"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
July, 2002
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 07/31 |
Abs
These links should be interesting to the fire history buffs:
www.angelfire.com/mi2/gfmeteor/fires.htm
www.angelfire.com/mi2/gfmeteor/evidence.htm#top
SITL
Comets? Astroids? Great Fires of 1871? Strange.... Ab. |
| 07/31 |
PBY photos:
These photos are from Marcia Shorter, a recreational boater on
Roosevelt Lake who was in the right place at the right time. PBY is a
belly-scoop air tanker on contract with the Washington State DNR.
I hope to have some killer shots of the Chelan fire coming you way
soon.
J.Foster, Highlands 26.
Nice action shots. I put them on AirTankers
6 photo page. Ab. |
| 07/31 |
T-123 Memorial Photos:
I found these pictures of PB4Y-2 Tanker 123 and thought you would like
to add them to your other photos of Air Tankers and list them as In Memory
of PB4Y-2 T-123 as you did with the C-130A T-130.
Jerry, an Air Tanker Buff.
Thanks Jerry. I put them on the bottom of AirTankers
5 photo page. Ab. |
| 07/31 |
Fireronin,
This issue on mandatory retirement age and minimum entry age and its
effects
on people coming into our workforce as permanent employees has been
debated
on this site more than once. I for one do not want to lose my fire
retirement, which seems to be a possibility if the feds allow those over
the
37 to sign away firefighter retirement (young vigorous workforce, etc.). I
believe that there are plenty of secondary fire positions out there for
those people who are over 37 and just now trying to get a permanent
position. These positions include dispatchers, warehouse, some fire crew
supervisor positions, some helicopter managers, and a myriad of others.
None of these jobs preclude anyone from working on the fireline as a
single
resource type in any position they are qualified for. These secondary
positions allow those with primary coverage to continue with firefighter
retirement and allows those without coverage to work also under regular
FERS
retirement. The only requirement some of these have is prior line fire
experience, which in my agency is one 90 day season in a primary position.
With the number of both Primary and Secondary positions that are becoming
available from the National Fire Plan, finding one of these positions
should
not be difficult. To get a one of these jobs a potential employee need
only
be flexible about the position and location. If they are intent only on a
specific position on a specific Forest or District they may well be
disappointed.
Just another perspective.......
lvcdog |
| 07/31 |
more info on the helicopter accident in CO at; www.thedenverchannel.com
playnwfire |
| 07/31 |
Readers we're getting questions from the public as well as ff family
members about the Southern Oregon Fires.
Let's take the Biscuit Complex as an example, since M and others have
asked. Here's how to start to research a fire:
Here's wildlandfire.com's list of all fires this season with website info
by state:
http://www.wildlandfire.com/arc/firelinks02.htm
Here's the Biscuit Complex website from that page
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/siskiyou/biscuitcomplex.html
New vicinity map (yesterday) for the fire from the Siskiyou page
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/siskiyou/vicinity30.jpg
(You can also go to the sites at the top of the state listings including
the ODF site that sometimes have other links and info.)
Southern Oregon Fire Weather Forecast (Red Flag means watchout for wind,
etc)
Today's
http://nimbo.wrh.noaa.gov/Medford/PDXFWFMFR.html
Siskiyou Fire Weather links page
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/siskiyou/fire_weather.html
Wildfire news search engine on our site, takes 15 sec to load
Lots of articles on Oregon fires
http://www.wildlandfire.com/news.htm
If you really want to get into it, you can go to our Links
page under News and look at situation reports by Geographic Area
(GACC). If you go on down to Weather, you can check NOAA Satellite images
for infrared and smoke patterns. If you go to Geographic, you can check
the GeoMac site for topography and fire perimeter. Sometimes you can luck
into extra photos of large fires on the Incident Management Team websites.
The list of Team sites are linked under Federal
Pages on the Links page.
Just a few ideas for people lookin' and hopefully save answerin' a lot of
e-mails. Ab. |
| 07/31 |
Red Army Wife:
These house are just material things you're right there, but some people
have spent their entire lives working for these homes. You should not view
them as material, but as someone's life work. I've been lucky enough to
only have to let one house burn in 8 years of fire. It also doesn't matter
if it's a small trashy trailer or a multi million dollar home, it's the
fact that it is SOMEONES HOME and we should do everything we can to save
them.
We're not wildland firefighters anymore, we're interface firefighters.
Just about everything that breaks 100 acres is threatening some sort of
structure.
The meat |
| 07/31 |
Given the fire behavior, etc, I want to remind us...
COMMON DENOMINATORS OF FIRE BEHAVIOR ON TRAGEDY FIRES
Five common denominators that contribute to accidents/incidents have
been identified through studies
of tragedy fires. It is important for firefighters to readily recognize
the following common denominators so that future
tragedies can be prevented:
- Most incidents happen on smaller fires or on isolated portions of
larger fires.
- Most fires are innocent in appearance before unexpected shifts in
wind direction and/or speed results in flare-ups or extreme fire
behavior. In some cases, tragedies occur in the mopup stage.
- Flare-ups generally occur in deceptively light fuels, such as grass
and light brush.
- Fires run uphill surprisingly fast in chimneys, saddles, gullies,
and on steep slopes.
- Some suppression tools, such as helicopters or airtankers, can
adversely affect fire behavior.
The blasts of air from low-flying helicopters and airtankers have been
known to cause flare-ups.
For firefighter safety tips, go to www.nifc.gov/sixminutes/s_six_minutes.asp.
Todd |
| 07/31 |
Northzone5,
I have different Japanese interpretation of ronin e.g.. Samurai whose
master has been outcast or assassinated. Rogue samurai. But your
interpretation is not so far off. 18 years FF. Now ex FF. Outside the
Fedfire system looking in. Pot stirrer? Yeah...but not just a potstirrer.
I make a living now recognizing corporate inefficiency and fraud. I saw
the Enron thing over 3 years ago. Worldcom was obvious by then too. I am
slowly putting check marks along side the names of over 200 major
companies that I recognized quite a while ago as "playing fast and
loose" with their books. I wonder why it was so easy to see from the
outside when even mid level managers did not have a clue?
Ab,
Sorry I struck a nerve. In retrospect I see how it appears to be tossing
rocks. I am sure lots of federal fire professionals have worked long and
hard to provide the fire protection plan we now have. >From the outside
looking in it still appears to be patched together and far less integrated
than such a vital service should be. The efficiency of multiple
bureaucracies attempting to coordinate with each other while each ones'
bean counters attempt to shift "fire dollars" into non fire
related programs as much as possible appears, from the outside, wasteful
and dangerous. For Gods sake, most fedfire agencies don't even recognize
experienced firefighters as professionals. It appears from the outside
that a lot of thought has gone into a long series of mitigating programs
rather than an integrated fire suppression effort. Having said that.. what
exists now does pretty well with the resources they have. My main issue
with the age thing is that there appears to be at least a
"decade" of experience being wasted by the current age
restrictions. If they are being recruited as ADs successfully and
integrated into the fire management effort then that issue is moot.
Regardless I don't advocate 50 year old FFs being "recruited"
for permanent positions.
I think the "news agencies" including CBS have discovered
that they get much more interesting stories if they look further than the
"media handlers" provided by federal agencies in response to
requests for interviews and information. The "pertinent
information" they receive from those sources tends to be pretty
"dry" and is often provided simultaneously to all the media. For
better or worse as wildfire has become a "better story" they are
going further and further beyond the "normal channels" for their
stories. I think if you look closely you will see that they often feature
some of the same issues discussed on this forum shortly after they are
posted. Hmmm.
Fireronin |
| 07/31 |
M asked if the fires would burn into CA? They already have! The Florence
and Sour Biscuit are approaching 200,000 acres as of Tuesday night. They
are less than 5 % contained and current plans are to backfire the two to
make one fire, they are less than 2 miles apart. They have 27 dozers
making a 30 mile fire line. Some line is on the power line corridors
because they are a fire break as it is. Most people are on a 48,24 or 30
minute evacuation order. Houses and mail boxes are flagged with blue
ribbon as being indefensible. One wildlife rescue is hauling away 10 +
tigers in horse trailers! The fires are 3 miles from the towns. We have
one truck on that fire and one on the Timbered Rock Fire. It is being
described as hellacious fire behavior. Safety Zones have been used many
times. Unbelievable flame lengths and it doubles in size every 24 hours it
seems. The Timbered Rock is holding due to the weather inversion.
Keep safe and remember that a house is only a material thing.
Red Army Wife |
| 07/31 |
More memorial information courtesy of Redding.com 7/31/02:
"Meanwhile, in the Almanor Ranger District of the Lassen National
Forest,
where Engine 11 was based, friends and colleagues of the trio killed
made
plans to attend a memorial service for Self tonight.
The service will be held at 7 p.m. in the Westwood High School Gym, said
Rebeca Franco, a National Forest spokeswoman.
John Self's funeral will be held in Wynoma, Miss. A trust fund for his
family
has been established at the Plumas Bank in Westwood. Heather DePaolo's
funeral is
being planned in Buffalo, N.Y. — her hometown. Details of SteveOustad's
services
are not yet available.
I'm not sure if this is the same web site referred to in an earlier
"They Said" comment:
"Franco said the Forest Service is setting up a memorial Web site for
the three at www.R5.fed.us/lassen."
More heavy hearts for the helicopter pilot...
DG
Thanks DG. Ab.
|
| 07/31 |
No, not again!!!!!
Goodby G, we will miss you.
Fly with the angels!
6 |
| 07/31 |
Once again, sincere condolences to the family and friends of the heli
pilot who passed recently!
----------------------
any stats on the percentage of contract aircraft that have gone down this
year? contract vs agency
owned/maintained/operated?
re Fireronin ronin is an ancient term Japanese for an outcast Samurai is
this guy just a pot stirrer, an ex FF, or
some wannabe?
on a diff note: a 1st yr ground pounder is asking me for advice about how
to avoid FLEAS in fire camp.......... sounds like a wonderful topic to
introduce to They Said as a defuser, or maybe it would just open up a new
can of worms. (*L* I read the info on my dog's monthly flea stuff, not for
human use!)
Northzone5 |
| 07/31 |
Greetings and thank you for this great website.
When it comes to wildland fires, the United States is divided up into
several different regions. For example, Northern Idaho and Western Montana
are in Region 1.... Washington and Oregon are in region 6, I believe. I am
looking on the internet for a national map which shows these different
regions. Any suggestions?
