You are 100% correct. It is my responsibility to look after my crew, make sure of their safety. However, not being a government employee is kind of difficult as well. I have yanked my crew off of a hill before due to very dangerous conditions. It is very easy for someone to say " that crew simply did not want to work " and send that crew home. I have seen it done. So, being a contract crewboss, we have to perform a very difficult balancing act. I should not have to worry about things like that ( being sent home for having safety concerns ) unfortunately, I am.

Now I know what people are probably going to say, that never happens here, or that never happens there, but until you work contract, you will never know. Not saying that every govt employee is like that, by no means. Just saying that I never know when I am going to get that 1 person out of X amount that just doesnt care too much about contract firefighters. Thanks for the post and I whole heartedly agree with you.

Gratefull

One of my friends (an electrical lineman) said the "Storm King Mountain Tragedy" had been used in safety training as an example of how important it is in dangerous professions to "always follow the rules". In the ensuing discussion I agreed that if the safety rules (in this case the 10&18) are meticulously followed the likelihood of firefighter injuries and deaths is minimized dramatically. I then pulled out my pocket copy of the 10&18 and went over "our rules" explaining what each meant and what it really takes to implement them all...all the time.

My lineman buddy soon chimed in that it was like telling guys that fix high tension electrical lines "never touch a wire and you will not get shocked". As a safety rule it is very effective at providing for safety....but no broken electrical wires would ever be fixed. Instead the main rule "never work on live wires but act as if they are" is a much more workable compromise. Lineman electrocutions occur rarely and usually only when the situation changes without warning such as when a line being worked on is unexpectedly energized by a lighting strike or erroneous action of another. Such situational changes are rare for linemen but a constant for firefighters since wildfires move and change constantly. As a result what may be perfectly safe one minute may be unacceptably unsafe then next, then safe again a few minutes later. The tendency (when danger looms) is to give it a little time to see if the situation changes back to safe again before reacting to the new and possibly temporary unsafe condition. If this were not the generally accepted practice (especially on initial attack) huge numbers of uncontrollable wild fires would burn all summer every summer. As a result the 10&18 are considered by nearly everyone defacto "guidelines" (rather than rules) which allow fires to be controlled with a minimum of firefighter deaths at the lowest cost possible. And they are "bent" constantly by those on and off the fireline. Yet the official line is that strict adherence to the 10&18 is "required".

Back to "Fire on The Mountain".
I agree in many ways the conclusion that it was the "can do" attitude of the fire fighters which was most responsible for their deaths. But it wasn't ""we "can do" this by ourselves"" or "" we "can do" the job regardless of the danger"". Rather it was ""we "can do" our job if everyone else does theirs"". Unfortunately while the firefighters on the line may have been knowingly breaking some of the 10&18 some of their superiors and support personnel were doing the same thing with out their knowledge. Critical weather info was not relayed. Adequate communication equipment had not been issued. An airborne lookout was not provided as requested. Needed resources were delayed or sat idle nearby due to budget considerations and interagency disagreements and sloppy management.

Here's my point. (You were beginning to wonder if there was one weren't you?) When fire crews on the line tentatively, temporarily, and knowingly "set aside" one or two of the "10&18" it is a "normal day at work" which is far less likely to result in death or injury than when overhead or support personnel do the same thing due to sloppiness, ego, or budget concerns. Individuals on the fireline are all too aware that when they are "breaking the rules" their lives are in danger and tend to compensate with a heightened awareness (bordering on paranoia sometimes). When support personnel (including overhead) "break the rules" or make following the rules impossible (even inadvertently) the result can all too easily be a crew on the line being blindsided by a changing condition. This is what I believe the true lesson of Storm King Mountain was. To everyone's credit I also believe that although "official responsibility" was (mis)laid on those that perished, in the following years quiet changes have been made up the chain of command resulting in the current official "overhead will be held responsible" edict resulting from the 30 mile fire investigation.

Unfortunately official responsibility still stops somewhere short of the "top".
Dana

www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/ref_material/content/fatalities.pdf

eastern forester

Thanks, we'll update the links page. Ab.

We updated the FF Job Series 462 and 455 today instead of tomorrow and will update them again late Sunday.

For those of you who bypass our Main Page, I put Original Ab's Fire Dragon there. Take a look. You can also make it your wallpaper. Compare it to the terrific original photo of the Clear Creek Fire on the Wallpaper Page taken by Kim Soper, FBAN on Carvhelo's Team. Happy Halloween, All.

Ab.

Respirators are tightly controlled by NIOSH (National Institute of Occupational Safety & Health) who certify what a respirator is used for (i.e. organic compounds, small particulates, etc). There is NO accepted NIOSH respirator standard for wildfire smoke: in trying to identify the harmful components, Carbon Monoxide always comes up, and no respirator can prevent the passage of CO. Federal employees are not allowed to use respirators for purposes not NIOSH-certified: that's why your boss has to shut you off. Accountability: if she/he knows you're not following the rules and allows you to continue, they become liable. States/Counties/Rurals may have a different set of rules.

NFPA beat this problem around for years, and never made much headway in finding a solution. Dr. Brian Sharkey at USFS-MTDC has coordinated a lot of studies on the Health Hazards of Smoke since 1990, and has a wealth of info on the subject (including a free Video), a Conference pub, and 12-15 quarterly newsletters with lots of good information.

