State Tightens Fire Crew Enforcement

Oregon suspended 10 wildfire crews this summer for conduct ranging from
falling asleep on the fire line to peddling drugs to allowing a fire to burn out
of control by responding nearly eight hours late.

State forestry officials stepped up enforcement for the first time this year,
spurred by industry pressure and reports in The Oregonian that showed
oversight of training and safety regulations ranged from haphazard to
nonexistent.

TC

This article is making the intranet rounds. Provocative. Comments Readers? Ab.

Let's hear it for Joe Wood, FMO on the Plumas and IC of CIIMT3.

HAPPY RETIREMENT, JOE.

We all appreciate what you've done for the Agency. Your good work
will be GREATLY MISSED. Wow, it's hard to believe you won't be
around.

Tahoe Terrie

PS. Thanks for having the guts to call it like it is.

HEAR, HEAR. We will miss your expertise, Joe. Your retirement is a loss for all of us. Ab.

www2.ocregister.com 

A fire does not have to be very powerful to suffer a collapse. I've had it happen in Rx fire situations where I didn't have enough fuel to torch to sustain an in-draft of air while firing the perimeter. It makes "controlled burns" exciting some days. Firefighters who do not observe the column/plume while enroute or at fires are losing valuable information for their safety evaluation. Lookouts have to be savvy enough to read the signs, not just someone left behind to satisfy the rule book.

JW

I have a story about the coriolis effect and also a thought for you to ponder.

I have never been south of the equator, but I have heard all the "myths": relating to water draining clockwise vs counterclockwise. About 4 years ago, my crew got into an argument with a Municipal FD Engineer while making hose packs. This Engineer, (who has been a city firefighter his entire career) was actually yelling at 3 ex CDF and 1 ex USFS employee about how we were making a huge mistake and spinning our Cleveland Packs backwards and how the coriolis effect was going to cause them to knot up into a pile of spaghetti when we charged them. He was adamant until we spun up two packs and charged them. Its always funny to watch someone eat crow. (for those of you who have never tried this, the two packs will charge just fine)

Anyways, If there is no actual coriolis effect, then why do Hurricanes and Typhoons spin in opposite directions?

Be safe out there and stay heads up for round two of the fire season....Santa ana's are on the way.

XR5 Hotshot

Ans: The Coriolis effect is caused by the earth's rotation and is apparent in large scale phenomena. Ab.

Back up and running. Our ISP had a problem today as anyone who logged on is aware. Regular maintenance, my A$$!

Glad all is now back to normal. Thanks for the encouragement behind the scenes.

The Jobs page and Series 462 and 455 are updated.

Ab.

"Aussie" is correct in stating that, south of the equator, the North arrow does NOT point toward the South Pole. However, to the best of my knowledge, neither of the Earth's poles is notably stronger than the other. A compass' red (North) arrow will point toward the magnetic North Pole when south of the equator because it is magnetized to point to the North pole. And a magnetic compass will begin to swing wildly when at EITHER pole simply because the "pole" is not a non-dimensional point, but a somewhat diffuse area of probably several thousand square miles. In addition, the magnetic lines of force have a vertical component there (they are pointing down toward the surface of the Earth, instead of almost entirely horizontal elsewhere), so a compass held horizontally will have less accuracy.

In the context of this discussion, the following old riddle probably won't be too difficult to solve. A hunter walks 100 paces due south. Then 100 paces due east. Then 100 paces due north and finds himself exactly where he started. He shoots a bear. What color is the bear?

Unfortunately, Aussie is mistaken about sinks and such draining in different directions in the different hemispheres. Despite "common knowledge" to the contrary, there is absolutely NO truth to that. The Coriolis effect is far too weak to operate over such tiny distances. Water will drain in either direction in either hemisphere, depending upon primarily 1) initial condition of rotation (any small rotational velocity in the body of water will most likely be retained once the plug is pulled) and 2) physical characteristics of the vessel in question (if the vessel is non-symmetric to even a small degree, the shape can effect the eventual direction of rotation). Check it out. I believe it is in equatorial Africa, and probably other places, where enterprising individuals earn some tourist-trade money by supposedly demonstrating the effect that Aussie proposes, by first standing a few feet to one side of the supposed "equator" and showing water draining from a tub in one direction, and then stepping a few feet to the opposite side and demonstrating the opposite rotation. This is a trick, and the difference in rotational direction is due entirely to the individual subtly swirling the water in the desired direction prior to pulling the plug. It's not what you don't know that'll get ya, it's what you do know that isn't true.

Other than the Williams fire, and a few lesser ones, California has had an oddly quiet September......