Damian
www.nifc.gov/news/nicc.html
at bottom. Ab. |
| 07/30 |
So sorry to hear of the helicopter crash in CO. Too many deaths.
Condolences again. When will they end?
Wasn't there some question last year on the appropriateness of using helos
for mop up?
Jack V |
| 07/30 |
The "Pines Fire" is really rippin' here at Julien (hills e of
San Diego). I heard 13,000 acres. Can that be right? CDF is out in force
for structure protection identifying the keepers and the looooosers.
Sign
on SanDiego News is reporting:
After dispatching a force of 450 firefighters by Monday night, the
force was
augmented to nearly 1,400 on Tuesday. Firefighters attacked the fire this
morning
with 85 engines, 11 helicopters, nine air tankers, six bulldozers, and 31
fire crews.
CDF Engineer
That one is up on the current FIRES 2002
list. Link at the top of theysaid. Ab. |
| 07/30 |
Are Sour Biscuit and Shelly Creek fires going to burn into California?
Maybe they already did?
M |
| 07/30 |
Howdy All,
Been working hard here of late and have'nt had time to check the
postings, but I'll throw my hat into the ring on Inmate Crew usage. I have
worked with inmate Crews in the State of Utah and I have to agree with BC
Davis posting of 7/28. The "Fellas" as we called them were some
of the best Type 2 Crews I've had the privilege to work with. Skilled in
the Art of WF, in great shape to do the job, did'nt bitch and not one
discipline problem. Perhaps some of the other postings were correct in
their assessment as well, but speaking from experience, I agree with BC. I
say "Right On" to the inmate crews out there and the personnel
who are in charge of the Crews. Keep up the good work and hold your heads
up high !!! Perhaps some of the "naysayers" lack the experience
of working on fires with these Crews, but if you get the chance, talk to
some of these guys and gals and you'll find out their human beings just
like you and me." Paying their debt to society" ? I think so !!
Themac |
| 07/30 |
Fireronin,
I appreciate your desire to change the retirement and mea system, but I am
in that 50+ category and people our age who have worked in fire for many
years should be thinking about turning it over to the younger folks one of
these days soon. Along with experienced firefighters, many friends and
coworkers who have chosen to retire are working AD in various supportive
roles to transition the agency to younger folks. It is in the process of
happening.
Granted, we have deficits in staffing of STL and other mid- to upper-
level supervisors. On a whole, our work force is somewhat less
experienced. Ten years ago we could call on our captains whenever we
needed division group supervisors. Now we're lucky if captains are STL
trainees. It's the Bat Chiefs that are division group sup qualified.
If we changed the mea, would we pick up many more that are division group
supervisor qualified? I wonder. Let me point out that even if people in
current positions are not as qualified as in the past, the way the system
is set up, they still work within their capabilities and redcard quals. If
we're short sups, we pull crews off and let it burn.
As Ab said, we're doing our best to get folks trained both in the
classroom and on the job. Many (in R5) who retire continue to serve the
agencies as trainers and mentors and fill-in in other ways. It is my
opinion that we do not need to change retirement or MEA rules, simply
fight fire safely, continue to train and mentor those less experienced and
let the experience level rise. It may or may not take 10 years. Experience
depends on where you are, what's going on, who's sponsoring you and
supporting you. Some people see more fire and gain leadership skills
faster than others. (Some few never learn even with the classroom and OJT
we're dishing out.)
In my opinion, it would be beneficial if there were a few more bucks in
the budget to allow each of our upper level FMO type folks to have a
"shadow" so that when they retire there is someone to step into
their shoes. Don't know if that will happen, though.
Regarding this summer and shortages. I would venture to say that if we had
the same staffing levels as in the late 70s or early 80s, we would still
be short this summer. This summer fire is different, vegetation is
different, climate is different. Fire season started early and with a
vengeance. Already I see people stressed, stretched and tired and we still
have 2 months to go. Yup, this would have been a marathon year regardless,
even if staffing was at pre-RIF levels. Generally I feel that on the fires
I've been on we're doing our best to put safety first.
NorCal Tom |
| 07/30 |
Heartbreaking news, a helicopter working in Colorado's Grizzly Creek
area has crashed. It saddens me deeply to report the pilot did not
survive.
Condolences to family and friends.
I say enough! One life is way too many to lose.
PLEASE REMEMBER SAFETY IS NUMBER ONE! YOUR LOVED ONES AND FRIENDS WANT YOU
HOME ALIVE.
SOMETHINGS NEEDS TO CHANGE, TOPIC FOR ANOTHER TIME.
DriftSmoke
Here's a report: www.abcnews.go.com
Condolences. Ab. |
| 07/30 |
Ab,
Two nights ago the national news included a story on how the retirement of
experienced firefighters has left the US with too few "managers"
to safely put all the available firefighters on the fireline. Retired
"managers" were being called upon to come out of retirement and
Aussie "managers" are being "imported" to help
alleviate the shortage short term. No plans were suggested to solve this
shortage long term nor was mention made of any efforts to encourage the
experienced firefighters who are not eligible for permanent positions to
make themselves available. It went on to indicate that...over the next
decade we will need more and more experienced "managers" while
at the same time going through a period of accelerating retirement of
individuals that have the needed experience and skill.
While this shortage was entirely forseeable/predictable I have yet to see
indications that any preparations were made to prevent it when the
decision to implement the current hiring push for firefighters was made. I
appreciate our Australian counterparts helping us out of this fix,short
term, but I can't believe that the USFS, BLM, and BIA seriously consider
this "band aid" solution a responsible manner in which to
provide a long term fix by simply repeating it year after year. Has there
been any long term solutions proposed at the WO to this problem? Who would
I contact to discover this?
Maybe I am missing something or don't have my facts strait.
The facts as I understand them are:
1.We are entering a period of accelerated retirement of personnel with the
needed fire "manager" skills/qualifications.
2.During the forseeable future we will need more personnel with these
skills/qualifications due to the increased likelihood of a higher number
of difficult to suppress/contain wildfires due to drier/warmer weather
trends and an exponentially increasing urban interface.
3.The needed skills/qualifications take at least 10 years to acquire and
not enough "manager trainees" are anticipated having the needed
experience to fill the projected need for at least 10 years. There is no
safe manner to "accelerate" this qualification process since
actual experience is so key.
4. An untapped "pool" of folks with the needed experience is
currently ineligible for use due to current legislation which preclude
them from "permanent positions" if they are over age 37. While
they may be available as AD's it is unrealistic to expect them to accept
these positions of high responsibility at AD pay rates. It is equally
unrealistic to expect the USFS, BLM, or BIA to allow ADs to perform this
function regardless of skill, experience, or ability.
I am sure that there are folks in the "upper echelons" that are
smarter and better informed than I am but as hard as I look I can see no
indication that a long term fix is being pursued/considered. Essentially
they are "contracting out" these positions to the Aussies this
year. Is this a prelude to allowing future contracting of these positions
to US citizens? I suppose that would not require any additional
legislation other than a liability exemption similar to the one just
passed and would limit the financial burden to a year to year one rather
than one that must be budgeted for long term. That might work but just
seems like just a bigger "band aid" rather than a real solution
and makes me very uncomfortable. I believe that those with the lives of
firefighters in their hands should not be exempt from
liability/responsibility yet am certain that no private individual would
be willing to fill those positions without that caveat.
The new challenges presented in national wildfire suppression/control
remain largely unadressed. What we have now is a slow changing
policy/program designed for the situation which existed 50 years ago.
Similar to the vintage aircraft that have been modified for dropping fire
retardant rather than bombs it has a new mission which its' original
designers never even considered a possibility. And like those old aircraft
which are currently proving to be inadequate to the task at hand, a
cobbled together, patched up national fire suppression "plan" is
a strong potential killer of firefighters.
I have had some initial contact with CBS news and would like to be able to
pass on to them accurate information regarding the long term plans of the
USFS, BLM, and/or BIA on this subject. I would appreciate anyone that can
set my facts strait or provide some clue as to what solutions have been
considered. In the past I have too often watched the "media"
dish out inaccurate information to wish to participate in that
process...but since I am now involved I have to settle for just providing
the best info to them I possibly can. Can anyone help me do that?
Fireronin
Fireronin, it is clear you do not work within the fed fire system and
that you have an issue with the age restrictions placed on federal
firefighters. If you did work within the Forest Service, BLM, or National
Park Service, you would know that we are not working with a "cobbled
together, patched up national fire suppression plan", but rather a
carefully crafted and thought out plan that is the result of vast
experience and countless dedicated hours on the part of fire
professionals. Professionals at all levels have been considering and
working on the staffing issues you raise for several years now and have a
number of mitigating programs in place, at least in R5.
One of our problems is that when firefighters hit 50, more than a few are
tempted by the AD positions they see out there. In these positions, they
can make 1/3 again as much money and not have to deal with the paperwork
inherent in their regular Fed job. And I can assure you, many ADs are
being hired as trainers of new people, as engine captains, as ICtype3 and
some are even used as fill in as FMOs on districts.
As far as the media goes, if CBS news is really interested, they
should contact the people that can answer their questions directly.
Ab.
|
| 07/30 |
FireBill (RE: Guidelines for Disengagement),
You can find more information on the FS intranet for the Okanogan and
Wenatchee National Forests FSWEB. Sorry, no outside link, but if someone
wants to contact me through Ab's, I can see what I can do to send someone
a cd of it.
fsweb.f8.r6.fs.fed.us
Off the Oka/Wen FSWEB click on "Fire Vision" on the left frame.
AC Rookie |
| 07/30 |
Ab(s),
Reading Cache Queen's comments as well as DW's, I have a few of my own.
Removing just the "small brush, slash and understory" will help
to keep fires from crowning when the ignition source is nearby but not
from a rapidly moving fire front. 90 plus years of fire suppression has
contributed to millions of acres of forested lands that are choked with
vegetation, heavy down material and dead and dying stands. This is the
reality of today. Debates may be conducted that seek to blame this or that
for the situation we find ourselves in. However, we must deal with reality
and not blame.
Removing only "small brush, slash and understory" does not go
far enough to treat the problem. Thinning needs to include removal of
larger understory trees than just those less than 10-12 inches dbh. Turn
of the century photos portray open forests with little to no fuel ladders.
Most small trees and brush were killed through frequent light intensity
fires. 90 years of fire suppression has permitted numerous trees to grow
into the mid to upper canopy levels. Today, we are faced with many
forested areas that are dying from competition between trees, insect
attacks and shading out. As these trees die, they create snags, a
dangerous hazard to firefighters, and eventually increased down fuels.
