DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Dec-01) Return to Archives Page
01/31	A few links from Firescribe: Durango new home for Hotshot crew Leroux Fire starters report for duty May 20
01/31	This message came in from Jim. Many thanks. FIRE SHELTER SAFETY ALERT http://regions.fss.gsa.gov/r07/7fx/products/firealert.cfm
01/30	Ab: I have sent a request to my old Fire District (Mountain View) here in Colorado. I asked them to contact as many Emergency Agencies in Colorado as possible, to send Krs Evans cards and patches. I will try to contact as many firefighters as possible and talk to my wife about her school kids also. Thanks CAFSman Sounds good. Ab.
01/30	A link to the Black Christmas Photo Gallery.  Some 40 meter flame lengths here. www.rfsa.org.au/gallery/index.htm OZ
01/30	Here's the URL for the Washington post internet forum regarding the federal job hiring process: http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/02/federaldiary013002.htm  I think the page is self-explanatory; you can submit questions or comments during the hour (0900-1000 PST) or you can submit them in advance - which is a good idea because these discussions can get pretty heavy traffic. One of the points I hope gets across is this: if the wastebasket emptyers across the country had serious concerns about federal hiring processes, it wouldn't be news. But firefighters are the heroes in this country, and fire affects pretty much everyone in this country. And it's going to get worse. Taxpayers CARE about firefighters and the hiring process is really a cluster right now. This needs fixing, fast. Firescribe Send in your questions and comments NOW in the next hour and a half! Ab.
01/30	I just wanted to give everyone a new mailing address for sending Krs Evans cards, letters, etc. As of 1/23/02, Krs has moved to the Craig Rehabilitation Hospital in Colorado. Best wishes can be sent to Krs at the following address: Craig Hospital 3425 S. Clarkson Street Englewood, CO 80110 This hospital is one of the premier "model systems" rehab centers in the nation and will be able to offer Krs some of the best rehabilitation services available. Please keep him in your thoughts. Thank you to all those who are involved in making contributions, organizing fund-raisers, and keeping his situation in mind. Casey Rice Acting SCP Human Resources Operations Team Ldr.
01/29	The Jobs Page, Series 0462, and 0455 are updated. Just keep getting bigger. Ab.
01/29	Ab, yes the Home Grown Instructions came straight from the R.O. just as I sent them to you. Ironic that the timing coincided with the discourse on the evil weed. Pulaski, I am pretty sure that they are starting the Home grown training library with the refresher stuff but I am pretty sure that it is going to go big real fast with alot of contributions from some folks that know how to build a good training presentation. If this thing is not managed right from the start however I think it could get cumbersome and become a pain as far as the upkeep and distribution goes. Also note that the instructions state that the person who builds and submits the training presentation is the one responsible for getting their product out to the folks who request it. One problem is that most folks' email systems can't receive large powerpoint presentations due to limited data storage size. So the likely fix is to burn cd's and mail them to your buds who want to use your course. That is all I know for now as I get more info I will post it here. Trainer
01/29	Ab and readers, I heard yesterday that the USFS was refusing to pay true overtime to members of the WTC incident (Pay Cap Issues). Hopefully by the time I'm writing this, it's a dead issue. I thought that the wording of HR 2814 and S.439 (the rider that was passed and signed by the PRESIDENT OF THE US of AMERICA) had the wording of wildland firefighters engaged in "emergency incidents" finally fixed that problem. (Fixed by the support and introduction of legislation by the Federal Wildland Fire Service Assoc. - FWFSA) I guess there is some confusion in the Agencies as to the wording of the LAW approved by congress and signed by the President. www.fwfsa.org FWFSA-Southern California
01/29	While we are on the topic of training, I have a question that I have been wondering about for quite a while. Are there any training requirements for contract dozer operators? I have faint second hand memories of hearing where just anybody that can run the dozer was put in the seat to work on a fire. If not does anyone as a normal routine do anything to train these cooperators? Pulaski
01/29	Thanks for letting me read about the "Fire World" out there. I figured it was time to have a word or too as well. I used to be a "Shot" for a couple of seasons and was injured on a fire late in the Fall, I feel that if I wasn't in the shape I had been in I would have died on the fire line. I greatly appreciated the crew for the enthusiasm they put into daily "P.T.s" I was always under the assumption that we were all there to be the best we can be.  I now work for an agency that sends out Type II crews on a continuous basis throughout the summer months and sometimes the fall months (Yes the Northern Region). If an individual is written up for poor performance (Physical), he/she is sent to stand before the "Man" as to why they were written up for their poor performance. If they are found to be of physical incompetence on the fire line, they are sent  down to be re-evaluated (Physical) again. Minor infractions are dealt with as well. A fire guy
01/29	Hi. This is directed toward any Australian firefighters: My name is Jessica Labranche. I live in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada. I was wondering if you could give me some information about who I could contact about working fire suppression in Australia. I completed my S-100 Training (Forest Firefighter Training Course), Workplace Hazardous Materials Information Training, Transportation of Dangerous Goods Training, First Aid and Basic Rescue Training in 1999 and a yearly pre-fit (physical examination). These are the requirements for becoming a fire ranger in Ontario. I've worked for the Ministry of Natural Resources, Ontario's government agency in charge of fire suppression, as a crew member from May through August of 2001 and participated in numerous initial attacks on forest fires across  the province. I'm looking to possibly work in Australia your next fire season (November to April???). Could you supply me with information regarding the agency I should contact. Also I'm interested in information about your pre-job physical (passing requirements). I can be reached at this email address labranche1@sympatico.ca Your assistance would be appreciated. Sincerely Jessica
01/29	Hi Ab I am an instructor at Allan Hancock College in Santa Maria, CA. The college offers AS degrees in Wildland Fire Technology. Here is an excerpt from the college catalogue: Wildland Fire Technology The Wildland Fire Technology curriculum offers a variety of options that provide students with multi-component proficiency training for employment with wildland firefighting agencies. Programs are available in Wildland Firefighting Operations, Wildland Firefighting Prevention, Investigation, Prescribed burning, and Wildland Firefighting Logistics, Finance, Planning. The core and prerequisite courses for all options are listed below. Students should contact the program coordinator for information regarding the specific courses necessary for the completion of each option. 101 Wildland Fire Behavior (3) Three hours lecture weekly. Prerequisite: Wildland Fire Technology 302. Acceptable for Credit: CSU A study of wildland fire behavior including influences and wildland fire environment factors that lead to making fire behavior predictions. Skills necessary to make spot fire behavior predictions will also be covered. (GR) (S) 102 Wildland Firefighter Safety and Survival (3) Three hours lecture weekly. Prerequisite: Wildland Fire Technology 302. An exploration of the situations ad conditions that result in fire shelter deployments, serious injuries and fatalities for wildland firefighters. (GR) (F) 103 Wildland Fire Operations (3) Three hours lecture weekly. Prerequisite: Wildland Fire Technology 302. Acceptable for Credit: CSU An exploration of the command structure and operational processes for ground and air operations in the control of wildland fires. (GR) (S) The three courses listed here are on-line courses available for registration right now. Several NWCG certificates can be obtained by completing these courses. Also, these are three of the core courses that are required for any of the three Wildland Fire Degrees offered by Allan Hancock College. Here is a link to the AHC web site and page containing information on the Fire Technology Program. http://www.hancockcollege.edu/body.asp?ID=343  Can you post this link and my email address as a contact? I will develop a special information page and give you that link also in the next couple of days. Thanks, Dan Ardoin Chief of Operations, Vandenberg Fire Department Associate Faculty Member, Allan Hancock College  dan.ardoin@verizon.net
01/29	To R-5 recruiter for fire: THANKS for your post. It's people like you, who have figured out how to use a VARIETY OF MEDIA and comms channels, for recruitment and PR and news and communications, who will survive and flourish in the next few years. High fives to you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately for all of us, ALL the agencies are still behind the times when it comes to effectively using what's available for all the above. (I'm not even going to get started on the top two acronyms for incompetency lately in this regard, those being ASAP and DOI.) It's people like you who keep the agencies and programs and local units from drowning in the overall agency inability to get with the real world! I very much hope you participate in the Washington Post online thing Wednesday. And yes, it's noon EASTERN TIME, so for you left-coasters it would be 0900. Be there or be square. Firescribe
01/29	Trainer,  Well, Ill be dipped! Thats great! ...but...why are they only asking for any "refresher" type training and not what folks have put together for the canned S & I courses? pulaski
01/29	MGM,  Your situation is unfortunate. But I feel you did the right thing. I would also say that those on your forest in the higher positions would agree as well. It takes someone with integrity and strength to stand up for what is right. It seems to me that in your situation the LEO may have acted to fast. One, as a witness, your name should have been kept private. A little more investigation should have been done first. Especially with a supervisor. A (random) drug test would have been much easier to do. Although I do agree working with this person (if he knows it was you) would be difficult. However, one thing in the forest service that is really not tolerated is reprisals. I would agree with Backburnfs, if you feel you need to move on, then do so proudly. But, if I where you, I would look into your union and ask where is your forest support? firejim
01/29	"anon IHC guy" asked: <<How do they deal with slackers and slugs? Get rid of them? Force them into compliance with fitness standards? Help them along till they're fit enough to be safe and not be a risk? I'd appreciate input from the non-hotshot folks on this subject.>> The usual procedure on our (CDF) Inmate-Firefighter Crews (all Type 1) is to document poor performance until sufficient documentation exists to "roll them up". This is undoubtedly easier with inmate firefighters than it is with union-represented paid staff. Two levels of screening consisting of first Cal Dept. of Corrections rather liberal weeding-out process, then a bit more rigorous regimen at CDF's two-week training serves to eliminate the main slackers. Then it's up to the Captain CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande
01/28	I was reading the board and saw a comment about Los Padres NF in particular. And I just want to send this out as a thank you to the folks over there. THANKS! If anyone needs help, the people who work recruitment there have been wonderful to me! Heck, one of them is sending me the questions for the Form C, which has been the source of my troubles to begin with. -NCFF
01/28	Pappy said some interesting things about "if you aren't paying me you can't tell me what to do" and how he tells crew members what he expects and that he expects them to abide by that. Along the same lines, I hear through the grapevine that some shot supes were called on the carpet this year by the union about how they enforced fitness standards, bringing up the not-new argument about how "if you're not fit enough to stay up with the rest of the crew, then you're endangering us all." From what I hear, a union rep or two didn't like the idea that slackers were pushed hard-from a safety standpoint-into either keeping up during PT or finding another line of work or getting into shape enough to keep up and stop endangering others. I know how this works in hotshot circles, and I have to say I agree with that and disagree (for once) with the union, but I'm wondering how this applies on other non-hotshot crews. How do they deal with slackers and slugs? Get rid of them? Force them into compliance with fitness standards? Help them along till they're fit enough to be safe and not be a risk? I'd appreciate input from the non-hotshot folks on this subject. anon IHC guy
01/28	Has anyone out there got any info on "Synergy2000?" Ran across their application for "Wildland HotshotFire Fighters and Engine Crews" on the internet. Never heard of them, so a little curious about them! Stu
01/28	Been seeing some posts about training courses that folks have made and where to make them available. NIFC is building a website to catalog these training courses and here are the instructions. Home Grown Instructions trainer Hey trainer, did you supply the title or is that the way the instructions came? In light of the current discussion, it seems wonderfully ironic. Ab.
