"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
November, 2002
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 11/30 |
Good evening All,
I just wanted to let everyone know that the AirTanker Pilots are
getting organized to pursue acquiring federal Public Safety Officers
Benefits (PSOB). They have had success in obtaining such benefits in
California in Sept when AB1748 was signed into law. Some of us sent
e-mails and letters to our CA legislators in support of that effort. There
may be ways we can lobby our fed reps on their behalf for this legislation
as well.
To learn about the history of this effort and what's involved, please
check AERIAL FIRE
FIGHTERS, Battle for Federal Benefits. Some nice AT photos there also.
Mellie |
| 11/30 |
Hello,
Could you send me info on 2002 wildand fire fatalities and background
info.
Want to use info in lecturing during Safety Refresher trainings for the
Great Plains Region.
Thank you,
David
Crep/RXBII
SRA/SD |
| 11/30 |
Sean,
The level of EMS on wildland fires depends on the complexity of the fire.
In most wildland fire agencies, the engines and crews have at a minimum
two “First Responder” or “EMT” trained personnel on board. This
allows for immediate care. As fires become more complex and a fire camp is
in place, a medical unit is established with either BLS to ALS providers
depending the fires complexity. From this point you can have BLS/ALS units
staged at various points of the fire. Also, line EMT’s and Line
Paramedics can be sent out to cover divisions or work with crews who do
not have any medically trained personnel. This occurs when crew are too
far away (remote areas) from medical facilities.
Firejim |
| 11/30 |
Hi,
I'm making a HO scale model of the CNW RailRoad in Northern Wisconsin. I
would like to make a small burn't out forest on my layout. Do you know
where I can find pictures of the forest area about 2 weeks after the fire.
All the pictures I see are during the fire. If you have any Websites or
know of any people who have pictures they would like to share, please let
me know.
Thank You.
Don, Milwaukee,WI |
| 11/30 |
Ab,
I read your post about MELmadness. I would like to let you and everyone
know that there
will be a new way the ASAP program will be taking aps for the up coming
fires season.
They are having a meeting in Dec. about the new process and the results
from that
meeting will be posted to all of the people in personnel. I have heard we
will be notified by
the 13th of Dec.
R5-Recruiter
Thanks for keeping us posted. Ab. |
| 11/30 |
Anybody know when ASAP Rnd. 10 Jobs are supposed to fly? ASAP tells you
when they
have to be in, but not when the job will go up on the site.
-blackliner |
| 11/29 |
Firescribe, here's a brief rundown from a CDF friend in the
"know":
Bean and Union Fires (BTU, near Oroville, CDF managed)
100% contained at 250 acres on 11/28; transition back to BTU anticipated
tomorrow
still has 350+ personnel, many CDC crews doing suppression rehab
Wengler Fire (SHU, Shasta Co near Montgomery Creek, CDF managed)
100% contained at 50 acres; 34 personnel; turning back to Roseberg Lumber
Co today
Buckhorn Fire (SHU, Shasta Co near Oak Run CDF managed)
20 acres; turned over to Roseberg Lumber Co 11/28
Old Fire (HUU at Freshwater Lagoon, Humboldt Co, CDF managed)
contained at 10 acres
Pine Fire (MEU, near Hopland/Cloverdale, CDF managed)
100% contained at 1200 acres; 200+ personnel doing mopup and patrol; demob
expected today
River Fire (RRU, Riverside Co, Norco, CDF managed)
20% contained at 10 acres, but oh what a smoky 10 organic compost pile,
30' deep, smoldering & burning; crews working on the inside are
wearing SCBA, FF given breaks often in cleaner air environment.
Then there are the Plum Fire on the El D that will be turned
back to the forest tonight, the Rock Creek 2 Fire that's expecting
a major demob tomorrow and the Sourgrass Cplx of fires that are
expecting a cold front tonight that may have winds and create a
containment problem... Read about those on the Sit Report.
What a late flurry of fires in CA.
AL |
| 11/29 |
From Firescribe:
The Friday National Fire Sit Report is up this morning. Check the Links
page, second item under News and Reports. You'll have to go with the pdf
version.
I'm wondering about all the other smaller fires that kept people away from
turkey with their families...
On another note, some news from our Fire
News page:
Woman
accused of setting forest fire expected to change plea to guilty
Terry Barton accused of starting the Hayman Fire that burned 137,760 acres
and was the largest in Colorado history is expected to make a plea
bargain. |
| 11/29 |
I just updated the Jobs,
wildland firefighter Series
462 and 455
pages.
Check out the options among the Contractors. You can even make extra
money working on weekends if you live in some parts of SoCal. On the Fed
side, the NPS is looking for some Fire Use Specialists. As soon as anyone
gets a copy of the hiring schedule (MELmadness Schedule), please send it
in and we'll post it so you all can know when to have your apps in and
when they will go to forests, etc.
For those of you doing some holiday shopping online or simply
capitalizing on the bargains, please consider looking at Amazon. If you
enter through our Amazon portal on the Book or Book Reviews Pages and
purchase anything (books, music, electronics, toys and games, home and
garden, gift certificates, office products, etc.) wildlandfire.com will
get a commission. (Note: If you bookmark Amazon and enter that way, we get
no commission.)
Again, I'd like to remind you that those who advertise with us via
banners and classified ads help pay the bills at wildlandfire.com and
support this online community in very tangible ways. The Abs hope you'll
browse their sites when looking for that special and necessary wildland
firefighter gift. A big hug to one supporter we really appreciate from
this Ab!
Hope you all had a Thanksgiving Day as nice as ours and that you
continue to bring yourselves home to your loved ones at the end of the
day.
Those of you on the Plum Fire: Didja all inhale that smoked turkey?
<HAW>
Ab. |
| 11/28 |
We're having smoked turkey for dinner on the Plum Fire (ENF).
Catering
ordered up 20 - we didn't smoke em ourselves. At least 1500 acres have
burned,
have 325+ firefighters on the fire now, had almost 500 yesterday. 80%
containment. Glad the winds abated.
JWW
Be Safe and happy eating. Ab. |
| 11/28 |
Good Morning All and Happy Thanksgiving! Don't eat too much.
Some new photos up on Fire 14
and Handcrews 6 photo pages. Thanks
contributors.
JB sent in photos of the Cannon Fire. Sunrise was from the IC camp.
B. M. sent in an old '75 photo of a brushfire in Riverside County.
Wol sent in photos of the Olinda Hotshots - Dandenong Ranges National
Park, Victoria Australia.
Please read the descriptions for more information.
Ab. |
| 11/27 |
The FF-II (J. Nettles) who was exposed to hot gases is doing well and is
expected to recover completely. He was injured on the River Fire (near
Corona) this morning. He was initially transported to Corona Regional
Medical Center for evaluation and then transferred to Arrowhead Regional
Burn Unit. He was diagnosed with minor burns to the back of his throat. He
had no airway or respiratory tract damage. He is expected to remain in the
hospital for another 2-3 days.
Happy Turkey Day... Things could slow down now...
AL |
| 11/27 |
We got one east of Freshwater Lagoon, north of Arcata, just about right
on the ocean, fer gosh sakes!!!! It's called the Old Fire. Heard there was
torching and spotting but it was small (10 acres) according to the noon
news. Redwood National Park is within spitting distance. CDF sent some
crews.
Can't believe how hot it was today. Temp must have been a record on
Humboldt Bay, 84 degrees in the shade on our deck.
Heard there was also an escape from a slash burn (Roseberg's operation)
over near Montgomery Creek in Shasta Co. That one's called the Wengler
Fire - maybe 50 acres. The foehn winds are having their way. These were
predicted. Why burn?
There probably will be more info on the evening news.
Be Safe,
Mellie |
| 11/27 |
The Bean Fire near Oroville (BTU) is 350+ acres, wind driven.
It's a long and skinny thing. If the wind shifts to S/SE, there will be
a long fire front. Could threaten quite a few homes in the community
of Berry Creek. There's another fire as well. Keepin' our fingers
crossed. Thank gawd for the heavies.
Dave |
| 11/27 |
Ab,
We (my En. Co.) were at an EMS seminar and all got to
talking when the question was brought up who actually
does EMS for wildland firefighting crews? If it is an
actual entity for wildland crews, how does it work?
Sean |
| 11/27 |
We're dry here in norcal, Cloverdale/Hopland area. Had a toad strangler
of a rain a few weeks ago and after a few days of sun and wind, we're back
in the dried out dangerzone.
Last night an escaped Rx burn was discovered NE of Cloverdale. There
are 2 fires less than a mile apart that are making some pretty impressive
runs and spotting pretty good. Rough terrain -I heard they've gobbled up
450 acres. 200+ structures are being protected by local resources and CDF.
Got some dozers. Temps in the 70's and RH in the low 20's. What a scene
for the day before Thanksgiving.
LAVE, did they bring you out of retirement?
Todd |
| 11/27 |
CDF-WG
The smoke inhalation injuries occurred on the River Fire, the one
with the piles of burning brush, organic matter, etc. (see post below).
A friend said there were 3 FF injured from smoke inhalation and
taken to the hospital. Two were released and one remained. An
investigation is underway.
AL |
| 11/27 |
Ab,
An update on the CA fires from a friend:
North Zone:
The Plum Fire on the Eldorado NF is being held at 1000 acres by about 450
firefighters. Carlson's team is in charge, but there are lots of CDF crews
participating. Since winds moderated, ROS moderated. Projected demob is
Thanksgiving, with the wind's cooperation, so keep those turkey dinners
warm.
A new fire (11/26), the Bean Fire is located 20 mi E of Oroville, Butte
Unit CDF in heavy brush and timber. It was 300 acres and 25% contained.
250+ mostly CDF personnel are staffing that fire. Yesterday's fire
behavior included short uphill runs and torching and spotting 300-400 feet
in front of the fire. Strong nighttime NE winds were expected overnight,
so we'll see what's up today. They also expect demob on Thanksgiving.
South Zone:
The River Fire, 10 acres, Riverside Ranger Unit CDF (River Rd at
Archibald, Norco). Fuels are 10 Acres of organic recycling, compost, tree
trimmings, and wood chips from small trees to garden sized chips. Rows are
75 feet wide, 200 feet long and piled 30 feet deep. The fire is deep
seated and has 4-5 foot flame lengths. Potential high winds could cause
spotting. Smoke is a problem. Appx 90 firefighters are on that fire.
The Old Hamner Fire, 5 acres, Riverside Ranger Unit CDF (Old Hamner at
Santa Ana River, Norco). Yesterday the fire was actively running thru
bamboo, with long range spotting and moved into a neighborhood along Pali
Drive. Santa Ana winds made containment difficult but aggressive IA by 133
personnel kept damage to a minimum (2 roofs).
