"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
June, 2002
| DATE |
|
| 06/30 |
It is interesting to me to note in both this forum and the
national/local press how much outrage is being vented against "the
environmentalists" for their presumed fight against "forest
thinning", VMP programs, etc., and their supposed culpability in the
current siege of fire. First, most "environmentalists",
including me, see exactly ONE major cause of environmental degradation,
and that is !!!!!<<OVERPOPULATION>>!!!!.
Second, I suspect only a very few have ever fought against forest/fuel
thinning. Local Air Pollution Control Districts have often been a problem,
but that is a problem with bureaucrats attempting to fulfill their
obligations, not environmentalists.
Third, and let me preface this by saying my 32 years of wildland fire
experience have been solely in California, so I may be missing some of the
nuances of the fire problem elsewhere, "REDUCING THE FUEL LOAD IN
WILDLAND AREAS EITHER BY MECHANICAL OR COMBUSTION METHODS WILL NOT
WORK". I am reminded of the time I was on-duty one evening at a CDF
station in Riverside County, CA. Network TV had just shown a 2-hour movie
(B-grade) revolving around a large forest fire. Shortly after it ended the
station phone rang. The party at the other end wished to impart to me, as
an agent of the state responsible for wildland fire protection, his
insight into how to solve the problem. It seems that we have overlooked
the obvious option of laying irrigation pipe over all of the wildland, and
installing thereon numerous sprinkler heads equipped with fusible links.
It is clear, now, that this would pretty much eliminate our wildland fire
problem............
But this neophyte with the big brain is no worse than the thousands of
people who should know better, including Mr. Pyne (loved his books, and I
can only assume that his ivory-tower intellectualism has led him off the
path of wisdom), and many professional wildland firefighters. Here is the
problem: Take California. It has 100 million acres of wildland. Our Ranger
Unit conducts several controlled-(VMP) burns per year. Their average size
is about 1000 acres. Each of these VMP burns requires a great deal of our
local resources to conduct. Helicopters, engines, Fire Crews, bulldozers,
overhead and etc. IF the burn is 100% successful (??) we will have
eliminated with each burn an average of one one-hundred-thousandth of
California's fuel load. And let's hope those resources weren't needed
elsewhere.
But waitaminute. From personal experience, I expect at least one out of
ten of these to significantly escape control lines. This can often, with
much effort and only minor augmentation of forces already there, and the
exhaustion of us poor Fire Crew members, be controlled without anyone
elsewhere being the wiser. But a smaller, but still very significant,
percentage will escape and run wild, threatening life, property and
governmental budgets. All this to eliminate a tiny fraction of the
wildland fuel available. I understand that the locations of these control
burns can be selected for the greatest possible strategic value, but I
maintain that in order to make any significant reduction in California's
wildland fire problem via controlled burning involves far greater cost and
risk than the public will accept.
And don't even get me started on mechanical means. My very vigorous Crew
and I spent an entire summer cutting, stacking and burning five acres of
brush. It took four days to burn the piles, and the local Fire Dept.
responded twice to situations while I was there that were looking dicey,
and then, with another Captain in attendance, a major escape required a
full CDF and local Fire response and scared the hell out of the local
homeowners.........
Solution? Continue as we are doing, extinguishing to the best of our
abilities all wildland fires which will conceivably present a threat to
improvements and/or life. Let the timber companies fund fire suppression
which threatens their timber. Or (and I support this final option, which
has no chance in hell of coming to pass), phase out ALL wildland fire
suppression over a period of about ten years, with the exception of
commercial timber fires, the suppression of which will be paid for by
private timber companies. The public will be warned that they need to
provide for their own protection via not building in locations where fire
will burn down their home, or to at least reduce the fuel load threatening
their homes at their own expense. Meanwhile, existing forces will
gradually be shifted entirely to structure protection. At the end of 10 to
15 years, only a minor skeleton crew of fire suppression forces will
remain to assist in extraordinary situations.
How'm I doing?
CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande
Mike, Here’s a couple of comments from my perspective.
I think I understand how you have determined that overpopulation is the
main factor in your arena. As I see it, CDF typically is stationed and has
direct protection authority for a majority of the wildland/urban interface
as it constantly expands from the urban areas.
Counties failing to consider the impact of the relentless population
expansion are those first in line to request the governor to declare a
state of emergency so their residents can be eligible for assistance to
rebuild in the same fire prone areas at a lower cost to themselves. I’ve
seen it a hundred times: when a homeowner whose home has burned to the
ground is asked if they will stay and rebuild, they respond that they
will.
On your statement regarding you and your crew's seemingly insignificant
contributions towards reducing existing fuel loading, I can only say that
I would multiply your crew's efforts by the number of others attempting
the same and multiply that by 15 years (your arbitrary time frame) of
strategic fuel reduction and let's see the results. I am willing to bet
they would be much better than you seem to think they would be.
Contrary to your opinion, I have personally witnessed large crowning
timber fires stopped and held at areas that had been pre-treated. The most
recent was last year. The Battalion Officer in charge of the fire had
spent over five years as an engine Captain working on the fuel break. It
was quite pleasurable to him to recognize that his five years of
apparently mindless, repetitious, seemingly unrewarding work had paid off.
As a member of a California Type 1 Team, I have have seen other examples
where, not only did the fire die down when it hit a pretreated area, it
was predictable that it would do so.
The reduction in existing fuel loads and the effort to modify the
vegetation cannot be accomplished, or judged in short term, narrow
perspectives. The reality of how long it took to change and produce our
existing vegetation versus the reality of how long it may take to revert
to a thinner status is unknown. Most likely won’t happen in my lifetime.
Your thoughts of ignoring history, fundamental biology and projecting
only timber producers become responsible for fires fails to demonstrate a
deeper understanding of forested areas. They provide not only lumber, but
contain cities and towns that are and have been places of residence for
several hundred years, they contain parks and wildernesses, they offer
vacation areas for skiing, fishing, camping, reflecting and boating.
There are no structures in many of the above areas, but most exhibit
symptoms of poor land management in the past. Let’s lengthen the time
line of your ideals and concepts to a hundred years or more before we
abandon our immediate needs for the health of forests and parks that we
have fought so long and hard to obtain.
Original Ab. |
| 06/30 |
Why are we bringing personnel from Australia & New Zealand? Canada
does not count because they are our neighbors!!! We help them all the time
and they help us all the time, to assist with the fire issues.
There have to be hundreds of fire personnel that have the knowledge,
skills, and abilities to do the work necessary within the USA. Many of the
western departments have personnel that have the wildfire all the time.
I just retired from a wonderful volunteer fire district in Washington
that has promoted and facilitate the training and learning to do many of
these jobs, yet only a few of them have been "ordered as
resources". Is not there a national training tracking system to know
is out there to pull into the incident? Why not have Congress or the
President allow these personnel go to the fires with the blessing of their
bosses and companies to get the fire out? Two years ago, it was allowed to
let the college students show up late because of the late run of fires
without penalty, maybe it is time to do this sort of thing again.
Zimm |
| 06/30 |
Mudd Droppers: Air Tankers..
Bees: type four helicopters..
I think of more as I read some from others..
Rotor Heads: Helitack
Helislack: Helitack
Thanks Fightfire75 |
| 06/30 |
Wildland Fire Terms:
Driving for Dollars - The act if driving to or from a fire, when said
driving occurs exclusively or mostly on overtime.
Head Shed - Ones supervisory office. "I need to go have a meeting
with the
boss at the 'Head Shed'."
I forgot two of my fav. fire names... In a fire season not so long ago, we
called the first fire of the season the "Ready, Aim Fire", and
the last of
that year was the "Cease Fire".
We don't bend them, we don't break them,
FireBill |
| 06/30 |
Not Again...
AZ Republic scoop: BIA firefighter admits setting 'Rodeo' fire
www.azrepublic.com/news/articles/0630fire-suspect-ON.html
Fireball XL5 |
| 06/30 |
The fire folks from Australia, New Zealand and Canada who came to help
out in 2000 weren't your regular Pulaski-motor type firefighters: they
were all top overhead, and their quals were rigorously compared to 310-1
before they were carded to fill jobs on our IMT's.
I suspect that these are the same types of folks being considered for
2002. Their own complaint: no cold beers in camp at the end of a long
shift!
Mollysboy |
| 06/30 |
Re why we have not thinned the forests:
Back from CO for a few days and then off to who knows where... Interesting
to hear about fire on the broadcast news, but some things are
disappointing - and hard to believe - and make me angry!
Heard (on Fox?) Jay Inslee, congressman from WA (on the Forests and
Forest Health Committee) say the environmentalists are not the problem -
they have not stopped the Forest Service from using the money appropriated
by Congress for the National Fire Plan.
Well, in one sense, maybe he's right - those who are bringing suit and
making appeals to block hazard tree removal, etc. are not
environmentalists in my mind, they are zealots so in love with their own
power and/or so afraid of the government that they are incapable of
reason.
"Let it burn." They want no mitigation of thick fuels, no
interference of any kind. They, who were yesterday for the spotted owl and
snail, don't care that catastrophic fire destroys the soil, leaves no
habitat for spotted owl and snails and burns up more timber than can be
imagined. Or that catastrophic fire destroys human's interface communities
needlessly and can kill people from time to time. Will we be able to lay
at their doorsteps the next deaths of the Public or of firefighters, say
from an interface fire whose spread could have been prevented with shaded
fuel breaks?
Inslee says that the Forest Service is using every penny allocated by
Congress. He thinks that more money should be appropriated. Well, we could
use more money to get the job done, but...
the unreasonable demands and legal blocks these extreme individuals are
getting away with cost TIME, paperwork and taxpayer money in a HUGE way.
Many of those "pennies" being used up from our budget for fire
are "spent" when fed firefighters who could be doing more
thinning or burning or research are instead tied up in researching
rebuttals and providing frivolous FOIAs (Freedom of Information Act
documents) that these extremist groups have submitted with the express
purpose of "tying up" the system. They even have manuals on
"How to Get Your Forest Service with a FOIA", for gosh sakes.
It's a manipulation of the system, pure and simple. (Da*m, a FOIA is
supposed to be a good thing, not a manipulation.)
Abs, I know you don't want to turn this site into a political forum. I
don't either - but as many of us, I have seen the destruction from fire
and I know how thick our forests are and how a little work, strategically
done, could really help. The process of fuel reduction of the National
Fire Plan needs to be streamlined. Development of that plan has taken the
good scientific work of many intelligent public servants with a lot of
Public input and we need to get on with implementing it. Guess I'm pissed
at how easily a few radicals and a judge can bring things to a grinding
halt... and how readily our congressional representatives say it's not the
problem... Guess I'm just needing to vent a little.
