DATE	SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: May-02) Return to Archives Page
06/30	It is interesting to me to note in both this forum and the national/local press how much outrage is being vented against "the environmentalists" for their presumed fight against "forest thinning", VMP programs, etc., and their supposed culpability in the current siege of fire. First, most "environmentalists", including me, see exactly ONE major cause of environmental degradation, and that is !!!!!<<OVERPOPULATION>>!!!!. Second, I suspect only a very few have ever fought against forest/fuel thinning. Local Air Pollution Control Districts have often been a problem, but that is a problem with bureaucrats attempting to fulfill their obligations, not environmentalists. Third, and let me preface this by saying my 32 years of wildland fire experience have been solely in California, so I may be missing some of the nuances of the fire problem elsewhere, "REDUCING THE FUEL LOAD IN WILDLAND AREAS EITHER BY MECHANICAL OR COMBUSTION METHODS WILL NOT WORK". I am reminded of the time I was on-duty one evening at a CDF station in Riverside County, CA. Network TV had just shown a 2-hour movie (B-grade) revolving around a large forest fire. Shortly after it ended the station phone rang. The party at the other end wished to impart to me, as an agent of the state responsible for wildland fire protection, his insight into how to solve the problem. It seems that we have overlooked the obvious option of laying irrigation pipe over all of the wildland, and installing thereon numerous sprinkler heads equipped with fusible links. It is clear, now, that this would pretty much eliminate our wildland fire problem............ But this neophyte with the big brain is no worse than the thousands of people who should know better, including Mr. Pyne (loved his books, and I can only assume that his ivory-tower intellectualism has led him off the path of wisdom), and many professional wildland firefighters. Here is the problem: Take California. It has 100 million acres of wildland. Our Ranger Unit conducts several controlled-(VMP) burns per year. Their average size is about 1000 acres. Each of these VMP burns requires a great deal of our local resources to conduct. Helicopters, engines, Fire Crews, bulldozers, overhead and etc. IF the burn is 100% successful (??) we will have eliminated with each burn an average of one one-hundred-thousandth of California's fuel load. And let's hope those resources weren't needed elsewhere. But waitaminute. From personal experience, I expect at least one out of ten of these to significantly escape control lines. This can often, with much effort and only minor augmentation of forces already there, and the exhaustion of us poor Fire Crew members, be controlled without anyone elsewhere being the wiser. But a smaller, but still very significant, percentage will escape and run wild, threatening life, property and governmental budgets. All this to eliminate a tiny fraction of the wildland fuel available. I understand that the locations of these control burns can be selected for the greatest possible strategic value, but I maintain that in order to make any significant reduction in California's wildland fire problem via controlled burning involves far greater cost and risk than the public will accept. And don't even get me started on mechanical means. My very vigorous Crew and I spent an entire summer cutting, stacking and burning five acres of brush. It took four days to burn the piles, and the local Fire Dept. responded twice to situations while I was there that were looking dicey, and then, with another Captain in attendance, a major escape required a full CDF and local Fire response and scared the hell out of the local homeowners......... Solution? Continue as we are doing, extinguishing to the best of our abilities all wildland fires which will conceivably present a threat to improvements and/or life. Let the timber companies fund fire suppression which threatens their timber. Or (and I support this final option, which has no chance in hell of coming to pass), phase out ALL wildland fire suppression over a period of about ten years, with the exception of commercial timber fires, the suppression of which will be paid for by private timber companies. The public will be warned that they need to provide for their own protection via not building in locations where fire will burn down their home, or to at least reduce the fuel load threatening their homes at their own expense. Meanwhile, existing forces will gradually be shifted entirely to structure protection. At the end of 10 to 15 years, only a minor skeleton crew of fire suppression forces will remain to assist in extraordinary situations. How'm I doing? CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande Mike, Here’s a couple of comments from my perspective. I think I understand how you have determined that overpopulation is the main factor in your arena. As I see it, CDF typically is stationed and has direct protection authority for a majority of the wildland/urban interface as it constantly expands from the urban areas. Counties failing to consider the impact of the relentless population expansion are those first in line to request the governor to declare a state of emergency so their residents can be eligible for assistance to rebuild in the same fire prone areas at a lower cost to themselves. I’ve seen it a hundred times: when a homeowner whose home has burned to the ground is asked if they will stay and rebuild, they respond that they will. On your statement regarding you and your crew's seemingly insignificant contributions towards reducing existing fuel loading, I can only say that I would multiply your crew's efforts by the number of others attempting the same and multiply that by 15 years (your arbitrary time frame) of strategic fuel reduction and let's see the results. I am willing to bet they would be much better than you seem to think they would be. Contrary to your opinion, I have personally witnessed large crowning timber fires stopped and held at areas that had been pre-treated. The most recent was last year. The Battalion Officer in charge of the fire had spent over five years as an engine Captain working on the fuel break. It was quite pleasurable to him to recognize that his five years of apparently mindless, repetitious, seemingly unrewarding work had paid off. As a member of a California Type 1 Team, I have have seen other examples where, not only did the fire die down when it hit a pretreated area, it was predictable that it would do so. The reduction in existing fuel loads and the effort to modify the vegetation cannot be accomplished, or judged in short term, narrow perspectives. The reality of how long it took to change and produce our existing vegetation versus the reality of how long it may take to revert to a thinner status is unknown. Most likely won’t happen in my lifetime. Your thoughts of ignoring history, fundamental biology and projecting only timber producers become responsible for fires fails to demonstrate a deeper understanding of forested areas. They provide not only lumber, but contain cities and towns that are and have been places of residence for several hundred years, they contain parks and wildernesses, they offer vacation areas for skiing, fishing, camping, reflecting and boating. There are no structures in many of the above areas, but most exhibit symptoms of poor land management in the past. Let’s lengthen the time line of your ideals and concepts to a hundred years or more before we abandon our immediate needs for the health of forests and parks that we have fought so long and hard to obtain. Original Ab.
06/30	Why are we bringing personnel from Australia & New Zealand? Canada does not count because they are our neighbors!!! We help them all the time and they help us all the time, to assist with the fire issues. There have to be hundreds of fire personnel that have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to do the work necessary within the USA. Many of the western departments have personnel that have the wildfire all the time. I just retired from a wonderful volunteer fire district in Washington that has promoted and facilitate the training and learning to do many of these jobs, yet only a few of them have been "ordered as resources". Is not there a national training tracking system to know is out there to pull into the incident? Why not have Congress or the President allow these personnel go to the fires with the blessing of their bosses and companies to get the fire out? Two years ago, it was allowed to let the college students show up late because of the late run of fires without penalty, maybe it is time to do this sort of thing again. Zimm
06/30	Mudd Droppers: Air Tankers.. Bees: type four helicopters.. I think of more as I read some from others.. Rotor Heads: Helitack Helislack: Helitack Thanks Fightfire75
06/30	Wildland Fire Terms: Driving for Dollars - The act if driving to or from a fire, when said driving occurs exclusively or mostly on overtime. Head Shed - Ones supervisory office. "I need to go have a meeting with the boss at the 'Head Shed'." I forgot two of my fav. fire names... In a fire season not so long ago, we called the first fire of the season the "Ready, Aim Fire", and the last of that year was the "Cease Fire". We don't bend them, we don't break them, FireBill
06/30	Not Again... AZ Republic scoop: BIA firefighter admits setting 'Rodeo' fire www.azrepublic.com/news/articles/0630fire-suspect-ON.html Fireball XL5
06/30	The fire folks from Australia, New Zealand and Canada who came to help out in 2000 weren't your regular Pulaski-motor type firefighters: they were all top overhead, and their quals were rigorously compared to 310-1 before they were carded to fill jobs on our IMT's. I suspect that these are the same types of folks being considered for 2002. Their own complaint: no cold beers in camp at the end of a long shift! Mollysboy
06/30	Re why we have not thinned the forests: Back from CO for a few days and then off to who knows where... Interesting to hear about fire on the broadcast news, but some things are disappointing - and hard to believe - and make me angry! Heard (on Fox?) Jay Inslee, congressman from WA (on the Forests and Forest Health Committee) say the environmentalists are not the problem - they have not stopped the Forest Service from using the money appropriated by Congress for the National Fire Plan. Well, in one sense, maybe he's right - those who are bringing suit and making appeals to block hazard tree removal, etc. are not environmentalists in my mind, they are zealots so in love with their own power and/or so afraid of the government that they are incapable of reason. "Let it burn." They want no mitigation of thick fuels, no interference of any kind. They, who were yesterday for the spotted owl and snail, don't care that catastrophic fire destroys the soil, leaves no habitat for spotted owl and snails and burns up more timber than can be imagined. Or that catastrophic fire destroys human's interface communities needlessly and can kill people from time to time. Will we be able to lay at their doorsteps the next deaths of the Public or of firefighters, say from an interface fire whose spread could have been prevented with shaded fuel breaks? Inslee says that the Forest Service is using every penny allocated by Congress. He thinks that more money should be appropriated. Well, we could use more money to get the job done, but... the unreasonable demands and legal blocks these extreme individuals are getting away with cost TIME, paperwork and taxpayer money in a HUGE way. Many of those "pennies" being used up from our budget for fire are "spent" when fed firefighters who could be doing more thinning or burning or research are instead tied up in researching rebuttals and providing frivolous FOIAs (Freedom of Information Act documents) that these extremist groups have submitted with the express purpose of "tying up" the system. They even have manuals on "How to Get Your Forest Service with a FOIA", for gosh sakes. It's a manipulation of the system, pure and simple. (Da*m, a FOIA is supposed to be a good thing, not a manipulation.) Abs, I know you don't want to turn this site into a political forum. I don't either - but as many of us, I have seen the destruction from fire and I know how thick our forests are and how a little work, strategically done, could really help. The process of fuel reduction of the National Fire Plan needs to be streamlined. Development of that plan has taken the good scientific work of many intelligent public servants with a lot of Public input and we need to get on with implementing it. Guess I'm pissed at how easily a few radicals and a judge can bring things to a grinding halt... and how readily our congressional representatives say it's not the problem... Guess I'm just needing to vent a little. Mellie, everyone I know who works in fire - we all consider ourselves environmentalists - bar none. I also have tended to vote Democrat thru the years. Maybe that's why I am seriously disappointed in Inslee's attitude that those who bring suit are not the problem. Sheesh! They are part of the problem and so is the judge!!! Everyone who is not part of the solution is part of the problem. (And IR-1, maybe I have just a touch of smoke inhalation syndrome - symptoms of frustration and anger occurring upon return from the fireline. Good post, that.) ABs, thanks for all you do including this forum. Be SAFE, Tahoe Terrie
06/30	My guess is that foreign firefighters are being invited for several reasons. First: We can use their help. This is still the beginning of what promises to continue to be a very long and active fire season. Resources will be low and in some areas already are. Those who are still at home (or find ourselves at home after being out and having a few weeks taste of the good life) probably are "stuck at home" because of local drawdown. At least that's my situation. Some of us need to stand at the ready for any developing local need. In current dry conditions across the West, any fire escaping IA has the potential to become a large fire. Hopefully over the course of the season different crews will share the "home duty". Second: Having foreign firefighters visit and participate is the best way to educate them to our system of fighting fire (and to learn about how ours differs from theirs). Everyone knows that the PTB/OJT portion of our training is at least as important and perhaps more important than the classroom work. We live in a world on fire. We need to mentor others along and also hear their stories/methods. NorCal Tom, rarin' to get back to the fireline
06/30	To Hon. Mouse, Hey there.. I am just curious as why the R6 contracts or not out yet and why bring ppl from overseas here to fight when we have 200 engines in the Pacific northwent ready to go.. Lets keep US dollars in the US. I mean yeah its nice to have support from other countries BUT I must say that we as contractors are hungry to make money. Yes we have mouths to feed just like anyone else does. But we are fire fighters too.. SO why not they send us.. If anyone has a idea to share email me at fightfire75@hotmail.com.. I guess the next step to to email the USDA rep in Wa DC.. Fightfire75 PS for everyone who is on a fire, BE Safe I can honestly say shelters saved my life. August 13th, 2001 I deployed and made it.
