Conair, a company based in Abbottsford B.C. Canada, has numerous Fire Cats on contract to the Canadian Government. They bought up excess US Navy S-2 Trackers and modified them as retardant ships. The modifications were so great that (or I am told) they are no longer considered the same ship as the Tracker. Last time I was at the airport they still had about 50 plus Trackers in a storage yard on the east side of the runway, near the retardant base, still in Navy gray and with wings folded up, just like they were parked on a Carrier.

When we order mud and the Fire Cats are sent, they come in groups of three, they do not hold as much as a DC 6-7-8 or P-3, but three ship have an equivalent amount of retardant as one of the big ships. The ship are amazing, they have so much power they can put mud in places where the big ship will not dare to go.

Hope this helps.
WP

If a person is open and honest in taking the health screening, it eliminates 90%+ of the risk. And staying/getting in shape for the test should eliminate most other risks. Yeah, there are folks that have a genetic inclination to a heart attack or other serious health risk, and (a) don't know it; and (b) wouldn't show up in most physical exams.

On the other hand, I hope that we can all support the concept of testing folks before we send us/them out on a wildfire assignment. And personally, if I'm gonna throw a heart attack, I'd rather it be in the controlled environment of a Pack Test site than on some of the God-awful places on the side of a mountain in the dark of night where I occasionally end up during a normal fire season.

So, what are the reasonable, practical, economic, and efficient alternatives to insuring that we have a fit firefighting force in the wildland.....?

Mollysboy

MB

Put it on the Miscellaneous 2 photo page. Ab.

Dear sir,
I am looking for informations about the gumman CS2F firecat and links with potential sellers

If you can help me I will realy appreciate

In the expectation of your reply,
best regards
Gabriel Kaeppelin

Ab would be happy to forward a message.

Idaho Department of Lands Type 6.
AS

Put it on Engines 5 photo page. Ab.

Put it on the Logo 8 page. Nice one. Ab.

But having the 10 "memorized" doesn't mean you understand and can use them. Ab.

haw haw. Ab.

I would ask the Head Park Ranger to give you a letter that says "Wildland Firefigter" or 025 series are in fact "Inherently governmental". Federal DOD Firefighters have tried to seek legislative action to include their positions. Military Base's across the nation downsized and gave their firefighters the boot. BRAC did a great job of pushing "outsourcing/contracting" to local Fire Departments. Some Feds ended up with jobs by their State legislators passing IAFF legislation to allow Federal Firefighters to fill jobs before the job was filled by recruitment. FWFSA has been looking for a Dept of Interior or Agriculture Fire position that is "Inherently governmental", NO SUCH beast exists! Contracting out is the Republican way, Forest Service employee's are the "low hanging fruits" that need to be picked? Interesting stuff if you're a Republican. OF COURSE........ "THEY SAID" is not a place you want to go into political party stuff? If you know of a position in the Park Service, (FIRE) that is inherent by position, please share. Only the Law Enforcement group is covered.

Niedermeyer

Any suggestions?
Thanks - Firetool

FWFSA rep's (or myself) will be on chat tonight Thursday after 7 pm
(Pacific) to answer questions and to garner support for Wildland Fire
Service Issues.

FWFSA_SoCal

r.e. Craig Goddel's " Better way, Fire orders"
We have already gone back to the Original 10 Standards. This is how we learned it when I started, I never bothered to "re-learn" the FIRE ORDERS version. The new way just didn't make sense. Funny how the pendulum swings. Attached is a copy of the poster that we have in our training room. Feel free to use it.

sting

Leo Jarzomb
San Gabriel Valley Newspaper Group
1210 Azusa Canyon Rd.
West Covina CA 91790
leo.jarzomb@sgvn.com
800-788-7578 ext 2121

He took it on Sept 4, '02 on the Curve Fire.

One who was there

Abs,

caught part of an interview on morning tv with a Hotshot by the name of
Beebee (?). They seem to have been sent to Victoria to help with the high
country fires there. With the forecast weather I'm sure they're going to be
in the very deep end first day.

For those that are thinking of coming, I suggest you have a read of the
report by one of the blokes that went with the first deployment from Oz to
US so you can get a look in to what differences there are. Download from
http://nrfa.fire.org.nz/publications/misc/ANZ_USA/.

cheers
OB

Need to ask Leo for permission to use his close-up of federal air tanker that's posted on airtanker 6 on wildlandfire.com.

We are a newly-formed non-profit group that's working to save the CDF Ukiah Air Attack base. Please contact me at sweeney@pacific.net or pager (707) 468 2223.

Mike Sweeney

Safety Gram, 2002

GW

Thanks. Ab.

Glad you like it. Nice work on the part of one of the Abs to get the new version of RALF up and running. Working on this site takes lots of time and it's nice to have help. Check out the new Smiley faces and experience the new RALF chat. www.wildlandfire.com/smiley_info.htm. Original Ab deserves a round of applause. clap clap Clap CLAP CLAP. Thanks Original! You're the BEST.

Not the Original.

Oh yeah the jobs page and Series 462 and 455 are updated.

Ab.

There's a picture of ordinance on the fireground on http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/misc/misc.htm. It's Stu's and it's called hazard. Some FF were talking about the dangers of firefighting near a "hot area" the other night on chat. Maybe one of them has a photo or two.

Todd

Todd and MG, someone wrot in that you really mean ordnance not ordinance. Har. Let's see if I get "corrected". Ab.

Childs gives "government" and G-dub a bad name. Well maybe having them spell it out is better than if they glossed over it. At least we know their true thinking. Doesn't bode well.

(Ab, this is a tame commentary, You should see the one I wrote the first time around.)

Tahoe Terrie

National Park Service, Office of the Director
To All Employees

Since April 2002, when plans were announced to begin cost-comparison studies associated with the Administration's competitive sourcing initiative, I have made it a priority to keep National Park Service employees informed about our agency's competitive sourcing plans.

National Park Service employees are very passionate about their jobs, and have a well-deserved reputation for providing outstanding public service. As director of this agency, I am confident the jobs being studied will continue to be performed by our employees. At every opportunity, I commend your outstanding work to Interior and White House officials.

Imagine my distress at reading an article with the headline "70% of Jobs in Park Service Marked Ripe for Privatizing" in the January 26 edition of the L.A. Times, which also appeared in many other newspapers across the country.

The article said that Interior Secretary Gale Norton has earmarked 11,807 full-time positions for privatization. That statement is not true. That number, which is now 11,524, comes from the FAIR (Federal Activities Inventory Reform) Act Inventory of 2002. The FAIR Act requires each agency to identify a list of commercial functions it performs that are not inherently governmental. The agency does not have to compete every function, however, and with the Secretary's approval, the National Park Service has identified 1,700 positions to be studied through FY 2003 and FY 2004. A figure of 70% has never been used as a measuring stick for privatizing National Park Service jobs or will it be. Nor will our ranger ranks, those in the 025 series, as implied in the article, be among the positions studied for competitive sourcing.

A letter to the editor is now being prepared to bring attention to the misleading information and factual errors in the article, and should be sent to the L.A. Times within the next couple of days.

Again, let me emphasize how much your dedication and outstanding public service is appreciated not only by me but also Secretary Norton and President Bush. I promise to keep you informed of any new developments in the competitive sourcing process, and urge you to check InsideNPS, our intranet website, under competitive sourcing for updates.

Fran Mainella
Director, National Park Service

I have my passport. Ab.

This paper was forwarded to us by TC and DF and posted with the permission of Craig Goddell, the author. Some good suggesting for maintaining situational awareness in a changing fire environment and good points regarding potential conflict between some of the fire orders and the "Situations That Shout Watch Out".

Craig's paper is presented as a 188K pdf file. There's a "dynamic model" of thinking through the fire orders on page 3. You all know how we rag on pdf format, not this time. If you need Adobe Acrobat Reader to access the pdf, you can get Acrobat Reader here. It's free.

Click here to download Craig's "Better Way" Fire Orders (pdf). We're also posting links to it on the Documents Worth Reading page and on the Site Map page, where you can also access Karl Brauneis' Original Intent Ten Standard Fire Orders. It's interesting to see how Craig built on those.

Happy reading.
Ab.

PS. K just sent in a photo (gif) of the page 3 model.

FW: RACE AGAINST TIME FOR THOUSANDS OF FIREFIGHTERS Volunteer firefighters from the NSW Rural Fire Service will be racing against time to build and consolidate containment lines around bushfires across the State before the onset of expected bad bushfire weather conditions on Wednesday and Thursday.

While we have taken the opportunity to stand down some of our firefighters for much needed rest, the more than one thousand firefighters who remain in the field, particularly in southern NSW, are racing to rebuild containment lines around bushfires, said NSW Rural Fire Service Assistant Commissioner Operations Shane Fitzsimmons.

While the weekend displayed how effectively our containment plans worked and the readiness and capability of our firefighters against tough fire weather conditions, we nevertheless witnessed the bushfires in the southern part of NSW break through many of our containment lines.

With close to half a million hectares (1,235,525 acres) having been burnt out in the area between the Yass district and through the Snowy Mountains to the Victorian border, our work is still cut out for us to contain these fires. The weather on Wednesday and Thursday is expected to be very hot, dry and windy and this will again see these fires flare up.

Our crews will be using the next 24 hours to backburn and we will also be deploying around 50 heavy bulldozers and graders to help cut new containment lines.

We must recognise the ongoing efforts of our volunteers. Today marks the 124th day of continuous declarations of "bushfire emergencies" under s44 of the Rural Fires Act. This has been our most protracted bush firefighting season on record and highlights the effect that the drought is having on fire behaviour. We should also applaud those employers who have continued to allow our volunteers leave from their jobs, as well as those self-employed volunteers who have put their businesses on hold to go off and fight fires across the State, said Asst. Commissioner Fitzsimmons.

We're keeping you all in mind. Remember that no property, forest or home is worth a life. Be Safe. Ab.

I just finished reading all the scuttle about pack tests, IHCs and the American Firefighting Crew on its way to Australia. The crew to Australia is not a rumor. My IHC Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent from the Zuni IHC are amongst those fortunate enough to make this trip. There are also Smokejumpers in the mix and a few folks from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service fire management program as well. (Yes, fins and feathers has a well trained and highly qualified fire management program.) They will be broken up into four groups of five personnel and manning engines. I don't know about the other folks but the assistant superintendent from Zuni is also a former and still current Engine Boss or Captain of Foreman depending who or which agency you may work under. The superintendent is an ICT3. Who knows why the powers that be decided to send the people that were chosen instead of currently active engine crews. Personally I felt they should have sent hotshot crews and engine crews. The folks from "down under" came to our aide last summer and I would like to send them more than the people we are sending.

In any case, we are sending a good mix of professional wildland firefighters. Who knows, maybe this will serve to open the door for more of us to go help out. In case anyone is interested, the Zuni IHC Superintendent's name is Carl Crawford of the Blackfeet Nation and the Assistant Superintendent's name is Troy Cachini of the Zuni Tribe. Our prayers and hopes for a safe return goes with every member of the American Firefighting Crew and are extended to our friends from "down under" that they all weather out the fire storms safely.

I wanted to mention that the Southwest is in as bad if not worse shape right now as we were this time last year. The snow pack is non-existent and we are having mid to late spring like weather. I fear that the Rodeo-Chediski fire was just a warm-up for things to come. We are already experiencing moderate fire danger on the Zuni Reservation and the indices are moving up rapidly. The fire season is shaping up to be another long, tiring and dangerous one. Everyone be safe and remember, they haven't grown one tree that is worth singing the hair on our wildland firefighters.

Cheers,
They lite-em, We fight-em (alias, Zuni FMO)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments on federal employees and the Competitive Sourcing Initiative

Excerpts from David C. Childs, Commercial Activities & Privatization Manager, Office of Management & Budget speeches, Jan. 17, 2002; Nov., 2002, Washington, DC, Reno, NV

• There is not a government employee performing at the industry standard rates.
• 850,000 government employees are doing work that could or should be done by the private sector.
• Expected only about 105,000 of these government jobs to be lost.
• We don't care who does the work.
• It is not going to be easy to retain in-house government services.
• We don't want to penalize federal employees for past inefficiencies.
• Federal employees will sell their souls.
• Forest Service employees are "LOW HANGING FRUIT" that need to be removed.
• If a Forest Service employee is working a couple months on fire, that means that his other Forest Service job is not needed.
• This is a reaction to chronic poor performance of government and continuing disclosure of intolerable waste.
• If there is a contractor somewhere, anywhere doing the work, it is not inherently governmental.
• This renewed emphasis [on Competitive Sourcing] is really nothing new.
• Due to the intensive downsizing of the previous administration, the workforce is aging and 50% of government employees will retire in 4-10 years. We have to do this competitive sourcing NOW or we may not be able to accomplish our goals due to the shrinking workforce.
• Determining what jobs are inherently governmental is not inherently governmental.
• Determining the Most Efficient Organization (MEO) is not inherently governmental.
• If federal agencies don't fully implement the administrations goals, we [OMB] will cut their budget accordingly. The Corp of Engineers is an example in how they didn't buy into the outsourcing last year so we [OMB] slashed their budget. [He neglected to say that Congress later restored all of their funding.]
• This is not about the reduction of federal jobs or budget cuts, nor about "privatization", but rather about finding the right kind of jobs.
• If government jobs were contracted out, that would not necessarily mean that government workers would lose their jobs.
• Competition is the best way to reduce government costs and improve accountability.

Try the old chat room - hit the chat button in the header. I can't get the link to the new one to work. Ab.

• The first picture was on the way into Oregon, but you can probably figure that out by looking at it. We took the scenic route from Medford, OR, to CA, and back to Gold Beach, OR.
• The second is our crew w/ STLs crossing the Chetco River near Wilderness Retreat.
• The third is of us putting up sprinklers on the Chetco River Inn. A beautiful place with great hosts, good snacks, and a Scottish terrier named Maggie!
• These next 3 photos give an idea of the topography (bloody steep in some places!) and fuels.
• Here's one that shows the smoke from the fire over the Pacific Ocean.
• A nice job with the Christmas lights above the Brookings camp!

GreatWhiteNorth

Thanks GreatWhiteNorth for being patient while we got these up. We have some more photos on a bit of a backlog but we are working on them. We put these up on the Biscuit Fire page at the bottom. Ab.

doc brown

5 saws for historical value, 3 saws for an easy read, avg it to 4 saws if you like.

Cap'n Kirk

Nice review, Cap'n. We put it up on the Book Reviews page. Ab.

The Meat

I believe the case you are referring to involved the British Columbia Forest Service. Fitness tests vary from province to province across the country. As I heard it, the 'old' test that she first passed _was_ the pack test. The test that the BCFS had switched to was the shuttle run or beep test. It was the new beep test that she was not able to pass. I'm not sure what the level for a 'pass' was, but for Alberta Type I-Helitack Support and Type I-Rapattack crews, you need a minimum of level 10. Ontario's minimum is level 6. So I've been led to believe that the BCFS has scrapped the beep test and gone back to the pack test.

In case some are not familiar with the beep test, here's a description of Alberta's fitness requirements (3 parts):

1 metre = 3.3 feet

Physical Fitness

Applicants selected must successfully complete a physical fitness test consisting of three phases. Applicants will be interviewed after the physical fitness test and if selected, will be sent to the training course and may be accepted to the program. Members of the HS are tested throughout the season and must be able to meet the following minimum physical fitness standards at all times. Failure to do so will result in the member being released from the program. A 20-minute rest is allowed between phases.

Shuttle Run: the runner completes a minimum of 90, 20-metre runs back and forth, or 1800 metres (1.1 miles) at pre-determined beeps starting at 8.2 seconds per 20 metres and progressing faster throughout the 1800 metres.