Research has shown that the past 100 years has been wetter than normal. It
is being suggested that we are returning to a more normal, possibly below
normal, rainfall pattern. Our forests are too densely stocked to support
this over abundance of trees. Thinning is the most realistic method of
reducing stocking while reducing fuel ladders and fuel loadings. This is
not to suggest that thinning should remove the larger trees. Thinning
should concentrate on removing the smaller trees sizes; but, were needed,
some larger trees should also be removed until the desired stocking is
reached.
Commercial thinning combined with precommercial thinning and down fuels
cleanup would help to return forests to the more open conditions pictured
in the late 1800s to early 1900s. It would reduce our reliance on imported
timber, provide jobs, and reduce the cost of treatments. Lower treatment
costs would permit more acres to be treated each year with the limited
funds available. If any real headway is to be made in correcting this
problem, commercial thinning (logging) needs to be an integral part of the
mix.
As a long term R5 employee, I have prescribed, within numerous
constraints, thousands of acres of this treatment method. Fuel ladders and
down fuels were removed while the bigger trees were retained. It has been
tested by fire and works. I sincerely hope that we are provided the
opportunity to practice forestry that has been proven to work.
DAS |
| 07/30 |
DV
If you use the incident website on the McNally fire you can check the
updated maps such as fire progression and road closures (currently posted
daily). So go to the following link and click on Maps:
www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequioa/incident/McNalley.html
Also the major fires on the map are as follows:
North of the fire are 1977- Bonita Fire and 1975- Flat Fire
(I believe those are the names-the years are correct)
East of the fire is 2000- Manter Fire
The most recent South large fire is the 1990 Stormy Fire
Can't answer any of the fuels questions...
GISgirl |
| 07/30 |
Abs,
Keeping you up to date from downunder.
Sad to hear the news about the rollover & deaths.
All the best to everyone.
OB
-------------------------------------
From: NSW Rural Fire Service
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2002 5:00 PM
Subject: Ministerial Press Release: NSW Firefighting Force Heading for USA
NSW Firefighters will lead a crack firefighting force heading to the
United States next week to help fight the country's worst fires in half a
century.
US President George W Bush will tonight officially sign a bill from
Congress granting immunity from prosecution for Australian firefighters to
join the firefighting effort in America. A formal request to Australian
authorities will follow.
"In response, NSW will send the strongest contingent of 50
firefighters out of the expected Australian and New Zealand force of
110," Mr Debus said.
"The fire situation in the US is the worst that authorities have
faced for more than 50 years. Hundreds of homes have already been lost in
the flames and thousands more are threatened.
"These fires have been raging for several months and the official US
bushfire season is only just beginning.
"The call-up of our firefighters is testament to their high levels of
skill, training and expertise as seen during our own most recent bushfire
crisis over Christmas and New Year.
"We should all be proud that our firefighters have earned such
international recognition and respect."
The NSW Rural Fire Service will send 20 firefighters, National Parks and
Wildlife Service another 15 and NSW State Forests also will send 15.
Minister for Forestry, Kim Yeadon said that a State Forests senior
firefighter, who last week flew to the United States to assess the
situation, has confirmed the need for Australian firefighters to assist in
the effort.
"A NSW State Forests officer will act as an international liaison for
the Australian contingent," Mr. Yeadon said.
"The Forestry Officer has reported that the situation is extremely
serious and we should lend a hand as soon as possible.
"NSW firefighters will be on their tour of duty for up to two months
and are expected to leave as early as next week, following rigorous
medical assessment and extensive briefings.
NSW Rural Fire Service Commissioner, Phil Koperberg said the force would
report to the National Inter-agency Fire Centre, the body coordinating
much of the US firefighting effort.
"They will be deployed primarily as fire-ground supervisors and
aviation specialists," Commissioner Koperberg said. |
| 07/29 |
Here is one of the pages of the McNally Fire website www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequoia
near the Giant Sequoias. Look at the fire history. I wonder when those old
fires burned if the fuels were small, or if there was lots of brush and
small trees like today. Someone said the danger is that the crowns of the
trees will burn. Is that a danger because the groves are down in the
valleys with fire on the ridges or because of ladder fuels? I will have to
go look after the fires are over.
Another good page Thinning
project shows how little damage was done by the fire in areas that
were thinned. I wish we had the freedom to do this without so many
roadblocks to the process. It makes sense.
I wish there were more websites for California fires. If anyone knows of
other photos of how fire acted in thinned areas, please let me know. I saw
the link that k or kelly provided.
DV
The R5 web is not quite up to par this fire season, but you could check
the Wild Fires 2002 list which is up to
date. Ab. |
| 07/29 |
Hi
So sorry to hear of more firefighters deaths. Prayers for the familys and
the injured. Hope they will be well soon. Please be safe out there.
Kat |
| 07/29 |
I saw in another engine a few days ago a pocket card I think was
entitled "Guidelines for Disengagement" but the guy didn't have
a spare. Anyone know what I'm talking about, or where I can get one?
Look Up, Look Down, Look Around,
FireBill |
| 07/29 |
I felt this poem appropriate and hope you publish it on your site in
memory of those who
have lost their lives doing what they loved to do, fighting wildland
fires. Let us send them
our prayers down that road, for they are going to a better place to live.
Nancy
Nancy, we can't publish it because of copyright laws, but the
thoughts are nice. Ab. |
| 07/29 |
Info on those lost and those surviving, condolences, info on the
investigation and
on future public memorial services.
More details on the rollover
www.redding.com
News release of condolences regarding the loss of firefighters on the
Lassen engine
Lassen National Park
website. The file is in pdf, but is small. Memorial information
will be coming out of this website we have been told.
Good job, Abs. We appreciate your efforts at keeping the wildland fire
community
appraised of what is happening.
Remain vigilant.
Original Firescribe |
| 07/29 |
AB:
Found this story this morning in Denver Post about the Air Tanker pilot
that was just behind T-123 at the Big Elk fire.
www.denverpost.com
CAFSman |
| 07/29 |
cache mtn fire (OR)
r-6 here. we got our buts kicked yesterday. evacs of 5,000 people and
loss of two homes. more winds expected today
hope we can hold our own
r-6 |
| 07/29 |
July 28th Another sad day in the fire service
Condolences to the family and friends of those who perished on the Stanza
fire engine rollover yesterday.
Best wishes for a quick recovery to those who were injured.
Northzone5 |
| 07/29 |
CDF Mike, you answered the question with your post.
NO firefighter clothing is meant to prevent injuries from "direct
contact" with flame. Your injury is an example. Protective clothing
is only meant to protect you from radiant heat and metabolic heat, and in
cases of structural clothing, exposure to conductive heat through the fire
atmosphere and through thermal barriers. Even ARFF proximity suits are
just that....PROXIMITY SUITS.... protection from the radiant heat and not
the actual flames.
Yes, you will counter....... but if I had a second layer?.... I
wouldn't have gotten the burn.
Maybe if you were a little closer with that second layer... it may have
gotten your airway singed and not just your arm. Thanks for us, you
didn't.
I love your posts even though I don't always agree with you (actually,
I agree with you alot of the time). It is nice to come here and just
discuss the issues that affect all of us firefighters. Its great when we
finally find the middle ground.
SoCalCapt |
| 07/28 |
Currently two fires burning on the Siskiyou NF and adjoining private
lands. Florence fire jumped the Illinois River to the south. Plume
dominated fire currently 50,000 acres, burning S-SW. Sour-Biscuit wind
driven, 17,000 acres, burning N-NW. Agencies think two fires will burn
thru the Kalmiopsis Wilderness and join near somewhere in the middle of
the wilderness. Currently constructing a 30+ mile dozer line along main
ridge west of Cave Junction as last ditch attempt to stop this mega fire.
If this line fails, fire will be on Illinois Valley floor within 2-7 days.
Evacuation plans ready to implement for entire Illinois Valley area.
20,000+ people. Town of Selma and surrounding area in immediate danger
within next 24 hours. One historic lookout lost and fate of boy scout
ranch on Illinois River and historic guard station unknown at this time.
Please be safe out there my friends!!
Mellie, I await your arrival with bated (or baited) breath.
Firehorse |
| 07/28 |
Mollysboy,
Thanks for the correction. I must've gotten my wires crossed between the
dawning of the Age of Aquarius and the rising of the Phoenix. It happens
to
all of us at one time or another. Its some good reading.
SoCalCapt |
| 07/28 |
"I personally helped compile a list of litigators in Idaho holding
thinning and reductions projects up and found that less than 3% were
subject to injunctions." The lack of information in that statistic
speaks legion. It fails to say what percentage were appealed, or
litigated. It also fails to include any mention of what percentage of
timber harvest projects have been appealed, litigated, or subject to
injunction. How many million of Federal (taxpayer) dollars per year are
tied up in NEPA appeals or litigation?
Here is something else to consider. Why did Sen. Daschle need to have
legislation to eliminate these projects from NEPA when he had already cut
a deal with the Sierra Club? Because other environmental groups would have
tied up these project in appeals and litigation. If the compromise had
been as good as everyone said it was it should be able to stand up to the
NEPA process without undue delay. This just verifies that the process has
become corrupted.
It is also enlightening to note that the Black Hills portion of the
legislation was passed by slipping it into a unrelated bill, that Sen.
Daschle did not want debate on the subject.
Here is the Sierra Club trying to back-pedal after getting caught with
their pant down. www.sierraclub.org/logging/fires_july26.asp
Sen. Daschle's website is strangely silent on the subject. http://daschle.senate.gov/
6 |
| 07/28 |
Con crews: Pro or con? (Sorry bad humor)
To BC Davis, I tip my helmet to you it probably is some big job you have.
Firewhirl:
I can tell you why the con crews are used at least in my part of the
world.
The state inmates are brought in to fill jobs in base camp, cooking,
cleaning, garbage and other chores. In my opinion I've had much better
food
from inmate cooks than about 1/2 or better of all the private kitchen
wagons. They seem to have more concern and pride with their meals, only
the
heads of the private crews seem to have this care.
the others are just there to get a paycheck.
As for inmates on the line.. lets think about this having them (con crews)
on
the line makes more sense economically and provides us not incarcerated
are
free for IA.
Also it's said in my state law and probably as well as the fed rules and
regs that the cost has to be kept down.
Not to mention you said "They should do their time, in jail, until
their
debt to society is paid."