Rock Creek 2 Fire, Sierra National Forest (10 Miles East of North
Fork), Madera Co was 130 acres last night, 60% contained, 2-4' flame
lengths sometimes flaring to 4-6' in slash. 110 personnel made significant
progress in line construction after winds died down.
Sourgrass Complex (Sourgrass, Mill Creek and Winton Fires),
Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit CDF (10 mi E of Arnold on Hwy 4) was 550 acres 40%
contained last night. There was spotting from slash piles. High winds, low
fuel moisture and heavy slash. Wind conditions made containment attempts
by the 650+ FF difficult. Blowing embers and danger of falling trees has
required unstaffing the Sourgrass Fire during nights for FF safety.
Yesterday winds moderated to a degree, allowing progress to be made.
Projected demob is Thanksgiving.
Be Safe All.
Happy Thanksgiving, whether on the fireline, in camp or at home.
Count your blessings.
AL |
| 11/27 |
Rumor of a FF on RRU inhaling superheated air. When anyone
gets details, please let us know. People, please be careful. Experienced
guys, watch out for the youngsters.
CDF-WG |
| 11/27 |
As we "civilians" prepare to celebrate Thanksgiving, just want
to let
all of you know that we truly are thankful for the fine work performed
by all Wildland Firefighters this year. May God bless you and your
families! Stay well!
Padre |
| 11/27 |
Just an off season question for those guys who have been around the
block.
For those of you who have completed any elite military training,
(Ranger school, Navy SEAL BUDS, Special forces Q-course, or Air Force
para-rescue/ combat control school) and have completed at least one good
hard long R-5 Hot shot or Alaska jumper season (you should know what a
real fire season is all about, over 1000 hours overtime). What are the
similarities and differences besides the obvious mission statements. Which
is more taxing on the body? the mind? How about in the long term? Over a
career? There probably are not many people who have had the opportunity to
take part in all of the above, both of them being a young mans business. I
would love to get some feedback from those who have made this sacrifice.
--Tom |
| 11/26 |
Northzone5-
You’re correct; when possible we all need to speak to the facts. The
trouble is we also get emotional when we see our avocation misrepresented.
I read the Bureau of State Audits reports on employee misconduct and
couldn’t find reference to portal-to-portal overtime in either the OES
employee’s bogus non-emergency overtime claims, approved by his
supervisor, or the CDF manager’s misuse of state aircraft to obtain his
commercial multi-engine rating and King Air certification. If you can help
me find the section let me know.
SoCalCapt, NorCalTom, FWFSA member, and others-
I believe Fedfire is right on the mark. First consider the source, 60
Minutes and Dan Rather. Muck raking at its best for years. Isn’t this
the same program that we have people wanting to call when they feel they’ve
been wronged? Sensational press is a two edged sword, it cuts both ways.
I don’t feel the IAFF acted irresponsibly by posting the article. The
website personnel, who probably not firefighters, saw the contents of the
nationally broadcast subject matter as being of interest to their members.
Admittedly, the IAFF represents paid firefighters and champions their
case. In contrast, I saw no reference to the 60 Minutes program listed on
the National Volunteer Fire Council web site. (www.nvfc.org)
You complain about not having good, fair representation. You get what
you pay for. If the numbers listed on this page are correct, the number of
FWFSA members, nationally, is 0.7% of the total dues-paying members of the
IAFF in California. CDF Firefighters, as an independent association, chose
to join the IAFF in order to stay out of turf wars and to use the impact
of becoming one of the five largest Locals in the nation. It works. If you
don’t join then those nasty red-truckers, hydrant hoppers, and medics
will have to carry you. Your glass can be half empty on the sidelines and
it will always be half empty. Join up, speak your piece, and maybe your
glass will start looking like it may get more than half full in the
future.
Other than the misidentification of the federal employees, both
considered part of the “ready reserves” to back up the line
firefighters, I don’t see anyone jumping up to say that the rest of the
information was bad. It may not be totally accurate but the concept is
true. No one complained that the IAFF didn’t take out the mention of
paid fire investigator, arsonist, murderer John Orr. He’s one of us good
guys, right?
Mike Preasmeyer and Casey Judd-
You’re doing a good job, keep at it, eventually the potential members
will realize that there is strength in numbers, life can be better, and
you can still be an individual.
Happy Thanksgiving to all, and to the Abs and Abbys. For those on the
fire line or in a war zone, my thoughts are with you.
JW
|
| 11/26 |
Here is a photo from the Dillon prescribed fire in Badlands National
Park. It's actually 3 photos
"stitched" together.
GW
Nice one. I put it on Fire 14.
Ab. |
| 11/25 |
Well, fire season's not over in Northern Cali.
We have the 1000 acre Plum Fire on the Eldorado NF, burning with moderate
to high rates of spread in heavy timber and we have the 250+ acre Granite
Fire burning near Graniteville burning in timber and pushed by high winds.
That barbeque turkey recipe may come in handy.
Be safe ALL,
AL |
| 11/25 |
I will keep this short,
Casey Judd,
It is an honor having you by our side helping us with our issues that we
have. You are the reason I am a large supporter of the CPF and IAFF. It
would be nice to have you drop us a line every once in awhile keeping us
up to date with the issues.
Mike Preasmeyer,
Thank you also for the comments and trying to keep everything in
perspective for us all. Good job to you and everyone in the organization.
An-R5er |
| 11/25 |
AH-
I don't have too much to give you but one thing to keep in mind:
controlled burns are sometimes used to kill noxious weeds or other species
of plant life that whoever manages the land does not want there. control
burns aren't used necessarily to prevent future wildfires.
also, not all areas can be used for logging and if they did have an area
that they logged as opposed to burned, it can still catch fire. (that
would also make one hell of a pop-up operation with all of the burned out
stumps from the logged trees.)
one fire comes to mind, the biscuit fire, where the crew i was on was
preparing a road to do a burn and there, unfortunately, down the road a
ways, the fire was on both sides of the road. but, there was a clear cut
that had been logged earlier - way before the fire started- and so a few
crews were punching line up the clear cut. they hauled ass because they
didnt have to wait on the saws, and they successfully tied the line in
with out further spread.
i dont' know how much i have helped you but i hope i at least gave you
something you can use. good luck with your project.
-I love the off season
NP |
| 11/25 |
I think the last couple of posts pretty well sum up my thoughts on the
60 minutes article better than I could have said it.
Something I'd like to add though for those of you in the Federal
Wildland side of things who think the FWFSA, IAFF and CPF are not doing
anything for you (member or non-member). In the most recent IAFF
convention (in Los Vegas this past year) there were a number of issues
adopted by the IAFF to lobby congress specifically for Federal
Firefighters including leave and pay issues, improved retirement (3% @
50), presumptive illness laws and the portal to portal issue among others.
Additionally the IAFF and CPF are largely responsible for saving the jobs
of many Federal Firefighters whose jobs were threatened by contracting
(and I know you wildland types are watching your backs on that issue too).
I've met many of the leaders of the FWFSA and they are dedicated to
improving the working conditions of Federal Wildland Firefighters, many of
them are nearing the ends of their careers and likely will not gain much
from the benefits they seek.
The FWFSA is only about 200 people, not much really when you consider
the IAFF's membership is somewhere in the 10's of thousands, and yet they
still find room for the FWFSA's issues. One thing that really exasperated
me when I was with the USFS was the anti-union attitude and contempt for
the FWFSA many of the firefighters I worked around displayed, I ran across
many who felt the $15-20 a month was only for a sticker and not worth the
money, and yet many played the lotto regularly (and with higher cost) and
unfortunately I've seen some of the same attitudes displayed here. It is
my understanding that there are still those working for the agencies who
fight against issues like portal to portal and increasing the numbers of
PFT and WAE employees. I know of instances in which employees were
converted from WAE to PFT and threatened legal action for being offered
full time employment because it would mess up their unemployment
"vacations" in the winter, and there are many who fight tooth
and nail against having "traditional structural"
responsibilities added to their jobs (I will never understand how an
agency can properly provide fire protection in an urban interface
environment without providing the equipment and training for 1/2 of the
equation).
I now work on the Federal Structural side but many of our issues and
concerns are shared, one of the difficulties we are facing is getting our
people to accept that we can no longer sit around and do things as they
have always been done, we need to be proactive, get out in the community
(not locked behind our gates) so that when politicians come around looking
for something to cut they get a big red flag from the locals (the tax
payers, aka voters), we need to be indispensable to the locals so that
they see us as an integral part of their safety not services they can take
over for some quick cash. Wildland firefighters are not really any
different, if you think about it ,you only exist to protect vegetation,
(at least on paper), trees won't get involved in letter writing campaigns
when the pendulum swings again and suppression resources are cut back, the
local communities will, when the Green (or yellow or white)
"wildland" engine down the street that saved Aunt Edna last year
gets shut down due to budget cuts. If it sat in the station while the
ambulance came up from the city because "we don't do that" they
won't even notice when its gone.
Well I've gone off on enough of a tangent / rant. Sorry Ab but over the
past several months I have seen too many bash the IAFF, FWFSA, CPF and
NFPA posts, all organizations working to enhance the lives of firefighters
and as Popeye says, "I've had all I can stand, I can't stands no
more".
Fedfire |
| 11/25 |
I was pleased to receive a call tonight from FWFSA, IAFF Local F-262
president Mike Preasmeyer concerning the recent 60 Minutes show on
firefighter related arson fires.
Before submitting this e-mail, I read the article on the IAFF web-site
as well as the e-mails posted to this site on the issue. As one who has
diligently led the legislative effort on behalf of the nation's federal
wildland firefighters for several years, I'd like to offer my honest
assessment of the situation.
As many know, the issue of professional (paid) firefighters versus
volunteer firefighters heated up this past year on the East Coast. The
issue in fact got all the way to the floor of the U.S. House of
Representatives and more recently the issue's "collateral
damage" was an IAFF local union president squarely in the middle of
the issue back east, being fired by the White House from his position on
an 11-member panel developed to select recipients of the Congressional
medal of Valor.
I've known both former IAFF president Al Whitehead, and current
president Harold Schaitberger for nearly 9 years. While I can honestly and
candidly say that the federal firefighters in California I represent are
often at odds with the legislative efforts/strategies utilized by the IAFF
for the achievement of federal firefighter issues, I do not believe for
one minute that the IAFF would post the article as a shot, or criticism
towards seasonal wildland firefighters.
It was just a couple of years ago that Harold Schaitberger gave me what
I like to call "carte blanche" on working our federal wildland
firefighter issues. We were successful during the 106th Congress in
getting a bill introduced, heard, passed, and signed into law with respect
to the OT pay cap as it relates to wildland firefighting.
This past 107th session, we had hoped to have a 2nd bill introduced to
address the portal to portal issue and the inclusion of hazardous duty pay
in retirement calculations. A number of factors prevented the bill from
being introduced before the recent November 5th election's and congress'
adjournment.
