"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
January, 2003
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 01/31 |
More information on the death and life of IAFF 16th District Vice
President Nick Davila.
www.iaff16.org/news.cfm (use
IE 5+ or a browser higher than Netscape 4.7) |
| 01/31 |
To the French Guy,
Conair, a company based in Abbottsford B.C. Canada, has numerous Fire
Cats on contract to the Canadian Government. They bought up excess US Navy
S-2 Trackers and modified them as retardant ships. The modifications were
so great that (or I am told) they are no longer considered the same ship
as the Tracker. Last time I was at the airport they still had about 50
plus Trackers in a storage yard on the east side of the runway, near the
retardant base, still in Navy gray and with wings folded up, just like
they were parked on a Carrier.
When we order mud and the Fire Cats are sent, they come in groups of
three, they do not hold as much as a DC 6-7-8 or P-3, but three ship have
an equivalent amount of retardant as one of the big ships. The ship are
amazing, they have so much power they can put mud in places where the big
ship will not dare to go.
Hope this helps.
WP
|
| 01/31 |
"Lefteye" is probably right about some agency getting nailed
by some lawyer when someone dies taking the Pack test. But........let's
look at the existing process, and the alternatives (both in the testing,
and on the fireline):
If a person is open and honest in taking the health screening, it
eliminates 90%+ of the risk. And staying/getting in shape for the test
should eliminate most other risks. Yeah, there are folks that have a
genetic inclination to a heart attack or other serious health risk, and
(a) don't know it; and (b) wouldn't show up in most physical exams.
On the other hand, I hope that we can all support the concept of
testing folks before we send us/them out on a wildfire assignment. And
personally, if I'm gonna throw a heart attack, I'd rather it be in the
controlled environment of a Pack Test site than on some of the God-awful
places on the side of a mountain in the dark of night where I occasionally
end up during a normal fire season.
So, what are the reasonable, practical, economic, and efficient
alternatives to insuring that we have a fit firefighting force in the
wildland.....?
Mollysboy
|
| 01/31 |
BIG NEWS. There is a type 1 incident mgmt team being mobilized
to Australia. Aaron Gelobter will be the IC, unknown if it is all
of Aaron's team or an assortment of players.
NONAME |
| 01/31 |
Another engine for Engines
5 photo page:
Here's 2 pics of a new KME Type 3 we recently purchased for Green Valley
Lake, Station 129, San Bernardino County.
MB
|
| 01/31 |
MG requested photos of ordnance on the ground near fires. This shot is
from
the Timpee Fire, June 2001. Not exactly a shot of ordnance, but we weren't
inclined to go looking around.
This may also be of interest to Shooter. This was the sign I referred to
in
December, and finally unearthed the photo.
JerseyBoy
Put it on the Miscellaneous 2
photo page. Ab.
|
| 01/31 |
JerseyBoy,
Tell your friends to go to the links
page of wildlandfire.com and click on the USDA Forest Service National
Page and they will find every Forest in the Nation. You will be able to
get some phone numbers to the Forest you desire.
If I was one of them I would get the numbers to the Forest I would like to
work, then call them and ask all the questions of hiring you can think of
-to the Forest you have picked. They should give you information on jobs
and how many positions they have open.
Make sure they talk to someone in fire like an Division or Battalion
Chief. Hope this helps you out.
R5-Recruiter |
| 01/31 |
Ab-
maybe some of the readers can help out. i understand most of the FS new
hiring website, but i can't seem to figure out where you find out the
important info: such as where the opening is, and who to contact about it.
this isn't such a problem for me, as i have a job for this coming season,
but i have some friends from here in the east who would like to go out
west. however, they can never find any info on who to talk to or even how
many positions a forest may have. and being geographically isolated from
forests makes it tough to get info.
thanks,
JerseyBoy |
| 01/31 |
I wil agree that the pack test is a good test of physicl ability.
However, I think it is only a matter of time before one of the government
agencies sponsoring this test will be taken to task in court by a loved
one of someone that has died taking or preparing for the test. It seems
odd to me that a government agency would continue to sponsor and use a
test that has had numerous fatalities assoiciated with it. Mark my words,
Uncle Sam will pay the piper one of these days. Lefteye |
| 01/31 |
I apologize for not making my-self clear. I've been in the game alot
longer than everyone thinks, I fully understand and use them (10 and 18)
all the time.
-AK-
P.S. Thanks for the awesome web site. |
| 01/31 |
From France:
Dear sir,
I am looking for informations about the gumman CS2F firecat and links with
potential sellers
If you can help me I will realy appreciate
In the expectation of your reply,
best regards
Gabriel Kaeppelin
Ab would be happy to forward a message.
|
| 01/31 |
Firetool
The fiberglass handles that I know of are from a company called NUPLA.
They
make replacement tool handles, as well as complete tools. I have seen a
catalog, but I don't know if they have a website.
Central Arizona is in the 80's today!!!!
See ya
AZfirefighter |
| 01/31 |
Will Puller
I take what that "Helicopter Type Person" said as an insult. I'm
a
crewboss for an aggressive helitack crew. We always follow LCES when we
slam line. Yes we do get alot of IA's and we take the rules of
engagement very serious. I will admit that helitack has a bad
reputation that they are a bunch of slackers. However my crew and
several other crews out there are out to change that image. I really
hope that this person was just joking.
Flameboy |
| 01/31 |
Ab,
Some people have been posting about wanting to see the new USFS Mod 62
Engine, So I have sent a few pics in. This is the Pierce 4x4 model, taken
@ Pierce West in Ontario CA. This particular Engine is in Red..... Kinda
of weird to see a USFS Rig in red. Guess it could be someone elses truck,
but who would by a USFS spec truck besides the USFS???
Truth is, it is a Sales Demo.
JC
Put 'em on Engines
5 photo page. Ab. |
| 01/31 |
Ab, Here's a picture of our engine.
Idaho Department of Lands Type 6.
AS
Put it on Engines
5 photo page. Ab. |
| 01/31 |
Ab, our engine crew 66 logo. JJ
Put it on the Logo
8 page. Nice one. Ab. |
| 01/30 |
Ab,
I was at a training session a while ago and the subject of the 10 and 18
plus LCES came up. After a lengthy discussion, a Helicopter type person
got up and said that the version of LCES was different from Lookouts,
Communications, Escape Routes and Safety Zones.
He swore that the Helicopter version of LCES is:
Lawn Chairs
Coolers
Electrolytes
Shade
Tell me it ain't so. I know the heli-attack crews are well supplied but
don't they have to follow the same guidelines as the rest of us??
Will Puller
heliheavn.jpg
oopsie floodheavn.jpg |
| 01/30 |
Ab - I'm deeply apologetic: forwarding an Email from someone who has
something good to say about smokejumpers!
Dick
~~~~~~~~~~~~ from OZ
Hi all
Just a quick update.
After a harrowing day had by all with atrocious conditions and a 27 km
fire run that even threatened the IMT at Swifts Creek and evacuated
OMEO, the good lord has smiled upon us and set us 6 mm of rain. Not
enough to put the fires out but enough to allow 2 days of respite and
hard work to strengthen the containment lines. Have just talked to the
IMT and their plan for the day is to recon the fire, find out what it is
doing and strengthening the dozer lines. They say this is a very
naughty fire as it does nothing that it is supposed to do.
When I go up on sunday hopefully everything will be in place and will
only be a case of building on the good work and not undo what everyone
has done over the last month.
Your smoke jumpers spoke very well during their interviews and
have made some good relationships here. One guy said that he has seen
some pretty bad fire behaviour in his time, but this fire is something
special and out of the ordinary. Its great when people still learn
after all the years of combating the beast and treat it with the respect
it deserves, before you go and beat its bloody head in.
Must go as I'm duty.
Take care and remember fire fighters watch out when they are unfamiliar
with weather and local fire behaviour.
Regards
G |
| 01/30 |
Today we lost another great person. Nick Davila was the 16th District
Vice
President of the IAFF. The 16th District represents ALL federal
firefighters. His loss is a loss to ALL of us. Its hard to find someone so
dedicated to the rights of Federal Firefighters. I'll provide more info as
it becomes available.
Here's the info from the IAFF 16th District Web Site:
http://www.iaff16.org/news.cfm
With the deepest regret and sorrow General President Schaitberger and
General Secretary Treasurer Bollon report to you the death of IAFF 16th
District Vice President Nick Davila. Brother Davila was killed earlier
this
evening in an automobile accident in San Antonio, Texas. Our thoughts and
prayers are with his family. Funeral Service information will follow.
Richard M. Duffy
Assistant to the General President
International Association of Fire Fighters
~~~~~~~~
SoCalCapt |
| 01/30 |
Hello, my name is Brian Janes and I work for the USDA Forest Service in
Six
Rivers National Forest. I am looking for any information about the Johnson
Fire of 2002 in the Fish Lake National Forest in Utah, partically about
Tom's Tornado. I know that at least 2 crews video taped the event and I
would like a copy for fire science study. This fire whirl which turned
into
a virtual tornado was like nothing else ever seen. If anyone knows where I
might get a copy, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your help
and have a safe season.
Sincerely,
Brian |
| 01/30 |
The Historical Wildland Firefighter Fatalities web page has been
updated to include the 2002 Safety Gram information. The three
reports have the information sorted by year, accident type, and
state. Here's the URL:
www.nifc.gov/reports/index.html
S |
| 01/30 |
I agree with Backburnfs. Not being able to go out on fires and having to
do 50 pushups for every wrong answer motivated me to learn them all in 30
minutes.
-AK-
But having the 10 "memorized" doesn't mean you understand
and can use them. Ab. |
| 01/30 |
Need a bit of assistance...(Please don't roll your
eyes until you read the whole email!)
I'm an ex-Forest Service employee setting up a T2
Water Tender.
Due to my Forest Service training of trying to save
money wherever possible -- does anyone have (or know
where) I could acquire some used plumbing apparatus?
Things like reducers, adapters, a bit of hose, that
kind of stuff. And a port-a-tank. I can buy it new,
but I want to try to save a few bucks.
Thanks.
New Guy
Ab will forward any message on. |
| 01/30 |
HC,
A "New Learner" if properly motivated, say 50 pushups for every
wrong
answer, can learn the 10 SFO's in any form in a matter of days. I believe
there is a direct link from the arms to the brain when it comes to helping
people "chunk the info from short into long term memory".
Another great motivational tool is "If you can't learn the 10 and 18
and
can't tell me what they are in order, verbatium, you can't go to a
fire."