The main point is repaying the debt to society here, they are doing it in
a
couple ways: cheap labor, team work, self respect, pride in knowing that
they are doing a needed job paying back to society, these men and women
are
typically close to being released and This can and probably helps the crew
members obtain a good work ethic.
It's just my thoughts.
mnm561 |
| 07/28 |
I've always considered this site to be for all wildland firefighters,
regardless of agency, so the recent heartfelt "I wish CDF had
something as fine as this" is a bit of a non-sequitur. As to the CDF
policy of requiring nomex pants over uniform pants and sleeve liners, yes,
it adds a bit to the heat load. But since we train in the same gear, our
heat acclimation is presumably that much more thorough. I initially
resisted the extra burden of the sleeve liners, but shortly after it was
instituted I happened to be on a fire in Ventura County wearing an illegal
nomex shirt without sleeve liner. In light-to-medium fuels we had just cut
a line that we were firing from. For the briefest moment a flame licked at
my arm just below where my short-sleeve t-shirt sleeve ended. I ended up
with a nasty burn about the size of a silver dollar. This is from probably
only a one-second direct flame contact. Subsequent numerous cases of flame
impingement have caused me no burn injury at all. I am an absolute
believer in the two-layer concept. In fact the case mentioned above is the
ONLY burn I have received in over thirty years of wildland firefighting.
With the exception of some moderate hand-burns due to my all-too-frequent
failure to wear my gloves......................
CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande |
| 07/28 |
For those that don't think NEPA has been abused in environmental law
suits, the attached is good reading.
www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/kstrassel/?id=110001970
CW |
| 07/28 |
K.
I have a hard time believing that politicians will able to effectively
orchestrate any kind of productive or
"reasonable" thinning of the national forests. It seems the
money will end up in someones pockets, most likely the
near bankrupt (sarcasm included) logging companies. Its very easy for
everyone to point the finger at the
enviros and accuse them of stonewalling the process when in reality people
who live on the fringe of these
"wildlands" often dont take steps to create defensible space
around their homes and then blame the system after
their inevitable destruction. Im going to have to disagree with Cache
Queen on this one. I think the less political
the issue the more the "right thing" will get done.
Cuz |
| 07/28 |
May our thoughts and prayers be with our brothers and sisters who have
been
lost this year.
Rich, it was pretty low to take a jab at one of the newer folks at
"They
Said". Those of us that have been around awhile know how important it
is to
hear other peoples views and make up our own minds. He had a valid
question
and deserves some answers from all sides. You gave your answer and I agree
the Kelly York story is a horrible thing. Don't cloud his or her mind by
making them think they are a newbie and don't know anything. Give them a
chance, who knows, they may be the next Chief of your department someday
and
talking down to you for you arrogance.
Here's my view as being a FS Wildland Firefighter for two decades. If I
was
involved in a burnover, I'd be the first one to say double layering is the
way to go. If I was involved in a heat stress emergency, I'd be saying
single layers are the way to go. There have been some pretty good studies
done pointing towards my side... are there any that have been done on your
side?
My thoughts are: I have a whole lot better chance of being involved in a
heat stress emergency than I do of being in an entrapment. I learned good
skills from the "Old Dinosaurs" that taught me the 10, 18, and
LCES and
agree with SoCalCapt.
Here's a link that helps to exlain my views... It's an investigation about
several heat related injuries that affected a certain CA fire organization
on a seemingly small fire. This isn't a rare occasion, I see folks in
yellow
and orange pants being taken off the hill all the time:
www.dhs.ca.gov/ohb/OHSEP/FACE/97CA010.htm
Please note the expert references it has made to USFS studies on heat
injuries as well as reference to Project Aquarius from the Aussies.
..."the United States Forest Service (USFS). The USFS does not make
recommendations about the amount of time which should be spent at work and
rest for specific temperature-humidity combinations, nor do they give an
absolute temperature (environmental or individual body core) above which
work should be stopped. The USFS does state that at a temperature of 98
degrees F and 30% relative humidity, the conditions existing at the time
of
the incident, that "only heat acclimated individuals can work safely
for
extended periods."
"The firefighters at this incident were wearing two layers of
clothing;
undershirt and dungarees under NOMEX shirt and pants. For a workload of
450
kcal/hour, two layers of clothing, and a WBGT of 80.1 degrees F, ACGIH,
NIOSH, and OSHA all recommend that workers spend 30 minutes resting for
every 30 minutes working." They actually sent 2 hours working and a
15
minute break. Now calculate that same period with single layers... whats
the
outcome?
Here's my goal.... Have MTDC and CDF jointly produce a study. After the
study and recommendations... all agencies implement them. No politics, no
agency bashing, no personal agendas... what do you think?
Rogue Rivers |
| 07/28 |
The information officer on the Stanza Fire just called with the
following information for the theysaid community:
The engine that rolled over was from the Lassen National Forest, based
out of Chester.
Those who perished were
Steven Oustad, 51 of Westwood CA
Heather DePaolo, 29 of Redding
John Self, 19 of Susanville
The two who were injured and are at Mercy Medical in Redding are
Alex Glover, 19 of Susanville
Ryan Smith, 20 of Susanville
The unofficial prognosis for the survivors looks good. We will post
memorial service info when it becomes available. It is unknown right now
exactly what happened. The Fire News articles
have some information from the PIOs.
Ab.
|
| 07/28 |
I have heard about the accident through gossip, are there any news
stories or
links as to what exactly happened??
-fire killer |
| 07/28 |
Here is a CNN story on the recent tragedy on the Klamath fire: Klamath
fire I knew the acting captain on that engine. He was a damn good fireman,
Had a great sense of humor, and he was the kind of friend you could depend
on. Steve was a stand up guy. He will be missed by all that knew him.
-Former Almanor guy-
Former, I wasn't able to make your link work. Stories are beginning to
show up on the FireNews page. Readers, see my
post above. Ab. |
| 07/28 |
Hi Ab!
WOW!! that's about all I can say after the Tanker 123 crash and now the
news this morning regarding one our own Engines going down in a rollover
on the Klamath... It's never easy when you hear about people you know or
had the pleasure of knowing... I have a few good trinkets from the crew of
Tanker 123 and even have a few pics of the pilot with his Tanker.. I will
send the pic once I get it scanned..
To those who died on the Engine this morning, My heart and Prayers go
out to those on the other crews and to their families and children, etc...
MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL and May God help those 2 others survive. Please keep
us posted on when the services for those folks will be held...
To all of you out there involved in the firefighting whether red,
green, white, etc it doesn't matter whether you fight from the ground, the
air, up in the lookouts, or behind the consoles, you all have hearts and
souls of Gold and you all are truly UNSUNG HEROES.. You never get the
credit that all you deserve... I do hope that the tragedies that have
occurred recently begin to dwindle down soon.. Is it me or has there been
a lot of fatalities this fire season?
My condolences to the families, friends, coworkers, etc... of those who
died this morning and to those who have died giving it their all and
fighting the fight...
May you all Stay Safe and GOD BLESS,
C'More Illusions |
| 07/28 |
ANY CREDIBLE INFORMATION OUT THERE ON THE USFS LASSEN ENGINE OVER THE
SIDE ON ONE OF THE KNF FIRES EARLY THIS MORNING? WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT
CASUALTIES AMOUNTED TO 3 FF FATALITIES AND 2 SERIOUS INJURIES.
BAD NEWS. PRAYING FOR THE FAMILIES.
LB |
| 07/28 |
BC Davis,
My problem with inmate crews has nothing to do with cost, or with how
well an inmate crew does/doesen't perform. Furthermore, I treat all humans
I meet with respect until they prove otherwise. As for your treatment when
in fire camp, how to you expect free people who you are taking assignments
and jobs from to treat you? (You in general referring to the entire crew.)
My problem is this: I am a free citizen, I've invested the time and
money to get trained and prepared myself for a job that I am waiting to be
called on to perform. The fact that incarcerated individuals are out there
right now performing that job angers me greatly. As meko9 said "aced
out of work by criminals". I don't believe it could be said in a
better way. Try this in most other professions and see what would happen!
LOL! Why should it be any different with wildland fire? I truly can't
understand why this is allowed to go on. Free citizens that contribute to
society (again see mako9's posting) should, without a question, be given
preference over incarcerated individuals. It's a moral question, and hits
home especially hard when you are not working. They should do their time,
in jail, until their debt to society is paid.
firewhirl |
| 07/28 |
I find it funny that as soon as someone challenges
anybody in the logging industry, people come out of
the woodwork (no pun intended) to defend it. I think
that is a natural by-product of getting laid off en
masse and having to retrain for other jobs close to
the industry such as wildland fire. Its no wonder
that everyone will jump into the "cut-it" camp simply
because this is what will employ hundreds if not
thousands of workers laid off for what they were
originally doing for the forest products companies. I
for one know that environmentalists/conservationists
didn't abuse NEPA (a common misnomer and an excuse of
everyone challenging conservationist thinkers) because
I personally helped compile a list of litigators in
Idaho holding thinning and reductions projects up and
found that less than 3% were subject to injunctions.
Its always easy to place the blame on one group but
the reality is that there might be a better way to
resolve our fuels problem than cut board feet of
timber.
Gfire |
| 07/28 |
Re: Rich, when he said today, "This is a quality site, I wish CDF
had something as fine as this."
Well Rich, CDF as an organization may not, but all CDF employees who
chose to participate or lurk here do!
Original Ab. |
| 07/28 |
Rich,
I did watch the Kelly York Story- very moving. And in case you didn't
notice, I wasn't attacking the CDF policy- I was actually praising it
and wondering why other agencies haven't adopted similar measures.
Moreover, when I ask questions or challenge policies here on TheySaid,
I'm doing so to learn something new or to express a genuine concern i
harbor. And when people respond, I listen. In fact, opening my mouth
here on TheySaid has been highly educational- ex Mollysboy's "Project
Aquarius" post (how else would I ever hear about obscure Australian
heat
stress research). Nonetheless, my previous postings generated a lot of
animosity, but I now know more and am better off for having posted them-
my concerns have been addressed.
And one last thing, there is a reason I joined CDF. Despite my
questioning, I think that the state of California treats their fire
fighters with a high level of respect, thanks in great part to the
presence of the union. No agency is utopia, but i am happy and proud
to wear the CDF badge.
-CDF Convert |
| 07/28 |
Most Federal land management agencies have a legislative mandate for
multiple use. While wilderness is an important component, so is timber
harvest. A lodgepole clearcut reduces the fire hazard and allows for
natural regeneration. Same with a commercial shelterwood cut in ponderosa.
