"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
May, 2002
| DATE |
|
| 05/31 |
Ab, Cheryl and Pyrodactyl,
Thanks so much! The books are in our system, and we'll have a look at
them.
-- Judy |
| 05/31 |
Rogue Rivers:
In answer to your question of me ("Are you ready for that"):
Yeah.
23 |
| 05/31 |
To Judy re. Oregon Novel -
How about 'Heckletooth 3' by David Shetzline? Published in 1969.
Loosely set in the Oakridge area of the Willamette NF. Out of print but I
got it recently with a search through Barnes and Noble's website. I first
read it years ago when I worked on the Willamette, long story about how
the book got lost/stolen on a big project fire. Anyhow it's a good read
for anyone who has ever fought fire, burned slash, hunted elk in the
Northwest.
Pyrodactyl |
| 05/31 |
Judy, about the Oregon fire book you're looking for
Did you check out Epitaph for the Giants on the FireBooks
page? I don't know when it was published, but it could be the one.
Cheryl |
| 05/31 |
From Firescribe, another good from-the-ground article from Judd Slivka
on the Bullock Fire in AZ:
www.arizonarepublic.com |
| 05/31 |
morning ab,
this was in the corner of my local squeal sheet this morning, not online
yet, so i copied it for you.
yakima, wash. eleven u.s. forest service employees should be disciplined
for their actions during the deadly thirty mile fire last summer in the
north cascades, a multiagency review team recommended thursday.
the proposed punishments range from losing their jobs with the forest
service, to being placed on leave without pay, to a letter of reprimand
in their personnel files.
the eleven employees have three weeks to review and respond to the
proposed punishments, and the response would then be taken into account
when a final decision is made.
a forest service investigation after the fire concluded that fire bosses
and managers broke basic safety rules of firefighting and disregarded
numerous warning signs of danger.
donna, dozer support |
| 05/31 |
OK:
here is the poop for R-6
2-1 rest period will BE the rule UNLESS there is specific reason to exceed
the 16 hr duty RULE AND DOCUMENTED and APPROVED by the IC
IT STARTS when you start your duty day STARTS ( 0900- fire at 1600 work
till 0200) YOU DONT COME TO WORK TILL - 8 1/2 hrs of rest..............
You are the answer to SAFETY..... IMMATERIAL OF HOW MANY HRS OF OF OVER
THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR
RR |
| 05/30 |
A hiring freeze is in effect for CDF. We had an exemption from this up
to now. From this point forward, unsure of how things will proceed. Have
heard everything from position cuts to individual exemptions for positions
that then can be filled. If you are on this list, you will be offered a
position with CDF eventually once this is all sorted out.
If your goal is to go CDF, don't be picky, and take the first offer you
get. As an open list candidate, you are limited to three waivers. After
that you are taken off the list. To limit offers in undesirable areas,
only go active for the units you would like to work in rather than being
active "statewide."
It's getting ugly, with the minimum wage ruling yesterday. I think it
is political posturing to get the legislature to do their jobs. In the
past, only vendors doing business with the state were hurt. Now with state
employees impacted, I predict a result much more quickly than before. We
will see.
"Another CDF BC" |
| 05/30 |
As this phase of the work at Ground Zero in New York City ends, we
invite all to take a moment and reflect on what we've lost - and what
we've gained - since September 11. A moment of silence...
Photos of Ground Zero, the Pentagon and descriptions of the support of the
Interagency Incident Management Teams who went to help can be found in the
following places:
Our Ground Zero Photo Page
California
Interagency Incident Management Team3 at the Pentagon
Pacific
Northwest Team3,
World Trade Center Support
(The Bateman Team site appears to have disappeared, perhaps because
of the fires burning in R3. Can anyone update or explain? There were some
historically important slide shows at this site.)
On another note, there's a post on FamilySaid.
Welcome, fire family members.
Ab. |
| 05/30 |
This question is directed to CDF personnel in-the-know. Does anyone have
any further information about a hiring freeze for the State of Calif.,
specifically the CDF?
I was just notified by letter that I had passed the examination for the
Fire Captain and that I am now on the eligible list. I am one of the 60
from outside the agency who made it through the process and exam. I would
really appreciate any reliable news concerning the freeze. I would also
like to know what the process usually is from this point forward?
Thanks much
R5 Engine Slug |
| 05/30 |
BLM Bob, no high horse for me.. just safety in mind....we've probably
hit
the point that we must just agree to disagree... and let the topic die
until
some official guidance comes out.
BLM Bob, I'm here to learn, as are many of the WLF.com folks are... we're
just a little cloudy on some things.. and work:rest is one of them.
My interpretation of work rest guidelines and yours seems to be like
comparing apples and oranges... They both fit into the same box.. but
there
are distinct differences...
The interagency guidance you refer to in 12.7-1 (for USFS folks FSH
5109.34)
is for shifts in excess of 16 hours... It doesnt relate to the 2:1
anywhere
that I can see in the text (other than the fact its in the same
sub-heading), only to shifts exceeding 16 hours. After the first
operational
period... even if it exceeds 16 hours... adequate rest should be provided.
The folks involved in Thirty Mile were either in their rest period
following
the "first operational period" or didn't have any rest following
mobilization.
And if everything does go well after the first operational period, how
does
a firefighter make up the sleep deficit from the first operational period?
... if it goes for a week or two and they only got a max of 5 hours of
rest
from the first shift and then go straight into 16 hours of work and 8
hours
of rest?... The Military has some good studies on sleep deficits and their
effects....
A stress psychologist might be a good one to give some input on this
one....
Rogue Rivers |
| 05/30 |
Could you help me identify an older novel for one of my library
borrowers? It was a book about
an Oregon forest fire published around 1960. (It's supposed to have been
written by a student
of Ken Kesey, but that's not much help as a clue.) I have found several
titles about Oregon
forest fires, but none published at that time. Thanks for any advice or
referral.
Judy <snip>, Reference Coordinator
Mountain-Valley Library System
Sacramento CA |
| 05/30 |
Rogue Rivers andd SoCalCapt,
Don't go getting up on a high horse about this. Go back and carefully read
what I wrote. The interagency guidance refers to 2:1 AFTER the first op
period. I'm not sure why you are overlooking that, but those are the
guidelines and no one here suggested breaking them. The Forest Service
isn't
different from the BLM on this.
BLM Bob |
| 05/30 |
Ab,
Just returned last week from my first trip to Italy. The most
interesting thing I saw was a swamp fire on one of the islands of Venice.
Fire boats were used to wet down the few buildings threatened while a
helicopter with a bambi bucket attempted to pinch off the running fire. No
ground crews so even though the water run was short 60%-70% of the line
hit each run had reignited by the time the helicopter returned. It took
forever to pinch that fire off. I was chastised by the rest of my friends
for sitting at an outdoor restaurant and having a beer (ok several) and
watching this fire across the bay for hours with all this
"culture" everywhere around me. I just sent them on their way
and enjoyed my beer with this dumb smile on my face thinking "what a
nice break from culture". I managed to find the "firehouse"
the next day and spoke to some of the firefighters. They were very
interested in forest fires in the US but had a hard time understanding the
problem of controlling them or how thousands of acres could be burning at
once. Of course Italy's forests are very actively managed and from what I
saw had been for hundreds (possibly thousands) of years. Small tracts of
selectively harvested and trimmed trees were all I saw from the Cinque
Terre to Venice. Tile roofs...stone or masonry walls on the urban
interface and very little in the way of fuels on the forest floor.
Anything bigger than your thumb had been picked up for firewood and sold
or used by locals. About the only thing I saw that could have gotten a
large fire going were the huge tracts of olive trees interplanted with
grains...and it appeared that farmers had cut firebreaks around each of
their fields and disked them to dirt to compartmentalize any fire that
started.
Patrick,
Contact me and I will see if I can help you. It may be too late to get the
required safety refresher course though. Without that...no red card. You
may be able to get part time employment with the MN DNR as they are pretty
short handed...with good cause.
MNFF,
I suspect that the MN DNR will keep some "emergency
firefighters" on duty most of the summer so they don't all disappear
like last year...and of course they are keeping the full time seasonal
positions on all summer. Are you looking for work?
Dana Linscott
linscott@rea-alp.com
Vice chair
Minnesota Wildland Firefighters' Assn. |
| 05/29 |
23,
"If a couple extra hours will catch a fire you're probably better off
doing it."... from your earlier post.
My hindered view (not familiar with AFS) is: What if, during those last
couple of hours trying to catch a fire, someone makes some bad judgments
and gets hurt or worse yet.. killed, because of fatigue?
What if an act of "nature" happens and a tree falls and hurts
someone. What if... ANY type of injury or worse yet, a fatality occurs...
from chainsaw cuts to entrapments.... The IC may "document" the
reasons for continuing.... But the mere appearance of fatigue will be the
haunting of the fire.... And a key point in the investigation. Are you
ready for that?
Rogue Rivers |
| 05/29 |
There's a pretty good discussion regarding the work rest guidelines
going
on... I thought I'd add my thoughts.....
In the Forest Service, we received a letter from the very Top that said we
would ADHERE to the work rest guidelines. That makes it policy for all of
us
USFS folks as far as I understand.
In California and abroad, our California Incident Management teams
actively
use the work rest guidelines while managing incidents.
It does happen that folks work over 16 hours in a shift... sometimes a
whole
lot more. The excessive shifts are documented and approved by the IC...
and
then the crew is rested according to the 2:1 Work/Rest ratio.
Here's an example: Crew 999 worked 19 hours completing a burnout that was
critical. They return to camp. They are advised that they will be off duty
for 9.5 hours before they are returned to the fire line. A special
briefing
is held for them before they return to the fireline.
Bob, the Interagency Incident Business Management Handbook does spell out
the requirement for the Agency Administrator or IC to approve all shifts
in
excess of 16 hours... but I dont think it gives them power to not meet the
2:1 work/rest guidelines. Maybe BLM is different.
Just my thoughts...
SoCalCapt |
| 05/29 |
Well, just as things were going to get interesting, word through the CDF
channels is that the Gov has lifted our exemption from the state hiring
freeze.
CDF can not hire for now.
This occurs with a tremendous amount of vacancies in fire protection.
Interesting times ahead. Get ready for OT and no days off. Coming up.....