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

www.fs.fed.us/raws/photos/bircher/

Good description, a bit o'science, nice photos.

K

Mellie

Ab, please add this to my last post:
The reason I'm confused is that the way it was stated, it sounded like erratic fire behavior preceded the collapsing plume. After the speaker was done and gone, it seemed unlikely that winds coming in to lend themselves to the updraft could cause a huge column to collapse. Seems that the power of the rising column created by the fire would be too great to be altered to the extent of collapsing. Probably the speaker meant that the collapsing column resulted in erratic winds and fire behavior...

Remember in this time of continued fire activity that you can read the SIT Report in HTML by looking for it on our Links page and clicking on the second link. Choose the top archived National Sit Report. They still archive very early in the day.

Ab.

A VOLUNTEER firefighter was killed by a falling tree on Saturday night during a hazard reduction burn in the Blue Mountains. John Overton, 52, of Kanimbla Valley, suffered head injuries when a tree snapped 5m above the ground and struck him as it fell, police said.

He was among several firefighters trying to fell the burning tree near Lithgow. The Rural Fire Service said yesterday the crew was involved in securing the perimeter of the fire to prevent it breaking containment lines when the incident occurred.

"It's been a horrible decade for the Lithgow community," spokesman John Winter said. "It hit the local brigade extremely hard, particularly those who were there and witnessed the incident occurring, it's a very traumatic experience and it's felt right across the community. He died while trying to make the area safe and that represents the extent of commitment but it also represents the most horrible part of the tragedy in that he was working to try and avoid that very thing."

Overton is survived by a wife and several children, including a toddler.

RFS Commissioner Phil Koperberg said the tragedy had struck the family, local brigade and volunteers across the state. "The local community has been deeply shocked by the incident and the whole service is greatly saddened by the loss of a dedicated volunteer firefighter who was working to make his community safer," he said.

Jim Ashley, Division supervisor and air attack on Tom Suwyn's great basin incident
management team and full time BLM (Nevada) employee was killed in an ATV
accident last week.

A HUGE loss to the fire community.

CC

Condolences. Ab.

Check the News and Notes for stats and updates.
www.fire.r5.fs.fed.us/scsc/gaccintel/notes.html

Firescribe

Will

Check the Fire News page. AP has an article. Ab.

JAFU!

Pyrodactyl

Ab has been assured that this is an acronym for an old term of endearment among crewmates.

Bright's ORCA team is transitioning off the Tiller Complex tomorrow. I don't know about the status of McElwain's ORCA team.

Here's their website: www.fs.fed.us/r6/fremont/orca.

NorCal Tom

MMW

We've got a fire too, near Hoopa Reservation again. They say it started yesterday and the cause is being investigated. This morning it was 250 acres in heavy timber, steep terrain, and with limited access. Must be worse this afternoon as the smoke at Five Waters is much thicker. I'm just keeping fingers crossed. Our fire season can go on into November if we don't get the winter storm pattern.

Mellie

We have had some cookin' last few days (90-100 degrees) and a fire called the Burns Fire just north of Laytonville CA. It's contained, but we must of had 650 personnel working it. It was so cool and damp last week it felt like fire was over for the season. It's not. I'm glad that NorCal was ready for another one.

Be safe.
Todd

Readers, I posted a nice column photo of the Biscuit Fire when it was called the "Oregon Fire". Put that on the Biscuit Fire photo page in the first slot. Unfortunately I deleted the e-mail with some others before getting the photographer's info. Photographer, could you please send it in again? Ab.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I put them on the Handcrew 6 and Equipment 4 Photo pages. You can see that one of the resources at risk was the Flaming Gorge Reservoir. Ab.

Our condolences as well.
Ab Note: I snipped some of this report. If anyone would like to read the rest, e-mail and I'll send it.

I took over the Apple Fire as IAIC at about 1200 on Aug 16th (the day the fire started). The helicopters were dropping when I got there (the fire was reported at 1000). The fire blew up (actually the spots east of the main body blew up) at about 1430. At that time we reprioritized the bucket missions to the 'backside/westflank of the fire' and the 'river side' (north flank). The west flank was was along Panther Cr road and it spotted across several times that afternoon (that's another story). I told the RA on the radio early on that the "fire would be an emergency all afternoon" in regards to using the river. This was because of the fire's proximity to private land (structures) around the town of Dry Creek and the main Pacificorp's power lines for the North Umpqua Hydroelectric project.

We dipped out of the river till we shut down the helicopters down when they either timed out or were ineffective.

