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03/31	Hey Pulaski, I've been reading this talk about the Optimol mix for saw and pumps. We've been using it for many years in saws, pumps, generators, etc. and the stuff runs great! It's smokeless, it's a fuel stabilizer, and you mix it 100:1 in everything!,and it runs just fine! In fact, The Stihl company won't even void your warranty if you use it in brand new saws. I was reluctant to use it at first, and only used itr in old stuff, but the longer I used it, the more I liked it. Now it"s all we carry on my engine, with no more need for all of the different mixes.  It comes in different brand names, most being made by the same company. The brand I use is called " Opti-Plus" and We get it at Daves Small Engine in Weaverville, Ca. It comes in small bottles and gallon jugs.-good stuff! -MJ
03/31	Welcome to AZ, Sky!!!! There are a lot of opportunities in AZ in wildland fire...there are several forests in Az from the southern end to the northern end that hires engine folks, several good established hotshot crews and many other positions from look outs, prevention and dispatch. We have the BLM, USFS, NPS, BIA, AZ State Lands and several rural depts and contractors that hire fire fighters for wildland. Az offers hot deserts to high country timber and of course beautiful sunsets and sunrises. Az has big cities like PHX and Tucson as well as very small towns such as Nowhere AZ and Hope AZ. If you look at the ASAP hiring program you will be able to find out contacts for these various locations..give them a call now and get ready for next season... Well worn one PS..Can ya'all tell I am a bit biased about Az? Yep, AZ, right next to OZ, but twice as good! Yellow brick road? Can it take you to that Nowhere AZ place? HAW HAW. Ab.
03/31	Riley- The Indiana DNR offers all sorts of wildland training - I took classes last year on the last weekends in April, in Indianapolis. They have real good instructors, reasonable tuition, and can usually get you into the classes at the last minute. I know for a fact that they offer S-130/190, and I-100, as well as pack test you. I found their schedules through MATS (i think its linked somewhere on this site - a little help Ab?) Give them a call, they're very helpful, Jersey Boy Go to the links page under training. Ab.
03/31	Pulaski For the first 7 years of my career I worked on a district that used a product called Optimal. Same theory as "only one". We used it in Husky, Stihl and Homelite chainsaws, brushcutters and weedwhackers. We also used it in all our portable pumps; Hale, Homelite, Wajax-Pacific and Shindaiwa. All the equipment performed just fine with no malfunctions attributed to the gas mix. Personally I think switching over to a "one mix" product is the smart thing to do. I think it saves time, money and space. Optimal comes in one gallon plastic tubes that are easy to use and are very durable. Hope this info can help you out. Fred
03/30	Hi Ab, I know this will fall under a "Classifieds" Item but could you post it on "They Said". Its time-critical. This is a request for to anyone in North Zone Region 5, or to anyone else who can help. I am putting on a Wildland Refresher Course for my fire department and some other agency Red-Card qualified personnel. We are in a serious budget crunch where we cannot spend any money other than for essentials for day-to-day or emergency operations.  This is my first formal refresher class for a paid department and I do not have enough money to purchase what I need from NIFC Ordering. I've already spent close to $100.00 for videos and other training materials and props, and can't spend anymore. So here is what I need: I need around One Hundred (100) of the NWCG Initial Response Pocket Guides for 2001 labled NFES #1077 & PMS #461 (This is the new one with the "How to Refuse Risk topic in it). This is the yellow pocket guide that is being issued to all wildland firefighters and is used as a quick reference on the line in place of the red Fireline Handbook. If someone has at least 100 of these available I am willing to trade a Like-New Federal Signal 56" All-Right AeorDynic Lightbar in Red. (Photos  can be sent upon request). This is my own property I got in a trade  and its the only collateral I have, unless someone wants a large  number of my department t-shirts in trade.  If anyone can help please let me know. Thanks. MOC4546
03/30	Katy Fay,  If you got your application from Boise, then there should be a green package of papers with phone numbers to all the Forest and there Districts. You can look on that list and find the numbers you are looking for, just find the Forest and the District you are looking for if you know them.  Once you do that make some phone calls and talk to the Fire folks and tell them who you are and you are interested in a job. I can tell you the Los Padres has done their hiring for seasonals already, but don't give up hope there might be some people who won't make it.  Hope this helps you out and make those phone call's ASAP.  An-R5er
03/30	I am wondering if I can get some input on crews, opportunities, etc in Arizona. I am suddenly finding myself in the position of being a resident that way by next season and have never really researched Arizona before and am scrambling to find out as much as I can.  Any input is GREAT! Thanks! Skyeblue
03/30	The Jobs Page, Series 0462 and 0455 are updated. Ab.
03/30	I would like to take a minute to reply to Rileys comments about wildland vs structural..I may be a bit behind the power curve here on comments but past week and half events have put me out of touch with "They Said"...the SW is burning. First off, I have worked wildland fire since 1976 and when off season I have worked at structural depts from volunteer to paid and have had the opportunity to be a site Fire Chief for a major aircraft testing Co and am currently fulltime in wildland in the management arena.. I have worked my way up from a ground pounder/hose person to ICT3/structural fire ground command....with that said.. Mr Riley..we are all one big family of fire fighters made up from men and women across the nation..we have a bond very few professions share. The is no one branch of our fire operations that is more dangerous than the others..each specialty has it owns risks inherent to the job. Perhaps you may not realize the differences but they exist. You and I both take pride in the field we have chosen...perhaps rather than compare the fields let's take the time to learn more about the differences. I , for one and there are others , will be glad to assist you in learning about our chosen fields and to learn from you. With the proper training I would be glad to take you on a wildland fire. well worn one in the SW
03/30	Some info on communication. One thing that makes communicating on theysaid hard at times is that 70% of human communication is done without words through facial expression, gesture and timing. More is expressed through tone of voice. It's a back and forth. We also gain clues to meaning via history with the communicator and the context of the communication, from their age, gender, and experience, knowing their life circumstances, much of it based on prior interactions with them, usually face-to-face. A good deal of that is stripped away in communicating here especially with new people, those who post infrequently and those who are not so adept at writing. We don't have faces to go with monikers or initials. (Monikers are easier to remember than initials.) We usually don't have a history. So we are more likely to interpret what they write in in the context of our own experience and meaning. In the context of our own issues and hot buttons. We  react or respond from that place. Sometimes in the reaction we get off the issues and get personal. Well, Riley, and others lurking out there, we certainly can tell what some of the hot buttons are among wildland firefighters. These are important issues that have come up in reaction to your post, Riley. The passion expressed is real and one reason why I love the people in this community. They're passionate about their work. Also why I really appreciate this forum. One thing I like about theysaid is the leveling that occurs here. While anonymity has its drawbacks, it has its advantages, too. Status is not evident. We don't know who the ICs the DIVs the grunts are, unless they offer that info. We don't know gender or whether someone is state, fed, contractor, vollie, dispatcher, etc. What I like most is what my imagination does to people.  Except for Abercrombie, the theysaid-ers who I have met in person are never so tall, so young, so handsome or beautiful or buff or of the complexion (or gender?!) I imagined. They are infinitely more interesting. As for Ab, he's just as I pictured him! <smooch> Out of curiosity I hit the search and looked in the archives to see what Riley might have written before. Not much, in early March some questions about the job he thought he might be getting, asking how the system worked... A newbie for sure looking forward to his first wildland fire job, wondering about certs and housing, etc. (Fedfire, good job at figuring out what he/she might have been asking. I think you're right. I appreciate your contributions here, too, along with Old Fire Guy who always corrects me so nicely if Abercrombie doesn't first.) Riley, I don't think anyone replied to your first post asking about training and red carding, but when you are hired by the feds if you still want to be, you will be trained. Relax about finding that training in your area prior to hire. If you want to study ahead and have the computer power, download the S-130 and S-190 and I-100 power points and have a first go at the information. That's not really necessary though. Thanks Ab for the forum. Thanks folks for the passion. Ya'll are tops in my book! OK, this wouldn't be a Mellie message without a big ol' <hug><squeeze><chuckle> for all around. Later... Mellie
03/30	I have had a long time problem and worry that I have recently heard of a possible solution but would like to know if others have been using a similar project. In my world we have various portable pumps & chain saws that use different gas/oil mixes to operate. And I am always afraid that some unknowing individual will grab the wrong mix for what is needed. Recently I saw a product put out by Oregon called "Only One", 2-cycle engine oil. It claims to meet all 2 cycle engine needs in that you can use this one product for all your equipment using a mixed fuel with this product. Additionally I have talked to a logger that says he has used Husqvarna "XP-Premium" 2 stroke engine oil with a universal 50-1 mix is all his saws, brush cutters, weed whackers, ice auger etc at home for over a year with no problem. I have several brand new mark 3's sitting in the garage but am reluctant to try this in them and have them get fried the first time out. Does anyone have any experience with stuff like this? One last note to Riley: See, I told ya so. I kept my comments brief as I just needed to vent, especially cause it sounded like you are from near my neck of the woods. Structural and wildland suppression are both equally hard in my opinion and both require substantial knowledge and experience to operate successfully and safely. -enough said- Pulaksi