Mellie, everyone I know who works in fire - we all consider ourselves
environmentalists - bar none. I also have tended to vote Democrat thru the
years. Maybe that's why I am seriously disappointed in Inslee's attitude
that those who bring suit are not the problem. Sheesh! They are part of
the problem and so is the judge!!! Everyone who is not part of the
solution is part of the problem. (And IR-1, maybe I have just a touch
of smoke inhalation syndrome - symptoms of frustration and anger occurring
upon return from the fireline. Good post, that.)
ABs, thanks for all you do including this forum.
Be SAFE,
Tahoe Terrie |
| 06/30 |
My guess is that foreign firefighters are being invited for several
reasons.
First: We can use their help. This is still the beginning of what
promises to continue to be a very long and active fire season. Resources
will be low and in some areas already are. Those who are still at home (or
find ourselves at home after being out and having a few weeks taste of the
good life) probably are "stuck at home" because of local
drawdown. At least that's my situation. Some of us need to stand at the
ready for any developing local need. In current dry conditions across the
West, any fire escaping IA has the potential to become a large fire.
Hopefully over the course of the season different crews will share the
"home duty".
Second: Having foreign firefighters visit and participate is the best
way to educate them to our system of fighting fire (and to learn about how
ours differs from theirs). Everyone knows that the PTB/OJT portion of our
training is at least as important and perhaps more important than the
classroom work. We live in a world on fire. We need to mentor others along
and also hear their stories/methods.
NorCal Tom, rarin' to get back to the fireline |
| 06/30 |
To Hon. Mouse,
Hey there.. I am just curious as why the R6 contracts or not out yet and
why
bring ppl from overseas here to fight when we have 200 engines in the
Pacific northwent ready to go.. Lets keep US dollars in the US. I mean
yeah
its nice to have support from other countries BUT I must say that we as
contractors are hungry to make money. Yes we have mouths to feed just like
anyone else does. But we are fire fighters too.. SO why not they send us..
If anyone has a idea to share email me at fightfire75@hotmail.com.. I
guess
the next step to to email the USDA rep in Wa DC..
Fightfire75
PS for everyone who is on a fire, BE Safe I can honestly say shelters
saved
my life. August 13th, 2001 I deployed and made it. |
| 06/30 |
John,
Let us not forget:
"Lawn Darts" = Smoke Jumpers
"Rotor Toads" = Helitack
In regards to classic fire names who can forget the Bald Peter Fire on the
Warm Springs Res in '01!?
NV 'yote
Good job on a personalized moniker, you former "Coyote"you.
Ab. |
| 06/30 |
To Fightfire 75 and Aussies Coming:
I also am wondering about importing foreigners when we have people here
in the states that are not only ready and willing to go, but also have
sizable investments in time, training and money for the occasion.
A few years back AD Fallers in Central CA were hit with having to take
the pack test in Aug. during our peak fire season. They even stopped a
fellow faller enr. to Wyoming and sent him back until he’d taken the
pack test. (Note there was no mention of the pack test in our contracts
and the subject had never come up until it "instantly" appeared
that year.) With USFS personnel so busy on fires few of us got the
opportunity to take the test until after fire season was over so we were
"out of business" in two of our peak fire months. -----
Firefighters from Australia and Canada were imported during our
"waiting-to-take-the-test" time as well as military personnel.
Although I didn’t like it, I assumed this was political payback on a
national scale as both Australia and Canada were pushing for more extreme
gun control as was the US Administration at that time. I could see it as a
political "you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours"
situation.
I can’t even start to guess the what and why of what’s going on
here. Puts an unknown meaning to the closing line of EERA contracts that
say "Your continued support is greatly appreciated".
The Honorable Mouse. |
| 06/30 |
Re Gov Davis and CDF:
The question as to whether the augmentation is due to the fire severity or
politics, my belief is it is a little of both.
If the Gov were serious about California's Fire Department, He would
restore the cuts of the last 25 years to the CDF initial attack system.
And people never thought airliners could be crashed into buildings.....
~.~.~.~.
On a lighter note - John Macleans' request for fire terms:
"The Fellas" or "The Men"...Terms used to describe the
CDF inmate firefighters (Orange Herd).
"Hunker" ...Lay down and take it easy on the line (out of sight
of course). Two clicks on the HT when the DIVS walks by the point man!
"Red Army" = CDF
"Juice Suckers" ...Base/Camp slugs
"Engine Slugs"...Interchangeable term referencing CDF and/or
USFS engine crews. Used of course exclusively by Hotshots and CDF FC'B's
of the Orange Herd!
"The Parent Company"...A vintage term used by old CDFer's to
describe the USFS.
"Another CDF BC" |
| 06/29 |
Aussies Coming
I have no hard feeling about them coming over. I am a private
contractor
worker and wonder why us ppl up here in Oregon and Washington are not
goin..
I don't think it fair for goin out of country. Hey we are fire fighters
here
too... I am more than willing to go down and make a few dollars, stay in
the
USA. Ab can you find numbers for me to call? And as for S-290 I know you
can
get it on the disc. and take it.
Fightfire75
We did find an S-290 ppt. As far as numbers to call, needs to be your
dispatching unit. Ab. |
| 06/29 |
I'd like to look at the results of the testing and the comparisons of
all of
the fire shelters that were presented to the Federal Fire and Aviation
Leadership Council (FFALC). Can anyone tell me where I can find it?
Thanks, Firefighter Jane
Call any one of the contact people listed at the top of the NIFC News
release. You can probably get the info from them. Ab. |
| 06/29 |
Caught a quick look at a headline this morning. Said Aussies sending
fire crews to Arizona to help with wildfires but first wanted assurances
against any law suits being brought against them, any truth to this?
Sounds like a ripple effect from the Thirty Mile Fire.
Mike |
| 06/29 |
An Aussie torch's day in court:
It's useful to remind ourselves that there are those in our firefighting
community who may be a few bricks short of a load.
Here's an example of Australian justice at work on a despicable series
of arson crimes over the last Christmas and New Year's period:
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=302230
- JohnA |
| 06/29 |
Hey Mike, who sent in the question about S-290.
Please contact me. I no longer have your e-mail and someone has written in
with info for you.
Ab. |
| 06/29 |
Abercrombie
Having had so much fun discussing favorite fire names, how about fire
terms? There are lots of fire glossaries on the Internet. But they are
short on some of the more descriptive terms: fire virgin, fire weenie,
dopes on ropes, and so on (including the memorable acronym for deputy
incident commander).
(In the interests of full disclosure, I am trying to put together a
glossary of fire terms for a new book, this one of fire stories around the
theme of the history of wildland fire.)
Anybody have any favorite terms to share?
Sincerely,
John N. Maclean |
| 06/29 |
Hay Stack Fires:
Having gone to many of these calls in the past 20 years, I have found
several truths regarding what to do with them.
1. If the stack is on fire and the wind has blown any smoke into the
remaining stack the whole stack is gone as far as use for livestock. they
will not eat it at all. (right from the ranchers/farmers mouth)
2. Should you be lucky and have the fire at one end of stack, order the
front loader (with cage) or bulldozer (with cage) and go to the middle of
stack and have the exposure cut in half.
3. Order twice to three times the amount of personnel you have on scene.
(you do not need them now but you will)
4. If, after the dozer has solved the exposure problem and the stack is
Not 1/2 or one ton bales, your crews you ordered can now go tear the stack
apart down to its basic components. (cut the strings, hand tools to make
the whole thing about 6 inches high). Have lots of room for this so you do
not put any of the good stack in connection with the bad stuff, ruins the
stack again.
5. Be prepared to use lots of water, save the foam, waste of money. You
will need a nozzle that can fog and have penetration when needed.
6. In my adventures with these they always seemed to happen at night and I
almost always got home at dawn. (Hated them with a passion).
7. Be safe around the dozer, it was usually the farmer's and they are not
use to working around large groups of people.
BC Don Zimmerman (ZIMM) |
| 06/28 |
The Jobs Page,
Job Series 0462 and
Series 0455 Pages
are updated. Ab. |
| 06/28 |
Now here are a couple of fire
dogs: Tim from the Marin Co FD and Glen from the Kern Co FD are FBAN
and SITL respectively. As part of CIIMT 3, Joe Wood's team, they're
scouting the Hensel Fire in Wyoming.
Some nice photos at this fire site. http://wildfires.nwcg.gov/wyoming/hensel/index.shtml
after 06/22.
LAC
Thanks LAC. You can also get there from the Fire
Links, 2002. Ab. |
| 06/28 |
They Said Folks.
Many thanks the helpful replies re: hay bale - hay stack fires. I can
tell I touched a nerve. Glad I’m not the only one that dreads the darn
things. --- Hay Bale Fire King and respondent avoidance. I’m practicing
my agony snivel and death twitch as I type.( I’m an AD so it’s easier
to just "not be available", ...... but why take chances?) ---
And Capt. Emmitt as Hay Bale Prince (where can I get more info on the
"Magic Water" you spoke of?). ---- Mellie making air drops on
"a" hay bale must make her Hay Bale Queen. Mellie, I’ve seen a
semi truck load of hay going down the road with a top bale smoking like
crazy and about to ignite. Are the flyboys and girls any good at moving
targets? -----
Ab, you got a wealth of info on this site. All kidding aside, I for one
appreciate the heck out of a source to "talk shop" with people
that have probably forgotten more about fire fighting than I’ll ever
know. - Hope I can return the favor somewhere down the line. ------- And
to Mr/Ms Reason: I’m not real sorry you can’t "get into" the
low-technical trivia of hay bale fire info on this fire fighting related
site. I do like your idea of Hot Shots with pitch forks though. Are there
OSHA approved pitch forks out there?
Thanks again and BE SAFE all, it’s going to be an interesting year.
Honorable Mouse |
| 06/28 |
Good Morning All - A little opinion piece...
Caught CNN on the western fires this morning before starting my day and
was pleasantly surprised by their report. It focused on what thinning and
burning do to protect against hot burns and why the Forest Service has not
been able to do that due to analysis paralysis, and gridlock court appeals
by groups who oppose a particular action or any action. I hope that many
Americans are watching. These issues need to be more widely revealed. Too
bad it takes environmental catastrophe to get the word out. Colorado and
Arizona legislators and governors are asking questions and speaking
loudly... GOOD FOR THEM!
One statistic I didn't know but might have guessed is that 40% of the
work of FS prior to fire is paperwork. Makes sense, given all the survey
and manage and sierra framework, etc etc that CA has to go through simply
for brush disposal and Rx burning...
