I just wanted to let everyone know that the AirTanker Pilots are getting organized to pursue acquiring federal Public Safety Officers Benefits (PSOB). They have had success in obtaining such benefits in California in Sept when AB1748 was signed into law. Some of us sent e-mails and letters to our CA legislators in support of that effort. There may be ways we can lobby our fed reps on their behalf for this legislation as well.

To learn about the history of this effort and what's involved, please check AERIAL FIRE FIGHTERS, Battle for Federal Benefits. Some nice AT photos there also.

Mellie

Thanks for keeping us posted. Ab.

Bean and Union Fires (BTU, near Oroville, CDF managed)
100% contained at 250 acres on 11/28; transition back to BTU anticipated tomorrow
still has 350+ personnel, many CDC crews doing suppression rehab

Wengler Fire (SHU, Shasta Co near Montgomery Creek, CDF managed)
100% contained at 50 acres; 34 personnel; turning back to Roseberg Lumber Co today

Buckhorn Fire (SHU, Shasta Co near Oak Run CDF managed)
20 acres; turned over to Roseberg Lumber Co 11/28

Old Fire (HUU at Freshwater Lagoon, Humboldt Co, CDF managed)
contained at 10 acres

Pine Fire (MEU, near Hopland/Cloverdale, CDF managed)
100% contained at 1200 acres; 200+ personnel doing mopup and patrol; demob expected today

River Fire (RRU, Riverside Co, Norco, CDF managed)
20% contained at 10 acres, but oh what a smoky 10 organic compost pile, 30' deep, smoldering & burning; crews working on the inside are wearing SCBA, FF given breaks often in cleaner air environment.

Then there are the Plum Fire on the El D that will be turned back to the forest tonight, the Rock Creek 2 Fire that's expecting a major demob tomorrow and the Sourgrass Cplx of fires that are expecting a cold front tonight that may have winds and create a containment problem... Read about those on the Sit Report.

What a late flurry of fires in CA.
AL

On another note, some news from our Fire News page:
Woman accused of setting forest fire expected to change plea to guilty
Terry Barton accused of starting the Hayman Fire that burned 137,760 acres and was the largest in Colorado history is expected to make a plea bargain.

Ab.

JWW

Be Safe and happy eating. Ab.

Some new photos up on Fire 14 and Handcrews 6 photo pages. Thanks contributors.
JB sent in photos of the Cannon Fire. Sunrise was from the IC camp.
B. M. sent in an old '75 photo of a brushfire in Riverside County.
Wol sent in photos of the Olinda Hotshots - Dandenong Ranges National Park, Victoria Australia.
Please read the descriptions for more information.

Ab.

Dave

Last night an escaped Rx burn was discovered NE of Cloverdale. There are 2 fires less than a mile apart that are making some pretty impressive runs and spotting pretty good. Rough terrain -I heard they've gobbled up 450 acres. 200+ structures are being protected by local resources and CDF. Got some dozers. Temps in the 70's and RH in the low 20's. What a scene for the day before Thanksgiving.

LAVE, did they bring you out of retirement?
Todd

The smoke inhalation injuries occurred on the River Fire, the one
with the piles of burning brush, organic matter, etc. (see post below).
A friend said there were 3 FF injured from smoke inhalation and
taken to the hospital. Two were released and one remained. An
investigation is underway.

AL

A new fire (11/26), the Bean Fire is located 20 mi E of Oroville, Butte Unit CDF in heavy brush and timber. It was 300 acres and 25% contained. 250+ mostly CDF personnel are staffing that fire. Yesterday's fire behavior included short uphill runs and torching and spotting 300-400 feet in front of the fire. Strong nighttime NE winds were expected overnight, so we'll see what's up today. They also expect demob on Thanksgiving.

South Zone:
The River Fire, 10 acres, Riverside Ranger Unit CDF (River Rd at Archibald, Norco). Fuels are 10 Acres of organic recycling, compost, tree trimmings, and wood chips from small trees to garden sized chips. Rows are 75 feet wide, 200 feet long and piled 30 feet deep. The fire is deep seated and has 4-5 foot flame lengths. Potential high winds could cause spotting. Smoke is a problem. Appx 90 firefighters are on that fire.

The Old Hamner Fire, 5 acres, Riverside Ranger Unit CDF (Old Hamner at Santa Ana River, Norco). Yesterday the fire was actively running thru bamboo, with long range spotting and moved into a neighborhood along Pali Drive. Santa Ana winds made containment difficult but aggressive IA by 133 personnel kept damage to a minimum (2 roofs).

Rock Creek 2 Fire, Sierra National Forest (10 Miles East of North Fork), Madera Co was 130 acres last night, 60% contained, 2-4' flame lengths sometimes flaring to 4-6' in slash. 110 personnel made significant progress in line construction after winds died down.

Sourgrass Complex (Sourgrass, Mill Creek and Winton Fires), Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit CDF (10 mi E of Arnold on Hwy 4) was 550 acres 40% contained last night. There was spotting from slash piles. High winds, low fuel moisture and heavy slash. Wind conditions made containment attempts by the 650+ FF difficult. Blowing embers and danger of falling trees has required unstaffing the Sourgrass Fire during nights for FF safety. Yesterday winds moderated to a degree, allowing progress to be made. Projected demob is Thanksgiving.

Be Safe All.
Happy Thanksgiving, whether on the fireline, in camp or at home. Count your blessings.
AL

For those of you who have completed any elite military training, (Ranger school, Navy SEAL BUDS, Special forces Q-course, or Air Force para-rescue/ combat control school) and have completed at least one good hard long R-5 Hot shot or Alaska jumper season (you should know what a real fire season is all about, over 1000 hours overtime). What are the similarities and differences besides the obvious mission statements. Which is more taxing on the body? the mind? How about in the long term? Over a career? There probably are not many people who have had the opportunity to take part in all of the above, both of them being a young mans business. I would love to get some feedback from those who have made this sacrifice.

--Tom

Northzone5-

You’re correct; when possible we all need to speak to the facts. The trouble is we also get emotional when we see our avocation misrepresented. I read the Bureau of State Audits reports on employee misconduct and couldn’t find reference to portal-to-portal overtime in either the OES employee’s bogus non-emergency overtime claims, approved by his supervisor, or the CDF manager’s misuse of state aircraft to obtain his commercial multi-engine rating and King Air certification. If you can help me find the section let me know.

SoCalCapt, NorCalTom, FWFSA member, and others-

I believe Fedfire is right on the mark. First consider the source, 60 Minutes and Dan Rather. Muck raking at its best for years. Isn’t this the same program that we have people wanting to call when they feel they’ve been wronged? Sensational press is a two edged sword, it cuts both ways.

I don’t feel the IAFF acted irresponsibly by posting the article. The website personnel, who probably not firefighters, saw the contents of the nationally broadcast subject matter as being of interest to their members. Admittedly, the IAFF represents paid firefighters and champions their case. In contrast, I saw no reference to the 60 Minutes program listed on the National Volunteer Fire Council web site. (www.nvfc.org)

You complain about not having good, fair representation. You get what you pay for. If the numbers listed on this page are correct, the number of FWFSA members, nationally, is 0.7% of the total dues-paying members of the IAFF in California. CDF Firefighters, as an independent association, chose to join the IAFF in order to stay out of turf wars and to use the impact of becoming one of the five largest Locals in the nation. It works. If you don’t join then those nasty red-truckers, hydrant hoppers, and medics will have to carry you. Your glass can be half empty on the sidelines and it will always be half empty. Join up, speak your piece, and maybe your glass will start looking like it may get more than half full in the future.

Other than the misidentification of the federal employees, both considered part of the “ready reserves” to back up the line firefighters, I don’t see anyone jumping up to say that the rest of the information was bad. It may not be totally accurate but the concept is true. No one complained that the IAFF didn’t take out the mention of paid fire investigator, arsonist, murderer John Orr. He’s one of us good guys, right?

Mike Preasmeyer and Casey Judd-

You’re doing a good job, keep at it, eventually the potential members will realize that there is strength in numbers, life can be better, and you can still be an individual.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, and to the Abs and Abbys. For those on the fire line or in a war zone, my thoughts are with you.

JW

Nice one. I put it on Fire 14. Ab.

I don't have too much to give you but one thing to keep in mind: controlled burns are sometimes used to kill noxious weeds or other species of plant life that whoever manages the land does not want there. control burns aren't used necessarily to prevent future wildfires.

also, not all areas can be used for logging and if they did have an area that they logged as opposed to burned, it can still catch fire. (that would also make one hell of a pop-up operation with all of the burned out stumps from the logged trees.)

one fire comes to mind, the biscuit fire, where the crew i was on was preparing a road to do a burn and there, unfortunately, down the road a ways, the fire was on both sides of the road. but, there was a clear cut that had been logged earlier - way before the fire started- and so a few crews were punching line up the clear cut. they hauled ass because they didnt have to wait on the saws, and they successfully tied the line in with out further spread.

i dont' know how much i have helped you but i hope i at least gave you something you can use. good luck with your project.