03/30	Hello, I applied in various locations for the seasonal wild land fire fighting. Is there a list of phone numbers of the places I could call to see if I am on their short lists? Thank you.  Katy Fay
03/30	For all the wildland FF's, I'm sorry how my last post came out!!! I really need to learn to write better than I do and I need to still learn how to think about how something might sound first before I speak!!! So again I am really sorry how that last statement came out. After I went back and re-read it a couple of times I can see how it could be misinterpreted and how much I sounded like a horses ass.  Fedfire said it how I was really trying to say it. My papers hadn't come from Boise and I was anxious about getting hired. I didn't know how the system worked. I just meant that the entry level training for wildland was shorter and I could then start as a probie on the line. I didn't mean that structural was harder than wildlands. I've done some of both and both are equally as hard in their own respect. I have been fighting fire long enough to know that I will never know all there is to know about fire, wildlands or structure. I just meant that with wildlands I know that I could be hired, go through the red card classes, and be able to perform on a crew right away to begin learning more on the job.  So again I never meant to have my post be interpreted the way it was. Next time, I'll try harder to say what I mean. I know how slow the feds are at hiring and shouldn't have expected any more from the system than I did. I should more than likely get hired by fire season 2005, with the way things are going right now. I still would like to ask if anyone out there knows how I can get red card certified, while living in the IL, WI and IN area. Riley
03/30	Lo Ab. Missed the page for a couple days. Reading through the posts I kept seeing the name "Riley" got to the offending post and found out why. Ouch Bet you didnt expect the responses. LOL Be Safe Later Eric PW
03/29	Another CDF BC I have a CDF Captains interview coming up, any words of wisdom or strategy you could pass along to one uninitiated in the CDF world. More wildland and structure I was not attacking wildland firefighters or defending structural firefighters, my point was that if you look at what the agencies require it is easy to see why some of the perceptions are out there. As it currently stands a seasonal federal wildland firefighter requires S130/190, I100 and possibly first aid, maybe 48 hours of training, an entry structural firefighter will receive at a minimum, a 6 week academy, medical first responder, hazardous materials operations and confined space rescue, easily 300 hours and that is just the beginning of their training. Wildland is often perceived as "easier" and if you look at the job requirements as put forth by the respective agencies it is easy to see why. Currently the USFS and BLM are formed largely around seasonal (temps and perms) and part time employees (AD and contractors) compare this to structure departments, who place the investment into hiring and maintaining their people, even volunteer departments spend considerable time recruiting and developing all their personnel not just a selected few. Even volunteer departments generally have higher requirements than paid wildland departments. Again I'm not saying wildland is easier, I'm just pointing out why it might appear this way to the uninitiated. Some of the comments made by those on this board show their ignorance as well, invitations to structure firefighters to hike the line with hotshots? How about loading up some hotshots in full structure gear, 150-200 feet of 1 3/4" double jacket hose (high rise pack), perhaps a spare SCBA bottle or two and sending them to work a fire on the 40th floor of a high rise, remember no elevators. Lets try and be constructive here, not start spouting stuff as stupid as the first comment. Both structure and wildland are extremely difficult to master and strenuous activities. "While hiring prerequisites may be light, some people have the drive to be all that they can be. So if you are looking at green pants, they might as well be blue. You never know the skill levels of who you are talking to on the line." That is exactly my point, I know from experience that many Federal Wildland firefighters have these skills, I did myself but they are not required by the agency and in my experience they are not supported by the agency. Often if you use them you are on your own. You don't hear "we don't do that or its not our mission" from structural firefighters, they may grumble about some things but they accept everything is part of their job. Until the agencies start to follow that "be all you can be" attitude that some of their employees have, I don't see the respect for wildland coming up to the level of professionalism that structure departments get. I worked engines in 2 regions and held positions from GS3 newbie to engine foreman with the USFS. I am quite aware of the capabilities of some USFS employees. I also know the attitudes of others who wouldn't piss on a structure fire if it was full of women and orphans. Instead they'd be chanting "its not my job" while watching it burn. Before you accuse me of fabrication I know of that example minus the women and orphans, despite having copious amounts of water and two trained structural firefighters from a local volunteer fire department on his crew, this engine foreman took no action except to call dispatch to respond the local fire department, he just stood by watching the home owner try to save their house with a garden hose. Management fully supported that foremans decision. Unfortunately to "be all you can be" often means going someplace that will allow you to reach that goal, as it looks like you have done "County Paid Firefighter". As I said, the Federal Government is the training program of choice of many other agencies. So to avoid any misconception, I hold the USFS in the highest regard along with those of you willing to accept the new challenges facing you. Lets not turn this into an Us vs Them because somebody spoke before thinking. Anyone notice how few of the responses even made an attempt to be constructive and provide real insight into Riley's question and educate him/her instead of just reacting and spouting off. Fedfire Fedfire, good points, but now you're the one doing it. By throwing in the "women and orphans", you're muddying the waters and just asking for a reaction, not to the real issues but a personal gut level, emotional knee jerk. Is that what you really want, a reaction? Hey, EVERYONE, put down those dukes! Enough already. Ab sez so. Regarding misperceptions of professionalism, we need to change those. We need changes in the system, granted. As well as that, it's my opinion that Federal Fire Agencies are in need of some marketing types of efforts, too, like letting the local citizens and politicians know of additional resources that their tax dollars are buying. When a new resource arrives, call em up, tell them to come on down and see that new engine, meet the new crew that has had this and that training, view the new helo. Take some pictures. Let em put them in the paper. If we work with them and get the prevention guys to work with them, we'll get ahead. It helps the political types look like they're doing their jobs and it helps us. Ab.
03/29	Hey Ab,  I have been watching all these people complaining of Boise not rating them as anything higher than GS-3 or 4's. The C-Form lets you RATE YOURSELF. Your final rating is based on the experience that you yourself put on the form, and verified later. So if people aren't rating out, maybe they aren't doing a very good job explaining their qualifications.  Also, I get calls from people with no fire experience that say that they rated out as a GS-7 or GS-8 because of college courses and want to know why they aren't being hired for Captain level positions. Just because somebody qualifies at the minimum generic level for a GS-7 or 8, that doesn't mean that you meet the additional criteria for hiring at that level, which is prior wildland fire experience. At the GS-8 level people's lives are going to be at risk based on your decisions, and we need people with a certain level of training to ensure safety.  Everybody have a good season, ours is just about gearing up in Northern Ca! -MJ
03/29	hey anr5er Take it easy, The fire community is about brotherhood, no matter what company he is from. All firemen that have died, died trying. That is what counts. Stay focused and lose the ego. LATER..........LaPorte Rd SAW For the record, Ab thinks An R5-er was particularly restrained in his post. What counts, LaPorte Rd SAW, is not that "all firemen that died have died trying", but that those firefighters who LIVE and WORK in this wildland fire profession do their dam'dest to keep themselves and their crews alive! Those who are longtime posters here know we do not pigpile on structural firefighters or vollies or contractors or non-R5ers because of their membership in a group. We are a fire family here. We demonstrate that daily on this board.  But we do need to CORRECT the misperceptions of  people WHO DON'T GET IT.  To people who think a few weeks of wildland fire training is all it takes and are not willing to alter THEIR ATTITUDE when corrected, I say "WE CAN'T RISK YOU. WE DON'T WANT YOU."   My thanks to An R5er and to CAFSman and others for touching on points regarding the complexity of wildland fire and wildland firefighting. It's not surprising that some posts went beyond the issues and got a bit personal.  I hope Riley can see past the personal affronts and keep reading and writing here to learn more. Chat is a good way to learn some things without risking so much. Riley, if you can take all this and learn from it and begin the many years of training required to truly join the ranks of  wildland firefighter with the goal of acquiring WISDOM, I might have a beer with you. Until then, you drink alone.  Ab.
03/29	Hey Ab, I started off with the F.S. in Southern Cal. in 1988. I am a wildland firefighter to the bone. However, in response to Fedfire inquiring as to what the FS requires to be a wildland firefighter, I am not sure how to take it. Yes while I am a dirt monkey, I also have the following on my resume. While hiring prerequisites may be light, some people have the drive to be all that they can be. So if you are looking at green pants, they might as well be blue. You never know the skill levels of who you are talking to on the line. County Paid Firefighter CA State Structural Fire Academy Grad (3 mos full time academy) (ladders, ventilation, vehicle extraction, interior attack, hydraulic theory, pumping operations, water supply, ropes/knots, the whole nine yards) HAZMAT First Responder Operational Emergency Medical Technician CA State Fire Marshal Structural Firefighter 1, Firefighter 2 (2 years verifiable structural experience and training) Confined Space Rescue S-205 Wildland/Urban Interface S-230 Crew Supervisor (Ah forget the twenty or so S- classes) MY point is that there are many FS who are well rounded firefighters with more skills than cutting line. Rocky Mountain
03/29	Fires in Arizona. Link from Firescribe. Author is Judd Slivka. Wildfires break out in E. Ariz.  In NorCal in the deaths of Lars and Larry, the legal process against the alleged arsonists continues. Arson = Murder?
