memories of him, mostly funny. Thank you Bill for
being a part of my life.
I'm not sure what team Bill had and don't remember that they were known as
anything but the IC's name.
Been lurking for a few years, great site, I consider it a must for my job
to keep a feel for the pulse of the grunts,
And yes the DOI Internet is still down, creating a lot of havoc all over
the place.
ERL |
| 12/19 |
Folks are working hard at NIFC to get an exemption/security clearance to
the DOI order and get the NIFC website back up. If all goes well, it could
be back up right after the first of the year. Other DOI sites may be down
as long as late Feb but I understand they are working on a stand-alone
site
to provide on-line application capability.
Thought this info might be worth sharing.
RD
Thanks RD. If there's anymore update as time goes on, we'd
appreciate knowing. Ab. |
| 12/18 |
The Jobs Page and
the Wildland Firefighter Job Series
0462 and 0455
have been updated. Ab. |
| 12/18 |
Great pictures on your webpage!!!!. We used them for a 5th grade natural
disaster project. Thanks!!!!!!!!!
Sharon
You're welcome, I'm sure. Ab. |
| 12/18 |
Was trying to get info from U.S.G.S. web site (United States Geologic
Survey). Most of what I wanted I can't connect to. Found and interesting
message at their web site: as of Dec. 8, 2001, the U.S.G.S and NIFC were
both supposed to be up and running due to the Emergency Services work they
do. All other DOI links are still down due to the law suit. What was
interesting was the note that said the U.S.G.S. is working with the new
Home Land Security section.
I hope every one has a safe and Merry Christmas and a good New Year.
Be careful out there stay safe and warm.
Local Agency Volunteer Engineer (L.A.V.E) |
| 12/18 |
Can anyone tell me as to why the Washington Forests in R6 have nowhere
near the Perm. vacancy announcements as the Oregon Forests? I have been
scrolling thru the ASAP announcements and was amazed at the number of
people Oregon Forests were picking up compared to Washingtons. I have
got to say I'm a little disappointed, I was hoping there would be more
announcements for Wa.
Also why is it that some forests that I know are flyin vacancies for
perm. positions in Wa. are not on ASAP?
R6FF |
| 12/18 |
AFEO 33 / NorCal Tom,
To answer your question AFEO 33, Pierce will only be supplying 4x4's and
water tenders. That's what the contract calls for. So if your station is
getting a 4x2, then you'll be receiving an engine from Boise Mobile
Equipment (BME).
To answer your question NorCalTom, Pierce will be building all water
tenders for Region 5 (and other Regions). The Fire Equipment Committee is
developing specs for a "tactical" water tender. This tactical
water-tender will have similar capabilities to that of an engine, but
serve primarily as a water-tender. This tactical water tender will have
the option of CAFS with fully automated monitors (one on top, one on the
front bumper). This option I believe is available right now on regular
water tenders but will be paid out of the Forest budget ($15,000.00 just
fro the CAFS unit). So when all is said and done, there will be two
options to choose from on what type of water tender. As far as the engines
appearance. The 4x4's will look very similar to the prototype that is
located on the Plumas (4x2). I don't believe that Pierce classifies that
as a Hawk.
Engineer41 |
| 12/18 |
Bill Cadola died yesterday. He will be missed. Here's the link to his
obituary from the Siskiyou Daily News in Yreka, CA. www.siskiyoudaily.com
They report:
He loved and excelled in his job as an assistant fire staff for the
Klamath National Forest. Bill was an Incident Commander of a Type #1
National Fire Team for the USFS.... A celebration of his life will be
held 11 a.m., Dec. 20 at the First Southern Baptist Church, 921 S.
Oregon St. in Yreka with graveside service immediately following at the
Fort Jones Cemetery.
CL
Can anyone fill us in further on details of his career? When was he
an IC and for what team? any other details or remembrances? Ab. |
| 12/18 |
My name is Jeremy Powers and I'm the webmaster for Oshkosh and Pierce.
The links on the Oshkosh page are now fixed. There were extra slashes in
the links and IE is more forgiving about that than Netscape.
FYI, both the Oshkosh and Pierce sites were tested with Netscape 4.0 and
later, for both Mac and Windows, and was even designed to work, to some
degree, with several scaled-down limited browsers such as Opera.
Why, thanks, Jeremy. It's nice when links work for all our viewers.
What say, NorCalTom, can you read this now? Ab. |
| 12/18 |
Regarding the Pierce engines: Oshkosh has the press release on their
website. www.oshkoshtruck.com .
Scroll down in the "latest news" to see the
headline and click from there. Pierce also has their GSA Authorized
Federal Supply Schedule Price List that may provide some useful
information. I didn't see Forest Service engines listed specifically but
saw NPS and BLM. www.piercemfg.com/gsa/index.htm
I am curious. Is the interest because of getting new engines or because
they are Pierce?
Shep
Readers, once on the site, the link to the article under
"Latest News" that Shep describes doesn't work with Netscape.
You get an error message "can't locate the server". You have to
use Internet Explorer to read this article. (Does Bill Gates own Pierce
and/or Oshkosh?) Ab.
|
| 12/18 |
Nor cal tom, I saw the article you mentioned, and am wondering about the
3.9 mil price tag?
56 rigs at 3.9 mil is a hell of a bargain. works out to like 65K + - each.
I cant even buy a chassis for that much, let alone an entire rig.
This doi web site down stuff is getting old.
just a note,
be safe later
eric |
| 12/18 |
Soooo....has anyone heard when, (or if) the DOI sites are ever going to
come back online?
Rumors were they would be back last week and then nothing happened. Kinda
strange stuff going on this year....
-Kibby |
| 12/18 |
Just to clarify, Arroyo Grande is a 28 person rappel/helishot crew, we
will be mostly staffed with apprentices. The few positions left over ( if
any ) will be filled with temporary appointments. At this time we do not
know how many positions we will have. If you are interested, please go
through the normal application process. You are welcome to email/call us
at the address/phone# provided in one of the preceding posts. If anybody
would like specific information about the crew, I would be happy to help
them out.
Sting |
| 12/18 |
Several days ago Hickman sent a question regarding benefits in to
Cynthia Y. Simons, Benefits Specialist at the DOJ. He cc-ed us. Here is
his question and her reply.
----- Original Message -----
>>> " Hickman" 12/13/01 09:45PM >>>
I was reading a resent post in a fire forum about a firefighter who was
killed during a wildland fire operation in Idaho. His family was denied
benefits since he was under contract by a private contractor who hired
him. The contractor appeared to be working under a contract with the state
or forest service at the time of the incident. I guess my question would
deal with a possible situation similar to this: If a firefighter was
working under a contract with a company such as Rural Metro, which works
under contract with cities or fire districts to provide fire protection,
would their firefighters be covered under PSO benefits in case of death?
If so what would be the difference between the wildland firefighter and
the Rural Metro firefighter, since they both work under contract?
Thank you for your Information
<snip> Hickman
-----Reply-----
From: "Cynthia Simons" <CINDYS@OJP.USDOJ.GOV>
Cc: "BJA ASK" <ASKBJA@OJP.USDOJ.GOV>; "Valerie
Neal" <VAL@OJP.USDOJ.GOV>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: PSO benifits
Hi <snip> Hickman
The difference is whether the firefighter was being paid by the state,
forest service or contractor.