01/28	Hello Everybody, I hope that you are all enjoying your "Slow" time of the year. I have been reading this ongoing talk about what you can and can't do while on assignment while your are not getting paid. Often you hear talk on crews about "if you aren't paying me you can't tell me what to do". I tell my crew people exactly what I expect from each of them at the beginning of the year and each and every day. I also tell them that they will hear other people say that I can't tell them what to do unless I am paying them and that technically they are right, BUT, it is also my choice who I will or won't take responsibility for on off-district assignments. If they choose to not respect my wishes they will not go off again with me. NO Exceptions!!! So far it has been very effective. On the hiring process...BEWARE!!!! I recently heard that two guys I know recently certed out as GS-8's "on the demo certs" and last year they worked as a 4 and 5 and neither are even crew boss rated. Apparently the new process is easy to manipulate. Just wanted to issue a warning to all unsuspecting employers out there. Take care and have a great day!! Thanks for the ongoing service AB, your time and dedication is really appreciated. Be Safe, Pappy Thanks Pappy. Ab.
01/28	Firescribe, In regard to your comments about hiring and recruiting. We on the Los Padres National Forest have an active recruitment program going on right now. We have had three open houses on the Forest this year already, we have outreached to 100s of people in a short amount of time. We advertise on the net, newspapers and by foot, posting fliers. We have helped out people from all over the US having problems with the ASAP process, by sending them information by the Internet and by mail. We do all this while working off our fire budget and having limited funding for advertisement and supplies. We started our recruitment program last year and have watched it grow and bring in quality people who love working for the agency. Give everybody a reminder before the session starts, I think there will be a big turnout due to the questions and comments we get everyday. Please don't take from my comments that I think our Forest is better then all the rest. We are just trying to do something to help out the Agency and show how much we really care and love our jobs. I hope there will be a big turn out for this on-line discussion. I too think there is a big need for recruitment. R-5 recruiter for fire Recruitment doesn't help if the application and hiring process is screwed up. This Ab thinks there is a big need for a better hiring process out of Boise/WO. Of course we need all others to keep up the  good work as well. Programs like yours help.
01/28	MGM,  Sorry things didn't work out the way they should have, my opinion is you did the right thing. If you are getting backlash for doing the right thing that is just as bad as the original offense and you should go to the Union and make a grievance, doesn't sound like you have anything to loose. If you are already convinced that the best thing to do is move on then go for it, maybe you will get to work on a unit hat has some integrity. Our justice system is imperfect but it is still better than the other 99% of the world, think about how the LEO guys must feel when the bad guys get off on a technicality I hope you can stop second guessing yourself and realize that you stood for something and you tried to make a difference. I know a lot of people out there respect you for the decision you made and would be happy to have a person with your convictions and guts working with them. Hang in there. Backburnfs.
01/28	I want to second what SoCalCapt has said about Foresters and Fire Wardens. I have been going to this little conference for 20 years and I have met many of the Luminaries of the wildland fire business in a small setting and the presentations are always current and pertinent to us knuckle-draggers. And in many cases I have found Chiefs and Agency heads etc to be very approachable under these conditions. So if you live anywhere south of Fresno I highly recommend it, its worth the drive and you can't beat the price for what you get. Captain 1835
01/28	Does the government need to revamp its hiring practices? Can it recruit the talent it needs to replace the thousands of employees who will retire over the next four years? The Washington Post will host Max Stier, president of the Partnership for Public Service, with an online session for questions and comments at noon Wednesday on Federal Diary Live at www.washingtonpost.com - maybe the troubles with firefighter hiring could gain a wider audience and a possibility for solution if some fire people joined this session and posted questions and comments to Stier and the Post. Firescribe Is that Eastern time? Could you please send in a reminder on Wed morning? Ab.

01/28	Thanks for your input: This happened at the end of the 2001 season: To make a long story short, I found overhead with a bag of weed, I went to his boss, it ended up at the Law Enforcement Level with me having to sign a report and be a Witness. The accused was given a Citation and Fired for this offense. Both of these were later changed because of lack of evidence (my seeing it was apparently not enough to the Union guy but was to the LE), so it was fought and he ended up winning and now *I* am the one having to transfer off my forest because I'd still have to work around this person who happens to be a squad leader. Was it worth it after the outcome? Being the crew narc or doing this in the best interest of my crew. My opinion now, should have left it (i know this is not right) and just worked under him second guessing all of his orders. MGM
01/28	The Southern California Assoc. of Foresters and Fire Wardens page has been updated and has info on the upcoming conference and golf tournament. Hope everyone has the chance to attend. Looks like great presentations again& this year as well as the grueling and sometimes funny golf tournament. It's not your typical conference. Take all of your REGULAR fire conferences and add the wildland fire touch... You have to attend to understand... Hope to see you all there.... Here's the link: http://users.tminet.com/rreiswig/ffw.html  SoCalCapt
01/28	I love to smoke a little now and again. But if your puffing on Uncle Sam's dime or his property, (and the last time I checked the crew buggy belongs to him) you are toast. I also would never smoke on the line. I agree with the others, if you can't stay sober for 14 days find something else to do. Granted we don't make a lotta money, but to risk it for a buzz is stupid. I've worked way to hard for this job to puff it away in the back of a crew buggy. I think CDF has the right idea, pay portal to portal. No gray area there!! LY
01/27	I would like to take a minute and recognize about 250 people that showed for the Krs Evans Fund bowling tournament in Oroville today. There were reps from 6 hotshot crews ( PNFIHC, TNFIHC, KNFIHC, MNFIHC, ENFIHC, RDDIHC) reps from Oroville City Fire and too many to mention friends, concerned citizens and retiree's (Yep, even Jim and Kathy Klump). The FWS sent in a generous contribution and the USFS Fire Academy students raised $800.00. A big congrats to Joann Mathews and Rich Simon for the idea and to all the others (you know who you are) for the extra effort. Who say's we're not a family. God Bless............ GP Ab adds, if anyone would like to send in a contribution, the address is Krystofer Evans Fund c/o Placer Sierra Bank P.O. Box 780 Quincy, CA 95971
01/27	Winter is fickle in Southern California.  500 firefighters responded to a 120 acre brush fire in the Cleveland National Forest/Orange County during the last few days. Starting under heavy Santa Ana winds, the fire briefly threatened 40 historic cabin structures in Holy Jim Canyon. Fortunately, the fire was deep in the bottom of Trabuco Canyon and winds were erratic. The steep terrain shielded the fire from direct 50 mph winds and this alleviated what could have been catastrophic spread in heavy chaparral fuels. Firefighters from the Orange County Fire Authority led the initial attack. Due to the off-fire season, the Forest Service mustered over 24 hours.  In addition to Orange County, the fire was was staffed with resources from CDF and Los Angeles County Fire. Six helicopters including LA County's new black hawk chipped in. Proving once again, Southern California can have a 13 month fire season. According to one senior LA County Crew Supervisor, "It may have been small but It's all we got!"  Since it looks like rain outside today, this memory will have to keep us all going till season begins again in the spring. Contract County Guy
01/27	MGM, Bottom line, as Government employees it is against policy/illegal to do any illicit drugs while on duty, period. This is a fireable offence, zero tolerance. I have dealt with these issues a few times with coworkers. The problem is that folks do this in the off season, then it becomes after work, then it's around the corner on lunch to on a secluded part of a fire. As an agency, it has taken us several years to get past the druggy look and be recognized as a professional organization. but, it takes a small few to ruin that image. Not to mention the safety aspects of working with someone who's thought process is impaired when quick actions are needed. Your best action is to talk to your supervisor in private. But don't expect immediate results. With everything, observations and documentation need to be followed through. Most likely your not the only one on the crew who feels as you do. Do yourself, your coworkers and the agency a favor, report it. As far as off the clock on fires goes, the only real control supervisors will have is Portal to Portal. So if you're not involved with FWFSA join NOW! firejim
01/27	One last shot at the MEA. It sounds as if this is indeed age related and maybe a class action law suit by all parties should be made by the American Civil Liberties Union. In Fed- Week last year I read that the Dept. of State was letting all of their converted temps. buy all of their time back that was accumulated after 1988. If this is true then it has set a legal basis for letting all federal temp. workers buy theirs back as well. I hope it is so because too many good, reliable, and skilled valuable employees are getting screwed by the system. Hope all are chillin well over the winter. RH in Medford
01/27	The number one thing, is "weed" (haven't heard that term since the seventies) is illegal no matter when, where or your excuse for using it. As for the drinking, it's all according to how much you drink and when. If you are on-call and can return to the fire at any time, it is totally off limits. If you have at least 12 hours before you're back on the fireline, a beer or two is probably ok. But, I did say a beer or two. Not falling-down staggering-drunk beer drinking. Hangovers aren't good on the fireline either.  If you are using drugs and not seeking help right now, you don't belong in this business at all. You need to pull back and get help before your life falls apart. You are a severe safety hazard not only to yourself, but all those around you. If you can't drink in moderation, you don't belong on the fireline either. It's just another bad addiction you need help for. Whether under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you are a liability to your crew, Mgt, and all others who depend on you, INCLUDING YOUR FAMILY. Those of us who have families are depended on by them. Why would you want to break your family's hearts and trust for a little high times. It isn't worth it. There are lot worse jobs out there, and if you get caught and fired due to illegal drug use, you will be lucky if you can get a job shoveling horse crap at a run down stable. It will follow you for life. Be smart and don't throw your life away supporting a trafficker. The money you give him may end up buying more drugs for his next stop. Where is that next stop, could it be our kids bus stop or school yard? Don't destroy yourself and your loved ones. It's not worth anything. Ranger-
