DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Jan-02) Return to Archives Page
02/28	Hi Ab, I've been a reader of "They Said" and of your excellent site for several months, but have only just now got the time to sit down and (slowly!) tap the keyboard. A little about myself, I am a career (mostly structural) firefighter in Sydney, Australia and also a volunteer firefighter in my local rural fire district where about 70 per cent of our calls are wildland. We have just come off some pretty intense, mostly interface type fires here as you guys would be aware. In reply to Sven's post regarding vehicle fires being other than total loss, I have had at least two car fires in the last 3 months where "good saves" were made. One was a under hood fire, where the driver had the presence of mind to keep the hood down thereby slowing the fire spread - with engine repairs and a small area repaint, this car would be back on the road. Another was a stolen car let alight (fairly common thing here!), the bad guys set fire to the seats, but then closed the doors!! Result was fire starved due to lack of oxygen, interior damage only, insurance company would repair maybe $5000 damage on a $20000 car. Of course most deliberately lit car fires (stolen or insurance fraud) result in close to total loss. Also I would like to add that I am visiting the NorthWest USA (WA, ID, MT - I will be based in Pullman WA) in late March to late April. I would like to visit as much Wildland Fire related stuff as I can. On a previous visit last year, I checked out the Smokejumper base at Missoula MT and had a great time - thanks guys, this time I have plans to visit NIFC at Boise ID and the Fire Lookout Museum at Spokane WA and as much other stuff as I can. I would also like to check out and photograph USFS, BLM and anybody else's wildland engines, and also swap wildland fire patches. If any of you guys have any tips or leads here they would be much appreciated. Take Care - Peter. Hi Peter, thanks for the kudos. I'm sure some readers can make some suggestions. Ab.
02/28	Well all my apps are out (USFS, NDF,BLM, BIA and 2 small local agencies here in NV). Now all I have to do is sit and wait. Not my strong point! LOL I guess I will just have to put my extra energy into training for the pack tests that will be coming my way! Just a school to add to the 2 yr link...mine:) www.tmcc.edu They have the brand spankin' new Regional Training Center for police, structural fire & wildland fire. Awesome teachers and good classes! Again THANK YOU! Skyeblue
02/28	With the talk of training, there is a need for new communications technicians in the Forest Service and BLM. The only way to get your foot in the door is to go thru the CO-OP program at NIFC or have military electronic experience. The program at NIFC involves being a second semester student in the electronics program at Boise State University or ITT also in Boise. After classed you have a part time job at the radio shop at NIFC, www.nifc.gov/nifctour/nirsc.html. Then in the summer you get a full time detail to a Forest or BLM district. after you get your associates degree they will help place you in a permanent position. Give NIFC a call and ask for the radio cache for more info. They have problems keeping people in that some of the students just use the program to have a part time job until they graduate then leave for more pay at Micron or HP, or they don't want to leave Boise. In the FS you have the possibility of going from a GS-2 to GS-11 in 6 years. The problem with the techs on Forest is that they are leaving to other agencies for a higher grade level or to the private sector for more pay. Also in 5 years about 50 percent of the GS 11s are eligible for retirement. COMT
02/28	Old Fire Guy, After the 30 mile fire investigation(s) "revelations" about firefighter and overhead fatigue being the major contributing factors to these and other firefighter fatalities doesn't it make sense to have SOs' attention focused on the time sheets and conditions in camp as a way of preventing a similar tragedy in the future? Not just the line crews either! If overhead is not thinking clearly due to fatigue it puts far more people at risk than if a crew boss is suffering from lack of sleep/rest. I submit that the single most useful thing an SO can do is make sure that everyone is getting adequate rest and quality sleep. This may include providing a place for night crews to sleep away from the bustle of the main camp, or "suggesting" that the IC take a power nap. (I'd pay to see that!) Maybe simply placing the sleeping area of camp far enough away from the caterers reefer trailers and generators could prevent the next fatality. But SOs need to be empowered to do this and I don't think they currently are. I think they have always concentrated on the line because they don't feel free to scrutinize overhead or make major changes in what may exist when they show up for duty at an extended attack and they could probably do more good back in camp than on the line if they did. I don't mean that as a slam on SOs...as long as we have fatalities we need more effective SOs and we can't have that if we don't cooperate. They are our version of an OSHA inspector except they do not have the independence to demand changes to unsafe conditions that an OSHA inspector would have on a private business. Maybe this should be changed as well. Punishing a crew for not working safe only encourages them to become less cooperative with the SOs. Wouldn't it be more effective to reward crews that consistently work safe in some way? Private industry tried (briefly) the former in the 1950's with dismal results...and adopted the latter ever since simply because it works. It is sadly ironic that in a business as safety oriented as ours our SOs have less clout than in other less inherently dangerous workplaces and are too often reduced to the status of roving nitpickers on the line while these simple to implement proven strategies for safety go essentially unimplemented back in camp. Dana Linscott Vicechairperson MWFA (Minnesota)
02/28	Old Fire Guy- The "Taking Care of Our Own" session sounds like a good piece of work on someone's part. Who was responsible for that? Can you tell us more? GGFire
02/28	Here are the daily notes floating among the forests in R3-- from RT Braising Arizona: how dry is it? so far---it is so dry that.............................well you get the picture---see attached! Little rain portends busy fire season Dry days fan fears of fiery summer Wildfires burn 1,800 acres in S. Ariz.
02/28	I just put up a lot of nice photos from northeastern Washington state. Check the Fire 9 and Fire 10 pages, the Crew 4 and the Air Tanker 4 pages. Cape Labelle, convection, lightning tree. Some fine photos of big flamage on Fire 10 and a nice PBY photo on the Air 4 page. Thanks to J. Foster for the contributions. Ab.
02/28	Last week I was in Phoenix attending an interagency session called "Taking Care of Our Own" which focused on training participants in how to deal with an on-the-job employee fatality (firefighting emphasis). Leaders of investigation teams, supervisors, trauma psychologists, and (most important) a panel of surviving family members led us through this exercise. We heard stories of horrific treatment of family members, insensitivity, and plain dumbness. We left with a better understanding of the coordination needed to ease family members pain, and a profound hope that we never get the chance to implement the training. When might it be needed? The next time a crew is out there "getting their work done" and disregarding the 10 and 18. It's the common thread in all fatalities and it is literally killing us. Oldguy: Thanks for your suggestion of resolving on the spot. It may indeed be better than risking pulling a crew off the line. That's why I asked for feedback. CDF Mike: If complying with safety is "keeping us from doing our job".....God protect you and your crew. Old Fire Guy
02/28	Hows it going ? Mellie I was reading your submission in regards to wildland programs being offered and its great to see your enthusiasm to help others. I dont mean to be disrespectful by any means but In regards to the JAC program, there is some more information you might want to pass on. I just recently completed the advanced academy and at this time the administration is unable to award college credits upon completion. This was not a big issue for some of the people, but for others who were depending on the twenty four credits which we were promised in the contract to finish certain degrees, it was like a war. Not to discredit the program, I thought it was great and, for any one interested in attending it ,you can expect to get most all the training from some of the top people in the fire world. Also it really speeds up the training process, which for some areas of the country it would take alot more than two years to get all of these courses offered. One of the courses that stood out the most for me was the class offered by the people at MCS. Fireline Leadership . It is a course that finally deals with the "HOW" instead of the "WHAT" in regards to leadership . With most all the people who attend the academy, once you're done, your forest or district will probably be pushing you into some kind of supervision role and the concepts you learn in this class will help you throughout your career. Probably the most asked question I get from perspective attendants is how hard are the PT's ? I can tell you, you better be ready to do some running. Many of the crew bosses that you might be assigned too are either shots or smokejumpers. So it doesn't hurt to be in shape when you get there. Cause their going to push you. Well thats all I have to say about that. Big Amish
02/28	Hello! I just wanted to thank you for this great web site. I work for CDF. I am telling other firefighters about how cool this site is. I really enjoy the great photos!!!! Thanks again FireFighter Crowe Welcome, FireFighter Crowe. The crowd here has sent in a lot of nice photos. Ab.