No Budget
No Spending
No Hiring
Maybe no paycheck
Another CDF BC
Work/Rest Guidelines? Ab. |
| 05/29 |
Rogue Rivers,
All federal agencies use the 2:1 work-rest guidelines. Key word:
guidelines, more on that in a bit. Get a copy of the Fire Business Mgmt
Handbook and read 12.7-1 Work/Rest Guidelines: www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/iibmhb2.pdf
(Warning - huge file)
It sez:
"12.7-1 -Work/Rest Guidelines. To maintain safe, productive incident
activities, incident management personnel must appropriately manage work
and rest periods, assignment duration, and shift length for crews,
overhead personnel, and support personnel. Plan for and ensure that crews,
overhead personnel, and support personnel are provided a 2 to 1 work to
rest ratio (for every 2 hours of work or travel, provide 1 hour of sleep
and/or rest). The Incident Commander or Agency Administrator shall
document, approve, and include in the daily incident records, the
justification for work shifts exceeding 16 hours, including travel time,
after the first operational period."
Note what it says about ICs approving shifts greater than 16 hours, and
also "after the first operational period."
Now, as to your questions: A-175 The Milepost Fire - they're showing 8
1/2 hours off duty, at least by my math. No problems there, right?
A-215 Dawg Fire: It's an initial attack, and Alaska Fire Service (AFS)
has a Work Rest Policy that states : "The first operational period
will be limited to a maximum of 19 hours with a minimum of five hours rest
before beginning the next operational period. Each subsequent operational
period will be no longer than 16 hours with a minimum of eight hours rest
in between."
That is interpreted as a standing justification for the first shift of
initial attack exceeding 16 hours, which is in line with the Fire Business
Mgmt Handbook. On the Dawg Fire, they got 6 hours off, now they would be
expected not to exceed 16 hours per shift.
Right now, because of the Forest Service's (Note that AFS is basically
a BLM outfit) 30 Mile fire action plan, there are a lot of rumors and
misconceptions about work/rest ratios. The Fire Business Mgmt Handbook
sets the baseline. Units may set more stringent guidelines, but so far, no
one that I'm aware of has done that in writing.
So, what you read in the AFS Sit Report meets the official guidance.
BLM Bob |
| 05/29 |
Rogue Rivers:
In AK we run our first operational period on a fire up to 19 hours; 16's
after that. Due to the remote characteristic of many of our fires we
are not able to staff at Lower 48 levels (airplanes cost $). Our folks
are very cognizant of the 2:1 ratio. Bottom line: IC makes the call &
must justify (in writing) anything over 16 after the first operational
period. If a couple extra hours will catch a fire you're probably
better off doing it.
23 |
| 05/29 |
Hi,
Anyone from Minnesota, is the DNR going to keep smokechasers on for most
of the summer this year? thanks
stay safe,
MNFF |
| 05/29 |
Does anyone know if all Federal Agencies are using the 2 to 1 work rest
ratio guidelines?
I came across some info on two fires in Alaska that just
"glared" at me. I'm
not armchair quarter backing... but they just seem to stand out since they
are on the Alaska GACC website.... And we have been hounded so bad about
these guidelines since 30 Mile....
A-175 - "Milepost 78" Crews off duty at 2300.. on duty 0730 (IHC
CREW and
EFF Crews assigned)
A-215 - "Dawg"..... IC+7 will bed down @ 2400 and resume
activities at 0600
5/28." (Smokejumpers assigned)
Rogue Rivers |
| 05/28 |
AB,
I am in need of information on how to get on some fires this year.
I was a DNR wildland firefighter in Minnesota from 1996 to 2000. I then
joined the Navy. I am currently stationed in Bremerton, WA and I would
like
to find an agency to fight fires with this summer. I recently participated
in the annual refresher course required for my red card. I have not taken
the pack test.
If you have any information on how I could contact an agency or make
myself
more employable, please let me know.
Very respectfully,
Patrick |
| 05/28 |
Here's an interface AZ community near the Coronado NF that's doing its
best to reduce fire hazards.
Mount Lemmon Fire: http://mountlemmonfire.com/Firewise%20Index.html
Mellie |
| 05/28 |
Ab,
Nice link to the Bullock fire, with lots of pics.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado/bullock/index.html
My daughter's on this one, as are a whole bunch of others. Be safe out
there.
Papa |
| 05/28 |
The jumper hit with a tree on the Berrago is fine, he was
observed overnight and released. The liner in his hard
hat broke so there was some concern for him. Berrago
received very light rain Sunday with snow above 11,000
feet, Overcast with reduced temps and higher humidity
Monday. Warming up with thunderstorms in the evening
for the next week, showers possible. Problem areas are
in the Pecos wilderness with numerous spot fires.
and there I was |
| 05/27 |
Any info on the firefighter that was hit by a tree on the Coronado NF?
Jeb
An article describing that fire just got posted to our news
page. Ab. |
| 05/27 |
I have a CDF aircraft safety ppt that is public domain, its 7mb though,
not
emailable, but I would make it available if anyone wants it.
Capt 180 |
| 05/27 |
Ab, I just was given this link (
http://envweb.env.gov.ab.ca/env/forests/fpd/ ) for the Alberta Forest
Protection web site. Thought you would be interested.
RxFire
Thanks RxFire. Nice site. I put it on the links
page, world section. Ab. |
| 05/27 |
Here is a link to some web cameras that show smoke from the Bullock fire
near Tucson. The cameras are operated by the Pima County Department of
Environmental Quality.
http://www.airinfonow.org/html/pics.html
Jackson
Thanks Jackson. Thanks also to Danny who sent in a link to the web
cam on the Bullock Fire. Ab. |
| 05/27 |
Another CDF BC,
I pulled my copy of the list to get better numbers. There are 62
outside-CDF persons on the Open list. Total number is 248 for the entire
list. 1.4 persons per currently open jobs on the Promotional list and 1.9
persons per job over the entire list. That's better odds than getting a
date! Rumor has it that there are plans to fast-track a new exam.
Saw the lead pickle, gave him a copy of the list and directions to the
uniform shop.
JW |
| 05/27 |
Hey everyone in the firefighting community.
Down on a 2 week detail in Colorado right now as a dispatcher. Memorial
day is tomorrow and I thought it would be fitting to remember those fallen
comrades. The latest big fire in Colorado broke out on my desk - The
Schoonover fire. Since I am from Washington (western WA at that) we don't
get large fires like that, so it was real challenging and exciting to deal
with one that had the momentum that one did.
The IC and crews out there did a PHENOMENAL job. Pulled back to safety
zones when they needed and didn't try to push it. I would like to say
thanks for making my job on the other end of the radio an easier one. The
winds just carried it away form them--it was REAL windy that day. I also
worked in Wenatchee last year right after 30 mile, and had friends on
South Canyon. Being only 28, I am still just a fire pup. I have spent time
on the line with a crew and on an engine. This radio girl would like to
say to everyone out there, just starting their fire season or coming back
from a detail... let's be safe and watch out for each other...the fire
community is very small and caring, let's keep it that way.
EVERYONE BE SAFE AND HAVE A FUN EXCITING SUMMER.
hugs from the radio girl :)
a moment of silence for those fighting the big fire in the sky. |
| 05/27 |
Hi Ab:
I guess I have been lurking long enough. Fire season is just starting
here in Nova Scotia Canada with a few small ones over the weekend. Our
fires don't get as big as yours out west. We had one here in my fire
coverage area last year that was about 80 acres and that was the second
largest in the provence for last year. Most of the fires here are an acre
or two. Most wildland fires are fought by volunteer fire depts with air
support from Dept of Natural Resourses's 5 choppers and sometimes a rented
fixed wing from either Newfoundland or Quebec when their FWI is down.
Natural Resourses also supplies a few trucks and some firefighters (mostly
students), they also keep a series of towers manned for the summer. I
guess that's it from here. Keep safe.
Dodge
Good morning and welcome Dodge. Glad to have fire info from our
northern neighbor. Ab. |
| 05/26 |
Hey Ab
I saw a couple of posts about the sigg drip torch I have to say they are
nice and small and fit in your pack pretty good they also work in a jam
however we sent them back because we just didn't like them because of too
many parts to loose and you have add more bar oil to the mix because the
fuel burns to hot so we keep it simple just pack a few drip torches. I
reckon my biggest bitch is too many parts to loose.
EH |
| 05/26 |
The mini drip torch, "Fuel Bottle Drip Torch" officially,
comes from Fireline Engineering. Contact Chris Johnson @ 760-375-3109 or
Email johnsonc@ridgenet.net.
They work using saw gas/oil mix, and hook right up to a Sigg Bottle; about
10 -15 minutes of firing time. A slick tool, and can be transported
cleanly and safely in a red pack (without the Sigg bottle, of course!!).
Mollysboy |
| 05/26 |
Dear Ab,
We use a few of those mini drip torches on the Roosevelt Shots that
"boss" was asking about please forward my e-mail address to him
. I am on days off when I go back I will pull info off the containers that
they come in.
Rocky Mountain
p.s. They're sweet and a ton of fun to use
Thanks for your input Rocky, see the above post. Ab. |
| 05/25 |
Ab,
Im looking for anybody who might have a power point program of the NFES
2097 Basic Aviation Safety or a similar version of this class. Any help is
appreciated.
Thanks
Ray C. |
| 05/25 |
I've been trying to locate a vender for the mini drip torches that I've
heard about, have you heard of them, and w(h)ere to get them?
boss |
| 05/25 |
Good Morning All!
Happy Memorial Day Holiday or work day, as the case may be. Be SAFE
wherever you are, whether on the fireline, on the barbeque with friends
and family, or on the road. Things are definitely heated up, fire-wise.
Many are heading out to R3 from R5 and around the US.
A post came in from NC Crew who put all capital letters in his
"subject line", he was so excited to be leaving today for R3
with his crew. Unfortunately because of the caps, I deleted his post with
the spam. Just wanted to let you know that he invited theysaiders, if you
come across a NC Crew in firecamp, to look him up and say hi .
The Jobs Page and
Job Series 0462 and 0455
Pages were updated yesterday. Check the need for Hotshot Crew Bosses and
Asst Crew Bosses.
We're still working on the many photos that have come in. Hopefully we'll
be caught up by Tuesday.
Have a good'un.
Ab. |
| 05/24 |
Quill,
>"My question is this: Is having to run up a somewhat steep,
brushy hill really an escape route, knowing that fire moves more quickly
uphill? "
Two words - South Canyon.