I have seen both of these motivational methods used with great success for
a huge number of "sequential" and other wise processors over the
past 28
years.
Call me old fashioned, but it works.
Backburnfs
haw haw. Ab. |
| 01/30 |
To M from CA:
Couldn't agree more with your assessment of outsourcing....However you are
wrong about fire jobs not being affected. If you read the details of the
(ahem) OMB "expert" below (gawd I nearly choked) you will notice
one of his
remarks to the effect of- if FS employees go on fires for a couple months
their regular job is not needed. At meetings with employees on our forest
it was explained that even if a Gov't employee is successful in bidding
for
their own job, they can only perform those things in the job description
they bid on. That means if they are, for example, an engineering employee
(say an equipment operator) and they also are qualified in Ground support,
they will no longer be allowed to go on fires. If you think it is hard to
fill support functions with qualified folks on fires now, just wait. And
just who do you think they will expect to train all those contractors that
they seem to think will just step into the job???
And then there's the day to day operations of us agency people. I don't
know about youall, but our fire folks do an awful lot of work for other
departments, thinning, cadastral surveying, snow surveying, yard work,
facility maintenance, timber marking, wildlife surveys and on and on.
Where's the savings in having a crew hang out all day waiting for the fire
bell?
Sigh....
Firenwater |
| 01/30 |
My problem with the 10 standard orders in any form:
For new people, ten items is too many to keep in memory without extensive
repetition and situational practice. Focusing on a smaller set that has a
mnemonic like LCES fits into what's been shown scientifically about how
memory works. A new learner can keep only 5 to 7 items max in short term
memory to be able to easily consolidate them into long term memory. 10 or
17 items is too many for the inexperienced. Sure the "flow and
"logic" of the original orders is satisfying for those of you
who already know and live them. And if training is substantial, the form
of presentation of them as "rules of engagement/disengagement"
would help people "chunk" the info from short into long term
memory. You sequential processors probably got those rules integrated with
much less problem than some other kinds of "rules to stay safe"
and many of us are sequential processors. But I would say here that
training and practice is the key and I don't see enough at the situational
level.
HC |
| 01/30 |
Emt_Micah:
I would ask the Head Park Ranger to give you a letter that says
"Wildland Firefigter" or 025 series are in fact "Inherently
governmental". Federal DOD Firefighters have tried to seek
legislative action to include their positions. Military Base's across the
nation downsized and gave their firefighters the boot. BRAC did a great
job of pushing "outsourcing/contracting" to local Fire
Departments. Some Feds ended up with jobs by their State legislators
passing IAFF legislation to allow Federal Firefighters to fill jobs before
the job was filled by recruitment. FWFSA has been looking for a Dept of
Interior or Agriculture Fire position that is "Inherently
governmental", NO SUCH beast exists! Contracting out is the
Republican way, Forest Service employee's are the "low hanging
fruits" that need to be picked? Interesting stuff if you're a
Republican. OF COURSE........ "THEY SAID" is not a place you
want to go into political party stuff? If you know of a position in the
Park Service, (FIRE) that is inherent by position, please share. Only the
Law Enforcement group is covered.
Niedermeyer |
| 01/30 |
Anyone know where I can find any of the hand tools which come with the
nylon or fiberglass handles (not exactly sure what the material is)? I
have
tried the Dragon Slayer Tools, and despite the fact that the Magnum
Pulaski
head is awesome, the handle is still just wood. And for $250 that's a
little
much for me to be paying for a wood handle.
Any suggestions?
Thanks - Firetool |
| 01/30 |
Ab,
FWFSA rep's (or myself) will be on chat tonight Thursday after 7 pm
(Pacific) to answer questions and to garner support for Wildland Fire
Service Issues.
FWFSA_SoCal |
| 01/30 |
AB & All,
r.e. Craig Goddel's " Better way, Fire orders"
We have already gone back to the Original 10 Standards. This is how we
learned it when I started, I never bothered to "re-learn" the
FIRE ORDERS version. The new way just didn't make sense. Funny how the
pendulum swings. Attached is a copy of the poster
that we have in our training room. Feel free to use it.
sting |
| 01/29 |
AB,
I find it ironic that the NPS in their search for Competitive Sourcing,
issued a $5,000,000 contract without competing for their own contract. The
following article can be found at the following address-
www.peer.org/press/311.html
More than likely the "Competitive Sourcing" won't take away any
fire jobs
in the Govt. but the new directives in contracting fuels projects probably
will. By next year we will be forced to contract 50% of all fuels dollars.
This is supposed to stimulate the local economy. So the jobs we would
have normally given to the seasonals we will now have to give to
contractors who charge (in my dealings and fuels types) $2,000-3,000
dollars an acre when we could do it for $1,000 an acre. I have been told
my
projects cannot exceed $1,000 an acre...unless we contract them. Does this
make sense?
I have good friends who work for contractors and I don't want to knock
them
for what they do. Many projects couldn't get done without them. I am very
interested if other people feel the same way...
M from CA
I did not reprint the article as it would violate copyright laws. You
can read it via the link. Ab. |
| 01/29 |
Mike Sweeney, here's your answer on the Retardant Drop photo by leo
jarzomb.
Leo Jarzomb
San Gabriel Valley Newspaper Group
1210 Azusa Canyon Rd.
West Covina CA 91790
leo.jarzomb@sgvn.com
800-788-7578 ext 2121
He took it on Sept 4, '02 on the Curve Fire.
One who was there |
| 01/29 |
Deployment to OZ:
Abs,
caught part of an interview on morning tv with a Hotshot by the name of
Beebee (?). They seem to have been sent to Victoria to help with the high
country fires there. With the forecast weather I'm sure they're going to
be
in the very deep end first day.
For those that are thinking of coming, I suggest you have a read of the
report by one of the blokes that went with the first deployment from Oz to
US so you can get a look in to what differences there are. Download from
http://nrfa.fire.org.nz/publications/misc/ANZ_USA/.
cheers
OB |
| 01/29 |
Looking for Leo Jarzomb:
Need to ask Leo for permission to use his close-up of federal air
tanker that's posted on airtanker 6 on
wildlandfire.com.
We are a newly-formed non-profit group that's working to save the CDF
Ukiah Air Attack base. Please contact me at sweeney@pacific.net
or pager (707) 468 2223.
Mike Sweeney |
| 01/29 |
NWCG's Safety and Health Working Team has the newest Safety Gram
Accident/Incident Summary: Fatalities and Entrapments 2002. This is a
pdf version (218K). Later they will probably have a site where you
can
link to it so it doesn't take space on your server, Ab. Thought some might
like to see it.
Safety Gram,
2002
GW
Thanks. Ab. |
| 01/29 |
great chat last night. nice to make some contacts on here. keep it up
jaw-in'/tappety-tap-tapp-in'
Glad you like it. Nice work on the part of one of the Abs to get the
new version of RALF up and running. Working on this site takes lots of
time and it's nice to have help. Check out the new Smiley faces and
experience the new RALF chat. www.wildlandfire.com/smiley_info.htm.
Original Ab deserves a round of applause. clap clap Clap CLAP CLAP. Thanks
Original! You're the BEST.
Not the Original. |
| 01/28 |
The Easterners are in Chat. We hooked up the new chat as the default.
Just use the header FireChat button.
Oh yeah the jobs page and Series 462 and 455 are updated.
Ab.
|
| 01/28 |
MG,
There's a picture of ordinance on the fireground on http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/misc/misc.htm.
It's Stu's and it's called hazard. Some FF were talking about the dangers
of firefighting near a "hot area" the other night on chat. Maybe
one of them has a photo or two.
Todd
Todd and MG, someone wrot in that you really mean ordnance
not ordinance. Har. Let's see if I get "corrected". Ab. |
| 01/28 |
We could all send that "childish Childs" and his Competitive
Sourcing some of that LOW HANGING FRUIT. I'll send a banana with a few
choice comments on what he can do with it. ( Did I say that! ;-0 )
Childs gives "government" and G-dub a bad name. Well maybe
having them spell it out is better than if they glossed over it. At least
we know their true thinking. Doesn't bode well.
(Ab, this is a tame commentary, You should see the one I wrote the
first time around.)
Tahoe Terrie |
| 01/28 |
Abs,
Just got this today. We've already been told that public safety functions
(including wildland fire management) are inherently governmental and will
not be contracted out. We'll see in a year or two.
EMT_Micah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
National Park Service, Office of the Director
To All Employees
Since April 2002, when plans were announced to begin cost-comparison
studies associated with the Administration's competitive sourcing
initiative, I have made it a priority to keep National Park Service
employees informed about our agency's competitive sourcing plans.
National Park Service employees are very passionate about their jobs,
and have a well-deserved reputation for providing outstanding public
service. As director of this agency, I am confident the jobs being studied
will continue to be performed by our employees. At every opportunity, I
commend your outstanding work to Interior and White House officials.
Imagine my distress at reading an article with the headline "70%
of Jobs in Park Service Marked Ripe for Privatizing" in the January
26 edition of the L.A. Times, which also appeared in many other newspapers
across the country.
The article said that Interior Secretary Gale Norton has earmarked
11,807 full-time positions for privatization. That statement is not true.
That number, which is now 11,524, comes from the FAIR (Federal Activities
Inventory Reform) Act Inventory of 2002. The FAIR Act requires each agency
to identify a list of commercial functions it performs that are not
inherently governmental. The agency does not have to compete every
function, however, and with the Secretary's approval, the National Park
Service has identified 1,700 positions to be studied through FY 2003 and
FY 2004. A figure of 70% has never been used as a measuring stick for
privatizing National Park Service jobs or will it be. Nor will our ranger
ranks, those in the 025 series, as implied in the article, be among the
positions studied for competitive sourcing.
A letter to the editor is now being prepared to bring attention to the
misleading information and factual errors in the article, and should be
sent to the L.A. Times within the next couple of days.
Again, let me emphasize how much your dedication and outstanding public
service is appreciated not only by me but also Secretary Norton and
President Bush. I promise to keep you informed of any new developments in
the competitive sourcing process, and urge you to check InsideNPS, our
intranet website, under competitive sourcing for updates.
Fran Mainella
Director, National Park Service
|
| 01/28 |
the crew to Australia is 10 blm 8 usfs, 2 fish and feathers 1 nps and 2
BIA
Issues that came up: 1) no passport 2) no birth certificate, ergo no
passport and 3) some just can not leave the country.... They requested T1
FF's
(no name on this one please)
I have my passport. Ab. |
| 01/28 |
Does anyone have a photo or access to a photo of ordinance on the ground
or closely located to a wildland type of incident? I'm actually looking to
find a mortar round stuck in the ground.