-I love the off season
NP

Something I'd like to add though for those of you in the Federal Wildland side of things who think the FWFSA, IAFF and CPF are not doing anything for you (member or non-member). In the most recent IAFF convention (in Los Vegas this past year) there were a number of issues adopted by the IAFF to lobby congress specifically for Federal Firefighters including leave and pay issues, improved retirement (3% @ 50), presumptive illness laws and the portal to portal issue among others. Additionally the IAFF and CPF are largely responsible for saving the jobs of many Federal Firefighters whose jobs were threatened by contracting (and I know you wildland types are watching your backs on that issue too). I've met many of the leaders of the FWFSA and they are dedicated to improving the working conditions of Federal Wildland Firefighters, many of them are nearing the ends of their careers and likely will not gain much from the benefits they seek.

The FWFSA is only about 200 people, not much really when you consider the IAFF's membership is somewhere in the 10's of thousands, and yet they still find room for the FWFSA's issues. One thing that really exasperated me when I was with the USFS was the anti-union attitude and contempt for the FWFSA many of the firefighters I worked around displayed, I ran across many who felt the $15-20 a month was only for a sticker and not worth the money, and yet many played the lotto regularly (and with higher cost) and unfortunately I've seen some of the same attitudes displayed here. It is my understanding that there are still those working for the agencies who fight against issues like portal to portal and increasing the numbers of PFT and WAE employees. I know of instances in which employees were converted from WAE to PFT and threatened legal action for being offered full time employment because it would mess up their unemployment "vacations" in the winter, and there are many who fight tooth and nail against having "traditional structural" responsibilities added to their jobs (I will never understand how an agency can properly provide fire protection in an urban interface environment without providing the equipment and training for 1/2 of the equation).

I now work on the Federal Structural side but many of our issues and concerns are shared, one of the difficulties we are facing is getting our people to accept that we can no longer sit around and do things as they have always been done, we need to be proactive, get out in the community (not locked behind our gates) so that when politicians come around looking for something to cut they get a big red flag from the locals (the tax payers, aka voters), we need to be indispensable to the locals so that they see us as an integral part of their safety not services they can take over for some quick cash. Wildland firefighters are not really any different, if you think about it ,you only exist to protect vegetation, (at least on paper), trees won't get involved in letter writing campaigns when the pendulum swings again and suppression resources are cut back, the local communities will, when the Green (or yellow or white) "wildland" engine down the street that saved Aunt Edna last year gets shut down due to budget cuts. If it sat in the station while the ambulance came up from the city because "we don't do that" they won't even notice when its gone.

Well I've gone off on enough of a tangent / rant. Sorry Ab but over the past several months I have seen too many bash the IAFF, FWFSA, CPF and NFPA posts, all organizations working to enhance the lives of firefighters and as Popeye says, "I've had all I can stand, I can't stands no more".

Fedfire

Before submitting this e-mail, I read the article on the IAFF web-site as well as the e-mails posted to this site on the issue. As one who has diligently led the legislative effort on behalf of the nation's federal wildland firefighters for several years, I'd like to offer my honest assessment of the situation.

As many know, the issue of professional (paid) firefighters versus volunteer firefighters heated up this past year on the East Coast. The issue in fact got all the way to the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives and more recently the issue's "collateral damage" was an IAFF local union president squarely in the middle of the issue back east, being fired by the White House from his position on an 11-member panel developed to select recipients of the Congressional medal of Valor.

I've known both former IAFF president Al Whitehead, and current president Harold Schaitberger for nearly 9 years. While I can honestly and candidly say that the federal firefighters in California I represent are often at odds with the legislative efforts/strategies utilized by the IAFF for the achievement of federal firefighter issues, I do not believe for one minute that the IAFF would post the article as a shot, or criticism towards seasonal wildland firefighters.

It was just a couple of years ago that Harold Schaitberger gave me what I like to call "carte blanche" on working our federal wildland firefighter issues. We were successful during the 106th Congress in getting a bill introduced, heard, passed, and signed into law with respect to the OT pay cap as it relates to wildland firefighting.

This past 107th session, we had hoped to have a 2nd bill introduced to address the portal to portal issue and the inclusion of hazardous duty pay in retirement calculations. A number of factors prevented the bill from being introduced before the recent November 5th election's and congress' adjournment.

However, I have passed along to FWFSA president Preasmeyer a letter from Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA) re-emphasizing his commitment to these issues in the 108th congress. Further, a recent conversation I had with the congressman indicated that if congress goes the route of passing an "omnibus budget" bill when it convenes in January, rather than separately finishing the appropriations bills that have yet to be passed, it may in fact afford us the opportunity to add the portal to portal/Hazardous duty pay language to the omnibus appropriations bill.

What does this have to do with the 60 minutes piece? Not much. What it does have to do with is the fact that many people across this country, from politicians to yes, many municipal "city" firefighters have no clue what fighting a massive wildland fire entails. They have no concept of a fire creating its own weather. They've never experienced flames blowing across a 6 lane highway like a blow torch at 100mph.

Fortunately, for every "not-so-newsworthy" show like the 60 minutes piece, there are shows on Discovery and others that show what true heroes all of you are. No one in your ranks will ever, EVER, forget Storm King Mountain. It is my job that every politician knows about it, sees it, tastes it and lives it until we achieve the legislative goals due to each and every one of you.

It doesn't matter if you are a chief officer, smokejumper, first year seasonal firefighter etc., you do something that not too many people would be willing to do. Let CBS and 60 Minutes make their advertising dollars. Few, if any, will remember the show anyway.

What each and everyone of you need to know is that there is power in numbers. There is a greater voice in numbers. We have made tremendous strides in educating congress on who you are and what you do. The FWFSA, IAFF Local F-262 is the place to be and everyone needs to do their part to educate new potential members so that your voice and your issues will be heard even more loudly and more clearly.

I firmly believe the IAFF posted the article based upon it's recent (and historic) issue surrounding volunteer firefighters and was in no way posted to single out wildland firefighters. We all know that firefighters, both professional and volunteer, will continue to give this proud professional an occasional black-eye through arson.

Let's not get sidetracked from our goals and objectives by poorly researched and hyped up news shows. Let's find ways to increase the Association's membership and understand that it unfortunately costs money to get issues engrained in the thick brains of folks on Capitol Hill, and yes, the Forest Service and Dept. of Interior hierarchy.

Every kind of organization has a bad apple or two. Contrary to 60 minutes, it doesn't matter whether someone has had a background check or not. There is always the risk of someone, in any profession, doing something stupid...The rest of you stand proud for what you do and make a difference. I'll help with the politics, you folks just cut the lines and do the hard work. I am confident you will be rewarded.

With Great respect & Sincerity,

Casey Judd
5th District V.P.
California Professional Firefighters

This is why I love this site so much. It is good to see everyone debating the issues and looking for a solution.

With that, I think the IAFF needs to be educated on the difference between seasonal and permanent Firefighter and everyone needs to educate themselves on the issues of the IAFF and who they represent.

I am not seeing where the IAFF is backing 60 minutes. All they have done was run a report that had to do with arsonist. There are City, County, State, and Federal Firefighters who start fires that are members of the IAFF nation wide and I have never seen them raising an issue or asking questions about why the IAFF is running these news reports on the web or in their newsletter.

The IAFF is just a voice that the FWFSA uses to lobby along with CPF, they are not a bargaining unit for use. God forbid that something was to happen to you on the job that would have to do with a union issue, they will not be there to back you up. They have no authority to do so, that is why the Forest Service has their own AFL-CIO bargaining unit that represents you.

Yes it is all politics, I think they will always show support for the FWFSA, they have no reason not too. They need us just as much as we need them to help fight and lobby our issues and for us to help pass their concerns. We will never find a bigger or more established voice when it comes for firefighter issues them the IAFF.

I look forward to reading your response and debating this issue again. If I have made some mistakes on the mission of the FWFSA I would appreciate some clarification from the higher brass.

A member of the FWFSA

It takes about 11 minutes per pound to cook a turkey, but depending on air temp. and wind, it might take a little longer, ALWAYS use a thermometer to insure that internal temp is 160 degrees in the thickest part of the turkey.

You have to start with a thawed turkey, do not stuff. If you wish to add flavoring to the bird, rub the bird inside and out with the flavoring of choice the night before, wrap in a clean plastic bag (small white garbage bag-the unscented kind) and let set in the refer over night until ready to cook. I just use season salt, but you could use Cajun, or whatever.