03/29	Boot lacing If you are talking about the lacing I think you are, you skip the first set of "hooks" and go to the second set, then you go back to the first set and then to the third set, after that you continue normally. It helps reduce "whites bite" without making the boots loose. Wildland vs Structure I've been a company officer in both structure and wildland departments, I don't agree that Wildland can be learned in a couple of weeks or that it is 10 times easier, I wouldn't agree that it is harder than structure either, they are each very different requiring their own skills. I would agree structure is more dangerous though, no wildland fire ever killed 300+ firefighters in one shot, not even back in the CCC days. Wildland may not "be in a box" but it does allow far more advantage in being able to pick your fight, an occupied structure doesn't, you've got to go with what you've got, right there where you're at. In defense of Riley, his statement is not an unusual attitude from structure folks. Most structure departments see nothing wrong with sending firefighters to a wildland fire without a Captain. Most wouldn't even consider doing that with a structure fire. Its a mind set wildland is "easier" since they usually get away with that attitude. Ignorance is bliss. Personally I think that attitude is part of why Wildland folks make less money and get less respect. Don't forget they were still clearing out bars to form crews in the 1950's while fully paid structure departments were very common by that time. It's 2002 and apparently hiring seasonal 18 year olds every year is still acceptable as are AD crews. Structure Departments are typically requiring EMT or Paramedic, an Academy (generally 240 hours), hazardous materials Operations to Specialist level, Confined space awareness and often a Class B drivers license. What are the Federal Wildland agencies requiring? 40 hours or so of training? As far as wildland firefighters doing structure, I recall several of you telling me to go join a structure department a few months back on that very same topic (BTW my move had little to do with those comments.) Many out there still don't believe wildland firefighters should be doing anything but wildland fire (from what I hear even CDF Schedule B runs into this). While Riley could have been more diplomatic about his/her question it is a valid one. I don't have a good answer for you Riley except to say the current system has many bugs, it is more concerned with GS grades and certs than individual characteristics or resumes but as I recall structure fire experience is creditable up to the GS5 level. If you are rating as only a GS4 it may be due to how you filled out your application .The form does not work well for those who are humble in their answers. Don't take this as an excuse to lie: what you put down will most likely be verified by potential supervisors before hire. I'd also lose the attitude, it won't take you very far. Many on engines would probably welcome someone with structure experience since that training is difficult to come by in Federal wildland agencies. However if you have little to no wildland experience you should expect to start at the entry firefighter level. I was a Lieutenant with a Volunteer Fire Dept, had wildland training / experience and a Fire Science Degree when I first started with the USFS and I still started as a GS3 when I got hired. Believe me it takes more than "a few weeks" to learn wildland, sure you learn the basics in 40 hours but I've been in fire for over 10 years (wildland and structure) and I am still learning and am far from knowing it all about either. Mellie's comments I agree with you Mellie, the money needs to go where it was intended, if Congress wanted it to be used in the WO they would have provided a budget for the WO. Facilities For those of you who think USFS facilities are all fine and dandy, you're lucky, I've seen condemned facilities "cleaned up" and reopened on some occasions, 3 to a room in barracks that are barely big enough to meet the specs for accommodating 1. There are some absolute S#$%holes out there that people are paying the USFS to live in which are unsafe, unsanitary and illegal. On the other hand the same could be said of the fire station I work out of too. It is a Federalwide problem not just the USFS. Until money starts being spent on the ground, Federal wildland and structural fire departments will continue to be the training programs of choice for agencies that choose to take care of their people. For those who said the WO skimming money out of the fire budget doesn't affect safety, they should think about that too. Less money reaching the ground means less training, personnel and equipment. Sure when you don't have all the resources you need you should adjust your tactics but it still impacts the safety of fire operations when you are short of resources. I haven't done a scientific study of the effect on fatality fires but quite a few come to mind that resource shortages were contributing factors even if only because the crews became fatigued faster. Also shortages of "professional" wildland resources generally get filled with contractors, inmates or local government agencies. While some of these are very good, few really can match the experience and quality of CDF Schedule B or Federal Wildland agency resources which also becomes a safety issue when these resources begin to work as the lead instead of supporting more experienced resources. This is not meant as an attack on contractors or local agencies, as I said some are very good but the quality overall is less consistent. Fedfire
03/29	RX Fire: In a nutshell, here is how the CDF pays their people... All Rank and File line personnel working conditions are covered in the Memorandum of Understanding (M.O.U) for Bargaining Unit 8. This public document can be found on line on the Department of Personnel Administration (DPA) web site. Look for bargaining units. In that MOU, under the "Hours of Work" section, there are descriptions for different shift patterns each classification works. Firefighter 1 (seasonals) are covered and handled differently than Fire Apparatus Engineers and Fire Captains. These latter groups are considered "Fire Protection Employees". I believe the section is 8.02. Overtime is paid after the scheduled hours of work are met based on a 56 hour work week (FLSA). CDF in 1985 entered into a "half time" agreement with the state for hours between 56 and the CDF schedule. In the case of a Fire Captain-Range A (station), this is 19 hours per week because they work a 72 hour shift. So, you divide the monthly salary by 4.33 to get the weekly salary, then divide that by 72 to get an hourly wage, then cut that figure in half to get the "half time." Multiply that figure by 76 (19x4) and that equals what is called the "planned" OT. "Unplanned" on the other hand, is all hours in excess of the scheduled hours (regular days off) and is computed by multiplying the hourly rate (determined the same way as above) by 1.5. You'll find the hour rate pretty low because of the amount of hours in the work week (72) compared to other FD organizations. You should know though that CDF Firefighters (union) negotiated a long term contract to eliminate the half time provision in favor of true time and a half. Those of you competing on the open CDF Fire Captain Exam would be well advised to take a position with CDF no matter the location, as this change will significantly increase compensation (some estimates are 37%) by 2006. CDF Seasonals are different. We can discuss that separately if you like next time. Another CDF BC
03/29	Hi to all, I need some help from some of the CDF Firefighters out there. I have been trying to get copies of the CDF Green Sheets, which are the summaries that go out to all CDF Fire Stations after an investigation is done where firefighters have been injured due to wildland fire activities. I have contacted a couple of Ranger Units in Northern California and have been told "You need to submit a written request through CDF Law Enforcement, wait two to four weeks for a reply, and give the specific time, location, who was involved, and what agency was involved." The problem is, I can't give that because I don't know all the specifics. I need some documentation on smaller near-miss incidents for a wildland firefighter refresher course. There was a time when these reports were available to all firefighters to access to improve firefighter safety. Suddenly they have become a closely guarded secret. If anyone can help, I am looking for Green Sheet Incident Reports for the 2000 & 2001 Fire Seasons. For the fires I know about, I want the reports for the Concow, Poe, and 70 Fires, but would like to get the reports for the last two years for the ones I don't know about. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. MOC4546 (moc4546@cncnet.com)
03/29	Riley, If you think structure firefighting is harder or more complex than fighting wildfires, then obviously you have never fought wildfires before. I invite you to come to California or anywhere in the West just to observe fire behavior and hike our lines. Terrain is steep. It's hot. The work is very hard. The fire, often unpredictable. It behaves differently due to many factors that vary daily and seasonally with terrain, slope, aspect, vegetation type and weather. Not something you can be trained for "in a matter of weeks". If you worked on one of our Hotshot Crews or on any Hotshot Crew in the nation, you would see what hard work is all about. I would love to see how long you would last doing a 36 hour shift cutting fireline, or if you were to coyote out on the line for a week straight. Do you honestly think doing a surround and drowned is harder than that or the fire trickier, more complex? If so stick to what you're doing and let the MEN and WOMEN of the wildland community do the sometimes dangerous, back breaking work of saving the Forest. My guess is people like you will only last for about half the day before crying about how tired and hot you are and how you ran out of water. So go back to the luge position in your recliner at your station this summer and watch the National News when big fires are going on. You can tell your cronies how hard you're working. Don't forget to mention the big wildland firefighting job that got away. For the real Structure Firefighters out there, I do not mean to offend you, just giving someone a clue who spoke too quickly. An-R5er
03/28	Hey Ab, I've been meaning to get that leadership reading list that I mentioned to you, but it's been one thing and another and I only have a xerox copy, but give me a little time. Before it completely dies away, I'd like to address something Mellie said. She contended that low budgets compromised safety, and others (correctly) pointed out that you aren't supposed to put firefighters in unsafe situations which doesn't have much to do with the budget. But let's stretch our thinking a little bit farther than that - budget cuts do compromise the public's safety. Less money means fewer crews, less prevention, less hazard mitigation around communities, and larger fires just to name a few. These all pose a direct threat to the the people that use wildlands or live nearby. BLM is giving grants to communities for training, prevention, and equipment to rural and volunteer fire departments. The FS awards grants to communities for protection projects. If budget cuts trash those programs, things will be less safe. It's great to see the people here concerned about the safety of the firefighters and say that they can, and will, keep their firefighters safe even in the face of budget inadequacies. But let's not forget that the steps we take with fire preparedness, fuels treatment, education, detection, and crews and equipment and aircraft and everything provide the public with a margin of safety...and that costs money. Budget cuts _are_ a safety issue. BLM Bob Oh, and Riley? Was that a troll or what? You were kidding, right? Good one.
03/28	To Mr. Riley: In my humble opinion people like you are going to get others killed!!! I have been on both sides for many years. I hope there are not many of your type out there. I look forward to working with professional structure firefighters. I am sure they would not like you in their ranks and I sure as hell would not want you in mine until you wise up! Cody
03/28	To Riley: If you think it's a piece of cake, come and try to keep up. "And that's all I'm going to say about that" To Strider: Check www.Nicksboots.com they have the lacing pattern I think you're talking about. Onelick
03/28	Strider Your inexperience and ignorance may be playing a key role in you not receiving consideration for those positions. Take in the whole picture and learn a little more before you decide to babble about something you either have little or no experience in. Ab where is the firefighter to firefighter spring cleaning classifieds located at? R6FF We're working on them. Have a few already. Send in a submission, 30 words or less, fire-related... Here's the WLF Classifieds page-to-be and the FF Free information. Don't you all need to get rid of some of that junk/treasure cluttering your closet or garage? Here's the chance. Ab.
03/28	Strider's probably asking about the no-bite lacing, or 2-1-3 lacing, which is here: http://www.nicksboots.com/lacing.htm Works like a charm, too. k
03/28	Riley I have been a structure firefighter for many years with the NPS. I have a lot of confidence in the ability of structure firefighters everywhere and will continue to help them in anyway I can. I am also a wildland firefighter ( 22 seasons in suppression, including 7 on a premiere hotshot crew in an overhead position ). I have little respect for people who believe wildland firefighting is second to structure firefighting. Most of us are able to do both in the federal service, although our equipment and sometimes personnel may be limited just as any crew is. Get the facts straight, jacka**, before you spout off at the mouth. JO
03/28	Howdy Stider, Check out Nick's boots website (nicksboots.com) , they have the lacing pattern I think you're looking for illustrated there, lots of good tips on boot maintenance as well. SquadBoss1 P.S. Maybe Riley should give up and stay in structure, an individual who thinks such as he does will only hurt himself or others!!