02/28	Mellie, I can only speak for my Forest in regards to the Apprentice Academy. To get picked-up for the Apprentice Academy first you have to apply, and that's for seasonals who want to make the U.S. Forest Service a career. We usually open it up in September to all 1st year thru 10 year seasonals. The Forest generally has a number of Apprentices they want to pick up for the up coming Academy depending on the needs of the Forest and availability of spaces allotted to the Forest. Once picked for the Academy, the candidate must go through a physical and a drug test before they attend. If they fail to do this then they will be scratched from the program. They also go through an orientation before they attend where they will order their uniforms and fill out the required paper work. The candidate goes through the Basic Academy first which lasts a month. The following year they go through the Advanced Academy and graduate at the end. As you go through this process, you earn college credit for the classes you attend which can go towards your AS degree. When I went through the Academy, the College through which we received credit was Hanford out of Salinas. Most of the classes you get are S-classes ie, S-131, S-290, S-230 and a host of others. This is just a brief statement on how the process works. I know I'm leaving stuff out. College: Our local College offers a State Certified Firefighter 1 Academy and host of other fire tech. classes. It also offers a wildland fire degree. You should have them on your links page (allan hancock college). As some of readers can attest, when you come to the Vandenberg Training Center you are filling paper work for the College to get College credit for the classes you are attending. Hope this helps out, R-5 Recruiter
02/27	Since nobody else is biting on Fedfires' hint that SCBA discussion might get interesting, here goes: (keep in mind that as of right now, modules on my forest that were 7-day last year are going to be 5-day this year due to funding, and BLM is spending their share of MEL on SCBA's) 1. Has anybody, anywhere, EVER responded to a car fire and actually prevented a total loss?? 2. It's SOP on my forest to respond to dumpster fires with enough water to flood (not fight) the fire. Is it on yours? 3. If we're so willing of late to "disengage" from a fuels/weather/topography situation that is hairy, why can't we "disengage" from a burning car/dumpster/house and fight fire when/if the veg. catches on fire? Oh wait, you say, we might run the risk of the veg. fire getting out of hand. Well, think back to all the times you "backed off" of a bee's nest, a snake den, a cultural resource, a barrel of mystery goo, etc. What makes a motor home so different? What about the last time some joker touched off a slash pile in August? Didn't you back off from the radiant heat to a safe distance and put your line in there? Sven
02/27	First of all I like to apologize, I got a bit more negative towards the end of my last post than I meant to. Recently ran into some of the previously mentioned "buttheads" (hey this is a family friendly site, can't use the term I really call 'em) and didn't allow myself time to cool off before responding to the SCBA post, oh well I'm moving so I'm allowed some stress.... To rephrase in a more diplomatic way, I should have said..... The two Forests I worked on as a permanent (I worked on other forests as a seasonal) had well established "good old boy" networks, rewarding the "good old boys" and trying to drive out the "new guys" for other "good old boys". is this situation common on other forests as well or was I just lucky? Lets just say I wasn't terribly impressed with some of the EEO practices I saw. I don't want to discourage potential new hires from the job. I enjoyed most of the time I spent with the USFS and would consider a return at some point. So again sorry for the uncalled for ranting. Norcal Capt. My mistake, I thought the 4 SCBA policy had been adopted since the Model 62's were coming with 4 SCBA seats until the 2001 models came out. Mellie I believe Bakersfield college also participates in ROP and I'm pretty sure Allan Hancock College in Santa Barbara Co participates in the JAC. Other schools with 2 year fire degrees are Chabot college in Hayward, CA chabotweb.clpccd.cc.ca.us/, College of Marin in Kentfield, CA www.marin.cc.ca.us/, Cabrillo college in Aptos www.cabrillo.cc.ca.us/, and Mission college in Santa Clara, CA www.missioncollege.org/ Fedfire
02/27	OFD, I haven't been west, so I know my perspective is skewed, but we do use SO's on larger incidents here, and my experience is the BS'ers you would hope to help focus would just focus when they see the SO coming. Or they would give a bunch of bull answers. I don't think you can legislate people to think better. Adding another person to look over their shoulder just lets the crew bosses a little bit off the hook. "Why didn't the SO catch the fact that my men were out of the loop?" There already is an accountability system in place, adding more to it wont make it work any better. Those who chose to make their men focus, and lead them to be aware will continue to do so. Those who don't, wont. All that would happen is the SO and the Crew boss, who happen to be old buds, would laugh about what dumb*sses their men are and then go on to share some war stories about the good old days when you only had two men and one shovel to patrol the entire northwest....blah blah blah. I wasn't picking a fight, I agree with your intent. I don't know how to make someone respect their dangerous profession more. Maybe a trip to the morgue or a hospital burn unit once a year. On a lighter note, I wanted to share something for the pranksters. As we sat enjoying some liquid sunshine, (4 inches in the rain gauge) my partner and I fell into a great gag on the boss. We had scanned a Florida Fire Fighter's patch onto the computer in order to have some made locally. While trying to clean up the image I accidently turned the patch hot pink. I dont remember who decided to send a "memo" to my boss about the new patch for supervisors, but I will admit it was me that added the line about the new day-glo pink nomex jumpsuits that were on order. You know, to help identify supervisors on the fireline............. When this memo was found on the shop fax the next day, my boss had a fit. He sat at his desk muttering repeatedly "I just wont do it. They can't make me." I let him stew for a long while, but I did let him off the hook when I saw him reach for the phone to "have it out with the DM about this!" It gave all of us a laugh, I hope it does the same for you guys. Be safe!!! Flash in Fl
02/27	RR here's a site for Missoula Smokejumpers - Aerial Wildland Firefighters www.missoulasmokejumpers.com/ note:  page will not display in some older browsers. Must have Internet Explorer 5.0+ or Netscape 6.0+ Firescribe A little warning: I use older versions of these browsers and this site hangs up my computer. Ab.
02/27	Here is the link to the Utah Fire and Rescue Academy. The Academy is based at Utah Valley State College and offers some great courses. I didn't see a link to it, so here it is: www.uvsc.edu/ufra/ Thanks, fifidaCraig EMFD If you send these in, I'll forward them on to Mellie. Ab.
02/27	RE: Safety Officer and Old Fire Guy and CDF Mike exchange, Mike, I somewhat agree with OFG. Safety Officers can be very useful to the IC, and that is who he/she works for. As a safety officer, I have asked exactly those questions and gotten the same answers. It's a "watch out" situation. I do not exactly agree with his problem solving, however. Safety Officer should have the authority to stop an unsafe operation, but should do so with some judgment. Removing a crew from the line at the wrong time, could endanger other people, and may be unnecessary, usually a good Safety Officer is in tune with the IC, he/she functions as the IC's representative and is responsible to the IC. When a problem is raised, mitigate it, move on. Make sure it is not chronic. I do not agree that every division everywhere needs a safety officer. It is an amount of hazard and span of control issue. If the DIVS or IC has time to function as his own safety officer, then fine. Where I believe safety officers are under-utilized is in extended attack, where things are confused and usually we are hanging out on several of the 18's. The purpose of a safety officer is to have a person who is solely concentrating on safety issues and not overwhelmed by ops, logistics, dispatchers asking for information, etc. Some places use 'em others forget to order them, ICs forget to assign one. Remember, a Safety officer is like that water tender you ordered just to get it headed this way, if you don't need them you send 'em home, but if you wait too long, it can't help you. My opinion is if a type III IC is assigned, a safety officer should be assigned also. Remember, one requirement to be a safety officer in 310 or the USFS quals is to first be an experienced operations overhead, so they usually are skilled firefighers themselves (should be, I have met some I wondered about, another story). Due to 30-mile, ICs in the Fed agencies are going to see increased accountability for operational safety. I think a good safety officer could have made the difference at 30-Mile. My other experience with safety officers was as a volunteer FD chief. We and the neighboring district worked together and assigned safety officers to each incident, sharing each other's folks. It made a difference in being IC. Volunteers can be an experience, and as IC it made my life easier to have a SO I trusted sharing the load. Well nuff, but if CDF is fine and safe without Safety Officers, if ICs and DIVS can handle it, more power to ya, but I am certain the Feds need 'em. Stay safe out there, olddog
02/27	Hello All, Boy was it hot in LA on Th/Fri and last weekend!!! Flying over CA always makes me appreciate what a beautiful part of the world I live in. Thanks SoCalCapt for the offer. Good job, too with your research on the CDL and the links. I noticed two weeks ago that people were asking again about training and schools that had fire science, firefighter training and fire ecology kinds of classes and majors. As a result of those posts, I put a push on to finish up several links pages on 2 and 4 year schools with some fire curriculum and a list of the Regional Occupational Programs (ROP) that have firefighter training. Wow, some of those courses get college credit! I did the Humboldt ROP course in 2000 and found it to be very good - worthy of college credit. Thanks to JBJ in the RO for giving me some info for the schools lists. (Oh, and while I'm thinking of it... someplace in all this should be a link to Camp Blaze for young women. Good summer training there.) If anyone has schools I have missed, and I'm sure there are a number out there, please send me the link. I'll check them and add 'em on. The object is to have enough places that people can get a start. Many enquiries about how to pursue a wildland fire career come from around the US, especially from the non-west. For young folks in R5, I still think one of the best ways to make FED FIRE a career is to get that foot-in-the-door FS, BLM, NPS job, get S-130, S-190, etc that comes with the job, do a season of fire and then ask to be sent to the JAC Academy. As I understand it, college credit accompanies that training. (BTW, I'm just picking fed because I'm not so familiar with the state JAC academies.) Now that I think of it, could someone who refers people to the JAC Academy please explain the sequence of getting hired the first year, the S- and I- Course training, and how one gets to go to the JAC Academy later. What do people have to do to stand out as likely candidates? Can temps go, or just perms? What about perm part vs full-time? (Uh-oh, my ignorance with the process is showing!) R-5 Recruiter and others, Please take a look at the ROP classes that have College Credit (A in the Art or Articulated column). Do any of you SoCal and Middle Cal folks know what jr colleges or colleges are sponsoring that credit? I know the Shasta Trinity ROP course is affiliated with Shasta College. What about Calaveras Co ROP, Baldy View ROP, San Bernardino ROP, Fresno ROP and Kern High School Dist ROCenter? I'm wondering if I've missed some colleges/univ on the schools list that are affiliated with those ROP programs. It would be nice to cross-link the lists so people can maximize their career efforts. Does anyone know what school the JAC Academy is affiliated with so folks get credit? We're building a new fire organization here! Mellie I put links to these educational and training resources on the Links page. Thanks Mellie, we do get lots of enquiries from wannabees and their moms and perspective ff. Season is kinda past for this year, but this will help for next year and might help some young people decide where they could go for college with fire emphasis if they're so inclined.
02/27	Is there a web site for the smoke jumper training center in Missoula? Thanks, RR This is all I know of: www.fs.fed.us/fire/operations/jumpers/jumper_list.shtml. Readers, anything new with a web page? Ab.
02/27	AB and All, I appreciate the input I have gotten from everyone on the CDL issue. I talked to DMV and they told me " if it carries 10 people including the driver, you need a CDL" and then she went on to tell me that if I really want to know to call CHP and ask if "you will be cited for not having one (a CDL)". So much for that, after waiting 15 minutes for a real person on the other end... back to square one. My original intent was to conform to the law (Fed & CA), not skirt it and try and get away with anything. I found in the driver examiner (FS-R5) handbook that any vehicle with air brakes requires a CDL, even if under 26000 GVW, so be it. As for me and my crew, we will follow the law. I will strive for the firefighter restricted license, takes less time and we are pretty picky about "who" gets trained to drive anyway. BTW, there are 8 seats in back, just like every other crew buggie the FS has. So now comes the fun part, with a crew of 29 people, it should be interesting. Sting And on that note this Ab says, "enough of this thread."