If the firefighter was paid by the contractor who was under contract with
the state or forest service when the line of duty death occurred, then his
survivors would not be eligible for the benefit. If the firefighter was
under contract, but was paid by the state or forest service then his
survivors would be eligible for the benefit, if it was a line of duty
death.
I hope this helps.
If have any additional questions you can e-mail us again, or you can call
1-888-744-6513. |
| 12/17 |
Re the Pierce engines: There was an article on 12/6 entitled
"Oshkosh Truck Subsidiary, Pierce, to Supply 55 Fire Trucks to U.S.
Forest Service in California". The link to it went away almost
immediately or I would have sent it in. The article said that
- Pierce was going to supply the Forest Service in CA with 56 fire
fighting vehicles for use on the wildland/urban interface.
- The order is valued at $3.9 million.
- Many will be delivered by July, 2002. 55 plus 140 that CA already
has increases the number of vehicles significantly.
- The order includes 31 tanker trucks and 25 Hawk wildland trucks.
(their term - trucks)
- Something about the trucks being customized for the interface and
meeting the requirements of the GSA schedule.
- Pierce committed to expand its model offerings for the interface
fire fighting market and that it offers a CAFS.
Does anyone know if the engines will include a CAFS system? That would
be a plus.
NorCalTom |
| 12/17 |
AB, just a comment,
As I understand it the DOI folks are under the judges orders not even
to use their home computers for anything that has to do with their jobs.
The only way to communicate with them is via Fax or Phone. It is getting
to be a real pain in the neck.
WP
|
| 12/17 |
engineer 41
when will pierce start making 4x2s? last I heard from my forest that we
are getting the new engine from pierce not a 4x4.
afeo 33 |
| 12/17 |
GK-
sounds like AG is dooing a little recruiting.
-P |
| 12/17 |
I have a similar question as the one below about benefits... Please
somebody tell me...
Which specific death benefits go to the families of wildland firefighters?
Which still apply if they were on contract?
What percentage of firefighters are on contract?
Another widow trying to figure it all out,
Diana |
| 12/17 |
GK,
Try the AG station on the Los Padres. The phone number is (805)
481-1280, or you could email tplymale@fs.fed.us. |
| 12/17 |
WLF and DK,
Here is a site that you can get Interagency Helicopter Rappel Base
Directory and Users Guide. Look up www.ihogman/ihfa/rap/.
This should be very helpful, if it doesn't work, log on to www.ihogman.com/ihfa/
and get a hold of ihogman and he will get you the info. Everybody there is
very helpful.
An-R5er
For future reference, that link is on the Links
Page under aviation. Ab. |
| 12/17 |
Probably if you call BIFC and ask politely they will have a list of all
resources nationwide on the computer and can e-mail it to you.
Dah!
Medford
BIFC? Now let's not confuse people. Jobseekers/newbies, before you
rush off to look up BIFC on the internet or in the phone book, best check
the acronyms page. Even if you try NIFC, you'll find all Dept of
Interior websites are down. Not one link to DOI sites on our Links Page
works. No e-mail -- all their computers are offline. (Someone musta bribed
that judge so as to get some holiday time off at taxpayers' expense.) The
only way those from the BLM, NPS, BIA, and FWS are reading this page and
in touch with the world is from their home computers, as I understand it.
Any of you want to report in? Can you??? Helloooooooooo. Ab. |
| 12/17 |
RxFire,
There is a 4.6 raise for all Forest Service employees that starts
1/14/2002.
Region 5 has approved a 30% raise which started this last Pay Period
(#24). This is for GS-2 to 8, little less for GS-9 and up. With our
locality pay it actually comes out to roughly 15%. I'm not sure if any
other Regions are putting in or are getting this type of raise. Hope this
answers your question...
GK,
You might want to check the Ramona Helitack on the Cleveland, Palomar
Ranger District. There are plans for the 2002 season to convert them to a
rappel crew/helishots. I have not heard if this will actually happen by
2002, but you can call the district (760) 788-0250 to be placed in contact
with their rep.
LagunaJim.... |
| 12/16 |
GK,
I do not know where you could find a list of the various Rappel crews
around. Arroyo Grande on the Los Padres NF, is an FS Rappel crew. I don't
know the number off hand but if you call a Ranger Station in Santa Maria,
San Luis or anywhere in the surrounding areas I am sure they will be
willing to give you that information. There is also a Forest Service
rappel ship out of Kern Valley, I think they are out of the Sierra NF,
maybe Shasta-Trinity NF, again if you call a station or regional office in
that area, they might help you more. There is also a rappel crew out of
Alberta, Canada with the Land & Forest Service. Search the FS website
www.fs.fed.us and start sending emails looking for crews. Good luck!
BH |
| 12/16 |
GK-
Here's a site that links to some FS Helitack Rappel Bases in R6
www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/aviation/rappel/rappel.htm
I'll look/ask around for others. How cumbersome to go through all the
firehire locations as AW suggested, although that's an ingenious solution.
I know I recently saw some kind of Rappel Base Directory/Users Guide and
I'm trying to remember where. Bet you could get one from the Boise FS
office or get them to fax you a few pages of info. You'd think there
would be a list somewhere on the FS intranet if no where else. I think the
FS has close to 40 locations, NPS has two, and BLM has one or maybe two.
The new R5 Arroyo Grande crew made Type 1 this fall. They have a good
rep. Keep them in mind when you're applying.
AL |
| 12/16 |
Sent in by Firescribe:
CNN story on the costs of fighting fire
Forest Service firefighting costs rising |
| 12/16 |
Any one got a good example of some answers to the KSAs for
FSJOBS-02-M002 that they wouldnt mind sending me, I could sure use some
quality assistance, reply at rickandurs@juno.com
Rick
Ab sez: Here's www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index_series.htm
-- how to access the FSJOBS-02-M002 vacancy announcement. It's a word
document. Click on the link. Form C and your résumé <heavy
French accent> determine whether you make the cert list, so it is good
to take some time and focus on this. Here are some application suggestions
from ASAP. This is a word doc. (You can also find a link to it on the
ASAP index page mentioned by DF yesterday, a few posts below.) |
| 12/16 |
Hi All -
After reviewing what was being said the past week or two, I noticed
some talk about the Pierce contract. I want to take this time to set the
record straight.
Pierce does have a contract to build the Forest Service new engines. The
engines that will be produced will be 4x4's. Not 4x2's. The 4x2's will
still be built by BME. Pierce will be doing the build-ups of all 4x4's and
water tenders. All engines being built are still Model 62's, NOT 63's. The
reason for the current 4x2 from Pierce is that it is a prototype. Pierce
had to build what is referred to as a first article, so the Regional Fire
Equipment Committee can review it and make necessary changes (and there
will be). If you have any other questions please let me know. Happy
holidays!!!!!
Engineer 41
Thanks for the clarification Engineer 41. Ab. |
| 12/16 |
Dear Ab and all,
Has anyone heard if the civil service is getting a raise? I have heard
from friends in the military that they are getting about 6-7% increase in
basic salary? I haven't seen anything on the opm website, but I could have
missed it.