However, I have passed along to FWFSA president Preasmeyer a letter
from Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA) re-emphasizing his commitment to these
issues in the 108th congress. Further, a recent conversation I had with
the congressman indicated that if congress goes the route of passing an
"omnibus budget" bill when it convenes in January, rather than
separately finishing the appropriations bills that have yet to be passed,
it may in fact afford us the opportunity to add the portal to
portal/Hazardous duty pay language to the omnibus appropriations bill.
What does this have to do with the 60 minutes piece? Not much. What it
does have to do with is the fact that many people across this country,
from politicians to yes, many municipal "city" firefighters have
no clue what fighting a massive wildland fire entails. They have no
concept of a fire creating its own weather. They've never experienced
flames blowing across a 6 lane highway like a blow torch at 100mph.
Fortunately, for every "not-so-newsworthy" show like the 60
minutes piece, there are shows on Discovery and others that show what true
heroes all of you are. No one in your ranks will ever, EVER, forget Storm
King Mountain. It is my job that every politician knows about it, sees it,
tastes it and lives it until we achieve the legislative goals due to each
and every one of you.
It doesn't matter if you are a chief officer, smokejumper, first year
seasonal firefighter etc., you do something that not too many people would
be willing to do. Let CBS and 60 Minutes make their advertising dollars.
Few, if any, will remember the show anyway.
What each and everyone of you need to know is that there is power in
numbers. There is a greater voice in numbers. We have made tremendous
strides in educating congress on who you are and what you do. The FWFSA,
IAFF Local F-262 is the place to be and everyone needs to do their part to
educate new potential members so that your voice and your issues will be
heard even more loudly and more clearly.
I firmly believe the IAFF posted the article based upon it's recent
(and historic) issue surrounding volunteer firefighters and was in no way
posted to single out wildland firefighters. We all know that firefighters,
both professional and volunteer, will continue to give this proud
professional an occasional black-eye through arson.
Let's not get sidetracked from our goals and objectives by poorly
researched and hyped up news shows. Let's find ways to increase the
Association's membership and understand that it unfortunately costs money
to get issues engrained in the thick brains of folks on Capitol Hill, and
yes, the Forest Service and Dept. of Interior hierarchy.
Every kind of organization has a bad apple or two. Contrary to 60
minutes, it doesn't matter whether someone has had a background check or
not. There is always the risk of someone, in any profession, doing
something stupid...The rest of you stand proud for what you do and make a
difference. I'll help with the politics, you folks just cut the lines and
do the hard work. I am confident you will be rewarded.
With Great respect & Sincerity,
Casey Judd
5th District V.P.
California Professional Firefighters |
| 11/25 |
Norcal Tom,
This is why I love this site so much. It is good to see everyone
debating the issues and looking for a solution.
With that, I think the IAFF needs to be educated on the difference
between seasonal and permanent Firefighter and everyone needs to educate
themselves on the issues of the IAFF and who they represent.
I am not seeing where the IAFF is backing 60 minutes. All they have
done was run a report that had to do with arsonist. There are City,
County, State, and Federal Firefighters who start fires that are members
of the IAFF nation wide and I have never seen them raising an issue or
asking questions about why the IAFF is running these news reports on the
web or in their newsletter.
The IAFF is just a voice that the FWFSA uses to lobby along with CPF,
they are not a bargaining unit for use. God forbid that something was to
happen to you on the job that would have to do with a union issue, they
will not be there to back you up. They have no authority to do so, that is
why the Forest Service has their own AFL-CIO bargaining unit that
represents you.
Yes it is all politics, I think they will always show support for the
FWFSA, they have no reason not too. They need us just as much as we need
them to help fight and lobby our issues and for us to help pass their
concerns. We will never find a bigger or more established voice when it
comes for firefighter issues them the IAFF.
I look forward to reading your response and debating this issue again.
If I have made some mistakes on the mission of the FWFSA I would
appreciate some clarification from the higher brass.
A member of the FWFSA |
| 11/25 |
How to Bar-B-Q a turkey, I use a kettle barbecue (Webber) and the
"indirect method of heat."
It takes about 11 minutes per pound to cook a turkey, but depending on
air temp. and wind, it might take a little longer, ALWAYS use a
thermometer to insure that internal temp is 160 degrees in the thickest
part of the turkey.
You have to start with a thawed turkey, do not stuff. If you wish to
add flavoring to the bird, rub the bird inside and out with the flavoring
of choice the night before, wrap in a clean plastic bag (small white
garbage bag-the unscented kind) and let set in the refer over night until
ready to cook. I just use season salt, but you could use Cajun, or
whatever.
Use about 2 pounds of charcoal to start per side of the kettle, when
the coals are hot place the bird in the kettle and close the lid. Place a
foil pan on the charcoal rack between the coals to catch the drippings.
Open the dampers to allow the most heat to develop and check about every
30 minutes to ensure the coals are still burning hot, as the coals burn
down, add more briquettes as needed to maintain Max temp. When you near
the time when the bird should be done, start checking the internal temp
and when it reaches 160 remove the bird from the barbecue.
I like to smoke my birds and do this by adding small pieces of Alder to
the coals as soon as the bird is on the grill. I use green branches about
the size of my finger to make the smoke. You can use fruit wood or any
other good "smoking" wood that you might have available. If I
see the smoke "dying" down I will add more wood to maintain a
large volume of smoke until the bird is done.
Hope this helps and enjoy.
Gobble Guy |
| 11/25 |
NorCal Tom/FWFSA Member
Sorry to see folks get worked up on an article about "Volunteer
Fire Depts". Its sad and true folks in the Fire Service have been
investigated for starting fires. The archives of "THEY SAID" no
doubt have postings in the past. Politics of bashing volunteer fire
departments replacing paid professional firefighters? I dont even want to
go there. IAFF bashing Wildland Firefighters......... Thats one I would
take. I agree with the FWFSA member. "The message was taken in the
wrong context" by the reader. If IAFF really ment to slander the
Wildland firefighter, I Know the President of IAFF would personally give
me a notice. The 16th District Vice-President would call me or send a
letter of the Presidents concerns. IAFF is a Professional organization.
There are 30.000 members in California. I dont agree with every IAFF
issue. I do agree to support the membership at large. IF the FWFSA
membership at large reads the IAFF posting as slander to Wildland
Firefighters. I will respond to IAFF.
Mike Preasmeyer, President - FWFSA
IAFF - Local F-262 |
| 11/25 |
<<has been reading postings for months without comment.........
everyone has OPINIONS, it's similar to having body parts. Therefore, if
you don't have FACTS, it's supposition and conjecture which equals MYTH.
do everyone a favor, do not post without specifics. Unions? in USFS or
BLM? good luck! for the STATE OF CA folk, you stand a better chance of
making inroads....and read your bargaining unit's agreement - if you have
questions about portal-to-portal take a look at the Bureau of State
Audit's latest findings, it's at bsa.ca.gov.
one final comment, the management of wildland timber has been a mess
for many years; it will remain so until the courts sort it out. control
burns are making the press everytime it gets out of control, so the bosses
best get a clue because the bottom line is fiduciary responsibility.
Northzone5 |
| 11/24 |
Here's link to get to the NAPA (National Academy of Public
Administration) report on Containing Wildfire Cost, 462 pages.
http://www.napawash.org/
<snip.pdf>
CI
CI, the pdf file was huge and my computer's message said it would
take 24 minutes to download. I linked to the main site instead so people
could have info on options in downloading. Ab. |
| 11/24 |
"A member of the FWFSA"
I think we need to know from IAFF exactly where they stand in posting
the 60 Minutes post in question. The 60 Minutes piece was flawed. A union
that represents wildland firefighters including seasonals should know
this. If they don't there's a problem. If they do there's a problem, since
some of the erroneous information is slanted against the seasonal wildland
firefighters they supposedly represent. Posting misinformation by those
who should know better smacks of politics to me with seasonal wildland
firefighters being relegated to the category of BAD guys. Stereotypes come
from such simple beginnings. Professional status is difficult to achieve
if the stereotype is that seasonal wildland firefighters are arsonists.
"A member of the FWFSA" I would argue that the devil is in the
details. The details in this instance are important and reflect the
professionalism (or not) of 60 Minutes, IAFF, and wildland firefighters
whether seasonal or permanent.
NorCal Tom |
| 11/24 |
I am a student working on a group project where we are trying to collect
information on Wildfires in general as well as the Mc Nally fire. I saw
your site and was wondering if you could suggest any links or suggestions
on where I can find useful information. One portion of our research has to
do with the debate between controlled burns vs. logging as a way to
prevent future fires. I am interested to know the views of someone who
fights these types of fires. So, any information you could give me on that
would be greatly appreciated! Thanks so much..
AH |
| 11/24 |
In-regards to the post from the IAFF,
I don't see anything wrong with what they have posted. It is a fact that
firefighters, people who want to be firefighters, and firefighters
families start fires. It doesn't matter if they are volunteer or
permanent, they still start fires that sometimes kill others.
In my opinion it is not slamming the Forest Service, there was only one
mention of Forest Service employees starting fires and yes they got some
of it wrong, one was an AD and the other was a permanent employee.
SoCalCapt. with your comments, you are no better then CBS and the IAFF if
you are looking at bashing Forest Service employees. It doesn't matter if
she was in fire or not, she was an employee of the Forest Service, at that
time in a fire position.
You guys are taking this way to personnel, people in the fire business
start fires and they always will.
A member of the FWFSA |
| 11/24 |
Thanks for the info Jake.
CDF Wife |
| 11/24 |
Re: IAFF Post regarding "seasonal firefghters"
I concur whole heartedly. This is a clear show of dis-respect to us and
our
members.
DW |
| 11/24 |
Hi Ab,
Now that the fire season has slowed down and prescribed fire is finally in
full swing, I've been trying to contact some of the overhead teams that we
worked with this past summer to offer kudos and some ideas to help resolve
problems that occurred. It is interesting to note that even after spending
several hours tracking down team rosters on the internet that most teams
don't display any email contacts, phone numbers or addresses. I understand
that these team folks don't need to be inundated with unwanted
solicitations during fire season but the fire community needs to have a
way to communicate with the teams after the incidents. To not post a way
to contact team members on their roster pages is the start of a
fundamental communication break down and strikes me as somewhat cowardly.
Only three teams that I worked with this past summer asked for feed-back
and team evaluation from those pounding ground (Van Bruggan, Mike Lowry,
and Humphreys' teams did solicit performance critic from the masses, at
their incidents). Are the others afraid?