Any help would be great.
MG |
| 01/28 |
Here's a draft of an issue paper entitled
"Standard Fire Orders and Watch Out Situations: There's a Better
Way".
This paper was forwarded to us by TC and DF and posted with the
permission of Craig Goddell, the author. Some good suggesting for
maintaining situational awareness in a changing fire environment and good
points regarding potential conflict between some of the fire orders and
the "Situations That Shout Watch Out".
Craig's paper is presented as a 188K pdf file. There's a
"dynamic model" of thinking through the fire orders on page 3.
You all know how we rag on pdf format, not this time. If you need Adobe
Acrobat Reader to access the pdf, you can get Acrobat
Reader here. It's free.
Click here to download Craig's "Better
Way" Fire Orders (pdf). We're also posting links to it on the Documents
Worth Reading page and on the Site Map
page, where you can also access Karl Brauneis' Original Intent Ten
Standard Fire Orders. It's interesting to see how Craig built on those.
Happy reading.
Ab.
PS. K just sent in a photo (gif)
of the page 3 model. |
| 01/28 |
AB and all, We lost another one.
Services for Chuck Jerpe will be held in Susanville CA on Feb 4th @ 1230
PM at the Assembly of God church. Chuck passed away Monday in Reno, NV
after a long battle with injuries he received in a Helicopter crash (Mt
Life Flight of Susanville CA) in 2001. Chuck was a F/F Medic originally
from the Fresno area and worked for 5 yrs in Glenn and Colusa Co's in the
90's. He was working for Mt EMS of Susanville when the Helicopter he was
returning from Reno in crashed into Honey Lake near Susanville , CA.
danfromord |
| 01/28 |
Ab's this is a forward from the NSW rural Fire Service.
I will leave it up to you to snip/edit to get the gist of the gravity
across.
Regards,
Aussie CFU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tuesday, 28 January 2003 6:58 PM
RACE AGAINST TIME FOR THOUSANDS OF FIREFIGHTERS
FW: RACE AGAINST TIME FOR THOUSANDS OF FIREFIGHTERS Volunteer
firefighters from the NSW Rural Fire Service will be racing against time
to build and consolidate containment lines around bushfires across the
State before the onset of expected bad bushfire weather conditions on
Wednesday and Thursday.
While we have taken the opportunity to stand down some of our
firefighters for much needed rest, the more than one thousand firefighters
who remain in the field, particularly in southern NSW, are racing to
rebuild containment lines around bushfires, said NSW Rural Fire Service
Assistant Commissioner Operations Shane Fitzsimmons.
While the weekend displayed how effectively our containment plans
worked and the readiness and capability of our firefighters against tough
fire weather conditions, we nevertheless witnessed the bushfires in the
southern part of NSW break through many of our containment lines.
With close to half a million hectares (1,235,525 acres) having
been burnt out in the area between the Yass district and through the Snowy
Mountains to the Victorian border, our work is still cut out for us to
contain these fires. The weather on Wednesday and Thursday is expected to
be very hot, dry and windy and this will again see these fires flare up.
Our crews will be using the next 24 hours to backburn and we will also
be deploying around 50 heavy bulldozers and graders to help cut new
containment lines.
We must recognise the ongoing efforts of our volunteers. Today marks
the 124th day of continuous declarations of "bushfire
emergencies" under s44 of the Rural Fires Act. This has been our most
protracted bush firefighting season on record and highlights the effect
that the drought is having on fire behaviour. We should also applaud those
employers who have continued to allow our volunteers leave from their
jobs, as well as those self-employed volunteers who have put their
businesses on hold to go off and fight fires across the State, said Asst.
Commissioner Fitzsimmons.
We're keeping you all in mind. Remember that no property, forest or
home is worth a life. Be Safe. Ab.
|
| 01/28 |
Ab,
I just finished reading all the scuttle about pack tests, IHCs and the
American Firefighting Crew on its way to Australia. The crew to Australia
is not a rumor. My IHC Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent
from the Zuni IHC are amongst those fortunate enough to make this trip.
There are also Smokejumpers in the mix and a few folks from the U.S. Fish
and Wildlife Service fire management program as well. (Yes, fins and
feathers has a well trained and highly qualified fire management program.)
They will be broken up into four groups of five personnel and manning
engines. I don't know about the other folks but the assistant
superintendent from Zuni is also a former and still current Engine Boss or
Captain of Foreman depending who or which agency you may work under. The
superintendent is an ICT3. Who knows why the powers that be decided to
send the people that were chosen instead of currently active engine crews.
Personally I felt they should have sent hotshot crews and engine crews.
The folks from "down under" came to our aide last summer and I
would like to send them more than the people we are sending.
In any case, we are sending a good mix of professional wildland
firefighters. Who knows, maybe this will serve to open the door for more
of us to go help out. In case anyone is interested, the Zuni IHC
Superintendent's name is Carl Crawford of the Blackfeet Nation and the
Assistant Superintendent's name is Troy Cachini of the Zuni Tribe. Our
prayers and hopes for a safe return goes with every member of the American
Firefighting Crew and are extended to our friends from "down
under" that they all weather out the fire storms safely.
I wanted to mention that the Southwest is in as bad if not worse shape
right now as we were this time last year. The snow pack is non-existent
and we are having mid to late spring like weather. I fear that the
Rodeo-Chediski fire was just a warm-up for things to come. We are already
experiencing moderate fire danger on the Zuni Reservation and the indices
are moving up rapidly. The fire season is shaping up to be another long,
tiring and dangerous one. Everyone be safe and remember, they haven't
grown one tree that is worth singing the hair on our wildland
firefighters.
Cheers,
They lite-em, We fight-em (alias, Zuni FMO)
|
| 01/27 |
This list of excerpts evidently from one of Bush's appointees at OMB
has come in from a number of sources. Competitive Sourcing, what is
it and what are the implications for the future? Ab.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments on federal employees and the Competitive Sourcing Initiative
Excerpts from David C. Childs, Commercial Activities &
Privatization Manager, Office of Management & Budget speeches, Jan.
17, 2002; Nov., 2002, Washington, DC, Reno, NV
- There is not a government employee performing at the industry
standard rates.
- 850,000 government employees are doing work that could or should be
done by the private sector.
- Expected only about 105,000 of these government jobs to be lost.
- We don't care who does the work.
- It is not going to be easy to retain in-house government services.
- We don't want to penalize federal employees for past inefficiencies.
- Federal employees will sell their souls.
- Forest Service employees are "LOW HANGING FRUIT" that need
to be removed.
- If a Forest Service employee is working a couple months on fire,
that means that his other Forest Service job is not needed.
- This is a reaction to chronic poor performance of government and
continuing disclosure of intolerable waste.
- If there is a contractor somewhere, anywhere doing the work, it is
not inherently governmental.
- This renewed emphasis [on Competitive Sourcing] is really nothing
new.
- Due to the intensive downsizing of the previous administration, the
workforce is aging and 50% of government employees will retire in 4-10
years. We have to do this competitive sourcing NOW or we may not be
able to accomplish our goals due to the shrinking workforce.
- Determining what jobs are inherently governmental is not inherently
governmental.
- Determining the Most Efficient Organization (MEO) is not inherently
governmental.
- If federal agencies don't fully implement the administrations goals,
we [OMB] will cut their budget accordingly. The Corp of Engineers is
an example in how they didn't buy into the outsourcing last year so we
[OMB] slashed their budget. [He neglected to say that Congress later
restored all of their funding.]
- This is not about the reduction of federal jobs or budget cuts, nor
about "privatization", but rather about finding the right
kind of jobs.
- If government jobs were contracted out, that would not necessarily
mean that government workers would lose their jobs.
- Competition is the best way to reduce government costs and improve
accountability.
|
| 01/27 |
Hi all lets talk about some fire for once instead of RAIN SNOW COLD..
Lets
get the blood FLowing Fire Season is coming up.. Whats a better way to
make
friends .. never know who you could run into.. Tonight 1-27-03 at 8 pm ..
that is 2000 for us who know the military time..
See Ya there..
R6 Washington state FF..
Try the old chat room - hit the chat button in the header. I can't
get the link to the new one to work. Ab.
|
| 01/27 |
Richard,
The last Academy starts on April 6th, but you must have 500 hours of
Wildland Fire experience before you can attend. This does not mean that
they can't hire you as an apprentice this year, but you can not attend the
academy until next year.
-Cara |
| 01/27 |
AB,
Hello, my name is Richard and i just got a call from a forest who was
interested in hiring me for the apprentice program. By any chance would
you happen to know when the academy dates are? If it's before
March 7 i wont be able to go - because i will be 18 on March 7.
I also was wanting to know if there are going to be any academies later
in March or in April?
Thank you and I love your website.
Richard |
| 01/27 |
Here are a few pictures to add to the photo archives. A conglomerate of
HS crews from Alberta, Canada, on export to the Biscuit Fire in Oregon. We
were there for 17 days, from August 4th to the 21st (or thereabouts),
based first in Gold Beach, and then Brookings. Our first assignment was
structure protection in the settlement of Wilderness Retreat where we were
very warmly welcomed. We were amazed by the treatment we received from the
locals, and were touched to see Canadian flags flying from their houses
and even some businesses in Brookings. We spent the latter part of our
tour cutting line, setting up pumps, and laying hose (bloody threaded
couplings!), in preparation for burnouts that we never got to see,
unfortunately, because we timed out.
- The first picture was on the way into Oregon, but you can probably
figure that out by looking at it. We took the scenic route from
Medford, OR, to CA, and back to Gold Beach, OR.
- The second is our crew w/ STLs crossing the Chetco River near
Wilderness Retreat.
- The third is of us putting up sprinklers on the Chetco River Inn. A
beautiful place with great hosts, good snacks, and a Scottish terrier
named Maggie!
- These next 3 photos give an idea of the topography (bloody steep in
some places!) and fuels.
- Here's one that shows the smoke from the fire over the Pacific
Ocean.
- A nice job with the Christmas lights above the Brookings camp!
GreatWhiteNorth
Thanks GreatWhiteNorth for being patient while we got these up. We
have some more photos on a bit of a backlog but we are working on them. We
put these up on the Biscuit Fire
page at the bottom. Ab. |
| 01/27 |
on friday, george chesley announced that usfs are doing cutbacks here
and that, due to the severe snow pack, it will be a very bad fire season
here in central and eastern oregon
doc brown |
| 01/27 |
Book Review.
