These photos are from Marcia Shorter, a recreational boater on Roosevelt Lake who was in the right place at the right time. PBY is a belly-scoop air tanker on contract with the Washington State DNR.

I hope to have some killer shots of the Chelan fire coming you way soon.

J.Foster, Highlands 26.

Nice action shots. I put them on AirTankers 6 photo page. Ab.

I found these pictures of PB4Y-2 Tanker 123 and thought you would like to add them to your other photos of Air Tankers and list them as In Memory of PB4Y-2 T-123 as you did with the C-130A T-130.

Jerry, an Air Tanker Buff.

Thanks Jerry. I put them on the bottom of AirTankers 5 photo page. Ab.

If you really want to get into it, you can go to our Links page under News and look at situation reports by Geographic Area (GACC). If you go on down to Weather, you can check NOAA Satellite images for infrared and smoke patterns. If you go to Geographic, you can check the GeoMac site for topography and fire perimeter. Sometimes you can luck into extra photos of large fires on the Incident Management Team websites. The list of Team sites are linked under Federal Pages on the Links page.

Just a few ideas for people lookin' and hopefully save answerin' a lot of e-mails. Ab.

COMMON DENOMINATORS OF FIRE BEHAVIOR ON TRAGEDY FIRES

Five common denominators that contribute to accidents/incidents have been identified through studies
of tragedy fires. It is important for firefighters to readily recognize the following common denominators so that future
tragedies can be prevented:

• Most incidents happen on smaller fires or on isolated portions of larger fires.
• Most fires are innocent in appearance before unexpected shifts in wind direction and/or speed results in flare-ups or extreme fire behavior. In some cases, tragedies occur in the mopup stage.
• Flare-ups generally occur in deceptively light fuels, such as grass and light brush.
• Fires run uphill surprisingly fast in chimneys, saddles, gullies, and on steep slopes.
• Some suppression tools, such as helicopters or airtankers, can adversely affect fire behavior.
The blasts of air from low-flying helicopters and airtankers have been known to cause flare-ups.

Ab,
Sorry I struck a nerve. In retrospect I see how it appears to be tossing rocks. I am sure lots of federal fire professionals have worked long and hard to provide the fire protection plan we now have. >From the outside looking in it still appears to be patched together and far less integrated than such a vital service should be. The efficiency of multiple bureaucracies attempting to coordinate with each other while each ones' bean counters attempt to shift "fire dollars" into non fire related programs as much as possible appears, from the outside, wasteful and dangerous. For Gods sake, most fedfire agencies don't even recognize experienced firefighters as professionals. It appears from the outside that a lot of thought has gone into a long series of mitigating programs rather than an integrated fire suppression effort. Having said that.. what exists now does pretty well with the resources they have. My main issue with the age thing is that there appears to be at least a "decade" of experience being wasted by the current age restrictions. If they are being recruited as ADs successfully and integrated into the fire management effort then that issue is moot. Regardless I don't advocate 50 year old FFs being "recruited" for permanent positions.

I think the "news agencies" including CBS have discovered that they get much more interesting stories if they look further than the "media handlers" provided by federal agencies in response to requests for interviews and information. The "pertinent information" they receive from those sources tends to be pretty "dry" and is often provided simultaneously to all the media. For better or worse as wildfire has become a "better story" they are going further and further beyond the "normal channels" for their stories. I think if you look closely you will see that they often feature some of the same issues discussed on this forum shortly after they are posted. Hmmm.

Fireronin

Keep safe and remember that a house is only a material thing.

Red Army Wife

"Meanwhile, in the Almanor Ranger District of the Lassen National Forest,
where Engine 11 was based, friends and colleagues of the trio killed made
plans to attend a memorial service for Self tonight.

The service will be held at 7 p.m. in the Westwood High School Gym, said
Rebeca Franco, a National Forest spokeswoman.

Thanks DG. Ab.

----------------------
any stats on the percentage of contract aircraft that have gone down this year? contract vs agency
owned/maintained/operated?

re Fireronin ronin is an ancient term Japanese for an outcast Samurai is this guy just a pot stirrer, an ex FF, or
some wannabe?

on a diff note: a 1st yr ground pounder is asking me for advice about how to avoid FLEAS in fire camp.......... sounds like a wonderful topic to introduce to They Said as a defuser, or maybe it would just open up a new can of worms. (*L* I read the info on my dog's monthly flea stuff, not for human use!)

Northzone5

Damian

www.nifc.gov/news/nicc.html at bottom. Ab.

Jack V

Sign on SanDiego News is reporting:

After dispatching a force of 450 firefighters by Monday night, the force was
augmented to nearly 1,400 on Tuesday. Firefighters attacked the fire this morning
with 85 engines, 11 helicopters, nine air tankers, six bulldozers, and 31 fire crews.

CDF Engineer

That one is up on the current FIRES 2002 list. Link at the top of theysaid. Ab.

M

Been working hard here of late and have'nt had time to check the postings, but I'll throw my hat into the ring on Inmate Crew usage. I have worked with inmate Crews in the State of Utah and I have to agree with BC Davis posting of 7/28. The "Fellas" as we called them were some of the best Type 2 Crews I've had the privilege to work with. Skilled in the Art of WF, in great shape to do the job, did'nt bitch and not one discipline problem. Perhaps some of the other postings were correct in their assessment as well, but speaking from experience, I agree with BC. I say "Right On" to the inmate crews out there and the personnel who are in charge of the Crews. Keep up the good work and hold your heads up high !!! Perhaps some of the "naysayers" lack the experience of working on fires with these Crews, but if you get the chance, talk to some of these guys and gals and you'll find out their human beings just like you and me." Paying their debt to society" ? I think so !!

Themac

Granted, we have deficits in staffing of STL and other mid- to upper- level supervisors. On a whole, our work force is somewhat less experienced. Ten years ago we could call on our captains whenever we needed division group supervisors. Now we're lucky if captains are STL trainees. It's the Bat Chiefs that are division group sup qualified.

If we changed the mea, would we pick up many more that are division group supervisor qualified? I wonder. Let me point out that even if people in current positions are not as qualified as in the past, the way the system is set up, they still work within their capabilities and redcard quals. If we're short sups, we pull crews off and let it burn.

As Ab said, we're doing our best to get folks trained both in the classroom and on the job. Many (in R5) who retire continue to serve the agencies as trainers and mentors and fill-in in other ways. It is my opinion that we do not need to change retirement or MEA rules, simply fight fire safely, continue to train and mentor those less experienced and let the experience level rise. It may or may not take 10 years. Experience depends on where you are, what's going on, who's sponsoring you and supporting you. Some people see more fire and gain leadership skills faster than others. (Some few never learn even with the classroom and OJT we're dishing out.)

In my opinion, it would be beneficial if there were a few more bucks in the budget to allow each of our upper level FMO type folks to have a "shadow" so that when they retire there is someone to step into their shoes. Don't know if that will happen, though.

Regarding this summer and shortages. I would venture to say that if we had the same staffing levels as in the late 70s or early 80s, we would still be short this summer. This summer fire is different, vegetation is different, climate is different. Fire season started early and with a vengeance. Already I see people stressed, stretched and tired and we still have 2 months to go. Yup, this would have been a marathon year regardless, even if staffing was at pre-RIF levels. Generally I feel that on the fires I've been on we're doing our best to put safety first.

NorCal Tom

Here's a report: www.abcnews.go.com Condolences. Ab.

As far as the media goes, if CBS news is really interested, they should contact the people that can answer their questions directly.

Ab.

Reading Cache Queen's comments as well as DW's, I have a few of my own. Removing just the "small brush, slash and understory" will help to keep fires from crowning when the ignition source is nearby but not from a rapidly moving fire front. 90 plus years of fire suppression has contributed to millions of acres of forested lands that are choked with vegetation, heavy down material and dead and dying stands. This is the reality of today. Debates may be conducted that seek to blame this or that for the situation we find ourselves in. However, we must deal with reality and not blame.

Removing only "small brush, slash and understory" does not go far enough to treat the problem. Thinning needs to include removal of larger understory trees than just those less than 10-12 inches dbh. Turn of the century photos portray open forests with little to no fuel ladders. Most small trees and brush were killed through frequent light intensity fires. 90 years of fire suppression has permitted numerous trees to grow into the mid to upper canopy levels. Today, we are faced with many forested areas that are dying from competition between trees, insect attacks and shading out. As these trees die, they create snags, a dangerous hazard to firefighters, and eventually increased down fuels. Research has shown that the past 100 years has been wetter than normal. It is being suggested that we are returning to a more normal, possibly below normal, rainfall pattern. Our forests are too densely stocked to support this over abundance of trees. Thinning is the most realistic method of reducing stocking while reducing fuel ladders and fuel loadings. This is not to suggest that thinning should remove the larger trees. Thinning should concentrate on removing the smaller trees sizes; but, were needed, some larger trees should also be removed until the desired stocking is reached.

Commercial thinning combined with precommercial thinning and down fuels cleanup would help to return forests to the more open conditions pictured in the late 1800s to early 1900s. It would reduce our reliance on imported timber, provide jobs, and reduce the cost of treatments. Lower treatment costs would permit more acres to be treated each year with the limited funds available. If any real headway is to be made in correcting this problem, commercial thinning (logging) needs to be an integral part of the mix.

As a long term R5 employee, I have prescribed, within numerous constraints, thousands of acres of this treatment method. Fuel ladders and down fuels were removed while the bigger trees were retained. It has been tested by fire and works. I sincerely hope that we are provided the opportunity to practice forestry that has been proven to work.

DAS

Another good page Thinning project shows how little damage was done by the fire in areas that were thinned. I wish we had the freedom to do this without so many roadblocks to the process. It makes sense.

I wish there were more websites for California fires. If anyone knows of other photos of how fire acted in thinned areas, please let me know. I saw the link that k or kelly provided.
DV

The R5 web is not quite up to par this fire season, but you could check the Wild Fires 2002 list which is up to date. Ab.

Nancy, we can't publish it because of copyright laws, but the thoughts are nice. Ab.

More details on the rollover
www.redding.com

News release of condolences regarding the loss of firefighters on the Lassen engine
Lassen National Park website. The file is in pdf, but is small. Memorial information
will be coming out of this website we have been told.

Good job, Abs. We appreciate your efforts at keeping the wildland fire community
appraised of what is happening.

Remain vigilant.
Original Firescribe

r-6 here. we got our buts kicked yesterday. evacs of 5,000 people and loss of two homes. more winds expected today

hope we can hold our own
r-6

NO firefighter clothing is meant to prevent injuries from "direct contact" with flame. Your injury is an example. Protective clothing is only meant to protect you from radiant heat and metabolic heat, and in cases of structural clothing, exposure to conductive heat through the fire atmosphere and through thermal barriers. Even ARFF proximity suits are just that....PROXIMITY SUITS.... protection from the radiant heat and not the actual flames.

Yes, you will counter....... but if I had a second layer?.... I wouldn't have gotten the burn.

Maybe if you were a little closer with that second layer... it may have gotten your airway singed and not just your arm. Thanks for us, you didn't.

I love your posts even though I don't always agree with you (actually, I agree with you alot of the time). It is nice to come here and just discuss the issues that affect all of us firefighters. Its great when we finally find the middle ground.

SoCalCapt

Please be safe out there my friends!!

Mellie, I await your arrival with bated (or baited) breath.

Firehorse

Here is something else to consider. Why did Sen. Daschle need to have legislation to eliminate these projects from NEPA when he had already cut a deal with the Sierra Club? Because other environmental groups would have tied up these project in appeals and litigation. If the compromise had been as good as everyone said it was it should be able to stand up to the NEPA process without undue delay. This just verifies that the process has become corrupted.

It is also enlightening to note that the Black Hills portion of the legislation was passed by slipping it into a unrelated bill, that Sen. Daschle did not want debate on the subject.

Here is the Sierra Club trying to back-pedal after getting caught with their pant down. www.sierraclub.org/logging/fires_july26.asp

Sen. Daschle's website is strangely silent on the subject. http://daschle.senate.gov/
6

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

The engine that rolled over was from the Lassen National Forest, based out of Chester.
Those who perished were
Steven Oustad, 51 of Westwood CA
Heather DePaolo, 29 of Redding
John Self, 19 of Susanville

The two who were injured and are at Mercy Medical in Redding are
Alex Glover, 19 of Susanville
Ryan Smith, 20 of Susanville

The unofficial prognosis for the survivors looks good. We will post memorial service info when it becomes available. It is unknown right now exactly what happened. The Fire News articles have some information from the PIOs.

Ab.

WOW!! that's about all I can say after the Tanker 123 crash and now the news this morning regarding one our own Engines going down in a rollover on the Klamath... It's never easy when you hear about people you know or had the pleasure of knowing... I have a few good trinkets from the crew of Tanker 123 and even have a few pics of the pilot with his Tanker.. I will send the pic once I get it scanned..

To those who died on the Engine this morning, My heart and Prayers go out to those on the other crews and to their families and children, etc... MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL and May God help those 2 others survive. Please keep us posted on when the services for those folks will be held...

To all of you out there involved in the firefighting whether red, green, white, etc it doesn't matter whether you fight from the ground, the air, up in the lookouts, or behind the consoles, you all have hearts and souls of Gold and you all are truly UNSUNG HEROES.. You never get the credit that all you deserve... I do hope that the tragedies that have occurred recently begin to dwindle down soon.. Is it me or has there been a lot of fatalities this fire season?

My condolences to the families, friends, coworkers, etc... of those who died this morning and to those who have died giving it their all and fighting the fight...

May you all Stay Safe and GOD BLESS,

C'More Illusions

My problem with inmate crews has nothing to do with cost, or with how well an inmate crew does/doesen't perform. Furthermore, I treat all humans I meet with respect until they prove otherwise. As for your treatment when in fire camp, how to you expect free people who you are taking assignments and jobs from to treat you? (You in general referring to the entire crew.)

My problem is this: I am a free citizen, I've invested the time and money to get trained and prepared myself for a job that I am waiting to be called on to perform. The fact that incarcerated individuals are out there right now performing that job angers me greatly. As meko9 said "aced out of work by criminals". I don't believe it could be said in a better way. Try this in most other professions and see what would happen! LOL! Why should it be any different with wildland fire? I truly can't understand why this is allowed to go on. Free citizens that contribute to society (again see mako9's posting) should, without a question, be given preference over incarcerated individuals. It's a moral question, and hits home especially hard when you are not working. They should do their time, in jail, until their debt to society is paid.

firewhirl

Forest management has been hamstrung from abuse of NEPA by preservationists and Daschle's bill is a backdoor acknowledgement of that. An unintended consequence of this is a backlash from the motorized recreational use organizations. One organization in my state has a bumper sticker which states "Wilderness, land of NO uses!"

Multiple use may be a hard pill to swallow for some, but that is what enabling legislation intended.