Rock @Wood's Fire and Emergency Services
woodsfire@hotmail.com
You could always look up the contact info of the IC or the DIC
(after finding their name on the roster) on the Find a USFS Employee/DOI
Employee utility under Federal on our Links
page. The link to the team pages are right there with the lookup info. I
personally don't think such info should be too readily available on the
www. Ab. |
| 11/24 |
SoCal Capt and Concerned,
I'd like a phone number and some names of IAFF people to call.
What a bunch of BOZOs playing politics. Or maybe they're just
plain stupid. If so, why are they representing us?
Wouldn't hurt to give 60 Minutes a bit of grief either.
NorCal Tom |
| 11/24 |
Not so new CDF wife.
Most of your questions can be answered if you go to www.fire.ca.gov. This
is CDF's website. Go to the Fire/Rescue section and look under
"Cooperative Efforts" then look under "Local
Government" it will have a detailed breakdown of who contracts with
us. Here is a snap shot.
Since the 1940's man local government agencies have been contracting with
CDF for fire protection. Of the 58 counties in California 35 contract CDF
to be their "County Fire Dept." We staff 405 local government
fire stations and operate 689 engine companies, 17 Ladder companies
(Riverside I believe just got 4 new tillered trucks) 105 Rescues/Squads,
etc,etc. These numbers do not include State stations or State
engines/equipment.
Of the contracts there are 24 cities, 27 districts, and 35 special service
areas that contract with CDF for fire protection. This includes EMS
service both ALS and BLS, fire protection (wildland/structural), Rescue
(Swiftwater, Surf, Rope, and USAR), fire prevention, law enforcement, code
enforcement, etc.
These contracts can vary from what we call Schedule A. Which is a full
time contract to an Amador Plan. The Amador plan basically keeps the fire
station open that we would normally close during non-fireseason. So if
fire season is 9 months long they would only pay for the other 3 months of
fire protection. This is a really generalized explanation of CDF
contracts. There are many types and complex to explain in detail.
Hope this helps
Jake |
| 11/23 |
>From the IAFF post and CBS news....
"The massive Colorado and Arizona forest fires over the summer were
both
started by seasonal fire fighters;"
For the IAFF and CBS.. you are wrong on both accounts...
1) One firefighter was an emergency hire AD firefighter, and
2) The other was a recreation technician (forest protection)... sometimes
confused for a wildland firefighter since they are both in the same
federal
series...
SoCalCapt |
| 11/23 |
Ab, the 60 Minutes show was a slap in the face to wildland
firefighters!!!
It was a particular slap in the face to seasonal wildland firefighters
across the country when the IAFF posts this crap... Please make the link
available http://daily.iaff.org/112102cbs.htm
If I am a wildland firefighter and pay my dues to FWFSA or CDF
Firefighters.. I'd hope someone in the FWFSA or CDF F and IAFF steps up
and
has this post removed.... I'd hope everyone in CPF joins to have this
removed!! CDF Firefighters.. what do you think?
There are arsonists among all groups of firefighters as well as all groups
of Americans.. to point the finger at volunteers and seasonals is
APPALLING!!!!!!.. To me, it's a direct slap at the FWFSA and CDF
Firefighters. CBS and IAFF... DO WE FORGET some of the most revealing
cases that were IAFF members and permanent firefighters? Let's not go
there...
And remove the posts from the IAFF website before the chat starts...
Seasonal Wildland Firefighters are members of the IAFF!!! Maybe they
should check their stats!!!...
We can't build a strong wildland firefighter Association when our own paid
advocate (IAFF) is "slamming" us to build press.
Concerned.. FWFSA, CPF, and IAFF Member (and damn pissed off) |
| 11/23 |
A link came in for Garcia's Type II IMT. Seems it's the first SW Type
II team with a website. If anyone knows of other Type II teams that are
building websites this winter, send in the links and we'll post 'em on the
Type II team links
page that can be accessed on our main links page under Federal.
This letter from
Ann Veneman re the Homeland Security Act has come in from several
folks and might be of interest.
Ab. |
| 11/23 |
One year someone sent in info on how to barbeque a turkey. Anyone know
what that was?
Still lurking,
JK |
| 11/23 |
Does anyone know how many local fire departments around CA do as Hopland
does and hire CDF firefighters to work in the winter months? I found this
article interesting and just wonder if they do this in SoCali or if it's
only done in the north. How widespread is the practice? Seems it would
benefit all involved. Any downside? Do other states have similar programs?
www.ukiahdailyjournal.com
not so new CDF wife |
| 11/22 |
More photos up on Fire 14,
AirTankers 6, and Logo
8 photo pages. Read the descriptions for details. Thanks everyone.
Ab. |
| 11/22 |
Todd and Ken,
Glad you guys cleared some of that up for me! It would be nice if the
website explained this a little better, though. I readily concur that a
united voice is essential for furthering wildland issues- and you'll get
my app. after thanks giving!
One issue that has been kicked around for years and brought out by the
recent fireman vs. potty scrubber discussion. Primary fire definitely
needs to be given the respect and pay that's due. Perhaps it relates to
the whole portal to portal thing....
-blackliner |
| 11/22 |
Ab,
For folks who may want to pursue a career as a "Digital Field
Observer" check out:
www.nps.gov/gis/fire
We still have limited space available in the upcoming GPS for ICS courses.
Application deadline is December 10. Details are available at:
www.wildlandfire.com/jobs/gps_training.htm
Thanks again for helping to get the word out. This field is the future and
it's happening now!
Tom Patterson |
| 11/22 |
The Jobs, wildland
firefighter Series 462
and 455 pages are
updated. Ab.
Alaska anyone?
The Fire Specialists will be extending their Case-Exam vacancy
announcement, (for those seeking a competitive appointment) for an extra
week.
If you want to see Alaska (and the rest of the West), do different things,
get the most training, and have the best opportunities for your future ?
the Fire Specialists have the job for you. (more on the jobs page) |
| 11/22 |
TOP TEN REASONS TO JOIN the FWFSA!!!
10. I'm a wildland firefighter and I CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
9. I get really cool stickers, a magazine, and the ability to buy some
really awesome merchandise.
8. Money and Credit http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/money/
7. Insurance Deals http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/insurance/
6. Health Savings http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/health/
5. Education Services for ME and my family
http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/education/
4. Auto Advantages http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/auto/
3. House and Home http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/home/
2. Travel and Recreation http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/travel/
1. Did I mention it... a really bitchin credit card???
http://www.unionplus.org/benefits/money/card.cfm
Todd, a Letterman Fan |
| 11/21 |
MAW here, the Wolf fire, above the city of Ojai, is on the Los Padres N.
F.
not the Angeles. Thanks
Hi MAW, I knew that, good correction... Ab. |
| 11/21 |
blackliner,
Why would someone want to be a FWFSA member?
That's an easy question to answer.... Without members committed to the
betterment of Federal Wildland Firefighters, the issues of portal to
portal
pay, hazardous duty differential inclusion for retirement, and proper
classification of wildland firefighters AS FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS WOULD NOT
BE
ADDRESSED. Various other issues relating to firefighters as a community
are
also being addressed by the IAFF, such as the Federal Presumptive
Disability
Bill and the future bill addressing 3%@50 retirement for FEDERAL
FIREFIGHTERS.
If you talk to your local congressman or senators as a single person
without
any affiliation, your voice is usually pretty weak. If you talk to the
same
local congressman and senators as an FWFSA member and member of the
IAFF...
your voice is amplified 250,000 times... pretty hard not to listen to that
voice. NOW AMPLIFY THAT VOICE BY 13 MILLION AMERICANS... the AFL-CIO.
That's why everyone who is a Federal Wildland Firefighter should join the
FWFSA!!!
.....Plus there are a few other perks:
IAFF Member Benefits www.iaff.org/build/content/benefits/index.html
Union PLUS Member Benefits Program
www.unionprivilege.org/
Holiday Gifts and Discounts
www.unionplus.org/discounts/?source=oaf
With the savings from all of these programs, HOW COULD SOMEONE NOT AFFORD
to
be a FWFSA member ... an IAFF member.... an AFL-CIO member?
www.fwfsa.org
Ken Kempter
Southern California Chapter Director
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, IAFF Local F-0262 |
| 11/21 |
From Firescribe:
Wildfire
Study Touts Thinning
Fire season is not over:
In SoCal:
Fire
Scorches Hills
Origin
of Yorba Linda Wildfire Incendiary in Nature
In AZ:
Wildfire
Danger Coronado NF, AZ
Way to tell it Gail!
About campfires, she says, "if you're not brave enough to stick your
hand in it, you shouldn't leave it."
Yea, ver'ly, let 'em cook by LASER LIGHT. <HAW><HAW> Ab. |
| 11/21 |
Hey Jackson, great idea to ban fireworks in Mt. Rushmore, but how 'bout
offering some alternatives such as laser shows or something. The tecnology
geeks are out there that could come up with some great (safe and sane)
patriotic shows that would not put us firefighters at risk. To oppose
something without offering an alternative worth considering makes a person
look pretty close minded.
Backburnfs |
| 11/21 |
Fire Terms: Crummy, Love Bug, Germ Box, Green Machine, Short Bus, Stink
Box, The Cage:
A ten-man crewhaul.
Also, I can't find any terrafirma on the PTP and reclassifying, also won't
be able to make Sacremento. Can someone give me a current status situation
on these issues.
Welp, time to go shovel more snow!
J |
| 11/21 |
Do you approve of a federal agency shooting FIREWORKS
over a forest?
Mount Rushmore National Memorial is attempting to
obtain long-term approval to shoot fireworks over a
ponderosa pine forest. They are paying a consultant
to write an environmental assessment (EA) that would
basically approve shooting fireworks within the park
every year on July 4.
Mount Rushmore is more than just a sculpture of four
presidents. The sculpture sits in the middle of a
ponderosa pine forest. The terrain is very steep and
rocky. One-half mile to the east and the north are
urban-interface areas near Keystone, South Dakota.
The Black Hills National Forest is on the other two
sides, dominated by closed-canopy pine forests
affected by 100 years of fire suppression.
The park tried shooting fireworks over the sculpture
and the forest on July 4 in 2000 and 2001. The hot
embers from the fireworks fell up to 1,500 feet from
the launch site, sometimes in fuels such as duff,
litter, and logs. THE FIREWORKS STARTED A TOTAL OF 17
VEGETATION FIRES. Wildland firefighters had to hike
over extremely steep and rocky terrain to reach the
fires AT NIGHT in order to put them out. During this
two-year period, there were two injuries to
firefighters caused by the steep rocky terrain. One
of them was a serious knee injury that resulted in the
firefighter being off work or on light duty for
several months.
The firefighters that have been asked to put out these
fires at night in the steep, rocky terrain have
expressed their opinion about the lack of sanity of
this whole concept. But, our input has fallen on deaf
ears.
PLEASE HELP YOUR FELLOW WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS
BY EXPRESSING YOUR OPINION.
