www.montanaforum.com

As I peruse the FS News Clip on the intranet and read the newspaper
editorials pro and con I noticed a pattern. I have not done any formal
count, but a significant number of the newspapers publishing editorials
opposing any land management and supporting a 'just let it burn' position
seem to be from large cities far from the nearest forest. The newspapers
supportive of land management and scoff at the idea of letting all fires
burn are for the most part from communities close to forests. The
'experts' quoted in the 'let it burn' articles are mostly environmental
industry lawyers, lobbyists, and university biology professors while the
experts quoted in the pro management articles are all foresters and
firefighters.

Interesting -- those most familiar with the problem and face it daily have
a different viewpoint from those distant and not familiar first hand.

-=Dave=-

I listened with great interest to the audio post JF (nice post JF !!!!), sent in. It certainly stimulated some thinking. Mr. O’Toole may not understand fire behavior and potentials, but he did have some very good points.

If you look at the Federal Wildland and Prescribed Fire Management Policy Implementation Guide, it states that a WFIP (Wildland Fire Implementation Plan) will be initiated for all wildland fires. Generally this goes only as far as stage one, but intended purpose is to guide the manager to the most appropriate suppression response or to continue with stage II and III if the fire is to be managed for resource benefits. If units were in fact doing this and the Risk/Complexity assessment portion of Stage II, it would satisfy much if not all the documentation requirements of the 30 Mile Abatement Plan, etc. But this is not the case as most decisions to seek immediate control are made days if not years before the ignition and WFIPs are rarely prepared for wildland fires.

The WFSA is vehicle used to document the suppression response decision. It does have to be prepared on any fire that escapes IA/Extended attack. It usually provides only general operational guidelines for containment lines, but some are more specific.

MIST is not mandated in wilderness, it is up to the unit administrator to set those guidelines.

Fire use is a different, and often economical, way of managing fires. Fire use management levels are set by the level of risk. High risk = high level of management, even to the point of containment and control. Low risk = a much lower level of active management. The trick, of course, is a good assessment of risk and threats (this is one reason why Fire Use Teams are heavy with FBAN/LTAN types) and applying the proper level of management to those. But; it almost always works, and could probably be successfully applied to 60-70% of wildland fires. It also requires a good deal of planning and analysis, so when “fire use” decisions are made they are based on sound assessments.

Fire use involves uncertainty, and requires continuous analysis. Wildland fire involves risk, but things are usually very certain, that is eventually, whatever the cost, the fire will be subdued. The analysis is usually the WFSA and it can be prepared in 2-3 hours and updated only when cost or acres are being exceeded. The core decision is rarely revisited which is why sometimes line is constructed in the rain and snow!! Hack, cough, hock.

DM

These are from the Blue Cut fire in the Cajon Pass near San Bernardino on
Father's Day June 16, 2002.
#1 Tanker drops in front of fire as traffic continues along I15 southbound.
#2 Fire has crossed I15 right over the traffic (8 lanes).
#3 About 1 min later fire has made the 300 yds between it & me. Time to skeedaddle.
#4 Fire is only 3 hrs old. From Mormon Rocks.

MF

I put them on the Fire 12 photo page. Remember this is the fire with extreme behavior that resulted in the burnover of the CDF engine. Glad ya got outta there, MF.

Also added a photo from a Colorado fire entitled "First Day" and put some CO crew photos on the Handcrews 6 photo page. Somehow I deleted the info on these photos. Will the photographer please resend the info --on the fire name, etc? Thanks. Ab.

Sounds like you're about ready to start learning about fire planning. You should start asking your fire mgmt buddies about all that. In your letter, you're kind of mixing apples and oranges.

About WFSAs - they are mandated, but they don't so much set containment lines as the strategy. Containment lines are often identified as part of the strategy, but the key is setting the strategy and evaluating the probability of success. MIST (aka Maximized Income Suppression Tactics, heh heh) is not mandated, it's just a management option.

But the decision to consider wildland fire use (WFU) is made during big-time planning for the entire unit. Resource Management Plans (RMP, aka Land Management Plans) are agency documents that set the umbrella objectives and uses for the land unit. Fire is part of those plans - also air, soil, water, range, timber, wilderness, wildlife, etc etc.

Now all federal land mgmt agencies are supposed to have Fire Management Plans (FMP) that tier off the RMPs. The RMP determines the role of fire on the unit, and identifies the goals of fire management. The RMP would usually identify any areas that would be candidates for WFU. The FMP would describe how, and under what conditions WFU would be allowed and basically a prescription is established for WFU. The FMP determines the extent of attack for all fires in the unit, among other things. Incidentally, the RMP is expected to meet NEPA requirements. This stuff is all done way ahead of acutally implementing any WFU.

If there is an ignition in an area that is designated as possible WFU, the numbers have to be run to determine if the weather and fuels conditions are appropriate to meet the resource objectives. Like they may want it too hot or dry so it won't scorch, or if there's been an extended drought then the expected Maximum Management Area (MMA) might be exceeded and so forth - basically a bunch of fire behavior projections.

Also the wildfire situation has to be evaluated, usually through Preparedness Levels (your homework is to read the National and Geographic Area mob guide sections on Preparedness Levels to see how they relate to Prescribed Fire and WFU). The short version is that the level of fire danger and activity has a bearing on whether candidate fires for WFU are allowed to burn or whether they are initial attacked, or something inbetween, as determined in the FMP.

WFU is essentially like prescribed fire, the conditions must be established and approved beforehand.

In some places, it may be established in the RMP that fires are not worth attacking on an economic basis and allowed to burn because they aren't worth putting out, but that's technically not WFU because WFU is to meet resource objectives like prescribed fire.

I could go on, but it might be easier if you get some of your fire staff buddies to go over this with you. There are probably some mistakes in my description or some places where it's done differently, but I gave you the short version textbook answer as I know it.

BLM Bob

How does a region decide whether to let lightning fires burn? Do they decide ahead of time? or always wait until fire occurs?

I know that once a fire exceeds IA, a Wildland Fire Situation Analysis (WFSA) is done to evaluate alternative suppression strategies against selected environmental, social, political and economic criteria. Is the WFSA mandated for helping set containment lines?

I know that on many fires such as the Florence Fire (now Biscuit) that burn into the wilderness, the decision is made to use MIST (Minimum Impact Suppression Techniques) and when resources are scarce they are often put on non-wilderness portions of the fire. Is the use of MIST mandated in a wilderness area?

Does the economist on NPR know of the environmental and legal constraints incident management teams and wildland firefighters work under? Do such constraints really exist?

It seems that people like the economist who haven't fought fire are naive about fire behavior, controllability and fire effects.

For one thing, they do not understand what catastrophic fire is and how it affects the soil as well as really burning up the vegetation and wildlife. Crown fire that burns very hot "nukes" the topsoil, burning the organic duff away, taking it down to mineral soil and baking it so it is hydrophobic (water fearing). Rains come, water drops bead up on the soil surface and run if there's an incline. There's nothing to hold the water back and nothing to keep the water and moving mineral particles from running into creeks, streams, rivers and reservoirs, making waters murky, killing aquatic life... and silting in drinking water supplies for cities. Such soil takes time to develop a new organic layer that can support seedling life and slow runoff.

I know some theysaid readers have worked on Fire Use Teams to promote low level burns to benefit the environment. Educate us. (Unless all are out fighting fire... and I know most are.) For some pics of wildfire use, check the Whitetail 1, 2 and 3 photos on Fire 6 photo page.

Sure would like to know more about how fire use decisions are made.
Mellie

Northern Rockies, all fires are in the wilderness of MT except the Phlox Fire
21 fires of less than 2 acres, 8 of which are deemed "out"
4 fires that are less than 100 acres
4 that are between 100 and 200 acres
4 that are 500 acres plus; of these, the Phlox in Wyoming is the largest at about 3600 acres

Rockies, all 4 fires in the wilderness areas of CO
smallest is 415 acres, largest is 15,500 acres

Eastern Great Basin, 3 fires in ID, UT, and WY
smallest is under 10 acres, largest is 2600

Southwest has 6 fires in the wilderness of NM
smallest is 157 acres and largest is 2450

Southern California has the Wolf Complex in Yosemite National Park comprised of 4 fires totaling 588 acres

As far as I know there are no Wildland Fire Use (WFU) fires in the Western Great Basin, the Eastern, Southern or Northwestern Areas. yet, that is...

Tahoe Terrie

JF

This is an audio segment from National Public Radio. Ab

I've been on numerous assignments in California over the last few years as Demob Unit Leader. Everybody seems to dread the chaos and pandemonium associated with Demob. I've come up with a good method to avoid some of the log jams:

During active demobilization, with lots of Crews and Engines to Demob, the teams have allowed me to announce the tentative releases of Crews and Engines for the day at the beginning of the 0600 operational briefing. I instruct them to go directly to Demob for a "Demob Briefing" This gets them out of the briefing, where they don't need to be anyway.

Once at the Demob Briefing, I take a roll call and ask for travel times home. I explain that the farthest resources will be given first priority. The ICS 221's are already prepared and handed out. I spread them out as far as when they are to report to ground support. Most vehicle inspection stations can handle about 2 engine strike teams or 4 crews per hour, usually a little more than that. I usually monitor the flow at ground support via logs radio, with the help of someone working in Demob, or a Security person if available. Another potential back up is with the Time Unit. I always co-ordinate with them and try to manage the flow through there also. Usually, the time it takes for vehicle inspections sets up a natural flow...

Firebruc

"NTSB investigators and a U.S. Forest Service team
were also on their way to Fairplay, in the mountains
southwest of Denver, where a twin-engine Beechcraft
Baron on a reconnaissance flight for the Forest
Service made an emergency landing Monday. The
two people on board were not injured, Helmerick
said."

Here in the west of Australia we have very little water. The lakes we have
are saline and generally dry from December onwards. Even then the fringes
would bog a duck and access is an issue.

Therefore we have to employ dry fire fighting techniques including hand tool
attack. However we are unable to mobilize vehicle based resources from other
jurisdictions (e.g. NRE as Peter described) as they are some 3,000 km (2000
miles) away. Therefore we have to get smart. Waterbombing is only effective
in our country when supported immediately by ground crews.

We therefore spend a lot of effort in establishing trafficable firelines
using dozers, loaders, graders etc. Where areas are not trafficable, we
resort to hand tools. It must be stated that we don't have any where near
the same problems with slope over here.

One fire last year in our Goldfields region was in the order of 300,000
Hectares, (500,000 + acres) the resources there were about 4 managers, a
fixed wing aircraft for reconnaissance, 2 dozers, 4 graders, and about 4
water carrying appliances (tankers).

Almost all of our appliances for wildfire are four wheel drive and are able
to get very close to where we need them. Rather than ignoring the skills of
these very competent people there may be something to be learnt from them.
The reason they are there is learn and to teach, none knows the lot, but
maybe we could learn some more from each other

regards,
Joebloggs.

Great to have the input from Downunder. Ab.

Here in Australia we do have and use handtool crews. In the state of Victoria the Dept of Natural Resources and Environment employees about 800 seasonal firefighters every Aussie summer, most are used as handtool crews, some as part of engine (called tankers in most parts of Australia) crews. In the state of New South Wales(NSW) were I live, even the predominantly volunteer NSW Rural Fire Service uses handtool crews including Remote Area Fire Teams (RAFT), which are similar to your hotshot crews. What must be understood is that in general, we use engine crews in preference because of the ability to hit harder and faster with this method on the more accessible fires. If no engine access is possible we do it in a similar way to you guys, ie hand tools, dozers, water and retardant bombing from aircraft etc.

Take care -
Peter

Helicopter Fighting Fire Crashes

AK

The story goes on to say that "In the past decade the USFS has failed eight out of 10 inspector general audits." I wonder if the other fedfire agencies do any better.

Does anyone have more info on this story?
Fireronin

The AP story Memo admits $215M wildfire management mistake. Ab.

Keep after it!
ZK

I'm unavailable for the next 7-10 days because of personal and business reasons: does NorCal Tom extend his criticism to all those of us not on fires at this time? Does my non-availability negate my recently completed 18 day assignment on a T-1 IMT? Or my earlier assignments back into May 2002? How about the several T-1 DPICs and OSC1s that are unavailable this season, too?

One last point of confusion, based about taking a downgrade assignment: doesn't ICS 310-1 encourage that practice, by allowing a DIVS to maintain currency by taking a TFL assignment? I for one have taken an Ops assignment this season below my highest quals: seemed like a simple solution to filling a Resource Order when I was asked!

NorCal Tom made a critical point: its been a long season, and its wearing on folks. As long as its on the web, so be it. But on the fireline, we need to be clear thinking and logical, and if we can sense ourselves getting run down, its time for more than the mandatory 2 days off before heading out again.

Remember that the next fire is the most important fire. We really don't need Yogi's "deja vu all over again"!!

Mollysboy

Yogi's deja vu? Hunh? Ab.

You can reply if you like, but I'm heading back to the line and I'm sure THINK ABOUT IT has already gone. Why are you at home sitting in front of your computer? Sorry Ab, can't remember when some comment has made me so mad. Must be the season wearing on. An Ab, thanks for sitting in front of your computer. We all appreciate theysaid.

Yer welcome. Be safe. Ab.

The practice of planting more trees than would eventually be needed was/is done for several reasons. Since any given summer's weather pattern can not be realistically predicted, more trees are planted than are eventually needed to ensure that enough trees survive to fully regenerate the area being planted. In Ca., 1st year planting survival for pine is around 75-80% while fir and sugar pine survival is much lower. After the 3rd year, survival is even lower. In addition, planting extra trees permits the eventual removal of many of the genetically inferior trees (double tops, poor growers, etc), animal damaged trees, etc. during the thinning process. If, however, thinning is delayed for whatever reason, plantations with high survival rates can end up overcrowded. When this planting pattern was first developed, I'm sure the plan developers did not take into account that the timber program would dry up and take the funding source with it. 8 x 8 ft. spacing is very heavy. We have generally used 10 x 10 which plants around 435 trees per acre. Today, we must live with the decisions of the past and move forward.

Reading various posts and news articles I get the impression that some believe that the contractor (or logger) gets to pick and choose what he/she does within the stands they are working. FS contracts are quite specific as to what is to be accomplished and how it is to be accomplished. Timber to be removed under a commercial contract is designated prior to sale of the contract. Around this area designation in commercial projects is by painting of either leave trees or cut trees. Precommerical thinning (under 10" dbh) projects also have designated leave trees and specific specifications that must be followed. Inspectors/sale administrators enforce these specs. Our thinnings are done "from below" where the big trees are left and the smaller trees, fuel ladders and down materials are removed. It can, and is, being done.

It is quite expensive to remove many, many small trees per acre and then transport them to a location where they can be utilized for whatever product is viable in that area. Distances to processing plants are much farther in the west than in the south. Slopes are much steeper. Mechanized equipment that can be used in the south to reduce costs can not work the slopes of the west. It is often more expensive to treat and leave this material in the woods to be burned or chipped.

It is neither an easy nor cheap task that lies ahead to save our forests. To do nothing, however, is to watch our forests die from overcrowding, insect attacks and fires.

DAS

Some people talk like if we allow harvesting, its up to the loggers to take what they want. ..ummm...aren't there foresters (be it government or timber industry property) that write up the specs that will be used in the harvesting?? I think so!