Right on Cache Queen!
6

I’d like to throw my 2 cents worth into the question you asked Cache Queen about what "Reasonable Logging" is. A couple of opening statements about my perspective for the sake of clarity and so you don’t over-do free speech with the "maybe" word to take a shot at my integrity. I’ve been in the wood products business for awhile ( I’m one of those guys that used to fight fire for USFS and wore jeans and a khaki shirt that SoCalCapt talked about) That said, I’m not speaking for forest products companies, just my own experience and observations as a life long resident of rural America, a wildland firefighter, and a logger of one sort or another over the years

I’m not sure what your historical research has been on these topics but both thinning and logging on the same operation was common at one time. At the same time it reduced much of the brush as fuel load as a normal part of the logging operation. This defrayed the cost of thinning, brushing and fuel load reduction to the USFS as they were generating revenue rather than spending tax payer money for the same end result. If you want to do your home work go back to the RARE 1 and RARE 2 reports (1970s I think), and the SNEP (Sierra Nevada Ecological Report), mid 1990s. When you study these works and what they advocate, and think about what was implemented, then consider the HEALTH OF OUR FORESTS today as compared to when we scraped tried and proven techniques of forest management for unknown ideas and lesser known agendas.

The Honorable Mouse

In that writeup, they find that 2/3 of the heat that firefighters are subjected to is metabolically generated, and only 1/3 comes from the fire. Their advice is that fire PPE should "let heat out, not keep heat out"! Most Aussies fight fire with a single layer jump suit, no gloves and sleeves rolled up.

The USFS-designed shirts and trousers are designed to allow air flow, which is critical for cooling; the Nomex material will give a fire fighter 20-30 seconds of protection from burns, enough time to get away from the heat source, or deploy a shelter. Another important body cooling factor is the head: ever hear the old saying that "if your feet are cold, put on a hat"?? Some studies show that 20-30% of heat loss occurs through the head. Cover it up, either with a knit hat, or with a face/neck shroud, and you reduce the amount of heat loss that can occur. Great in Winter, bad in fire season!

Structural firefighters go for complete body coverage, because of the needs of their job, but only have to work for a max of 20 minutes before their air supply runs out. Wildfire/Bushfire folks have to look at a much longer work period, with the cumulative heat stress effects mounting up over several days.

There are a growing number of reports of heat stress injuries and also a fatality among firefighters going with double-layers and full-time use of the face/neck shroud.

Looks like an area that needs some more study......?
Mollysboy

DG

I just spoke with the Information Officer on that fire who confirms that there was a single vehicle rollover at about 0200 and that 3 firefighters have died. Two more are injured and have been transported to the hospital. Condolences. I have great sadness at this news. The roads in northern California around Happy Camp are small with many treacherous curves. The terrain is very steep. Smoke is thick.

To all who are fighting fire, BE SAFE!

Ab.

is your only experience with inmate fire fighters just with cdf? i run a con crew with ndf and we do one hell of a job on fires. yes, the cost is less then a free crew but the tax payers are getting more for their money then you think.

i have been on free, type 2 crews for years. i would put the crews i have run the last 2 seasons against any free crew i have been on. why do i say this? my crew is disciplined, my crew is loyal, my crew is in excellent shape and trained to do the job. yes my crew is full of bad boys. but when you can take hard asses from prison and turn them into a effective fire tool then you really have something. their motivation is the attitude that they receive from folks like you. they want to prove to everyone that even though they screwed up in life, they can make a difference on a fire. i was at the martis fire outside of reno nv last year. it was my first major fire with ndf. i was totally disgusted on how we were looked upon. it was like we were the red headed step children. but ya know what? on the fire line, we did our job. we were effective, safe and had no injuries. we did just as much work ( if not more ) then other crews. we make a difference. we are around when the kids go back to school. we are around for floods, truck wrecks, or any other incident that occurs.

dont sell con crews short. when you run into one, at least try to give the crewboss some respect because he/she has a tough job. not dealing with his or her crew but dealing with the attitudes of others.

BC Davis

ps, ab i need glasses and am too stupid right now to get them so excuse the spelling

Get a grip! I'll visit next time already.

Mellie

Dear Editors:

Every year over 100,000 wildfires break out across the U.S., and this summer has seen the most destructive wildfires in Colorado and Arizona history, consuming acres by the hundreds of thousands.

But have you ever considered who the men and women that battle these fires are, what keeps them motivated against such formidable foes and why they respond to the Fire Call?

Log onto NationalGeographic.com’s Fire Call as Idaho wildland firefighter Norbert Schuster explains how beating back wildfires has impacted his life. Listen as he reveals why he continues to fight these life-threatening behemoths up to 14 hours a day, several months out of every year. Poignantly, the squad boss recounts one of the most harrowing days of his career.

For the entire full story, please visit: www.nationalgeographic.com/firecall.

Maxine Broderick
On Behalf of NationalGeographic.com

DW

A couple of other ideas to enhance the nostalgic nature of this post. For breakfast, make up a bunch of scrambled eggs, dye the eggs green and gray (not sure how to get that gray effect), put 'em in the fridge several hours, then remove and let stand in the sun in an area with plenty 'o flies prior to eating. Don't forget to make your lunch the day before and freeze it overnight. Remove early the next morning, put it in a plastic sack and tie it to your belt behind you, so's you have the opportunity to sit on it frequently before enjoying at lunch time. Ab.

I'm think'in I'd enjoy miss'in a few fires, rather than be behind bars 'n fences between times. Though I'm pleased to have missed fire whirl's experiences also. Ab.

Wow! Such bitterness! I never considered politics as being a factor. Though there might be
something to that, I strongly suspect that economics is a more likely reason. A 17-man or
woman Inmate-Firefighter Crew costs $17.00 per hour for the whole Crew, plus wages for
the Crew Captain and Corrections Personnel. Much cheaper than a a Crew staffed by free
people. What part of your agency's budget are you willing to cut in order to pay for the huge
increase in funds needed to provide the equivalent firefighting power with free staff, firewhirl?
And I am sure that "firewhirl" has absolutely no conception of the conditions these Inmate
Firefighters work under. Though it has its moments, few would describe their experience at
the end of the season as "enjoying the backcountry".

BTW - I haven't had a traffic ticket in nearly 10 years myself, and I have to do very nearly
the same damned difficult dirty and dangerous duty myself. Shoulda stayed in school. Maybe
it's not too late for you, firewhirl.

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

I must bow before one much wiser and astute in the ways of the political world than this lowly retired groundpounder. I am humbled in your presence, although be it in my computer. I feel I have brought shame to our friendship (even though you drove by my humble community on your vacation last year and did not grace me with an audience!) and I beg forgiveness. Because I am suffering such humiliation, I will report to the nearest ICP morning briefing, at which time I will, before national TV, throw myself upon my chrome-plated retirement pulaski. I beg your forgiveness Mellie and can only hope and pray that I have not cast an unpenetrable cloud over our relationship!

You have brought up some points that I had not considered. Well done as usual Mellie.

Your humble servant, footstool and fan,
Firehorse

6: From 18-34 was a ski bum (and still am!) and worked nights as a line cook, saute and grill work. Didn't get introduced to wildland fire till this year.

andy s, david g, jessica a : start sending applications out. check the jobs links here at wildlandfire.com. send out more applications. hope and pray. then send out more applications. make sure you're around your phone or pager. then send out more applications.

I understand we have lots of groundpounder rookie crew available, but there are two points that bother me as a trained and tested rookie who hasn't yet been called out:

1. See the posting below by IvansGirl on 7/23.

2. I'm sure it's been said before by many, but why the hell are there inmate crews on duty when a law abiding citizen like me who hasn't even had a traffic ticket in 10 years is working some crappy fill-in job? They screwed up, why should they enjoy our backcountry and fighting fire? Let's keep them in the can where they were sentenced to be, good behavior or not. I know that sounds harsh, but it's their problem. Ah politics.

Thanks all for the recent great postings.
firewhirl

P.S. It's logical: if the rookies don't get out there will continue to be a lack of experienced firefighters and leaders out there in the future.

RE: Daschle language.....things are heating up! Arizona is upset and which state will be next? Oregon, Montana, and oh my goodness....could California want their piece of the action too!

Politically someone had to take the first step in doing the right thing! The swirl of emotions, comments, bashing...etc is just part of the process that will take place over the next couple of weeks. Those (extreme environmentalist) who are apposed to proper management of forest and rangelands are in a frenzy to stop any additional states from joining in. Long term of this means "Jobs in the Woods".

If you ask the people of Deadwood SD how they feel right now, they would say that this should have been done a long time ago. They are now faced with the second part of fire and thats the potential of flooding. Their properties are even at greater risk now than ever before. The next couple of weeks should be interesting on the political front.

r3firetaz

Hey, I think Daschle did something, started something with his rider that
needed to get started.

I take it you're viewing his action as a way he could support his constituency
while sneaking out of having to deal with the issue. Maybe... Instead, I think
he couldn't see any action coming from the Congress going the usual routes,
and decided to put a "foot in the door" to crack the impasse. The fact that he's
the majority leader of the Senate makes his foot even larger. As far as party
goes, I can use the fact that he's a Democrat when I talk with environmentalists
(extreme and otherwise) who need to be educated. If a Republican had done
this, it wouldn't carry the potential for changing the minds of Democratic
environmentalists, in my estimation.

I guess I still wish change in this country could occur more reasonably and
gracefully with all people playing by the rules. The "pork" stuff pisses me off...
as well as fire money designated by congress for FIRE going to other FS
areas and exorbitant cost pools. Oh well. Politics.

Hug to you, my friend!
Mellie

Several with more details on the deployment:
www.bendbulletin.com
www.oregonlive.com/newsflash

Daschle perspective:
www.arizonarepublic.com

I am a New Zealand base Wildland Fire Fighter. Currently doing a study course on fire. investigation. I would welcome corresponding with other fire fighters in the field on any fire related subjects. I also would like to hear from HotShot teams. One of my hobbies is collecting Patches from different fire departments.

Our brigade is situated in central north island, Rangitikei Rural Fire Service - our crew (15) members Our district is quite large and we work with our sister station Kiotatia and urban brigade's Marton & Bulls. We train weekly throughout the summer from October to April and then fortnightly in the Winter April/October. During the winter months we have theory exams and NZQA qualifications adding to our Red card qualifications.

We have two engines, one turns into a Command Unit at and the other a four wheel drive Hilux.

Currently, it is winter in NZ, but as August nears, so does our Spring arrive. This year, our winter has not really been cold, more wet than anything. The heavy laden moisture content will be a great start to our fire season no doubt.

If anyone would like to correspond with me, it would be much appreciated

Kind regards
Dianne

I just stopped laughing my ass off for about an hour. I never was a wildlands FF, but your ryhme hit home because I used to be an Infantry squadleader. Thanks for the laugh, you brought back some good memories.

Riley

Think about this everyone! Here we have a Senate Majority Leader and a Democrat on charge to run a road block for appeals and litigation, basically giving way to to federal land managers in his state to conduct business in a reasonable and responsible fashion.

The last administration with Democrat VP Gore at the helm almost brought conservation to its knee's. Lets look at this, conservation = wise use of resource (a republican stand point) and preservation = no use of resources (historically a democratic veiw point). The last administration created many new monuments with the end goal of preservation in mind.

Forest and rangeland health depends on conservation practices to prevent large dangerous wildfires. This language is going to the president for signature. This clears the way for South Dakota. The balance of the remaining states can then worked out in the near future! Someone should send Daschle a thankyou for setting the stage and tackling this issue.

r3firetaz

I strongly encourage each of you reading this website to bring up and read the article mentioned in a 7/24 post from CI concerning Senator Tom Daschle. I hope it will piss off each of you as much as it did me. To think that this man, who is the majority leader of the Senate, would try to slide thru a rider hidden in a defense bill that exempts his home state from any and all environmental challenges to logging on federal lands is a travesty. In my opinion it is a slap in the face to every person in the remaining 49 states, every wildland firefighter that has to face down the "Dragon", and every homeowner that has lost or had a home threatened.

I hope it makes you angry enough that you will take the time to fire off a message to Daschle and your own politicians in the House and Senate. If this had been a republican (No, I am not a Republican) you can bet Daschle and his cronies would have been all over this one like stink on a turd!

Read the posting and get angry enough to fire off those e-mails folks and send the article to your local newspapers and television stations.

Firehorse

so they are activating the military! ah, that takes me back to 2000...when i was sentenced to be an mcad (military crew advisor) 30 days later, and after wasting a perfectly good fire season, a few of us mcads came up with some stuff to make us laugh about our situation. ala. jeff foxworthy, we called it ...you just might be an mcad.

...YOU JUST MIGHT BE AN MCAD.
1. If your crew digs only 5 chains of practice line, and 0 chains of fire line, you just might be an mcad.
2. If you breathe more 2nd hand cig smoke than fire smoke, you just...
3. If you never hear the word "superior" after the word "mother" you just...
4. If your crew refers to their tool, pack and the hill as bitch, you just...
5. If your crew refers to push-ups, scissor kicks and front leaning rest as "gettin' smoked" you just...
6. If your SFC maxes out the 300 lb scale at helibase, you just...
7. If your same SFC uses his inhaler 12 times while ascending "casualty hill", you just...
8. If at every sit-down break a "spades" game breaks out, you just...
9. If you are referred to as "sir" the first two weeks of your assignment, you just...
10. If one of your crew members get severely beaten on his birthday, you just...
11. If the only smokes on your division are Marlborough, you just...
12. If your shift, minus briefing and travel is only 3 hrs, you just...
13. If your crew cold trails with their lips and nose, you just...
14. If your crew asks for a smoke break "in order to inflate their lungs" be for climbing a big hill, you just...
15. If you deploy 0 ft of hose, but pull and butterfly 10,000 ft, you just...
16. If your crew championship wrestles deep into the night at spike camp, you just...
17. If the same ff that had to get jungle penetrator sling medivaced is in the chow line before you, you just...
18. If you plumb a mile of hose in the same division you pull hose from the week before, you just...
19. If your IAP instructs you to patrol and mop up 18 days in a row, you just...
20. If your crew can perfectly impersonate, Eddie Murphy, Michael Jackson, and all rappers, you just...
21. If one of your crew members loses his bad feet profile because he was hip-hoppin' to karokee during R&R, you just...
22. If one of your crew members suffers dt's from a lack of "church's fried chicken" you just...
23. If the highlight of the day is learning how to play dominos, you just...
24. If the only bars your crew sees are "water", you just...

all in fun, but i did make lots of money. everyone should try it once!
JR

Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462 and Series 0455 Pages are updated. No new jobs on the Jobs Page.

CAFSman

www.thedailycamera.com

Ancient sequoias threatened by fire -- Blaze in southern Sierra out of control

Firescribe

More articles on the FireNews page. The ones that Firescribe contributes usually do not show up on that page. If you haven't visited that page, it takes about 20 seconds for Moreover to search the net on our keywords each time the page loads. Ab.

The whole article can be read here:

Daschle seeks environmental exemption for his state

CI

Brutus,
God protect me from those who feel they need to protect me from myself.