>"And if that's considered an escape route (and it wouldn't
surprise me if it were, having once seen a 1.5 mile run through heavy
canopy and litter called an escape route) does there need to be a change
in thinking?"
Yes.
BLM Bob |
| 05/24 |
Ok -- here's a question for you. When people talk about escape routes,
does
there need to be more of an emphasis on realistic escape routes?
The scenario: 9:15 a.m., large fire burning in manzanita and Ppine. Your
crew is on the west flank of the fire, which happens to be burning the
hottest. This is day 2 of the fire; day 1 included several hundred acres
of
continuous crown fire in Ppine. ERCs are at historical highs, 1,000-hour
fuels are running at <5%. Weather is clear skies, 65 degrees, upslope
winds
are 10-15.
You are on a two-track in the wilderness which cuts a steep, manzanita
slope in two, horizontally, like a belt. About 1/8 of a mile above you is
another two-track. To access it , you'd have to go up the manzanita hill;
a
line has been cut down the hill, but it is still steep to get up there.
The fire is 1/4 mile below where you stand. As you look into the basin
in which it's burning, there's considerable smoke, and occasional
torching.
The fire has spotted to your side of the basin, about 100 yards or so
below
your two-track. There's good, cold black a half-mile away (but if the fire
comes up, it will cut you off from that route), and a little tiny patch of
hot black 200 yards away.
Though the manzanita slope is covered in dry retardant from the previous
day's air show, the spot fire brings forth the questions of safety zones.
The designated safety zone is the two track further up the hill; thus, the
escape route is straight up the hill.
My question is this: Is having to run up a somewhat steep, brushy hill
really an escape route, knowing that fire moves more quickly uphill? And
if that's considered an escape route (and it wouldn't surprise me if it
were, having once seen a 1.5 mile run through heavy canopy and litter
called an escape route) does there need to be a change in thinking?
Be safe folks,
Quill. |
| 05/24 |
Rogue Rivers and DM,
I concur. However, DM, don't get the statements made by the Forest
Supervisor, Sonny O'Neal, confused with "fire management on the
WEF/OKF". In my opinion, that has two different meanings.
Predictable, predictable, predictable!(Gordon Graham makes this case
pretty well). I agree, what we do is "PREDICTABLE"! As far as I
know, there is no new and innovative way to fight fire. We are doing it
the same way as our predecessors. Although no two fires are exactly the
same, the inherent hazards are always there, we mitigate our hazards and
anchor and flank. What happened to the "keeping it simple"
theory? It works!
We avoid entrapments through "prevention", not after the
fact. This responsibility lies on the leader of which ever module/crew,
not to mention each individual firefighter. We as an agency are spending
to much time and energy in creating more policy as a "reaction"
to something instead of "LEADING" our people and
"TEACHING" our people about how to prevent these things and
mentoring our people through "on the ground" fire experiences.
We need to pay attention more to our workforce. One simple rule of
leadership, "If you take care of your people, they will perform to
the maximum extent of their capabilities". We, as an agency, fail in
this one basic rule of leadership. There has been great strides made in
the arena of "human factors" training and to me, this is the
"meat" of our current situation. We are not learning from our
predecessors or from their/our mistakes. We need to concentrate on
"testing" our people in stressful-situational training, we need
to raise the bar on physical fitness standards (a fit body = a fit mind),
and we need a screening process to ensure the people we put into these
leadership roles are up to the task.
As an agency, our workload is increasing more and more everyday and as
I watch this happening, I'm watching "leaders" pay less and less
attention to the people they should be leading, mentoring and challenging
through "realistic" training.
Can an agency hold people, such as District Fire Managers and Forest
Fire Staff, accountable for not providing a crew with escape routes and
safety zones? I wouldn't ever expect a Duty Officer, FMO, IHC Supt, Engine
Captain, or anyone else for that matter, to identify my crews' escape
routes and safety zones. If you can't take care of "your"
people(your crew) and provide sound leadership, then the failure lies with
"you", as well as the accountability for failing to mitigate any
unsafe situations.
I'm not claiming to know all the facts, I'm just stating the obvious.
Hopefully when all is said and done, we as a firefighting community can
stand up for what is "right" and back our fellow firefighters.
We can't allow the media, politics and the agency itself to drive us away
from what is fact and "morally right". Don't get me wrong,
people need to be held accountable, as long as the "right"
people are held accountable. I could go on and on, this whole thing upsets
me.
Ab's, thanks for your site.
2nd Generation IHC Supt. |
| 05/24 |
Please mark your calendars for an important event on December 4-6, 2002.
The IAWF, in cooperation with the International Association of Fire Chiefs
(IAFC) and the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station, are
pleased to announce "Wildfire 2002: Surviving the Interface Danger
Zone."
This is the first-ever national Wildland Urban Interface Conference. The
conference will be held in Kansas City.
Contact mcdowell@iawfonline.org
to receive the pdf flyer. |
| 05/24 |
Howdy fellow fire fighters.
Does anybody know if there are any engine boss presentations or class that
is on a power point program.
seafire |
| 05/24 |
JW:
You have any idea why many of the names on the promotional list are
duplicated on the open list? With only about 250 names on both lists
combined, this is still about 100 shy of what some of our recent list
sizes for promotional FC used to have. Looks like all will get an offer.
The "auction" will remove many for sure.
With only 60 names roughly coming outside CDF, a fair statement is made on
how the economic package for this position had deteriorated in comparison
to agencies and departments.
PS. Good job to lead pickle. Time now to learn again how to count to 17!
"Another CDF BC" |
| 05/23 |
my district (in regards to not paying OT or Comp for training over base
8) does this: you are in travel status on the way to a training class that
might be anywhere from 1/2 hour to 45 min. drive from your duty station.
If you have to pick materials up, fuel gov. vehicles, outfit an engine for
the class, its considered volunteer time. You are supposedly
"covered" under workmans comp for an injury but if you wont
"volunteer" your time to get things set up for a training class
(in this case its ENGB) then someone else will (most likely a temp
seasonal). The budget is the main concern here because the overtime will
come out of this budget and thus shorten everyones season due to budget
constraints. Management considers it a pissing match over a few hours,
which I discovered totals nearly 6.5 hours. EEO and OPM sources say its up
to the district and its an uphill battle not worth fighting (if you value
your job and performance rating) I say its a huge problem considering the
implications of volunteer work that involves the same type of work you
would ordinarily do on the clock. Its required training after all... and
Im not headed there driving my personal rig, enjoying a cigarette and some
CDs.
drw |
| 05/23 |
We're now under a Winter Storm Warning... funny how this weather is so
hot
and cold.
Anyway, here's a link to www.pinecam.com if you don't have it already.
They
are providing the most current information including pics and maps of the
latest fires in the Pike Natl Forest areas. There's also a webcam that
updates every 30 minutes (I think) and is usually pointed at which ever
fire
is the most active. Take notice of the Scanner Updates discussion area...
people are listening and updating this area frequently with information
they
hear coming over their scanner.... interesting concept -- what do you guys
think?
We've been very busy this year already... everyone is a little jumpy...
hopefully the snow will help. BE SAFE!
g
Yes, everyone, be safe. Ab.
|
| 05/23 |
Please see that the Washington State press has INACCUARATELY reported on
the Thirtymile Administrative Review. <Ab snipped name> is
currently reviewing recommendations from the Administrative Review team
who completed their interviews in early May. As a precautionary measure
some Okanogan and Wenatchee forest personnel were asked to "stand
down" from fire operational work until decisions are made. These
folks are still going to work everyday on the Oka/Wen forest - assigned to
non-fire operations work.
We expect more negative and/or inaccurate press to occur regarding
Thirtymile. Let's be professionals - and not spread rumors that are likely
untrue and painful to those involved in the tragedy.
Ab Note: Until the process is done and
actions are officially taken, I am pulling the link to the article from
05/20 Register Guard (OR) that was based on the Associated Press report
that was based on the Yakima Herald article of a few days ago. I am told
that we may not know for perhaps a year what the outcome of the legal
(due) process is. |
| 05/23 |
I urge readers to not assume that any of the Methow Valley FS personnel
named in one of the Methow Valley News editorials are being reassigned or
subject to personnel actions.
AG, legal beagle |
| 05/23 |
From Firescribe:
CNN.com - Colorado wildfire tears through 4,000 acres
www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/23/wildfires.colorado/index.html |
| 05/23 |
For Those Who Are Wondering, The new CDF Fire Captain list is on the
street. Here are some bullet points.
-Approximately 800 employees and outside firefighters applied.
-About 425 accepted for interviews.
-After no-shows and not-minimually-qualified ratings the Promotional list
has about 185 names and the Promotional and Open combined list has about
285 names.
-Roughly 130 jobs open at this time.
-Some Units will not be able to use the combined list due to the number of
transfer requests and interest in available jobs. Some units will be able
to use the combined list for the opposite reasons.
-Normally a Promotional list has to be exhausted before an Open list is
used to fill a vacancy. It is not quite clear to me when the Combined list
enters the picture.
-Large scale hiring should start within the next two weeks.
JW |
| 05/22 |
CFU or Community Fire Unit -- information about these can be seen at
www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?globalid=8
Background information dated 30 December, 2001 17.30pm
Sydney, New South Wales (NSW),Australia,
Weather Forecast: · Today WSW winds in W half of NSW. NW elsewhere.
VH/Extreme fire danger.
Total Fire Bans are in place for all areas of the State.
67 aircraft will be deployed today
380,000 acres of uncontrolled or controlled fires
>From NSWFB site
Dec. 26,2001 Property losses include 141 homes, 19 vehicles, 40 other
structures including factories, shops and sheds. One school in Waterfall
has been lost. Over 8,000 firefighters are fighting fires in the
Hawkesbury, Blue Mountain and the Illawarra areas today. Successful back
burning conducted by fire crews last night and this morning has meant
that the fire threat has eased and to some degree kept within the
containment lines. There has been no property loss in the last 48 hours;
however, fires are still burning in Spencer, Nattai and the Shoalhaven
areas.
The top temperatures, which were predicted for today, have now been
revised and not expected to rise above 30 degrees, which has been a
blessing for fire crews and people living in the affected areas.
However, the southerly winds which were predicted yesterday have come
earlier than expected and fire crews are still on extreme alert as the
bushfire danger is totally dependent on the erratic weather behaviour
which is still continuing to create unusual effects. Today's NSWFB
commitment is:
13 fire engines Wollongong
11 fire engines Wollondilly
15 fire engines Sutherland
24 fire engines Blue Mountains
4 fire engines Penrith
1 fire engine Baulkham Hills
And all other Brigade resources are on standby and to be used on request
by
the Rural Fire Service.
