"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
February, 2003
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 02/28 |
Van driver Helm sentenced; Glenwood Springs Post, 2/27
www.postindependent.com
The article said $200 fine and 60 hours of community service that was
corrected to 50 hours of community service today.
DF |
| 02/28 |
To FF Eric re the Mtn Top Dist on the SBNF:
I work for the folks with the red engines in Arrowhead, so you'll have to
check with your own agency about their hiring plans. My time on the green
trucks was some time ago. I'll see you this summer, hopefully on a
multi-agency drill, and not on a fire incident amongst the houses.
JB |
| 02/28 |
Thank you so much for your wonderful site! I know it is going to be
helpful for the upcoming season. My Significant Other is a ff and heads
out west as often as possible. In Virginia we are out of harms way for the
big fires, but they head out there every year, keeping my stomach in
knots. I just wanted to say thank you for all that you have posted on the
site, and I look forward to becoming involved with your boards as he heads
out again this summer!
Thanks a bunch!
Tonya T
Bedford, Virginia
Welcome Tonya, we do have a FamilySaid page that takes a break in the
off-season. But people writing in there have some good comments and
provide support and information when fires are a ripping. And if you have
a question for firefighters, you can ask here. Ab. |
| 02/28 |
I am saddened by the passing of Paul Gleason, but glad to hear his
struggle is over. He will be missed. He was a fine person, a true leader,
and an incredible advocate and a real professional. I am proud to have
known him and felt his influence. We owe him much. Rest in peace Paul.
Sign me,
Mike DeGrosky |
| 02/28 |
To NM Air Bear, thanks for the info!!!- FMR-RSIXER |
| 02/28 |
FMR-RSIXER
The photo on Crews-7 is of the Carlsbad Interagency Crew, posted recently
but mislabeled as the Carlsbad Hotshots. This T2 crew of agency regulars
hailed from Carlsbad, NM, in R03. This crew was out there regularly from
1988-98 and was well known in R03.
There was one assignment in R06 where they were erroneously called the
Carlsbad Hotshots but their now retired FMO went mildly ballistic and
kyboshed that misnomer mid-assignment when he heard about it.
An unfortunate sign of the times is that this crew can no longer be
assembled due to a general shortage of collateral duty line qualified
personnel in Southeast NM.
NMAirBear |
| 02/28 |
I was cruising through the photos page, and in crews-7
came across a photo of the Carlsbad hotshots?? from 1998. I don't
recognize this crew, and havent seen them around. Are they, or were they a
training crew? What region? They aren't listed in any of the regional
pages, or the IHC pages. Does anyone have any info on them?
Just Curious -
FMR-RSIXER |
| 02/28 |
JB
I'm a seasonal on the Mtn. Top, hoping to transfer to the Arrowhead
district where I live. With our new snow when do the white helmets predict
to bring us back on? How long do the logging companies think it will take
to get rid of the "red trees". I can't wait to get back to work,
I just hope it isn't fighting that "Big One" in the backyard of
my house.
FFEric |
| 02/28 |
Regarding the firefighter fitness testing turmoil:
I been out of the FS for almost two decades now working for an oil
company......so my opinion about this might not count diddly to a lot of
you.....but man, you can't help but think that this Pack Test thing has to
be an improvement, you know? ANYTHING that promotes....okay, maybe even
'forces'....a person to get in real good shape before fire season has to
be a good thing, doesn't it?
I was an R-5'r, and I did the IHC thing for some years, and loved it. Over
my 13 FS years, I kept my red card up and kept my hand in the fire
organization even though I moved into a non-fire part of the agency. I
always used to razz the people who had trouble passing the Step Test.
Sometimes I would even taunt them by drinking my coffee and smoking Salems
while taking the test and then I would STILL pass. I realize now how
insensitive and rude that was....but what the hell...it was the 70's and I
was thin and young and cocky. The thing was....and here is the
key.....during the eight month off-season, I was exercising regularly.
Even despite my smoking habit, I'll bet it was a rare week that I did not
have at least 5 or 6 workouts of one kind of another. I would jog, swim,
bike, work the heavy bag, lift weights. It was not uncommon for me to jog
18-miles a week or so. A smoking jogger....I know, it made no sense.
Later on, though, things got tough with the physical conditioning. 'What
goes around, comes around', we all know that. I quit the smokes, and
dogged the exercise a lot and then heredity and poor eating and drinking
habits also took their toll. The weight came on. Before long I was having
considerable trouble squeezing my fat ass into those green nomex pants,
and there wasn't a whole hell of a lot of slack in the yellow shirt
either. But I STILL didn't have any trouble passing that Step Test and
getting my red card. Then a year or two later, just for old times sake, I
went out on a fire over in the San Jacinto's with my old IHC. They said
they were short a man and couldn't make the trip without me. Sure enough,
they drew a nasty hotline assignment. I kept up with the guys, but it was
a struggle, and they knew it. I was a shadow of my former lead-sawyer
self. They finally took some pity on me and put me at the back of the tool
order behind the McLeods as an observer/weather lookout or something.
Maybe they were worried I would keel over on them or something. Should I
have really been out there in the first place? Probably not, if I am
honest about it. Had this Pack Test thing been in place then.....I
probably would NOT have been there, because I likely could not have passed
it in the shape I was in.
Then a year later, they transferred me to a WET part of Region 4 where
there really wasn't any fire to speak of and then three years after that,
I left altogether for more money.
But hey.....the whole point about this is....you gotta work out and
exercise to really do fire right and to do right by yourself. That is the
bottom line. There is NO FREE LUNCH in life. Life is a struggle from the
time we take a breath until they lower us down....and we might as well get
used to it. It is not easy....it never will be.
Firefighting is a young person's game, really. It always was, and probably
always will be. If you are not young anymore...or if you are hampered by
slow metabolism and heredity-fat -- then you better put the odds in your
favor and exercise like a scalded monkey. We all should do that. The
alternative is weighing 300+ lbs., diabetes, heart problems, poor sex
lives, shorter lives, and shot knees.
One of my old Hot Shot friends is still a Smokejumper up in McCall at age
53. He trains the young guys, but i think he still makes some jumps and
fires, at least he was a few years back. He's thin as a rail, and fit, and
you just gotta respect that. He could have taken the easy road and let
himself go over the years like I did a lot of the time, but he did not.
I'm gonna keep exercising, just cause I need to do that. I don't like the
alternative. I'll never never be back where I was when I was younger, but
I don't have to compound the problem.
You guys all know this: being in shape can mean making the ridge or safety
zone in time or not. It can mean hanging in there on the line, or going
nipples-down. So keep in shape, or get in shape, and keep the Pack Test or
something equivalent. Life is what we make it, and sometimes if we are not
forced into making a goal, or going over a high bar, we won't do it. We
never get there. So lace up those gym shoes and get your butts out
there....you haven't got much time! Amen.
Semi-Frozen Ex FF |
| 02/28 |
I did not know Paul Gleason as a firefighter, I knew him as a teacher. I
work at Colorado State University and have often taken advantage of the
"one free class a semester" benefit at the University. A year
ago I decided to deter from the graduate level engineering classes that I
had been indulging in for decades and divert into the Forestry Department
to take their "Wildland Fire Behavior" class. You see I have
been a volunteer firefighter "on the side" for 20 years and
thought I would take the class and finally get my certifications.
On the first day of class, in walked Paul - full of energy, clearly truly
in love with his chosen profession, but perhaps a bit nervous about the
prospect of teaching 50-60 college students. Throughout the course of the
semester he did a great job of conveying his incredible depth of knowledge
about wildland fire behavior. With 20 years of firefighting experience I
wasn't expecting to learn a lot and was just looking to nab the
certification. Boy was I wrong.
I was really taken in by the science of wildland fire behavior. Frankly, I
don't think a more "academic" teacher would have done as good a
job of "sucking me in" to the subject. Paul was not always the
ideal teacher - chiding us for not skipping class when he thought the day
was too nice and we should be out snowboarding or just enjoying this
beautiful planet. Paul's love of his job and wealth of knowledge about the
subject came through in everything he shared with us and I will always be
grateful for having him as my instructor.
It is always a great experience to learn from someone who truly loves what
they do. I hope he is getting to do a lot of rock climbing in his
"next life".
Thanks & Adios,
CJD |
| 02/28 |
Lanky's (Craig Lechleiter) Retirement Party
Sorry about the short notice, folks-
We thought everybody had received this flyer through the distribution
lists, but after reading MJ's post, apparently that wasn't the case.
Everybody's welcome. RSVP to Terri Silva (tsilva@fs.fed.us)
by March 6th.
If you aren't able to attend, I can pass along any messages to him at any
time.
Robert Holt
Redding IHC
(See attached file: Lanky's_Retirement_Party_Invitation.doc)
Here's the scoop. If you'd like us to send you the msword doc with a
map, etc, just holler.