I think it was mellie that mentioned about it always being the two far extremes battling each other and I agree. Why the F are people like that??? There IS a middle ground and it is usually the best choice in the long run in every way. Do we need "Old growth" forests? Sure we do, but should we manage everything for old growth to support a few endangered species and overall do not provide good habitat for the majority of other wildlife? I don't think so. And what happens when that "Old Growth" dies of old age?? Its not going to be there forever.

Another thing that always sticks in my craw is when folks reference property being "destroyed" by clear cutting. Yes there has been clear cutting that has harmed the land, but in most cases not from a forestry aspect. I agree looking up on the mountain and seeing a bunch of big square blocks that have been clear cut looks like crap. But in most cases thats just it, it LOOKS terrible. If those open blocks were natural openings (granted they wouldn't be square, that is one bad thing about clear cutting in the past) would you still consider it a devastated area?? I think probably not. Also, why don't you go back and visit some of those "destroyed" areas that were cut 20-30 years ago. I'm sure that you will find in most cases they don't look so "destroyed" anymore as the new stand of timber has now began to dominate the site.

Whew..ok, I guess thats enough... just needed to vent a bit. But I just have one last thing. Before you make up your mind one way or another visit www.greenspirit.com/ and read the article "Trees Are The Answer" . I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture by the writer, Patrick Moore a few years ago. I was very skeptical going in as he was a very extreme activist with greenpeace back in the 60's so I kinda expected to come out of there very frustrated with the environmental extremist stuff he was going to spout. Nothing could have been farther from the truth. What a breath of fresh air and a logical common sense perspective.

Pulaski

Why was I told at Yellowstone in '88 that the fire was a wonderful thing, just mother nature restoring her balance, and no one ever tried to put it out (just "herded' it in different directions and got the hell out of Dodge when she went on a tear). Seems like the same thing is happening this year. Is it no longer a wonderful thing that nature is restoring her balance?

Why was I told on the Rabbit Creek fire (Idaho, '96 and only one example of a wide-spread condition) all the bug killed timber could not be salvaged but the courts had ruled it must be allowed to fall and decay so nature could take her course and it was a wonderful thing? Is this part of what we are now calling excessive fuel loading?

Why is having wide-spread large timber with NO timber harvesting so much more important in the Northwest than it is anywhere else in the country? Put another way, does the NW deserve a free ride having the benefits of forest products by forcing the rest of the country to furnish the supply as well as letting the rest of the country pay unimaginable amounts to remove the "little stuff" to manage the fuel load but not cut any trees to help pay for it?

Lets face it, with 300 million or so people and more coming every day, timber must be processed as I, for one, do not want to return to the outhouse (I don't think Sears makes catalogs any more anyway - oops, that is a timber product too) and certainly am not interested in a Southeast Asian type "squatty potty" which only requires water. Sort of reminds me of California's letting Washington/Oregon supply her electric needs - and at a reasonable price please. Why? Is it because California's land is so much more valuable than Washington/Oregon's that power plants/hydroelectric dams must not be allowed to deface that beautiful state? California has many, many things to recommend it, but that situation seems a little one-sided. Is the NW timber situation similar? Maybe the idea is that EVERYONE should drastically change their lifestyle to resemble that of a third world country so ALL timber can be large.

What is so terrible about uneven-aged management and multiple use? Before clearcutting of large areas of public land was allowed, it seemed to provide for most uses reasonably well. That was before the perceived overriding human values of few uses (and users) gained predominance. Seems to me virtually no one wants to go back to the days of clearcutting large areas of public land. It was a lousy idea on public land to begin with, but was done to maximize fiber production to meet projected demand of a growing country and world (which , indeed, it helped do). It also got practically the entire timber industry kicked out of the NW, and some other places as well.

Incidentally, please don't try to justify the current mind-set of NO timber cutting as necessary to save all the endangered species, etc. by producing a "natural" forest. I got sucked in by the spotted owl fiasco and don't intend to be so naive again.

Just a few of the things I don't understand. Somebody help me, I'm confused.

Remember the highest priority: everbody comes back.
mossback

Good points on your insight to the nations ecological problem. Philosophically speaking...lol! We are our own worst neighbors and here's why: many of our lands in the west have been protected under a special designation that carry "can do" and "can nots"...ie...mitigation factors of the T/E Species Act, wilderness, monuments, parks..etc. The nation has been moving steadily towards becoming better stewards (I use this word loosly because it carries a lot of meaning) of the land because publics at large are concerned for land, water, and plant/animal species health. I don't think that we can actually point fingers at one single administration for causing the fuel loadings that we are currently faced with unless we point at the Smokey the Bear campaign.

Finding balance as the pendulum will be the critical responsibility of this administration. Hopefully, that can be done without have the scales tipped.

r3firetaz

I can't seem to get into the photo section of fires 2002, specifically the NcNally Fire. It keeps saying the page is not available.

My son is in one of the photos and I would love to see it.

Can you help me out?

Thanks,
Diana

Diana, This is the R5 fire url that our Fires 2002 page links to: http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequoia/incident/McNalleyphotolink.htm .
Try this one instead. I'm changing the www.r5.fs.fed.us to the equivalent number addy. You can try this any time you have a problem with the R5 fire site. http://166.5.1.221/sequoia/incident/McNalleyphotolink.htm
If this doesn't work, e-mail me again and I will give you the solution provided us by the "hackers" among us who have written in. Nothing illegal of course, but conditions have stretched some of the people trying to get info from the R5 web to seek more creative solutions. This Ab has even learned a few things. Hopefully those in charge of the R5 fire web will come up with a permanent and consistent fix soon. Hmmmmm, wonder what the politics and personalities are behind this current and ongoing SNAFU... Ab.

I would really like to see the details of the Presidents "Healthy Forests Initiative" so I can decide for myself whether this is a legitimate plan for thinning for fire control or a loophole for clear cutting. The rhetoric from both opposing sides on this is just too polarized to believe. It certainly doesn't help that "last-minute provisions in the amendment added by the Bush administration, at the insistence of timber groups" were slipped in as this suggests a collusive partnership rather than an open and honest process. Though normally not a great fan of "environmentalists" I can well understand why they are very skeptical of this policy at this point. I too find the Presidents' "declare emergencies and get to thinning now, before it's too late" statement a bit alarming, given his history. The "declare an emergency" strategy has used by several past leaders and have too often turned out to be more of a "quick... while they are scared lets' pull a fast one" move. Personally I am a bit concerned that the "war on terrorism" appears to be turning into a war on constitutional rights. But I digress.

We need a legitimate and sustainable thinning and preemptive burn policy implemented very soon. I hope this is what is currently being presented. A policy which in any way appears to be tailored to primarily enrich large logging companies will prove in the end to be exactly what is not needed.

Is there a copy of the plan available online?
Dana

I woke up in the middle of the night THINKING ABOUT IT. This has been an ongoing issue on this board, how those from out of an area can safely fight fire when they have no experience with local fire. I thought of about a dozen people I wanted to call and talk to, from crew members to team members on up. Trouble is, many are away... and others wouldn't appreciate a call at 3AM. Instead I just got up and found a book to read so as not to think about it. <chuckle>

Today I rearranged my schedule and have been watching some TV, an unusual thing for me. I want to see what the networks are saying in preparation for Bush's talk in Oregon today. For the most part, they have chosen people to face off who represent the extremes, the Sierra Club rep who faces off against the Heritage Foundation rep on MSNBC, for example.

The Sierra Club guy says the Forest Service has had 7 years to reduce fuels and hasn't done it. He also stresses that there is no plan and there is a lack of fiscal accountability. Boy he is living in the past at least as far as FS FIRE goes. Fiscal accountability is there once the money gets to the fireground (overblown FS cost pools is a problem, imho). The fire plan is there -- in the last 2 years -- which is the time we have had to bring the work force up a bit to be able to begin to safely accomplish a plan. As far as not doing it in 7 years, good grief, with the court cases and foia paperwork that groups like his bring, it's no wonder we're not yet up to speed on fuel reduction.

The Heritage Group woman was better, although she clearly represents the loggers which again polarizes the discussion. And in my mind this is not about logging -- which conjures up images of clear cutting, but about thinning, finding a way to get out the small stuff with a minimum of larger stuff being taken.

One other issue that came up was restricting the fuel reduction to areas on the interface. It seems the Sierra Club rep doesn't even understand that we need fuel reduction in areas outside the interface so as not to have the catastrophic fire that nukes the trees, soils, etc and makes forest recovery very difficult. We do not have the conditions that existed a hundred years ago.

OK, I know I'm preaching to the choir here.
<turns around to address the lurkers>
Please, I ask you listen to whatever is said with an open mind. Rise above viewing fire issues only in terms of the extreme polarities the media seems to thrive on. Work on understanding the real issues and work on finding some real solutions. Ask your fire professionals who are also environmentalists to speak up. Don't let this process be driven by the extremes. We are all in this together.

Finding no solution is a choice that puts our forests, our wild environments, our water supplies, our threatened and endangered species and our interface communities at risk.

Bush is slated to speak soon.

Mellie
<aghhhhhhh> The Wilderness Society rep is saying "there's a fair amount of timber being cut in the west now." Not true, compared to 10 years ago.

During the summer of 2000, I was at NIFC when the concept of using Aussies, Kiwis and Canadians was raised: they all sent reps to Boise with all their Training and Quals manuals/handbooks/etc. There was a rigorous review and comparison of those standards and criteria against ICS 310-1, and they were only certified when they met the US criteria. Their OPS and Air folks performed very well on our fires, and a thorough review was conducted that supported their continued use.

I've also had the opportunity to travel to Australia on 6 different occasions to work with the Aussies on Bushfire/wildfire issues, and found them to be well trained, competent and safety conscious. Yeah, they do in fact have 10/18: worded slightly different than ours, but nearly identical. They are mostly Tanker-based (our engines) in their suppression efforts, but have some hand crews and tractor operations. They have a serious concern about safety (all of my trips DownUnda were fire safety related), and they have studied our fatal fires such as South Canyon in great detail; "Fire on the Mountain" was required reading at the Country Fire Authority's (CFA) "Professional Development Course for Operations Officers" in 2001. When they do have a safety failure ("Linton" in December 1998 killed 5 tanker crewmen), they do a full, complete AND PUBLICLLY OPEN review of all the details. Check out www.cfa.vic.gov.au/linton/index.html

Yeah, there is a difference in Australian/NZ fires and "Biscuit"; the same can be said for fires in the Florida swamps, West Texas plains and Indiana Sand Dunes. We accept Easterners, Southerners and Mid-westerners on "Biscuit", and they also allow us Westerners to go South to into the Okie National Wildlife Refuge or the Volusia County interface. Is there really a difference bringing in Aussies and Kiwis? Their areas around Sydney and Melbourne are mirror images of conditions in Southern California chaparal.

I too was on "Biscuit" as an OSC1, and sure didn't find the folks at NIFC offering up lots of DIVS from USFS Regions 4, 9 or 3 as suggested. We only call up the Aussies, Kiwis and Canucks (as well as us old retirees) 'cause there aren't enough permanent, full-timers from America to fill all the resource orders.

Its a basic premise of the National Wildfire Coordinating Group that we accept each other's quals, weather Fed, State, Rural, County. Let's get past our biases and look at performance. The options this year (again) were to overextend the span of control, or leave fires (or some divisions) unstaffed. In my opinion, our "mates" from the Southern Hemisphere are a welcome addition to our fire forces.

Dick

I do have a problem with making them DIVS and actually assigning American trainees to them after they shadowed an American DIVS for a few days. They can't be ready for such a task on a busy, and exceeding large Division with more resources than they will ever get on a large fire in their own country.

By their own accounts the Australian contingent have never seen anything like this, and outside of Alaska we have not either. Terrain, fuels and weather in the Siskiyous are so different than anything they have ever experienced. I know that if I was sent to Australia and put in the environment that they are from I would not assume such responsibilities and I have been a DIVS since 1988.

They may be the best firefighters in Australia but I can't believe they can be making tactical decisions based on anything but what the Branch Directors are telling them.

Some will say fire is fire but there are vast differences in the way we do things and the way they are used to fighting fire. There are no handcrews in Australia therefore no hand crew tactics or safety considerations. Do they know the 10 AND 18? the Downhill, Indirect Fireline Guidelines? and how to apply them to the situation at hand? Are they aware of the Common Denominators of Fatality Fires and the types of tragedies we have experienced in our recent history.

If 30 Mile and South Canyon are so important to us that we make far reaching changes in the way we look at all the aspects of this firefighting thing from safety zones to the 2 to 1 work rest ratio, supervision, decision making, risk awareness and all the rest. Then how in good conscience can we put some one from Australia in charge of 1000 people on the biggest fire in living memory??

The Aussies are great firefighters and I enjoyed working with them and the Canadians on the Biscuit fire, but I pity the fool who decided to make them fireline supervisors after a week of shadowing a Type 1 team member on a fire and visiting NIFC for a day. If someone gets hurt or killed on their watch where is the responsibility going to lie? and what is OSHA going to say about that?? On the other hand if they are successful, is this going to be the way we do business from now on. I am sure there are plenty of DIVS sitting in Region 4 or 9 or 3 that would love to come to Oregon.

Bring the out of country folks in to learn how we do things or run a pulaski or squirt water, but don't put them in supervisory positions. I would expect no less if I were lucky enough to be invited to Australia or Canada.

THINK ABOUT IT

I've got to agree with OB. No info at all on the blokes from Oz and how they're going. Thanks Molloysboy.

Here on the west side of Oz we are also having a ver dry spell. So far this August we are at 40% of average rainfall. June and July were also below average. I am glad we have some people over there getting up to speed and learning some new stuff in time for our season.

Stay safe,
Joebloggs

Onelick, I definitely do not have any animosity towards IAFF members. They have some great firefighters, I mourn the loss of their members, and I respect the right on that organization to honor its fallen brothers and sisters.

The IAFF memorial has had some controversy. The Colorado Springs newspaper ran some articles critical of the IAFF for being discriminatory while the memorial is in a city (not union) owned park. In 1994 a Colorado Springs radio station held a fund raiser for the families of the South Canyon fatalities. They chose the IAFF memorial as a location. They were told to cease and desist by the IAFF because none of the 14 fatalities were union members.

FWFSA Socal , I agree, let us remember the sacrifices. I mourn the loss of my friends. I am saddened by the loss of any firefighter, whether they be VFD, contract, union, Fed, city, etc. But also remember that families and friends have gone to the IAFF memorial and found out that their loved ones did not qualify. That is truly a slap in the face.

6

Amidst other discussion, Forest Ecologist Jim Agee explains why
Western wildfires have become so common
MSNBC.com

Bush proposal to target "fire crisis"
MSNBC.com

It sounds like you are talking about a Pine plantation. They are common in my neck-o-the-woods (midwest) and probably so in most of the eastern US. I have never noticed many in the western us, however I do clearly recall planting trees (using a chain saw head with an auger attachment to dig the holes, and, boy did that separate out the wimps!) at abt 8x8 spacing. Plantations usually go through a couple of row thinnings before it gets to the point where you start doing a selective thinning and by that time the trees are usually big enough for saw logs. For pulp the mills take trees down to a 4inch dia at the small end and sometimes even down to 2inch if they need the wood. The difference here (midwest at least) is that there is a HUGE pulp (trees to make paper) market (in both demand and mills that need the raw product) and we do not have the huge costs/difficulty of getting the trees from the stump to the mill as in a remote mountain location. I would assume that the problems with accomplishing some thinning needs in western states are just that. The cost is to much to make it economically feasible.