It's looking like it will be a White Christmas here in SE. Oregon.
Merry Christmas to all.
RxFire |
| 12/15 |
Hello6
I have had the pleasure of being a bus driver for a few of the Wildlands
Firefighters crews. I think you people are awesome! To do the work that
you do and still maintain the attitude you do, is truely awe inspiring! I
wrote this for Choctaw 37, Snowball 6, the Globe Hotshots and every other
man and woman who risks their life to fight our forest fires.
The Wildlands Firefighters
A lightning strike could start the blaze;
The smoke is seen through the morning haze.
It spirals up into the sky;
There is a fire on the mountain high.
The dry season is drawing near;
The call goes out, "We need you here."
Into the night, risking their lives,
Leaving their homes, their children and wives.
Wildlands Firefighters go where there's a need,
Putting safety first is the motto they heed.
Men and women in green and gold,
Hold the line and do as they're told.
They battle the flames that threaten our lands;
They fight them with shovels, rakes and hands.
They sleep in tents on the cold, cold ground,
Ever ready for the alarm to sound.
Keeping our forests safe from harm,
Woods and mountains and even the farm.
Duty calls, and for fourteen days,
They give up their lives and their own ways.
So, if they happen to come to your town,
Say a great big thank you and cheers all around!
They give of themselves most selflessly,
That our National Forests may continue to be!
11/09/01
Phyllis Owen
(Transportation Specialist)
Good Luck to all of you and a very.......
Hey, Phyllis, same to ya. There's been more than one bus driver who
has saved the lives of groundpounders in a tight spot. We're all on the
same side. (And I know it didn't rhyme, but our women firefighters leave
their children and husbands, too.) Ab. |
| 12/15 |
AB, ABBY, ABE, ABETTE, and so on,
This would be a good addition to the Links page:
www.firehero.org/lodd/PSOBFact.htm
And while you are in there, maybe you can correct the address to the
OPM
site, you have: http://www3.opm.gov/oca/payrates/index.htm Somehow a
'3' sneeked in be hind the WWW.
Later,
WP
I added the new link referencing family benefits available following
a LODD to the Links page under "federal
employees". Also made the other corrections. Always 'preciate
knowing about broken links. Thanks WP and Rhino. Ab. |
| 12/15 |
A lump of coal for the bean-counter like musings about risk from
michael. He will go far if he is in CDF with all the Forester-Accountants
running the fire department.
Does he really have the cheek to talk about risk in terms of
dollars...on THIS page? What about the risks of those doing initial attack
on Late Season wind driven fires and going a whole day without aircraft,
dozers, even crews? You talk about acceptable risk to the person at the
end of the hoseline facing a 150' sheet of flame with virtually no back
up, maybe even without type 3 engines.
A pox on you. Wildland fire resources should be available until the
ground is saturated and herbaceous fuels begin their growth cycle. Sorry,
but in So Cal that is December. And we (CDF) are budgeted until December
15. It was only Forester-Accountants trying to save a few days worth of
salary that caused us to close.
Fireball XL 5 |
| 12/15 |
REMINDER - Round 1 Permanent Fire Jobs (Vacancy
Announcements-FSJOBS-02-D00, FSJOBS-02-M002) went up on the ASAP site on
12/03 and people have to have their applications in by 1/15/02.
Not much time to get your stuff in a heap and out on the street.
Lots of jobs in R-6, 19 on the Umpqua N.F. alone, so all you temps and
folks who want an upgrade, go get 'em. This web site will get you in,
www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index.html
DF
Check out the jobs page for more details and outreach descriptions
for jobs on the Umpqua. Ab. |
| 12/15 |
WP, regarding the pot of money available in line of duty deaths:
Reference www.firehero.org/lodd/PSOBFact.htm
. Department of Justice,
PSOB Public Safety Officer's Benefits. The amount listed at $151,635 for
2001, I believe President Bush raised the amount after 9/11.
Rhino |
| 12/15 |
I want to thank you for all the information. For people that don't know
what to do, my son received a book of letters that were sent from all
over the United States from Firefighters sending their condolences. He
then saw how many people really cared about his father and was filled
with sorrow, but also pride that his father was a hero and died saving
others lives. That is the concern no matter if you're contracted or not.
We are all one brotherhood, but not from a Federal or State point of
view. Please ask your organization what you can do to change this and
help the next family that loses a parent! My son will never be the same
but he knows that there are a ton of people out there that care about
him and his dad.
DRC
DRC, and others, take a look at the link below that k. sent in for
NWSA, a contract wildland firefighter association. I don't know anything
about it and I know this is too late for your family DRC, but others might
look into joining this organization. Ab. |
| 12/14 |
The Jobs Page and
the Wildland Firefighter Job Series
0462 and 0455
have been updated. Lotsa jobs in Oregon, Umpqua National Forest and jobs
offered by the state of OR. Check em out.
Not nearly done with the photos, but here's a sneak preview of some
photos of the Moose
Fire in Montana, 2001. That fire burned over many jurisdictions in
late August. Photos probably were taken by someone on Humphrey's IIMT. If
anyone knows who the photographer is, please let us know so we can give
credit.
Ab.
|
| 12/14 |
http://www.nwsa.net/
1-877-676-NWSA
President: Rick Dice
Phone: 541-746-7528 E-Mail: RDice@msn.com
Vice President: Mike Wheelock
Phone: 541-476-0033 E-Mail:
mike@graybackforestry.com
k. |
| 12/14 |
USFS FEO,
When you were totaling up how much you are worth dead, you missed a big
pot
of money! There is a federal program that pays a tax free benefit to any
firefighter or police officers family, if they die in the line of duty.
When I first heard about it years ago it was $60,000.00, later I heard it
was
up to $100,000.00 and might be higher now. I do not know the name of the
agency that administers the program, can any one out there point in the
right
direction (web site)? As far as I know the program does not apply to
contractors, but stuff happens and they might be eligible?
WP |
| 12/14 |
DRC,
Try contacting the NWSA. Maybe they can point you in the correct
direction to help you . They deal specifically with contract crews. The
president ( if I remember correctly) is named Rick Dice. I hope this may
help somehow.
R6FF |
| 12/14 |
Hey Ya'll,
You really should go to Krs Evans' website and read and see the photos
of his experience getting hit by the falling snag, being in the hospital
in intensive care and now in rehab. Photos of his dad, crew who stood by
him, etc. His story is very conversational, matter of fact and funny at
times. He has such a fine spirit, nothing of the victim, and his
site is very interesting. (He also has some outrageous hotshot humor, the
likes of which we aren't allowed to post here, if-ya-know-what-i-mean,
Ab.) He writes every few days of new experiences, so it's always changing.
Excellent writer. And has said that people he doesn't know are e-mailing
and he really enjoys that. Go read, look, laugh, enjoy. Send him an
e-mail. Krs is neither a victim nor down in spirit, but as JH said, he
does have a big mountain to climb and would certainly enjoy the cheers
from our sidelines. Hey Ab, I know you've posted this link before, but
please put it up again.
www.krstofer.org
Mellie
I also found his site thoroughly enjoyable in places and interesting
in others. When you get to the front page and his name, click on it for
all the other pages. Hotshot Down is a no-nonsense account from a good
writer. Ab. |
| 12/14 |
Some photos, lots of photos to do. Thanks for the many contributions.