Ab.
NCSC Employee's Association
Cordially Invites You to
Craig (Lanky) Lechleiter's
Retirement Party
Saturday, March 8, 2003
3:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m.
Anderson V.F.W. Hall
3210 West Center St.,
Anderson CA 96007
Everyone is welcome
Tickets are $15 per person (covers meal, gratuity, and gift).
Meal will be Chicken, tri-tip, and rib BBQ. There will also be a no-host
bar.
Please R.S.V.P. by March 6, 2003 to Terri Silva at tsilva@fs.fed.us or
call 530-226-2720. Make checks payable to NCSC Employee's Association. |
| 02/27 |
How about a Paul Gleason Award awarded annually to the person who
made the most contribution to Firefighter Safety?
GN |
| 02/27 |
Hi Ab.
had the honor of working with paul a few years ago on the arapahoe
roosevelt , I will truly miss him ...
erik davidson |
| 02/27 |
Paul
Gleason was presented with the Golden Pulaski Lifetime Achievement Award At
the 2001 National Hotshot Workshop
Hero of the Dude Fire, Father of LCES, and
Much, Much More
“Paul Gleason’s contributions to wildland
fire safety have not only been important, they have been life saving.
Besides firefighter Jeff Hatch—who owes his life to Paul’s heroic
actions on the tragic Dude Fire—I am certain there are many more men and
women still going about their lives on this earth due to Paul’s
unmatched leadership in wildland fire safety. On behalf of the thousands
of women and men in fire management all across the United States, I thank
you, Paul."
Michael Hilbruner
U.S. Forest Service’s National Applied Fire Ecologist
|
| 02/27 |
I was not fortunate enough to know paul personally. But his contribution
to
the entire fire community cannot be understated.
Best wishes to his family and friends.
Pulaski |
| 02/27 |
There have been some requests from folks who didn't know Paul that we
tell some of his accomplishments. Here's some information from one of the
nominations of Paul for the heroism award. Ab.
The nominating author writes:
I have worked as a wildland firefighter for 28 years. I have known no
single person in the fire management community who is more dedicated to
the safety of, firefighters and the public, than Paul Gleason.
My reasons for nominating Paul Gleason are many, but first and foremost
I think that Paul deserves recognition for a lifelong commitment to
safety and teaching firefighters how do their jobs effectively and with
a passion for safety.
Attached articles on fire safety that mention Paul Gleason are written
by Dale Cuyler, US Forest Service
Retired and Paul Keller.
The article mentions the fact that Paul Gleason is the author of LCES
(Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes and Safety Zones). LCES are the
rules that firefighters nation wide are required to enact on every shift
on every fire we fight. I believe that LCES has saved many lives since
the 1994 tragedy at the South Canyon fire in Colorado.
In 1990 at the Dude Fire in Arizona, there were six fatalities on the
Perryville Inmate Crew. Paul Gleason was the first one to get to the
fatality site. I don’t have all the facts but it seems that he was
instrumental in helping to save one of the Perryville Firefighter’s
life at that time. That firefighter was Mr. Hatch I believe.
Paul Gleason is more than deserving of your award. Please consider him
for this honor based on his service to the Wildland Firefighters around
the world.
|
| 02/27 |
For those of you who are not familiar with Paul Gleason's
accomplishments -- but maybe all of you are... Firescribe
On Paul Gleason, from the book “Fire Line – Summer Battles of the
West” by Michael Thoele (on the firebooks page)
“At forty-four, though he would not have claimed it for himself, he
ranked as one of the lesser fire gods. A Pacific Northwest hotshot crew
boss, he was something of a legend in his own time, a tough, aggressive,
intellectual firefighter who was the stuff of stories told in fire camps
from Alaska to New Mexico. In the world of Western wildfire, only two or
three hotshot bosses were seen as his equal.”
“He had marched through all the ranks in the infantry of forest fire.
He had paid his dues and earned his spurs. He was known as a man who
quoted Chinese philosophers, read books on the art of warfare, and, in
the off-seasons, was a rock climber who took on the big walls all over
the West. His was summoned often to teach fire tactics to others.”
|
| 02/27 |
To the family and friends of Paul, my thoughts and prayers to you. Our
fire community has lost a light. this morning when I read the post from
Merrill what came to mind is that resonating bell that is struck by the FS
Honor Guard in their ceremony.
Merrill, thanks very much to you for sharing some of the details of his
passing and for letting us know the supportive others and family who were
with him at the end. I hope you'll also let us know about the memorial
service.
I feel very blessed for having this fire community. Thanks to you Ab
and to those who worked with purpose to get in the nominations for Paul
for the Heroism Award.
Tahoe Terrie |
| 02/27 |
I always felt honored to be part of Paul's circle of friends. He always
had the uncanny ability to be insightful and hilarious simultaneously.
Paul occupied the top notch on my leadership stick and always will. There
is so much I can say....one could write a book... but words are eluding
me.
My prayers to his family. Goodbye Paul.
DM |
| 02/27 |
May God smile on Paul, now in a better place.
His legacy includes the many friends he left behind in so many quarters
and the memories we all share of better times. Let us not forget the many
solid contributions that Paul made to make the wildland fire profession a
safer and more productive one. He will be dearly missed!
NMAirBear |
| 02/27 |
Sad news. Paul will be missed.
Backburnfs |
| 02/27 |
Our loss -- a blessing for Paul Gleason
To all who read and share this via email, I'm saddened to share with you
that Paul Gleason passed away just a few hours ago this morning. Clearly
he was suffering beyond what any human is prepared to endure, though I can
say that he lived through his recent illness with the same class and grace
we have all known of him over the years. It might interest you that his
never-ending desire to read and learn had focused even this week yet on
the
commonalities between Buddhism and Christianity. While he wanted so much
to continue to enjoy many riches he felt here in his life, clearly also he
believed he would go to a better place.
Karen obviously is taking this very hard these first few hours. She has
been a true blessing to Paul, and her warmth and caring for him has been
beautiful to observe. Paul's brother arrived last night, and both of them
were with Paul when he died. Hospice people, with their wonderful
resources, are also there to help. Karen and I had talked about a memorial
service, and I suggested this morning that it need not be arranged
immediately to be held in the next few days, but rather might be held in
the next several weeks. I'm sure Karen and Paul's brother, and Sarah,
myself and several others who can contribute, will put together a plan in
due time, and word will get to everyone.
For now, I can think of no better thing we might do than to say a prayer
of
thanks and blessing for Paul, and a prayer of comfort and grace for Karen
and Paul's family as they cope with our shared loss. And God's blessings
to each friend of Paul, who number many.
Merrill
So sad that Paul is gone. He will certainly live on in the many
significant contributions he made to our fire world. Please let us know
details of any services. Readers who contributed to the various Stihl
Heroism Award nominations for him, please consider sending in what you
wrote so we can compile it as a tribute. Thanks. Ab. |
| 02/27 |
Hello Wildland Fire --
I was on the El Cariso Hot Shots from 72' - -74 and worked with Harv
Dabling, who occasionally appears on your pages. I'd like to get in touch
with him -- do you have his email address?
Bruce Lymburn
We don't. Harv or anyone else, you reading? Ab. |
| 02/27 |
JB,
Where you been? You sound surprised that there are dead trees in the
woods.
Welcome to the forest health issue that has been around for about 25 years
or more in the Pacific NW, Rocky Mts. and most any other place that has
timber.
Loggers in So.Cal that is too cool, when they start hauling loads on the
Rim of the World get some pics and post them on They Said, I gotta see
that
one. How far they have to haul logs to find a mill down there? Probably
chip a lot of it due to rot, but there should be some merchantable timber
there.
Did you know that the San Berdoo was heavily logged back in the day to get
wood to build orange crates??
You're living history there, enjoy it and don't worry about the "Big
One".
Just hope the dispatchers let your engine go when it happens and don't
have
you standing by at Mormon Rocks or Devil's Canyon.
Been There. |
| 02/27 |
SoCalCapt, I just found this as I was searching following your email.
Thanks for the heads-up.
Readers, this post refers to Olddog's post of 2/22
on the Wildland firefighter series if you want to flip down to it for
reference. Some good comments here SoCal Capt. Thanks to you and others I
talked with at the Division Chiefs Mtg for fighting the "good
fight" for us. Ab.
~~~~~~~~~
Olddog... excellent post and some good info.... but it raised some
questions and concerns that I have.
The OPM did away with the Fire Control Series as a result of issues raised
during the first "SAFETY FIRST" study completed by the Forest
Service over a quarter of a century ago.
Olddogs post stated "Those series are established in part, to provide
technical assistance in the protection and management of forest and range
resource (according to OPM)". Once again he is right, but things have
changed. The qualification and rating standards from OPM refer to
technicians in support of the scientist. Nowadays, the scientist is at the
GS-15 or SES level and, for the most part, has very little fire
suppression or fire management experience. Those of us who were involved
in the R-5 Captains Audit know all too well how screwed up the rating and
qualifications standards are.