Use about 2 pounds of charcoal to start per side of the kettle, when the coals are hot place the bird in the kettle and close the lid. Place a foil pan on the charcoal rack between the coals to catch the drippings. Open the dampers to allow the most heat to develop and check about every 30 minutes to ensure the coals are still burning hot, as the coals burn down, add more briquettes as needed to maintain Max temp. When you near the time when the bird should be done, start checking the internal temp and when it reaches 160 remove the bird from the barbecue.

I like to smoke my birds and do this by adding small pieces of Alder to the coals as soon as the bird is on the grill. I use green branches about the size of my finger to make the smoke. You can use fruit wood or any other good "smoking" wood that you might have available. If I see the smoke "dying" down I will add more wood to maintain a large volume of smoke until the bird is done.

Hope this helps and enjoy.

Gobble Guy

Sorry to see folks get worked up on an article about "Volunteer Fire Depts". Its sad and true folks in the Fire Service have been investigated for starting fires. The archives of "THEY SAID" no doubt have postings in the past. Politics of bashing volunteer fire departments replacing paid professional firefighters? I dont even want to go there. IAFF bashing Wildland Firefighters......... Thats one I would take. I agree with the FWFSA member. "The message was taken in the wrong context" by the reader. If IAFF really ment to slander the Wildland firefighter, I Know the President of IAFF would personally give me a notice. The 16th District Vice-President would call me or send a letter of the Presidents concerns. IAFF is a Professional organization. There are 30.000 members in California. I dont agree with every IAFF issue. I do agree to support the membership at large. IF the FWFSA membership at large reads the IAFF posting as slander to Wildland Firefighters. I will respond to IAFF.

Mike Preasmeyer, President - FWFSA
IAFF - Local F-262

one final comment, the management of wildland timber has been a mess for many years; it will remain so until the courts sort it out. control burns are making the press everytime it gets out of control, so the bosses best get a clue because the bottom line is fiduciary responsibility.

Northzone5

http://www.napawash.org/ <snip.pdf>

CI

CI, the pdf file was huge and my computer's message said it would take 24 minutes to download. I linked to the main site instead so people could have info on options in downloading. Ab.

I think we need to know from IAFF exactly where they stand in posting the 60 Minutes post in question. The 60 Minutes piece was flawed. A union that represents wildland firefighters including seasonals should know this. If they don't there's a problem. If they do there's a problem, since some of the erroneous information is slanted against the seasonal wildland firefighters they supposedly represent. Posting misinformation by those who should know better smacks of politics to me with seasonal wildland firefighters being relegated to the category of BAD guys. Stereotypes come from such simple beginnings. Professional status is difficult to achieve if the stereotype is that seasonal wildland firefighters are arsonists.

"A member of the FWFSA" I would argue that the devil is in the details. The details in this instance are important and reflect the professionalism (or not) of 60 Minutes, IAFF, and wildland firefighters whether seasonal or permanent.

NorCal Tom

AH

CDF Wife

I concur whole heartedly. This is a clear show of dis-respect to us and our
members.

DW

You could always look up the contact info of the IC or the DIC (after finding their name on the roster) on the Find a USFS Employee/DOI Employee utility under Federal on our Links page. The link to the team pages are right there with the lookup info. I personally don't think such info should be too readily available on the www. Ab.

I'd like a phone number and some names of IAFF people to call.
What a bunch of BOZOs playing politics. Or maybe they're just
plain stupid. If so, why are they representing us?

Wouldn't hurt to give 60 Minutes a bit of grief either.

NorCal Tom

Still lurking,
JK

www.ukiahdailyjournal.com

not so new CDF wife

Ab.

Alaska anyone?

The Fire Specialists will be extending their Case-Exam vacancy
announcement, (for those seeking a competitive appointment) for an extra
week.

If you want to see Alaska (and the rest of the West), do different things,
get the most training, and have the best opportunities for your future ?
the Fire Specialists have the job for you. (more on the jobs page)

Fire season is not over:
In SoCal:
Fire Scorches Hills
Origin of Yorba Linda Wildfire Incendiary in Nature

In AZ:
Wildfire Danger Coronado NF, AZ
Way to tell it Gail!
About campfires, she says, "if you're not brave enough to stick your hand in it, you shouldn't leave it."

Yea, ver'ly, let 'em cook by LASER LIGHT. <HAW><HAW> Ab.

Politics and politicians are the same all over the world and in my experience your list of effective communication ranking is spot on.

I have organized a few lobbying efforts on the state level and would add the following: When you write to your representatives it doesn't hurt to specifically lay out the need for the proposed change and ask them "WHERE THEY STAND" on the issue. This will require a response of some sort from them and so give you confirmation your message was received. It will also require that some thought be given the issue you have presented if no ready "stock" response will fit. And if you get a "thank you for contacting Senator Soandso" reply letter that does not answer your "where do you stand" question send another letter and include a copy of the bogus response.

When the legislation proposed finally get to the hearing stage...Write those same legislators and ask if they plan on supporting the legislation and provide at least three good reasons they should. Send copys of all responses to the folks in charge of lobbying for the proposed legislation...it is valuable information to them.

While I would not directly benefit from legislation like portal to portal I believe the firefighting community a whole would. I also believe that the USA needs a strong emergency response capability and WE are an integral part of that capability. I therefore support any such proposed legislation...and would be more than willing to contact MY REPRESENTATIVES in Washington to help generate their support. It is difficult for a single representative to garner all the support needed to propose and pass into law any legislation on their own. I know their job is made easier the more "allies" they have on board at the proposal stage as well as when it is time to vote...and the more likely such legislation passes quickly into law.

I admire and respect the FWFSA folks that have worked to get wildfire issues before the Nations' legislators. I suspect they can use all the help they can get and hope they will not hesitate to let the readers (and posters) to They Said know exactly what we can do to help them in their efforts.

Dana

On behalf of the entire fire community I want to let you know how much we appreciate, love and support you. We must get together and tell stories.

Tahoe Terrie

Ab,

Some folks were wondering how effective e-mails and
phone calls were to our Legislators. Having spent a
session as a secretary for some Reps at a state
capitol, I thought I might share my limited
experience, which is basically: it all depends on
which Legislator you're dealing with, but the local
guys and gals will be most responsive. (Note to
Mellie: in our office, both phone messages and e-mails
were printed out, and so arrived in similar format and
within a similar timeframe on the Representative's
desk.)

The local politicians didn't always act on major
issues of concern, but most of them at least kept
track of any issue that constituents brought to their
attention more than once. An amazing number of them
made time to personally read their messages, briefly
do some research, and then write out a thoughtful
response.

My buddy, who once worked for a Senator in D.C.,
confirmed that the picture out there is much
different. Getting a message to your national
representative, by e-mail OR phone, is almost
impossible. The vast majority of these messages are
heard only by the 'phone jockeys' and 'e-mail jockeys'
whose job it is to shoot off the appropriate form
letter responses. These are people who have about as
much political clout as the guy who empties the
Capitol Hill wastebaskets. In my friend's opinion,
your national Legislator will seldom hear about your
issue unless he/she gets feedback from your local
Legislators that a lot of folks back home have the
same concerns. (Unless you get lucky, and your issue
is one in which the Legislator happens to have a
personal interest. Hope we have a couple of those on
our side.)

Again, this is just from personal experience. Perhaps
others out in Theysaid Land have had better luck with
the 'Lege' in D.C.

**To those of you out there working for PTP and other
ff issues, whether you're successful or not - THANKS
FOR TRYING.**

Kibby

FWFSA Groundpounder thanks for the try! You're a person after my own heart! Get people organized and make a difference. Talk, Talk, Talking about things you wish would change only goes so far, after all.

As for my personal lunchtime exercise down Congress Lane, I have lately wanted an excuse to compare ways of contacting congress, so I had a great lunch hour trying it. Does anyone know if emails are less effective than phone calls? Maybe I will research that when I have time. We want the most streamlined, effective, least costly ways of making our voices heard.

FWFSA, this false start brings home the necessity of your website having CORRECT INFORMATION. If we want people to do what they can on a dime, we need to give them the GOODS. Webmaster and others with the current legislative information, I suggest you look through your website and see if there is any incorrect or out-of-date information there. Then Keep It Up to Date! Correct information is like timely confirmations of membership; both are earmarks of a professionally run operation.

FWFSA folks: Kudos to you for your good volunteer work on everyone's behalf. It's hard when people only pick on the stuff that's wrong. A thankless job sometimes to be the DOers. But you've got to make improvements if we're all to work together on this!