And then there's the constant appeals and court litigation that mean
even hazard trees are likely to rot before they can be removed. I'm just
waiting for our local Humboldt County environmental group to bring a
lawsuit to further slow the work that needs to be done on our northern CA
forests. Don't they get it that doing nothing allows us to have the really
hot burns that bakes soil and renders wildlands sterile for many years? No
habitat for the spotted owl in that ashtray. We need some new Ninth
District northern California judges who are willing to educate themselves
enough on the fire ecology and fire practices/science to know when and how
they are being used by extremists to block worthy action. The shaded fuel
break up near Grizzly Camp (Six Rivers NF) knocked the Megram Fire right
down. Immediately adjacent to that, however, the forest (formerly 10'
diameter fir - LSR) was nuked. Our extremists think that's just fine. No
management is good management. Go figure.
I honor our democracy (and still consider myself a liberal, a democrat,
and an environmentalist), but sometimes lately I feel we all pay the
financial and other costs of the extreme minority who have an ax to grind
and know how to use the judges and court system to grind it. What a waste
of money, time, and resources!
Mellie |
| 06/28 |
Some info on investigations into the Cannon Fire start and the AT crash
near Walker:
www.rgj.com
Firescribe
Links to many more articles on the FireNews
page. Give it 20 sec to load the most current search. Ab. |
| 06/28 |
RE: Fireball XL5 on 06/22: While I agree with the general content of
your warning message, you also said, “Sometimes it's better to do
nothing”. I strongly disagree. Doing “nothing” demonstrates
inexperience, lack of information, preparedness, and leadership.
During an initial attack yesterday, I heard on the radio from the first
engine on scene that they were getting spots behind them and that they
had to pull back until additional units arrived on scene to help protect
them. Pull back is good. Doing nothing is bad.
There is ALWAYS something to do. Find a new anchor, establish a
lookout, preplan communications, secure the ignition point, take weather
readings.
Perhaps a poor choice of words on your part.
Always Busy! |
| 06/28 |
Mike I did a search for S-290 a few months ago with no success.
FG |
| 06/28 |
Re: Anything to do with hay bales!
Whoaaa there bubba! Good grief, just found myself looking for the radio
dial at 0500 in the am to find out what the price of pork bellies are.
Eeeeesh, slow down with this stuff.
Dig a big hole in the ground, fill it full of water with all those water
carrying resources yer a’hoggin, and use the dozers to push the stacks
in. Cover it up with dirt when yer done and go do a Google search for
the hee haw web site.
What’s next? We gonn’a discuss the flame intensity of dem cornstocks
or
da ERCs o’ alfalfa? When’s the last time we put jumpers on them hay
fields? Air tankers? Air attack on a hay bale? Need some Type 1
Crews? Haw, haw, Hotshots with pitchforks!
Ok, I’m done. I’m sure it’s a serious problem in some parts, just
not
sure I can get into it on this site.
Hee, hee, let’s call a Type 2 team in.
Reason |
| 06/28 |
Dear Ab, IR-1 and Mellie,
You may have thought "how rude!" You replied promptly to my
inquiry and
I didn't even take the time to say thank you. Well, I didn't know you
had responded until a few minutes ago. I had no idea where to look for
the answer! I started playing around with wildlandfire.com again today and
then .. there it was!! THANK YOU!!!!! I think I know my way around now
and will visit you often.
Thanks again.
Patrizia |
| 06/28 |
Hickman,
Saw that you were at Coal Seam, sorry to have missed you. I was in camp
Sit Unit, you were at
the helibase. I think I will end up back in that area soon. IMTs are
starting to rotate again.
Battalion Chief Don Zimmerman (ZIMM) |
| 06/27 |
Ab,
By now most of you know the Cajon Pass (Interstate 15, north of San
Bernardino) area is burning again. Fire started yesterday and is now over
6000 acres with no containment, three structures lost, per LA news.
Haystack fires are a pain. Smoke renders the adjacent stack unpalatable
for cattle. All the suppression agents I have found, beyond water, will
not guarantee the stuff will be safe to feed to anything. The one ton
bales seem more prone to spontaneous combustion.
For those interested in what is going on with California's budget, the
Governor is reinstating 20 million he had cut from CDF for this year. But
the legislature must approve the new budget. The threats of IOU's is back
after the state got a court ruling saying that government employees should
understand that if no budget is passed, there is no money to pay you. The
employee association is trying to get the legislature to pass emergency
funding so people can keep food on their tables and roofs over their
heads.
Be safe, summer has a long way to go and the live fuel moistures in a
big chunk of the west, are record breaking low (Home Depots lumber is
wetter than most live (?) trees. Safety is going to big our biggest job
this year. LCES, 10's, 18's, and tailgate briefing need to be priorities.
FyrEtr |
| 06/27 |
Hay that's been doused with fire retardant of any kind is useless for
dairy or cattle herds. Bust the bales, spread them and water them down.
Make sure the dairyman/rancher knows that there may be some
contamination to the wetted hay from past use of the equipment.
SITL |
| 06/27 |
I always call in the air tankers for a hay bale fire, or my Norwegian
cousins. <smerk>
Mellie
I won't tell you what they called me! |
| 06/27 |
Mouse,
Class A foam set at about 1% will do the trick. Also see if the
farmer/rancher/dairyman has a hay-squeeze available to him. If you have to
bust the stack, I suggest ordering a 2nd alarm for staffing to get the job
done ( many hands make light work) Also, the product "Magic
Water" works
just dandy for these type fires. I'm not sure I would let a stack burn, it
is a very valuable commodity to that farmer/rancher/dairyman. You also
should plan on an extended commitment, depending on the length and height
of
the stack, in some of our station's first in areas, they have dairy farms
with huge stacks, some 50 to 100' long and 15 or 20' high or more. All of
our engines and water tenders carry hay hooks because of the ag nature of
the county, one station this year has had 6 hay stack fires!!
Hope this helps,
Captain Emmett |
| 06/27 |
To the Honorable Mouse,
I've got to agree with Pulaski and say that when called to a hay fire
if you can get out of it that would be the thing to do. I've had to fight
way more than I can count and the best thing is to cut out what can be
salvaged and stir what must be burnt. By far the wildest one that I've
been on was a lightning strike into a hay trap that conservatively
contained about 4,000 #1500 round bales we ended up sitting with it for 6
days with 5 plows, 4 VFD's with an estimated 14 tenders and brush trucks
and the rancher's 3 loaders that were utilized extensively. We had to
position a brush truck with every tractor and ensure that no brands
started the tractors on fire. Even with those precautions we had to put
out dozer fires 6 different times.
We had another that only contained about 20 bales and the owner didn't
want us to spend the time or materials to sit there and watch them all
night so I ended up taking a dozer and stirring them until they broke up
and then buried the ash.
Stay safe, Keith
Since Pulaski is the Hay Bale King then I must just be a lowly prince. |
| 06/27 |
anyone know where the s-290 course in online?
Mike |
| 06/27 |
Hey Abs and the gang,
Just got back from the Hayman fire as a FOBS, I am
excited to see that ABC News picked up on the 8000
acre RX burn that was done on the north east side of
the fire. It basically ran out of steam when it got to
the burn - Imagine that!
Also there was a lumber mill that had done
considerable thinning on the east flank and guess
where the fire laid down when it came ripping (and I
do mean ripping) over the ridge?.
Hopefully prescribed fire will be front page news (and
I don't mean like los Alamos) as this fire season
continues.
firepup21
center coordinator for the National Interagency
Prescribed Fire Training Center, Tallahassee FL
PS Check out our website for training opportunities
this winter. http://fire.r9.fws.gov/pftc
We have that one on the links
page under training if you do want to find it this winter. Ab. |
| 06/27 |
Mouse, Having unfortunate assignments to many hay bale fires here is my
# 1 ROT: -if you are aware that is it a hay bale fire before you leave the
station, do everything in you power to avoid having to respond...twist
your ankle on the way out the door, feign death, what ever it takes!!
OK, with that out of the way...and you are stuck going... here is my
tried and true methods of engagement (typically I am dealing with the
large round bales ~5ft dia and ~5ft long sitting in farm fields)
#1- Look the situation over before you do anything, if you come in
spraying water you may screw yourself in the long run and end up being
stuck there longer (obviously if its really cooking and next to a building
or something you have no choice).
#2- Separate any bales not on fire far away from the burning ones or
suspected burning ones (hopefully the land owner is on hand and has a
tractor set up to move bales, otherwise your are in deep doo doo from the
start if there is a pile of bales stacked together).
#3- If you can, separate the burning stuff/parts from the unburned. Give
yourself as much space a possible for the "hot" pile, You need
to be real careful as the smallest hot spot can go undetected and get into
your "cold" pile and ruin your day.
#4- Now, look at amount that is burning, if it is not much and you have
time on you hands, letting most of it burn out may be the quickest way to
deal with it. If you decide to let much of it burn out, you will need to
help it along by fluffing it up to let oxygen get to the inner parts of
the hot pile.
#5- If you have decided to put it out, now it the time to start applying
water/foam (any class A works). Spread the burning hay out as much as
possible, use mechanized equipment if needed and available. Otherwise,
Mclouds, pitchforks work great, Shovels and pulaskis suck. Keep in mind
fluff-spray-spread, fluff-spray-spread. When you think it is all out...do
it all over again.
The key is the decision to let it burn out or try to put it out right
away or let it burn up. I have found that unless it is a very small fire
in one bale, it is much quicker to let as much of it burn up (after you
have separated) as possible before putting a drop of water on it.
As for protecting them from spot fires, I have seen large hay bale
piles covered with plastic to help protect it from rain but depending on
the size of fire brands it probably isnt going to help much in preventing
ignitions.
ok, thats about it...for what I know.
You have my greatest sympathy
Signed,
Pulaski - the hay bale fire king |
| 06/27 |
thanks Islander,
exactly what i was looking for.
Stay Safe
MNFF |
| 06/27 |
MNFF,
The only thing I can add to Islander's list would be some Immodium AD. It
comes in real handy when the MRE's hit you!!
Onelick |
| 06/27 |
MNFF
Here is the list I give to my engine crews for 14 day assignments. This
assumes, though, that you get laundry service where you're going. If
you're flying in, you may not get to take as much, but don't short
yourself.
Islander
Islander's List for Mobilization |
| 06/27 |
Hi All
I’m wondering if there is a particular technique or retardants for
extinguishing fires in baled hay - or for that matter loose stacks. In
particular is there any preparations a stockman can make to protect
haybarns and haystacks from spot fires ? In experiments I’ve found
"wet water" was a help but you still needed to gouge out the
burning hay as it would often re-ignite given a little time.