03/28	There's a special kind of lacing pattern for boots that someone showed me last summer on the Star fire. It worked well for me, kept my boots laced up snug, but but I can't remember how to do it. Does anyone out there even know what I'm talking about? Boots were laced normally at the bottom, but toward the top you skipped some hooks and then went back to them in a pattern that cinched them down. Strider
03/28	CAFSman and Pulaski thanks for answering Riley before I did. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people are about this firefighting thing. Ditto with not wanting any Mr. or Ms.Rileys working around me or my crews until they get a clue. Backburnfs
03/28	To Mr. Riley: I was a Vol. Structure FF for 20yrs. It is nice to have the fire in a box in front of me and I figure that is where it will stay unless I go inside. When I took Wildland Forestry FF classes, I realized that I knew nothing. Forestry FF as far as I am concerned need to know a lot more about what affects fire on a large scale and how to be prepared for it, than we need in Structure. On structure fire, I get to ride to the fire, I don't have to walk like most of the WL FF have to do most of the time. It is nice to go on a structure fire and have all that water in the street, that you can waste. I wonder how I would get 5" supply line from a hydrant to a forest fire so I would have unlimited resources. It's nice to have that unlimited water supply most of the time. I wonder how Structure FF would feel if they had to shovel just dirt on that structure. When I was a Crew Boss a couple of times with a crew of Structure FF going on a Forestry fire, I had to watch my crew's every step, because they wanted to work like they had been trained and equipped. They had no idea why I was giving orders about doing some things that were different than they were trained in Structure. We were doing structure protection, and even that is totally different in Wildland firefighting than what I was trained to do in defense in Structure firefighting. I know I was glad to have a FED crew beside me so I could ask them questions on how I should do things, if I thought I was getting us in trouble. If I were one of these wildland Crew Bosses, with what has happened the last couple of years with the type of fires we have been having, I would want mostly Seasoned Wildland FF too. I still believe that Wildland FF have to know a lot more different things to survive and do their jobs than I have to know in Structure. Mother Nature doesn't wait for you to ask what to do. She doesn't tell you to go outside the structure and watch it burn down. Mother Nature will run you all the way out of the forest and burn your structure too. Wildland FF have to know wildland firefighting, structure firefighting, and some have to be EMTs. Another thing: now hazardous materials show up in wildlands and you don't know that they are there. And you have to worry about the environment and what the public will say. So many things to know in wildland firefighting. Enough from me. Wildland firefighters, I wish I could have been one of you, when I was younger. It was a lot of fun when I worked with you and I learned alot from you. I support you very much. Thanks. CAFSman Nicely put, CAFSman. Couldn't have said it better. Ab.
03/28	**if you think Im way out of line, you dont have to post this. But I need to vent.** Riley: Give ME a F'in break! If you really believe "Structural is ten times harder. Anyone can learn wild fires in a matter of weeks." I sure as hedoubletoothpicks dont want you on my wildland crew. However since it appears that you are somewhere along the WI/IL border I can understand how you can come to that conclusion. Being in southern WI does not have the conifer content like farther north and, at least here in WI, we have not seen a HARD fire season in 10 years; but things will return to more "normal", its just a matter of when. I suppose thats enough from me. Hope you have thick skin casue I am sure you are going to get raked over the coals for that comment. Good luck. Been doing both wildland and structural for the last 15 years...ok, wildland longer than that but if I tell ya I dont want everyone thinking Im an old geezer. Pulaski
03/28	Hi again - Sorry, Ab, I can't resist it anymore. Here is another handy link that I just had to send in. I know we are coming up on what looks for all practical purposes like a busy season, and most of these sites have some good stuff on them either anticipating what is to come or showing what's going on. I checked this site for all the links, and it seems to be the one with everything up to date, plus it's been updated to be more practical: www.nifc.gov/news/nicc.html Yes, everything you need to know about mobilization and what's going on linked off one site at the National Interagency Coordination Center (that's NICC, as opposed to NIFC). The government can be practical. Just thought it was time for a little refresher on where to find this stuff since this group has grown so much and this site is such a completely excellent place to get information. Also, some of the GACC sites have been slowly improving, and have some new stuff to check out. Well, be safe and be careful- -trouble Looks good. Someone needs to run a spell check on the page (Geographic not Gepgraphic), but otherwise mighty fine. Ab.
03/28	With all the discussion on Portal-to-Portal pay for the Feds, could one or some of the CDF folk give a breakdown of how their pay works in a 24 hour period? For example... a former CDF seasonal explained to me that they were paid a certain rate for the "normal duty hours" ( I believe it was 0600-1800hrs), a different rate from 1800-2400 hrs, and something else from 0001hrs - 0600hrs the next day. Also, that from 0001-0600 hrs, if the crew was out or responded even to the edge of the driveway before getting cancelled, they would get OT for the whole 6 hour time period (0001 - 0600hrs) ( this is part of the "guaranteed overtime"). This example from the Northern Region and during 1991. Thanks RxFire
03/28	Ab, Quick question? Why do most of the Crew Bosses, who ask for firefighters, need them to be," Seasoned Forestry Firefighters" only. Give me an F'in break. Structural is ten times harder. Anyone can learn wild fires in a matter of weeks. If all these crewboss's are hurting for man power so bad, why are they being so picky? Especially when it comes to engine crews. I've been on the panel (MPO) for the last 12 months, and have gone through two schools for MPO, and the FS and BLM only rated me as a GS-4 because I'm only POC. If you have any answers I'd be very grateful. And if you could hook me up with anyone you know who offers the Red Card Certs in WI or IL, I'd owe you at least a drink or two. Thanks Ab, Riley
03/28	Can you all tell me why ADs get sh*t on when it comes to getting training in VA? They call for training that you have to travel 200 mi. for, and get this you got to go during the day and here's the big the one -- you find out you have to stay sometimes up to 5 days. Why? cant you all find some dum ass to give this training in the evening? Or is this to much to ask? C15
03/27	Hi all- I just received info on two links relating to wildland & other firefighter safety that are good to check out - they relate safety information to recent incidents through the use of case studies. This looks like good information to use in safety briefings, refreshers, etc. for this season and to keep on file... Main site: Some NEW NIOSH Publications Related to Fire Fighting: www.cdc.gov/niosh/othpubs.html Fire Fighters Exposed to Electrical Hazards During Wildland Fire Operations: www.cdc.gov/niosh/hid15.html I know this is a wildfire forum, but I thought some of you might be interested in checking out the Natural Hazards Center at www.colorado.edu/hazards/ . Their Disaster Research newsletter has information on firefighter conferences, etc. sometimes, and they do have some information about local grant programs, etc. They have also done some research on events since Sept. 11. Their focus doesn't seem to be on operational incident management, but you can find some gems in their information sometimes. Wow, I can't get over how much this site has grown since I started following it almost 5 years ago. There is no way I can keep up with it these days, although I skim it often. Some day soon I swear I'll sit down and catch up. Take care and be safe out there- -trouble P.S. - Great job with the site, Ab - and good idea on fundraising. I know you put a lot of time into this, and your work certainly doesn't go unnoticed. Thanks again! Thanks, trouble. Check out the post on 3/20 on wildlandfire.com fundraising. If anyone in the community is interested, email us. We are contacting potential advertisers. Those who want in should get their requests in soon. Firefighters, time for a spring cleaning? List your fire-related items for sale in the free firefighter-to-firefighter classifieds section. Send in your ad. Read the directions: it must not be longer than 30 words. Ab.
03/26	The FWFSA Reps have returned from the 2002 IAFF Legislative Conference in Washington, D.C.. Overall the trip was a success. The FWFSA would like to thank all the letter writers out there for the time and effort: it paid off! Quite a few Senators and Congressmen knew about our issues and were expecting a visit thanks to those letters. Thanks again to all those that wrote and a special thanks to Mellie and AB for starting the whole thing off! To find out what went on visit www.fwfsa.org FWFSA
03/26	Has anyone heard the latest on the portal to portal pay? A question I'll throw out there. Talking on my Forest and now it might go regional about class A uniforms for Forest Service? Since R5 does have a Honor guard. All perm employees should have Class A's. mdg
03/26	Maggie, you must be joking, but in case you're not I could answer your question. First of all I don't consider my career all that dangerous, I qualify for all kinds of life insurance with no special policy restrictions or costs. I think electric company linemen or high rise window washers are in a lot more hazardous professions, though they may not agree. I have had a few close shaves in 20 + yrs of fighting wildland fires mostly while driving to incidents on the freeway so that is not much different that the close ones you have possibly experienced. Why do we choose such a dangerous mode of transportation as a society?? Go figure. Most firefighters I know do not believe they are risking their lives, they are just doing a job they get a lot of satisfaction out of and maybe help some people and make a little money to support their families in the process. Other close calls with death have been, being close to bored to death while mopping up or on standby. Just Another Fire Guy Maggie is gathering this information. She's a student at Ohio University. Ab.