The professional EA consultant is asking for public
input right now. They want to know if you think it is
a good idea for a federal agency to shoot fireworks
over a forest. WE HAVE HEARD THAT THE TOURIST
INDUSTRY IS GOING TO ORGANIZE A LETTER
WRITING CAMPAIGN IN FAVOR OF FIREWORKS.
If you have an opinion, send an E-mail to:
rushmorefireworks@mangi.com Express your own
thoughts, or copy and paste the following text:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Experience has proven that fireworks cause fires at
Mount Rushmore. It is environmentally unsound to
annually ignite fires in this manner. It is also
unsafe to expose firefighters to the suppression of
fires at night in extremely steep and rocky terrain.
The threats to nearby towns and private property are
high. I do not approve of the use of fireworks at
Mount Rushmore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jackson |
| 11/20 |
The Jobs, wildland
firefighter Series 462
and 455 pages are
updated. Ab. |
| 11/20 |
Aussie CFU,
Politics and politicians are the same all over the world and in my
experience your list of effective communication ranking is spot on.
I have organized a few lobbying efforts on the state level and would
add the following: When you write to your representatives it doesn't hurt
to specifically lay out the need for the proposed change and ask them
"WHERE THEY STAND" on the issue. This will require a response of
some sort from them and so give you confirmation your message was
received. It will also require that some thought be given the issue you
have presented if no ready "stock" response will fit. And if you
get a "thank you for contacting Senator Soandso" reply letter
that does not answer your "where do you stand" question send
another letter and include a copy of the bogus response.
When the legislation proposed finally get to the hearing stage...Write
those same legislators and ask if they plan on supporting the legislation
and provide at least three good reasons they should. Send copys of all
responses to the folks in charge of lobbying for the proposed
legislation...it is valuable information to them.
While I would not directly benefit from legislation like portal to
portal I believe the firefighting community a whole would. I also believe
that the USA needs a strong emergency response capability and WE are an
integral part of that capability. I therefore support any such proposed
legislation...and would be more than willing to contact MY REPRESENTATIVES
in Washington to help generate their support. It is difficult for a single
representative to garner all the support needed to propose and pass into
law any legislation on their own. I know their job is made easier the more
"allies" they have on board at the proposal stage as well as
when it is time to vote...and the more likely such legislation passes
quickly into law.
I admire and respect the FWFSA folks that have worked to get wildfire
issues before the Nations' legislators. I suspect they can use all the
help they can get and hope they will not hesitate to let the readers (and
posters) to They Said know exactly what we can do to help them in their
efforts.
Dana |
| 11/20 |
Some info for Jim:
You can get some decent wildland fire software for the palm pilot at
http://www.pocketmobility.com/fire/fire.html . I have tried it all out and
it seems to work pretty well. The program called fireaway is basically
BEHAVE and works well.
-C |
| 11/20 |
A guy from Colorado has developed some programs that will run behave on
the
palm pilots plus a couple of other fire useful programs. The E-mail
address is scienceonthego.com. Great job on the site Ab!
Signed
A Division. |
| 11/20 |
Hi
this is Polo I am sending you this on scotts Account. your web site look
great
keep up the good work.
Welcome Polo, thanks for the compliment on the website and thank you
for the logo contributions. I puth them on the Logo
8 page. Does Scott know you've sent them in? <haw> I corrected
some of your spelling as I sometimes do for the firefighters. Hope that's
OK. Come again. Ab. |
| 11/20 |
Paul,
On behalf of the entire fire community I want to let you know how much
we appreciate, love and support you. We must get together and tell
stories.
Tahoe Terrie |
| 11/20 |
Jake,
The course you were trying to think of is S-520 Advanced Incident Command.
Under NWCG guidelines, of which CDF is a member, it is a required course
to be considered a Type 1 Nationally. You are correct in that each state
can proclaim themselves as Type 1, however it is only recognized in that
state. Recently at the National Assn. of State Foresters meeting the NASF
approved the Complex Incident Management Course, sponsored by NASF and
USFS, as meeting the requirement for state teams to be considered Type 1.
This will allow states to recognize each other and the Feds to acknowledge
them as State Type 1 teams.
It might interest you to also know that CDF does still send people to the
S-520 course in Marana. In fact there are one or two that will be
attending the 2003 course.
"Boo" |
| 11/20 |
In reference to Jim's post re palm pilot.
Might try:
http://www.pocketmobility.com/
then check what they have to offer for fire fighting and wildland fire
fighting.
Hickman
Others have sent in info or contacts that I have forwarded to Jim. Ab. |
| 11/20 |
Hey FOlks!
With all of the discussion concerning contacts with legislators, fwfsa and
associated issues, no one has really addressed what a federal wildland
firefighter gains by joining your organization. Other than a voice (which,
don't get me wrong, is very important), what can line firefighters expect?
I visited the website and saw very little to convince me that it was worth
my dime to join. After all, I can call my senator and representative (and
do) with the aid of a "membership".
Anyway, did a little rx-burning last week, and now I'm looking forward to
some time knocking down birds over the back of my brit!
-blackliner |
| 11/19 |
SoCalCapt,
The LP got called up from the Cleveland today for some Engines to come
down for coverage. I don't know if we sent any or not, sounds like things
are still burning down south. We heard that CNF and BDF or getting at
least two fires a day and the tankers are doing alot of flying.
Hope you tripled the order for turkey dinners to feed everyone who is
coming down. Be safe down there.
An-R5er |
| 11/19 |
I spoke at some length to one of the assistants of one of the state
politicians and the end result is that I was told that the order of
importance that is attached to a communication is ranked as follows:
1.Personally visiting your local member (not one of the flunky’s)
2.Hand written letter.
3.Typed letter
4.E-mail
5.Phone call
6.Form letter
7.Petition (as a signee not as the instigator).
The way the ranking works is to do with the amount of time and effort it
takes to get your point across.
If you take the time to make an appointment, get dressed up go in and see
him/her there you are very serious and have attached a lot if importance
to the issue.
It takes much longer to hand write a letter that is neat and tidy, than to
type up a letter, dash off an E-Mail or make a quick phone call.
Now while the country might be different, I think the reasoning would
apply to the USA.
Regards,
Aussie CFU |
| 11/19 |
CDF Wife,
I would like to go more in depth about the qualifications issue. I
myself worked for the USFS (R5) about 11 years ago. And since then I
have worked for BLM, and 3 different contractors. I have been an engine
FFT1
(second in charge), and after having 2 kids and shattering my knee, I
operated a lookout tower, I was in finance on Big Bar in '99, and have
been
in finance for contractors ever since. I believe I understand the
"system"
and requirements very well. I do believe that no matter what agency or
contractor you talk about there will always be controversy.
But having said that, this year I was witness to some gross negligence on
behalf
of a "CDF" representative. I believe that this person was
GROSSLY underqualified
for the position that he was "given." I hope that in the future
that people of
ALL agencies, contractors and the instructors that teach them -- you
people that
sign your name certifying that a person knows and is capable of performing
all
qualifications listed on the "redcard" or other certification
sheet -- I hope you
REALLY KNOW the person you're certifying is trained and qualified for the
position. It does us all a disservice to put unqualified people in
positions of
responsibility.
R6 fire fighter's wife |
| 11/19 |
Do you know where I can get any Wildlands Fire Software for the Palm V?
I'm
sure there is software available. Do you know of any freeware that
pertains
to this subject. We are in a remote area and some calculations could be
done with this software and the small Palm V before calling in a fire.
Regards,
Jim |
| 11/19 |
Fire N' Politics
Ab,
Some folks were wondering how effective e-mails and
phone calls were to our Legislators. Having spent a
session as a secretary for some Reps at a state
capitol, I thought I might share my limited
experience, which is basically: it all depends on
which Legislator you're dealing with, but the local
guys and gals will be most responsive. (Note to
Mellie: in our office, both phone messages and e-mails
were printed out, and so arrived in similar format and
within a similar timeframe on the Representative's
desk.)
The local politicians didn't always act on major
issues of concern, but most of them at least kept
track of any issue that constituents brought to their
attention more than once. An amazing number of them
made time to personally read their messages, briefly
do some research, and then write out a thoughtful
response.
My buddy, who once worked for a Senator in D.C.,
confirmed that the picture out there is much
different. Getting a message to your national
representative, by e-mail OR phone, is almost
impossible. The vast majority of these messages are
heard only by the 'phone jockeys' and 'e-mail jockeys'
whose job it is to shoot off the appropriate form
letter responses. These are people who have about as
much political clout as the guy who empties the
Capitol Hill wastebaskets. In my friend's opinion,
your national Legislator will seldom hear about your
issue unless he/she gets feedback from your local
Legislators that a lot of folks back home have the
same concerns. (Unless you get lucky, and your issue
is one in which the Legislator happens to have a
personal interest. Hope we have a couple of those on
our side.)
Again, this is just from personal experience. Perhaps
others out in Theysaid Land have had better luck with
the 'Lege' in D.C.
**To those of you out there working for PTP and other
ff issues, whether you're successful or not - THANKS
FOR TRYING.**
Kibby |
| 11/19 |
Ab:
concerning those who want to get in touch with their senator or
representative:
my college roommate is now the press secretary for a congresswoman. he
passed along the info that it is best to use two modes of communication:
email and send a formal letter. he said that phone calls are
"painfully
slow", as most offices are flooded with phone calls, and these have
to be
taken (usually by a volunteer), recorded, typed, and finally then they
reach
the congressperson. so, send a letter and an email -
JerseyBoy |
| 11/19 |
Anybody have any pictures from the Purdy Fire on the Gallatin NF in
Montana
in 2001? I need a few for a project. Thanks.
Steve |
| 11/19 |
Here is a link to the latest word on the BRP due date:
BRP report
release now 9 December
JW |
| 11/19 |
hahahahahahahahahaha on the much-ado-about-nothing yesterday, unless we
can just chalk it up to a training session. <wipe that silly grin off
your face> Visions of a timed fire shelter deployment practice come to
mind. <all serious>
FWFSA Groundpounder thanks for the try! You're a person after my own
heart! Get people organized and make a difference. Talk, Talk, Talking
about things you wish would change only goes so far, after all.
As for my personal lunchtime exercise down Congress Lane, I have lately
wanted an excuse to compare ways of contacting congress, so I had a great
lunch hour trying it. Does anyone know if emails are less effective than
phone calls? Maybe I will research that when I have time. We want the most
streamlined, effective, least costly ways of making our voices heard.
FWFSA, this false start brings home the necessity of your website having
CORRECT INFORMATION. If we want people to do what they can on a dime, we
need to give them the GOODS. Webmaster and others with the current
legislative information, I suggest you look through your website and see
if there is any incorrect or out-of-date information there. Then Keep It
Up to Date! Correct information is like timely confirmations of
membership; both are earmarks of a professionally run operation.