01/27	From Firescribe: What in blazes has the Phoenix fire chief done? Create a model for managers.  www.arizonarepublic.com
01/27	And There I Was, Which is it, "what you do after hours is up to you" or "working on the line you need to be at your best"?  For debating discussion, if you are doing drugs off duty on fires your whole crew should be sent home immediately no questions asked. What you will find is the other guys on the crew are not going to be to happy with you and you will probably get a beating for costing them money and DISRESPECTING the crew. Wake up everybody who says it's OK to do what you want on fires when you are off duty. You are a guest to the people who live in those towns we visit each summer, you work for a respectful profession so act like it, not only do you disrespect the crew you are with, but you disrespect the agency and the people who work here. If you have that much of a need to smoke weed while you are gone on fires, like I have read here already, look for a different profession, period end of story. An-R5er
01/27	Eric PW, All we hear is talk, nothing substantial. The question is "are there going  to be cutbacks" is the same kind of question as "when is the first project  fire."  We heard there was a proposal to cut all WA State employees salaries by 5%,  don't see that happening yet. But anything is possible....Stay tuned. WP
01/27	hey  i went to the open house in Santa Maria CA to hear about the 2002 FireFighting season and they were real helpful. Michael S. is a great guy. Los Padres forestry is a place to work. Tombo
01/26	Backburnfs, I'm past the age of being able to die young also but I also don't want to die old and miss all the winter hours with the new grandbaby. I love my job driving fire crews but am uneasy sometimes with what what I know probably goes on with SW and other crews. I wish we had drug testing so I didn't have to play cop - wonder whether I should play cop. It's weird to think you might get stabbed to death because of a disagreement with a drunk crew boss - or one on drugs. I understand why MGM asked the question about pot on their crew. I think those of us in other roles have trouble asking the same question for other reasons. There is more than safety on the fire line at stake here. Ab, thanks for the board and thanks for not posting my real name. And yes - if I knew for sure that there was drug or alcohol use - I would speak up. I have. Joy You're more than welcome. Ab.
01/26	Lo all. Fist of the heavy snow is falling on my back yard. Have to cross Snoqualmie pass tonight too. Was wondering if anyone has heard of any cutbacks at WADNR from the budget fallout. We Testified at senate hearings for the Natural resources committee in Olympia. They were talking reducing numbers then. Have fun all, later eric PW
01/25	What you do after hours is up to you. If you are being paid portal to portal (24/7), or staying on Agency property, then they can regulate what you do. Even then I have seen those that get portal to portal pay imbibing when they were at their motel. This has come up before when they have had closed fire camps and kept people from going into town. Out in the middle of nowhere this is not much of a problem, as the nearest bar is too far to walk to. There has been discussion to pay portal to portal so there can be more control over folks while off duty, but it has only been discussion. People will be people, get a few hundred together and there will always be problems. That said, working on the line you need to be at your best, not only for your own safety but also those around you. The work, heat, and terrain can result in accidents from fatigue (physical and mental) caused by the night before. And There I Was
01/25	Joy, I am not looking to die young (oops, too late for that), but if somebody is gonna kill me 'cause I narced them off for smokin' or drinkin' then I guess I'll see Jesus a little sooner than I had planned. I am not going to stop doing what I think is right so I can live a little longer, that would make a guy a coward or hypocrite or something worse. If we have come to that point in "civilization" then it's too late anyway, and we might as well go Downhill-Indirect every chance we get and get it over with. But I don't think it is that bad yet, or, maybe it is and I am just too dumb to know it. Backburnfs
01/25	Marijuana: I cannot believe this is even an issue! What part of the phrase "Zero Tolerance" do you not understand? Use illegal drugs and get fired. End of discussion. And don't go cryin' to the Union. They'll support management on this one. Gordon
01/25	Ab and Dana, I did a quick poll of what I have (both fire training and prevention stuff) and it comes to ~35MB. The frustrating part of this is that it doesnt have to be so difficult. I dont think we have to wait for "someone" to do it "officially" (put together ppt shows). The fact is that people are doing them now, all that needs to be set up is a place to put them where people can submit what they have done and have them available to download (take it as it is/for what its worth) from the net. The only cost, from the government's side would be that somebody would need to administer the stuff as it comes in and maybe do a little quality/duplication control, definitely not a full time job. pulaski Pulaski, I agree with you about how easy Boise could do it. Having them host such a library would be best. Right now we're OK on space. Let's continue to work on whether there are other ppts that we should put up as space allows. Thanks for the offer, Dana, we'll keep your option in mind when things get tight. Someone who is working on a S-212 ppt wrote in yesterday asking about sawyer, swamper, chainsaw, cut tree pics. There are a few photos on the site here. We don't really want to add a whole lot more. But if those of you who teach 212 have some photos that you use in your ppts and are willing to share, please let me know. Ab.
01/25	Does anyone know how I can get ahold of an old FS video on fireline construction with chain saws? I looked in the video catalog and didn't see it. I have also heard some Saw Doggies are  making a new one this year. Anyone know about where to get either video? Fire Wolf
01/25	I try to speak in absolutes as rarely as possible. Safety is one of those situations where I feel more comfortable in doing so. When it comes to substance abuse, whether your drug of choice is marijuana, alcohol or whatever......these substances are banned from fire camp. Weed is illegal. Put your social values aside and focus on safety. If you are willing to compromise safety to protect your co-workers then please, get the hell outta Dodge. If you are too afraid for your personal safety to call attention to violations that could endanger others, then please take the road home, and don't come back. Some years back I was involved with a situation where there was evidence beer was being consumed by some of our fly guys. The pilot (wanting to be the "hero") claimed no crew members had been drinking, that the entire 12 pack was consumed by him the previous evening. The crew said they didn't want to rat out the pilot. In the end, we sent them all home. I don't want to fly with a drunk. I don't want anyone on the team that would conceal that I was flying with a drunk. There are some absolutes. Safety is one. Either comply or leave. Old Fire Guy
01/25	Ab wrote: Hopefully the govt will get some that meet NWCG standards up on one internet site one of these days. hahahahahahahaha Seems to me they have to get any DOI fire site up first! Geesh. BTW, thanks for keeping up with linking to the rtf sit reports every Friday. It's great that the FS has picked up the ball on posting those. On a more serious note: Joy, I also heard about a marijuana-related murder on a large Klamath fire years ago when I was looking into Dick Blood's murder. Does anyone have more info on the Klamath or Blood murders? Another question. How do you bus drivers out there decide what to report and what not to report. I'm sure you all see and hear lots of different things as you ferry crews around. Mellie I'm glad you appreciated Ab's humor. Best go see if the weekly sit report is out now and change the links page. OK, new one is up. Ab.
01/25	Pulaski, re: ppt programs I agree that the Govt. (having all the resources it has purchased with our tax dollars) SHOULD be way ahead of us on providing ppt. training aids. But if we wait for the govt. to do it we may be too old to see any benefit...probably be obsolete by then anyway (both the ppt and self). If you can tell me how much space will be needed I may have a place to put them for public access that will not place an added cost/burden on the Abs. I am willing to be part of the solution. Dana Linscott VC MWFA linscott@rea-alp.com
01/25	OK, reefer is illegal, clearly, and its procurement even resulted in death of a bus driver (or some other support person?) on a large incident on the Klamath many years ago. Sorry for my imperfect memory. What about alcohol? Use by a Native American crew boss may have been involved in the death of the bus driver who opposed that use in Anderson CA two years ago. But those may be more extreme cases of use. What about casual alcohol use in barracks after official hours? Maybe this is all more of a case by case determination with alcohol... So Backburnfs, how do you report something when the people you're fingering might do you in? Joy
01/25	Hi Ab! MGM, Its easy for everyone to get preachy "drugs are illegal, you should report them" Honestly, its probably going to be a harder decision than that. These are your coworkers, your buds, (no pun) But consider this, if a couple of your partners get busted, even off duty, can you do your job without them?? If they make up components of (for example) a type six engine team, you will be left high and dry unable to work because they were in jail. I think I would consider discussing their recreational use with them and mention how it might impact you and your income. Especially if there is one of them you feel you can talk with privately. If that failed then I would consider my other options. With me, people either really like me or really don't. (Opening for cheap shots) because I am outspoken. If you piss me off you won't hear about if from some guy who heard it from your buddy who heard it from... etc. I will take you aside and address it man to man. Once dealt with its forgotten. Step up, confront (not hostilely, just bluntly honest) your coworker, and then deal with it. Yes, if this is uncomfortable for you do speak with your supervisor... and follow all the other advise already given. Good Luck Dude. Flash in Fla
01/25	Hey Pulaski, I've thought about shifting my moniker to tractor plow. Abbette.