(www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?sectionid=323)
Please Note: Aussie Terminology Bushfire = Wildfire = Forest Fire)
It was about 8:00pm Jan 1st 2002 (Happy??? New Year) and I was staring at
flames that were close to 120ft tall less than 100 yards away from my
house. The fire had been started by some @#$$%* arsonist that afternoon. I
stood in a pair of jeans, work boots, long sleeved shirt, a respirator,
leather work gloves, snow skiing goggles (better than nothing) and
hardhat. The garden hoses were on the roof wetting it down and the
sprinkler system, in the backyard that bordered onto the about 150 acres
of National and local Gov’t parkland forest, were going full blast. My
entire street is surrounded by that same forest, a typical Sydney
urban/wildland interface. However I am less than 10 miles (as the crow
flies from Sydney’s CBD).
Looking at those flames I thought to myself, there has to be a better
way to protect my house and myself. As a result of a small bush fire that
an arsonist had started less than a mile away on Boxing Day, I had
installed a sprinkler system to cover my backyard and parts of my
neighbours' yards. (I had gazed longingly at a fire fighting gas powered
pump and hose kit, as I have a swimming pool, at the irrigation placewhere
I bought the sprinkler system but at $1,200, I didn’t have the money.)
I had been told (by the previous owners when I moved into this house 4
years ago) that in the 1994 bushfires, which came to within 100 yards of
my house, that the water mains had dried up once the Fire Brigades had
connected up to them. (4in. diameter, what can I say for 50 plus houses?)
With what I had, plus the expected weather forecast, it seemed that I
would be just as effective if I dropped my pants and tried to put the fire
out via the Boy Scout method, should the fire get past the crews on the
road below. Luckily the forecasted 30 knot winds stayed away. Between that
and about 20 fire trucks and crews lining a road conducting a back burn
operation between the fire and I, the fire was contained.
Finally about 1:20am I went to bed. But got up every hour to walk
around the house and turn on the back yard sprinklers for 20 minutes to
prevent embers from restarting the fires. Next morning I went for a walk
along the road to check the damage to the local bushland and to ensure
that there were no flare-ups.
Over the next few days I saw some articles in the newspapers about some
Community Fire Units (CFU). This seemed to be the answer. So after doing a
bit of research on the CFUs I called a local community meeting of the
houses that are in my local. I explained the concept of the CFUs and asked
people to go away and consider if they wanted to participate in the CFU
program. The end result is that we have about 30 people that will join and
put in an application.
So what is a CFU? Well, read on. (Tahoe Terrie, Sorry but at this stage
I can not answer from the side of the question that you want but I will
give you some insight as I move through the process.)
Community Fire Units (CFU)
The NSWFB (New South Wales Fire Brigades) have instituted this
progamme, in response to those devastating bushfires that raged through
much of NSW in 1994. The concept of a CFU is to act almost as a sort of a
first aider to a bush / urban interface wildfire. They are there to do
property protection and to assist in setting up for the Metro (NSWFB) and
Bush (NSW Rural Fire Service). Now it is important to remember that the
role of the CFU is to help set up for the NSWFB and NSWRFS, i.e. have the
stem pipe installed, pump set up near a static water source See my
previous post on 15.05.02), hoses laid out and members in their PPE in
order to assist. The members are there to protect property and NOT to go
into the burning bush/forest or into structures to fight the fire.
At this time the CFUs will only operate within their assigned location
(street) where they are based. If the fire arrives before the brigades do,
then the CFU fights the fire with what they have. Once the fire has passed
or been put out then they will also conduct mopping up and fire watch
operations begin. This frees up the NSWFB & NSWRFB to move with the
fire front, without leaving crewed trucks behind.
In the recent fires in Dec and Jan, the CFU concept was put to the acid
test in a full on state-wide emergency. It was recognised that they
fulfilled their role better than expected. Much praise has been given to
those CFU’s by both the NSWFB (paid} and NSWRFS {mainly volunteer}
fire-fighters and their commanding officers. The extent of that praise was
such that special funding ($400,000.00) is being given to the programme.
At last count there have been over 70 new requests to set up new CFUs in
addition to the current 150-odd active units.
Each CFU is allocated the following equipment which is either stored in
a locked outdoor storage cabinet or covered box trailer.
- CFU Equipment
- A stand/stem pipe to tap into the water mains,
- gas (petrol) powered water pump, to pump water from a pool or dam,
- 180m of hose (2” I think),
- a Y joint,
- two nozzles,
- an assortment of shovels, rakes etc.,
- two water back packs,
- 1st aid kit, and
- some witches hats.
- PPE -- The members (between 6 – 12) are issued by the NSWFB with :
- boots,
- gloves,
- goggles,
- helmets,
- respirators, and
- overalls.
We are given an initial 20 hours of training before we can become active
and then have a minimum requirement of 20 hours p.a. to remain active
(set-up cost per unit approx.$10,000.00 including training).
2/1/2002 From NSWFB site
More unprecedented hot and windy conditions and a record low humidity
level on New Year's Day meant Sydney's New Year started with more
bushfires. Yesterday's breakout in South Tarramurra, North Epping and
Pennant Hills, suspected to be deliberately lit, is still burning within
containment lines today.
The NSW Fire Brigades has over 400 firefighters committed to fighting
those fires and at least 25 community fire units with about 400
community fire unit members who are significantly assisting bushfire
operations in the Pennant Hills area. NSW Fire Brigades Superintendent
Ian Krimmer says, " The early intervention and continuous work
conducted by the community fire units has played a significant role and
contributed to saving houses.
"The community's involvement and co operation in a range of ways
like being a member of a community fire unit, preparing their homes in
case of a bushfire, and branding their letter boxes and fences with
coloured tea towels so that our firies know they have a swimming pool
has made all the difference in the number of properties that have been
saved."
"There were several cases yesterday where fire crews were able
to go straight into homes and obtain water from pools because the Static
Water Supply plates were displayed on people's homes/fences. The SWS
program has certainly proved a life and property saver and can certainly
be expanded to include many more areas in Sydney in the future."
Superintendent Krimmer said.
In addition to the NSW fire Brigade resources an extra 37 fire
engines from the Rural Fire Service, National Parks and Wildlife Service
and the Country Fire Authority are also committed to the outbreak in the
South Turramurra area.
So far the NSW Fire Brigades have the following crews committed:
I post this information as a person who has stood on the wrong end (i.e.
helpless interface home owner with little equipment to fire a wildfire) in
the hope that this program will be examined, adapted (to suit US/Can. or
wherever) and instituted where appropriate on the wildland/urban
interface. The Australian experience has been a very positive one and has
certainly helped to reduce loss of property and possibly people. Please
let this be discussed as well as my previous post (15.05.02) on the
concept of SWS (Static Water Supply).
I will be happy to answer any question that I can or direct you to …...???
Aussie CFU
Thanks Aussie CFU, again very interesting. Readers? Ab.
|
| 05/22 |
Ab
Here's some help maybe for MOC4546.
This brings up a big point with an injury during this
"training." I would
check your HR (Human Resource) person either in the office or at your
region
office and ask them what about FECA (Federal Employee Compensation Act).
Would it be considered an on the job injury, will the agency cover it?
Next ask
them if this is compliant to FLSA Fair Labor Standards Act? Sounds really
fishy with me.. My agency does not offer OT for training that is not
during
my scheduled work hours, usually on my on time or my boss might give me
comp
time. But if required to attend I think it's an auto qual for pay at
least,
OT might be a little tougher to find. I asked a HR prof of mine and I'll
try
and get you some more info.
Also check www.dol.gov and look around the Department of Labor website.
Hope this helps,
MNM561 |
| 05/21 |
MOC4546 and anyone else that can tell me what a PAC test is:
Let's all get on the same page and call it what it is: Work Capacity
Test (WCT). There are 3 fitness levels of the WCT, a person's fire
qualifications will determine which test he/she will take. You can't take
one at a higher level than what your qualifications require. The first
level of fitness is "Light" which is required for such jobs as
Type 3 Information Officer. The test is called the "Walk Test"
and involves walking one mile in 16 minutes carrying nothing. The second
level of fitness is "Moderate" which is required for such jobs
as Operations Section Chief and Safety Officer. This test is called the
"Field Test" and involves walking two miles in 30 minutes
carrying 25 pounds. The final level of fitness is "Arduous"
which is required for many positions including Firefighter. This level
requires the "Pack Test" which involves walking three miles in
45 minutes carrying 45 pounds. Actually I forgot one level of fitness,
"none", which is required for a whole bunch of jobs, none of
which involve firefighting.
The FMO that is requiring a Field Exercise on top of the other basic
requirements for annual firefighter certification is running a real
chicken-sh*t operation. If I worked there, I would be doing my darndest to
find another job somewhere else, hopefully working for someone with some
common sense as well as a sense of moral values. Someone needs to call
bullsh*t on this guy.
Spencer |
| 05/21 |
TC,
The problem is can an Fire Management Office make a mandatory policy
that any primary or secondary firefighter must VOLUNTEER, AT NO PAY,
PROVIDING FREE LABOR, guised as a Field Exercise in order to have them
eligible for off-Forest/District/Park/Reservation Fire Assignments? Can
anyone from these offices say "You work for me for free on my project
or I won't let you go to fires when we receive assignments". That is
the issue.
Many have told me that the field exercise for firefighters is not to be
used as a means of free labor when an FMO does not want to pay for
personnel for their project. I have worked in places where they did
periodic training to test firefighter skills through the season, but not
where the employees were blackmailed to work for free under the guise
"Do what I say or you can't go".
The firefighter is willing to go to the Field Exercise, but if her boss
says "I can't send you because of other work" or "I can't
pay overtime or give you Comp Time" then she gets left out because
she won't perform and act of free labor.
As to overtime, I got paid last year to go to a two-day class of which
one day was 8 hours of overtime. There was no issues about it.
I looked up where you said but could not find where it said "you
have to do training for free". I know that private contractors have
their employees do the training for free, and I know that secondary
type-II crews also have to train for free, but this is in regard to
permanent employees and seasonal federal firefighters who are being told
you have to work for free in order to get your red card and go on
assignments.