RC

Team Equipment
List of all CFU members with assorted columns for checking members into and out of duty, times, active or inactive, on a break or whatever,
2 x bum pack 1st aid kits,
2 x 1:50,000 scale maps of area - laminated, (showing hydrants, SWS's, privately pumps, Fire trails, 1st aid station, any house that has special needs people i.e. aged, infirm, handicapped etc., any danger zones i.e. cliffs, power lines through bush, marshalling and evacuation routes, safety zones,
Foolscap size maps showing location locations of all hydrants, SWS's (Static Water Supply), Houses with their own pumps & hoses and First Aid station - laminated,
Foolscap map for each house show access routes to bush zones, propane tanks and SWS's - laminated,
All equipment marked with a combination of day glow colours, glow in the dark tape and reflective tape,
2 x hatchets,
4 x self standing road signs (reflective) with words to the effect "20 KPH speed limit Hoses across road",
1 x Stop/Go lollipop sign.
Spare safety vests for support members i.e. runners, 1st aiders, equipment officer, lookouts, liaison between professional services and CFU and local residents,
4 rolls of gaffer tape,
spare batteries,
Basic tool kit for pump,
B:E type fire extinguisher (to use on the pump in case it catches fire due to petrol spillages etc.),
2 x metal rakes,
2 x pruning saws,
1 x bush saw,
1 x branch lopper,
1 x folding table, 4 folding chairs and 1 x outdoor battery powered electric lantern for command post,
1 x Hacksaw,
1 x Bolt Cutters (Hhmmm size????)
1 x disposable camera,

Personal equipment
1 x Whistle,
3 x Glow sticks,
1 x Pocket torch (AA or volt type) plus spare batteries and globes (for emergency use),
small pack of assorted bandages/bandaids for everybody,
Chewing gum and some soft chew candy to keep the saliva flowing,
permanent markers and some 3" x 4" plastic cards (holes punched in each corner) to write messages on,
5-10 large cable ties,
mobile/cell phone (I am suggesting this due to most people in our area generally have one per adult and coverage is very good for our home ground)

Seeking clarification:
Canteen -
What type of canteen? metal or plastic? Hiker's or power walker's? Kept in one of those insulated packs? Does it matter if the canteen is metal but has a plastic cap?

Head Lamps -
single bulb vs. twin bulb, LED vs. incandescent or combination, fixed or focusable, batteries mounted on helmet or belt/webbing, standard or intrinsically safe,

Head Lamp vs. hand held lamp clamped on the helmet -
Any suggestions? Pros and cons???

Aussie CFU

AL

Pulaski had some great suggestions.

You may also wish to make certain that the fuel for your gas powered pump is no more than 3 months old. Sitting in a hot location can make petrol go bad fast and the last thing you want is your pump quitting when you need it the most. If the pump engine is a 2 cycle don't mix the oil with the gas till you need it. Mixed gas degrades in a matter of weeks. Drain the tank when you put the pump back in storage.

Communication is also key in firefighting. A set of those cheap 1 mile range 2 way radios would be better than nothing for coordinating your efforts. Better quality radios would be a plus. If nothing else you may want to invest in a "canned air horn" for your "leader" to have. A single long blast can be used to sound retreat, two blasts means spot fire, etc. It is cheap and much louder than yelling. It could save a house...or a life.

The dust and ash from a fire can put a firefighter out of action if it gets in their eyes, which it tends to do. That is why all are encouraged to wear goggles. In reality many choose not to. Those small squeeze bottles of sterile water about the size of your thumb are great for clearing ash/dust out of an eye and can not only quickly get a firefighter back in the game but may prevent serious eye damage in the long run. Cheap insurance to stick in your coverall pocket.

If you can get adapters to "Y" in common garden hoses to your 2" line it may be useful. Since (if I understand correctly) your focus will be urban interface firefighting you may be able to use garden hoses to supplement your existing hose lay. Although larger diameter fire hose would be best you might be surprised at how useful these can be in an interface situation and any "suburb" or housing development usually has quite a supply of garden hose to "grab and use" in a pinch.

Quickly moving a pump can be very awkward, especially over rough ground. A simple pole with straps or ropes that attach to the pump frame is cheap and useful. 2 people can easily sling the pole over their shoulders and quickly move the pump slung beneath without straining their back.

Simple packs to carry your hoses, connectors, and other equipment will help keep it all together and easy to move. Get large enough packs that you can "watermelon" the hose since you may not have time to roll it when you need to move. If possible "paint" your equipment packs a bright "dayglo" yellow or orange so they are easy to find. Combined with the sling pole two people can move the pump and quite a bit of hose simultaneously and still each have one hand free.

A bucket or pail may also be very useful if you need to draw water from a pond. By tying the pump intake hose in the bucket most of the mud or sand that might be picked up and sent through the pump to end up clogging nozzles later is avoided. A cylindrical screen with 1/4" openings around the intake end similarly helps prevent floating debris from being sucked up.