On a related theme, I also remember doing a LOT of post timbersale work ( in the west) which consisted to cutting down all remaining trees & saplings to prep an are to be burned and replanted. I dont have a clue now as to what was the the majority species we were cutting down, (probably something the foresters did not want or it was stunted from being under the original canopy...at least I hope) but I have always wondered as it seemed like we cut down a ton of trees just to replant the area after the burn.

pulaski

Schedule A resources such as Type I engines, Rescues, Paramedic Units, and Truck Companies are funded by a local government agencies such as a county or fire district. CDF has about 38 Counties in California that have contracted with CDF to be their fire department. The contract county determines the amount of staffing and type of equipment they want and CDF will tailor the fire protection to there needs and budget. If the contract wants 4 person staffing on an ALS Truck company, we can do that. If they want 2 person staffing on a Type II engine, that can be done as well.

As for 5150 this is a code that basically says a person is a danger to themselves or others due to a mental incapacity. A peace office can place them under arrest for 72 hours for their own protection until a psychological evaluation can be conducted.

RC

While I'm not a CDF'er, I believe that Schedule A and B have something to do
with whether or not a county has contracted out fire protection to CDF. A
5150 is someone who's not quite all there, is determined by a Peace Officer
to be a threat to themselves and/or others, and can be arrested (I think on
a 48 hr. hold) for their own protection.

TC

Heavy green canvas wall tents housed 10 people each. The ground inside was covered by wooden pallets, nicely carpeted with thinsulite foam pads. We each had a cot with extra paper sleeping bags. Propane heaters at either end of the tents and flourescent light kits strung up along the ridgepole completed the homey setting. This made for long evenings playing cards or reading. We also had a VCR movie tent and I saw more videos than ever.

The work was winding down; we only saw fire or smoke twice. Most of the days were filled with rehab of wilderness firelines along trails, flush-cutting and covering stumps, making waterbars, etc. We moved mountains of dusty old tanoak and madrone brush which had been sitting outside the fireline for at least a month. Then there was the rehab of all the various firecamps. If a farmer's field had been rented we fixed fences, picked up garbage after the 20-yard dumpsters were moved after being in the same place for weeks (yuch!), re-seeded tracks through the pastures, and fixed anything else the landowners thought we had disturbed. All this without any possibility of hazard pay.

Meals were taken at the restaurant in Agness; they had wonderful carved jack-o-lanterns on display from the previous Native American crew. The local store couldn't deliver sodas or juice (this was before bottled water) because they had not been paid yet for all the supplies they had delivered earlier and they could no longer extend credit to the govt.

I thought at the time it was a unique situation, but now I see this historical experience may be valuable again. These are just some of the situations you all may be facing next month as the Biscuit fire winds down.

"Woman-on-Fire" - now grown and changed into "WhiteAsh"

Clifford

From your previous post...... "Last time I checked, you had to be a member of the IAFF killed in the line of duty to get your name on the IAFF Colo Springs memorial. Last time I looked there were no wildland firefighter's names on that memorial." ...... When you check next time there will be. IAFF Local F0262 Member, Steve Oustad, member of the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association will be missed by all of us in the Wildland Fire community.

All three members of LNF E-11 will be added to the California Firefighters Memorial and the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Maryland.

Let us remember the sacrifices they have made and not begin discussions of who is or is not on specific memorials. To begin discussion like that would be a slap in the face to the families, friends, co-workers, and the entire Wildland Firefighting community.

FWFSA Socal

Here's a question for anyone: Has there been a formal or informal ban on Federal Wildland Fire Agencies from posting individual websites up (like for engines, crews, stations, etc.). There were once some good ones either attached to a Forest's Website (such as the R-5 Modoc NF's E-65 crew/station) that have been removed or cannot be located. The Lassen NF has a great website regarding information about its Fire Management Teams for each district.

Anyone have an answer?

MOC4546

Home for a moment from the Biscuit. This satellite image has been making the rounds. Awesome to see where I just was.

http://asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/default.htm

If you click on the photo you go to a new page devoted to the fire. If you click on the photo on that page you get a even bigger image, you can see the burnout and the ridges and the roads. Amazing technology.

AL

Very nice one, Al. The detail on the large image is excellent. One of the Abs updated the Current Fires, 2002 page last night. With new fires burning in CO and further west, it's interesting to see which ones get represented on the web. Hats off to those teams who are able to put the info out for the public. It's easier and more efficient for them to pull the info than for the team to have to push it via fax or phone. Ab.

TO OB - Best place to get a GACC map (of the fire management regions) is on the NICC (National Interagency Coordination Center) site at: www.nifc.gov/news/nicc.html .

The best place to find out how to get to the CA / R5 site is here, as it's still not fully functional all the time. No outlook yet on when that will be up but I hear folks are working on it, or at least some of them (hopefully...).

Also, as a side-note, here's a gem few seem to know about for "real-time intelligence"... at least two of the GACCs have "News & Notes" pages that are updated with current information throughout the day.
Southern CA: www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/scsc/gaccintel/notes.html,
Southwest: www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/webdaily/swaintnn.htm.
The southern CA site also has some pretty good archives of the fire season this year and last, but you have to navigate around a little to find stuff as it's not on the main CA Intelligence Site.

TO IIMT - I have heard from some folks who are involved with FEMA that they are working on ICS and also using some of the other things the wildland system has in place for setting priorities and managing multiple disasters. Also, in Bush's recently released National Strategy for Homeland Security, and in all of the other related literature his offices have put out this spring, he very clearly states the need for one single comprehensive integrated national incident management system and the response plans to match (also integrated). In some of the literature, ICS is mentioned as well as mutual aid, interagency efforts, etc. However, it is not yet obvious how or when FEMA or the new Department of Homeland Security (which doesn't quite exist just yet) will make a move in this direction. I would be interested to talk to you more.... if you want, maybe Ab can send you my name or vise-versa... I'm trying to find out more on this myself. Here's part of what I've come across...

The National Strategy for Homeland Security is at:: www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/ ...Look for the "emergency preparedness and response" sections...

Here are two newsletters on homeland security issues, for those who are interested (the first one is the most useful...):
www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/current_bulletin.cfm
www.twotigersonline.com/8.05.02.html

It is my personal opinion that FEMA and the rest of the country could learn a lot from wildland firefighters. We manage more and larger incidents and mobilize more resources faster than any other government or other agency anywhere in this country. And, we even work together doing it a lot of the time, between agencies. If there is another proven way to handle so many large incidents more efficiently than we do, I would be very interested in finding out how it could be done. It is inspiring to see the Coast Guard take such an active role in learning how we do business... they even have their own version of the Fireline Handbook (I think it's online somewhere also).

Well, that's a soapbox if I ever saw one. I guess that's why we have this forum, huh Ab? And on a personal note, three cheers for Ab for all the time and dedication you are putting into this site. I remember when I first started following "They Said It" in 98... with a small chummy group of "discussors" participating and a much more basic set of topics than the complexity we have nowadays.
Thank you, Ab and the other one(s) for making this site
an invaluable intelligence tool,
a forum,
a laundry room,
a training center,
a firehouse,
a neighborhood,
a family,
a support group,
a union hall,
a counseling center,
an open mike night (and we have some poets), and
an all-around wildfire clearinghouse.

Thanks again, and don't overwork yourself (take some time out! we'll survive!) --
- butterfly

Nice list of descriptors for the site, Butterfly. Ab.

The Hinman fire was combined with the Burn Ridge fire and is now being reported under the Mt. Zirkel Complex. On Fri and Sat we had 50 mph winds. Windy! Aircraft were even grounded. The Burn Ridge Fire began on Aug 12 as the result of lightning and blew over the continental divide in the Mt Zirkel Wilderness on Sat. On Sat the Hinman grew to 9,236 acres.

You're right, the Hinman that began July 12 had been reported contained at 1426 acres on July 24. Contained isn't controlled though and all it takes are fuel, O2 and some flying embers. You've been on our fireline, you know we have drought, a million tree blowdown and beetle killed trees. There are thousands of standing beetle killed spruce trees - 30 to 80% depending on location- in the Mt Zirkel Wilderness. Their needles are quite flammable and they're ready to torch off. Flamelengths rise a hundred feet or more above the trees. Brands and embers get kicked out and take off up to a mile and a half ahead of the fire. No stopping it. Just gotta get out of the way. Managers are being safe.

Diann Pipher our FS spokeswoman is saying that the fires are likely to burn together. We are now managing them as one and trying to keep them from spreading to private property. I've heard this is one of the top priorities in the Rocky Mts.

Co FF

PS Some arguments for reducing fuels and cutting trees here.

I was wondering if FEMA has a working ICS in place or if they're working on it. If the IIMTs are in the middle of a fire season like this one or the one in 2000 and are actively evacuating people from the fire front, our teams might not be so available to respond to multiple events elsewhere. Priorities will have to be evaluated. We have a good system for setting priorities with multiple fires and other disasters. FEMA should use us as a model.

IIMT guy

I have heard that such plans are in the works. Coast Guard and other non-fire people have been showing up on fire this summer to see how the system works. Undoubtedly our ICS is being used as a model.
Ab.

Wildfires Fuel Forest Thinning Debate

Ab, please add this one- The actual news event and release of the report (on the networks) was much more directed toward changes than this CNN article suggests. The mayor made it very clear that this is not a blame game or pointing the finger, but looking for ways to improve response and functioning when confronted in the future with such a large and difficult incident.
FDNY recommends policy changes

I hope that someone viewing They Said might be able to help me. I'm trying to locate and purchase the fabric used to make fire shelters [shiny silver], by the roll. A couple of seasons back I ran into some folks from the City of Portland OR. Fire Dept., who were wrapping historic buildings with the stuff prior to getting hit with flames, but I haven't been able to find these folks since. Any info that someone might be able to provide would be greatly appreciated.

Stay safe and thanks!

Rock @ Wood's Fire and Emergency Services 530-832-6358

Co FF

Gotta thank Mollysboy for the update of where our people are – we’re not getting any info back here unfortunately.

Dana a paper was written by one of the Aussies that came over in 2000 which can be read at www.calm.wa.gov.au/projects/fires_in_usa.html.

From a Down Under perspective, we are heading in to a drought here after having a very dry winter (sound familiar to anyone?), 80% of NSW (New South Wales) in declared drought, & fire prohibitions in place in some areas since the beginning of August when it’s usually October.

Ab, one question – where can I find a map setting out the areas for the Regions so I’m less geographically embarrassed in some of the discussions?

Many thanks
OB

Take a look on the top of the Links page under News then go to Sit Report by Geographical Area. The next line is Geographic Area Map. You can click on the areas for the GACC (Geographical Area Communication Center) Reports. The only one that doesn't work is California - R5. We have the Sit Report by GACC page as a workaround for that problem, we hope. Ab.

If you haven't signed up, now is the time. These are some of the issues that the FWFSA has been fighting for years now for the Federal Firefighters.

An-R5er

The Abs agree. If you're a federal firefighter, sign on up. Link at the top left of the header.

Firehorse

I'll be there after my trip on Friday to visit the South Canyon Fire Trail.

I'd hope that every Wildland Firefighter that can come... does. I am busy, as are all Wildland Firefighters, .... but this time is special to me and I've made time for it that I CAN take off......I'm sponsoring a fairly new Wildland Firefighter and member of the FWFSA to come as my guest and view some of the history of wildand firefighting and the IAFF. Please readers, if you get a chance, join us in this memorial service and BRING A FRIEND.... Its means alot to us in the Firefighter Community.

Here's the link: http://daily.iaff.org/FFMemorial/home.htm

SoCalCapt

This year we recruited a guy who is a stock broker. He came to one of our recruiting fairs that we put on in the winter. He was interested in the job and asked if we could help him out getting a seasonal job fighting fires in the west this fire season.

He didn't have any fire experience or training, the only thing going for the guy was his drive, passion and just wanting a chance.

We helped him out with his application and got it turned in on time before the fire season began. He is now on one of our new engines as a seasonal firefighter and having a great time. He is probably one of the best recruits that we hired. I know the Captain is really happy with him and thanked us for giving his name to him.

Here is a little advice that I can give you. Keep the drive going and ask as many questions about the job as you can. If you are worried about classes you should probably look in to the local colleges and see what type of classes they offer and sign up for them. I know the web site for the ASAP program is still up and has all the instructions that you need to fill out an application.

I would suggest waiting until next fire season to get hired. You need to get as much information as possible about the job, get into the best physical shape you have ever been in (hike, run, and lift weights) and fill out that application and turn in.

We got lucky finding a guy who was in top physical condition and able to pick up really quick all the S classes that we put on during the fire season. He didn't have any experience at all, he just listened and asked questions when he didn't know the answers.

Good luck with everything, and if you have any questions, Ab knows how to get a hold of me.

An-R5er (yes 07 it is me)

Ab.

The next day several people sent in links to photos of the crash site and rescue, and official CDF information including names and engine number.

Guess you don't read theysaid on a daily basis... You're welcome to... Even had an update on how the three who were injured are recovering. Sounds like they're doing fairly well -- at least better and better -- for which we are very thankful. One has gone home. Anyone have more up to date info than that?

Ab.

I have not heard anything about the "imported overhead" from Oz (Australia). Does anyone have any info on how that program is going? Are they actually on the job yet? How many have been willing to make the trip from halfway around the world to help us out so far? I would be very interested in hearing their thoughts on how wildfire suppression in the US is similar/different from Oz now that they have some first hand experience in both locales.

Chris,

National news reported a few days ago that the Feds expect to lose about 15% of their firefighters in the next few weeks due to return to school. As a rule states lose even more since they tend to depend more heavily on students. Some states may not require the pack test of firefighters not expected to go to federal fires or work out of state. This may provide an opportunity for you to get some experience yet this year. Try contacting the states that are projected to have the longest amount of fire season remaining and asking about job opportunities. I would start with these states, Departments of Forestry or Natural Resources. They may be able to "fast track" a potential newbie. I would also contact these states Dept. of Employment. Your states Dept. of Employment may be able to expedite this contact as some are very well interconnected with other states. If you are lucky you may be able to get 3-4 months of job experience yet this year. You may just end up filling in for more experienced state firefighters while they are out of state or you may get real lucky and get to some :project fires" yourself. If they want to send you out of state they will get you the needed (minimum) training and pack test. If this happens I cannot stress enough the importance of getting paired up with the most experienced firefighter you can. You will learn things you would not otherwise and be much safer than if you are surrounded by other newbies.

Good Luck,
Dana

On the Antelope fire it seems ODF actually did a good job on this one not much smoke this morning! KUDOS to ODF for this one.

FIREHAWG

Targhee Regulars IA crew from Targhee National Forest, Idaho on the Eastfork Fire. Fire was located in NE Utah, Uinta Mountains, July 2002.

Sfirelake

I put it on the Handcrews 5 Photo page. Ab.