01/25	-US FEO: Hey, even if it was sarcasm aimed at me...'ah dont give a hoot! .. It would just bounce off my callused skin. ...and don't fret US FEO, its the same pile everywhere, just a different color or not as many layers (or more). - My point was, all this "stuff" should be in one place instead of searching all over blazes for it. Yes, They Said has a great collection of photos and a modest pot of ppt programs. BUT, the Ab family has enough to do just keepin this site up to date (all for free for the users I might add) and (I feel at least) it should be a govt agency (the ones who put together and require the training) who should provide this not a private group. - RE: MGM and the wacky weed question. Whats been said as a reply fits the bill, the only thing I have to add is that if a person cant go without their favorite illegal vice for a couple of days or weeks, mebbe they should look for a different job. ....I hear McDonalds is lookin for help. -The age issue: Like everything else in life its not a black and white issue. I feel for the folks who have put years in as a seasonal. (and ya, I was one of those who gave up in the 80's and went elsewhere as the USFS was in the big hiring drought). There was a comment somewhere about the "old geezers" (My term, meant in fun so nobody get your knickers in a knot) should get out to bring in the fresh blood. Excellent points have been made by many different folks on all aspects of this age/retirement issue. Bottom line to me is back to the individual, and as I said its not black and white. In the past 5 years or so in my area I can look at two individuals who have retired. To one I felt grateful that he pulled the plug as soon as he could as he had pretty much been retired for a long time anyway and didn't "mentor" one iota to the younger guys. The other person I cringed that he decided to go as he was a tremendous leader and mentor. -Ab, Really?? People have wanted my name?? HA oh well... I have entertained changin it to somethin else but am cautious of the local teasin, pimping etc if I use a name closer to home. And while I'm on the anonymous nickname theme...(and this is directed to you iceman, as you whined about it a while ago) I see nothing wrong and even benefits to remaining anonymous on the board. I can see some MGT types making life difficult for those who openly discuss/slam touchy subjects here and some folks just don't want to get the ribbing from peers for posting on the board. I have posted with my real name, agency when needed or appropriate but I like not having to expose myself if I'm not of the mind too. Well..sheesh! ..this is way to long...and nobody can make heads or tails of it anywho. Thanks for the great site/service Abs!! Pulaski Thanks for the thanks Pulaski and thanks for your help. Powerpoints take up a lot of room and will probably be the first thing to go when we get into a space crunch. In the meantime, it's OK to have them here. Hopefully the govt will get some that meet NWCG standards up on one internet site one of these days. Ab.
01/25	Several people offered or sent in the lces ppt. Thanks Pulaski, NorCal Tom and FtBragg. I put up a version from 2000. Luckily it is a small one. Thanks also to Hickman for the S131. Ab.
01/24	Here's an online article reviewing actions on and after Sept 11 in NYC. It says wildland fire teams working there after 9/11 knew how to manage such a large incident and the key is the Incident Command System. I know wildland fire training helped me be a better IC. The part of the article about how well the teams managed the incident in NYC makes me proud to know and learn from Wildland folks. Thanks CAFSman Thanks for writing in CAFSman. The Lessons Learned stage... Ab.
01/24	MGM. If I am not mistaken Marijuana is still an illegal drug, therefore if you're smoking it on or off the fireline it is a law enforcement as well as a safety and moral concern. CDL rules say that you have to take a drug test before you get your license. After you get one you are subject to random testing so that takes care of a lot of people's urge to get loaded, since it could have some definite affect on your being able to hold a license to drive heavy vehicles. I think the DOI requires all firefighters to submit to a drug test before they get hired, but I could be mistaken. That leaves the rest of the firefighters, State, Contract and Federal (FS) out there untested and on their honor not to be using drugs (including alcohol) when they are working, driving or hanging around firecamp or the station after hours. I tell my crewpeople that they are representing the Govt., themselves and more importantly "THE CREW" when they are on the road. If they can't go 14 days without needing to drink, snort, smoke or shoot-up their favorite intoxicant, they need to find another line of work. If they show up to go on a dispatch after drinking I will leave them home. If they get caught doing ANY illegal activity (including drugs) I will just let the Law Dogs deal with them, people gotta be responsible for the choices they make and I don't have time to be their baby-sitter. If one of my co-workers comes to me because they want help with their substance abuse problem before they get busted, fired or dead I will go out of my way to see that they get treated with the respect they deserve and do everything I can to help them. May sound a bit tough but it ain't the 70's and we all gotta grow up sometime. Backburnfs
01/24	MGM, Report drug use right away to your supervisor. The supervisor will gather information and hopefully will get documentation and all the ducks lined up before acting so there can be a serious consequence. The Forest Service does not do random drug tests, so we need to be on our toes. In the past for drug use reported to me, I let my ranger know and informed the LEO who took over. Marijuana is an illegal drug. (Some rangers or personnel people may not want to bring in the law right away but I think it necessary.) With drugs on the job, on the way home or in the barracks, here's what I understand happens these days. It can be a process and requires 2 trained evaluators. People on our forest are having training prior to this next season so this evaluation part is a new and untried process for me.  After a person is reported... two fire supervisors do a quick evaluation (eyes, coordination, etc). These evaluators must have a 2-3 hour training and be certified evaluators - capts, divs, bat chiefs who ever is above the person. If the person is deemed under the influence, they go in for a drug test (urine test). I think there must be permission from the Regional Office for that. The system takes it from there. I encourage you to speak up. People who do drugs on the job or in transit put themselves and their crew at risk. For safety sake we all need to be responsible for our actions and speak up on the wrong actions of those around us. We need to be able to depend on each other. You can speak to your supervisor privately. Fire Wolf
01/24	Great Safety Message, author unknown: I Chose To Look The Other Way I could have saved a life that day, But I chose to look the other way. It wasn't that I didn't care, I had the time, and I was there. But I didn't want to seem a fool, Or argue over a safety rule. I knew he'd done the job before, If I called it wrong, he might get sore. The chances didn't seem that bad, I've done the same, he knew I had. So I shook my head and walked on by, He knew the risks as well as I. He took a chance, I closed an eye, And with that act I let him die. I could have saved a life that day, But I chose to look the other way. Now every time I see his wife, I'll know I should have saved his life. That guilt is something I must bear, But it isn't something you need to share. If you see a risk that others take, That puts their health or life at stake, The question asked, or the thing you say, Could help them live another day. If you see a risk and walk away, Then hope you never have to say, I could have saved a life that day, But I chose to look the other way.
01/24	MGM, I have never been put in this situation before but here is what i think. I think that if what they are doing affects their work effort it should be reported through the chain of command. If at anytime there is any safety issue involved i would act on it immediately. If it is not affecting anything (except breaking the law) i would leave it be because reporting it would not help the crew get along. I hope that that might help a little. stay safe AC
01/24	I just put up the new revised version of Part 1 of S-190 on the Programs page. Thanks Pulaski for your revisions. It's half the size of the original. Also put up the 10-slide ppt review of I-100, intro to ICS. Again, compliments of Pulaski. Unfortunately the DOI site is down so there is no access to the LCES course via our programs page. If anyone needs that one, you can write in here and perhaps we can put you in touch with someone who has it from last year. Ab.