Question: Who is better to know Wildland Fire Science?
Choices:
1) a recently graduated college student with no experience as a (0460 or
0401) professional GS-9 or GS-11, or
2) a GS-7 or GS-9 Wildland Firefighter who has twenty years or more of
experience.
The answer is... the the former technicians have become the professionals
and the former professionals have become the supporting technicians when
it comes to wildland fire management.
Olddog, a quick comment about Title 5, FLSA as they specifically relate to
your question (0081 series only): For the 0081 series, the following items
are included in Title 5 -
-- Addresses Portal to Portal (you already mentioned this)
-- Addresses having to show that nasty little lunch break.
(no more arguing over that lunch break on the line)
-- Addresses what adequate lodging is (sure isn't a sleeping bag on
most occasions)
-- Addresses what adequate food is (usually not an MRE)
-- Addresses several other smaller issues.
Future things are on the horizon, "Federal Firefighters Presumptive
Disability" and "Federal Firefighters Retirement Reform".
These probably won't be the exact titles of the introduced legislation
when it happens but close. Wildland firefighters could be left out in the
cold again if their classification is not corrected and their rights not
protected.
SoCalCapt |
| 02/27 |
Looks like "Another J.W." drew out some lively responses to
her/his comments about the Pack Test, but needs to hear some of the
realities about it:
- First, Dr. Brian Sharkey developed the Pack Test while working as a
USFS employee at MTDC, not under a "grant".
- The first step of the process was, in fact, a Job Task Analysis that
was developed with input from hundreds of Federal and State fire
managers across the U.S.
- It's true that fatalities have occurred while practicing and/or
taking the Pack test. But would any reasonable physical exam have
detected a brain aneurysm, or genetic heart problem that caused some
of the deaths?
- There was extensive review by National and internationally credible
Medical organizations during the development of the Test processes and
procedures: a special study was done by Dr. Paul Davis, founder of the
structural fire "Combat Firefighter's Challenge". Dr. Davis'
study is available for anyone who asks from Brian Sharkey at MTDC.
- The Canadian "Par-Q" questionnaire is widely used for
health screening in a normally healthy workforce - are we to assume
that us wildland firefighters don't fit into that category?
- The Pack Test went thru numerous bureaucratic screens before
approval and implementation, including the Office of Personnel
Management (OPM), the USFS Unions, the National Fire Directors, the
legal beagles (OIG?), the AA/EEO folks, etc.
- If you believe that the Pack Test "has been used as a weapon to
demote, discriminate and to harass folks"......put up your proof
in writing. Some folks believe that the Holocaust never happened in
Nazi Germany, but just saying it "don't make it so!"
- The "Administrator's Guide" and videos were available from
the start; they've been modified and improved as lessons have been
learned.
- And finally, accountability: I believe that if a supervisor fails to
follow the processes for administering a Pack Test, they should be
held accountable. But, how about the firefighter who lies on her/his
questionnaire, or who fails to prepare correctly for the test as
detailed in all the available pubs: should they (or their heirs) be
held accountable, and not get any benefits, too?
- I know that there is an incredible amount of documentation available
at MTDC on the whole Pack test development process, and its available
to anyone who asks. I've read it, hopefully understood it, and I ain't
no Medical Doc....!
Mollysboy
Phe'w, good one. I had to go do a lil PT just to get in shape for
readin' it. Ab. |
| 02/27 |
Ab,
I work in Lake Arrowhead and we had a group meeting last week with the 20+
logging companies that are now working in the area to take out the massive
bug kill timber. There are lots more coming in for the work. One guy
estimated 10 to 15,000 truck loads of logs to get this stuff out of the
area. Not all of it can be used for lumber due to the length of time that
a lot of it has been standing dead. The logging experts all agreed that it
is much worse than the Tahoe episode.
We just received our first sizeable snowfall of the season yesterday, so
we can breathe a bit easier for a week or two. The snow adds a new factor,
namely now we have the dead trees and limbs falling down. Power was out
for almost 12 hours yesterday due to down electric lines and fallen trees.
I almost feel like I'm playing the Lotto on a daily basis when put my gear
on the engine. Is this shift going to be the day of the "Big
One"? It's weird putting your web gear and brush clothes on the
engine in the middle of winter.
JB
Be safe in them thar woods. Ab. |
| 02/27 |
Another JW
Give up your fight on the pack test. I will say that the pack test has no
bearing or will ever tell you how good of shape you are in. However it is
much better than what we had, the old test allowed fat and out of shape
people to keep there jobs that had no business being in the job they were
in. Have you ever taken a pack test if you have you sound like you failed
or came close to failing, and you are misdirecting the point just to keep
your job. You sound like a guy that will blame anyone else but yourself
just because you are out of shape. Take up the old man on his offer you
just might find out that working out is fun.
Flameboy |
| 02/27 |
Another jw,
Dude give it a rest. If you dont like the pack test, quit. Im sure there
are lots of other jobs out there for someone like you. Why worry about
others that have a hard time with the test? Thats their problem. Do you
really have some much time on your hands that you cant help but worry
about them? Concern for others is one thing, but you seem to be taking it
to a completely different level. Why dont you put some of your spare time
to use, say jogging??? In any case no one wants to read about the pack
test pissing match. Give it a rest!
driptorch d |
| 02/26 |
Cpt Chip:
Look in NFPA 1977 (1998 version) for the national standard on wildland
fire boots: 8" tall (minimum), leather, lace-up, non-skid sole;
steel/protective toe NOT required/recommended.
Mollysboy |
| 02/26 |
Some recent noteworthy awards from R5, reported by Firescribe.
Congratulations to all.
Cal Yarborough Award, 2003 awarded by the R5 Division Chiefs to one
of their own, the Division Chief of the year.
Hal Mortier
Regional Meritorious Service Award, 2002 awarded by the R5 Board of
Directors to one of their own, the FMO of the year.
Dave Kohut
Fire Instructor of the Year Award, 2003 co-recipients:
Dick McCombs, a "go to" guy, instructs S-430, S-400,
I-400 and many more.
Wes Shook who manages the Vandenberg Interagency Training Center in
SoCal, instructs in aviation training, ACE training and many other
classes.
The Horseshoe Bob Knob Award, 2003 awarded by Overacker to the most
ancient of R5 hotshot supts.,
Bob Bennett of Horseshoe Meadows IHC.
Story behind it: Last season, Horseshoe Bob's crew buggie lost a
dashboard knob, as these new crew buggies are wont to do. Overacker,
having recognized the weakness and having ordered extras, had a spare and
gave it to Bob. Now, over beers that night, Bob swears Overacker stole his
knob and then gave it back, planting another one later - the
"lost" one - under his buggie's seat so he could find it.
Overacker swears he was no thief. He simply was prepared and thus had a
spare knob to offer...
Words on the Horeshoe Bob Knob Award: "If Bob aint whining
about his knob, he's whining about something." |
| 02/26 |
Hey Ab,
We were in Big Bear a few weeks ago and could not
believe the tree kill. I would say a good 70% of the
trees were dead or dying. And this is in my opinion
from what the trees looked like from this time last
year. Since my hubby left the Big Bear in 2001 there
seems to have been more kill every year (We visit the
area often). Hillsides that were green now have a very
prominent Brown color to them. I would think that the
Mountain Top is going to have the potential of a
seriously dangerous fire situation.
firedog_0401's wife,
firechef03
ANF
Thanks for the info firechef03. Haven't been south lately. Could be a
rippin' season all along the Sierra. Ab. |
| 02/26 |
Anyone out there know where I can find official CDF or USFS
specifications
for wildland firefighting boots?
Thanks,
Captain Chip D
Newport Beach Fire Dept. CA |
| 02/26 |
another JW
You seem to be well versed in all of the big words and legal terms. My
question is, have you ever taken the pack/vest test and if so did you
pass, or are you complaining because you can't? Like I said before, do
about 3mi jog aday, 6 days a week and a little on the wt. machines and you
shouldn't have any problem. Offer to come and do it with me next month
still stands.
Old man of the Dept. 66 and closing on 67, but still fighting fire |
| 02/26 |
Another JW,
Put the doughnuts down, back away slowly, and don't make eye contact.
-AK- |
| 02/26 |
another jw-
I don't know who put the pack test burr under your saddle, but it's
beginning to fester. Let it go! If you hate the test so much that every
post you submit consists of whining about it, perhaps you aren't really
cut out to be a firefighter. Grow a pair (nuts or ovaries, just get a set
of something)!
-blackliner |
| 02/26 |
vfd capt,
Interesting article on the Challenger and implications for safety in the
wildland fire world. More than the token and dominant stuff,
I'm interested in the parallels for safety related to elite decisions
(also Dana's rant) and the current federal competitive outsourcing. But
you brought it up, let's talk about token/dominant relationships
and implications for safety.