Thanks,
The Honorable Mouse. |
| 06/27 |
FYI
Noon day report: San Bernardino Forest {BDF} has had 4 class D fires since
June 3rd in the Cajon Pass area of the Forest for a total of 18,000 acres.
This figure include the in-progress Incident named Louisiana burning on
both sides of the pass @ this time.
Danny |
| 06/27 |
From Firescribe: Could the nation finally be waking up to what it needed
to manage fire on the interface?
Little Fires to End Big Fires (opinion)
www.csmonitor.com
Fight Fire With Fire (opinion)
www.sacbee.com
Prescribed Burns Pay Off (good management as a result of the National Fire
Plan)
abcnews.go.com |
| 06/27 |
Hello Ab,
I was wondering to what degree you think Gov Davis' recent allocations
of $$ for firefighters is political vs just in response to the dangerous
fire
season. I thought I heard that there were supposed to be firefighters on
those engines earlier. Maybe I'm wrong on that. My brother is a
firefighter
but has recently gone to Colorado so I can't ask him.
Sam,
(Ab, Don't know if you will post this. I'm an interface homeowner and
I've done my best to make my home safe.)
Any CDF readers or others in the know? Ab. |
| 06/27 |
Hi all,
I am getting ready to go out west for my first "big" fire and I
am
wundering what I should take in my red bag. I saw the list for the line
pack but I was wundering how much and what you take in terms of clothes
personal items etc. that are not carried on the line. Thank you
stay safe,
MNFF
List for the line pack can be found under FAQs
(Frequently Asked Questions). Readers, anything to add to this? Ab. |
| 06/27 |
Bulldozers and the US Forest Service
By Sarah Foster © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
When the U.S. Forest Service asked Ron Largent, general manager of a
major gold-mining operation in Colorado, for the use of some extra-heavy
equipment to fight the Hayman fire, he was more than happy to help.
Cutting strings and red tape..............
www.worldnetdaily.com
John |
| 06/27 |
Hello from hazy southern Colorado. Finally got an IA dispatch today, who
cares if it was a false alarm! Got us out of our rut and onto the
pavement.
I was impressed with what they'll dispatch in the Extreme action class...
a couple of engines, Air Attack platform, bucket ship, and a jump plane,
though I don't know how many sticks of jumpers were on board.
Got to watch a spectacular thunderstorm develop here today, we'll go check
for holdover tomorrow. Another afternoon of hide and seek.
But back to the original intent of my post... 1/4 TURN! Being a DNR boy,
those fittings are near and dear to my heart... You can put 'em together
in
the dark, when they're dirty, it doesn't matter how you throw out the
hose,
field repair couplings are cheap and easy to come by, drag 'em around the
pavement/rocks/etc. and no threads will be damaged, no adapter needed to
hook up 1.5" to 1", need I go on?
I was going to say "tell them to quit their whining about the
cost", get
some adapters, and start replacing threaded with 1/4 turn, but on second
thought, you "threaded" folks keep buying that stuff. That way
when we want
to buy more 1/4 turn, it won't be back-ordered. *grin*
Speaking of hose, anyone have the chance to try the 1" toy hose? I
used a
demo piece last year. Doesn't snag, kink, or blow out as often as the old
stuff. My understanding is we'll be purchasing it instead of 5/8"
from now
on.
Anyway, sorry to ramble on so long. It's still hot, dry, and windy here in
CO, so don't be fooled into thinking you're not going to be invited to the
party, just because one large fire is getting taken care of. Things are
still hopping. REALLY hopping.
Look Up, Look Down, Look Around,
~FireBill |
| 06/27 |
Greetings:
For those that have loved ones on crews from the east, the EACC has the
IARR Crew Status Reports online now at http://www.fs.fed.us/eacc/iarr.rtf
Shep |
| 06/27 |
Ab-
I suspect that Region 5 Fire & Aviation did not know there was a
problem
with the web pages, as everything works fine if you are on a Forest
Service
machine. Hopefully the pages can get fixed as they have been visible on
the FS side with updated information all week.
-22 |
| 06/27 |
when i inquired if continuous hours of driving to a wildland fire is
restricted by the fire agencies, i was
accussed of being a member of a rival fire response company. actually, i
am a firefighter's wife and when
any fire related injury or death occurs, my first question is "can we
prevent this from happening
tomorrow by reviewing the safety factors today so other families won't
have to needlessly suffer? we
have received the fire calls at midnight when my husband is told to be
ready at 4 a.m. does he sleep
between midnight and 4? heck no, his mind is already at the fire, thinking
about what is ahead of him
and what his job (which he loves) will require him to do.
unlike a local fire company that responds to a fire in a shorter span of
time, wildland firefighters are
responding from miles and hours away. it was finally recognized in
emergency wards that patient care
was impaired when staff would work several continuous shifts. when
firefighters are responding from
miles and hours away, their safety is impaired on the already dangerous
highways if the crew has not had
sufficient rest time during their journey to the fire.
the van rollover was a tragic accident and as with any other injury/death
accidents, my condolences go to
the family, friends, and fellow firefighters of the victims.
i would hope that at some point, the safety issue will be reviewed and
possible solutions can be found.
DVE
I stand by my comment. Ab. |
| 06/26 |
Wildland firefighters, if you have favorite t-shirt vendors who
create shirts for different fires and ship around the country, let us know
how to get in touch with them to see if they want to take a classified ad.
We're getting LOTS of requests for fire t-shirts.
Ab. |
| 06/26 |
Just a note to update you about the Cleveland Engine rollover. The
injured
firefighter will probably be out the rest of the summer. He has several
screws and a plate in his injured leg. Everyone else involved should be
back
at work by Friday. The engine, on the other hand, didn't make it. For all
of
you who aren't familiar with the Ortega Highway where the accident
occurred,
it is a nasty, treachorous stretch of roadway, and we are very fortunate
that
this accident wasn't much worse. Our thanks to RRU for everything. Their
FIO
was wonderful in taking on the media, and the crews that responded did an
awesome job.
Stay safe out there, NOTHING is worth your life. Getting there safely is
just
as important as your safety once you arrive.
10-18, LCES,
Socal Dispatcher
Good news. Thanks for the update. Ab. |
| 06/26 |
Dear Abe: A long, hot, dry, stressful summer is ahead for our
firefighters.
Already, the "Grim Reaper" has started making the rounds and
this is not
good news.
GGP |
| 06/26 |
Dear Ab, I'm looking for info or help on getting the R5 fire pages
repaired.
For the past week none of the R5 links on their home page, www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/
will work using Internet Explorer. My friends can get them to work using
Netscape and Opera Browsers, but I don't have any of those.
I've emailed the listed webmaster for the pages, chiggins<snip>,
twice,
but to no avail. I even gave them the location of help pages to fix the
errors, which probably put me on their sh*t list......LOL.
I use the Situation Report pages to see the fires that my brother, a USFS
captain in the Angeles National Forest, has been sent to.
Is there any other way to get their attention and get the pages fixed?
Thanks for any help you can give,
PC
Hmmmmmm, I see what you mean, some message about detecting proxy
settings. There must be some readers from those offices who could help
out. Go on you guys, help chiggins out! Probably overwhelmed with work as
the rest of us are. Ab. |
| 06/26 |
G’day again Abs, hope you're not stretched too thin & there are
the usual feelings from here as were yours at Xmas – “how can we get
there & help?”
One question re evacuation of civilians. Having seen the footage of the
evacuation of Show Low, I’m curious why this is being done. Our EMA has
found that leaving residents with their homes has proved to be an
effective measure against losing homes to the fires. The qualifier is that
the homes need to be prepared, i.e. defensible space of cleared space
around the home, gutters cleared of leaves etc. By all means, get the
aged/infirm & kids out of the way early, but our experience is that
most homes are lost hours after the front has moved on and remaining
embers have started fires that are left unattended causing the loss of the
home. In fairness the traditional Aussie house is of brick & tile
construction, whereas in the affected areas wood seems to be the preferred
construction method. Is this a factor?
Also are the Canadairs getting any work on the Hayman or Rodeo fires?
Had the marketing push here coupla months ago just curious if they are
being committed in the remote areas.
Regards,
OB
Australia (whose country code is 61 if you need bods, trucks, rain (if we
can!!), just call) |
| 06/26 |
Bill M.
You may have seen that the fed agencies were set to adopt quarter turn
couplings (QTC) this year, but they dropped that like a hot rock when all
the managers and local fire depts. screamed about the cost. So NH and NPSH
are still the official fed couplings.
Only the Washington DNR and local fire depts. in Washington use the QTC,
and they got the idea (and the couplings) from CA. So, yes they are the
same.
islander |
| 06/26 |
The entire CDF exec order from Gov Davis can be read at
http://www.fire.ca.gov/
Dave |
| 06/26 |
AL and others interested in CDF fire budget woes, you may know this
already, but maybe not...
There was an article yesterday that said we should get paid our same
salaries as before -- and not the minimum wage even if there is no budget
by July 1. All may remember that some CA court had ruled that state
employees would get paid minimum wage if there is no budget by July 1.
That wage ruling is evidently going to the CA supreme court and, while it
is undecided, payment can continue as normal. Payments to state vendors
can continue too, but may stop if the budget isn't approved by August.
CDF SoCal |
| 06/26 |
CDF Fire update:
Calif Gov Davis signed an executive order for additional firefighting
resources for SoCal. A minimum of 4 firefighters will be assigned to crews
in Tulare, San Luis Obispo, San Diego, San Bernardino, Fresno and
Riverside counties. A fourth firefighter will be assigned in Los Angeles,
Orange, Kern, Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties when needed. In my
opinion, about time.
Davis also ordered CDF Fire to speed up fire safety inspections and
authorized activation of 10 fire lookouts in NorCal. He called for
implementation of the Aerial Infrared Imaging System (AIRIS) for flying
and imaging fireline and hotspots. The cost will be between 8 and 10
million dollars, in my opinion a small amount when compared to possible
losses in this very dry season. Again, about time.
AL |
| 06/26 |
An arrest on the ShowLow fire is not for arson.
GH |
| 06/26 |
Info40:
Check your sources. Two Calif Hotshot crews are assigned to the Rattle
Complex- Kern and Redding.
The Shoe |
| 06/26 |
Couplings:
Bill M.
I was asked that question a few years ago by one of my managers. Said
"I
don't know, I guess I will have to take a road trip up to BC and find
out."
He said "go to it."
Well, we took a nice drive to see the folks at BC Forestry, spent about 10
minutes trying different couplings from each side of the border, about 2
hours catching up on the latest news, went to lunch and then home.