You can make your own neck shrouds pretty easily out of squares of light canvas/heavy muslin and a little Velcro. You may find that they are more useful for things other than protecting your neck.

If your nozzles and Ys are not brightly colored it may be useful to spray paint them a bright color so you can easily see them. They tend to get lost when you need them the most..and seeing the end of a hose lay from a distance can be useful as well.

A few rolls of flagging tape may also be useful. It can be used to mark where a water source is (to help the fire dept. when they show up) or to show the turn off to the location of the fire. Lot's of uses if you discuss it with your team beforehand.

Good luck in the upcoming fire season.
Fireronin

After conferring with several personnel specialists over the last few days, the conclusion is. . . a secondary firefighting position can be filled with a person not qualifying for firefighting retirement. The specialists thought it may be an unusual situation wherein applicants without primary firefighting experience would be able to strongly compete with those having it, but agreed it very well possible. "After all", one of them said, "isn't wildland fire dispatching firefighting"? It would mean however, that if a person was selected who did not qualify for the secondary firefighting retirement that they would be ineligible to retire at 50 years of age. But, then again, they couldn't be kicked out at age 57 either!

My examples to the specialists were current gs-6 or 7 dispatchers from areas not requiring "on-the-ground" firefighting experience, or as mentioned here in another post, an all-risk 911 type dispatcher with several years of dispatching experience which included vegetation fires. After all, the vacancy was flown concurrently as a Demo position, which means that any and all may apply.

So, to one and all, the vacancy's still open!
http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/plumas/pnf_employment/

Steve

As several other posts have mentioned FEMA serves as the coordinator for the Federal response. I have worked with them on a number of different training courses and they have monitored several classes on ICS. However, FEMA is not designed nor intended to come in an manage an incident. What they do bring to the table is a big checkbook and the ability to task Federal agencies to do work for an incident.

"Boo"

KMB

Proposal for goats to nip fire fuels in the Sierra, CA:
www.fresnobee.com

Montana forests rise anew from gray ash:
www.washingtonpost.com

On the "yee haw" from the volly depts": *sigh*....yea, I'm sure there are some out there like that but by and large the "good 'ol boys beer club FD" of years past is just that. I have been worked on 2 VFD's for the last 10 yrs and have worked with (in training and fires) a dozen or so more and have not seen one of the "yee haw" variety. Standards vary from state to state and the quality of individual depts varies greatly. But to white wash the majority with that type of mentality is poor judgment at best. Im not sure where, but I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority of FD's in the US are "volunteer" (if I remember correct figure was in the 90% range) and I be alot of folks would be surprised at some of the major metropolitan areas that have volunteer departments. 'nough said.

On the History channel special. The thing thats strange is that they are using a wildland fire special to generate donations for structural folks. Nothing really wrong with it but it does make you wonder. BLM Bob, ya, I thought it looked like a mattock too. Another thing that makes you wonder.

On the FEMA/ICS thread. Not sure about FEMA, but I know our state emergency government office uses it as we trained with them a few years ago on IOC set up (which is what the wildland community would most likely call an area command). It was interesting as their perception of an ICP was the hood of the local FD chiefs car/truck. I think the catch here is that the wildland community are probably the only ones to use teams routinely and on large incidents. For the most part other emergency agencies just dont have the on the ground experience to have worked their kinks out yet.

For Aussie CFU (ab, you can snip and forward here if ya want too)
-The SWS sign thing is a great idea. We use something similar here (upper mid-west US)
-Seems your equipment box is short on nozzles and y's. I would also suggest you look at sprinklers. Canada (ontario at least) has used these for years with great success and they are becoming more in use here and in the western US. The nice thing is (if you have a large static water supply) you can set them up ahead of the fire and get yourself out of harms way.
-What the heck is a witches hat?????
-Under my ppe is strictly cotton, and if its not too danged hot I wear long sleeve t-shirts. I know alot of folks prefer the kind that wick moisture away from your body (cant remember the material or brand name right now)
- A leatherman or some sort of pocket knife is almost a must.
-Flashlights (torch) are ok for on or around the truck, but if you are going to get out and work its best to have something you can use sling around your neck or on your hard had to keep your hands free.
-As far as eats on the line everything you mentioned is pretty much ok except for the soft drinks. The consumption ratio some folks use is 6 bottles of water and one sport drink. W/O getting into the canteen vs bottled water debate, while more costly, by using bottled water you can negate the chances of someone getting sick from drinking from a fouled water supply.
-Span of control. That is probably one of the best things that came out of the ICS system. Works wonder to help maintain command and control if you stick to it. (rate of 3-7 to 1).
-As far as your interface scenario goes, it sounds kinda typical. The first thing that pops into my mind is public education work. ie: firewise. Bottom line is, look around your house, anything you see that could be ignited by a blowing ember needs to be removed. Especially note where leaves/pine needles tend to naturally pile up.. thats where fire brands are going to want to pile up too! Jack Cohen of the Missoula fire lab has put out an excellent video on this topic ( http://www.firelab.org/) I would recommend getting a copy of this video it is an excellent education tool.