I'll get to them today. Ab. |
| 12/14 |
DRC, I am very sorry for your loss and for all the members of our family
of firefighters who have lost their lives serving the public in any
capacity, paid, volunteer, inmate or contract and otherwise. There are
many of us out here who would be glad help you out if we knew how to
contact you or your representative. Do you have a trust fund set up for
your son?
Remember it's not about the government, it's about us. No one else is
going to care as much as we do.
Abs thanks for this forum - maybe we can do some good for somebody.
Merry Christmas and God Bless.
Backburnfs |
| 12/14 |
r3 Flyer------
Thanks mucho for your help. I had earlier called KNDO TV but they said
they had no tapes left. Will continue hunting as I think that tape must be
very, very touching and a very special event. Doesn't surgery get in the
way of regular life, though. Darn and blast it.
Jane |
| 12/14 |
Amen WAFF.
But I have to say. I think you have a bad outlook on the
whole Fed vs. Contractor issue. Why do I say that? Because I worked as a
Crew Boss for a contract crew this year. All my previous experience was
with the Feds. Yes they do have it tuff and have to jump thru alot more
hoops than most people. But I never realized how many loyal brothers and
sisters are out there until I was on the other side. My crew worked
with shot crews who commended us on our work. People in finance helped
me fumble thru the hoops. We cut miles of line and rolled tons of hose
and mopped up over fed crews. We were commended and not once did I feel
like my crew was being looked down upon by the people we worked side by
side with. The rules were put in place by higher ups not our fellow
firefighters. That is all I have to say on that matter.
I too lost a friend this year and my condolences go out to the families
of our fallen brothers and sisters this year.
R6FF |
| 12/13 |
Hello all,
Abs, Would you mind if I solicit a little advertisement on the site for a
recruitment open house on the Los Padres National Forest, for the 15th of
Dec? We will be taking questions and handing out information on the
up-coming hiring process for temporary fire positions for the 2002 fire
season.
The open house will be at the Air Tanker Base ( 90 Arnold Dr., Goleta CA
). If you have any questions or need directions on how to get there,
please call (805) 967-6115 ext 202.
Thanks alot,
Mike |
| 12/13 |
GK about rappellers,
There isn't much information on the internet. So far the Federal agencies
have done a pretty poor job of getting onto the internet. Probably the
best way to get the information you want is to go to the firehire site, go
into locations and call the districts that list helicopters.
www.fs.fed.us/people/employ/asap/index_locations.htm
pick the region
AW |
| 12/13 |
Have to agree with fireronin and mellie, I too did not respond as I had
no useful information to offer, I was happy to see the first post from
WAFF as I thought it showed there was somebody who was knowledgeable about
the problem, I did not respond to the severe injury of the hotshot posts
either for much the same reason.
DRC, I do wish you and your child well and am sorry for your loss. As
far as better treatment for contractors, there are contract firefighting
associations out there. Perhaps you might be able to contact them. I doubt
there is much that can be done to directly help you at this point but they
might be able to put you in touch with people who are trying to change the
situation, to prevent this in the future. As Mellie said, California
amended their laws to include contractors working for government agencies
in the states benefits program. I hope you don't take the lack of posts as
the people here not caring. I'm sure most just didn't know what to say.
As to the contractor vs "government" firefighters, the
employing agency or company bears the responsibility for the bulk of the
employees protection. I did a quick search on the National Fallen
Firefighters Foundation. For the most part the benefits are moral support
groups, plaques and some undisclosed amounts of financial assistance
primarily aimed at allowing the families to travel when necessary in
relation to participating in the activities mentioned above. The college
tuition assistance paid for by the Government has only applied to Federal
firefighters since 1998 (and Federal Law Enforcement since 1996) and was
basically intended as a recruitment tool. Other benefits only apply to
members of the IAFF (which would exclude many federal firefighters), most
federal wildland firefighters (except members of the FWFSA I would assume
as well as volunteers and contractors).
A quick bit of math leaves me with this: if I were to die my family
would get approximately $150,000 from the life insurance (which I pay for
although at a lower government rate) plus tuition assistance of $404 per
month (roughly $20,000 over a 4 year degree program) and the Forest
Service pays an additional amount (2x my yearly salary? so say another
$60,000) for a line of duty death and Social Security benefits (which
contractors should be entitled to). So this is roughly $210,000 through
the Forest Service, $20,000 from the NFFF, and Social Security. As I said
above, the bulk of death benefits comes from the employer.
WAFF, if you want to discuss the contractor vs government employee
issue at a more appropriate time I'd be glad to discuss that in a
constructive fashion, I don't know all that much about it as I've never
been on a contract crew but I'd be willing to learn, you obviously have
some issues on your mind about that.
USFS FEO |
| 12/13 |
Jane, this may be the info you are looking for...Television Station
KNDO,
1608 S. 24th Avenue, Yakima, WA 98902, had a film crew present that filmed
the entire event, beginning with the fire engine processional and ending
with the service at the Yakima Sundome. Earlier this video was available
for the cost of $25.00, all of which was to be donated to the forest
Firefighters Memorial Fund. This info was provided by an Information
Assistant at the Naches Ranger District, telephone 509.653.2205, ext. 228.
Hope this helps,
r3 Flyer.
Thanks r3 Flyer. Ab. |
| 12/13 |
WAFF,
You may have misinterpreted the lack of posts as lack of caring. I for one
did not post because I had nothing practical to add to your earlier post.
The only action I see as having any hope is to seek out a lawyer to
recover damages or insurance proceeds through the contractor.
You said it all as far as I was concerned, including your condolences. I
think all the folks that lurk and most that post feel that what you said
represented us all. You gave the only advice I could have offered that
might have been of use. If I had anything to add I would have and I think
this goes for most of the other folks in the fire community that read your
post.
Just because there were not a bunch of redundant posts reaffirming what
your post said, doesn't mean that we don't care. On the contrary. We ARE a
family. When one of our own is hurt or killed it hurts all of us. I have
seen grown men cry for fallen comrades that they never met because it
hurts so much. I have been known to do so myself. It doesn't matter who
writes your checks...we are all brothers and sisters. And I think we all
felt the same helplessness at being unable to think of better advice than
yours. I did.
Yes, there are those that mistakenly display their pride in their own unit
by treating others as inferior. Some are old and set in their ways, others
young and foolish. Yes, there may be one or two that are miffed by your
bringing up the shoddy way contractors are treated sometimes. Who cares.
And yes, maybe you have a point that we should demonstrate a little more
compassion toward our fallen comrades and their families. How specifically
would you suggest we do this?
But please don't go away angry.. or go away at all. If you believe you are
at all right we need your point of view.
Nuff said,
Fireronin |
| 12/13 |
WAFF,
Many people who read here care about benefits for contractors and for
vollies as well as for fed and state employees. Now you can even SEARCH
back through the past theysaid posts to find all the discussions about
benefits.