Oh, I forgot to tell the boss that all the 1/4 turn we have says:
"Made in
Canada", but I had to go north just to make sure.
I do not know if there are any other styles or types of 1/4 turn couplings
used by other agencies then WADNR and BC Ministry of Forests, but I know
the
fittings I have used for the past 25 years will fit the ones in BC.
Nozzle Man |
| 06/26 |
sir/madam:
While watching the fires on the news lately, i am amazed that someone has
not come up with a hightech way to
combat the fires.... a thought: Has the government or forest industry
looked into using a similiar weapon they
used in Afganistan. It was a devise they exploded in caves that removed
the oxygen. Has or could a similiar
devise be used on a forest fire?
Pat Kane |
| 06/26 |
LB,
If your dispatching unit knows they're ready, that's about it.
R6 Dispatcher |
| 06/26 |
Great Basin Firefighter,
Many states have laws that increase penalties in the case where there is a
death that is associated with the commission of a felony. In some states
it can equate to a 1st degree murder charge, but not in Colorado. In
Colorado it can lead to reckless endangerment charges which can be
substantiated when there is a death.
6 |
| 06/25 |
You might want to check out familysaid
for a picture of the new fire shelter and other information on it. Thanks
to Robbie, whose sister is a wildland firefighter, for sending it in. Ab. |
| 06/25 |
Response to LB,
I also have a R6 Contract and am patiently waiting to help. The problem
the agencies have is not enough managers to manage the resources
available.
We could all pack up and go to the incident and throw a whole lot of
resources at the fire front (or in the case of AZ 2 miles from the front)
and we might be successful in putting it out!! But I guarantee you that
without sufficient support staff to do this in an organized fashion many
more would die... and we would waste alot of resources by not being
organized. It sounds like they are adding another type 1 incident team and
with that comes managers to manage resources such as ours. I know of some
R6 contractors that just left without dispatch and are on the fire line
getting paid, but they call that fire chasing (unethical) and my company
frowns on that practice. All I can say is to sit tight, be ready, make
sure your equipment is ready to go, pray for those on the fire line and
pray for your own safety if you go, if things get bad enough they will
call you! Remember it is only July 1st, things are going to get allot
worse!! I think the Rodeo fire will not be a record for this summer as far
as acreage goes.
Response to $$,
I don't care who started the fire in CO. Person or lighting, the problem
is not the one with the match because, as dry as things are, it is not a
matter of if things are going to burn, it's a matter of when! We as
citizens should be tallying up the cost of these fires, the deaths, and
bring a suit against the environmentalists who constantly stop or tie up
fuel treatments and commercial thinning on our lands. This has got to
stop!!! or our forest will continue to burn unless we do something!! I
know of many logging units that have more surviving species then what is
left over after a burn like these.
Just shooting off my humble opinion!!
AJM
Shall we name him fireMouth? Tongue in cheek. Ab. |
| 06/25 |
BLMBob.
Steven Pyne, the silly, he left out the ultimate answer for eliminating
the
fire threat to our nations wildlands, something I first heard in the '70's
when I worked in Southzone R-5. "PAVE IT AND PAINT IT GREEN"!!!
Gotta
give the guy credit though he did mention the dreaded "L" word
in his
commentary.
"Hee-Hee, he said LOGGING." Gotta use your Beavis - Butthead
voice when
you say that last line.
Later and B_SAFE
Backburnfs |
| 06/25 |
Cold Missouri Waters in MP3 format can be downloaded at:
www.keelaghan.com/missouri.mp3
Pulaski
Ab note: Thanks Pulaski. The size is 3508K so it will take a little
time, but is worth the wait if you don't already have it. |
| 06/25 |
Memorial Fund Established for Firefighters Killed in Van Roll-over
A memorial fund has been established for individuals and groups wishing to
contribute to the families of the five firefighters killed last Friday in
an accident near Glenwood Springs, Colorado. Grayback Forestry, Inc.
established the memorial fund through the Wildland Fire-Fighter Foundation
to honor Daniel Rama, Baker City, Oregon; Retha Shirley of La Grande,
Oregon; Bartholomew Bailey, Baker City, Oregon; Jacob Martindale, Boise,
Idaho; and Zachary Zigich, Twin Falls, Idaho.
Donations can be made to any U.S. Bank location, account number:
153315069551, the foundation website, www.wffoundation.org, or sent to the
foundation at 1310 Vista Avenue, Boise, Idaho 83705. Donations can be
specified for individual families. For more information, contact Vicki
Minor at 208-424-1111 or visit the website.
Angelica G. Johnson
Wallowa-Whitman National Forest, Public Affairs
agjohnson@fs.fed.us |
| 06/25 |
Can you provide the pertinent specification # for the Quarter Turn
Forestry
couplings used in the USA?
How do they compare to the Canadian Quarter Turn Forestry coupling
specifications?
Thank you for your assistance.
Bill M |
| 06/25 |
My husband works for AAA Thunderbolt, signed up with R6 Malheur National
Forest. They really want to help. They have been watching the fires on the
media and don't know why they haven't been called to help. They have 8
trucks and crews ready to roll. Is there anything more to do to let it be
known they're ready and raring to go?
Thank You,
LB |
| 06/25 |
Greetings AB & fellow brothers & sisters...
* I have a question that I am hoping someone can answer...I know that
when a fire is deemed "human-caused" the person responsible
(intentional or not) for causing the ignition is at risk for the
likelihood of being held financially responsible for the cost of the fire
suppression. But, if firefighters or the public are hurt/killed either en
route to, actually on or as a result of that fire, can the person
responsible for starting the fire also be held responsible for the
casualties? Frankly put...can Terry be held responsible for the deaths of
the 4 fire fighters who were responding to the Hayman Incident, or the
50-year old woman who died due to the smoke of the Hayman Fire (and her
asthma)?
*Also, for those brothers & sisters who are fighting the massive
fire in Arizona...I have family who had to leave their home behind and get
to a safer place...a huge THANK YOU in advanced for your efforts despite
the grim speculations on the outcome.
*My husband tells me, when one of us walks out the door to respond to a
fire..."Before you make any suppression tactics, instill your 10
& 18, and base it on your LCES. In doing this, you won't get into
trouble, and you'll come back home." It sounds simple I know...but
it's so important to remember this in the heat of the battle. There are a
lot of new people in supervisory positions this year out on the fireline,
and to all of you...one of the most important things you can teach your
crew besides safe suppression tactics... is what to do IF something goes
to hell on you unexpectedly (they are never foreseen but you can be
prepared). Practice your engine protection skills, and do it often. When
things are slow, play the "What If" game, make sure your crew
will be safe. It's probably one of the most important pieces of
information you can pass on to them. They look up to you for guidance, and
are hungry for more knowledge, use that opportunity to make them the best
that they can be. I am not sure if you all are familiar with the song
"Cold Missouri Waters" about the Man Gulch Fire, but every time
my crew & I get released from a fire (no matter how big or small) we
always play that song...it helps us to remember that our current safety
guidelines are in place because someone else did not come home one night
to their family.
Our job is just as dangerous as it always has been in the past, and every
year we grieve the loss of brothers/sisters who die doing a job they are
stoked about being a part of and knowing all to well, the risks that are
at stake. Does this make it any easier to accept? No... Does it justify
the mourning and sadness we experience each season? No, but we can learn
from these tragedies, make sure their deaths are not in vain or forgotten,
ensure our safety is never compromised, and that <YOUR NAME HERE> is
never placed on our wall of Remembrance, or final details of your memorial
service are being posted.
Next time you have a day off and are home with your loved ones, embrace
them tight, hold them close and tell them how much you love them. Remember
how good it feels. Keep it in your mind when you are rushing out the door
to fight a fire. Make it your goal to return to them. And make it your
goal to come back to WILDLAND FIRE.com at the end of the season to share
your stories, wisdom and understanding to the crazy world that we all
love..."chasing the dragon the roams our lands with massive
destruction."
I did not intend for this post to sound negative, I along with the rest of
you find this line of work fulfilling and can't imagine spending my long,
hot summer days & nights doing anything else, but if you are unsure
about anything... ASK! And if you don't feel 100% "safe" on an
assignment, REFUSE! I promise, nobody will look down on you for wanting to
stay safe & alive.
*May you all have a safe, fun and prosperous summer.
10, 18 & LCES,
~*~Great Basin Firefighter~*~ |
| 06/25 |
IR1,
Those were my symptoms exactly! I had trouble not thinking about fire
for more than about 2 minutes at a time. One psychologist suggested my
brain had been rewired during my multi-month exposure to fire and smoke.
One person said that many in my condition and with my background joined
the 180 Club as their lives were changed forever. They said the
smokejumpers had the most members in this club...
Well, the support I received from Ab, R5 Firecapt, Hickman, WP, Old Fire
Guy, the webgoddess, and others at this site certainly helped me past the
early stages of my smoke/fire exposure syndrome. My life has indeed been
turned around - no regrets. I am a participating member of the 180 Club.
For a short time, I considered that some of us should organize a
scientific study that could show if/how firefighter brains were rearranged
by smoke/fire exposure. Then I decided <naw> I'd rather handle a
Pulaski <smirk> than catscans, other scientific instruments, and
records, and analysis <boring>.
Patrizia, there are people studying the effects of inhaling smoke, one
guy at Harvard School of Public Health - Joel Schwartz - has studied the
effects of particulate matter in smoke with an eye to its carcinogenic
nature. If you get one or more of his articles, I'm sure you'll have a
ballooning reference list to explore. Air quality is one of the leading
areas of research these days. Also Roger Ottmar in the Seattle area has
done some work.
IR1-2 (aka Mellie)
More coming, lemme go look on the net...
Ab add this please...
Go to Google search. Enter smoke and ottmar as keywords. A
whole wealth of good and current research, including "Smoke Exposure
on Prescribed Burns". |
| 06/25 |
For Patrizia Palla who is researching the effects of smoke:
The consequences of smoke inhaled by firefighters
are varied and multiple. Here are a few symptoms of smoke inhalation
I’ve suffered or observed in others that I consider fairly common.
· Soon after returning home from their first smoke inhalation incident
the victim may appear anxious and impatient. They may even confide a
secret desire to experience a repeat episode.
· Friends or family members who have not experienced their own smoke
exposures are unable to effectively communicate with the victim.
· The victim may suffer extreme mood swings, at times expressing high
levels of excitement as they try to relay their experiences to others,
then various levels of depression as they are unsure of the duration of
time until the next exposure.
· After multiple exposures to equal or higher concentrations of smoke,
many victims are known to exhibit irrational periods of frustration and
anger even though they are allowed to remain home for extended periods
of time with family and loved ones. During the most pronounced episodes
the victim may display evidence of paranoia wherein they wildly begin
blaming co-workers, supervisors, dispatchers, or others for preventing
additional exposures.