I'm sure you are probably growing tired of getting emails from people like me, but I still feel compelled to write for your advice.

Yes, you guessed it, I'm a "wannabe," a "newbie," a "rookie," and whatever else you can think of to call someone with no experience who wants to be a wildland firefighter. I'm a college graduate who has been out in the business world for 8 years, but have absolutely had enough of the BS. I am an avid outdoorsman, enjoy the satisfaction of strenuous outdoor work, am fascinated with wildfires, and want to have a go at fighting those suckers and learning a completely new vocation. Yeah, a vocation. Let's just say it's a "calling."

A couple of things seem to be standing in my way, though: I live on the East Coast (soon to be remedied as I am relocating to Oregon after falling in love with the place during a visit to Bend a couple of months ago), I have ZERO experience, it's late in the summer, and apparently it is too late for this year to attend training and take the pack test. I have been visiting your website for a few months now and have found the postings helpful and enlightening. However, after applying for fire jobs through just about every government agency website, I have seen or could find, I have gotten no response. Nada. Nothing. Zero. These websites things seem to be black holes. I have made loads of phone calls to ask for advice and get pointed in the right direction, but really can get no concrete answers. A day late and a dollar short, that sort of thing.

Forgive me for being so longwinded, but I'm a little frustrated. My questions to you are: is it too late for this season (from what I'm reading, it sounds like the season out west is going to go long this year)? Is it too late to get the proper training to catch on with a crew should something open up? Is this a case where I actually need to be physically on location near particular forests to beat down their doors and bug them to death as you suggest on your website? What about contract crews (like Patrick Environmental and GFP Enterprises in Oregon)? Is there any hope?

Like I said, you're probably sick of getting emails like this, so again, I apologize. I just want to get involved. I truly believe it is a calling. I'm healthy, strong, in excellent physical condition, and have a good head on my shoulders. I'm available. I'm ready to jump in with both feet. I'm just having a hard time getting the proverbial "foot in the door." Now, I completely realize that these jobs are competitive and there is a long line of people waiting to get in. I just want to make sure I'm actually in the line.

I would be grateful for any new insight or advice you could provide. Candor is better than canned, if you know what I mean.
Thanks much for your time - I really appreciate it! Best regards,
Chris

Try this from NOAA
Oregon (smoke looks like a left hand print at botton left)
www.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/2km/Portland/VIS2PDX.GIF
Parts of OR and CA with the smoke from the Biscuit plumes reaching down into Del Norte Co CA
www.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/1km/Medford/VIS1MFR.GIF
Compare those smoke plumes with this NIFC map of the large fires:
www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/firemap.html
Any guesses on the other "smokes"? Ab.

This first photo was taken July 19, approx. 9 pm. from Cottage Beach Cabin Vacation Rental.
The second photo was taken about 11 pm, from Fields Point Landing.
Both pictures were taken w/ Kodak DC4800 Digital camera. 1.8 aperture setting, at 1.5 second exposure.
Photos by: David

The world is coming to an end. Please log off.
'Nuff Said.

Spectacular night fire behavior. I put 'em on the Fire 12 photo page with the others. Nature's fireworks. Ab.

Hope the Hoopa Reservation Fire Dept, FS, CDF and Willow Creek and other local vollies can contain it.
Be safe all.

Mellie

A Ferguson contract crew cab with 5 people rolled over on Hwy 199 at about 0830 or 0900 today near O'Brien OR. The other members of the 20 person crew traveling in other vehicles were diverted to firecamp at Lake Selmak OR. The crew had left Albany at about 0430 and were en route to Brookings. All 5 people in the cab were taken to the hospital in Grants Pass, treated and released. They were later seen at firecamp and seemed to be doing alright although one was sporting a plaster cast on their arm.

Regarding those CDFers hurt in SoCal:

Ab got an e-mail from info sent out yesterday stating that the two firefighters who were serious were upgraded to fair and the one who was critical had also improved and was heard to say "I feel like I've been hit by a fire truck." Good sense of humor there. It was thought his condition would also be upgraded. We wish them the best recovery.

Thought you might be interested in this story from 9NEWS.com Denver.
Firefighter plane goes off runway

Thank Goodness this one did not end up worse......

I'm attaching photos from an exchange earlier this year. We sent Scott Bushman (Superintendent, Logan IHC) to Krasnoyarsk (east of Novosibirsk in central Siberia). Russia is very interested in our Hot Shot program, and has been trying to implement a similar firefighting resource. Scott's mission was to conduct formal training courses on hot shot crew firefighting concepts and techniques. This is a follow-up of similar efforts from 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

Photos include the crew, classroom training, line construction, chainsaw use, and taking the pack test.

I'll send you more from the Heli-Rappel efforts, more hot shot exchanges, etc. Thank you for the site...and next time I put together a detail announcement for firefighters going to Russia I'll remember to include theysaid.

IBA

Sure, Ab sez "send 'em in". Let's give these Russian Firefighters a face. I put the first five on the Handcrews 5 Photo page.

Do you really want to go there? AB do you really want to let flames like this occur. My professionalism will not allow me to comment on USFS conduct on fires unless it is positive or constructive. I would advise the rest to do the same unless you want a bunch of dirty laundry aired. This page should be utilized in the spirit of interagency cooperation not divisiveness. Your move........

CDF Firefighter

Interagency cooperation, all for it unless there is an incident large or small that is very specific that relates to safety. Ab.

Interesting responses,
I for one did not see a slight of our Russian firefighting comrades in Mr. Thiessen's article. Quite the contrary, I saw a photographic tribute to the human spirit.

Mr. Thiessen allowed me to look into the face of a Russian smokejumper and see an inner strength that most flabby Americans could never comprehend. I have talked to a few who have been involved in these Russian/American firefighting exchanges. They too were treated with the utmost dignity and respect.

They were also treated to copious quantities of Vodka and puked right along with the Russians. This love of alcohol should not be dressed up in a cloud of self righteous indignation for the sake of international relations, for alcoholism saps the vitality of this nation and Russia.

The Russians are obviously some of the best wildland firefighters in the world.
They are working with fire budgets which are often non-existent and under conditions which are harsh at best. Does this make them any less dedicated than the rest of us- I say no. Quite the contrary, it gives me hope that their future will be bright.

Our colleagues at Avialesookhrana are tough and will get over this self-perceived slight to their national pride. In every jump base and engine bay in America one could find many of the same problems which plague firefighters everywhere in the world. To rise above these problems each of us are called to find the strength within. The Russians need no lessons on finding the strength of the human spirit, they are a shining example of it.

Thanks Mark Thiessen for sharing that spirit with us.
Spoiled American

I did however read, (and just re-read) the National Geographic article. Co-workers in fire on my unit brought it to my attention. All enjoyed it, and were impressed by the challenges Russian firefighters face, and their resourceful talents. We could all appreciate that it takes both teamwork and rugged individuality to succeed in what they do. What I did not hear was any reference to these men being "cowboys" or wild or drunken or anything derogatory. I did not see that emphasized in my reading.

Let's talk about culture. I have also had several opportunities to host the "International Foresters" group when (in past years) they made a nationwide tour. One thing we emphasized with our folks was the need to have some awareness/sensitivity to other cultures and values. In turn, we explained to visitors that we too have an "American" culture that they need to be sensitive to.

Yes, if one were to view the world from the cultural norms of Russia, it could be "insensitive" or even "insulting" to their values to tell the story as written. But I don't think such was the intent of the author(s). It seemed to me that they were writing an informative, and entertaining article addressed to the audience of National Geographic. I seriously doubt that the majority of readers would come away with anything but an admiration for the Russian firefighters.

As to the appropriateness of allowing such a publication or even a reference at a website.......let's talk about "American" culture. I believe we are defined by our appreciation of the right to express opinion, however controversial, unpopular, or even erroneous. Do we really want to buy cultural sensitivity at the price of censorship?

Bottom line, I like the Russians, and I think the majority of Americans who read the article will like them too. If Russian culture takes offense at American culture.....then there's more for us to work on to understand each other. I look forward to their next visit. We can again share some vodka and eat "big meat" (They were fond of large steaks).

Spasiba
OFG

Regarding the post from Puffin II and the Cache Queen (responding the N.G. article on Russian Smokejumpers) - Bless Your Hearts! I have been involved with the USA/Russia Firefighter Exchange Program over the past several years, and know how devastating that article was to our colleagues at Avialesookhrana. With permission of Puffin II and Cache Queen, I would like to forward their comments to Russia, and let them know that not all Americans share the attitude displayed in the National Geographic article.

signed - IBA

Some pretty spectacular night fire behavior. Nice ones. I put them on the Fire 12 photo page. Also updated the Current Fires, 2002 page. Most recent fires and fires still burning are at the bottom of the list by state. Ab.

I WILL NOT regret sending this post, as it truly comes from the hard core beliefs and heart of a fire person.

I would first like to clarify that I am not attacking an individual, rather sighing dismally at an organization of journalists. I do not profess to be an expert in this field, and would never attempt to evaluate products as to their journalistic qualities -- what I DO profess to be, however, is a person with manners. I was taught as a young child to display respect, and not to belittle or mock others in a way that results in their degradation and shame.

With that disclaimer, I will continue to say that I was horrified and rebuked by the portions of the article that were linked from this site to the National Geographic Magazine regarding Russian Smokejumpers. Why the person put his name and link on that post for all to read is beyond my imagination -- perhaps a ploy at more "celebrity" for himself......although, not the kind that I would wish for.

The international exchange program between Russian and American firefighters has been ongoing for quite some time, with a great deal of effort made by all who have participated and supported the program. Mutual respect and celebration of cultural differences has always been a mainstay of the exchange. My husband was one of those PRIVILEGED to represent the US on an exchange for over six weeks in Krasnoyarsk. He was welcomed by the hard working, poorly funded Russian fire program, and made to feel an honored guest by his host, "Sasha" (Alexander Selin) -- as he was called by his friends -- a.k.a. "Big Boss" -- as he was called by the journalists.

What I received first hand from Mr. Selin, were many e-mail's detailing where my husband was, and how appreciative the program was of his assistance; always delivered with the utmost courtesy. The Russian people do not have much in the way of material items (as we Americans would gauge it) -- but what they do have, they share to a fault. What they certainly have is PRIDE.

This last thing -- "PRIDE" -- has now also been taken away, on an international stage by the National Geographic personnel, who appeared to be more interested in how they could mock another culture with lesser means, while focusing attention on themselves. As I said, I am NOT an expert in journalism, but, I naively thought that writing was to draw attention to the subject -- not the writer/photographer. The Russian fire program spent a great deal of time, scarce and expensive resources on entertaining their "guests." They shared their food and traditions, and received a slap in the face for payment.

As a result of this article, and the huge price tag hung on pride, integrity and respect by the Soviet society, some of these HARD WORKING fire personnel are now at risk of losing their jobs ---- they have already lost face.

If this were a perfect world, and everything was fair and equal, "we" should now be able to select a fire person to go to Russia to mock the journalistic culture there. Trouble is, I don’t think we’d have any volunteers. You see, the fire community has far too much class to lower themselves to that level.

Cache Queen

This was just an extreme example of how the Hatch act can be abused. It was never intended to prohibit free speech "off duty". It was intended to prohibit lobbying for personal private causes while "on the clock". This was in response to massive fraud by politicians who were putting people on the public payroll in jobs they never went to so they could campaign for the incumbent and be paid by the Govt. rather than the incumbents party having to pay their salary.

Now for the "rest of the story":
We decided that if one of us was willing to forgo the "real job" that one could continue to testify for all without fear and the rest could enjoy some job security.

I won the honor and continue to testify on nearly yearly basis before those oversight committees.

Fireronin

PS....Funny thing though. After a few years I started getting phone calls from long time DNR full time employees, many who did not fight fire, asking me if I was interested in "reporting" this fraud or that abuse in the DNR "for them" as they did not even dare approach their union reps. And yes, the DNR has a program to encourage employees to report fraud, waste, and abuse...but somehow most who use it to do so end up getting punished for doing so. Hmmmm.....

Oops, I was not clear. In the incidents I was referring to their actual AD level was changed. For example what was AD4 on the unaltered red dogs was changed to AD3. In my experience the AD "level" and rate of pay is established when you get to the incident if not before so there should be no excuse for such a screw up. ADs seem to have no recourse for Federal bookkeepers changing their contract after the fact (and after they have been signed off on by both parities) except sue in federal court. Economically this is not an option since even if you acted as your own lawyer it costs several hundred dollars to file and show up in court. If you hire a lawyer to represent you in fed. court you have a less than 2% chance the court will order their fees be paid by the Feds if you win. And since you are suing the Feds in fed. court the odds of winning are around 25% even if it was a clear violation of contract law. Essentially ADs have no recourse.

Dana

First, I want to say thanks for this site and all the information being shared on the AD pay rate issue. I often work as an AD 5 but stay within region. Was not aware of the variations you describe. The system changes. Often we don't know of problems that could have been prevented until they happen and then there's disagreement. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I say. Normally I take my lumps and learn from them. This time I feel like I know some things to clarify ahead of time. Thanks.

Mellie, you are right about the fact that fed firefighters often may not speak freely even when asked direct questions by the media. State employees have a different setup. The do's and don'ts of the Hatch Act website are more what they deal with. State firefighters can even have unions to represent them. Feds cannot. The Forest Service, the only fed organization I know well, was and is very conservative when it comes to possible litigation. I'm pretty sure it was Jack Ward Thomas (former Chief of the FS) who said your first part:

Fed agencies which are part of the Executive Branch, can only articulate to Congress (Legislative Branch) what is needed to carry out the programs of the Executive Branch.

I don't think most groundpounding firefighters even know they work for the Executive Branch of the government. I didn't until I had been in fire for some time. We're focused on fire and don't think about the larger picture. When the Executive changes, the way congress views the fire Agencies may change as well. Politics...

Mellie, as you described, we were often told to watch out for what we said. When working as an AD now I also have to be very careful. I'm glad this is an anonymous site.

Abs, thanks for this forum and your work. Freedom of speech is a right. How many take it for granted?

Joan

Thanks for writing in Joan. We Abs don't take free speech for granted. It's one reason why we are here.
I hope the nation, the Public whom we serve, can muster the wear-with-all to ask us to speak and listen to us in a new way. We are all in this together.
Ab.

Ab, how do you do a link to a story? www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20020813-9999_1m13blaze.html

GW

I did it. Ab.

Visiting Black Butte was surreal. Part of the Ranch caught fire during the Cache Mt. burn two weeks ago. xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx's front lawn partially burned but their house was protected.

The firefighters and police at BBR did an incredible job! Several houses had brush that burned down both sides but the houses were saved. The two homes that did burn were piles of ash and melted cars, stoves and other metal objects.

So my friends who had anything to do with the Cache Mt. project, a hearty thanks to you all from folks who are really grateful.

Don't bend them, don't break them,
FireBill

AD rates should never have been changed to a lower rate. They were always supposed to be paid at the higher rate. Meaning: If the rate they were hired at in say NH was $11.00 and the rate in CA was $12.00, they should have been paid the higher of the two rates. If they came from CA and went to NH then they should have also been paid $12.00. The higher of the two rates. I ran into one Type 1 team last year that insisted that the folks they traveled with should be paid the lower rate (Or the rate they came with) until I pointed it out to them in the Incident Business Mgmt Handbook.

