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05/31	Ab, Cheryl and Pyrodactyl, Thanks so much! The books are in our system, and we'll have a look at them. -- Judy
05/31	Rogue Rivers: In answer to your question of me ("Are you ready for that"): Yeah. 23
05/31	To Judy re. Oregon Novel - How about 'Heckletooth 3' by David Shetzline? Published in 1969. Loosely set in the Oakridge area of the Willamette NF. Out of print but I got it recently with a search through Barnes and Noble's website. I first read it years ago when I worked on the Willamette, long story about how the book got lost/stolen on a big project fire. Anyhow it's a good read for anyone who has ever fought fire, burned slash, hunted elk in the Northwest. Pyrodactyl
05/31	Judy, about the Oregon fire book you're looking for Did you check out Epitaph for the Giants on the FireBooks page? I don't know when it was published, but it could be the one. Cheryl
05/31	From Firescribe, another good from-the-ground article from Judd Slivka on the Bullock Fire in AZ: www.arizonarepublic.com
05/31	morning ab, this was in the corner of my local squeal sheet this morning, not online yet, so i copied it for you. yakima, wash. eleven u.s. forest service employees should be disciplined for their actions during the deadly thirty mile fire last summer in the north cascades, a multiagency review team recommended thursday. the proposed punishments range from losing their jobs with the forest service, to being placed on leave without pay, to a letter of reprimand in their personnel files. the eleven employees have three weeks to review and respond to the proposed punishments, and the response would then be taken into account when a final decision is made. a forest service investigation after the fire concluded that fire bosses and managers broke basic safety rules of firefighting and disregarded numerous warning signs of danger. donna, dozer support
05/31	OK:  here is the poop for R-6  2-1 rest period will BE the rule UNLESS there is specific reason to exceed the 16 hr duty RULE AND DOCUMENTED and APPROVED by the IC IT STARTS when you start your duty day STARTS ( 0900- fire at 1600 work till 0200) YOU DONT COME TO WORK TILL - 8 1/2 hrs of rest.............. You are the answer to SAFETY..... IMMATERIAL OF HOW MANY HRS OF OF OVER THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR RR
05/30	A hiring freeze is in effect for CDF. We had an exemption from this up to now. From this point forward, unsure of how things will proceed. Have heard everything from position cuts to individual exemptions for positions that then can be filled. If you are on this list, you will be offered a position with CDF eventually once this is all sorted out. If your goal is to go CDF, don't be picky, and take the first offer you get. As an open list candidate, you are limited to three waivers. After that you are taken off the list. To limit offers in undesirable areas, only go active for the units you would like to work in rather than being active "statewide." It's getting ugly, with the minimum wage ruling yesterday. I think it is political posturing to get the legislature to do their jobs. In the past, only vendors doing business with the state were hurt. Now with state employees impacted, I predict a result much more quickly than before. We will see. "Another CDF BC"
05/30	As this phase of the work at Ground Zero in New York City ends, we invite all to take a moment and reflect on what we've lost - and what we've gained - since September 11. A moment of silence... Photos of Ground Zero, the Pentagon and descriptions of the support of the Interagency Incident Management Teams who went to help can be found in the following places: Our Ground Zero Photo Page California Interagency Incident Management Team3 at the Pentagon Pacific Northwest Team3, World Trade Center Support (The Bateman Team site appears to have disappeared, perhaps because of the fires burning in R3. Can anyone update or explain? There were some historically important slide shows at this site.) On another note, there's a post on FamilySaid. Welcome, fire family members. Ab.
05/30	This question is directed to CDF personnel in-the-know. Does anyone have any further information about a hiring freeze for the State of Calif., specifically the CDF? I was just notified by letter that I had passed the examination for the Fire Captain and that I am now on the eligible list. I am one of the 60 from outside the agency who made it through the process and exam. I would really appreciate any reliable news concerning the freeze. I would also like to know what the process usually is from this point forward? Thanks much R5 Engine Slug
05/30	BLM Bob, no high horse for me.. just safety in mind....we've probably hit the point that we must just agree to disagree... and let the topic die until some official guidance comes out. BLM Bob, I'm here to learn, as are many of the WLF.com folks are... we're just a little cloudy on some things.. and work:rest is one of them. My interpretation of work rest guidelines and yours seems to be like comparing apples and oranges... They both fit into the same box.. but there are distinct differences... The interagency guidance you refer to in 12.7-1 (for USFS folks FSH 5109.34) is for shifts in excess of 16 hours... It doesnt relate to the 2:1 anywhere that I can see in the text (other than the fact its in the same sub-heading), only to shifts exceeding 16 hours. After the first operational period... even if it exceeds 16 hours... adequate rest should be provided. The folks involved in Thirty Mile were either in their rest period following the "first operational period" or didn't have any rest following mobilization. And if everything does go well after the first operational period, how does a firefighter make up the sleep deficit from the first operational period? ... if it goes for a week or two and they only got a max of 5 hours of rest from the first shift and then go straight into 16 hours of work and 8 hours of rest?... The Military has some good studies on sleep deficits and their effects.... A stress psychologist might be a good one to give some input on this one.... Rogue Rivers
05/30	Could you help me identify an older novel for one of my library borrowers? It was a book about an Oregon forest fire published around 1960. (It's supposed to have been written by a student of Ken Kesey, but that's not much help as a clue.) I have found several titles about Oregon forest fires, but none published at that time. Thanks for any advice or referral. Judy <snip>, Reference Coordinator Mountain-Valley Library System Sacramento CA
05/30	Rogue Rivers andd SoCalCapt, Don't go getting up on a high horse about this. Go back and carefully read what I wrote. The interagency guidance refers to 2:1 AFTER the first op period. I'm not sure why you are overlooking that, but those are the guidelines and no one here suggested breaking them. The Forest Service isn't different from the BLM on this. BLM Bob
05/30	Ab, Just returned last week from my first trip to Italy. The most interesting thing I saw was a swamp fire on one of the islands of Venice. Fire boats were used to wet down the few buildings threatened while a helicopter with a bambi bucket attempted to pinch off the running fire. No ground crews so even though the water run was short 60%-70% of the line hit each run had reignited by the time the helicopter returned. It took forever to pinch that fire off. I was chastised by the rest of my friends for sitting at an outdoor restaurant and having a beer (ok several) and watching this fire across the bay for hours with all this "culture" everywhere around me. I just sent them on their way and enjoyed my beer with this dumb smile on my face thinking "what a nice break from culture". I managed to find the "firehouse" the next day and spoke to some of the firefighters. They were very interested in forest fires in the US but had a hard time understanding the problem of controlling them or how thousands of acres could be burning at once. Of course Italy's forests are very actively managed and from what I saw had been for hundreds (possibly thousands) of years. Small tracts of selectively harvested and trimmed trees were all I saw from the Cinque Terre to Venice. Tile roofs...stone or masonry walls on the urban interface and very little in the way of fuels on the forest floor. Anything bigger than your thumb had been picked up for firewood and sold or used by locals. About the only thing I saw that could have gotten a large fire going were the huge tracts of olive trees interplanted with grains...and it appeared that farmers had cut firebreaks around each of their fields and disked them to dirt to compartmentalize any fire that started. Patrick, Contact me and I will see if I can help you. It may be too late to get the required safety refresher course though. Without that...no red card. You may be able to get part time employment with the MN DNR as they are pretty short handed...with good cause. MNFF, I suspect that the MN DNR will keep some "emergency firefighters" on duty most of the summer so they don't all disappear like last year...and of course they are keeping the full time seasonal positions on all summer. Are you looking for work? Dana Linscott linscott@rea-alp.com Vice chair Minnesota Wildland Firefighters' Assn.
05/29	23, "If a couple extra hours will catch a fire you're probably better off doing it."... from your earlier post. My hindered view (not familiar with AFS) is: What if, during those last couple of hours trying to catch a fire, someone makes some bad judgments and gets hurt or worse yet.. killed, because of fatigue? What if an act of "nature" happens and a tree falls and hurts someone. What if... ANY type of injury or worse yet, a fatality occurs... from chainsaw cuts to entrapments.... The IC may "document" the reasons for continuing.... But the mere appearance of fatigue will be the haunting of the fire.... And a key point in the investigation. Are you ready for that? Rogue Rivers
05/29	There's a pretty good discussion regarding the work rest guidelines going on... I thought I'd add my thoughts..... In the Forest Service, we received a letter from the very Top that said we would ADHERE to the work rest guidelines. That makes it policy for all of us USFS folks as far as I understand. In California and abroad, our California Incident Management teams actively use the work rest guidelines while managing incidents. It does happen that folks work over 16 hours in a shift... sometimes a whole lot more. The excessive shifts are documented and approved by the IC... and then the crew is rested according to the 2:1 Work/Rest ratio. Here's an example: Crew 999 worked 19 hours completing a burnout that was critical. They return to camp. They are advised that they will be off duty for 9.5 hours before they are returned to the fire line. A special briefing is held for them before they return to the fireline. Bob, the Interagency Incident Business Management Handbook does spell out the requirement for the Agency Administrator or IC to approve all shifts in excess of 16 hours... but I dont think it gives them power to not meet the 2:1 work/rest guidelines. Maybe BLM is different. Just my thoughts... SoCalCapt
05/29	Well, just as things were going to get interesting, word through the CDF channels is that the Gov has lifted our exemption from the state hiring freeze. CDF can not hire for now. This occurs with a tremendous amount of vacancies in fire protection. Interesting times ahead. Get ready for OT and no days off. Coming up..... No Budget No Spending No Hiring Maybe no paycheck Another CDF BC Work/Rest Guidelines? Ab.