I called Pombo's office yesterday just in case PTP was not coat-tailing on the bill the House passed. They said they had someone looking into that for firefighters and would get back to me on it, but it might take a few days to a week. Well, now I know why they didn't know. (Who were the firefighters who wanted to know?)

Thanks All, false attempt or not, it was FUN!
Mellie

Thanks Mellie for the research. I am still not so comfortable with computer communication to congressionals, I guess. Mellie, I will try the computer drill for practice sake. Offhand, I wonder what the people on the phones do. Does the info called in really get to the Senator? Anyone sat behind one of those phone jockeys to see what happens?

FWFSA Groundpounder

Paper Jockey

I just spent my lunch hour and tried all 3 ways to reach my CA senators. Some ways are easier than others. Emailing and cutting and pasting the message is by far the easiest and doesn't cost anything.

If you call Washington (for CA senators) you will get a message about the phone lines being overloaded and you can call the senator's state office number that they give you. Very shortly after that in both my cases, a Washington phone staffer picked up the phone. I said I was from CA. One asked for zip code, the other did not. I told them how I'd like my senator to vote.

The two staffers I talked to in Washington seemed to know what I was talking about when I said I was for the Homeland Security Bill being passed ASAP, which meant that I was against the new Bill to Strip the special interest items that was to be voted on tomorrow.

The staffers in the local offices wanted my name and zip code but were more confused by my request. I had to clarify with them that I was for the Homeland Security Bill but against the bill that would delay the Homeland Security Bill, ie, the one that would strip provisions (riders, pork, special interest items). (One young woman didn't realize another bill to strip special interests had been introduced.)

EMAIL YOUR SENATORS.
Here's an easier and more complete site to get e-mail addys (and local and DC phone numbers). Click on your state. The first two in the list are your senators. Email addys and local phone numbers are there. Click on the e-mail for immediate gratification.

www.visi.com/juan/congress/

You're off and running. It's simple.
Be sure and include your name and address, your e-mail addy etc -everything with a *.
For the general topic of the message, I chose "Terrorism" option for one and "Homeland Security" for the other, depends on what they have. If they have a Subject option say "Immediately Pass the Homeland Security Bill"
For the message box, cut and paste the text provided between the ~~~~~~~'s in FWFSA Groundpounder's message below. It's easy.

Thanks FWFSA dude or dudette for the info and stimulus! That's what we need. Collective action!

Mellie

The Senate Democrats have said the GOP added 7 "special interest" pork barrel goodies to the Homeland Security Bill that has already passed the House of Representatives. The two provisions I heard about were liability protections 1) for pharmaceutical companies and 2) for other companies that make quality anti-terrorism technologies. No mention of the portal to portal rider for wildland firefighters.

Tomorrow the Senate will vote on an amendment to strip all (7) special interest provisions to the Homeland Security Bill, as Dana said they might. If they do that and then pass a new Senate version of the Homeland Security Bill, the House of Representatives will have to come back into session to OK the changes and resolve differences between their bill and the Senate bill. Since the House has already gone home for the holidays, the Homeland Security Act is likely not to be passed this year.

The vote to strip is due tomorrow. Please call your 2 Senators and leave a voice message with an aide.

If you are for the passage of the Homeland Security Act, tell them:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not delay passing the version of the Homeland Security Bill that has already been passed by the House of Representatives.

Vote NO on the bill to to strip the special interests from the HSB as passing that stripping bill will delay ratification.

Please pass IMMEDIATELY a Senate Homeland Security Bill that mirrors the House bill so it can be signed by the President into law.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can find your senators with phone numbers and e-mail addresses here. (If you send e-mail include your full name and address so they know that they represent you.)
www.senate.gov/index.htm

Please, Everyone, you don't need to be FWFSA to sway your Senator. Get your extended family and friends to call in or e-mail also. This is an easy way to affect a Congressional outcome.

FWFSA Groundpounder

What is this so called Governor using for brains, the primary mission for
CDF is to protect state water shed. I guess water is not an essential thing
to the state of California. Let's see CHP put out fires and save forests.
I guess the next nonessential will be air. Me thinks the Gov. is acting
like a King.
Retired L.A.V.E.

Interested

1. Taps: How much money does the average USFS IHC contribute to the region/forest/district? Lots more than is justified by the services received. Contract crew funding would not be as vulnerable to the pigs at the trough.
2. Double Dipping: Congress is currently funding fire at 100% MEL, which should cover all fixed costs. The practice of charging base 8s to P-codes when they have been covered by a congressional appropriation is questionable. What is the actual cost of an IHC when you have your fixed costs covered two different ways.

6

First, Pyrodactyl, I don't think John is chasing his father's ghost. Rather I think he tapped into the father-son fire metaphor to humanize the Storm King tragedy - to bring it to the gut level of "family" while linking it at another level to similar events at Mann Gulch. In the docu-drama he transformed the story from a purely "factual" one to a more multidimensional thinking/ feeling/ expressing human one. This time around, he's managed to tell the story as though from within the fire family, something that was missing from Fire on the Mountain, in my opinion.

Think about it. Understanding this tragedy through and through is so much more than "the firefighters and smokejumpers were here and the fire did this and they moved here". It is all so much more than "the ATs were held on the ground here because of politics there" or "this was the red flag weather story but the firefighters never got it". It is even more than about firefighters who should have but didn't follow the "10 and 18". Sure, this story is about the logistics of who did or didn't do what and when and why; it is about the "lessons learned" and what goes wrong in the "fog of war"; but those are just the initial steps to seeing the more complete, complex tragedy.

I think that in the process of walking us through his story of investigative discovery as John did, he revealed his own process of coming to more deeply understand the tragedy, as would a member of the wildland fire family. He also let the viewers understand it more as firefighters do. In my opinion, the depth of his understanding today far exceeds that demonstrated in his book (but hey, we all learn day by day, don't we?).

As in his book, John begins the docu-drama by telling us what happened first in his researching chronology and what that led to next and so on. But his story as told now goes beyond that book telling. This one reminds me of Faulkner's style and created in me the same kind of tension and circular revelation. I'd have to describe it as edgy. I kept waiting for the POINTS to be definitively made, the BLAME to be laid, the FINGER to be pointed as he did in the book. I kept waiting for the "sides" to be established so I could choose one. As it turns out, John didn't polarize, he just enlightened us to his own fluid and developing perspective, in the end, more of a wildland firefighter's perspective I think - a perspective that continued to evolve into a TRUER story of Storm King than his book revealed.

Tim commented, "you get the feeling that he began to understand that wildland fire suppression is more an art than a science". In Art, it's true you must have the techniques, the basics, the training. Beyond that, Art is involved with feeling. By letting his own story of discovery unfold - complete with feeling and links to family - John did a wonderful, healing thing: he let us (at least me) suspend judgment to some degree. He spoke with firefighters and let us see ourselves "feeling" the tragedy within our family. If the response of my at-home family was any indicator, I'd say he came as close as I have seen to sharing the heart of the wildland firefighter community with non-fire viewers. Not an easy thing to do.

Within the first 15 minutes of the History Channel piece, John mentioned groundpounder violation of the 10 and 18. Toward the end, he further described that crew leaders and firefighters were partially responsible for the tragedy. As in no other profession, wildland firefighters have to believe that each of us is responsible for our own safety and, thus, also for our own tragedy. If we don't live that belief, we let down our "guard" in a critical moment and safety is compromised as it was on Storm King in '94.

My suggestion: If you haven't already done it, read the book, view the video... See what you think.

Mellie

Foresters do hold positions on CDF Incident Commands Teams (ICT's) These positions are based upon your fireline qualifications. The four party agreement states that the USFS will recognize CDF's certs, qualifications and standards. Since we do not use the redcard system. A great many CDF personnel are proponents for the USFS taskbook and use them as a great documentation tool for certification.

Having said that do we put unqualified people on ICTs? Yes! Does the USFS? Yes. As with most large fire service organizations no matter how well you try to keep your standards there are just too many ways to circumvent the system. USFS teams are greatly respected in CDF. They have a better depth of personnel in key positions than CDF teams.

I qualify this statement by having worked on both USFS and CDF teams. Interestingly enough CDF teams are considered Type II by the USFS. However CDF considers them to be Type I. This due to a class in Marana that we do not attend. (the title skips my mind at this time) Out of State travel for CDF is like pulling teeth.

On a side note I think it will be interesting in the upcoming months for CDF due the Billions and Billions (Carl Sagan) of dollars that we are in debt. What the Governor is going to cut is the question and how much of a hit CDF is going to take. We have heard (again a rumor with just a rapid rate of spread) that we are not considered an essential State service like CHP so we are on the chopping block like everyone else. Should be interesting..

Hope this answered your question and welcome to you and your family to CDF. We have some bumps but overall its a great organization to be a part of.