AD 5s - Should have a letter with them at all times signed by the FS and Forest FMO stating what their rate of pay is going to be for that position. If they go to an area where the pay is less - then they will get the amount indicated in the letter. If they go to area where it is more - then they will get the higher rate. Example: Last year we had a faller boss come in from one of the other Regions. In that Region he was an AD-5 being paid $25.00 p/h. In R-5 faller bosses were AD 4s. Big difference in pay. He didn't know this until he went to check out. He was not a "happy" faller boss. I talked to him and had him contact his dispatcher. The dispatcher sent out a letter stating that he was to make $25.00 p/h. His rate was changed & he will be happy to come back to R-5. (I think this year R-5 faller bosses have been changed to AD5s)

If you know any AD5s out there - tell them to get a letter.

XFSC (AD-5)

On Sunday August 11, 2002, at about 1800 hours, Engine 4453 was involved in a serious vehicle accident on Interstate 15 near the Cajon Pass. Engine 4453 was part of a Tuolumne/Calavaras Unit Strike Team 9440C that was assigned to Southern California to assist in responding and fighting the numerous wildland fires in the area. The accident occurred while the crew was responding to a fire in Lytle Creek in San Bernardino County. The fire engine, a CDF Model #14, left the roadway, rolling several times before coming to rest at the bottom of a 60-foot embankment. Initial investigation into the accident indicates that the incident occurred after the operator experienced a possible mechanical problem. Until the specific mechanical problem can be identified, the Department has issued an order to garage the remaining 10 CDF Model #14’s that were part of Engine 4453’s production schedule.

And this briefing about the accident, those injured and their condition.
Be Safe.
AL

Re all the "jive" from those who would block reducing fuel loading of burned trees after the fire to prevent reburn in 5-10 years: the Oregon lumber industry says they don't want to "log" or "salvage" as the trees would only be pulp and they already have lots of that.

Any comments on what it might take to just get on with implementing the National Fire Plan in the way Ghost Load suggests?

Todd

PS. Ab, please add this on. Sorry to hear about the CDFers who were injured. I worked for CDF a couple of seasons and count some of those guys among my good friends. Hang in there. Get well soon.

Just got a small noontime update on the condition of those injured: Right now it looks like all three will make it. The one hurt the worst had successful surgery last night and this morning and reportedly has feeling in his toes. Ab.

Officer Karen Faciane of the California Highway Patrol said that driver is in critical condition with a broken pelvis. Two other firefighters have moderate injuries. We hope the prognosis is good.

I have heard that CDF contacted and flew down family members to be with the injured crew. Other engines from the strike team stood down from their assignment to be with their brothers and offer support.

Here's a small photo of the rescue on Interstate 15 and Cahon Pass: www.pe.com/digitalextra/environment/fire/photos/cali-300.jpg

And a photo of the slope:
http://southlandwarrior.50megs.com/111-1189_img.jpg

AL

Deerleap

On 8/9 Dana said: "I have even known several ADs that Were sent on assignments at a AD level, completed their assignment, signed their "red dogs" and after returning home received a letter saying they were being paid at a "lower rate" along with a copy of a "red dog" where the AD level had been changed to that lower level".

I've seen this also, but the reason for it was due to the varying AD rates across regions. Different regions have different pay rates. You don't take your region's hourly wage with you, you are paid at the receiving region's pay scale. Perhaps that was the problem. Regardless, the pay rate should be firmly established prior to leaving the home unit. There is also a form we complete upon arrival of all ADs where I work that requires the reasons for hire, fire number, request number, AD position, pay rate, location of hire, whether subsistence is authorized, transportation, etc. It's signed by the hiring official and the original given to the employee. With that form in hand, there shouldn't be any misunderstandings.

Also, on an annual basis (again, where I work), each AD must complete federal and state tax withholding forms along with an I-9 verifying proof of citizenship. The last form may seem a little silly since many of the ADs are retired from the forest they are working for. And, I was informed last week that the point of hiring agency is the one responsible for the OWCP. This bit of info arose when I was talking to the GACC deciding if our unit should be paying transportation for a faller's swamper from CA to CO. In other words, if the point-of-hire for the swamper was at my forest in CA and the swamper was injured in CO, my forest would be liable for the OWCP costs. This was an unusual request in that typically the swamper would have just gone with the faller on the original order. I haven't found any directives on this or clarification yet and would appreciate any other input on the subject.

Hope this info helps.
Ecc1

Ghost Load, you are a true poet, though a bit biased as a far as the jumper stuff goes. Gotta get the digs in whenever possible as far as the lawn darts go, no real harm meant by it. Someone please tell the press/public that HOTSHOTS don't jump out of airplanes.

Spent a lot of time in the Siskiyous my self over the years. An old HS Supt called it an "Outward Bound Program for Firefighters", on the Silver.

Cool spot lots of steep and some big trees to trip, nice rivers etc. Good downslopes make the night burning a little easier if you get that part of the job. Y'all can keep the rotten air (inversions) and poison oak though.

Everybody be safe, God Bless and welcome to "Dirty August".

Backburnfs

Be Safe. Take care of those guys and gals. Ab.

Ghost Load, your posts have made me look at the lands of the Siskiyou in a whole new way. I am enriched. I agree with you on the fire issues, too. Only the rains will end this one and, as a country, we all need to come together to move off the place of inactivity. No action on the National Fire Plan is a choice for catastrophic fire, when it comes to forests thick with vegetation. Lawsuits that keep us inactive can have dire consequences.

Hats off to Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA). She isn't letting partisan politics get in the way of needed change. We have many forests in CA. We can let them burn catastrophically or we can protect habitat, drinking water and interface homes and lives. In California and across the nation, the choice is ours.

Mellie

KN

Right there. Take a look at the Current Fires, 2002 links page and go to the bottom of the CA list. Click Zone 1, the Siskiyou site, then to "Biscuit" and you can find the rationale for the name change. It happens today.

To go with our thread on Fire Names: Does this count as the largest fire to undergo a name change? Know of any others that have changed (aside from the acronym name compliments of American Pie)?

Here's another question, is it the McNally Fire or the McNalley? Spelling differs depending on the site reporting it.
Ab.

Our Public doesn't know that members of the Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, and other govt entities are often prohibited from speaking what they think and what their environmental expertise indicates, by a law. I think it's from the Kennedy era, anyone with the details? Even when asked directly by the media, fire managers - all of whom are practicing environmentalists - often cannot speak freely without the fear that they'll be brought to task for "lobbying".

As long as the large number of environmentalists buy what a small number of preservationists are saying, our forests and communities on their fringe will experience catastrophic fire, fire that is a far cry from fire that occurs in a fuel-reduced forest. Rare and endangered species will die. People may too. Watersheds will be damaged.

We all need to join together for the reasons Ghost Load lays out.

Thanks Ab for the forum. Freedom of speech, what a luxury.

Tahoe Terrie

In spite of lobbying laws, freedom of speech is a right too. Ab.

PSOB and you can call the number there for more info.
http://wffoundation.org/survivors.html#psob

Firescribe

However, Kudos to the IC's - Broyles in particular for a damn good job on a harried-no-win type 1 assignment. Well, we can all name a community at risk - even Central Park burns on occasion.

Sound logic that went into the 1995 federal policy when it stated that "every acre of vegetated land must have a plan".......

And of course we all know of many, many more communities ready to burn. But the benchmark for 2002 is clear: more acres affected by fire as we go indirect and save lives - instead of creating additional "heros" for the next ghost load out. The only implementable plan is Mother Earths. Wait a bit before we judge what is burned, the remnant mosaic is nature's unfettered design, painted by fire it is mother Earth's 's portrait. Maybe we don't need to finish planning for the lands affected, just schedule proposed maintenance. Any guess as to which special interest group would be so stupid to fight the obvious need to treat?

Hard to believe that wilderness fire plans, now in spirit "fire use" - are not up to date. If only we could grab the nations and the media's attention and simply state: "we are all in this together." The only compliant signatory is thunder music and mother earth as signatory.

It's really time for the corporate message to be that safety is in numbers and let's count all the acres affected as acres treated. Wait for the smoke to clear and from there move on. We don't need any more stinking sad preservation stories - prevention is not going to preserve squat when wildfire crosses massive landscapes and landscape scale mega events. Without significant acceptance for wise use fire, we will continue these drills for the rest of the season. Does it really take a village to burn before we can honestly drop the jive talk and focus work on the big picture. Yes, we are all in this together. Same old story, just one more item to get across to the public, right next to the fact that the Forest Service is not the nation's sub-urban fire department. All Logos aside - We really are in this together.

What did the "city" of Oakland do after the the October Oakland Hills fire in 1991? Kudos to CDF for calling it an interface fire, remember the panicked faces on nightly news quips? Hard to believe it could easily reburn. And if they would have interrogated O'leary's cow in 1890, then we would have been generations ahead.

Thanks NorCal Tom - the ghost load respects you. Help spread the word - 80% of the nation's drinking water originates from publicly owned lands - yes, vegetated tracts, all vulnerable to fire.

I look at the pallid, ashen faces of fellow ghost load riders. Shaking heads, voices silent - yet the first IC that says "we are all enjoined" (perhaps on CNN or the TLC)- will the discussions then be open to a higher level.

By the way, Florence and Bisquit are collectively larger than the Tillamook burn(s) which actually occurred over three separate seasons, with lots of reburns during banana-belt intermissions.

And, somewhere out there is an historical document of the Silver Fire in 1987. It covered the initial attack, the daily progress of a large landscape fire with sharp witted features on that era's "present day issues" - clearly a good read, speaks of the tactics and strategy in use today. Anyone seen a recent copy? As history repeats itself it's worth a find. And if you have never seen an airtanker's approach over a roiling ocean ready to drop on a raging redwood fire at salty sundown - just keep the shutter handy, it's quite a sight.

"Ghost Load" out.

The Silver Fire - that burned in the Kalmiopsis wilderness in 1987 with photo of K. leachiana - www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/1999/silver.shtml

There is a good slide show at Yahoo. My sister is in OR on the Florence. She says there are lots of firefighters working to contain it. Says it's very hard work, but she's up to it. Here's the link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/042502colowildfire&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=1&t=

You can look at a group of small photos or at single larger ones by choosing at the top. The 141 photos are mostly from CA and OR fires.

Robbie

On the front page of today's Rocky Mountain News (Sat., August 10th) is a
big article about the aging slurry bombers. It can be accessed through:
RockyMountainNews.com

Colorado Mom

Found it here: Fires Rage as Crews Wait for Newer Planes

I did not know Steve Oustad as well as some of the rest of the Fire Folk did, but I did know him as a very witty and carefree spirit. He valued his friends as if they were his own family and he held his family at the highest respects as well. This week was probably harder for me than last week. I attended John's memorial and then Steve's memorial... However, I knew that was not the end of it all for me.

I got the pleasure of meeting and getting to know some of his family and friends this week as I spent quite some time helping his family write his obituary. Thank you to all who helped me with the info I needed and his family was very pleased with the outcome. I think I learned even more about Steve as the professional Fire guy and the family and the friend that he was to all that knew him.

Anybody who knew Steve, Heather or John were very blessed to have them in their lives if even for a brief moment. And they will always be remembered for their heroism out there on the fire line.

To the two survivors of Engine 11, May God give you the strength to carry on... I know now that if Steve, Heather or John were here, they'd be telling you two to dust your pants off and get back to work... I have learned more than a fair share about all 3 individuals the past 2 weeks and they loved what they did and wouldn't have it any other way. They may be Fallen Firefighters, but their spirits are angels watching over you.

Stay Safe! Watch Out!! Be Careful !! And Take Care....
High Five to Bob for a very touching recollection on Steve the Friend & Family member...

The USFS did a wonderful job at showing the recognition to all 3 firefighters and what they meant to their Forest Service family. Every time I see the Honor Guard, I get choked up because I know they represent the finality that these people are really gone from our Earth, yet I also know that they will live on in spirit...

C'More

Good work on this C'More. Ab.

What stopped these fires was the shorter days, cooler nights, Rh recoveries, and constant vigilant burning out by fire managers who had the sense and wherewithal to do it, creating defensible areas wherever possible, and keeping the fire away from community infrastructures like rivers clean, cool and running in fall - (there were hardly that many resources then.)

Remember the Chrome Fire, October '89 - burned the southern end of the Kalmiopsis with almost no line? Heavy rains ended this wilderness bout. Now the entire wilderness has completely burned through - again on a 15 to 20 year cycle. Think about what happened in the last 20 years.

A swarming tide of humanity moved in from the south, returned from the north and shook off the east - many moved as close to the wilderness boundaries as Forest inholdings and county commissioners would allow. And many of the original landowners from the early 1900's let go of their secluded paradises. Then in the late 1980's, without any public involvement - a prison was built within the vicinity of Fort Dick and the communities around Crescent City exploded. High salaried employees built on those lands near Gasquet, up the Winchuck and Chetco Rivers and the counties of Del Norte and Curry boomed with the tide.

Every year since, the climate has dried and historically rained "a little less." Extended summers lasted longer, and more and more river holes and hiking trails got found. In 1987, over 20,000 firefighters visited Silver alone. Now, it appears the Six Rivers and the SisQ are having international firefighters calling from lands down under. "This forest doesn't burn, it's asbestos as best." At least they sold this to the Siskiyou Smokejumpers when they closed the base. Forever shut down. Not enough fires. You know the same story. Only now its the Air tanker Base - and hurting to think that just last month, the jumpers and pilots returned to relive the many fires of their day.

The mystical folklore land of the Siskiyou's and Kalmiopsis, the Gobi, the Craggies, Mars hole and Seat's dam, Cave Junction, Takilma, Hiouchi, and Gasquet no less - all at risk - all at one time. With really no place to go. Let's put up the right fight this time. Build the contingency lines and hope that they hold when we fire out drainages unless it rains - cause that's what its going to take. A dicothemous future indeed - changed by fire once again - but a little more personal this time. More structures, hooches, cabins and homes, yet fire resources from the 80's and the 90's never were heard. So what did we learn when they disappeared?

In this area, it is too risky to go direct on a mega- fire under the current severe conditions. You have got to hit them as they start - including during the rare lightning gales. Why do you think no wilderness plan was ever finished for this area the Gods call home. -- Because fire is rare, and when it occurs - it is rarely inconsequential.

The rains will come, and the fire will go out. Evacuations of new ownerships and historic generational land barons will all be affected. What will we learn. When the water runs black out of the Chetco into the taps of Brookings and Harbor - when the Smith gets jammed with swollen jams and the salmon return - all will be changed. This is a lifetime event of historic proportions.

Be safe on this fire, geography is not on your side. When the fog doesn't come in on hot summer nights - stay away from the flaming eastward raging fire fronts.

When it's all over what will stop it from happening again? Reopen the Siskiyou smokejumper base? Heck - that's too damn dangerous and everyone knows we were too crazy back then- but we did stop a few, big ones no less.

All of the surrounding communities must now think of recovery and mitigation of the next 10 year event. But its hard to think clearly when surrounded by fire. Wildfire is very unforgiving to people in the Siskiyous. Always keep that in mind - it's the great natural challenger that evens the score between pristine and divine.