FWFSA folks: Kudos to you for your good volunteer work on everyone's
behalf. It's hard when people only pick on the stuff that's wrong. A
thankless job sometimes to be the DOers. But you've got to make
improvements if we're all to work together on this!
I called Pombo's office yesterday just in case PTP was not coat-tailing on
the bill the House passed. They said they had someone looking into that
for firefighters and would get back to me on it, but it might take a few
days to a week. Well, now I know why they didn't know. (Who were the
firefighters who wanted to know?)
Thanks All, false attempt or not, it was FUN!
Mellie |
| 11/19 |
This article was in Boulder Daily Camera this past Sunday. Thought you
might want to see it.
Big
Elk fire memorial rejected
Have a good Thanksgiving.
CAFSMAN |
| 11/19 |
Ab,
Where can I find copy of the "Fire on the Mountain" movie? I
didn't see
it when it came out and I don't have cable anymore. Any suggestions?
-Nomad
As I recall, you can buy one from the History Channel. Check their
internet site. You can also get a tape and book set. Maybe someone taped
it and would share. Ab. |
| 11/18 |
Well, Mike, it's good we now know Portal to Portal is not a rider on the
Homeland Security Bill. The info on the FWFSA website on the FAQ page
should be changed now if you haven't already done it. Nothing like acting
on incorrect info...
I did call Pombo's CA office yesterday morning to try to confirm that it
had been on the Bill that passed the House. The person who answered said
she'd have the Washington office research that and get the info to me
within a few days - Too late for a vote today.
We could all take a lesson from the organization of the environmentalists.
Often a very few people can impact federal policy if they are organized
and contact their congressmen. Let's just call this "dry run" on
calling or emailing - PRACTICE or TRAINING for getting some important
legislation passed -.
Thanks Mellie for the research. I am still not so comfortable with
computer communication to congressionals, I guess. Mellie, I will try the
computer drill for practice sake. Offhand, I wonder what the people on the
phones do. Does the info called in really get to the Senator? Anyone sat
behind one of those phone jockeys to see what happens?
FWFSA Groundpounder |
| 11/18 |
Live from SoCal!!
SAN BERNARDINO AND RIVERSIDE COUNTY VALLEYS-THE INLAND EMPIRE-
SANTA ANA MOUNTAINS AND FOOTHILLS- 200 PM PST MON NOV 18 2002
...WIND ADVISORY TUESDAY...
...HIGH WIND WATCH TUESDAY NIGHT THROUGH 2 PM WEDNESDAY...
LOCAL NORTHEAST WINDS INCREASING TO 20 TO 30 WITH GUSTS TO 40 MPH
TUESDAY...MAINLY THROUGH AND BELOW CANYONS AND PASSES. WINDS INCREASING
TO 30 TO 45 MPH WITH GUSTS TO OVER 60 MPH TUESDAY NIGHT AND WEDNESDAY.
THE WINDS WILL DECREASE DURING THE AFTERNOON WEDNESDAY.
***RED FLAG WARNING FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
MOUNTAINS AND IN THE COASTAL BASIN BELOW CANYONS
AND PASSES FOR STRONG GUSTY WINDS AND LOW HUMIDITY
FROM TUESDAY 0900 HOURS THROUGH WEDNESDAY 1400
HOURS.***
SoCalCapt
Record drought... Dead trees and brush all over... Hey, it rained...
fire season is over down there... Right? Ab. |
| 11/18 |
More on Illegitimis non carborundum - as if anybody cared.
"Carborundum" is a trademark for a very hard substance composed
of silicon
carbide, used in grinding. (The name "Carborundum" is a blend of
"carbon"
and "corundum". "Corundum" denotes aluminium oxide,
and comes to English
from Tamil kuruntam; it is related to Sanskrit kuruvinda =
"ruby".) "The "
-ndum" ending suggests the Latin gerundive, which is used to express
desirability of the activity denoted by the verb, as in Nil desperandum
= "nothing to be despaired of"; addendum = "(thing) fit to
be added";
corrigendum = "(thing) fit to be corrected"; and the name
Amanda, from
amanda = "fit to be loved").
Illegitimis is the dative plural of illegitimus =
"illegitimate"; the
gerundive in Latin correctly takes the dative to denote the agent.
Illegitimus could conceivably mean "bastard" in Latin, but was
not the
usual word for it: Follett World-Wide Latin Dictionary (Follett, 1967)
gives nothus homo for bastard of known father, and spurius for bastard of
unknown father.
The phrase "Illegitimis non carborundum." Loosely translated
means "Don't
let the bastards grind you down." The phrase originated with British
army
intelligence early in World War II. It was popularized when U.S. General
Joseph W. "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell (1883-1946) adopted it as his
motto.
Various variant forms and spellings appear to be in general circulation
with fire personnel.
Stilwell, an American General, spent most of World War II as
Chiang-Kai-Shek's Chief of Staff in China. He was a man often at odds with
Generals Wavell, Slim, and Wingate, men with whom he was to co-operate in
Burma. He also had arguments with Brigadier General Chennault, commander
of
the 14th USAAF in China. These arguments earned him the nickname 'Vinegar'
Joe.
HELLitorch
<HAW><HAW> Ab. |
| 11/18 |
FWFSA Groundpounder:
The Portal to Portal and Hazard pay toward retirement legislation are not
attached to the "Homeland Security Bill". Our legislation will
have to wait for the 108th session of Congress in Jan/Feb. FWFSA does have
a letter from Congressman Richard Pombo which states, "the
legislation will continue to be a top priority....". I trust
Congressman Pombo to know the Political playing field. He will introduce
the legislation in the Spring. I spoke to a bunch of the HotShots in Sept
while visiting several Angeles Fires. I started the "Homeland
Security" issue after Congressman Pombo advised FWFSA it would be a
good shot. If you like to research legislation, take a look at Homeland
Security. The Bill has over 50 "withdraws". The Senate is still
looking at not passing it with the add ons. My vote is wait til Our
legislative advisors suggest "Lets Roll". When the Legislation
hits the Floor, FWFSA will post it on our Web site and "THEY
SAID". Please try to make the December 14th General membership
meeting at the Red Lion Inn, Sacramento, 0800 in the California Meeting
room. Thanks for your support of FWFSA.
Mike Preasmeyer - President, Federal Wildland Fire Service Association
IAFF local - F262 |
| 11/18 |
I was just wonder if anybody could answer a question. The Rumor I heard
was
that the GOverment is goin to start checking to see if our wildland fire
boots have the white tag the nomex have..
Fight Fire 75 |
| 11/18 |
Word is that the release date for the Blue Ribbon Panel Report on Aerial
Firefighting was pushed back to Dec 9. It will be available on the
internet.
Paper Jockey |
| 11/18 |
Email your senators! OK, don't do that, false alarm, view this as
training!
I just spent my lunch hour and tried all 3 ways to reach my CA
senators. Some ways are easier than others. Emailing and cutting and
pasting the message is by far the easiest and doesn't cost anything.
If you call Washington (for CA senators) you will get a message about
the phone lines being overloaded and you can call the senator's state
office number that they give you. Very shortly after that in both my
cases, a Washington phone staffer picked up the phone. I said I was from
CA. One asked for zip code, the other did not. I told them how I'd like my
senator to vote.
The two staffers I talked to in Washington seemed to know what I was
talking about when I said I was for the Homeland Security Bill
being passed ASAP, which meant that I was against the new Bill to
Strip the special interest items that was to be voted on tomorrow.
The staffers in the local offices wanted my name and zip code but were
more confused by my request. I had to clarify with them that I was for
the Homeland Security Bill but against the bill that would delay
the Homeland Security Bill, ie, the one that would strip provisions
(riders, pork, special interest items). (One young woman didn't realize
another bill to strip special interests had been introduced.)
EMAIL YOUR SENATORS.
Here's an easier and more complete site to get e-mail addys (and local and
DC phone numbers). Click on your state. The first two in the list are your
senators. Email addys and local phone numbers are there. Click on the
e-mail for immediate gratification.
www.visi.com/juan/congress/
You're off and running. It's simple.
Be sure and include your name and address, your e-mail addy etc
-everything with a *.
For the general topic of the message, I chose "Terrorism" option
for one and "Homeland Security" for the other, depends on what
they have. If they have a Subject option say "Immediately Pass the
Homeland Security Bill"
For the message box, cut and paste the text provided between the ~~~~~~~'s
in FWFSA Groundpounder's message below. It's easy.
Thanks FWFSA dude or dudette for the info and stimulus! That's what we
need. Collective action!
Mellie |
| |
Word just in from the US Senate:
The Senate Democrats have said the GOP added 7 "special
interest" pork barrel goodies to the Homeland Security Bill that has
already passed the House of Representatives. The two provisions I heard
about were liability protections 1) for pharmaceutical companies and 2)
for other companies that make quality anti-terrorism technologies. No
mention of the portal to portal rider for wildland firefighters.
Tomorrow the Senate will vote on an amendment to strip all (7) special
interest provisions to the Homeland Security Bill, as Dana said they
might. If they do that and then pass a new Senate version of the Homeland
Security Bill, the House of Representatives will have to come back into
session to OK the changes and resolve differences between their bill and
the Senate bill. Since the House has already gone home for the holidays,
the Homeland Security Act is likely not to be passed this year.
The vote to strip is due tomorrow. Please call your 2 Senators and
leave a voice message with an aide.
If you are for the passage of the Homeland Security Act, tell them:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not delay passing the version of the Homeland Security Bill that has
already been passed by the House of Representatives.
Vote NO on the bill to to strip the special interests from the
HSB as passing that stripping bill will delay ratification.
Please pass IMMEDIATELY a Senate Homeland Security Bill that mirrors
the House bill so it can be signed by the President into law.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can find your senators with phone numbers and e-mail addresses here.
(If you send e-mail include your full name and address so they know that
they represent you.)
www.senate.gov/index.htm
Please, Everyone, you don't need to be FWFSA to sway your Senator. Get
your extended family and friends to call in or e-mail also. This is an
easy way to affect a Congressional outcome.
FWFSA Groundpounder
|
| 11/18 |
JW, Courtney and all,
that is correct about c510 on the swazey fire, we were called off the iron
fire on SHF where c506 was. we also were first ones there. Helicopters
8 is
the reference picture.
DRM |
| 11/18 |
Ab-
as an R-4 crew working in R-5 this summer, we worked with a number of
RHC's
- type one crews, but not IHC's. i've been told about how they are
primarily regional crews, but somehow i don't think i got the whole story.
could someone in the know inform me about these crews: , how/why were they
created, how many are there, what are their required quals, how are they
treated in dispatching, how are they used by overhead vs. IHC's, and what
sort of reputation does the RHC program have as a whole?
thanks,
JerseyBoy |
| 11/18 |
CDF NOT an essential State Service?!