Jake

Not so new CDF wife
(For someone who asked a while ago which part is "new": My husband, formerly USFS, got a full time position with CDF that started last summer; I was "New CDF" wife then and I'm "not so new" now. Emphasis on the CDF. CDF is still an unknown quantity for me.)

I put it on the Engine 5 photo page as "Season's Over". Let's hope it is in the Northern West. Thanks. Ab.

1. Designate the name "Helishot" to any crew attached to a helicopter whose primary mission is that of a handcrew and meets the criteria in the "Helishot Ops Guide" (ToBeDetermined)
2. Develop a separate Ops Guide for "helishot" crews that would include staffing levels, training and quals (need to add aviation training and quals for the extremely important cross train part of the module!)
3. Educate our Incident Managers on the staffing level differences currently out there on different Helicopter Modules.
4. Fight the fire in any capacity required (given qualifications) no matter whether you call yourselves Fly Crew, Flight Crew, Helishot, Helitack, Hotshot, Engine Module, RHC, IHC, Type 1, Type 2 IA, etc, etc, etc

My question exactly, the only difference between us and any other flight crews should be limited to personnel numbers, not capabilities. The final "name", though not really that important, would help in the current identity crisis.

"What is the difference between Helishot, Flightcrew, or Flycrew?" none that I know of, as far as I know, "helishot" is just a nickname. Flycrew is the only true ICS name out there. Flight crew is just easier to say.

My suggestions:

1. Review all flycrews based on the standards set by the Hotshot Operations Guide.
2. Decide what the crews will be called, Helishot, Flycrew, Flightcrew or ??
3. Incident RESL, Plans, Ops, AirOps and IC's, know we are there and use us for line assignments..
4. Hold Air Ops, Helibase Mgrs and Helicopter Superintendents accountable for not utilizing highly trained and motivated firefighters for line assignments

Thanks for your time,
Tom from AG

Long time lurker, first time writer. Who has alot of questions to ask and a few comments to add.

I'm from the Northeast (US), I'm a crew boss on a state Type 2 & 2IA crew. The crew make up is a mixture state workers from forestry and parks (who have in state wildfire duties and most of the leadership positions within the crew.) and crew members from other disciplines within the environmental division of the state government. We also rely on volunteer and paid city structural firefighters to supplement our crew. All of these positions are volunteer and no one is required to maintain crew status. We usually have about one hundred crew members too choice from, with usually only 50 available. The crew Always gets good evaluations and we have never had a major injury, and never sent anyone home or had a discipline problem. The mixture makes for a good crew!

We (operations team) are in the process of developing a evaluation form for individual crew members. We have been able to "get by" to this point, but we need better standards and control for the safety of all. My question for all is there a standard individual evaluation form out there (most of what I've seen is for single resources), would a simplified version be better especially in the litigious friendly east. Also the state people have to worry about non-fire supervisors at their home unit who would find a way to have access to these evaluations. Finally a small sampling of other state crews, shows that most just use a verbal evaluation through out and at the end of the assignment. Any help would be appreciated.

I sent along one of my pictures from the Chediski fire this summer, a column and bomber on division S, 6\28\02

Thanks Ab for the excellent site
NortheastCWB

Welcome and you're welcome. The Community makes it special. Thanks for the photo. It's on the Fire 14 photo page. Ab.

Ab.

Pines Burnout: Firing operations during the Pines fire, you can see the crew in the SW 1/4 of the picture to get an idea of the flame heights.

Birch: Intense burning in Pinyon/Juniper fuels, Taken on the Birch Fire, Inyo NF.

Thanks, some remarkable flame lengths there. I put them on the AG Flight Crew page. Ab.

I was noticing that your picture gallery does not have too many pictures of helicopters actually dumping on fires. I thought that maybe you would like to post this one because I think it is a pretty good picture. (I also attached it on this message.)

This picture was taken at a CDF fire in Redding, CA, (the Swasey Fire). Pretty fast, exciting little fire!!! I'm not all to sure which copter this is; could possibly be CDF out of Vina, CA.

Courtney

Thanks Courtney, bucket drops are welcome. It's up on the Helicopter 8 photo page. Ab.

Cannon: Cannon Fire, Walker, California, June 17-21, 2002 The darker smoke middle-right is the column from the crash of T130 - this was taken just 3 minutes after the crash.

Rogue River HS (Cannon2): Cannon Fire, Walker, CA Jun 17-21, 2002, Rogue River crew buggy with a view

Bill

Thanks Bill. I put them up on the Fire 14 and the Equipment 4 photo pages.

(These aren't Bills photos, but is that piece of equipment called Firetank [from the Biscuit Fire] one of Northtree's monsters? If not, then whose?) Ab.

Here's a good fire aviation survivor story from 1962 (saw the link posted on the AT website) for those needing a good historical read:

www.ingraham.ca/bob/crash.html

BirdDawgie

After a good drenching last week, Southern California has been under the influence of a high pressure system for the last 4 days. That high pressure system has brought warm weather and offshore (Santa Ana) winds.

The 6-10 forecast calls for no rain and a moderate Santa Ana wind is expected to develop for Fri. and Sat. and possibly again next week.

All of the immediate benefits of rain were negated by the drying and heating caused by the Santa Ana winds. LA County had a 2nd Alarm wildland fire today in Malibu....Some long term benefits such as a grass crop should become a positive factor in a few weeks if we don't get any freezes or continued warm, dry, and windy weather.

Southern California is trying to come out of it's worst recorded drought. It probably will, after several successive storms. The problem is that with the current fuel mortality (brush and timber), wildfire's are a 365 day a year problem now (except when it's raining). There are examples of this available from ALL of the SoCal forests... Many fires should have self extinguished under the current fire behavior models..
.. but this year, they burned actively in high RH's and under fog conditions.. ie - Williams Fire (ANF) and Harrison Fire (BDF).

Temp firefighters and fixed wing aircraft are going away on Saturday....

But the results of the drought and the Santa Ana's ARE still coming...

BEAN COUNTERS... how soon we forget.. Viejas..Gavilan..Bear.. Panorama.... All late season fires. Two of these fires are recent and were understaffed by Fed and State resources... The Bear (1970) and Panorama (1980) were late November fires.. Viejas in January, 2001 and Gavilan in February, 2002.

On the fed side I understand the 1039 issue for temps, but there is an avenue for relief of 1039 requirements... but with aircraft? It's just $$$ and a bet on the "come line"... sometimes you win.. sometimes you lose.. Sure glad I don't live in a house in the wildland areas.

Concerned

backburnfs

Last Saturday's bushfire knocked out electricity supplies to the Nepean water filtration plant.

Releasing the latest NSW Agriculture figures in State Parliament yesterday, Premier Bob Carr declared the drought was the worst since the great drought of 1895-1903. According to the figures for November, the area declared in drought rose from 92 per cent to 96 percent last month. Another 3 per cent of the State has been declared as "marginal", or on the verge of being drought declared unless there is immediate rain.

THE massive and unstinting efforts of the district's Rural Fire Service firefighters in recent weeks have been outstanding - but unfortunately it doesn't look like the prevailing weather is going to provide any rest for them in the near future.
"Our troops have done a remarkable job, over the last eight to 10 weeks without a break, Great Lakes Deputy Fire Controller Mark Blaydon said yesterday.

GROWING anger in parts of the State, particularly around Tenterfield, over the alleged failure of the National Parks and Wildlife Service's role in bushfire prevention and fire fighting has prompted a call for better communication between government agencies and farmers. (Sounds like the USA)

Investigations into the Mittagong bushfire are ongoing as police continue to build up a picture into the circumstances surrounding the weekend firestorm that engulfed the Southern Highlands.

What was the latin saying on the teeshirts (some black shirts, some red) "
Don't let the bastards get you down" circa 1977 ?

Thanks MKF

Flash, that's one kind of 180 Club. We could call it the 180 Haul Club. I put the "Haul Chart" on the FIRE Terms/Nicks page. Anyone else have stories from the season or terms to add? Ab.

Tahoe Terrie

Forwarding or cutting and pasting to someone is always an option if we haven't dumped their e-mail yet. Ab.

For all of those wondering what is happening down under, here is the latest media release for NSW from lead agency. Basically the expectation is this fire season has the potential to be one of the worst. In a recent training session with one of the country based NSW Fire Brigades captains, he said that it is the first time in their memory that they are actually extremely worried or even scared at what could happen. On total fire ban days they have pre-assemble strike teams waiting to be dispatched at the first report of fires (hit them hard and fast is the current thinking).

Here is the URL for those wanting to get this information direct or to browse the NSWRFS site

www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au/index.htm

Also here is a new feature that has just been released in the past couple of days which is a current map as per the NSWRFS information. I think that this is still a work in progress, as when you zoom in on the map the detail gets out of focus. You will need Adobe or some other software that can read PDF files.

www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au/Combined%20Fires%2010112002.pdf (548K)

Aussie CFU

That was a quick response. You all Be SAFE. Ab.