02/27	Ok I finally posed the CDL question to hubby (a state cop here in NV) and he said that if you are not endorsed for that particular vehicle "DON'T" get behind the wheel!! You are creating a huge liability for yourself your fellow firefighters and your employer. If you happen to have to deal with this particular situation keep dated notes on conversations with your superiors, when you report it to them so that if you do get hauled into court for an accident caused by an improperly licensed driver your hinny is covered. From the aspect of dealing with LEO's you take a huge gamble! You could get pulled over and very well get a hard a$$ punk that will nail you to the letter of the law simply because he can. Or you could get lucky and get a cop like hubby who would just make a properly licensed driver take over at the wheel (if one is not rested enough to drive you get to park it until he/she is ok to drive). Just my/his $.02 Skyeblue
02/27	Fedfire- Current R5 policy only calls for 3 SCBA per engine (1995 R5 SCBA Standard Operating Procedures), although some forests opt for 4 or 5. The region still interprets 2 in/2 out as only applicable to interior attack. There truly is a huge variation of levels of turnouts as you say. The R5 Captain's Committee is working on an update of the SOPs. Bringing R5 into compliance with OSHA, including requiring a minimum of 4 SCBAs per engine, with full turnouts, and real fit tests, are some of the objectives. Hopefully, the bean counters will stay out of it. Each forest has a representative to the committee, feel free to contact your rep with your thoughts on this. -NorCal Capt.
02/26	The Series 0462, and 0455 are updated. Will update the Jobs Page in the morning. Ab.
02/26	"Old Fire Guy" suggested: <<A Safety Officer is assigned to every division to walk the line. Duties include asking firefighters questions relating to the ten standard orders..... "Where is your safety zone, and what is your escape route?" Crew bosses may be asked "Who is the IC?" An answer of "I don't know" would result in the stand down of that crew for the remainder of the day. Instructions would be for the crew leader to explain how they will ensure compliance before being returned to duty. There is certainly room for accountability for STLS and DIVS also, but this would focus on the folks who have the most at risk to ensure they are in full compliance. Suggestions for improving on this idea?>> Oh yeah. That's what we need. A whole new layer of bureaucracy keeping us from doing our jobs. Boy*6%$Howdy! This is the sort of thing I expect from Sacramento. I'm putting that one right up there with the suggestion that we Crew Captains stop every half hour and compute our firefighter's pulse rate and body temperature. CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande.
02/26	If Bungie wants to continue to make outrageous claims about driving & licensing violations, maybe he/she should document all these "known violations" and submit them to somewhere or someone capable of and authorized to deal with it, instead of just ranting unleased in the "they said" forum with no attribution or backup. If what Bungie says is true, we all need to know about this in an agency accountability forum. If what Bungie claims is just claims, then we can do without any more of this. BL
02/26	Hello A, Attached is a link to a photo page to the fire in New South Wales this year in Shoalhaven, I hope the link works for you if you do not have it already. http://www.shoalhaven.info/.au Greg G. Deputy Fire Control Officer Culcairn Rural Fire District Thanks Greg. I can't remember for sure if we have it already, but it is fun to go and look. Ab.
02/26	Bungie, The reason they went into the weigh station was most likely they were OBEYING THE LAW! Federal vehicles are not exempt from motor vehicle regulations. (At least not here in California.) That includes stopping at all open weigh stations. Stu
02/26	Bungie Just checking, your post made it sound like the restricted license didn't exist. Yes, I too have "heard" the USFS requires the full commercial license but there are many working with the restricted license, and I have never seen anything in writing requiring the commercial license. I have the commercial and always encourage people to get that one, I've seen too many people with the restricted license who think they can drive anything with it as long as they work for fire. SCBAs Oh, boy this one might get interesting. To start with 2 SCBA's on each engine is basically worthless as it does not comply with OSHA as soon as you enter the smoke since you do not have a backup crew (2 in 2 out). R5 has settled on a policy of 4 SCBA's on engines to meet this requirement. However you still find many engines short of this number, the typical answer to this is "we don't have room". Which I think is crap, I've worked on Model 20's, 42's, 51's, 52's, 61's and 62's all except the Model 20's and 52's found room for at least 4 SCBA's and spare bottles, I've seen 51's and 62's that had 5. I never tried to put SCBA's on the Mod 20's or 52's but that was R3 and they don't use SCBA's, but I'm sure I could have found space for the 3 that would be required. I think the real answer for most is "we don't care, we don't want them anyway". I'm glad to see R5 chose to follow OSHA however the policy doesn't meet NFPA which requires 1 SCBA for each person on the fire ground who could become involved in a hazardous environment (smoke), that definately should include the Engineer (sure the wind never changes direction) and could easily include BC's and DIV's (sorry AFMO and FMO) most structure departments interpret NFPA this way and provide an SCBA for Chief officers. So to be compliant with NFPA the policy should be one SCBA for each member of the crew (or 5 per engine). NFPA also requires a spare air cylinder for each SCBA carried. Before people start flipping out about how it is not possible to carry all this stuff, I have seen it done, it is not the great hassle people make it out to be particularly with the Model 62's. I find it interesting that the USFS is making sure apparatus meet NFPA equipment requirements but does not follow NFPA 1500 (safety) which has been adopted by most fire agencies. The cost of equipping with SCBA's is relatively low, typical set up of, SCBA, spare bottle, PASS, structure turnouts and helmet runs about $3000 per person, this will last from 10-15 years so it is a one time cost of $15,000 which works out to around $1500 per year. Don't know if you have any input into the SCBA program BLM is starting but I would suggest, they do it as an AGENCY, not the hodgepodge the USFS has now with every forest running a different brand SCBA, and a thrift store selection of turnouts, some PBI some nomex, some with full gear (Helmet, boots, coat, pants, hood) others with only coats and everything in between, some districts don't even match engine to engine. How many forests are using hand me down equipment from a local structure department. Oh well, its only safety equipment. I do realize most managers are having to do this without any extra money which is not how it should be, sometimes I have to look at the Federal Government and shake my head, you would think we were a volunteer agency that had to hold a bakesale to get new equipment. I'll get off my soap box now. I've got another question, ever since I got a permanent appointment I've run into many people in the USFS that seem to believe only they know how to fight fire (the individual not the agency). Coming in as an outsider is a pain, no matter how many times you "prove" yourself on a fire you are still (one of those California guys or a R3 guy), it was so bad when I came back to R5 that the Forest training specialist tried to tell me my NWCG quals earned in R3 didn't count in R5 (they eventually relented). Have I just had bad luck in locations or is this common everywhere. On both Forests I worked on as a permanent most of the people were "locals" born and bred in the local area, never worked anywhere else. I noticed I was not the only one this happend to, this seemed to occur to anyone from "elsewhere", performance had nothing to do with it, good or bad we all sucked and were incompetent, which I find funny since I have never even come close to causing an injury despite busy fire seasons, I am a safe but aggressive firefighter, I keep my fires small (for the most part) and don't break equipment. I have met some great people in the USFS but I seem to wind up working around alot of buttheads (thankfully I have had a few people to guide me along the path, so I don't lose confidence). I was often treated as if I could not complete the simplest task but always completed my work on time and satisfactorialy even while others who could not perform but were "locals" slid by despite failure after failure. Seems that to many time in service counts more than actual ability. I did structure fire 5 years (volunteer and paid federal) before the USFS and never encountered attitudes this bad. I moved back to a fedfire structure department and again these attitudes are not present (they even made me the resident wildland fire guru, responsible for wildland training and equipment, so I can keep coming here and bugging the nice folks at theysaid). I would just write the whole experience off and move on except I did have alot of fun with the USFS and think that while screwed up it is a good agency. You can't beat the scenery either. While the new job is going great, I would consider giving the USFS another shot down the road if I thought these were isolated experiences. Don't see many posters form the NPS, anyone have inside knowledge of working as a parky, I know they seem to be more progressive on the non wildland front than the other Fed Wildland agencies (adopted structural responsibilities and EMS into their job descriptions many years ago). Fedfire
02/26	An-R5er, Ten seats in the back? Ten in the back with two up front, that adds up to twelve. With 12, the driver needs a CDL with passenger endorsement and if the vehicle has airbrakes, an airbrake endoresement. Without the two "extra" seats in the back, for a total capacity of ten, a "c" license is valid, even without the airbrake endorsement. (Unless the vehicle is "for hire" as a transport such as a bus, taxi, limo etc.) Stu
02/26	Regarding CDL's No CDL in a "CDL" vehicle - You're Nuts! Do you think for one second uncle sam ain't gonna hang you out to dry if you get in a wreck and someone sues them and you? This goes along the same lines why alot of LEO's are getting extra "professional liability" insurance... I say, if you are not licensed to drive it, don't...let the overhead figure it out. MrChooChoo
02/26	R5-er.................I know of at least 7 instances of not properly Lic personnel driving CDL equipment. 2 instances where people with Child support revocations were still driving. and one instance of an Apprentice not having a lic at all ( due to something they were doing) I do beleive that obtaining a CDL is a condition of hire....... I know all the above were brought to the attention of MGMT......and nothing was done.........now these are just what I know of........ Also note.........a supervisor with a Firefighter exempt lic can not act as a The Lic driver for a CDL Permitee. Something I have seen happen several times in several regions. On another note........I have heard of several instances where Engines were weighed at weigh stations and made to dump water to meet the weight regulations for particular states. Why a Fed vehicle went into a weigh station is beyond me.....they are exempt......but that happens too....... Bungie
02/26	From AZ republic and Judd Slivka: Dry days fan fears of fiery summer Firescribe
02/26	Bungie, Your comment about non-licensed drivers is ridiculous. If that is commonplace, I would apply to another Forest. If there is an accident, then you should feel just as much responsible as the upper management for letting this go on. MJ, Just saw the new buggies yesterday. If I remember right, they have ten seats in the back and yes they are nice. An-R5er
02/26	RE: Jonathan Oppenheimer of Taxpayers for Common Sense Ol Jonny boy has some good points- waste is a bad thing and the leaches that are feeding on the fire budget need to be brushed off. But alas he offers no alternatives. Everybody hates to pay taxes and waving flags is a hell of a lot cheaper way to show our love of country. But life isn't free and the country as we know and love it could be gone in the wink of an eye. That includes our freedom as well as the watersheds which sustain us. I witnessed the days when we had no money to staff engines or offer permanent appointments. We were no more efficient back then. The public saved nothing- the politicians only forestalled the inevitable at greater cost in terms of national wealth, resources and human lives. Don't be hosed by the old "something for nothing" song and dance. It's your lives- it's your communities that will pay the price of ignoring the problem. I say pay now and spread the costs among all Americans. The cost is minuscule in terms of the Gross National Product, while the cost of doing nothing has been exploding exponentially. The trick here is to place a limit on the overhead costs and fund "from the bottom up". We need all those smiling young faces who have decided to take up our profession. Without them, we are just another bunch of puking old farts in yellow shirts- breathing heavy on a steep hillside somewhere- and that could be a truly ugly sight. Keep America Beautiful- Fund the National Fire Plan. Jimmy Wornoutknees of the West Amen. Ab.