What is this so called Governor using for brains, the primary mission
for
CDF is to protect state water shed. I guess water is not an essential
thing
to the state of California. Let's see CHP put out fires and save forests.
I guess the next nonessential will be air. Me thinks the Gov. is acting
like a King.
Retired L.A.V.E. |
| 11/18 |
RxFire,
Regarding Type Four and Five engines and the trend to put more water on
smaller engines in the Mountain West and Great Basin. Ditto on the Type
Six maneuverability with twice the water of a Type Five built on the Ford
Super Duty chassis.
But, and this is a big but, to fully load the engine with three
firefighters, their gear, fuel, foam, equipment and water and still stay
under the rated capacity is not an easy proposition. Loading 500 gallons
of water on the 4x4 SuperDuty F-450 15,000 pound chassis takes some good
engineering. Building a fully equipped Type Five on the Super Duty chassis
requires a pre-manufacturing weight check list worthy of a helibase
loadmaster. It's worth the trouble when good water sources may be 50 or
even 100 miles apart, though.
Same goes for the F-550 Super Duty 17,500 GVW configured as a Type Four
with 750 gallons. You're right up to the edge of the capacity. Did you
bolt and throw too much on? You'll find out soon enough when you bounce
around in the bush for a few months. If you have a Big Squat 100 miles
from the closest paved road about half way through the season, you
probably had too much. Or if it tips this side of Semi truck on the
scales.
Now, to throw another twist in all of this. Either one of the above
engines could be typed as a Type Three, depending on how much hose is on
board and the pump size. A Type Three has at least 500 gallons, a healthy
pump and a generous hose complement. My experience shows these are well
suited for urban interface (thus, their popularity in R-5).
Given the above, it's no surprise then, that more and more Type 3-4-5
engine modules are popping up in areas with water supply challenges. Gee,
are Type Sixes now passé in the West?
Snake River Sparky. |
| 11/18 |
Dear All,
Here is a book review. As it is published in Australia it might be a bit
hard to find but after listening to much more experienced fire fighters
and reading what you people are all saying it is certainly a book that
should be read by any home owner or occupier in the wildland/urban
interface zone or for those that live on farms or ranches.
To quote from the books introduction, “Fighting towering flames and fire
fronts is not what this book is about. It is about protecting the home and
family” , “ The majority of firefighters might be men, but the
majority who are at home when a bushfire threatens are women.” and “
90% of all houses saved were defended by one or more persons over the age
of ten, who knew what to do."
I would also suggest that it be read by any town manager, politician or
any other person who sets policy on what should or shouldn’t be done by
a home owner in preparation for, during and after a wildland fire around a
home.
As an unblooded novice in firefighting it is hard to find good and
reliable information about Australian fires and what a homeowner or
occupier of a house in the interface zone can do to prevent loss of
property or life. It also covers the complete picture for those that live
in a rural area. It offers good solid and detailed practical advice on how
to prepare the inside and the outside of a home, what you should wear,
what equipment you should have.
In clear and easy to understand terminology it explains about the what the
radiant heat of a fire can be like, as well as the effects of radiant
heat, dehydration which leads to heat exhaustion and stroke to people who
are not trained in firefighting.
I have asked members of the NSW Fire Brigades and Rural Fire Service and
all say that this is one of the best books ever written covering this
subject. From what I have been told it is recommended reading for all of
the NSWRFS personnel.
This book is recommended by Neil Cheney of the CSIRO, Bushfire Behaviour
and Management Group and leader of Project Vesta who is recognised as one
of Australia most knowledgeable scientists on Bushfires.
“The complete bushfire safety book” by Joan (Katherine) Webster
1st Ed 1986 pub by Thomas Nelson Australia
2nd Ed 1989 pub by Penguin Books Australia
3rd Ed 2000 Random House Australia
ISBN 1 74051 034 8.
Regards,
Aussie CFU |
| 11/17 |
Does anyone know where the Blue Ribbon Panel Report on Aerial
Firefighting
will be available when it comes out tomorrow? Will it be posted on the
internet?
Interested |
| 11/17 |
IHC Supt. I pondered your response to Bell and think that you are right
using today's logic, but: What about the FS contracting for an IHC that
has a guaranteed 40 hours per week for availability like they do with
aircraft. While contract hourly rates tend to be higher than GS, there are
a couple of factors that might make them closer:
- Taps: How much money does the average USFS IHC contribute to
the region/forest/district? Lots more than is justified by the
services received. Contract crew funding would not be as vulnerable to
the pigs at the trough.
- Double Dipping: Congress is currently funding fire at 100%
MEL, which should cover all fixed costs. The practice of charging base
8s to P-codes when they have been covered by a congressional
appropriation is questionable. What is the actual cost of an IHC when
you have your fixed costs covered two different ways.
I would hate to see a contract IHC (based just on tradition) but I would
have a hard time arguing against one with what is going on today.
6 |
| 11/17 |
Regarding Fire on the Mountain, the John Maclean and History
Channel Docu-drama:
(Sorry for the delay, I had to re-read the book and John, I apologize in
advance for speaking of you as though you aren't here.)
First, Pyrodactyl, I don't think John is chasing his father's ghost.
Rather I think he tapped into the father-son fire metaphor to humanize the
Storm King tragedy - to bring it to the gut level of "family"
while linking it at another level to similar events at Mann Gulch. In the
docu-drama he transformed the story from a purely "factual" one
to a more multidimensional thinking/ feeling/ expressing human one. This
time around, he's managed to tell the story as though from within the fire
family, something that was missing from Fire on the Mountain, in my
opinion.
Think about it. Understanding this tragedy through and through is so
much more than "the firefighters and smokejumpers were here and the
fire did this and they moved here". It is all so much more than
"the ATs were held on the ground here because of politics there"
or "this was the red flag weather story but the firefighters never
got it". It is even more than about firefighters who should have but
didn't follow the "10 and 18". Sure, this story is about the
logistics of who did or didn't do what and when and why; it is about the
"lessons learned" and what goes wrong in the "fog of
war"; but those are just the initial steps to seeing the more
complete, complex tragedy.
I think that in the process of walking us through his story of
investigative discovery as John did, he revealed his own process of coming
to more deeply understand the tragedy, as would a member of the wildland
fire family. He also let the viewers understand it more as firefighters
do. In my opinion, the depth of his understanding today far exceeds that
demonstrated in his book (but hey, we all learn day by day, don't we?).
As in his book, John begins the docu-drama by telling us what happened
first in his researching chronology and what that led to next and so on.
But his story as told now goes beyond that book telling. This one reminds
me of Faulkner's style and created in me the same kind of tension and
circular revelation. I'd have to describe it as edgy. I kept
waiting for the POINTS to be definitively made, the BLAME to be laid, the
FINGER to be pointed as he did in the book. I kept waiting for the
"sides" to be established so I could choose one. As it turns
out, John didn't polarize, he just enlightened us to his own fluid and
developing perspective, in the end, more of a wildland firefighter's
perspective I think - a perspective that continued to evolve into a TRUER
story of Storm King than his book revealed.
Tim commented, "you get the feeling that he began to understand
that wildland fire suppression is more an art than a science". In
Art, it's true you must have the techniques, the basics, the training.
Beyond that, Art is involved with feeling. By letting his own story of
discovery unfold - complete with feeling and links to family - John did a
wonderful, healing thing: he let us (at least me) suspend judgment to some
degree. He spoke with firefighters and let us see ourselves
"feeling" the tragedy within our family. If the response of my
at-home family was any indicator, I'd say he came as close as I have seen
to sharing the heart of the wildland firefighter community with non-fire
viewers. Not an easy thing to do.
Within the first 15 minutes of the History Channel piece, John
mentioned groundpounder violation of the 10 and 18. Toward the end, he
further described that crew leaders and firefighters were partially
responsible for the tragedy. As in no other profession, wildland
firefighters have to believe that each of us is responsible for our own
safety and, thus, also for our own tragedy. If we don't live that belief,
we let down our "guard" in a critical moment and safety is
compromised as it was on Storm King in '94.
My suggestion: If you haven't already done it, read the book, view the
video... See what you think.
Mellie |
| 11/16 |
Not so new CDF wife. Don't believe most of what you hear in CDF is the
first piece of advice I can give. We have critical rates of spread on
rumors, most of which are unfounded.
Foresters do hold positions on CDF Incident Commands Teams (ICT's)
These positions are based upon your fireline qualifications. The four
party agreement states that the USFS will recognize CDF's certs,
qualifications and standards. Since we do not use the redcard system. A
great many CDF personnel are proponents for the USFS taskbook and use them
as a great documentation tool for certification.
Having said that do we put unqualified people on ICTs? Yes! Does the
USFS? Yes. As with most large fire service organizations no matter how
well you try to keep your standards there are just too many ways to
circumvent the system. USFS teams are greatly respected in CDF. They have
a better depth of personnel in key positions than CDF teams.
I qualify this statement by having worked on both USFS and CDF teams.
Interestingly enough CDF teams are considered Type II by the USFS. However
CDF considers them to be Type I. This due to a class in Marana that we do
not attend. (the title skips my mind at this time) Out of State travel for
CDF is like pulling teeth.
On a side note I think it will be interesting in the upcoming months
for CDF due the Billions and Billions (Carl Sagan) of dollars that we are
in debt. What the Governor is going to cut is the question and how much of
a hit CDF is going to take. We have heard (again a rumor with just a rapid
rate of spread) that we are not considered an essential State service like
CHP so we are on the chopping block like everyone else. Should be
interesting..
Hope this answered your question and welcome to you and your family to
CDF. We have some bumps but overall its a great organization to be a part
of.
Jake |
| 11/16 |
Is it true that foresters with no fire experience working for CDF can be
on CDF's Incident Management Teams in a fire supervisory capacity? I hope
not. Maybe I overheard that wrong. Anyone know? What are the standards?
I know CDF and R5 FS teams no longer have meetings together in the spring.
Can anyone tell me why? Is it disagreements over the quals? What are the
politics of these interagency relationships with respect to the management
teams? This would be impossible in the FS because of the rules and regs of
Redcarding, right?
Not so new CDF wife
(For someone who asked a while ago which part is "new": My
husband, formerly USFS, got a full time position with CDF that started
last summer; I was "New CDF" wife then and I'm "not so
new" now. Emphasis on the CDF. CDF is still an unknown quantity for
me.) |
| 11/16 |
Oh Wise, All Knowing, All Seeing Abs,
A photo from our 2002 "We Were There" Gallery.
At times, this fire season seemed like Groundhog Day. It just kept going
on and on and on. Needless to say, there weren't too many grumbles when we
demobed the day after this picture was taken. Come to think of it, it's
like ski season. In November, you can't wait to hit the slopes. In April,
you may dutifully trudge up to the lift for a little late season action,
but the passion is about spent.