Dick Mangan

Sitting here thinking about the "Fire on the Mountain" documentary that aired the other night. I must say that was probably one of the best presentations on wildland firefighting I have seen to date. Mr. MacLean did an outstanding job in making sure the story was told.

I remember right after that fire occurred in '94, I was sitting around with some buddies talking about how something like this could occur....

My CDF buddies were amazed on the lack of resources assigned to the fire. I was reminded of times when I had worked in different times and conditions, and for me, I could understand what was going on in those firefighters minds. You see, here in CA, we have the luxury of having it all....and because of that, many in CDF have a tough time with that concept in CO.

The CDF air program TRIES to get to the fire before the ground pounders....

Frosty was right, the Sour Biscuit was another copy-nothing learned-all for what?, to get around the enviros to burn your ground? at what cost?

There was a "Can Do!" attitude on South Canyon. After having asked and asked for resources and being refused (I remember being in this situation too), your attitude begins to change from "Can Do" into "Make do." "Make do" kills firefighters, not "Can Do" in my opinion.

And after a while (years) of "making do," some people begin to "just say no" and use a pocket card to back them up. Watch your weather trends and your fuel moistures.

One solution, is to give those IA IC's the resources they request to get the job done-and early enough in the fight to make the difference.

"Another CDF BC"

It was a very safe drop and it was also an effective drop. The retardant you see coming out didn't hit the ground for another 200 feet past the hair pin curve that the fire fighters were on. You have to see the whole picture of the area to understand the true story. There was very steep terrain involved here. After the tanker passed this area, the terrain drops off very steep. The photo just doesn't give justice to the distance from the edge of the cliff and the terrain that we were working.

I was the lead on the drop. It was safe and effective.
Other wise it wouldn't have been done.
Mike...

Thanks & Adios,
CJD

It is an awesome pic. Many people have sent it in and wanted details. This photo was taken during the Curve Fire on the Angeles National Forest by Leo Jarzomb, San Gabriel Valley Newspaper Group who undoubtedly holds the copyright. You can check the fire dates via the "current Fires 2002" link above. It is posted on the Curve Fire website. I've put a link to that version on the AirTanker 6 photo page, so you can all get a gander at it. Any AT folks have more details of the drops made at that location that day? Ab.

Put it on the logo 5 page. Thanks. We're getting quite a collection. Ab.

Thankfully, a division sup was up with the squad. He told my squadboss to hold where he was and that he would tie back in with him. 20 minutes and a whole lot of fire later, my squadboss informed me that it was getting too hot and hairy for them to be there. I tried to inform the div sup of what was going on but I couldn't get a response. I had my squadboss try it, he got a hold of him and without the div sup even being there the div sup told him to hold even though my squadboss had told him the conditions. I got on a vantage and saw where they were, I immediately ordered my squadboss to go to the secondary safety zone. Within about 10 minutes of them leaving, the area that they were in was engulfed.

During that fire I counted 5 days (out of 14) that we had no safety zones established and 3 days where our escape route was a mile or 2 back to the vehicles and drive back to camp. And there were 6 days when we were in safety zones.

Now, the Biscuit fire was one for the books. I'm glad I was a part of it and with this post I am not complaining. I couldn't be happier due to the fact no one got hurt or killed. But, how close do we want to push the envelope...

Grateful

Here's a link to a Sacramento Bee story about the USFS investigation of the July 28 engine rollover on the Stanza Fire on the KNF.

www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/4988464p-5996783c.html

--AL

A sad story. We'll miss them. I'm glad the investigation is done. Ab.

I watched Fire on the Mountain last night and there was one thing I kept hearing over and over. Why did it take so long for the BLM to take action on the fire. A costly mistake, however did we learn from this mistake? I saw a posting from JW awhile ago about the Sour Biscuit, it seemed to me that what JW was saying was no we haven't. Although there were no firefighter fatalities It was one of the biggest fires ever and the potential was always there.

Dick Mangan, honored to share the same bulletin board with you Sir.

Frosty

Now don't go sayin' that, Frosty, else he'll get a more swelled head than he already has. <tongue firmly in cheek> HAW HAW. You'd feel *really* honored if you knew everyone else you share this board with. Ab.

If things come together I plan on being there.

Jim

I'm sleuthing for video footage of excellent extreme fire behavior on the Biscuit Fire Complex (when it was sometimes called the Florence (East) or later - Zone 1). I'm talking flames and runs, building convection columns - the dragon at its worst. Some still photos on the Biscuit fire page demonstrate what I'm talking about. They're stills and mostly from a distance, but you can see the threatening header of that fire. It was around the time when the evacuation notices were out for the Illinois River Valley -- Cave Junction, Kerby, etc.

I have heard there was at least one seasoned firefighter who shot video with his little hand held Digital Video camera maybe sometime during the last week of July through the middle of August. Others saw the video. Did anyone reading here see it, know who took it? Probably there was more than one person shooting frames then...

A few other cues to time and situation.