02/26	It is too painfully obvious that fatalities on wildland fire most often involve a violation of one or more of the ten standard orders. Question: Would the following have a positive effect on attitude/ownership of these orders? : A Safety Officer is assigned to every division to walk the line. Duties include asking firefighters questions relating to the ten standard orders..... "Where is your safety zone, and what is your escape route?" Crew bosses may be asked "Who is the IC?" An answer of "I don't know" would result in the stand down of that crew for the remainder of the day. Instructions would be for the crew leader to explain how they will ensure compliance before being returned to duty. There is certainly room for accountability for STLS and DIVS also, but this would focus on the folks who have the most at risk to ensure they are in full compliance. Suggestions for improving on this idea? Old Fire Guy
02/26	Ab, On all the driving hub bub, hey guys/gals.. the gov has us getting CDL's to cover a major hypothetical crash. Man, I detailed to a SE NPS area that let anyone.... I mean any one haul a rinky dink, put together trailer that hauled 500 gallons of jet A, across the damned state! No I'm not kidding! Accident waiting to happen... hell yes! So for those of you who are complaining about other districts/forests/parks not requiring one, just wait, they'll catch up to reality. The CDL thing is a good promotion, it may cost a little cash and require a little gov time sitting in the DMV (or a ton if you're in Colo), but over all it make our drivers train a little more for the job that they've been hired to do. Ab, you already got word but we're pickin' up some fires around the Reno/Carson area, no predictions, but some of us are having to turn that pile of junk in the garage back into an I.A. pack. All Ya all, quit whining about the CDL's, and we all know that mel maddness sucks!.... and that people who want jobs are getting the royal shaft! Deal with it for now and write to the right people so that we don't have to deal with this hiring crap ever again and so that we have the right people on the line. Enough blabbing Thanx ab Late Irate
02/26	FedFire, If you're not properly licensed you don't drive period. Fire Fighter endorsement doesn't work here." Yes, it is a valid license, my current forest does not recognize it for the reason it restricts the holder to Fire Trucks only. Which means you can't drive other "B" vehicles, FS or rented. If you operate a Engine you'll have the full Class B. Bungie
02/26	In reference to the comment about fire engines being pulled over: you CA people are weird... in Minnesota the police and fire are on the same side, dont-ya-know :) stay safe AC
02/26	Evening all, I'm headed to the BLM California Fire Equipment meeting this week and wanted to prompt some discussion on the matter of SCBA's. CA BLM has decided to move into the all risk arena with the addition of BA's. Expenditures have already been authorized to equip each type 3 engine with at least two BA's, turnouts, and one service tech.. BLM will for now utilize them on vehicle fires and keep out of structures. I realize this has been prompted by political pressure and the need to justify budgets and etc. I was however wondering if anybody out there had seen any scientific evidence that justifies this expenditure. Did the pressure to have BA's come from folks wanting us to save lives or property? If BLM equips the engines with only BA's and turnouts how do we perform the extrication? If its just a typical vehicle fire with no accident, then most folks can safely exit the vehicle, right? So BLM arrives and saves the property, which in turn is totaled out by most insurance carriers. Basically I feel that BA's by themselves are cool to have but don't really justify the expense. On another point here we are again training folks up to head to the greener pastures of state and local fire departments. How big is too big? I had a chance to check out the brand new model 14 coming out of Pierce. Its huge! Its 3.5' longer than the first and second generation 14's. It still only has 500 gal. I was told that you can up it to 750 gal by losing some compartment space. We are getting a new one next year and are opting for the larger tank. Overall its a nice piece of equipment with decent power, an exhaust brake that actually works and some other cool features. USFS FEO - Maybe I can have your old Alias? (Just kidding, you seem to have a lot of knowledge and I wouldn't want somebody mistaking my ramblings and dumb questions for yours.) I just took a job as an FEO on the Stanislaus. BLM needs more trees man. BLM FEO (For a couple more months at least)
02/25	Jay, The new contract for CDF does not address much for seasonals. They continue to be the bastard children for contractual issues. They do receive a small raise in pay I believe. Most of the money CDF folks will receive is in year four and five of the contract. It looks to be significant if the department stays with our current work week schedule. If they go to a traditional 3 platoon system we could loose much of the incentive to this contract. Open list for Fire Captain is coming so brush up the resume if you willing to cross over to the red trucks? We could use some new blood and expertise from our Federal brother and sister Firefighters. Jake
02/25	Hey Sting, Those new crew buggies are nice! How many seats are in the back ?. Someone told me that the new ones only had 6 in the back. -MJ
02/25	It has been a normal weekend here on the front range of Colorado. Saturday it was in the 70's, with a 200 acre fire above Fort Collins. A couple of fires in Boulder County. One in Lefthand Canyon, North of Boulder, which burned about 40 acres next to the area I fought the LeftHand Canyon fire in 1988 that burned I think about 1000 acres. My first major wildland fire as a flatland structure, grass firefighter. They also had a small fire down by Rocky Flats. Then on Sunday they and some guy fall out of his boat on Boulder Reservior and they haven't found him yet. Fifteen minutes later the fire department was called that a climber fell off of one of the Flatirons. So just a normal day in the Emergency business in this area. Oh yes, I woke up this morning to 3" of snow and the wind blowing and now I hear it is sunny. So if I don't like things, I just wait 5 minutes and it will change. We had a 300 acre fire down in Thornton last week, and a 700 acre fire on Fort Carson land (Army) south of Colorado Springs. It is a normal late winter with no moisture and people thinking that since it is winter that everything is wet. That is all right, in Greeley a couple of weeks ago, they had a warehouse fire with sheep hides in it and they used 2-3 million gallons of water on it. So we will have less water to use on our Blue Grass. Most of that water was in the street, not on the fire, because it all ran out of the building. But water is free. If I am lucky, the sun is out and I won't have to use my snow shovel when I get home. And we should have more fires by next week. CAFSman
02/25	chogi..... No I never said I endorsed anything. However I have seen and heard numerous incidents of non lic drivers driving engines and other function folks driving equipment they are not lic for......it is commonplace...... not legal but commonplace....... what happens to these people and their supervisors....... nothing........ until the accident happens. Bungie Not commonplace on my forest. Ab.
02/25	Stu: Your tip on locating Dennis C. was correct. Much thanks! pulaski
02/25	Does anybody have details regarding the new CDF contract and how it affects seasonals? Thanks... Jay U.S.F.S.
02/25	"I also remember another engine pulled over in Yosemite while going code 3 to structure protection." A LEO I worked with related a story from his fire days (late 70's), seems he was working in Arizona and went on an assignment covering a station in Southern California, AZ runs Red and Blue lights. CHP pulled them over en route to a fire to cite them for the blue lights (as CA reserves blue for law enforcement) while the CHP wrote the citation the foreman whipped out his ticket book and wrote the CHP a citation for interfering with a federal officer in the performance of his duties. Apparently both citations got thrown out by the judge for being stupid. NPS can also be weird. I had another story related to me by a CDF captain who went to Yellowstone in 1988. He said an NPS LEO was rabidly trying to write this CDF striketeam parking tickets for staging in a meadow. Thankfully I have not had to deal with anybody this dense, although I have occasionally wondered if there wasn't more to these stories than I was told. "If you're not properly licensed you don't drive period. Fire Fighter endorsement doesn't work here." Understand and agree with the the first of your statement, but you've got me confused with the second part, the Firefighters Restricted License is a valid license. Speaking of licenses, how many of you are aware that Commercial drivers under 21 can not drive outside of their licensing state. Had this one pointed out by the DMV this past fall. Seems this has been in place for sometime but was not enforced, but since the WTC incident it is being enforced. We looked it up in the DMV commercial handbook and it is there. They can't have Hazmat endorsements either. This is a DOT restriction so it does not vary state by state. Age Previous Federal service would have to be in a permanent fire position, seasonal fire time before 1989 used to count, but I have heard that the rules changed last year and no seasonal time may be counted anymore. I have heard military time may be used to offset age but I'm not sure about that. I have heard that class action law suits have been tried in the past and failed. Age restrictions are rare in the western states but are quite common back east. Boston has an MEA of 32 and I have heard FDNY has one of 24 or so. The courts apparently have no problem upholding these restrictions. I know of no ways around the age from the employees side. I heard of an incident a few years back in R5 where a JAC was hired went through the program and then personnel decided she was too old by days or months and told the agency they had to let her go. Never heard anything more about how this was resolved. Only thing I could advise is to look for a secondary position, these vary in type. Sometimes prevention or fuels jobs will be done this way and many tankerbase jobs are secondary. The advantage to this is that it gets you in the system and may help if the agency ever changes its stance on the age restriction. I do know of one individual who got hired in a secondary prevention job, but during the summer his "patrol" (a Type 6 engine) was augmented with 2 seasonal firefighters (the Forest found a creative way around the age to get somebody they wanted as an engine foreman). This same Forest was also looking to start a trail crew that would double as a 10 person fire crew. This was also being done as a secondary position. This was Arizona so you might try looking there. Others in the Region may be doing similar things as they are having a difficult time filling positions with qualified individuals. Doesn't sound like it matters to you (as with most over 37) but be aware that if you get hired into a secondary position you do not get fire retirement. Unless you are coming in directly from a primary covered position without a break in service, secondary positions only get the regular retirement (which is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick). Hmmm, I've been putting this off but since I recently took a job outside of the USFS I guess I really need to change my alias. So with a tear in my eye how about changing to..... FedFire (formerly USFS FEO) Regardless of what you call yourself and what agency you're with, we're glad you're still with us. Ab.