05/29	Rogue Rivers, All federal agencies use the 2:1 work-rest guidelines. Key word: guidelines, more on that in a bit. Get a copy of the Fire Business Mgmt Handbook and read 12.7-1 Work/Rest Guidelines: www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/iibmhb2.pdf (Warning - huge file) It sez: "12.7-1 -Work/Rest Guidelines. To maintain safe, productive incident activities, incident management personnel must appropriately manage work and rest periods, assignment duration, and shift length for crews, overhead personnel, and support personnel. Plan for and ensure that crews, overhead personnel, and support personnel are provided a 2 to 1 work to rest ratio (for every 2 hours of work or travel, provide 1 hour of sleep and/or rest). The Incident Commander or Agency Administrator shall document, approve, and include in the daily incident records, the justification for work shifts exceeding 16 hours, including travel time, after the first operational period." Note what it says about ICs approving shifts greater than 16 hours, and also "after the first operational period." Now, as to your questions: A-175 The Milepost Fire - they're showing 8 1/2 hours off duty, at least by my math. No problems there, right? A-215 Dawg Fire: It's an initial attack, and Alaska Fire Service (AFS) has a Work Rest Policy that states : "The first operational period will be limited to a maximum of 19 hours with a minimum of five hours rest before beginning the next operational period. Each subsequent operational period will be no longer than 16 hours with a minimum of eight hours rest in between." That is interpreted as a standing justification for the first shift of initial attack exceeding 16 hours, which is in line with the Fire Business Mgmt Handbook. On the Dawg Fire, they got 6 hours off, now they would be expected not to exceed 16 hours per shift. Right now, because of the Forest Service's (Note that AFS is basically a BLM outfit) 30 Mile fire action plan, there are a lot of rumors and misconceptions about work/rest ratios. The Fire Business Mgmt Handbook sets the baseline. Units may set more stringent guidelines, but so far, no one that I'm aware of has done that in writing. So, what you read in the AFS Sit Report meets the official guidance. BLM Bob
05/29	Rogue Rivers: In AK we run our first operational period on a fire up to 19 hours; 16's after that. Due to the remote characteristic of many of our fires we are not able to staff at Lower 48 levels (airplanes cost $). Our folks are very cognizant of the 2:1 ratio. Bottom line: IC makes the call & must justify (in writing) anything over 16 after the first operational period. If a couple extra hours will catch a fire you're probably better off doing it. 23
05/29	Hi, Anyone from Minnesota, is the DNR going to keep smokechasers on for most of the summer this year? thanks stay safe, MNFF
05/29	Does anyone know if all Federal Agencies are using the 2 to 1 work rest ratio guidelines? I came across some info on two fires in Alaska that just "glared" at me. I'm not armchair quarter backing... but they just seem to stand out since they are on the Alaska GACC website.... And we have been hounded so bad about these guidelines since 30 Mile.... A-175 - "Milepost 78" Crews off duty at 2300.. on duty 0730 (IHC CREW and EFF Crews assigned) A-215 - "Dawg"..... IC+7 will bed down @ 2400 and resume activities at 0600 5/28." (Smokejumpers assigned) Rogue Rivers
05/28	AB, I am in need of information on how to get on some fires this year. I was a DNR wildland firefighter in Minnesota from 1996 to 2000. I then joined the Navy. I am currently stationed in Bremerton, WA and I would like to find an agency to fight fires with this summer. I recently participated in the annual refresher course required for my red card. I have not taken the pack test. If you have any information on how I could contact an agency or make myself more employable, please let me know. Very respectfully, Patrick
05/28	Here's an interface AZ community near the Coronado NF that's doing its best to reduce fire hazards. Mount Lemmon Fire: http://mountlemmonfire.com/Firewise%20Index.html Mellie
05/28	Ab, Nice link to the Bullock fire, with lots of pics. http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado/bullock/index.html My daughter's on this one, as are a whole bunch of others. Be safe out there. Papa
05/28	The jumper hit with a tree on the Berrago is fine, he was observed overnight and released. The liner in his hard hat broke so there was some concern for him. Berrago received very light rain Sunday with snow above 11,000 feet, Overcast with reduced temps and higher humidity Monday. Warming up with thunderstorms in the evening for the next week, showers possible. Problem areas are in the Pecos wilderness with numerous spot fires. and there I was
05/27	Any info on the firefighter that was hit by a tree on the Coronado NF? Jeb An article describing that fire just got posted to our news page. Ab.
05/27	I have a CDF aircraft safety ppt that is public domain, its 7mb though, not emailable, but I would make it available if anyone wants it. Capt 180
05/27	Ab, I just was given this link ( http://envweb.env.gov.ab.ca/env/forests/fpd/ ) for the Alberta Forest Protection web site. Thought you would be interested. RxFire Thanks RxFire. Nice site. I put it on the links page, world section. Ab.
05/27	Here is a link to some web cameras that show smoke from the Bullock fire near Tucson. The cameras are operated by the Pima County Department of Environmental Quality. http://www.airinfonow.org/html/pics.html Jackson Thanks Jackson. Thanks also to Danny who sent in a link to the web cam on the Bullock Fire. Ab.
05/27	Another CDF BC, I pulled my copy of the list to get better numbers. There are 62 outside-CDF persons on the Open list. Total number is 248 for the entire list. 1.4 persons per currently open jobs on the Promotional list and 1.9 persons per job over the entire list. That's better odds than getting a date! Rumor has it that there are plans to fast-track a new exam. Saw the lead pickle, gave him a copy of the list and directions to the uniform shop. JW
05/27	Hey everyone in the firefighting community. Down on a 2 week detail in Colorado right now as a dispatcher. Memorial day is tomorrow and I thought it would be fitting to remember those fallen comrades. The latest big fire in Colorado broke out on my desk - The Schoonover fire. Since I am from Washington (western WA at that) we don't get large fires like that, so it was real challenging and exciting to deal with one that had the momentum that one did. The IC and crews out there did a PHENOMENAL job. Pulled back to safety zones when they needed and didn't try to push it. I would like to say thanks for making my job on the other end of the radio an easier one. The winds just carried it away form them--it was REAL windy that day. I also worked in Wenatchee last year right after 30 mile, and had friends on South Canyon. Being only 28, I am still just a fire pup. I have spent time on the line with a crew and on an engine. This radio girl would like to say to everyone out there, just starting their fire season or coming back from a detail... let's be safe and watch out for each other...the fire community is very small and caring, let's keep it that way. EVERYONE BE SAFE AND HAVE A FUN EXCITING SUMMER. hugs from the radio girl :) a moment of silence for those fighting the big fire in the sky.
05/27	Hi Ab: I guess I have been lurking long enough. Fire season is just starting here in Nova Scotia Canada with a few small ones over the weekend. Our fires don't get as big as yours out west. We had one here in my fire coverage area last year that was about 80 acres and that was the second largest in the provence for last year. Most of the fires here are an acre or two. Most wildland fires are fought by volunteer fire depts with air support from Dept of Natural Resourses's 5 choppers and sometimes a rented fixed wing from either Newfoundland or Quebec when their FWI is down. Natural Resourses also supplies a few trucks and some firefighters (mostly students), they also keep a series of towers manned for the summer. I guess that's it from here. Keep safe. Dodge Good morning and welcome Dodge. Glad to have fire info from our northern neighbor. Ab.
05/26	Hey Ab I saw a couple of posts about the sigg drip torch I have to say they are nice and small and fit in your pack pretty good they also work in a jam however we sent them back because we just didn't like them because of too many parts to loose and you have add more bar oil to the mix because the fuel burns to hot so we keep it simple just pack a few drip torches. I reckon my biggest bitch is too many parts to loose. EH
05/26	The mini drip torch, "Fuel Bottle Drip Torch" officially, comes from Fireline Engineering. Contact Chris Johnson @ 760-375-3109 or Email johnsonc@ridgenet.net. They work using saw gas/oil mix, and hook right up to a Sigg Bottle; about 10 -15 minutes of firing time. A slick tool, and can be transported cleanly and safely in a red pack (without the Sigg bottle, of course!!). Mollysboy
05/26	Dear Ab, We use a few of those mini drip torches on the Roosevelt Shots that "boss" was asking about please forward my e-mail address to him . I am on days off when I go back I will pull info off the containers that they come in. Rocky Mountain p.s. They're sweet and a ton of fun to use Thanks for your input Rocky, see the above post. Ab.
05/25	Ab, Im looking for anybody who might have a power point program of the NFES 2097 Basic Aviation Safety or a similar version of this class. Any help is appreciated. Thanks Ray C.
05/25	I've been trying to locate a vender for the mini drip torches that I've heard about, have you heard of them, and w(h)ere to get them? boss
05/25	Good Morning All! Happy Memorial Day Holiday or work day, as the case may be. Be SAFE wherever you are, whether on the fireline, on the barbeque with friends and family, or on the road. Things are definitely heated up, fire-wise. Many are heading out to R3 from R5 and around the US. A post came in from NC Crew who put all capital letters in his "subject line", he was so excited to be leaving today for R3 with his crew. Unfortunately because of the caps, I deleted his post with the spam. Just wanted to let you know that he invited theysaiders, if you come across a NC Crew in firecamp, to look him up and say hi . The Jobs Page and Job Series 0462 and 0455 Pages were updated yesterday. Check the need for Hotshot Crew Bosses and Asst Crew Bosses. We're still working on the many photos that have come in. Hopefully we'll be caught up by Tuesday. Have a good'un. Ab.