• IC Mike Lohrey (pronounced lowr-eye) and his PNW Team headed up the east/ northeast side firefighting efforts.
• There were 1500 personnel in July expanding up to 6000 personnel in mid-August on all zones of the fire. WOW, needle in a haystack. But the person who took the video was probably a bit up the chain-of-command since he was a "veteran". DIVS? BRANCH? FBAN? OPS? (Lasagna, were you there then?)
• There had been a red flag warning from 7-31 to 8-1, but there were also other days in that time period that had Foehn winds and/or extreme fire behavior with significant runs, torching in groups of trees, high ROS and convection columns.

Mellie

NMAirBear -- the Boot Saloon? Sidle right up to the bar and get fitted? Oh you poor innocents, you. Any of you end up on a boat to China? If not, you were extremely lucky!

Woodstove crankin' here, too. Lookin' forward to the rain. The snow brings another set of problems in my mountains. I could do without snow, still have some travelin' to do an' miles to go before I sleep.

Relax... my western friends. Shift gears.
Well mebee you all in SoCal better stay on the ready... Things are still cookin' down there.
Be Safe.

Ab.

Actually, we went instead to the (no kidding) Boot Saloon which was across
the Arcata plaza from Guido's. I haven't been back there for an entire
career of almost 30 years so thanks for the update.

NMAirBear

For real though, does any forest or district have a policy (written or otherwise) on clean nomex? In the structural world, many departments have policies for cleaning gear to prevent what's called "Secondary Contamination." That's basically when you throw your nasty gear in the back of your car or in your locker and it leaves the products of combustion on the seat or your other uniforms and equipment. Think about it, would you let your children sit in smoke? Then why let them sit next to your gear bag of nomex in the back seat of your car?

How often do some of you clean your helmet? shroud? shirt? brushcoat? rinse off your gear?

Besides the contamination issue, I'm tempted to think that the dirt and grit that build up after awhile would break down the nomex and reduce it's flame resistance.

Any ideas or thoughts on this?

EMT_Micah

PS (In reference to NFPA standards) The park service policy, per Reference Manual 18, is to not purchase any PPE that isn't NFPA approved.

I don't know if it's the boots. Don't really care. As a hotshot, we are routinely asked to go into the steepest terrain and work. It takes no great leap of faith to understand that arduous work in steep terrain is tough on knees. This discussion seems a bit ludicrous in the face of the job we do. It's very physical and very intense, much like high-level athletics.

As we watch professional athletes become crippled with arthritis and age, doesn't it only make sense that wildland ff's would do the same.

Oh yeah, Love my White's, like my Drew's and hate my Nick's.

-blackliner

From 1995 thru 2000, I served as the Chair of the NFPA Technical Committee that deals with Protective Clothing and Equipment for Wildland Firefighters; its designated NFPA 1977 ( the structural folks use NFPA 1971). The NFPA Standards are voluntary, reached by consensus of users, management, manufacturers, labor unions, test labs, etc: a total of 9 groups are represented, with 30 voting members. It's a minimum standard, and is generally issued for a 5 year period. The 2 that have existed for wildland gear were issued in 1993 and 1998. The 2003 has been delayed, waiting the recent MTDC work on the fire shelter.

The Standards are not law: you don't have to use them, although most agencies, departments and insurance companies support them. The real rub comes when something "breaks": a burnover, with injuries and/or deaths. The first question that OSHA and the victim's lawyers want to know is: "was the equipment/clothing NFPA-compliant"?? If not, why not!! Do you know more than a national consensus group?? So, its real close to having legal standing!

The stuff you buy should be labeled as "NFPA 1977-compliant" the year it was manufactured. It's still good and useable years down the road, as long as its maintained, and not recalled.

The certification of NFPA compliance is issued by "3rd Party Certification Lab" such as Underwriters Lab. They are paid to conduct independent tests that verify that the clothing/equipment performs to the minimum level specified in the Standard. If a company meets that test, they can advertise "NFPA-compliant". Others try to give the impression that they are NFPA compliant by using terms like "meets or exceeds NFPA Standards", but they ain't totally tested and legal. For example, there are no NFPA respiratory standards for respiratory protection devices like Hot Shield or WHIFFS. The Standards are developed by analyzing the risks and hazards, then identifying PPE that will mitigate the risks at the minimally acceptable level. Another example: GSA hardhats are OK, and way cheaper than Bullard 911-C. Both meet the Standards, so make your decision with your $$$.

Structural gear (turnout coats, bunker boots, helmets) exceed the heat and fire protection levels that NFPA 1977 require, but can't meet the heat stress requirements, helmet weights, and non-skid/lace-up requirements for boots. The NFPA 1977 Technical Committee that worked up the 1998 version had wildfire reps from the USFS, NPS, BLM, NC Forestry, PA Forestry, GA Forestry, IAFF, LA County and CDF. There were also folks from clothing manufacturers, boot companies, hardhats, and UL test lab

The current Chair is George Jackson at the USFS-MTDC.
More than you ever wanted to know about NFPA 1977............!