01/24	I guess my sarcasm wasn't obvious, it wasn't directed at Pulaski more at the fact that once again an outside source had provided the solution to a problem the government hasn't even acknowledged yet. Basically the programs page and photos page does what Pulaski was suggesting, give the feds a few more years and they will probably start a committee to evaluate methods of power pointing training. The Federal Government should be leading the way we certainly have the ability and resources but unfortunately our wonderful leadership is content to follow in the wake of others. USFS FEO
01/24	Was curious on everyone's input on Marijuana smoking among firefighter during the season on AND off work hours. The crew i worked for this year seemed to think it was okay so smoke after work and on the way home from fires. What are your responses to this, and what would you do if you confronted this situation. IE catching your crewmember doing this? MGM
01/24	Mr. Mouse, In order to best simulate the likely condition of a chain saw in use I filled the tank about 3/4 full. I don't think it matters much though as my real point was that anyone standing by or passing near a "tossed" saw when it actually reaches the critical temperature needed to "burst into flame" is either already aflame themselves or superman. I don't want to discourage firefighters from thinking about each others welfare but at the time when you need to consider "should I drop and run" I don't want you to consider anything else for very long. In general we tend not to run away from fire but rather to hang around a bit too long for our own good. No one will shed tears over   chainsaw that burns up if firefighters decide its' time to run for their life. On the other hand we all die a bit when we hear the words "firefighter fatality". Of course if you are throwing a few saws away every season...it may be time to look for a new line of work. Pulaski, How "large" are these Powerpoint files? I may have a free place on the web to stick them. Fireronin
01/24	Climber My advice is always talk to the people in the areas you are interested in working. For choosing locations there are two ways to go, call various places and see what kind of reaction you get, if they don't have many openings (or can't give you a decent answer) or if they are not interested because of your lack of experience then don't waste a block on them. On the other hand you can pick the places you would like to work and then talk to those locations so they know you're interested. When the applications are being sorted through its just a jumble of names, a few stand out due to some peculiarity (experience, odd job, an unusual name etc), if you have talked to someone where you want to work they at least have a face (or at a voice) to go with your application, this year we only had 1 of 5 positions filled when hiring started, of the four remaining 3 of those were hired because they called (and called and called) and talked to the Captain, this showed interest, at the very least they may hire you just to get you to leave them alone. As Mellie said don't waste a block on 999, it looks like it means "I will work anywhere" but it actually only puts you on a list if a location can't fill a roster with people that actually picked that location (I believe a location has to have less than 30 people on the list to go to 999). The C form mix up is disappointing, we had several people locally who were given last years instructions, the wrong C form or the Temp application instead of the Demo. I can't believe this can be so difficult for Boise and the Forests to figure out, but I'm guessing once again we will be well into fire season before crews start filling out, why doesn't this process start in October or November so there's time to work bugs out. Pulaski, Government.... Sense..... I think thats an oxymoron. BTW there is a lovely collection of digital images on this site. I like your idea though, seems like NWCG should put converting the classes to powerpoint fairly high on their list of priorities, much better use of resources than that checklist to remind you to check your 10/18 checklist that you might be in trouble if.... that just came out. I mean really how hard could it be, hire a temporary GS4 to type the stuff up, get a few people who bleed really green to volunteer to go through the materials and voila, much better than having each forest and district duplicate efforts. If Forest Service employees bleed green, then do BLM'rs bleed yellow and Parkies white? Any BLM or Parkies out there? Have to say on the age thing, if we will allow people to work 20+ years as seasonals without benefits then allowing somebody over 37 to make the decision to accept a partial pension at 57 seems like it would only be fair (at least its their decision then) 10-15% of a wonderful government salary is still better than 0% of one (plus all the extra money spent on benefits the government didn't help out with). Better yet, how about reinstating the program (cut in 1988) to allow seasonal time to be bought back, at least it would reduce the number of people affected by the MEA. Why can we allow seasonals and non fire people over 57 on the fireline but not Permanent fire folks? In 2000 I was on a fire working for a Division Sup from Ventura County, I'm not sure how old he was but he told me he had been in fire for something like 38 years, he looked about 100 but he could hike better than most of the 20 year olds I had on the crew. On the topic of retirement I just figured this out, under FERS we pay in 1.7% towards our retirement, when we retire we get 1.7% times the number of years worked up to 20 years and 1% for each year after. Were just getting our money back with 20 years and losing money after that (yes this is 1.7% of high three but its been in the bank for 20 years earning interest). What kind of deal is that, CalPers (most common California Fire Department retirement) is paid by the employer and pays either 2% or 3% at age 50 times the number of years worked (not reduced after 20 years of service). No wonder were losing people, if I left I could still retire at 50 and make more money based on less years worked. Less money and less retirement, Arrrgh this really makes a jackass indicator go off in my brain. EH, I really like the NI Fire "Fire triangle" Logo you did, it would make a nice emblem for a national fire service if such a thing ever came to pass. USFS FEO (pssssst FEO, aside from the Original Ab, Pulaski is one of the oldest posters here. Some of the earliest photos on the photo pages are his. He sent in a few of the powerpoints that we have on the programs page. He suggested books for the book page... Many have wanted his moniker. Sorry, already taken!)
01/23	Hello All, It is 10pm on the West Coast. There is a 150 acre fire on the Cleveland National Forest at this time burning out of control with voluntary evacuations in place. Santa Ana's are 30-40 mph with gust up to 60 mph. Keep your heads up and be safe. An-R5er
01/23	Climber, Definitely DO NOT enter 999 as the geographic code. If you do, you will be the last to be offered a job. Doesn't seem logical, seems like the flexible person should get a good break, but doesn't happen that way. I'm fairly sure that all forests out west hire temp summer firefighters. Different areas burn at different times. Arizona (Region 3) burns in the early spring and then the monsoons come. California (Region 5) -- norCal starts burning in June or July and can continue until November while soCal gets Santa Ana winds that fan the flames in the fall/winter. Some areas of CA burn more than others and you may be likely to see more action in some places than in others, but all crews in norCal were busy last summer. Shasta Trinity NF, Six Rivers NF, Plumas NF, Modoc NF, all those places saw action. But so did a lot of CA forests and so did many other western forests from WA and ID to NV, UT and AZ. Here's how I'd tackle it. I'll use CA as an example, since I know it well. First, I'd go to the R5 Fire and Aviation website www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us and look at the state map of the national parks. If you click on the name, you may get the forest's fire website. Some links are broken, like to the Angeles. Some forests don't have fire web sites yet. But some present some good info. There are pictures of the environment and information about fire. Do they have trees or brush? Is it really hot and dry? How steep? How populated? Get a feel for some locations, if coming to CA is a possibility for you. Also go to the page of CA fires, 2001. It includes some Oregon and Washington fires if they had a website with photos. (There are links to both these sites on wildlandfire.com's links page under Federal Agencies and Miscellaneous.) Browse through the fire photos, connect them with forests. This might start to narrow your search, say from all of CA to some places in CA, as an example.  Now I don't know what other regions have in the way of fire websites and organized fire photos, but theoretically you could use this approach to get a feel for any area. Once you narrow down your options, get on the phone and call some forests listed on the FS Fire Jobs Locations page. Ask them how much fire they see, what their fire season is and if the crew gets to fight fire off forest. Tell the person you're speaking with that you don't know the area. I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you about it. Then really decide where you're willing to work. Don't put in a code of any place you're not willing to move to for the summer. You may get offers from every place you list! Anyone have other ideas?  It's too bad the BLM and NPS sites are down... Ok, that's all from me for now. Good luck. Mellie
01/23	Hi there,  I'm filling out an application for the first time and I'm to the Geographic Availability Section. I am wondering if it's a good idea or a bad idea to fill out one of the 9 slots as code 999 "go anywhere" or if I'm better off using it to apply to a specific crew. I have no fire experience, so I'm trying to give myself the best chance of getting on a crew. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Climber
01/23	OK, OK, ..Ive been quiet too long I guess and have had to bite my lip several times in the past few months with the topics that have crossed the board. Soooo here is a new (at least I havent seen it tossed around here) issue. Most everybody either has or has access to the microsoft power point program as well as at least a small personal collection of digital photos. Why cant someone, somewhere have a public depository of training and prevention programs and photos available for public use. I will bet this years salary that there are a ton of folks across the nation that have or are putting together programs that would be useful to any number of agencies or locations with a small bit of adjusting. The BLM site that had the photo library was an excellent start, and I know that the NWCG had a number of ppt programs on their site available for download. But it seems that this is still a hunt and search to find what you want operation. Would seem to make too much sense to me to have a central depository/library that is available to everybody that they could load and modify to fit their situation. Ive been fighting with this issue on a local level as well but have yet to see any movement and I'm tired of reinventing the wheel when I know other folks are doing the same thing. ..oh yea, I know why it probably wont happen....if its all free nobody will be able to make a buck off it... (geez, I hope I'm wrong) Pulaski
01/23	Fireronin (Re: Drop & Go Chainsaws) In your highly scientific dissertation of 01/18 you advised you filled the gas tank of the seized up chainsaw before you pyro-ed it. Do you recall if the tank was topped off or only partially full? ----- Thanks. The Honorable Mouse.
01/23	From Firescribe, An article on the town meeting about the Potrero Fire near San Diego that occurred after CDF had downsized fire staff this fall. FS is blamed by one homeowner for not trying to save his burning house. www.signonsandiego.com An informative summary of the far-reaching impacts due to the closure of the DOI web: www.billingsgazette.com/ Re the DOI web blackout: All Ab can add is that you can see the tremendous impact on DOI fire jobs. Just compare the number of fire jobs in the current 455 series (range tech fire, largely BLM, NPS, BIA) with the number in the 462 series (forestry tech fire which include some DOI agencies, but more Dept of Agriculture USFS fire jobs). There are usually somewhat more forestry tech fire jobs, but 2.5 times as many as range? That's a huge difference. Will there be workforce shortages in BLM, NPS and BIA? Will our BLM, NPS, BIA lands burn hotter and larger this next season because of reduced workforce? Stay tuned.
01/23	Ab, I won't take the time to paraphrase my first email of what was said on the CDF board. I think from your and other replies that matt got the message. Tim, another poster there, admitted that there was more than one Devil Fire. Maybe he was afraid of the consequences of a phone interaction with you. Son of Sluggo, who is also part of our community here, set the record straight on what theysaid stands for, the kind of information that is shared and the role Ab plays. Thanks Sluggo Jr. Couldn't have said it better. AL
01/23	Hey all, I was just talking to my father who was at a terrorism committee meeting. At the meeting a chief from the New York Fire Department gave them a briefing about the September 11 attacks. He said that the Wildland fire crews that came in to help were willing to do anything and were one of the greatest assets that they used. He said that they should have called them sooner and more people should know about them and use them. Keep up the good work everyone, and stay safe AC
01/23	Gordon, Thank you...that is the most succinct explanation of why those over 37 need to be protected from accepting a permanent fire position with reduced pension. It seems that the 1% per year computation of pensions is the real culprit rather than age though. It implies that those in charge expect to get 100 years of service out of permanent position FFs before they retire with a full pension. How patently absurd to propose such a prorate plan let alone let it stand in the way of having the most efficient, prepared, and safe force of firefighters possible. I wonder how long it would last if it applied to Senators, Representatives or heads of Govt. agencies? More realistic would be minimum 2.5% per year based on a career FF that joined up at 20 and served his/her entire career till 57 as a firefighter. Hmm...20 yrs= 50%. One might even factor in the years that one served as a temporary firefighter. That would be a bargain for both the "Older Firefighters" and the Govt. What is the logic of calculating partial pensions on a nonsensical 1% per year rate? Maybe that is the problem...expecting logic to come into play. I've been in the private sector too long to work with the artificial make believe rules of "govt. service". It is a sad commentary when the beancounters run any organization using formulas that have no relationship with reality what so ever and those whose positions imply the status of "in charge" are so uncertain of what reality is that they dare not challenge the beancounters version of it. We need people at the top who are as willing to lay their (political) A**es on the line to get their job done just as much as the folks on the bottom do when they respond to a fire dispatch. In a business based on quickly solving problems created by rapidly changing conditions via risk taking it seems perverse that those at the top seem so averse to this concept while those at the bottom have no choice but to accept it. NorCal Tom, You have an excellent point about those at the top having more pressing problems. I imagine that if they can't get the basic hiring process to even appear to work after several years of trying their best, less important things like losing their experienced firefighters must pale in comparison. <sigh> I suppose I should just stop dreaming that govt. entities will ever approach something  resembling the efficiency of private enterprise. Of course with a deepening recession, the growing budget deficit, and the military unavailable for firefighting duty for the foreseeable future maybe I should not give up so easily. I suppose minimum standards of efficiency and rules that at least appear to have a relationship with the economic principals of capitalism might soon be "in vogue" again soon. Nah...if they can't even get applications to the folks who wish to fill the positions they urgently need filled I probably should not hold out much hope that anything less important will breach the circle of advisors of those "at the top". I wonder if they even know about that? I don't recall hearing an acknowledgment from the upper levels that this was a serious problem that had come to their attention. Being out of touch may not solve the problems...but at least it allows them to not lose sleep over them while they accumulate a cushy pension for a minimum of service to the country. Fireronin
01/22	Heres some more for the current photo frenzy. The Case Mtn. Fire picture is from 1987, the SP2H is from 1996, (dont remember the fire) and the Crane picture is from the Outlet Fire, Grand Cyn NP, 2000. Sting Nice helo and AT photos, Sting. I put them on the Heli4 and the AirTanker3 pages. Ab.