05/24	Quill, >"My question is this: Is having to run up a somewhat steep, brushy hill really an escape route, knowing that fire moves more quickly uphill? " Two words - South Canyon. >"And if that's considered an escape route (and it wouldn't surprise me if it were, having once seen a 1.5 mile run through heavy canopy and litter called an escape route) does there need to be a change in thinking?" Yes. BLM Bob
05/24	Ok -- here's a question for you. When people talk about escape routes, does there need to be more of an emphasis on realistic escape routes? The scenario: 9:15 a.m., large fire burning in manzanita and Ppine. Your crew is on the west flank of the fire, which happens to be burning the hottest. This is day 2 of the fire; day 1 included several hundred acres of continuous crown fire in Ppine. ERCs are at historical highs, 1,000-hour fuels are running at <5%. Weather is clear skies, 65 degrees, upslope winds are 10-15. You are on a two-track in the wilderness which cuts a steep, manzanita slope in two, horizontally, like a belt. About 1/8 of a mile above you is another two-track. To access it , you'd have to go up the manzanita hill; a line has been cut down the hill, but it is still steep to get up there. The fire is 1/4 mile below where you stand. As you look into the basin in which it's burning, there's considerable smoke, and occasional torching. The fire has spotted to your side of the basin, about 100 yards or so below your two-track. There's good, cold black a half-mile away (but if the fire comes up, it will cut you off from that route), and a little tiny patch of hot black 200 yards away. Though the manzanita slope is covered in dry retardant from the previous day's air show, the spot fire brings forth the questions of safety zones. The designated safety zone is the two track further up the hill; thus, the escape route is straight up the hill. My question is this: Is having to run up a somewhat steep, brushy hill really an escape route, knowing that fire moves more quickly uphill? And if that's considered an escape route (and it wouldn't surprise me if it were, having once seen a 1.5 mile run through heavy canopy and litter called an escape route) does there need to be a change in thinking? Be safe folks, Quill.
05/24	Rogue Rivers and DM, I concur. However, DM, don't get the statements made by the Forest Supervisor, Sonny O'Neal, confused with "fire management on the WEF/OKF". In my opinion, that has two different meanings. Predictable, predictable, predictable!(Gordon Graham makes this case pretty well). I agree, what we do is "PREDICTABLE"! As far as I know, there is no new and innovative way to fight fire. We are doing it the same way as our predecessors. Although no two fires are exactly the same, the inherent hazards are always there, we mitigate our hazards and anchor and flank. What happened to the "keeping it simple" theory? It works! We avoid entrapments through "prevention", not after the fact. This responsibility lies on the leader of which ever module/crew, not to mention each individual firefighter. We as an agency are spending to much time and energy in creating more policy as a "reaction" to something instead of "LEADING" our people and "TEACHING" our people about how to prevent these things and mentoring our people through "on the ground" fire experiences. We need to pay attention more to our workforce. One simple rule of leadership, "If you take care of your people, they will perform to the maximum extent of their capabilities". We, as an agency, fail in this one basic rule of leadership. There has been great strides made in the arena of "human factors" training and to me, this is the "meat" of our current situation. We are not learning from our predecessors or from their/our mistakes. We need to concentrate on "testing" our people in stressful-situational training, we need to raise the bar on physical fitness standards (a fit body = a fit mind), and we need a screening process to ensure the people we put into these leadership roles are up to the task. As an agency, our workload is increasing more and more everyday and as I watch this happening, I'm watching "leaders" pay less and less attention to the people they should be leading, mentoring and challenging through "realistic" training. Can an agency hold people, such as District Fire Managers and Forest Fire Staff, accountable for not providing a crew with escape routes and safety zones? I wouldn't ever expect a Duty Officer, FMO, IHC Supt, Engine Captain, or anyone else for that matter, to identify my crews' escape routes and safety zones. If you can't take care of "your" people(your crew) and provide sound leadership, then the failure lies with "you", as well as the accountability for failing to mitigate any unsafe situations. I'm not claiming to know all the facts, I'm just stating the obvious. Hopefully when all is said and done, we as a firefighting community can stand up for what is "right" and back our fellow firefighters. We can't allow the media, politics and the agency itself to drive us away from what is fact and "morally right". Don't get me wrong, people need to be held accountable, as long as the "right" people are held accountable. I could go on and on, this whole thing upsets me. Ab's, thanks for your site. 2nd Generation IHC Supt.
05/24	Please mark your calendars for an important event on December 4-6, 2002. The IAWF, in cooperation with the International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC) and the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station, are pleased to announce "Wildfire 2002: Surviving the Interface Danger Zone." This is the first-ever national Wildland Urban Interface Conference. The conference will be held in Kansas City. Contact mcdowell@iawfonline.org to receive the pdf flyer.
05/24	Howdy fellow fire fighters. Does anybody know if there are any engine boss presentations or class that is on a power point program. seafire
05/24	JW: You have any idea why many of the names on the promotional list are duplicated on the open list? With only about 250 names on both lists combined, this is still about 100 shy of what some of our recent list sizes for promotional FC used to have. Looks like all will get an offer. The "auction" will remove many for sure. With only 60 names roughly coming outside CDF, a fair statement is made on how the economic package for this position had deteriorated in comparison to agencies and departments. PS. Good job to lead pickle. Time now to learn again how to count to 17! "Another CDF BC"
05/23	my district (in regards to not paying OT or Comp for training over base 8) does this: you are in travel status on the way to a training class that might be anywhere from 1/2 hour to 45 min. drive from your duty station. If you have to pick materials up, fuel gov. vehicles, outfit an engine for the class, its considered volunteer time. You are supposedly "covered" under workmans comp for an injury but if you wont "volunteer" your time to get things set up for a training class (in this case its ENGB) then someone else will (most likely a temp seasonal). The budget is the main concern here because the overtime will come out of this budget and thus shorten everyones season due to budget constraints. Management considers it a pissing match over a few hours, which I discovered totals nearly 6.5 hours. EEO and OPM sources say its up to the district and its an uphill battle not worth fighting (if you value your job and performance rating) I say its a huge problem considering the implications of volunteer work that involves the same type of work you would ordinarily do on the clock. Its required training after all... and Im not headed there driving my personal rig, enjoying a cigarette and some CDs. drw
05/23	We're now under a Winter Storm Warning... funny how this weather is so hot and cold. Anyway, here's a link to www.pinecam.com if you don't have it already. They are providing the most current information including pics and maps of the latest fires in the Pike Natl Forest areas. There's also a webcam that updates every 30 minutes (I think) and is usually pointed at which ever fire is the most active. Take notice of the Scanner Updates discussion area... people are listening and updating this area frequently with information they hear coming over their scanner.... interesting concept -- what do you guys think? We've been very busy this year already... everyone is a little jumpy... hopefully the snow will help. BE SAFE! g Yes, everyone, be safe. Ab.
05/23	Please see that the Washington State press has INACCUARATELY reported on the Thirtymile Administrative Review. <Ab snipped name> is currently reviewing recommendations from the Administrative Review team who completed their interviews in early May. As a precautionary measure some Okanogan and Wenatchee forest personnel were asked to "stand down" from fire operational work until decisions are made. These folks are still going to work everyday on the Oka/Wen forest - assigned to non-fire operations work. We expect more negative and/or inaccurate press to occur regarding Thirtymile. Let's be professionals - and not spread rumors that are likely untrue and painful to those involved in the tragedy. Ab Note: Until the process is done and actions are officially taken, I am pulling the link to the article from 05/20 Register Guard (OR) that was based on the Associated Press report that was based on the Yakima Herald article of a few days ago. I am told that we may not know for perhaps a year what the outcome of the legal (due) process is.