Whew...I guess thats enough fer now.

Later,
Pulaski

Each CFU is allocated the following equipment which is either stored in a locked outdoor storage cabinet or covered box trailer.

• CFU Equipment
• A stand/stem pipe to tap into the water mains,
• gas (petrol) powered water pump, to pump water from a pool or dam,
• 180m of hose (2” I think),
• a Y joint,
• two nozzles,
• an assortment of shovels, rakes etc.,
• two water back packs,
• 1st aid kit, and
• some witches hats.
• PPE -- The members (between 6 – 12) are issued by the NSWFB with :
  • boots,
  • gloves,
  • goggles,
  • helmets,
  • respirators, and
  • overalls.

And here are the questions I posted before:

1. What do you wear under your PPE as far as underwear, socks, t-shirts, etc. is concerned? I used to be involved in motor sport and the advice/rules was all cotton or natural fibre for underwear.
2. What extra/non-standard equipment would you take i.e. pocket knife, Leatherman tool, torch - hand held or head/helmet mounted or on a sling, what type of canteen, harness or belt to carry equipment on, etc.
3. What do you take with you for snacks and drinks on the fire line i.e. jerked meat, muesli bars, trail mix, snack packs of fruit, plain water, sports drinks, UHT milk, Dr. Peppers, mineral water ????

The Current Fires 2002 page is also up to date. Most fires have been contained.

Ab.

**********************

Professionalism is an attitude. You're not one because you are paid and making the fire profession a career. You earn the right to call yourself a "professional". That is, by learning everything that is needed to do your job and beyond. You treat all people with respect, whether they are career, vol, new recruit, or seasoned veteran. You don't give orders for someone under you to do something that you wouldn't do yourself.

When you walk, talk, and act like you are professional, then you can call yourself professional with the respect that others know that you are.

I have seen a lot of career and vol people that is and was not professional even though they thought they were. I also know many career people that treated me as an equal and I would have done anything they would have asked, because they knew how to be professional. I know some vol officers and chiefs that everyone would follow any order they gave because they knew how to be professional. And as far as the "yee haw", they might have been so glad to get to help work to save their own area and also getting the chance to work side by side with people that respected them, that they did holler. I know I would have. Get involved in your community as a volunteer of something and see what it is like to work 8-10 days at work and 2-4 hours every night as a vol going to meetings or whatever. then spending your vacation time going to classes, while your career friends are in same class getting paid for that day, or your weekends away from home training or helping the community.

I was honored a couple of weekends ago as the Grand Marshall for the day, because of my volunteering as a FF and all the other volunteering that I do in my community. I felt very honored that the people felt that I had did a good enough job as a volunteer, to do this. I have never been so proud to have become a volunteer. To all people, give back just 4 hours of volunteer work to your community per year and see how you feel.

Thanks for listening
CAFSman (25 years of volunteering)

Definitely Anonymous,

FEMA does not have IMTs per se, but do have some groups; Incident Support Teams (ISTs logistics for the USAR teams for example), Mobile Emergency Response Support (MERS - communication and infrastructure assistance), Rapid Needs Assessment teams (RNA - help decide what the feds can bring to the table) and a Emergency Response Team-Advance (ERT-A - the closest similarity to an ITM). None of these, or anyone from FEMA for that matter, are supposed to take over incident command, but in practice, voids will be filled. That said, when an incident is severe enough that a presidential declaration is issued (and only in that circumstance) all the resources of the federal governments can be brought to bear. So if a need is identified and assistance is requested for incident management, the IMTs will be it. That's not to say they will go on all Presidentially declared disasters, probably just the really big nasty ones. It will depend on the local/state capability.

As for whether FEMA knows or uses ICS, short answer is yes. They actually mandate it's use, and their training materials are much better than NWCGs IMHO. However, the depth of knowledge and implementation varies widely.

Bottom line answer to your question is no, you guys aren't the first line of organizational response, but more like a last resort.

call me... EM

IMT's?...not really. FEMA has 3 "National Emergency Response Teams" in additional to "Area Emergency Response Teams" within the regions. They are not, however, analogous to fire IMT's. The ERT's focus on "federal support of local and state operations". They do not supplant local operations, as IMT's can.