Dick Mangan

Tahoe Terrie

NC Crew has the rest pretty well explained, as explained topics fall under codes, most of 10xx relates to training for example NFPA 1001 relates to entry level firefighters, 1500 safety, 19xx apparatus and equipment. For more information you can check the NFPA website, http://www.nfpa.org/Home/index.asp you need a membership to access much of the material but I think you can get the listing of standards without one. Once you know the number you can probably find articles related to it on the web by using a search engine like Yahoo or Google. Even if your particular agency does not "follow" NFPA it is a good idea to be familiar with the standards, a training officer in New York State is facing prison time for negligent homicide following some fatalities on a training burn, the total lack of following accepted standards (NFPA or otherwise) was the primary cause of the courts findings.

I know the structural side of the federal government has adopted all of NFPA, I don't know if the wildland agencies have as well or if they are using the forestry tech title to avoid them.

Fedfire

I put it on the Misc2 page. Ab.

Thank You,
Dr. James M. Gleckler
Forestry & Wildlife Department

I put it on our page of educational institutions that have 2 and 4 year fire science and fire ecology degrees. Ab.

First thing about NFPA, it's a recommendation not law, unfortunately it's so well established it often carries the weight of law. The code, i.e., NFPA 1710, 1500, 1972 and so on are just reference numbers. The following number NFPA 1972-98 is the year in which the code was published or updated.

NFPA, does grandfather things. A couple of years ago, NFPA voided the compliance of the full brim hard hat because it was too heavy. However anything that's still in good condition and was in service prior to the new rule is still considered compliant. The old hard hats fall under the standards that they were manufactured to meet.

So, unless they put a special provision in the new fire shelter standards that disallows old ones, they will still be good.

Couple more things about NFPA.
NFPA 1977 is the standard that covers wildland firefighting. NFPA publishes HUGE books containing all of the codes, that cover everything about gear; from how long it can be exposed to temperatures at and above 500 degrees, puncture resistance, weight, size, color, electrical resistance, reflective trim, and various angles of impact; and just how much of this abuse the gear can take and still keep you alive. Any structural fire department should have a copy of these rules. Also, no agency is required by law to follow NFPA, most structural agencies do for some reason, I think it has to do that NFPA's standards are so high that if you meet them, all others are followed (i.e., OSHA). If you ever look at a pair of nomex pants that you get through the FS, it meets the US Forest Service own specifications not NFPA, now look at a pair you may have bought though a company like Galls, National FF, etc...it meets NFPA, not FS specs.

Hope that helps.

-NCCrew

A report from the SacBee: www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/4934511p-5946364c.html

"The federal panel co-chaired by Jim Hall (National Transportation and Safety Board) met in Sacramento to consider the future of aerial firefighting. Commissioned by Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth and Interior Secretary Gale Norton, the panel is trying to sort out, among other things, whether this year's crashes were the consequence of depending on surplus military planes that are ready for retirement."

Aerial firefighters and others participated in giving information to the Blue Ribbon Panel (BRP) in Sacramento last Thursday. I know some groundpounders are interested in aerial firefighting but fairly new to the issues. One letter that addresses issues and has lots of good information and explanation of terms was sent in to the BRP by John Watt.

John has allowed Ab to reproduce his letter HERE. Some other letters can be found on the AAP board (found via the Links page).

Does anyone have a simple explanation of the certifications (NFPA) that boots, clothing, gear go through for wildland firefighters? I'm about to be a consumer and I realized I don't understand the system.

What does it mean that something meets some NFPA 19xx to xx , like NFPA 1975-99? (like the fleece jacket in the box above) Since this is 2002, does that mean it's not a current certification? Does every part of the product need to be certified or is the whole product certified? Do companies submit their products for certifications? Do large companies with a track record of certifications like on boots have better chances than small ones to get certified on new products?

Oh, I also wondered what happens to all the old fire shelters in stock when the new ones come in? or any other item that has a newer version? Does the government buy those back from suppliers? Are the old ones banned? Is there a transition time when both old and new can be used?

Tahoe Terrie

Ab.

When I asked my ancient relative, he said that Guido is alive and well, although he retired and sold Plaza Shoe about 12 years ago. The shop has since moved a block off the plaza into a stylin' new building they constructed and painted mauve! Still sell the same boots (as well as birkenstocks), but I wonder how many Foresters are willing to enter their mauve portals to buy "high heels" there? <chortle><guffaw>

Re the Snack Foods thread - I heard that as much as 5 mil might have been spent on snacks this last season. That may not have been inordinately high given the total summer fire expenditure. Might not be a bad idea to have a unified interagency SOP for purchasing snacks, though. Gordon, as far as sodas in firecamp, I haven't ever seen any available. Is my experience limited or are sodas really available anywhere? I did see one contractor engine hoarding snacks on the Megram. The Branch was onto them, though, and corrected it pronto.

BLM Bob, I really like it that you appear to be fey every once in a while. This place can sometimes get way too serious. Glad you're still wearing those "high heels" and watching who's watching you! I'm also glad we've left behind the thread that dominated several weeks ago. Seems we had enough information and speculation on that. I know the issues are still there. Hopefully some things are getting resolved in appropriate ways. I don't need to preach to the choir here that we can each do our share to act appropriately (and within the law).

Mellie

In the future, you can access it from our Site Map. I have also put a link to it on the Documents Worth Reading List on the Archives page.

Ab.