05/23	I urge readers to not assume that any of the Methow Valley FS personnel named in one of the Methow Valley News editorials are being reassigned or subject to personnel actions. AG, legal beagle
05/23	From Firescribe: CNN.com - Colorado wildfire tears through 4,000 acres www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/23/wildfires.colorado/index.html
05/23	For Those Who Are Wondering, The new CDF Fire Captain list is on the street. Here are some bullet points. -Approximately 800 employees and outside firefighters applied. -About 425 accepted for interviews. -After no-shows and not-minimually-qualified ratings the Promotional list has about 185 names and the Promotional and Open combined list has about 285 names. -Roughly 130 jobs open at this time. -Some Units will not be able to use the combined list due to the number of transfer requests and interest in available jobs. Some units will be able to use the combined list for the opposite reasons. -Normally a Promotional list has to be exhausted before an Open list is used to fill a vacancy. It is not quite clear to me when the Combined list enters the picture. -Large scale hiring should start within the next two weeks. JW
05/22	CFU or Community Fire Unit -- information about these can be seen at www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?globalid=8 Background information dated 30 December, 2001 17.30pm Sydney, New South Wales (NSW),Australia, Weather Forecast: · Today WSW winds in W half of NSW. NW elsewhere. VH/Extreme fire danger. Total Fire Bans are in place for all areas of the State. 67 aircraft will be deployed today 380,000 acres of uncontrolled or controlled fires >From NSWFB site Dec. 26,2001 Property losses include 141 homes, 19 vehicles, 40 other structures including factories, shops and sheds. One school in Waterfall has been lost. Over 8,000 firefighters are fighting fires in the Hawkesbury, Blue Mountain and the Illawarra areas today. Successful back burning conducted by fire crews last night and this morning has meant that the fire threat has eased and to some degree kept within the containment lines. There has been no property loss in the last 48 hours; however, fires are still burning in Spencer, Nattai and the Shoalhaven areas. The top temperatures, which were predicted for today, have now been revised and not expected to rise above 30 degrees, which has been a blessing for fire crews and people living in the affected areas. However, the southerly winds which were predicted yesterday have come earlier than expected and fire crews are still on extreme alert as the bushfire danger is totally dependent on the erratic weather behaviour which is still continuing to create unusual effects. Today's NSWFB commitment is: 13 fire engines Wollongong 11 fire engines Wollondilly 15 fire engines Sutherland 24 fire engines Blue Mountains 4 fire engines Penrith 1 fire engine Baulkham Hills And all other Brigade resources are on standby and to be used on request by the Rural Fire Service. (www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?sectionid=323) Please Note: Aussie Terminology Bushfire = Wildfire = Forest Fire) It was about 8:00pm Jan 1st 2002 (Happy??? New Year) and I was staring at flames that were close to 120ft tall less than 100 yards away from my house. The fire had been started by some @#$$%* arsonist that afternoon. I stood in a pair of jeans, work boots, long sleeved shirt, a respirator, leather work gloves, snow skiing goggles (better than nothing) and hardhat. The garden hoses were on the roof wetting it down and the sprinkler system, in the backyard that bordered onto the about 150 acres of National and local Gov’t parkland forest, were going full blast. My entire street is surrounded by that same forest, a typical Sydney urban/wildland interface. However I am less than 10 miles (as the crow flies from Sydney’s CBD). Looking at those flames I thought to myself, there has to be a better way to protect my house and myself. As a result of a small bush fire that an arsonist had started less than a mile away on Boxing Day, I had installed a sprinkler system to cover my backyard and parts of my neighbours' yards. (I had gazed longingly at a fire fighting gas powered pump and hose kit, as I have a swimming pool, at the irrigation placewhere I bought the sprinkler system but at $1,200, I didn’t have the money.) I had been told (by the previous owners when I moved into this house 4 years ago) that in the 1994 bushfires, which came to within 100 yards of my house, that the water mains had dried up once the Fire Brigades had connected up to them. (4in. diameter, what can I say for 50 plus houses?) With what I had, plus the expected weather forecast, it seemed that I would be just as effective if I dropped my pants and tried to put the fire out via the Boy Scout method, should the fire get past the crews on the road below. Luckily the forecasted 30 knot winds stayed away. Between that and about 20 fire trucks and crews lining a road conducting a back burn operation between the fire and I, the fire was contained. Finally about 1:20am I went to bed. But got up every hour to walk around the house and turn on the back yard sprinklers for 20 minutes to prevent embers from restarting the fires. Next morning I went for a walk along the road to check the damage to the local bushland and to ensure that there were no flare-ups. Over the next few days I saw some articles in the newspapers about some Community Fire Units (CFU). This seemed to be the answer. So after doing a bit of research on the CFUs I called a local community meeting of the houses that are in my local. I explained the concept of the CFUs and asked people to go away and consider if they wanted to participate in the CFU program. The end result is that we have about 30 people that will join and put in an application. So what is a CFU? Well, read on. (Tahoe Terrie, Sorry but at this stage I can not answer from the side of the question that you want but I will give you some insight as I move through the process.) Community Fire Units (CFU) The NSWFB (New South Wales Fire Brigades) have instituted this progamme, in response to those devastating bushfires that raged through much of NSW in 1994. The concept of a CFU is to act almost as a sort of a first aider to a bush / urban interface wildfire. They are there to do property protection and to assist in setting up for the Metro (NSWFB) and Bush (NSW Rural Fire Service). Now it is important to remember that the role of the CFU is to help set up for the NSWFB and NSWRFS, i.e. have the stem pipe installed, pump set up near a static water source See my previous post on 15.05.02), hoses laid out and members in their PPE in order to assist. The members are there to protect property and NOT to go into the burning bush/forest or into structures to fight the fire. At this time the CFUs will only operate within their assigned location (street) where they are based. If the fire arrives before the brigades do, then the CFU fights the fire with what they have. Once the fire has passed or been put out then they will also conduct mopping up and fire watch operations begin. This frees up the NSWFB & NSWRFB to move with the fire front, without leaving crewed trucks behind. In the recent fires in Dec and Jan, the CFU concept was put to the acid test in a full on state-wide emergency. It was recognised that they fulfilled their role better than expected. Much praise has been given to those CFU’s by both the NSWFB (paid} and NSWRFS {mainly volunteer} fire-fighters and their commanding officers. The extent of that praise was such that special funding ($400,000.00) is being given to the programme. At last count there have been over 70 new requests to set up new CFUs in addition to the current 150-odd active units. Each CFU is allocated the following equipment which is either stored in a locked outdoor storage cabinet or covered box trailer. CFU Equipment A stand/stem pipe to tap into the water mains, gas (petrol) powered water pump, to pump water from a pool or dam, 180m of hose (2” I think), a Y joint, two nozzles, an assortment of shovels, rakes etc., two water back packs, 1st aid kit, and some witches hats. PPE -- The members (between 6 – 12) are issued by the NSWFB with : boots, gloves, goggles, helmets, respirators, and overalls. We are given an initial 20 hours of training before we can become active and then have a minimum requirement of 20 hours p.a. to remain active (set-up cost per unit approx.$10,000.00 including training). 2/1/2002 From NSWFB site More unprecedented hot and windy conditions and a record low humidity level on New Year's Day meant Sydney's New Year started with more bushfires. Yesterday's breakout in South Tarramurra, North Epping and Pennant Hills, suspected to be deliberately lit, is still burning within containment lines today. The NSW Fire Brigades has over 400 firefighters committed to fighting those fires and at least 25 community fire units with about 400 community fire unit members who are significantly assisting bushfire operations in the Pennant Hills area. NSW Fire Brigades Superintendent Ian Krimmer says, " The early intervention and continuous work conducted by the community fire units has played a significant role and contributed to saving houses. "The community's involvement and co operation in a range of ways like being a member of a community fire unit, preparing their homes in case of a bushfire, and branding their letter boxes and fences with coloured tea towels so that our firies know they have a swimming pool has made all the difference in the number of properties that have been saved." "There were several cases yesterday where fire crews were able to go straight into homes and obtain water from pools because the Static Water Supply plates were displayed on people's homes/fences. The SWS program has certainly proved a life and property saver and can certainly be expanded to include many more areas in Sydney in the future." Superintendent Krimmer said. In addition to the NSW fire Brigade resources an extra 37 fire engines from the Rural Fire Service, National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Country Fire Authority are also committed to the outbreak in the South Turramurra area. So far the NSW Fire Brigades have the following crews committed: 30 fire engines in Turramurra 10 fire engines in Blue Mountains 12 fire engines in Wollondilly 20 fire engines in Wollongong (www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?sectionid=323) I post this information as a person who has stood on the wrong end (i.e. helpless interface home owner with little equipment to fire a wildfire) in the hope that this program will be examined, adapted (to suit US/Can. or wherever) and instituted where appropriate on the wildland/urban interface. The Australian experience has been a very positive one and has certainly helped to reduce loss of property and possibly people. Please let this be discussed as well as my previous post (15.05.02) on the concept of SWS (Static Water Supply). I will be happy to answer any question that I can or direct you to …...??? Aussie CFU Thanks Aussie CFU, again very interesting. Readers? Ab.
05/22	Ab Here's some help maybe for MOC4546. This brings up a big point with an injury during this "training." I would check your HR (Human Resource) person either in the office or at your region office and ask them what about FECA (Federal Employee Compensation Act). Would it be considered an on the job injury, will the agency cover it? Next ask them if this is compliant to FLSA Fair Labor Standards Act? Sounds really fishy with me.. My agency does not offer OT for training that is not during my scheduled work hours, usually on my on time or my boss might give me comp time. But if required to attend I think it's an auto qual for pay at least, OT might be a little tougher to find. I asked a HR prof of mine and I'll try and get you some more info. Also check www.dol.gov and look around the Department of Labor website. Hope this helps, MNM561
05/21	MOC4546 and anyone else that can tell me what a PAC test is: Let's all get on the same page and call it what it is: Work Capacity Test (WCT). There are 3 fitness levels of the WCT, a person's fire qualifications will determine which test he/she will take. You can't take one at a higher level than what your qualifications require. The first level of fitness is "Light" which is required for such jobs as Type 3 Information Officer. The test is called the "Walk Test" and involves walking one mile in 16 minutes carrying nothing. The second level of fitness is "Moderate" which is required for such jobs as Operations Section Chief and Safety Officer. This test is called the "Field Test" and involves walking two miles in 30 minutes carrying 25 pounds. The final level of fitness is "Arduous" which is required for many positions including Firefighter. This level requires the "Pack Test" which involves walking three miles in 45 minutes carrying 45 pounds. Actually I forgot one level of fitness, "none", which is required for a whole bunch of jobs, none of which involve firefighting. The FMO that is requiring a Field Exercise on top of the other basic requirements for annual firefighter certification is running a real chicken-sh*t operation. If I worked there, I would be doing my darndest to find another job somewhere else, hopefully working for someone with some common sense as well as a sense of moral values. Someone needs to call bullsh*t on this guy. Spencer
05/21	TC, The problem is can an Fire Management Office make a mandatory policy that any primary or secondary firefighter must VOLUNTEER, AT NO PAY, PROVIDING FREE LABOR, guised as a Field Exercise in order to have them eligible for off-Forest/District/Park/Reservation Fire Assignments? Can anyone from these offices say "You work for me for free on my project or I won't let you go to fires when we receive assignments". That is the issue. Many have told me that the field exercise for firefighters is not to be used as a means of free labor when an FMO does not want to pay for personnel for their project. I have worked in places where they did periodic training to test firefighter skills through the season, but not where the employees were blackmailed to work for free under the guise "Do what I say or you can't go". The firefighter is willing to go to the Field Exercise, but if her boss says "I can't send you because of other work" or "I can't pay overtime or give you Comp Time" then she gets left out because she won't perform and act of free labor. As to overtime, I got paid last year to go to a two-day class of which one day was 8 hours of overtime. There was no issues about it. I looked up where you said but could not find where it said "you have to do training for free". I know that private contractors have their employees do the training for free, and I know that secondary type-II crews also have to train for free, but this is in regard to permanent employees and seasonal federal firefighters who are being told you have to work for free in order to get your red card and go on assignments. MOC4546 What if someone gets hurt when they are doing the mandatory "volunteer" field exercise? Seems a big risk to the agency to have people who are not covered by insurance. Accidents can happen. Ab.