The "operational functions" that FEMA provides include: operational support, human services, infrastructure support and emergency services. The teams are also looser than IMT's, in that they will call up what personnel they need for the type of incident. DFO's or Disaster Field Offices are not like IMT's; they primarily serve as on-site public assistance centers - helping people fill out the forms for disaster assistance, etc.

There are other "response team" functions that are managed or coordinated by FEMA, including the Urban Search and Rescue (USAR), Medical Disaster Assistance Teams (MDAT) and a host of other specialized teams from various federal agencies (morgue teams, mobile hospitals, etc).

ICS?...sort of, but not really. They use organizational structures similar to ICS, and they have adopted many features of ICS, but along the way, it got watered down, mutated and ignored. FEMA has in theory "adopted" ICS, but their own National Fire Academy does not even teach it. They instead have for many years used a bastardized version, similar to the "Incident Management System" used in metropolitan departments. The sad thing is that many of the instructors (and most of the students) don't even know that it isn't the same as ICS. What's missing: universal personnel qualifications, common terminology, common operational procedures, common business management procedures, common communications, common training ciriculum. What's there: an org chart that is similar to ICS.

Interestingly, in the big picture FEMA comes closer to conforming with ICS than does the National Fire Academy. Possibly because of the huge east coast influence?

Training?...FEMA has adopted module 1 (ICS orientation), a 1-hour self study ICS primer. In addition, many of the strategy and tactics classes offered a the NFA have some ICS (with mixed results). They also teach ICS for Law Enforcement and ICS for public works.

How do they respond: Under the auspices of the Federal Response Plan: www.fema.gov/rrr/frp/.

The USFS teams that were sent to New York last year were listed as managing a small portion of the whole response: that of receiving and distributing materials and equipment. There were other response organizations as well, but from an outsider's point of view, there did not seem to be one overall organization. FBI had its own, NYPD had its own, FDNY had its own...

Next Topic:
Palos,
I am a "pro" having been a full-time firefighter for 16 years. I am a TFL and ICT4.

What you have to say about volunteer firefighters is way off base. Many "vollies" are undertrained and undermanaged, but that image does not reflect all of the volunteer firefighters in the Country.

I have nearly 50 volunteers working for me. Our local district contracts to provide all of the initial attack in our county, including federal and state lands. In the past 10 years we have responded to over 250 IA fires within our district without losing one, or having to bring in state or federal backup.

Every year, our volunteers mobilize for project fires throughout the region. Judging from the evals they get on those fires, they are doing an excellent job.

The training program we provide to our volunteers is so well regarded in our area that the local NPS and USFS send their candidates to us to train.

We, too have former FS and CDF personnel, including former hotshots. We also have current NPS rangers and state park rangers volunteering.

There are some "yee-haw" volunteers in the world. There are also highly qualified ones.

Islander

It might interest him or her to know that very shortly after the 1994 Northridge earthquake, FEMA and California's OES set up a large Command Post (I believe they called it a Disaster Field Office) taking up two floors of a large high-rise in Pasadena. About eight or ten CDFers, including myself and one high-ranking Chief, were brought in to explain and assist in implementing the ICS for both those agencies. The main operation went on for a good couple of weeks in that office, and CDF personnel were instrumental in keeping the large-scale Command and Control procedures and meetings in line with ICS principles. There were some pretty big egos there, especially on the FEMA side (the stress level was enormous with them, understandably, because that was a HUGE incident with massive amounts of political concern.....). Two or three days into the incident, the CDF personnel were asked to work in civilian clothes because too many people were asking what those CDF people were doing there........... It seems that they were a little embarrassed that we were there to implement a procedure which should have already been mastered. That was some time ago, and FEMA may well have incorporated more ICS training in the meanwhile. I imagine OES is more familiar with it, as it has been used so extensively in California. But that wasn't apparent in 1994.

I am not sure, but I think CDF performed a similar role in the Loma Prieta quake in 1989.

CDF Mike from Arroyo Grande

Just because I don't have a green engines or my department doesn't have helicopters, air tankers, and dozers doesn't mean I take this job as a lark. I try to be a professional and as hard working as anyone, matter of fact many times the vols. will work harder just to prove we can pull our share. Yes, there are some vol. departments that are prima donnas too. I say all this with utmost respect for all the hard working paid professional firefighters out there. Don't judge a book by its cover, work with them first then let their actions be your guide.

L.A.V.E.