MOC4546
What if someone gets hurt when they are doing the mandatory
"volunteer" field exercise? Seems a big risk to the agency to
have people who are not covered by insurance. Accidents can happen. Ab. |
| 05/21 |
Hey AB,
I just wanted to let folks know about the Ranger pack....I
ordered one last fall and it came but it was just to big...the harness
was too big all around...I am only 5'4" and small....so I loved the
concept of the pack and I called the factory and talked with those
guys. They told me that it was common for small people to have a hard
time getting hip packs to fit properly. We discussed the possibilities
and i took some measurements and we thought we could try downsizing the
entire harness system...well I sent the harness back to them and they
downsized it and sent it back (at no cost) and it fits perfectly!!! In
fact it is like not having a pack on my back at all!!! It is great!!!
all the compartments are easily reached and it holds just enough!!! Just
wanted to give those guys an "Atta Boy!"" for their time
and effort!! so
if you are looking for a great pack...Ranger is willing to work with you
to make it fit!!! Looking forward to a busy fire season!
You all stay safe out there!!
Firebabe NH |
| 05/21 |
www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/webdaily/swaintnn.htm
The Southwest is really rock'n'rollin' now.
K. |
| 05/21 |
Rouge Rivers,
I fully concur with your post. It is sad that many in fire management on
the WEF/OKF hold on to the ‘uncontrollable, unpredictable, overwhelming
event" theory as the root cause to the 30 Mile tragedy. I guess many
have to subscribe to this personally because to believe otherwise one
would have to recognize the fact that a collective organizational failure
put the elements of the tragedy into place. And also, to say it was predictable
is to say it was preventable. Those are very hard things to admit
to, given what resulted.
If I were to believe that there are uncontrollable, unpredictable, fire
behavior events waiting out there that will "overwhelm all who
face" them, I must resign myself to an eventual entrapment, serious
injury or worse. I will never do that, nor should anyone else.
DM |
| 05/21 |
Links from Firescribe:
Article on new Colorado shots
www.durangoherald.com
Article on hotshots fighting fire in Georgia
www.jacksonville.coml
|
| 05/21 |
MOC4546
In answer to your question, it can change from agency to agency. In the
FS
if you look at the 5109.17 (Incident Qualification Handbook), it states
that local units can make additional policies, that are more restrictive,
as long as all the requirements of 5109.17 are adhered too. On the
question of overtime, it depends on the person's position, however as a
general rule, overtime cannot be paid for training. The person with this
problem should check with the local personnel office, to see what her
exact
status is. She might also try contacting the local Union to see if they
can help her out.
TC |
| 05/21 |
Last month I posed this same question to the lurkers and readers but
find I have to do it again.
Today I was approached by a person who attended the Wildland Firefighter
Refresher Course I gave and asked about requirements for going on fires as
a secondary firefighter. I told her that she had to attend the refresher
course (which she did) and pass the PAC Test (which hasn't been scheduled
yet) in order to be re-certified for the Fire Season. She brought to me a
memo that stated "In order for you to be eligible to go on Fire
Assignment you must pass a PAC Test, attend a Refresher Course, and
participate in a Field Exercise. Anyone who does not will not be sent out
on assignment."
The problem is the regs require only the PAC Test and the Refresher
Course. The Fire Management Office is trying to force people to come in,
help them prep an area for burning by cutting line all day for their
project. Here's the questionable act:
*Those who participate in the "Field Exercise" will not be paid
overtime if its on their day off.
*If the secondary firefighter cannot get the time to go because their boss
needs them at work, they can't go.
*The Field Exercise is only offered once.
Here's the question: Can a Federal Wildland Fire Agency force an employee
to attend an all-day class without being on-the-clock in order to meet
this requirement? Can the FMO stop someone from being sent an assignment
if the secondary firefighter's primary supervisor tells her "I can't
afford the overtime and I can't let you go to the Field Exercise due to
other work"?
People I have polled in the Forest Service and BLM have told me that an
employee cannot be forced to work for free, that NIFC regulations require
only a Recert Class and PAC Test for returning firefighters, the Field
Exercise is not a valid requirement for returnees, and that an FMO cannot
enforce that requirement for either primary or secondary firefighters if
it is not possible for them to attend.
Can anyone supply me with a legal rule or department regulation that could
answer this question? I need something factual or that can be demonstrated
on paper that I can take and say "You can't do this!". This FMO
has used this as a tactic to get free labor for project work they don't
want to pay for and is being used to prevent some firefighters from being
red-carded. This would not be an issue if the employees were being paid OT
or if it were done during normal working hours, but this is "come
work for me for free or you won't go out on fires".
The people who want to go on fires don't have a problem with attending a
Field Exercise if it's to evaluate their skills and if they are on-duty.
None of them feel they should be threatened to be held back if they do not
want to work for free. This has happened the last three years with this
FMO.
MOC4546 |
| 05/20 |
Mr. Roeder, I have been reading the articles you have been writing, you
may
work for a "prize winning" news paper but I see factual
reporting getting
close to turning into a "witch hunt." Do not let your quest for
the "prize"
blind you to fair, factual and honest reporting.
The other thing that surprises me is the attention that Washington State
senator Maria Cantwell is paying to the investigation and the
"uninformed"
statements she is making, and it is not even an election year!
*read that pulling it out her *****.
Sign me "one from the wet place" |
| 05/20 |
I'm a high school senior who is looking into firefighting as a career. I
have to write a report all about what firemen wear and what their jobs
entail. If there is any way that you could possibly send me any
information
about what their turnout gear is made out of or from, that would be
greatly
appreciated. Also any other information you see as useful or important I
wouldn't mind having either.
Sincerely,
john |
| 05/20 |
Hey Ab, just happened to run across these and since they have been
recently discussed I thought
I'd pass them along.
30 mile newsflash from AP
DUI firefighter (Reno Gazette)-- Fatal
crash driver had previous DUI conviction
>From the story it looks like this guy was a federal firefighter and it
wasn't his first DUI.
Fedfire
Thanks Fedfire and others who sent in the link to the 30mi AP
Newsflash. Ab.
As of 05/23, a further update. The AP report on which these articles is
based is in error and the links to the articles have been deleted. Ab. |
| 05/20 |
To All-
I ship out tomorrow from the East Coast for another summer with the
'shots.
Thanks to all of you for providing me with fire topics to keep my mind
sharp
during the down season - city life can get pretty boring. Hope to work
with, or along side, some of you this summer,
JerseyBoy
Check in when you can. Be Safe. Ab. |
| 05/20 |
From John:
28 Countries to Jointly Practice Forest Fire Fighting in Croatia 22-24
May - Invitation to Media
"The exercise, labeled "Taming the Dragon - Dalmatia
2002" is the
biggest ever conducted in Europe, with 28 countries involved"
www.nato.int/eadrcc/tdragon/a020507e.htm |
| 05/20 |
Hello all,
I finally got a chance to check my e-mail and found this link.
I thought everyone would like to see this. Check out the fire simulator
also, its really cool.
Take care and have a safe season...
Dennis R5
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fire/
Heya Dennis, we hyped the NOVA Fire Wars show here on theysaid for
weeks before its debut and then reviewed it afterwards. Did'ja notice the
link to wildlandfire.com on their links page? Haven't been reading here
lately, have you? HAW HAW. Ab. |
| 05/20 |
The reason the FS has not divulged details of pending disciplinary
actions
is it is illegal to do so. The Privacy Act and several other Federal laws
prohibit the release of such information until after disposition of the
case, and then only limited info is available to be released to the
public.
This is not the FS stonewalling or intentionally covering something up, it
is obeying laws passed by Congress.
You may obtain some information from the in-house rumor mill, which may or
may not be accurate or factual. But you should check with your legal
department before publishing any information obtained from other than
official channels. Inaccurate or sensational reporting may ruin careers
and
damage personal lives of innocent people.
Gordon |
| 05/20 |
Re 30 Mi info on individuals being released to Mr. Roeder,
I don't think the govt can share that info with the media or the public at
large prior to settlement of the the whole incident without risking
lawsuit.
Re announcing the IC by name on an incident,
I am worried that if first and last names are released over the airwaves
on an incident, I will then start getting phone calls at home from the
media wanting to know this and that about the fire. I am not alone in
being very displeased by this prospect. I have no concerns about being
accountable for my choices, actions and oversight. I always act with that
accountability in mind as do all R5 managers I know. Mandating name
announcement is bull$h*t in my estimation. Find some other way to make
clear and reinforce the chain-of-command if that is necessary.
NorCal Tom |
| 05/20 |
Ab,
The CDF four person engine companies were in the North Region only last
year. Supposedly there was an analysis that showed values saved by the
additional person were significant. I haven't seen the report. There has
been some talk about beefing up SoCal this year either by hiring or
pre-positioning resources. For a couple of years my unit beefed up engines
on strike teams to four and five persons. It made a dramatic difference in
production and capability.
So far the state budget cuts haven't made it to the fire protection side
of
CDF. However, the emergency fund from which we pay fire suppression costs
above IA, was restructured so that we have about half the spending
authority
in total dollars. This means that we spend out of our general fund budget
until we can get a "reload" from the legislature. With the
E-fund tapped
the only way for CDF to stay solvent is to delay payment to vendors. The
double edged sword is that there is a payment penalty imposed on the state
if vendors aren't paid in a timely manner and small business operators
can't
afford to carry the state for six months. This harks back to 1992,
ancient history to some, where we had to negotiate with vendors to take
purchase orders in order to feed our traveling crews.
Static water supplies are not new to the fire service. The NFPA has a
standard for rural water supplies that involves developing streams and
water
bodies to be usable year-round. The ISO (Insurance Services Organization)
recognizes these water supplies when rating fire departments. Since we are
talking about interface fire fighting where water is important and
municipal
type supplies often fail it would be a good idea to overlap the hydrant
system with a static system. Section 4290 of the CA Public Resources Code
suggests to local government a model code where each rural house not on a
municipal system have at least 2,500 gallons of water available for fire
fighting. The CA rural fire service and wildland agencies have not been
aggressive enough at developing static water sources. Even the City of San
Francisco has a major static water system, it only took one good
earthquake
for them to get the idea. We fight fires in the same places over and over
without improving infrastructure.
JW |
| 05/20 |
dunno what the weather is like in So Cal, but most of north zone
received lots of rain Sunday, more forecast for
Monday. It poured in the Mendo region and into the ElDo.
so, kids, time to practice the drills for a fire safe season to come.
be well and stay safe wherever you are!