05/21	Hey AB, I just wanted to let folks know about the Ranger pack....I ordered one last fall and it came but it was just to big...the harness was too big all around...I am only 5'4" and small....so I loved the concept of the pack and I called the factory and talked with those guys. They told me that it was common for small people to have a hard time getting hip packs to fit properly. We discussed the possibilities and i took some measurements and we thought we could try downsizing the entire harness system...well I sent the harness back to them and they downsized it and sent it back (at no cost) and it fits perfectly!!! In fact it is like not having a pack on my back at all!!! It is great!!! all the compartments are easily reached and it holds just enough!!! Just wanted to give those guys an "Atta Boy!"" for their time and effort!! so if you are looking for a great pack...Ranger is willing to work with you to make it fit!!! Looking forward to a busy fire season! You all stay safe out there!! Firebabe NH
05/21	www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/webdaily/swaintnn.htm The Southwest is really rock'n'rollin' now. K.
05/21	Rouge Rivers, I fully concur with your post. It is sad that many in fire management on the WEF/OKF hold on to the ‘uncontrollable, unpredictable, overwhelming event" theory as the root cause to the 30 Mile tragedy. I guess many have to subscribe to this personally because to believe otherwise one would have to recognize the fact that a collective organizational failure put the elements of the tragedy into place. And also, to say it was predictable is to say it was preventable. Those are very hard things to admit to, given what resulted. If I were to believe that there are uncontrollable, unpredictable, fire behavior events waiting out there that will "overwhelm all who face" them, I must resign myself to an eventual entrapment, serious injury or worse. I will never do that, nor should anyone else. DM
05/21	Links from Firescribe: Article on new Colorado shots www.durangoherald.com Article on hotshots fighting fire in Georgia www.jacksonville.coml
05/21	MOC4546 In answer to your question, it can change from agency to agency. In the FS if you look at the 5109.17 (Incident Qualification Handbook), it states that local units can make additional policies, that are more restrictive, as long as all the requirements of 5109.17 are adhered too. On the question of overtime, it depends on the person's position, however as a general rule, overtime cannot be paid for training. The person with this problem should check with the local personnel office, to see what her exact status is. She might also try contacting the local Union to see if they can help her out. TC
05/21	Last month I posed this same question to the lurkers and readers but find I have to do it again. Today I was approached by a person who attended the Wildland Firefighter Refresher Course I gave and asked about requirements for going on fires as a secondary firefighter. I told her that she had to attend the refresher course (which she did) and pass the PAC Test (which hasn't been scheduled yet) in order to be re-certified for the Fire Season. She brought to me a memo that stated "In order for you to be eligible to go on Fire Assignment you must pass a PAC Test, attend a Refresher Course, and participate in a Field Exercise. Anyone who does not will not be sent out on assignment." The problem is the regs require only the PAC Test and the Refresher Course. The Fire Management Office is trying to force people to come in, help them prep an area for burning by cutting line all day for their project. Here's the questionable act: *Those who participate in the "Field Exercise" will not be paid overtime if its on their day off. *If the secondary firefighter cannot get the time to go because their boss needs them at work, they can't go. *The Field Exercise is only offered once. Here's the question: Can a Federal Wildland Fire Agency force an employee to attend an all-day class without being on-the-clock in order to meet this requirement? Can the FMO stop someone from being sent an assignment if the secondary firefighter's primary supervisor tells her "I can't afford the overtime and I can't let you go to the Field Exercise due to other work"? People I have polled in the Forest Service and BLM have told me that an employee cannot be forced to work for free, that NIFC regulations require only a Recert Class and PAC Test for returning firefighters, the Field Exercise is not a valid requirement for returnees, and that an FMO cannot enforce that requirement for either primary or secondary firefighters if it is not possible for them to attend. Can anyone supply me with a legal rule or department regulation that could answer this question? I need something factual or that can be demonstrated on paper that I can take and say "You can't do this!". This FMO has used this as a tactic to get free labor for project work they don't want to pay for and is being used to prevent some firefighters from being red-carded. This would not be an issue if the employees were being paid OT or if it were done during normal working hours, but this is "come work for me for free or you won't go out on fires". The people who want to go on fires don't have a problem with attending a Field Exercise if it's to evaluate their skills and if they are on-duty. None of them feel they should be threatened to be held back if they do not want to work for free. This has happened the last three years with this FMO. MOC4546
05/20	Mr. Roeder, I have been reading the articles you have been writing, you may work for a "prize winning" news paper but I see factual reporting getting close to turning into a "witch hunt." Do not let your quest for the "prize" blind you to fair, factual and honest reporting. The other thing that surprises me is the attention that Washington State senator Maria Cantwell is paying to the investigation and the "uninformed" statements she is making, and it is not even an election year! *read that pulling it out her *****. Sign me "one from the wet place"
05/20	I'm a high school senior who is looking into firefighting as a career. I have to write a report all about what firemen wear and what their jobs entail. If there is any way that you could possibly send me any information about what their turnout gear is made out of or from, that would be greatly appreciated. Also any other information you see as useful or important I wouldn't mind having either. Sincerely, john
05/20	Hey Ab, just happened to run across these and since they have been recently discussed I thought I'd pass them along. 30 mile newsflash from AP DUI firefighter (Reno Gazette)-- Fatal crash driver had previous DUI conviction >From the story it looks like this guy was a federal firefighter and it wasn't his first DUI. Fedfire Thanks Fedfire and others who sent in the link to the 30mi AP Newsflash. Ab. As of 05/23, a further update. The AP report on which these articles is based is in error and the links to the articles have been deleted. Ab.
05/20	To All- I ship out tomorrow from the East Coast for another summer with the 'shots. Thanks to all of you for providing me with fire topics to keep my mind sharp during the down season - city life can get pretty boring. Hope to work with, or along side, some of you this summer, JerseyBoy Check in when you can. Be Safe. Ab.
05/20	From John: 28 Countries to Jointly Practice Forest Fire Fighting in Croatia 22-24 May - Invitation to Media "The exercise, labeled "Taming the Dragon - Dalmatia 2002" is the biggest ever conducted in Europe, with 28 countries involved" www.nato.int/eadrcc/tdragon/a020507e.htm
05/20	Hello all, I finally got a chance to check my e-mail and found this link. I thought everyone would like to see this. Check out the fire simulator also, its really cool. Take care and have a safe season... Dennis R5 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fire/ Heya Dennis, we hyped the NOVA Fire Wars show here on theysaid for weeks before its debut and then reviewed it afterwards. Did'ja notice the link to wildlandfire.com on their links page? Haven't been reading here lately, have you? HAW HAW. Ab.
05/20	The reason the FS has not divulged details of pending disciplinary actions is it is illegal to do so. The Privacy Act and several other Federal laws prohibit the release of such information until after disposition of the case, and then only limited info is available to be released to the public. This is not the FS stonewalling or intentionally covering something up, it is obeying laws passed by Congress. You may obtain some information from the in-house rumor mill, which may or may not be accurate or factual. But you should check with your legal department before publishing any information obtained from other than official channels. Inaccurate or sensational reporting may ruin careers and damage personal lives of innocent people. Gordon
05/20	Re 30 Mi info on individuals being released to Mr. Roeder, I don't think the govt can share that info with the media or the public at large prior to settlement of the the whole incident without risking lawsuit. Re announcing the IC by name on an incident, I am worried that if first and last names are released over the airwaves on an incident, I will then start getting phone calls at home from the media wanting to know this and that about the fire. I am not alone in being very displeased by this prospect. I have no concerns about being accountable for my choices, actions and oversight. I always act with that accountability in mind as do all R5 managers I know. Mandating name announcement is bull$h*t in my estimation. Find some other way to make clear and reinforce the chain-of-command if that is necessary. NorCal Tom