06/30	John, Let us not forget: "Lawn Darts" = Smoke Jumpers "Rotor Toads" = Helitack In regards to classic fire names who can forget the Bald Peter Fire on the Warm Springs Res in '01!? NV 'yote Good job on a personalized moniker, you former "Coyote"you. Ab.
06/30	To Fightfire 75 and Aussies Coming: I also am wondering about importing foreigners when we have people here in the states that are not only ready and willing to go, but also have sizable investments in time, training and money for the occasion. A few years back AD Fallers in Central CA were hit with having to take the pack test in Aug. during our peak fire season. They even stopped a fellow faller enr. to Wyoming and sent him back until he’d taken the pack test. (Note there was no mention of the pack test in our contracts and the subject had never come up until it "instantly" appeared that year.) With USFS personnel so busy on fires few of us got the opportunity to take the test until after fire season was over so we were "out of business" in two of our peak fire months. ----- Firefighters from Australia and Canada were imported during our "waiting-to-take-the-test" time as well as military personnel. Although I didn’t like it, I assumed this was political payback on a national scale as both Australia and Canada were pushing for more extreme gun control as was the US Administration at that time. I could see it as a political "you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours" situation. I can’t even start to guess the what and why of what’s going on here. Puts an unknown meaning to the closing line of EERA contracts that say "Your continued support is greatly appreciated". The Honorable Mouse.
06/30	Re Gov Davis and CDF: The question as to whether the augmentation is due to the fire severity or politics, my belief is it is a little of both. If the Gov were serious about California's Fire Department, He would restore the cuts of the last 25 years to the CDF initial attack system. And people never thought airliners could be crashed into buildings..... ~.~.~.~. On a lighter note - John Macleans' request for fire terms: "The Fellas" or "The Men"...Terms used to describe the CDF inmate firefighters (Orange Herd). "Hunker" ...Lay down and take it easy on the line (out of sight of course). Two clicks on the HT when the DIVS walks by the point man! "Red Army" = CDF "Juice Suckers" ...Base/Camp slugs "Engine Slugs"...Interchangeable term referencing CDF and/or USFS engine crews. Used of course exclusively by Hotshots and CDF FC'B's of the Orange Herd! "The Parent Company"...A vintage term used by old CDFer's to describe the USFS. "Another CDF BC"
06/29	Aussies Coming I have no hard feeling about them coming over. I am a private contractor worker and wonder why us ppl up here in Oregon and Washington are not goin.. I don't think it fair for goin out of country. Hey we are fire fighters here too... I am more than willing to go down and make a few dollars, stay in the USA. Ab can you find numbers for me to call? And as for S-290 I know you can get it on the disc. and take it. Fightfire75 We did find an S-290 ppt. As far as numbers to call, needs to be your dispatching unit. Ab.
06/29	I'd like to look at the results of the testing and the comparisons of all of the fire shelters that were presented to the Federal Fire and Aviation Leadership Council (FFALC). Can anyone tell me where I can find it? Thanks, Firefighter Jane Call any one of the contact people listed at the top of the NIFC News release. You can probably get the info from them. Ab.
06/29	Caught a quick look at a headline this morning. Said Aussies sending fire crews to Arizona to help with wildfires but first wanted assurances against any law suits being brought against them, any truth to this? Sounds like a ripple effect from the Thirty Mile Fire. Mike
06/29	An Aussie torch's day in court: It's useful to remind ourselves that there are those in our firefighting community who may be a few bricks short of a load. Here's an example of Australian justice at work on a despicable series of arson crimes over the last Christmas and New Year's period: http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=302230 - JohnA
06/29	Hey Mike, who sent in the question about S-290. Please contact me. I no longer have your e-mail and someone has written in with info for you. Ab.
06/29	Abercrombie Having had so much fun discussing favorite fire names, how about fire terms? There are lots of fire glossaries on the Internet. But they are short on some of the more descriptive terms: fire virgin, fire weenie, dopes on ropes, and so on (including the memorable acronym for deputy incident commander). (In the interests of full disclosure, I am trying to put together a glossary of fire terms for a new book, this one of fire stories around the theme of the history of wildland fire.) Anybody have any favorite terms to share? Sincerely, John N. Maclean
06/29	Hay Stack Fires: Having gone to many of these calls in the past 20 years, I have found several truths regarding what to do with them. 1. If the stack is on fire and the wind has blown any smoke into the remaining stack the whole stack is gone as far as use for livestock. they will not eat it at all. (right from the ranchers/farmers mouth) 2. Should you be lucky and have the fire at one end of stack, order the front loader (with cage) or bulldozer (with cage) and go to the middle of stack and have the exposure cut in half. 3. Order twice to three times the amount of personnel you have on scene. (you do not need them now but you will) 4. If, after the dozer has solved the exposure problem and the stack is Not 1/2 or one ton bales, your crews you ordered can now go tear the stack apart down to its basic components. (cut the strings, hand tools to make the whole thing about 6 inches high). Have lots of room for this so you do not put any of the good stack in connection with the bad stuff, ruins the stack again. 5. Be prepared to use lots of water, save the foam, waste of money. You will need a nozzle that can fog and have penetration when needed. 6. In my adventures with these they always seemed to happen at night and I almost always got home at dawn. (Hated them with a passion). 7. Be safe around the dozer, it was usually the farmer's and they are not use to working around large groups of people. BC Don Zimmerman (ZIMM)
06/28	The Jobs Page, Job Series 0462 and Series 0455 Pages are updated. Ab.
06/28	Now here are a couple of fire dogs: Tim from the Marin Co FD and Glen from the Kern Co FD are FBAN and SITL respectively. As part of CIIMT 3, Joe Wood's team, they're scouting the Hensel Fire in Wyoming. Some nice photos at this fire site. http://wildfires.nwcg.gov/wyoming/hensel/index.shtml after 06/22. LAC Thanks LAC. You can also get there from the Fire Links, 2002. Ab.
06/28	They Said Folks. Many thanks the helpful replies re: hay bale - hay stack fires. I can tell I touched a nerve. Glad I’m not the only one that dreads the darn things. --- Hay Bale Fire King and respondent avoidance. I’m practicing my agony snivel and death twitch as I type.( I’m an AD so it’s easier to just "not be available", ...... but why take chances?) --- And Capt. Emmitt as Hay Bale Prince (where can I get more info on the "Magic Water" you spoke of?). ---- Mellie making air drops on "a" hay bale must make her Hay Bale Queen. Mellie, I’ve seen a semi truck load of hay going down the road with a top bale smoking like crazy and about to ignite. Are the flyboys and girls any good at moving targets? ----- Ab, you got a wealth of info on this site. All kidding aside, I for one appreciate the heck out of a source to "talk shop" with people that have probably forgotten more about fire fighting than I’ll ever know. - Hope I can return the favor somewhere down the line. ------- And to Mr/Ms Reason: I’m not real sorry you can’t "get into" the low-technical trivia of hay bale fire info on this fire fighting related site. I do like your idea of Hot Shots with pitch forks though. Are there OSHA approved pitch forks out there? Thanks again and BE SAFE all, it’s going to be an interesting year. Honorable Mouse
06/28	Good Morning All - A little opinion piece... Caught CNN on the western fires this morning before starting my day and was pleasantly surprised by their report. It focused on what thinning and burning do to protect against hot burns and why the Forest Service has not been able to do that due to analysis paralysis, and gridlock court appeals by groups who oppose a particular action or any action. I hope that many Americans are watching. These issues need to be more widely revealed. Too bad it takes environmental catastrophe to get the word out. Colorado and Arizona legislators and governors are asking questions and speaking loudly... GOOD FOR THEM! One statistic I didn't know but might have guessed is that 40% of the work of FS prior to fire is paperwork. Makes sense, given all the survey and manage and sierra framework, etc etc that CA has to go through simply for brush disposal and Rx burning... And then there's the constant appeals and court litigation that mean even hazard trees are likely to rot before they can be removed. I'm just waiting for our local Humboldt County environmental group to bring a lawsuit to further slow the work that needs to be done on our northern CA forests. Don't they get it that doing nothing allows us to have the really hot burns that bakes soil and renders wildlands sterile for many years? No habitat for the spotted owl in that ashtray. We need some new Ninth District northern California judges who are willing to educate themselves enough on the fire ecology and fire practices/science to know when and how they are being used by extremists to block worthy action. The shaded fuel break up near Grizzly Camp (Six Rivers NF) knocked the Megram Fire right down. Immediately adjacent to that, however, the forest (formerly 10' diameter fir - LSR) was nuked. Our extremists think that's just fine. No management is good management. Go figure. I honor our democracy (and still consider myself a liberal, a democrat, and an environmentalist), but sometimes lately I feel we all pay the financial and other costs of the extreme minority who have an ax to grind and know how to use the judges and court system to grind it. What a waste of money, time, and resources! Mellie
06/28	Some info on investigations into the Cannon Fire start and the AT crash near Walker: www.rgj.com Firescribe Links to many more articles on the FireNews page. Give it 20 sec to load the most current search. Ab.