I bought my first pair of Whites from Guido in Arcata (Old Guys, remember him??) in 1971. I have worn my Smokejumpers to date and they are bar none without reservation the best possible boots you can wear to fight fire. OK, there are probably equivalents out there that are just as good. I haven't tried them.

This is not a plug for Whites this is a plug for boots of that style and quality that many of us wear.

Now, in my mid fifties I certainly, after many years of abuse of my body, particularly in the fire environment, I have chronic back and knee problems like so many of the rest of us.

It ain't the friggin boots folks!!! It doesn't take a doctor (or any high GS bureaucrat) to tell us our boots are the cause of our problems. If you abuse your back and knees as we do categorically in firefighting they are going to give out.

Also, for years I have preached to firefighters that they buy good boots for obvious reasons. The bottom line is they are built to fight fire. They are safer in the sense that they are good to your feet and if you need to, as many of us have, you can run like a rabbit in them.

With due respects to the manufacturers of such great boots I for one thank you for so many years of a good product.

NMAirBear

Also, these boots are evolved from caulked logging boots, and the high heel helps immensely with traction and stability when walking over logs and branches - it's much more stable when standing on a log or hooked over a branch. These boots were designed primarily for working in the woods rather than long hikes.

The high heel has been a feature on logging boots since the 19th century (way before there were smokejumpers). In fact, I'm making an assignment for every one reading this site to go get Norman Macleans book, "A River Runs Through It" and find the part that describes White's boots. I think it's "Logging and Pimping and Your Pal Jim" or else it's "USFS 1919, etc." This material will be on the test.

Sheesh, today's kids...

Granted, that high heel's not much of a help on rocks (or in fire camp, you camp puppies, heh heh), but the high heel on logger/fire boots is there to help you hold on sidehill in duff and dirt.

BLM Bob

When you get as old as me, you just wear them to impress people and have the hotties check out your...never mind.

On the other hand, I'm used to my "heels". They've kept me from taking many a tumble and when your carrying a saw or using it in mountain goat country, tumbles can be deadly.

Flatfoot

I was told the reason for the "tall" heels ( my preferred description as for some reason I'm not very comfortable being called the "guy in the high heels" ) was that they throw your weight forward making it easer and taking less energy to walk. That is why the boots are good to walk in but don't feel nearly as good just standing around. There may not be a lick of truth in it, but that's what I was told and it sounds O. K. to me.

Mossback

On the Florence / Biscuit fires I would see the snack distributors 53' tractor there twice a day; That was just our camp on the Chetco.

I heard the rumor that they were spending close to 100k a day on snack food (just a rumor - w/ no backing) Perhaps a limit on what people can take would be appropriate. Just a thought

eric

The IAT understands the importance of supplemental foods to the health, safety and well being of firefighters. Only those items that reduce fatigue and improve mental alertness should be purchased at a reasonable cost. (etc)

Policy: The incident agency is responsible for providing the supplemental food and drink policy to the IMT (FSH 5109.34, 25.4). Within the Forest Service, there is no National supplemental food and drink policy, therefore, each agency administrator of a fire must ensure that a policy is provided to the IMT.

Action:

1. Each Agency Administrator should issue a supplemental food policy if one does not exist on the incident.
2. Supplemental foods are only to be purchased as provided in the policy for the incident.
3. All individuals associated with the ordering, purchase and distribution of supplemental foods should use good, prudent judgment and to avoid those items that may appear to be extravagant, exotic or costly.
4. Units should also review and share the cost of supplemental food purchases with the Incident Management Teams on a regular basis to ensure proper management is occurring. The ultimate responsibility for the management of supplemental foods rests with the local agency administrator.

The IAT also recommends that the issue of supplemental food be addressed Nationally, before next fire season, to determine once again if there is a consistent National policy for all Forest Service managed incidents. (etc)

I do not know about the effects of the elevated heel on knees and backs. My knees are pretty much shot, but I blame that on carrying modest to heavy loads, e.g. MKIII pumps, Gerry cans, CJRL, Hudson pump bags, line pack, etc., on steep terrain for years. I also used to do this downhill trot, sort of a controlled fall or modified glissade, when I was on talus or soft dirt. I don’t think my knees appreciated that much.

But, would advise never to walk straight uphill, always zigzag as it will put less strain on the knee joint, especially when carrying a heavy pack.

Nick’s, my boot of choice for 20+ years, as probably being the best for most folks. High quality insoles are important. Wear one pair cotton or wool sox.

If you get foam or retardant on your boots, remove as soon as possible, your friendly Water Tender Operator should be able to help. Use only neets foot oil and saddle soap for maintenance. Use only leather laces and rotate the eyelets, with a Leatherman or Swiss Army blade periodically.

One last trick was to callous the bottoms of my feet in the spring by going barefoot as much as possible. It gives you an extra natural leather pad and helps prevent any blistering or bruising.

DM

the discussion about high heeled boots and knee and back problems is a good one, and as someone who works the lines in the summer to help pay for med. school, an interesting one to me. there is lots of anecdotal evidence out there, and i heard something once about the FS studying jumpers' knees (though i would have picked hotshots). anybody know the results of that one?

a couple things to keep in mind when trying to find boots:

-everyone's foot is different: high arch, low arch, morton's toe (2nd toe bigger than first = a contributor to knee problems), etc. find a boot that fits you and is comfortable for you. unfortunately, boots are expensive and due to a long break in time, you don't often know until its too late. talk to the folks who make the boots. also, try to find a good doctor who can recommend something for your foot - more arch support, less, etc. unfortunately, doctors are expensive, and you don't often know about them until its too late either.