Here's the whitesheet on fires in NSW. www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au Heard from one of the Aussies that some Americans might be invited if nothing more than to witness the fire behavior. Hey OB or Aussie CFU or NAB, whoever's reading, if you have time, send us an update. Ab.

Ab and IA Dispatcher, I think this is the link you are looking for re minimum crew stds for mobilization.

It did have stds for Type 1 and 2 crews in the past, now it includes also Type 2 with IA capability and Type 3. It's in pdf but not too large to download. The info is a side by side tabulated comparison and includes fireline capability, crew size, leadership quals, experience, full-time OC or not, communications, sawyers, training, etc etc. (Matt you might find this helpful. Oh, the 180 club, lots of us belong to that, depending on when we got turned by firefighting.)

www.or.blm.gov/nwcc/Publications/logistics/crewstd.pdf

Thanks FWFSA firefighters who also happen to be managers and thanks to the many other "managers" who make a difference for all of us day to day.

Tahoe Terrie

Hey, thanks A LOT for all that WFU stuff- very helpful. (And thank you, Tom from AG. The only reason I know about the AG ship is that I had a very excellent squadie who just came off the AG.)

Just one follow up question- how often do FUMs go out on fires? I know it depends on the season, but I'm asking for a comparison- are they comparable to say, a busy Type 2 crew, in the number of OT hours they will pull in a season? I'm trying to figure out how busy different modules are compared to each other. Practically speaking, money and income is very important for students trying to pay their way through school, so I want to give people a ballpark idea of how busy their season is going to be relative to other fire fighters and modules.

Oh, and about the regulars- I know, I've been one of myself.

I hope that you guys here on TheySaid haven't interpreted my glib tone as condescending or insulting or anything like that, as it's definitely not intended to be. I have an immense respect for everyone on TheySaid, as I realize just how many seriously knowledgeable people hang out and post here, albeit anonymously. I myself have been lurking and posting under various auspices on TheySaid for about a year now and I really do appreciate the forum of TheySaid and the wealth of talent & knowledge that gathers here on a daily basis.

With all due respect,
-Matt Mireles

Ab, Call me dense, but I don't get it- the 180 club?

Respect accepted. As for the 180 Club, anyone out there want to reply?
HINT: The smokejumpers have the most members. HAW HAW.
Ab.

I applaud the FWFSA goals and its efforts. If you saw may last post (or any others) as a slam I wish you would re-read it. A previous post had stated that the PTP pay legislation was in a rider on the Homeland Security Act bill. Riders are a standard method of passing into law legislation which (in the eyes of legislators) might not have enough support on its own. Consequently a whole bunch of riders are "tacked on to" bills that have a large amount of support and are expected to pass into law fairly unopposed. It is normally a very good strategy. Sometimes however (as with the HSA) a President will threaten to veto any such legislation unless the riders are stripped off before it reaches the Oval office. This is what I understand the situation is with the HSA and the main reason it has languished in the legislature.

I understand how difficult it is to get such legislation enacted. And my intent was not to ridicule the FWFSA or "slam" any group that is trying to get wildland firefighters a better deal. I imagine the leaders of the FWFSA are aware of the situation already and are working to "hedge their bets" by attaching the PTP pay legislation to another bill (if in fact it is now attached as a rider to the HSA). To have gotten as far as they have with this issue is amazing considering all the time and effort involved...and it is not unusual for such an effort to fail initially for some reason beyond anticipation. Although I will not benefit personally form PTP pay I think the community of wildland firefighters as a whole will. I therefore support the FWFSA's efforts and hope other sill as well.

If you read my last post carefully you will notice I asked the question: "What can we do individually to improve its chances?" I had hoped that someone from the FWFSA would respond to update They Said readers about their progress with the PTP pay legislation and how individuals like you and me could help them in their efforts on our behalf.

If you think I meant it as a put down or insult you are mistaken.

Dana

Here's a website one of our Fire Use Module Captains gave me, we have 2 modules on forest. It has there Op's Guide and a few other informational things.

www.nps.gov/fire/fum/2002_FUM_OPERATIONS_GUIDE_final_0214.pdf (pdf file, 471K)

Driptorch

The difference between "helishot" and "helitack" is really a matter of terminology, not of actual duties. "Helitack" crews should be primarily concerned with the initial attack of fires, firefighters first, helicopter support secondary. In an emerging fire, the quick delivery of firefighters to the ground via helicopters is a proven concept, whether they land or rappel. On a project fire, the role can change to support of rotor wing operations, i.e.: Helispot construction and management, personnel and cargo movement, helibase management, etc.

What makes the AG crew unique is the SIZE of the crew and the helicopter. The hand crew is patterned and certified according to the IHC Type 1 Crew certification. The overhead structure, qualifications, training, experience, etc.

The air ops side is certified based on the Inter-Agency Helicopter Operations Guide (IHOG). By current configuration, we can field a 20 person Type 1 handcrew and provide 9 extra folks to do the helicopter support work. So, to answer your question, yes there are special overhead requirements, depending on the scope and mission.

Non R5 Helitack crews SHOULD be no different than R5 crews, they IA fires, support large fires, based on the size of the crew/aircraft, that is based on the needs of their own units/regions.

In the Field Operations Guide, there is no such thing as a "helishot", the closest term is "flycrew" which is under Type 1 Crews. The minimum number of personnel for an FS flycrew is set at 10. There is no true certification process for a flycrew other than the blending of the hotshot and helicopter requirements. I believe this classification needs to be rewritten to clarify existing configurations, i.e.: current large crews in R5 and other regions.

T-Shirts don't make the crew, reputations and professionalism do.

Tom from AG

The report is available on the web at WWW.FSX.org , click on to the NAFSR file. The retirees contributing to the report include people with national and international reputations as experts in forestry and wildland fire protection, and, most importantly, people who spent their entire careers on the front lines of protection and management, including some who are still able to be out on the line.

J. Marker, NAFSR member

What I'm doing is designing a UC Berkeley website to teach college students how to get summer fire jobs. I've been fighting fire for 2 seasons now and have used that money to pay for school and stay out of debt. I think other people can do the same and I like the idea of sharing the wealth. Right now, I'm writing about the different kind of crews/modules out there and I'm having trouble with the following-

Type 4 engine- What is it, who has 'em, and do any of the ICs out there ever request Type 4 strike teams for anything?

Type 5 engine- They even exist? (I know type 6's are common outside of CA, but I've never heard of a type 5).

Helishot vs Non-R5 Helitack- What makes a "helishot" crew different from plain old helitack? (I already know about that the AG ship has a 20 man, type 1 crew on it, but that's a special case). Is there some sort of special overhead requirement? # of people? Looks better on a T-shirt?

Fire Use Module- How many of them are there and where can I find more about them? Is this an actual dedicated module, or are they thrown together for a dispatch like some Non-R5 Type 2 crews?

Thanks.
Matt

After completing this one, your next assignment (should you choose to accept it) will be "TIPS ON AVOIDING THE 180 CLUB". Ab.

Look in the Fire Line Handbook for crew typing, quick and dirty from memory, Type 1; 80 hours of training each season, radio communications, permanently assigned supervision, primary job is fire.

Some of the definitions have changed and do not think edits have made the FLH. Now have Type II IA crews, Type II crews and Type III crews, all as a results of 30 Mile.

WP

Ab: "Ouch" for the get experience before you create a crew, comment. This is actually for an article, I guess I should have said that first, sorry. I do have 20+ years experience in fire, with the F.S., as engine capt and C.B. on hand crews.. (not HS Crews), but it's been a while and I don't work for them anymore.

Like IHC Supt said though, future contract HS Crews, whether good or bad, are a possibility. Espescially, if the future holds, money for fuels reduction, as pre, during and post season project work.

Theysaid is a great place and so full of instant expertise and knowledge, thank you, if I have anymore questions, I hope that I can bring them back here.

Bell

www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/2001_IHC_Ops_Gde.pdf (187 K pdf file)

We did an exhaustive study with private contractors, contract reps, hotshot crew supts. and the Northwest Coordination Center, with input from NIFC, on the feasibility of fielding private IHC's a few years ago.

By the time we were done the contractors basically figured that they could run several type 2 crews with the amount of overhead it takes to run 1 IHC.

Several other problems such as how to keep the crew together when not on a fire, providing project work, etc.

This subject has been through the mill a bunch of times and economically it does not seem to work.

Eventually I think it will happen though.

IHC Supt.

We added two new logos to the Logo 5 page. One of the PNW Redmond Hotshots and one of the Cherokee Hotshots out of Tennessee.