03/26	Here's my 2 cents about the crew boss class. It should be an early or mid career skills "check-up". The FS should create a task book of real skills that crew bosses are expected to have and be able to use. Have high standards! Show slides or videos of fire behavior ask them what's going on and what they think is going to happen next. Show slides of clouds--"what kind of weather might this indicate..." Can they use a compass? Can the potential crew boss give a clear, succinct briefing? Make them do it and review what they did. If the student doesn't have the appropriate skills don't pass them! Have the guts to say "no, your communication skills aren't up to snuff, you need to practice more" Have real life exercises (like the MCS Fireline Leadership courses), such as responding to confusing radio traffic when you're confused, tired and dehydrated. The group exercises water down the whole experience. The natural leaders just become better leaders and the hesitant ones just hesitate more. It should almost all be individual effort so that individuals can practice making decisions, and dealing with the consequences of their own decisions, since that's how it is alot on fires. Of course, the need to communicate well with those around you is also important, but decisiveness is not a skill that comes easy to everyone, especially when it feels like you're in a fishbowl. The course should address more of the psychological and sociological factors that go on in crews. (There have been a few good issues brought up lately like the paper on crew cohesion etc...) What about the fact that on most crews conformity is the name of the game until something unsafe goes on, then crewmembers are suddenly supposed to be able to switch to the nonconforming part of their personality and bring it to the forefront and become the safety superstar!? It just doesn't happen. Not only do unsafe actions happen but unsafe whole situations--hours, days etc.. because all of our training is in the realm of "follow the leader" (chain of command) until you're not supposed to anymore, i.e. when you're in a drainage that you shouldn't be in. Gretchen
03/26	Some years ago I had a great visit to Vandenberg AFB and had the chance to tour the digs for the hotshot crew there. They not only have great quarters, they have one heckuva training center, and the place is so nice they could rent it out as overnight accommodations. Why? Not because they had a budget, or had the government paying their way -- because the crew supe was one very savvy guy, and he and his crew understood these things: work your butts off on your own quarters partner up with other outfits scrounge if you have to live there, fix it up I don't know if the same crew supe is still there, or whether you could contact him for info on what they did and how they did it, but if you can't round him up, refer back to the list above. If you're living in a slum it's your own danged fault. k.
03/26	To whom it may concern: I am a college student doing research on thanatology. I was wondering if you could share some stories of near-death experiences you've had and what it's like to be faced with death as a repercussion of your choice of career, why you put yourself in such danger, and what meaning death has for you. Just a short answer will suffice. Thank you for your time- Sincerely, Maggie Readers, any short answers for Maggie? Ab.
03/26	Facilities: Mollysboy, I would bet you have not been in any of the FS barracks (bunkhouses) lately and you probably don't even know how few there are. Safety IS an issue. They are in really poor condition and in one case I know of, an accident waiting to happen, that will probably result in a lawsuit when it does. Rats, rot, exposed wires that can scratch, loose thresholds. Sec of Defense Rumsfeld (sp?) when he was in Idaho said that the military govt housing was substandard and that is being addressed. I think the FS needs to do the same. I was in R4 last season, but had friends in R5 south area. They said it was the same there, when you could get housing. Two of them camped out all season in the backyard of one of the supts. when they were on forest because there was no place to live. I would also bet that no one at the forest level is willing to talk about this. If they do the crews will get cut back to match the facilities. I think this is a case where the rules from above filter own and impact safety altho not fire safety. Sign me Living in a slum during fire season.
03/26	From Firescribe: White House under pressure from Congress releases wildfire money Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020322.html
03/26	Mollysboy, my point was that 8 hours is not enough training for anyone especially any one who is running around in a hazardous environment without any overhead around like the supply drivers and a lot of other people. I said they "need to attend fire school" not what the cornball rules say they should have. We need to be accountable for the safety of everyone on a fire not just the line personnel. Those civilians at 30 mile could have just as easily been a couple of AD's from ground support delivering sack lunches. We ought to change the rules if they only need 8 hours of initial training. If we can't afford to train these people in the basics of fire behavior and weather along with how to use a shake-n-bake, then maybe we can put on some volunteer classes, I bet there would be a lot of takers, especially if we gave hiring preference to those who had a higher level of training. Backburnfs
03/26	For Mollysboy, My third hand info has it there was an entrapment on the Back Forty fire in Unicoi County that is under investigation. No other details. adftr
03/25	Random Thoughts First, for "Backburnfs": where does it say that bus drivers have to go through the Basic 32 hour Firefighter course? Always thought they (and lots of other AD-type drivers) only needed the 8 hour "Standards" course. Interested in your info source. Mellie - I really appreciate you passion for firefighter safety, but think you're really off base in tying firefighter safety so closely to implementing the National Fire Plan. There are lots of points to discuss: blaming the WO is "iffy" since they have to play by the rules that the Administration sets down (Yeah, I know: not right, but reality - - buck the "Busheys", and Mark Rey and his kind get a really serious Timber Beast in as Chief);. As for the safety of "all Americans living near Federal lands"......what about their responsibilities for their own safety?? As Jack Cohen from the Missoula Fire Lab has shown, the homes lost in Los Alamos were due, for the most part, because the residents "living near Federal lands" failed to do even the most basic fire prevention work on their own properties. Probably the same situation will surface in the Ruidosa, NM fires in the days and weeks ahead. How about individual accountability, even for private homeowners living in the Interface?? Facilities as a risk to fire fighter safety - - a far reach in my opinion: if it was really important, we could build military-style barracks, require balanced meals in a mess hall and a nightly bed check so everyone gets a good nite's sleep. "Quality of life"?? An individual call, and having someone dictate that is really contradictory to why most of us got into the forestry/wildfire business in the first place. The overhead assessments for the cost pools are an issue - no doubt about it! Needs Congressional direction. As for the "Benefitting Function" versus the "Primary Purpose" for treating fuels and conducting prescribed burns: Congress funds the many aspects of the USFS as they see fit - range, recreatioin, timber, wildlife, recreation, fire, etc. If they (our representatives - yours and mine) wanted habitat improvement and fuels reduction, they'd give the USFS the money and the targets to do it. No Range/ecosystem/etc dollars for burning, then Fire is the only function both wanting AND funded to do the job. Yeah, it takes alot of fire bucks that could be used other places, but it really is just a Fire project as the situation exists. My bottom line: no one - - - not nobody - - - should care about my safety as much as I do. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I'm funded at 50% or 150%: I owe it to myself and my loved ones to do the fire fighting job safely at all times. If the staffing/equipment/communications/leadership is inadequate to do the job at hand safely, I have the personal responsibility and accountablity to "just say NO!". Can't pass that on to the W.O. or anyone else!! That all said - keep the dialogue flowing on issues like safety and leadership. While we may not always agree on a subject, the converstaion keeps the grey matter working! Mollysboy
03/25	Anybody heard anything about an entrapment in Tennessee?? Mollysboy
03/25	Fallers, equipment operators, bus drivers and everyone else that gets anywhere near the fireline need to go through basic fire school and refresher every year after fire school. You and I know it ain't happening. Where is the accountability? Are we going to have to wait until some school bus driver gets seriously injured or killed waiting at the drop point for the crew who is sitting in their safety zone to figure out that we are not providing appropriate training to Emergency Hires (AD's). We sign up thousands of these folks every year in the heat of battle give them a set of nomex and a shelter and 5 min. of how to use the shelter and send them on their way to drop hose and pumps off at DP 50 or whereever. The lawyers will be having big times when this scenario plays out for real. On another subject, a professional timber cutter is a great resource to have around. I have had the honor to work with many excellent fallers over my career they have taught me and other firefighters how to handle some bad trees safely. On the other hand I have seen a guy with a saw get signed up as a faller and they couldn't pass the "A" cert on any unit. Usually they get removed from an incident soon after they pull the starter cord for the first time in front of a good falling boss, but not always. And if they get kicked off a fire for lack of skills can they not just find another fire to work on? I don't think there is any certification process for AD cutters, at least not that I know of. I have been falling hazard trees and snags since 1978 and I still have to get re-certified as a "C" faller every two years. Another self-certification fiasco. We are not logging big trees any more like we used to. Feller Bunchers are replacing human timber cutters. Where are we going to get the numbers of fallers needed to cut on west side timber fires in the future? When you get the opportunity to work around the real professional cutters get your saw team to work with them if you can. It will be a good ojt session if you get a faller who has the right attitude and teaching skills. You can tell the professionals because they are the ones who are willing to walk away from a tree that they don't feel safe cutting, they don't have anything to prove. Backburnfs
03/25	Mellie: Hold your hands out in front of you, fingers interlaced, thumbs pointing up. Now invert. You have just been shown the secret handshake for "milking the fire cash cow". OFG
03/25	Thanks for the clarification Old Fire Guy. You are right on how Safety should work. But the lack of FS accountability on cost pools and Primary Purpose Rules suck. Mellie
03/25	From Firescribe, a slew of Articles on SW Fire: Thinning forests aids fire policy 3/21 Driest winter since '98 -- as in 1898 3/20 Arizona drought worst in West 3/17 Put early clampdown on campfires, transients 3/19 Forest Service ready for fire fight 3/18 Immediate attention by USFS incident commander Jeff Riepe 3/21 Prevention key in early fire season 3/18 Experts say Coronado NF Oversite Fire was mostly 'a good burn' 3/23 Fires ravage Ruidoso area 3/24 Wind-whipped fires burn homes in New Mexico 3/24 Fires Force 1300 Evacuations in New Mexico - 30 homes burned 3/24 Bone-dry conditions made Ruidoso ripe for severe fires 3/24 A look at fire-prone conditions in New Mexico forests 3/24 Wildfire risk is `much above normal,' forecasters say 3/24 Drought Conditions Concern Forest Officials release Carson NF - Controlled burn reaches 450 acres 3/22 And lots more on the wildlandfire.com news page. Ab.