02/25	If you take a look at Ab's news page, you'll see several articles about the fire in NV and an article about a fire in Colorado. Wasn't someone asking about interface problems there? The news last night had a special segment on the Governors' Conference and concerns over droughts across the US. Drought areas included 1) the eastern seaboard and 2) the west, east of the Sierra - parts of R1, R4, R7, and R3. Parts of MN and SD were included in this fairly large inland west area. The reporter said that the fact that it's winter and most places have got some snow/rain, masks the severe lack of ppt. I think he said UT would have to have a foot of rain or equivalent snow in the next month to hit avg ppt. NorCal Tom News page link button at the top of the page. Ab.
02/25	Bungie, Just because you drive a "Fire" vehicle does not make you above the law. State or Federal. I remember back in the 80's a engine returning from a tilt table test was pulled over because the CHP officer believed the headlights were to high for vehicle code. And yes the engine was clearly marked as "Fire" . I also remember another engine pulled over in Yosemite while going code 3 to structure protection. If you're not properly licensed you don't drive period. Fire Fighter endorsement doesn't work here. If you endorse what you wrote, you are the accident waiting to happen, hope no one gets hurt with your practice. chogi
02/25	I'm new to "They Said" so apologies to all if this topic has been discussed before. Seems to me the fed agencies are having a tough time filling positions while shutting out a big pool of experienced firefighters with the age 37 thing. So some questions... Have the agencies considered offering these positions without the "enhanced annuity" (firefighters retirement)? Has anyone talked about a class action lawsuit on behalf of seasonal employees and others over 37? What is considered previous federal service in a covered position to exempt a person from age restriction. Does seasonal time count? What are the ways around the age restriction? Anybody have any tips or experience? GGFire Hi GGFire. Welcome to theysaid. This topic has been pretty beat to death but responses to each of your list of questions would be a good way to organize what we know. Maybe someone will be willing to put together the definitive set of answers. (I don't think anyone has found a way around the MEA.) Otherwise, if you use the search button and enter MEA (maximum entry age) or 35 or 37 as the search word, you can probably come up with most of the archived discussion. Ab.
02/24	Sting and Bungie.... I think the CHP officer that Bungie was talking to was either completely unfamiliar with the non-commercial Class B Firefighters Restricted License or he was from the Canadian Highway Patrol. A little humor this time, I think it may be my first humor here!!! Bungie, have your CHP friend study up a little on the California Vehicle Code, which he is charged with enforcing. If he was correct in his views, the majority of the CDF and local government fire programs would be shut down from engines, to crew hauls, to helitenders, paid and volunteer. A restriction is not a learner's permit. Ab, I initially had a much longer reply but after last nights, I'm having a hard time typing. Sting, here's a good link: www.leginfo.ca.gov/.html/veh_table_of_contents.html I'd go with the info from my post last night and, when you confirm with DMV, ask them for the specific vehicle code that makes it a requirement or non-requirement. I've learned never to let a government agency tell me something was a rule or law unless they could back it up. Its just kinda something I've learned working all these years for the FEDs. SoCalCapt
02/24	As mentioned the GVW is how the DMV classifies vehicles for licensing requirements below Class A, I've driven quite a few different pieces of fire equipment and have never seen a vehicle under 26,000lbs GVW with air brakes, however I also have never seen any regulations preventing their use in lighter vehicles. But I would look at the GVW very carefully. As mentioned it is the GVW rating of the chassis not the actual vehicle weight that determines the type of license required. I second the suggestion of contacting DMV Sacramento. Some years back a question on water tank endorsements for Class C vehicles was raised where I was a volunteer. The Local DMV told the Chief that all the drivers of our Type 4 engines (Type 6 for those outside California) would require Class B licenses due to the water tanks on those engines. Sacramento reversed that and our Class C drivers were once again allowed to operate those vehicles. The bit about the firefighter endorsement is incorrect. An operator with the restricted A or B firefighter license can drive any fire apparatus within their licensing (a firefighter B can not drive equipment requiring an A license). They can drive any fire apparatus their commercial counterpart can under the certain conditions (must be fire apparatus and they must be on duty with a fire agency). The restriction comes into effect when off duty and with non fire equipment. For example Joe Firefighter has a restricted B license; he wants to work for Spiffy Firetrucks Unlimited in the winter; he would only have the equivalent of a Class C license since he is not on duty with a fire agency. Now Joe is back at work and his boss wants him to drive a dump truck for a recreation project; again he would only be permitted to drive a Class C vehicle because the dump truck is not a piece of fire apparatus. The intent of the Firefighter Restricted License is to allow fire agencies to license their people without having to go through the hassle of going to the DMV and keeping the medicals current (the department takes some liability with their own designated testing people and a medical questionnaire). Many fire departments utilize this type of license and drive loaded apparatus all over town between calls, going to the auto shop etc, not just empty fire apparatus to fires, what would the point of that be? BTW the buggies look good, but I'm surprised they came white, since the engines that came this summer were green. Hope you don't need a Class B, its a pain getting and keeping drivers. On the earlier topic of drinking, if you do have to go with Class B drivers, make sure they understand that the blood alcohol limit is 1/2 normal, a hangover could very well get them a DUI. No big revelation but drivers can not get hammered the night before they drive. Also moving violations are doubled. On second thought, maybe all agency vehicles should require Class B's. As for the F550's I'm not familiar with the crew buggies but I put 13,000 miles on an F450 Engine in 1999, loved it, great vehicle, only complaint was the forest didn't take full advantage of the chassis, limiting its potential gains over the typical 1 ton. USFS FEO
02/24	Fire yesterday in the Great Basin, 50 mi SE of Carson City NV... http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2002/02/23/8520.php Seems there should be some info at the Sierra Front website, but I can't find it. Anyone know the url? Tim www.sierrafront.net/ but not much new up... Ab.
02/24	Sting et al, Just spoke to a CHP buddy of mine...... Any vehicle with a gross vehicle wt. over 26,001# requires a CDL class B Lic. Now that Gross Wt is based on the manufacturer's Max Gross Wt. Not what your rig weighs. That's to say if your rig only weighs 15k but the tag on the door says gross Vehicle Wt of 28k.... you need a Class B CDL. Now the Firefighter Exept Endorsement, That's a separate Beast. It is ONLY good for driving equipment to and from an incident. That means No personnel other than Driver And definitely no crew in the buggy or Engine. If it has air brakes you need that "endorsement" or "non restricted" status. Will you get away with having nothing at all....sure, because the chance of CHP asking you to see it is nil......... unless you have the misfortune to have an accident....... then the heads will roll...... Good luck with the new Buggies, they look sharp. Bungie
02/24	Ab, BN, I have been in the prevention game for a long time and pretty much have given up trying to convince home owners that "an once of prevention" might save their home and maybe even their ass. I have participated in numerous programs to lessen the danger to homes in the "urban interface" with varying amounts of success. I have written and received grants and then could not find anyone willing to spend the money to accomplish the task. I have been through "Home Safe Home" "No Fire in My Backyard" and a few others. Needless to say I am less than enthusiastic for the latest and greatest programs. Fuels reduction is the 'buzz word' now. Homeowners are all for it -- if someone will come and do the project for free. How many times have I heard "I have lived here 'X' years and we have NEVER had a wild fire," even though their property is covered with fire scared trees. I heard a great quote many years ago "The interest in fire prevention is directly related to the heat of the ashes." This is so true. Right after a large fire, when there is lots of "press" I have had good luck in "selling" fire prevention but for the most part I felt like I was just spinning my wheels. I can't count how many hours I have spent at county fairs, home shows and other community events trying to "sell" prevention and the only time I could get a crowd near the booth is when Smokey was there. The most thankless job there is in fire world, is trying to do a fire prevention program in January or February when it is 35 degrees outside and the rain is coming in sideways. Been there -- done that -- and don't want the tee shirt. former Wildfire Prevention person,
02/24	To Mellie- You asked me (in They Said) about a link to fire research at Yellowstone for those college guys, and if the link was working. Yes, here is a link, and it is working: www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/yellowstone/ I don't think there's much there about Ponderosa pine, though. Jackson
02/23	Sting, here's some info that I drummed up after the marathon chat last night.... Hope it helps.... I think there were 16 folks chatting at one time... Lots of good info going 'round California Commercial Drivers Handbook: Check out section #1 "Who needs a CDL?" www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/comlhdbk/comlhdbk.pdf LARGE 1485 K Its says that Class C drivers only need a CDL if they are driving a vehicle that requires an endorsement. Specifically there are two that would be most common... hazmat carriers and hazmat waste haulers... The air brake thing for CDL drivers is not an endorsement... but there is such a thing as "hydraulic brakes only" restriction. I took my CDL test in a vehicle that had air brakes.. no restriction. There is a whole list of restrictions (ie-manual transmission only) but very few actual endorsements.... As far as I could tell by looking at the CVC and DMV literature today... restriction only applies to Class A or Class B vehicles and not to the very few Commercial Class C endorsed vehicles. That's just my opinion on my reading. Probably your best bet would be to make contact directly with the DMV in Sacramento. Avoid calling the local DMV offices as you will probably get twelve different answers from twelve different people. Hope that made sense. Here's the literature... Ab, I hope its not to long or maybe you could just send the rest to Sting..... SoCalCapt For the rest of it, click HERE... Ab.