Upright Row: in a standing position, back against the wall, knees slightly bent, and hands placed shoulder width apart on the bar, lift a 23-kg (51 lb.) barbell to chest height. The metronome will be set at 40 beats per minute or 20 lifts per minute. The standard is 18 repetitions per minute.

Pump/Hose/Carry/Drag: which must be completed in under four minutes and ten seconds. The timer starts when the pump is placed on the ground. For safety purposes, this phase of the test must be performed wearing a hard hat, coveralls, and work boots.

Start by carrying 30-kg (65-lb) Mark III pump 100 metres without stopping - 50 metres out and back. Next pick up four 30-metre (100 ft) lengths of 1.5-inch hose, (31 kg/68 lbs.), putting it over the shoulders and carrying it a distance of 300 metres - 75 metres out and back twice. Upon completion of the above, pick up a charged length of 1.5-inch hose and drag it 50 metres out and back twice for a total of 200 metres. Hose lengths must be pulled over the shoulder with one hand and grasped behind the back with the opposite hand to pass this test.

cheers,
GreatWhiteNorth

Jr. here, I worked on Vandenberg's crew for several years, they do become unavailable during missile launches and other important military missions. All members of the crew are civilian, with an occasional airmen to supplement their numbers. They are under the 0081 series and are paid portal to portal when they leave for a fire. They have a mutual aid agreement with SBCO and Los Padres NF. for initial attack responses. You will only see them in South Zone though, the base commander would never let us leave for calls to other regions and North Zone. They have the same requirements as a IHC and have close ties with LP hotshots overhead. Let me know if you have any other questions I will be glad to answer them.

Jr. Vandenberg Fire

One of the Abs did a lot of research and created a new and updated chat. RALF chat did give some problems. We now have a new and updated version.

www.wildlandfire.com/cgi-bin/chat.cgi

We've been testing it out among ourselves and want to announce a community test of the new system after the Superbowl tonight, maybe about 2000 hours. If you can find someone to chat with before then, feel free to do so. You'll have to reenter your moniker and password. If you have any feedback for us on how it works or anything else, we'd appreciate hearing it.

It appears to this Ab that the system is much less jerky and has some other great new features. Of course it will be interesting to see how it "flows" with more people on it.

Be there or be square!

Ab.

-blackliner
Vandenberg has been around for a number of years, I'm not really sure how they fit into the larger picture, they do get made unavailable when Vandenberg starts firing rockets though and I believe they are restricted to the state of California, but as with my previous posting I don't know where the rumor begins and the truth ends. I've worked with them about 1/2 dozen times, and they seem to be a good crew, they've got a set of rather distinctive 4x4 navy blue buggys which makes them quite visible in camp or at the drop point if they are on your division.

Don't forget BIA either, I've worked with Geronimo and Fort Apache on numerous occasions and was quite pleased when I got them when I was IC, I found them to be the least whiny about their assignment of any IHC I've worked with. I don't know of any other BIA Hotshots though.

Pack test
I find it interesting that the Canadian Court thinks aerobic capacity can not be increased, I thought that was why we ran, I'm going to have to print out that finding and use it as proof that the chief needs to buy us donuts instead of sending us to the gym, the gym is just his little way of torturing us, I always knew I shouldn't trust health fanatics. I'll admit there are a handful of people who have been displaced by the pack test that can still perform their job but I have never found the pack test that difficult and am in pretty sorry shape for firefighting, My line pack ran around 35-40 lbs as do many, I don't see how the argument that carrying a pack roughly the same weight as gear carried in the job over flat ground discriminates, the ground on fires is rarely flat and the equipment does not carry its self, should we have to mark employees with weight restrictions so I don't accidentally hand a bladderbag to a crew person that only passed the 35lb pack test? The old test was a joke, I have never been able to do the 11 1/2 minute run but have out hiked those who can, and the step test was a bad joke, the best score I ever saw was a 40 year old fat smoker who was always the tail end charlie on PTs and fires.

Model 62
There are 3 types of 62, the 62A, which looks like the older model 61, it is a regular cab and the crew sits in the front of the build up, the model 62B came out in the late 1990's and is a crew cab with bat wing hose covers and a hose reel on each side. The 62C came out in 2001, it looks similar to the 62B but only has one hose reel in the rear behind a roll up door and lower hose covers. Some others you may run across are the Model 42, 51, 60, and 61 although these are being phased out, there are very few model 51 and 60's still in use by the USFS. These are all R5 engines, the other regions have their own models.

Not the best shots on some of these for recognition but it will have to do.

Note that the cabs vary depending on which batch they came from, you will find the same models built on Fords, Internationals, GMC etc, also may be 2 or 4 wheel drive.

Model 42 - recognition factors, much smaller than the others, 3 person crew. Hose reel mounted top center. PTO pump.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng5/waters5.jpg

Model 51 - recognition factors, crew cab, build up sits on a flat bed, unlike the 60 which is built onto the vehicle chassis. Gasoline powered pump mounted in the rear, not PTO.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/fseng5.jpg

Model 60 - crew cab, build up part of the frame, 2 hose reels (one each side), looks very similar to the 62B but is older and does not have the aluminium batwing hose covers on top.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/fseng1.jpg

Model 61 - regular cab, crew sits in the front of the box like build up, two hose reels (1 each side mounted lower than the model 62A.Rear crew area is smaller than the 62A and has 1 1/2" intakes.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng5/helitack.jpg

Model 62A - regular cab, looks very similar to the 6 but the hose reels are mounted higher, the crew area is larger and it has a 2 1/2" intake.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/guest3.jpg

Model 62B - crew cab, looks very much like the 60 but newer, large batwing aluminum hose covers, 2 hose reals, large square compartment doors instead of long rectangular doors. Rear compartment has a double door arrangement.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/lpfeng.jpg

Model 62C - crew cab, looks similar to the 62B but only has one hose reel mounted in a roll up door at the rear, the aluminum hose covers are flat and lower, unlike the 62B's which rise up about 6-8".
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/peppermintca01.jpg

Hope this helps.
Fedfire

I find it somewhat humorous that anyone would find the pack test to be an unfair assesment of physical ability for wildland firefighting. I, and many of my colleagues, do not feel that it adequately represents how truly arduous this job can be. On a crew, engine or ship, the only physical requirement for being a member is passing the pack test (yeah, thanks OPM- jerks). The daily fitness program for a Hotshot crew is usually much harder than the test required to be there. Consequently, many people who think this job is for them pass the pack test, but cannot meet the same fitness level of the crew. Red flag here- NO ONE wants a crew member who cannot pull their own weight. A bad situation gets much worse when someone can't keep up...

Ideally, IHCs would be able to adopt the same fitness requirements as the jumper program, but that ain't gonna' happen- OPM won't let it happen. This job isn't for everyone. Period. Fire isn't easy, and getting a job shouldn't be either.

-blackliner

i was wondering if you or any one out there in the fire world would have pics of some model 62 engines. i am curious on what they look like, what is on them and so forth. i am possibly gonna transition from a helitack crew to a engine crew and that is what they are running. so curious if some one could post something with that. thanks

also be safe it is a new year, and things can change in a hurry!!!
heads up you all and god bless ya...

FIREMAN T

another J.W.

Vandenberg Air Force Base near Santa Barbara, CA has a Hotshot Crew (Vandenberg Hotshots). I'm not sure if they are 0462 or 0081 I've heard rumors of both along with they are / are not paid portal to portal. Not sure what the truth is on those issues.

Also Kern County Fire Department has a Hot Shot crew (Rio Bravo Hot Shots I believe), they claim to be the only non federal hotshot crew and as far as I know they are. The overhead are full time Kern County firefighters and the bulk of the crew are temps paid at the same rate as the federal GS scale.

Fedfire

Backburnfs

Firescribe

I have already submitted a nomination for Paul Gleason for the Stihl award from several of us here locally in Carlsbad NM. After working through Stihl's nomination process, I must suggest similar action for those of us who feel strongly about Paul receiving this well-deserved award. We should do separate nominations from our separate and many quarters.

I will be attending my FMO conference next week and will be lobbying strongly for several more nominations. I urge all of you interested in honoring this wildland firefighting hero to do the same.

This is the most deserving guy ever to hump a hill, train a troop, and keep folks safe in our business. Let's make it happen!

NMAirBear

Undoubtedly different people/groups know different aspects of Paul's life. For the details of the award and the nomination process click the banner at the top of theysaid. Ab.

About a week and a half ago I was sitting around talking with people who had just seen The Lord of the Rings for the first time. One of them said aloud, "I wish you could do that in real life- Travel around and have adventures in crazy places with a group of people like that. You know, like a little family. It sucks that you can't actually do that." A big grin flashed across my face. Au contrair, I told them, this is doable, very doable. I went on to explain the whole fire business to them and how this happens every summer.

Ya see Chip, wildland fire fighting requires a lot of travel, typically. Especially if you are on a 20 person handcrew, or hotshot crew. You spend your summer crashing around the country, fighting fires wherever they pop up. You may wake up in some god forsaken part of the Nevada desert one day, then be on your way to Yellowstone the next. And this goes on for months. The only constant is the people. Now, when TheySaiders talk about feeling like they're in a family, they ain't kidding. Because for better or worse, you are stuck with the same group of people all season. You work long, draining shifts, you don't get enough sleep- you get excited together, you get bored together, you get pissed off together, and you get drunk together. So after a while, you have real sense of who these people are, of how they behave when the chips are down and when the chips are up. You develop an intuitive, gut sense of what motivates each individual. Whether you like 'em or not, you know 'em. Now, that is family, that is closeness.

And a consequence of that is a real sense of belonging to the group, of being part of something. But it's not just that you are part of something random- you gotta earn it. Real membership doesn't start until you've proven yourself, until you've gone out on a fire assignment and showed everybody what you're made of. I think that the feeling of exclusivity is a big part of why people like to hold their head so high in this profession. Not everyone can hack it on the fireline or on a hard PT. At some point, I think that deep down inside, everyone feels weak, feels like failure is just a footstep away. You feel maxed out and you don't know if you can keep going. But it's a silent struggle, one that you battle with in the solitude of your own mind, but you don't quit, you keep going. Why? Because no one else is stopping. The socializing force of not wanting to fall out is extremely powerful. And the beauty of it is that you do go farther, harder, and faster than you probably ever would on your own. At least that's how I feel.

So when you come back from a kickass fire assignment and you're dirty, smelly, tired, hungry, and sore- well, actually at that point you don't care, all you wanna do is eat and sleep, or maybe check up on the local population of females. But at some point later on, when it's over and you're rested and fed enough to think about such things, you feel alive inside. I think Mike 'n Terrie had it right about Adrenaline being that part that gets in your blood. You feel strong, you feel like you actually just did something that was challenging and worthwhile, and you had the fortune to share the experience with your little rag-tag, adventuring family. And on that day, you walk out of the bar holding your head up high, proud to be part of something so ballsy and genuine.

-The Nomad

Handcrew: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/hand5/shots.jpg
Engine Crew: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/orosco2.jpg

CFA = Country Fire Authority, Australia

I am a lady firefighter and I 've done it for 4 seasons going on my 5th . What motivates me about doing what I do is the adrenaline (sure) but, theres alot more to it then that, I get fulfillment out of knowing I helped save someones house, or someones life, and helping to preserve the forests for future generations to enjoy.

hope to see you out there this coming season and be safe out there.

-AK-

You hit on another very good reason, Family!! I do not care if you fight wild land fires or building fires. I do not care if you work for a Paid fire Department, or you are a volunteer, you are a part of my family. A good example of this was on Sept. 9/11. I was at work with family when I heard that the tower came down, I never thought about the policeman, or the civilians. My thought was oh my god, I just lost a lot of brothers, and sisters. There was no question in my mind that said they were outside. when the tower came down. My family (all of) would be in the middle of the danger.

Be safe always
Mike

Good history in the Classification issue.

FWFSA is seeking the assistance of our Congressional contacts regarding Classification. Congressman John Doolittle will be asked to "Direct OPM" to work on our classification issues. Basically, OPM is swamped with the Classification of all those Homeland Security Agency people. Unless a ranking member of Congress request OPM to give us time. We might just wait until the Agency, " Agriculture & Interior Heads" put together a National Fire Plan.

We know the issues of classification, retention and pay benefits will be included in this National Fire Plan. (Its called outsourcing - Contracting.)
FWFSA has been at the Classification talks, first on our legislation is the Portal to Portal, second is Hazard Pay calculated toward retirement. The 108th Congressional session does in fact present opportunity to resolve our classification issues. DOD Firefighters are just now getting their positions checked, not to be finished until 2004. Call me a Wildland Firefighter, Forestry Tech, Park Ranger or Range Tech. Pay me Portal to Portal alongside those City/Local/State getting the same. The agencies do not want to give up the work force as Firefighters. I think that OPM can come up with a classification. Accomplishment of Resource and Fire Management objectives in a Wildland fire series. The agencies will not change the system now.

Legislation or Congressional oversight is needed. Interesting "They Said" postings of the past, alot of people dont want to change their classification. They enjoy going to fires when they are needed. Yes.......... "They Said" is a great place to have discussions about the History of Wildland firefighters. Thanks for the posting.

Niedermeyer

Megan Smaker is a 22 year old seasonal firefighter with CDF (SCU).
She is one of the three people who are thought to be kidnapped in
Panama while on her 3 months off. Last year she spent her time off
working to find landmines in Afghanistan.

Here are some articles about the current situation.
SacBee Article: www.sacbee.com
CNN: www.cnn.com

Please keep her and the others in your prayers.

AL

www.plumasnews.com/
TC2

After my first summer of fighting fire to earn money for school, it got "in the blood" for me, too. I went back to school that fall, changed my major to natural resources and have continued on working with the Feds. There's something about working physically hard at something worthwhile, setting goals and attaining them even if the fire might cross the line later, feeling like you are "family" with your crew and others you work so hard with. Ab, I agree, there's nothing like feeling you're helping.

Yeah, adrenalin too, guess that's one way to put it, having to be alert and aware for hours and days on end and sometimes having to decide and act quickly because your life or your crews lives might depend on it. Walking the swordblade without falling off. There were times after that first summer when I thought I was addicted. Holy guacamole, it was a relief to find out that others felt the same way. Addicted together.

There was a Joseph Campbell quote I once heard that said something like every person is in search of the thing that makes them feel especially alive (or something like that). I wish I had written it down. If anyone knows it, please share.

What exactly motivates me? Hard to say, I can't imagine life without fire, really being alive without fire. More than a job, more than a career. More like a calling.

Tahoe Terrie

Chip, there was a thread on theysaid about a year and a half ago entitled "Just one more time". You could check the archives. Firefighters who were retiring wrote in with the things they would like to see or do or experience just one more time before they retired from fire. You see, often firefighters don't know exactly which fire season will be their last. Ab.

This year the National Fire Plan Award was given to Matt Reidy (USFS-Oregon), George Chesley (USFS), Doug Ledgerwood, and Jeff Pendleton (USFS-Oregon) last week in New Orleans at the National Fire Plan meeting.

Here's some info on the award.

Four offices in Oregon, led by these four fire management officers,
blazed a unique path to meet their most efficient level, or MEL, target
for suppression resources by focusing first on local communities. They
each hired local contractors as part of their MEL organization to fill
staff positions on staff engines.

By using contractors, these forests not only ensured adequate fire
staffing, they added jobs to the local economy.

These fire management officers worked closely with their zone
contracting officers to identify specifications for the contracts and
the opportunity to use indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity
contracts. One of the greatest benefits of the contracts was that they
actually increased the capability of the forests as they responded to
initial attack, and they blended contract resources into daily work
assignments alongside agency personnel.

K

Abs,

Here are some pics of fire approaching homes at Canberra.

A series of the Parliament House at 1000, 1400 and 1500. This
is the equivalent of your Congressional Building. It's located in Canberra.