· With the onset of winter or rainy season, these same victims may
suffer an additional short-term depression with the realization they
will be free from exposure for several months. As they learn to accept
this reality, they normally return to their previous gentle and happy
demeanor. There are some however, whom never seem to reach a level of
saturation or contentment and will do anything or go anywhere in search
of additional exposure.
There is no known cure to offer those who experience their first smoke
exposure that will prevent them from seeking more. Little is known about
why or how they can be immediately and hopelessly addicted (even with
just one short exposure). Long time friends can be cast aside and families
destroyed by the victim’s obsession and their relentless quest for
another “fix”.
I offer these humble observations in the hope that your friend’s thesis
shed some wisdom and hopefully enlighten us all, that we may better
understand how to cope with current and future victims.
IR1 |
| 06/25 |
To me, Steven Pyne usually makes good sense. He's one of our own of
course,
but as a historian, he has a long-range perspective that is really
interesting. In this NY Times editorial, he takes a clear view, free of
hype,
hysteria, and agendas. In particular, I like where he says America doesn't
have a fire problem, it has many fire problems that require complex
approaches. It's a good antidote to listening to clueless politicians,
news
announcers, and commentators asking inane questions about fires.
Recommended
reading:
www.nytimes.com/2002/06/25/opinion/25PYNE.html
(Requires no-cost registration with the NY Times)
BLM Bob |
| 06/25 |
Info40 - 1) Might check the fire danger in R5. Might be its a just bit
high. 2) IF a fire went and all the crews were in AZ watching the fire
burn, where might R5 find a crew or two? (12 fires for 2000+ acres in SO.
Cal yesterday). 3) R5 shot crews are much more part of the IA response
than in other regions, and at current Planning Levels it just might
behoove the prudent fire manager to have a couple around per their
response plans. 4) Might be those R5 and NIFC folks know exactly what they
are doing. Might be that action is debatable either way, but they made it
and it seems reasonable to me. Type I crews are always in short supply at
times like this, and if all were committed, they would still be in short
supply.
It ain't fun sitting at home guarding the home turf from the "big
one" but, like mop up, that is part of the job sometimes.
And if were to see "abuse" whatever that means, the press,
NBC or any one else would be last ones I would call. In fact I wouldn't
call 'em at all.
For WEB - Rotorwash? Hook? RemoteHook?, Chinbubble? Turbine? Blades.
Bed time,
olddog |
| 06/25 |
Officer A. Moos -
In regards to your 6/19 post, I think good news may be on the way. I
have it on good authority that FEMA is working on releasing some standard
ICS guidance for all-risk use, in response to all kinds of incidents. In
reality, the system was actually developed for all-risk use, but was
largely tailored by wildfire use during its development as there were so
many wildfires available for testing the system in southern California,
where it was developed. It has of course been used for all kinds of law
enforcement and other uses, including OK City, WTC and the Pentagon
incidents, floods, hurricanes, airplane crashes, oil spills, hazmat, etc
etc., but this may not be widely known. Anyway, the direction from Bush's
proposed Dept. of Homeland Security mandates one standard incident
management system for the entire government, which will hopefully be ICS.
The Coast Guard already uses it, and the USDA and DOT may be on their way.
Both the White House and FEMA Web sites have some information on this, and
information on money planned for local governmnent and first responder
use. Bottom line, streamlining emergency response could have a significant
impact on mitigating incidents and saving lives, etc. and ICS has well
proven itself.
My heart has been heavy since hearing of the tanker crash last week,
and the numerous incidents and deaths since. A community I used to live in
is burning up as we speak, and I think often of the crazy risks wildland
firefighters take that are not understood, or dare I say, appreciated by
the taxpayer?. My thoughts are with the entire community as you grieve
lost friends and family, and as you fight like hell to save a town or a
home. I used to say we were different than structure firefighters, that we
don't save lives and homes, but I think that was my naivete coming
through. If this season doesn't prove beyond a doubt that "we're all
real goddam firefighters" then I don't know what would. I am sick to
my stomach to hear of firefighter deaths, and furthermore to think that
most of us are seasonal, no benefits, no year-round employment, with
incredibly low pay compared to paid structure departments. I'm not sure
what it takes to move forward from here, but you can believe I'll be
looking for answers where I can. I have no doubt in my mind this season
has only just begun... posted fire danger conditions in several of the
GACCs forecast extreme conditions, and at the beginning of a very long and
tiring summer.
PLEASE be careful out there. All indications are that this is a
once-in-a-lifetime season. No home is worth dying for, no emergency is
worth getting burned, and people are. Take care--
-from the concrete boondocks out yonder |
| 06/25 |
Ab
i wanted to say thank you for keeping up this site. I also wanted to say
thank you to every one that writes in. I am a daughter and wife of
firefighters and i come to this site to get comfort and information from
this site.
thanks Genia |
| 06/25 |
Ab,
sorrow, grief, and prayers are all coming from the S. Front this evening.
we have dealt with many tragedys this week, and can only hope that there
are no more to come this wild fire season.
Although it is only june, I can only hope that all of us out there keep
one foot in the black and come home to our loved one's every night (of
when ever is possible).
Please every one, use your heads, and not your check books to decide on
what's right to do. The couple of extra hours of driving or digging on the
line are NOT WORTH what could happen!.................(I'll get into what
we were hired to do and what we were hired to not do later)!
Please be smart/safe
Irate |
| 06/25 |
A fifth member of the Grayback crew died today. May he rest in peace.
www.denverpost.com
The company owner is quoted as saying "We felt we had one of the best
safety policies in the industry, and we're just going to upgrade that and
go from there." and the story goes on to state "The crew was on
what was to be a 30-hour nonstop drive from Oregon."
In an other article the first fatality from Hayman has been documented.
Real sad story.
www.denverpost.com
The Colorado State Attorney General is looking into filing charges against
Ms. Barton. If she is tried and convicted of a felony in a state court,
there can be 6 six deaths that could now be associated with that felony.
I know that I am preaching to the choir, but if you are dispatched to a
fire here in Colorado:
- The fire conditions beyond crazy. Keep your heads up!
- Enjoy the state. It is still beautiful here.
- Have some fun, make some money, bring a camera.
- Have a SAFE trip home at the end of a SAFE tour.
- Thanks for the help, we really appreciate it this year!
Sorry about the lecture,
6 |
| 06/24 |
On the evening news the announcer said that there were going to be 4
Type 1 Incident Management Teams on the joined Rodeo-Chediski fires and
that was the most ever. Teams are Humphrey, Bateman, Dash and Martin. Does
anyone know if this is true that it's the most? Wonder how the politics
are with that arrangement. I remember how hard it was to have 2 on the
bigbar.
Jim |
| 06/24 |
Looking for the whereabouts of the midewin hot shot crew.
Any ideas? Have a family member on the crew.
Whit |
| 06/24 |
thanks Fireronin, for your time and insight.
pb |
| 06/24 |
This is one side of the story, here's
the Terry that family and friends know:
www.washingtonpost.com |
| 06/24 |
Just to let everyone know, the Firefighter that was hurt on the Rodeo
Fire,
was released from the hospital with 2nd and 3rd degree burns. According to
Fox news.
Driftsmoke |
| 06/24 |
Connie Chung is interviewing the Barton family tonight. It's reported
that they want to be supportive of Terry. CNN, 8PM Eastern, 5 PM Pacific.
I hope the family is ready for this. Usually the procedure for such an
interview is that the interviewees receive interview questions ahead of
time which they mentally prepare for.
Some years ago a friend of mine being interviewed by Connie got his list
and prepared, but then Connie deviated and threw him a curve... Not a
completely wildhair question, but enough to make him anxious in front of
the cameras. He is a renowned scientist. Doesn't do anxious very well.
Maybe that curve was added in an attempt to make things appear more
"spontaneous". I considered it an underhanded journalistic ploy
at the time. Hope that doesn't happen tonight. Different network,
different policies? Hopefully not the same MO. We need clarity and
fairness not some anxious answer that prejudices the Public for the sake
of selling a few more commercials.
On another note, how about some more interesting monikers. WEB has the
right idea Ab... Could have some new ones come out of this "big
fire"... BentColumn, Anvil, 200000Feet, Burnout, Ash, Cinder, Torch,
CrownFire (may have one of those), Coyote (definitely already taken),
HeadLamp, RedBag, Combi'Tool <little madonna smile>. Aghhhhh, stop!
I think people should get creative. Forget those initials, Ab! O'course,
I'd hate to see some of my favorite initials change to monikers... Maybe
we should come up with good monikers and have a list so people can
choose... Ab, whatcha think? Can you tell I'm looking for a little
lightness and humor?
Mellie
Ab sez "Sure." |
| 06/24 |
TK posted a statement that the rate of firefighters involved in motor
vehicle accidents was lower than that of the general public. Would that it
were so! Motor vehicle accidents consistently rank #2 (behind heart
attacks) as the chief cause of firefighter fatalities. Take a look at the
stories www.firehouse.com/lodd. It is bad enough that NIOSH published a
bulletin this year, specifically regarding tender accidents, which
continue to rate even higher proportionally in killing and injuring
firefighters. View it at www.cdc.gov/niosh/truckroll.html
.
While I agree that we should not be in a rush to blame anyone for the
most recent accident, I think that eveyone should recognize that a
"heads-up" attitude is needed on the roads, too.
sign me "islander"
I took what TK said to mean that firefighters on highways/roadways have
fewer vehicular accidents under normal conditions when compared to the
general public on similar highways/roadways under similar normal
conditions. It's clear that wildland firefighters driving on wilderness
roads and singletracks under smoky conditions, etc have more accidents and
fatalities than the general public, in part because of the dangerous
conditions, not because they're worse drivers. Water tenders are big and
wide and heavy, which might put them at even more risk than other vehicles
for rollover. Less margin for error in hooking that rear wheel on the
shoulder.
Anybody know where motor vehicle accidents rank in terms of causes of the
general public's fatalities? Could they be the biggest killer?
We need to be careful at all times when driving, but particularly when
driving under extreme conditions off the beaten paths and particularly
when driving large and/or unfamiliar vehicles.
TK, comments? Ab. |
| 06/24 |
PB,
Unless equipment needs to be transported it is SOP for govt. entities to
fly firefighters to the airport nearest the incident they are assigned to
if it is a long distance. Sometimes even when equipment needs transport it
is loaded on flatbeds or trains and shipped to the incident. I think that
is rare. Some employers try to save money by sending as many firefighters
along with equipment as possible. I have seen as many as four packed in a
front seat that only had two seatbelts. Bad policy! Also rare. Govt.
entities usually get cut rate flight prices. Private contractors rarely
get flight discounts so they tend to send crews to incidents via road trip
more than the Feds. or States.