These harvests can be conducted in such a manner to treat the slash so
that it will not be a fire hazards. Some fuel profiles will require
biomass reduction through force account or service contracts. The point is
that there needs to be a mix of tools in the land managers toolbox and
that needs to be as broad as possible to meet the management objectives.
Forest management has been hamstrung from abuse of NEPA by
preservationists and Daschle's bill is a backdoor acknowledgement of that.
An unintended consequence of this is a backlash from the motorized
recreational use organizations. One organization in my state has a bumper
sticker which states "Wilderness, land of NO uses!"
Multiple use may be a hard pill to swallow for some, but that is what
enabling legislation intended.
Right on Cache Queen!
6 |
| 07/28 |
Re: REASONABLE LOGGING
I’d like to throw my 2 cents worth into the question you asked Cache
Queen about what "Reasonable Logging" is. A couple of opening
statements about my perspective for the sake of clarity and so you don’t
over-do free speech with the "maybe" word to take a shot at my
integrity. I’ve been in the wood products business for awhile ( I’m
one of those guys that used to fight fire for USFS and wore jeans and a
khaki shirt that SoCalCapt talked about) That said, I’m not speaking for
forest products companies, just my own experience and observations as a
life long resident of rural America, a wildland firefighter, and a logger
of one sort or another over the years
I’m not sure what your historical research has been on these topics
but both thinning and logging on the same operation was common at one
time. At the same time it reduced much of the brush as fuel load as a
normal part of the logging operation. This defrayed the cost of thinning,
brushing and fuel load reduction to the USFS as they were generating
revenue rather than spending tax payer money for the same end result. If
you want to do your home work go back to the RARE 1 and RARE 2 reports
(1970s I think), and the SNEP (Sierra Nevada Ecological Report), mid
1990s. When you study these works and what they advocate, and think about
what was implemented, then consider the HEALTH OF OUR FORESTS today as
compared to when we scraped tried and proven techniques of forest
management for unknown ideas and lesser known agendas.
The Honorable Mouse |
| 07/28 |
Very shocked and saddened by the news this morning. Praying that there
will
be no more tragedies. We just sent an engine up that way and was telling
the captain about the narrow roads etc. on the Klamath although this could
happen anywhere. Please would someone post when/if a memorial will be
held?
Another Fed Fire Guy
When that info comes in, we will post it. Ab. |
| 07/28 |
I am saddened by the news this morning of the unfortunate accident in
the Klamath. Be it red or green these incidents affects all of us.
To CDF? Convert: The purpose of the liners in the nomex shirts is for 2
layers of protection from radiant heat. It has been proven over and over
again that 2 layers of clothing is better than one. Try asking your Eng.
or Captain about things you know nothing about before making false
accusations here. Don't believe it? Ask to watch The Kelly York Story.
To Ab. This is a quality site, I wish CDF had something as fine as this.
Rich
Rich, thanks for your post. I can attest to the fact that CDF Convert
is truly that. As for his questions, he's trying to gain wisdom, not
attack the agency. We are all looking for the safest alternatives and
dialog helps when different agencies have different policies and
regulations. We can learn from each other and from questions such as those
asked by CDF Convert and others. Ab. |
| 07/28 |
Prays are needed for all families and friends involved in this latest
tragedy. My heart aches......
Please be safe!
DriftSmoke |
| 07/28 |
The Aussies did a major study in the mid-90's on the physiology of
firefighting, called "Project Aquarius". They published all the
individual studies in a special edition of the "International Journal
of Wildland Fire" in 1997. But they also put together a
"user-friendly" publication for common folk titled "Safe
and Productive Bushfire Fighting with Hand Tools" in July 1996. Phil
Cheney at CSIRO may have an electronic version available.
In that writeup, they find that 2/3 of the heat that firefighters are
subjected to is metabolically generated, and only 1/3 comes from the fire.
Their advice is that fire PPE should "let heat out, not keep heat
out"! Most Aussies fight fire with a single layer jump suit, no
gloves and sleeves rolled up.
The USFS-designed shirts and trousers are designed to allow air flow,
which is critical for cooling; the Nomex material will give a fire fighter
20-30 seconds of protection from burns, enough time to get away from the
heat source, or deploy a shelter. Another important body cooling factor is
the head: ever hear the old saying that "if your feet are cold, put
on a hat"?? Some studies show that 20-30% of heat loss occurs through
the head. Cover it up, either with a knit hat, or with a face/neck shroud,
and you reduce the amount of heat loss that can occur. Great in Winter,
bad in fire season!
Structural firefighters go for complete body coverage, because of the
needs of their job, but only have to work for a max of 20 minutes before
their air supply runs out. Wildfire/Bushfire folks have to look at a much
longer work period, with the cumulative heat stress effects mounting up
over several days.
There are a growing number of reports of heat stress injuries and also
a fatality among firefighters going with double-layers and full-time use
of the face/neck shroud.
Looks like an area that needs some more study......?
Mollysboy |
| 07/28 |
This is for all of us who belong to the IAFF:
We need to help our federal brothers who fight fire that are still listed
as
Forestry Techs. The Biennial convention is coming up in Las Vegas Aug
11-16. Resolution 53 will be brought up on the floor for the IAFF to seek
legislation to reclassify firefighters that are currently classified as
forestry techs. This way they will be entitled to the same benefits that
other federal firefighters receive.
Also Resolution 54 asks the IAFF to seek legislation to change
firefighter's pay to portal to portal. I know some (maybe alot) of you may
not agree with some of the IAFF's viewpoints, but these two resolutions
affect ALL of us.
PLEASE ask your delegates to give a positive vote for these two important
resolutions.
Thank you,
Onelick
Hear! Hear! Ab. |
| 07/28 |
Steep country indeed. So sorry to hear of the losses; what a year.
k
Geomac:
stanza1.jpg
stanza2.jpg |
| 07/28 |
Ab-
So sorry to hear. We have been getting thick smoke from that fire for
days.
The roads are precarious and perhaps present a greater challenge than the
flames in this neck of the woods.
I know everyone is being as safe as they can be.
My heart aches for us. Prayers for the two in the hospital and loving arms
for family and close friends.
Mellie |
| 07/28 |
No details available, just heard of a USFS Fire Engine Rollover on the
STANZA fire in CA. Possibly three fatalities. Condolences to fire service
personnel, friends, and family. Have faith that there were survivors.
Learned that miracles are possible since miners' rescue in PA.
DG
I just spoke with the Information Officer on that fire who confirms
that there was a single vehicle rollover at about 0200 and that 3
firefighters have died. Two more are injured and have been transported to
the hospital. Condolences. I have great sadness at this news. The roads in
northern California around Happy Camp are small with many treacherous
curves. The terrain is very steep. Smoke is thick.
To all who are fighting fire, BE SAFE!
Ab. |
| 07/28 |
I'm with Cache Queen on this one. And I'm backing Daschle et al. What
they're proposing is not an end to all federal laws, nor a rape and
pillage disaster -- what they're proposing is a political move that
(finally!!) will bring the issues and dilemmas and problems to the
forefront, where discussion and negotiation may finally bring some sort
of solution.
Those who can't handle the mind-bending concept of "reasonable
logging"
or "thinning" and who recoil at the very IDEA of selling a
couple big
logs, well, gee. <shakes head> We assume when pilots fly that they
know
what they're doing. We assume when surgeons operate that they know what
they're doing. Why can't people assume for just a bit that maybe
foresters who happen to be employed by a federal agency know what
they're doing, too? The legions of biologists and hydrologists and
archaeologists and foresters out there might just possibly know what
they're doing, too, and perhaps it's possible that ecologically sound
forest management plans might include fuels experts along with the
plants-and-critters folks --- is it too much to ask that the forest
experts we employ could be granted just a little trust in who they are
and what they do?
For a few good examples of what thinning and burning looks like relative
to unlogged and unmanaged, check this:
www.pnw-team3.com
I have to stop now because I can smell soapbox.
k. |
| 07/28 |
to firewhirl and to meko 9
is your only experience with inmate fire fighters just with cdf? i run
a con crew with ndf and we do one hell of a job on fires. yes, the cost is
less then a free crew but the tax payers are getting more for their money
then you think.
i have been on free, type 2 crews for years. i would put the crews i
have run the last 2 seasons against any free crew i have been on. why do i
say this? my crew is disciplined, my crew is loyal, my crew is in
excellent shape and trained to do the job. yes my crew is full of bad
boys. but when you can take hard asses from prison and turn them into a
effective fire tool then you really have something. their motivation is
the attitude that they receive from folks like you. they want to prove to
everyone that even though they screwed up in life, they can make a
difference on a fire. i was at the martis fire outside of reno nv last
year. it was my first major fire with ndf. i was totally disgusted on how
we were looked upon. it was like we were the red headed step children. but
ya know what? on the fire line, we did our job. we were effective, safe
and had no injuries. we did just as much work ( if not more ) then other
crews. we make a difference. we are around when the kids go back to
school. we are around for floods, truck wrecks, or any other incident that
occurs.
dont sell con crews short. when you run into one, at least try to give
the crewboss some respect because he/she has a tough job. not dealing with
his or her crew but dealing with the attitudes of others.
BC Davis
ps, ab i need glasses and am too stupid right now to get them so excuse
the spelling |
| 07/28 |
DW:
No, not a spokesperson for the forest industry, just a lowly government
servant with a realistic viewpoint, as I sit looking out my living room
window at a P.pine forest regime that is no longer quite as resistant to
fire as it should be, as a result of insect infestation -- which has not
been mitigated by removal of the matchsticks -- large or small. I do admit
the term I used "REASONABLE LOGGING" certainly is and was open
for interpretation --- a WIDE one. In my perfect little world I'd like to
see, yes, thinning, coupled with what I guess a better term would be a
"selective cut"-- that is dictated by the forest habitat type
that is being managed.
Although, as a last word (at least for this post!) it appears that
management of resources has been replaced by management of appearances by
many folks.
Cache Queen |
| 07/28 |
I have waited a long time to see some great pics of waterdropping Hueys
and
other helicopters on the web, they are just few and far between and the
pictures are usually dark and not so good.. Your photos on the other hand
were wonderful and show the true work horse that these helicopters
are. The Cobra was kewl to see and I was wondering if that was one of Ron
Garlick's Cobra's? Keep up the great work the site is wonderful and keep
the helicopter photos coming.
Thanks again.
Mike D.
I don't think it was, but I am sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.