Also have had some pics sent thru to me by some in my Communications
Group who had the forward comms van in the Snowy Mountains area.

Once again it's heating up this weekend with 39 deg C (102 F) for Sat,
& 42 (106 F) for Sunday. You don't have to be nuts to do this job but
jeez it helps!!!!

Cheers
OB

Thanks OB. I put them on the Fire 16 photo page. Amazing how dark the sky got at the Parliament House by 3PM. What time of day were the other dark shots taken? Ab.

"I am simply not prepared to risk the lives of volunteer firefighters to save a home where the owner has failed to take even the most basic bushfire precautionary measures."

"Bushfires are a natural part of the Australian landscape, and if people want to live in the semi-urban areas then they have to be accountable for their own safety."

"They need to have done prevention work before a crisis occurs and not sit back, do nothing and expect the cavalry to come to the rescue at the last minute."

"People often die in bushfires because they panic at the last minute, throw the family photos in the car and speed off as flames are licking at the back door. That is too late to act rationally."

Talk about a real fire leader for the 21st century, either in Australia, the US, or many other parts of our world................!

Dick Mangan

Good sense of humor in spite of the tough times. Be Safe. Ab.

Here's another photo of a 212 making a drop on the Sadler fire, ELKO BLM, Nevada 1999. The spots on the photo are bits of crud kicked up from the drop. The helo passed very close to my position on the hill top and blew a lot of stuff into the air.

FedFire

Put it on Helicopters 9. Ab.

Very nice website! Here is a few additional photos for your site. I hope you like them and will use them on your site.

Al Hymers

Thanks Al for the Superscooper and Martin Mars photos. That you in the Scooper cockpit? I put them on the Airtankers 6 photo page. Readers, if you want a few more details, go to the photo description page. For those interested, there are more photos of these two ships on the Airtankers 2 photo page. Ab.

It would be a different world if Sept 11 had not happened. Ab.

I ditto Stu. You've got the cart before the horse. Before you go to much further, check out the contracting primer in the FAQ section. It's not going to be easy to find a QUALIFIED engine boss. You'll learn fast enough that there is more to successful fire contracting than having an engine in your driveway and waiting for the phone to ring.

Word on the street is that everyone from your Aunt Bessie to your old high school English teacher have bought a wildland engine to contract with....Especially in Region 6. Could be a very interesting summer for dispatchers and contract officers. They may need bodyguards before this is all over...

Good luck with your new endeavor.
Snake River Sparky

Finding quality crew and keeping them is the harder part of running an engine operation. Pay will range greatly from company to company, we pay 180-250 a day per person in wages + expenses. dont forget uncle sam. You need to get licensed in your state, get a DOT number for interstate business. Tax identification Number. You're going to have to get set up with the regions on the EERA (emergency equipment rental agreement) this isnt a guarantee of work, just an agreement to work your engine that the gov has already inspected for an agreed upon price.

If you're in R6 - good luck, there are already over 600 pieces of apparatus available. Being a single engine company will be difficult. True there will be less employment hassles, less paperwork and worries, but you are trying to run a business. If your engine is not equipped with loose inventory - nozzles, nomex, hand tools, etc. It will cost just shy of 8,500.00 for the minimum engine inventory. Ab can give you my email address if you need more info (abs are good about that ;)

Good luck - read snake river sparkys letter on the FAQs page. he is a professional writer and makes it much more clearer than i can.

ericPW

Oddie

Just received several Emails from friends in the Victoria and Tasmania fire services in Australia: the Sunday afternoon temps in Adelaide (South Australia) were 113F (45C), and Monday's fire weather in Victoria (Melbourne area), New South Wales (Sydney and surrounding area) and Tasmania is forecasted as "extreme".

The Volunteers are getting run ragged, and all for no pay, too!
Dick Mangan

www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/19/1042911271082.html

Concerned Citizen

Check out the Australia Fires category on the News page for many articles on the fires. You Aussies, Be SAFE. Ab.

I basically agree with you but have a few points, Consider how often engine crews turn into handcrews on IA and how many times we are often called upon to perform assignments we are not "qualified" for so when we finally get that training assignment it is hardly our first exposure to the task, just the first time we have been allowed to get credit in our task book.

I agree it is unlikely that someone would get their initial single resource task book signed off in one assignment and not every assignment is going to offer enough exposure for even experienced people to get signed off in one time out. But sometimes the combination of prior experience and the quality of the assignment make that possible.

I have seen this requirement for two assignments pulled out on several occasions when a task book was completed and most have been less than concern for the quality of the job done, it is applied in an uneven fashion and not tied to experience or assignment quality. I saw highly experienced people with good 14-21 day assignments forced to take another assignment and other less experienced people who worked a shift of mop up allowed to pass with only one assignment. It was managements way of rewarding their buddies and keeping others out of the system.

In summery my complaint is not with the actual requirements as to pre reqs or a minimum number of assignments, I'm fine with either. My problem is with the people who don't follow the standards as written. If management wants CRWB to be a preq for all other Single resource bosses and a minimum number of assignments then do it, but come up with a standard and stick with it. In my experience these extra little requirements generally are management tools to control people.

When I was going for my ICT4 the FMO sat me down after a few assignments and had a little chat with me on issues unrelated to my job performance (I always received fully successful) or on my performance as an ICT4, then he went over my Taskbook and all but said if my attitude towards some issues we had differences on changed I'd get my taskbook signed off next time out, if not no task book. That is an unacceptable twisting of the taskbook system to me.

Fedfire

Wow, this whole topic about crew boss and engine boss has really seemed to fire some people up. Since I brought up the original question, let me clarify the reasons, so people dont get to concerned.

This whole topic was brought up on some of my own misunderstanding. Being from a municipal fire department that doesnt have any wildland, but goes out for the state, there was some confusion. We would more than likely never go out with a hand crew, only on engines. I had been working on my own task book for both, and was finding it difficult to get out more on a hand crew, even though I have been able to at times. So, I merely posed my question without referencing the NWCG. My bad! Where I work, it SEEMED to be you had to get your CRWB before, or during your ENGB quals. We meet ALL required training, and most definitely require MANY fires to gain experience. That hasnt been a problem. So, this was merely a lack of knowledge. There is no lack of training at all, in fact, that is highly stressed, and experience is a must before being signed off on any task book.

Thanks for all those who helped with the question, and I am GLAD to see everyone is concerned about making sure everyone gets the training and experience it takes to be qualified in a position.

Later on!
AZfirefighter

R-4

Killer was sane, Plumas jury rules

By Jane Braxton Little -- Bee Correspondent
Published 2:15 a.m. PST Friday, January 17, 2003

QUINCY -- A Plumas Superior Court jury found that Raindancer Dickey-O'Brien was sane on Jan. 20, 2000, when he murdered and robbed Mark G. "Jerry" Levitoff, a 26-year employee of the U.S. Forest Service.

The jury's verdict, reached Thursday after more than nine hours of deliberation over three days, commits Dickey-O'Brien, 24, to life in state prison without the possibility of parole. (etc)

Jerry and I spent many hours sitting in court rooms back in the late 80's and early 90's fighting for "fair and equal treatment" for ALL Forest Service employees. The court battle went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where that court denied the case a hearing. Our battle did make change during its 12 year run. A lot of people were helped.

If you knew Jerry now is your chance to insure the the Judge hears (through the Plumas County Probation Dept.) what You knew of Jerry and how important he was as an employee and friend. This will help in the sentencing of his murderer (where the killer goes to spend his life, and what kind of treatment he will receive!) Sentencing is set for Feb. 13, 2003. You can provide input by calling the Plumas County Probation Dept. at 530-283-6200, ask for Dennis Jule. This is our last action that we can do for Jerry!

Thank You,
Bob Grate

Coming in a little late on this one. If you read the TB for the Single Resource Boss's you will see that the instructions direct that the training position be circled on the front of the TB. So a person who is in training for ENGB would have that position circled on the book, accomplish the first 45 common tasks and the additional tasks for ENGB to be considered for the ENGB rating. The Red Card committee would look at the evaluations and use personal/local knowledge before granting the rating or requiring additional assignments.

Just because a person has completed the TB/test, (remember the TB is a TEST that you are allowed to take after all required training and OJT is completed, and you have up to 3 years to complete) does not automatically mean a person is qualified for a position, to many human factors to consider, that is why there is a committee.

One of the greatest wrongs in performance based training is that a person is given a TB as soon as she or he is selected for a new rating. The rules say that the TB is not to be issued until all the required training is completed. This includes OJT, just because a person does not have a TB does not mean they cannot work in the position as a trainee. Also, one more item that is lacking in the system is documentation of OJT. Sure you can use the fire evaluation, but how many trainers document training? If you are on a fire in a training mode, insist that your trainer document what was accomplished and what is needed. Keep your copy of the evaluation and when it comes time for the committee to meet you can present the evaluations as proof of your progress.

Some states and training areas have come up with a simple plan to document training. The TB person puts a sticker on the top of each page of the taskbook that splits the two column into OJT/training documentation and the right hand column for PPA (position performance assignment). This system is much better than relying on firemen evals to document and track training. Everything is one place and the evaluators can see when and where training was accomplished and when the PPA was done. This idea was presented to the God committee (NWCG) and in their infinite wisdom, it was rejected, most likely cause they did not think of it!

Now getting back to the original question, if a person is rated ENGB and wants to become a CRWB does he/she need to reaccomplish the first 45 tasks in the TB??

WP

Now I know the whole world loves to hammer R5....but R5 follows the 5109.17 as the rest of the regions are supposed to. I have cut and pasted the ENGB Position Qualification from the 5109.17 here.

25.12 - Exhibit 01--Continued

Operations Position Qualifications
______________________________________________________________
ENGINE BOSS (SINGLE RESOURCE) (ENGB)

TRAINING: LEVEL 1
I-200 Basic Incident Command System
S-215 Fire Operations In The Urban Interface
S-230 Crew Boss
S-234 Ignition Operations
S-260 Interagency Incident Business Management
S-270 Basic Air Operations
S-290 Intermediate Fire Behavior

       LEVEL 2 S-231 Engine Boss or Geographic Area Engine Academy

PREREQUISITE EXPERIENCE:
Advanced Firefighter/Squad Boss
AND
Satisfactory position performance as a Single Resource Boss Engine on a wildland or prescribed fire incident

PHYSICAL FITNESS: Arduous

OTHER POSITION ASSIGNMENTS
THAT WILL MAINTAIN CURRENCY:

       Single Resource Boss (Crew, Dozer, Felling, Firing, Tractor/Plow)

Incident Commander Type 4
______________________________________________________________

As you see, Single Resource Boss (Crew) is NOT a requirement for ENGB.
As for marching to the beat of a different drummer, how correct you are! That is what makes R5!!!!!
I would suggest that folks become familiar with the manual as
Big Smooth suggested........

Killer

I found a web site that has some great shots of the Curve Fire in CA,
Sept. 1. It is from the Mt. Wilson Solar Observatory.

www.astro.ucla.edu/~obs/curve.html
It shows how fast this plume grew.

have a good one

Phill
East Hesperia / Deep Creek
Weather Observation Sta.

Mike, it's not like theysaid is going to nominate only one person. There's room for all. We'd be happy to pass emails behind the scenes for any nomination. Only thing is, if anyone has good stories, we want to hear them, especially if they're a little embarrassing. HAW Can't let this idea of HERO go to anybody's head! Ab.

I'll post this on the jobs page as well. Hmmmmm, still have that to update jobs and the series this evening before happy hour and chat... Ab.

There is a gentleman, and former hard landing pounder who went from the
green to the fur and feathers. He has been advocating an Up The Ante guide
for safe SNAG and tree falling - especially in the wildland fire
environment.

Speaking for the five or six employees that were killed by falling trees
last year, I nominate Paul Chamberlin. Many of you won't know him but those
that do, and learn to fall timber with him - never forget what he teaches
to keep you safe. My LCES is off to Gleason too. There are many heros out
there. Come home safe.

Ghostload

Yeah, but Ghostload, ya got ta'do the paperwork for it! Talk is ch'eep. Ab.

Photos, alright. We put them on Helicopters 9, Fire 16, and Airtankers 6 photo pages. Ab.

I think these guys that have required the CRWB before allowing ENGB training have been misreading the NWCG 310-1, or making up the requirements on their own. Next time someone tries to run that one against you, take in your copy of the 310-1 for ammunition.

MtnFire

According to both 310-01 and 5109-17, you dont have to be a crwb to be an engine boss. You just need to complete the generic section while being on an engine instead of a crew. Also remember the person signing off your task book has it within their discretion to require additional assignment if they feel it is needed. They will or should be held accountable for their decision to qualify you.

Big Smooth

I knew alot of ENGB's in R-6 that were not CREW qualified and were excellent ENGB's!

For some reason there is a certain element out there that wants to hold people back, and one of those ways is to not recognize quals from other regions. Saw this in R-6 also. For those of you that are victims of this type of behavior, remember it when you get into management positions. Don't repeat the process.

How about putting Congress on 1039 appointments? They would make too much money as contractors.

Firehorse.

FWFSA has been updated.

ANF

Thanks, ANF. Ab.

I went through a similar problem, I finished my ENGB and ICT4 Task Books in AZ and spent 2 years as an Engine Foreman there, I then accepted a GS7 Engineers position in R5 and was not allowed to do my job initially, (only drive not supervise the crew) as I was told that I needed CRWB, I played along initially as I was told I would be given priority on CRWB training assignments (I'm not going to complain about getting priority for another qual). I completed one assignment and was signed off but then told there was a minimum of two assignments required to get the Task book signed off, in the entire 2000 fire season I was not offered another training assignment and there were plenty more out there before the season ended. The next season I had done some research and no one could produce the documentation with this supposed prerequisite or the minimum of two assignments, when another individual with identical quals (ENGB, ICT4 but no CRWB) was put on my engine in the Captains absence I challenged this and was told that my R3 quals were not acceptable in R5. That is when I took the matter to an informal grievance, luckily the GS8 Captain I was working for supported me and had experience (He had actually been pressuring me to push the issue earlier but I was trying to be a team player). As the forest had no leg left to stand on they relented and allowed me to begin doing the job I had been hired to do. Prior to this I had received several letters of appreciation and positive crew evaluations for my performance on fires, and I continued to receive fully successful evaluations afterwards although some of the management continued to maintain an attitude towards me which was one of several factors that caused me to leave the USFS, a job I truely enjoyed until some individuals made me want to call in sick everyday, when I was offered a job by an employer that had actively recruited me and included a pay increase that was enough for me.

I know in my case it was a matter of favoritism to locals, crew snobs and Regionalism, something that really burned me up was that ICT4 was automatically signed off with CRWB and ENGB was a matter of going to a fire with an engine crew for the crew bosses. I actually had to earn my ICT4 and ENGB. I even had my STEN Task book taken away since it was claimed I wasn't qualified to be a trainee.

When you are told that ENGB is required make them show it to you in writing, in my case it was a widely held belief but that requirement could not be found in any written form. It is not in the 310-1 or the Forest Service version (I don't recall the number). Also CRWB does not require a 20 person crew, smaller crews are acceptable, the size of the crew is another myth I have run across, I had actually been running a 10 person crew in AZ for a time but was told that could not be used to sign off my task book. I have found in many localities engines are the red headed step children when compared to crews, helitack and the smokejumpers.

Good luck and don't back off until you are satisfied they are following the rules, some people don't like it when the facts don't reflect their beliefs.

Ab, didn't know the quals of the auditor, my fault for assuming. I still say the majority of these articles are only useful as TP, even with some less than efficient use of fire money, a seasons budget is just a drop in the bucket to what the rest of the government wastes. Any chance of contracting out congress?

Fedfire

Now that's a novel thought, contracting out Congress. Ab.

Thanks everyone for the information. This is something I will bring up, and
see where the state stands.