That would be my "stupid" idea you are talking about. We are not talking about "wannabes" with no experience or ability to think for themselves . These are mature adults with a minimum required number of seasons experience and a needed skill. By age 37 no one should need "big brother" protecting you from yourself.

Tony,
I agree that we don't need a "geriatric" workforce. We also don't need a workforce composed of "young" folks just working to get enough experience to find a better job elsewhere. We need a workforce composed of "young vigorous" firefighters who are paid well enough to stick with the job till they get old and "old experienced" firefighters who know that more fires are extinguished by folks using their heads than folks using their backs. Right now we are having trouble attracting (and hanging on to) enough of the first group to even replace the folks in the second that are retiring. And the firefighting force needs to grow substantially in the next decade.

Similarly there is the safety issue of having enough experienced folks on the line to say "time to run for the black" so we have fewer inexperienced firefighters saying "OH S**T...TIME TO POP MY SHELTER".

Considering that wildfire is projected to continue to be a growing problem for the foreseeable future we need a counter force that is growing proportionately. That is not the case currently. In fact many of the available "young and vigorous" cannot be put on the line due to the current shortage of overhead (read as: "old and experienced"). This bottleneck not only cripples the country's ability to suppress wildfires SAFELY, it affects the yearly income of "young and vigorous" firefighters. This is not a case of "if the old guys work the young will not"...it is more like "if there are not enough old guys available, the young sit on the sidelines and watch" collecting dust rather than paychecks.

Dana

Australian firefighters to help battle US wildfires
23 July, 2002

A senior firefighter from State Forests of NSW will today fly to the USA to determine how Australian firefighters can help to battle forest wildfires sweeping across 12 western American states, the NSW Minister for Forestry, Kim Yeadon, today said.

"For the second time in three years western USA is in the grip of major wildfire emergency and American fire authorities are asking Australia and New Zealand for help," Mr Yeadon said.

"Already, almost 1.5 million hectares of land across a dozen states has been ravaged by wildfire and local firefighters are currently battling more than 50 major fires.

"At this stage in the US fire season the total area of forest burnt is well up on the same time in the 2000 fire emergency which was regarded then as the worst in the USA for fifty years.

"Across much of the western USA the combination of drought conditions, expected hot, dry weather and high forest fuel loads make most forested areas vulnerable to rapid fire growth and extreme fire behaviour.

"In response to a request for assistance through Australia's National Forest Fire Management Group, State Forests fire manager, Mr Paul de Mar, is now on his way to the US National Interagency Fire Centre in Boise, Idaho.

"He will be working with US fire authorities to determine how Australia can most effectively contribute to the fire fighting effort and relieve exhausted local firefighters.

"We expect this will again involve sending a contingent of specialist Australian and New Zealand fire fighters including aircraft managers, incident controllers and field commanders with extensive experience in managing large, complex forest fires."

Mr Yeadon said that during the last major US wildfire emergency in 2000 Paul de Mar was one of nine expert firefighters sent to the USA from State Forests and the NSW Rural Fire Service. He was also team leader of the 96 member Australian fire fighting contingent.

"This time he will be the Australian liaison officer on the US National Multi-agency Command Group and will oversee the induction and deployment of the Australian firefighters when they arrive in the USA," Mr Yeadon said.

Daily Telegraph and SMH have news release also.

Cheers,
SteveB

I'm new to your site - my IC just turned me on to it last week. Very impressive, and thanks for doing it. I got the August National Geographic with an article about Russian smokejumpers today. I was not aware that they were the first to use smokejumpers. Here's a couple of quotes from the article that people might be interested in:

"Last year Avialesookhrana celebrated the 70th anniversary of its first flight. (It would have been the 75th anniversary, but when the first plane took off from Leningrad in 1926 to look for fires, the pilot made a beeline for Estonia and defected.)"

"After quickly turning a sapling into a shovel handle, one firefighter attacks with sand while another beats the flame with birch branches. If smoke jumpers kill a fire quickly, it adds a bonus to their monthly hundred dollar pay."

"Jumping is the thrill that gets them hooked. 'Two minutes fly like eagle, three days dig like mole,' Valeriy says of the smokejumper's life."

"Where there's a fire, there's a smoke. Asked whether he would rather run out of food or tobacco, one smokejumper says, 'You can catch fish in the river, but cigarettes?'"

There's more at nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0208.
Thanks again.
MT-PSC

Ivans girl:
See my posting from 7-21. It's a two to one work rest ratio not just 16 hours of work to 8 rest. Also I believe there are still provisions to have 2 days off in 21 days. Supervisors should manage this. If there crew returns from a 14 day assignment there supervisor may give them two or three days off on R and R if he feels they need it. Most places are dam* strict on this after last years events in Washington because FMOs and Fire staffs will be held accountable.
rotor-head

been a while since i have posted on here. i believe that we fire fighters are the most well trained fire fighters in the world. we are well funded ( on a whole ) good equipment, and believe it or not, paid better then most countries. and in spite of all of this we still kill fire fighters. i believe that i am well trained. i try to do my damnest to stay as safe as i can. but i also realize that i have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. no matter how much we train, no matter how good the equipment is, no matter how good the personnel are around us, things happen.

we push ourselves for the greater good. its our nature. we enjoy the job we do. yes, there are some cases where things can be avoided and we try hard to avoid them. but things still happen to us. all we can do is our best. nothing more, nothing less. we can point the fingers at contract companies, complain that we work too long of hours. bad tactics and everything else we point the finger at. but when a tree falls on a brother or sister fire fighter, who do we blame?

instead of looking for blame for all the deaths that have happened in the fire world, lets look a little bit closer at how we fight fire. we follow lces, 10 and 18 and everything else. we need to continue to do that but lets stop pointing the finger and look a little closer at ourselves.

BC Davis

i lost 3 friends to fire this month and no one pointed the finger. it was refreshing to know that they died doing the same thing everyone else would do.

With all of the brainpower and creativeness of the "They Said" group, I'm sure I'll get some great resources.

Some precip here in the Hayman territory, but the weather is calling for more hotter and drier weather this week.

Keep your heads up, your eyes open, and your radio scanning.

Prevention Buff - alo

Fire Threatens Southern California Sequoias

I am curious about the BLM's policies regarding ample R&R for our exhausted and over-worked "Forestry Technicians." (Also amazed that by calling them seasonal "Forestry Technicians" the gov. can avoid providing many much needed benefits.) I keep reading about all of these fire fighters that are anxious to get out and fight fire, that are waiting for a call, and it seems that some that I know out on the line are not getting their required day(s) off.

I was under the impression that while in the lower 48, the policy is 14 days on to one day off, 16 hrs of work to 8 hours rest. I am also told that travel time is not considered time off, as the rest in the back of a van or waiting for a plane is not restful at all. Is this correct? And if so, than why has this been thrown out the window for some Type I crews this horrendous season. I am aware of one crew in particular that may have been worked over 40 days without a proper day of rest.

In a time when we are made painfully aware of safety concerns, and the loss of some of our beloved and courageous fire fighters, is the safety concern of fatigue being ignored?

Three weeks of exhaustion, let alone nearly 5 or 6 weeks, I'm sure has adverse affects on judgment, not to mention risk of injury when bodies far surpass their physical limits.

This frightens me. I worry that those higher up are risking the lives of our loved ones.
Please, what are the policies regarding rest, and are they truly enforced?

IvansGirl

Point taken. I well know what those positions are, as I've had plenty of time to study and restudy the Fireline Handbook while waiting to be called- and I did score 100% on my tests. Please don't hold my newbie status against me, even you were on your first fire one time. Seems like everyone who posts here has a million-odd years of experience or is family of someone who does. The object of my postings to "They Said" is only to represent the view of a newbie which you must know contains a certain amount of frustration. I only want to occassionally remind the experienced and overhead people that we are out here, and that everyone was where we are now at one time, and hopefully provide a few laughs too. Plainly there is a shortage of experienced overhead, for a myriad of reasons. But don't forget that the newbies will one day (we hope) become the experienced overhead that we are sorely missing.

firewhirl

'Smokey Bear' Voice Gene Moss Dies at 75

Thank you for all of your kind thoughts and prayers. We continue to pray for the men still on the job.

Sincerely,
SL

Thanks for the info SL and condolences on your loss. He was a good man. Could we get more details on the ways to donate? Ab.

Aerial firefighting ,whether using fixed wing or rotary, is a very expensive and dangerous endeavor. The cost of insuring pilots who fly these missions is also very expensive...but no more so than everything else involved. The decision to not insure their pilots is a simple strategic business move to encourage any potential plaintiff (and their attorneys) to settle out of court. None of this is new info to pilots. They (unlike new groundpounder recruits) know the inherent danger of what they are doing. They "choose" to accept the fact that if they are killed doing their job their families may be screwed. I know this sounds harsh...harsher than I want it to. I grieve for those firefighters killed whether they fight on the ground or from the air. But pilots can mot simply take a few safty courses and be put "on the line". Before you can get the opporunity to pilot an airtanker you have years of experience and ample opportunity to know what you are getting into.

I am a pilot, but not a commercial pilot. You could not pay me enough to fly a plane I did not trust completely. This is an attitude shared by nearly every other pilot. We check out our craft prior to each first flight of the day as thoroughly as we can but we still have to trust our employers to provide aircraft that are not inherently defective. Very good records must be kept on the inspections and maintenance of all aircraft...more so for any commercial aircraft such as airtankers. The FAA and NTSB will go over these records with a fine tooth comb during the mandatory investigation of aircraft crashes. If these records show that the employer cut corners they are going to have a very difficult time staying in business. They can expect some heavy consequences from the FAA. They can expect wrongful death lawsuits. They can expect to find it more difficult to get pilots to climb into their aircraft. There is much more unanimity among pilots than groundpounders...it is a smaller group. Bad contractors can't find good pilots. I wish it were the same for those who fight fire on the dirt.

I agree that we need an airframe designed specifically for the mission. Canada has done that...why can't we? I don't see why the Feds can't have their own fleet as well. Several states have done that. There exist several solutions to the problem...but I think as long as the govt. can find contractors who can find pilots willing to risk their lives flying antique aircraft cobbled together with antique parts doing a mission they were never designed to do nothing will change. In the end pilots are in control of the situation. And the more of their colleagues that perish the more in control they are. Eventually the military may have to take over fixed wing air support for wildfire suppression. Of course the cost will at least triple then.

Maybe this another good reason our country should have a single wildfire suppression agency.

Dana

Ralph, The wildland fire teams that were at the WTC are all off fighting fires right now. Perhaps someone of them took a pic of that. If there are any others reading who have such a picture, would you please let Ralph know? Sounds like a good one to post on our WTC photo page, too, if someone were to send in such a picture. Here's to the wolves! Ab.

www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us = nope.
www.r5.fs.fed.us = and nope.

k
--------------------------

here's another:
Tahoe Terrie,
I get error messages on all the links at some time or other. I only check once every few days now. Used to be R5 had the best sit report information that could be had on the web. It has been gone-to-hell for months now. Are there a bunch of incompetents running the shop there?

Isn't there someone who can figure out what kind of change was made that screwed things up? Sometimes it works in the morning and that evening it doesn't or vice versa or not at all. More frustrating than getting a 404 message is this sometime-on-and-sometimes-off situation. What a cluster.

Tired of checking the R5 web, screw it!

USFA ADMINSTRATOR MAKES A CALL FOR NWCG RED CARD PERSONNEL

The United States Fire Administration (USFA) in response to a request from the National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group (NMAC), announced today a call for assistance in mobilizing wildland certified (NWCG Red Card) structural firefighters from fire departments across the United States, with specific skills as Strike Team Leaders, Division Group Supervisors and Aviation trained personnel.

“Due to almost record wildland fire activity, we are calling upon the fire service for all firefighters with certification in wildland firefighting and these skills, who are available for a 14 day mobilization,” said USFA Administrator R. David Paulison. “Those firefighters who are certified should contact, with their department’s approval, the nearest Geographic Area Coordination Center.”

If your state has an existing notification and response procedure (e.g. California), fire service personnel should comply with those protocols. Fire personnel in states without notification protocols should contact the Geographic Area Coordination Center nearest you. (List Attached)

As of this morning, 3,578,774 acres have burned. Over 1405 structures have been lost, and evacuations are still a reality for many people. Resources for wildland fires are depleted, and there is still officially 2 months remaining in the 2002 wildland fire season.

The Geographic Area Coordination Center (GADC) are listed for you. The USFA has been asked to assist the NMAC. For specific answers to your questions resulting from this request, you should contact the GADC nearest you.

Click GACCs INFO for snail-mail addresses, phone numbers, and e-mail addys. Ab.

news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=45570

More FROM Firescribe and Red Army Wife:
www.mailtribune.com/archive/2002/0723/local/stories/02local.htm

Tahoe Terrie

"The most fun and challenging experiences I have had are with the USFS." Right on Bro, I will back you up on that one. Wildland Firefighting is about as good as it gets. Only problem I had with it was the lack of support from the govt. and the managers that were too afraid to surround themselves with the quality firefighters.

"I don't think any firefighter is in the JOB for the money or the benefits.... " Yes and no. I did it because I loved the job. If I was single and didn't have a family to support you bet I would still be on the line. The problems that I ran into was I would spent 6 to 8 months a year away from my family "doing my job" and they would be left to tow the line. I knew it was time to leave when my Daughter called the guard station, that I was the station manager of, my house. By the time she 36 months old, I was gone for at least 20 0f them. In the end family comes first. Money and benefits are what it takes to make these days. If the pay equaled the amount of effort and sacrifice that Wildland Firefighters make every season then I think more people would stay in for the long haul.

I miss the time out with the overhead team that I was on. I miss the satisfaction of working with the crews and being a part of a team. But getting to know my Daughter overshadows anything I did on fires. She could care less that I spent most of my time in a helicopter or making plans for some division on a fire that is making national news. She only knows that her Dad now has the time to color and play barbie's with her 4 days a week, every week. For me that made leaving my dream job easy.

pgc

since i'm a complete maniac skier, i should have done this years ago. *sigh*

(34 now.....37 years? i better work my *ss off for the next three seasons for that permanent position!)

maybe some of you old fire dogs would enjoy some naive observations from someone who is putting maximum effort into getting into the life. i've certainly been enjoying every posting to "They Said" for the last 4 months, so let me say thanks to all and especially to Ab (all the Abs that is!)

-many "newbies" are probably in the same situation i am. wondering, during one of the biggest seasons in history, why they aren't in the field yet. done the training (I-100, S-130, S-190, twice!) and pack tested. sending out 1 application every day, it's been at least 20 apps now, and at least 80 emails. one reply so far: a postcard from the BLM in CA saying my application is being considered, that makes me :) at least i know someone's looking at it! i am on call for Grayback Forestry crew out of Missoula, MT, and am thankful that they have resumed operations after the horrible tragedy they suffered involving the van rollover en route to the Hayman Fire. i want to work for them and give my 110%, i was very impressed with their instructor, Rod Goss, he had a lot of good advice and had a knack for emphasizing safety issues so that you would remember them.