05/20	Ab, The CDF four person engine companies were in the North Region only last year. Supposedly there was an analysis that showed values saved by the additional person were significant. I haven't seen the report. There has been some talk about beefing up SoCal this year either by hiring or pre-positioning resources. For a couple of years my unit beefed up engines on strike teams to four and five persons. It made a dramatic difference in production and capability. So far the state budget cuts haven't made it to the fire protection side of CDF. However, the emergency fund from which we pay fire suppression costs above IA, was restructured so that we have about half the spending authority in total dollars. This means that we spend out of our general fund budget until we can get a "reload" from the legislature. With the E-fund tapped the only way for CDF to stay solvent is to delay payment to vendors. The double edged sword is that there is a payment penalty imposed on the state if vendors aren't paid in a timely manner and small business operators can't afford to carry the state for six months. This harks back to 1992, ancient history to some, where we had to negotiate with vendors to take purchase orders in order to feed our traveling crews. Static water supplies are not new to the fire service. The NFPA has a standard for rural water supplies that involves developing streams and water bodies to be usable year-round. The ISO (Insurance Services Organization) recognizes these water supplies when rating fire departments. Since we are talking about interface fire fighting where water is important and municipal type supplies often fail it would be a good idea to overlap the hydrant system with a static system. Section 4290 of the CA Public Resources Code suggests to local government a model code where each rural house not on a municipal system have at least 2,500 gallons of water available for fire fighting. The CA rural fire service and wildland agencies have not been aggressive enough at developing static water sources. Even the City of San Francisco has a major static water system, it only took one good earthquake for them to get the idea. We fight fires in the same places over and over without improving infrastructure. JW
05/20	dunno what the weather is like in So Cal, but most of north zone received lots of rain Sunday, more forecast for Monday. It poured in the Mendo region and into the ElDo. so, kids, time to practice the drills for a fire safe season to come. be well and stay safe wherever you are! Mom
05/20	Mr. Roeder: While it is our business to know what happened at Thirtymile and what we can use to learn from it, it is my belief that it is not our business as to the specifics of the discipline. Unless the individuals want to come forward and tell us (you) the details, this information should not be released. I believe the direct families should possibly be the only one that know the fine details of the discipline, with permission from the FS and employees directly involved. I can't answer the question have they fought fire since then.. my guess.. no. Yes, your articles deserved to win awards and was an excellent way to get the facts straight. Thanks you for that. I understand the need to dig for information but I just think your request goes too far. SRW
05/20	Excellent posts by the paper...... "While Forest Service investigations found serious safety violations at Thirtymile, Okanogan Wenatchee Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal and other officials have attributed mistakes to an unpredictable fire that would have 'overwhelmed any who faced it." Serious Safety violations... YES (*ten of them* at the bare minimum)..... "Overwhelmed by ANY who had faced it"... NO WAY IN HELL... We have Hotshots Superintendents, HS Captains, Engine Captains, and Module Leaders who make those decisions every day.. It Seemed a HS Supt. made the decision to disengage on the fire and wasn't listened to....... He used his training, experience, and fire knowledge to make that decision... It was a good decision. Holding folks accountable has always been the problem... the safety mechanisms have always been in PLACE... holding folks accountable hasn't taken place. Fire is a PREDICTABLE thing when you realize the signs around you... The inability to recognize these signs is NOT an excuse. Drought, inexperience, multiple fires, topography, the total lack of adherence to the 10 Standard Fire Orders, lack of LCES, and the lack of recognition of the 18 situations caused this incident. Adherence to the 10, 18 and LCES have been policy for the USDI and USDA since "Storm King". Enforcement hasn't. Nothing more and nothing less. Rogue Rivers
05/19	From the Washington Post... And it's about time. "Computer Upgrade to make Savings Plan a Daily Affair for Participants" Bear
05/19	Hey, Ab and firefighters: I'm a reporter who has been covering the Thirtymile Fire since July 10. Our paper has won several national and regional awards for our investigation of the circumstances that led to the deaths of Jessica Johnson, Karen FitzPatrick, Tom Craven and Devin Weaver. Having just found your site, I noticed several of our articles referenced. Here's one more. On Sunday we reported on how the Forest Service is dealing with the commanders at Thirtymile and how they are training firefighters to avoid the mistakes that killed last year. That can be found at www.yakima-herald.com. All of our Thirtymile coverage can be found in archives on the site. Now, here's the catch: The Forest Service hasn't been very forthcoming on couple of items that I need to know more about -- who is facing discipline over their role at Thirtymile and have those people facing discipline fought fire since Thirtymile. I could use your help. And if you have comments on our stories, I'll take those too. Thanks, Tom Roeder Reporter The Yakima Herald-Republic
05/19	I just wanted to let everyone know that nimrod packs are the absolute toughest on the market. i just bought the fl n-350 to replace my old pg bag and i have not been disappointed yet, these packs offer unparalleled comfort. i hike 4-8 miles every other day and my shoulders feel just as fresh at the end of my hikes as they did when i started. i would recommend the nimrod line of packs to anyone HANDS DOWN. thanks, idfiredawg
05/18	Two brush fires have been cooking along today scorching more than 1000 acres, forcing 30 families to evacuate an area north of Ft Pierce FL. Temp was 91 degrees today, cooling now. Fine fuels are VERY dry. Winds that played a part in fanning the flames earlier are lessening as evening comes on. We have 300+ firefighters and helo support working on the fire. Green burns even with high humidity. Be Safe All! FL Ranger.
05/18	Speaking of the funniest things ever on an application, this is my all time favorite. " I didn't ever graduate from high school but I was Valid Victorian of my freshman class." If you don't get it have someone help you with any future apps you might put in. Later, Rudy PS Good to hear that Prescott, AZ dodged that bullet.
05/18	Hi all, Just wondering what everyone thinks of Nimrod line packs. I am thinking of getting a nimrod or eagle gear. Any input would be great. thanks MA DEM D-7 Hey, Nimrod has a classifieds ad with us and came recommended by firefighters, as did others on our Classifieds Page. Check 'em out. Ab.
05/18	FireSandwich, Wish that was your app. we were looking at but it wasn't. This guy had NO fire experience, although he was an EMT. Hope I didn't offend you. It was a humorous note in the midst of a pile of apps. It got us to look twice. Hope with your fire experience that it worked for you. An-R5er
05/18	Ab please post this. Readers, please RSVP if you plan to attend: All are welcome to attend: The California Fire Chiefs Association, Communications Section, in partnership with the California Office of the State Fire Marshal, presents: The Utah Olympic Public Safety Experience: Planning for Success The 2002 Winter Olympic Games: Lessons Learned for Homeland Security and MCI A Presentation by Capt. T. J. Kennedy, Deputy Director, Utah Olympic Public Safety Command Also Presenting: World Class Winter Olympics Dispatching Randall Larson, 9-1-1 Magazine/San Jose Fire Chuck Barker, Placer County Communications Held in the shadow of September 11th, safety and security at the 2002 Winter Olympics Games in Salt Lake City, Utah were of paramount importance. Hundreds of law enforcement, dozens of firefighter/EMS personnel, and nearly 50 public safety dispatchers volunteered or were assigned to make the 2002 Winter Olympics a safe experience for all concerned. This special FREE presentation will immediately follow the general CFCA Communications Section meeting. WHEN: Weds May 29, 2002 CFCA Communications Meeting 09:30 - 11:30 UOPSC Presentations 11:30 - 2:30 WHERE: San Jose Airport Inn - 1355 N 4th St @ E Gish Rd 408/453-5340 Hosted by the San Jose Fire Department A lunch order (min. $10) will be taken at the start of the meeting. Morning refreshments will be provided. Please RSVP: Randall Larson, 408-227-8027
05/17	R5-er, So you saw my application, ehh? Which forest? I personally thought the "Sandwich Artist" experience on the resume fit in nicely with the previous fire and EMT work. See you this summer! -FireSandwich <HAW><HAW><HAW> Small fire world! Ab.
05/17	For R-5 fire hounds. does anybody know where I can find a document or manual regarding 8hr or 24hr refresher for camp support people (non-fireline). Or does it even exist? We had a long discussion about this on forest and there were mixed beliefs on this subject. My thing was show me on paper where it exist, not that it's a bad idea, we have had a few camps burned out over the years. So if anybody can give me a place to look these up I would appreciate it. Thanks, Lost in paperwork
05/17	Fireguy, I e-mailed the Snake River IHC Superintendent to see if they still had openings earlier today. He told me that he IS looking for an experienced person to fill a crew member position, but the only way he can pick anyone up at this time would be to detail a current federal employee. You can get the phone numbers and email information at www.fs.fed.us/fire/fire_new/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html CB
05/17	There is a vacancy for a LEAD HELITACK CREWPERSON, GS-462-5/6 in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The position is with the National Park Service, but it primarily works on an interagency helitack crew at Custer, SD. It is a career seasonal (subject to furlough) position, normally funded for 13 pay periods (26 weeks) each year. The Black Hills is a great area with a lot of fire activity. The vacancy announcement will be open until the position is filled, but the first cut-off date for applications to be received is May 21. For more information, check USA jobs at http://jsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/ftva.asp?OPMControl=ID2675 or contact bill_gabbert@nps.gov The Jobs page, Job Series 0462 and 0455 Pages are updated. Ab.