My friend Karen died when run over by her engine while fighting a fire
in Redding CA, fall of 1999. She was a volunteer. Immediately ALL the
firefighters in Denny Camp, not just the vollies, took up a collection for
her two girls. The outpouring was profound. Richard Blood, a contract bus
driver, was murdered at the Anderson CA Fairgrounds while rotating off the
Big Bar Complex, fall of 1999. Through an oversight and the fact that the
overhead teams were also in the process of wrapping it up and leaving, his
family was not even offered condolences from the fed fire community until
way later. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, please.) While his children
are grown and not so in need of educational funds, the lack of support
from a high level was painful.
After Larry and Lars (contract AT firefighters) died in the mid-air
collision this summer, many responded with support, financial and
emotional. As the result of the hard work of a number of AT pilots' wives,
a bill was passed in CA. It entitles children of those who die while
fighting fire (or engaged in law enforcement) in CA to go to state
colleges and universities tuition-free. (I believe the legislature must
vote to extend it in two years, so your support to lobby that renewal may
be called on at that time.) The point is that the change in law came about
because pilots, their wives and the fire community spoke loudly about the
inequities in contractor benefits and pushed to get the change done. Such
balancing of support resources needs to happen across the nation.
As far as folks here not joining you in responding to DRC because they
don't care about contractors, you're wrong. Here's an alternative
explanation: People often don't know what to say when confronted with
people who have lost a loved one -- especially when the person feels like
a firefighter's child is not getting the support they need. Even I
sometimes don't know what to say. Frankly, I was glad you replied so
wonderfully to DRC.
So I hope you continue to join us when you feel you have something to
contribute. But ultimately, it's your call.
Mellie |
| 12/13 |
GOLLY, I am so GLAD that WAFF got all that off the chest!! Gosh, Ab, a
person could develop an ulcer feeling that snitty and not blowing it off
on your site.
All seriousness aside, I suspect the reason that dozens of people did
not pigpile all over the post about the benefits for a lost contractor
is that many of us have been dealing with that issue for ages and ages
and ages. What happens when contract tanker pilots die? Who provides
those benefits? It's an old issue, an ugly issue, and not one that will
go away anytime soon. This is not about how agency firefighters feel
about contract firefighters, and contract firefighters are nothing new.
Seems to me like WAFF oughta get a better grip on the issue before going
off and spitting on everyone in the assumption that no one cared.
contracttoo. |
| 12/13 |
OK. Some one asked a question regarding benefits for a fallen
FIREFIGHTER
that happened to be a contractor. Now, seeing I am the only one that
responded to her. I am concerned, well not too concerned, just
disappointed.
Now I guarantee that if the firefighter would have been FED, BLM, or
whatever federal or state agency, everyone on this site would have been
all
over that post trying to help her. But seeing that he was only a
contractor,
I was the only one.
Personally I think that stinks. Its one thing to treat contractors
differently, kind of like hazing, but for gods sake, we're all
firefighters.
We all deserve the same respect everyone else gets.
When are people going to realize that we're all risking our lives. We're
all
working the same hours, we're all pounding the same ground. Until then,
unfortunately, we're going to have the segregation we have here.
Funny thing is, I used to be state. I never looked down upon contractors.
I
treated them with respect as I would anyone else. But I had never
experienced what a contractor experiences every time they go into check
in.
>From the look that they receive when they go into finance and get
rerouted
( with a smug look ) to equipment time. To the introduction of a Div Sup
that
was ex hotshot and dealing with that.
Frankly people its getting old. Realize that you yourself are there to do
a
job. That job is to put out a fire. NOT to haze or treat people
disrespectfully or even differently. I know there is a human resource
specialist in camp, but thing is, they're Fed too.
It has become a game of pretty much us and them. Weather people think it
or
not. It is. And I write this here due to the fact it applies here. If ya
don't think so, how many replied to the fallen firefighter post???
Now, this is the last time I am going to post and the last time I am
visiting the site. Sorry AB. I am upset at the fact that this isn't the
first time it has happened. It happen about a year ago with that inmate
that
was lost and he left a 10 yr old daughter. No one but myself responded to
that. I just cant believe that people are that ( for lack of a better word
)
stuck up, that they segregate firefighters to that extent.
People might ask who I am and what right I have to speak like this. I am a
6
year wildfire veteran. I also have 4 1/2 years of structure experience. I
have played the game and because I love my job so much, I continue to play
the same game every summer. And as a firefighter who has seen both sides
( contractor and state ), I have every right to tell people to wake up and
leave the old ways behind. Accept the fact that contractors are here to
stay
regardless of how much you may dislike it or how poorly you treat us. Wake
up to the fact that we are all risking our lives and we are all doing the
same job.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling that all who read this will be upset at
the
fact that a contractor raised there opinion on how screwed things are and
take it out on contractors they meet next summer. Now I hope that doesn't
happen, but it probably will.
Everyone have a save summer next year. And to DRC, again I am terribly
sorry
about the loss. I hope for a speedy recovery for the family.
WAFF
Oh, my, WAFF, you're not the first person today to write in that
you'll never post here again. (And the others were not contractors.)
Wonder if there's a dissatisfaction virus going around... Hmmmmmm, if it
becomes an epidemic and no one posts, we might just have to shut 'er down.
(tongue firmly in cheek) Ab. |
| 12/13 |
Good Morning All,
We've been working on the website and have added a Search capability
which we're in the process of testing. We'd like your help on this. If you
can think of any word or topic to search on, please enter it and see what
you find. For example, if I search for "engine", a lot of
theysaid archive pages come up on which engine has been mentioned. You can
click on one archived page link and the archive will come up. Within that
page, you can search for engine by going to "edit" in the menu
bar and going down to "find" or simply hitting the control and F
buttons simultaneously.
More complex "boolian" searches can be done using
"and" and "or" between multiple words. Directions for
these are on the Search
Page.
Can you find anything we've "hidden" from the readers?
Ab. |
| 12/13 |
Jane,
I've been asking around a little. You might try giving the Cle Elum
Ranger District a call. They are a close knit group and some of the
family members work there. I am sure they can direct you in the right
direction. (509) 674-4411
R6FF |
| 12/12 |
Where can I find a complete list of Heli-rappel crews (FS and BLM)? Only
R6 seems to provide information about them on the web, so it is tough for
those who don't live out West in the winter to get information. Any
help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
GK |
| 12/12 |
Dear R6FF
Thank you for your quick reply. Would you please offer my heartfelt
condolences to any of the families involved. The hard work and sacrifices
made by all concerned in the firefighting family are stupendous. If only
the rest of the world could work together like the firefighting family we
wouldn't need to be worried about anthrax, or anything else.
Jane |
| 12/12 |
Jane,
I am friends with the Craven family. I myself do not have a copy. I can
ask around for you. Or maybe talk with Tom's brother. I will try to look
into it for you.
R6FF |
| 12/12 |
Hi All,
I had intended to purchase the tape of the funeral for the four
firefighters but got side tracked by back surgery. Called the station in
Yakima but they don't have any left. As my granddaughter is a wildland
firefighter, am very interested---and very touched---by the activities.
Would anyone by chance have an extra tape of that funeral that I could
purchase??? I really appreciate your time looking into this as I know that
you are busy all the time. Thank you.
Jane |
| 12/11 |
I found a little info with the air tanker problems on the Portrero Fire.