Ab. |
| 07/28 |
CDF Convert,
the Aussies did a study called Project Phoenix. It addressed the exact
issue of single versus double layer protection. CDF now uses double layer
bottom, top, and shroud. Fed folks use single layer. The question that has
been asked many a time and I'm not sure of the answer. The Aussies had
some answers...
It was found that the majority of injuries that had any relation to
clothing were predominantly HEAT STRESS related. Their finding was that
firefighter clothing was meant to provide protection from outside from
radiant heat and maximum protection from within from internal heat.
Clothing for wildland firefighters is meant to provide protection from
internal heat sources... Wildland firefighters are best protected by the
10, 18 and LCES, not from the clothing they wear. Old school wildland
firefighters used to wear levi's and a denim or khaki shirt.
A part of the study compared burn injuries to heat stress injuries. I'll
try to dig up the info and send it in to AB if someone doesn't beat me to
it and fire assignments allow..
Just my thoughts...
SoCalCapt |
| 07/28 |
From Firescribe, more on the deployment: www.oregonlive.com
and
All in the family on Hispanic contractors in Oregon: http://news.statesmanjournal.com |
| 07/28 |
Wasn't sure for a while, but I've got it now. I agreed and then
disagreed and then got confused about firewhirl's posts. But this last
one did it, when firewhirl mentioned taking 200 lbs of saran wrap on the
back of the neck from 10 feet up.
I nearly took a finger off like that one day on a fire in montana, and
it was just from 3 feet up. Those industrial commercial size rolls are
huge and heavy (and they have a razor edge blade on them, unlike what
you buy in the store.) I duct-taped the finger up and served about 800
ff's before I unwrapped the finger and dealt with it later. Saran wrap
is brutal, man, don't knock it till ya tried it.
Anyhow, back to firewhirl. Hook yourself a job with the caterers, kid,
or buy the equipment and do your own contracting for food. You already
have the background and the competition's less. Call OK in Washington
for starters, they always need help.
Why? One, you make a whole lot more money than firefighers. Two, cooks
can outbitch and outwhine firefighters any old day. Three, as long as
you wash your hands, you won't be endangering near as many lives in camp
as what you sound like you're capable of on the line. And four, you
might live longer.. ...
r6cooky |
| 07/28 |
Firehorse,
Get a grip! I'll visit next time already.
Mellie |
| 07/28 |
A note from National Geographic. Readers, if you haven't seen this,
here it is. Make sure the sound is turned on. Ab.
Dear Editors:
Every year over 100,000 wildfires break out across the U.S., and this
summer has seen the most destructive wildfires in Colorado and Arizona
history, consuming acres by the hundreds of thousands.
But have you ever considered who the men and women that battle these
fires are, what keeps them motivated against such formidable foes and why
they respond to the Fire Call?
Log onto NationalGeographic.com’s Fire Call as Idaho wildland
firefighter Norbert Schuster explains how beating back wildfires has
impacted his life. Listen as he reveals why he continues to fight these
life-threatening behemoths up to 14 hours a day, several months out of
every year. Poignantly, the squad boss recounts one of the most harrowing
days of his career.
For the entire full story, please visit: www.nationalgeographic.com/firecall.
Maxine Broderick
On Behalf of NationalGeographic.com |
| 07/27 |
Can someone tell me about the PPE discrepancies between CDF and other
agencies? If you haven't heard, CDF issues nomex shirts with cotton
lined sleeves, cotton lined nomex shrouds, and gauntlet style gloves.
This seems to make good sense. I know some people say all the extra gear
is too hot, but at the very least, the lined sleeves on the shirts seem
like an easy, safe innovation that will provide extra thermal protection
without making a life much hotter.
-CDF Convert |
| 07/27 |
CDF Mike,
Your remarks to firewhirl about inmates being cheap left out some very
important points. First of all 17 bucks per hour for a crew is reasonable
yes but don't forget each one of those guys cost the taxpayers 30-60k a
year to have incarcerated. that is $510,000 per year (probably on the low
side) for the 17,then add 50k for the capt, and 80k for the officers and
you get $640,000 per year per crew. that means that one crew is costing
us $1753.42 per day everyday (not including transport supplies etc.)
whether or not they are on fire. I as a taxpayer would much rather see a
law abiding citizen who is an asset to the tax base and not a hindrance
doing these duties on fire and on the prevention end. Those crews do have
a use that I can see and roadside brushing and trash pick-up, weed eating
along highways is a good job for them. I really don't appreciate the red
army always saying "inmates are cheap" when they have a negative
impact
on the tax base. they don't pay for housing, gas, utilities, food, and
anything else law-abiding citizens contribute to. They compete with
legitimate contractors for jobs (though it is illegal) look at all the
money firesafe councils are getting and how CDF is sneaking the inmates
in there to do the work, not bidding the work out and keeping alot of the
money in house (which is also illegal and don't say it doesn't happen cuz
I
know it does for a FACT) And to top it off a very small percentage even
stay in the business. I could go on and on but this is too tiresome and I
just wanted firewhirl and anyone else who's been aced out of work by
criminals to know there is someone on their side who knows what the
heffers don't want people to know.
meko9 |
| 07/27 |
Hey Cache Queen....
what exactly is REASONABLE LOGGING? I mean, illustrate for me the
difference between logging and thinning would you because, it sounds to me
like you feel that taking out trees such as say, P-Pine and Lodgepole are
warranted when these trees either resist most all but crowning fires or
need
them to germinate. Everyone knows that it is the small brush, slash and
understory that carries the fires and this would require THINNING..not
logging, k? Or maybe you are a spokesperson for the forest products
companies would would like to take all the large stuff and leave the
gasoline behind
DW |
| 07/27 |
Hey Firebabe! Welcome Home
Is "life off fire" getting to you yet? While everyone else
thinks you've
really lost it, it's only business as usual...
You started the fire in the fireplace - with a fusee.
You went to bed - and brought your clothes into bed with you and stuffed
them
down near your feet so they'll be warm in the morning.
You had to get back up and fire up the generator - just so you could get
some
sleep.
You got up to go to the bathroom - grapping the toilet paper out of your
gear
first.
What's with all that toilet paper out in the back yard?
The toast started burning while you were brushing your teeth with the
Gatorade - you had to backfire the kitchen to save the whole rest of the
house (good thing you had the drip torch handy).
After you mowed the lawn - you edged everything "to fireline
standards" with
your pulaski.
You started to water the lawn - but you've run out of hose for the
laterals.
That's nothing - you've ordered up more hose (and they're slinging it in
as
we speak).
You were supposed to just "prune" the shrubbery - not remove the
ladder fuels.
Why's the ladder leaning up against the roof?
Who keeps shutting off the gas to the house?
You've retrained the dog - instead of fetching her stick and bringing it
to
you, she has to take it into the green since the stick is "unburned
fuel".
Escape route flagging all the way down to the mailbox?
You've decorated the end of the neighbor's driveway with red flagging -
because it's just not defensible...
The Building Inspector stopped by wondering what you were going to be
building after the dozer gets done - you've explained that it's a
"safety
zone" (any idiot would know that the lawn's only suitable for a
deployment!).
The kids are asking for stuff again... - you explain that those needs for
additional resources should have been identified during their last
operational period and thus be requested in a more timely manner.
ps - good thing you're only back for a couple days at a time!
Stay Safe! "Kicks"
A couple of other ideas to enhance the nostalgic nature of this
post. For breakfast, make up a bunch of scrambled eggs, dye the eggs green
and gray (not sure how to get that gray effect), put 'em in the fridge
several hours, then remove and let stand in the sun in an area with plenty
'o flies prior to eating. Don't forget to make your lunch the day
before and freeze it overnight. Remove early the next morning, put it in a
plastic sack and tie it to your belt behind you, so's you have the
opportunity to sit on it frequently before enjoying at lunch time. Ab. |
| 07/27 |
CDF Mike,
Thank you for the info. on the economic side, I never realized it was so
inexpensive to field inmate crews. Economics drives politics I believe.
On a different note: Damned difficult dirty and dangerous duty is what I
would like. For years now I've stood for hours...yeah, sometimes12 or
16... in heat from 90 to 140 degrees, constantly bending and stooping,
lifting heavy objects, surrounded by sharp tools with workers using other
sharp tools at elbow's reach instead of 10 feet. Open flame and hot
objects all around me. Even an open vat of 350 degree oil nearby.
Althought there hasn't been any danger of a snag falling on me I have
taken a 200 lb. roll of saran wrap on the back of the neck from 10' above
me. I've also had my entire right hand 1st and 2nd degree burned. Numerous
cuts, but still have all my digits. I can't wear leather gloves or nomex,
although my kitchen boots are all leather and 8" high. You know what?
I'd rather do this outside for a couple more dollars per hour with
protective clothing and well trained crew mates at a reasonable distance
from me.
Sincerely,
firewhirl
I'm think'in I'd enjoy miss'in a few fires, rather than be behind
bars 'n fences between times. Though I'm pleased to have missed fire
whirl's experiences also. Ab. |
| 07/26 |
"firewhirl" wrote:
<<I'm sure it's been said before by many, but why the hell are there
inmate crews on duty
when a law abiding citizen like me who hasn't even had a traffic ticket in
10 years is working
some crappy fill-in job? They screwed up, why should they enjoy our
backcountry and
fighting fire? Let's keep them in the can where they were sentenced to be,
good behavior
or not. I know that sounds harsh, but it's their problem. Ah
politics.>>
Wow! Such bitterness! I never considered politics as being a factor.
Though there might be
something to that, I strongly suspect that economics is a more likely
reason. A 17-man or
woman Inmate-Firefighter Crew costs $17.00 per hour for the whole Crew,
plus wages for
the Crew Captain and Corrections Personnel. Much cheaper than a a Crew
staffed by free
people. What part of your agency's budget are you willing to cut in order
to pay for the huge
increase in funds needed to provide the equivalent firefighting power with
free staff, firewhirl?
And I am sure that "firewhirl" has absolutely no conception of
the conditions these Inmate
Firefighters work under. Though it has its moments, few would describe
their experience at
the end of the season as "enjoying the backcountry".
BTW - I haven't had a traffic ticket in nearly 10 years myself, and I
have to do very nearly
the same damned difficult dirty and dangerous duty myself. Shoulda stayed
in school. Maybe
it's not too late for you, firewhirl.
CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande |
| 07/26 |
Mellie,
I must bow before one much wiser and astute in the ways of the
political world than this lowly retired groundpounder. I am humbled in
your presence, although be it in my computer. I feel I have brought shame
to our friendship (even though you drove by my humble community on your
vacation last year and did not grace me with an audience!) and I beg
forgiveness. Because I am suffering such humiliation, I will report to the
nearest ICP morning briefing, at which time I will, before national TV,
throw myself upon my chrome-plated retirement pulaski. I beg your
forgiveness Mellie and can only hope and pray that I have not cast an
unpenetrable cloud over our relationship!
You have brought up some points that I had not considered. Well done as
usual Mellie.
Your humble servant, footstool and fan,
Firehorse |
| 07/26 |
Hi AB,
I have really enjoyed your web site the past two years, and feel it is
truely an asset for the fire fighting community. I have been involved with
fire since 1961 (as a summer time seasonal). During the off season I teach
science in a small community in Western Montana. With my experience in the
classroom I have been involved in teaching classes in firefighting. If
anyone is interested I have set up powerpoints for Standards for Survival.
Presently I am working on Units in S-290 Intermediate Wildland Fire
Behavior. So far I have Units 1 and Unit 7 done......I would certainly
share these with anyone to keep our fire fighters safe..
Thanks again for your great site.
Montana Griz
We'll probably get more requests for your kind of ppts as that kind of
training begins in the winter. Thanks for the offer. Please keep watching
theysaid to see when requests come in. We did put the ppts on another
server so there is space to store them if need be. Readers, dont'cha just
love this community? Ab. |
| 07/26 |
Donna, Dozer Support
Lima designates a Dozer Strike Team, Gulf designates a
Crew Strike Team, and Charlie designates an Engine Strike Team.
Rich
Thanks Rich, might as well add those to the Fire
Terms/Nicknames list even though we're supposed to use clear speak.
Ab. |
| 07/26 |
Some interesting posts on FamilySaid.
If you have a spouse, parent or sibling who would like to join in, invite
them to. Some good experience and information being shared and we all know
that most firefighters have a hard time with relationships. Ab. |
| 07/26 |
ranger ash, sorry havent seen any 212, classes yet but if you hear any
let me know and vice versa
p.s were getting our buts kicked here in oregon
r-6
sisters,ore
I think someone was looking last winter and didn't find anything. Our
ppt gurus are both away on fire. Ab. |
| 07/26 |
Hey 6, and andy s, david g, jessica a,
6: From 18-34 was a ski bum (and still am!) and worked nights as a line
cook, saute and grill work. Didn't get introduced to wildland fire till
this year.
andy s, david g, jessica a : start sending applications out. check the
jobs links here at wildlandfire.com. send out more applications. hope and
pray. then send out more applications. make sure you're around your phone
or pager. then send out more applications.
I understand we have lots of groundpounder rookie crew available, but
there are two points that bother me as a trained and tested rookie who
hasn't yet been called out:
1. See the posting below by IvansGirl on 7/23.
2. I'm sure it's been said before by many, but why the hell are there
inmate crews on duty when a law abiding citizen like me who hasn't even
had a traffic ticket in 10 years is working some crappy fill-in job? They
screwed up, why should they enjoy our backcountry and fighting fire? Let's
keep them in the can where they were sentenced to be, good behavior or
not. I know that sounds harsh, but it's their problem. Ah politics.
Thanks all for the recent great postings.
firewhirl
P.S. It's logical: if the rookies don't get out there will continue to
be a lack of experienced firefighters and leaders out there in the future. |
| 07/26 |
Ab...
RE: Daschle language.....things are heating up! Arizona is upset and
which state will be next? Oregon, Montana, and oh my goodness....could
California want their piece of the action too!
Politically someone had to take the first step in doing the right
thing! The swirl of emotions, comments, bashing...etc is just part of the
process that will take place over the next couple of weeks. Those (extreme
environmentalist) who are apposed to proper management of forest and
rangelands are in a frenzy to stop any additional states from joining in.
Long term of this means "Jobs in the Woods".
If you ask the people of Deadwood SD how they feel right now, they
would say that this should have been done a long time ago. They are now
faced with the second part of fire and thats the potential of flooding.
Their properties are even at greater risk now than ever before. The next
couple of weeks should be interesting on the political front.
r3firetaz |
| 07/26 |
Ab,
I wanted to thank the over 19 crews and hundreds of engines and overhead
from Minnesota stomping the beast in the west this year. Most of them are
the best available and always rise to the call. Although unable to join
the fight so far, I know they're doing me proud. Anybody got any tales of
these Minnesota characters?
CW |
| 07/26 |
dear sir,
This is a letter from many friends who are all interested in wildland fire
fighting, here in denver, colorado. we were inspired by the determination
and courage you guys show, and all the work you did to fight fires here in
colorado. thank you. we were wondering if you could send us some
information on how to get started as firefighters, like basic training,
and stuff like that. any information you could provide would be greatly
appreciated. thank you again for all the help.
always
andy s, david g, jessica a |
| 07/25 |
On 7/24 a shelter deployment occurred on the Winter/Toolbox Complex
(Forest Service jurisdiction). Following is a summation of the
information that is currently available:
The deployment occurred on the north side of the fire and involved one
20-person contract crew (Ferguson #53).
All 20 shelters were deployed.
17 crew members were transported to a hospital in Bend - 6 by ambulance
and 11 by van.
Some individuals were treated for minor burns and smoke inhalation, but
none required hospitalization.
All crew members returned to incident camp on 7/25.
The deployment site has been flagged, but the shelters were collected
and returned to incident camp.
A national Serious Accident Investigation Team has been activated.
Team Leader is Susan Giannettino, BLM Deputy State Director for
Resources for Idaho: Chief Investigator is Kathy Hull, BLM State Safety
Manager for Utah, Missoula Technology and Development Center is sending
Technical Specialists, and Forest and Fire Liaisons will be assigned.
The team will be in place by the evening of 7/25.
The OSHA area office is initiating an inspection of the incident.
Compliance Officer Alex Bedard will lead the inspection.
Feel free to contact me if you have questions.
Temple Tait-Ochs
Safety and Health Mgr, R6/PNW USDA FS
503-808-2626
ttaitochs@fs.fed.us |
| 07/25 |
Tahoe Terrie,
The R5 pages are still hit and miss for me. Getting to be really
frustrating.
Their up then their down. Sometimes I can get to them using a work-around,
sometimes not.
PC |
| 07/25 |
Abs,
Two articles from the Washington Times (7-24-02 & 7-25-02) about the
Dashman's change of heart:
www.washtimes.com/national/20020724-662627.htm
www.washtimes.com/national/20020725-22889.htm
SITL |
| 07/25 |
hi all,
listening to an additional dispatch a few minutes ago an heard ic ask
for a lema type and a gulf type strike team. in the recent past i've
also heard charlie type. what does this mean ?
thanks,
donna, dozer support |
| 07/25 |
Sorry firehorse, I'm weighing in with r3firetaz. I'm not furious about
the
Daschle fiasco, I'm ecstatic.......even if it's only one state now, it's
time someone was willing to stick their neck out enough to make the first
steps and perhaps pave the way for the rest of the West that is living in
the dying forests without the benefits of logging.
I've gone through my required education, coming away with my forestry
degree......granted, that was many years ago -- but the basics of multiple
use are still there, and on a personal note, as I am one that lives in the
"stupid" zone (i.e., interface) -- and am also AWARE of the
consequences, I
welcome the REASONABLE logging and thinning that needs to go hand in hand
with other fuel treatments. I guess I just don't understand what it is
that makes you so furious.....maybe I've missed the point. I do see that
the legislation at this time is just for one state -- but we can hope it
will start the ball rolling.
Cache Queen |
| 07/25 |
Hi Firehorse, m'dear!
Hey, I think Daschle did something, started something with his rider
that
needed to get started.
I take it you're viewing his action as a way he could support his
constituency
while sneaking out of having to deal with the issue. Maybe... Instead, I
think
he couldn't see any action coming from the Congress going the usual
routes,
and decided to put a "foot in the door" to crack the impasse.
The fact that he's
the majority leader of the Senate makes his foot even larger. As far as
party
goes, I can use the fact that he's a Democrat when I talk with
environmentalists
(extreme and otherwise) who need to be educated. If a Republican had done
this, it wouldn't carry the potential for changing the minds of Democratic
environmentalists, in my estimation.
I guess I still wish change in this country could occur more reasonably
and
gracefully with all people playing by the rules. The "pork"
stuff pisses me off...
as well as fire money designated by congress for FIRE going to other FS
areas and exorbitant cost pools. Oh well. Politics.
Hug to you, my friend!
Mellie |
| 07/25 |
From Firescribe:
Several with more details on the deployment:
www.bendbulletin.com
www.oregonlive.com/newsflash
Daschle perspective:
www.arizonarepublic.com |
| 07/25 |
Deployment on the Toolbox fire. Do not have many details yet, 17 to ST.
Charles Hospital in Bend Oregon.
OR FF
I just checked with the info officer on the team. Three people did not
go to the hospital. The 17 that did were treated and released and are back
in camp. Ab. |
| 07/25 |
Hi Ab,
You have probably heard that a 20 person crew had to deploy on the Tool
Box fire. Some to the hospital smoke inhalation and a few burns.
Stay safe.
kat
Thanks for the info Kat. I'll also check further. Hope all are well.
Ab. |
| 07/25 |
EMT,
That was a CDF Strike Team from the MMU on the cover of Firehouse
Magazine.
Capt. Emmett |
| 07/25 |
Hello Fellow Comrades & families
I am a New Zealand base Wildland Fire Fighter. Currently doing a study
course on fire. investigation. I would welcome corresponding with other
fire fighters in the field on any fire related subjects. I also would like
to hear from HotShot teams. One of my hobbies is collecting Patches from
different fire departments.
Our brigade is situated in central north island, Rangitikei Rural Fire
Service - our crew (15) members Our district is quite large and we work
with our sister station Kiotatia and urban brigade's Marton & Bulls.
We train weekly throughout the summer from October to April and then
fortnightly in the Winter April/October. During the winter months we have
theory exams and NZQA qualifications adding to our Red card
qualifications.
We have two engines, one turns into a Command Unit at and the other a
four wheel drive Hilux.
Currently, it is winter in NZ, but as August nears, so does our Spring
arrive. This year, our winter has not really been cold, more wet than
anything. The heavy laden moisture content will be a great start to our
fire season no doubt.
If anyone would like to correspond with me, it would be much
appreciated
Kind regards
Dianne |
| 07/25 |
JR,
I just stopped laughing my ass off for about an hour. I never was a
wildlands FF, but your ryhme hit home because I used to be an Infantry
squadleader. Thanks for the laugh, you brought back some good memories.