01/22	Howdy, really like your site, it's very interesting and informative...I would like to submit a couple of logos I designed some years ago. They are both basically the same but also different...The philosophy behind them is based on the fire triangle. You need fuel, heat and oxygen to have fire...I have always felt that safety, teamwork and professionalism is needed to manage fire. Anyway I designed these with that philosophy in mind. The national Hotshot logo was adopted for the National Hotshot Conference which was held in Mesa, Az in Feb 1992. The other logo was designed for all wildland fire personnel. Thanks, and keep this site cruisin! EH Thanks, I put em on the Logo5 page. Ab.
01/22	Thanks for the great post, Gordon, you give some fantastic insight into the management thought process. I'm sure those few who are over 37 and were hoping for a full time job will understand, and be forever grateful that the government is watching out for their best interests. I can only suggest 3 things: First, go back and read my original post, you'll find some novel suggestions. I believe there is a process already in place for employees to buy back temporary service time so that it can apply to their FERS retirement? Can't they do this with primary FF positions also? Second, try thinking outside the box once in awhile. Third, next time your in fire camp or on the line, look at all the folks that are over age 57. They happen to be in secondary FF positions, or other disciplines, or private contractors, and not held back by this stupid artificial barrier on personnel in primary FF positions. (Employees in secondary positions used to get more fire time than primary "homeguards", thankfully that has changed quite a bit with more homeguards allowed to travel. I know 3 ex FMO's, 2 district and one Forest, over 57, that are retired, but still work fires as contractors. One as a faller, one in overhead line positions, one in overhead team positions. Sorry, but I have to include this, and its not directed at any one person... Freeman Dyson, one of our greatest physicists (read Starship and the Canoe) was asked if he ever wondered why he was so much smarter than everyone he was growing up with. He replied No, what he really wondered about was why everyone else was so dumb. DA, R5
01/22	Gordon, Thanks for the nuts and bolts financial analysis of the MEA. It is always good to have the beginning, bottom line information in evaluating a system and making any suggestions for change. Thanks Abs for the site to get the information. DA said in a post in Dec that he thought the system hadn't changed because those who "could do something about it just don't care too much about it." I think this is true. And why don't they care? They're very busy with other more pressing problems, like hiring, like training, like the budget... among other things. Maybe they can't wait to retire to escape attacks from people like us? Offered with tongue in cheek. In addition, it's hard to change the status quo in major ways unless it is absolutely clear that the system is broken and must be overhauled asap. Or until enough people are yelling about it. Then the problem moves to top priority. Changing a system in place is often more difficult than creating the most efficient system from the beginning. From what I see on large fires, an alternative fire-hire system that suits the older firefighter is already in place. Some have gone to secondary fire positions or work in other disciplines needed by fire teams. Many have become contractors (where they make good money plus getting retirement pay). On the whole, those working in fire are intelligent and adaptive. They know that there is more than one way to create a fire budget or get that pulaski from the cache. They're great at the end run and creative problem solving, a sign of true groundpounding intelligence... Similarly, for the intelligent and adaptable, there is more than one way to continue to fight fire after age 57. We see a lot of those old smart guys out there every summer. The only downside is that they often aren't afforded the status they deserve and some feel they have lost the status they had before retirement. Can they handle that? Most do. I don't hear much whining. In any case, until fire employment alternatives for the over-57 firefighter are eliminated (and I'm not suggesting they should be because I'd like to take one of them when I reach 57), there will not be major pressure to eliminate mandatory retirement age or to raise the MEA again. Is it possible the system may be working as it should?-- maybe nothing is broken? NorCal Tom PS. WP, well not a politician, but I did get elected to a volunteer school board position once. I tenured out at first opportunity, luckily I didn't have to wait until 57.
01/22	Hey NC FF and all others dealing with a difficult USFS hiring process, here's my story to add: December (before Christmas), I call ASAP to get the Temp and Perm Demo packages. Four Days later, I receive only the Temp. Not a problem, I still have 3 weeks before the deadline for Perm Round 1. December 28, I call Boise, they said they have no record of requesting a Perm package, but they will send one out that afternoon. I wait a week. Nothing. I wait. On January 8 I call to find out what is up. The woman that answered the phone told me just to be patient, since I called on the 28th, the package probably didn't go out until the 2nd of January. She told me to just wait. On the 10th, I called again. The same woman suggested that I go to my local Forest Office to get the information and package materials. This sounds like a sound idea at the time, but the following two days would prove otherwise. On the 11th I called the nearest Ranger station office, up in Region 9, New Hampshire, and am told they have form C, as well as all the other information for the Perm positions and will hold a package for me to pickup at a visitor center on Saturday. Saturday comes, I load up the Jeep and drive the 3 plus hours to the visitor center. Upon arrival, I pick up the package take one look at the C form Questions and grunt a sigh of pain- the package is for Temp hiring. The person at the visitor center told me that the questions were probably the same and to just use them. I didn't buy it, and asked her to pull up the FS intranet to see if she could download the correct information. The intranet was pointless-she couldn't log on. A neighboring Ranger Station thought they had the correct questions, but after faxing them over, I found that they too were the temp questions. We then tried to log on to NICC or NIFC sites, but due to the affiliation with DOI, the sites were closed down. I called the Southern Area Coordinating Center (I actually called all of the centers, including Alaska, but Region 8 is the only one that picked up the phone) and asked the women down there in Georgia for help with my dilemma. She tried for about an hour to find the questions, but couldn't come up with the permanent form, only temporary. I gave up. That night I went home and sent out the posting you will find here in they said, screaming for help. I got a response from another Region 9er, only further out west, but the questions I was faxed on Monday were still only the Temporary. I thought ok, it's Monday the 14th, no more chance. I called Boise, explained my problem to two different people, and finally someone gave in and emailed me the Form C questions (I had received Form C from the Ranger District) for the Permanent Demo Positions. Using a resume format and after receiving all appendices from the ranger district, I FedExed my App in Overnight to meet the Deadline. Lessons I learned: BE VERY ASSERTIVE. You probably know more about what you are looking for than the person looking for it. DON'T GIVE UP. Persistence paid off. THE FOREST SERVICE HAS LOTS OF WORK TO DO. If they are going to continue to use this format, the FS needs to make all forms available online from any computer. Their inability to track when and if hiring packages have gone out is very scary. I STILL HAVEN'T RECEIVED MY DEMO PACKAGE that I ordered. You can't blame every mistake on the Postal Service. Also- I hope fires are not as mismanaged as this process. People will be getting lost, falling between the cracks, and being left for the flames. What can be done to help the FS change this deplorable hiring process? Thanks, JT Ab note: I am not posting all the job questions, comments and horror stories that come in on theysaid, but JT is not the only one reporting serious problems. There is a big glitch again this year with the hiring process. Job seekers, be persistent.
01/22	hay ab  i'm new to this site. I was wondering if you know any thing about the idaho blm (shoshone) twin falls area fire program, i guess the engine program. ive heard that there engine academy is outstanding, i guess i wanted to hear your thoughts about their academy. PH If anyone wants to write in, we'll pass the info along. Ab.