According to sources, CDF-MVU placed an order for air tankers and it was
filled. Once up in the air and after their first couple loads, the pilots
where told to return to their home base, that they where grounded. This
came down from the CDF Regional Headquarters. The reason for this was due
to CDF's contract with the company that provides the pilots. Apparently,
the company contract had ended and the pilots where not being paid since
no contract was in effect. According to one of the pilots, they told
everyone involved that they would continue to fly for free until CDF and
the contracting company could come the some agreement. Unfortunately, CDF
could not let them fly due to liability issues of not having a current
contract.
Why the pilots were initially sent with no contract is unclear, except
that the pilots respond without question. They were aware that their
original contract had ended, but don't question contract issues when
called to duty, since some arrangements may have already been done without
their knowledge. According to one of the AT's, if they could have kept the
tankers, the fire could have been picked up at probably 100 acres. It is
not known if not having the tankers caused the structures to be lost.
Overall, limited resources and the high winds definitely contributed.
LagunaJim |
| 12/11 |
Sad to say in the 21st century, its all about MONEY. CDF Southern Region
should get all it deserves for closing fire season when there is less than
adequate rainfall. Fire season is strictly a financial decision now,
nothing to do with weather and climate like it used to be. In those times
a minimum of 2" of rain was necessary to close fire season. The
scientific basis of that criterion notwithstanding, it prevented
situations like this.
Anyone remember the Viejas fire last year. Same thing happened. So the
first bit of rainfall happens and no tankers, no dozers, no crews on the
weekends and lo and behold, winds and no resources to send. The air tanker
debacle I believe had to do with the fact that those planes had not flown
in six days and there is a maintenance issue that needs to be resolved
before they can fly. The second day of the fire they were available but
not needed. Kudos th the MVU firefighters for such great firefighting with
limited resources.
Fireball XL5 |
| 12/11 |
DRC
There was an issue similar to yours in the season of 2000. A prison
crew inmate was KIA and he left behind a 10 yr old girl I believe. The
dept of corrections is not required to hold insurance on the inmates that
fight fire. So to make a long story short, the girl was left with nothing.
Now being in the private sector myself, I know what you mean with the
whole segregation and being treated differently. As far as the benefits
that should be owed, I wouldnt bank on anything from the government. I
would check into the company he worked for. All companies are required to
have some sort of accidental death coverage. If they didnt, I would get a
lawyer.
Hope it helped and sorry to hear about the loss.
WAFF |
| 12/11 |
People are notoriously poor at risk assessment. Reason seems to be left
out ot the picture entirely. Some factors should be kept in mind.
1) San Diego (MVU is "Monte Vista Ranger Unit, a CDF Ranger Unit -
for those who did not understand that from Matt's posting) is normally out
of fire season by about the end of November.
2) This year has been only slightly drier than average for the date, and
the southern part of the state has had an unusually low fire incidence all
year.
3) Society benefits when money spent to reduce loss is the same as or
lower than the anticipated loss - Key word: "anticipated". It is
unfair to fault decision makers after the fact when the loss is known.
4)In all probability the decision to end fire season and reduce staffing
was the right one even in retrospect. Very likely the money saved is
greater than the loss that would have been prevented had the money been
spent. In all probability the home would have been lost anyway, and many
thousands of taxpayer dollars were saved via reduction of aircraft
contracts and staffing.
5) I don't know if California's budget picture had anything to do with the
decision to end fire season, but in all probability it didn't. If it did,
then someone fails in risk assessment.
Most readers of this site understand some or all of this, even if only
intuitively.
Michael |
| 12/11 |
Incident Name: Bell CDF-MVU started @1045 hrs. on Saturday. I believe
the Ranger unit had 7 type 3 engines covered. Normal for them would be
18-26 type 3 engines during fire season. MVU closed the season Dec. 3.
Cleveland N.F. had five type 3 covered. CNF provided 2 engines in the
initial CDF dispatch, and quickly a strike team was ordered from CNF which
included a FWS engine most on a call back. The winds felt more like in the
30 MPH range. Additional resources included strike teams of type 1 and 3
from RRU, BDU, BDF, ORC, San Diego City, North County, Heartland. ANF
provided engine coverage on the Cleveland N.F. Newspaper today stated
controlled at 1200 acres. How quickly we all forget last January's Viejas
Fire over 10,000 acres. Months of dry weather, strong Santa Ana winds,
budget driven fire season closure.
Rhino |
| 12/11 |
The fire that USFS FEO heard the rumor about was the Portrero Fire.
A fire began about 40 miles southeast of San Diego. A heater in a home
caught fire about 11 a.m. Saturday. Fire was carried outside. Fed by
strong 50 mph winds, it quickly became a fast moving brush fire and burned
at least 500 acres. (That's CDF - MVU jurisdiction.) The small town of
Potrero near the Mexican border was partially evacuated. Two homes and
some other structures burned. I heard it was up to 900 acres Sunday.
If you remember, CDF closed fire season some time ago, although knowing
Santa Ana wind season was approaching. News channels in San Diego slammed
them for not having enough engines staffed. Budget in CA is hurting
following 9/11 and the energy crunch. Long response times (up to 2.5 hr,
were there dispatch problems too?) resulted in the loss of structures. An
attorney was among those who lost a structure and criticizes CDF for not
being ready for the wind event it anticipated. CDF claims it's not MVU's
fault. Spin: MVU upstaffed engines, 24 hr coverage in the event of a fire,
things could have been much worse. Downside: CDF did not staff the entire
unit, aircraft, etc.
I don't know why the air tanker got turned around and grounded after
one drop at the beginning of the fire. I heard it was a contract issue --
but don't know... Contract- because the season was over already? Could it
have been a safety issue? Does anyone know? Regardless, people were
pissed. There has got to be some online news about the fire, it was all
over the 6 news networks down here.
Matt
PS, checked some of your news finding sites on the links page, ab, and
here are some links:
www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/1298201p-1366596c.html
www.nctimes.com/news/2001/20011210/54941.html
Hmmmmmmm, one CDF spokesperson said "3 ATs, 3 helos and about 500
firefighters were working to surround the fire". Maybe the air
support problems were early on... |
| 12/10 |
Mellie has sent in this summary of points from Saturday night's chat
with the FWFSA president. She says thanks to the prez for answering our
questions. Thanks to the prez for his excellent work on behalf of wildland
firefighters. Thanks to Bear for the lovely pointsettia decorations in the
chat room.
- Q: What are the hottest issues FWFSA is dealing with?
A: Legislation for federal wildland firefighters. We're having
a hard time getting a complete buy-in for the new bill that proposes
1) portal-to-portal pay and 2) that HP (hazard pay) be included as
basic pay for retirement annuity calculations. There's a new
administration and following Sept 11, Congress looks at everything
differently.
- Q: Is the version of the bill already created and in
Congress' hands?
A: Yes, we (FWFSA) initially create the bill. The draft of the
bill has been in the Congressionals' hands for some time. I sent in
some final changes via a phone call to a staffer last week. Regarding
the current bill, the portal-to-portal part of the bill is costing
more than previously thought because more firefighters are working
now. We expect it will cost about 86 million a year and that raises a
flag to Congress. The second part of the bill, HP inclusion as basic
pay for retirement annuity calcs, costs less than 2 million a year and
is probably acceptable.