AZfirefighter

I want to congratulate the regional forester for standing up to the
hysteria-driven media manipulated politically correct witchhunt. I
certainly am glad R5's personnel policies are not being dictated by a
disgruntled ex-employee <snip>. The
now famous LP harassers could have just been burned at the stake.

I now see being a vertebrate is not a prerequisite for <snip>.

Gordon Neiner

Professional behavior is important. I hope we can all move on from here. Ab.

The links to the 310-1 and the FSH 5109.17 are available on the Links page under training/education. Ab.

In AZ, there is a serious problem getting to an ENGB level, since you have to be
CRWB first, and that is hard to accomplish. The local/state agencies cant
get out on fires because they dont have CRWB/ENGB, but you cant get qualified
unless you go out. Seems like there needs to be a change, or different way
of getting to ENGB, especially if you are almost strictly going to be going
out on engines. Why not make it a separate position, parallel to CRWB??
Anyone have thoughts or ideas on this???

AZfirefighter

Ab, I'll help if you know of someone working on this. People
in the "They Said" bunch who agree may want to start lobbying Stihl.

Sign me,
Mike DeGrosky

I, being a contractor employee, see your point on the costs issues. Personally I would be willing to pay in a portion of my paycheck into a fund (PSOB) to have benefits. I would have no problem doing so, however, would the same issue come up, contractors being within PSOB, regardless if we are paying for it or not?

I think that it would still cause a stink within the fed system. As it is now. People just basically dont want any part of contractors in their system. They want a big fat line drawn between them. You can see it pretty much anywhere you look, and yes, even on fires (sometimes). It all goes back to fed vrs contractor . Personally I dont care. In my heart I know that we are all the same and by no means am I dogging on the forest service. I have a lot of friends in it. And I know that the door swings both ways.

R-4

Some good points you made Fedfire. However, I think contractors paying into PSOB would also muddy the financial water. If the object is to get ALL finances streamlined and clear, it seems there should be another system that is the equivalent of PSOB to fill that need for contractors. Contractors could pay into that as you describe. I believe that fire is made up of many parts and we need all types of resources to do the job.

Re: the Stihl National Forestry Heroism Award.

DF, I agree we do need to find the right person to put in the nomination for Paul Gleason for the Hero Award. Maybe we should just start here telling his stories and accomplishments and they can get folded into the app. There are some good ones. Definitely outstanding. Definitely deserving.

Tahoe Terrie

We appreciate the info. Ab.

I work out at Vandenberg and we hold a wildland academy every spring. If you can TDY out this way, you could probably get some basic classes taken care of. Also we have a regional training center that holds higher level courses every winter, things like air operations, firing methods, suppression tactics.

If your chief is cool enough, we have qualified instructors who maybe could travel and teach your department some of the basic courses. Well, give me a call if you're interested, and I could steer you to the right people.

Shawn
Vandenberg Fire Dept.

Just a suggestion about a possible addition to the website. A page that could be titled "Events" or something similar could be created with dates and information and/or links to information about events that readers write in about. Things such as the Midwest Wildfire Academy class dates and other events like a wildland fire special on TV or other seminar dates could be posted there so you wouldn't have to search through the They Said archives to find that information. Thanks for the great site.

Observer11

Sounds like a good idea. Would people go look? Ab.

Paxon urges better forest management

Firescribe, one of them anyway...

Ab.

I never thought of it this way before but PSOB is part of the cost of the government workforce. Giving this away to non government employees is similar to having the government pay for contract employee health plans or retirement. I won't go so far as saying I oppose the idea because I'd prefer to fight for my job from an uneven footing than to have the families of contracted firefighters be left with nothing after a serious injury or death. But as one put it, requiring a contractor to provide an equal amount of life insurance would be prohibitively expensive. Well currently the government is doing just that: they are looking at the cost of government labor with salaries, heath and life insurance, retirement and PSOB, and comparing them to contractors who do not have to offer any of these. Of course the government comes off looking bloated.

Now people who point out that equally applying PSOB to contractors is giving away freebees are monsters? Ramble makes a good point. That doesn't make him/her an uncaring SOB or an elitist, it is someone who is pointing out that sometimes good intentions have consequences that are not well thought out. Much as is the current case of putting people in harms way without making sure they are properly protected.

I have serious issues with the government plans for privatizing government positions, not because the the government employees are perfectly efficient, we are not, we could cut costs in some areas, but I am opposed to most of these plans because they do not compare apples to apples. This is an area in which the governments sweat shop mentality appears: there is little concern for the people providing services, just how to make the smallest dent in the government check book.

Perhaps all would be served better by having contract personnel buy in to the PSOB as a payroll deduction in a similar manner to Soc. Sec. This would ensure the families of contract personnel receive the benefits they should without creating additional costs to the government (which should increase the likelyhood of getting congress to pass it) and should be less costly to contractors than forcing them to buy a similar amount of life insurance.

As far as the comment about fighting fire without contract aircraft goes. There has been talk of the Air National Guard taking over these responsibilities and they want the job. Sure MAFFS are not as good on the whole but look how much experience is out there on the contract side (50 years + AT have been flying fires). Who knows, in 20 years maybe the Air national Guard would be better, they certainly have the resources and maybe as a bonus the Army and Marines would finally get the low and slow air support the Air Force doesn't like to give them instead of F16s at 10,000 feet and we might see an aircraft designed for fighting fire instead of 40 year old aircraft converted for a job they were never meant to do. I have nothing but respect for the pilots flying aircraft on fires and have no problems with the current arrangements for pilots but the idea that it is the only way is as chauvinistic as those who complain we feds are out to get the contractors.

The news story on the costs (OregonLive Article posted by An R-5er yesterday) is just one more of the stupid penny pinching editorials that seem to be the rage lately, I have never heard any of this nonsense when the military ships movie stars to the troops, or buys top of the line equipment for the troops but when the fire community begins to realize that well rested, happy, healthy fire fighters are more effective than one who are hungry, tired and sore form sleeping on rocks all form of goof balls come out of the woodwork screaming about abuses. $10.00 pens and pencils are abusive, have you priced pens and pencils lately, Bics don't cut it when you are 40+ writing for hours, I wonder how much a case of carpel tunnel syndrome runs the government. $50.00 a day for food? I wonder how many calories we burn when on the line, I know I saw a study at one time said a firefighter fighting a fire in a building burns more calories in 15 minutes than the typical office worker uses all day, so assuming a 12 hour shift that means we need (4x 12) 48 times as much food as a normal worker, we're getting short changed because I don't know anybody that spends a little more than a $1 a day to eat. Wow, firefighters away from home were getting paid 12 hours a day to not fight fire instead of only 8, isn't this the same government that pays farmers not to grow corn, whats the problem?

Yes when you have an organization as big as the government you find waste and abuse, but it would be nice to see these things investigated by people who know what fire is about instead of some journalist looking for a story or some bean counter second guessing actions taken in a time of crisis. Next they will start charging the IC for all the costs after IA since obviously they made a mistake in their initial tactics. If you follow this to its logical conclusion, all of us - contractor and government employee - will be out of work except for a few LEOs who will be supervising the $1 / hour prisoners they replace us with. I don't even think they would have to pay PSOBs either, what a savings.

Fedfire

Fedfire, I agree with much of what you say about costs, but let me make a slight clarification for the sake of fairness. Rich Wands, who was key in doing the research on large fire costs reported on in the OregonLive online article, grew up in fire. He knows fire. He has been in administration for a bit now, but he brings a valuable fire perspective to the research he does.

Support the Federal Firefighter's Presumptive Law.

Here's the IAFF Fact Sheet on the Presumptive Law.

RR

An easy way to reach your congress people here on the Links page under Federal. Ab.

You can also check out the second annual Midwest Wildfire Academy held in Jefferson City MO the last week in May. We'll have several S130/S190/I100 classes this year as well as S215(205) Urban Interface, S212 Saws, S290 Intermediate Fire Behavior and more. Check it out at www.mufrti.org in a couple months.

emt_micah

That's right, last week Hickman wrote in with dates and the schedule of classes that will be available at the Academy in Missouri. Ab.

I am a GS-07 in a permanent position with the DoD Fire Service, specializing in technical rescue and rescue companyoperations. Every year we get that e-mail from the BLM folks asking for people with a redcard to volunteer for deploymentduring the upcoming fire season. I taught biology and did some prescribed burning at a State Park (in a past life.:o), and miss the environment a lot. It's nothing compared to what you folks do on a day to day basis, but it wasenough to wet my whistle for more. I want to pretend that I'm a complete know-nothing, and start like every other rookie. What is the best course to get into to obtain basic qualifications for line work? Thanks in advance for your response.

Christopher R; Capt.
375th CES Fire Department
Scott AFB, Illinois 62225

Readers, help this polite fella out, would'ya please? Ab.

You ask were it will be heating up this year. We might not be first to heat up, but here in Montana we are very low on snow pack. East of the divide has no to very little snow this year. Some one told me that people in Billings MT were mowing their yards is Dec. On the west side most drainages have less than 60% snow pack. It is very dry. They predict that we will be in the High fire danger by March if we do not get snow. I plow snow for the state, and have only worked less than 2 weeks, and last year at this time I had 2 months in. I guess I will make up for it this summer.

MDL

Ab.

Jim

Thanks for the new news page. It makes the researching part of my job much easier.

Today under Wildfire there are articles on small fires in Florida, how a thinned (managed) forest on a private CA foothills ranch saved the neighbors' homes, a report of what was discussed at a conference on the thinning of forests, and several articles on the Federal plan for forests being put to the test in 10 locations around the country. Lotsa fire chatter in places that burned last summer.

Under Forest Fire there are articles about a group suing to halt logging at Rodeo/Chedeski, Barton pleading guilty in starting the Hayman Fire and, for those who didn't see it earlier, a lucid article by former chief Dombeck entitled "Water is forest's most vital product". And an article about a fire in Australia.

Under Wildland Fire and Brush Fire the news is a bit slimmer. Under Malibu Fire, the news has all but dried up. Australia Brush Fires is also fairly quiescent. Airtankers has a flurry of articles from the last week in December and the first week in January about the planes that crashed flying missions for the CIA.

There is a little redundancy if articles contain multiple categories of search words, but if you look at an article in one category, the link becomes a different color gray across all categories.

I like it. It will be especially handy when fire season heats up, which could be sometime soon in Southern CA. But in the meantime, I continue to use it for "media watch".

Thanks,
Firescribe.

Firescribe and Readers, if you have a fire topic you think might be interesting under "Current Events", please let us know. Link to new Fire News Page. Ab.

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that unless the contracting rep's do accept about a $5-$15 per person per hour increase on suppression costs from contractors, that this will never happen. Its been a pipe dream for years now and personally I don't foresee anything of this sort coming. The company I work for has been looking at this aggressively now for about 3 years. The cheapest they could come up with is about 200 a month per employee. With that in hand, its a huge number to fork out every month.

And as far as contractors being public safety officers or not, why does this make a difference? It really shouldn't. I mean that's getting nit picky in my opinion. I could sit here and debate on the same issue on the person that sits behind a desk all year doing road improvements or is in charge of recreation and then finally gets to go on a 2 day assignment because there district is all out of resources, are they public safety officers? I really don't want an answer on that, all I am saying is that why waste the time and energy on titles? People who pound ground are the same, fed, state, contractor and even cons...

RO

You quoted the Bureau of Justice Fact Sheet as saying that "The PSOB Act, according to the fact Bureau of Justice Fact Sheet "was designed to offer peace of mind to men and women seeking careers in public safety". It was enacted "to assist in the recruitment and retention of law enforcement officers and firefighters", to "allow communities to provide for public safety". "

If it had said "to offer peace of mind to public sector employees with careers in public safety or to assist the public sector in the recruitment and retention of ...firefighters" I think your argument would be valid. Frankly I think the taxpayers, whose safety firefighters (federal or contract) are providing for would have a hard time understanding why you think "public" firefighters should be provided for so much better than those on the line beside them who are providing the exact same service (to the public) via a contract.

It really just the old "seasonal /contract firefighters are not "real" firefighters" crap all over again. Maybe from your perspective there is a huge difference between an employee of a public agency and a private business that works under the direction of a public agency ...but I think your perspective is mainly dependent on your ego. Both agency and contract firefighters equally serve the public (taxpayer) doing the same work...often side by side. WE wear the same gear and take the same risks. And when a firefighter is injured or killed no one (except the lawyers) care to make the distinction that they were private or public sector . We look out for each other like family on the line. So why once we step out of the danger zone does one group of firefighters suddenly become "better" than the rest?

I agree with you that a private business exists mainly to make a profit since it must do so to continue to exist. Public agencies on the other hand do not have that burden. If I were the cynical type I would say public agencies exist to primarily to spend their budget. While contractors may make a profit one year there is little guarantee that they will the next. If benefits of their employees (your brother and sister firefighters) is left to their discretion you can bet that few benefits will be there when they are needed. The public agencies responsible for wildfire suppression are additionally responsible for the safety and welfare of all firefighters who aid them in controlling wildfires. They may make believe that they shed that responsibility in some measure by contracting the services of private fire suppression companies due to some legal technicality, but ethically and morally...no one is going to buy such a specious argument.

Is your point that only firefighters that work for a govt. agency DESERVE to be treated fairly? Or that the families of contract/seasonal firefighters who are injured or killed (on duty) do not DESERVE to receive the same benefits that their public sector counterparts do?

Lets be fair here. If firefighters do the same job they should be treated the same when it comes to "offering peace of mind" to those providing for the public safety as well as their dependents. They all take a huge risk fighting fire. They all risk their lives, their health, and their families future to make life safer for the public...and the fact that some work for the Feds, some for the states, and some for private contractors is a nearly inconsequential and completely artificial difference.

Ramble your arguments left me shaking my head in wonder at why you feel so damn superior to your private sector brother and sister firefighters. This just sounds like a case of "I got it and you don't so you must not deserve it". From my point of view just because you belong to a group of firefighters that gets better pay or benefits than another group of firefighters does not make you BETTER than those other firefighters.

I got news for you. From the taxpayers perspective few private businesses could afford to pay for the level of benefits that public employees currently enjoy. Few businesses could survive with that kind of financial burden...they would go bankrupt and there employees would be out of a job. But since Govt. agencies can always just dump excessive expenditures off on the taxpayers backs no such limits exist for them. The fact that public employees unions have been successful at negotiating better and better benefits over the years for "public servants" (LOL) does not mean that seasonal or contract firefighters don't deserve it too.

There is a word for those who think they are better than others because of some nebulous or insignificant affiliation....its elitism. And frankly I think firefighters in general would be far better off if there were less of it. It is divisive and generally does little other than make those claiming they are bigger/badder/better firefighters look like asses.

Dana

Got to agree w/ Ramble on the PSOB issue. The comparison to the different functions within the military does not make sense. Either you are in the military, or you are not. If you are in you get certain benefits, and if you are not you don't. And there are many people who get paid by the military who are not in, and do not get those benefits.

If the treatment that contractor employees get is unjust, there are ways to correct it without diluting the PSOB system. Contracts could require that the contractor carry insurance/benefits that would be comparable to what it is for PSOs without including them into the system. The cost would end up being paid by the taxpayer, and that is OK with me.

If we are going to use contractors (and that seems to be the wave of the future) I am not in favor of doing anything would result in giving contractors a false economy when looking at the economics. If giving contractor employees decent benefits is the right thing to do (and I think it is), then do it and let the costs be included in the costs of doing business. But keep in mind that contractors, though they share many of the same hazards, are not Public Safety Officers.

6

The Public Sector Ombudsman

For as long as government has existed, guaranteeing citizens fair and equitable treatment under the law has been an issue and various protections have been utilized over the years. In modern times the public sector Ombudsman, where instituted, has been a successful and valuable guarantor of citizens' rights. By impartial and independent investigation of citizens' complaints, it has provided an informal and accessible avenue of redress.