-nobody's body was designed to do fireline work for an extended period of time. some may handle it better, but everyone will eventually break down if they stay at the job long enough. humans weren't designed to carry 35 lb packs for 16 hours a day while on steep slopes - there's no way getting around it.

-there are good and bad doctors out there: finding one that you're comfortable with is the most important part. you should be able to trust your doctor - and if you can't, hopefully you can find a new one. but also remember that most doctors have very little idea of what a body goes though during fire season - explain your job as much as possible. ask questions about your foot and the types of footwear that might help alleviate your pain.

-take care of your knees and back as much as possible. i haven't seen many firefighters stretching. and i've never seen guys ice their knees (though thats tough in the field). but firefighters' bodies go through as much stress as competative runner or football players. maybe this is a part of the fire culture - a grin and bear it mentality. though sometimes an ounce of prevention....

anyway, hope this helps some out there,

JerseyBoy

I have been alternating between a pair of Whites and Nicks for a few years now. I really can't tell the difference except the Nicks do have a thicker sole (1/4") and better quality leather. But I have had no knee problems and I have been wearing Whites exclusively before 1979. I had some minor knee problems in High school from track and cross country, but nothing since.

On the matter of Condritin and Glucosamine, I have tried taking that combo as a preventative measure (40+ years old and I hope to stay on the fireline through 50), and I did notice a little improvement in my ankles and hips as far as occasional pain, but what I really noticed was an increase in my blood cholesterol, the bad kind. So keep an eye on that if you utilize this supplement.

Captain 180

Just did a quick Google search. There is a connection with LDL (bad) cholesterol. In addition, the two collagen supplements mentioned above, which are sometimes taken for arthritis, can also be harmful to those (of northern European descent) who are prone to a condition called Dupuytrens Contracture (nodules in hands and/or feet, progressing to greater deformity and perhaps involving shoulder, etc).

My friends, before taking any supplement or med, please consult your physician for negative side effects (and research it on the web). Ab.

Good link to the investigation of the Biscuit Fire in your post of 10/9.

I'm happy to see that some taxpayers are asking questions about some of
our interagency ineffectiveness. Possibly our customers can goad us into
performing better.

The second link you sent on 10/9 seems to be the most
accurate. I heard that some folks in Del Norte county are pretty hacked.
The cross-border problems just go on, and on, and on................

Thanks for the info.
JW

I have one knee hotshot.
The other has had the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) replaced.
My "orthopod"
says I will have to have the hotshot knee replaced soon.
Says, he sees few 10-15 year veteran firefighters
who don't have a knee or back problem,
a back or knee problem.
Of course hes the regular SawBones
so meebe his sample is skewed
toward
the "broken an' worn out" end of the
F/F spectrum.
He advises, Get em fixed
fast,
the longer you wait, the worse is the interior wear.
An' arthritis starts early.
But I've seen his hack saw an' I'm not eager.
I'll have to ask him what he thinks about
pains or ailments related to
--tall heeled boots.
Keep him talkin' and he's less likely to get out that
saw.

As far as backs go,
some o my buds have Lumbar
L4 and L5 problems
--lower back.
Think theyre related to tall heels?
Must ask 'em.

Bad knees and backs seem to go with the
job.
I would think that conditioning,
posture, good livin' an' safe practices have
a big influence on the longevity of back and knees.
Don't know about boots.
Hmmmmm, since I've had good conditioning, posture,
have lived very well
--must be the boots that'r the culprit.

Young once,
pirouette, plie,
Now just Hop-a-Long

But I wander, anyway the bookmaker said the "clip heel" or "cruiser heel" was designed that way so a person would cover more ground with each step. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but does make sense if you think about the mechanics of waking and how much farther your foot travels with a clip heel vs. a flat heel, not much but over the course of the day it does add up. And does the high heel extend your leg so you are taking a longer step with each stride?

Washington Pete,

I wonder how many crew bosses, squad bosses and groundpounders there are who have worked five, ten or more years who don't have bad knees. Probably not many.

We should be documenting knee injuries. Every time you limp off the fire line, record it. Seems we should be able to make the case for knee problems being presumed to be job related. What do you think?

How is pursuit of that presumptive illness/disability legislation going anyway?

Crip, formerly called Strider

We are currently seeking individuals with extensive fire experience to assist us in training the future leaders of wildland fire. The National Wildland Firefighter Academy is presenting the outstanding "Fireline Leadership" course, put on by Mission Centered Solutions, to our Advanced students. We seek experienced fire instructors to perform as the subject matter experts, in conjunction with MCS instructors, to teach this highly-regarded, well-received class. Your forum looks like an excellent venue to solicit this help. Please consider posting the application on your site. Call me at 916-643-4867 if you have any questions. Keep up the great work! We all appreciate the forum you offer.

Thanks.
Scott Whitmire

HERE's the "Instructors Needed" document and application. I converted it into html and was not able to provide the Forest Service headers but the rest is accurate. I'll put a link to this on the Jobs page also. Deadline is November 15th. Ab.