On the dispatch topic. I have read all the takes from dispatchers who submit notes to this site, but have seen little from the fire fighters who may be calling in or sizing up a fire to a non-wildland fire experienced dispatcher. I know this may sound odd, but I worked on a district that made every Eng. Capt. (foreman, EML, supervisor) spend a week on the I.A. (hot seat, dispatch, fire) counsel. My time in there was something that I will never forget. I never thought that I could get so frustrated or over tasked while I was wearing shorts and tevas. It made me realize that while the I.C. is screaming for resources, the dispatcher is doing their best to fill the order. I have a very hard time believing that a 911 dispatcher or any one else who may have great communications, computer, translation, multi-tasking skills, still with a plethora of patience, with out wildland fire experience could be an efficient wildland fire dispatcher. I always blew off a complete size up, until I after the times that I was sitting in the hot seat. I now know (at least here, where all of our I.A. dispatchers are required to have actual fire line experience) that a full size up and any information that the I.C. provides can give a little ammo to the dispatchers when we are screaming for tankers, engines, crews, helicopters... or whatever it is that we are requesting from the GACC.

Please tell me, would an experienced 911 dispatcher, or a person without wildland fire experience know the actual capabilities of a type 2 vs a type 1 crew or the difference between a type 3 and a type 1 helicopter. Yes, yes I read that there is reference material to help the dispatcher there. But in the real world, the here and now, knowing how many seats, or allowable payload from a read cue card is no match for actual knowledge of what resource might the dispatcher need to get the job done.

I read earlier that this plays into effect when the dispatcher acts as an I.C. unit ground forces arrive. And I can't agree more. To go into details would require space that the Ab's would snip in a heart beat, but to shorten it up, fire tactics are broken down into....... Fuels, Weather, and Topography.

Any good wildland fire dispatcher needs to have a grasp on those basic concepts, which requires time in the field, actually fighting fire. Any one who may have just "read up" on this will not have an appreciation for what may be actually happening on the ground.

I understand that there are great 911 and other types of dispatchers who do a wonderful job every day. How ever I can not see how any wildland fire dispatcher could do an effective job with out knowing what we deal with on the ground. I believe that the wildland fire environment has many more variables than any incident that may occur with in a town boundary.

I'll leave the fire fighter retirement seminar to the experts.

Take it as you will
Palos

P.S. Ab, what up with all the hub bub earlier this month about portal to portal? Nothing on "They Said" or the "FWFSA" site about it....... C'mon.... fill us in!

You need to check your communication links more thoroughly. I was at the Apple fire during initial attack. We were utilizing type 2 and type 1 helicopters from the Tiller Complex within twenty minutes of the order being placed. The district resource advisor was contacted and because of the critical fisheries habitat within North Umpqua River drainage, it was determined that the river would only be used as a water source for the helicopters in an emergency. The fire, even in initial attack and at less than ten acres, was determined to be an emergency. All of the water dropped on the fire that day (almost 400,000 gallons) was taken from the river. Retardant was also ordered but lead advised that the terrain was too dangerous to drop in and canceled the order. The river was utilized as a water source for both helicopters and for filling engines and tenders, with the proper precautions in place to protect the salmon and steelhead smolt, for the first few days of the fire. Then the helios were diverted to other approved dip sites near the fire, but returned to the river as the fire situation warranted for the next two weeks. Despite constant monitoring by the resource advisors assigned to the fire, incidents occurred involving improper protection at pump sites and fuel spills on the river banks.

Both aggressive firefighting and resource protection are important aspects of todays fire management principles. Much has changed in the twenty seven years I have fought fire with the USFS, some changes have been good and others have made our jobs more difficult to perform. Spreading false information within our fire family has been one of the hardest aspects of this profession I have dealt with throughout my career. Please be more careful with your post info everyone.

fireriver

Take a look at the picture on the History channel link (www.historychannel.com/fire/) and you will see that the premise of the show seems to be VFD and fiction. Who is that guy with black stuff smeared all over his face, what tool is he holding, and what professional firefighter could hold a tool like that and keep from getting his butt chewed? One thing to watch is if the they mistakes made in McLean's book are edited out of the show, or are they left in for dramatic effect.

6

I am attempting to learn when the small fire occurred and how it was started at:
Jerry Lakes, Paysaten Wilderness, WA, near Crater and Jack Mountain.

Most likely in the past 5 or 6 years.

Thanks much,
Dan

Definitely Anonymous, um hm.

I'm allowing this one because I think there are some serious questions here. I snipped some speculation. Ab.

I have worked with CDF and FS in region 5: both have different CAD programs. FS actually had two. Though Region 3 didn't have CAD, they had basically the "Bin" system. Region 8 had a varied CAD system. BLM I understand has bought into WILDCAD and I know NICC used it with showers, caterers, communication and helicopters.