Be safe - pray for the rain. Begin making plans to protect what you can. Now I know why the little Kalmiopsis leachiana grows so wild and remote. Walk the Craggies after the burn. It will be a bloom. Like its sister the Gobi so remote but beautiful in its loneliness.

Take care my firefighting buds. Pray for the rains, the weather to change. All we can do is avoid and be safe. Let it burn. I know it is crass to think of it this way, but the conditions exist that allow for nothing else to stop this angry beast. Burn out all you can; sate the dragon with its own life fluid. Put the forest back into a maintenance mode; a model of flame. Nature holds the rules in her hand and she claims they must be light hand on the land. Take care, beautiful sunsets, gagging in tanoak scum. At times, even in the deep woods alone, I can get mad because no one can see me crying and my screams go unheard.

Be safe. Pray for the rain. Burnout and get out - this one is nature's bane. Apologies to those that look with disdain upon these words- but history tells us the Siskiyou cries fire when we forget how it lies.

the ghost load

Just got back home from a trip to central Oregon which included a very productive and safe couple of weeks on the fireline with crews, engines, heavy iron, and air ops.

Am very happy that fed managers at all levels are supporting the fire organization. Its challenging for a manger to do this when faced with getting "targets" accomplished on the home front. An extended thanks to all managers who support the fire service.

Earlier discussions on fuel treatments are right on track as predicted, its rumor that all western states are taking a hard look at the managing hazardous fuels in support fo the fire plan, mitigating environmental impacts, and minimizing litigation issues. I pulled some links for Daschle that readers may find interesting.

Daschle in November of 2001, did he or someone know what could happen?
http://daschle.senate.gov/~daschle/pressroom/releases/01/11/2001B19552.html

Daschle in July 2002,
http://daschle.senate.gov/~daschle/front_070802.html
http://daschle.senate.gov/~daschle/front_071902.html

"The Black Hills Forest Prevention Agreement was included in the final defense appropriations bill and signed into law by the President. The locally negotiated agreement between the Forest Service, the State of South Dakota, community officials, the timber industry and environmental groups will allow thinning to take place in the Norbeck Wildlife Preserve and Beaver Park."

http://daschle.senate.gov/~daschle/pressroom/releases/02/07/2002718C57.html

Finally the appropriations bill.
It took about 2 hours worth of net search but here is the skinny in black and white! The document is a pdf file and the pages of interest can be found on 45+. Happy reading! www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/billrept/fy02/02supp_enrolled_bill_hr4775.pdf

r3firetaz

Although they are usually not aware of it ADs are not provided most of the benefits which are mandatory for nearly all other employers in the USA. I have known quite a few ADs that were not even covered by workman's comp. when they were injured fighting fire. The legal argument was that they "could have been sent home anytime" so there was no guarantee that they would have been working if they were uninjured. In one case injures left the crew short and they could not quickly find replacements so the whole crew was sent home early. What a slap in the face! We too often still treat ADs as if they would be unemployed "drifters" if they were not fighting fire. I have known very few that did not have other full time jobs that they put at risk when called up to serve. And I know hundreds of ADs. Of course injured ADs too often not only don't get workman's comp. but lose their job back home as well due to their injury. ADs also can't expect unemployment insurance credit to accrue during time spent serving as a firefighter. Most states count that time as "vacation" time since the reply to state inquiries about employment by the Feds is "we have no record of that individual working for the federal government". I have even known several ADs that Were sent on assignments at a AD level, completed their assignment, signed their "red dogs" and after returning home received a letter saying they were being paid at a "lower rate" along with a copy of a "red dog" where the AD level had been changed to that lower level. No recourse available since those "offices" which generated the documents are gone after the fire is demobed and the office workers are dispersed.

It just seems like we treat ADs (and AT pilots) like the "fire gods" bastard children. If vollies and contractors employees end up being covered by death benefits and ADs do not...something is very wrong.

Sorry about the rant Ab....but this looks like yet another thing the families of ADs will be screwed out of. I hope I am wrong.
Dana

• One is change in law.
• Two is change in contractual requirements (we mandate that contractors
  have liability insurance, but do not mandate life insurance for their
  employees) .
• Three is personal accountability......work for the company that provides
  insurance (even if pay is lower) or take some of that pay and use it to
  buy insurance.

Thanks for writing in Phil. Ab.

Don't feel alone, I think that the problems which you face are a nation-wide situation. Many rural depts. simply lack the time and money to face the "worst case scenario". Plus if it's not within the firefighting cultural norm of the area, it is often labeled as "something that happens someplace else" and is dismissed as a novelty. This is a comfortable yet narrow way in which to respond to issues which face all depts. at one time or another.

Keep pushing the message Okie.
Fire Safety Sam

Thanks for the answer OFG. I know that the family of my friend Karen Savage (a vollie out of Junction City) who died on a fire at Redding in '99 got benefits. Hmmmmmmmm. At least I think they did.

I need to learn more about the specifics of the federal bill with respect to other contract firefighters. I just know it covers AirTanker families. Wanda Nagel, an airtanker widow, has been working hard to rally the AT community and others to get legislators to address this issue of benefits. She's been instrumental in bringing change in CA with a similar bill that allows children of ff contractors who die in the line of duty to go to a CA university for free.

For a first hand explanation of why these benefits are important for AT families and why the system is not working, read what Diana says: http://www.airtanker.com/wwwboard/messages/9976.html. These families are falling through the cracks in spite of trying to plan for the worst. At one of the recent memorial services I heard that the collection for the two families amounted to less than $400. That probably doesn't even pay gas to get to the service.

OFG, the current state of affairs is not the fault of the FS, state fire, or the fire organization. The rules that govern hiring and hiring the cheapest as well as the chain-of-command issues that go along with hiring contractor or AD or FS (or CDF) are complicated. We could all educate ourselves a little, though, and support our fire families who need it by changing the laws.

As well, fed firefighters could join FWFSA and collectively work toward improving the lives of "forestry technicians" and "range technicians" AKA wildland firefighters.

Mellie

As I read it:
Public Safety Officers' Benefits, administered by the Department of Justice. "....pay a benefit to specified survivors of public safety officers found to have died as the direct and proximate result of a personal injury, traumatic injury involving external force sustained in the line of duty...." "...A public safety officer is defined to be any individual serving a public agency in an official capacity, with or without compensation, as a law enforcement officer, police, corrections, probation, parole and judicial officer, firefighter, rescue squad member or ambulance crew member. A public agency means an agency of the US, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico , and any territory...of the US, or any unit of State or local government."

As interpreted to date...... people working under private contract are not "employees".

This seems to be a matter of law.....work to change the law if you don't like it.

Perhaps contracts should include a clause that mandates companies provide insurance for their employees.

I would not work for an employer that did not provide life insurance (freedom of choice). Additionally, I choose to purchase additional insurance on my own (again, freedom of choice).

OFG

Bits and pieces from the Pines Fire.

CDF Engine 3174 was reported as being one of the engines involved in a burn over by LA TV news, but there were no injuries to crew personnel or the engine, per their ranger unit.

One fire engine from So Cal was sent home by a safety officer for violating operational safe speeds. While this seems extreme to some, our job is to go home after we put the fire out. A crew in the hospital or worse, or a totaled engine does no one any good.

Engines and crews are making some good stands to protect homes, despite the extreme fire behavior at times.

Everyone be safe. No brush, structure, or other inanimate object is worth any firefighters life.

FyrEtr.

As to the inmate crews I can relate to those trying to enter the fire service, it is frustrating to see all these prisoners taking away possible employment, CDF alone runs 250 or so crews, x 15 (min staffing) = 3750 more firefighter positions that theoretically would be available just in California, and that doesn't include inmate engine crews at the prisons. However I think that the reality would probably be about 1/2 that and much of those would probably be like the Fed AD crews for an overall decrease in the number of crews available, I do find it interesting that there are many limits on what these crews can do in regards to other industries but not in fire.

That said, these crews do provide quality work and we would be paying for them in prison or on the line and the value on the line is certainly greater than them sitting around a jail cell. I have also run a County inmate crew for project work with the Forest Service and must say that the benefits to society are good, they go through a strict selection process and by being part of a crew avoid being placed in with the more hardcore prisoners, I don't have any evidence to support this theory but I would guess that in addition to cheap labor a higher percentage of crewmembers return to being productive members of society when released compared to those in the general prison population. While I have never asked, many inmates have volunteered that they are in on drug related charges which makes me think that if drugs are ever legalized those fire agencies using inmates may have some tough choices on how to fill their crews.

I am familiar with the CDF and NDF crews and must say they do a good job, I don't believe they should be called Type 1 crews for many reasons (just read the description in the Fireline handbook and that should sum it up) but they are definitely worth having out there on the line. BC Davis I must say the NDF cooking crews are excellent, not to knock CDF whose crews do a good job as well but the best Pork chops I've ever eaten were in Elko, NV from one of the NDF crews, those guys should run a restaurant when they're not on fires.

Sammi I can't speak for all agencies but my experience with the Forest Service was that newbies were encouraged to ask questions and to speak up if they are uncomfortable, this is for safety and because thats the best way to learn how to do things right (sometimes for both the newbie and the supervisor). I was lucky when I started out to have open minded supervisors who encouraged these kinds of questions, and when I became a supervisor I tried to carry on this idea. I've never had one of my firefighters refuse an assignment I gave them but have had several occasions where I needed to explain why we were doing something (mostly my fault for not explaining how and why better). Another thing I learned from others was to debrief after each incident to get those who didn't speak up at the time to get a chance after the fact. I know I'm not the only one that does this because I learned from others.

Well I'm missing what looks to be a historic year in fire but I must say at least my knees don't hurt for the first time in many years. Be careful out there, its only August.

Fedfire

He was with the Opal Vol Dept and was burned while fighting a wildfire.
Thanks again for all your work.

Osage okie

Additional information: The firefighter who died on August 6, 2002 from burns received while fighting a prairie fire (Klink Knob Fire in Meade County SD) was David Martin, age 48. Tribute is being paid to Firefighter Martin at:
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/dhtml/inside-usfa/ffmem.cfm

Our condolences. Ab.

www.signonsandiego.com

Satellite Images:
Pines & McNally smoke: www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Current/FSMHSusCA219_N5L.jpg
Florence & Sour Biscuit smoke: www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Current/FSMHSusOR219_N5L.jpg
Larger versions can be found here, www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Current/ 10th and 12th links down the list.

Firescribe

LAVE

Were the waste-to-energy generators in CA portable?
Over a decade ago the MN legislature forced our nuclear generator owners into signing on to a alternative energy project of growing aspen on marginal ag land for the purpose of generating electricity in years to come (in exchange for onsite waste storage permit extensions). They now claim the first plantations which are beginning to mature are too expensive to burn and are selling the sticks to International Paper for pulp. They base their argument on the total cost of "fuel" including transport to existing coal burning plants. None of the waste to power units I have seen was portable and so over the road transport "drives" (no pun intended) the cost way too high to be profitable. I wonder however if "portable" generation units would change that. It makes no sense to haul the fuel to the generator when the energy can be generated on or close to the site and "transported" over the existing "grid". If we are serious about fuel load reduction the question is not so much if the biomass being removed from the forest can be "burned" to produce electricity for a profit. Rather it is "does it lower the cost of fuel load reduction programs?" It may also make the programs more acceptable to "environmental" groups and so help to remove them as the obstacles they now seem to be. If properly coordinated, the fuel would be cut and skidded to landings close to a powerline. The fuel would be allowed to dry a bit to increase its btu potential before a portable generator unit was hauled in and began burning the piled "debris". After one site's waste was gone, the generator unit would move on to another.

I am currently involved with our local technical school, a local utility, and several local business' in a waste-to-energy cogeneration project. Our city also has a waste-to-energy unit for regional disposal of municipal solid waste. None of these projects "makes" money. They do however provide several dozen good jobs in the community and cost less than the alternatives...when taken as a whole and carefully integrated with the need to dispose of a waste product. I think this idea may have potential to provide better employment opportunity to firefighters (off season) and hasten the needed fuel reduction program. It may be off topic for this forum though.

Dana

Thanks for the info BC. I still have questions, but maybe chat some night. Heard I just missed you last night. What a long way we have come since meeting back east!

Everyone: Here's something I hope all will read and consider doing.

U.S. benefits sought by kin of tanker pilots. (The acronym in case you hear it later is PSOB, Public Safety Officers' Benefits Program.)
www.redding.com/news/national/past/20020803nat040.shtml

Families of police officers and firefighters receive death and disability benefits under the Public Safety Officers' Benefits Program, established in a 1976 law. The program provides an inflation-adjusted $259,000 one-time cash award. Qualified recipients also may receive tax credits and college tuition benefits for their children.

We can help our air support folks. Please print this off, copy it for friends and ask all to send it to their congress people with a request to support the legislation. Their children and wives deserve this.

Mellie

A number of cogeneration power plants were in operation 8-12 years ago in California. These plants, often in conjunction with saw mill operations, created electricity utilizing small trees (8" dbh down to 5" on the stump to a 3" or smaller top), wood waste, and agricultural waste as hog fuel. When electricity was deregulated in Ca., the market for this operation dropped out. Many, if not most, of these plants closed. The cost of producing this electricity greatly exceeded the value received for the electricity generated. When Ca was experiencing an energy crisis last summer, the state encouraged a number of these plants to come back on line. As the crisis declined, these firms again found themselves in a money losing situation.

There is great potential for utilizing this material for hog fuel, but, the costs are higher than the value received. These plants were very environmentally friendly. Strict air pollution regulations resulted in minimal emissions. A number of these plants remain intact but idle. It is a shame that this material can not be economically utilized for electricity production.

DAS

with ndf, we spend several days teaching the s-110,130,190 to the inmates before fire season. we also take time from our projects to do line cutting and saw work. my crew is well taught and most really want to fight fire.

we are not a camp crew and will not be until i cant climb mountains anymore. we do have a fire support crew, the do the cooking. they do a great job and i have never heard anyone complain. after eating MRE,s who would ( grin )? i do our best to keep my crew away from free people. not that i worry about my crew doing something but because most people who hasnt worked with a inmate crew doesnt know how to react to them. sometimes i feel like a leper but i have gotten used to it. we also keep the male crews from the female inmate crews. no need to create a bigger mess.

anymore questions feel free to ask. we are not here to take over the fire fighting world, only to do a little fire ass kicking in our own little piece of the pie.

BC Davis

As I was browsing through theysaid, I saw the message from SoCal Capt about the link to CPF about the Lassen Engine 11. Even though it said I needed IE6 or Netscape 6, I tried to view it. Curious that it is becoming commonplace to have sites that exclude browsers that aren't IE 6 or Netscape 6 compliant. Is this the way that Microsoft and Netscape (AOL) think things are going?

I'm certainly glad Wildlandfire.com doesn't think so, or I would be forced to drop the site from my most favorite list! Thanks for keeping this site compatible with my old browser and from what I can see, as many operating systems and browsers as you possibly can!

Joleen.