Vaughan (1997) suggests that relationships between "tokens"
(minority in number, example minority race or gender, non-English
speaker, less educated, temps, less experienced, less senior) and "dominants"
may be harmful to safety on the fireground, but she doesn't really know.
She says these relationships should be studied, given findings from
research in corporate America.
For example she suggests we should explore how tokens and dominants
relate to one another and what can be done to develop reliable working
relationships between them. Sounds like a good idea. Another way to look
at this is to evaluate and enhance crew cohesion and crew leadership.
We're doing that.
She suggests that tokens might not get feedback (correction) that a
dominant would get. Well, on a fire crew, I would bet the tokens
get as much feedback as anyone else. Fire people don't pull any punches.
The culture supports feedback and lessons learned. Honest feedback is not
lacking in my experience. Heck, tokens might get more feedback.
They stand out from the pack. Likely, what they do -- right or wrong -- is
spotlighted because they are unique. Maybe Vaughan didn't think it PC to
say that tokens might even be picked on or have to work at proving
themselves -- that has happened too. In the past, some permanent part- or
full-time tokens (woman friends in this case) were denied training
opportunities on their home forests even after outperforming the men. They
were held back from progressing in their careers. I think to some extent
that has changed, due in part to their speaking out, but due also to their
performing and persisting. Also, some of those dominants stuck in
the old ways have changed and, well, if not, they eventually retire...
Times do change, albeit slowly sometimes.
Vaughan suggests that tokens might be underutilized. Maybe some
crews of contract tokens are. Maybe not. (Is a crew of tokens
really dominant in that case??)
Don't we use the good contract crews well? Most of the time, I think yes.
We'd be stupid not to. We just need a consistent standard and method for
telling who's good and who's not. The smartcard that's coming soon might
help to weed out the unsafe contractors, the poor performers, those with
lousy equipment or equipment they don't know how to operate and it will
likely help keep them from running to the next fire when sent home from
ours.
These days, we have many excellent tokens on crews. I think it
likely that some of these folks might have the inner drive to press beyond
their ability or current resources trying to "pull their
weight". On the good side, they help change the token
stereotypes and up the bar. However it's conceivable their striving might
occasionally jeopardize the safety of others.
Vaughan suggests that we study what happens "when a token
gives information, instructions, or assumes leadership on a fire".
Again at the crew level, I think what happens would depend on strength of
individual crewmembers, crew cohesion, inclusion, and the level of
leadership of the crew supt and squadies. Cohesion results from working
together under a variety of circumstances and settings over a period of
time so that you know and trust the strengths and recognize the current
limitations of your crewmates. It's clear that some crewmembers are
already leaders-in-the-making, regardless of whether token or dominant
to begin with. Some others will be leaders-in-the-making once they have a
chance to grow up a little. IMHO, not all can be leaders nor do they want
to be. All should have equal opportunity. If a crewmember knows how to
step into the leadership position from within themself and if the crew is
cohesive and inclusive, that person will be heard -- and followed if
appropriate, hopefully whether token or dominant. A leader
helps who mentors and fosters input when appropriate.
My guess is that cohesive crews get beyond the token and dominant
stuff to the real individual strengths and weaknesses, personalities and
foibles and differences of their crewmates. They get to respect and
community as a culture.
Mellie |
| 02/26 |
Large Passenger Vans:
I have driven large passenger vans of the type the ongoing discussion is
about. Empty they are OK...but even when loaded "properly" and
within designed specs they handle like a pig on ice. There is no
possibility of taking evasive action and retaining control. They are
simply not safe and have been acknowledged as such by a variety of stale
laws placing restrictions on their use. Even when they are brand new they
are very difficult to drive safely. Add a bit of suspension or steering
wear and they quickly become unmanageable in any emergency situation.
They were a cheap modification of a regular van which was ill thought out.
It provided a cheap alternative to a mini bus with an appropriate heavier
frame and suspension and so Ford (and Dodge, etc.) made money by selling
them to folks who assumed it was a safe alternative to the more expensive
rigs. Are the makers of these vans responsible for deaths which occur due
to their bad handling characteristics? Partly. That responsibility must
also be shared by those trying to save money by placing their employees in
these unsafe vehicles instead of a more appropriate rig.
The public schools were given a "heads up" years ago when they
were held partially responsible for children's injuries and deaths from
accidents in these vans. The fire community which apparently did not
notice that heads up has now been given their own.
Ironically Ford (etc.) may escape liability since they lowered the GVW on
these vans after the first spate of lawsuits. Take a look at the door
sticker in one and then add up the weight it is possible to load into one
of them...even without a roof rack...and you can see they are not designed
for the task we expect them to perform SAFELY.
If you are one of the (un)lucky individuals who is offered the opportunity
to ride to a fire in one of these units I suggest you do a quick load
calc. and compare it to the GVW. It is illegal to exceed that GVW and ANY
employer that expects you to ride in an overloaded vehicle is breaking the
law. Turn them in to their insurance co...or better yet the state patrol.
They should not expect to make money (lower their transportation budget)
by exposing you to additional and unnecessary risk.
Fireronin |
| 02/26 |
Another J.W.
You are right on the mark in your letter. Maybe the Office of General
Counsel would like to comment on this.
Lefteye |
| 02/26 |
Ab's:
Not sure if this has been posted on "They Said". May 22, 2003 at
Capitol Park, Sacramento. California Professional Firefighters will
remember those who have fallen. The members of Lassen Engine 11 will be
added with other Department Fallen Firefighters of 2002. Event details at:
www.memorial.cpf.org.
Niedermeyer |
| 02/26 |
Has the IOSWT meeting for this month already been held? Well, some of us
are wondering what the outcome of the discussions were in relation to Dr.
Sharkey's concern about his test that he developed for Work Capacity. I
agree with Dr. Sharkey, that his test was developed to be used for people
in "actual line digging" jobs. You know, the folks who dig line
every day... all day while at fires. I truly believe as do several others
that the Pack Test has been used as a weapon to demote, discriminate and
to harass folks... Sad but true. WCT administration procedures have been
reckless, every year, since it's been in use... No one should die trying
to get or keep a job, yet people have died every year since the Pack Test
has been used, not to mention all of the injuries that folks have suffered
while taking it. Look, the WCT Administrators guide isn't even complete
yet, it should be around March or so... funny, well not really... because
these tests have been being administered without an official review for
safety, by the American Medical Association, or a Cardiologists'
Association. I asked a while back about medical standards... no one ever
answered, after doing a detailed investigative search... there are NONE to
be found... Now I wish to take a little time here to thank those of you
who chose to personally attack me for asking questions about this health
and safety matter. The Medical Standards I asked about are just now in the
process of being developed and piloted this year. Here's another
question... I know that when grants are applied for, like for the research
and development of this physical test, there were goals listed in the
request for funds... was there a goal listed as "job task
analysis"? If so, where can the results of the analysis or the
references to meeting that particular goal be found? How much of the grant
funding was appropriated to this goal? Was a "job task analysis"
ever done? If so, does anyone know where to find them? Records are public,
if public monies were used for such things. For those who don't
understand... "job task analysis"... There really is such a
thing as this... it's especially handy when trying to validate a physical
test, legally. I'm referring to energy expenditures and strength needs
evaluations for individual tasks that people in certain positions are
required to perform. "arduous duty" used generically is not
acceptable!!! Here's another and final question... since we're all really
big on supervisor accountability for serious incidents and accidents...
without using the folks who died or were injured during or shortly after
taking this test as the scapegoat, since they're not here to defend
themselves let's take a look here... Where's the responsibility to be
placed for requiring people to take a test, either pre or post-employment,
when the test used is fairly new and has not been reviewed for cardiac or
functional safety, job task analysis' are not done, no medical standards
are in place (a generic AHA questionnaire is not a medical standard, it is
just a questionnaire, besides that, it's the AHA's Questionnaire and I am
sure they wouldn't want their copyrighted materials to be used in the
promotion of a potentially deadly activity) and last but not least, no
Administrators' guide? (I bet that the deceased folks' families would be
extremely interested in this information) Until all of these things are in
place... Maybe human resources, forest and district supervisor and test
administration folks should be held personally and professionally
responsible for the deaths and injuries people suffer while attempting the
Pack Test... Is the Pack Test a legally bona fide occupational test? If
not, maybe the test could be considered as non-compliant with the law. If
this could be the case... then maybe the definition of manslaughter could
possibly be applied, this could have a devastating affect on one's
career...or maybe Negligence, which could result in civil actions for
compensation, neither of these even compare with the price that a deceased
person or their family has payed. Also, I found it odd, that when folks
are injured during the test, how employers engage in illegal searching for
"old" medical records to try to combat and challenge OWCP
claims, resulting from the Pack Test. Take care everyone, Another J.W. |
| 02/25 |
Ab:
Since I authored the report that "BACKBURNFS" included in the
comments about last summer's vehicle fatalities, I feel obligated to offer
a few thoughts in response.