In Fire: A Brief History, Steven Pyne identifies three separate
political camps with respect to the controversy over fire management
policy at the turn of the century. The first group he refers to as the
"Let it burn" group or individuals and institutions seeking to
keep the status quo. The second group were the "Light Burners".
These were proponents of a fire management policy which incorporated the
use of controlled burns as a way of mimicking the natural occurrence of
fire in land management. The third group Pyne refers to as the "No
Burn" group. This group which included powerful political figures
such as Gifford Pinchot and Henry Graves eventually would dominate the
political landscape in terms of fire management in the forests of the
country for the next 85 years.
This was an excellent account of the early politics leading to present day
fire management policy. Politics swing as a pendulum from left to right.
With the exception of certain infrequent catastrophic events, mother
nature operates in a much more subtle manner than political events.
Combining politics with good fire management will never be a good mix. Let
us learn from the lessons of the past. In a quote by George Santayana in
1905 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat
it." we are reminded that we should always keep an open mind towards
learning.
5 saws for historical value, 3 saws for an easy read, avg it to 4 saws
if you like.
Cap'n Kirk
Nice review, Cap'n. We put it up on the Book
Reviews page. Ab. |
| 01/27 |
more job cuts.. not sure if fire affected though.
Majority of jobs in Park Service possible targets for privatization
www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/5038724.htm
The Meat |
| 01/27 |
I have sat by and read all the stuff about pack tests, who can and can
not pass it, and why and why not we should have it. well I am 50 years
old,
have had lyme disease which raised hell with my joints especially my
left hip. in fact at one point I considered having it replaced but did
not.
I just spent time in the wt. room and hiked with wt. on my back and
Nicks Boots reworked my boots to compensate for my short leg and yes i
can pass the pack test. so to all you that have two good legs and an ok!
back, get up off your ass and stop wining and get with the program. I
walk with a limp and they call me the gimp, but I can still out work and
walk most of them.
The old fire gimp |
| 01/27 |
Another J.W.,
I believe the case you are referring to involved the British Columbia
Forest Service. Fitness tests vary from province to province across the
country. As I heard it, the 'old' test that she first passed _was_ the
pack test. The test that the BCFS had switched to was the shuttle run or
beep test. It was the new beep test that she was not able to pass. I'm not
sure what the level for a 'pass' was, but for Alberta Type I-Helitack
Support and Type I-Rapattack crews, you need a minimum of level 10.
Ontario's minimum is level 6. So I've been led to believe that the BCFS
has scrapped the beep test and gone back to the pack test.
In case some are not familiar with the beep test, here's a description
of Alberta's fitness requirements (3 parts):
1 metre = 3.3 feet
Physical Fitness
Applicants selected must successfully complete a physical fitness test
consisting of three phases. Applicants will be interviewed after the
physical fitness test and if selected, will be sent to the training course
and may be accepted to the program. Members of the HS are tested
throughout the season and must be able to meet the following minimum
physical fitness standards at all times. Failure to do so will result in
the member being released from the program. A 20-minute rest is allowed
between phases.
Shuttle Run: the runner completes a minimum of 90, 20-metre runs
back and forth, or 1800 metres (1.1 miles) at pre-determined beeps
starting at 8.2 seconds per 20 metres and progressing faster throughout
the 1800 metres.
Upright Row: in a standing position, back against the wall,
knees slightly bent, and hands placed shoulder width apart on the bar,
lift a 23-kg (51 lb.) barbell to chest height. The metronome will be set
at 40 beats per minute or 20 lifts per minute. The standard is 18
repetitions per minute.
Pump/Hose/Carry/Drag: which must be completed in under four
minutes and ten seconds. The timer starts when the pump is placed on the
ground. For safety purposes, this phase of the test must be performed
wearing a hard hat, coveralls, and work boots.
Start by carrying 30-kg (65-lb) Mark III pump 100 metres without
stopping - 50 metres out and back. Next pick up four 30-metre (100 ft)
lengths of 1.5-inch hose, (31 kg/68 lbs.), putting it over the shoulders
and carrying it a distance of 300 metres - 75 metres out and back twice.
Upon completion of the above, pick up a charged length of 1.5-inch hose
and drag it 50 metres out and back twice for a total of 200 metres. Hose
lengths must be pulled over the shoulder with one hand and grasped behind
the back with the opposite hand to pass this test.
cheers,
GreatWhiteNorth |
| 01/27 |
AB:
Found the following this morning.
"Hayman Firefighter Says He's Being Burned By System"
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/7newsinvestigates/1936731/detail.html
It is beyond dry here on front range of Colorado. It is suppose to be 69
degrees in Denver today.
Mountain Fire Departments here in Boulder County are getting prepared for
a long dry year, beginning now.
From what I have heard, I am not sure if a Aerial Tanker will be at Jeffco
Airport this year or not.
CAFSman |
| 01/27 |
Report from Downunder:
We lost a fellow fire fighter yesterday (Jan 26th).
A volunteer fire fighter was killed as a result of a 3 vehicle (all ff
vehicles) collision in bad visibility due to smoke in Western Australia
yesterday. Two others are still in hospital with severe injuries that are
not considered life threatening. He was engaged to be married.
Some 20 odd houses were lost down in Victoria last night.
Final toll for Canberra (as of the Sunday Papers),
420 houses destroyed plus the Mt Stromlo Observatory, a number of
government buildings and a gas station, damaged houses unknown
4 dead,
60 injured and requiring hospitalization,
But some good news
The state of emergency was lifted in Canberra and interstate crews have
been sent home,
The snow skiing capital of Australia, Thredbo village, was saved (fires
came from both ends of the valley that it was located in) and has had some
light rain that has assisted FF to contain the fires.
Victorian fires still a major concern.
Catch you all later.
Aussie CFU |
| 01/27 |
Fedfire/ blackliner
Jr. here, I worked on Vandenberg's crew for several years, they do
become unavailable during missile launches and other important military
missions. All members of the crew are civilian, with an occasional airmen
to supplement their numbers. They are under the 0081 series and are paid
portal to portal when they leave for a fire. They have a mutual aid
agreement with SBCO and Los Padres NF. for initial attack responses. You
will only see them in South Zone though, the base commander would never
let us leave for calls to other regions and North Zone. They have the same
requirements as a IHC and have close ties with LP hotshots overhead. Let
me know if you have any other questions I will be glad to answer them.
Jr. Vandenberg Fire |
| 01/27 |
Well my point of the pack test is this.. it is a great item to see how
fit that a firefighter is. Is it fair YES, but does it mean you are in
shape you are a safe firefighter NOT ALWAYS. Does not passing the pack
test mean you are not a safe firefighter HECK NO. look folks if you are
wayout of shape you cant do this work. i have see some pugey guys that
work harder than most. hey i am 41 year old and a littleover lbs but yes i
have passed the pack test..
NC BRUSH 6 |
| 01/26 |
Hey All,
One of the Abs did a lot of research and created a new and updated chat.
RALF chat did give some problems. We now have a new and updated version.
www.wildlandfire.com/cgi-bin/chat.cgi
We've been testing it out among ourselves and want to announce a
community test of the new system after the Superbowl tonight, maybe
about 2000 hours. If you can find someone to chat with before then,
feel free to do so. You'll have to reenter your moniker and password. If
you have any feedback for us on how it works or anything else, we'd
appreciate hearing it.
It appears to this Ab that the system is much less jerky and has
some other great new features. Of course it will be interesting to see how
it "flows" with more people on it.
Be there or be square!
Ab. |
| 01/26 |
My .02 on the pack test thread - bottom line is that firefighters are
athletes. We need to be
able to have that extra 110% in reserve: moving to a safety zone, punching
that last chain
to tie in, stretching the final hose pack. This requires a commitment to
physical training
all year. Back when I ran an engine crew, I called prospective crew
members in February
and laid out my expectations to them. They needed to show up in May
already in shape. I
have moved on to a ADFMO position, but I still work out all winter long,
and see the folks
I've trained doing the same. 45 minutes with 45 pounds on flat terrain is
no problem if
fitness is a part of one's lifestyle.
-AL |
| 01/26 |
Hey Ab,
I've heard that overhead and a 20 person crew are going to Australia.
They're gathering in LA to get the passport issue resolved.
Hats off to you all. Let us know more as you can. Snap a few shots
for us.
Be SAFE.
NorCal Tom |
| 01/26 |
I am short, 5'2", and I have always been able to pass the pack
test. I
have even passed the pack test when I was pretty out of shape from
hanging out on the couch all winter. I think it is a HUGE red flag if
someone can't pass it, and passing it does not mean that a person is in
good enough shape for this job.
-C |
| 01/26 |
fedfire-
And of course I would forget the BIA! Sorry Guys! I have to say that
several very good crews come out of the BIA. The BIA crews I can
think of are Geronimo, Fort Apache, Zuni, Chief Mountain, Mescalero
and Warm Springs. The only crew I haven't worked around is Warm
Springs. I mean no disrespect if I have missed someone. Anyway, an
IHC is supposed to be an IHC, so it really doesn't matter who funds
them. Same job, different colored buggies...
-blackliner |
| 01/25 |
The Jobs, Series
462 and 455
pages are updated.
New jobs are up under Contract.
A new Oregon job is up under State.
Ab. |
| 01/25 |
Anyone not able to pass the pack test should not be in this profession.
As a woman in wildfire myself I keep in shape year round and set goals for
the up and coming fire season, as far as athleticism goes. If you can't
pass the pack test you become a liability, as far as fire goes liabilities
are a bad thing. a supervisor isn't going to take someone out that can't
keep up, or if they have to constantly worry about if that person is going
to make it out with the rest of the crew. If you plan on coming into this
profession then please do your homework and know what you are getting
yourself into and what you have to prepare for.
P.S. I want to go to OZ too. Please, Please, Please
-AK-
Dorothy, that you? Ab. |
| 01/25 |
Well that makes sense, call up Hotshots to staff engines, am I missing
something here or is this another case of the government forgetting about
their engine crews (It's been about 2 years since I wrote a description of
engine crews for the USFS Fire and Aviation site and they still haven't
even put an inactive link for engines in their people in fire section,
just IHCs and Smoke Jumpers, go figure).