-which brings me to a "sore point" that maybe others have experienced: admitting that i started late, taking a private class from Blackbull Wildfire Services in April of this year from Richard Mangan (also an excellent instuctor who imparted some great advice and gave an excellent view on working for the USFS), i have had serious difficulty obtaining employment. i "freaked out" after Grayback Forestry announced they weren't sending out any crews, and called them to request my certification so that i could apply as a "qualified wildland firefighter" for available positions around the country. a receptionist told me she would mail me a document certifying that i had completed training and taken the pack test (arduous level)....this never happened. as the experienced people know, training and preparing yourself for a job like this is a serious undertaking, if you're at all serious about it, especially if you haven't done it in the past. in fact, just getting someone to give you the pack test (if you are not yet employed) is a major task anymore. after training without pay and preparing for and taking the pack test, i couldn't belive that i couldn't get a simple certification that i had done so. that's a rough one.

-i'm really into WWII history, when i first came to Missoula 6 years ago, i couldn't believe that the retardant bombers that fly out of here are actually B-26 Marauders! enough on that subject considering recent events.

-well, how wild can things get? the U.S. is drier than it has been in a while, and words are flying concerning how everything has been managed over the last century.

-one interesting point that no one seems to bring up except on the down-low, because maybe they're afraid of it: if you want a federal firefighting job you'll have to surrender your bodily fluids to a lab whose accuracy on your drug test is extremely questionable. and everyone is wondering where the experienced people have gone, LOL! seriously now: even in my limited experience with people who fight wildland fires, this is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

-unfortunately the world situation isn't conducive to peace and it's gonna take some serious money to reassure the American people that a nuclear, chemical or biological weapon isn't going to be detonated in their backyard....so even though it's a big, big year, wildfire is taking the backseat. many postings have discussed funds for fighting wildfires and especially benefits for wildland firefighters, but let's face it folks: the public only wants to spend money when the flames are scorching their homes and they're screaming "how could this happen here!?" we've all seen it, i've personally seen it, and even recently read it right on this page, so accept it. it's typical, but what's to be done? people want to live in the mountains, and many of them are too lazy to make their homes safer for wildland firefighers to defend.

-direct effect of the above situation: all you hear is "we don't have the resources", "we're short on resources", "it's the biggest fire in the state's history" on the news. meanwhile people are carrying their pagers who are trained, equipped and ready with their packs sitting by the door..... for a couple of months. go figure.

bitching? maybe. ready to fight fire? certainly. looking to stimulate some minds? without a doubt.

firewhirl

Here is a very interesting letter to the editor of the local daily newspaper in Staunton, Va, which serves the area of the Augusta IHC's (USFS) home district. The paper is the The News Leader and can be found at www.newsleader.com This letter to the editor was printed in the Sunday, July 21, 2002 edition. I wanted to send you a link to the online version, but it has already been taken offline. This is the body of the letter, used with permission:

Firefighter's Time Could Be Better Used

As a taxpayer, I would like for someone to explain to me why the Augusta Hotshots are put on unemployment status for two straight months in the summer when forest fires are at their worst? The government had to spend money to get firefighters from other states sent here to our area to work our local fires at a great deal of cost, considering airfare, food, lodging, etc. This makes no sense, considering that Virginia's own firefighting team is laid off.

I realize the employees must surely need a rest, but two months seems a bit excessive. If they need more time off, why not take it in the winter, when there are no fires anywhere in the country? I have heard many reports of how the firefighters in the western region were so overworked from the enormous fires and had to turn to the military for relief. One would think that the Forest Service could manage their highly trained and valued firefighter's time more effectively by using them when they are needed the most and where they are needed the most. I hope after what we have seen in the past few months that the Forest Service will rethink how they use their resources - and most importantly our tax dollars. This is akin to ordinary citizens flying across country to buy groceries.

If we ran our homes the way our federal government spends money, we would all be bankrupt. A little common sense could really go a long way.

Evelyn W
Lovingston, Va

Used with the permission of the Staunton News Leader, Copyright 2002.

The Augusta Hotshots formed in June of 2001 and work a split 18 and 8 schedule. The 18 pay periods are roughly split into a 8 pay period spring season and a 10 period fall season. This is done to allow the Augusta Shots to service the 2 Eastern fire seasons usually running from early February to early May and from early/mid-October to late November. During June & July the crew is laid off, including the permanent 18 & 8 employees (all but 2 or 3 positions on the 20 person crew). The crew is laid off again in December and January. Most of the overhead remain on for the majority of each layoff period.

During the layoff period this summer, the immediate area in and around the Augusta IHC home district experienced many fires including several large fires in Shenandoah National Park. Crews from across the nation were brought in to this area of Virginia, as the Hayman fire burned in Colorado.

On_Fire

Why doesn't somebody find out the cost of a new C-130 and add 25% to that
cost for the modifications necessary to make it into an air tanker and then
multiply that times 50 to get the cost of a new airtanker fleet? That would
probably make it fairly clear why we fly old airplanes. Second, did you
ever notice that the military loses airplanes on a rather regular basis in
spite of "superior" maintenance? In fact, it might be interesting to ask how
many C5's and C130 aircraft the military has lost in the last 10 years. I
think we have lost 2 in Afghanistan. How many helicopters? Intelligent
questions might provide superior insights to shots fired in the heat of
passion.

exFS

We are being pounded by lightning and everyone needs to be careful in the coming days.
Red Army Wife

Mellie

PS to BLM Bob: You're right on most of those fires not being "indirect attack". I was thinking "direct" and then everything else. Guess I was equating unburned green between the firefighter and the fire with "working indirect". I can see that was a gross generalization on my part: although going indirect involves having unburned fuels between you and the fire, so do many other scenarios. (Thanks to the other new guy who wrote in to clarify that tactics do not vary by agency... I hoped that was not the case.)

PS to JW. Do you know where I can find the info on the Rattlesnake Fire? Point me in the right direction and I'd appreciate it. (Bet Ab would cut it and paste and pass it on.) BTW, good comments on the aerial firefighting program. Having good info is what this site is all about.

Pulaski is also looking for info on the Rattlesnake. Ab.

Remember that those interested and needing a job can go to the Classifieds Page and list themselves with the Fire Jobs Connection under employment. Then employers can go and see who is available. In coming days, carded firefighters will be needed. Ab.

As someone who works alot with contractors here is what I have to say,

wake up things have changed and there wont ever be the good ol boy days of yesteryear when we actually had to get things acomplished again. Everyone in procurement knows that it takes the FS almost twice as long to do anything nowadays in this warm fuzzy circus as it used to and it is not do to number of employees it is lack of motivation and motivators. Most of these people have since retired or bailed out, now we're slapping crews together with trained but not very experienced personell and promoting people that shouldn't even be in fire. I feel the frustration from some of the older guys but I have always been told to find a way to win. I have been told more than once that contractors are here to stay and that it would be better to help rid ourselves of bad contractors by holding them accountable to their contract, aviation or whatever. All the good contractors I know take good care of their permanents and pay the FF's more than we do. I know there is not near the problem in R-5 as there is in R-6 with contractual accountability, (I know that'll p-off some but it's true, been there done that, left confused.)

It would be alot better for us to get behind the good contractors, not be afraid to rid ourselves of firechasers or slackers and work this new deal to the benefit of all. You sound by your isolationist attitude about fire you would be better suited with CDF. Dont forget, Each one of those inmates cost 50-60k a year, doesnt sound too cheap to me. I know by the way I sound I should work for a contractor and believe me, if the knees could, maybe I would. But I know this will work, fill our holes with good, able contractors, hold there feet to the fire and get sh*t done again.

floko

Ab.

As a U.S. Forest Service official briefed homeowners about a wildfire threatening hundreds of homes, a woman yelled from the bleachers:

"Don't tell me not to build a home in the mountains! I don't want to hear that."

I am trying to find someone to tell me what I need to do to become a STPS. I work for the State of Montana's DNRC as a Engine Boss, as a ITC4, I think that I have most of what I need to Qualify. I have 28 years as a structural fire fighter, with 30 + college credits that will cover a lot of the requirements. If you could steer me in the right direction I would be very thankful. I like your web site.

JL

Let me state it very clear: A Firefighter is a Firefighter, be it the US Forest Service or Acme Private Wildfire Control. You die in the line of duty, then your family should be adequately compensated by the employer. Structural Firefighters in government service receive around $100,000 or more in death benefits through various programs government and private foundation wise. Wildland firefighters get lesser awards because they are "Forestry/Range Technicians" and get very little in compensation if they die in the line of duty in comparison.

I believe that the Government should not have to foot the bill for a private contractor's death, but they could pass legislation to mandate the contractor to provide a reasonable death benefit insurance package similar to what a government firefighter would get. The only problem is the contractor will have an impossible time finding an insurance career who would provide such a policy, and if he did find one I'm sure the premiums would be outrageously high.

I hate the fact that CDF and other government firefighting agencies have contractors piloting their aircraft and not government employees. I can go and talk to these pilots and say "Hey, dude. Don't work for CDF as a pilot because you don't get any benefits and no permanent employment." His reply will be "I have to support myself and my family, and piloting jobs are hard to come by that pay well". They could find a way to make it happen if they wanted to, but if the government were given half the chance, they would contract everything out if it "looked" like they could save money. If the states and locals would accept military service time toward state employee retirement maybe we would have a dedicated pilot program.

Between you and me and the rest of the world, I never have liked the idea of contracting out anything that is Fire Related other than non-hazardous support function such as caterers, shower units, etc. . Contracting out is the way the government gets out of having more permanent employees with benefits. The reality is the contractor's workers get paid a modest salary with little or no benefits, but the contractor reaps the rewards. You have the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer. The government spends almost as much or more money on a privatized contract as if they did the jobs with government workers. For the cost/benefit of the worker it would be better to have government employees.

I know people who work for several contractors now because they couldn't get a permanent appointment with an agency, they got sick of the Agency B.S., they retired but were still able to stay in the game, etc. . These people work hard for what they get and many of them work as hard as a government firefighter. They do this because they love it, but given half a chance they would go to work for the government.

How many people do you know around the country right now who have been out of work for many months would be happy to get a just-above minimum wage job? I'm not putting down contractors because many of them provide a great service, some better than the government could provide short of providing these same services with prison workers who don't have to be paid. Did you know there was once an idea floating around in the early 1990's that CDF would replace all the paid seasonal firefighters on the engines and helicopters with inmate firefighters because it would be "cheaper"? Thankfully, someone came to their senses.

I once worked on the Plumas NF as a firefighter and saw an old fire staffing plan dating back to the 1970s for one of the PNF's 6 ranger districts. It showed each district with four or five stations, five engines, a 10-man handcrew, a helicopter, a dedicated dozer, a water tender, and the Forest's Shot Crew. Today, the entire Plumas NF Fire Resources has just a little more than that for the whole forest. The government has never replaced the levels of staffing or equipment we had back in the 1970's or even the 1980's. It is because of our government's "costcuting" that contractors have to be called.

My comment on "it lessens all of us when the comparisons (private vs. government) and the Monday Morning quarterbacking comments start from the Peanut Gallery" was referring to those airtanker crashes and the rumors and stories being flown by the media of substandard maintenance with nothing substantiated, and the comments by the firefighting industry based on what they saw by picture and video tape. It was also in referral to the comparisons being made by the media of contract pilots not being government firefighting personnel.

As to the Air Tanker issue: Yes, we need to use NEW Airframes Designed for firefighting.

What is the cost to re-outfit the nation's wildland airtanker fleet with newer aircraft?: Less money than the government on a B-1B and B-2 Bomber (That's about 1.3 Billion Dollars) or half of what what the military spends in one day.

Will we see brand new airtankers?: Not as long as the government continues to surplus out it older aircraft out of the boneyards of Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ for airtanker use (and believe me, if you have been there you would know that won't happen for a good 30 years with all the spare aircraft and parts they have down there. The contractor will keep pumping the surplus aircraft until there are none left to be had, and then they will tell the government "Sorry, were getting out of the firefighting business because its not cost efficient."

This whole thing started with one question that I want somebody to answer for my own knowledge:

When an airtanker contractor has two or more incidents in the same fire season, with similar causes (such as the wings breaking away), will NIFC or the Fire & Aviation Management Office suspend that company's operations and have all their firefighting aircraft grounded and inspected before resuming operation? This is for any Fixed Wing or Rotary Firefighting Aircraft contractor, not to single out H&P. So for instance, if <snip> AirCrane or <snip> Helicopters has two incidents in a row with the tail rotor falling off would they suspend that contractor until all their aircraft are inspected?

How about someone answering this question so we can put it to rest.

To An-R5er, contact AB and he can give you my email address.

MOC4546

Thanks for the clarification, MOC. Ab.

Fernando, I'm posting your e-mail so firefighters reading this site will know of your project. Perhaps there will be someone who will have suggestions for you. Organizing world-wide events is a daunting prospect, but more and more possible with help from the internet. Putting out the word is a good beginning. Any suggestions, Readers? We'll put you in touch with Fernando. Ab.

I think that we are in agreement. I was fortunate in that I got my career appointment in 1989 and the vast majority of my seasonal time can be counted for 6C retirement. I don't understand how seasonal time spent "in harms way" should not be counted in a career. And I don't think that people should be forced to "buy back" seasonal time, when the Government got that time at a heck of a deal compared to FERS cost to government. It would probably take an act of Congress, but that might be a cause worth taking up. (How many members of Congress would want to be on the record of voting against the "Wildland Firefighter Retirement Bill"?

6

You brought some great points to light in your post. I just want to add my 2 cents too your thoughts and lay down some of my own.

The park service will try to form their own structure program because they don't fall under the DOD's umbrella. They could follow the course work (which follows the IFSTA manual) but they wouldn't be able to certify under the DOD. I can't speak for the Park Service but I would think that they could go through their local state fire academy to get their certs. (that is if the govt. will pay for the training)

In regards to the DOD's fire program: "I don't really see the Military as an answer either. Military Fire Departments are primarily staffed with civilian employees because the military personnel are not around long enough to gain the skills needed to do the job well (they get activated, transferred elsewhere or move on to civilian careers)." Although we are civilians now, 90% of our staff (at our station, and yes we are DOD) are ex military or federal firefighters that have transferred from other agencies. (BLM, FS, NPS)

Why would people want to transfer? How about a pay raise? My base salary is now $48,106.24 and that's before any overtime. I would've kept my GS-6 spot (26,000 a year) with my former employer if there was any incentive to stay. I put in 10 years with them and had a blast. But a glass eye in a goats a$$ can see that Wildland Firefighters don't get the support they need and deserve.

We have 48 years of combined Wildland experience between the five ex Wildland Firefighters now working for the DOD fire dept. here. Not bad considering that some strike teams of Wildland engines barely pass that mark. I know that comment will ruffle some feathers but the truth hurts sometimes.