02/23	Greetings All. We're trying to get caught up with photos. Here are some messages, information and links to the updated photo pages: Ab, Just for the record -- the two photos in Air Tanker 3 photo page labeled Germany 1 and Germany 2 are photos taken by BLM staff photographers. Tanker 67 is an old photo of a civilian C-130; the DC-7 photo is also many years old. We have the originals here at NIFC. BAP Nice to have the mystery resolved. Ab changed the names to C-130 and DC-7. Ab, These are some photo's of a chopper that was on the moose fire. Shawn E. I put them on the Moose Fire page, last two at the end. Nice ones. Readers, we are still looking for the photographer of the original Moose Fire photos. We have a lead from one of the Humphrey's Team Info Officers, but as the DOI sites have been down, we haven't been able to follow up. Ab. On the Equipment 4 Page, some So Cal Rx fire photos from R5-er. Nice helitorch, batch mixer, helo, etc. Also, here's a photo of a sky crane with fuel tender for size comparison from Hickman who sez, "How big are those things anyway?" Ab, I hope this is the how I submit a photo...this is E-91 Mesa Verde National Park. I am seasonal structure fire protection fire fighter for MVNP. Thanx for all the work on the web site. Larry Ya got it right Larry, thanks. I put it on the Engines 4 Page. Ab. Also put up a number of photos up on Fire 9 and Handcrew 4. Fire 9 photos include some shots of the Division Fire plume from EAW, of the Nebo Creek Fire from NP, a Lava Beds National Monument Rx burn from MR, and a spot over a road from JFF. The Crew 4 photos include a Modoc IHC and Lava Beds National Monument Rx crew pics from MR and a "friends in a hollow tree" photo from Joanna. Read the photo descriptions for all the details. Many thanks to all contributors. I think we're caught up for the moment. If we've missed one, let us know. Ab.
02/23	Nice rigs Sting. Any body got any pictures of the new style 6 person crew carriers(F-550)? Also how are they working out. Getting tired or training up CDL drivers and loosing them every couple years, would like to try the small ones next go round. Backburnfs.
02/23	Ab: Interesting post about the interface problem in Colorado. I haven't been through there for awhile, but as a consultant to agencies and homeowners associations I can tell you that there is without a doubt a common thread throughout the western states. Universally, wherever I go I get the same response...that being "we're insured". One example in particular is in the same area the 49ER fire ravaged in central California. I consult with folks that rely on a single engine volunteer response as their first defense that saw the glow, watched the flames but escaped the firefront; have given ZERO consideration to defensible space, have high priced homes and rely on insurance to make it right after the fact. Until we change the mindset of those that have more money than brains we're going to have an interface problem that will do nothing but get worse. BN
02/23	Hi Ab and All, Just picked up our new buggies. Here are some pictures in case you haven't seen them yet. Yes, they are white. They handle very nicely, good turn radius, governor kicks in about 72mph (someone had to test it!!) 7 speed (Low + 6), cruise control and exhaust brake. Does anybody have any REAL HARD facts about the licensing requirement for these? they have air brakes but are under Class B for GVW. Any help would be appreciated. Sting I posted them on the equipment 4 page. Ab.
02/23	Someone was asking last night in chat if anyone knew about the serious interface problem on the Pike NF in Colorado. None of us chatting were from CO. Anyone hear of any particular problem that is different from anywhere else in the west? Hickman, I'm having trouble getting an e-mail to you and there are several inquiries from folks who want to get with you about training CDs. Can we meet up on chat tonight at 7 PST or if earlier, send me an e-mail please. Ab.
02/22	Hi all, I am looking to buy a line pack / web gear system. Anyone have any suggestions on what to buy. I do a little of everything, engine work to line work. Thanks, RJ MA DEM D-7
02/22	MJ, Thanks for the update and good luck over there. The six rivers has some great people. Anybody hear from the Stanislaus? BLM FEO
02/22	BLM FEO, The LP has made all there job offers for the first round of hiring, second round will start soon, we have alot of AFEO (GS-06) positions open from the promotions. SoCal, It's hot up here also. You be safe down there. An-R5er
02/22	Hey Mellie!! I will be out in California...actually San bernardino...April 15-18th taking the Fireline Emt course....I am going to teach it here in NH in June...provided we aren't burning by then!! You guys may have to come East this summer by the looks of things...dry dry winter...drought conditions and warmer than usual!!! Yikes!!! I am also taking the new S-205 Urban /interface in Nova scotia in the beginning of April...on a real training marathon these days!!! Hope you are doing well!! Firebabe NH You can e-mail me at: firebabenh@hotmail.com
02/22	Hey BLM FEO, I recieved my official job offer on the Six Rivers in Calif. already, with a start date in March. So the Jobs are rolling in! -MJ
02/22	to Stu: Whoa! cool, I will be there! Pulaski
02/22	I have given up on snow for MN and bought a pair of those "roller skis" to save my knees while I sweat off the last of my winter blubber. I could have probably assured a good snowfall by trading in my new XC skis on them but I am limited to paved roads on these and I prefer quiet backcountry trails. NOAH just released its' report for Nov-Jan and according to them the ENTIRE USA has set a all time record for warm temperatures this winter so far. That is warmest in the recorded history of the USA. GO USA-GO USA-GO USA-. OOPS I guess I been watching too much winter Olympics. Just out of curiosity I checked "down wind" in the UK and found that they have had the warmest winter since the 1600"s when THEY started keeping records. OH OH! Nuff said. Fireronin
02/22	Hi all, Has anyone received their official job offer from R5 USFS? I know the tentative offers are out, and supposedly a region meeting took place this week to iron out duplicate offers. Anyway take it easy. BLM FEO (awaiting a switch to USFS FEO in R5)
02/22	Pulaski, Talked with Gary P. He knows the whereabouts of several others. Catch me on the Chat-Line. Stu Sounds good... Chat at 7 tonight? Might turn into a party? Ab.
02/22	So Cal update: Its HOT and windy again today... 89 degrees, 18% RH, FM 7-8 and dropping after our brief and limited rain (as low as 3-5 at Southern stations) . Several IA fires in RRU, MVU, and CNF... Not much more to speak of so far... H-406 from up north is pre-positioned at Ramona... H-301 is on at Hemet.... helitanker available CWN at Apple Valley... Camp Pendleton Fire has a good header showing from here at 40 miles east...looks close to the Cleveland boundary.... but haven't heard much else... radio traffic says that it does have some potential.... Three engines and a BC just dispatched from the Trabuco District to assist the MCP... Pretty large column for winter..... Weather forecast for this week.. Winds continuing into Friday... a storm moving by to the north and inside Saturday... some cooling on the weekend followed by more Santa Ana's Sunday through Tuesday. No rain in the extended forecast for the next week. Total rain for my town in February... .17 inches ... the record is .16 ...... Total rain for the season July 01 to July 02 (to date) is 3.76 inches (all from normal Sept/Oct thunderstorms except a small storm in Dec.) ... about 1/3 of normal... the fourth driest year on record as I far as I can tell... SoCalCapt
02/21	Anyone-- They are all out of my usual boot grease. So does any one use Huberds boot grease? What do you think of it or should I stick to my obenauffs? R6FF
02/21	Honorable mouse... Try the law firm of Skinner, Fawcett & Mauk in Boise Idaho. <snip> I used them in the early 90's to get firefighter retirement and they know their business when it comes to taking on the Gov't. TWO TWO More info which I snipped was included in this post. Honorable Mouse, e-mail me if you want it. Ab.
02/21	Honorable Mouse, We had a MWFA (Minnesota) member with the same problem. He ended up going to an attorney in Boise that specialized in fire employment issues. There appear to be very few attorneys that are familiar with the issues/laws/procedures that are peculiar to AD employment. Bringing one up to speed is at the clients expense and so it usually pays to find one that is already "educated". Typically an attorney that is unfamiliar with a subject charges an initial meeting fee to cover the cost of doing the research to appear at least as knowledgeable as the prospective client on the subject. Those that are already versed on the other hand will usually provide a first meeting gratis...though you may have to bargain for that. I wish I could recall the firm in Boise that handled the case...or knew the outcome. All I can say is that after meeting with some very high price MN attorneys the other AD decided it was worth flying to Boise to meet with this one after a short phone conversation. This was a major financial decision and apparently the contrast was so great between the level of basic understanding that he felt he had no other choice. If I recall correctly he had to borrow to buy the ticket to get there so it was not a decision made lightly. I concur...if you take the Feds on in court get an attorney that has won a similar case before or you will be worse off than just letting it go and taking the hit. No "suit" is free. (pun intended) It is a sad fact that ADs get screwed if they are hurt on the job on a fairly regular basis. I don't think that this is intentional...more like neglect. It is just simpler that way. I hope this helps. Good luck Mouse. Dana
02/21	From Firescribe, who says... wouldn't ya know... $1 Billion in Western Wildfire Prevention Funds Misdirected www.kgw.com/kgwnews/oregonwash_story.html?StoryID=37129 Jonathan Oppenheimer of Taxpayers for Common Sense, which tracks federal spending on national forest management: "When you start talking about money, it gets political, but dealing with wildfire shouldn't be political." Yeah, right. Maybe we should get this guy onto the issues of cost pool rakeoffs and lack of facilities. Firescribe
02/21	Powerpoints: Been working my fingers to the bone.....local Forester requested to see if I could put something together.....MAN..... S-390 class on Wildland Fire Behavior Calculations 4 units of Overheads.....converted to 28 megs of PowerPoint. Have about 6 or 8 slides left to redo. If anyone wants it when done...I need a CD disk and an address to where to sent them. Then they can do what ever they want from there. Feds already have S-234 on PP..was in Arkansas a couple of weeks ago and had the class. Working on getting my hands on one.. Don't have any information on S-211 yet. Hickman
02/21	Hi All, I need to go to LA for the next few days. Will be only my third trip there, other 2 were for Disneyland... Does anyone have any ideas for where I might go (not too far from the airport in a rental car) on Fri or Sat for fire enrichment -- fuel type, maybe some fire scars... or maybe could I go to San Dimas? Are they open on Sat? I know this is short notice... Maybe just take my binocs to check the fuels from my hotel room window, eh? Are Santa Anas predicted for the weekend? Any suggestions would be appreciated! Ab, will you forward replies? Thanks. Mellie
02/21	Hi All Re: Federal Workman’s Comp. I’m looking for legal council regarding federal workman’s comp. for an AD worker (Emergency Contract Faller) injured while working a wild land fire (Me). So far all but one attorney I’ve contacted only handles "state" workman’s comp. claims. The only attorney willing to discuss the matter would do so for a fee of $240.00 to talk to me for the first time. Any leads, names, address e-mail contact or phone numbers will be appreciated. Tnx Honorable Mouse
02/21	Hey BR, I am a Handcrew Captain in Northern Cal, and I know where you can find your info. On the FS Human Resources website, there is a link called Drug testing, and it has the procedures that the FS must follow. Basically, if Two "trained" Supervisors agree that an employee is using drugs, the person can be sent in for testing. It does not mention anything about testing entire crews, I think your Manager is covering up an important safety issue. I would go over his head to your Forest Aviation Officer and see what they have to say about this issue. The website address is http://fsweb.wo.fs.fed.us/hrm/. (Ab note: this is the FS intranet.) This site also has all of the Fed position descriptions for fire jobs, pay scales, and other interesting HR stuff. Good luck and keep us posted about the results. -MJ p.s. Brian, I told you to call Rob M. about Megram Fire areas for your research!