-blackliner
Vandenberg has been around for a number of years, I'm not really sure how
they fit into the larger picture, they do get made unavailable when
Vandenberg starts firing rockets though and I believe they are restricted
to the state of California, but as with my previous posting I don't know
where the rumor begins and the truth ends. I've worked with them about 1/2
dozen times, and they seem to be a good crew, they've got a set of rather
distinctive 4x4 navy blue buggys which makes them quite visible in camp or
at the drop point if they are on your division.
Don't forget BIA either, I've worked with Geronimo and Fort Apache on
numerous occasions and was quite pleased when I got them when I was IC, I
found them to be the least whiny about their assignment of any IHC I've
worked with. I don't know of any other BIA Hotshots though.
Pack test
I find it interesting that the Canadian Court thinks aerobic capacity can
not be increased, I thought that was why we ran, I'm going to have to
print out that finding and use it as proof that the chief needs to buy us
donuts instead of sending us to the gym, the gym is just his little way of
torturing us, I always knew I shouldn't trust health fanatics. I'll admit
there are a handful of people who have been displaced by the pack test
that can still perform their job but I have never found the pack test that
difficult and am in pretty sorry shape for firefighting, My line pack ran
around 35-40 lbs as do many, I don't see how the argument that carrying a
pack roughly the same weight as gear carried in the job over flat ground
discriminates, the ground on fires is rarely flat and the equipment does
not carry its self, should we have to mark employees with weight
restrictions so I don't accidentally hand a bladderbag to a crew person
that only passed the 35lb pack test? The old test was a joke, I have never
been able to do the 11 1/2 minute run but have out hiked those who can,
and the step test was a bad joke, the best score I ever saw was a 40 year
old fat smoker who was always the tail end charlie on PTs and fires.
Model 62
There are 3 types of 62, the 62A, which looks like the older model 61, it
is a regular cab and the crew sits in the front of the build up, the model
62B came out in the late 1990's and is a crew cab with bat wing hose
covers and a hose reel on each side. The 62C came out in 2001, it looks
similar to the 62B but only has one hose reel in the rear behind a roll up
door and lower hose covers. Some others you may run across are the Model
42, 51, 60, and 61 although these are being phased out, there are very few
model 51 and 60's still in use by the USFS. These are all R5 engines, the
other regions have their own models.
Not the best shots on some of these for recognition but it will have to
do.
Note that the cabs vary depending on which batch they came from, you
will find the same models built on Fords, Internationals, GMC etc, also
may be 2 or 4 wheel drive.
Model 42 - recognition factors, much smaller than the others, 3 person
crew. Hose reel mounted top center. PTO pump.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng5/waters5.jpg
Model 51 - recognition factors, crew cab, build up sits on a flat bed,
unlike the 60 which is built onto the vehicle chassis. Gasoline powered
pump mounted in the rear, not PTO.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/fseng5.jpg
Model 60 - crew cab, build up part of the frame, 2 hose reels (one each
side), looks very similar to the 62B but is older and does not have the
aluminium batwing hose covers on top.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/fseng1.jpg
Model 61 - regular cab, crew sits in the front of the box like build
up, two hose reels (1 each side mounted lower than the model 62A.Rear crew
area is smaller than the 62A and has 1 1/2" intakes.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng5/helitack.jpg
Model 62A - regular cab, looks very similar to the 6 but the hose reels
are mounted higher, the crew area is larger and it has a 2 1/2"
intake.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng/guest3.jpg
Model 62B - crew cab, looks very much like the 60 but newer, large
batwing aluminum hose covers, 2 hose reals, large square compartment doors
instead of long rectangular doors. Rear compartment has a double door
arrangement.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/lpfeng.jpg
Model 62C - crew cab, looks similar to the 62B but only has one hose
reel mounted in a roll up door at the rear, the aluminum hose covers are
flat and lower, unlike the 62B's which rise up about 6-8".
http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/peppermintca01.jpg
Hope this helps.
Fedfire |
| 01/25 |
another JW-
I find it somewhat humorous that anyone would find the pack test to be
an unfair assesment of physical ability for wildland firefighting. I, and
many of my colleagues, do not feel that it adequately represents how truly
arduous this job can be. On a crew, engine or ship, the only physical
requirement for being a member is passing the pack test (yeah, thanks OPM-
jerks). The daily fitness program for a Hotshot crew is usually much
harder than the test required to be there. Consequently, many people who
think this job is for them pass the pack test, but cannot meet the same
fitness level of the crew. Red flag here- NO ONE wants a crew member who
cannot pull their own weight. A bad situation gets much worse when someone
can't keep up...
Ideally, IHCs would be able to adopt the same fitness requirements as
the jumper program, but that ain't gonna' happen- OPM won't let it happen.
This job isn't for everyone. Period. Fire isn't easy, and getting a job
shouldn't be either.
-blackliner |
| 01/25 |
another JW,
I do not understand what all the uproar is over having to take and pass
the pack/vest test. If you are in shape and stay that way then you will
not have any trouble in passing it. I haven't done the recert yet this
year, coming up next month. Last year I did it in 39 min 27 sec. But then
I am only 66 years old. So quit whining and start working out. Say about 3
mi run 5 or 6 days a week, plus a little on the Wt Machines.
Old Man of the Dept |
| 01/25 |
Just got word that Washington is calling up certain Hotshot
Superintendents to set up national teams of 5 to possibly fly out this
Monday to assist Australia. These teams would consist of various positions
ranging from ICT3, Div. Supts, etc. Once in Australia, these teams would
break out to cover small engines for hose lays and firing operations. I
was called by my boss to be ready. Now it’s hard to be excited for Super
Bowl!! LOL
firejim |
| 01/25 |
another J.W.
I am for the pack test, it is a very easy test to pass, and yes I'm short
and I still have no problem with it. The old test was too easy to pass,
just pop a couple of aspirins and you will pass no matter how out of
shape you are. If someone can not pass the pack test I don't want them
on my crew because if we are down in some hole and have to get out and
that person can't get out because they choose to be out of shape, they
put themselves, me and my crew in jeopardy. This job is not for
everyone and if you fight the pack test legally then you take away the
accountability that we have people who can hike up some steep ridge. It
is unforgiving out there for people who choose to be out of shape.
Flameboy |
| 01/25 |
hey ab,
i was wondering if you or any one out there in the fire world would
have pics of some model 62 engines. i am curious on what they look like,
what is on them and so forth. i am possibly gonna transition from a
helitack crew to a engine crew and that is what they are running. so
curious if some one could post something with that. thanks
also be safe it is a new year, and things can change in a hurry!!!
heads up you all and god bless ya...
FIREMAN T |
| 01/25 |
Tawney Meiorin, a female Forest Firefighter from Canada won her case in
reference to physical testing (Work Capacity Testing). Supreme Court of
Canada, September 09, 1999, file # 2674. This forest firefighter was fired
from her job because of her inability to take and pass a "Newly
Implemented" work capacity test. Does this sound familiar? She was
able to pass the old test, but when the new test was introduced, she just
couldn't pass it... well, she was ultimately fired.... but, the Supreme
Court of Canada ruled that since aerobic capacity CANNOT be built up, nor
is it a factor in ACTUALLY AND SAFELY PERFORMING JOB DUTIES. The Supreme
Court of Canada also ruled that what seemed to be a fair and equal test to
all, was indeed the opposite. There are folks that all of us know, that
are totally awesome to work with and they have perfect safety records.
They also have Satisfactory to Excellent, Employee Evaluations. Yet, there
is disparate treatment of individuals, blatant discrimination and even
some hostile work environments created over the issue of the current
physical testing that the BIA, DOI, NPS and the USFS uses. We all know
someone who's in this situation... regardless of their reasons for
inability to take and pass this test, if they were considered fit and safe
prior to the implementation of the pack test, please turn 'em on to this
court case.... I hear several Supervisory folks are interested in this
case before they continue inflicting more abuse on their "whipping
posts", the folks that've been unfairly mistreated, removed from
positions, lost pay, mentally abused and harassed, as well as those
threatened to have careers ended"... I'm checking to see if there
have been any civil suits filed against the people who were in supervisory
positions that encouraged and/or enforced these actions against this
firefighter and if so... what the current status of the case/s are... ya'
never know... she was re-instated to her job and monetarily compensated in
full for time lost from her employer... Just thought I'd share this
information with you folks out there...
another J.W. |
| 01/24 |
A "mate" from the Country Fire Authority (CFA) in Victoria,
Australia is
calling it "SHIT Saturday":"Send Help, It's
Terrible"!!
And, a large majority of them Volunteers, doing
"Portal-to-Portal" for free!
Dick Mangan |
| 01/24 |
Fedfire-
I knew that I would get a response as soon as I sent it. I meant to say
the only federal agencies that administered...IHC's were the USFS, BLM and
NPS. The State of Alaska also has Shots. I've only been in fire for six
years (all as a shot), but I've never worked with Vandenburg. Are they a
new crew or are they one of California's RHC crews?
-blackliner |
| 01/24 |
-blackliner
Vandenberg Air Force Base near Santa Barbara, CA has a Hotshot Crew
(Vandenberg Hotshots). I'm not sure if they are 0462 or 0081 I've heard
rumors of both along with they are / are not paid portal to portal. Not
sure what the truth is on those issues.
Also Kern County Fire Department has a Hot Shot crew (Rio Bravo Hot Shots
I believe), they claim to be the only non federal hotshot crew and as far
as I know they are. The overhead are full time Kern County firefighters
and the bulk of the crew are temps paid at the same rate as the federal GS
scale.
Fedfire |
| 01/24 |
Chip-
The reasons or psychology behind the desire to fight fires is truly a
nebulous pit. My personal reasons are rooted deeply within two major
themes- commitment to public service and pure excitement. Sure other
aspects are very important (i.e. camaraderie, travel, etc...), but I truly
believe that I have something to offer the people of this country as a
wildland firefighter. On those bad days when I miss my wife and my dog and
home in general, it is the excitement and thrill of working (Yes, even
mop-up, buts that's just because I get to go out snaggin'!) a fire that
keeps me coming back.
One quick question-
Exactly which IHC is administered by the DOD? To my knowledge, IHC's are
only in the USFS, BLM and NPS. Just curious.
-blackliner |
| 01/24 |
Ab,
The "Just One More Time" thread started on 03/28/00 on
"They Said". I
re-read the original writings I posted on that date, and those from
Firehorse and Pulaski and others that followed. Still makes we well up in
the eyes. I miss fire fighting, even after being retired almost three
years
now. I stand my suggestion that you folks in fire treat each assignment as
if it were their last one. Take care of your friends and "live a
little,
love a lot, and live each day as if it is your last."