06/28	RE: Fireball XL5 on 06/22: While I agree with the general content of your warning message, you also said, “Sometimes it's better to do nothing”. I strongly disagree. Doing “nothing” demonstrates inexperience, lack of information, preparedness, and leadership. During an initial attack yesterday, I heard on the radio from the first engine on scene that they were getting spots behind them and that they had to pull back until additional units arrived on scene to help protect them. Pull back is good. Doing nothing is bad. There is ALWAYS something to do. Find a new anchor, establish a lookout, preplan communications, secure the ignition point, take weather readings. Perhaps a poor choice of words on your part. Always Busy!
06/28	Mike I did a search for S-290 a few months ago with no success. FG
06/28	Re: Anything to do with hay bales! Whoaaa there bubba! Good grief, just found myself looking for the radio dial at 0500 in the am to find out what the price of pork bellies are. Eeeeesh, slow down with this stuff. Dig a big hole in the ground, fill it full of water with all those water carrying resources yer a’hoggin, and use the dozers to push the stacks in. Cover it up with dirt when yer done and go do a Google search for the hee haw web site. What’s next? We gonn’a discuss the flame intensity of dem cornstocks or da ERCs o’ alfalfa? When’s the last time we put jumpers on them hay fields? Air tankers? Air attack on a hay bale? Need some Type 1 Crews? Haw, haw, Hotshots with pitchforks! Ok, I’m done. I’m sure it’s a serious problem in some parts, just not sure I can get into it on this site. Hee, hee, let’s call a Type 2 team in. Reason
06/28	Dear Ab, IR-1 and Mellie, You may have thought "how rude!" You replied promptly to my inquiry and I didn't even take the time to say thank you. Well, I didn't know you had responded until a few minutes ago. I had no idea where to look for the answer! I started playing around with wildlandfire.com again today and then .. there it was!! THANK YOU!!!!! I think I know my way around now and will visit you often. Thanks again. Patrizia
06/28	Hickman, Saw that you were at Coal Seam, sorry to have missed you. I was in camp Sit Unit, you were at the helibase. I think I will end up back in that area soon. IMTs are starting to rotate again. Battalion Chief Don Zimmerman (ZIMM)
06/27	Ab, By now most of you know the Cajon Pass (Interstate 15, north of San Bernardino) area is burning again. Fire started yesterday and is now over 6000 acres with no containment, three structures lost, per LA news. Haystack fires are a pain. Smoke renders the adjacent stack unpalatable for cattle. All the suppression agents I have found, beyond water, will not guarantee the stuff will be safe to feed to anything. The one ton bales seem more prone to spontaneous combustion. For those interested in what is going on with California's budget, the Governor is reinstating 20 million he had cut from CDF for this year. But the legislature must approve the new budget. The threats of IOU's is back after the state got a court ruling saying that government employees should understand that if no budget is passed, there is no money to pay you. The employee association is trying to get the legislature to pass emergency funding so people can keep food on their tables and roofs over their heads. Be safe, summer has a long way to go and the live fuel moistures in a big chunk of the west, are record breaking low (Home Depots lumber is wetter than most live (?) trees. Safety is going to big our biggest job this year. LCES, 10's, 18's, and tailgate briefing need to be priorities. FyrEtr
06/27	Hay that's been doused with fire retardant of any kind is useless for dairy or cattle herds. Bust the bales, spread them and water them down. Make sure the dairyman/rancher knows that there may be some contamination to the wetted hay from past use of the equipment. SITL
06/27	I always call in the air tankers for a hay bale fire, or my Norwegian cousins. <smerk> Mellie I won't tell you what they called me!
06/27	Mouse, Class A foam set at about 1% will do the trick. Also see if the farmer/rancher/dairyman has a hay-squeeze available to him. If you have to bust the stack, I suggest ordering a 2nd alarm for staffing to get the job done ( many hands make light work) Also, the product "Magic Water" works just dandy for these type fires. I'm not sure I would let a stack burn, it is a very valuable commodity to that farmer/rancher/dairyman. You also should plan on an extended commitment, depending on the length and height of the stack, in some of our station's first in areas, they have dairy farms with huge stacks, some 50 to 100' long and 15 or 20' high or more. All of our engines and water tenders carry hay hooks because of the ag nature of the county, one station this year has had 6 hay stack fires!! Hope this helps, Captain Emmett
06/27	To the Honorable Mouse, I've got to agree with Pulaski and say that when called to a hay fire if you can get out of it that would be the thing to do. I've had to fight way more than I can count and the best thing is to cut out what can be salvaged and stir what must be burnt. By far the wildest one that I've been on was a lightning strike into a hay trap that conservatively contained about 4,000 #1500 round bales we ended up sitting with it for 6 days with 5 plows, 4 VFD's with an estimated 14 tenders and brush trucks and the rancher's 3 loaders that were utilized extensively. We had to position a brush truck with every tractor and ensure that no brands started the tractors on fire. Even with those precautions we had to put out dozer fires 6 different times. We had another that only contained about 20 bales and the owner didn't want us to spend the time or materials to sit there and watch them all night so I ended up taking a dozer and stirring them until they broke up and then buried the ash. Stay safe, Keith Since Pulaski is the Hay Bale King then I must just be a lowly prince.
06/27	anyone know where the s-290 course in online? Mike
06/27	Hey Abs and the gang, Just got back from the Hayman fire as a FOBS, I am excited to see that ABC News picked up on the 8000 acre RX burn that was done on the north east side of the fire. It basically ran out of steam when it got to the burn - Imagine that! Also there was a lumber mill that had done considerable thinning on the east flank and guess where the fire laid down when it came ripping (and I do mean ripping) over the ridge?. Hopefully prescribed fire will be front page news (and I don't mean like los Alamos) as this fire season continues. firepup21 center coordinator for the National Interagency Prescribed Fire Training Center, Tallahassee FL PS Check out our website for training opportunities this winter. http://fire.r9.fws.gov/pftc We have that one on the links page under training if you do want to find it this winter. Ab.
06/27	Mouse, Having unfortunate assignments to many hay bale fires here is my # 1 ROT: -if you are aware that is it a hay bale fire before you leave the station, do everything in you power to avoid having to respond...twist your ankle on the way out the door, feign death, what ever it takes!! OK, with that out of the way...and you are stuck going... here is my tried and true methods of engagement (typically I am dealing with the large round bales ~5ft dia and ~5ft long sitting in farm fields) #1- Look the situation over before you do anything, if you come in spraying water you may screw yourself in the long run and end up being stuck there longer (obviously if its really cooking and next to a building or something you have no choice). #2- Separate any bales not on fire far away from the burning ones or suspected burning ones (hopefully the land owner is on hand and has a tractor set up to move bales, otherwise your are in deep doo doo from the start if there is a pile of bales stacked together). #3- If you can, separate the burning stuff/parts from the unburned. Give yourself as much space a possible for the "hot" pile, You need to be real careful as the smallest hot spot can go undetected and get into your "cold" pile and ruin your day. #4- Now, look at amount that is burning, if it is not much and you have time on you hands, letting most of it burn out may be the quickest way to deal with it. If you decide to let much of it burn out, you will need to help it along by fluffing it up to let oxygen get to the inner parts of the hot pile. #5- If you have decided to put it out, now it the time to start applying water/foam (any class A works). Spread the burning hay out as much as possible, use mechanized equipment if needed and available. Otherwise, Mclouds, pitchforks work great, Shovels and pulaskis suck. Keep in mind fluff-spray-spread, fluff-spray-spread. When you think it is all out...do it all over again. The key is the decision to let it burn out or try to put it out right away or let it burn up. I have found that unless it is a very small fire in one bale, it is much quicker to let as much of it burn up (after you have separated) as possible before putting a drop of water on it. As for protecting them from spot fires, I have seen large hay bale piles covered with plastic to help protect it from rain but depending on the size of fire brands it probably isnt going to help much in preventing ignitions. ok, thats about it...for what I know. You have my greatest sympathy Signed, Pulaski - the hay bale fire king
06/27	thanks Islander, exactly what i was looking for. Stay Safe MNFF
06/27	MNFF, The only thing I can add to Islander's list would be some Immodium AD. It comes in real handy when the MRE's hit you!! Onelick
06/27	MNFF Here is the list I give to my engine crews for 14 day assignments. This assumes, though, that you get laundry service where you're going. If you're flying in, you may not get to take as much, but don't short yourself. Islander Islander's List for Mobilization
06/27	Hi All I’m wondering if there is a particular technique or retardants for extinguishing fires in baled hay - or for that matter loose stacks. In particular is there any preparations a stockman can make to protect haybarns and haystacks from spot fires ? In experiments I’ve found "wet water" was a help but you still needed to gouge out the burning hay as it would often re-ignite given a little time. Thanks, The Honorable Mouse.