- Q: What congressperson are you dealing with and what is the
process?
A: FWFSA is working with Congressman Pombo's office. He
introduced and championed the last bill that eliminated the overtime
pay cap. Most people who were affected by the pay cap elimination bill
don't even realize that FWFSA wrote it, had it introduced, worked to
let Congressionals know about it, testified before Congress and pushed
until it became law. Many think the Agency did it. You can thank the
members of FWFSA.
- Q: How often do you go to Washington and what is the
reception at the WO or do you even visit them?
A: I make one to two trips per year to DC, every March for the
Firefighter's Legislative Conference and periodically other times to
testify, etc. The WO is quite interested in our doings. They have been
in the audience when we testify to Congress, but I don't visit the WO.
I have met with the ex Secretary of Interior, the FEMA director, with
OPM and visited more than 100 congressional offices over the years.
- Q: How can the average firefighter make a difference?
A: The best thing you can do is offer your personal time.
Become a member of FWFSA, get with your chapter director and see how
your skills will work best for us. We're having a convention in
Sacramento on Dec 15. The convention info is at the FWFSA website
(link at the left top of the theysaid page). We're reviewing issues
and progress, entertaining any resolutions and electing officers.
- Q: Is it open to all?
A: It is open to all FWFSA members.
- Q: Is FWFSA only for R5 or is it national?
A: It's a national organization and can include employees of
BLM, BIA, NPS, FWS and USFS.
- Q: How many subscribe to FWFSA and what ratios are from each
of those agencies?
A: I think there are about 230 members, 90% of which are USFS
from R5. I say again, you can thank them for getting the first bill
through that eliminated the overtime pay cap.
- Q: Is anything being done to add new members from other
regions? If not, why not?
A: The current strategy for out-of-region recruitment, aside
from word of mouth and the web page, is that I go to workshops and
explain what FWFSA is. Mostly these are hot shot workshops, both
regional and national.
- Q: I sent in all my stuff and deductions are being taken out,
but I haven't received anything back. Should I do anything else?
A: Sorry for the delay on the information. We need help
providing better service. At FWFSA we're all volunteers and
firefighters.
- Q: Ab asked: We've had the FWFSA link up on theysaid for
about a year and the recurrent comment is the lack of response from
your website. Do you have any solution to that?
A: During fire season things are tough. Firefighters who run
FWFSA are out fighting fire. We need someone to help out who is not
gone so much. We will discuss that at this week's board meeting.
|
| 12/10 |
My 12-year-old's father was killed fighting fires in Idaho this summer.
I
have spoken with the National Fallen Firefighters' Foundation about
future help with college and they said that because Doug was on contract,
they would not be able to help my son. I don't understand why there
is no help for families of contract firefighters. Is there anyone out
there that
has been through this before who can explain to me why there isn't a
Foundation for Fallen Wildland firefighters who are on contract? Why
does the government treat them so different?
DRC |
| 12/10 |
The reason that you can not get on any of the Dept. of Interior web
sites is because the US
District Court ordered the DOI to shut down all internet services due to a
lawsuit involving
the security of data involved with Indian Trust Sites. Service was
supposed to be restored
last Friday, but as of Monday night it was still down. Yes, this does mean
that Quickhire and
all other BLM, BIA,and other DOI branches internet sites are down.
Hopefully, it will all be
cleared up soon.
On another note. I have some PDF recruitment notices for the Elko BLM Fire
program that I am
going to be putting on the web in the next couple days. I will post links
on "They Said" to
each notice after I upload them. The recruitment notices are for Elko
Helitack and the Ruby
Mountain Hotshots, and the positions are seasonal and will be filled using
Quickhire.
Dylan
Danny put up a link on 12/07 to an article that explains why the
sites were shut down. It's good to hear they'll likely be back up soon.
Ab. |
| 12/10 |
anyone have an idea when the fed sites will be back up?
later
eric
I'd like to know the answer to that, too. It is possible to get some
info from the FS website - especially the links
page can get you to some regional sit reports, at least those that are
being updated. Hey you Boise lurkers and readers, can you fill us in? Ab. |
| 12/10 |
USFS FEO,
Pierce has built a M 62, cloned off of a Boise Mobile engine. It is a
nearly exact copy, with a few refinements. R5 Fleet accepted Pierce as a
supplier of M62s, so both BME and Pierce will handle the buildup. I saw
and drove the Pierce prototype at the Regional Fire Equipment Meeting in
Reno last month. Nice truck. Having two suppliers will definitely speed
the MEL buildup.
NZ Capt. |
| 12/10 |
To answer USFS FEO's question,
I was up at the FireTec Reno Show and got it from the Pierce Rep at the
Convention Center. Pierce got the contract because they beat the price
that the other guys wanted for the 2WD Model 62 and 4WD Model 63. The
Model 62 was going for $172K and the FS placed an order of 55 new engines
for this year, and another 50+ engines for next year, of which Pierce will
be delivering the first 55 around Fire Season. He also informed me that
part of the reason for the mass purchase was that there was a rapid push
to remove the Model 42's from service.
MOC4546 |
| 12/10 |
'Lo all.
Thanks for the input on hand crew diff's. I wanted to relate a story
about Wildland vs struct. It may not settle any debate but it does address
the "should we stand by and watch" question.
One of my partners had an experience a few years ago. He was operating
a tractor plow on a large fire putting in his line when he came out of the
brush and smoke into a yard. The house was in the middle of the woods and
except for the fact that the back porch had already caught fire, was
pretty defensible. He wanted to save the house, but what to do??? Stop and
use the garden hose and let the fire run??? This ranger lowered his blade
and tore the porch off the house. We kid him about it now and then but
really, how clever!!!!! We usually don't have scba, or bunker gear, or
other equip for structure defense, but we all should have our most
important tool, our wit. I hate blanket statements "We never make
entry, We always do this or that". I agree with the earlier post that
said we weigh the gains vs risks & make a plan based on this. Who
knows what we would do when the time comes, all I hope is that I use my
head and chose my course wisely.
Be safe, Be well.
Flash in Florida |
| 12/09 |
Jim,
Give FEO a break. He/she does not need to go to work for some other
agency. I am proud to have FEO in Forest Service. It's people like this
who help the agency progress and give their employees a better work place.
I would bet, that his/her crew is one of the most trained crews on the
forest.
If you can't understand what we have been writing about for the past few
weeks, then you will never understand. Its comments like "go work
elsewhere" that get me real mad. This is the exact reason that we are
losing quality people to other agencies.
What do the qualifications you mention have to do with IA anyway? Even if
FEOs comments were from a second or third year seasonal, you should still
respect those comments, listen to what they have to say and have a civil
debate about it, instead of saying you should go work for another agency.
USFS FEO, to this R-5er, your comments and commitment to the Forest
Service is shining through, keep up the good work and as you already know
you're not the only one who has the same views and commitment to change
and progression.
I may be missing the point from Jim, but telling a fellow employee who is
raising important issues regarding IA on the interface to work for another
agency gets me fired up.
AnR-5er |
| 12/09 |
Hi All
Last year there was talk of Pierce taking over some or all of the
production of the Model 62 from BME, anybody heard anymore about this?