The BLM does not have any official policy of not hiring people that have been convicted of crimes. I have hired people that have been convicted of offenses that range from from minor to major (time served). They can be passed over pretty easily if the hiring official wants to, but they don't have to be. My approach has been that sometimes people make mistakes, and if they have made amends and they are a good hand, then they can be considered for fire jobs. No one has shown me a policy that says I can't do that. Strong recommendations and references from people I knew and respected are what usually got me to overlook the record (hint, hint).

But if an applicant states they haven't been in any trouble with the law and then it's shown otherwise, the app can be tossed (or if you get hired, you can be fired later on if you lied on your app). I have seen people checked out that responded 'no' - I knew one guy that used to check out people that he wanted to get around on the roster to see if they had an unmentioned DWI or something, so whatever you do, don't omit or lie about any recorded brushes with the law. But also don't believe people that say they can't hire you just because you've been convicted - they can hire you, however they can also use your record as a reason not to.

Another exception is if the conviction makes it impossible for you to do the job duties as listed in the PD - things like a revoked driver's license, or if you're unable to leave the state.

So, you may not get a fire job if you've got a record, but you should also know that your record doesn't necessarily prevent you from being hired. If you can get someone in the fire community to put in a word on your behalf to the hiring official, that can help. And the hiring official may have to wrangle with supervisors or HR people, but if you're having trouble hiring someone because of a brush with the law, ask to see the policy in writing. No one's ever been able to show anything to me that said no convictions allowed.

BLM Bob

High heels ( I would prefer to call them "tall heels") might aggravate knee problems or even cause some themselves. I had knee and ankle joint problems since I was 14 years old and just stepped careful and "sucked it up" when in pain. I did not take "pain killers" as I did not want to ignore the pain and in doing so cause more damage. As a firefighter high top boots laced tight helped prevent ankle sprains but when I tried "tall heel" boots my knees became much more painful nearly immediately. Medium heels seemed to be the best for me...but I still had to grin and bear it after a series of long days on the fireline. I was not alone it seemed since I spoke to quite a few other firefighters over the years that had injured joints, especially knees, which "flared up" occasionally and never seemed to completely heal. Doctors will tell you that joints heal very slowly and once injured tend to take abuse less well.

I am now what most firefighters would consider an "OLD GUY" and for the first time in nearly 30 years my old joint injuries are gone! I am not someone that takes pills or supplements...normally. Pain is there to tell you something is wrong and nutrition is what food is for IMHO. But...after a friend (health professional) gave me a bottle of "nutritional supplement" Glucosamine and Chondroiten (500mg and 400mg respectively) my joint problems went away and did not return. Not immediately...it took about a month and a half. While not a clinical study I have to say in 30 years my knees have never been "stronger" and less prone to "wearing out quickly". I don't sell these supplements and except for this post don't promote them. If you have joint injuries or chronic joint pain this may be worth a try. Might even be worth taking if you have good knees and are in a profession which "uses them up" like firefighting.

Sorry if this seems like I am trying to turn They Said into an "old geezers" joint pain clinic....but most of the folks on the line that I met with similar problems were "YOUNG GUYS" with an otherwise long career in the outdoors ahead of them. And thanks for keeping They Said up and running day in day out. I hope folks remember that they can help support this site simply by buying things they need (like presents for the wives and girlfriends they neglected all season) through the Amazon "clickthrough". Ahem..by the way Ab where is that thing? It has been a while since I used it (last Christmas) and I can't seem to find it now.

Fireronin

Thanks for the reminder, Fireronin. I just bought a new computer monitor using that Amazon "clickthrough". Amazon had the product I wanted and their price was the best. It came in 3 days. (My old one blew up with all the recent flaming over the harassment issue.) To find the clickthrough, go to the Books page. The Amazon rectangle is black and on the right. For us to get the few bucks "kickback", ya gotta go through our site with each new order. Every little bit from Amazon helps support this site.

While we're talking about the Books page, I do have some new books and reviews to add, perhaps today. If people are looking for good fire books for friends, check out the books page resource. I'll try to get the new ones up asap.

Ab.

I also wonder about the reasonableness of hiring convicted arsonists to fight fire - even those who have done their time. There was one arsonist who was pointed out to me on the Megram Fire. Someone told me he had done time. Can't remember if agency, contract or vollie. Apparently he was shunned by firefighters who knew, but there he was... Does anyone know if arsonists are hired? I'd have trouble trusting such a person to watch my back. Geez louise, pin that guy down with a fork!

Mellie

PS on boots. WELL, I for one won't wear high heel boots! It's impossible to keep my seams straight -- in my wool sox! But I don't mind watching those cute ff guys who do wear highheels! They definitely have a nice walk! What do folks think about sore backs and high heels? Are those two related?

The BLM checks. This used to be a standard question on the old SF-171. With the advent of Quickhire this is not asked for until later in the hiring process on another form which I can't remember the number for. It seems that it is up to the applicant to respond if they have a history or not, I have never encountered having someone responding no to the question checked. It is also interesting that if you have been charged but not convicted you still will not be hired (innocent until proven guilty?). I don't know at what level of crime this starts, but I have had applicants that I wanted to hire that I could not.