06/27	FYI Noon day report: San Bernardino Forest {BDF} has had 4 class D fires since June 3rd in the Cajon Pass area of the Forest for a total of 18,000 acres. This figure include the in-progress Incident named Louisiana burning on both sides of the pass @ this time. Danny
06/27	From Firescribe: Could the nation finally be waking up to what it needed to manage fire on the interface? Little Fires to End Big Fires (opinion) www.csmonitor.com Fight Fire With Fire (opinion) www.sacbee.com Prescribed Burns Pay Off (good management as a result of the National Fire Plan) abcnews.go.com
06/27	Hello Ab, I was wondering to what degree you think Gov Davis' recent allocations of $$ for firefighters is political vs just in response to the dangerous fire season. I thought I heard that there were supposed to be firefighters on those engines earlier. Maybe I'm wrong on that. My brother is a firefighter but has recently gone to Colorado so I can't ask him. Sam, (Ab, Don't know if you will post this. I'm an interface homeowner and I've done my best to make my home safe.) Any CDF readers or others in the know? Ab.
06/27	Hi all, I am getting ready to go out west for my first "big" fire and I am wundering what I should take in my red bag. I saw the list for the line pack but I was wundering how much and what you take in terms of clothes personal items etc. that are not carried on the line. Thank you stay safe, MNFF List for the line pack can be found under FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions). Readers, anything to add to this? Ab.
06/27	Bulldozers and the US Forest Service By Sarah Foster © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com When the U.S. Forest Service asked Ron Largent, general manager of a major gold-mining operation in Colorado, for the use of some extra-heavy equipment to fight the Hayman fire, he was more than happy to help. Cutting strings and red tape.............. www.worldnetdaily.com John
06/27	Hello from hazy southern Colorado. Finally got an IA dispatch today, who cares if it was a false alarm! Got us out of our rut and onto the pavement. I was impressed with what they'll dispatch in the Extreme action class... a couple of engines, Air Attack platform, bucket ship, and a jump plane, though I don't know how many sticks of jumpers were on board. Got to watch a spectacular thunderstorm develop here today, we'll go check for holdover tomorrow. Another afternoon of hide and seek. But back to the original intent of my post... 1/4 TURN! Being a DNR boy, those fittings are near and dear to my heart... You can put 'em together in the dark, when they're dirty, it doesn't matter how you throw out the hose, field repair couplings are cheap and easy to come by, drag 'em around the pavement/rocks/etc. and no threads will be damaged, no adapter needed to hook up 1.5" to 1", need I go on? I was going to say "tell them to quit their whining about the cost", get some adapters, and start replacing threaded with 1/4 turn, but on second thought, you "threaded" folks keep buying that stuff. That way when we want to buy more 1/4 turn, it won't be back-ordered. *grin* Speaking of hose, anyone have the chance to try the 1" toy hose? I used a demo piece last year. Doesn't snag, kink, or blow out as often as the old stuff. My understanding is we'll be purchasing it instead of 5/8" from now on. Anyway, sorry to ramble on so long. It's still hot, dry, and windy here in CO, so don't be fooled into thinking you're not going to be invited to the party, just because one large fire is getting taken care of. Things are still hopping. REALLY hopping. Look Up, Look Down, Look Around, ~FireBill
06/27	Greetings: For those that have loved ones on crews from the east, the EACC has the IARR Crew Status Reports online now at http://www.fs.fed.us/eacc/iarr.rtf Shep
06/27	Ab- I suspect that Region 5 Fire & Aviation did not know there was a problem with the web pages, as everything works fine if you are on a Forest Service machine. Hopefully the pages can get fixed as they have been visible on the FS side with updated information all week. -22
06/27	when i inquired if continuous hours of driving to a wildland fire is restricted by the fire agencies, i was accussed of being a member of a rival fire response company. actually, i am a firefighter's wife and when any fire related injury or death occurs, my first question is "can we prevent this from happening tomorrow by reviewing the safety factors today so other families won't have to needlessly suffer? we have received the fire calls at midnight when my husband is told to be ready at 4 a.m. does he sleep between midnight and 4? heck no, his mind is already at the fire, thinking about what is ahead of him and what his job (which he loves) will require him to do. unlike a local fire company that responds to a fire in a shorter span of time, wildland firefighters are responding from miles and hours away. it was finally recognized in emergency wards that patient care was impaired when staff would work several continuous shifts. when firefighters are responding from miles and hours away, their safety is impaired on the already dangerous highways if the crew has not had sufficient rest time during their journey to the fire. the van rollover was a tragic accident and as with any other injury/death accidents, my condolences go to the family, friends, and fellow firefighters of the victims. i would hope that at some point, the safety issue will be reviewed and possible solutions can be found. DVE I stand by my comment. Ab.
06/26	Wildland firefighters, if you have favorite t-shirt vendors who create shirts for different fires and ship around the country, let us know how to get in touch with them to see if they want to take a classified ad. We're getting LOTS of requests for fire t-shirts. Ab.
06/26	Just a note to update you about the Cleveland Engine rollover. The injured firefighter will probably be out the rest of the summer. He has several screws and a plate in his injured leg. Everyone else involved should be back at work by Friday. The engine, on the other hand, didn't make it. For all of you who aren't familiar with the Ortega Highway where the accident occurred, it is a nasty, treachorous stretch of roadway, and we are very fortunate that this accident wasn't much worse. Our thanks to RRU for everything. Their FIO was wonderful in taking on the media, and the crews that responded did an awesome job. Stay safe out there, NOTHING is worth your life. Getting there safely is just as important as your safety once you arrive. 10-18, LCES, Socal Dispatcher Good news. Thanks for the update. Ab.
06/26	Dear Abe: A long, hot, dry, stressful summer is ahead for our firefighters. Already, the "Grim Reaper" has started making the rounds and this is not good news. GGP
06/26	Dear Ab, I'm looking for info or help on getting the R5 fire pages repaired. For the past week none of the R5 links on their home page, www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ will work using Internet Explorer. My friends can get them to work using Netscape and Opera Browsers, but I don't have any of those. I've emailed the listed webmaster for the pages, chiggins<snip>, twice, but to no avail. I even gave them the location of help pages to fix the errors, which probably put me on their sh*t list......LOL. I use the Situation Report pages to see the fires that my brother, a USFS captain in the Angeles National Forest, has been sent to. Is there any other way to get their attention and get the pages fixed? Thanks for any help you can give, PC Hmmmmmm, I see what you mean, some message about detecting proxy settings. There must be some readers from those offices who could help out. Go on you guys, help chiggins out! Probably overwhelmed with work as the rest of us are. Ab.
06/26	G’day again Abs, hope you're not stretched too thin & there are the usual feelings from here as were yours at Xmas – “how can we get there & help?” One question re evacuation of civilians. Having seen the footage of the evacuation of Show Low, I’m curious why this is being done. Our EMA has found that leaving residents with their homes has proved to be an effective measure against losing homes to the fires. The qualifier is that the homes need to be prepared, i.e. defensible space of cleared space around the home, gutters cleared of leaves etc. By all means, get the aged/infirm & kids out of the way early, but our experience is that most homes are lost hours after the front has moved on and remaining embers have started fires that are left unattended causing the loss of the home. In fairness the traditional Aussie house is of brick & tile construction, whereas in the affected areas wood seems to be the preferred construction method. Is this a factor? Also are the Canadairs getting any work on the Hayman or Rodeo fires? Had the marketing push here coupla months ago just curious if they are being committed in the remote areas. Regards, OB Australia (whose country code is 61 if you need bods, trucks, rain (if we can!!), just call)
06/26	Bill M. You may have seen that the fed agencies were set to adopt quarter turn couplings (QTC) this year, but they dropped that like a hot rock when all the managers and local fire depts. screamed about the cost. So NH and NPSH are still the official fed couplings. Only the Washington DNR and local fire depts. in Washington use the QTC, and they got the idea (and the couplings) from CA. So, yes they are the same. islander
06/26	The entire CDF exec order from Gov Davis can be read at http://www.fire.ca.gov/ Dave
06/26	AL and others interested in CDF fire budget woes, you may know this already, but maybe not... There was an article yesterday that said we should get paid our same salaries as before -- and not the minimum wage even if there is no budget by July 1. All may remember that some CA court had ruled that state employees would get paid minimum wage if there is no budget by July 1. That wage ruling is evidently going to the CA supreme court and, while it is undecided, payment can continue as normal. Payments to state vendors can continue too, but may stop if the budget isn't approved by August. CDF SoCal
06/26	CDF Fire update: Calif Gov Davis signed an executive order for additional firefighting resources for SoCal. A minimum of 4 firefighters will be assigned to crews in Tulare, San Luis Obispo, San Diego, San Bernardino, Fresno and Riverside counties. A fourth firefighter will be assigned in Los Angeles, Orange, Kern, Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties when needed. In my opinion, about time. Davis also ordered CDF Fire to speed up fire safety inspections and authorized activation of 10 fire lookouts in NorCal. He called for implementation of the Aerial Infrared Imaging System (AIRIS) for flying and imaging fireline and hotspots. The cost will be between 8 and 10 million dollars, in my opinion a small amount when compared to possible losses in this very dry season. Again, about time. AL
06/26	An arrest on the ShowLow fire is not for arson. GH
06/26	Info40: Check your sources. Two Calif Hotshot crews are assigned to the Rattle Complex- Kern and Redding. The Shoe
06/26	Couplings: Bill M. I was asked that question a few years ago by one of my managers. Said "I don't know, I guess I will have to take a road trip up to BC and find out." He said "go to it." Well, we took a nice drive to see the folks at BC Forestry, spent about 10 minutes trying different couplings from each side of the border, about 2 hours catching up on the latest news, went to lunch and then home. Oh, I forgot to tell the boss that all the 1/4 turn we have says: "Made in Canada", but I had to go north just to make sure. I do not know if there are any other styles or types of 1/4 turn couplings used by other agencies then WADNR and BC Ministry of Forests, but I know the fittings I have used for the past 25 years will fit the ones in BC. Nozzle Man
06/26	sir/madam: While watching the fires on the news lately, i am amazed that someone has not come up with a hightech way to combat the fires.... a thought: Has the government or forest industry looked into using a similiar weapon they used in Afganistan. It was a devise they exploded in caves that removed the oxygen. Has or could a similiar devise be used on a forest fire? Pat Kane
06/26	LB, If your dispatching unit knows they're ready, that's about it. R6 Dispatcher
06/26	Great Basin Firefighter, Many states have laws that increase penalties in the case where there is a death that is associated with the commission of a felony. In some states it can equate to a 1st degree murder charge, but not in Colorado. In Colorado it can lead to reckless endangerment charges which can be substantiated when there is a death. 6
06/25	You might want to check out familysaid for a picture of the new fire shelter and other information on it. Thanks to Robbie, whose sister is a wildland firefighter, for sending it in. Ab.