I have no problem with driving to a distant incident...as long as laws
are not broken and safety procedures are followed. In most states all
front seat passengers must have a seat belt available for use...some
states require its' use. Many states require a "chauffeurs"
lisc. when driving with passengers for pay.
Personally I find it near impossible to rest decently sitting in a
moving vehicle. As such I don't believe that simply switching drivers
regularly is a safe practice. The "fresh" driver could be as
fatigued as the one being replaced. Safe driving is more than not falling
asleep at the wheel...it involves being alert. Being alert requires
rest...real rest. If you are driving impaired from lack of rest...you are
endangering not only yourself, but your passengers and the public as well.
8 hours in a motel room every 24 hours might be a good standard...but 4
hours on the ground might me a good minimum. If you have to pull off into
a rest stop and lay out your bed rolls for a few hours to remain alert
please do it.
I want to restate that I am not implying anything bad about Grayback or
its' policies. Nor am I pointing fingers at the driver or passengers that
were involved in our latest tragedy. I am simply taking this opportunity
to answer PB's question as best I can and hoping that any discussion will
lead to a greater level of safety for my brother and sisters on, and on
their way to, the fireline.
There was an earlier post about how it was difficult for ICs to
determine how long incoming firefighters had been without rest. I would
suggest that polling them as they arrive about when they left and where
they rested prior to arriving would not be all that difficult. Of course
Portal to Portal Pay for all firefighters (including private contractors
and ADs) would be a policy that would encourage all firefighters to get
adequate rest prior to arriving at the incident and going on active duty.
Of course there would still be some that would be so gung ho to get to the
fire that they would push themselves and those around to abandon some
safety guidelines. Sometimes staying safe means saying no.
Fireronin |
| 06/24 |
First firefighter injured on the fireline in AZ.
Extent and cause of injuries are unknown.
VG |
| 06/24 |
Greetings Ab,
Wow, is this ironic! From the upcoming events on the FireWise web site:
---------------------
June 29
White Mountain Regional Firewise Workshop
Sponsor: White Mountain Apache Tribe and the Pinetop Fire Department
Sponsor address: 1845 S. Pinelake RD, Pinetop, AZ 85935
Time: 7:30 am - 12:30 pm
Location: Hondah Casino and Convention Center
Event Cost: $10.00
Brief Directions: 3 Miles east of Pinetop AZ at the Junction of Highways
260 and 73.
Description: Sponsored by the White Mountain Apache Tribe Fire and Rescue
and the Pinetop Fire Department with additional support by the Arizona
State Land Dept., Navajo County Extension Services and the U.S. Forest
Service.
----------------------------
Unimog1201 |
| 06/24 |
Why are all the R-5 Hotshot/MEL Crews Sitting While AZ Burning?
Just found out there are over 280 outstanding crew orders sitting at NIFC
but
the R-5 crews are sitting. They "appear" to be committed to a
local fire on
the Sit300 report but when you call and ask them what they are doing
theyre
all at home. Huh!?!? As a TAX payer this irritates me to no end. Something
should be said about this and it should be looked into.
If you know of any abuse please report it. Better yet go to a local AZ
media
site and report it. NBC in Phoenix would like to know about this.
Info40 |
| 06/24 |
Memorial services over the weekend for the three AT firefighters who
died in the downed C-130 on the Cannon Fire.
On Sat a memorial for all three at the Douglas High School football field.
www.rgj.com
Also a very nice memorial yesterday for Steve Wass, captain -- at the
Minden-Tahoe Airport. The Jimi Hendrix rendition of the Star Spangled
Banner was awesome and so appropriate for Steve.
www.nevadaappeal.com
All three will be missed.
J |
| 06/24 |
I have a different perspective on DVE's previous post. I believe DVE is
just looking for answers like the rest of us. Nobody can tell me they
haven't thought the same thing or had the same questions. I do not
believe DVE meant to be malicious. DVE just chose to express those
thoughts while the rest of us sit and ponder the same unanswered
questions. We all express our grief differently. It's time for everyone to
lighten up! Let's be supportive of each other instead of taking out our
frustrations on each other for the way we express ourselves in this forum
(even if it is sometimes done poorly).
IA Dispatcher |
| 06/24 |
Here are several "slurry" fighter/bomber bomber aircraft taken
at Jeffco
Airport Broomfield, CO on 6/21/02. You can put these on your website if
you want. Very nice website by the way!
Scott
Thanks, put 'em on the AirTanker4 and AirTanker5
photo pages. Ab. |
| 06/24 |
Bonjour,
I was F/O on a Canadian A/C under subcontractor ops. for flight
test, air show demonstration, plus I collaborated in Greece for water
bombing
with a355 MTM Hellenic air force (squadron). I am sending in some photos.
If you make me small place in your site for more, I will fill that place.
Some
to come later are an air show in Istanbul, some in Ankara, from Elefsina
Greece,
Zagreb and Zadard in Croatia and a picture of a Big chopper (skycrane).
Real one, huge fire, low pass, and more. Any way to get money from it?
My English is not too good because I am French Canadian, Quebec part.
The first two photos I sent were taken in Athens 2000 and I have more.
Look at the downwash of that one helicopter.
Thank for your time and interest and if you decide to go ahead with a
place for me you have to correct the text.
Pierre Hamel
Nice photos Pierre. I did correct your English a bit, but you did well.
I will email you about sending more photos. I put the first two from
Greece on the AirTanker 5 photo page and
the third one on the Helocopter 7 photo
page. Readers, can anyone fill in any more about the ship on Air5? Ab. |
| 06/24 |
Hello Abs: Sitting around with the day off today while waiting for that
engine assignment from here to there somewhere and browsed thru a grocery
sack of old photos, and came across these among others. I,m not real great
at scanning and mailing, but here goes.
#1 Hover hook by N.Carolina Forestry. The guy in the open door was the
signalman and talked to the pilot.
#2 S-58 (?) Brainard Helis getting ready for a pick.
#3 Houeston Helis 212 in conference
#4 Crescent Airways 206 B3 on floats.
The first 3 shots were taken on a fire in the glades sometime around '87
or '88 .
The 206 on floats was taken in Minnesota where the Superior N.F. had a 100
day exclusive use contract from around '81-93 ? That ship also was
contracted to Everglades N.P. for the winter season .
Will send more shots later as I find them. Also limit to 3 or 4 scans at a
time so my ISP doesn't kick me out. Edit this as you wish..
thanks,
WEB
PS give me a name of your choosing!
Thank YOU, WEB. Put them on the Helocopter7
page. Also put up a helitorch image "Torchin on the Colville Rez
Spring '02" from Charles.
So ya want/need a moniker, eh? How about something connected with your
helo work on fire? Like AirSupport or RotorWash or BucketDrop or Bambi?
<HAR> Readers -- and I can think of a few of you who are waaaaaaay
too good at monikers -- got any ideas what I should baptize him with? Must
be "clean"... I know that might be a stretch. Suggestions can
always be passed around off the record.
More photos in other categories coming soon. We'll need to update the
dropdown menu on the left of all photo pages, but that may take a little
time until the appropriate Ab returns. To find the new photo pages not on
the dropdown menu, simply go to the Photo page. All categories are listed
there on the grid and on the photo description pages grids.
Ab. |
| 06/23 |
Hi Ab,
Just a question and a comment or two. Does anyone know where you can
send cards etc. for the Grayback firefighters? Being a mother and
mother-in-law of 3 wildland firefighters and a mother who had one son die
at Storm King in 94, I think the main thing people should remember is that
the families need your prayers, letters, cards, and special memories.
There is no such thing as closure; you learn to live with it. It is always
in the back of your mind everyday. I hate it when the media say they need
to find closure and I have told more than one of them there is no such
thing. Most of the media were very good to us and quoted us pretty
accurately. But when they asked you how to you feel, I really wanted to
scream at them and ask them if they are some kind of idiots. How do you
think we feel?
Please be Safe
NOTHING AND I MEAN NOTHING IS WORTH YOUR LIFE.
KEEP YOUR HEADS UP.
IF YOU HAVE A BAD FEELING, GET OUT!
Stay safe.
I pray for all of you daily.
Kat
Thanks, Kat, for writing in and for your prayers. Our condolences to
you and your family for your great loss then and now. I wish you could
know how many of us continue to grieve for those guys and gals we lost on
Storm King Mountain. Ab. |
| 06/23 |
I'll agree with all that now is not the time to point fingers after the
tragedy with the Greyback crew. It's barely summer and we've already lost
7
firefighters. I've also heard something about an engine crew being lost in
South Dakota a bit ago?
But... since we're on the topic... I think that in CA, if you're driving a
van/bus whatever with more than 10? passengers for pay; you need a
commercial license with a passenger endorsement. Would it have helped
here?
Probably not. Except that someone with a commercial license _may_ have
more
experience behind the wheel. Maybe not. I seem to recall that CDF used to
bring in relief drivers just for the crew buggies. Haven't seen that
lately, and I'm not sure why. I know I've had to stop on the way to and
from fires to wake up a little.
JF |
| 06/23 |
It was not my intent, and I apologize profusely if my inquiry was taken
as such, to lay blame on the driver(s) of the vehicle. My question was
simply is this SOP by FF agencies to have staff drive such a distance vs
flying them in. My heartfelt condolence to all the families and again,
my apology if my inquiry offended anyone.
PB |
| 06/23 |
I think there is one thing people should keep in mind about driving on
America's highways: it's dangerous. Just because YOU haven't gotten in an
accident lately or ever doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Consider that the
percentage of firefighters involved in accidents in relation to the total
number of firefighters traveling these highways is MUCH lower than the
percentage of ordinary motorists involved in accidents compared to the
total number of ordinary motorists on the road. And accidents happen.
There were 11 crew members riding in the Grayback van, do you think the
same person was driving all the way from Oregon? So let's cut out the
blame sh*t and the what happened sh*t here and accept that statistically
we are lucky that there aren't more accidents involving firefighters than
there are.
*Thinking of our lost brothers and sisters AND those who are injured
but still with us who have to face what has happened to them, and who
already have more than enough strangers speculating on what happened*
TK
P.S. to the Padre: With all due respect: on the fire line god ain't
gonna save you, only your own brain will, so yes, there is at least one
atheist on the fire line. |
| 06/23 |
From Firescribe:
azcentral.com
fire slideshow
lagrandeobserver.com
rollover report
azcentral.com
on shots
sfgate.com
on life in firecamp |
| 06/23 |
This rarticle by JOHN N. MACLEAN is running in the NYTimes on 06/23.