Nice additions.
Ab.

Why have the FWFSA key people, despite major offers of help (computer, marketing, membership, etc) from a bunch of us over the years, continued to ignore these three things?

• you need to give people a reason to join anything or they won't.
• you need to market your reasons to your audience or they won't.
• this is perceived as a Region 5 thing and until you get past that you won't get past that.

There's a lot of good "why" there, Blake, but you're long on why and short on look-at-it. Quite a few of us have offered to help and been rebuffed. Till that changes, and till the three items above change, don't expect a lot of answers to your whys.

kelly.

Some good points that you have raised. Most of the reps for the FWFSA are at the Captain and Chief level already, a couple of them are retired who still fight for the issues. I know for a fact that the FWFSA does a presentation at the Chief Officers meeting every year where they have signed a few chiefs.

Our Assistant Fire Chief for the Forest has signed up, a bunch of our Battalion Chiefs, and our retired Assistant Fire Chief have all joined the FWFSA.

They are coming around because I think this is the only voice they have to speak out against the burning issues they have since they can not belong to the union. You are right about allot of things, if more people join we will have one of the biggest voices in the IAFF that they have ever seen. But it takes just that, people to join and to get behind the organization to fight for the issues that a majority and the new generation of Firefighters want from the Forest Service.

It is time to join. In my opinion we missed out on a golden opportunity with the past election to vote Congressmen and Senators who want to support the FWFSA and the issues we have. We have a strong voice in Senator Pombo who has done allot for the FWFSA, we need allot more like him.

So I too will give a shout out to the Firefighting community, it is time to stop talking and complaining about pay, portal to portal, and job classification. Join the FWFSA so we can have a strong voice with the Senate and Congress so we can make some positive changes for EVERYONE who works for the Forest Service.

An-R5er

Most of the dues go to pay fixed expenses, ie, dues to IAFF and CPF who help immeasurably in supporting our issues. There's a FAQ page at the WFSA website that explains it.

Regarding representation, perhaps you would consider being a rep for your region? We need good people. Some in the past complained that we didn't get information back quickly enough to people who signed up and that they didn't have someone to talk with. We are doing much better in getting back to people, but we could have more reps from outside of R5. How to do that without hiring someone trustworthy to market us is the question. Many of us are very busy during fire season, but we do work hard on the issues during the winter. As always it's a matter of too much to do and too little time.

In trust of the vision of wildland firefighter equity,
NorCal Tom

The name of it is Living With Fire (Science Times Series). I
wasn't able to find it for sale at the nationalgeographic.com site.
Is there a phone number or order number?

DC

Thanks, Ab.

Subject: Science Times: Living with Fire on the National Geographic Channel

Tree

So I did, I just cut and pasted the message without regard to the subject line. Looks like it comes on again on Sunday, Nov 10, 1 p.m E.S.T. We'll have to check the listings to see what time in other areas. Ab.

It seems to me that inhalation injuries would just kill people first, and that if they hadn't died from the massive and sudden reduction of usable lung tissue, that they would then proceed to be cooked alive. It seems a lot like a hanging to me- you typically die first from the violent breaking of your neck, but even if you avoid that, you still have to contend with your blood and oxygen supply being cut off from your brain (and die anyway).

Just some thoughts.
-The Nomad

My, Nomad, this has to be one of the more cheerful posts we've found in our inbox of a morning.
Readers, if you did not see the Storm King History Channel production, let us clue you in to how this thread began. It was suggested that Eric Hipke (North Cascade Smokejumper) who was near the ridge top when the super heated air hit, was thrown over and his yell (exhale) allowed him not to inhale the hot gasses. He survived. Ab.

I just received a phone call from a person who would rather not be acknowledged. Seems that the "Wildland Firefighter Foundation" is in desperate need of some funding. I know that throughout the summer the foundation has contributed thousands of dollars to injured and fallen wildland firefighters and their families. Its very difficult for the foundation to raise enough funding from the sale of pins and t-shirts at the rate of $5.00 a piece.

To help the foundation out, the firefighters in our community have organized a "movie night" at the local theatre. All proceeds from this movie night will go to the foundation. The owner of the theatre has a son who was on one of the crews this past summer and wants to show his support to the foundation from the community. I hope to raise around a $1,000. I am also challenging the other businesses in the community to either match or at least donate to the foundation. I figure if the foundation donates $5,000 to each fallen or injured firefighter, they need a couple of hundred thousand to operate. That's allot of pins and t-shirts. I think the foundation would appreciate a little donation from each of us. Check their web page for more info. on where to send donations.

I also hear that the little boy who sent his birthday money to the foundation, ran a spook alley over halloween and donated the proceeds. Thank you buddy. Individuals who care make a difference.

rowdy

I sent in my donation. Ya'll please step up to the plate. We've had a lot of deaths this year. The money has gone out as fast as it has come in. It has been greatly appreciated by grieving families needing to make arrangements. You can contribute online with your credit card via the website. Simple as pie. And it's tax deductible. Ab.

If my info is correct, that is the Saguaro FUM having
a tea party.
Notice the lack of excitement, just another day in
fire use land.
Biker Joe

Alright one guess, but who's the photographer? Ab.

I started in the fire service at age 50 certified as FF1 structural at 63, red carded at 64 and still maintain both.

No whining about blood pressure, height, or wt. Proper diet and exercise will take care of your problems with the test. Don't loaf all winter and you won't have a problem.

old man of the dept.

Thanks,
Backburnfs.

Reference to it is in the Sept '01 archives. Check out www.keelaghan.com/keelo7.html for a free download MP3 (3508K) of James Keelaghan's original version of Cold Missouri Water. He's a Canadian folksinger. The group Cry Cry Cry also did the piece. If you do an internet search under "Cold Missouri Water" or "Cry Cry Cry" you can find the lyrics posted. It's a haunting piece. Ab.

I haven't been on here since late May. Busy year for my crew and I. Bounced around in N.M, AZ., and Colorado in May and June. Spent the rest of the year jumping from fire to fire in Or., Wa., Id., Nv., and Colorado again in Sept. Just finished burning our last unit for the year and now its time to relax. I have a few guys who are looking in to taking some wildland fire and medical related classes at a community college in or near the Eastern Wa. area. Does anyone have any suggestions or input as to any colleges in the Eastern part of Washington?

Thanks,
R6FF

Check out the 2 and 4 year fire schools list (accessible also under "training and education" on the links page). HMMM, Looks like none yet in Eastern Washington. If anyone has additions for Eastern WA or anywhere else, please let us know. Ab.

Question 1.) A 5'6" person with an 18-20" step and a 6'tall person with a 24-26" step... is it fair that the short person has to take at least 1/3 more total steps to complete the pack test in the same time? How about 2 or 3 times as many steps as a person with a bigger step? Why?

Question 2.) If blood pressure is directly related to V02 max, then is it fair that folks with high blood pressure(disqualifier for taking the pack test)can take medication/s that directly affects their blood pressure, which affects V02 max, assisting them in taking and possibly passing the pack test? Does this really mean that they're fireline fit? Would they be considered fit without taking that/those little pill/s every day? Why? Wasn't there something about folks eh-hem, "passing" the old step test by taking medication that affected their pulse rates?

Question 3.) Whatever happened to all of the questionaires that folks filled out after their pack tests for feedback? Feedback to who? Granted, there is some positive feedback and impacts.... especially with the young un's and new hires... but what about negative impacts... THERE ARE NEGATIVE IMPACTS, where's the studies and how can that information be accessed? If they can't be accessed, why?

Just wonderin',
A_G

Buck, welcome to our wildlandfire.com community and thanks: Mighty fine photos and interesting tidbits of history of a huge Moose "run".

Readers, there are other photos on that page that must have been taken by others on the fire. If anyone knows who they might be, let us know. We'd like to give credit and acknowledge their work.

As most of you know, we are always getting requests for use of photos. We've seen them crop up in training powerpoints, presentations at Division Chiefs mtgs, etc. Kids write in asking to use photos in websites they're constructing for their careers research or for their computer classes. Last summer we got a request for use of one of the Moose Fire photos (plus a number of others) for a presentation to members of government that "hold the purse strings for fire". It makes us feel good to have the photos available for all those non-commercial purposes. Plus, it's fun to browse them for pleasure and a sense of history from time to time. It's also great to have firefighters or their family members discover and write in regarding some fire or person significant to them.

Thanks contributors,
Ab.

RC

I noticed more emphasis on self-reliance, and less finger pointing at the "boogie-man" back at the office. I think that Mr. McLean may be starting to grasp something of the fact that wildland fire suppression is more of an art than a science. I heard several people state that the ultimate responsibility for firefighter safety rests with the firefighter. Firefighters accepting that responsibility is a major step for increasing firefighter safety.