06/25	Response to LB, I also have a R6 Contract and am patiently waiting to help. The problem the agencies have is not enough managers to manage the resources available. We could all pack up and go to the incident and throw a whole lot of resources at the fire front (or in the case of AZ 2 miles from the front) and we might be successful in putting it out!! But I guarantee you that without sufficient support staff to do this in an organized fashion many more would die... and we would waste alot of resources by not being organized. It sounds like they are adding another type 1 incident team and with that comes managers to manage resources such as ours. I know of some R6 contractors that just left without dispatch and are on the fire line getting paid, but they call that fire chasing (unethical) and my company frowns on that practice. All I can say is to sit tight, be ready, make sure your equipment is ready to go, pray for those on the fire line and pray for your own safety if you go, if things get bad enough they will call you! Remember it is only July 1st, things are going to get allot worse!! I think the Rodeo fire will not be a record for this summer as far as acreage goes. Response to $$, I don't care who started the fire in CO. Person or lighting, the problem is not the one with the match because, as dry as things are, it is not a matter of if things are going to burn, it's a matter of when! We as citizens should be tallying up the cost of these fires, the deaths, and bring a suit against the environmentalists who constantly stop or tie up fuel treatments and commercial thinning on our lands. This has got to stop!!! or our forest will continue to burn unless we do something!! I know of many logging units that have more surviving species then what is left over after a burn like these. Just shooting off my humble opinion!! AJM Shall we name him fireMouth? Tongue in cheek. Ab.
06/25	BLMBob. Steven Pyne, the silly, he left out the ultimate answer for eliminating the fire threat to our nations wildlands, something I first heard in the '70's when I worked in Southzone R-5. "PAVE IT AND PAINT IT GREEN"!!! Gotta give the guy credit though he did mention the dreaded "L" word in his commentary. "Hee-Hee, he said LOGGING." Gotta use your Beavis - Butthead voice when you say that last line. Later and B_SAFE Backburnfs
06/25	Cold Missouri Waters in MP3 format can be downloaded at: www.keelaghan.com/missouri.mp3 Pulaski Ab note: Thanks Pulaski. The size is 3508K so it will take a little time, but is worth the wait if you don't already have it.
06/25	Memorial Fund Established for Firefighters Killed in Van Roll-over A memorial fund has been established for individuals and groups wishing to contribute to the families of the five firefighters killed last Friday in an accident near Glenwood Springs, Colorado. Grayback Forestry, Inc. established the memorial fund through the Wildland Fire-Fighter Foundation to honor Daniel Rama, Baker City, Oregon; Retha Shirley of La Grande, Oregon; Bartholomew Bailey, Baker City, Oregon; Jacob Martindale, Boise, Idaho; and Zachary Zigich, Twin Falls, Idaho. Donations can be made to any U.S. Bank location, account number: 153315069551, the foundation website, www.wffoundation.org, or sent to the foundation at 1310 Vista Avenue, Boise, Idaho 83705. Donations can be specified for individual families. For more information, contact Vicki Minor at 208-424-1111 or visit the website. Angelica G. Johnson Wallowa-Whitman National Forest, Public Affairs agjohnson@fs.fed.us
06/25	Can you provide the pertinent specification # for the Quarter Turn Forestry couplings used in the USA? How do they compare to the Canadian Quarter Turn Forestry coupling specifications? Thank you for your assistance. Bill M
06/25	My husband works for AAA Thunderbolt, signed up with R6 Malheur National Forest. They really want to help. They have been watching the fires on the media and don't know why they haven't been called to help. They have 8 trucks and crews ready to roll. Is there anything more to do to let it be known they're ready and raring to go? Thank You, LB
06/25	Greetings AB & fellow brothers & sisters... * I have a question that I am hoping someone can answer...I know that when a fire is deemed "human-caused" the person responsible (intentional or not) for causing the ignition is at risk for the likelihood of being held financially responsible for the cost of the fire suppression. But, if firefighters or the public are hurt/killed either en route to, actually on or as a result of that fire, can the person responsible for starting the fire also be held responsible for the casualties? Frankly put...can Terry be held responsible for the deaths of the 4 fire fighters who were responding to the Hayman Incident, or the 50-year old woman who died due to the smoke of the Hayman Fire (and her asthma)? *Also, for those brothers & sisters who are fighting the massive fire in Arizona...I have family who had to leave their home behind and get to a safer place...a huge THANK YOU in advanced for your efforts despite the grim speculations on the outcome. *My husband tells me, when one of us walks out the door to respond to a fire..."Before you make any suppression tactics, instill your 10 & 18, and base it on your LCES. In doing this, you won't get into trouble, and you'll come back home." It sounds simple I know...but it's so important to remember this in the heat of the battle. There are a lot of new people in supervisory positions this year out on the fireline, and to all of you...one of the most important things you can teach your crew besides safe suppression tactics... is what to do IF something goes to hell on you unexpectedly (they are never foreseen but you can be prepared). Practice your engine protection skills, and do it often. When things are slow, play the "What If" game, make sure your crew will be safe. It's probably one of the most important pieces of information you can pass on to them. They look up to you for guidance, and are hungry for more knowledge, use that opportunity to make them the best that they can be. I am not sure if you all are familiar with the song "Cold Missouri Waters" about the Man Gulch Fire, but every time my crew & I get released from a fire (no matter how big or small) we always play that song...it helps us to remember that our current safety guidelines are in place because someone else did not come home one night to their family. Our job is just as dangerous as it always has been in the past, and every year we grieve the loss of brothers/sisters who die doing a job they are stoked about being a part of and knowing all to well, the risks that are at stake. Does this make it any easier to accept? No... Does it justify the mourning and sadness we experience each season? No, but we can learn from these tragedies, make sure their deaths are not in vain or forgotten, ensure our safety is never compromised, and that <YOUR NAME HERE> is never placed on our wall of Remembrance, or final details of your memorial service are being posted. Next time you have a day off and are home with your loved ones, embrace them tight, hold them close and tell them how much you love them. Remember how good it feels. Keep it in your mind when you are rushing out the door to fight a fire. Make it your goal to return to them. And make it your goal to come back to WILDLAND FIRE.com at the end of the season to share your stories, wisdom and understanding to the crazy world that we all love..."chasing the dragon the roams our lands with massive destruction." I did not intend for this post to sound negative, I along with the rest of you find this line of work fulfilling and can't imagine spending my long, hot summer days & nights doing anything else, but if you are unsure about anything... ASK! And if you don't feel 100% "safe" on an assignment, REFUSE! I promise, nobody will look down on you for wanting to stay safe & alive. *May you all have a safe, fun and prosperous summer. 10, 18 & LCES, ~*~Great Basin Firefighter~*~
06/25	IR1, Those were my symptoms exactly! I had trouble not thinking about fire for more than about 2 minutes at a time. One psychologist suggested my brain had been rewired during my multi-month exposure to fire and smoke. One person said that many in my condition and with my background joined the 180 Club as their lives were changed forever. They said the smokejumpers had the most members in this club... Well, the support I received from Ab, R5 Firecapt, Hickman, WP, Old Fire Guy, the webgoddess, and others at this site certainly helped me past the early stages of my smoke/fire exposure syndrome. My life has indeed been turned around - no regrets. I am a participating member of the 180 Club. For a short time, I considered that some of us should organize a scientific study that could show if/how firefighter brains were rearranged by smoke/fire exposure. Then I decided <naw> I'd rather handle a Pulaski <smirk> than catscans, other scientific instruments, and records, and analysis <boring>. Patrizia, there are people studying the effects of inhaling smoke, one guy at Harvard School of Public Health - Joel Schwartz - has studied the effects of particulate matter in smoke with an eye to its carcinogenic nature. If you get one or more of his articles, I'm sure you'll have a ballooning reference list to explore. Air quality is one of the leading areas of research these days. Also Roger Ottmar in the Seattle area has done some work. IR1-2 (aka Mellie) More coming, lemme go look on the net... Ab add this please... Go to Google search. Enter smoke and ottmar as keywords. A whole wealth of good and current research, including "Smoke Exposure on Prescribed Burns".