Once you start digging into the performance history of the 15 passenger
vans, it becomes apparent that something is seriously wrong! Did you know,
for example, that it is against FEDERAL law to sell these vehicles to
elementary and secondary school districts? Have you looked at the number
of college trips (for athletics, music, or field tours) that have ended in
tragedy as a result of using 15 passenger vans?
As a Federal employee, there are many more requirements to operate a
vehicle than are required by State laws; in the USFS, to operate a van
carrying more than 11 folks requires an addendum to the operator's
license. But...there is no special training that I've ever seen, including
anything that discusses the effects to the Center of Gravity by loading
all the seats, and using the roof racks. Yeah, the heavy engines and IHC
buggies are special, and require CDL licenses to operate.
Most of the vehicle accidents that killed firefighters in the 1990-1998
period that I reported were the result of single vehicle roll-overs and
collisions with others. These involved the larger engines that BACKBURNFS
described, and were often driven by volunteer firefighters who, because of
the lack of time and/or training $$, were less well trained than their
Federal partners.
But.... the 15 passenger van has a well-documented history (see the
National Hiway Traffic Safety Administration www.nhtsa.dot.gov)
of safety problems, and last summer's fatalities are just another page in
that deadly history.
I'm surely not recommending that we stop using crew buggies or heavy
engines operated by well trained, highly qualified operators. Nor am I
suggesting that pickups are the answer. I am suggesting that we always
limit our road miles whenever possible (one National IMT made 3 one-way
trips of over 1000 miles each in individual pickups in 2002), and that we
consider alternatives to driving from Oregon to Colorado, or Arizona to
Montana, just so that a crew (or IMT) can have their "own"
vehicles. Road miles DO equal exposure, regardless of vehicle size, and
this becomes especially critical when lots of folks are in a vehicle
proven to be unsafe, with a less-than highly qualified operator.
I hope that suing Ford about their 15 passenger van will at least raise
the awareness of its risks, and may in fact reduce vehicle fatalities,
especially in the wildland fire community!
Dick Mangan
Thanks for the additional information. It's important for assessing
risk. Ab. |
| 02/25 |
Ab and all:
Just read the Denver Post news article about Brandon and the van
roll-over.
I drove vans Ford, Dodge and Chevy for years on BD crews and Hotshot
crews, just like many of you. I guess I am lucky to be alive according to
the article.
Anyone who has ever driven a full size van knows that they don’t handle
like a Porsche, but neither do Broncos, Tahoes, Ram’s, pickup trucks,
engines, crew carriers or any other of the boxes on wheels we use.
Driving is one of the most hazardous activities that wildland firefighters
encounter. It is, I think, where we have the greatest exposure to getting
several folks killed or seriously injured at one time, as in last summer's
tragedy. And one that we do a lot over the season. We Drove over 14,000
miles X 3 rigs packing 20 people, last year.
I included the chart from the web address below. www.esb.act.gov.au/firebreak/wildland_fire_fatalities.html
|
|
25% Burnover
23% Aircraft Accident
21% Heart Attack
19% Vehicle
4% Snag
4% Miscellaneous |
Why do we always try to blame the people who build the things we ask
for when something bad happens? McDonald’s is making us fat. Guns are
killing people.
I would like to know what kind of drivers training any of the contract van
drivers get before they start hauling people across the country. Federal
Agency people have to take Defensive Driving training and refresher
classes every 2 years and be issued a Govt. Operators License for the
types of vehicles they are authorized to drive.
Additionally the drivers of heavy engines and Crew Carriers in Region 6
have to attend 36 hours of truck driver training, including 8 hours behind
the wheel with a professional driver, and have a Commercial Drivers
license. We don’t let just let anyone haul our crews around.
I am not saying the driver in the most recent accident wasn’t qualified,
and I know that person is suffering badly from all they've been through. I
just have some questions.
If we stop driving vans and pack crews into several pickups are they going
to be any safer? Do more vehicles = more exposure? Are agencies and
contractors going to get rid of all the vans they have? Are we going to
take seriously the responsibility we have to make sure we have the best
people with the best training behind the wheel?
I don’t have the answers, but I don’t think prosecuting the driver or
suing Ford is going to stop people from crashing rigs and hurting/killing
people.
BACKBURNFS |
| 02/25 |
The firejobs page
is updated as well as Series
462 and 455.
Ab.. |
| 02/25 |
Just catching up on They Said and couldn't resist a comment on Hickman's
post a few days ago where he planted a seed concerning the possibility of
NIFC going to the new Homeland Security agency......The folks at NIFC are
employed by all the resource agencies (FS, BLM, NPS, etc). Wouldn't it
make more sense to just take the plunge and move all federal firefighting
services from top to bottom, to an Emergency Incident Service under
Homeland Security? There could be the wildland division and the structure
division or maybe some other combo to include natural disaster management
(which FEMA depends on all of us to support anyway).
Training and equipping to deal with local non-fire incidents like
structure
fires and vehicle fires is looked down on by our resource agencies because
it is not our "mission", not allowed by the "manual".
But it seems to be
OK when we do it for national disasters and the agencies can put on the
white hat.
The recent Blue Ribbon report on aviation issues had a lot of findings and
recommendations that are just as applicable to the general wildland fire
business, including some serious organizational revamping. Nice that the
National leadership is taking the aviation fatalities so seriously. Too
bad they don't pay as much attention to the same broken pieces in the
larger fire service.
FirenWater |
| 02/25 |
Ab,
One of the articles on the NWCG Fire Leadership site reading list is a
15-page article written in 1997 by Diane Vaughn about lessons from the
spaceshuttle Challenger disaster. www.fire.blm.gov/textdocuments/VaughanWildfire.pdf
A couple of paragraphs mirror some of the recent discussions on TheySaid
about contract crews, structural firefighters and non-English speaking
personnel. Vaughan cites an earlier work in explaining how
"dominants" (i.e., hotshots, full-time agency folks, etc.) and
"tokens" (seasonal hires, contractors, volunteers, etc.) relate
to one another, and how that undermines accomplishing organizational goals
and can be harmful to safety on the fireground. It's worth a read.
She also makes a point about people pulling out their cameras in
escape/deployment situations.
"Remember Navon, at Mann Gulch, who stopped to take pictures— a
signal to others in the crew that all was well."
I recall one of the Thirtymile reports having a similar finding.
a vocal token,
vfd cap'n
|
| 02/25 |
Dear Abercrombie,
I don't know if you take e-mails from somebody like me who is not a
firefighter. If you do, I want to say thanks. I live in the Lake Arrowhead
area of southern Ca. We have lots of dead trees from bark beetles and a
high threat of wildfire. One official said 80% are dead. I believe that
from what I can see. I want to thank those who are making what they call
the shaded break. They're going to be thinning out dead trees and
underbrush.
My grandson Dick who is a city firefighter helped me make my property
safer. He emailed me a couple of articles this morning and I thought your
people should see them. I don't quite know what I should do with them, but
maybe you can make them work.
Firestorm
feared
Forest
Service prepares to thin
Thanks,
Grandma Sara
Hi Sara, thanks for writing in. I entered your links and shortened them
with words. There's some good and interesting information there. We
appreciate it. Good for you for being a responsible homeowner.
Firefighters from the San Bernardino area, anyone know if Arrowhead is as
bad as Tahoe? Ab. |
| 02/25 |
Workshop begins today in Mesa AZ on a long-range climate forecast for
the nation, followed by team breakouts that will plot how the fire danger
manifests in their regions. Hope to see some of you there.
www.usatoday.com
Jeff |
| 02/25 |
Here's the latest on the Van Rollover of last summer. Info from a
survivor. www.denverpost.com
Be safe out there. If you must use one, pack carefully. Minimize top
heaviness.
In reading down the list of some articles on the fire news page, here's
one about the Ukiah trial of the meth cookers that started the fire on
which the 2 tanker pilots were killed. Amazing the defense some people
will use. www.pressdemocrat.com
Todd |
| 02/25 |
first one of the season:
heads up, everyone. had our first fire of the season last week (thurs,
2/20)
Rapid
City Journal
-mr |
| 02/24 |
Ab,
Thought this would be of interest. This was the Cannon Fire that T-130
crashed on. I understand there will be a memorial dedication sometime in
June. I'll let you know when I get dates and times.
www.kolotv.com
Thanks,
NV'yote
Links to this and other stories can be found on the fire
news page under air tankers. Ab. |
| 02/24 |
Hi,
I was just perusing your website (which I use extensively) and noticed
on your page about Fire Programs (2
and 4 year fire science programs)
that Cal Poly is not listed as a Forestry/Fire Science program.