The first public sector ombudsman (OM-budz-man, -buhdz-, -boodz-) was appointed by the Parliament of Sweden of 1809. The Swedish Constitution divided and balanced power between the king and Parliament with the king having executive powers and Parliament retaining legislative power. The ombudsman, who was appointed by and responsible to Parliament, was to protect individual rights against the excesses of the bureaucracy.

This first ombudsman's office, since its creation, has been the model for the public sector ombudsman, and set the definition that is still accepted today: a public official appointed by the legislature to receive and investigate citizen complaints against administrative acts of government. These acts may or may not include the administrative acts of the judiciary or the legislature, depending upon the statute.

Interesting stuff huh?...never have seen my ombudsman rep on the fireline! Probably a little too hot or dusty!

Its almost time to step it up a few notches on the treadmill with a 45lb pack....any predictions on this next season?

r3firetaz

There are very few Fed Fire org. in Oklahoma other than B.I.A. There seems to be a large turn over in that organization so may be easy to get in. They do a lot of Rx burning on Indian land. The Tallgrass belongs to the Nature Conservancy, and they also do a lot of prescribe burning. Also up in my part of the country most of the land is owned by ranchers and they do a lot of burning, but sometimes they are not to concerned with the consequences..
Good luck

Retired in Ok.

Almost looks like socal. I put them on the Helicopters 9 photo page. Ab.

If you're burning in the Tallgrass Prairie, in
Oklahoma I presume, then you're in the South, where
more Rx burning is done than anywhere in the US. The
Southern Region of the USFS has the largest Rx burn
target of all the Regions, and Florida I believe is
ground zero. Several districts on the Ouachita NF in
Ark/OK burn upwards of 20,000 acres annually (mostly
helitorch), you need to contact them in Hot Springs,
AR. The Southern Region in the past has filled Rx
burn detail positions for the burning season
(winter/spring), plus a couple of Rx fire modules. Not
sure about this year, but right now is the time to
check, and I mean quick. The Park Service has several
Rx fire modules around the nation as well, including
one at Buffalo River National River, in North
Arkansas. Their modules go where needed. If you're at
the Tallgrass Prairie Preserve (Park Service?), then
you need to also make contact with the Fire Ecology
folks at Okla. State University - Range Dept. (they
have ties with the Forestry Dept. as well) and try to
get some courses in. If Rx fire is your heartbeat,
then Fire Ecology should be your blood, especially if
you want a higher grade position. It's all about
planning and implementing your burn based on the
objectives and effects of the burn, not how big a
column you can make (although our motto for site prep
burns used to be it wasn't a good burn unless rocks
popped, and you had whirlwinds! But those good old
days are gone.) Outside of the south, the FS is doing
it's best to burn every chance they can, especially in
the Ponderosa Pine ecosystem that has short fire
intervals (try Region 3, Southwest Region, USFS).

Good luck. - Forstmeister

Thanks,
Mellie

Ab,

Hope you or someone out there could assist. I know that this does not fit
into the current "Contract/Fed" topic but It might provide some wanted
relief from that heated topic.

I have been to all the job websites, forest websites, and fire job lists I
can find but I am still not finding very many Rx associated jobs at the 5/6
level. I do not know If I need to focus my search on strict Rx fire or
maybe look into Fire Use modules. My previous experience with the FS is,
well, they don't burn. I know it depends upon region, but I want to set
fire and thats the bottom line. I thought there might be other alternatives
or maybe even an "inner circle" of Rx fanatics that I could tap into for job
info. It's not that I don't like suppression but my tool of choice is the
driptorch. I already have 19 burns under my belt and probably another 22-24
this spring. I am not a virgin to the driptorch and maybe that is why the
4/5 fuels positions don't sound appealing. Thats all I got, I guess I will
have to get enough of the tallgrass to last me for a while. Thanks Ab. for
any help.

OKpyro.

Readers, any info? Ab.

Ab,

I had a discussion with my Captain about this subject; he informed me of the same talk dating back to the '80s about contractors taking over because of cost. He told me that all the same subjects have been brought up before and discussion has not changed since then. We have come to the conclusion that contractors taking over will never happen in our life times and I am 35.

I would really be surprised if this ever happened. By the time all the paper work and all the new committees that have been formed from this issue have written their reports, Bush will be voted out of office because he has pissed everybody off for the lack of support he has given the Federal Fire Service.

An-R5er

I was following up on CH's suggestion that we write our congressman. I was about to do the cut & paste thing, but I ended up writing this little treatise. I thought you might enjoy.

-Nomad
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Congresswoman Lee,

I know you're a busy woman with all sorts of crazy things to do- budgets to balance, taxes to raise (or lower), armies to build, terrorists to kill, and economies to resuscitate. My request is small, but very important to me, and since theoretically you represent me, well damnit you're my only voice in the matter.

You see, I am a wildland fire fighter for the US Forest Service (Dept of Agriculture). My buddies and I don't ask much- we fight fires in steep, hot country on shifts that often exceed 24 hours, we sleep in the dirt all summer, and when it's all over, our girlfriends leave us because we're never around- all this for $10 an hour, no health coverage, and lay off notices at the end of the summer. The public may call us heroes, but we get paid like chumps. But that's okay, few of us go into this work for the money- we do it because we love it and because of the eclectic and extraordinary array of characters that are our brethren.

If one of us gets killed in the line of duty, the feds then have courtesy enough to treat us to "Public Safety Officer's Benefits." This is good. Unfortunately, the guys that fight fire from the air don't get these benefits when they die. This is bad.

Over the years, the risks involved in wildland fire fighting have increased. Houses have crept into the foothills and mountainsides, as evidenced by the Berkeley and Oakland Hills. One of the ways that fire managers have dealt with this is by transferring risk from people on the ground to the people in the air. The aerial fire fighters, in particular the Airtanker (aka slurry bomber) crews, die at an astounding rate. Of a national fleet of 50 airtankers, on the average 1 crashes every year, killing everyone on board. That means that 2% of all airtanker crews die each year. That's really bad.

If you'd like to read more, you can go to www.nifc.gov/blueribbon/BRP_120502.pdf and download the recent Blue Ribbon Panel Report, the product of a federal investigation into the national Airtanker fleet. The panel was assembled during the stand down of the entire airtanker fleet this summer after two airtankers crashed in the same week (independently of each other) when their wings came off midflight.

To save you from reading the 60+ page report, I'm providing a truncated version. Basically, the Forest Service and other federal land management agencies with wildfire protection responsibilities (BLM, Fish and Fur, NPS, etc) get their Airtankers through an array of contracts with private companies. The aircraft crews are provided by the contractor. For a variety of reasons, but mostly due to a lack of FAA oversight (the aircraft are dubbed as special "restricted use" category type and thus do not receive any regular inspection) and the failure of the federal agencies to require or budget for necessary maintenance, the aircraft are held to an absurdly low standard of safety, one without parallel in either the civilian or military aviation communities. These planes are flying lawn darts.

It's a miracle that these planes fly at all! In case you're imagining high tech, state of the art aircraft, let me inform you of just what we're talking about here. These planes are Vietnam, Korea, and WWII vintage airplanes. These are typically retired, ex-military aircraft. And they're not borne airtankers either- they're old cargo planes. According to a NASA study done in the early 1980's, the G-forces experienced during some (1-2 out of 100) retardant drops not only exceed aircraft deign tolerances, but they compare to what an F-16 fighter (or another high performance jet) experiences when pulling out of a steep dive. And you must remember the terrain that these pilots work in- just look outside your office window and you can see the Oakland Hills of 1993 fire fame. A typical retardant drop altitude is 200 feet off the ground. That's some tricky flying, and most places are steeper, higher, and windier than anyplace in the San Francisco Bay. So for the pilots, operating these planes is like taking mom's station wagon to the drag strip- it's fun, but it ain't easy.

So, you may ask, why don't they just only fly on "safe" assignments- well, lots of reasons. A big one is that people, in particular, rich constituents who live in the foothills, complain if a fire is threatening their house and they don't see planes flying overhead. You get phone calls and emails, someone from your office calls our office, then badda-bing badda-boom, the planes are flying over the rich people's houses. Moreover, when fire fighters like me are in a bad situation, we sometimes need the airtankers to save our ass. They know that, and we know that. These guys will part a smoke-belching, orange-red sea of fire for us when the time calls for it, and I'll be damned if I ain't grateful for all that they're done for me and countless others over the years.

So in short, please support the bill introduced by Rep. Barbara Cubin of Wyoming to include aerial firefighters in the coverage of Public Safety Officers Benefits (PSOB).

Oh, and one last thing, we're not talking about a lot of money either- this would apply to only a handful of people every year. So please, give us a little bit of the respect we deserve and do this small favor for our fire fighting brethren in the air.

How do contractors feel about their employees being unionized? I work for a Private EMS/Fire company that is represented by the IAFF and things are better than we could have ever imagined.

GA

There are some engine and crew contractors that I wouldn't trust with my house keys, not to mention banking my mortal existence on. I could check off several that manage to stay one step ahead of the Department of Labor, INS, IRS, etc. Then when the heat gets turned up by The Man and they are disqualified from doing business with the gov--or are even facing fines and jail time--they re-open shop in the name of their wife or brother-in-law. They pull stunts like filch gov. property, falsify time sheets, gin up qualifications and do not cover their employees under workman's comp. etc. Why? Because they know how to game the system.

On the other hand, I can name engine contractors I associate with who are competent in every way. They hire good, well-trained people, run good equipment and have earned the trust of the agencies they contract with. They are well-run organizations that provide flexible, efficient, economical protection and suppression services to the government.

So how do we get more of the latter, and not the first?

I work with the Gov in both EERA and contract IA roles. In six seasons of contract firefighting with the fed, some of the major problems I see with the fire contractor/fed relationship are:

1) Inadequate oversight.
2) Lack of post-season auditing.
2) Inadequate contract enforcement mechanisms.
3) Lack of uniform regulations from region to region.
4) Lack of an ombudsman.
5) Inadequate fed staff training in day-to-day dealings with engine contractors. (Some regions are very good, others terrible.)
6) Inadequate training support.

Note that high on my list is building a better regulatory structure. Additionally, contractors must do a MUCH better job of policing their ranks. Strong, well-run associations are a good first step. These, coupled with an improved federal structure can help pluck out the noxious weeds. For example, if you want your car fixed, you take it to a competent business with qualified personnel who can do the job right, for a fair price. And when the car's done, you review the bill, drive the car and make sure they did it right. If they didn't, you don't go back. Should fire contractors be any different?

Fire contractors will never replace the federal system, nor should they. Having worked inside the federal fire system, though, I can see benefits to contracting. Among other roles, contractors are the flexible ready reserves for a national fire suppression system that can be overburdened in a matter of hours. I have worked with both military units and fire departments at federal fires. Although they are vital resources, both come with unique, sometimes difficult challenges to fire managers and are clearly not in a role to fill the void if contractors were to go away.

I don't have a crystal ball to tell me where the Great Eagle is going to land with this issue. But this much I know: contract firefighting is not going away. Some federal staff are going to learn how to steer the issue and others are going to get run over by it.

To the gentle reader who believes that #@$%&* contractor scum are behind every rock and around every bush, gunning for his "hard-earned" path to retirement, (hopefully, that's not all he sees it as!), perhaps the footsteps you hear is Progress trying to find the most efficient way to prevent and fight wildfires.

Snake River Sparky

Six Rivers National Forest in beautiful northern CA has some positions needing to be filled.

First of all I have nothing against contract crews, in fact I plan on seeking out a quality contractor for employment when I retire. I have worked with many contract crews that were excellent and some that were terrible, I can say the same about government crews (Local, State and Fed). I think that there is a place for contractors but the government should provide the bulk of the suppression crews, as I believe that there is no way a for profit business can do it for less AND offer more than the government gets from their own crews without sacrificing something somewhere, (experience, employee working conditions, quality of equipment) something has to go to do it for less because a business needs to make a profit to survive, the government doesn't. This doesn't mean the government can't find way to streamline the operation but it makes just as much sense to me to contract out all fire suppression as it does to contract out the combat arms of the military. The other problem with contracting suppression crews is the pool of experienced fed employees will be that much smaller and look at the shortages already being seen.

Those of you screaming how did this happen, where is our union etc, do you belong to the FWFSA? If not you get what you pay for, nothing. Actually even though the FWFSA represents a very small percentage (as in .01% or less) of the IAFF I would be willing to bet if this really becomes a possibility the IAFF will be there in force to defend the Fed wildland firefighters so actually the majority of you out there will actually be getting the "supposedly non existent" free lunch. There are an equal number or possibly more 0455/0462 federal wildland firefighters (7-10,000 as far as I can find numbers for) than 0081 Federal firefighters (roughly 7,000)but out of those numbers the majority of the 0081's belong to IAFF, while only a few hundred of the 0455/0462's belong to the FWFSA and by extension the IAFF. The IAFF has done much for us on the 0081 side (including getting a moratorium of contracting us out), not so much for you 0455/0462, I think the numbers help explain why wildland issues are the first to go when issues have to be cut from congressional negotiations.

I see a few major problems with the Federal Fire Service wildland and structural, we are stealth departments, few in Washington or else where see what we really do, all our employers see are big costs and no gain. NObody will cry for you when you're gone if they didn't know you were there to begin with (I'm sure other R5'rs have heard the remark, "oh you work for CDF, then", when telling people where you work).

Let me give you an example, down the road a bit from the base I work for there was another small Federal Fire Department, in the late 1970's the city department surrounding the base offered to provide fire protection for less than the cost of operating the fed fire department. Seemed like a good deal at the time since the department ran few emergency calls and the firefighters just sat around eating donuts as far as the command was concerned. Once the feds were gone the true costs came out, "Why aren't you doing building inspections" "Thats prevention, we only contracted for suppression", so the base had to hire some building inspectors, "We need you to teach a first aid class for some of the military dependents" "Sure, that will cost $X.xx per person" "We need you to do some service calls (wash down parade grounds, etc)" "Sure thing but it will cost you extra, thats not in the contract". "Hey what is this bill for?" "We had to come out on 19 false alarms last month, each one after the first is $X.xx)" Etc, Etc. That base still contracts with the city because the expense to rebuild a fire department from scratch is too high, but when these additional costs are added up they spend more each year than we get for our fire budget and we protect a larger area and much higher value property. The moral of the story is that department did not sell themselves to the command to show the actual gain provided for the money spent.

This is not to suggest that contractors are money grubbing parasites, but no company with decent business sense is going to offer free services that are not in the contract. Government employees on the otherhand have that ever popular "other duties as assigned clause" in their job descriptions.

I still see the same problems with nearly all Federal fire departments, we do a terrible job advertising what we do, there are also many who absolutely refuse to go an extra inch beyond what they feel they have to. Many Fed Structure departments refuse to touch "project work" leaving it to Public works who themselves usually wind up contracting it out to some private crew, many also refuse to assist the local communities with mutual aid agreements because "why work harder if we won't get paid more". The reverse is the Fed Wildland folks who absolutely fight tooth and nail to accept any additional duties beyond the wildland, EMS? no way, building inspections of Federal buildings?, not my job, visitor services?, not unless they are on fire. Clearly this is not the case with all but I'm sure if you are honest you either know people like this or are people like this.

Phoenix fire provides many non traditional services (cab ride vouchers for those calling the ambulance for a ride, assistance to the elderly unloading groceries, changing the battery in smoke detectors) Chief Bunacini (sp?) has committed his department to making all residents of Phoenix feel the fire department will respond to help them with any crisis how ever small, they have even begun staffing community services vans to assist with the program. As a result the fire department gets what ever it wants because they have the citizens are 100% behind their fire department and the city government has learned the voters support their fire department. You think voters in the city care if some fire engine or crew in some distant mountain gets cut or replaced by contractors? or if some military fire department gets closed and the calls run by a more distant city fire engine? or the 4-5 firefighters on the engine are replaced with 1 or 2, the crew with 10 instead of 20?