05/17	Greetings All, This last topic has prompted me to turn off the lurk mode and post a reply. On the issue of burning filter elements my suggestion would be to add a cyclonic pre-cleaner. It will filter substantially more than a screen and will greatly improve the life of your current filter element which means better air flow to the motor. I know that Enginaire pre-cleaners (www.enginaire.com/) were spec'd on all the Unimog engines in use with the BLM & USFS - and I had good results from mine last season. Stay Safe, UNIMOG1201
05/17	Firescribe, Boy have you said a mouth full, I am currently in the SW and we are expecting more dry lighting for Saturday, it should be interesting. SoCal, I know what you mean about the CDF or LA County Crews, I have talked to alot of those guys over the winter time, some of the guys were honest and others tried to hide it. I would probably give one of them a chance. As for your application experience, here is one for you, "I worked as a sandwich artist". Stay safe everyone, R-3 is looking for people to come out. An-R5er
05/17	Does anyone know if the Snake River Valley hotshots are still hiring or need detailers??? I've spent a few years on a shot crew and currently work as a Crew Leader on a Heavy Engine....I'd love to get back on a GOOD shot crew. Thanks for the info. Fireguy
05/16	FireBill - In response to your question about air filters catching fire (5/14), I do have quite a bit of experience with this problem. There have been several agencies plagued by this problem in recent years, and it's a costly one. From my observations, most if not all of the engines involved were in wildland urban interface situations (structure protection). This basically puts the apparatus at the head of the fire. Most of the fires that this has happened on have been wind driven (Santa-Ana) type events producing a lot of fire brands. The only fix that we have come up with is to put 1/8 - 1/16 fine mesh metal screening on the outside if the air-intake. This hopefully will catch most of the embers entering the air duct. This also does not restrict the air flow. There are long term fixes being looked at. I have heard that K&N filters is being asked to produce a filter that would suit the fire service needs, although I can't confirm this. There are also other vendors that already have products to prevent this, but to my knowledge they are for only type I engines. In addition, it has not been just the air cleaner that has destroyed an engine. On the Viejas Fire (Jan-2001), a local government type I engine was destroyed because of an ember that had got underneath the cab of the engine catching the plastic insulation for the wiring on fire. The firefighters could not raise the cab to extinguish it because it was electrical. Needless to say despite their best efforts, the engine's cab was destroyed. I don't know what the answer is to that one. I hope this suits your needs. CAP
05/16	Aussie CFU, I thought everyone Downunder had firefighting experience. Sure you're not reeeeeeeeally a firefighter? I, for one, am looking forward to hearing more about your system, your problems and issues, how you're funded, your chain-of-command when working with civilian volunteers with household tools. Seems like safety, training, and gear would be big issues. I'm just picturing The Australian PUBLIC in shorts and tennis shoes as the fire front roars in, blithely wielding their garden hoses. Do they know enough to stay safe? Many interface residents in CA do not. (Out of curiosity, what time is it there? Must go ask Jeeves. When is your most active fire season? the fall?) As we say here, Be Safe. Tahoe Terrie
05/16	Some more budget talk. Funding for fire for the Forest Service is going to be another problem this year. Last year, FS fire overspent, and to make up for it national management robbed WCF money intended for purchasing fleet vehicles. The fleet manager reduced vehicles and had to hold off on receiving new vehicles. Lately FS fire people were scouring the shop yards looking for rigs for the summer, not enough to cover their needs. This summer the word is to take the budget for the FS fourth quarter to cover fire expenses. Heard this from a contracting officer. The usual method for most FS departments is to be conservative with their budget until the fourth quarter then buy your supplies for the next year. This is to avoid overspending your budget early. Not this year, so I recommend the FS people spend their budget early to avoid losing it. There also has been quite a stir about the 30% reduction of the FS budget in the fiscal year 2005. This is going to affect all departments including fire. The FS will just have to do less with less. It is not looking good. COMT
05/16	"Todd's" list of Interface watchouts is one of the many in the Incident Response Pocket Guide (PMS 461/NFES 1077) available thru PMS at NIFC: a "Must Have" tool for firefighters at all levels, and only $2.27 each. Mollysboy
05/16	As many of us were busy hiring folks today.... one captain called me over to look at someones application. The application looked O.K. but with little related experience except backpacking and outdoor experience. The other Captain then asked me to look at a particular sentence. The sentence read ... "Longest time without a shower: 30 days". I thought, "wow, thats the first time anyone has used that as a selling point". I have to put this as one of the 5 most hilarious things I've ever seen on someones application. The funny thing is, stinky is probably going to be offered a job because his application was complete and honest. Has anyone noticed the "I worked for CDF or LA County FD... I got paid $1.00/hr". ... no mention of CDC or CYA time? Don't get me wrong, I am not against hiring ex- CYA and CDC folks... just against hiding it in a cloudy mess on the application. Stinky, if you get the job, please shower on a regular basis. SoCalCapt
05/15	Firescribe note: After yesterday's dry lightning pass, the Southwest is spooling up: www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/webdaily/swaintnn.htm
05/15	Dear Ab, Here is the first post of the three that I intend to make. What do you think? If it is too long then please cut/snip/edit what you think should be and then post it. For the time being I would like to sign off as "Aussie CFU". It seems quite relevant to now post this after seeing Todd's post. Okay, you have just arrived from interstate and your first deployment is to some suburb that bulges 3 miles into a national park and you can see that towering pall of thick black smoke. The flames are visible from 2 miles away. The fire is burning in the crown of the eucalyptus trees. It is 95 degrees F, humidity is 0%, no rain for 3 weeks, fuel loads are at a 7 year high. Already there are at least a 10 helicopters water bombing. There are fires all over the state. Total fire bans have been in place for the whole state for a week now. Some 10,000 people are working on over 120 fires. As you drive into the suburb you notice that some houses have funny little signs with the letters SWS printed on them. Most of the streets on the edge of the suburb point into the forest. All up some 67 trucks and 600 crew members will be deployed during the next 4 hours. You locate the nearest hydrant to your assigned location and hook up. You then run 2 hoses into the nearest properties and wait. The residents are all out there in their gardens hosing down everything that can burn. You tell your crew to help and start pumping water but notice that the pressure is lousy. The fire is approaching and spot fires begin to flare up. It is all starting to happen as the fire front arrives. The pressure from the mains begins to drop and you do some quick mental calculations (30 trucks, at this time and more arriving every minute 30 x 200 gallons per min = 6000 gallons per minute drawing water from a 12in main, as well as about 400 houses, all with garden hoses and sprinkler system running) adds up to.... not enough water. The pressure continues to fall and soon you can hear shouts for more water as the mains run dry. You switch to the truck's 1000 gallon tank but know that will last 10 minutes, max. You know that you are going to start to see houses burn. Now what? Over the command radio comes the word to draft from the backyard pools. You look frantically around. How do you figure out which houses have a pool? One of residents comes over and says they have a static water supply program. Just look for the house marked with a SWS sign and there will be a pond, pool or spa that you can draft water from. You uncouple from the useless hydrant, as you recall your crews and move your truck to the nearest house with an SWS sign and draft from a 10,000 gallon pool. The house next door also has an SWS sign so you send your portable pump over. The fire front moves on and, as you pack up, you look at the burnt forest and scorched houses and you think that you were lucky, as things would have gotten really bad with no water. Turns out that over 400 homes were threatened but none were lost. What do you think of the above scenario? (Yeah some parts of it are cr%p but that is because I have no experience in fighting fires so please allow some poetic license.) The answer is that it actually works... so read on. Static Water Supply The Static Water Supply ( SWS ) concept used in Australia is to let fire fighters know where there is a safe and reliable source of water that they can either draft from or use a portable pump to fight fires with, where there is little or no water, poor pressure or simply the water mains are too small to provide the quantity of water needed. The project was started in Australia by the New South Wales Fire Brigades and was deemed an outstanding success during the recent Dec / Jan bush fires. If the home owner decides to participate in the program then they put a standard sign out the front of their property. NSW has adopted a vertical rectangular format ( approx. 3in wide by 8in high ) made from white engineer grade reflective sheeting as the background with transparent blue letters mounted on a piece of 1/8th inch thick aluminium. They are given away for free. There are two levels to this programme. Unofficial ? This is where the home owners just stick the sign up out front and if the brigades need water and they see the sign, then they can just grab it. Official ? This is where details of the water are lodged with the local station and can then be listed as a resource, put onto maps, crews can be directed to by local commands, etc. Either way in most cases, for Sydney, the water would be from pools. Besides which, if you have one of these out front with a fire coming and the brigades arrive they are more likely to set up at a house with a pool than without one. From asking a few of the fire fighters who were at my place they say that the average pool (8,000 to 10,000 gallons) will take about 45 minutes to drain using one of their portable pumps. Additionally there is no reason why dams or large ponds can't be used for those semi rural or rural properties. The standing offer is that once things quiet down they the brigade will come back and fill your pool from the mains so you don't get charged for it. More information is available at the website below. www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/index.asp?pageid=3278&navid= Aussie CFU Thanks Aussie CFU. (CFU = Community Fire Unit) Very interesting. Ab.
05/15	Here are some Wildland/Urban Interface Watchout Situations I found helpful while down south this last week: 1. Wooden construction and/or wood shake roofs. 2. Poor access and narrow one-way roads. 3. Inadequate water supply. 4. Natural fuels within 30 feet of structures. 5. Extreme fire behavior. 6. Strong winds. 7. Problems with evacuating the public, panic or determination to stay in unsafe conditions. 8. Structures located in flashy fuels on steep slopes, in box canyons or chimneys. 9. Bridge load limits. Todd
05/15	In response to L.A.V.E No rumors yet on the staffing levels this summer. But in response to Ab's statement on feeding the crews, CDF did loose their contract with safeway, and I really haven't heard if they have got it back or not. It's getting hot here in NorCal and we are starting to hire seasonals. C.D.
05/15	From Firescribe: Flathead MT County Officials to sue the Forest Service
05/15	LAVE I have been talking with my CDF buddies and here is what I have heard. Last year CDF staffed their wildland engine with 4-person crews across the state. Thanks to "GUBENOR" Grey-Out Davis and the energy mess he allowed to happen the state is 24.6 BILLION DOLLARS in the red. He said yesterday that his priorities were "education, public safety, and no new taxes". However, this year CDF will only be staffing their engines with 3 firefighters, and there looks like, regardless how bad the season is, there will probably not be augmented staffing like in years past. There are a lot of CDF seasonal firefighters who aren't going to have a job this season and are not aware of it. I heard that if augmentation happens this year then it will probably be for Southern California only. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. CDF evidently has a lot of people who are retiring this year, a lot of people who are going over to local government FDs (better pay, hours, and benefits) and there are expected to be a lot of promotions and new openings but it's unknown how this will be affected by the budget crisis. We have a guy at my work who left CDF to work for the Feds because they couldn't offer him a permanent slot, and it looks like he may now get it later this season. For those who don't know, our idiot governor started this fiscal year with a 9 Billion Dollar surplus, got sucked up in the Enron Mess, and brought the state to 24.6 Billion Dollar Deficit. It's a bad situation all the way around because there are local governments who don't know how the budget crisis will affect their operating budgets (ie when the State is short on money they try to reduce the funding to local governments). The Feds are on the last year of the $1.6 Billion supplement and its unknown if that money will be given back to the Feds for the next 3 years with the War on Terror going on. MOC4546 Ab heard last night via a state news feed that the deficit is now projected to be 27billion and Davis is planning to raise taxes.
05/15	Wonder how CDF and local fire departments will fare with the money woes? I wonder if all the seasonal firefighters that are needed will be hired or will they try to do some kind of pick up program when things get HOT? Anyone out there with CDF have any good rumors? Will the local government agencies be asked to pick up more of the "slack" when the poop hits the props? (I'm not bad mouthing CDF fire people, I just wonder about the bean counters that seem to run everything nowadays.) Just wondering since Southern Cal. has had a couple of good fires lately and things look, well HOT. Be safe and sane on the fire lines! L.A.V.E. I heard they're having trouble trying to figure our how to feed their crews. Is there any substance to that rumor? Perhaps one of the CDF BCs can fill us in. Remember, Folks, when budgets get really tight the rumors start flying. Ab.