Riley |
| 07/25 |
Daschle Implications:
Think about this everyone! Here we have a Senate Majority Leader and a
Democrat on charge to run a road block for appeals and litigation,
basically giving way to to federal land managers in his state to conduct
business in a reasonable and responsible fashion.
The last administration with Democrat VP Gore at the helm almost
brought conservation to its knee's. Lets look at this, conservation = wise
use of resource (a republican stand point) and preservation = no use of
resources (historically a democratic veiw point). The last administration
created many new monuments with the end goal of preservation in mind.
Forest and rangeland health depends on conservation practices to
prevent large dangerous wildfires. This language is going to the president
for signature. This clears the way for South Dakota. The balance of the
remaining states can then worked out in the near future! Someone should
send Daschle a thankyou for setting the stage and tackling this issue.
r3firetaz |
| 07/25 |
Tom Daschle
I strongly encourage each of you reading this website to bring up and
read the article mentioned in a 7/24 post from CI concerning Senator Tom
Daschle. I hope it will piss off each of you as much as it did me. To
think that this man, who is the majority leader of the Senate, would try
to slide thru a rider hidden in a defense bill that exempts his home state
from any and all environmental challenges to logging on federal lands is a
travesty. In my opinion it is a slap in the face to every person in the
remaining 49 states, every wildland firefighter that has to face down the
"Dragon", and every homeowner that has lost or had a home
threatened.
I hope it makes you angry enough that you will take the time to fire
off a message to Daschle and your own politicians in the House and Senate.
If this had been a republican (No, I am not a Republican) you can bet
Daschle and his cronies would have been all over this one like stink on a
turd!
Read the posting and get angry enough to fire off those e-mails folks
and send the article to your local newspapers and television stations.
Firehorse |
| 07/25 |
This is for the guys/gals who work in Southern California, mainly Los
Padres NF.
Firehouse Magazine July 2002 Cover
You all made the front page...Congratulations!
EMT |
| 07/24 |
hey ab,
so they are activating the military! ah, that takes me back to
2000...when i was sentenced to be an mcad (military crew advisor) 30 days
later, and after wasting a perfectly good fire season, a few of us mcads
came up with some stuff to make us laugh about our situation. ala. jeff
foxworthy, we called it ...you just might be an mcad.
...YOU JUST MIGHT BE AN MCAD.
1. If your crew digs only 5 chains of practice line, and 0 chains of fire
line, you just might be an mcad.
2. If you breathe more 2nd hand cig smoke than fire smoke, you just...
3. If you never hear the word "superior" after the word
"mother" you just...
4. If your crew refers to their tool, pack and the hill as bitch, you
just...
5. If your crew refers to push-ups, scissor kicks and front leaning rest
as "gettin' smoked" you just...
6. If your SFC maxes out the 300 lb scale at helibase, you just...
7. If your same SFC uses his inhaler 12 times while ascending
"casualty hill", you just...
8. If at every sit-down break a "spades" game breaks out, you
just...
9. If you are referred to as "sir" the first two weeks of your
assignment, you just...
10. If one of your crew members get severely beaten on his birthday, you
just...
11. If the only smokes on your division are Marlborough, you just...
12. If your shift, minus briefing and travel is only 3 hrs, you just...
13. If your crew cold trails with their lips and nose, you just...
14. If your crew asks for a smoke break "in order to inflate their
lungs" be for climbing a big hill, you just...
15. If you deploy 0 ft of hose, but pull and butterfly 10,000 ft, you
just...
16. If your crew championship wrestles deep into the night at spike camp,
you just...
17. If the same ff that had to get jungle penetrator sling medivaced is in
the chow line before you, you just...
18. If you plumb a mile of hose in the same division you pull hose from
the week before, you just...
19. If your IAP instructs you to patrol and mop up 18 days in a row, you
just...
20. If your crew can perfectly impersonate, Eddie Murphy, Michael Jackson,
and all rappers, you just...
21. If one of your crew members loses his bad feet profile because he was
hip-hoppin' to karokee during R&R, you just...
22. If one of your crew members suffers dt's from a lack of "church's
fried chicken" you just...
23. If the highlight of the day is learning how to play dominos, you
just...
24. If the only bars your crew sees are "water", you just...
all in fun, but i did make lots of money. everyone should try it once!
JR |
| 07/24 |
Ab added some photos, new photo pages, and photo descriptions last
night.
The Meat sent us a number of photos from his collection. We scanned them
and put them on Fire 12, Helicopters
7, Helicopters 8, Crews
5 and Engines 5 photo pages.
We hope to get more info on where and when these pics were taken when he
returns from fire.
On AirTankers 5 we added some new
pics of Tanker 123 on the ground and in the air - and one of T-14's new
paint job. Thanks contributors for the memorial T-123 shots and the
others. The loss of our airborne firefighting brothers is still difficult.
The Forest Service is having a memorial service for the crew of T-123
at the Jeffco Airport tanker base at 9 AM on July 24.
Also just added some excellent pictures of the Buck Rock Lookout on the
Sequoia National Forest, pics of the interior, the views and the
"perch", compliments of Bob-K. Thanks. Put 'em on the Misc
2 photo page. Those gals and guys keep us safe.
Wildland Firefighter Job Series 0462
and Series 0455
Pages are updated. No new jobs on the Jobs
Page.
|
| 07/24 |
Hi Ab,
In mid May 2002 the Bullock fire started a blaze that made it to over
30,000 acres. I operate a small
water company in the area threatened by this fire. I was hired by the
Forest Service to supply water
from my system. Our small village was evacuated for a two week period. Our
Fire Department and
support crews were able to stay and help battle the fire. The Type One
team was able to stop the
advancement of the fire at the Mt. Lemmon Highway and saved the village
along with several
summer home areas. We are spared the loss of personal property through
their work.
I was not sure if your organization was interested but I attached a photo
and a poem titled "Bullock
Lessons." Please feel free to use these if you want. Thank You, for
the great web site.
Michael S
Here's Michael's poem. I
added his Bullock Fire photo to the Fire
12 photo page. Thanks. Ab. |
| 07/24 |
Found the following in the Boulder paper this morning. "New slurry
bomber flight path sought"
CAFSman
www.thedailycamera.com |
| 07/24 |
Brutus, a couple of points:
1."As for the government paying for the accumulated years of a
seasonal's retirement deductions, pay it your self, I did!" Last time
I checked if you are CSRS you don't have to pay for it, if you are FERS
you can only pay back time for seasonal employment prior to 1989. That
eliminates the folks we are talking about current seasonal who are trying
to meet the MEA.
2.Bush proposed allowing investment of up to 18% of Social Security in the
market, not all of it. I would rather be able to make that decision for
myself.
firewhirl, what were you doing from ages 18-34?
6 |
| 07/24 |
If anyone knows of ANY qualified aviation personnel
who are available for a fire assignment, have them
call their local dispatch office or (208)387-5968.
There seems to be a good crop of helicopter crew
members already and more crewmember trainees than
needed.
A couple of days ago NICC had open orders for 4 AOBD,
13 ASGS, 21 ATGS, 86 HCWN, and 166 HECM's.
Homer
Also the National MOB guide says that with the
approval of the resource and their home unit they can
have days off and stay another week, or at PL 5 they
can do 2 weeks have days off and then do another 2
weeks. There is a documentation process that must be
followed to do anything over 14 days. I suggest that
folks get and read a copy of the National MOB Guide
and their GACC MOB guide. |
| 07/24 |
finally, a medal for those moppers
www.denverpost.com
and Uh Oh,
Ancient
sequoias threatened by fire -- Blaze in southern Sierra out of control
Firescribe
More articles on the FireNews page. The ones
that Firescribe contributes usually do not show up on that page. If you
haven't visited that page, it takes about 20 seconds for Moreover to
search the net on our keywords each time the page loads. Ab. |
| 07/24 |
"Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle quietly slipped into a spending
bill
language exempting his home state of South Dakota from environmental
regulations and lawsuits, in order to allow logging in an effort to
prevent
forest fires.
The move discovered yesterday by fellow lawmakers..."
The whole article can be read here:
Daschle
seeks environmental exemption for his state
CI |
| 07/24 |
Brutus,
God protect me from those who feel they need to protect me from myself.
That would be my "stupid" idea you are talking about. We are
not talking about "wannabes" with no experience or ability to
think for themselves . These are mature adults with a minimum required
number of seasons experience and a needed skill. By age 37 no one should
need "big brother" protecting you from yourself.
Tony,
I agree that we don't need a "geriatric" workforce. We also
don't need a workforce composed of "young" folks just working to
get enough experience to find a better job elsewhere. We need a workforce
composed of "young vigorous" firefighters who are paid well
enough to stick with the job till they get old and "old
experienced" firefighters who know that more fires are extinguished
by folks using their heads than folks using their backs. Right now we are
having trouble attracting (and hanging on to) enough of the first group to
even replace the folks in the second that are retiring. And the
firefighting force needs to grow substantially in the next decade.
Similarly there is the safety issue of having enough experienced folks
on the line to say "time to run for the black" so we have fewer
inexperienced firefighters saying "OH S**T...TIME TO POP MY
SHELTER".
Considering that wildfire is projected to continue to be a growing
problem for the foreseeable future we need a counter force that is growing
proportionately. That is not the case currently. In fact many of the
available "young and vigorous" cannot be put on the line due to
the current shortage of overhead (read as: "old and
experienced"). This bottleneck not only cripples the country's
ability to suppress wildfires SAFELY, it affects the yearly income of
"young and vigorous" firefighters. This is not a case of
"if the old guys work the young will not"...it is more like
"if there are not enough old guys available, the young sit on the
sidelines and watch" collecting dust rather than paychecks.
Dana |
| 07/24 |
www.forest.nsw.gov.au/currentaffairs/releases/230702.asp
Australian firefighters to help battle US wildfires
23 July, 2002
A senior firefighter from State Forests of NSW will today fly to the
USA to determine how Australian firefighters can help to battle forest
wildfires sweeping across 12 western American states, the NSW Minister for
Forestry, Kim Yeadon, today said.
"For the second time in three years western USA is in the grip of
major wildfire emergency and American fire authorities are asking
Australia and New Zealand for help," Mr Yeadon said.
"Already, almost 1.5 million hectares of land across a dozen
states has been ravaged by wildfire and local firefighters are currently
battling more than 50 major fires.
"At this stage in the US fire season the total area of forest | |