Any current additions to "Just One More Time" would be
appreciated.
Hunter
Hi Hunter. Ditto on your sentiments. It is a sweet thread. Ab. |
| 01/24 |
NMAirBear:
Glad to hear you have already submitted a nomination for Paul Gleason. I
agree that multiple nominations from different quarters will make success
much more likely. I will continue on with my effort and, as I previously
requested, any details you can provide for a quality nomination would be
greatly appreciated. Send it to the Abs who say they will gladly pass it
along. Would like to add my voice to your observation that "this is
the
most deserving guy ever to hump a hill, train a troop, and keep folks safe
in our business."
Sign me,
Mike DeGrosky |
| 01/24 |
I have to say, that for my money, Mr. or Ms. Nomad ( which ever is
correct) has hit the nail squarely on the head. I have felt my most alive
when as a group you have beaten the opposition either on the fire ground,
out on the fire line, or on the athletic field. I don't think Twain or
Hemingway could say it better. The closest I have read is the speech from
Shakespeare, "he who fights, and spills his blood with me today, is
my
brother".
(sorry for the misquote of the bard, just going from memory, such as it
is.)
WELL DONE, NOMAD.
Retired L.A.V.E. |
| 01/24 |
CNN is showing all 3 of the kidnapped Americans in Columbia (including
CDF firefighter Megan Smaker) as being freed on Friday morning.
Mollysboy
Thanks Mollysboy, I'll let the CDFers know. Ab. |
| 01/24 |
Here is another story form Oz. Even though its 60 years ago it has a lot
of
similarities to today.
www.theaustralian.news.com.au
Backburnfs |
| 01/24 |
NICC has posted the Seasonal Wildland Fire Outlook at
www.nifc.gov/news/intell_predserv_forms/season_outlook.html
Shep |
| 01/24 |
From the firenews page under *Australia:
Canberra
braces for horror weekend
Firescribe
|
| 01/24 |
Mike M. and all others who are Paul Gleason's friends:
I have already submitted a nomination for Paul Gleason for the Stihl
award from several of us here locally in Carlsbad NM. After working
through Stihl's nomination process, I must suggest similar action for
those of us who feel strongly about Paul receiving this well-deserved
award. We should do separate nominations from our separate and many
quarters.
I will be attending my FMO conference next week and will be lobbying
strongly for several more nominations. I urge all of you interested in
honoring this wildland firefighting hero to do the same.
This is the most deserving guy ever to hump a hill, train a troop, and
keep folks safe in our business. Let's make it happen!
NMAirBear
Undoubtedly different people/groups know different aspects of Paul's
life. For the details of the award and the nomination process click the
banner at the top of theysaid. Ab. |
| 01/23 |
2013: Chat anyone? Some are gathering. Ab. |
| 01/23 |
Chip,
About a week and a half ago I was sitting around talking with people
who had just seen The Lord of the Rings for the first time. One of them
said aloud, "I wish you could do that in real life- Travel around and
have adventures in crazy places with a group of people like that. You
know, like a little family. It sucks that you can't actually do
that." A big grin flashed across my face. Au contrair, I told
them, this is doable, very doable. I went on to explain the whole fire
business to them and how this happens every summer.
Ya see Chip, wildland fire fighting requires a lot of travel,
typically. Especially if you are on a 20 person handcrew, or hotshot crew.
You spend your summer crashing around the country, fighting fires wherever
they pop up. You may wake up in some god forsaken part of the Nevada
desert one day, then be on your way to Yellowstone the next. And this goes
on for months. The only constant is the people. Now, when TheySaiders talk
about feeling like they're in a family, they ain't kidding. Because for
better or worse, you are stuck with the same group of people all season.
You work long, draining shifts, you don't get enough sleep- you get
excited together, you get bored together, you get pissed off together, and
you get drunk together. So after a while, you have real sense of who these
people are, of how they behave when the chips are down and when the chips
are up. You develop an intuitive, gut sense of what motivates each
individual. Whether you like 'em or not, you know 'em. Now, that is
family, that is closeness.
And a consequence of that is a real sense of belonging to the group, of
being part of something. But it's not just that you are part of something
random- you gotta earn it. Real membership doesn't start until you've
proven yourself, until you've gone out on a fire assignment and showed
everybody what you're made of. I think that the feeling of exclusivity is
a big part of why people like to hold their head so high in this
profession. Not everyone can hack it on the fireline or on a hard PT. At
some point, I think that deep down inside, everyone feels weak, feels like
failure is just a footstep away. You feel maxed out and you don't know if
you can keep going. But it's a silent struggle, one that you battle with
in the solitude of your own mind, but you don't quit, you keep going. Why?
Because no one else is stopping. The socializing force of not wanting to
fall out is extremely powerful. And the beauty of it is that you do go
farther, harder, and faster than you probably ever would on your own. At
least that's how I feel.
So when you come back from a kickass fire assignment and you're dirty,
smelly, tired, hungry, and sore- well, actually at that point you don't
care, all you wanna do is eat and sleep, or maybe check up on the local
population of females. But at some point later on, when it's over and
you're rested and fed enough to think about such things, you feel alive
inside. I think Mike 'n Terrie had it right about Adrenaline being that
part that gets in your blood. You feel strong, you feel like you actually
just did something that was challenging and worthwhile, and you had the
fortune to share the experience with your little rag-tag, adventuring
family. And on that day, you walk out of the bar holding your head up
high, proud to be part of something so ballsy and genuine.
-The Nomad
Handcrew: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/hand5/shots.jpg
Engine Crew: www.wildlandfire.com/pics/eng3/orosco2.jpg |
| 01/23 |
Dear Wild Land Fire Group,
Congratulation about your work, I´d like invite all your team and friends
to write articles about Tips in Fire Combat - Air Tankers and Helicopters.
I Created the first site about Flight Safety in Portuguese (in Brasil)
named www.airsafetygroup.com.br.
So it will a great pleasure to have your
participation.
I Stand by your answer.
Regards,
Jefferson V. FRAGOSO
Performance and Flying Qualities Engineer
GEA/EPF - 012-3927-2336
jefferson.fragoso@embraer.com.br |
| 01/23 |
An informal update from the
CFA; tough couple of days ahead.....!
Dick Mangan
CFA = Country Fire Authority, Australia |
| 01/23 |
My answer to Chip's question about motivation:
I am a lady firefighter and I 've done it for 4 seasons going on my 5th
. What motivates me about doing what I do is the adrenaline (sure) but,
theres alot more to it then that, I get fulfillment out of knowing I
helped save someones house, or someones life, and helping to preserve the
forests for future generations to enjoy.
hope to see you out there this coming season and be safe out there.
-AK- |
| 01/23 |
Tahoe Terrie,
You hit on another very good reason, Family!! I do not care if you
fight wild land fires or building fires. I do not care if you work for a
Paid fire Department, or you are a volunteer, you are a part of my family.
A good example of this was on Sept. 9/11. I was at work with family when I
heard that the tower came down, I never thought about the policeman, or
the civilians. My thought was oh my god, I just lost a lot of brothers,
and sisters. There was no question in my mind that said they were outside.
when the tower came down. My family (all of) would be in the middle of the
danger.
Be safe always
Mike |
| 01/23 |
MEL -40 is the real deal this year. It seems every year about this time
fire managers cry gloom and doom, then as the season unfolds $$ get
funneled down to save the day. Well this year is going to be different.
Not sure how many of you remember 1985, but (at least in R1) after the
gloom and doom speeches the $$ never came down the pike! I can see that
happening this year. We over spent the national fire budget last year
folks (Big Time) and that wasn't suppose to happen since we hired a big
workforce to keep fires small. I think the new administration is going to
slap our hands over it by not giving the $$ to even cover the folks we
hired under the NFP.
What's next? Out Sourcing?
Have a good day.
Lefteye |
| 01/23 |
Nomad & Sezno"
Good history in the Classification issue.
FWFSA is seeking the assistance of our Congressional contacts regarding
Classification. Congressman John Doolittle will be asked to "Direct
OPM" to work on our classification issues. Basically, OPM is swamped
with the Classification of all those Homeland Security Agency people.
Unless a ranking member of Congress request OPM to give us time. We might
just wait until the Agency, " Agriculture & Interior Heads"
put together a National Fire Plan.
We know the issues of classification, retention and pay benefits will
be included in this National Fire Plan. (Its called outsourcing -
Contracting.)
FWFSA has been at the Classification talks, first on our legislation is
the Portal to Portal, second is Hazard Pay calculated toward retirement.
The 108th Congressional session does in fact present opportunity to
resolve our classification issues. DOD Firefighters are just now getting
their positions checked, not to be finished until 2004. Call me a Wildland
Firefighter, Forestry Tech, Park Ranger or Range Tech. Pay me Portal to
Portal alongside those City/Local/State getting the same. The agencies do
not want to give up the work force as Firefighters. I think that OPM can
come up with a classification. Accomplishment of Resource and Fire
Management objectives in a Wildland fire series. The agencies will not
change the system now.
Legislation or Congressional oversight is needed. Interesting
"They Said" postings of the past, alot of people dont want to
change their classification. They enjoy going to fires when they are
needed. Yes.......... "They Said" is a great place to have
discussions about the History of Wildland firefighters. Thanks for the
posting.
Niedermeyer |
| 01/23 |
Nomad
I know the frustration you all feel. I started out as a FS seasonal and
have since become a 0081 firefighter. I was hired as a GS-0081-04 hotshot
with benefits and an appointment, almost like a eighteen and eight. I
eventually worked my way into a shift position but still get out for
assignments with our helitack team and the crew. If it helps at all, a
certain DOD hotshots crew which currently gets paid portal to portal is
getting a rewrite on there OPM job description to include wildland
firefighting. This will raise their pay and GS level to FS standards and
beyond. If they can do it, maybe changing series for all federal
wildlanders could solve the portal to portal issue, benefits, pay and
better fit your job descriptions.
Jr. |
| 01/23 |
Sez Nomore,
The U.S. O.P.M. does have another job classification series which is a
primary Firefighter, (081). Many of the agencies you mentioned,
primarily the Defense dept. components Use this classification for there
firefighters, some may have a few forestry or range techs, but for the
most
part all are 081 Firefighters. Wildland fire suppression is part of the
classification standard, as well other types of fire service functions.
Vandenberg AFB in CA has a Hot Shot crew which I believe are classified as
081 Firefighters, on a 80 Hr. pay period. A normal 081 Firefighter would
have a 144Hr. or 112 Hr. Pay period depending on their work schedule.