Sign me,
Arctic Amos
I put it on the Engine 5
photo page as "Season's Over". Let's hope it is in the Northern
West. Thanks. Ab. |
| 11/16 |
Tom from AG,
As you well know the quandary regarding what to call a crew that IA's
fires with their primary mode of transportation being a helicopter has
been around since at least the late 70's in the Forest Service.
In 1978 I worked on the San Marcos (528) "Flight Crew." The
Flight Crew consisted of a ten person crew whose primary duties were of a
handcrew. The entire module also consisted of a five person
"helitack" crew whose primary duties were to set up the water
point and helibase. All personnel were cross trained though and used in
both capacities as the incident warranted.
1981, 1982 and 1987 found me on the Arroyo Grande Module (527). Pretty
much the same setup as above with 528 except the handcrew part of the
module was called "Helishots" though sometimes we were referred
to as "Fly or Flight Crew." The "Helitack" side of the
module was 5 per day effective.
My suggestions:
- Designate the name "Helishot" to any crew attached to a
helicopter whose primary mission is that of a handcrew and meets the
criteria in the "Helishot Ops Guide" (ToBeDetermined)
- Develop a separate Ops Guide for "helishot" crews that
would include staffing levels, training and quals (need to add
aviation training and quals for the extremely important cross train
part of the module!)
- Educate our Incident Managers on the staffing level differences
currently out there on different Helicopter Modules.
- Fight the fire in any capacity required (given qualifications) no
matter whether you call yourselves Fly Crew, Flight Crew, Helishot,
Helitack, Hotshot, Engine Module, RHC, IHC, Type 1, Type 2 IA, etc,
etc, etc
Tally Ho
Killer |
| 11/15 |
The Jobs, wildland
firefighter Series 462
and 455 pages were
updated yesterday.
With holiday shopping approaching, let me plug our banners/sponsors, the Classifieds
page and our Amazon link on the Books page.
If you need anything, please consider shopping there first.
Ab. |
| 11/15 |
Curious,
Good points and no disrespect taken. You ask "should the crews who
only fly with 6-8 be called Helishots or Flightcrew?"
My question exactly, the only difference between us and any other
flight crews should be limited to personnel numbers, not capabilities. The
final "name", though not really that important, would help in
the current identity crisis.
"What is the difference between Helishot, Flightcrew, or
Flycrew?" none that I know of, as far as I know, "helishot"
is just a nickname. Flycrew is the only true ICS name out there. Flight
crew is just easier to say.
My suggestions:
- Review all flycrews based on the standards set by the Hotshot
Operations Guide.
- Decide what the crews will be called, Helishot, Flycrew, Flightcrew
or ??
- Incident RESL, Plans, Ops, AirOps and IC's, know we are there and
use us for line assignments..
- Hold Air Ops, Helibase Mgrs and Helicopter Superintendents
accountable for not utilizing highly trained and motivated
firefighters for line assignments
Thanks for your time,
Tom from AG |
| 11/15 |
Courtney's copter photo is C510 out of Chester, I believe. If one of the
Chester folks looks at the picture they'll be able to confirm it. I recall
I had C202, C205, along with C510 (C506 was on assignment). Four
airtankers
(94,84,20,18) and a Lead finished the mix. The fire was held to about 20
acres in an interface area of two acre parcels with Gray pine, manzanita,
and grass fuel. Turn arounds from Redding AAB were about 10 minutes. It's
always fun when a plan comes together!
JW |
| 11/15 |
Tom from AG,
You make some good points, after all who wants up to 32 people sitting at
Helibase when there is a fire to fight. In my opinion AG is a different
animal when it comes to typing Flightcrews.
My question is (with no disrespect) should the crews who only fly with 6-8
be called Helishots or Flightcrew? There is alot to the issue. Should AG
be singled out because of the size of the crew and the Type I status that
was gained last year? What is the difference between Helishot, Flightcrew,
or Flycrew? Should they all be the same instead of calling one Helishot or
the other Flightcrew due to the size and qualifications of the crew? Do
you not agree that these questions should be raised?
I hope everybody who flies into an incident comes there to work and
contribute if they have 32, 21, 7, or 4 person crews. Alot to think about
and discuss on the issue. Who knows, after the issue is resolved MEL will
probably run out in a couple of more years and everybody will go back to
business as usual, having a 7 person Flightcrew with a 212.
Curious |
| 11/15 |
Re: Type 4 & 5 engines and FUM's
Matt-
Type 4 engines are to the greater Western states what the Type 3's are to
California. In my limited knowledge they a predominantly BLM
configuration, with some state forestry and contractors using them as
well. S&S Fire is the current low bid manufacturer for DOI.
Type 5's seem to be on the way out. (anyone with better knowledge is
welcome to correct me on this) With advent of the Ford F-450/550 Super
Duty chassis, some contractors are making Type 4s that have the
maneuverability of a Type 6. So given the same basic vehicle size, but 500
(?) gallon increase from a type 6, what would you want on your fire?
On the FUM's, the all but one (Buffalo River) are permanent crews...
• One GS-7 PFT Module Leader
• One GS-6 PFT Assistant Module Leader
• Two GS-5 PSE Module Members funded for 18 pay periods per fiscal year
• Three GS-5 PSE Module Members funded for 13 pay periods per fiscal
year
Hope this helps.
RxFire |
| 11/15 |
On Wednesday, November 13, '02 Brianne Craig was involved in a fatal car
crash just outside of Baker City Oregon. She had been a firefighter for 2
years and was looking forward to her 3rd. She enjoyed the outdoors and was
a spectacular person too be around. She is survived by her parents and a
brother and sister. We all will miss you Brianne.
Friends Forever
Our thoughts and prayers are with you, her other friends and family.
Please Be Safe All whether in your car or on the fireline. Ab. |
| 11/14 |
Ab
Long time lurker, first time writer. Who has alot of questions to ask
and a few comments to add.
I'm from the Northeast (US), I'm a crew boss on a state Type 2 &
2IA crew. The crew make up is a mixture state workers from forestry and
parks (who have in state wildfire duties and most of the leadership
positions within the crew.) and crew members from other disciplines within
the environmental division of the state government. We also rely on
volunteer and paid city structural firefighters to supplement our crew.
All of these positions are volunteer and no one is required to maintain
crew status. We usually have about one hundred crew members too choice
from, with usually only 50 available. The crew Always gets good
evaluations and we have never had a major injury, and never sent anyone
home or had a discipline problem. The mixture makes for a good crew!
We (operations team) are in the process of developing a evaluation form
for individual crew members. We have been able to "get by" to
this point, but we need better standards and control for the safety of
all. My question for all is there a standard individual evaluation form
out there (most of what I've seen is for single resources), would a
simplified version be better especially in the litigious friendly east.
Also the state people have to worry about non-fire supervisors at their
home unit who would find a way to have access to these evaluations.
Finally a small sampling of other state crews, shows that most just use a
verbal evaluation through out and at the end of the assignment. Any help
would be appreciated.
I sent along one of my pictures from the Chediski fire this summer, a
column and bomber on division S, 6\28\02
Thanks Ab for the excellent site
NortheastCWB
Welcome and you're welcome. The Community makes it special. Thanks
for the photo. It's on the Fire 14
photo page. Ab. |
| 11/14 |
Hi RD,
I'm trying to figure out, how do I submit a proposal? I've tried the link
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/news_info/latest_news.html
and tried the links for
the pdf and doc files.. I've tried these links from work and home.. they
don't seem to work?
Is there a problem?
SoCalCapt |
| 11/14 |
In addition to the photos and messages above and below, we got a
bunch of photos of the Wolf Fire from LB. Many of these are posted on the Fire
13 photo page, but I also posted some on AirTankers
6, Engines 5, Handcrew
6 photo pages. Check em out. Thanks LB.
On the Handcrew 6: There's a
photo of FFs holding the road on the Wolf Fire and several interesting
photos of firefighters from Bolivia. A Bolivian Search and Rescue crew
sent in those photos. You can find a link to their site by going to the
photo description page. The second photo they named Gus and Bad Boy (in
Spanish). Sounds like they have humor. There was no other description.
Several weeks ago they send in some logos. I posted the fire logo
(Bomberos Bolivia) on the Logo 5
page.
When you're on Fire 13, check
out the Elkbath - Then and Now photo. I didn't draw attention to it when I
posted it. It is interesting to see what comes back.
On the Engine 5 photo page, I
need some help with identifying the BLM Crew. It's the one entitled
"Who is this?" The photo was entitled booth_hotshots. It came in
more than a year ago, I think -- when I was on the road. When I got home,
the info that came with it was gone. On thinkin' about it, I just gott'a
say that I don't see a hotshot crew, just a bunch of engine slugs. Notice
the variety of hat designs. It ain't no hotshot crew. It's a bunch of
engine slugs from different crews standing together. If they were
hotshots, there wouldn't be ANY engines in the background.
Ab. |
| 11/14 |
From the AG Flight Crew Guys:
Pines Burnout: Firing operations during the Pines fire, you can see the
crew in the SW 1/4 of the picture to get an idea of the flame heights.
Birch: Intense burning in Pinyon/Juniper fuels, Taken on the Birch
Fire, Inyo NF.
Thanks, some remarkable flame lengths there. I put them on the AG
Flight Crew page. Ab. |
| 11/14 |
Ab,
I was noticing that your picture gallery does not have too many
pictures of helicopters actually dumping on fires. I thought that maybe
you would like to post this one because I think it is a pretty good
picture. (I also attached it on this message.)
This picture was taken at a CDF fire in Redding, CA, (the Swasey Fire).
Pretty fast, exciting little fire!!! I'm not all to sure which copter this
is; could possibly be CDF out of Vina, CA.
Courtney
Thanks Courtney, bucket drops are welcome. It's up on the Helicopter
8 photo page. Ab. |
| 11/14 |
Ab, Some photos for the page:
Cannon: Cannon Fire, Walker, California, June 17-21, 2002 The darker
smoke middle-right is the column from the crash of T130 - this was taken
just 3 minutes after the crash.
Rogue River HS (Cannon2): Cannon Fire, Walker, CA Jun 17-21, 2002,
Rogue River crew buggy with a view
Bill
Thanks Bill. I put them up on the Fire
14 and the Equipment 4 photo
pages.
(These aren't Bills photos, but is that piece of equipment called Firetank
[from the Biscuit Fire] one of Northtree's monsters? If not, then whose?)
Ab. |
| 11/14 |
If you haven't seen it, take a look at the new Wolf Fire pic on the wildlandfire.com
home page. Thanks to the LP guys who sent it in. Ab. |
| 11/14 |
Ab,
Here's a good fire aviation survivor story from 1962 (saw the link
posted on the AT website) for those needing a good historical read:
| |