05/15	Folks; Here's a bite-sized chunk from NASA on the role of biomass burning in climate change: http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/biomass_burn/biomass_burn.html Here's the same thing in an expanded version from the UN: www.unep.org/geo2000/english/0040.htm I wonder how many SUVs you could drive and for how long by knocking off one large fire as if it never existed. For satellite pix, go to Earth Observatory, which is killing the competition in the Webby Awards for best in science category. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/ John
05/15	Contractor Redcards: I work for a contractor in Oregon and am already carded, still N.W.S.A. training and still carded by the O.F.C.A. Haven't heard anything about problems with them. The Real COYOTE So we have two coyotes, maybe three? Yeah, you are real alright, and the first. Ab.
05/15	Ab, Just a few comments about who is supposed to sign red cards. The USFS the task is assigned to the Forest Supervisor (or his delegate) except for those on type 1 teams in operations section, then the cards go the Region Office for the Regional Director to sign, as per 5109.17. The WA DNR, the authority to sign red cards from Crew Boss down is delegated to the Assist. Region Manager and anything above CRWB is signed in Olympia. I sure hope the folks at SLICC (spelling?) have written direction to sign for the "boss". As far as red cards for contractors, in R-6, they do not get issued red cards from the state (Oregon or Washington). As per agreement with the contractors associations, the associations will train and certify the employees of the contractors with a laminated picture ID with qualifications on the back. Now some of the contractors may be printing the quals card on red paper but that does not make it a "red card." One more change of note, there will be an increased emphasis on current red cards this summer. In R-6 the teams have been instructed to have every ones red card examine by the status check in recorder. If the card is out of date, or does not have the correct quals listed for the job at hand the person will be placed in a position they are qualified for or sent home. If I remember correctly there was an article posted somewhere about a contractor in Oregon who gave cards to employees that were altered. Due to that little incident, you can be sure all contractor issued certifications will be looked at twice or more. If any thing suspicious if found it is more than likely the entire crew will be sent home. wp Just put up a link and info for the National Wildfire Suppression Assn on the Classifieds Page. Their name has come up on theysaid on more than one occasion. Check 'em out. Check out our other folks advertising here also. Ab.
05/14	Ab, Heard on the news today that a fatal accident on I-80 east of Reno was caused by a drunk driver that had California Firefighter license plates. A mother and 3 small children were killed and several more are in critical condition at Washoe Med. The drunk driver walked away with no injuries. Ab, it's things like this that just make me sick. If you insist on flying your colors off duty, do so responsibly. It is bad enough that someone in our profession would be involved in something like this but to represent us all with a statement like the plates and commit a crime like this is sickening. I think some believe those plates give them license to act above the law. I've got to sign off before I really start to rant. Coyote Here's the story: Reno Gazette Journal. Another article said his agency was unknown. This Ab adds, "Firefighters don't let firefighter brothers and sisters drive drunk."
05/14	Hey Ab, Some discussion lately in my community about all youth doing 2 yr of service for the US, if not the military then in fire or law enforcement, etc, etc. Smoke Chaser by Warren Yahr mentioned Conscientious Objectors during WW II years smokejumping and fighting fire. I found this interesting article on the subject. 'Peace Jumpers' Fought Forest Fires Instead of Soldiers (1944): washingtonpost.com Sign me: Firefighter who believes in service Smoke Chaser is available on Amazon. If interested, please go to our Books page and enter Amazon through the portal there. Purchases of books or other products that you make after entering through our portal gives us a small "commission" and it helps pay our bills. Ab.
05/14	Hey Ab and all you ECC Folks out there: I just want to say THANKS to ECC PERSONNEL everywhere for what you GUYS and GALS do each and every day to make our lives in the field better! We think it's crazy on the ground. It's 10 times more crazy in dispatch. You dispatchers make a difference! Keep up the good work! Groundpounder
05/14	Ab, It is my understanding that contractors will no longer be able to issue red cards unless they have an MOU with PNWCG. Does any one know or foresee what problems will arise this year with contractor issued red cards? Just wanted to predict what is going to happen so we can try to mitigate the issues. Any help or comments would be appreciated. Thanks AJ
05/14	Question on firefighter fatalities: Have any FF's been killed on a wildfire that was accidentally set, campfires/fireworks etc.? And if so what were the consequences to the guilty party? Thanks Hope all is well where the earthquakes happen. Mark
05/14	I see the Govt is working right along at their usual snails pace from the "Memo" put out by NIFC concerning the changing of flagging from Lime Green to Hot Pink. Not sure what "Rocket Scientist" came up with the original idea to begin with several years ago. Has been so long ago I don't even remember how many years; but think it was in the mid-90's when the first "Memo" came out of R-6 about using "Lime Green". We tried it on a fire and the relief crew that went in the next day to take over the fire from IA found the the first ribbon at the road, then found no more after an extensive 2 hour grid search. Gave instructions to go back to "Hot Pink" and fired off a letter to R-6 Fire Management. As usual, it went nowhere. Glad to see wiser heads have finally prevailed! Firehorse
05/14	I saw something recently, but only in passing, about some engines being burned up due to sucking an ember into the air cleaner and starting an engine fire, usually destroying the engine. Anyone have any experience with this, seen it, heard about it with more fact than anecdote? I'd be anxious to know a little more about it and what agencies did to prevent a reoccurrence. Thanks in advance, gang. ~FireBill
05/13	Here's the MEMO from NIFC on escape route and safety zone flagging. DF
05/13	fed fire backpay update: Looks like NFC has started the process of paying on fire backpay for round 2. Some of you may have noticed a separate deposit that you received in PP07 (it will come as a separate deposit, not lumped with your salary checks). According to the RO, NFC is processing these payments in social security number order, so if you hear of someone who has received theirs and you haven't, this may explain why not. A letter from the WO is supposed to be sent out sometime soon with further information. That's about all we know at this point. Chris
05/13	Jake & MNM561 & others: The crews that do most of the IA are already on engines or a Type 1 or 2 team that have been pre-qualified so to speak. In the Fire Service it will be up to each agency to ensure their people are certified to fight fire within their own jurisdiction or for when they travel. Even though there have been some issues with cards in the State or Federal side; most problems arise in the Fire Service or Contractors. The reason for this problem is usually a lack of education or a lack of understanding the system. I spend a lot of time educating department leaders who have never dealt with redcards. As stated before WADNR will be checking the cards for the 02' date on them when you check into the fire after IA. I applaud this move, since I do not want to be working with or working next to crews or individuals who may cause safety problems at crucial times. We're all watchdogs and we'll watch up and down the chain. sfirelake
05/12	Hey ab, I haven't posted in a while so I thought I would send word from the bizaro world of wildland fire -- Florida. Things have been quiet much later into the year than the last three years. We kinda expect the lightning to start within a few weeks so things will break loose. It is still really dry here. The kbdi for our area is around 610 or more. I'm carded again this year, so maybe if we aren't gettin our bums kicked like last year I will be able to go when the western call comes in. That's about it. Everybody remember, the first and last person concerned for your safety is you. Keep your heads up out there, and if a florida crew comes in with their @ss's in the dirt because of the elevation just cut us some slack, we have to take turns using disney's magic mountain to train. Flash
05/12	Greetings, To help point you in the right direction for redcard signatures. My agency (WA State DNR) used to have it done by the regional Fire Protection Forester. But last year that task was reassigned to our dispatch Central Washington Interagency Communications Center or something like is commonly known as CWICC (Pronounced swick) in Wenatchee. This was the logical move since they also keep track of our agency training records. I've not heard anything of the new policy about checking redcard since i've not returned yet for the season. I imagine it depends on who you work for and the like, a good resource might be to check your local dispatch fire center, local State agency (eg CDF, ODF), Regional FS office, or NIFC. Good luck with the search. Also one thing I strongly recommend is to get a copy of your training records and check to see that it is current and Accurate, Especially if you are in fire for a state or govt. agency and a local fire department and go to wildland classes under your Fire department's name. This happened to me and was worth the time to track down and have current records. MNM561
05/12	"CDF Mike" said, in response to my posting about the trend in the average size of fires over the last 40 years: "Except that I would point out that when he and I started, circa 1969, Hand Crews were not using chainsaws, and chainsaws seem to me to be vastly superior to brush hooks." Here on They Said It, we seem to be very interested in WHEN tools first appeared on the wildland fire scene (see the "Inquiring Minds Want to Know" page at http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk.htm) I was using a chain saw, a Homelite Super XL, on fires in 1968 and was a sawyer on a southern California Hot Shot Crew in 1970 using the same model of chain saw. Other hot shot crews were also using them during that period. I believe it was 5, 10, or 15 years after that date that CDF inmate crews were given chain saws. And, if anyone wonders where I got the statistics for the chart that accompanied my earlier post, the number of fires and total acres per year came from the NIFC web site at www.nifc.gov/stats/wildlandfirestats.html I did the math (using Excel) to compute the average annual acres, and used the "trend line" feature of Excel to show the linear regression lines. Be careful out there! Jackson
05/12	On increased fire numbers and increased acreage .... how many of you have read the Rains Report? This addresses fire cost more than size, but it also deals with why and how large fires get large. If you can wade through the agency/political language in the report, there's actually some enlightening content in it. Rains Report kelly
05/12	v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ ~.~.~Happy Mother's Day~.~.~.~.~Happy Mother's Day~.~.~.~.~Happy Mother's Day~.~.~ v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ Here's to our moms and all moms everywhere!