This issue of non-wildland fire is starting to turn into a yes we do, no
we don't. I had no idea it was so controversial. Others feel free to
continue. I'm happy to read what your thoughts are, but I've said enough.
So this is the last from me (unless I think of something else :-). Please
stop directing questions specifically at me. I'm starting to feel like a
theysaid hog. There are others who can answer some of this and it's hard
for me not to respond to a question directed at me.
So, Jim your solutions:
A. Join a Municipal FD
Starting to look into it, solves my problem as long as I keep my
recreation activities off the National Forests.
B. Work for CDF
Also starting to look into it, again solves my problem but is basically
sticking my head in the sand
C. Contract fire suppression to the State
Wouldn't save money. Federal law requires the same coverage and CDF costs
more, but if they did this, I guess CDF would have to hire a bunch of
people, hmmm see B.
D. Convert those Forests to National Parks
Ex president Clinton was working on this. It didn't go over so well. Take
a drive through some of the communities near the places he designated
National Monuments.
How much timber is harvested from those forests?
Not much, a little salvage and that is being reduced too.
Are those forests primarily recreation forests?
Yes, they are not allowed to do much else.
Have you ever been on a shot crew, helitack crew, or even a hand crew?
Are you qualified as a crew boss or Division Group Sup?
I don't see what it matters for this discussion but, yes, I am a crewboss
and strike team trainee, and I have worked crews as well as engines, no
shots or helitack. This topic primarily is related to initial attack
resources (engines, patrols) so I don't get the connection.
Hey -- to get something else going, I heard CDF had a fire yesterday and
grounded all their tankers over contracts while structures were lost.
Anyone have any further information?
USFS FEO |
| 12/09 |
hello all !
its been sometime since i have posted on here. no one told me teenagers
could make ones life so fun ! i have been trying to keep up with the
comments here. i could have sworn i saw this debate about fed agencies
responding to structural fires a while back.
in my humble opinion, anyone who is employed to fight wildland fire
should have at least basic structural fire training. why? because during
the course of a wildland fire, a structure could be involved. you may have
structural engines there. but if its a life and death situation, and the
structural folks just do not have the manpower to handle it, do you just
say " well we are not trained? ". that is unacceptable. as for
ppe, proper gear can be purchased and should be purchased for wildland
engine folks.
basic structural fire training should be done once a year. training can
be accomplished by working with the career or volunteer fire departments
in your area. this also fosters a good relationship with those departments
and you get to know and understand what they do and the same for them. you
get to know how they do things. you can also get them to understand how
wildland fire fighters do things. cross training is the way of the future.
just the same as for the structural fire fighters.
where would the structural folks be if they didnt get their ems
training? most emergency calls nowadays are ems related. so now most
structural departments require ems training. its called progressing with
the future. and this brings me to my next subject. all wildland fire
fighters should have ems training. the need for this speaks for itself.
most of the fed folks would be open to different types training and
responsibilities. this directive has to come from above. the policy
makers. sooner or later they will see the light and realize that wildland
fire is more then just more then trees, brush and so on. there are too
many structures being built in the wild. the interface problem is a
growing problem and is spreading faster then most agencies can handle. the
problems of the past should be a lesson and a reminder that we need to
grow with the interface problem. lets face the problem head on and be
proactive. end the whining and bitching and work together as state and fed
agencies. i have said it before, if we all put our heads together we can
come up with a solution to make this work. but, we need to work together !
i am not the most articulate of writers nor am i an expert on this, but
the interface is a passion of mine and i feel very stong about this. i am
sure i will get yelled at by some but thats why this forum is so great
because there are so many people on here that do care about the wildland
community.
ab,thanks again for creating this.
BC Davis
You're welcome, BC. Ab. |
| 12/09 |
USFS FEO
It seems to me the answer to your problem is;
A. Join a Municipal FD
B. Work for CDF
C. Contract fire suppression to the State
D. Convert those Forests to National Parks.
How much timber is harvested from those forests?
Are those forests primarily recreation forests?
Questions for you that may help me understand some of the things you are
writing about. See I'm an old fat guy and it takes me awhile to
comprehend the R5 whine (btw, I spent my early career on the Sequoia and
Sierra NF).
Have you ever been on a shot crew, helitack crew, or even a hand crew?
Are you qualified as a crew boss or Division Group Sup?
Jim |
| 12/08 |
There's been a request for a party in firechat tonight at 2100
Pacific Time (9PM). Come on down! Ab. |
| 12/08 |
I was just responding to the earlier post that made it sound so simple,
"stay within agency policy and you will be fine", because I
don't believe you will. At the very least, the morality of standing by
will follow you until you die.
It might look paranoid to you, but my point was that in our current
situation there is no acceptable choice. I don't think losing one of your
crew is acceptable, but to the public "firefighters" standing
around while people died would be more unacceptable. While an exterior
attack is not necessarily the most efficient method of suppressing a
structure fire, it is better than nothing and it is safer for the crew.
However it is not an option if the building is occupied because you will
very likely speed the process of killing those inside and if they have not
exited the building when you get there they probably can't do so alone.
Again we are left with two choices: standby and protect the trees or make
an interior attack. And basically we are left with two options 1). follow
agency policy and be partially responsible for the death of a member of
the public and the repercussions of that or 2). break agency policy
possibly saving a life, but knowing that any injury or death of your crew
will be blamed on you since it goes against agency policy.
I'm just pointing out that the agency policy needs to be reviewed to
bring it into the present. We don't just fight "forest fires"
anymore. We are putting policy decisions on people who's jobs should only
require the proper application of tactics -- not politics and morality --
while those at the top protect themselves behind an outdated policy. It
also prevents proper support to those on the ground.
I do know some forests are dealing with this situation more openly than
others. The four southern forests taking a lead in this and the Model 62's
can provide initial attack of structures at least enough to support a
rescue.
I know where I am we get dispatched for specific things (medical aid,
vehicle fire etc) rather than the euphemistic "request for aid"
described by others. So I guess we are ahead of them but that is still a
forest by forest and district by district thing. We are a National
organization and it seems like those at the top don't know what we
"really" do.
So to sum up what I meant:
NO, placing your crew at risk is not acceptable to me, but neither is
asking me to stand around while people die. So until the
"responsible" jurisdictions start putting fire stations on the
forest, I don't see any other choice than for the federal agencies to
accept additional duties.
USFS FEO |
| 12/08 |
The Jobs
Page and the Wildland Firefighter Job Series
0462 and 0455
have been updated. Ab. |
| 12/08 |
The question was "why go inside a structure fire when it can be
attacked
from the outside?". Reword it to ask why a wildland firefighter
attacks a
hot section of line instead of attacking from the outside (indirect). Use
the KISS principle when looking at fire and use the same mental process on
both so you don't get too confused. After 33 years, not always repeating
the same year again, I like to keep it simple.
Resources and capabilities, personal and organizational, determine how you
handle and event. I once had a BC from the City of San Francisco ask me
how
wildland firefighters could even deal with running major fires. I asked
him
how he dealt with major high rise fires. The principles are the same, you
hold the fire to the least size that you can based on resources,
capabilities,
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