01/22	If you can stand one more comment on MEA: There is a very good reason for max entry age. As noted before you cannot get 20 years in before mandatory retirement. You can say now you are willing to accept a partial pension, but your opinion will change as you near the magic age of 57. To qualify for the firefighter pension formula you need a minimum twenty years of covered service. If you have only 19 years service (57 minus 38) you will not qualify for the firefighter formula. Your pension will be computed under the regular FERS formula of 1% per year of service. That means after 19 years of firefighting your pension will be only 19% of your high-three salary -- a pretty small amount. I calculate that if you started as a GS-5 (RUS rate) and averaged a 5% salary increase every year your pension would at most be around $800 to $900 per month in current (inflation adjusted) dollars. You would be pretty bummed out if that was all you were getting. You may be able to arrange staying in until you had exactly twenty years and qualify for the firefighter formula, but that still only gives you 34%, and you are not guaranteed you will be allowed to stay; approval is on a case-by-case basis. You will have the TSP fund in addition to the pension, but you still have only 19 years of contributions. To make up the difference you would have to contribute the maximum amount possible every year, which would reduce your current take-home pay to a low level. You may not think so now, but the government is doing you a favor to cut you off at age 37. The alternative is to be forced out with only a pittance of a pension. If you still want to make the government a career, apply for a non-fire job (with no maximum age and a faster career ladder) and keep up your fire quals to get as many assignments as you want. You may be better off in the long run. Gordon
01/22	Just heard a rumor that Pierce would be producing ALL of the new Model 62 engines on the upcoming contract. Has anyone else heard this. The source seems reliable. I for one, would be glad to have Pierce make my next engine since the two I've had over the last 10 years (Capt. and FEO) were both BME. The BME product idea was fair, but there are no two identical Model 62's. I worked on two sister Model 62's FS6330 and FS6331. Both were possessed by the devil. When you compare the plumbing on each they are similar but vastly different when you had to make repairs. Every flex hose is a different size from unit to unit, every length of pipe is different from unit to unit. Obviously they were individually built, great idea if they came perfect and had no problems. Bad idea if you ever have to get replacement parts. I also understand BME has had problems since the beginning of the Model 62 keeping up to contract standards and delivery schedules. Its still a problem since on our Forest, an engine will be almost a year overdue if BME delivers it on the new promised date. Sucks to be them. They are driving an old Model 60 engine that I had in the mid eighties. When I had my first new Model 62 delivered (boy it looked pretty), it came with all the plumbing loose. The installer had started all the nuts on the hangers but didn't tighten them. Also, the top compartments had the latch hardware sitting inside. They didn't even take the time to finish the installation. An aftermarket air line was crimped and later melted next to the turbo. Pieces were missing everywhere. These engines were delivered overdue and were obviously shipped out in haste to avoid contract issues. I had the number 1 valve coupling hose fall off on a fire because it never had a clamp installed. FS6330, FS6331, and FS6332 all had similar problems. Did I mention the cracks forming in the fire body only a month after delivery? (Damn tenth grade welding students). My new engines first season it was out of service for 22 days. Then comes the problem of contract inspection. I'll have to leave that one for another day due to time. SoCalCapt
01/22	The Federal Wildland Fire Service Association has updated their web page. Its good reading and excellent info for Fed wildland firefighters. www.fwfsa.org/newpresmess.html (Please title New Presidents Message) www.fwfsa.org/faqs.html (Please title FWFSA FAQ's) www.fwfsa.org (Please title FWFSA Main Page) Thanks FWFSA-SoCal Readers, let me remind you that you can access FWFSA simply by clicking on the logo at the top of this page. Ab.

01/21	-NC FF, That is not true about having rounds of hiring. The deadline for the first round of hiring just passed on the 15th of January, the second round ends on the 15th of February if I'm not mistaken. I would encourage you to get your resume or application done so when you get your C-form in the mail you can crank that out and send it off ASAP. Remember this, make sure you send your package certified mail so they have to sign for it when the people in Boise get it. This will prove that your package made it and you have a name to go with it. You are not getting cheated out of a job, your package will get in on time for you to get a job. Good luck and keep a positive attitude. R-5 Recruiter
01/21	Hey North Carolina FF, There are rounds of hiring-- 8 on the list for permanent fire jobs! The link to MEL Madness Schedule for hiring has been up on the Jobs Page since 11/30, along with some other information. Take a look. Seasonal temps are a different story. You just apply as soon as you can, as I understand it. Deadlines for applications for Permanent Fire Jobs Round 1 had to be postmarked by Jan 15. Round 2 by March 1 according to the schedule (but I've heard Feb 15 too). Permanent specialties include Hotshot, Handcrew, Engine, Helitack, Helishot, Fire Prevention/Patrol, and Fuels. There was supposed to be more info out by Nov 30, so these dates might not be correct. I'll try to verify them or get new ones tomorrow when my contacts will be back at work. Maybe someone else reading here has the true schedule. In any case, hang in there NC FF. You'll get your chance. As someone said last Nov, be sure you  get a return receipt when you send in your application. Keep records. Good luck. Hey Ab, nice reply to those guys who were talking behind our backs. And thanks for the backup, everyone. I like our community solidarity even if its strength is that it's fragmented! Some good info shared here and some fun too. Gee, I seem to remember when our language was somewhat raunchy and our attacks were more personal. Hmmmm, are we MAINSTREAM  now or what? <grin> I THINK NOT!!! Mellie
01/21	To All about the Form C- My application has been messed up. When I first called to get the Form C for fire positions they sent me one, but the questionnaire for the Form C was for non-fire positions. So I called the next day and I explained what happened, so they said they would send me a new application. It was approximately 14 days from then till this last Friday, when I called again because I had yet to receive one. So they said once again, that they would send me a new one. I am waiting now. I feel like I am getting cheated, like my chance of getting a decent firefighting position is being robbed from me.   :( Also, the girl who was working the phone told me that there were no rounds this year. Only that the sooner the application was in, the better. Anyone know what the deal with that is? -NC FF
01/21	JA, You want to flame a country's way of fighting fires as a way of pushing your sales barrow then you are already wasting TheySaid space. I have flown from one side of the US & driven back again. I have traveled the SW US and lived in Colorado for a year. But that would never give me the thought that I could be an expert to try & tell them they're doing it wrong. You seem to think that because you read it on the internet it's true, and have blind faith in words of politicians. Mate, have I got a bridge to sell you!!!! The tests were done by the Australian Fire Authorities Council (AFAC - the equivalent of the US IAFF - www.ausfire.com), which is why the whole country has not gone down the heavy fixed wing path. The FBEU is not a member of AFAC. But hey, since the pollies are talking about other resources maybe you might want to make another trip to talk about your DC6's. In fact make sure you base your presentation to Commisioner Koperberg on the FBEU's statements, just so he knows that the Union is behind you, and other "knowledgeable commentators" you've read. Although I don't know why we want Berlin airlift machines when we can get real grunt with Firehogs (http://www.firehogs.com). good luck OB Cold War joke: Soviet Tank General meets Soviet Infantry General under the Eiffel Tower. One says to the other "So who won the air war?"
01/21	Hey all, Has anyone heard the rumor that the Forest Service may delay hiring until round two due to the large number of incorrect applications submitted? Talking with a R5 BC it sounds like lots of folks applied using last years form C questions which are not the same as this years. Anyway, it is something I heard. BLM FEO There was a post last month or the month before warning forests not to hand out the old form C. We posted it on theysaid and the jobs board. Don't know if the rumor is correct though. Anyone know? Ab.
01/21	Oh wow, have we got some lively discussions going on Very tongue in cheek. The comment that when the fires were raging in Australia, and even though there it a MOU for US fire fighters going to assist, no fire fighters were called for. Maybe the Aussies were trying to E-mail the DOI but because their sites were down they could not get through. Age Issue from a VFD Standpoint My VFD has last year brought back into the fold 2 ex members, ages 70 and 68. The amount of experience these guys have of 80+ years serving on the department in and around our town is invaluable. Yes we usually engine slug it on wildland fires, and not suggesting that they join a smoke jumper crew. We don't expect them to put a hose lay 500 feet up a 60º hill, but I do know that if I have the nozzle I won't be looking down at the fire with my feet 4 feet off the ground because somebody has slammed the valve open and instantly given me 200 psi (had that a couple of times). That we will be pulling other engines out of ditches because they were so focused on the flames they didn't watch what was in front of them. That they will be the ones with me changing out hose, checking equipment etc. as the new guys are all standing around swapping war stories. There is no-one I trust more watching my back than those two. Not advocating that CDF and USFS go around retirement homes recruiting people, just trying to point out that just because somebody isn't within a certain age bracket doesn't mean that they are totally useless. More on the Aussie Bush Fires Within one week of the fires in Blue Mountains around Sydney the Sydney Morning Herald (Sydney's main news paper) web page had big headlines about the "Over Zealousness of Fire Break Use." As it turned out it was one resident complaining that their property value had decreased because the Fire Brigade had cut a dozer line next to their property line between them and the bush (and yes in front of the advancing flames). Where do these people come from? Maybe the TV stations there need to do a show like Americas Most Wanted, entitled Australia's Biggest Idiots or Australia's Most Self Centered. How much would there been worth if there was no line? Must have been a real dump if the property value increases with a smoldering pile of ashes on the lot instead of their house and a 8 foot wide strip of bare earth on the other side of the fence. Basque
01/21	Remember the Storrie? Salvage debate in deadlock Firescribe
01/21	Ab, Attached (hopefully) is Skycrane working St. Mary's Mission fire, part of Virginia Lake Complex near Omak Washington. Dated +- 8/15/01. Ship was working hot spots for SCIA-1 crew nine. Crew Boss Dennis Trentham. Photo by Jess Neville. You may add to photos if it meets your qualifications. adftr That has got to be one of the nicest helo photos I've seen in a while. The photographer caught it at a perfect moment. Thanks adftr. It's the last photo on the heli4 page. Ab.
01/21	Ab, Thought I'd share several of my favorite photos from the successful BLM Beaver Dam prescribed burn in the Ely District of Eastern Nevada. Targhee Wildfire Thanks, really NICE ones. I put them on the new fire8 page. Ab.