Mom |
| 05/20 |
Mr. Roeder:
While it is our business to know what happened at Thirtymile and what we
can use to learn from it, it is my belief that it is not our business as
to the specifics of the discipline.
Unless the individuals want to come forward and tell us (you) the details,
this information should not be released.
I believe the direct families should possibly be the only one that know
the fine details of the discipline, with permission from the FS and
employees directly involved.
I can't answer the question have they fought fire since then.. my guess..
no.
Yes, your articles deserved to win awards and was an excellent way to get
the facts straight. Thanks you for that. I understand the need to dig for
information but I just think your request goes too far.
SRW |
| 05/20 |
Excellent posts by the paper......
"While Forest Service investigations found serious safety violations
at Thirtymile, Okanogan Wenatchee Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal and other
officials have attributed mistakes to an unpredictable fire that would
have 'overwhelmed any who faced it."
Serious Safety violations... YES (*ten of them* at the bare minimum).....
"Overwhelmed by ANY who had faced it"... NO WAY IN HELL... We
have Hotshots Superintendents, HS Captains, Engine Captains, and Module
Leaders who make those decisions every day.. It Seemed a HS Supt. made the
decision to disengage on the fire and wasn't listened to....... He used
his training, experience, and fire knowledge to make that decision... It
was a good decision.
Holding folks accountable has always been the problem... the safety
mechanisms have always been in PLACE... holding folks accountable hasn't
taken place.
Fire is a PREDICTABLE thing when you realize the signs around you... The
inability to recognize these signs is NOT an excuse.
Drought, inexperience, multiple fires, topography, the total lack of
adherence to the 10 Standard Fire Orders, lack of LCES, and the lack of
recognition of the 18 situations caused this incident.
Adherence to the 10, 18 and LCES have been policy for the USDI and USDA
since "Storm King". Enforcement hasn't. Nothing more and nothing
less.
Rogue Rivers |
| 05/19 |
From the Washington Post... And it's about time.
"Computer
Upgrade to make Savings Plan a Daily Affair for Participants"
Bear |
| 05/19 |
Hey, Ab and firefighters:
I'm a reporter who has been covering the Thirtymile Fire since July 10.
Our paper has won
several national and regional awards for our investigation of the
circumstances that led to the
deaths of Jessica Johnson, Karen FitzPatrick, Tom Craven and Devin Weaver.
Having just found
your site, I noticed several of our articles referenced. Here's one more.
On Sunday we reported
on how the Forest Service is dealing with the commanders at Thirtymile and
how they are
training firefighters to avoid the mistakes that killed last year. That
can be found at
www.yakima-herald.com.
All of our Thirtymile coverage can be found in archives on the site.
Now, here's the catch: The Forest Service hasn't been very forthcoming on
couple of items that
I need to know more about -- who is facing discipline over their role at
Thirtymile and have
those people facing discipline fought fire since Thirtymile.
I could use your help. And if you have comments on our stories, I'll take
those too.
Thanks,
Tom Roeder
Reporter
The Yakima Herald-Republic |
| 05/19 |
I just wanted to let everyone know that nimrod packs are the absolute
toughest on the market. i just bought the fl n-350 to replace my old pg
bag
and i have not been disappointed yet, these packs offer unparalleled
comfort. i hike 4-8 miles every other day and my shoulders feel just as
fresh
at the end of my hikes as they did when i started. i would recommend the
nimrod line of packs to anyone HANDS DOWN.
thanks,
idfiredawg |
| 05/18 |
Two brush fires have been cooking along today scorching more than 1000
acres, forcing 30 families to evacuate an area north of Ft Pierce FL. Temp
was 91 degrees today, cooling now. Fine fuels are VERY dry. Winds that
played a part in fanning the flames earlier are lessening as evening comes
on. We have 300+ firefighters and helo support working on the fire. Green
burns even with high humidity.
Be Safe All!
FL Ranger. |
| 05/18 |
Speaking of the funniest things ever on an application, this is my all
time favorite. " I didn't ever graduate from high school but I was
Valid
Victorian of my freshman class." If you don't get it have someone
help
you with any future apps you might put in.
Later, Rudy
PS Good to hear that Prescott, AZ dodged that bullet. |
| 05/18 |
Hi all,
Just wondering what everyone thinks of Nimrod line packs.
I am thinking of getting a nimrod or eagle gear.
Any input would be great.
thanks
MA DEM D-7
Hey, Nimrod has a classifieds ad with us and came recommended by
firefighters, as did others on our Classifieds
Page. Check 'em out. Ab. |
| 05/18 |
FireSandwich,
Wish that was your app. we were looking at but it wasn't. This guy had NO
fire experience, although he was an EMT. Hope I didn't offend you. It was
a humorous note in the midst of a pile of apps. It got us to look twice.
Hope with your fire experience that it worked for you.
An-R5er |
| 05/18 |
Ab please post this. Readers, please RSVP if you plan to attend:
All are welcome to attend:
The California Fire Chiefs Association, Communications Section, in
partnership with the California Office of the State Fire Marshal,
presents:
The Utah Olympic Public Safety Experience: Planning for Success
The 2002 Winter Olympic Games: Lessons Learned for Homeland Security and
MCI A Presentation by Capt. T. J. Kennedy, Deputy Director, Utah Olympic
Public Safety Command
Also Presenting: World Class Winter Olympics Dispatching
Randall Larson, 9-1-1 Magazine/San Jose Fire
Chuck Barker, Placer County Communications
Held in the shadow of September 11th, safety and security at the 2002
Winter Olympics Games in Salt Lake City, Utah were of paramount
importance. Hundreds of law enforcement, dozens of firefighter/EMS
personnel, and nearly 50 public safety dispatchers volunteered or were
assigned to make the 2002 Winter Olympics a safe experience for all
concerned.
This special FREE presentation will immediately follow the general CFCA
Communications Section meeting.
WHEN:
Weds May 29, 2002
CFCA Communications Meeting 09:30 - 11:30
UOPSC Presentations 11:30 - 2:30
WHERE:
San Jose Airport Inn - 1355 N 4th St @ E Gish Rd
408/453-5340
Hosted by the San Jose Fire Department
A lunch order (min. $10) will be taken at the start of the meeting.
Morning refreshments will be provided.
Please RSVP:
Randall Larson, 408-227-8027 |
| 05/17 |
R5-er,
So you saw my application, ehh? Which forest? I personally thought the
"Sandwich Artist" experience on the resume fit in nicely with
the previous fire and EMT work.
See you this summer!
-FireSandwich
<HAW><HAW><HAW> Small fire world! Ab. |
| 05/17 |
For R-5 fire hounds. does anybody know where I can
find a document or manual regarding 8hr or 24hr
refresher for camp support people (non-fireline). Or
does it even exist? We had a long discussion about
this on forest and there were mixed beliefs on this
subject. My thing was show me on paper where it exist,
not that it's a bad idea, we have had a few camps
burned out over the years. So if anybody can give me a
place to look these up I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Lost in paperwork |
| 05/17 |
Fireguy,
I e-mailed the Snake River IHC Superintendent to see if they still had
openings earlier today. He told me that he IS looking for an experienced
person to fill a crew member position, but the only way he can pick anyone
up at this time would be to detail a current federal employee. You can get
the phone numbers and email information at
www.fs.fed.us/fire/fire_new/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html
CB |
| 05/17 |
There is a vacancy for a LEAD HELITACK CREWPERSON, GS-462-5/6 in the
Black
Hills of South Dakota. The position is with the National Park Service, but
it primarily works on an interagency helitack crew at Custer, SD. It is a
career seasonal (subject to furlough) position, normally funded for 13 pay
periods (26 weeks) each year. The Black Hills is a great area with a lot
of fire activity. The vacancy announcement will be open until the position
is filled, but the first cut-off date for applications to be received is
May 21. For more information, check USA jobs at
http://jsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/ftva.asp?OPMControl=ID2675
or contact
bill_gabbert@nps.gov
The Jobs page,
Job Series 0462 and 0455
Pages are updated. Ab. |
| 05/17 |
Greetings All,
This last topic has prompted me to turn off the lurk mode and post a
reply. On the issue of burning filter elements my suggestion would be to
add a cyclonic pre-cleaner. It will filter substantially more than a
screen and will greatly improve the life of your current filter element
which means better air flow to the motor. I know that Enginaire
pre-cleaners (www.enginaire.com/) were spec'd on all the Unimog engines in
use with the BLM & USFS - and I had good results from mine last
season.
Stay Safe,
UNIMOG1201 |
| 05/17 |
Firescribe,
Boy have you said a mouth full, I am currently in the SW and we are
expecting more dry lighting for Saturday, it should be interesting.
SoCal,
I know what you mean about the CDF or LA County Crews, I have talked to
alot of those guys over the winter time, some of the guys were honest and
others tried to hide it. I would probably give one of them a chance. As
for your application experience, here is one for you, "I worked as a
sandwich artist".
Stay safe everyone, R-3 is looking for people to come out.
An-R5er |
| 05/17 |
Does anyone know if the Snake River Valley hotshots are still hiring or
need
detailers??? I've spent a few years on a shot crew and currently work as a
Crew Leader on a Heavy Engine....I'd love to get back on a GOOD shot crew.
Thanks for the info.
Fireguy |
| 05/16 |
FireBill -
In response to your question about air filters catching fire (5/14), I
do have quite a bit of experience with this problem. There have been
several agencies plagued by this problem in recent years, and it's a
costly one. From my observations, most if not all of the engines involved
were in wildland urban interface situations (structure protection). This
basically puts the apparatus at the head of the fire.
Most of the fires that this has happened on have been wind driven
(Santa-Ana) type events producing a lot of fire brands. The only fix that
we have come up with is to put 1/8 - 1/16 fine mesh metal screening on the
outside if the air-intake. This hopefully will catch most of the embers
entering the air duct. This also does not restrict the air flow.
There are long term fixes being looked at. I have heard that K&N
filters is being asked to produce a filter that would suit the fire
service needs, although I can't confirm this. There are also other vendors
that already have products to prevent this, but to my knowledge they are
for only type I engines.
In addition, it has not been just the air cleaner that has destroyed an
engine. On the Viejas Fire (Jan-2001), a local government type I engine
was destroyed because of an ember that had got underneath the cab of the
engine catching the plastic insulation for the wiring on fire. The
firefighters could not raise the cab to extinguish it because it was
electrical. Needless to say despite their best efforts, the engine's cab
was destroyed. I don't know what the answer is to that one.