When I started in Wildland we had a core group of 18 people. We all had the best training and were good at what we did. Today, 14 years later only 2 have stayed with the agency. 3 have gone on to structure crews and the rest have joined the real world working 40 hours a week.

That's my limited experience with the Wildland world. But I know that my story isn't unique. Think about all the good firefighters that the govt. has chased off over the years because they don't really care how they treat their people. Kind of sad but until Wild- land Firefighters get the backing they need, the program will continue to degrade.

I hope you all have a safe summer.
pgc

I also ask: Why is up to the government to pay benefits if that's not the business agreement? Why isn't up to the company who they flew for to pay for their benefits? Why is it always up to the government to pay?

You say "it lessens all of us when the comparisons (private vs. government) and the Monday Morning quarterbacking comments start from the Peanut Gallery." I don't think it lessens anything when you talk about contract and federal employees. We need to talk. But instead of people being on the news and in this forum who always bash the government and blame it for everything, why don't you go after the company who employs these people as you first suggested? Why doesn't everyone write a letter to that employer and ask them why two of their aircraft have gone down this year?

I too FEEL BAD for the victims and their families about the recent accidents that have occurred. I also think Fire and Aviation should take a long look at the fleet of airtankers we currently have and ask themselves if it wise if we keep contracting for aircraft from W.W.II. But with the way contracting is set up now as mandated by Congress, it is not the government's fault or the government's responsibility to pay.

My prayers are with the families and all the fallen firefighters, pilots and contractors who have lost their lives this fire season. I know it has been said alot this year but, lets all keep our heads up and look out for one another this season.

Be safe everyone,
An-R5er

Some good points R5er. I felt those articles and videos that Kelly linked to (7/18) blamed the government, the USFS (some of us) unfairly for the planes that went down. It's easy for the media to point the finger at the govt, which absolves the pointer and their audience of taking individual action (like writing to congress) to make an informed change. Someone would do us a service if they would lay out all the issues and educate us.

It's hard to know what must be changed. Fighting fire from the air is an unforgiving endeavor with no room for problems or mistakes. Airtanker contracting is a complex system: politics, business, culture, etc are involved. Most of us don't understand how it works. We just know the planes are old and we hate to see crew dying at the rate of 3.4 per year (5 this year).

Just for balance to your comment regarding the company, here is a comment from one person who feels H&P does good work in their shops.

Ab.

My thoughts are with the families, I'm getting tired of saying that as I assume are all of you, lets hope this is the last.

As to some of the other comments, I agree with the money issues, the government hasn't shown much interest in getting to the heart of the wildland problem, MEL was a start but reasonable salaries and a more permanent workforce seems to be beyond the understanding of those with the money (anyone in Congress read They Said), if they won't spend it for their own employees it looks pretty bleak for contractors. I guess safety is #1 as long as it doesn't cost too much.

As far as Tankers go, the current system has worked pretty well all these years but a purposefully designed Air Tanker really should be a priority; 50 year old hand me down aircraft designed for use in very different missions is not the way to go if safety is truly #1. With the exception of fighter aircraft I'm pretty sure no other aircraft get stressed like a tanker and I don't foresee the Navy kicking a few F18's loose any time soon. If you've never been inside a Tanker it is amazing how much wasted space there is inside, an aircraft designed from the start as an Air tanker could probably be 1/2 the size of current tankers with a resulting increase in maneuverability. Ejection seats for the pilots might even be an option (Cargo planes don't have them because in their mission it is unlikely they would ever be needed), they would probably be rarely used (no time) but if it could save a few... As far as funding, I'm pretty sure the entire development could be funded for the price of one B2 stealth bomber, were not talking high technology, just modern aircraft made for the job at hand. I don't see the contracts as much of a problem as the aircraft, I'm sure a workable private/public system could eventually be hammered out that would make most happy, perhaps something like CDF has with Government owned aircraft and contract pilots / ground crews.

Helitankers are not the answer either, its not like they don't crash too. A skycrane went down a few years back when the main rotor failed killing the crew and just in the past couple of years I remember at least two 212's crashing with fatalities. Most of the large helicopters out there are also getting on in years. Besides, Tankers and Helicopter serve different functions and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Taking away one of the tools away would just make it harder for those on the ground.

I don't really see the Military as an answer either. Military Fire Departments are primarily staffed with civilian employees because the military personnel are not around long enough to gain the skills needed to do the job well (they get activated, transferred elsewhere or move on to civilian careers). I think pilots would prove to be the same. Wure the military pilots could get the job done but not as well as somebody who is planning on flying fires for a career, so you're back to government or contract pilots although using the military for maintenance support might be a good idea.

FB1, I don't know why trained crash personnel are not used in helibases, tanker bases are generally set up at an airport so presumably they have real crash crews. It's kind of ironic really the Fed wildland agencies won't really support the idea of letting their firefighters get into structures but have no problem parking a crew in wildland gear with Type 3 Engine at a helibase for ARFF instead of an Amertech or P-19 with a trained crew in silvers, go figure.

On a slightly different note: did you know the Park Service is making up their own structural certificate system instead of jumping on board with the established DoD system? Must make sense to somebody.

Well I've rambled on enough for tonight, would have been nice to be a little more positive, an entrapment is not exactly a positive note to end on but at least there were no injuries.

Fedfire

Many of us have been there. Flames and smoke everywhere and you are told to bed down in the sage brush next to a cow pond in the middle of no where in Eastern Oregon. This issue has just been brought up on my helitack crew. The best way to deal with the 2 to 1 is to manage your time well. It takes a lot more thought for those of us on IA resources then the crews working on a project fire. In your example you could have gone 24 hours since it was an IA then go home, or a city park or school gym and get a good 12 hours rest. Another way to do it is to have gone off the clock at 2400 instead of 0400. You would have only had to take 6 hours off to meet your 2 to 1 and could have slept when it was cool and dark and be back up when the burning picked up at sunrise. You don't have to be in your sleeping bag the whole time you're off the clock. Go for a walk, make coffee, read a book, just don't be on the line working and make sure your time reflects the 2 to 1.

Rotor-head.

The aerial firefighting program is an interesting animal. The agencies aim for the lowest possible price for an airtanker contract by awards that keep as many bidders as possible in business so that there is “fair” competition. The avowed goal by management is an “all turbine, 3000 gallon” industry. Yet in this most recent contract cycle the number of 1,800-2,000 gallon DC-4s on contract nearly doubled (from 5 to 9). This by no means throws dirt on the DC-4, it is still a very good platform, especially with a constant flow tank. One company apparently was asking too much for their services, at least as determined by the agency contracting offices. So they received no awards. When they sued, they got four add-on contracts. Maybe they were trying to capture some R&D costs before they had a product, such as a turbine conversion on a P2V. There hasn’t been much visible venture capital interest in an industry that flies each aircraft 200-600 hours each year.

If you look at the contracts you’ll see that they average about $250,000 per aircraft in availability over the season. That must pretty much cover the basic overhead to put the aircraft and crew in service. To my knowledge, the contracts restrict the amount of profit to a “reasonable level” of about 15%. Contractors actually get told to adjust their bids to get their profits inside the decreed margin. Are CWN aircraft, crews, dozers, and helicopters constrained in the same way? I can’t answer that. But 10 days of Type 1 helicopter @4 hours minimum per day ($7,000 per hour) is more than the total availability cost of most 110-180 day fixed-wing airtanker contracts. Additionally, the Type 1 copters have private industry work for machines when they aren’t firefighting, or they go to Australia!

Airtankers are best used in initial attack and extended attack. Airtanker Captains are carded as IA qualified. That means they are reasonably able to understand what the ground wants (do we?), determine fire behavior, and take action. So, in order to save money, aircraft are held until a ground person, or a “responsible IC” (not necessarily at the incident) decides airtankers are needed and a Lead plane or air tactical aircraft arrive first for further assessment. Is this the best resource use?

In the Real Fast GBMF (Great Big Mighty Flying-machine?) airtanker concept, the airbases are pretty far apart. Once you have a fire escape IA the flow rates needed are, in my limited experience, in the 15,000-30,000 gallons per hour range (with copter support Rotorheads!). That is 6 to 12 drops per hour. That flow rate is hard to get with one-hour turn around times and few tankers assigned. To fly the CDF/USFS R-5 flag, the bases and aircraft mix between the agencies does a good job a high percentage of the time. If an agency is willing to give up acreage to fire, for whatever reason, using retardant sparingly (according to some cost/benefit computer model using unsubstantiated subjective value sets) can be ineffective and wasteful. One scenario from an Air Ops Branch Director class years ago was a 10,000 acre timber fire with one airtanker assigned having a one hour turn around. The student who answered "release it, it's a wasted resource" took some flak for his answer. Are we still thinking the same?

Aerial firefighters put themselves in precarious positions to help ground-pounders. If you think smoke is bad on the ground, at 140+ mph it is a solid wall. When you are in a situation where you think you need air support to advance or just hang on the pilots will respond to your call. You think about your crew safety, what position are you putting your aerial team member in?

Yes, it is time for a real review of the aerial firefighting program. All of us need to have our aerial brothers and sisters in the best possible aircraft and of a sufficient number to provide a realistic service. We also need to look at how we use all of our resources and to what end.

JW

Maybe I got suckered in the "firedog" scam, even Einstein (who many call a genius) was wrong once in a while too. But my point still stands there are some folks out there with ideas that may work, some of them may be well meaning crack pots and sometimes these half baked ideas work. I am not a pilot, most likely never will be, if you say it wouldn't work, it more than likely it will not work.
Enough said.

Now to the real reason for this post. I was watching the Discovery channel late last night and they had a program on planes of W.W.II. One of the pilots of the B-24 had a very interesting statement. He said on the "B-24's the gas line ran through the bomb bay, and if the fittings weren't just so then you tended to have an explosion in the bomb bay if there was a spark down there." Now, again, I am no pilot but just seeing this after this weeks air tanker tragedy makes we wonder. As Mr. Spock says if one uses logic and the evidence Captain....

Everyone stay safe, check out your equipment and use your heads and go home in one piece. God speed to all those who can't this fire season.

Just one more thing, Ab, all the Ab's out there, thanks for all the work you good folks do on the web site, keep up the good work.

L.A.V.E.

According to the personnel people that I talked to, If someone were trying to get an appointment now, the only temp/seasonal time that could be counted towards retirement is that which occurred prior to 1988. And that's only if the person filed it back in 88. I don't remember anybody from personnel making a point of that back in 88.

It's just another opm rule with no rhyme or reason. "There's no reason for it, It's just our policy"

-Lazarus-

I don't know of any firefighters who started their career at under age 25 who have not been able to get an appointment prior to age 37. I know of some who had an early mid-life crisis and changed careers in their 30s and are now hit with the 37 MEA and are without career potential. I feel bad for them, but they knew the rules (or at least could have figured them out) when they went into the profession.

If people were to be let in at a reduced (>20 years) then you would have 60 minutes, Dateline, etc. screaming bloody murder when it became time for these folks to retire. (Retired Federal Firefighter on Food Stamps!)

If you used the system that GGFire advocates, you would end up with geriatric firefighters waiting to finish their 20 years. I don't think that would increase safety.

My suggestion would be to have a law passed which would allow for seasonal time to be counted toward retirement, free of charge, with the government sucking up the cost. Seasonals are the closest thing that Uncle has to slave labor, and that increased cost would just be the price of doing business. If you add up all of your seasonal time and still can not meet the 37 MEA, Sierra Foxtrot Yankee.

6

Thanks. Put it on Fire 11 Photo page. Ab.

Drew

I put up some AT photos from Minden Fire Base NV that came in from Bob K.
They are of Tanker 14, a DC6 and Tanker 126, a PB4Y. I added them to AirTanker 5 Photo page that has the memorial pic of Tanker 123. Thanks for the photos, Bob. I also put his photo of the plume of the Topaz Lake Fire that he took from Minden on Fire 11.

Ab.

Only FIVE PERCENT of all donations income last year was used for
administrative expense, and that administrative expense even includes the
cost of shipping to send memorial statues to families of firefighters.

How can this be so low? Because nearly all the work is done by
volunteers. And pretty much everyone connected with the foundation is or
was a firefighter.

And yes, you can specify where the donation goes.

In reply to my question "will an airtanker company that has two aircraft incidents in a row, given similar aircraft failures (the wings breaking away), have all of their aircraft grounded and inspected?" was not an attempt to focus blame or responsibility. You're exactly right, the investigators need to find out what happened and the amateurs (like me) should not make conclusions based on what we see and hear in the media.

What I am asking is an operational and regulational question. Has anyone ever heard of an airtanker company losing two or more aircraft right in a row like this in one fire season?

Last year CDF lost two S-2 tankers in Sonoma County on a fire that was started by a meth lab cooker due to the aircraft colliding with each other. Again, not focusing blame anywhere, but when something like this happens to the same company does the Federal Fire & Aviation Management Office (of NIFC) stop operations for that company until all their aircraft have been inspected or the individual incidents have been investigated?

I' m not trying to single out Hawkins & Powers or their employees. This company has been in the aerial firefighting business for many many years and you don't last that long if you have an unsafe operation. These incidents could have happened to AeroUnion, Neptune, or anyone else.

I feel bad about the loss of the five crewmembers from both aircraft company and for their families who have lost husbands and fathers. I am angered at how the government has used the excuse "they are contractors, not permanent government employees so they do not receive the same benefits that regular government firefighters (permanent or seasonal) receive when they have died in the line of duty." Its scary because the government has it in mind that contracting everything out is the solution to everyones problems.

I pray that our politicians can get their priorities straight and stop trying to go after Martha Stuart with congressional hearings into her stock trading and come up with some legislation to address this problem.

We have lost 11 firefighters this fire season, and frankly that is 11 people too many. We all know that we have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world and it lessens all of us when the comparisons (private vs. government) and the Monday Morning quarterbacking comments start from the Peanut Gallery.

We need a better benefit package made available to all wildland firefighters regardless of status or agency. The airtanker crews have the most hazardous tasks of all because one small mistake can cause disaster for everyone.

MOC4546

Actually, I think we have lost 14 and that's too many. Ab.

I spent the day doing air attack on going wildfires in Colorado and also in
deep, distracted thought about what to do about our current situation
regarding airtankers that fall apart in the air. And, oh yeah, I did air
attack all day. It was not my best day after what happened yesterday.

I agree with Todd's proposal in TheySaid to a point regarding helitankers but
we still must have a fleet of airtankers available. Reasons:

First, helitankers are one tool in our box. I used them today in a situation
which, fortunately, was the proper situation. We succeeded. I squelched a
request for airtankers for two reasons: They were not the proper tool for
the situation and you all (who have not been spiked out for two days) know
the other reason.

Second, airtankers are a critical tool in our box and have evolved over the
last 4 decades into the most efficient means of suppression in the short term
of wildland fires in the mid-to-high range of the haul chart. Arguments can
be made about turnaround time but airtankers deliver retardant and lots of
it. Helitankers can do that too but how many times have we been able to set
up portable retardant plants in short order?