Tough
Times for People Who Battle Wildland Blazes
(a no cost registration is required) |
| 06/23 |
This came to us from several sources who assure us that it is alright
to post it and that it important to post it. We agree. It is important to
remember that there are perspectives and personal truths to be heard. We
leave it to readers to form their own opinions regarding the media
reporting on this case. Ab.
Subject: Thirtymile Administrative Investigation
To: U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell; U.S Senator Patty Murray; Hon. Rep.
"Doc" Hastings; Forest Chief Dale Bosworth; Regional Forester
Harv Forsgren; Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal; Fire and Aviation Director
Laurie Perrett; and Human Resources Director Roy Roosevelt
Re: Recent disciplinary action taken regarding Thirtymile Incident
Date: 6/12/02
Following is a letter written by Bill Kampen, Pete
Kampen's father. Pete is one of the eleven who has proposed action
being taken against him. This puts a face, name and circumstances to
some of what the Forest Service is doing. Bill sent this to the chief,
regional forester, senator cantwell, and doc hastings as well as a
number of other people. He and Pete both want to share this and it is OK
to pass it on to whoever you see fit....d<name snipped>
<Ab note: If any of you would like to
respond privately to Mr. Kampen, we will pass your comments along. We
have removed his e-mail address and phone number from this document.>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Message
from "William Kampen" on Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:52:04 -0700 -----
|
Subject:
|
Thirtymile Administrative Investigation
|
To: U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell; U.S Senator Patty Murray; Hon. Rep.
"Doc" Hastings; Forest Chief Dale Bosworth; Regional Forester
Harv Forsgren; Forest Supervisor Sonny O'Neal; Fire and Aviation
Director Laurie Perrett; and Human Resources Director Roy Roosevelt
Re: Recent disciplinary action taken regarding Thirtymile Incident
Date: 6/12/02
After studying the USFS Thirtymile Fire Investigative Report, reading
and cataloging the Yakima Herald's articles, and studying the
heart-wrenching testimony of survivors, I have tried to make some sense
out of the "Administrative Investigation" which is going on
now. The observations below are based on factual information, logic, and
common sense. Before I take additional action, I would appreciate your
comments. Thank you for taking time to read this, and I will look
forward to hearing from you.
A. Thirtymile Claims 11 More Victims; Herald
Celebrates
Four very fine young people died in a tragic fire at Thirtymile last
July 10. Nothing can erase the anguish that this has caused their
families. My wife and I have great empathy for them, especially when we
think how close we came to losing our son in this fire, too. We hope
that they can soon find a path that leads to healing.
In late March, an article appeared in the Wenatchee World which
seemed to blame our son, and him alone, for the tragedy at Thirtymile.
We thought this must be some kind of mistake, since Pete was a trainee
on the initial attack phase of the fire only, during which time there
were no injuries. I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the story, Michelle
Partridge, and in her reply she informed me that Pete was one of the
"key people" being "targeted" by
"critics and relatives" as well as "congressional
leaders."
Further inquiry led me to the Yakima Herald website, where I was able
to review all articles written about Thirtymile over the previous 7
months. I was appalled by what I found. We immediately wrote to Senator
Cantwell expressing our concerns, but she declined to reply.
The Herald invariably directed its invectives at the "commanders,"
an ambiguous term that could mean anything from "all fire
management" to "incident commanders." It was
readily apparent from certain allegations made by the Herald that Pete
was included in this group, and was definitely among those being so
viciously and publicly attacked. Senator Cantwell, according to a Jan.10
article in the Herald, was distressed "that the Forest Ser-vice
hasn't disciplined or fired employees responsible for safety
violations at Thirtymile."
B. Rush to Judgment: The Helicopter
On September 2, over three weeks before the official USFS Fire
Investigation Report was released, The Herald published four articles
about Thirtymile, among them "Requests for Helicopters Came
Late" and "Commanders Didn't Follow Safety
Guidelines," both written by Tom Roeder. Both contained
factual errors which reflected negatively on fire leaders, including
Pete, which I assumed at the time were inadvertent. Now I am not so
sure.
Let's take the helicopter allegation first, although Mr. Roeder's
version of the story was put to rest long ago. The facts are that the
crew leaders were initially told that the helicopter would be
available for bucket use from 10:00 a.m. on, and they requested it
shortly thereafter. When it didn't appear, they kept calling dispatch to
ask when it would arrive, because without aerial water support their
crew had little chance of controlling the fire.
After some bureaucratic rules were sorted out, the helicopter was
finally allowed to take off at 2:38 p.m., too late to make a difference.
As the USFS Investigative Report subsequently confirmed, this delay was
due to factors completely outside the IC's control. For over four
hours, NWR Crew #6, many of them young and inexperienced, fought to
contain this fire until water support could arrive. When they finally
abandoned their effort in mid-afternoon, all were exhausted, but safe.
C. Rush to Judgment: The Commanders were
Responsible! .......
To read the rest of this very important perspective, click HERE.
You can then scroll up or down for the full critique. This document is a
"must read" and will be included under Documents Worth
Reading on the Archives page and on the Site
Map page with the links to the other 30mi documents. Ab.
|
| 06/23 |
Greetings from Italy!
A friend of mine - a firefigther - is preparing his thesis (School of
Medicine) on the consequences of smoke inhaled by firefigthers during
wildland fires. There is not much documentation available over here in
Italy, so I started to search the Net and found your website. Is there
any way that you can help me? Any article that has been published? Or
any link I may refer to?
Your assistance would be very much appreciated! Thanks in advance.
Patrizia Palla |
| 06/23 |
I have been a "lurker" for a long time, and I just have say
something.
DVE & PB: What happened to the Grayback crew is awful thing. Now is
NOT the
time to decide the who, where, when, what why and how's. We should be
remembering and mourning. The authorities will figure out what happened,
and appropriate action will be taken. Think about the other 7 vans, the
probably had to watch what happened to their fellow crew, then had the
rest
of the drive to think about what happened. For just a minute, imagine what
they are going through.
Everyone seems so quick to judge, these people are part of our
"family." We
should give them the respect they deserve for giving their all.
My suggestion is to put all the negativity in the can and pray...this is
going to be a very long fire season.
CS |
| 06/23 |
To those who want to jump on the band wagon and run off about who caused
this and that, stop and think of yourself and your actions. Not one of
us that has been called to a burn job has not stepped it up a notch to
get there. Some facts to bring you up to date on driving regs. For a van
one only needs a valid drivers license. If you are driving a rig with
air brakes and also one that exceeds certain weight requirements then
you need a CDL which does have limitations on driving time, ie..ten hours
driving time and then a eight hour break. I am sure that the folks in
the accident had been trading off driving duties. Lets not point fingers
and blame when we don't know all the facts. One thing we all need to
remember, they are our brothers and sisters, lets take the time to pray
and grieve, support the families and survivors instead of playing the
devil's advocate. God bless those that we lost this year and their
families.
BE SAFE OUT THERE FOLKS, ITS ONLY TREES. YOUR LIFE IS TOO
PRECIOUS TO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILIES AND THE REST OF US.
SEE YOU ON THE LINE, LETS BE SAFE OUT THERE!
Mike
Don't mean to sound off but some folks need to engage their brains
before there mouths. |
| 06/23 |
Ab and everyone, back home from Colorado for 2 days then back on the
road monday to ??.
Sitting here in La Grande wondering why this little town is getting
more than it's share of grief this week. First the T-130 goes down and
kills all aboard and now more of our brothers and sisters are killed in a
vehicle rollover.
It isn't even July yet and engine crews are getting burned over in
Southern California.
I don't want to sound like a cliche but everyone watch your and your
buddies' backs, fronts and sides real close.
Don't be afraid to stop for an extra hour for a long lunch break while
driving long distances. And treat your crews like they deserve to be
treated. Get a motel and some good rest if you can when on the road. What
is a couple of bucks for firefighters rooms out of the millions we spend
on trying to slay these dragons.
Don't let the desire for a couple extra hours of OT allow you to try to
push on another 100 miles when you know you need a break for the drivers
or yourself.
Most of all enjoy the people you work with and your families while you
can 'cause we don't get any guarantee on our length of service here on
this ball of dirt.
God Bless all you who read this and especially the families of those
who have bumped ahead of us on that long fireline to heaven.
Praying For Rain. |
| 06/23 |
Dear Ab.,
Do you or anyone have a current needs list for the position of dozer boss,
falling bass, strike team leaders, or task force leaders?
R3Firetaz
We've been talking about doing one. There is the Fire Job Connection on
the Classifieds page. Ab. |
| 06/23 |
As a former fire-rescue medic turned priest, just wanted to let you know
we're praying for the safety of all of you out there on the lines. Watch
yourselves and take care. (Someone once said there's no atheists in
foxholes - I haven't found any on the firelines yet either! ) Take care
and God be with you!
Padre |
| 06/23 |
DVE,
Contractors aren't the only ones that drive long and hard to get to
incidents they are dispatched
to. When I was "farmed out" by my state we drove our convoys
strait throughout to the fire and
were often sent directly to the fireline without rest. Sometimes that
meant we were without rest
for over 48 hrs. Now that ICs' may be held liable for doing so (if
fatalities result) firefighters may
be somewhat assured of getting rest prior to being sent to the line. I am
not sure about who
would be held accountable for allowing or encouraging "their
firefighters" to drive long hours
cross country to a fire they have been dispatched to. I don't think there
are laws prohibiting it but
the probability of civil suit for willful negligence might well be applied
to any employer who does
so. Of course private contractors are more vulnerable to civil suit than
govt. entities. I wonder if
most have a policy on this?
Grayback has a good reputation as an employer and I don't think they would
encourage
firefighters working for them to exceed reasonable hours of driving when
in "travel status". Of
course most of us don't need encouragement to do so. When we are
dispatched most of us are
very eager to "get to the fire". I agree with Olddog about the
authorities being able to determine
who was "at fault". Personally though I won't even care for a
while. Now is the time for
mourning.
I am sick at heart for my fallen comrades and my thoughts and prayers
center on their families,
the survivors and their recovery. It is still early in the season and we
have lost so many. Too
many. As the sun rises each morning I pray that we all will slow down,
think safety first, and
watch out for each other.
Fireronin |
| 06/23 |
For God's sake, DVE, let the wheels stop turning before you start to
question everything that happened in the
accident.
WES |
| 06/23 |
Condolences to the family and friends of the Grayback crew who lost
their lives or were injured in that tragic accide | |