03/25	What is WO,A work order? I've Only fought fires for ten Seasons. And that's one term that I haven't heard of before. COYOTE
03/25	Mellie, Here's some info on the Fire Funding for AZ. It's less than last year. Fire Funding totals for Arizona national forests Gecko
03/25	Mellie: I appreciate what you have said about making sure the money Congress appropriates gets to the ground. As with any federal program, others are tempted to look to "fix" the shortages in their programs by tapping into other, better funded (recently fire) programs to take a greater share of the overhead or pool costs. I've heard the R9 of the FS has limited "pool" costs to no more that 20% of the total regional fire budget......although some forests are coming in below/above that amount. I do find myself in disagreement with your perspective that lack of 100% MEL funding, or siphoning of those funds places firefighters in danger. It should not, and here's why. The firefighting effort must always be designed to perform safely. If we have abundant $ and resources available, that will give us greater options on how to attack a fire. Absence of those resources should not and must not force us into a "make do" mind-think. It does not mean that we initiate a plan of attack with fewer resources than needed to do so safely. It does not mean that we must work crews additional shifts (well into exhaustion). If we are constrained in funding, or constrained in the use of a helicopter, dozer, retardant.....or whatever, we must not allow ourselves to compromise on a safe plan of attack. Our only acceptable recourse is to develop a plan that will ensure the safety of our personnel and the public, even though this may mean the loss of natural resources, public infrastructure, or private homes. Those losses, while regrettable, are acceptable. Unnecessary risk of life is not. Old Fire Guy
03/25	Ab, With each fire season, we face the inevitable fact that there will be injuries as well as fatalities as we do battle with our dragons. I try to read each fatality report in an attempt to glean at least a piece of useful information from the incident. Those folks have paid the ultimate price and they deserve our attention. So, I take "pieces" of an incident and try to find ways to improve the odds. After the Thirty Mile incident, I began to take a harder look at Shelter Deployment, mainly the mindset involved. We've all gone through the training... and the annual refreshers... and done the deployment again and again with the practice shelter. Most of the focus is being within the time constraints, and being securely inside. Last summer, taking a water break while humping up some switchbacks, I began asking some of the firefighters "if it hit the fan right now, with no other options, which precise spot would they choose to deploy?" It turned into a pretty good discussion, very thought provoking... and THAT was the point. "Drop there? You're gonna clear that spot a little first, right? Otherwise you'll be sucking all that ash you're laying in and, if you survive the burnover..." "Drop there? What happens when that snag burns through?" "Drop there? That stuff you'll be laying next to is gonna be burning awfully hot, What's your shelter good for?" I'm gonna keep pulling that one out of the hat because it gets people thinking, and considering. If we all start pulling things like that "out of the hat", even with different topics, maybe it will "click" and matter to someone having to make a hectic decision some day. Stay safe! "Kicks"
03/24	K, I am certain that people in the WO feel they support SAFETY and are fostering an environment of safety. However, WO decisions and priorities certainly impact firefighter safety on the ground as well as safety of the public on the interface. My short list: Failure to execute the budget for the National Fire Plan -- impacts firefighter safety and safety of all Americans living near federal lands. Failure of the budget occurs at the level of MEL funding and as a result of cost pool levies. Failure to find and designate funding for facilities for new firefighters -- potentially impacts their safety. Certainly impacts their quality of life. (I won't talk about this one now... But it is a safety issue.) OK... About the National Fire Plan. I am coming to the conclusion that the FS at the highest levels might not have the cojones to do what Congress has ordered. Instead they keep changing the rules. The Congress was very clear in mandating 100% of MEL to implement the NFP this year. Right now my research shows that this is how the MEL money stacks up: R6 60% MEL R1 68% MEL R7 68% MEL R4 70% MEL R5 is in the low 90s, I think. (If anyone knows the figures for the other regions, would you please fill me in?) Cost pools are moneys for administrative support costs including rent, utilities, office space, leases on leased buildings, line officer salaries (Forest Supervisor, Ranger, etc), OWCP. So, what's going on here? Well, I think the WO is gouging the fire budget to indirectly support other Forest Service functions. There is no evidence that money needed for administrative support per firefighter comes anywhere near the cost pools levied. What proportion of NFP money goes to cost pools? For every $2 that goes directly for the fire program on the forest, another $1 goes into the forest pot for administrative support. That's a 2:1 ratio out of a pot of money that Congress explicitly designated for fire!!! I don't think Congress had in mind that cost pools should get half of what fire gets. This is a large increase over previous years both in terms of proportion of the fire budget and in terms of the total amount of money the forests receive. Where's it going? We paying those line officers more? Hiring more administrators? Renting more office space? By the way, bunkhouses for firefighters aren't included in this. In addition, in all other businesses, you get a break when dealing in larger volumes... Not in the FS. No efficiency here! (As a comparison, FS cost pools are getting 33%; on scientific grant applications you can only designate a max of 12% of your total budget to go to these kinds of administrative costs. Dontcha think the Republicans who hate top-heavy bureaucracies are gonna love looking at my figures?) But that's not all: there's the double whammy. The WO rakes off even more money by changing the financial rules for paying the bills. This is gutting the fuels program, which is a critical preventative part of the National Fire Plan. For those who don't know, in the past there was something called the Benefiting Proportions Principal. Under it, the cost of a Rx burn was apportioned among the forest functions that benefited from it; for example, 50% was charged to fire, 25% to wildlife, and 25% went on botany's tab (for noxious weeds). Now that fire has a funded Congressional mandate, the WO says we're to use, the Primary Purpose Rules. No more apportioning. Under these rules, if it can be said that the primary purpose of the Rx burn is fire hazard reduction, fire has to pay it all! Sounds like they're rewriting the rules so fire is made to pay the way of all of the other functions of the Forest Service. I think the message from Congress is clear: Get the money to FIRE for the NFP. Get the job done. The Forest Service WO has a resistance to that clarity. Those at the top keep reinterpreting what they don't want to hear. I'd like to think the FS WO has the wear-with-all to move money to fire that has been taken out so we can accomplish what has to happen to meet Congress' mandate. If they don't, I think they need to get real with the Congress, with the public and with FS employees about what can really be accomplished SAFELY. In this day of terrorist threat, I also think it wise if wildland firefighters are ready to help out in whatever capacity we are called to serve. Readiness to accomplish the NFP in terms of workforce, equipment, training and living facilities puts us closer to being ready to serve our country in other ways if the need arises. Mellie David, the rancher/business owner from New Mexico, could we get in touch?
03/24	r-6 crews are wondering if dispatches to nm are in the works. heard lot of rumors flying. like to hear something concrete. anybody got info to help? jtb
03/24	RE: "cutter"topic "..should a faller have basic ff training? Pass the WCT? Wear nomex? Carry a shelter?" Without a doubt YES!! (with a possible exception to the entire basic ff training series.) I would ask the same questions about contract dozer operators. What is normally done with those folks? (I asked this a while ago and didnt get a peep back). I vaguely remember in florida in '98 hearing about (this is second hand and I didnt see it myself) non-fire trained folks jumping on dozers. Granted most contract dozer operators are not doing initial attack and they are supposed to have a dozer boss with them, but that doesn't happen all the time. Does anyone spend any training time with these folks (contract fallers and dozer operators) to get them on the same page? Pulaski
03/24	Just got off the phone with our dispatch. Word is NM has four different fires burning at this time and mass ordering is coming down the pipe. I guess the largest is 8,000 acres and has burned 32 homes already. At this time I would say fire season is upon us, for those of you getting ordered up, please be safe and keep your head up. Be careful everyone. R-5er One link to a www.cnn.com -- NM fire story. More stories on the news page, link at the top of the page. Ab.
03/24	Ab, Lots of discussion of 30 mile lately. We have read the reports. Lots of accusations on "They Said," some very serious. Speculation on what the crew/crew boss should have/or did not do. What we have not heard, other than in the report, is what happened from the surviving crew members. Why did he or she do what they did? What was their perception of the fire and how it was behaving -- or not? Just how tired were they? How fast did the column collapse and envelope them? How much time did they have to deploy?....... I, like many others have lots of questions I would like to ask, to help me better understand. I assume that they are most likely not "talking" under direction from an attorney or FS Management, until all the issues are address and OSHA and the WO accept the final report and mitigation measures. WP
03/24	Stu and all- I'm sorry I should have been more specific. I want to know what fireguys think of contract cutters (generally fallers on timber fires)? And what everyone views as a professional operator within the fire agencies? Is it someone who is just kick-ass aggressive? Someone that takes in account the consideration of others? Is it being a "C" faller? When fireguys and gals hit the line with saws, no matter the vegetation type, is it always with professionalism? Do you feel there are enough examples of pro cuttin' out there? I don't . The awareness of this subject doesn't seem to come up enough. Training and videos are great but are no means a substitute for experience. Day in day out....cuttin'. Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. As for me, I'm from N. California. I cut timber professionally for helicopter loggers and contract my services as an emergency wildland firefighter. Wildland is where my career started nine years ago. I have seen alot of cuttin' both on fires and loggin' and I have this to say......there is no room for egos when runnin' that saw. Be careful and observe, yourself, others and your surrounding environment. Stay Sharp, LaPorte rd. Saw
03/24	LaPorte RD asks what makes a "cutter"? Good question, one still being debated. Within the FS one must differentiate between a "sawyer" and a "faller"....... the former cutting brush or downed timber, and the latter cutting standing (live/dead/burning) trees. What's the opinion out there? Are they separate jobs? Differing standards? If we hire a contract faller, should that "firefighter" have basic ff training? Pass the WCT? Wear nomex? Carry a shelter? Old Fire Guy
03/24	Hello All, After reading Enuffsaid posting dated 03/23, I promptly copied (hope thats'O.K) and passed it out to each and every Crew member in our "food for thought" section of our newsletter (with appropRiate credits, of course). I think Enuffsaid hit it right on the head, and I have'nt heard or read better advice in a long while. Perhaps more readers will take this advice and share it as well! Be careful & safe out there!!! Squad Boss1 Right on. He does have a wildland firefighter's turn of phrase... and as always, cuts to the essential... Ab.