We've got an entire fire concentration here (I teach 6 classes on fire
management), which is imbedded within the forestry major. Would you
please consider placing us in the "Forestry/Fire Science"
category to
distinguish us from other programs in the state.
Keep up the great work,
Chris
Done. Ab. |
| 02/24 |
How many Barons and Sherpas are there?
Just wonderin'
Here is a
good place for some info and photos of air resources. Not sure if it's up
to date as far as numbers go. Ab. |
| 02/24 |
Here's a Question and Answer paper that might be of interest:
The Forest Service Preliminary Factual Report of Investigation
Airtanker N130HP – C130A Lockheed Hercules Accident, 2/11/03
www.airtanker.com/wwwboard/messages/3332.html
Jim |
| 02/24 |
Re 10 fire orders:
Believe it or not, I even use LCES and 10 fire orders in structure fire
fighting; a good part of both can be applied to any emergency response.
fire gimp |
| 02/24 |
Some good reading here even if it is presented in pdf.
www.wildfirelessons.net/Scratchline/fall2002.pdf
There's an article (page 2) on driving and wildland fires, and
articles on crews and line overhead (page 3), and fire use modules in 2002
(page 4).
Firescribe |
| 02/24 |
RE Jerseyboy's Post:
I think there is good reason to be concerned about the welfare of the
National Forests. One item in the 2003 Budget is an item for the
establishment of "Charter Forests", which are effectively
removed from Forest Service governance, and placed under the jurisdiction
of local "trust entities". There is little to NO information
published on the National FS website about this effort!!! Combine this
with outsourcing of natural resource employees, and my concern grows....
Some items regarding these "Charter Forest proposals":
- In Colorado, the board of trustees would consist solely of county
level personnel.
No new wilderness could be declared within that particular county, and
citizens cannot use the court system to protect their rights in these
public lands.
- Other proposals (e.g. the Central Idaho Ecosystem Trust) has the
goal ""to provide revenue, net of operating expenses, for
the beneficiaries each year, generated in a manner that recognizes
public values and is sustainable over the long term", and the
Forest Options group proposal, in which the emphasis would be on
forest resources producing “the greatest net value”. The emphasis
is to “discourage cross-subsidizing unprofitable activities with the
receipts from profitable ones”.
As I understand it, all US citizens, not just local trust entities, have
an interest in the management of our forests - and we have environmental
regulations that require we manage sustainability for all resources, not
just "profitable" ones.
This has the potential to affect fire, as well as other resource
areas....I would suggest that research on Charter Forests is a good idea -
and that you let your representative know if you don't like what you read
(websites available upon request).
Tree Hugger :). |
| 02/24 |
I don't know that you need to develop a leadership reading list at
"They Said." I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that there
is an extensive one that you could just link to at the very informative
NWCG Wildfire Leadership site:
www.fireleadership.gov
Specifically, the Professional Reading List is in the Leadership Toolbox
at:
www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/documents/pro_reading_list.pdf
This is an excellent list, and everyone that reads "They Said"
should spend time reading the materials at the Leadership site and the
books on the list.
BLM Bob
Thanks BLM Bob and BBTBDC. I was looking around for the bookmark I got
at the Division Chiefs Workshop that had the url on it. Great site. That's
what theysaid is about, alternatives to reinventing an excellent reading
list... and so much more at that site too. The link is now up on the links
page under training and education. Ab. |
| 02/24 |
Flameboy
Here's the link to the NIFC Fire Leadership website:
http://www.fireleadership.gov/.
Lots of good leadership stuff. Also, this
link to the professional toolbox:
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/toolbox.html
will give you enough
leadership reading material to keep you occupied for a year or so. Maybe
longer.
BBTBDC |
| 02/23 |
jargon/slang, here's a few more
A.H.T- advanced hiding technique, used when you want
to shade up and not be seen by the IC.
Type II bleachers- the big snow fences seen along
stretches of open highway, we were on a fire and all
the shots got to go play but all of us on the type II
crew got to sit and watch from the bleachers.
wyofire |
| 02/23 |
Hey, Ab:
I just got a couple more words to add to the jargon list.
Build-Up: the appearance of cumulus overtimus on a clear, sunny day.
Build-Down: when cumulus overtimus clouds that looked promising a few
hours ago suddenly evaporate.
Land Mine: The results of someone taking a dump in the woods or along the
fireline. Also known as a Cornback Rattlesnake.
-Kibby
I added them to the terms and nicks
list. Ab. |
| 02/23 |
I've been trying to bring myself up to speed on the "TheySaid"
conversations related to contract faller standards and certification. I
conducted a search and had some "hits" in the July archives
(specifically regarding S-212) training. I've been unable to find the
posts. Ab, can you help "guide me in"?
Once I'm able to read the archives, I'd be very interested in discussing
these issues. We are dealing exclusively with contract fallers on fires,
developing REAL training and certification standards for professional
timber fallers on wildland fire incidents, & developing a regional,
and eventually a national, interagency faller contract.
Thanks for your help.
NTF
NTF, I remember discussions of falling issues from time to time in the
past few years. Here's how to find something on an archive page. Once you
call up an archive, position your cursor at the top of the month, hit the
control (Cntrl) and F buttons simultaneously, type the search word or
number in the box and hit Enter. You can progress down the page and
hopefully find your target. Of course, you could just jump in and ask your
questions here. Ab. |
| 02/23 |
For those who do not know who Colonel Moore is, watch the movie We Were
Soldiers. He was commander of the 7th Cavalry (Custers former group too).
They were the first soldiers to use helicopters as rapid transports into
and out of combat. good movie - great book.
eric - PW |
| 02/23 |
woodsman20, re bodies on engines
All I can say is that there's some variation in regulations across agency.
In R4 I hear you say that BLM requires 2 people per Type 6 engine. When
BLM comes to R5, from out of the area, they provide 3 people. FS follows
the FSH 1509.17 which requires 3 people. Other agencies follow the minimal
standards of the PMS 310-1.
Woodsman, I don't mean this personally, but from what I have seen, when it
comes to contractors there's also some variation in tolerance of
performance mediocrity across regions. In my humble opinion, we need to
arrive at a uniform level of standards of performance. Those who don't cut
it should be sent packing.
John |
| 02/23 |
Jumper,
The Barons are wearing out. We have 6, but only 3 have under 6000
hours, the flying limit. One of these has only 60 hours left. Other
regions are down too. There's talk of rearranging where they're stationed.
The key will be to not use the ATs except where they're effective, on IA
and if available on EA. Large fire use is least bang for the buck.
Don't know about the Sherpa. Age is a factor there too.
With wings falling off the airtankers, we have to do something different.
Whatever we do in the future to modernize will cost more. The questions
are how much do we want to spend and for what? The cost of each new C-130J
is 43 million. BLM is talking about using SEATS, but there's a problem
with incompatible radio. MAFFs don't work in most fuel types we would need
them for. We're trying to get more larger helos, but that's expensive too.
It's likely we will have less and will have to do a better job with
managing and moving around what we have.
Jim |
| 02/23 |
Hey Ab, here are some for the list.
Thunder Hut or Blue room - Porta-pottie
Mystery Meat - the Green meat in your sack lunch that has sat out tooooooo
long.
"Im hearing Banjo music" what you tell your Eng. crew when the
folks that live in the house (the one Waaaaaaaay back out in the woods
your protecting) remind you of the cast of the movie "Dueling
Banjos"
Gator-aide Guard - USFS Cop at fire camp
thanks for all you do AB.
danfromord
I added them to the terms and nicks
list. Thanks. Ab. |
| 02/23 |
Hey Ab!
I suspect after flameboys's post you may be considering adding
"leadership" books to the book listings. If so, I'd like to
inform you of the plethora of other "self help" books available
and how much they've helped me. (Note: Please see my attached extensive
list) I've read all of them, or at least the good parts. In fact, I even
have a subscription to the "I Don't Know What's Wrong With Me"
book club of the month. I consider myself a darn good leader even if
others don't think so. I don't have any followers yet, but don't worry,
I'll get some. I know the rapid rate at which module leader positions are
being filled, so I'll get a job soon. In case you are wondering, wonder no
longer, I've also read "I'm OK, You're Ok", so I know I'm
"OK", it's just those crewmembers and all their personal issues
I'm worrying about. I've even purchased many of the books in the
"sensitivity" genre, just so's I can make sure I'm putting on
the right appearance, even though I don't really believe in any of that
stuff.
I can't wait to get some real honest to goodness people to follow me. I
have to admit though, I'm not sure why it's taking so long (not that I'm
sure where we'd go even if they did follow me). I've even gone back and
reread some parts those sensitivity books to see if I was paying enough
attention to people who talk to me.
I don't have any real life or leadership experience, but I might be. . .
Yer next supervisor. (ECC1)
HAW HAW seems I've felt the same myself from time to time. Hummm, now
where's that book list yer talking about? Ab. |
| 02/22 |
From Firescribe:
Here's the incident page for the Hawaiian Panau
Iki incident.