There were some mistakes made in the show. Does anyone that was in Colorado in 1994 believe that there were air tankers just sitting around without a mission in early July? (Let me know and I have some real estate transactions they might be interested in.) And as Pyrodactyl points out, the name of the fire is not an indication of anything except that the 1st R.P. screwed up the location.

I am trying to remember a fire where I spent a significant amount of time as a supervisor where I did not make a mistake. I can pick apart mistakes made by myself, the people on the line at South Canyon, the people who were in dispatch, the FMOs, McLean when he wrote his book, and the History Channel's production. (Did you see the part where there is snow on the ground?) If we are going to discuss mistakes that result in an accident/injury/fatality, lets make sure that our motives are to prevent a recurrence of the incident.

Tim

"AussieCFU" interprets the original ("Mark"'s) post to be "....looking for a way to stop deaths of wildland FF's caught in Firestorm situations and having deploying a fire shelter, and dying because they breathed superheated air" . I could well be wrong, but I suspect that deaths of wildland FFs who have deployed a fire shelter and then breathed superheated gasses (their deaths being due to the breathing of the superheated gasses) are a microscopic fraction of total wildland firefighter deaths.

"Aussie CFU" further states that, in the event a firefighter is in his/her shelter and caught in a firestorm << "There are plenty of self-contained breathing apparatus that will provide up to ten minutes of breathing time." >> Then further alludes to "Oxygen replacement systems". I submit that, in the situation described, the last thing you want to have around is Oxygen!!! (at least, any enhancement of the normal proportion of oxygen in air). The use of pure oxygen WOULD, in fact, reduce the weight and bulkiness of the proposed apparatus, and/or extend the breathing time. But the downfalls of using pure oxygen are obvious (remember the Apollo mission?). So, barring the equipment that uses pure or enhanced oxygen, I submit that there are NOT "plenty of SCBA that will provide up to ten minutes of breathing time" and be practical for wildland firefighting use. "Aussie CFU" further proposes that there would be sufficient time to deploy the apparatus. This is not at all so sure, especially when a good part of the time he supposes is available would be used to prepare your deployment area, and then deploy and enter the shelter. We in CDF, and I suspect other major wildland firefighting agencies, are about to begin using a significantly heavier and more bulky fireshelter (and, presumably, a better one), and we really have very little extra margin for either weight or volume. I again state that in my non-expert opinion (my bona-fides are that, as a municipal firefighter, Truck Company, for five of my 30 CDF years, I am reasonably well-acquainted with the principles of Breathing Apparatus), there is no current technology that is both more practical and more effective than the bandana.

CDF Mike from AG

Now to escape that type of situation, which is one where for whatever reason you get trapped, all you need is a small amount of breathable air to get you through that period of time as the fire front passes over you, while you are in your shelter and hopefully the shelter holds up to the fire intensity.

It is my understanding that can this time can last as short as 60 seconds in the case of a grass fire to 10 minutes in that case of a full on forest fire. Now remember that the key to this is the fact that you are working normally i.e. no assistance in the form of breathing apparatus, you suddenly get caught out and you have to deploy your fire shelter. In the ideal world you would have some time (1 – 3 (????) minutes) of knowledge that the proverbial is going to hit the fan. You find nearest area that is suitable to deploy your shelter and wait for the firestorm to pass over. There are plenty of self-contained breathing apparatus that will provide up to ten minutes of breathing time.

Normally escape apparatus is used to get out of area, that has an oxygen replacement system in case of fire. Normally they are used in computer rooms which in the event of a fire, are flooded with a gas, used to be halon (contained too much CFC and was banned under the 19XX Montreal protocol), but I don’t know what they now call it, the gas (also used in areas that a heavier that oxygen can build up i.e. water tanks, natural gas pipe underground installations etc.) is used in other circumstances.

Look you don’t need to carry 12 hours worth of air in a tank. All you need is that small amount to breath as the fire passes over you. There was a program called “Beyond 2000” that was air in Australia and they showed a very small breathing device that could be used underwater for about 5 minutes. It basically looked like two of those small gas cartridges that can power one of those whipped cream dispensers, cork extractors, etc. that went into a mouth piece.

Regards
Aussie CFU

Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill
www.rgj.com

Reps call for inquiry into Biscuit Wildfire
www.theworldlink.com

Starts over the last week in Oregon (near Ashland and I-5) and California (near Santa Cruz)
OR: www.mailtribune.com
CA: abclocal.go.com/kgo/news

Mann Gulch Fire: A Race that Couldn't Be Won pdf file on Mann Gulch fire behavior, etc by Richard Rothermel, 1993

Be Safe.

Your posting regarding batteries addresses a larger issue. It appears that you're writing from Region Five (Calif.) or one with similar supply policies, since we engine contractors in Region Four (Great Basin) work under completely different supply arrangements. Our company operates engines under R-4 EERAs. Additionally, we work under R-4 Exclusive Use contracts with the BLM, which have similar provisions. On project fires, we can:
1) Trade dirty, serviceable or incident-damaged Nomex for clean on a one-for-one basis. (A 20-year-old rag doesn't work.)
2) Trade spent radio batteries for fresh ones a one-for-one basis. (Sorry, Uncle Sugar won't supply batteries for your Walkman.)
3) Replace fire-damaged hose, appliances, pulaskis and shovels on a one-for-one basis. (Sorry, rotted, double-jacket cotton with brass fittings and a broken garden shovel doesn't work either.)

In the six years we have operated, this contract arrangement has been honored at both large fire camps and at the district level.

Over the years, I've discussed this issue at length with R-4 contract officers in Ogden, Utah. There was a very specific discussion after a new R-5 overhead team, managing an extended R-4 fire, arbitrarily told R-4 engine contractors that they no longer had access to the fire supply cache (this was four weeks into the event for many, including our company). They maintained this position even after being shown the supply provisions of our R-4 EERAs. Needless to say, it wasn't too many minutes before phone lines to Ogden were smoking.

R-4 contract officers say their Engine EERAs contains this provision because Supply is viewed as a "Safety Issue." We R-4 engine contractors are required to show up for a deployment completely outfitted, with sufficient supplies to operate for 24 Hours. After that, the Feds are to step in with incident-related supply.

This policy makes sense. For instance, if we deploy to a remote fire camp for weeks at a time, it's extremely difficult to finish a twelve hour shift, drive to the Last Chance Laundromat that's 70 miles away, wait for the laundry and drive back to camp in time to catch a couple of hours sleep before 0600 briefing. Additionally, it's pretty tough to haul a month's supply of batteries and five changes of Nomex on an engine, with everything else that must be carried. When Uncle Sam buys AA batteries by the million, he pays a dozen or so pennies per unit. This same battery at the Last Chance Gas and Drive-In Liquor Store (the one by the Last Chance Laundromat, and the only store in town open at 23:00) costs over a buck.

On an R-4 fire a few years back, we had more than 2,000 feet of hose and various appliances burned over. This equipment was promptly replaced on a piece for piece basis. Had it not been, our engine would have been out of service with no way to restock. The Division Sup. filled out a General Memo to supply. No muss, no fuss, back in service. It was fair and quick. I felt like part of a team, not a lowlife outcast.

Are there engine contractors who try to game the system and stock at Uncle Sugar's expense, because they were too cheap to properly supply their equipment and personnel? Or just outright thieves? Sure.

Proper oversight can weed out these Jokers. A prosecution or two and ban from contracting wouldn't hurt either.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If engine contractors are truly part of the national fire strategy, a uniform framework of regulations that benefit both parties is in order. It appears the National Engine Contract out of NIFC tries to address some of these issues. But that still leaves Regional EERAs, which our experience shows, can have different quirks; it gets really interesting when Regional boundaries blur as equipment and overhead teams are moved around the country. Our engines were deployed in four different regions this summer. Needless to say, contract questions frequently arose. This put both parties in a difficult position.

That's my C.O.S. view from a well-earned Lazy-Boy rapid-deployment recliner.

Snake River Sparky

Well, here is food for thought. To the wildland firefighter is it obvious that using the typical SCBA is not even remotely feasible do to our typical situation. But lets look at it this way, how much time out of a shift could you really use some sort of breathing apparatus? What if there was one that had a 10 minute supply in something the size of a 20oz soda bottle or a little bigger and weighed a pound or two that could be used when and if you need it? I know the capacity of structural SCBAs in the last few years has gone up to a 45 -60 minute bottle in nearly half the size of the old standard steel or fiberglass bottles.

Anybody out there know if this is even possible?

Pulaski

How about some feedback from some of those who are new "permanent" fire hires? How do you feel about the process; where do you see your careers going?

Old Fire Guy