02/21	HSU Gang Isn't the non-FS land involved in the Goat Fire owned by Fruit Growers or Sierra Pacific? Don't they have their own foresters you can speak with? You may have already tried them though, so this may not be much help. RxFire
02/21	Pulaski, Yeah...thank god for all the snow that just got dumped on MN! I guess we can all relax now! I got out my cross country skis and pretended to have a good run across the muddy yard. That didn't even get much of an adrenaline rush going. I, for one, am getting too old for that without a bit of smoke in the air to help. Old smokechasers version of viagra. Seriously though, such a small portion of MN "got plastered" with any snow at all in that last pass I don't think I'll revise my early fire season "prediction" quite yet. But who knows we may get some more precip yet come March. Hey Pulaski, you have to admit this has been one of the driest, warmest winters in MN for what...40 years? Anyone noticin the dryness in the Dakotas or Wisconsin or does it stop at the Minnesota state line? Oh well, don't think I would snicker too much yet Pulaski. Save it for March when we usually get our heaviest snowfall. OOPS...March prediction is for temps not conducive to snow. Oh well again... We'll see. Fireronin Ab, don't we always seem to get into this predictin stuff around this time of year?
02/21	Brian @ Humboldt St: You might want to contact the fuels person on the Grindstone Dist. Mendocino NF. There is an individual with private lands within the forest who has undertaken an underburning & thinning p pine project there in cooperation with the forest and CDF. I dont think that area was affected by the Fork fire several years ago, but I think there was a smaller fire that burned into his p. burn area last year or so. Might not be exactly what you are looking for but it wouldnt hurt to check into it. Pulaski
02/21	Good morning AB, I have been reading through the months activity. Interesting chat. One thing that is bothering me is the Work Hard Play Hard attitude. We lost a fellow firefighter this last summer, played a little too hard while off duty and smacked a tree on the way back to the station after he tied one on off station. The days and weeks that followed this tragedy was unforgettable. From the morning we got the call from the EMT on scene, telling us what happen, to making all the notifications to the Managers, Supervisors, and Crew Members. The LE investigation is still ongoing, they issued citations to some of the individuals at the station for MIP, they were honest and up front about having been at parties held at the station, the individuals who were of age, and witnessed the younger kids drinking could still get tickets. The thing is we have a stressfull job, and we have always played hard. At some point if shit hits the fan, and you are hung over, will you be able to react? Will you be able to respond and help your crew members get out of a jam? Will you be able to save your own life? Or will you be the one leading the motorcade in the funeral procession in your shinny engine on the way to the cemetery? The grief and guilt that his little town went through this last summer was incredible. If we keep up with the attitude that it is ok, it will be. I was at the station going through a Critical Stress Debriefing with the crew members when OSP, pulled crew members out of the circle to issue citations. Not a good deal. My advise is, if you are going to tie one on, be responsible, and do not report to work if you are so hung over you are pueking. I do not want my life dependent upon you if we get in a jam. I will get off my soap box now. BE SAFE: dispatcher
02/20	Hi HSU guys. The person on the Six Rivers NF who knows the literature on shaded fuel breaks and the effects of thinning is Lucy S, our fuels and NFP specialist. Exceptional researcher... Ask her for leads. (The phone number for fuels will get you to her.) There was a shaded fuel break created and maintained for several years before the Megram Fire on the Six Rivers, Lower Trinity RD (burned Fall, 1999). Adjacent to the fuel break, the fire burned extremely hot at the highest level of burn severity; where ground and ladder fuels had been removed under the firs, it was a nice understory burn. The site - up near Grizzly Camp - is still under winter snow, but you should take a trip out there and check it out in the spring. Awesome demonstration of the benefits of a little management. I drove through the Goat Fire along Hwy 36 on the weekend before Thanksgiving, long after it was over, wanting to see what it looked like. It's interesting how close the fire came to the CDF station at Susanville. Must have been rather nerve wracking to be on the deck there with the fire as hot and large and loud as it was. Here's the link to the get in touch with the Chief of the Lassen-Modoc Unit. Perhaps he or his office can tell you which CDF Team was assigned to that fire and you can contact them and go from there with your inquiries. They must have a fuels planner there. I think they even had some photos in the lobby. As far as more information on the internet about the Goat Fire, there is none that I was able to find. (For fun, I tracked the fires of California, 2001 and created a CA firelinks page listing those I found with internet photos/info.) The fire was not even reported on the CDF incidents page. I think CDF was so busy scrambling to fight the fire they didn't have time to deal with the website. There must have been some FS crews on that fire... Some with cameras? One place you might scare up some CDFers who were on that fire is via the CDF forum. It's closed, but perhaps you can get a CDFer with access to post your question there and then send you any serious replies. Are any one of the Michael/Mikes or CDF-BC willing to ask? Jackson, do you know about Yellowstone NP? They used to have a good website for research. Is it up? Too bad Brooks Sibl*y retired! Good Luck Guys!!! Mellie Not quite on your topic, but for a persuasive read on trees, click HERE or go to Moore's main site. JG, thanks for sending me the links. Ammo...
02/20	Hello I am a lead on a helitack crew in region 4 . Last season I had a runin with several of my crew members who liked to do a little pharmaceutical research at work. This bothered me big time because of the safety issues involved with working around helicopters, and the fact that we are all supposed to be able to work in a drug free environment. I notified my immediate supervisor of the issue and he told me he would handle it. Long story short these guys were told to leave the drugs at home. On the very next dispatch several days later on the way to ID. We stopped in the middle of N.V. and overnighted. I told the crew to be at the trucks and ready to roll at 0700. Well 0700 rolls around and I am short one person, I checked the room, no luck. We waited one hour and still no show. I called the district and told them I had one crewmember AWOL and asked what to do. There reply was to find him and hurry up and get to I.D. and catch up with the helicopter, and let the manager deal with the situation. Twenty minutes later we find the individual walking down the main street clearly intoxicated with his bag of weed in one hand and his pipe in the other. I called the district again they said "Good you found him now get to I.D." Put the individual in the crew carrier and continued on. Upon arrival the manager stuck the guy in camp for the day with out pay. I asked why there was not any immediate action taken and the manager said he didn't want to make a mountain out of this incident. Upon return from the incident I talked with management about the issue and they said we couldn't afford to lose any people on the crew because we were already at the min. I called bull sh-- and told them it wouldn't be hard to detail some one into the position. I also asked them why this individual was not drug tested or terminated. They told me because he was off the clock there was nothing they could do and that if they send one person in for a drug test they have to send the whole crew. I said well what the hell is wrong with that. They basically, in not so many words, said that the district would lose too many good people if they drug tested everyone. So my Question is: has anyone else heard this rule about having to test the whole crew if one person is suspected of using. And since I made the issue known to management and nothing has been done, where do I go from here? BR
02/20	-Fire Guy in R-1, If you are talking about S-234, its your lucky day. I happen to be doing the same thing but am only doing unit 2 of S-234. Of course I will be glad to share when I'm done putting the finishing touches on it. -Hey Dana, Fireronin & NorMinn Firefighter...hows your early fire season looking now?? ...we just got plastered with 6+ inches of wet sloppy stuff and still a bit more to come and It looks like you guys got at least some of it too. You guys should know better than to let the adrenaline start flowing this early. (snicker) Adrenalin Junkie: Jim Smith & Sue Husari...wow, havent heard those names in a long while, not surprised that they are doing an excellent job. Quality individuals! Pulaski
02/20	Hello, my name is Brian and I am a senior at Humboldt State University in the Forestry Program. I am currently working on a senior project with three other seniors looking at the effects of thinning pre and post major fire event in Ponderosa Pine and mixed Connifier forests. Three of us work in the field of fire fighting, one with CDF and two of us with the USDA Forest Service. I am seeking information and pictures about the Goat fire which was over in Lassen County. This event is a prime example of our project though we have had some trouble obtaining information. If you could send me some information as where such materials may be found or other people to contact, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time, Sincerely, Brian, Eric, Ron, Nick Any photos or information, Readers? Ab.
02/20	hiya Abercrombie, well ive been trying to access the BLM fire pages for a couple of months now, and finally today.. i had success.. it looks like the pages are "mostly" up... anyway.. im a newbie looking for my first temp job in the R-6 area.. currently im finishing my last few days in the US AirForce in the Republic of Korea.. so its making the application process a nightmare.. but i think that im on the right track.. any info that you could pass a beginner would be of great help. thanks! SrA Tucker C. Forlines Hi Tucker. You're our first poster from Korea. But we've had people there reading the board for the last year or so. We'd suggest you go to the fire hire links at the top of the Job Announcements page and follow directions for BLM or FS or NPS. Ab.
02/20	I updated our Wildlandfire.com links page. We now have working links to the sit report in text and pdf formats. There are still some broken links. (Still can't reach NM or AK BLM. There's neither BIA Fire nor DOI BLM Fire and Aviation Mgmt. You still can't look up DOI employees.) Ab.
02/20	Hello again to all!!!!!!!!! I am in the process of coordinating the Firing Methods and Ignition Procedures Class and was wondering if there are any Presentations out there that would come in useful for the course. The PowerPoints are GREAT TOOLS. Fire Guy in R-1
02/19	Ab, a clarification: The Bills that Niedermeyer and Myself were talking about (Senate, S.1845 and the House, HR 2163. Presumptive Illness legislation) don't just talk about "death".. they also talk about disability benefits, retirement issues, and benefits to families...... It's the difference between a disability retirement or trying to ask for A/L donations to keep your family well, and up and going... And when the A/L runs out..... The outcome is grim... Here's the information on these bills that you requested: Status of Bills http://thomas.loc.gov/ type the bill # or key words Presumptive Disability fact Sheet from IAFF www.iaff.org/politics/us/content/images/fed%20presumptive%20FS.pdf Congressman Rodriguez Floor Statement www.iaff.org/politics/us/content/images/Rodriguez%20Statement.PDF House Co-Sponsors www.capwiz.com/iaff/issues/bills/?bill=69798&cs_party=all&cs_status=C&cs_state=ALL Senate Sponsor www.capwiz.com/iaff/issues/bills/?bill=83927&cs_party=all&cs_status=C&cs_state=ALL FWFSA-SoCal Thanks for following up. Ab.