03/24	LaPorte Rd Saw, When you say "cutters" are you talking about brush or timber? (Out of curiosity, are you from Indiana, California or Texas?) Stu
03/24	Article about Krs from the Lexington Herald-Leader by Andy Mead: Finding a new way of life Another one by Andy Mead about the arson fires in KY. Region has a history of setting fires Firescribe
03/24	Re: S-230, Mr. Fiorito, when working on the rewrite of S-230 please do not forget that the course is titled "Single Resource Boss" not "Twenty Person Crew Boss." The material in the course pertains to all who could supervise different types of single resources on an incident. Sometimes we forget that in the Resource Boss taskbook, one does not have to supervise a crew of twenty to complete the TB. A crew can number from 2 to 20. Too many times I have been asked "how am I going to complete the TB" when we (state agency) do not have twenty person crews like the feds. DM, In hope of not sounding pissy to your response to my previous posts, needless to say, I disagree with some of your statements. Specifically "Selecting one of the worst possible places to wait it out." My question to you is; would you of taken the crew down river through the crowing fire that blocked the road? Or, would you of taken the crew up river where the timber and brush was thicker and the canyon (dead end) was much narrower? Would you of disregarded the advice of "air attack" who was overhead informing you that the spot looked good, talas with no vegetation on one side and the river on the other side? What would you have done? To often I hear "what the problem is and who is to blame". I do not hear solutions often enough from the people doing the complaining. Solving problems is part of leadership, standing back and laying blame and pointing fingers is counter productive, leads to hate and discontent (low moral). If any one wants to move up in the fire organization, remember the higher you go -- the tougher the decisions get. It is called accountability. It is easy to be one of crew and pitch crap from the ranks, it is not so easy to be up front. I remember years ago, a young engine leader got his first assignment as Crew Boss on a relativity small fire and was running his legs off. After the fire was over, he said to me in amazement, "The job is a hell of lot harder than I thought, I thought all a crew boss did was ride around in the truck and talk on the radio, you got to be thinking all the time." My response to him was "DUH." Enough for now, thanks for the forum. West P.
03/23	R5er-- Your rumor is correct about R3 forests asking for fire severity money. I think just about all of them asked for it to use one way or another. The A-S and Coronado started looking at doing this as far back as early Feb. I think the Tonto did, as well. One of the Az. forests is using some of that money to create a 10-person IA handcrew out of some of its 'shot crew overhead and senior crewmen. And for those of you who didn't see the news ... a human-caused fire that started in grass north of Ruidoso, N.M., has burned 32 homes down as of Sat. nite. It's called the Kokopelli Fire. Blame it on the gusts that reached up to 60 MPH and shut down the airshow a few times. The fire has spread into thick, snarled PPine thickets. Five Type 1 crews, 2 Type 2 crews ordered along with six Type 6 engines; not sure if the orders were all filled. Bateman's Type 1 IMT was mobilized Saturday afternoon. Conditions out here are pretty much like '96. In fact, the live fuel moistures throughout Az. are actually lower than they were then. So are the 1,000-hour fuels. There seems to be a real fear out here that two large fires at the same time might tax the nation's still-mobilizing fire resources Be safe out there, folks. The Quill.
03/23	Hi Ab, On the leadership issue, April 7th (here in California, check your local listings) on the A&E channel there will be a movie about Ernest Shackleton and His ship the "Endurance". If you have been through the fireline leadership class you will know who/what I am talking about. He led an expedition to Antarctica and was stranded for 2 years on the ice, finally being rescued. All without losing a single person, though coming very close. This is an excellent example of quality leadership, check it out. Sting
03/23	Hello, I think the topics posted here are great, this is the necessary communication needed to forward the fire industry. I am looking for input from the community on how they view professional cutters on fires? From the timber industry or within their own agencies, what makes a professional cutter, anyone? LaPorte Rd Saw
03/23	NorCalTom asked for clarification on a Dana Post about "top management" and safety concerns. I'll second that. Dana also wrote about "the misplaced priorities of the WO which make safety a lower priority than budget concerns." Now I rarely get excited anymore about such stuff, but I believe I'll make an exception on that one. Dana, which priorities exactly are you slammin' here, and who or what exactly in the WO makes you think that? That's a pretty serious charge to level. k.
03/23	Dana, I agree with some of what you said. Fatigue is a major factor in accidents and people get pretty worn out after a couple of days without real sleep. It seems to me though, that the feds have really tightened up in the last few years on the issue of long shifts. It's rare to get much more than 14 hours except during the first couple of shifts on a larger fire. I don't necessarily think that a crewboss is derelict in his/her duty by working some long hours. Maybe I'm missing something here, but racking up overtime has always been the name of the game. From where I'm sitting, a good crew boss is always looking for ways to get the crew some hours. Taking a crew off shift to rest is good policy in a perfect world. However there are times when there are so many fires burning that resources become scarce. In that case there are no reinforcements available. (S**t happens) and initial attack becomes extended attack. If anybody can't pull a 15 hours shift, they're probably in the wrong line of work. ~2 cents worth~
03/23	Hey all: I know it's perhaps a bit premature, but I saw that NOVA is doing a show on fire this spring, according to their promo literature it seems it is going to revolve around the 2000 season, following the Arrowhead IHC around. The show is set to air on 7 May, and the website will be up around 30 April at: www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fire/ -MR Please remind us closer to the date when it's gonna be shown. Thanks. Ab.
03/23	Dana, I appreciate your perspective and concern, but I think West Posting probably was referring to Fed Fire today, not Minnesota Fire overhead behavior from some time ago. West, please correct me if I'm wrong. And West, I agree with you from my perspective. MS, Brauneis's article contains a great deal of wisdom. I add my vote to teaching the 10 Fire Orders that way. We need a way for groundpounders and their crewboss to look at and emphasize the situational nature of the process -especially watching out for transitions. The Orders need to be a logical, practiced and automatic way of looking at engagement. A fire behavior course (revamp of 190) that involved some critical thinking about fire behavior with respect to engage/disengage of the fire would also be an improvement over the lists. (BTW, I'm pretty sure it's not Carl with a C, but Karl with a K.) Ab, thanks so much for this forum and the oversight you all provide. NorCal Tom Ab just corrected the spelling. Thanks.
03/23	Hello, When I was driving by Bishop yesterday, it was cloudy and windy real windy anyway it appears wildfire season has kicked off with a major fire along the Owens River near the Laws Railroad Museum. Could be the start of an interesting season. Later, Dave
03/23	I know no one asked for this, but this is my comment on what needs to change in S-130. Just want to throw out there again the short article done by Carl Brauneis reminding us of the ORIGINS of the 10 Standard Fire Orders and their intent. They were initially taught as "Rules of Engagement" and I think this approach is one we should teach, not the catchy list as they are currently presented. Ab, don't you already have this on the site somewhere? MS Yeah, had to use the search for that one. Here's the link. Original Intent Ten Orders. I'll put a link to it on the Site Map. Ab.
03/23	Just another fireguy, I have also worked till I dropped. Can that possibly be within the work/rest guidelines? I don't think that their intent is to say it 's OK to work for 40+ hours without rest as long as a firefighter gets to "catch up" on it eventually. From the studies I have seen and my own experience, after laboring 8 hours mental awareness is going downhill fast. At 15 hrs. the term 'situational awareness' becomes a joke. Any crew leader that allows his crew to work that long in a dangerous situation without "real rest" is derelict in duty. Any manager that allows a crew leader to work this long without providing "real rest" is derelict in duty. Any IC that allows anyone under him/her to go into or remain in a situation without adequate rest where clear thinking is the basis of safety is derelict in duty. Any WO level executive that allows those under him/her to exceed reasonable work/rest ratios is derelict in duty. If safety of ones employees is really the highest priority of those who employ us why are they not held responsible for this type of dereliction of duty? Is this another example of us being too macho for our own good? The widespread acceptance of fatigue on the fireground is an indictment of everyone employed by the fire suppression agencies in positions of power and an example of where the burden of "safety first" is NOT being shouldered. If a firefighter dies because someone did not have situational awareness after adequate rest the burden lies squarely on the shoulders of that firefighter. If a firefighter dies because they had been working for 15 hours and was too "dopey" from lack of real rest the burden lies squarely up the chain of command. Fatigue is not the culprit...it just points to who actually is. I agree that if the responsibility for firefighter injuries and deaths is placed on "fatigue" it is a whitewash. The responsibility of those who were derelict in their duty by allowing crews/leaders/ICs to become too tired to have adequate situational awareness must be addressed. To blame dead firefighters for not following the "10 & 18" when they were not capable of doing so is a cop out. Should we allow our employers, who are legally responsible for our safety, to place more burden on us for safety than they are willing to accept themselves? I find that unacceptable on a moral, ethical, and legal level. West Posting, Re:"if top management ever gets "wind" of a safety concern not being addressed"..."there will be hell to pay by the person who did not address the concern". From my experience this is simply not true. It should be...but sadly...is not. I do agree however with your assessment that "the problem is each and every one of us." This is especially true if we do no more to ensure our own safety...starting with requiring those above us to participate in the "safety program" more than they do. Simply saying "be more careful" by implementing more safety directives is ludicrous. The way I interpret the OSHA 30 mile report the problem is that although the fireground is a dangerous place by its' very nature, current practices make it more so UNNECESSARILY. I believe this is mainly due to negligence and fear of criticizing the misplaced priorities of the WO which make safety a lower priority than budget concerns. Dana
03/23	Hello Everyone-> I received a call from Andy Mead of the Lexington Herald-Leader today- He says the interview / story will be printed Sunday. I guess UK lost a game or something so now there's room. Anyway, go check it out- he read most of it to me over the phone, and it sounds like a cool story. Here's where to go: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/ 'Cource as soon as I get it I will mirror on krstofer.org. See ya on the hill someday, I hope- KRS Hey, KRS, as we say on our main wildlandfire.com page, "we're glad you found us, take yer boots off and 'take five'." Hopefully you'll be getting those boots ON & OFF regularly in the near future. Thanks for the tip on your story. We've enjoyed your journal. Ab.