The NPS has 1 full time, full service Fire Dept which uses 081
Firefighters,
and those Firefighters are able to take fire assignments the same as other
red-carded personnel in their agency. The NPS has a few other 081
personnel
scattered around the country. (025) Park Rangers may perform full service
fire and EMS duties as well, depending on the park and their position
description. The (025) series has many categories and can be used for just
about any job i.e.. Park Ranger- Visitor Protection, Park Ranger
Interpretation, Park Ranger Fire and Resource management etc.
I work for the U.S. Army, and though I am an 081 Firefighter, probably 65-
70% of my duties are Wildland Fire related.
Hope this helps.
Josh |
| 01/22 |
Hey All, I want to alert you to something.
Megan Smaker is a 22 year old seasonal firefighter with CDF (SCU).
She is one of the three people who are thought to be kidnapped in
Panama while on her 3 months off. Last year she spent her time off
working to find landmines in Afghanistan.
Here are some articles about the current situation.
SacBee Article: www.sacbee.com
CNN: www.cnn.com
Please keep her and the others in your prayers.
AL
|
| 01/22 |
The person who murdered Jerry Levitoff in Januaary 2000 got life in
prison without chance of parole. Jerry was the airtanker base manager at
Chester and a fine guy with the big picture on the ground or in the air.
www.plumasnews.com/
TC2 |
| 01/22 |
Hi all-
Just came across an interesting press release from January 15: "USDA
Forest Service to Train FDNY in Incident Command Management to Bolster
Homeland Security Efforts". Here's the link to the press release
about the
Forest Service assisting FDNY with incident management team development:
www.usda.gov/news/releases/2003/01/0010.htm
Sounds like great news - good to see Forest Service leadership in this
area!
Also - there is a big Newcastle's Disease outbreak in chicken populations
in CA & NV with serious economic impacts. Looks like the Forest
Service
and some other folks are working on it also... there's links to state and
federal sites at: www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/south/fwx/operations/osc-archive/notes.html.
--ICS Addict |
| 01/22 |
Another link for you Abs...
More Canberra fire pics http://canberrafires.xsnet.org/
OB |
| 01/22 |
Chip, Mike, Ab,
After my first summer of fighting fire to earn money for school, it got
"in the blood" for me, too. I went back to school that fall,
changed my major to natural resources and have continued on working with
the Feds. There's something about working physically hard at something
worthwhile, setting goals and attaining them even if the fire might cross
the line later, feeling like you are "family" with your crew and
others you work so hard with. Ab, I agree, there's nothing like feeling
you're helping.
Yeah, adrenalin too, guess that's one way to put it, having to be alert
and aware for hours and days on end and sometimes having to decide and act
quickly because your life or your crews lives might depend on it. Walking
the swordblade without falling off. There were times after that first
summer when I thought I was addicted. Holy guacamole, it was a relief to
find out that others felt the same way. Addicted together.
There was a Joseph Campbell quote I once heard that said something like
every person is in search of the thing that makes them feel especially
alive (or something like that). I wish I had written it down. If anyone
knows it, please share.
What exactly motivates me? Hard to say, I can't imagine life without
fire, really being alive without fire. More than a job, more than a
career. More like a calling.
Tahoe Terrie
Chip, there was a thread on theysaid about a year and a half ago
entitled "Just one more time". You could check the archives.
Firefighters who were retiring wrote in with the things they would like to
see or do or experience just one more time before they retired from fire.
You see, often firefighters don't know exactly which fire season will be
their last. Ab. |
| 01/22 |
Ab,
This year the National Fire Plan Award was given to Matt Reidy
(USFS-Oregon), George Chesley (USFS), Doug Ledgerwood, and Jeff Pendleton
(USFS-Oregon) last week in New Orleans at the National Fire Plan meeting.
Here's some info on the award.
Four offices in Oregon, led by these four fire management officers,
blazed a unique path to meet their most efficient level, or MEL, target
for suppression resources by focusing first on local communities. They
each hired local contractors as part of their MEL organization to fill
staff positions on staff engines.
By using contractors, these forests not only ensured adequate fire
staffing, they added jobs to the local economy.
These fire management officers worked closely with their zone
contracting officers to identify specifications for the contracts and
the opportunity to use indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity
contracts. One of the greatest benefits of the contracts was that they
actually increased the capability of the forests as they responded to
initial attack, and they blended contract resources into daily work
assignments alongside agency personnel.
K |
| 01/22 |
TC,
I was told MEL-40 by my DFMO the other day at our district fire shop
meeting. At the same meeting I was told National Shared Resources funded
at
100%. That all I know, anyone else got the scoop?
Backburnfs |
| 01/22 |
Sezno,
My friend, you must be new, because TheySaiders have been bitching for
years about that exact issue. Wildland fire fighters do not have a
category of their own in the eyes of the Office of Personnel Management.
It's been like that since the beginning as far as I can tell. And i can
almost guarantee you that every federal wildland fire fighter that posts
here-no matter how high in the ranks- is technically classified as a
forestry or range technician. It's just the way it is.
In my speculation, I think that this grew out of the forestry practices of
old where fire was a collateral duty that ALL federal land management
employees had to participate in. The designation of fire fighter was an
aside, one of the many land management duties required by the limits on
resources available and a product of the simple fact that fire is a
seasonal -rather than constant- occurrence. So to this day, you have
wildland fire crews doing brush removal, trail work, and general
maintenance, and vice versa. You won't find any city fire fighters in the
same boat, I guarantee. In fact, you probably won't see any CDFers (CA
State) taking on collateral duties either, except for maybe the con crews.
It is what is know as the militia style of fire management within the
federal land mgt agencies. The concept is a flexible, efficient way of
managing resources, but it has thus far let its primary fire folks slip
through the cracks in terms of the benefits that are due to recognized
fire fighters by federal law, in particular the Fair Labor Standards Act
of 1972 (says stuff about portal to portal pay, etc).
But good to see that you're catching on.
-The Nomad |
| 01/22 |
AB,
Here's an addition to the acronym list:
WFLC - Wildland Fire Leadership Council
www.fireplan.gov/wflc_nfp_council.html
But even on their homepage the letters are mixed up:
"The Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WLFC) was established in April
2002 ...."
KM |
| 01/22 |
What motivates firefighters:
To the person that wants to know why we do it.
If you ask most fire fighters that question, most of them say that they do
it to help others. I will say that is part of it, but it goes farther than
that for me.
I started when I was 16 years old. I liked it, but didn't know why, and at
times I had to witness some very ugly things, and over the many years have
seen a lot more. That didn't stop me, I wanted more. You will hear people
say that it gets in your blood, this is probably the most truth. I will
explain later. Like I said I started when I was 16 with a structural Fire
Department. Since that time I fought fires in the Navy, I was a paid fire
fighter, a volunteer fire fighter in two very large fire departments (and
some small ones) and now I am doing Wild Land Fire for the State of
Montana.
That's a total of 30 plus years, and the one thing that I can say about
all of it that keeps me doing it is
# 1- adrenalin rush, and
# 2 Taking on such a wild thing, and most of the time coming out on top.
If all fire fighters really look at it they will say that this is true for
them too. The adrenalin is the blood connection.
Please be safe out there.
Mike |
| 01/22 |
FEDERAL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS:
My eyes are opened every day.... how many Federal agencies are hiring
folks
as "Wildland Firefighters" or... in the other general biological
series to
perform duties as wildland firefighters? That is... "any" series
from
0400-0499 that have any firefighting duties!!!
So far, I have heard and documented the following federal agencies who
have
federal wildland firefighters but do not recognize them, either through
position, classification, or pay.
USDA Forest Service
USDI Bureau of Land Management
USDI Fish and Wildlife Service
USDI National Park Service
USDI Bureau of Indian Affairs
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
U.S. Army
U.S. Marine Corps
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Navy
U.S. Coast Guard
Dept. of Veterans Affairs
F.E.M.A. (Thru agreements)
.... are there any more?????
Sezno More |
| 01/21 |
Photos from Australia -- Canberra, the Snowy Mountains area, and of the
Australian Parliament House:
Abs,
Here are some pics of fire approaching homes at Canberra.
A series of the Parliament House at 1000, 1400 and 1500. This
is the equivalent of your Congressional Building. It's located in
Canberra.
Also have had some pics sent thru to me by some in my Communications
Group who had the forward comms van in the Snowy Mountains area.
Once again it's heating up this weekend with 39 deg C (102 F) for
Sat,
& 42 (106 F) for Sunday. You don't have to be nuts to do this
job but
jeez it helps!!!!
Cheers
OB
Thanks OB. I put them on the Fire
16 photo page. Amazing how dark the sky got at the Parliament House by
3PM. What time of day were the other dark shots taken? Ab. |
| 01/21 |
The Jobs, Series
462 and 455
pages are updated.
Some new jobs up.
Also some new Classifieds up.
Anybody need help or contacts on the Stihl Heroism Award nominations, give
a holler. Apps can be found by clicking on the banner at the top of the
page.
Ab. |
| 01/21 |
Backburnfs
Where are you getting your info on the MEL -40? Last we heard on our
forest we would be getting + or - 5% of last years
budget......................
TC |
| o1/21 |
My good friend Euan Ferguson, Chief Fire Officer of South Australia's
Country Fire Service (CFS) in Adelaide, was quoted in this morning's
Sydney Morning -Herald:
"I am simply not prepared to risk the lives of volunteer
firefighters to save a home where the owner has failed to take even the
most basic bushfire precautionary measures."
"Bushfires are a natural part of the Australian landscape, and if
people want to live in the semi-urban areas then they have to be
accountable for their own safety."
"They need to have done prevention work before a crisis occurs and
not sit back, do nothing and expect the cavalry to come to the rescue at
the last minute."
"People often die in bushfires because they panic at the last
minute, throw the family photos in the car and speed off as flames are
licking at the back door. That is too late to act rationally."
Talk about a real fire leader for the 21st century, either in
Australia, the US, or many other parts of our world................!
Dick Mangan |
| 01/21 |
Report from Australia, Victoria's Country Fire Authority:
Good morning all
It is 0310 and I have been robbed of my much needed beauty sleep.
Another 24 hour shift. We have just put together a pumper/tanker task
force for assets protection and a tanker strike team for immediate
deployment to the fires in the NE.
The fires have broken their containment lines and are currently
threatening the communities of Stanley, Eldarado, Yackandandah, Wodonga,
Barnawatha, Bright, Wandiligong, Freeburg, Smoko, Tawanga South, Mt
Beauty and Germantown areas. They are expecting another Canberra with
losses expected.