Well, for many different reasons, we've tried to maintain the compatibility you mention. We understand our audience stems from many sources and locations. We know that many federal/state/other clients are force fed out-of-date images and programs from their vendors along with their computers. We also realize that many of our readers are using dialup connections and don't have the bandwidth those in the larger cities have to download all the newest updates. As of tonight, a mere 12.7% of our users over the last month use IE 6 and a paltry 0.75% use Netscape 6 or higher. Give or take a few, that's only amounts to a 14% total.

All I can say is we try! And that the California Professional Firefighters, among other sites, must be missing 86% of their intended audience. Thanks for the comment. Ab.

www.cpf.org/main_index.jsp?StoryID=221&DisplayType=3
(requires Internet Explorer 5+ or Netscape 6+ & you don't need the macromedia flash player!)

I hope we all stay safe and can all come out and "chat" when this season
is over.

SoCal Capt

DL

Heard rumors that happened yesterday. Know of no reports. Ab.

I don't know about burning cannibus bales to generate power, but I have given a great deal of thought to ways of getting rid of miles of tangled, small trees in the pine forests of E. Washington and Oregon.

If we can't sell the little stuff, perhaps we could give it away. I have always thought that perhaps it could be used for hog fuel. Not that hogs really need this kind of stuff, but that we could use it to fuel semi portable, small power generators. Perhaps the National Forests could sell the power and pay for some of the environmental compliance costs. Why just burn it? I have probably burned enough woody biomass over the past 25 years to light the city of Seattle for a year. I have always felt bad about wasting this stuff.

I still believe that the main issue with this buildup of fuel is economics. Find the markets and human ingenuity will find a way to make it happen in an environmentally acceptable manner.

Hamid

If there are incamp crews, and these crews do go on fires sometimes when needed, presumably they have fire-experienced sups? Would have to be a capt at least?

The CDC crew that worked briefly at Five Waters was clearly fire experienced and worked as a unit, but the recent posts have got me wondering about experience and training and supervision of the cook (or incamp) crews.

Firehorse, you turn off those big south-facing fans, Ya hear! No more smokin' us out!

Mellie

drug busts,,, got a good story there. The hand crew I was on spent 28 days staged in an area with "high Potential" being staged at a heli-base was getting very very boring all day, we looked forward to going and stacking sticks (we were on the verge of going nuts). One day the district FMO gave the helibase a call for an assignment for the crew i was on, we were the only non local crew. The local county Sheriff's office recently had a drug bust in the hills a stand of marijuana and they needed help packing it out. Well we jumped at the chance to get out of the helibase, we weren't told what we were doing until after we left. The place was safe and were briefed about it before we went in. A short walk (.25-.50 miles) in the little draw. The grower had this interesting little (150 or so plants is what we were told) set up. So we picked up the stuff and packed it out. It was great the cops were all joking about it, "hey you want to burn this!?" We all had a good laugh, the cops wanted to know if we wanted a crew pic. Hell yeah some folks said, so we did, the cops took our pics with the stuff in the bags, for our entertainment (and their documentation probably). But here's the funniest part when we got back into town and hit the store, we drove past the Sheriff's office on the way back to the helibase and the truck that we loaded the contraband into was parked outside, no security, with all the contents in the back of the truck still. It was just funny to see.

mnm561

I had the chance to wear that goofy full brim yellow hard hat on the Catalina Hotshots in 1978, work on the Helicopter and the Palisades Engine. A brand new Model 70.

Of course, the reason I left was to become a Real Wildland firefighter in Ca. (really the cuts started in R-3, I bailed) Interesting bunch in the Helicopter shot, Maybe Ab could forward my E-mail address to You. Old friends are great to find! Thanks for the photo & logo of yesterdays gone bye.

niedermeyer

Smoke in Five Waters? That's what ya get for not stopping by last time Mellie!

Firehorse

I was eating lunch in the airport in Denver today on my way back from the Long Mesa fire at Mesa Verde. Was wearing my unit teeshirt and nomex pants, etc, when a guy came up and asked me if I had earned them (the clothes). I said, yeah, I guess I had, and he said "I just wanted to say thank for all the hard work you've done." and then he walked away. Now, I've spent the summer sitting on a steel folding chair (radio operator) and some time playing archaeology resource advisor and actually put out some sagebrush and a burning tree, so I didn't think I had earned his thanks. Then I realized he was thanking me for all the hard work the rest of YOU have been doing...so I figured I'd better pass it on to all of you who've been working harder than I have.

ya'll take care and stay safe...the dragon is out there, but we know what to do.

fire-archy

(and Mesa Verde is NOT all burned up, just mostly. the attractions are still ok, thanks to some hard work by hotshots, Type IIs and a buncha pink stuff-dropping aircraft)

I'll give you the whole skinny on DNR Camp Kitchens if you want, I'll ask my friendly neighborhood Ab to pass along my e-mail addy if you're that curious.

For everyone else, the reason they have stand-up tables is that it boils down to moving a large # of people through a small space in a short amount of time, and that chairs take up space that the mobile units just don't have.

I was at fire last year that originally had a contract kitchen on site, which failed to not only keep up with the demand, but also failed a health and a Labor and Industries electrical inspection. Their morning specialty was scrambled eggs with coconut and pineapple. yum-yum. (This contractor was an emergency hire, and was not then and is not now on the contract list.) A DNR kitchen arrived to help out. The first meal they served, someone in line behind me complained about having to stand to eat. I pointed out to that fella that he could always go eat at the other kitchen if he wanted to sit down. *grin*

FireBill

When I was with CDF, as a seasonal engine slug, we worked around the inmate crews. You had a small list of does and don't. One of the major don't is to ask them what they were in for. We could talk about the job, weather, sports and such but it was discouraged to get to friendly. As I remember we weren't supposed to give them anything but food and water, only if the asked. No making phone calls for them or mailing letters or stuff like that, and we weren't supposed to receive things for them such as mail or phone conversations and pass it along to them. Also if they did anything above this or asked us to break these rules we were suppose to report them to their Crew Capt. or the CDC officers.

Just one point of humor, on a fire in 1988 they had the women's crews come into camp, now that is a site unto itself. However you throw in about a dozen male inmate crews into the mix and you have a floor show that I have never experienced again. All the male crews were bedded down, or on the crew busses when the female crews came into camp to eat and sack out. The Calf. CDC makes very certain the two genders of inmate crews never contact each other but the looks, cat calls, strutting, and smell of hormones in the air was something to behold. The electricity was measurable and the CDC people let it go on for a few moments and then they settled the scene down, but what a show! I know that CDF used to run to female camps, one was Rainbow Camp (location unknown) and the other was Porto La Cruz, I think.

Yes, Firepup91, some of these folks look very mean and rough, both men and women! But for the most part they do a real good job. And on the other hand, the Capt. that run the crews are no pushovers either. One of the Capt. I had came out of the camps and man what a !@#%^&* he was, we got a taste of what it would be like on an inmate crew. AH, but that's a whole different set of tales, to be told at a later time.

L.A.V.E.

Thanks, bb. That works for the R5 FAM main page. Instead of http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/fire/ or http://www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us, you make it http://166.5.1.221/fire/.

But it doesn't work for the links within that R5 fire web that are for north ops, for example: http://www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/nops.htm cannot be reached by going to http://166.5.1.221/nops.htm. However, hopefully once you enter R5 FAM, you'll be able to navigate around to the linked Intelligence and Information pages from there. You can get to the current incidents by using the small lefthand menu that names them-- or by finding them via their forests and entering the numbers as outlined in bb's post.

I am not having trouble with the links for Intel and Info from the R5 FAM page now, but that may be because the system is not in what I call its "glitch mode". In the past, sometimes I have had problems and sometimes not. That's the frustrating part, that you never knew what would work.

Time will tell if entering thru http://166.5.1.221/fire/ will consistently work for finding north and south ops sit reports.

PC, Danny, Todd, FireWolf and others, maybe you could try these different routes from your home computer and see if they work. It would be nice if we could consistently get in that way - and once in navigate the rest of the R5 fire website. Good info there.

Ab, thanks for updating the links page to the new R5 FAM url with numbers. How about the "sit report by GACCs" page for those wanting news from North and South Ops? Hmmmmmmm.

bb, thanks again! All in the service of getting a new and updated Forest Service web.

Mellie

I modified the links page and also the sit reports by GACCS (under news on the links page). Everybody, good teamwork. Ab.

It's been a long season already, and it is maybe only 1/2 over for our crew. We have just been running 14's and haven't had a station day since May, other than coming home for refurbishing. Not that I am complaining.

Anyway, about inmates: Great they are cheaper, and don't steal too many FF jobs. About Washington's DNR inmate crews: Yes they do most of the camp work and are decent cooks, but what's up with the standing dining area? The last thing I want to do after 16 hours of work is stand up to eat my dinner. As far as California's inmate crews, they seem to look more "hardened" for lack of a better term. Seeing some guy that is 6' 5" and 275 lbs. is intimidating enough for some people, then add the fact that the person is a criminal and no one knows or has the guts to ask "so what are you in for?" and God forbid you call these poor souls Cons.

Also what about the cases of harassment and worse involving inmates? I have personally seen cases where either male or female inmate crews have harassed female members of crews that I have been on. While appropriate actions were taken, it left a sour taste in my mouth, that isn't easy to wash out.

I am not sure of the validity or the fire name, but I heard a rumor earlier this season about a fire camp where there was a rape and a stabbing. I couldn't say whether inmate crews were involved or not but there is no place in the outside world for that behavior let alone fire camp.

Anyway got to go enjoy my R&R. Thanks AB for all the great work, hope all is well.

Firepup91

I will try to clarify as I suppose that it has been awhile since any logging has been done down in God's Country (Orange County).

First of all I live on the dry side of the Cascades in the Pacific Northwest, So burning cannibus production is not usually a problem here. Besides smoking is bad for one's health.

With regard to my third sentence, timber companies need an incentive to wade into the morass of redtape in order to even consider cutting in a National Forest. With today's global wood prices, hauling pecker poles hundreds of miles to a processor just doesn't pay the bills. Timber companies may make a profit if they can take a number of large (Some would say old growth) trees from every acre of pecker poles. The more big trees (punkins) taken, the more worth while the timber sale is to the timber company. If the government agrees in the timber sale prospectus that it will sweeten the deal by cleaning up the logging slash (as opposed to the timber company footing the bill) then this may entice the timber company to bid on the marginal timber sale.

I don't see the big old trees as the problem, it's the overcrowded pecker poles (and new housing tracts) that are causing most of the problems.

Hamid

www.news-miner.com

Fairbanks Fred

www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/sat/news/

AL

SoCal FF

Crew Foreman (Permanent State Emp)  $3100 salary/mo (roughly DOE)
Adult/Juvenile inmate crew              3.60/hr per inmate
DOC officer                            20.83/hr
DOC Sergeant                           22.99/hr
DOC Lieutenant                         34.15/hr
DSHS Employees                         19.37--27.32 depending on position

"Plume dominated fire behavior" on the SW Oregon fires has those of us to their south eating smoke. Firehorse, can't you keep your Florence and Sour Biscuit smoke in your neck-o-the-woods! Five Waters on the western side of the Trinity Alps is currently socked in as thick as it got on the Big Bar Complex when fire was on the ridge above us. I have heard that the coast - Humboldt Bay - is smoky and that the Reggae on the River folks in Southern Humboldt near Garborville have much more to smoke than they bargained for!

Mellie

i tell ya what, if you can prove that inmate crews make up the majority of all wildland fire fighters, i will agree to your comments. we really are just a small portion of ff that make up the big picture. cdf probably has the biggest number of inmate crews. so run your numbers and get back to me. there are far more important topics than this to let this pissing match continue.

BC Davis

I am still having major problems. And advising my old grandmother and grandpa, or trying to when I'm home between assignments. Smokier than all getout here on the northcoast today.

With all the fires burning in R5, we need the info more than ever, both the fire crews and the public. I wonder if there is any way to transfer the R5 site to the main FS internet to get rid of the glitches. Is it really some problem with a security program? If it is as random as it appears, how do you fix it?

Todd

www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequoia/incident/Thinningproject1.htm

Here are two more old photos that were taken 90 years apart from the very same location. They show what the sequoias looked like there in 1890 before the removal of fire from the environment and in 1970 after fire suppression practices had been in place. These photos are large in size and take a little bit to load, but good to illustrate the argument for thinning.

www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequoia/incident/1890.gif
www.r5.fs.fed.us/sequoia/incident/1970.gif

The point is that crown fires can kill the sequoias and make sterile the soils of other forests that undergo catastrophic fire. We can't just let fire "do its thing". We need to reduce fuels in the forests.

Tahoe Terrie

B.C. Davis, thanks for thinking about me. I will be in Nevada this week and I will try to get info while I'm there. If I slip up, I look you up. Thanks again.

Ab, all the Abs out there and all the rest of the visitors, thanks for the good content, thoughtful in/out put and the rest. I really enjoy the site and the information. Be careful so every one can go home to their family and friends.

L.A.V.E.

Please do not misunderstand my last note. I am not in any way advocating "turning lose anyone who can cut down a tree on our national forest forests". What I am saying is we need to manage our forests. R5's forest management program has almost completely stopped. The Sierra Club's stated goal (in print) is to stop all "logging" on National Forests. That approach is not practical and not one that indicates a willingness to discuss the issues and come up with solutions. We have thinned thousands of acres "from below" (taking the smaller competing trees and leaving the larger) on my district. This removes fuel ladders as well as competition between trees. The thinned areas survived fires while the unthinned did not. Thinning is not a "half cocked plan". I, too, do not advocate "half cocked" management of our forests. I also do not advocate full scale "plowing ahead". That was one of my points. In my last post, I mentioned how long it takes to complete NEPA documents and that it will take years/decades to accomplish this goal. Massive vegetation manipulation, even if authorized, can not be accomplished quickly. Mills, loggers and truckers are no longer there to accomplish a large scale increase in commercial harvesting. A limited number of contractors are available to accomplish other forms of vegetation management. It will take decades to accomplish this task.

My point was that it was encouraging to see that support for responsible forest management appears to be growing and that if our forests are to survive, we need to practice responsible forest management. My comment about the Sierra Club spokesperson was that conditions are not the same as 100 years ago. Fires can not be permitted to burn across the landscape as they once did for many reasons. Firefighter and public safety being but one of them. Forest management is more than letting fires burn or putting them out.

Having extensive experience in both resource management and firefighting, I would never advocate anything that would "belittle" the memories of fallen firefighters. Practicing reasonable forest management can help protect our forests and reverse the effects of 90 plus years of fire suppression.

Ab, thanks for the opportunity to present various points of view on this site.

DAS

A number of helo photos taken on the Shelly Fire which is now 100% contained.

www.r5.fs.fed.us/sixrivers/incident/shelly/gallery/helicopters/index.html

If you can't get onto the R5 website via this link, consider entering through the Fires 2002 site, link at the top of theysaid. (Are people still having problems?)

However, I do not understand the logic for proposing only an 18 month period, beginning next summer, to accomplish these goals. It took 100 years to get the west into the situation it is in. The problem can not be solved in 18 months. 18 months would be a good start--but only a start. Just preparing environmental documentation required under NEPA can take 1 year, if all the specialist areas are readily available to provide input and all goes well. Preparing and awarding contracts, be they commercial timber removal or service, can take another 6 months or more. 18 months is a starting point.