In my opinion contracting out Fed wildland firefighters is just a first step to contracting out all of us, and if the feds go this way how long until the states and cities get the idea? Fire departments really are just expensive insurance policies, California has a pretty big budget shortfall, if inmates can work hand crews why not engines?, if private companies can operate ambulance why not brush trucks. If the contractors prove that they can provide better services for less cost without sacrificing employee working conditions and the public safety, I'll be the biggest supporter but I have not yet seen a private company offer anything over the public sector except cost savings usually at the cost of the employees and / or the residents protected.

One of my biggest gripes with the whole contracting issue is we are not getting a fair shot at it, contractors can come in and bid on our jobs but we can not offer the reverse, a cost savings by accepting contracted services. The city surrounding my department has been after our jobs for 20 years, they have not been able to do it because they can not provide the same level of service at lower cost, to be realistic we could offer fire protection to the city for much less than they are paying, they have higher pay (by at least 20%) and work 20% fewer hours per week, with the same number of employees we have 4 person staffing on our engines they have 3 persons per engine. Our assistance has been refused on incidents across the street from our station because it is their jurisdiction, does this show concern for their residents? I really am not advocating Feds taking over State and City departments but for many small communities with few resources of their own next to existing Federal fire protection it could be very attractive and cost effective, when I was with the Forest Service we had a small community nearby, they paid CDF for fire protection but the nearest CDF engine was 2 hours away, and the nearest structure department was an hour away, we were 20 minutes away and BLM was located right in town. Who would have been the most logical choice if you ran the town. As it was we responded to incidents in town for free with inappropriate resources while CDF collected the money. I know that was not an isolated case. I picture a set up similar to CDF, the locality pays for the cost based on how much (if any) additional costs are incurred, plus part of the existing operating costs. For example a base which is required to have 2 Type 1 engines and a Type 4 engine and a town of 100 people is next to the base, the existing fire protection is sufficient for the town so it would pay a % of the budget, off setting part of the departments expense. Example two the same town is down the road from a Forest Service Station, this requires the addition of a type 1 engine and EMT training, the town pays for the engine and EMT training and a portion of the costs for the employees. The money gained improves the fed department and the safety of the nearby residents. Perhaps some of this money could be used to hire the people that make those slick CDF and LA County videos to blow off that stealth field we work under. I know, I know there I go thinking again, this makes too much sense for the government.

I also am very supportive of the idea of a unified Federal Fire Department, instead of each agency, forest, military branch and base having essentially their own fire department bring us under one agency US Fire Protection or preferably something with a catchy acronym (how about Federal Integrated Response to Emergencies Service or FIRES). Each federal entity would then work through the unified fire agency to obtain the required services, this would eliminate some of the overhead costs and hopefully eliminate much of the empire building that currently occurs. Integration of more Fed structural firefighters into the teams could broaden the usefulness of these teams on non-wildland fire events into all risk teams as may be needed if 9/11 becomes only the beginning of a terror war in the US (as many experts are telling us to expect). The teams currently are excellent but on non wildfire events they basically become logistics support, what if they could offer the same kind of leadership they provide on wildland to all disasters, natural and man made. It could also offer some options for us as we get older, let the young ones hike the hills, as the knees go bad move into a chiefs job someplace flat for your declining years. Someone has already developed a logo, just drop wildland from the design and were all set wildlandfire.com/pics/logo5/niwfmltest.jpg now just to get the management and politicians on board. I'm sure the debate on uniform color would be endless.

I was hoping with all the talk of a homeland security agency fire might get some attention too, but it is pretty clear those talking homeland security are only interested in the gun toting variety, not those who will show up when prevention fails (as they admit it occasionally will). FEMA managed to get into the pot, but not the rest of us. Not meant as a crack at those working for FEMA but how is it the agency in charge of major disasters knows less about doing the job than the rest of us who show up, why not just be honest and change the name to Federal Emergency Check Writing Agency.

Ok, Ab I'm done with my ranting, hope some of this is useful to somebody, thanks for providing a place for us to cuss and discuss issues.

Fedfire

You're welcome. Ab.

With all this talk about replacing feds with contractors, you have to remember how the
fed system works. To get rid of existing fed fire folks, they would have to invoke the RIF
authority, and then sort through all fed firefighters by seniority and time in grade. Then the
higher GS level folks could just bump lower GS people out of their jobs. The RIF would have to
be authorized by Congress (who voted for the National Fire Plan buildup in the first place), and
then to sort it all out would take years, even IF President Bush won another term and wanted to
do this. And how would the contractors be supplied on large fires? they cannot go to a supply
unit and check things out like a fed crew or engine, usually they have to have all of their own
equipment. When a contract engine uses all of their hose and leaves it on a fire, they have to
go get it or do without. And, is the federal government going to give contractors the power to
make tactical decisions, such as large bac!kfiring ops on National Forest?. This whole thing
seems far away to me.

-MJ

p.s. the Six Rivers National Forest in California has jobs open, see the firejobs page.

When I started this dialogue, my intent was NOT to bash contract engines or crews! I have seen great contractors and shitty ones. I've seen spot-on agency engines and ones that truly lived up to the name engine-slug. Even in my arena (hotshotting), there are good crews, great crews and even some real wastes of federal funding.

My real point was that we would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to try and convert IHC's to Initial Attack Modules. Hotshot crews have absolutely the most experience with large incidents and their experience in burning out, blacklining and back firing is unrivaled. Large fire is what we do. Initial attack would truly be a waste of a govt. resource.

And let's face it- no matter how quickly we all ran to start our own contract crews if this shift happens, there simply wouldn't be enough time, money (investment capital) or people to cope with a wildland season. Yes, incident costs need to be trimmed- absolutely! But examples of heavies sittin on the pads and tankers painting entire mountain ranges are more indicative of poor management at forest and regional levels than the need to privatize the local resources.

The answer is to simply make people accountable for the decisions they make. Throughout the fire service (private and federal) there is a lack of accountability. Be it fatalities, fire costs or lost structures, no one is stepping up and saying "My bad- I f*ed up!" ...and that needs to change.

-blackliner

Mollysboy- Hot enuff 4 U?

Just wanted to add my two bits in regard to the Contract/Federal FF issue.

Firefighting is a lifestyle for me and my family, not a business. I have contracted Engines/Tenders since 1992 in R6. I entered into contract firefighting through interest not greed.

I worked fire for the CDF in high school and finished my Bachelor's degree with the USFS as an intern. I planned on making the USFS a career, (1988). I was picked up as a 462 Temp in Fire and completed agency fire school S-130 and S-190, engine school, power saw school, cruiser school and worked summers in fire for two more seasons and timber and nursery in the off season. We found a lot of Spotted Owls, all our timber sales were appealed, and we all lost our jobs. I used my degree and started working in municipal engineering/surveying.

I missed fire so I volunteered in our county fire department. We had a very progressive department and we had a wildland division as well as structural. Our dept had NWCG certified instructors who brought all wildland individuals through the S-205, S-211, S-215, S-230, S-234, S-290, S-390 courses. Our dept worked a partnership with the State Community College and the local ODF Office as well. Our dept utilized our trained people to respond to our county jurisdiction incidents, but, the ODF/USFS/BLM also contracted our people to work as Type 2 handcrews and as Engine Bosses. This was simply a natural extension of the efficient utilization of trained and motivated firefighters. In time our dept built wildland engines and the R6 Interagency Engine/Tender Contract hired our apparatus as well. I worked full time municipal/state engineering until 1995 when I started full time in contract firefighting. The firefighters that I hire have very similar stories to tell. Once you've been bit by the fire bug nothing else satisfies. Out of the 9 employees that I had working for me for fire season 2002, 7 of them have a Bachelors degree and prior state or federal fire service. These are very professional individuals who are an asset and a definite resource to the fire community. The combined agency time-in-service that my crew has is 56 years.

In order to contract with R6 I have to carry $2,000,000 in workers comp, $2,000,000 in commercial business insurance, and $1,000,000 in commercial vehicle insurance, also $800 month for blue cross. This costs alot and the payments are year round, I pay all winter when there is no fire $. I make it through the winter by working in reforestation and my wife is a substitute teacher. Like I said this is a lifestyle and I have no complaints, and the bills get paid one way or another but I am also not going to listen to mega - misinformation be posted by people who probably have not invested their own hard earned money in the gamble of contract firefighting. In 1995 we got 5 shifts, period, but we hocked everything and stayed-the-course.

Honesty is another issue. In R6 we bid engines/tenders wet. That means we are self contained in our apparatus and need nothing from the incidents that we respond to, nothing. In fact I routinely loan adapters, wyes, when requested, to our respective Division Sups, and I have on more than one occasion given my entire engine inventory to an out-of-region Division Sup who did not know the R6 contract protocol. In this case it is my gamble, legally he cannot ask for anything but this is a team effort so I always give my equipment. I always write an inventory list and get a DS signature, supply always resupplies me but I have been warned that they don't have to give me anything and that if they, USFS, want I will have to write a legal claim for the equipment that will take 30 days to process, but I must have the engine resuppied within 24 hours . Our apparatus' inventory is private, it is our own and we are warned that we cannot and will not be able to use incident supply for ANYTHING. If we run out of batteries or damage a glove we can use an incident credit/resource card that instantly charges these consumable supplies against our pay. The demob process ensures that we have all supply items, fuel, etc deducted from our pay invoice. The demob process also checks again our equipment inventory. We paint/color code ALL of our equipment. I have never heard of or seen anyone take anything from a federal/state engine and I didn't just fall off the cabbage cart. Our Engines also meet the National Fire Contract specifications and are inspected with a fine toothed comb, we want and enjoy the best equipment too! This winter alone I have reinvested $16,000 in fire equipment for our 2 engines to update and refurbish tanks, pumps, hose reels, truck-bed, radios, etc.

Once the fire season is over it's time to pay all the taxes and workers comp insurance, repair/update the engines and try to pay off the big bills to get us through the winter, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. There is nothing like working on a great engine strike team, yes contractors have them and are part of agency teams too, and the accomplishments, the adrenaline and the independence are all the real reasons that I and my contract buds fight fire.

another EngineSlugR6

1. We have done a lousy job of controlling costs on large fires, no one can argue that doing the job is not expensive, but seriously how many times have you seen IMT's hold on to heavy helicopters and insist on using them to heli-mop or just have them hang around the h-base at thousands of $ an hour and then make you show a lunch break. How much retardant has been dropped on the head of a running fire for political or other reasons only to have the fire, spot 1/2 mile past , or, burn through the retardant line.

2. Every Federal agency has tried to build it's own empire with separate but duplicate fire organizations from FMO/Fire Staff down to the crewpeople. I have long been an advocate of having one federal wildland fire agency. Look around, if you have an area that has BLM, FS, FWS, DOD, NPS or any combination of agencies, each of them has their own fire dept. The policies and objectives of each agency differ, granted, their fuel planners would be able to order needed resources either from the private sector or the federal wildland fire agency as needed when they had a project to do.

3. If you complain about contractors do you use the same standard to judge the agency crews? Are you trying to find a solution to the training and qualification problem or are you just crying because you "worked hard to get where you are at in your federal job" and are scared you might lose it?

The contractors are here to stay like it or not. If you are not actively working to help improve the crews and resources that are substandard whether they be private, local, state or federal then you are part of the problem. I was there when the first wave of private firefighters hit the beach and there has been great improvement in most of the companies in the last 15 years. Some of the contract companies have shown themselves to be leaders in innovation of new equipment and support systems way above anything we have come up with on the federal side.

4. We can and must be pro-active in making sure that we have the best, safest firefighting resources working doing the job. If we see things that aren't right we have to speak up when we see it. If you use tact and turn your pride down a notch you can effect changes in the people working around you.

No one wants poor performance or unsafe actions on the fireline, do what you can to help and quit whining. Who knows you might be one of them yourself someday if things progress towards privatization.

Backburnfs

I have three questions for you..
1) are you Jealous of Contract crews and engines taking over
2) Did you know most Contractors or Old Fed Workers
3) I just want to let you know the grass ain't always greener on the other side of the Fence. I worked for the Feds for 10 years and it stinks.. I am glad you are where you are at I am fine where I am at so please don't put contract crews and engines down.. I was on a fire this year were I SEEn a few Gov Engines sitting around doin what they do best PLAY cards adn gossip.. WIll we are out there mopping up stump holes.. Granted we don't have a job from day to day like feds do but when we get to a fire we do our job to make a good impression on the DIVS. and who ever else is lookin on.. We aren't there to take away your fire fun but think about next time you wanta talk about Contractors.. 99% of them are old Fed and BIA and State.. so thanks for listening and be safe when you talk to a fire man..

Upset R6FF

Midwest Wildfire Academy
Jefferson City Missouri
May 28th - June 1, 2003

University of Missouri Fire/Rescue Training Institute
Summer Fire School
Classes for Structural and Wildland Fire Fighters

Wildland Courses:

D-110 Dispatch Reporter - 5/29-31/2003
I-300 Incident Command Intermediate ICS - 5/29-31/2003
??S-100 (think this should be I-200) Basic ICS - 5/28-6/1/2003?? (we're checking on it)
S-130 Firefighter Training - 5/28-6/1/2003
S-131 Advanced Firefighter Training - 5/28/03 & 6/1/03
S-190 Introduction to Wildland Fire Behavior - 5/28-6/1/2003
S-205 (Use to be S-215) Fire Operations In the Urban Interface -5/28-5/30/03
S-211 Portable Pumps and Water Use - 5/30-6/1/03
S-230 Crew Boss (Single Resource) - 5/30-6/1/03
S-231 Engine Boss (Single Resource) - 5/31
S-260 Interagency Incident Business Management- 5/28-5/29/03
S-270 Basic Air Operations- 5/28-5/29/03
S-281 Supervisory Concepts & Techniques - 5/28-5/29/03
S-290 Intermediate Wildland Fire Behavior- 5/29-6/1/03
S-390 Introduction to Wildland Fire Behavior Calculations- 5/30-6/1/03

Hickman

Now my opinion. I think this sucks. I have worked hard to get where i am at in my federal job, and while it is not all roses all of the time, i wouldnt do anything else. Being from an area that uses contract engine alot ( but not dependent) i get the "opportunity" to see these people at work. I have had the pleasure time and time again of trying to figure out which contractor exactly stole this and that off my engine . It happens all of the time. Dont get me wrong...i have also worked with quite a few good contractors. But the majority dont belong there, and are there just for the money. They are unsafe, and have on a number of occasions been so much more of a hindrance then any help at all.

Just had to speak my peace about it!! If anyone knows anything concrete, please by all means let us know! I know that i am not the only one who has had to work this hard to get where i am at. And i know by all means that that i am not the only one who feels like this!! No hard feelings towards the contractors out there...I just call it like i see it.

Firedog266

Now, PSOB issues for contractors - that's real, emotional, HOT!
Seems like the first thing we have to do is identify who are "fire contractors"? Air tanker drivers: absolutely! Helicopter pilots: Yeah! Service truck drivers who crash and are killed enroute to a helibase? Fallers? Dozer Operators? Water Tender drivers? Caterers killed while driving to a fire assignment? Contract crews driving to Colorado from Oregon on a resource order??

Seems to me that we're all part of the fire organization, and deserve equal protection under PSOB!! The Armed Forces considers all their folks as "soldiers", whether an infantryman, jet jockey, cook, mechanic, nurse or clerk: all get equal benefits as part of the war-fighting operation.