02/19	I just checked NOAHs' forecast for march-may temp and precip. If I read them right the southwest is predicted to experience significantly warmer and dryer weather during that period. That must come as a surprise eh? www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov Minnesota is only predicted to experience warmer temps with average precip. for that period. But it looks like the prediction (FWIW) shows the northern pine forests as the most likely to have highest above avg. temps. Considering that there is little to no snow under the pines and they tend to "tinderize" fairly quickly (due to their "solar collector" effect when there is no albido in the upwind plains), we might have a "rip snorter" commin' our way this year. Too early to really predict though. March may come through with snowmakers yet. I knew I should not have bought those new x country skis last fall. Every time I do that we get bupkis for snow... and you can't wax for dirt. I hate runnin' and now I have ten pounds to burn off. It looks like I will have to run it off instead of ski it off. Maybe I should quick.. burn them as an appeasement to the precip gods....Naw. Fireronin
02/19	The Jobs Page, Series 0462, and 0455 are updated. Ab.
02/19	Ab, Tonight I was pleased to see several examples of former President Clinton's Executive Order 12564 being used. (Look in the 0462 and 0455 jobs updates). The Executive Order spells out a drug free Federal workplace and outlines the rules for implementing it. One particular example drove my former charge home.... the announcement R905-52B-02G stated that a Zone FMO is a position that is drug tested. (Does this Zone FMO GS-11 have to drive a class B vehicle in their PD or is it because of EO 12564?... or did this Forest classify the position incorrectly as safety sensitive?) I also found several other positions that stated the positions were being drug tested in accordance with EO 12564 (ALL DOI fire jobs). I don't know how it is in other Regions, but here (R-5 FS) the only drug testing that I know of occurs if you have a DOT requirement or your position is listed as safety sensitive (ie-LEO's). I have heard (but hasn't been confirmed).. that NFFE and the Partnership Council disapprove of across the board implementation of drug testing as part of a Drug Free Workplace. Isn't a safe workplace a goal of NFFE and all Federal employees? Does the NFFE and partnership council actually have the power to stall or overturn a Presidential Executive Order on behalf of a handful of Federal employees?... I had hoped that when the E.O. was signed it would make the entire Govt. a Drug Free Workplace. I understand some of their concerns but I have seen good employees come and go (fired), and some die because of drugs in the workplace. Thats my personal opinion, I welcome all others, especially from those in the Partnership Council or NFFE... SoCalCapt
02/19	"Federal Firefighters Fairness Act 0f 2001" In the Senate, S.1845 and the House, HR 2163. Presumptive Illness legislation has been passed in 38 states. IAFF is going to lobby the bills again in March. March is the Legislative Conference for IAFF and FWFSA will be there. We will be seeking support on the Hill for our "Portal to Portal, Hazard pay and Presumptive Illness" legislation. We hope to see the bills back on the floor in April. THEY SAID will be the First to Know when its time to phone a Congressional or Senate Representative. Niedermeyer For those who might not remember, this legislation would allow benefits to a wildland firefighter who has died from or has an illness related to hazards encountered during their firefighting career.... Check back to FWFSA SoCal's post on 02/10 for more info. Ab.
02/19	Re Ted Putnam permission to post his article, Fire Safety - Up in Smoke: ...I was following up and came across this - thought you might be interested. http://www.missoulian.com/specials/fires2001/ em
02/18	yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy, ok holy cow batman, NIFC's online. Firescribe
02/18	Does anyone know if transcripts of the talk by Sue Husari, the Deputy Director for Fire Management, will be available anywhere? It was excellent. Was it taped? Can it be transcribed? It would be a good addition to the documents here. I also really enjoyed some of the other presentations, including Jerry Hurley's. CONGRATULATIONS to Jim Smith (LPF), this year's recipient of the Cal Yarborough Award for the outstanding Division Chief. It was awarded by his peers and is well deserved. Recipients of the past few years include Don Studebaker (CNF, '01) and Jerry Hurley (PNF, '00). Adrenalin Junkie
02/18	Well, it looks like a lot of us are going to get a head start this year. NJ is dry very little snow to pack down the buildup and little rain. NJ fire season usually starts the end of March beginning of April but it seems mother nature forgot to look at the calendar. Fires are popping up left and right our observation towers are up with a little chill. Our fires are burning like a mid spring fire even at 25 degrees although a lot of warm days lately. I guess we will have to sit back and see what in store for 2002 but it sure looks like we will be busy. EC NJFFS
02/18	Ab, The I-00 Program you sent me will work great thanks. One more favor -- does anyone have the S-212 on PowerPoint? Can someone send in a copy? Thanks, FFSS in PA.
02/18	Ab, As far as I know the Mel Madness Schedule is still correct. ASAP is looking for applications that are into the office by the deadline stated. So Round 2 people (permanent or temp) should push for getting theirs into the office by March 1. Re the MEL Madness schedule: Check the permanent hiring process dates halfway down the sheet. You can ignore the first column (unless you're doing the hiring). Second column says the deadline for apps being in the office. That's important. Third column tells when the roster goes out to the forests. Fourth tells when the forests tell ASAP who they hired. EXAMPLE: Round 1 says "ASAP creates roster by 02/01". [Then the forests check certs and inquire regarding interest. Forests choose who they want and meet with other forests to trade and decide who gets whom when more than one forest wants a person. That happens very soon.] Forests then make the offers and send in names of people: "Acceptance to ASAP by 03/08". Simultaneously the Round 2 process has begun... Please correct me if you know better. You want-to-be temps, students looking for summer jobs, etc -- just keep applying and letting forests where you want to work know you're interested. Hiring for those jobs will probably go on for quite a while. Mellie
02/18	NorMinn Firefighter, I did see quite a few seasonal and "emergency" firefighters getting advanced training at the academy this year. Most had been requesting this training from the DNR for years and been denied it. The feeling was that since the MN DNR is not competitive economically with the vast majority of other fire employers, they were denying their "seasonals" the advanced training so they could not be carded for better paying positions elsewhere and would to some extent be trapped into working at the DNR's pleasure. Of course when the DNR needed to red card these otherwise very experienced firefighters to run state engines on western fires, the required red card qualifications were hastily added to that year's red card regardless of the fact that they may not have attended the required classes or completed a task book. These qualifications mysteriously would not show up on next year's red cards, but when needed again they would miraculously appear on a red card if the DNR ran low on "legitimate" crews for equipment they wanted to sent to out of state fires. It was once explained to me as a purely economic decision... since without qualified crew the equipment could not be sent and the income not realized by the DNR. Oh yeah...they also charged over three times what they paid for each firefighter. It really pissed off a lot of firefighters and should have pissed off the federal agencies that were getting crews that may have not been fully qualified, let alone properly carded. The agencies did nothing as far as I could see even though it presented an obvious safety issue and was somewhat fraudulent... economically speaking. The firefighters, on the other hand, helped take the training opportunities out of the control of the DNR and created a plethora of new classes and training opportunities. It appears that these new classes were created at a fraction of the cost at which the DNR had been previously paying as many of this year's academy attendees were full time DNR employees whose costs were being covered by the DNR. Hmmmm....... There were even a few seasonals and emergency firefighters that got the DNR to cover their tuition, though they were planning on accepting jobs elsewhere. I don't suppose they shared that bit of information with their supervisors. Only 34 trained firefighters are under contract to cover the entire state of MN for the DNR this year and I don't even see the DNR advertising for more. I hope federal firefighters are available when we need them cause we don't have anywhere near the level of staffing of experienced firefighters we will need when fire season gets "serious". Anyway, most of the MN "emergency and seasonal firefighters" that I talked to at the academy were not planning on sticking around MN. They needed the classes so they could either apply for the new federal positions or seek employment in other states that pay better and reportedly treat their firefighters with some respec...t and get their task books filled. Many MN DNR supervisors are loath to sign off on a MN seasonal's task book since they will afterward likely not be available. Until we started supplying members with task books, they were essentially unavailable to most. Many area offices told them "sorry no task books are available....we just can't get them.. sorry". This, of course, pissed off many firefighters who had the required classes but had been waiting for several years for a taskbook. The state of MN does not appear to have "mastered" the art of good employee relations. I do agree "NorMinn" that everything should be OK until the season gets serious. It looks to me, though, that MN may be screwed when it does, as the "reserves" of seasonals will simply not be there to supplement the small number of "full time" employees trained in fire suppression as in previous years. Hey.. do any of you firefighters that think they are not going to get in on a full time federal position want to come to MN? Seriously... let me know if you do cause I suspect that the DNR will be looking hard once they start looking and I would be more than happy to pass your names on to them. Traditionally they have been willing to pay out of state firefighters 2 or 3 times what they pay MN seasonals and that is very decent pay indeed. Minnesotans are usually pretty friendly too... I am just a bad example. And, like I have said before, without exception (OK...there is always one) the DNR employees I have worked alongside are among the nicest fire folk you will ever meet... it's just the Top Guys that don't seem to have any respect for firefighters or realize how much they depend on them. If you just fly in... save our bacon... and leave it should be a pretty pleasant experience for you. As for the disagreement over when fire season "begins": In my experience the southern areas of MN begin to have small fires (under 10 acres) as the snow melts and these small acreage fires slowly progress northward area by area. Then as the fuels dry out, we get larger and larger fires progressing from southern areas to northern areas over a period of about a month. Then we get a period when the southern areas are greening up and the northern forested areas are dangerously flammable as well as the grasslands and swamps of the central and northern areas. Then those swamps and grasslands start to green up and we all sigh a breath of relief, since all we have to worry about are those northern coniferous forests and we can, to some extent, concentrate our resources in the north a