06/25	For Patrizia Palla who is researching the effects of smoke: The consequences of smoke inhaled by firefighters are varied and multiple. Here are a few symptoms of smoke inhalation I’ve suffered or observed in others that I consider fairly common. · Soon after returning home from their first smoke inhalation incident the victim may appear anxious and impatient. They may even confide a secret desire to experience a repeat episode. · Friends or family members who have not experienced their own smoke exposures are unable to effectively communicate with the victim. · The victim may suffer extreme mood swings, at times expressing high levels of excitement as they try to relay their experiences to others, then various levels of depression as they are unsure of the duration of time until the next exposure. · After multiple exposures to equal or higher concentrations of smoke, many victims are known to exhibit irrational periods of frustration and anger even though they are allowed to remain home for extended periods of time with family and loved ones. During the most pronounced episodes the victim may display evidence of paranoia wherein they wildly begin blaming co-workers, supervisors, dispatchers, or others for preventing additional exposures. · With the onset of winter or rainy season, these same victims may suffer an additional short-term depression with the realization they will be free from exposure for several months. As they learn to accept this reality, they normally return to their previous gentle and happy demeanor. There are some however, whom never seem to reach a level of saturation or contentment and will do anything or go anywhere in search of additional exposure. There is no known cure to offer those who experience their first smoke exposure that will prevent them from seeking more. Little is known about why or how they can be immediately and hopelessly addicted (even with just one short exposure). Long time friends can be cast aside and families destroyed by the victim’s obsession and their relentless quest for another “fix”. I offer these humble observations in the hope that your friend’s thesis shed some wisdom and hopefully enlighten us all, that we may better understand how to cope with current and future victims. IR1
06/25	To me, Steven Pyne usually makes good sense. He's one of our own of course, but as a historian, he has a long-range perspective that is really interesting. In this NY Times editorial, he takes a clear view, free of hype, hysteria, and agendas. In particular, I like where he says America doesn't have a fire problem, it has many fire problems that require complex approaches. It's a good antidote to listening to clueless politicians, news announcers, and commentators asking inane questions about fires. Recommended reading: www.nytimes.com/2002/06/25/opinion/25PYNE.html (Requires no-cost registration with the NY Times) BLM Bob
06/25	Info40 - 1) Might check the fire danger in R5. Might be its a just bit high. 2) IF a fire went and all the crews were in AZ watching the fire burn, where might R5 find a crew or two? (12 fires for 2000+ acres in SO. Cal yesterday). 3) R5 shot crews are much more part of the IA response than in other regions, and at current Planning Levels it just might behoove the prudent fire manager to have a couple around per their response plans. 4) Might be those R5 and NIFC folks know exactly what they are doing. Might be that action is debatable either way, but they made it and it seems reasonable to me. Type I crews are always in short supply at times like this, and if all were committed, they would still be in short supply. It ain't fun sitting at home guarding the home turf from the "big one" but, like mop up, that is part of the job sometimes. And if were to see "abuse" whatever that means, the press, NBC or any one else would be last ones I would call. In fact I wouldn't call 'em at all. For WEB - Rotorwash? Hook? RemoteHook?, Chinbubble? Turbine? Blades. Bed time, olddog
06/25	Officer A. Moos - In regards to your 6/19 post, I think good news may be on the way. I have it on good authority that FEMA is working on releasing some standard ICS guidance for all-risk use, in response to all kinds of incidents. In reality, the system was actually developed for all-risk use, but was largely tailored by wildfire use during its development as there were so many wildfires available for testing the system in southern California, where it was developed. It has of course been used for all kinds of law enforcement and other uses, including OK City, WTC and the Pentagon incidents, floods, hurricanes, airplane crashes, oil spills, hazmat, etc etc., but this may not be widely known. Anyway, the direction from Bush's proposed Dept. of Homeland Security mandates one standard incident management system for the entire government, which will hopefully be ICS. The Coast Guard already uses it, and the USDA and DOT may be on their way. Both the White House and FEMA Web sites have some information on this, and information on money planned for local governmnent and first responder use. Bottom line, streamlining emergency response could have a significant impact on mitigating incidents and saving lives, etc. and ICS has well proven itself. My heart has been heavy since hearing of the tanker crash last week, and the numerous incidents and deaths since. A community I used to live in is burning up as we speak, and I think often of the crazy risks wildland firefighters take that are not understood, or dare I say, appreciated by the taxpayer?. My thoughts are with the entire community as you grieve lost friends and family, and as you fight like hell to save a town or a home. I used to say we were different than structure firefighters, that we don't save lives and homes, but I think that was my naivete coming through. If this season doesn't prove beyond a doubt that "we're all real goddam firefighters" then I don't know what would. I am sick to my stomach to hear of firefighter deaths, and furthermore to think that most of us are seasonal, no benefits, no year-round employment, with incredibly low pay compared to paid structure departments. I'm not sure what it takes to move forward from here, but you can believe I'll be looking for answers where I can. I have no doubt in my mind this season has only just begun... posted fire danger conditions in several of the GACCs forecast extreme conditions, and at the beginning of a very long and tiring summer. PLEASE be careful out there. All indications are that this is a once-in-a-lifetime season. No home is worth dying for, no emergency is worth getting burned, and people are. Take care-- -from the concrete boondocks out yonder
06/25	Ab i wanted to say thank you for keeping up this site. I also wanted to say thank you to every one that writes in. I am a daughter and wife of firefighters and i come to this site to get comfort and information from this site. thanks Genia
06/25	Ab, sorrow, grief, and prayers are all coming from the S. Front this evening. we have dealt with many tragedys this week, and can only hope that there are no more to come this wild fire season. Although it is only june, I can only hope that all of us out there keep one foot in the black and come home to our loved one's every night (of when ever is possible). Please every one, use your heads, and not your check books to decide on what's right to do. The couple of extra hours of driving or digging on the line are NOT WORTH what could happen!.................(I'll get into what we were hired to do and what we were hired to not do later)! Please be smart/safe Irate
06/25	A fifth member of the Grayback crew died today. May he rest in peace. www.denverpost.com The company owner is quoted as saying "We felt we had one of the best safety policies in the industry, and we're just going to upgrade that and go from there." and the story goes on to state "The crew was on what was to be a 30-hour nonstop drive from Oregon." In an other article the first fatality from Hayman has been documented. Real sad story. www.denverpost.com The Colorado State Attorney General is looking into filing charges against Ms. Barton. If she is tried and convicted of a felony in a state court, there can be 6 six deaths that could now be associated with that felony. I know that I am preaching to the choir, but if you are dispatched to a fire here in Colorado: - The fire conditions beyond crazy. Keep your heads up! - Enjoy the state. It is still beautiful here. - Have some fun, make some money, bring a camera. - Have a SAFE trip home at the end of a SAFE tour. - Thanks for the help, we really appreciate it this year! Sorry about the lecture, 6
06/24	On the evening news the announcer said that there were going to be 4 Type 1 Incident Management Teams on the joined Rodeo-Chediski fires and that was the most ever. Teams are Humphrey, Bateman, Dash and Martin. Does anyone know if this is true that it's the most? Wonder how the politics are with that arrangement. I remember how hard it was to have 2 on the bigbar. Jim
06/24	Looking for the whereabouts of the midewin hot shot crew. Any ideas? Have a family member on the crew. Whit
06/24	thanks Fireronin, for your time and insight. pb
06/24	This is one side of the story, here's the Terry that family and friends know: www.washingtonpost.com
06/24	Just to let everyone know, the Firefighter that was hurt on the Rodeo Fire, was released from the hospital with 2nd and 3rd degree burns. According to Fox news. Driftsmoke
06/24	Connie Chung is interviewing the Barton family tonight. It's reported that they want to be supportive of Terry. CNN, 8PM Eastern, 5 PM Pacific. I hope the family is ready for this. Usually the procedure for such an interview is that the interviewees receive interview questions ahead of time which they mentally prepare for. Some years ago a friend of mine being interviewed by Connie got his list and prepared, but then Connie deviated and threw him a curve... Not a completely wildhair question, but enough to make him anxious in front of the cameras. He is a renowned scientist. Doesn't do anxious very well. Maybe that curve was added in an attempt to make things appear more "spontaneous". I considered it an underhanded journalistic ploy at the time. Hope that doesn't happen tonight. Different network, different policies? Hopefully not the same MO. We need clarity and fairness not some anxious answer that prejudices the Public for the sake of selling a few more commercials. On another note, how about some more interesting monikers. WEB has the right idea Ab... Could have some new ones come out of this "big fire"... BentColumn, Anvil, 200000Feet, Burnout, Ash, Cinder, Torch, CrownFire (may have one of those), Coyote (definitely already taken), HeadLamp, RedBag, Combi'Tool <little madonna smile>. Aghhhhh, stop! I think people should get creative. Forget those initials, Ab! O'course, I'd hate to see some of my favorite initials change to monikers... Maybe we should come up with good monikers and have a list so people can choose... Ab, whatcha think? Can you tell I'm looking for a little lightness and humor? Mellie Ab sez "Sure."
06/24	TK posted a statement that the rate of firefighters involved in motor vehicle accidents was lower than that of the general public. Would that it were so! Motor vehicle accidents consistently rank #2 (behind heart attacks) as the chief cause of firefighter fatalities. Take a look at the stories www.firehouse.com/lodd. It is bad enough that NIOSH published a bulletin this year, specifically regarding tender accidents, which continue to rate even higher proportionally in killing and injuring firefighters. View it at www.cdc.gov/niosh/truckroll.html . While I agree that we should not be in a rush to blame anyone for the most recent accident, I think that eveyone should recognize that a "heads-up" attitude is needed on the roads, too. sign me "islander" I took what TK said to mean that firefighters on highways/roadways have fewer vehicular accidents under normal conditions when compared to the general public on similar highways/roadways under similar normal conditions. It's clear that wildland firefighters driving on wilderness roads and singletracks under smoky conditions, etc have more accidents and fatalities than the general public, in part because of the dangerous conditions, not because they're worse drivers. Water tenders are big and wide and heavy, which might put them at even more risk than other vehicles for rollover. Less margin for error in hooking that rear wheel on the shoulder. Anybody know where motor vehicle accidents rank in terms of causes of the general public's fatalities? Could they be the biggest killer? We need to be careful at all times when driving, but particularly when driving under extreme conditions off the beaten paths and particularly when driving large and/or unfamiliar vehicles. TK, comments? Ab.