I hope this suits your needs.
CAP |
| 05/16 |
Aussie CFU,
I thought everyone Downunder had firefighting experience. Sure you're not
reeeeeeeeally a firefighter?
I, for one, am looking forward to hearing more about your system, your
problems and issues, how you're funded, your chain-of-command when working
with civilian volunteers with household tools. Seems like safety,
training, and gear would be big issues. I'm just picturing The Australian
PUBLIC in shorts and tennis shoes as the fire front roars in, blithely
wielding their garden hoses. Do they know enough to stay safe? Many
interface residents in CA do not.
(Out of curiosity, what time is it there? Must go ask Jeeves. When is your
most active fire season? the fall?)
As we say here, Be Safe.
Tahoe Terrie |
| 05/16 |
Some more budget talk.
Funding for fire for the Forest Service is going to be
another problem this year. Last year, FS fire
overspent, and to make up for it national management
robbed WCF money intended for purchasing fleet
vehicles. The fleet manager reduced vehicles and had
to hold off on receiving new vehicles. Lately FS fire
people were scouring the shop yards looking for rigs
for the summer, not enough to cover their needs.
This summer the word is to take the budget for the FS
fourth quarter to cover fire expenses. Heard this from
a contracting officer. The usual method for most FS
departments is to be conservative with their budget
until the fourth quarter then buy your supplies for
the next year. This is to avoid overspending your
budget early.
Not this year, so I recommend the FS people spend
their budget early to avoid losing it. There also has
been quite a stir about the 30% reduction of the FS
budget in the fiscal year 2005. This is going to
affect all departments including fire. The FS will
just have to do less with less. It is not looking good.
COMT |
| 05/16 |
"Todd's" list of Interface watchouts is one of the many in the
Incident Response Pocket Guide (PMS 461/NFES 1077) available thru PMS at
NIFC: a "Must Have" tool for firefighters at all levels, and
only $2.27 each.
Mollysboy |
| 05/16 |
As many of us were busy hiring folks today.... one captain called me
over to look at someones application.
The application looked O.K. but with little related experience except
backpacking and outdoor experience. The other Captain then asked me to
look at a particular sentence. The sentence read ... "Longest time
without a shower: 30 days". I thought, "wow, thats the first
time anyone has used that as a selling point".
I have to put this as one of the 5 most hilarious things I've ever seen on
someones application. The funny thing is, stinky is probably going to be
offered a job because his application was complete and honest. Has anyone
noticed the "I worked for CDF or LA County FD... I got paid
$1.00/hr". ... no mention of CDC or CYA time? Don't get me wrong, I
am not against hiring ex- CYA and CDC folks... just against hiding it in a
cloudy mess on the application.
Stinky, if you get the job, please shower on a regular basis.
SoCalCapt |
| 05/15 |
Firescribe note:
After yesterday's dry lightning pass, the Southwest is spooling up:
www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/webdaily/swaintnn.htm |
| 05/15 |
Dear Ab,
Here is the first post of the three that I intend to make. What do you
think? If it is too long then please cut/snip/edit what you think should
be and then post it. For the time being I would like to sign off as "Aussie
CFU". It seems quite relevant to now post this after seeing
Todd's post.
Okay, you have just arrived from interstate and your first deployment
is to some suburb that bulges 3 miles into a national park and you can see
that towering pall of thick black smoke. The flames are visible from 2
miles away. The fire is burning in the crown of the eucalyptus trees. It
is 95 degrees F, humidity is 0%, no rain for 3 weeks, fuel loads are at a
7 year high. Already there are at least a 10 helicopters water bombing.
There are fires all over the state. Total fire bans have been in place for
the whole state for a week now. Some 10,000 people are working on over 120
fires. As you drive into the suburb you notice that some houses have funny
little signs with the letters SWS printed on them. Most of the streets on
the edge of the suburb point into the forest. All up some 67 trucks and
600 crew members will be deployed during the next 4 hours. You locate the
nearest hydrant to your assigned location and hook up. You then run 2
hoses into the nearest properties and wait. The residents are all out
there in their gardens hosing down everything that can burn. You tell your
crew to help and start pumping water but notice that the pressure is
lousy.
The fire is approaching and spot fires begin to flare up. It is all
starting to happen as the fire front arrives. The pressure from the mains
begins to drop and you do some quick mental calculations (30 trucks, at
this time and more arriving every minute 30 x 200 gallons per min = 6000
gallons per minute drawing water from a 12in main, as well as about 400
houses, all with garden hoses and sprinkler system running) adds up to....
not enough water. The pressure continues to fall and soon you can hear
shouts for more water as the mains run dry. You switch to the truck's 1000
gallon tank but know that will last 10 minutes, max. You know that you are
going to start to see houses burn. Now what?
Over the command radio comes the word to draft from the backyard pools.
You look frantically around. How do you figure out which houses have a
pool? One of residents comes over and says they have a static water supply
program. Just look for the house marked with a SWS sign and there will be
a pond, pool or spa that you can draft water from. You uncouple from the
useless hydrant, as you recall your crews and move your truck to the
nearest house with an SWS sign and draft from a 10,000 gallon pool. The
house next door also has an SWS sign so you send your portable pump over.
The fire front moves on and, as you pack up, you look at the burnt forest
and scorched houses and you think that you were lucky, as things would
have gotten really bad with no water. Turns out that over 400 homes were
threatened but none were lost.
What do you think of the above scenario? (Yeah some parts of it are cr%p
but that is because I have no experience in fighting fires so please allow
some poetic license.) The answer is that it actually works... so read on.
Static Water Supply
The Static Water Supply ( SWS ) concept used in Australia is to let fire
fighters know where there is a safe and reliable source of water that they
can either draft from or use a portable pump to fight fires with, where
there is little or no water, poor pressure or simply the water mains are
too small to provide the quantity of water needed. The project was started
in Australia by the New South Wales Fire Brigades and was deemed an
outstanding success during the recent Dec / Jan bush fires.
 |
If the home owner decides to participate in the
program then they put a standard sign out the front of their
property. NSW has adopted a vertical rectangular format ( approx.
3in wide by 8in high ) made from white engineer grade reflective
sheeting as the background with transparent blue letters mounted on
a piece of 1/8th inch thick aluminium. They are given away for free. |
There are two levels to this programme.
Unofficial ? This is where the home owners just stick the sign up out
front and if the brigades need water and they see the sign, then they can
just grab it.
Official ? This is where details of the water are lodged with the local
station and can then be listed as a resource, put onto maps, crews can be
directed to by local commands, etc.
Either way in most cases, for Sydney, the water would be from pools.
Besides which, if you have one of these out front with a fire coming and
the brigades arrive they are more likely to set up at a house with a pool
than without one. From asking a few of the fire fighters who were at my
place they say that the average pool (8,000 to 10,000 gallons) will take
about 45 minutes to drain using one of their portable pumps. Additionally
there is no reason why dams or large ponds can't be used for those semi
rural or rural properties.
The standing offer is that once things quiet down they the brigade will
come back and fill your pool from the mains so you don't get charged for
it.
More information is available at the website below.
www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?pageid=3278&navid=
Aussie CFU
Thanks Aussie CFU. (CFU = Community Fire Unit) Very interesting. Ab. |
| 05/15 |
Here are some Wildland/Urban Interface Watchout Situations I found
helpful while down south this last week:
1. Wooden construction and/or wood shake roofs.
2. Poor access and narrow one-way roads.
3. Inadequate water supply.
4. Natural fuels within 30 feet of structures.
5. Extreme fire behavior.
6. Strong winds.
7. Problems with evacuating the public, panic or determination to stay in
unsafe conditions.
8. Structures located in flashy fuels on steep slopes, in box canyons or
chimneys.
9. Bridge load limits.
Todd |
| 05/15 |
In response to L.A.V.E
No rumors yet on the staffing levels this summer. But in response to Ab's
statement on feeding the crews, CDF did loose their contract with safeway,
and I really haven't heard if they have got it back or not. It's getting
hot here in NorCal and we are starting to hire seasonals.
C.D. |
| 05/15 |
From Firescribe:
Flathead
MT County Officials to sue the Forest Service |
| 05/15 |
LAVE
I have been talking with my CDF buddies and here is what I have heard.
Last year CDF staffed their wildland engine with 4-person crews across the
state. Thanks to "GUBENOR" Grey-Out Davis and the energy mess he
allowed to happen the state is 24.6 BILLION DOLLARS in the red. He said
yesterday that his priorities were "education, public safety, and no
new taxes".
However, this year CDF will only be staffing their engines with 3
firefighters, and there looks like, regardless how bad the season is,
there will probably not be augmented staffing like in years past. There
are a lot of CDF seasonal firefighters who aren't going to have a job this
season and are not aware of it. I heard that if augmentation happens this
year then it will probably be for Southern California only.
But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. CDF evidently has a lot
of people who are retiring this year, a lot of people who are going over
to local government FDs (better pay, hours, and benefits) and there are
expected to be a lot of promotions and new openings but it's unknown how
this will be affected by the budget crisis. We have a guy at my work who
left CDF to work for the Feds because they couldn't offer him a permanent
slot, and it looks like he may now get it later this season.
For those who don't know, our idiot governor started this fiscal year
with a 9 Billion Dollar surplus, got sucked up in the Enron Mess, and
brought the state to 24.6 Billion Dollar Deficit. It's a bad situation all
the way around because there are local governments who don't know how the
budget crisis will affect their operating budgets (ie when the State is
short on money they try to reduce the funding to local governments). The
Feds are on the last year of the $1.6 Billion supplement and its unknown
if that money will be given back to the Feds for the next 3 years with the
War on Terror going on.
MOC4546
Ab heard last night via a state news feed that the deficit is now
projected to be 27billion and Davis is planning to raise taxes. |
| 05/15 |
Wonder how CDF and local fire departments will fare with the money woes?
I wonder if all the seasonal firefighters that are needed will be hired or
will they try to do some kind of pick up program when things get HOT?
Anyone out there with CDF have any good rumors? Will the local government
agencies be asked to pick up more of the "slack" when the poop
hits the props? (I'm not bad mouthing CDF fire people, I just wonder about
the bean counters that seem to run everything nowadays.) Just wondering
since Southern Cal. has had a couple of good fires lately and things look,
well HOT.
Be safe and sane on the fire lines!