On the other hand, the government agencies use contractors so that they don't have to deal with all the personnel issues involved with "employees", including PSOB. So, is there really an obligation to all "contractors" when they die in the fire suppression effort? Aren't those costs included in the contract cost? Maybe the "contract companies" should be taking out PSOB-level insurance policies on their employees in case they are killed on fire suppression activities? None of these comments are meant in any way to degrade the air tanker folks that have died over the years, but rather to stimulate some more of the excellent dialogue that opens our minds and keeps the juices flowing!

Mollysboy

You can start a new hot thread anytime you like. Think there's something that should be discussed? Go for it. We do request that people try to stick to issues and not make personal slams, not that a person with a moniker like Mollysboy would ever stoop to fisticuffs in the parking lot. HAW HAW Ab.

I am concerned that airtanker pilots and other aerial firefighters are not covered by Public Safety Officers' Benefits (PSOB) like other firefighters are. Please co-sponsor the bill introduced by Rep. Barbara Cubin of Wyoming to include aerial firefighters in this coverage.

thanks again. Its seems everyone agrees overwhelmingly to stick with the
structure job, and get the dept. involved, Thats exactly what Im trying to
do. We are the most urbanized FD in AZ., but Rodeo-Chediski opened everyones
eyes to the need to get involved. Plus, many of or 150 FFs want to do
wildland assignments, so it will hopefully really take off with the 2003
season.

It seems being in AZ is as good a place as any to be able to head to CA.
or NV, or NM, if Type I engines are needed. AZ is a bit behind with a
statewide mutual aid system, but 9/11 has really helped get one into place.
This will predominantly help the wildland fire side of things too of course.
great to see all the feedback on this site.

AZ FIREFIGHTER

BS!!!  I,  I,  I say Buuuuuuullsheeet!

Todd
(AT guys, I'm attacking an underfunded system, not implying that your contractors employed unsafe practices.) But now I'm back and typing again, how will FED FF get experience with fire if contractors do fire? Will we eventually have overhead and teams that are made up of contractors? Why don't we contract out law enforcement and the military? Again I say Bullsh*t!

That's the rumor - leave large fires to contract crews. Some rumor of leaving IA to contract crews too. We ain't gonna do it in R5. Ab.

We are apart of the City of Indianapolis, Indy Parks & Recreation from
Indianapolis, Indiana. We are responsible for more than 200 park
properties covering more than 19,000 acres of our county. One of our
parks consists of 4,341.88 acres of heavily wooded or grass areas (fuel
models 3 & 9.) Although we have 9 structural fire department that are
staffed will full time employees within our county, they all lack
wildland fire training and tools. Our fire team (limited to only 20
persons) was created due to prescribed fire operations. The team was
created just last year after several years as an unorganized group. We
receive our training from the Indiana Dept. of Natural Resources. This
is probably way too much but thought I would send it anyways.

Thanks, Shane

We put it up on Logos 8. Ab.

Search engines are not "smart" nor do they search for particularly meaningful words, just the ones that are submitted. We chose the ones we did because a search on those words usually yields stories about wildland fires -- or particular fires or fires in particular areas or air tankers. Sometimes a search on "wildfire" yields a story on pepper spray or something equally as strange. And sometimes there are overlaps because an article has the word wildfire in one sentence and forest fire in the next and wildland fire in the next. Journalists seem to like variety over specific meaning and may not use words based on their specific meaning unless they know wildland fire very well. Ab.

I agree with the CDF Capt. who was just hired and may lose his job to budget cutbacks that the age discrimination shown by the Fed'sis just that- age discrimination. I got into the fire world full time just a year and a half back after being militia for years. It took a lot of work on many folks' part just to get me hired and we had to go thru a lot of rigamarole because I was past 37 and did not have enough time fighting fires to collect three years of credit to drop me below the age limits. As anyone who has perused the hiring, primary/ secondary FF positions all have age limits in. This blocks a lot of hiring and also discriminates against the slightly older, well qualified folks. It also blocks advancement for those of us who did make it in through the efforts of others. I'd like to hear any thoughts from folks out there.

On another note, it's high time we get Congress to enact legislation for portal to portal. But with the current affairs of State/ Fed budgets, I won't hold my breath. Best thing to do is keep the letters going to your Representative and Senators.

Hope all have a good, safe and productive season.

Cache King

Thanks for that RD. Someone sent it in more than a month ago and we put it on the Links page halfway down under Federal. Useful site. Ab.

The Smith Fire (Norco, 45mi from LA) is reported 100% contained at 151 acres as of noon yesterday for those who haven't heard. This morning the handful of personnel are continuing patrol.

The Pacific Fire (Malibu) is 100 % contained at 1300 acres as of 6AM. Still a lot of personnel on that fire (1,294) and they're improving line, mopping up and rehabbing. Demob today. Favorable weather conditions and ample resources help.

The Airport Fire (Catalina Island) was reported 45% contained at 245 acres last night at 6PM with minimal to no spread. 116 personnel were on the fire then. Projected containment at that time was for today at 5 PM.

Strider

Thanks Strider. Readers, remember to check the South Ops News and Notes site for possible updates if and when new fires break or to follow fires still burning. They do a pretty good job of keeping up with the year round fire situation in SoCal. Thanks you guys and gals. Ab.

I did not notice if this was posted so this maybe old news. The following link is the NEW Forest Service online hiring/application program. Those interested in Seasonal jobs for 2003 will need to go through this process. This web site will allow folks to set up job profiles so that they can be notified of jobs when available, they can look at current job announcements and apply. This new procedure seems to be user friendly compared to the old method. One, NO HARD COPY C FORM to do. As well as the online app, everything is done online. The fire jobs can be found on menu 3 under announcements. When looking at the announcements you can check off a SHOPPING CART (don’t ask why!) for each position interested in. Then it will place all your pertinent info as well as the job announcement stuff onto the application. Well good luck everyone!!

www.avuedigitalservices.com/usfs/applicant.html

Laguna Jim

PS: Ab, This might be a link to add to your LINKS page. I for one will never be able memorize this one..

I'll add it to the jobs page under federal. Ab.

One of the Abs has created a new Wildland Fire News Page here at wildlandfire.com.

This new page allows choices among our standard FIRE topics for search, such as Wildfire, Forest fire, Wildland Fire, and Brush Fire. In addition, it lets us add new "current events" search topics as interest and articles dictate. Under current events we've included such topics as Malibu Fire, Air Tankers, and Australia Fires.

Happy Reading,
Ab.

Hey Ab "What's the difference between a forestry tech and a wildland firefighter "- about 3 bucks??

JB

Readers, any other answers to this question? Ab.

Oh, now I remember, he's the famous Texas wildcatter who could blast those burning and blowing oil wells into submission whether on land or sea. Yep, my Texas relatives told me about him and his crew. Different kind of wildland firefighter, fer sure. Put out rig fires in the Gulf. Even went to Norway and put one out in the North Sea. His most famous tour - he was called to Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War to cap all the raging gushers and burners there.

Hey Boo or Keith, got any leads on photos and stories for this young'un? Seems to me there must have been a National Geographic or Discover article on his brand of wildfire fighting. I remember some TV special too 'bout 9 years ago. It's a TEXAS thang. Ab.

Thanks. Ab.

Is the grass really greener? Most structural guys have an interest in wildfire, and most wildfire guys want the security of structural careers. Looks to me you have the best of both worlds. Push your department in the wildfire direction, and deploy as often as you can with them. I wouldn't risk the security of a union gig like that to play in the woods. Most departments pay better than the GS scale anyways.

I have a buddy in Spokane, he pushed the department to get more involved on the wildfire side of the coin. Now his sole job during the season is wildfire and interface protection. the rest of the year he works his 8-10 days and takes it easy. looks like fun to me.

this was probably of no help but i am bored, so here's my 2 cents.

Later
Eric

I'm a full time Arizona municipal firefighter, who has a huge desire to be more in
the wildland side of things. Part time work in summer, but need more. Would
I be crazy to leave my high paying city job??? Anyone ever leave consider
leaving a city job to try and go full time with BLM or FS??? I have plenty
of wildland quals, as well as EMT and Haz. Mat. Tech. But, Im only getting
older, and concerned about retirement benefits down the road too (15 years?)
Need feedback for my own research/convincing, if the opportunity ever comes
up.

thanks!
AZ fire fighter

Malibu wildfire threatens homes amid fierce Santa Ana winds

Fierce winds topple power lines, spark Malibu wildfire

Arsonist faces 12 years for Colo. wildfire

C, If you or any other reader could let us know then the online article comes up, we'd appreciate it. Thanks. Ab.

The Smith Fire at Norco (Riverside Co, 45 mi E of LA) is still reported to be 150 acres and is 50% contained. 250 homes and a number of outbuildings and watershed are threatened. 143 personnel are assigned to the fire. Containment may be difficult if the Santa Anas continue to fan the fire in flashy river bottom fuels.

Strider

Thank you Gary. Thanks also to MTDC for the training information on 30 mi Lessons Learned. You might want to consider discussing the role group cohesion plays in fire fatalities. The Crew Cohesion paper is available through the Docs Worth Reading on the Archives page and on the Site Map and HERE (about 300K pdf file - not too big). Forewarned is forearmed. Ab.

Yesterday:
The Latigo/Corral Fires at Malibu had 293 personnel on it at its height. Ended up being 20 acres and 5 acres. Hopped on it quick. 100% contained.

Today:
Airport Fire on Catalina Island was 75 acres at 1300 and 20% contained - 88 personnel. They had to get Navy Hover Craft to transfer personnel and equipment to the island.

The Pacific Fire - Anacapa View Dr and Trancas Cyn Rd (Malibu, LA Co) - 150 acres at 1500, 0% contained.

Smith Fire threatening the Norco community (Riverside Co) was 150 acres at 1800. This is a wind driven fire with sheeting and short distance spotting. 357 personnel on it. ATs and helos helped protect structures.

Looks like LA Co has its hands full.
Strider

Thanks Strider
Hey All,
Looks like South Ops has the 209's posted on their sitreport (Freezing's post below) that confirms Strider's info. It's nice to be able to see the details.
Ab.

Forest Service worker pleads guilty to arson in Colo wildfire
www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0106colo-wildfire-ON.html

emt_micah

Must be real news, I saw it on CNN.

Here's another:
Mansions Threatened By Malibu Wildfires
www.ktvu.com/news/1870686/detail.html

Ab.

Tom from AG

Another pair of photos with an unusual perspective. Put em on the Helicopters 9 photo page. Thanks Mike and Tom. Ab.

So Cal FF

You SoCal firefighters --> be safe. The windy Fire Weather Watch days shout WATCH OUT.

On general program development and user interface making navigation or training difficult:
In my opinion, this is the most significant problem with all wildland fire programs. One response here suggested the MIRPS un-intuitive interface was due to the "built-by-committee" design. I disagree, a group of people (hopefully subject matter experts) are necessary to provide the required program capabilities, oversight, and progress. MIRPS does function, to a certain degree. Where MIRPS and other fire programs fail is in their basic graphical interface, beginning with the opening screen (window). MS Windows, in some form or another has a monopoly on pc operating systems. There are various standards that all successful, commercial Windows based programs adhere to. There are standard Menus, Icon Bars, and Hot-Keys, among many others. Sub-items on the main menus may be program specific, and there may be more or less icons available, but an experienced Windows user will know where they should be able to find them. These universal standards, supporting a common graphical user interface, resulting in more effective user performance due to quicker learning ability, are an alien concept in our current program versions.

Specific MIRPS quirks: centered text on navigation buttons.
The English culture isn't used to reading text in this manner. Shift all the labels to be formatted left. To Save or Not to Save and where is that darn button anyway? All MIRPS users know what that means. Put the buttons, the SAME buttons, in the same places on the various screens. Nothing complicated about that. Currently, some screens are so different, it's like entering a whole new program, except for the "road to MIRPS" button, gott'a like that one. But why a double-click to make a selection from its menu? Ya ever watch a new user sit and click that menu once, then sit and wait? And if only there was a hot-key combo for it.

On the ROSS system "overloading" or "bogging" down with excessive data or traffic:
This should not be an issue. Properly designed and implemented software or hardware will not suffer these symptoms. One of the biggest, most successful, and dependable web sites around is EBay. Ya think the ROSS system database or user traffic, even in the most hectic times, can compare to the volume of business EBay routinely handles? If ROSS bogs down due to content or traffic, it's a software hardware design flaw. I should think this issue would have been at the very top of the specifications list.

"Bottle necks":
From my point of view, the biggest delay in processing (inter-region) resource requests are the GACCs and NICC, with NICC being the largest time sink. It isn't the ordering units or the dispatch centers finally receiving the requests, and it is seldom the result of any computers or software used. I'm not blaming the GACCs or NICC, they do what they can with what they have.

You dispatchers know how when things get real busy that your GACC may just give up on MIRPS and fax out a shopping list of overhead resource orders? Yours may not, but mine does. I like the idea, it saves the GACC time by allowing them to shotgun the outstanding orders to all forests instead of slowwwwwly MIRPing a handfull here and there, then sitting back, waiting for a response, then doing it all over again.

Since I am not yet real familiar with ROSS, maybe it already exists, but if not, I suggest: For overhead, equipment, and supply orders, have a report available in ROSS so dispatch centers can go and view a list of outstanding orders. Why wait for NICC to dole out the orders to GACCs, then to ECCs who don't have the resources in the first place? Allow the dispatch centers to go shopping online for assignments. Better yet, have the report on a site so all fire going personnel can see what's available. They may be statused as unavailable, but see a position they would be willing to modify their status for.

An overhead resource sees an assignment they like, they call their dispatch center, the dispatch center fills the order in ROSS and the requesting unit immediately sees the request has been filled. Nice huh? No GACCs or NICC to slow things down.

I imagine there are those who won't like the above idea of overhead selecting or "cherry-picking" assignments and that the GACCs and NICC would feel a terrible loss of control. But let's face it, for quite a few years now, overhead has become increasingly selective on where they will and won't go anyway. Especially non-operations overhead, yes, and dispatchers too. As for a loss of control, each forest/district/unit has their own drawdown policies in place and they could still enforce them. Just because an overhead wanted an assignment doesn't mean they would be allowed to go. Coordination between the dispatch center and their GACC would keep GACC drawdown to acceptable levels. Closest resources concept? Let's see, I had a radio operator from Maine last year and I'm on the West Coast. This issue could be overcome with a time delay per order. After three hours of availability, the closest filling unit gets the position. Or how about local units bidding on assignments, what if a sending agency would agree to pay transportation costs?

And that's enough for now, I don't know where that last sentence came from, I've most likely had too many cups of coffee this morning and my imagination is running away. But, as one of my leaders is fond of saying, "Get outt'a the box!". Sorry for the length of this one Ab!

ECC1

Thanks for offering suggestions for solutions. Ab.

You can find the links to thirtymile on the FS Fire and Aviation Site. Here's the new link to "Lessons from the Thirtymile Fire". There's a table of contents that has links to the chronology. Also, if you click on their "next" page, there is a link to the Thirtymile Fire Investigation Report. It's in pdf and is fairly large (7000+ K), but it also has the time breakdown you describe.

I just corrected our links to the Final Investigation Report (pdf file). I find that the Final Investigation Report is now Final #2 and I can't find links to some of the other documents like the Executive Summary, the Management Evaluation, and the Index of the 30 mile Investigation including the 10/16 Amendments. Does anyone have updated links on those? Can someone from MTDC or Boise fill us in on how the Final Investigation Report changed when it became the Final, Final Investigation Report? Presumably the Amendments etc were incorporated.

Ab.

Todd

Time: February 15, 2003
   5:30-6:30 Happy Hour Cash Bar
   6:30-7:30 Buffet Dinner
   7:30 till ?
Place: Palmdale Ramada Inn, 300 W Plamdale Blvd, Plamdale CA.
(To reserve a room call 661-273-1200.)
Dinner Cost: $22
To RSVP call 661-296-9710 ask for Margo.
Make check payable to Sean Lawler.