Fighting fire in volcano-land is different. |
| 02/22 |
Have been really interested in the Forestry Technician/ firefighter
discussions. As one who was quite proud the day I was promoted form
Forestry Aid to Forestry Technician while a primary firefighter, I didn't
really care about the title nor think about it much. Technician seem much
cooler than a mere aid though, sides it was about $0.35 an hour more.
Why are Forest Service, BLM, NPS, Fur and feathers firefighters in the
Forestry and Range Technician series? Those series are established in
part, to provide technical assistance in the protection and management of
forest and range resource (according to OPM). Protection from wildfire,
and use of fire as a tool, definitely qualifies as protection and
management, of forest and range resources. The series is then broken into
specialties, recreation, timber, silviculture, and fire. The OPM even
notes that this series is likely to have very narrow specialization.
The Firefighter series (081)could qualify, I suppose, for the purely fire
control and prevention functions, but protection and prevention of
wildland fire in protection and management of forest and range resources
is excluded (see the 462 and 455 series). This make sense to me, given
history. Doubt that it is any kind of conspiracy to keep people down, sort
of is just the way it has become and govmint has no real incentive to
change. Bet if one of you left your position cause you just could not live
with that durn Forestry Technician title, there would be someone to take
your place. One of the problems with wildland firefighting is that while
we are telling ourselves what selfless heroes we are (and mostly are)
truth is firefighting, while not always fun, is very satisfying, and well,
fun. We all wish it paid better (except CDF maybe, if had known then what
I know now, oh well water under bridge). But till recently has not been a
real labor problem. Times change however.
What happened to the Fire Control Series? Could be those fire control
aids, wanted to work year round, and get promoted to those lofty GS-4 and
5 forestry technician positions, and fire control aid time didn't count as
forestry technician specialized experience and vice versa, so they
combined it. Bet it also saved OPM time and the agency money, by providing
flexibility.
Well now a question. Folks comment that the 081 firefighter series has
some extra benefits that fed wildland folks don't get. I can find any info
on that. The only advantage I see is the extra OT one would get due to
FLSA rules dealing with round the clock shifts that structural FF often
do. Not sure how that would benefit the Gov as 5 day 40 hour weeks seem
more appropriate for wildland. Also apparently the Vandenburg folks get
Portal to Portal which is good. Believe P to P will come, as a safety
issue to create a disincentive to stay out and on the clock, which is
common. Nuff said.
olddog |
| 02/22 |
The best book on leadership or the example there of is the book "
We were soldiers once...and young" by Harold G. Moore. The striking
thing about the book is his commitment to the troops to lead from the
front and to be the first foot on the battlefield and the last to leave
the battlefield. We should all strive for that same commitment.
Captain 180 |
| 02/22 |
Anybody know details about the barons and the sherpa?
jumper |
| 02/22 |
Ab, letme try this...
The AT report at DivChiefs was that we could have somewhere between zero
and all but 11 ATs this year, as the 11 C130As and PB4Ys were permanently
grounded (probably). One stat Id not heard before was that if AT personnel
were groundpounders the annual rate of loss would be 267 people per year
on average. Unacceptable. Also heard we spent a quarter billion on
aviation last year, that's is not an effective use of $$. Anyway, FAA
(Sandia Labs) has been hired to look at the situation and make
suggestions. What they suggest may mean no ATs if the criteria they come
up with are extremely stringent and/or cost ineffective. There was a
prediction that most will be back up after inspection. P3s looking OK.
Even if all are back, we are still down to 33. We'll have to think
differently to be safe on fires this upcoming season.
Hell of a spot and no safe way around it except going the inspection
course...
We'll have ATs probably. How many? Don't know. How much will they cost?
Don't know.
TRB |
| 02/22 |
Don't Know Where to Start....
Something else for everyone to think about, if you haven't already.
Something other than Tankers or Tenders, if a fire truck should be red or
green, and which set of gear ya wear.
As I sit and reading the news and They Said, I set back and think now it
was a couple of years ago. We now have a Homeland Security Agency, which
has taken over part if not all of FEMA. Interagency IC Management Teams
were sent to New York City to assist with the World Trade Center and to
Washington to the Pentagon. NIFC assisting in coordination of personnel
and equipment assisting with looking for parts of Columbia. Personnel
assisting in Southern California, and parts of Nevada and Arizona catching
birds trying to contain an outbreak of Newcastle Disease. All of these
incidents are requiring a greater number of personnel and resources than
the local area can provide.
Much like the Old Structural Firefighter of say 25 years ago, today the
Wildland Firefighter maybe looking at a greater calling. I am not saying
the Wildland is 25 years behind the Structural counterpart. I was one of
those Old Sturctural Firefighters, all I did was fight fire. But look at
it today, now I'm faced with: Haz-Mat, WMD, EMS, High Angle Rescue,
Confined Space Rescue, Swift-Under-and Floodwater Rescue, not to mention
all the Standards we never thought about back then. Two in - Two out, no
more tailboards, 1 3/4 and 3 inch hose, Standards 1500, 1710, 1720, and
the rest running out my ears. And the wonderful age of computer reports
and access to resources greater than anything I could imagine..
The world has changed and we all will need to change also. As much as I
hate to say it, could it be possible that NIFC maybe added into the list
of Agency of Homeland Security. Where else can the government call for
commands staffing, a large number of personnel, equipment and all the
support to man a situation or incident? The incident may or maynot be an
emergency and the Wildland Firefighter may or maynot be just fighting
fire. The military used to be the resource, but we know where that will be
going.
Now think about the upcoming fire season. Think we will see any military
out this year? As I said, the world isn't the same as it use to be.
And I wear my yellow and green under my bunkers.
Hickman |
| 02/22 |
This came in last week from CD:
SAFETY ALERT
Boise, ID 02-18-2003
AVIATION RESOURCES SHORTFALL: Following the disastrous airtanker
accidents that occurred during the 2002 season, a Blue Ribbon Panel was
convened to assess the health and safety of the Federal wildland fire
aviation programs. The Departments of Interior and Agriculture are taking
the initiative to mitigate the sources of high risks in aircraft and
operations. However, these measures will have some short-term effects on
aircraft availability and place new limitations on certain operations that
are worthy of notice. Thus the subject of this alert is to make you aware
of the potential impacts on ground firefighting efforts.
AIRTANKERS: 11 large airtankers have been permanently grounded and
will not be replaced during the 2003 season. The remaining 33 tankers are
undergoing extensive inspection and repair to prevent the structural
problems that have occurred in the aging fleet. There is not as yet a good
indication when the fleet will be returned to service in its entirety. The
expectation is that tankers will be late in returning to service as they
complete the process one at a time. This means firefighters may have
difficulty acquiring retardant support until well into the summer season.
LEADPLANES: Approximately half of the Federal leadplane fleet may
be affected by a decision to retire USFS Barons due to aging airframes and
lifetime limits. Replacement aircraft are being sought and once again are
expected to be somewhat later in arriving than the normal start-up period.
Early season tactical air coordination may therefore by necessity be
provided through other resources such as ASM and ATGS platforms.
EMPHASIS ON INITIAL ATTACK: Within the Federal Agencies, in order
to make the most of limited resources, emphasis is being placed on initial
attack in order to minimize acreage lost. Limited availability of
leadplanes and airtankers dictates that they will be reserved for initial
attack and likely will not be assigned to large fire scenarios. The
National MAC Group will provide updates on the status and availability of
limited aerial resources as the season progresses.
RECOMMEND: FMO's, Incident Commanders and Ops Section Chiefs should
advise firefighters that aerial delivery of retardant may not be as
available to them as in the past and to adjust ground tactics accordingly.
Operational risk management procedures should take into account added
safety measures to account for the possibility of reduced aerial support. |
| 02/22 |
Kevin-
Apply. USFS, DOI, State agencies... whatever, you just need to apply.
There are seasonal jobs all over the country, so you might need to
relocate for the summer. Fire is a curious thing- either it becomes a true
passion in your life, or you hate it and move one to other careers. You've
just got to give it a shot. Good luck!
-blackliner |
| 02/22 |
From the video production company that produced the History Channel's
"Fire on the Mountain" show.
Dick Mangan
Tuesday the 25th of February @ 8:00pm NOVA is running two shows dealing
with terrorism; Dirty Bomb and Bioterror. Both shows were produced for
NOVA by Lone Wolf Pictures. Dirty Bomb will be premiering. Bioterror is a
re-airing of Lone Wolf Picture's Emmy winning examination of the threat of
biological weapons. |
| 02/22 |
Hey Ab
I was looking through your book section and saw nothing but fire books. In
this day and age with all the leadership classes we take I was wondering
why you don't have any leadership books on the book section. One book I
recommend is Shackeltons Way. Hopefully you can answer this question
because our jobs are more than just fire but also leadership.