L.A.V.E.
I heard they're having trouble trying to figure our how to feed
their crews. Is there any substance to that rumor? Perhaps one of the CDF
BCs can fill us in. Remember, Folks, when budgets get really tight the
rumors start flying. Ab. |
| 05/15 |
Folks;
Here's a bite-sized chunk from NASA on the role of biomass burning in
climate change:
http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/biomass_burn/biomass_burn.html
Here's the same thing in an expanded version from the UN: www.unep.org/geo2000/english/0040.htm
I wonder how many SUVs you could drive and for how long by knocking off
one large fire as if it never existed.
For satellite pix, go to Earth Observatory, which is killing the
competition in the Webby Awards for best in science category. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/
John |
| 05/15 |
Contractor Redcards:
I work for a contractor in Oregon and am already carded, still N.W.S.A.
training and still carded by the O.F.C.A. Haven't heard anything about
problems with them.
The Real COYOTE
So we have two coyotes, maybe three? Yeah, you are real alright, and
the first. Ab. |
| 05/15 |
Ab,
Just a few comments about who is supposed to sign red cards.
The USFS the task is assigned to the Forest Supervisor (or his delegate)
except for those on type 1 teams in operations section, then the cards go
the
Region Office for the Regional Director to sign, as per 5109.17.
The WA DNR, the authority to sign red cards from Crew Boss down is
delegated
to the Assist. Region Manager and anything above CRWB is signed in
Olympia. I
sure hope the folks at SLICC (spelling?) have written direction to sign
for
the "boss".
As far as red cards for contractors, in R-6, they do not get issued red
cards
from the state (Oregon or Washington). As per agreement with the
contractors
associations, the associations will train and certify the employees of the
contractors with a laminated picture ID with qualifications on the back.
Now
some of the contractors may be printing the quals card on red paper but
that
does not make it a "red card."
One more change of note, there will be an increased emphasis on current
red
cards this summer. In R-6 the teams have been instructed to have every
ones
red card examine by the status check in recorder. If the card is out of
date,
or does not have the correct quals listed for the job at hand the person
will
be placed in a position they are qualified for or sent home. If I remember
correctly there was an article posted somewhere about a contractor in
Oregon
who gave cards to employees that were altered. Due to that little
incident,
you can be sure all contractor issued certifications will be looked at
twice
or more. If any thing suspicious if found it is more than likely the
entire
crew will be sent home.
wp
Just put up a link and info for the National Wildfire Suppression
Assn on the Classifieds Page.
Their name has come up on theysaid on more than one occasion. Check 'em
out. Check out our other folks advertising here also. Ab. |
| 05/14 |
Ab,
Heard on the news today that a fatal accident on I-80 east of Reno was
caused by a drunk driver that had California Firefighter license plates. A
mother and 3 small children were killed and several more are in critical
condition at Washoe Med. The drunk driver walked away with no injuries.
Ab, it's things like this that just make me sick. If you insist on flying
your colors off duty, do so responsibly. It is bad enough that someone in
our profession would be involved in something like this but to represent
us all with a statement like the plates and commit a crime like this is
sickening. I think some believe those plates give them license to act
above the law. I've got to sign off before I really start to rant.
Coyote
Here's the story: Reno
Gazette Journal. Another article said his agency was unknown. This Ab
adds, "Firefighters don't let firefighter brothers and sisters drive
drunk." |
| 05/14 |
Hey Ab,
Some discussion lately in my community about all youth doing 2 yr of
service for the US, if not the military then in fire or law enforcement,
etc, etc. Smoke Chaser by Warren Yahr mentioned Conscientious Objectors
during WW II years smokejumping and fighting fire. I found this
interesting article on the subject.
'Peace Jumpers' Fought Forest Fires Instead of Soldiers (1944): washingtonpost.com
Sign me: Firefighter who believes in service
Smoke Chaser is available on Amazon. If interested, please go
to our Books page and enter Amazon
through the portal there. Purchases of books or other products that you
make after entering through our portal gives us a small
"commission" and it helps pay our bills. Ab. |
| 05/14 |
Hey Ab and all you ECC Folks out there:
I just want to say THANKS to ECC PERSONNEL everywhere for what you GUYS
and GALS do each and every day to make our lives in the field better! We
think it's crazy on the ground. It's 10 times more crazy in dispatch. You
dispatchers make a difference! Keep up the good work!
Groundpounder |
| 05/14 |
Ab,
It is my understanding that contractors will no longer be able to issue
red
cards unless they have an MOU with PNWCG. Does any one know or foresee
what problems will arise this year with contractor issued red cards? Just
wanted to predict what is going to happen so we can try to mitigate the
issues.
Any help or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks
AJ |
| 05/14 |
Question on firefighter fatalities:
Have any FF's been killed on a wildfire that was accidentally set,
campfires/fireworks etc.?
And if so what were the consequences to the guilty party?
Thanks
Hope all is well where the earthquakes happen.
Mark |
| 05/14 |
I see the Govt is working right along at their usual snails pace from
the "Memo" put out by NIFC concerning the changing of flagging
from Lime Green to Hot Pink. Not sure what "Rocket Scientist"
came up with the original idea to begin with several years ago. Has been
so long ago I don't even remember how many years; but think it was in the
mid-90's when the first "Memo" came out of R-6 about using
"Lime Green". We tried it on a fire and the relief crew that
went in the next day to take over the fire from IA found the the first
ribbon at the road, then found no more after an extensive 2 hour grid
search. Gave instructions to go back to "Hot Pink" and fired off
a letter to R-6 Fire Management. As usual, it went nowhere.
Glad to see wiser heads have finally prevailed!
Firehorse |
| 05/14 |
I saw something recently, but only in passing, about some engines being
burned up due to sucking an ember into the air cleaner and starting an
engine fire, usually destroying the engine.
Anyone have any experience with this, seen it, heard about it with more
fact
than anecdote? I'd be anxious to know a little more about it and what
agencies did to prevent a reoccurrence.
Thanks in advance, gang.
~FireBill |
| 05/13 |
Here's the MEMO from NIFC on
escape route and safety zone flagging.
DF |
| 05/13 |
fed fire backpay update:
Looks like NFC has started the process of paying on fire backpay for
round
2. Some of you may have noticed a separate deposit that you received in
PP07 (it will come as a separate deposit, not lumped with your salary
checks). According to the RO, NFC is processing these payments in social
security number order, so if you hear of someone who has received theirs
and
you haven't, this may explain why not. A letter from the WO is supposed to
be sent out sometime soon with further information. That's about all we
know at this point.
Chris |
| 05/13 |
Jake &
MNM561 &
others:
The crews that do most of the IA are already on engines or a Type 1 or 2
team that have been pre-qualified so to speak. In the Fire Service it will
be up to each agency to ensure their people are certified to fight fire
within their own jurisdiction or for when they travel.
Even though there have been some issues with cards in the State or Federal
side; most problems arise in the Fire Service or Contractors.
The reason for this problem is usually a lack of education or a lack of
understanding the system. I spend a lot of time educating department
leaders who have never dealt with redcards. As stated before WADNR will be
checking the cards for the 02' date on them when you check into the fire
after IA.
I applaud this move, since I do not want to be working with or working
next to crews or individuals who may cause safety problems at crucial
times.
We're all watchdogs and we'll watch up and down the chain.
sfirelake |
| 05/12 |
Hey ab,
I haven't posted in a while so I thought I would send word from the bizaro
world of wildland fire -- Florida.
Things have been quiet much later into the year than the last three years.
We kinda expect the lightning to start within a few weeks so things will
break loose. It is still really dry here. The kbdi for our area is
around 610 or more.
I'm carded again this year, so maybe if we aren't gettin our bums kicked
like last year I will be able to go when the western call comes in.
That's about it.
Everybody remember, the first and last person concerned for your safety is
you. Keep your heads up out there, and if a florida crew comes in with
their @ss's in the dirt because of the elevation just cut us some slack,
we
have to take turns using disney's magic mountain to train.
Flash |
| 05/12 |
Greetings,
To help point you in the right direction for redcard signatures. My agency
(WA State DNR) used to have it done by the regional Fire Protection
Forester. But last year that task was reassigned to our dispatch Central
Washington Interagency Communications Center or something like is commonly
known as CWICC (Pronounced swick) in Wenatchee. This was the logical move
since they also keep track of our agency training records.
I've not heard anything of the new policy about checking redcard since
i've not returned yet for the season. I imagine it depends on who you work
for and the like, a good resource might be to check your local dispatch
fire center, local State agency (eg CDF, ODF), Regional FS office, or
NIFC. Good luck with the search.
Also one thing I strongly recommend is to get a copy of your training
records and check to see that it is current and Accurate, Especially if
you are in fire for a state or govt. agency and a local fire department
and go to wildland classes under your Fire department's name. This
happened to me and was worth the time to track down and have current
records.
MNM561 |
| 05/12 |
"CDF Mike" said, in response to my posting about the trend in
the average
size of fires over the last 40 years: "Except that I would point out
that
when he and I started, circa 1969, Hand Crews were not using chainsaws,
and
chainsaws seem to me to be vastly superior to brush hooks."
Here on They Said It, we seem to be very interested in WHEN tools first
appeared on the wildland fire scene (see the "Inquiring Minds Want to
Know"
page at http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk.htm) I was using a chain
saw, a Homelite Super XL, on fires in 1968 and was a sawyer on a southern
California Hot Shot Crew in 1970 using the same model of chain saw. Other
hot shot crews were also using them during that period. I believe it was
5,
10, or 15 years after that date that CDF inmate crews were given chain
saws.
And, if anyone wonders where I got the statistics for the chart that
accompanied my earlier post, the number of fires and total acres per year
came from the NIFC web site at
www.nifc.gov/stats/wildlandfirestats.html
I did the math (using
Excel) to compute the average annual acres, and used the "trend
line"
feature of Excel to show the linear regression lines.
Be careful out there!
Jackson |
| 05/12 |
On increased fire numbers and increased acreage .... how many of you
have read the Rains Report? This addresses fire cost more than size, but
it also deals with why and how large fires get large. If you can wade
through the agency/political language in the report, there's actually some
enlightening content in it.
Rains Report
kelly |
| 05/12 |
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
~.~.~Happy Mother's Day~.~.~.~.~Happy
Mother's Day~.~.~.~.~Happy Mother's Day~.~.~
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
Here's to our moms and all moms everywhere! |
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