Responsible forest management, including responsible use of prescribed fire, is the only method by which any real headway will be made. I hope that whatever plan is proposed by these Senators does not bring with it the expectation that 18 months will do the trick.

Environmentalists, such as Chad Hansen mentioned in the article, claim that this is a ploy for "extracting timber and not about reducing the fire risk." How many firefighters must die, how many homes lost, how many billions of dollars spent, and how many millions of acres of fire ravaged forests must there be before people such as the Sierra Club's Sean Cosgrove cease making statements like "the public must come to recognize fire as a natural way that forests are renewed"? Fires of today are far more intense than those of 100 years ago. Mr. Hansen and Mr. Cosgrove are terribly misinformed. If forests in California and the west are to survive, responsible forest management must become a priority.

DAS

I finally found a couple of photos from 1976, when I was a member of the now-defunct Catalina Hotshots, on the Coronado NF.

The first photo, hotshotheli, was at the beginning of the season when our Nomex pants shipment hadn't yet arrived. The photo was taken at the Sollers Point Helitack base, near the Santa Catalina Ranger Station. I hear the helibase is also now closed.

Photo #2, helicrash, was taken shortly after a Gazelle plowed into the trees. No one was hurt, and while our crew was "guarding" the helicopter until the feds arrived, one of the guys decided to have his photo taken. Note the trees directly behind the blades, chopped off like a lawnmower.

I've also included a scan of our logo patch.

papa

Thanks, I put them on Crew5, Heli8, and Logo5 photo pages. Ab.

I heard that personnel were ordered off the line on the Pine Fire in SoCal, on information from the fire behavior specialist, on Friday. Sounds like we are learning that it is better to give up acreage over lifes.

More Calif OES Engine (structure protection?) Strike Teams have been ordered up to supplement equipment and personnel already there.

FYI..Some California Firefighters and Police Officers are bicycling to NY to show their support for those lost on September 11. The are braving the Mojave Desert and temperatures of 115 degrees plus on I-40, heading into Arizona, 8-3-02. They have a website: www.patriotdaybiketour.org if anyone wants to keep track of them. They would probably appreciate a wave or honk from passing personnel.

FyrEtr

If anyone has questions about the CA State hiring practices, I suggest they look at the spb.ca.gov or dpa.ca.gov websites. For CA folks service retirement information, look at calpers.ca.gov.

Ab, I hope this clarifies some folks misconceptions.
Northzone5

Your post, in my opinion, is completely ridiculous. We have a GS-9 position open on our Forest right now. It is true this is the 6th or 7th time this position has been flown. There have been six people who have accepted the job, but once they come out to the area, they turn around and reject the position because the cost of living is too expensive.

It's ridiculous to say positions are not being filled because color of their skin or their gender is not right. Here's a fact. Out of the 37 management positions on our Forest, 5 are minorities and32 of those positions are WHITE MALE.

You say, "Stop discriminating against WHITE MALES." -- Give me a break.

Ab, HOPE YOU ARE HAVING A HAPPY BIRTHDAY.
Thanks for the great web page.....

Longboard

Senators band together behind forest fire plan

"The senators -- 12 Republicans plus Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif. -- identified
23 million acres of federal land constituting a "vast, dry tinderbox" that
could ignite at the careless drop of a match. The 23 million acres are
scattered among the 50 states but concentrated in a few. California has 7
million acres, including the entire Sierra Nevada range, the Lake Tahoe
area, the Plumas National Forest and the Lassen and Sequoia National
Parks."

Some sense at last. The catastrophic fire that I have seen this summer - massive fire that made the soil sterile, left not one legacy tree alive for miles and destroyed habitat that was home to rare and endangered species - indicates to me that we need to try something different than our current impasse.

How much experience do you have with the programs you slammed as "WHITE MEN NEED NOT APPLY"?

I am a STEP/SCEP hire (and granted I am female- but for my position 4 out of 5 of the applicants (not a fire position) were women). I have seen people who have been temps, seasonals, and fresh college grads brought in as PFEs under this program. I have seen white males, white females, and some minorities hired. Out of the 6 SCEPS I personally know hired into resources positions- 5 of us opted to get red carded and support fire in our various areas. This is a valuable program for our agencies and I pray narrow minded people like you don't tarnish the image of such a valuable program.

I guess I am lucky for I really haven't met any managers that hire for statistics rather than quality.

Watch how you slam a program for we are your future managers- don't insinuate we were hired as statistics.

BLMgirl

p.s. Yes, you hit a nerve- I have had a few people tell me I was hired b/c I was a female. That's just good 'ol boy bull....

It has been reported that the point the engine went off the road was 11 feet wide. It was 2:10 am and lots of smoke due to burn out operations they were supporting. Earlier reports said the engine plunged 800 feet. Sheriff Search and Rescue used GPS to map the scene and came up with approximately 1200 feet point to point. Instead of rolling, the engine went end over end, eventually separating both axles, motor and transmission. The picture of the engine in this weeks Pioneer Press was vivid. How on earth those two survived that wreck was a miracle. Other than the green paint, you would not recognize it to be anything other than a twisted ball of metal. I'm not sure if the Pioneer Press is on line but I believe so. The article showed pictures and a topo map giving pertinent locations.

My heart goes out to those who have lost and to those who have survived.

NorCalFF

Here's the Lassen NF website photo of Engine 11 crew and their engine. The photo site is apparently still under construction. Also Memorial Services News Release. Ab.

As for the graduated or reduced retirement benefits, does anyone remember the story of the Park Service seasonal employee from back east who retired after 30 or 40 years of service? I remember a huge outcry in the media that this person was not covered by our retirement system. I'll bet this would be the case if our system did that to someone working in primary fire position also. Failing to provide adequate retirement for our employees will bring a whole new set of issues down the road.

ATTA_GAL
The Work Capacity Test is simply designed to measure a persons ability to perform at a specific level of exertion for a specific period of time. There are three levels to this test for just the reason you state. The test should be and is commensurate with the type of position and physical exertion required for a given job on the fireline, not just what the persons job title is. The Work Capacity Test certainly measures one's capability to drag hose, carry hose packs, perform in a sustained line dig, etc. Did the step test do that? No. Did the 1.5 mile run do that? No. I have seen people that could easily pass both of these but not be able to keep up on a hike into a fire or burn themselves out in the first 2 hours of a shift digging line. Would you want one of these people with you when you have to RTO and get to a Safety Zone?

Do smokejumpers, who are required to pack a 110 lb. pack over three miles of typical terrain in 90 minutes always pack their gear out after a fire? No, much of the time their gear is slung out by helicopter. Is this test capable of showing a persons endurance? Yes. Does it give us an idea of a persons ability to deal with things in adverse conditions? Yes. Should this test be required for smokejumpers? Absolutely.

Does the Work Capacity Test keep those who are unfit or who have preexisting medical conditions from fighting fire? Yes. Should employees be required to see a doctor for a thorough physical before beginning a workout regimen to prepare for taking the test? Yes.

No test is one hundred percent reliable or capable of showing everything an employee can do. There will always be people who are not up to it, whatever that test happens to be.

Fired Up,
I have talked with my personnel folks on your specific issue several times. It is my responsibility as a supervisor to hire the most qualified person I can find without regards to sex, race, color, religion, size of shoe, shape of the head, or status in any "target group". If 2 people show up on a list, one male, and one female or minority, and both are equally qualified there may well be pressure to hire the minority. Am I losing anything because of that? Not if both persons are equally qualified.

And just so you don't think I am anti white male, I have hired 3 white males in the last 6 months in 18-8 type positions. All three jobs had women or minorities scoring towards the top of the list. All I had to do to get this through the EEO folks was to justify why I selected the way I did. This was done by highlighting the strengths of the person selected and what they could bring to the program, not the weaknesses of the ones I did not want to hire.......

Fireronin
I do agree with you on the single wildland fire agency. But why not take it a step further: How about a single federal land management agency?

lvcdog

I have never cried as much as I have this week as our entire community is feeling the loss of the firefighters here in Almanor. I attended John Self's celebration of Life last night and the cries that came from those who love him will burn within my heart and soul forever. It is never easy for us to say goodbye to one of our own as a Forest Service family member, but I could not ever fathom what his mom is going through burying her own child. My heartfelt sympathies to the families of all 3 of the fallen firefighters. I have attended a few Forest Service funerals, but it was the first time I attended one where they died in the Line of Duty.

I also had the pleasure of meeting Alex who survived that crash, what a great kid. I do hope that he gets all of the counseling and help that he needs to get through this. The two firefighters who were left behind that week, are troopers and my heart goes out to the entire Lassen National Forest as we near the day we gather for this purpose again --this Saturday.

Just in case anybody needs to know, there will be a Memorial for Steve Oustead at 10am, Saturday August 3rd at the Westwood Community Park. There will be a potluck following. These deaths have taken their toll on the entire community of our area. All of the agencies for fire are very much a part of our lives, whether some of the people realize it or not.

HUGE HUGS and Take Care and May God Bless ALL FIREFIGHTERS!! YOU ARE ALL MY HEROES!!!

-C'More

Firenwater

I have to agree with you that an old trailer should receive the same respect, and attempt at saving as the mansion. However, Red Army's Wife is correct in saying that they are "material". They are simply another fuel. Now I feel sorry for these folks at the end of the day, but a firefighter needs to be able to view these homes as just this, a fuel. Now I am the first to admit that I might push the envelope a little for a home, just as I would a life. That is me making the decision, though. But knowing where that line is is important. Remember the discussion over the VFD chief in Colorado. He saw these homes as worth dying for. Not only are trees and homes not worth dying for, quite frankly they are not worth injury. We see many post in these boards about inexperienced crews (supervisors, etc.) there is where the potential risk is associated; inexperience + bravado = injury or death. I saw the MAFFS crews getting all worked up on the Hamen Fire because of all of the houses that were threatened. Why? Should they fly any differently, drop lower or higher? Cut corners? No, absoluteley not. See the above equation. Someone else pointed out that we should be considered "interface firefighters". I have to agree. Probably 85 percent of what I do anymore is structure protection, and I'm in the aviation business, but the rules of engagement must (should) remain the same as if there were nothing but trees out there. Sure push it A LITTLE at times, that's human (firefighter) nature, but know the limits, and think of houses (single-wide's and Malibu Mansions) as a fuel.

KPC or KCP? CKP?

What were those initials anyway? Ab.

Family will be present on Friday 5-9 PM at the (Amherst Chapel) AMIGONE FUNERAL HOME, INC., 5200 Sheridan Drive (corner of Hopkins Road). A Memorial Service will be held on Saturday at St. Joseph's Church (University Heights), 3269 Main Street, Buffalo, New York at 10 AM. Friends invited. Flowers gratefully declined. If desired, donations may be made to the Wildland Fire Fighters Foundation, 1310 Vista Ave., No. 22, Boise, ID 83705, (208) 336-2996, e-mail: vcikim@aol.com or the Heifer International Foundation, 1202 Main St., Suite 203, Little Rock, AR 72202

Heather was a very good friend of mine and I am going to miss her very much. She was a wonderful friend and firefighter. I'm quite sure that we were supposed to drink a few more martinis and fight a lot more fires together but I guess I'll just have to wait.

-C

Sad... We grieve with you and her family. These deaths hit close to home. We will not forget them. Ab.

Today in Oregon alone, some 13,000 firefighters are battling more than 15 major wildfires burning more than 423,000 acres. Lots of people -- 17,000 of them -- are poised to evacuate the southwestern Oregon Illinois Valley! Feels like Colorado and Arizona all over again.

Will the citizens of this great United States of America wake up? For every one dollar spent ahead of time in prevention and management activities described in the National Fire Plan, we save seven dollars that would be spent in a summer of catastrophic fire like this one. And that doesn't begin to address tourism dollars lost, production lost and rehab dollars spent. Shaded fuel breaks and other kinds of fuel reduction work! We need to begin strategically on the areas that need it most, not on areas that are easiest to reach.

I know I'm speaking to the choir here, but this is how I see it -- and this is just a start:

• As many have said, homeowners need to take responsibility. They need to clear vegetation and ladder fuels out from around their homes, use fire-resistant roofing, clear around propane tanks, and make sure there is more than one way in and out of their neighborhoods -- generally make their homes and interface communities Firesafe. (NIFC pointers and FireWise website) In addition, they need to be willing to leave if asked to when the fire draws near, so as not to endanger our firefighters who sometimes go beyond the call of duty.
• Congress and the Judicial Branch need to help reduce the bureaucratic blocks that keep us from getting on with the National Fire plan.
  • We need a reduction on our National Forests of the huge pile of paperwork and the frivolous lawsuits over every little project that looks like it might cut or burn something. The pile of paperwork has gotten deeper and wider over the years. If the Public hasn't looked at the figures lately, the Forests have not cut many trees for quite a while, but many of the Public suffer under the illusion that the Forest Service is still in danger of raping the land. It's not.
  • We need to treat fuels, including clearing out some small diameter trees. This is not clearcut logging, but prudent thinning.
  • We need multi-year funding for prescribed fire. It is frustrating to have a weather window that allows for prescribed burn but then oops, it's October 1st and the money is cut off. Our best time to burn happens when the rains come. Timeframes need some flexibility. Why can't there be multiple year targets and multiple-year funding, as there is with mechanical brush disposal.

Just a few thoughts.
I admire you federal fire guys and gals who have hung in there with the crazy political situation you deal with --along with your wildland firefighting jobs. You are my heroes... If the Public only knew...

Mellie

Got any pointers for the wife of a new firefighter who wants to welcome her husband home from his first long term assignment? Any of you give her insight for what it's like when you come home burned out, dirty, etc? Check FamilySaid.

Jobs page and Series 462 and 455 were updated. Still have a few more photos to post. Thanks again to Firehorse for his pic of the current situation on the Florence Fire.

Status report on the site: We've had over 160,000 unique viewers per month for the last two months. Exponential rise in readers. Just a few months ago we were crowing when we hit 100,000 unique viewers for the first time. You all must be discussing us in firecamp or something.

Again, we ask that when you need supplies, boots and gear, please go to our Classifieds Links Page and use the products and services of those who support our theysaid community. We appreciate their support. When ordering something, let them know you heard about it here.

Ab.

After reading both of your posts from the past couple of days I couldn't agree more with what Ab had to say.

In my view you are completely wrong. On my Forest we are filling in behind people who have retired with people who have more than 10 years experience. I see the same thing on alot of Forests, there are alot of quality and experienced people out there who are (in some cases) finally being promoted to management positions.

In my opinion, if the media has questions about the Wildland Fire community and how it works, they should be asking the people who do the job for a living, rather than an ANALYST.

Media lurkers, ask away. I will be more than happy to answer your questions. There are quality and experienced people who read and write in to this forum who will answer your questions also.

I am proud to be a Wildland Firefighter with the government. I see the potential and the build up of some of the best firefighters this job has to offer for along time to come.

An-R5er

PS. On another note: here's a story of someone who avoided disaster.

http://209.41.184.21/partners/670/public/news338227.html Pilot keeps cool, coaxes failing bird beyond fire crew

And here's more info on Gordon Knight our fallen helicopter pilot. A memorial service is scheduled for Friday.

http://www.9news.com/storyfull.asp?id=4990

Impressive column, Firehorse. I put it on the Fire 12 photo page. Ab.