ERL

Tony was over helping us out in Idaho and Montana in 2000.
Mollysboy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At present the only agencies with a seasonal employment program that I know of are mine, the Parks and Wildlife Service here in Tasmania, State Forests in NSW, another small operator, and the Victorian Department of Natural Resources and Environment (NRE). Our program is tiny, we employ 20-25 people, State Forests is similar as far as I know, and NRE employs 500-600. There is no Australian federal government equivalent of the Forest Service or the Department of the Interior land management agencies: BLM, NPS, FWS, BIA. In Australia, all land management functions are conducted at State level, and there are no extensive tracts of Federal lands, or rather none in the sense you know them in the USA.

NRE already has an exchange program in place with BC Forestry in Canada, principally exchanging rappellers. This is a long standing arrangement, with a formal agreement between the State and the Provincial governments. Because of the high level of unemployment in Aus, and the restrictions on employing overseas personnel (both legal and political) NRE has generally been unwilling to employ additional people from overseas to undertake basic firefighting for fear of jeopardizing the rappel crew exchange program. Thats not to say it doesn't happen, but not often, and it really depends on the circumstances.

I employed a Canadian firefighter a couple of years ago, and would be happy more overseas personnel if i could do it without too much grief. However there are a few problems which make it difficult to do, and a fair bit of work for me which makes it a bit of a drag to do.

First of all, if you are under 27 and haven't previously had a working holiday visa you can get one of those, which allows you to work legally in Aus. If you just come as a tourist on a normal automatic entry you have no right to work, and without a work permit no government agency, state or federal, will touch you. The catch is that the working holiday visa entitles you to work for a max period of 3 months in total and is meant to cover casual bar work, fruit picking etc, definitely not to cover someone coming to a pre-arranged job.

A major problem if you are ducking and diving around the visa conditions is the workers compensation insurance: travel insurance generally doesn't cover injuries received while working illegally. That would leave the employing agency carrying the can, and ultimately the person who employed you would be in serious strife.

The other alternative is for you to come on a Business Visa with Work Permit. To get one of those you must be sponsored by the employer, in this case one of the the State Governments, which would have to demonstrate that there was absolutely no-one in Aus who could do the work before the visa would be approved. That means, publicly advertising the position and then having a cast iron reason to reject every local applicant. The employer is responsible for all your medical expenses etc, and it costs a $2000 application fee on top of all that, which is non refundable if the application fails.

If that sounds hard, I can only say I guess you haven't ever applied for a permit to work in the USA as a foreigner. The INS is downright hostile unless you are in one of the identified target groups, eg a computer software developer perhaps.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but its better that you know the general situation before you spend too much time on this project.

You might like to ask your local crews how they have arranged matters, and where they are going to be working. I haven't heard of firefighters being brought to Aus from the US, or even any serious talk of it happening.

Good luck,
Tony Blanks
Senior Fire Management Officer
Parks and Wildlife Service
Hobart, Tasmania

Thanks, I added that to the description of the memorial. Ab.

Waiting to prance again.

JJ

Ab.

Ab.

Finally, some time to relax......R-3 is still high to very high, and we're look'in to the west for our first precip! Yea, right! The drought years just keep on a coming!

J,
you question regarding the USFS Fire shirt's.....Traveling T's out of Reno, sorry that I don't have a number, but I went back on my "fire" expenditures for the season and found a CC receipt.

Curious firefighter,
Have AB send you my e-mail addy, and I'll give you a couple of near misses that I was directly involved in around the early/mid '90s here in R-3.

Anyone out there from CDF land, I have heard numerous rumors from the folks on the floor at local county stations and admin folks in the emerald office in Sac city that the CDF is about to have an examination for engineer/paramedic and captain/ paramedic. Can anyone tell me when......I've heard a few weeks to next March. I was also told that this is going to be a BIG REQUEST FOR PARAMEDICS. I was told that the CDF wants paramedics at every schedule "A" station and most of, if not all Schedule "B" stations.
This is going to be really hard order to fill, considering that the DOT national paramedic program is heading for the two year training programs, California state wide is shy about 1500 paramedics (per the CA EMSA) and nationally, we are seeing a shortage of fire experienced paramedics just to fill the current fire department jobs that are out there.

AZ Trailblazer

If rainfall patterns don't change in the Pacific Northwest this winter, could be an interesting fire season next year.

I nearly became physically ill when I heard the news about the bombing in Bali and the number of Australian victims. I've been to that very night spot in Denpasar. Bali is a beautiful, peaceful island. It's a mostly autonomous, largely Hindu state in a Muslim country and frequented by Westerners.

Catching up on They Said and reading about the LP issue, perhaps it's time for some people to have a reality check.

And take a breath.

There are REAL problems in the world outside the Happy Valley we cocoon ourselves in. If you want to see pure evil, look at Bali, 9-11 or the sniper in D.C. Those responsible for this carnage are our problem, not some firefighter who displayed a flash of immature, boorish behavior most efficiently addressed by a diligent supervisor.

Snake River Sparky

1. Some people are too thin skinned.
2. Some people just don't know how to be considerate of others.
3. Its the law. If you don't like it, call your congressman.