06/24	PB, Unless equipment needs to be transported it is SOP for govt. entities to fly firefighters to the airport nearest the incident they are assigned to if it is a long distance. Sometimes even when equipment needs transport it is loaded on flatbeds or trains and shipped to the incident. I think that is rare. Some employers try to save money by sending as many firefighters along with equipment as possible. I have seen as many as four packed in a front seat that only had two seatbelts. Bad policy! Also rare. Govt. entities usually get cut rate flight prices. Private contractors rarely get flight discounts so they tend to send crews to incidents via road trip more than the Feds. or States. I have no problem with driving to a distant incident...as long as laws are not broken and safety procedures are followed. In most states all front seat passengers must have a seat belt available for use...some states require its' use. Many states require a "chauffeurs" lisc. when driving with passengers for pay. Personally I find it near impossible to rest decently sitting in a moving vehicle. As such I don't believe that simply switching drivers regularly is a safe practice. The "fresh" driver could be as fatigued as the one being replaced. Safe driving is more than not falling asleep at the wheel...it involves being alert. Being alert requires rest...real rest. If you are driving impaired from lack of rest...you are endangering not only yourself, but your passengers and the public as well. 8 hours in a motel room every 24 hours might be a good standard...but 4 hours on the ground might me a good minimum. If you have to pull off into a rest stop and lay out your bed rolls for a few hours to remain alert please do it. I want to restate that I am not implying anything bad about Grayback or its' policies. Nor am I pointing fingers at the driver or passengers that were involved in our latest tragedy. I am simply taking this opportunity to answer PB's question as best I can and hoping that any discussion will lead to a greater level of safety for my brother and sisters on, and on their way to, the fireline. There was an earlier post about how it was difficult for ICs to determine how long incoming firefighters had been without rest. I would suggest that polling them as they arrive about when they left and where they rested prior to arriving would not be all that difficult. Of course Portal to Portal Pay for all firefighters (including private contractors and ADs) would be a policy that would encourage all firefighters to get adequate rest prior to arriving at the incident and going on active duty. Of course there would still be some that would be so gung ho to get to the fire that they would push themselves and those around to abandon some safety guidelines. Sometimes staying safe means saying no. Fireronin
06/24	First firefighter injured on the fireline in AZ. Extent and cause of injuries are unknown. VG
06/24	Greetings Ab, Wow, is this ironic! From the upcoming events on the FireWise web site: --------------------- June 29 White Mountain Regional Firewise Workshop Sponsor: White Mountain Apache Tribe and the Pinetop Fire Department Sponsor address: 1845 S. Pinelake RD, Pinetop, AZ 85935 Time: 7:30 am - 12:30 pm Location: Hondah Casino and Convention Center Event Cost: $10.00 Brief Directions: 3 Miles east of Pinetop AZ at the Junction of Highways 260 and 73. Description: Sponsored by the White Mountain Apache Tribe Fire and Rescue and the Pinetop Fire Department with additional support by the Arizona State Land Dept., Navajo County Extension Services and the U.S. Forest Service. ---------------------------- Unimog1201
06/24	Why are all the R-5 Hotshot/MEL Crews Sitting While AZ Burning? Just found out there are over 280 outstanding crew orders sitting at NIFC but the R-5 crews are sitting. They "appear" to be committed to a local fire on the Sit300 report but when you call and ask them what they are doing theyre all at home. Huh!?!? As a TAX payer this irritates me to no end. Something should be said about this and it should be looked into. If you know of any abuse please report it. Better yet go to a local AZ media site and report it. NBC in Phoenix would like to know about this. Info40
06/24	Memorial services over the weekend for the three AT firefighters who died in the downed C-130 on the Cannon Fire. On Sat a memorial for all three at the Douglas High School football field. www.rgj.com Also a very nice memorial yesterday for Steve Wass, captain -- at the Minden-Tahoe Airport. The Jimi Hendrix rendition of the Star Spangled Banner was awesome and so appropriate for Steve. www.nevadaappeal.com All three will be missed. J
06/24	I have a different perspective on DVE's previous post. I believe DVE is just looking for answers like the rest of us. Nobody can tell me they haven't thought the same thing or had the same questions. I do not believe DVE meant to be malicious. DVE just chose to express those thoughts while the rest of us sit and ponder the same unanswered questions. We all express our grief differently. It's time for everyone to lighten up! Let's be supportive of each other instead of taking out our frustrations on each other for the way we express ourselves in this forum (even if it is sometimes done poorly). IA Dispatcher
06/24	Here are several "slurry" fighter/bomber bomber aircraft taken at Jeffco Airport Broomfield, CO on 6/21/02. You can put these on your website if you want. Very nice website by the way! Scott Thanks, put 'em on the AirTanker4 and AirTanker5 photo pages. Ab.
06/24	Bonjour, I was F/O on a Canadian A/C under subcontractor ops. for flight test, air show demonstration, plus I collaborated in Greece for water bombing with a355 MTM Hellenic air force (squadron). I am sending in some photos. If you make me small place in your site for more, I will fill that place. Some to come later are an air show in Istanbul, some in Ankara, from Elefsina Greece, Zagreb and Zadard in Croatia and a picture of a Big chopper (skycrane). Real one, huge fire, low pass, and more. Any way to get money from it? My English is not too good because I am French Canadian, Quebec part. The first two photos I sent were taken in Athens 2000 and I have more. Look at the downwash of that one helicopter. Thank for your time and interest and if you decide to go ahead with a place for me you have to correct the text. Pierre Hamel Nice photos Pierre. I did correct your English a bit, but you did well. I will email you about sending more photos. I put the first two from Greece on the AirTanker 5 photo page and the third one on the Helocopter 7 photo page. Readers, can anyone fill in any more about the ship on Air5? Ab.
06/24	Hello Abs: Sitting around with the day off today while waiting for that engine assignment from here to there somewhere and browsed thru a grocery sack of old photos, and came across these among others. I,m not real great at scanning and mailing, but here goes. #1 Hover hook by N.Carolina Forestry. The guy in the open door was the signalman and talked to the pilot. #2 S-58 (?) Brainard Helis getting ready for a pick. #3 Houeston Helis 212 in conference #4 Crescent Airways 206 B3 on floats. The first 3 shots were taken on a fire in the glades sometime around '87 or '88 . The 206 on floats was taken in Minnesota where the Superior N.F. had a 100 day exclusive use contract from around '81-93 ? That ship also was contracted to Everglades N.P. for the winter season . Will send more shots later as I find them. Also limit to 3 or 4 scans at a time so my ISP doesn't kick me out. Edit this as you wish.. thanks, WEB PS give me a name of your choosing! Thank YOU, WEB. Put them on the Helocopter7 page. Also put up a helitorch image "Torchin on the Colville Rez Spring '02" from Charles. So ya want/need a moniker, eh? How about something connected with your helo work on fire? Like AirSupport or RotorWash or BucketDrop or Bambi? <HAR> Readers -- and I can think of a few of you who are waaaaaaay too good at monikers -- got any ideas what I should baptize him with? Must be "clean"... I know that might be a stretch. Suggestions can always be passed around off the record. More photos in other categories coming soon. We'll need to update the dropdown menu on the left of all photo pages, but that may take a little time until the appropriate Ab returns. To find the new photo pages not on the dropdown menu, simply go to the Photo page. All categories are listed there on the grid and on the photo description pages grids. Ab.
06/23	Hi Ab, Just a question and a comment or two. Does anyone know where you can send cards etc. for the Grayback firefighters? Being a mother and mother-in-law of 3 wildland firefighters and a mother who had one son die at Storm King in 94, I think the main thing people should remember is that the families need your prayers, letters, cards, and special memories. There is no such thing as closure; you learn to live with it. It is always in the back of your mind everyday. I hate it when the media say they need to find closure and I have told more than one of them there is no such thing. Most of the media were very good to us and quoted us pretty accurately. But when they asked you how to you feel, I really wanted to scream at them and ask them if they are some kind of idiots. How do you think we feel? Please be Safe NOTHING AND I MEAN NOTHING IS WORTH YOUR LIFE. KEEP YOUR HEADS UP. IF YOU HAVE A BAD FEELING, GET OUT! Stay safe. I pray for all of you daily. Kat Thanks, Kat, for writing in and for your prayers. Our condolences to you and your family for your great loss then and now. I wish you could know how many of us continue to grieve for those guys and gals we lost on Storm King Mountain. Ab.
06/23	I'll agree with all that now is not the time to point fingers after the tragedy with the Greyback crew. It's barely summer and we've already lost 7 firefighters. I've also heard something about an engine crew being lost in South Dakota a bit ago? But... since we're on the topic... I think that in CA, if you're driving a van/bus whatever with more than 10? passengers for pay; you need a commercial license with a passenger endorsement. Would it have helped here? Probably not. Except that someone with a commercial license _may_ have more experience behind the wheel. Maybe not. I seem to recall that CDF used to bring in relief drivers just for the crew buggies. Haven't seen that lately, and I'm not sure why. I know I've had to stop on the way to and from fires to wake up a little. JF
06/23	It was not my intent, and I apologize profusely if my inquiry was taken as such, to lay blame on the driver(s) of the vehicle. My question was simply is this SOP by FF agencies to have staff drive such a distance vs flying them in. My heartfelt condolence to all the families and again, my apology if my inquiry offended anyone. PB
06/23	I think there is one thing people should keep in mind about driving on America's highways: it's dangerous. Just because YOU haven't gotten in an accident lately or ever doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Consider that the percentage of firefighters involved in accidents in relation to the total number of firefighters traveling these highways is MUCH lower than the percentage of ordinary motorists involved in accidents compared to the total number of ordinary motorists on the road. And accidents happen. There were 11 crew members riding in the Grayback van, do you think the same person was driving all the way from Oregon? So let's cut out the blame sh*t and the what happened sh*t here and accept that statistically we are lucky that there aren't more accidents involving firefighters than there are. *Thinking of our lost brothers and sisters AND those who are injured but still with us who have to face what has happened to them, and who already have more than enough strangers speculating on what happened* TK P.S. to the Padre: With all due respect: on the fire line god ain't gonna save you, only your own brain will, so yes, there is at least one atheist on the fire line.