This issue of whether wildland dispatchers need fire exper. has been going on for years and will continue I'm sure for years to come.

Retirement I believe is an issue. Secondary fire position, I'll admit that is one reason why I looked into dispatching. The other, yes, was a health reason.

Most of the best dispatchers I know come from fire background, and yes I even know a great one on the LP that doesn't come from a fire background. I know I don't know all the wildland dispatchers but I know a great many of them after being in the busy for over 18 years.

Like it was mentioned before, TEAMWORK is the key, and the most important issue in my mind is service to the fire, law and admin folk who are out in the field... them getting home safely to their loved ones every night.

Dispatcher of 18+ years

I just returned from the National Fire Academy in Emmittsburg, Md. While there I tried to check up on the latest "They Said" posts, but was unable to access the site. Each time I attempted access I was met with a notice that www.wildlandfire.com is a forbidden site on FEMA access net. Why does FEMA have this site blocked?

Also, the National Fire Academy has added several courses for structural firefighters to learn to deal with wildland/urban interface fires. Although, I wasn't in the course, I did manage to get a copy of the textbook. It looked to be fairly accurate and informative, with information on weather forecasts, spot weather, structural triage, and basic wildland fire behavior. It also seems to give good information on how things will progress logistically as the fire grows and becomes beyond the control of local resources. I know that there are many structural depts in my area that could use this course! Other areas may want to check on it as well.

The National Fire Academy is very cost-effective, with only a small registration fee and meal ticket purchase. All lodging is free and travel (including airfare) is reimbursed! It is definitely worth the trip as the training and staff are top-notch. Also on the grounds is the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial.

On_Fire

Re FEMA's Blocking of wildlandfire.com: All this Ab can think of is that some posters to theysaid were critical of FEMA following the 30 Mile investigation. Alternatively, maybe heightened security has resulted in FEMA banning all such anonymous posting sites as ours. Is the AAP board banned? Is the CDF Members board banned? Some of the posts on those auto posting sites get way more out of line than this site does.

What can I say? We don't post here with FEMA's sensibilities in mind. We wish that agency well. It's clear they don't know us or our dedication to this country. Perhaps they have too much on their plate to even make the attempt to get to know the wildland fire community.

Members of this community are patriots, but located outside the beltway, PATRIOTS who are invested in wildland firefighter safety, professionalism, and appropriate information sharing. Theysaid attests to that. In addition, as those who know the Abs can tell you, we definitely have our national interests in mind. Some posts come in that never see the light of day, either because they are junk or because our research finds them baseless.

Unfortunately, an act such as banning can be done by one person in power who feels a need to control or who has a beef with something that's been posted. Even more unfortunately, I would think that such a banning - which probably most impacts our wildland firefighters attending the National Fire Academy - increases the perceived divide between eastern and western fire, since theysaid is one of the main ways firefighters around the country and between agencies learn from each other.

Ab.

Let's talk about staying up on policies, agreements and orders. Knowing where to reference information for the multitude of questions you get from the people in the field. It's not just fire questions, it comes from everywhere. Here in our small shop, we monitor and use 6 radio frequencies and 6 phone lines. We deal almost daily with 2 CHP dispatch centers, 4 county sheriff dispatch centers and our local CDF ranger unit, which I'm happy to say we have a good working relationship with. We get busy as hell in here and if you can't multitask you're screwed.

I'm not saying having previous fire experience doesn't help, it does but very little. I had three very good teachers when I was "dumped" here. I needed it. After picking my jaw up off the floor, the training started. Oh and one of the dispatchers that was training me had no previous fire experience. All three were top notch and all three have since moved on. One thing never stops in dispatch, the learning. Almost weekly something comes up that you haven't had to deal with before. This is where the ability to locate the reference material and read fast comes into play. I guess when I'm real old (like 41 or 42 HEHE) and finally have seen it all it will be time to retire.

I've been uhhh lets say blessed with the training of our newest dispatchers. I can teach them about protocols, and what to anticipate when it comes to fires and LE activities. I can teach them to use the programs, I can teach them where and how to use the reference materials and I can teach them about policies. What I can't teach them is how to get firefighter retirement without being a firefighter before they became a dispatcher.

Our shop main work load is Law Enforcement, maybe we should have to be LEs before we are dispatcher. Of course there have been a few days I would have liked to have been packing heat. Oh well I love my job and I'm sorry we've missed out on having some very good dispatchers because of the "prior" experience clause.

Sorry for being so long winded.
Sign me: The 5 handed, 6 eared, three mouth dispatcher.

P.S. "Tankersssssss" I know you read this site. Have a good day in North Ops.