03/23	Food for thought after 25 years in the wildland fire profession. Leadership is important, but always having a way out, knowing where it's at, when to use it, and protecting it at all times is even more important. ALWAYS HAVE A WAY OUT. ALWAYS GUARD and PROTECT YOUR ESCAPE ROUTE. Never out distance your escape route protection. Never commit to a foot race that has no options, No room for error. ALWAYS HAVE A WAY OUT- AND PROTECT IT. If you ever get thrown together into a crew of strangers, Strangers without trust, Strangers without knowledge, -Of each other and the boss, Get the mating dance done before you face the flames. Until either you are relieved or the boss is, The boss man/woman gives the orders. Until then help the boss do their job better. For good leaders are often made by the people who follow them. If your ego is greater than the sum of your fear, perhaps you should consider selling used cars instead of fighting fire. Dead heros might indeed have died brave, but in the end they are still dead. Cherish those times when everyone makes it to the chow line at the end of shift, Healthy and safe. Count you blessings and stop your bitching. Because this day could be your last, By nothing more ominous than a chance change in the wind. Become a good example to others and Others will follow. Mr. Enuf Said
03/23	Hello all, Been hearing rumors of R-3 getting severity money and ordering up crews and equipment to come out like in '96. Has anybody else heard this? An-R5er
03/23	I have a few comments about people trying to move up as fast as they can and who gets put in positions of leadership. From my own experience I have probably worked for or closely with 2 dozen or so "supervisors" (Crewboss and up) from different agencies, out of those I would say only 2 or 3 were good leaders. Many were good firefighters but few knew how to manage people to get the most from their crew and to do the most for their crew. A few were terrible leaders and the worst were also poor firefighters. I place myself someplace in the middle, I'm a competent firefighter but I'm still learning about being a leader. The worst part is I have seen little help from any agency as far as developing leaders. The only really useful instruction I have received came through experience and those few real leaders I've had the privilege to work with. As far as people seeking promotion too quickly, the seasonal nature of the wildland business makes this a matter of economics. Not many can really afford to spend more than a few seasons as a 1039, GS4, I think most of us would be happy to spend some more time in the back seat to watch a good leader at work. The truth is I have learned much more since taking higher level positions because so many "leaders" follow the mushroom principle (keep 'em in the dark and cover 'em in BS). I have taken most of my promotions out of necessity (if I don't go for it the one who gets it is will be even worse than me), I may have some room to improve but at least I will improve and know my limitations, many won't and don't. How many of you have seen people promoted despite their being incapable in the lower position because "they are a hard worker" or "have done their time", my personal favorite was "he has a family and needs the money". This was of a person who couldn't even grasp the basics needed to be a firefighter let alone to be an FEO. Thankfully in this last case, the error was seen and corrected before anybody got hurt. My comments on S230 Crewboss More time is needed and it should be used more efficiently. The class should be aimed at the target level, I found much time was wasted on things that should already be known when you enter the class. More time should be spent on developing a crew and managing the crew off an assignment as well as on. Also a little time should be used to cover the other "boss" classes (Engine boss, Dozer boss etc) just so the crewbosses have a better idea of what those jobs are all about. NWCG classes are primarily written for the Federal Wildland agencies, they should reflect this, we are not portal to portal. The class should not provide instruction as though we are. Spend some time dealing with ways to handle the fact your crew will be off shift at times instead of pretending that we have authority and responsibility for them 24/7, we don't....yet. Spend a lot more time on tactics: why do we wait until Strike team leader to provide a tactics class, that should come right along with S290, not wait until S336. By the time we get a tactics class, we don't need it (as offered anyway) because we've done it. Also get away from the group exercises. We generally don't get into little groups and brainstorm during initial attack, at least not successfully, yes a quick word or two to develop the plan but I've seen people try and debate what actions to take and watched the fire go hell bent for the next county when quick decisive action would have more effective and often safer. I find most of the group exercises become one or to "do'ers" one or two "also's" and the rest "followers" so this doesn't help anyone. Make the wall flowers come up and defend the plan they came up with; it just might help them develop some confidence. Finally don't write the class down to the lowest common denominator as it currently is. Not everyone should be a crewboss. When I took EMT you had to get 80% to pass with a C, nothing less passed, the dean of instruction questioned the instructor on the high failure rates. The instructor's response was he would send all the C and D EMT 's to the deans family in an emergency. That was the end of the discussion the Dean then understood why there was a high failure rate, so do you want the C and D crewbosses running your kid's crew? I don't. One final comment since I've got email again Portal to Portal, many seem to think such a thing will never pass, I heard much the same about the 0081 Firefighters pay reform that passed in 1998. This was a major increase in pay for those working a 72 work week. Just as in portal to portal, the agencies fought against it as being too expensive and it only passed due to the work of individuals, the IAFF and CPF. I left a GS5 0081 job for a GS5 0462 job with the USFS in 1998, I wound up making more with the USFS with a mediocre OT year. Now returning to a GS5 0081 job from a GS7 0462 job with the USFS I am making considerably more despite a good OT year with the USFS. The 1998 pay reform was much more expensive than the portal to portal will be and it passed because it was hard to argue that the current system wasn't unfair. Anyway Good luck to the FWFSA members in DC (actually I guess their on the way home now). Fedfire Fedfire, thanks very much for your great help in the letter writing campaign. It will be interesting to hear from FWFSA members when they get over jet lag. Ab.
03/23	Dear Jersey Boy, This is a challenge to the best qualified and most dedicated firefighters east and west of the Rocky Mountains. Go to this website www.fs.fed.us/fsjobs/fire-hire.html Follow the directions, access the permanent fire jobs -Send your applications into the Forest Service. Note that you would like to work on the Malheur National Forest at Burns, Oregon. Get your application in ASAP ( within the next week). This will be for round 3 career hiring in May. I am looking to possibly hire at least two assistant engine captains GS-5/6 and one engine captain GS-6/7. We have heard much complaining about the difficulty of getting a permanent job. Meanwhile I am having a hard time trying to hire firefighters with very limited numbers of applicants on hiring certificates. So now is your chance. I look forward to seeing some good applications on the next round. Mike Benefield Fire Operations Specialist/ Unit Aviation Officer Burns Interagency Fire Zone (541) 573-4330.
03/23	The other night, I was in chat and was visiting with Mellie about seeing where some of the leaders of the IMS teams from the Wildland had met at the National Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, Md. http://www.usfa.fema.gov/wildfire/imt-meet.htm Now there's a discussion on 'They Said" about Leadership and the ways some of us build, develop, and struggle with leadership. Some mentioned week long classes, some special training, and some just are born with it... For those of you that are looking for training in leadership, you might look at the National Fire Academy program. "Ahhhh but that's for the sturctural dudes..." some of you may say. "Ahhh, but it's not....." I've been through the NFA classes dealing with Interpersonal Dynamics in Fire Service Organizations, Fire Service Communications, and the some of the other NFA programs dealing with Leadership: Strategies for Company, Personal, and Supervisory Success. Not to forget about classes like: Strategic Management of Change, Shaping the Future, Managing In A Changing Environment, and the Managing Company Tactical Operations (MCTO) classes dealing with Decision Making, Preparation, and Tactics. Granted, some may be geared to the Structural side of fire fighting, but Leaders all come from some where and they all are well versed in many skills. Sometimes, the name of the classes are a little deceiving, like Fire Service Communications. It's not "Learn'n how to talk on the radio", it deals with verbal, written, and body communications. Now some of the classes are 12 hours long and some are 2 weeks, but when you look at the cost.... you can't beat it.. If you attend the classes at the NFA, it will cost you a meal ticket...about $170 for two weeks. Transportation is provided by the Fed's. You will have some personal expenses, like time in the Pub, class pictures, class shirts, and maybe a vehicle rental if you want to see the sites around the area, but it is well worth it. You do have to fill out an application to get into the classes at Emmitsburg and you are limited to one trip per year. On some of the classes, they turn down as many at 30 applications for every one they accept. However, if you want to stoop so low as talk to some of the Structural Dudes in your state about training available, you might be able to pick some of the training up for as little as nothing... In my state, we have House Bill Classes, which are provided to firefighters at no cost...and these are some of the classes I've mentioned. Granted, we may not all be Leaders, but those which wish to be, can find the education. Sometimes, we may have to lead others along the way just to get them started.. Remember, "It always easier to Pull a Log Chain than it is to Push one." and they sometimes get hung up too. Hickman
03/22	About leadership... Some people seem to be born with the qualities, some aren't. So why take a chance? If you haven't got born leaders, build them. Training and mentoring people to develop leadership qualities is a prime responsibility of fire supervisors and managers. There are books and training courses on the subject, and every one of us can make an effort to take the time to develop leadership in ourselves and others through mentoring and example. BLM and the Forest Service (I believe) have been contracting with an outfit called Mission Centered Solutions (303 646-3700) to put on a one-week class called "Fireline Leadership." The class focuses on the leadership issues that people encounter is high-risk environments where stress and time pressures can affect leadership and result in loss of life. We have been putting engine crew overhead, hotshots, helitack, and jumpers through the training, and it is very well received and highly regarded by the participants. I'm making sure it's offered to everyone in my program. The course is also part of the curriculum in the Advanced Academy of the Apprenticeship Program. Not everyone goes to the JAC, but they can take the stand-alone course. It's a spendy thing - $20,000 for a maximum of 22 people - but I believe it's worth it. Look into it, and see if you can't get yourself and your people into it. BLM allows credit for S-301 to people that complete Fireline Leadership. I'm told that a leadership course for FMO types is available soon. Good books on leadership are available through sources like Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Check out "The Leadersip Moment" by Michael Unseem - he discusses the Mann Gulch disaster from a leadership standpoint. Everyone that reads this web site should be familiar with all the accident and incident reports ("lessons learned") that are available on the web and talk about them with people at work. Read human factors writings by about fires by Ted Putnam (Findings From the Wildland Firefighters Human Factors Workshop, and The Collapse of Decisionmaking and Organizational Structure on Storm King Mountain) and Karl Weick (The Collapse of Sensemaking in Organizations: The Mann Gulch Disaster