Information for contacts:
Jo Hall
Angeles NF
Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District Office
30800 Bouquet Canyon Road
Saugus, CA 91390
(661) 296-9714
jrhall@fs.fed.us

Home: (661) 263-8218
Cell: (661) 609-1741
jo@komodojo.com

! Please note: I am in search of photos, stories, etc. for video
presentation. Please contact me at the numbers listed above.
Thanks ~ jo

Reservations and Guest Speaking:
Margot Butler
Angeles NF
Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District Office
30800 Bouquet Canyon Road
Saugus, CA 91390
(661) 296-9714
mbutler@fs.fed.us

Ceremony Coordination:
Shawn Lawler
Angeles NF
Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers Ranger District
Big Pines Information Center
Wrightwood, CA
(760) 249-6005

Also, I'd like to know have you any more Gazelle helicopter photos? If yes, please send me a list. Thanks in advance for reply.

Best regards from Croatia,
Stipe Zivaljic

Hey Papa, you reading? That's your photo and I can't find your e-mail address to see if you're interested. Abby.

Computer programmers know how to write programs, they don't know anything about resource ordering or ICS (unless they happen to have a fire background). We have agency representatives that work with the Ross people to communicate our needs. We even have retired FS folks that work for Ross. My two cents would be for Ross to start as a communications link between the GACCs and NIFC. Having worked at NICC, I have seen the famous resource ordering "bottleneck" first hand. I think once it's on line and all the bugs are worked out, Ross will be great (probably two years after the start- up). I dabble a bit in programming myself and a program such as ROSS is a fairly complex task (lots of linked tables, screens, menus and queries, not to mention reports).

In Region 5 we also use Mirps to aid us in our initial attack. GACCs generally don't do IA. In fact my first assignment to a GACC, I kept looking for the radio. They don't have any (R-5 has the way cool intercom system which connects all the command centers and GACCS). Ross is not an IA tool. Also when Mirps goes down, we revert back to the old ICS 259-1 cards and the telephone and smoke signals. In the ever more complex world of dispatching, Ross is just another one of the programs that we need to learn.

In region 5 we will probably be using both Mirps and Ross at the same time. It might be time for me to go back out in the field.

Another R-5 Dispatcher

Another loss for the FS'ers is Tom Hutchinson. Tom retired 1/3/03 as DFMO (Division Chief for the newer dirt throwers) on the Angeles, Mojave River District (Saugus, Valyermo and a piece of the Tujunga District for you gray beards). Tom was one heck of an IC on CIIMT 4. The green truckers will miss his expertise and knowledge. Good luck Hutch!

djchief

Oh no, not Charlie, too! So many retirements just now.

I heard that Hutch, Tom Hutchison, is retiring in February, but maybe that's just when his party will be celebrated. I got a request for some photos for that. Anyone know his retirement date for sure? I was at his party when he tenured out as CIIMT 4 IC. It was grand. What a fine guy and knowledgeable leader! Another one of those fire dogs who have helped me fill in the many chasms in my fire knowledge. Well, I might have to be looking through my pictures for several to embarrass him with. Hmmmmm, Flaps Down, must find that one.... His team was the last one that closed out the Big Bar Complex in the rain at Pookie. Some stories there...

Hutch, if you're reading, I love ya Dude! You too, Charlie Gripp. <smooch> Heh, Charlie, I won't have to suffer any more safety admonitions from you at least in a professional capacity! Just kidding, of course!

Thanks to you both for your help.

On another note, I'm looking for some logos from the past for a project. I need pictures of the logos or patches of the Los Prietos from 1967 and the El Cariso from 1969. I could also use any photos of Hayfork FS fire from around 1971.

Thanks All,
Mellie

WP, you're right about Joe's belt buckle. <chuckle>

Check the next post on Hutch's retirement. Ab.

Good luck Charlie or sometime known as 'olde slippery'!!

djchief

Happy New Year to all! Here are a couple more pictures from the AG file.

Tom from AG

Thanks Tom, nice Rappel Sunburst, Pines Fire Silhouette, and neat one of the AG and LP Crews after extinguishing part of the Sudden Fire. Ab put 'em on the AG Flight Crew page.

Thanks contributors. We'll put up some more tomorrow.

Ab

I also wish you the best in retirement from the FS.

I can remember the first time I met you and your team, I was DIVS on a campaign fire and had worked with a number of teams before yours. I was very impressed with your style of interacting. In transition you got all the DIVS together, sat down with us in the field and asked what you could do to support us and the communities we had been working with. Very professional way of smoothing transition which can be a "watch out" time.

FireWolf

Thanks for helping introduce me to the team side and serious issues of the fire world. I'll never forget the "tutoring" and warm encouragement you provided me back in 1999 and early 2000. Wow, and many thanks for answering my phone calls thru the years, even when I've had oh-so-many questions.

Joe, I know we're not really loosing you from our fire world, you're just changing your role within it. Still, we have all gotten used to counting on you. At least I hope you aren't going completely away, Mr High Pockets! After all, what is there but FIRE?

Mellie

PS. I just had to share these photos from the Big Bar Complex at Willow Camp, 1999. Good meeting at Denny toward the end of the Big Bar. I liked it that you didn't even flinch at the gunshots off in the distance. Lots of laughs with team members and others. Nice lassoing the legs of all those willing who walked by, specially the "girls". Did ya keep that up? Maybe you're going to join the rodeo circuit when you grow up? Ah, your retirement makes me a little nostalgic, my friend.

I know some of you have some current fire management issues to discuss here, so I will try not to take up too much of everyone's time.

It is Great to hear from (and talk to) some of you old fire dogs from the past. I am glad that some of you are still alive and out there. I was wondering for a while if I were the only one. I enjoyed hearing from Bob G., the Ortega Hwy/Trabuco/Cleveland N.F. Engine Crew veteran (now that was a gruesome job assignment if there ever was one) and his experience on F.S. Engine Crews in the 70's. I always had tremendous respect for those boys, even more so after I later had the wonderful experience of humping a few progressive hose lays of my own up some vertical, rattlesnake infested, brush-choked slopes in 110 degree heat.

To ret. ICIIMT Team 4: I am likely the Harv Dabling you know, since I did in fact get out of Utah State (the University, not the prison) in 1973. Contact me at harveyd@trib.com if you want. Now I'm curious who you are.

To John S. from Napa: Really enjoyed hearing of your experience with Del Rosa Shots..... especially since it actually pre-dated my own time. It just kills me that you guys had to purchase your own safety gear for the fireline. And I thought we had it bad! But as for your old Foreman Jim Burner --it sure sounds like his fireline savvy and good judgment was right on that day. I'm sure you would agree, he may have saved your lives that day. I'll take a foreman with 'good judgement' over one with 'unbridled bravado' any day, right? BTW, the guys at El Cariso always had the highest respect for the Del Rosa crews (we also thought a lot of Redding Hot Shots, and Los Prietos. There seemed to be some pretty severe friction between us and the Oak Grove Hot Shots though.) But we always thought Del Rosa was top notch....real blue chippers. They could damn well cut some serious fireline in ahurry, and many of us were in awe of how they never carried more than two-quarts of water with them. I myself always carried three quarts, and usually had a smokejumper canteen stashed in my pack, and even then I sometimes ran low. Water was so crucial at times....worth its weight in gold to a person. At times, I saw fistfights break out over drinking water on some of the inmate crews. I don't know how Del Rosa survived those hotline assignments (in those full canvas Filson vests, no less) with only two canteens, but they did. I always thought at least one or two of them would topple over from heat exhaustion, but they never did. That two-quart drinking water limit was a pride thing with them. They had cajones, I'll tell you, those early 70's Del Rosa guys. They were tough.

Ab: I agree with Old Fire Guy that a 'Lost and Found Firefighters' section would be nice.
For all of the rest of you: Good luck in all you do and be safe out there on the lines this summer. I'll be pampering my pudgy worn out middle aged bod with a cold beer and air conditioning somewhere, but part of my heart will be out there with all of you. You can hold your heads extremely high as to how you make your living.

Since I am no longer employed by an government agency, and because there are only one or two guys out there with reason (and probable desire) to kill me, I will go ahead and sign off with my own real name. Thanks for allowing me to look back a little bit on the past.

Harv Dabling

An' Ab was sure that had to be a moniker.

I am a new CDF Fire Captain hired from the "Open List" and I am waiting for the other shoe to drop regarding the next budget and we all know who will be the first to go. In order for us to be hired the CDF had to obtain a special provision from the Governor's Office since there was no signed budget last June when we were notified of our selection as new Captains.

To the point. Because of the uncertainty of the current job situation I did recently apply to a federal fire agency for a permanent full time Engine Captain position. I made the Cert and was invited for an interview and tour of the facility, I was impressed with the squared away crew, I could be happy working for them. Then my age came up and the federal Primary Coverage Enhanced 6c rule or law or whatever is really is. Actually this very issue was discussed in depth at CDF Academy last summer among all the new Captains since the youngest among our new Captain BFC 152 class was 36 years of age. There were 22 men in our class and the age range was 36 to 56. We discussed the fact that all of us had come from the USFS, BLM, Municipal, County, and Private fire agencies and that age discrimination was definitely a fact in this federal Primary Coverage law. Scuttlebutt among the CDF brass was that the federal law was age discrimination and would not hold water in a court of law.

After the interview I was told that they wanted to hire me but the age was an issue. I told them that apparently it wasn't since I was offered a PFT USFS Captain job last May in R5. I showed the FMO my offer/acceptance letter from the USFS personnel office, ( I did not take the May job since the CDF made a better offer), and he and I forwarded it to the regional personnel office. The personnel office manager called me and said that they could hire me as a fire temp but not as a PFT because I was over 37. They said they could go ahead and hire me but when the paperwork caught-up they would have to let me go, (personnel even said that someone made it for 4 years until the paperwork caught-up and they hade to terminate the individual). This FMO was not very pleased with the Primary Coverage rule and said that his crew needed the experience that I and others my age have. He is correct they do need experienced personnel, the CDF saw this fact and that is why they hired us as well. Anyway this is what I have experienced with the feds and their hiring procedures versus the state and their personnel policies.

All I want is stability and the knowledge that I will be able to provide for my family in six months and in ten or fifteen years, so far no guarantees!!

Capn 152

Have a Happy and Safe New Year, Everyone.
(M, glad you're getting better. All the wl ff dolls I've seen look
a very little bit manic while apparently looking solid. haha)

Tahoe Terrie

See the next post. Ab.

In '64 on a Southern California forest, believe it was the Cozy Dell fire, I saw the El Cariso deploy. Del Rosa and El Cariso were to drop off a road, work down hill to the fire. Frequently our crews would worked side by side on the same piece of line. There was a strong feeling of competition between the crews. This was at night. Our foreman (Jim Burner) refused to take us into what was, to him, an unsafe situation. We stood by the side of the road as the 2 El Cariso crews walked by and went over the side. I can't say we felt real proud at that moment. Later the fire made a run and we watched as El Cariso deployed their shelters. By the way, our "Lead Hook" that summer was Joe Cruz (Humboldt State class of 1966) who retired two years ago as National Director of Fire and Aviation Management.

John S
Napa, CA

Welp, enough from this old guy.
Sign me: retired IC CIIMT team 4

Welcome ol' retiring fire guy. Nice to have you sharing info here. Ab.

Tim

Thanks for the input, Tim. We just put 'em up as we get 'em. Anyone else got info on this photo? The sender of that photo is in "use it or loose it" vacation mode and still has time away. We'll ask him when he gets back. Ab.

WILDCAD is Great!!! Check it out if your center has it. MIRPS is better after 5 year of operating. ROSS is a not real new, some GACCs have been using it for a year or so. The main issue (not problem) is training all dispatchers, temp dispatchers, and ALL the expanded dispatchers. Some of those expanded folks only go out once or twice a year, some every other year. Militia so to speak. The tech. is there and I truly believe it will be a great program, it is just going to take time to teach those who need to know it. All programs have a learning curve and ROSS is just at the beginning of that curve.

I suggest if you are really interested or just curious ask your local dispatch if you can come in for a day and see the programs and how they run. I think all firefights should spend a day or so in dispatch seeing what all we do. Better yet ask for a two week assignment.

Help any?

R3 Dispatcher.

In regards to ROSS, the biggest problem was teaching the developers (Lockheed Martin I believe) the ins and outs of dispatching. Also, the ROSS team tried to incorporate as many applicable business rules into the system as possible.

Then there's the whole issue of importing qualifications. With ROSS, when a resource is filed, you can look at it and see specific info about it. For example, if you order a T3 engine, you'll be able to see if it has extras like SCBAs, CAFS, and the like. With overhead, you'll be able to see all the persons quals, not just what you ordered them as. Well this created quite a stir. Most everyone has all this information already loaded into either Redcard (FS), IQS, (states) or IQCS ( DOI agencies) and nobody really wants to reinput thousands of qualification records into ROSS that they already have current in another system. So a big deal that finally seems to be solved is that ability to "import" qualification records from the individual qualifications systems into ROSS.

Another thing that has been a thing the ROSS team has worked on is making the system user friendly. By that I mean putting things in places that make sense. Instead of making it so you have to open a new screen for every little thing, you will flow in a logical progression from screen to screen.

On the ROSS website, you can follow the training links to an online tutorial that gives a pretty good overview of the system. It's a beta (trial version) but it gives a good overview in plain english. Great for those management types who know what Dispatch is, but that's about it. http://elara.nwcg.gov/ROSS_Web_Training/frameset.htm.

EMT_Micah
in the Eastern Area

BTW Happpy Holidays to all.

NorCal Tom

FYI, Ab labeled the photos (could'n't resist the wheeeeeee photo from the helmet cam); you can view these rapper photos on the Heli 8 photo page.

Photos from the Moose Fire:
Flathead HS Signal: A Flathead Hotshot guides a pilot in for a bucket drop on the Moose Fire.
Bucket Drop: The drop.
Flathead HS: Members of the Flathead Hotshots await further instructions in their safety zone.
212 Drop: A 212 makes a bucket drop on the Moose.
Huckleberry Lookout: All wrapped up.
Inversion: This peaceful morning inversion shot is an ironic contrast to some of the intense fire behavior seen on the Moose Fire.
Weather Station: Weather station set up on the fire.

View them on the Moose Fire photo page. Some nice ones. Ab.

The Angeles in 1970 also issued the orange fire shirts and bullard metal hardhats. I also remember that the Captain's (foreman's as they were referred to) of the engine back in 1970 did not receive hazard pay on fires where the rest of the crew did!

Bob G

We are thankful for the year gone by, miss friends who are no longer with us, and pray that all who fight wildland fire will come home to their families (home families and our wildland fire family) in the coming year.

Family and Freedoms.
Thanks for your service to humanity and to our country, Wildland Firefighters.
Carry on...

from the Abs at wildlandfire.com

I will try and explain the mysterys of WILDCAD and ROSS.

WILDCAD is a computer aided dispatch program. The response areas are listed and all resources, personnel engines, etc. FS, BLM, BIA. and cooperators and contactors, and their locations. When the dispatcher enters the location of the fire, a standard response will appear on the computer. The closest equipment comes up on the list. That is why when engines move around dispatch wants to know, not because we are nosey -- it is because we want to send the closest equipment to the fire. The program in also sent up from second and third response.

CDF has a similar program CALCAD.
WILDCAD is also used for any incident that happens, fire, law, campers lost etc. Very helpful when dispatchers have to do the year end report of how many incident and who went. Very easy to enquire about any item that is entered into the reports.

ROSS stands for Resource Order Status System. Electronic version of the resource cards. So dispatcher will have a better idea who is available. Also the GACCs will know which forest has what. It is a smart enough program so if an engine gets committed then it also makes everyone on that engine committed.

MIRPS is a early version of ROSS used only in R5.

That is the ReadersDigest version, short and sweet. (Any Questions?)

Dispatcher R3