01/21	Update on the effects of the DOI website blackout from Hickman: www.firefighting.com/articles/namFullView.asp?namID=5529 From another perspective: dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020115/pl/interior_internet_1.html Here's one that is fairly informative from 12/11/01.....  and the problem persists: www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/tech/001418.htm
01/20	Fireball XL 5 “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” Tolstoy.  Odin
01/20	With the big increase in new replacement engine for Region 5 Forest Service, does anyone know what the order of replacement is specifically going to be? I heard that the Model 42's are the priority replacement target, but what about the other engines other than the newer Model 62's (ie, 51s, 52s, 60s, 61s)? As for the engines that will be replaced where will the old engines be assigned, or will they be surplused out to local government FDs? Any equipment managers have the skinny? MOC4546
01/20	It's been said before I'm sure, a library of training programs would be nice to have access too. Everything from Basic 32 on up . All can send in what class they have developed/adapted on the pc so others can use, learn and adapt into the crew training program. Just a thought. Chogi We do have some ppts on the site (Programs Page), but should probably review those... and see if we have any others that could be shared. Ab.
01/19	wa/st The computer system does not "red card" you, Your FMO/Training Officer or who ever is tasked with the responsibility to certify, is the one to say you are qualified. The computer is the file system that keep every ones records. If your boss has a typewriter and blank red cards, you are set. OLD AB. When the "fur is a-flyin" and the "feces is being slung" I just remind my self that options are like ASSHO*LES, every one has one. Steady-on..........WP
01/19	Re: the Honorable Mouse's inquiry - On a fire last season somebody tossed a full gas can (the plastic kind) in the brush and forgot about it. When the fire came through a bit later, the thing blew up like a baby atomic bomb (didn't hear any 'bang', but the noise of the airshow, a passing train, and/or the flames could have drowned it out). Impressive, but probably not a good deal if you happen to be near it.  On the other hand, I've never heard of the metal 'jerry cans' or sigg bottles exploding, and some sawyer buddies who have caught their saws on fire (hey, it happens) say they tend to go out pretty quickly without damaging or igniting the fuel tanks. Hope this helps. -Kibby
01/19	CAPT. MATT, I agree with AB about having CDF personnel chime in with job announcements and good advice, isn't that right CDF BC? If Capt. Matt had any sense at all he would have clearly recognized that the letter from 1999 was posted by a contractor or other fire agency. I for one do not know any USFS personnel making almost 4,500 in two weeks or who would be sitting around camp wasting time by watching people come in and out. In my opinion the person who wrote that letter better take a good look at him or her self and ask the question "why am I wasting tax payer money sitting in camp making 4,300 in two weeks." Capt. Matt, take that chip of your shoulder and read between the lines, it does not matter in this forum if you are from CDF, BLM, BIA, NPS, or USFS, everybody is treated with respect and yes on certain occasions we do disagree with one another. That is why many people read and post their opinion on this web site and I think that's why Ab started this web site. Capt. Matt, try and not get all caught up with the USFS-CDF bashing that has gone on for way too long, we all do the same job and in this day and age we really do need to stick together and put the bitterness behind us. That is just my opinion. Notice how I used all capital M's. An-R5er
01/19	OB Koperberg has come out against buying the very choppers you seem to like. (Canberra Times) Do you have complete contempt for the express views of New South Wales' Fire Brigade Employees Union? Did they not witness the CL-415 tests? Do they not call for seasonal rotations from Canada? I hardly think you're in a position to summarily dismiss other aviation assets you have not really tried and which work in jurisdictions all over the world. Knowledgeable commentators have written into your prominent newspapers and elsewhere e.g. on the RAAF C-130, which is readily adaptable to waterbombing through purchase of tanking kits from the US. You should be prepared to head off a disaster. You don't want to light a Los Alamos or a Lewiston with your prescribed burning if that goes ahead. You need to be fully prepared and co-ordinated for suppression before you torch even if some very small percentage of prescribed burnings go wrong. Again, it a universal (western firefighting) truth that some very small percentage of fires; the big ones, causes a very disproportionate amount of the damages. Don't think for a minute that valuable ground-pounding first-strike and mop-up forces would be entirely displaced by aircraft as that is far, far from the case. I would like to hear it from Bombardier reps too. I'd like to hear their side of the story. Oz-fires may be different, but they're not *that* different. I have other Australian firefighter opinion besides your own and that of your Brigade Captain to go by. For example, I have heard regrets expressed at a high, professional, firefighting level, not the Dromander Wing Commander level, on waiving through opotions on the P-3C, C-130, and the DC-6; especially the latter two. So opinion is not as firm as you would want people to believe it is. Your politicians (e.g. Anderson and Ripper) are chatting up a national fire response policy even to include NZ response capability. Indeed, the insurance industry will have its say too as normally, who pays the piper, calls the tune. I have read you should not expect a rate rise with only AU$70m in damages. I recognize the great, proud, skilled Oz volunteer tradition but cannot escape reading about costs to small business of releasing employees to the bush fire and would like to see a proper economic analysis objectively conducted on the system. Facts are sometimes inconvenient things. I have visited Australia in a representative capacity and, of course, flown over it. We're not about to settle anything here, so we shouldn't try. This just burns up valuable TheySaidIt space and aggravates people. Leave it to the politicians and objective aviation experts. Planes fly just as fast as the bush fire and in many cases, much faster. This whole discussion reminds me of the old military discussions generals once had; army vs air force. Some of the arguments army generals used weren't cricket. Of course, we know that air forces eventually overcame objections and proved their worth. The very best. No worries; JA
01/19	Hey! What's up? Being a man of many and varied interests, I input "submissives" into my search engine, as I am wont to do, and up pops this strange website with a post by one "Original Ab" dated 01/18, with my target word highlighted in the second paragraph! But my excitement is tempered by the absolute lack of any redeeming prurient interest in said post. You guys are beyond kinky........ (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) Mike CDF from Arroyo Grande hahahahahahahahaha. When we were testing the search key, we tried some various words like squeak tree (and others!) just to see what came up. It is interesting what you can find way back in the archives. Ab.
01/19	JA, please, for the sake of clarifying in my mind, tell me your experience in fighting Australian wildfires or if you have ever visited here. I'd hate to think that you're Monday quarterbacking on something that you have only read about. I'm also desperate to understand your statement of "economically prohibitively costly volunteer system". A system that doesn't involve wages for 70,000 volunteers, of which 35,000 are active firefighters? I've seen some of the figures bandied around from the 2000 US fires that if those costs were used here would bankrupt the economy in 2 days flat. If you're trying to put that in houses lost then you've really not been here to know the terrain or been involved in these fires to have seen for yourself how this has occurred. Many people had not properly prepared their homes and suffered the consequences. Sounds like what happened in the US 2000 fires. Other homes on the south coast were holiday homes that were unattended & thus unable to assist with the defense of their homes, especially after the fire front had passed but embers were still present. As for who judges the judges, you probably don't know that out here 67% of fire funding comes from the insurance industry. They are also responsible for 100% insurable losses. The remaining funding comes from State & Local Govt. On top of that comes public opinion. So I think it's fair to say we get scrutenized enough as I'm sure the insurers would be asking questions if they were suffering large losses. And on top of that all fires get investigated by the State Coroner. I hope that's enough checking for you. As for aircraft, and to get something clear. Australia is the same size as the continental US. In the US fires of 2000, not the whole bag of ground & air assets were able to stop your fires. So put that in an eucalyptus environment where on Boxing day (26th Dec) one fire traveled more than 100km in 6 hrs. It was extreme fire behaviours that only rain could have and did stop these fires. Same as US 2000. Fixed wing has been trialled here and deemed unsuitable. For mine I would say that they're not flexible enough to operate in many of our areas. There a no airstrips and travel times would make it pointless for unsupported direct attack and spotting distances make retardant lines useless. On New Years Day the Erikson dumped 680,000lt on one fire. The difference is that while there may not be airstrips, there will always be paddocks & dams. You may not know this, but now you do. We also find the flexibility of choppers with buckets fantastic. Land, drop off the bucket, pick up the incident commander, take them for a recce, decide on strategy, hitch up bucket & go off to support ground crews. Now you're unfortunately left yourself showing a lack of knowledge about our fauna. Kangaroos outrun fire & koalas have been burnt in wildfires long before man black or white set foot on this land. Now you want to bring up sheep losses, they've come from grassland fires that run way too fast for air support of any sort to be any good. Not to mention those losses were from a fire the week before Xmas. But I've asked my mate who is an Air Attack Supervisor, Brigade Captain and a sheep farmer to review your comments for his own reply. But we do have to say thank you to the people of the US for donating $50,000 (not sure if it A$ or US$) which was donated to assist victims of the fires, not the firefighting effort. At the end of the day, just because you see a bat & a ball it's no good trying to use the rules of baseball on a game of cricket. rgds OB
01/19	Folks, few CDFers go to the page Shannon is referring to. Its a whine page with most of the folks who post signing "anonymous". Must all be related as they have the same name. This public, open site gets posts from every fool under the sun, all saying they work for CDF and know what’s going on. Most haven't got a clue and prove it by their foolish comments and bickering. If the folks who post to that public site really knew much, they'd be working to fix our challenges instead of whining on the web. CDF Firefighters (the Union) has their own members page that’s currently difficult to use but a fix is in the works. We just don't have members with the skill's lined up like the "Ab's", to do it right away. I've worked both sides of the hose lay and found great firefighters and wonderful folks both places, I've also found some I stay away from and don't give the time of day to. Every organization has 'em. This site is my first stop on the web each day and I value the discussion and the experience that is shown here regularly. The Ab's do Stellar work in posting our comments and at times sifting the wheat from the asses...excuse me ,chaff,  and you all are pro's. Most of what's here bares this out. Fire doesn't care what color your truck is or who signs your check, it only respects bravery, intelligence and hard work. You folks slay the dragon and that’s good enough for me. Sign me a CDF Wildland Firefighter and proud of my brothers and sisters all across the nation.
01/18	Capt. matt Shannon, Welcome to "They Said".... based on your views I must say -- crawl back into your "agency is best" hole and finish your career. We won't miss you. (and your Agency probably won't either) You obviously haven't kept track with reality and NOTICED the real issues that are discussed and presented here. If you think this is a F