Third, I have many times used helitankers (H2O) where I wish I had airtankers
and we got our butt kicked.

OK off the helitankers. Old airplanes: I was an airtanker base manager 15
years ago when we already considered 4Y's a flying museum piece. I won't go
down the list but they are almost all flying museum pieces by now.

JLP is on the right track towards an alternative for our current situation.
WE NEED NEW AIRCRAFT WITH ZERO AIRFRAMES! WE NEED
AIRTANKERS DESIGNED TO BE AIRTANKERS! WE NEED TO
DO THIS NOW!

The answer is simple: consign the U.S Government (through the congress,
executive order?) to build a spec airtanker and to build a bunch of them real
quick. Tanker pilots please speak, we know the C130 and P3 are not the
perfect airtanker. Money should at this point should be no issue to the
richest country in the world. We are in an ongoing war with wildfire and 1
B1B bomber costs more than it would cost to replace our entire existing
fleet. The details of how to subsequently operate them should be no problem
as the military has already been contracting for years with the private
sector for the operation of government aircraft.

We had a rather philosophical day in the air today. I disagreed with one
comment made today (on rotor victor) by Helitanker Bill, "ours is not to
reason why, ours is to fly". All of us better be reasoning why on this issue
'cuz too many of our friends are no longer with us for lack of our reasoning
why.

Rick and Milt were real characters and truly devoted firefighters. May God
rest their souls and watch over their families. Lets make a positive out of
this in their names and in the names of so many fire aviators who are no
longer with us because their airplanes failed them.

NMAirBear

There is a gentleman who is pushing a program called Fire Hogs that would take "surplus A-10 tank buster/ground support aircraft" and turn them into air tankers. I have been reading his reports for two to three years and they sound well thought out and viable. The cost of refitting the aircraft wouldn't be cheap but there is "newer" replacement aircraft out there. The aircraft was made to fly low and slow and it has only one pilot, I don't know if this a plus or a minus. But there are some people out there with some solutions, I don't know if they are the right ones!

My father was in the Air Force in the maintenance end of the game, I learned a lot from him. The main thing is that maintenance and the air crews are the two biggest factors in safe operations. Add to that the age of the aircraft and that spells alot of preventative maintenance on these old aircraft that were not designed to do what they have been doing for years. My admiration grows for these aircrews with every fire I am on, they do a good job with some antique aircraft. As an example the PBY that went down in Colorado is on the order of 50 to 60 years old. Who knows what kind of treatment the old girl had over that time span.

I am not saying that the contactors are amiss in maintenance, but lets face it sometimes old things break just because of the wear and tear that they have been put through over the years. When one of these things break down, they can't park it as the side of the road and hit the shoe leather.

I do agree that we need a next generation air tanker fleet and I also wonder where they will come from.

Many thanks to all the Air Crew that fly and fight fires, I know you guys have saved me lots of work and maybe every my backside.

Keep it safe and lets hope the politicos get a dose of common sense, real soon!
L.A.V.E.

The slideshow is at the top (at least for right now). Ab.

Does anyone know payload, comparative costs, loading and turnaround times, etc? How fast do they fly when attacking IA in a distant location? Do they need more or less aerial supervision (ATGS?) or other overhead in short supply than the AT's do? What other issues between AT's and Helitanker's?

Say for instance we could have helitankers instead of AT's (pretend private funding is not a problem, if it is).. what else might stand in the way? Laws of some sort that say we have to use contracted AT's because they're cheaper (are they)? The retardant lobby? Resistance to changing a "glamorous" part of the fire culture? The states would be doing one thing and the feds would be doing another? Do we need to educate the Public who want to see the AT's coming in with their load of pink stuff? Maybe the Public just needs to see those video links about throw away planes.

After the C130 went down, I saw the crash video. I was glad the rest of the 130's were grounded. On my next IA, when the AT came over, I had a flash wondering if it was going to come apart overhead. That video was more graphic than I realized.

Its the AT families that deserve the HERO label. I don't know how they do it.

Todd

Crews Gain on the Squire Fire
www.mailtribune.com

Lots more stories on the FireNews Page. Oregon is burning. Give it about 20 seconds to load the current articles. Ab.

The Third International Wildland Fire Conference is happening in Sydney Australia, 3 – 6 October 2003 at the Sydney Convention and Exhibition Centre. The "brochure" that came is too long and complex for theysaid, but you can access the information at the link below:
www.wildlandfire03.com/home.asp

You can also e-mail the contact person, Jennifer Lindberg at JLINDBERG@tourhosts.com.au for info on how you can help spread the word regarding the conference and/or sign up for it.

She says this:

The Conference was last held in Canada in 1997 and attracted over 700 delegates. The Conference will bring together the world’s leading fire management professionals and practitioners, policy makers, scientists, researchers, academics, technical specialists, educational groups, safety representatives, and equipment manufacturers and suppliers. We are looking forward to the 2003 event exceeding all expectations.

I was doing some research yesterday while thinking about fighting 
fire safely under the extreme fire conditions we're having this summer. 
Especially in light of the new and fast-moving eastern Sierra/GBasin 
fires, and the OR and WA fires. Extreme behavior is not limited to
R3, folks!

I came across this little dramatic and descriptive piece written about 
a dangerous fire situation on July 5 in Wyoming. (Ab can you transform 
it from pdf so people can easily access it?) 

We can't stress too often the HEADS UP! The 10 and 18 
work. The chain of command works. Sometimes a very fast response 
is needed to pull people off the line. 

Thanks for telling this story, Washington Incident Management Team.
Made the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

Hooray for the Meteorologists and the Dispatchers and all who do
their jobs impeccably. 
NorCal Tom

I put it in html and it's easily readable: Daley Fire Complex disengagement. I put it on the Documents Worth Reading page and site map. Ab.

I understand how the "maximum retirement age" was reached mathematically. I understand it is law and not policy. My point is that it is causing problems already and the decade of retiring "old firefighters" is just beginning. It may have been a good policy to ask Congress to make into law at one time. As it stands it is now a hindrance to fighting fire safely and effectively. And it will only get worse. I was chastising the agency heads for not going before congress to propose the law be changed...while it will still do some good. And then only if they are not attempting to do so already. The "specious" argument of the WO makes me believe they are not.

I see no reason that ,for example, a 40 year old experienced firefighter could not receive a permanent position with the explicit understanding that they would only receive a portion of their retirement benefits upon reaching age 55. While it would not be as simple as "for every year of age over 35 (when you receive the position) you lose 5% of your retirement benefits" it is still pretty simple math. In this case the 40 year old could expect to receive (about) 25% less upon retirement than a 35 year old. Many experienced firefighters would jump at such an opportunity and alleviate much of the current (and upcoming) major shortage. The one size fits most "solution" is not working and I believe will be a killer.

The argument that "if we allowed experienced firefighters that were over the "maximum entry age" to have permanent positions we would lose the "special early retirement"" has no merit since a simple alternative exists. It sounds more like a threat to me. Often when agency heads will not propose needed legislation such as this the unions must. This is very embarrassing for the folks at the top of the effected agency(s)...who are invariably called before committee to be asked why they have not proposed the legislation themselves. I suspect I know why the BLM, USFS, etc. are not...and the "threat" of losing the special retirement is a good way to shut the unions up.

It may be a good threat...but it is not a good argument.

Dana

There are 5 new photos on the 30mi Fire photo page thanks to mnm561 who went to the Washington memorial site dedication on the one year anniversary of the tragedy.

Ab.

As an 18 year CDF vet with FS experience I must beg to differ. Most of what you are talking about is either patently false or Station specific, except the hose issue (which I also beg to differ your inference that synthetic hose is by definition better).

I am a CDF Captain and I ALWAYS go up the hill with my firefighters. The pump can take care of itself until the second or third engine arrives.

My firefighters receive a weather briefing including Burning Index each day.

Yes there are a lot of new supervisors with many new firefighters, and this is different from the federal wildland agencies how?

Captain 180

Thanks Capt. I expect your response to be just the first to refute Convert's post. Without having attended the CDF Academy, I must only assume as with other academies or formalized training, there will be discrepancies large and small between classroom theory and field practice. Please note my advice to Convert to wait until arriving at his new unit before getting too excited. Ab.

CDF's been playing this game for a while. Have a little patience, wait till you get to your station to see how it really is. Ab.

That is my fondest fire story.
Stay safe and watch out for the dragons out there.
L.A.V.E.

Good question Ab sez, chuckling over his coffee. Lotsa detail there...

We have theysaid and you can e-mail Ab. We have no automatic mailing service. If anyone has info on your crew, we'll put them in touch with you. Ab.

As a rookie I was told to always check out the equipment on the engine we were running (3/4 ton 4x4) "first thing"... including the pump, reel, etc. to make sure everything was working. I believe the exact words were "don't leave the station without checking everything works". To drive the importance of this directive home I was not told about a small prescribed fire that was planned one morning when I was asked to run to town for supplies immediately on arrival. I took the runner truck (an old pickup) to town and on my way back to the station was surprised to see a 3 acre grassfire about 2 miles from the station. I called it in on the radio and received the response that everyone was already on their way to a plantation fire and I should just handle it myself.

So I "raced" to the station, got in the engine and flew back to the fire. I pulled up and prepared for what would probably take 15-20 minutes of easy "wetlineing" pulling a bit of hose up to the cab window and goin back to start the pump. It usually fired up right away...but not today. I checked the fuel first and of course the tank was dry. So I opened up the side panel where we always carried spare fuel and found none. As I checked more and more places I got the sinking feeling that I would have to drive all the way back to the station for gas...and the "easy fire" was now about twice as large as when I had first seen it...approaching the pines I had pulled into protect first. I knew that by the time I returned there would be trees on fire and I would have some "splaining" to do unless i was willing to lie.

I agonized about the call for about 30 seconds, wondering if I might be able to get back with gas before the trees caught fire if I really sped. The risk just seemed out of proportion to any possible benefit so I called the other units on the radio and "fessed up" asking for suggestions and saying I might need some help due to my failure to check for gas BEFORE leaving the station. I thought it was odd that there should be so much laughter in the background since they were all supposedly busy fighting a fire....That was when I saw the other units pulling out of the trees about a half a mile away. They pulled up out of breath from laughing and wiping tears form their eyes saying that my voice had seemed a few octaves higher than normal when I called for help.

Initially I thought I had been the victim of a practical joke....but it was much more than that. It was a good lesson...several good lessons actually. And a test. The boss said they put most rookies through this test to see if they were too proud to fess up and ask for help. Those that were willing to risk a serious fire to protect their ego were not asked back the next year.
==============

The "Smokey Says" story reminded me of a fellow who happened to be a minor public official and therefore felt he was somewhat exempt from the law. He insisted in burning his trash in a barrel in his back yard despite the fact that doing so is illegal in our state and he had started several small fires over the previous few years. We had warned him, and cited him, and threatened him and foamed his barrel till it looked like a huge ice cream cone...all to no avail. We finally caught him burning one day when one of the contracted airtankers had to make a few proficiency drops. Since these drops were usually just water on plantations, the boss called in a airdrop on this guys burning barrel. I had binocs on the guy when he turned around to see what the heck was making that loud noise...as the bomber came in at tree level. Even from the side I could see his jaw bounce off his chest....right before the doors opened and his barrel went a** over teakettle.

Fireronin

Good ones. Ab.

Costs of fighting fire -- in case some theysaiders haven't see this one yet:
www.csmonitor.com/2002/0711/p01s01-usec.html

Forest Service official warns that massive wildfires could happen again:
"48 percent of projects designed to cut down trees in fire-prone areas to reduce
risks were delayed by appeals..."
www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2002/07/11/18924.php

Many online articles on the FireNews page. Ab.

Safety Advisory

To read the Price Canyon Entrapment 72hr Report, click HERE. Any comments? Ab.

Be Safe people,
SoCal Fireguy

To read this preliminary report, click HERE. There are important lessons to be learned from all such reports - so we can be safer in the future. Any comments? Ab.

My first trip out west... this goes back to 1994, I'm the EMT, and I go around to all the guys while we're waiting to mob and ask if they have any allergies or meds I should know about. I get to one guy, and he's telling me that he's on prozac. Now, I didn't just fall of the turnip shelf, but I don't wanna tick this guy off, so I play it straight. I ask him why... he says, "cuz i'm schizo". Well, for the rest of the trip that's just who he was... "schizo"
=============

Ab, here's a good one that I'm not too sure I want to tell this group!

This only happened in 2000 at the Canyon Ferry Complex near Helena, MT. We were working the fire and pulled out our sack lunches. Anyone ever worked a fireline groaned when they read that line, i'm sure!

Anyway, I pull out my lunch, and I got the booby prize. The dreaded burritto!! Well, perhaps some like this pre-packaged intestinal smart bomb, but it's low on my list. Throw in the sliced jalapenos that were in a baggie, and it's a belly buster!

Well, the package was all wet... my whole sack lunch was wet.. and the items in my daypack were wet. I figured it was sweat, we were working pretty hard, and it was hot. So, I ate the cookies, and begged food off of everyone else.

That night, i'm laying in the cotton sleeping bag (we've all been there), and my back is all itchy... it's driving me nuts! So, being the medic I think I am, I figure it's just from all the sweating (that night I skipped the shower, and waited two hours for the phones instead). I flip over, and finally get to sleep.

I wake up the next morning, and my back is itching like mad.. I can't figure it out, I go out and work the line. By noon, my back is raw.. the pack is rubbing in just the wrong spots.

Finally, we get back into camp, I tuck in my pride and go to base medical. They ask me if I was walking around with my shirt off as it looks like I got a sunburn! I'm baffled, their baffled.. my buddy is so baffled, that he takes a picture. The burn is in the shape of my daypack... and then I start to think about that sack lunch.

THE JALEPENOS! Yep... the juice from those peppers leaked out over my lunch, into my pack and eventually through my yellows. I got a burn fighting fires from jalepenos. Luckily, my buddy has it all on film.

What category would that picture go in, Ab???
=============

Another story, same fire, we were riding in our school bus to the drop point when we lost the hub cover on the bus. Luckily we had a mechanic on our crew, he takes the bladder out of a bladder bag, and uses a leatherman to unscrew the hub cover, and replace the broken piece with the vinyl piece from the bladder bag. Pretty smart, we were tempted to break the other three wheels so we could ditch a couple more bladder bags!
=============

Another time we were sent to Texas with our engines as a strike team. They flat-bedded the engines down and flew us a day later. We land in the Waco Airport and we're sitting around waiting for our ride to the motel. Not having been out of state with the engines before, i'm thinking they put you up in some dive!

We're joking that this ritzy hotel on a small billboard in the airport is where we'll stay. Pool, jacuzzi, and continental breakfast all sound too good to be true. Joking around, I point to a room on the terrace above the pool, and say, "that's my room!".