06/23	From Firescribe: azcentral.com fire slideshow lagrandeobserver.com rollover report azcentral.com on shots sfgate.com on life in firecamp
06/23	This rarticle by JOHN N. MACLEAN is running in the NYTimes on 06/23. Tough Times for People Who Battle Wildland Blazes (a no cost registration is required)
06/23	This came to us from several sources who assure us that it is alright to post it and that it important to post it. We agree. It is important to remember that there are perspectives and personal truths to be heard. We leave it to readers to form their own opinions regarding the media reporting on this case. Ab. Subject: Thirtymile Administrative Investigation To: U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell; U.S Senator Patty Murray; Hon. Rep. "Doc" Hastings; Forest Chief Dale Bosworth; Regional Forester Harv Forsgren; Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal; Fire and Aviation Director Laurie Perrett; and Human Resources Director Roy Roosevelt Re: Recent disciplinary action taken regarding Thirtymile Incident Date: 6/12/02 Following is a letter written by Bill Kampen, Pete Kampen's father. Pete is one of the eleven who has proposed action being taken against him. This puts a face, name and circumstances to some of what the Forest Service is doing. Bill sent this to the chief, regional forester, senator cantwell, and doc hastings as well as a number of other people. He and Pete both want to share this and it is OK to pass it on to whoever you see fit....d<name snipped> <Ab note: If any of you would like to respond privately to Mr. Kampen, we will pass your comments along. We have removed his e-mail address and phone number from this document.> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Message from "William Kampen" on Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:52:04 -0700 ----- Subject: Thirtymile Administrative Investigation To: U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell; U.S Senator Patty Murray; Hon. Rep. "Doc" Hastings; Forest Chief Dale Bosworth; Regional Forester Harv Forsgren; Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal; Fire and Aviation Director Laurie Perrett; and Human Resources Director Roy Roosevelt Re: Recent disciplinary action taken regarding Thirtymile Incident Date: 6/12/02 After studying the USFS Thirtymile Fire Investigative Report, reading and cataloging the Yakima Herald's articles, and studying the heart-wrenching testimony of survivors, I have tried to make some sense out of the "Administrative Investigation" which is going on now. The observations below are based on factual information, logic, and common sense. Before I take additional action, I would appreciate your comments. Thank you for taking time to read this, and I will look forward to hearing from you. A. Thirtymile Claims 11 More Victims; Herald Celebrates Four very fine young people died in a tragic fire at Thirtymile last July 10. Nothing can erase the anguish that this has caused their families. My wife and I have great empathy for them, especially when we think how close we came to losing our son in this fire, too. We hope that they can soon find a path that leads to healing. In late March, an article appeared in the Wenatchee World which seemed to blame our son, and him alone, for the tragedy at Thirtymile. We thought this must be some kind of mistake, since Pete was a trainee on the initial attack phase of the fire only, during which time there were no injuries. I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the story, Michelle Partridge, and in her reply she informed me that Pete was one of the "key people" being "targeted" by "critics and relatives" as well as "congressional leaders." Further inquiry led me to the Yakima Herald website, where I was able to review all articles written about Thirtymile over the previous 7 months. I was appalled by what I found. We immediately wrote to Senator Cantwell expressing our concerns, but she declined to reply. The Herald invariably directed its invectives at the "commanders," an ambiguous term that could mean anything from "all fire management" to "incident commanders." It was readily apparent from certain allegations made by the Herald that Pete was included in this group, and was definitely among those being so viciously and publicly attacked. Senator Cantwell, according to a Jan.10 article in the Herald, was distressed "that the Forest Ser-vice hasn't disciplined or fired employees responsible for safety violations at Thirtymile." B. Rush to Judgment: The Helicopter On September 2, over three weeks before the official USFS Fire Investigation Report was released, The Herald published four articles about Thirtymile, among them "Requests for Helicopters Came Late" and "Commanders Didn't Follow Safety Guidelines," both written by Tom Roeder. Both contained factual errors which reflected negatively on fire leaders, including Pete, which I assumed at the time were inadvertent. Now I am not so sure. Let's take the helicopter allegation first, although Mr. Roeder's version of the story was put to rest long ago. The facts are that the crew leaders were initially told that the helicopter would be available for bucket use from 10:00 a.m. on, and they requested it shortly thereafter. When it didn't appear, they kept calling dispatch to ask when it would arrive, because without aerial water support their crew had little chance of controlling the fire. After some bureaucratic rules were sorted out, the helicopter was finally allowed to take off at 2:38 p.m., too late to make a difference. As the USFS Investigative Report subsequently confirmed, this delay was due to factors completely outside the IC's control. For over four hours, NWR Crew #6, many of them young and inexperienced, fought to contain this fire until water support could arrive. When they finally abandoned their effort in mid-afternoon, all were exhausted, but safe. C. Rush to Judgment: The Commanders were Responsible! ....... To read the rest of this very important perspective, click HERE. You can then scroll up or down for the full critique. This document is a "must read" and will be included under Documents Worth Reading on the Archives page and on the Site Map page with the links to the other 30mi documents. Ab.
06/23	Greetings from Italy! A friend of mine - a firefigther - is preparing his thesis (School of Medicine) on the consequences of smoke inhaled by firefigthers during wildland fires. There is not much documentation available over here in Italy, so I started to search the Net and found your website. Is there any way that you can help me? Any article that has been published? Or any link I may refer to? Your assistance would be very much appreciated! Thanks in advance. Patrizia Palla
06/23	I have been a "lurker" for a long time, and I just have say something. DVE & PB: What happened to the Grayback crew is awful thing. Now is NOT the time to decide the who, where, when, what why and how's. We should be remembering and mourning. The authorities will figure out what happened, and appropriate action will be taken. Think about the other 7 vans, the probably had to watch what happened to their fellow crew, then had the rest of the drive to think about what happened. For just a minute, imagine what they are going through. Everyone seems so quick to judge, these people are part of our "family." We should give them the respect they deserve for giving their all. My suggestion is to put all the negativity in the can and pray...this is going to be a very long fire season. CS
06/23	To those who want to jump on the band wagon and run off about who caused this and that, stop and think of yourself and your actions. Not one of us that has been called to a burn job has not stepped it up a notch to get there. Some facts to bring you up to date on driving regs. For a van one only needs a valid drivers license. If you are driving a rig with air brakes and also one that exceeds certain weight requirements then you need a CDL which does have limitations on driving time, ie..ten hours driving time and then a eight hour break. I am sure that the folks in the accident had been trading off driving duties. Lets not point fingers and blame when we don't know all the facts. One thing we all need to remember, they are our brothers and sisters, lets take the time to pray and grieve, support the families and survivors instead of playing the devil's advocate. God bless those that we lost this year and their families. BE SAFE OUT THERE FOLKS, ITS ONLY TREES. YOUR LIFE IS TOO PRECIOUS TO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILIES AND THE REST OF US. SEE YOU ON THE LINE, LETS BE SAFE OUT THERE! Mike Don't mean to sound off but some folks need to engage their brains before there mouths.
06/23	Ab and everyone, back home from Colorado for 2 days then back on the road monday to ??. Sitting here in La Grande wondering why this little town is getting more than it's share of grief this week. First the T-130 goes down and kills all aboard and now more of our brothers and sisters are killed in a vehicle rollover. It isn't even July yet and engine crews are getting burned over in Southern California. I don't want to sound like a cliche but everyone watch your and your buddies' backs, fronts and sides real close. Don't be afraid to stop for an extra hour for a long lunch break while driving long distances. And treat your crews like they deserve to be treated. Get a motel and some good rest if you can when on the road. What is a couple of bucks for firefighters rooms out of the millions we spend on trying to slay these dragons. Don't let the desire for a couple extra hours of OT allow you to try to push on another 100 miles when you know you need a break for the drivers or yourself. Most of all enjoy the people you work with and your families while you can 'cause we don't get any guarantee on our length of service here on this ball of dirt. God Bless all you who read this and especially the families of those who have bumped ahead of us on that long fireline to heaven. Praying For Rain.
06/23	Dear Ab., Do you or anyone have a current needs list for the position of dozer boss, falling bass, strike team leaders, or task force leaders? R3Firetaz We've been talking about doing one. There is the Fire Job Connection on the Classifieds page. Ab.
06/23	As a former fire-rescue medic turned priest, just wanted to let you know we're praying for the safety of all of you out there on the lines. Watch yourselves and take care. (Someone once said there's no atheists in foxholes - I haven't found any on the firelines yet either! ) Take care and God be with you! Padre
06/23	DVE, Contractors aren't the only ones that drive long and hard to get to incidents they are dispatched to. When I was "farmed out" by my state we drove our convoys strait throughout to the fire and were often sent directly to the fireline without rest. Sometimes that meant we were without rest for over 48 hrs. Now that ICs' may be held liable for doing so (if fatalities result) firefighters may be somewhat assured of getting rest prior to being sent to the line. I am not sure about who would be held accountable for allowing or encouraging "their firefighters" to drive long hours cross country to a fire they have been dispatched to. I don't think there are laws prohibiting it but the probability of civil suit for willful negligence might well be applied to any employer who does so. Of course private contractors are more vulnerable to civil suit than govt. entities. I wonder if most have a policy on this? Grayback has a good reputation as an employer and I don't think they would encourage firefighters working for them to exceed reasonable hours of driving when in "travel status". Of course most of us don't need encouragement to do so. When we are dispatched most of us are very eager to "get to the fire". I agree with Olddog about the authorities being able to determine who was "at fault". Personally though I won't even care for a while. Now is the time for mourning. I am sick at heart for my fallen comrades and my thoughts and prayers center on their families, the survivors and their recovery. It is still early in the season and we have lost so many. Too many. As the sun rises each morning I pray that we all will slow down, think safety first, and watch out for each other. Fireronin
06/23	For God's sake, DVE, let the wheels stop turning before you start to question everything that happened in the accident. WES
06/23	Condolences to the family and friends of the Grayback crew who lost their lives or were injured in that tragic accide