Residents in the area have been advised to be alert for spot fires
throughout the night and implement their bushfire plans. Residents have
also been advised to make the decision to stay or go.
Extreme fire behaviour has made direct attack on the fire impossible.
Fire crews are now concentrating on assets protection and constructing
control lines. Fire spread is very rapid (14 km/hr or 8.7 mi/hr)
with the fire
producing its own weather. There is frequent active long range spotting
occurring making containment impossible.
The current weather forecast indicates hot weather in the low 30's (86F+)
until
Thursday before heating up to 38 (100F) on Friday and 40 (104F)
on Saturday.
There are no indications of rain or lightning activity during this period.
And guess who is duty this weekend. ME.
Must go though.
Remember Fire Fighters watch out when they are unfamiliar with weather
and local fire behaviour.
Regards,
CFA Fire Officer
Good sense of humor in spite of the tough times. Be Safe. Ab.
|
| 01/21 |
Hello,
My name is Chip Evans and I am a student at Baker College in Auburn Hills,
MI. For my
organizational psychology class, I need to find an interview by a
firefighter on what motivates
them in their workplace. While I was searching, I came across your Web
site and was wondering
if you knew where I might be able to find such an interview, or if you
would be able to answer
a couple questions. Any help you could give me would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks.
Chip
Chip, I can't speak for others, but a large part of what motivates me
is that I feel I'm contributing - that I'm doing something of service that
is unique and, at times, profound. Wildland firefighting community, what
say you? Ab. |
| 01/21 |
Ab,
Here's another photo of a 212 making a drop on the Sadler fire, ELKO
BLM, Nevada 1999. The spots on the photo are bits of crud kicked up from
the drop. The helo passed very close to my position on the hill top and
blew a lot of stuff into the air.
FedFire
Put it on Helicopters 9. Ab.
|
| 01/21 |
Ab,
Very nice website! Here is a few additional photos for your site. I
hope you like them and will use them on your site.
Al Hymers
Thanks Al for the Superscooper and Martin Mars photos. That you in
the Scooper cockpit? I put them on the Airtankers
6 photo page. Readers, if you want a few more details, go to the photo
description page. For those interested, there are more photos of these two
ships on the Airtankers 2 photo page.
Ab.
|
| 01/20 |
Hey Ab's, everyone is freaking out/flipping out about "Where all
the NFP $ went."
MEL(-40) Welcome to reality folks, what did you actually think the gravy
train would last? The prudent fire managers out there knew the well would
dry up, and planned accordingly. They didn't go out and fill all the new
positions that they might have under the "full funding"
scenario. Many chose to hire contractors to fill the suppression positions
during the summer rather than hiring a bunch of new PSE's that would have
to have their tours reduced or get RIFFED. Now we have many engines
sitting idle but still costing F.O.R. We have TEMP employees that had a
job for a couple of seasons that are not getting rehired this season.
One good thing, I guess, a lot of engines will be running with all PSE
crews. Something a lot of folks have wished for a long time. (Be careful
what you wish for.)
Look back in the archives and I bet some people predicted this, maybe
because they have been around long enough to have seen this before.
I don't have all the answers, just hoping that we learn and next time the
$$ flows we don't over build the organization.
Backburnfs
It would be a different world if Sept 11 had not happened. Ab.
|
| 01/20 |
Andy,
I ditto Stu. You've got the cart before the horse. Before you go to
much further, check out the contracting primer in the FAQ section. It's
not going to be easy to find a QUALIFIED engine boss. You'll learn fast
enough that there is more to successful fire contracting than having an
engine in your driveway and waiting for the phone to ring.
Word on the street is that everyone from your Aunt Bessie to your old high
school English teacher have bought a wildland engine to contract
with....Especially in Region 6. Could be a very interesting summer for
dispatchers and contract officers. They may need bodyguards before this is
all over...
Good luck with your new endeavor.
Snake River Sparky |
| 01/20 |
Andy,
Finding quality crew and keeping them is the harder part of running an
engine operation. Pay will range greatly from company to company, we pay
180-250 a day per person in wages + expenses. dont forget uncle sam. You
need to get licensed in your state, get a DOT number for interstate
business. Tax identification Number. You're going to have to get set up
with the regions on the EERA (emergency equipment rental agreement) this
isnt a guarantee of work, just an agreement to work your engine that the
gov has already inspected for an agreed upon price.
If you're in R6 - good luck, there are already over 600 pieces of
apparatus available. Being a single engine company will be difficult. True
there will be less employment hassles, less paperwork and worries, but you
are trying to run a business. If your engine is not equipped with loose
inventory - nozzles, nomex, hand tools, etc. It will cost just shy of
8,500.00 for the minimum engine inventory. Ab can give you my email
address if you need more info (abs are good about that ;)
Good luck - read snake river sparkys letter on the FAQs
page. he is a professional writer and makes it much more clearer than i
can.
ericPW |
| 01/20 |
Andy,
Sounds to me like you "bought the cart before the horse." Have
you tried contacting a local forest contracting office? Are you
planning on being an active part of the engine operation or are
you planning on "just sitting back and let the money roll in"?
Stu |
| 01/20 |
Ab:
I wanted to thank all of the folks on the Battle Mountain BLM District for
all of their assistance during the last fire season. I had a nice stay up
in hell.
Everyone needs to look ahead for this season, it may be time for some
folks to start looking for other opportunities on other districts,
developing associated skills and abilities.
Rumor control says no more 7 day staffing, just 3 persons five days per
week. The new engine will go to Austin station since BAM got that engine
last year, which is a type 3 and the new rig is a type-4. Engine ENVY?.
Where did the NFP $$$$$$ all go.
Some folks will have to work less ( pay periods ) since some one wants to
buy TOYS which will cut into the budget, lifes tough to be PFT. Yup Yup,
which truck will I buy and where will I go fishing on my A leave this
weekend.
Heads up this season its warming up and drying out even January looks like
fire weather. PS Hey DUDE; Get that TFM paper done, then we''ll go
fishing,
TTFN .b-Weasle |
| 01/19 |
Abs & Dick,
Unfortunately that's not the end of it. Dick, the Mt Stromlo Observatory
where you gave your speech on firefighter safety a few years ago has now
been destroyed. Pat "Grumpy" Barling who helped facilitate your
attendance
lost his car which was at their station, and their station has been
destroyed. The ACT Fire Service has 12 career stations, the ACT Bush Fire
Council has 6 volunteer brigades. Basically they were overwhelmed, even
with assistance coming from NSW. On top of the details in the link from
Concerned Citizen, they have lost 4 firefighting appliances. Tomorrow
(Tuesday) is looking like being very pear shaped with the weather outdoing
Dick's posting of Sunday's (yesterday) weather. We'd had some nice
pleasant
weather over the past weeks. Methinks Mother Nature was being a bitch.
cheers all
OB
Yesterday for you is still today for us. Be safe. Ab. |
| 01/19 |
Ab ,
I was going through last year's contract and came across
"requirement",
for 2003, s-230 Crew Boss Training will be required of all ENGBs, page
3. Contractors, contract.
Oddie |
| 01/19 |
Aussie Fires
Just received several Emails from friends in the Victoria and Tasmania
fire services in Australia: the Sunday afternoon temps in Adelaide (South
Australia) were 113F (45C), and Monday's fire weather in Victoria
(Melbourne area), New South Wales (Sydney and surrounding area) and
Tasmania is forecasted as "extreme".
The Volunteers are getting run ragged, and all for no pay, too!
Dick Mangan |
| 01/19 |
I have recently purchased an engine. I am going to hire a crew, and I am
wondering how readily available ENGBs are or for the rest of the crew for
that matter. I am curious of the rates of pay, and other information
relating to engines and their crews.
Thank You
Andy |
| 01/19 |
Could this be the future of the Lake Tahoe area with all the beetle
killed trees?
www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/19/1042911271082.html
Concerned Citizen |
| 01/19 |
Here is the press release page at the New
South Wales Rural Fire Service site. The link to this site can be
found on our Links
page along with other Aussie sites. Download for the NSW page is slow
depending on the time. Australia is 23 hours ahead of our PST so it is
evening there now.
More news updates also on the Fire News page.
Our thoughts are with you Aussies.
Ab. |
| 01/18 |
Ab,
Well things have gone down the ….
Fire had been burning for up to 10 days previously but Sat the dragon let
loose.
Canberra (in the Australian Capitol Territory) the nation’s capitol is
in real trouble, 2 people dead, 3 critically burnt and over 150 treated
for smoke inhalation. Some 380 plus houses burnt down yesterday due to
very hot temperatures, low humidity and high winds. Interstate crews
arrived in Fri and Sat but were totally overwhelmed.
Very large fire are burning in the rugged forest areas in the Snowy
Mountains (NSW) and all the way down into Victoria.
No real let up on the weather expected for the next week.
More later. Regards
Aussie CFU
Check out the Australia Fires category on the News
page for many articles on the fires. You Aussies, Be SAFE. Ab. |
| 01/18 |
Number of assignments
I basically agree with you but have a few points, Consider how often
engine crews turn into handcrews on IA and how many times we are often
called upon to perform assignments we are not "qualified" for so
when we finally get that training assignment it is hardly our first
exposure to the task, just the first time we have been allowed to get
credit in our task book.
I agree it is unlikely that someone would get their initial single
resource task book signed off in one assignment and not every assignment
is going to offer enough exposure for even experienced people to get
signed off in one time out. But sometimes the combination of prior
experience and the quality of the assignment make that possible.
I have seen this requirement for two assignments pulled out on several
occasions when a task book was completed and most have been less than
concern for the quality of the job done, it is applied in an uneven
fashion and not tied to experience or assignment quality. I saw highly
experienced people with good 14-21 day assignments forced to take another
assignment and other less experienced people who worked a shift of mop up
allowed to pass with only one assignment. It was managements way of
rewarding their buddies and keeping others out of the system.
In summery my complaint is not with the actual requirements as to pre
reqs or a minimum number of assignments, I'm fine with either. My problem
is with the people who don't follow the standards as written. If
management wants CRWB to be a preq for all other Single resource bosses
and a minimum number of assignments then do it, but come up with a
standard and stick with it. In my experience these extra little
requirements generally are management tools to control people.
When I was going for my ICT4 the FMO sat me down after a few
assignments and had a little chat with me on issues unrelated to my job
performance (I always received fully successful) or on my performance as
an ICT4, then h | |