Wouldn't you know it... that's is where we stayed!?!?! Who know being an engine slug would be so comfy! It should be mandatory that there be a jacuzzi at each fire camp....ahhhhh....to dream!
=============

One of my favorite stories is when a camp I was at in Utah got burned over, and we only had two days til demob. Rather than have us set up in the new camp, and then demob the next day, they put us up in Pendleton at the National Guard Armory for R&R for two days.

Free shuttle van 24/7 into Pendleton. We went in to town (wearing our nomex, who knew we'd need anything else! Our contract doesn't give us any R/R days), went in to this honky tonk, and immediately knew we were in trouble.

Here we are, a group of easterners, and we walk into a country western bar on Karioke night!!!! Well, we walked in and every head turned.

So, we settle in at the bar, and do what good firefighters do in bars. After a few...uhhh... let's just say root beers, we get the nerve to do a song as a group. Lets see....what song should we pick????

Well, we were all a bit homesick, so in this honky tonk, we chose, "New York, New York". Leg kicks and all.

We made quite a stir, and after we were done, the applause was deafening. We didn't have to pay for another..ahem...root beer, the rest of the night!

The fun started when one of us, to remain nameless, uh... falls asleep... in the mens room at the armory when we got back from the honky tonk. The cleaning women starts screaming at 4 a.m. that there is a dead guy in the mens room and wakes up the two hundred firefighters sleeping in the armory bays. Ahh...that was funny. Or the other firefighter (same night) with the uh....stomach bug...yea, that's it... who loses it into his sleeping bag repeatedly...

Hope to be out west soon! Rumor is we'll be available around the 22nd of July!

Doc Moleskin

Good stories, Doc Moleskin. Glad yer still with us. Ab.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   INCIDENT    |ST|UNIT| SIZE | % | EST |TOTAL|CRW|ENG|HELI|STRC| $$$
     NAME      |  |    |      |CTN| CTN |PERS |   |   |    |LOSS|C-T-D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
AB             |CA| SWR|   750| 90|  UNK|   62|  2|  9|   0|   0|   NR
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So who named THAT one, huh?
K

Hummmmmmm, very interesting. Ab.

www.nandotimes.com

We have a photo of women inmates working a hillside in Ventura Co near Ojai on the Fire 5 photo page (Ventura Rx). Their burnout may have reduced fire expansion on the recent Wolf Fire. Ab.

Ah, flagging stories...

I heard yesterday that temp and seasonal employees already hired can
stay on. But purchases for tools and gear for them are frozen, and they
can't get any overtime. Can someone verify this??

-1039-

Forest Service Freezes Funds
www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0711firemoney11.html

Freezing of funds does not bode well for the near future. Lots of regular Forest Service work, including environmental work, will grind to a halt. Should put up some signs in the campgrounds that need repair that there's a money shortage and the Public should call their congress people. Ab.

The IR crew I was on was dispatched to a fire on an adjacent district. The fire was about 3 acres, back in there a ways and two guys from the district had been there a good chunk of the day and needed help. We were being flown in, but it was hot and high altitude and they could only carry two of us at a time. Dave and I were the first load and had instructions to tie in with the district guys - who, by the way, had a bum radio and hadn't been heard from for a while - and begin scouting the fire and have a plan ready when the rest of the guys got there.

The fire was on the east side of a ridge just below timberline and the wind was out of the west popping over the ridge and starting to push the fire down hill toward some logging slash. We were in the goat rocks above the fire getting our bearings, when out of nowhere a tanker roars over. We then hear dispatch tell the tanker that no one was on the fire and do an IA run on it. We dial up our high tech "packset radio" and get nobody. No matter, we are up wind away from the head of the fire, no problem. Gotta get a pic, so I dug in my pack for my camera, Dave was digging for his. Around comes the tanker - cool! - wow! looks like he is going to drop across the head we are gonna get a great pic! Wups gotta turn on the light meter! Hurry he's coming in. Wow kinda looks like he heading straight at us? Can't be, no reason to drop across the top of the fire, no fuel, can't go up hill. Yup he is coming at us, first pass is a dry run right, damn gotta get it focused on infinity, Dave yells S@@# door open! So down we go, heads toward the plane no time to do it right cause I was gonna get the pic! Pink stuff, this is gonna be great! Snap-down. Splotch! the world goes pink! Thump! Durn Dave must of jumped on my back! That kinda hurts. And its cold and slimey! That sucked. Dave eloquent as ever s$#$, F#$%. Slowly we get up. Arms, legs, fingers - yup all accounted for. Dave "did you get the picture?" Yup You? You bet ! Bout this time we hear some laughing. Here are the two district guys who came up the hill pointing at the ground. Here's this nice pink pattern were two human silhouettes. We had to laugh cause it was kinda funny looking, then I took a step slipped in the pink snot, down I went and that hurt too.

Well we did the job, put the fire out, saved forest one more time. Oh and the picture? I never did get the light meter turned on and it was over exposed. Could see just enough to see it would have been a geat pic, a classic! Damn if Daves didn't come out tho, and it was a classic...............

olddog

Like the fish that got away? Ab.

My first year as a Crew Captain (I think - it was about 1990 or 1991) we were assigned to a fire on the ANF, and, IIRC, it was Big Bear where we got our Motel rooms. The fire was considerably further down the mountain, and the morning we got off our 24-hour (more like 36) hour shift we all piled into our Dodge van and wheeled our way up the mountain on this tortuous highway with sheer cliffs and bottomless canyons, often on each side, and one hairpin curve after another. Our driver's nickname was "Parnelli". Anyway, we arrived safely and had a few hours sleep, and were all in the van again at 0500 in order to get to the 0600 briefing. "Parnelli" started the engine and headed for the parking lot exit, and before we had traveled 50 feet the right front wheel literally fell off the vehicle. A castellated nut on the steering arm had disappeared, and the wheel just fell flat onto the driveway ...........................

Shifting gears to another category: Oncet (an amusing colloquialism, don't you think?), several of us were sitting around IB at a large fire up North, and one of us happened to glance up. He had time to say "Look!" and we all looked up to see an orange dot in the sky getting larger and larger. About two seconds later a full banjo impacted the ground about thirty feet away and exploded. Turned out it had fallen from a Sky Crane at maybe 2000' AGL...... I think it was the same incident (or maybe not) where a female pilot of a Type III 'copter had her tennis shoes fall out the side door, prompting a grounding and full FAA investigation.

Again, when I was quite new as a Crew Captain, so it was back in the early 90's, my CDF Inmate/Firefighter Handcrew, for three years or so, was the Helitack component of a USFS Helicopter. A USFS foreman flew in the right seat, and my Crew (seven of them, as my short Crew was divided in half to provide 7-day a week coverage), and I, sat in the back two rows. This was an ad-hoc arrangement due to USFS budget cutbacks. Anyway, flying into a fire near Fort Hunter Ligget, we were looking for a landing spot to dump me and my Crew, and we all happened to glance up at just the moment the sun glinted off the large high-tension power lines we had just flown under. Yes, the pilot was as startled as were we. So much more to tell, but, in the immortal words of Donald Duck, That's all for now.

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

Good story, anyone got others to amuse us? This Ab wouldn't mind hearing some more funny ones like the two about dousing the illegal campfire. Remember that thread we had once upon a time about the blue rooms in fire camp - that was fun.

Ideas: What about bears, rattlers, scorpions, other pests, shortages of food or equipment in fire camp or while spiked out? Getting dunked while crossing a river? Watching your gear float downstream. Strange beds? Strange bedfellows? Snore'rs. The time you didn't sleep. The Safety. Fine people you have met while fighting fire? The true story of the woman resident who was offering free backrubs as a motivator and thank you on that norcal complex? The family who offered their cabin floor? The weirdest food you've ever eaten. The food you wished you hadn't eaten. The time you didn't eat. Saving that important barn, expensive interface house, historical outhouse, woodpile or sacred tree. Blisters and poison oak. Remedies. Chants the hotshots sang out before the days of PC police. Experiences in the smoke. The variety of firefighters and support staff in firecamp? The biggest ego. Unspoken firecamp rules. Spoken ones.

Your first fire experience, seduced by fire, hooked on fire. (You can create a new moniker any time you like. <HAW HAW>) Fire tools that break. Standing in line for the one firecamp phone? For a shower? The firecamp from hell. Your best firecamp experience. Camp crud, do we all get it? The redflag warning weather that never came? the weather that did? the weather we didn't hear about and what happened next? Your coldest night? hottest day? Jumping into the black, retreating in front of the flames. Crews that practice that and dropping their equipment. Your closest call? The biggest cluster. Getting spammed by the AT. Best prank on a newbie, on your crewmate, on the DIVS or camp overhead? People you got attached to just hearing them over the scanner.

A story you've never told anyone. Smelly sox, shirts? The most colorful crew carrier driver? The weirdest. Crew rituals.

Or on a more serious note: a favorite mentor and what they taught you, rescuing the mule that fell off the wilderness trail, saving someone who got hurt or could have gotten hurt, a story of someone who went the extra mile, who made all the difference?

We all have these stories. If anyone wants to tell them, we could make a list of those, too.

Ab.

Measures to protect foreign firefighters from lawsuits
www.missoulian.com

I was wondering if you had any information on Helishots? To my knowledge there is only one crew out there in R5. Where are they? When was the first Helishot crew formed? What kind of ship do they fly? Are the standards different from a regular shot crew? What is the practicality of a Helishot crew? Start up cost? My foreman sent me out on this research, and I figured you were probably the best source. He would like some info, because he wants to start a Helishot crew up here in Idaho. Thanks for your time, and your website.

Fireidaho

P.S. Idaho is prime and ready to burn, the single trees are really itching to get up and go. We had to use a tanker to slow one down today because it poked it's little head up into the tree's and started to run away.

Browse our Arroyo Grande Flight Crew page and take a look at its description page. That will give you a starting place. Readers? Ab.

I saw that FireWolf added going direct vs going indirect (some more serious terms) to the Fire terms and nicknames list. I got a taste of the reality of these two approaches on the Big Bar Complex and in FF1 we learned the benefits and dangers of both methods. The CDF capt who organized and led the FF1 class said that CDF often fights fire using the direct method while the FS uses the indirect method. Is this true in general? I know many large fires must employ the indirect method because of size and extent of the fire and the topography, but I've seen the FS go direct on IA, sometimes with air support. When CDF manages large fires do they employ more direct methods than fed teams managing large fires? Seems going direct you'd have to be very sure of winds/weather, but maybe these issues are very present in awareness and are more consciously mitigated because of the proximity of the flames.

Another question: Have more firefighters died while fighting fire indirectly than on direct attack? 30-mi, Storm King, Loop, Decker, Mann Gulch and Rattlesnake (?) to name a few that were indirect. (Did anyone ever get the details on the Rattlesnake? Was that indirect? I seem to recall the religious group was not directly on the fire.) Well, just some questioons I had over the last week --prompted by the smell of smoke in the air.

We had lots of smoke in the New River valley just before the 4th. ATs over head and the whump whump whump of a heavy helicopter. Deja vu. Found out later that Hoopa was burning, but maybe there was some other closer start on the 2nd. I'm curious whether there was a start on New River. Whatever... It's hot and dry in NorCal.

FireBill, amazing story. Why am I not surprised?
As far as the CDF-FS rivalry, all I can say is I love you all!

Be Safe,
Mellie

More stories and photos here: www.lagrandeobserver.com/news/section.cfm?cid=1

Firescribe

Spot on with the CDF MKU kitchen and crew! Perfect reason why you don't order one of those for a small feed. That was one of the biggest problems with feeding at federal shows, they shut them down when the national caterer comes on scene after one or two meals. Everything is added up and divided by the number of meals served to get the "average meal cost."

Once you get them in place, leave those MKU's there. Good food and the average will come out close to the nationals if you work it right.

"Another CDF BC"

Just got back from the Missionary Ridge fire in southwest Colorado. It's was extremely dry down there. The fire made sum extreme runs in the afternoon. So, keep your heads up and don't get to relaxed out there because, it could come up on you when you're not looking. We don't need anymore deaths this year. so be safe.

seafire.

It begins:

SHOW LOW
Rick Lupe was leaning on the hood of his ash-stained silver pickup, his black baseball cap pulled low over his forehead and his dark eyes blazing out of brown sunglasses.

Lupe, a division supervisor on the "Rodeo-Chediski" fire, was running a part of the fireline that was crucial not only to this city's survival but also to other towns.

His dark eyes were blazing that day not because of the smoke in the air, but because there was fire on the wrong side of Snake Ridge. If the fire spilled down there, it could...

Ab.

Service honors Oregon firefighter
news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=44739

Forest Fires Burn in Northern Quebec
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,57105,00.html

At one time in the distant past we were a "lean-and-mean" firefighting outfit.

On another topic:

"The Jurassic Captain" scribbled: <<I've always used M.I.S.T. to describe USFS suppression efforts "Maximum Income Suppression Tactics" The Jurassic Captain>>

The limitations of e-correspondence notwithstanding (I don't know if Jurassic had his tongue in his cheek or what), this type of statement tends to steam my clams. I am CDF, not USFS, and on occasion I hear my CDF colleagues make this same sort of statement regarding Brand-X (USFS - : ) ). I am not a naive person, but I have absolutely no doubt at all that very nearly 100% of the firefighting personnel in all wildland firefighting agencies do their absolute best to extinguish fires in the most expeditious and competent manner possible. For most of us there is more than enough fire to keep us occupied and employed, and for nearly all of us there is the necessity to know that we are professionals doing the best job we can. I think you would have to search long and hard to find an instance of an employee of any wildland fire agency deliberately attempting to prolong a fire for personal income (unless you were utilizing the national News media, which can focus in with extreme resolution on individual cases). In particular, I think that the USFS has a long and proud tradition of excellence in the face of public indifference and fiscal penury. I admire the USFS as a firefighting outfit which is much better than the taxpayers should expect for their meager expenditure in wages. Now, bureaucratic inefficiency is an area where improvements could certainly be made.............
CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

Have you been following our posts as we've been creating our humorous list of FIRE Terms/Nicknames? Jurassic Captain was just adding another acronym meaning for M.I.S.T.

Hey Readers, don't go gettin' PC and bent twisted on us now. This "terms" thread is all in fun.
Ab.

I hope we can get past finger pointing and get on with the work of mitigating heavy fuel loadings in our forests, especially near interface communities for a start.

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks, hope all are well and be safe!
R6FF

www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/team1/fires/RattleIncident/july6operationalbrief.html

Please take time to link to this and join in a moment of silence.

NorCal Tom

For those of you having trouble getting into the www.r5.fs.fed.us websites, try entering from our links page, federal (then click National Interagency Incident Management Teams, and CIIMT 1) or... try it from the Fires, 2002 page (go down to Utah, Rattle Complex, then "Honor and Awareness" in the lower left).

Evidently some people are able to enter through a long-standing link but when they try to enter using the url alone, it will not work. On a dinosaur computer at a neighbor's house, I just tried getting to the site sent in by NorCal Tom, above, and it worked. I could also access the site from Fires, 2002, but I couldn't do it by just putting the url in the location window. Must be some new security codes in place on that R5 website. Strange. Ab.

Radios from the Boise fire cache (NIRSC) are in short supply and are being rationed. The number and size of fires has stretched resources thin. Do not expect to be able to check a radio out if you show up at a fire without your own.

The condition of radios I have seen have ranged from new GPHs to falling apart LPHs. Forest Service regulations state that radios are to be disposed of when they are 10 years old, LPHs are at least 15 years old. They are good radios when in good condition, but wear and tear reduce their usefulness.

If I was to be sent out on the line with an old LPH radio that I might need as my only lifeline to help, I would think the person handing me the radio did not really care about my personal safety.

Most of the radios that I have repaired at incidents are looking like they have not had annual maintenance performed on them (another FS reg). Freq error too far off, deviation not set right, blown speakers, rubber switch boots worn, PTT boots ripped, the list goes on. Remember your life could depend on that radio.

My personal rant on the subject. In the Forest Service, radio takes a backseat to computer data and telephones. Office managers are more concerned about getting daily office work done than providing safe communications in the field. I figure a failure of the computer network is only a minor inconvenience compared to a failure of the radio system that is the only communications out in the woods. A technician's time should be spent maintaining and improving the radio system.

In Region 6 (OR and WA) there is going to be a re-organization of the Information Resources. Basically what they are trying to do is reduce the workforce, the workload will not be reduced any but will increase. Customer service on the forests will decrease as the people in the field will have less contact with local techs (if they even have a local tech). What is going to happen is that the techs that are good at their jobs are going to see a lot of their time eaten up by data work and travel time to forests that have not developed quality electronics technicians.

Not too mention forests that will not let their techs go off forest to fire as they are too nervous that their data network might fail. How many of you have went to communications to have your radio repaired only to be told the COMT won't or is not able to repair a radio. COMTs that are not electronics technicians is a whole different rant that I could go off on for a long time.

The IRM re-organization is a bad idea. If you are R6 FS let your management know right now, time is short replies are due July 12. Quality of service is going to go down the tubes as techs are stretched thin and their time is wasted on data. Contracting out radio service is just going to cost more and the pride of ownership and quality of work is just not there, contractors are only out to make a buck.

If you can't tell, I would rather be off on a fire supporting the groundpounders as much as I can than be at the office making sure they can surf the web.

COMT

PS If you are having radio interference around the new type 62? FS engine on a TAC freq of 168.050, the interference might be coming from the electronic engine system monitor for the water pump.

I found two engines from South CA that had the same problem. Replacing the monitor solved the problem. If you are having problems try unplugging the engine monitor at the back of it while listening to the tac channel interference.

The engine foreman on one of them said that his local techs and auto shop people were pointing the finger at each other and he had gotten nowhere with them.

The Fire Weather Units are still online here.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/north/fwx/
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/south/fwx/

These friars were behind on their belfry payments, so they opened a small florist shop to raise funds. Since everyone liked to buy flowers from the men of God, a rival florist across town thought the competition was unfair.

He asked the good fathers to close down, but they would not. He went back and begged the friars to close. They ignored him. So, the rival florist hired Hugh MacTaggart, the roughest and most vicious thug in town to "persuade" them to close.

Hugh beat up the friars and trashed their store, saying he'd be back if they didn't close up shop. Terrified, they did so, thereby proving that:
Hugh and only Hugh can prevent florist friars.

Danny

HAW, HAW. Ab.

It seems that each agency has different ways of attacking a fire. Some are slow to start but end up building large fire camps. While others throw everything at a fire from the beginning and go home. Some agencies get paid the same when they are in the station or on a fire. While others get special fire pay.

I do not see any criticism of other state forestry agencies. Sometimes we criticize what we don't understand or are jealous of.

I have kept quiet for some time. But, am getting tired of all the criticism of CDF.

I am now semi-retired and enjoy wildland fire web site. Keep up the good work.

Dennis

Dennis, when this thread started, we began the FIRE Terms/Nicknames page with Ab's admonishment from several years ago. I suggest you read it now at the top of the FIRE Terms/Nicknames page. Like those on different crews that sometimes are in competition, CDF and the federal fire agencies of R5 have been in competition for years. This is part of our culture. (The upside of competition is the group cohesion that may be necessary for survival of a firefighting crew.) That said, it's also true that a very many of us work for one agency and then the other. Those of us in this wildlandfire.com community recognize the strengths of the different groups of us. We do not wish each other ill. Hell, many of us meet up every summer on fires and work together quite well. We have many shared goals even while having different missions. The rivalry among us, however, is legend.

If you take to time to read back, all the initial "fire jargon" that came in on this thread was slanted against the fed fire organizations. The Pissfur Willies, Parkies and and Parent Company firefighters didn't take offense when those terms were sent in. Unless I'm mistaken, the CDFers among us know this is not personal, dontcha, guys and gals?

Oh, the reason CDF has historically gotten picked on and not other state agencies is that there is no other state agency that measures up to CDF. It is by far the largest firefighting force outside the federal government.

Ab.

Independent Investigations of Firefighter Deaths:
www.theworldlink.com

Oregon Firefighter Didn’t Have Spotter
news.statesmanjournal.com

Arsonists
www.missoulian.com

Fire Crew Gets Boot for Beer
www.spokesmanreview.com

Pyrojournalism- what they do to journalists that get outta line
www.azstarnet.com

Big Ernie -- the "being" in the sky that was responsible for sending lightning and money.

Jumper H<snip, but rhymes> -- Girlfriend/wife of smokejumper (not trying to be offensive -- as I was one also)

Jump List -- goes hand in hand with above -- real list is where you are on the call out to fires -- other list was "on the cuff"

Legs -- people that were firefighters, but not jumpers -- as they still had workable legs.

Mud Flap on a Stick -- Fireswatter tool -- widely used in the southern area.

CDF -- the three grades you didn't want to get in school.

4-11 -- I know we're supposed to be "clear speak" now, but I remember how those numbers coming across the radio would make everyone stand up and listen -- as it meant FIRE REPORT!!

Friction Tree -- Would like to know if I'm the only fool that ever fell for this one -- let me know if anyone else bought it. Years ago when I got my first district fire job, we were told that trees that had another tree leaning against it could start a fire when the wind blew against it -- basically rubbing two sticks together. If we could locate these "dangerous" trees, pinpoint by township, range and section, and fill out the appropriate form (YES, the district actually had a friction tree form -- even had a number for it) -- we could turn them in and be rewarded with $25 for each "find" at the end of the season. I was a busy, busy patrolman, documenting all those "bound to start fires" trees -- turned in my huge pile of forms -- and surely did get my "reward" at the end of season party!!

Cache Queen

Also known as "Squeak Tree". We had some fun with that one a year or so ago... Ab.

Yep, yer right about the R5 web site! The www theoretically means that the web site is available to the "world", so it shouldn't be a matter of not being able to view the content either internally or externally. The old www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us doesn't work at all in either Netscape (version 4.8 or 6.2) or Internet Explorer (5.0,darn near newest edition). This works a little: www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/index.html, but you aren't going to get any place important after the main page. Check the NICC GACC map info page here: www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/geomap.html. Looks like all the links on the map work except the Western Great Basin and R5 both North and South. Ab.

"Co$t, causes and implications" of this year's wildfires:
www.arizonarepublic.com

More information on Alan Wyatt's death:
news.statesmanjournal.com

This just re-affirms the fact I have too much time on my hands. Well, hope this clears up the term "skookum".

2nd Generation IHC Supt.

Check our Classifieds Page for boot manufacturer's links and ya can do a search of the archived "TheySaid" pages for "break-in", the question has been asked and answered by readers many times over the years. We don't necessarily agree with any of the home-style recipes, including the one above. Ab.

Ab, please add this which I got to via the Fires, 2002 link you have at the top of theysaid: http://wildfires.nwcg.gov/colorado/missionary/newsreleases/newsrelease_missionary_070302am.html

Keep an eye on the articles that come up on the Fire News Page. Ab.

Firefighter dies at blaze in Colorado

Condolences.

Will someone send in more info as it becomes available. Everyone, BE SAFE. And those of you driving this holiday, BE SAFE. Ab.

I saw fightfire75's posting and I'm an available firefighter. I took the basic classes from Dick Mangan in Missoula, MT then retook the basics from Rod Goss (from Grayback Forestry, at the local job center in Missoula). I was on call for Grayback crew when they announced they weren't sending anyone out. So now I'm fit, pack tested, carded and packed to go with no job to go to. Extended travel is not a problem. <snip>

Sincerely, TK

Thanks Ab, and thanks for the resource, I've been using it a lot lately trying to get my butt out there. :)

If anyone wants to get in touch with TK, we'll pass it on. Ab.

Bench Warmers or Home Team: Fuels folks who are not allowed to go on fire due to Nepa/Forest Targets. And, typically cover for the "suppression" folks while they are on assignment.

What happened to the "old Forest Service", when all red carded folks dropped everything (especially in preparedness level 5) and went to support fire suppression efforts? I know there is a lot of difference between then and now, but the basics are basic. Okay, enough (pissin' and moanin') whining for today.

Here's a good one for ya, "What is the difference between Hotshot line and Smoke Jumper line?"

Jumper line is black on both sides....(har,har) I always use that for my intro to the newbies who came to our crew in hopes of gaining employment as a "lawn dart".

Not to bash on jumpers, I have several friends in the jumper world and they know my intentions are well meant. We weren't there to train new jumpers for the jump program but if they could pull their weight with us, they would do well making the transition from "Dirt Pig" to "Lawn Dart".

Here is another I haven't seen yet,
Skookum: Term used to make sure everyone understands, or, someone who is skilled at something...

"The Ab's are "skookum" at keeping us at home entertained"

Thanks,
2nd Generation IHC Supt.

Seems to me we're all entertaining each other. You sure about the adjective skookum? The only way I've heard it used in the past is to imply someone unskilled. Maybe times are changing? Ab.

Yeah - our training Captain drills into the recruits that they must always shout "ROCK!!" when they see or are responsible for a rock succumbing to the force of gravity. Then _I_ get them. Every time we ascend a minor escarpment, the constant refrain of "ROCK!!!" reminds me of the parable of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf". I periodically and loudly advise my Crew that unless the descending item has a force (F) sufficient to cause injury (M=Mass times A=Acceleration, i.e. F=MA) that I don't wanta hear about it. OOoops - I think I mean momentum (M), which is Mass X Velocity. If is was smart I'd be rich. Anyway, Pulaski is right on, since ultimately all that matters is how loud they shout it.........

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

Firefighting supervisors in short supply

The Jobs Page, Job Series 0462 and Series 0455 Pages are updated.

Some neat new fire photos of the Susanville Inversion, Ollalie Complex and Cannon Fire are up on Fire 11 Photo page.

Ab.

Goin' Gunnysack - describing a fire that just grew big enough to assume the characteristics of a nuclear bomb. Or a easy term for BC's to understand that the little fire that they sent the 1-ton to just got out of hand.

AH
Di'ncha have a moniker? Ab.

PARACHUTE ADAM, Socorro District, New Mexico State Forestry Office.

The person who named this one is obviously a flyfisherman.

K.

Your response to my post deserves a bit more thorough response than I can provide right now. Been rather busy, mostly with projects and day's-off cancellations. Had only 4.5 days off in June (though I got home most evenings). Can't figure out why the current California hot-spell has produced so few fires, except that perhaps people are being extra-cautious due to the well-publicized fire situation. I note that Hanford Fire Wx is suggesting a likelihood of dry lightning in the Sierras next couple of days.................... cumulus overtimus.....

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

P.S. I'm going to be the first on my block to own a $450 flashlight!! No, I'm not rich, but it's deductible, rather light and compact, produces 500 lumens, and will often save me a great deal of strain (I'm over 50............) by just shining the light over to the other side of the canyon to see if it is burned over there or not, versus walking over there............. And when the Shots (notice I capitalized it............) are wondering where those CDF Crews are that are supposed to be cutting toward them, I'll just give them a quick flash. When they recover their night vision, we'll just about be there.........

I take issue with the fact that Grayback Forestry has ceased to send out new crews this year. I hope the Grayback management seriously considered what they were doing when they adopted this approach.

When there is a fatality on a fire, do we stop fighting that fire?

More than a few good people are now wondering just what the hell they will do as they scramble for the phone and start calling around the country. People who were depending on jobs that have just disappeared, who invested their time and, in my case, missed a serious family obligation so I would be available to work. In the future, I hope Grayback Forestry considers the true number of people that policy decisions like this affect.

My best wishes to all those involved in this tragedy,
-Momentarily Displaced But Looking For Smoke

Also Seattle Times:
Less aggressive tactics stress safety...

Abs,

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that we're coming over. To
my knowledge there has been no formal request for there to be people sent
over there (not that I'm completely "in the know"). I do know that there
have been some phone calls made to check availability, "just in case". As
Mollysboy stated, last time we sent only IMT staff, & I'd have a guess that
is all we would send anyhow. 99% of wildland firefighting here is done by
volunteers, and while many (including me) would love the opportunity, the
practicality of it would preclude many from going. We don't have a "Red
Card" system like yours, so getting that in place would be a big enough
problem in the first place. Add to that the altitude of the current fire
operations - the highest point in Oz is under 8000ft & most of us are
coastal dwellers. Furthermore, you already have the resources of the US
military, yes they are committed but there is also the National Guard. The
big advantage is that it's winter here & from what I'm reading there are
many areas that are under extreme fire danger that removing local crews to
other fires will reduce the needed available resources. I don't think
you'll need the Aussies & Kiwi's en masse, but once again, if you want us,
we're more than happy to help!!

Cheers

OB
Sydney, Australia
(who's going to go jogging tonight "just in case"!!)

On June 29, Mike posted that he'd an article that the Aussies are coming. Didn't provide a link, but said it was CNN. Ab.

Fire names
A small fire occurred on a persons private property. By the time we arrived I believe most of it was out and I was at the far end mopping up when the property owners neighbor, who lived abt .25 down the road, and obviously had a few too many malt beverages in him, comes up to me and starts giving me the third degree. IE: do you know what your are doing? ...why are you wasting time squirting water, its obviously out ya *@&#! and on an on yadda yadda. He then walked down to where the IC was talking to the property owner (and responsible party for the fire) and gave him the same treatment. Finally he walked back to his place and plopped back down in his lawn chair to drain another cold one. A bit later when I was all loaded up waiting for the word to head home, the neighbors dog came running down the road toward me chasing a ball and the neighbor was chasing the dog hollering at him to come back. ...Now I was standing there and that ball was going to roll right by me...I could have easily stopped it, and I did consider it...but....naahhh. I just snickered to myself as I watched the neighbor stumble down the street chasing his dog. ..oh yea, the name of the fire (unofficial of course)....The Asshole Neighbor Fire.

pulaski