Flameboy
We have a list of leadership books to add but we all have been
extremely busy with our paying jobs and it takes time to set new books up
on the books and reviews page. Giuliani's new book is excellent. There are
a number of others. We would appreciate any more additions. Readers, if
you've read a good one, send in the title and author and a brief review if
you like. We'll check them out.
We also need to update the links page since so many urls have changed on
the new FS web. To those of you who use the page daily and have commented,
thanks for the prod. We be a'hustlin'.
Did get the firejobs page
posted last night as well as updating Series
462 and 455.
Never a dull moment, especially after a week of meetings for most of us.
Ab. |
| 02/21 |
Just heard on CNN that Terry Barton got 6 years in jail for setting the
Hayman Fire.
Jeff G
Some articles about that on the Fire News
page. Ab. |
| 02/21 |
Ab,
The LP is sending a crew to Texas tomorrow (2-22-03) for shuttle recovery.
Our flight leaves at 0800 from Burbank and should arrive in Dallas around
1000. From my understanding, we will be doing either a 14 or 21 day
assignment, can't wait to help out any way we can.
When we get back, I will write back and share a progress report, the
bummer thing is, we were told not to bring any cameras.
An-R5er |
| 02/21 |
Following up on NorCal Tom's post:
To make donations for the memorial for Heather, Steve, and John you can
go to www.almanorfirefighters.com/donations.html.
Last year in October a group of us got together and ran a relay in the
Tahoe Marathon in Memory of Heather. Hopefully this will become a yearly
event and it will continue to grow. If anyone is interested they can
e-mail me at cara@robcara.us.
-Cara
Thanks Cara. Nice page and good effort. Is this the fund for the Engine
11 Memorial on the Lassen National Forest? Melissa was the person
collecting at the Division Chiefs Meeting. Anyone know how to reach her? |
| 02/21 |
Re Competitive Sourcing:
Living in D.C. during the winter, I've followed the contractors/federal
workers issue with a lot of interest. A few things that go on here that
might be of interest:
The first is that competitive outsourcing has been going on for a while in
many government agencies over a wide variety of jobs and professions. Some
of it has saved money, while other times, it has been a disaster. For
instance, the federal government decided about 4 years ago to outsource
their computer programming work, rather than hire IT workers. The
rationale given at the time was that workers and companies were plentiful
and there was no need to for gov't to pay the "huge" human
resources overhead. Then the dot-com bubble burst, tech companies in the
washington area folded, and now the government pays companies around $100
an hour for programming work. So, consolidated companies who were able to
survive the bust hire programmers at $45,000 a year and work them
1000-1500 hours on government contracts, and guess who is getting fleeced?
Second, there has been a large movement within the Republican Party for a
smaller federal role on all levels. (This isn't intended to be a shot a
republicans). Some of the fringe think tanks here in d.c. would like to
see the federal government disappear from many roles, and one of them
happens to be the ownership of land. One of the reasons that
competitive outsourcing is now getting a lot of discussion is that it
reduces the size of the federal government (even though it may increase
its expenditures). And the Forest Service, along with the DOI, are almost
natural targets because the ownership of land is so vast. This is not to
say that competitive outsourcing will lead directly to the wholesale
return of National Forests to the states, or to private ownership, but
there are plans being circulated for certain federal lands to be
"managed" by private companies. Again, this doesn't mean it will
happen, but be aware that this sort of sentiment does exist, and does
contribute to the debate.
How then does this affect contractors, most of whom are small entities?
Image a "slow" fire year, like '97, and string a few of them in
a row or 3 in five years. Many contractors will likely fold, and many
contractors will inevitably fold or merge anyway as the contracts awarded
get bigger and bigger. One line of argument i haven't seen talked about is
this: what happens when -- and again it will only be a matter of time --
extremely large companies who have the resources, both financial and
tangible, can " low bid" smaller contractors, effectively
creating a monopoly? (Think of what has happened in the aerospace
industry.) And though i realize fire is not yet the cash cow that public
investors crave, the budget continues to grow and the emergence of a
publicly traded fire-related company is also only a matter of time. Does
it matter now? No. Will it? Possibly.
Anyway, i realize all this may be pessimistic thinking, but hey, i live in
D.C., its hard not to think of these things-
JerseyBoy
Thanks for the stimulating thoughts. I'm always optimistic when
information and ideas flow. Ab. |
| 02/21 |
re: vfd cap'n
Ok, enough with the pathetic arguments. A TENDER is a TENDER because
thats
what it has been designated. There is a safety issue here, as well as a
clarity issue. There was/is confusion in communication over Tenders vs.
tankers. So, in the effort to CLARIFY and PREVENT confusion, and
subsequent
safety issues, the water carrying vehicle is designated a tender, ie. it
"tends" engines. A Tanker is an aircraft that carries and
disperses
retardant/foam/water. The lack of acceptance to "change" for the
benefit of
safety and less confusion is ridiculous. Its a WORD. Help take care of
each
other, and make sure we all go home to our families, by trying to create
less
confusion, less chance for injuries/death, and whatever other other issues
need to be straightened out by accepting a nationwide AGREEMENT. If its
that
big a deal, maybe we could change the tanker name to "flying
Keg", or water
pig with wings.
Another thing I read that upsets me is the designation of Neaderthals on
crew
buggies. I am a city structural fire fighter in a major urban area, as
well
as state wildland fire fighter. I have worked on engines on 5 alarm
structure
fires, and big brush fires. to think city guys are any better than any IHC
is also pathetic. I have been assigned to Type II hand crews and worked
way
harder than on any structure fire. I have complete respect for any hard
working hand crew, IHC, Type II or even DOC crews, who I actually think
work
harder and more professionally than some "pro" crews. Please,
again, we are
all here to do a job, professionally, and to save lifes, property and
resources. Dont change the goal to 'whos better than who', and 'we could
do
it better than you', and this word is better than that word.
Be safe
AZfirefighter
Ab also thinks this is enuf of tender vs tanker and will not post any
more of it. |
| 02/21 |
Hello
I would just like to say that your site is very nice, especially the photo
section layout (the photos are stunning). I was wondering if you might
need any help with anything (for free). The reason is, that I am getting
out of high school and I want to be a forest fire fighter, its just I have
not experience or training. I talked to the person at my local forest
service office and they said to "get your self out there". I
know a lot about computers, especially Linux (I am a geek).
Thank you.
Kevin Faulkner
Thanks for the great offer, Kevin. We're OK for now, except for needing
to do some more modifications on chat, but we heartily appreciate it.
We like paging through the photos, too. Like thumbing through a baseball
card collection, only better. Firefighters write in to ask to use them for
training and ppt presentations at meetings and students ask about using
them for assignments.
Hmmmm, I think your local FS office meant get yer'self out to the woods
on a fire crew. Firefighters, this enterprising young man is from
Scottsdale, AZ; got any suggestions for how he can "get out
there" or make steps toward a career?
Kevin, offering to help out is an excellent first step. Check the
post from the professor, just below, and the university and college page.
In addition to U. Idaho, Humboldt State U in norcal and Cal Poly San Louis
Obispo in socal also have new fire degrees. Pima Community College in
Tucson AZ has a fire science certificate program. Fire in summer, school
in winter? Ab.
|
| 02/21 |
University of Idaho, the Place to Learn about Fire!
Dear Wildland Fire.com
The College of Natural Resources (formerly the College of Forestry,
Wildlife and Range Sciences) at the University of Idaho has a long history
of educating natural resource management professional about fire, fire
ecology, fire management and how to use prescribed fire. www.cnr.uidaho.edu/cnr/
Up until recently we were the only university conducting hands-on
education in prescribed fire. Our prescribed burning laboratory began in
1978 and continues today.
We can submit very interesting pictures to your photo page of UI students
in action. One photo attached.
Want to know more, just write!!
Harold L. Osborne
Extension Professor of Forest Resources
Nice photo, thanks Harold. I put it on the Fire
16 photo page. I brought the info on the university
and colleges links page up to date. Readers, you can find this page by
looking on the links page under education. Ab. |
| 02/21 |
Mollysboy:
While I do agree with you that some Team members are having their lives
disrupted even more than usual, I think the opportunity to expand their
knowledge base with "all-risk" type incidents out weights the
negatives.
You're right, more and more of these all-risk events are coming forward.
With the world the way it is currently, we need to be prepared for
anything.
The more exposure these teams have, the better off they will be when
called
to manage, plan, etc. these non-fire incidents.
One solution may be to expand the team numbers with more alternates or
apprentices?
sfirelake |
| 02/21 |
I wonder how many folks are actually aware that NWCG adopted the
original
fire orders again in May 2002???? I had heard it was coming, but wasn't
aware that it was a done deal. I guess the next question is: When NWCG
does something, does it become agency policy automatically (for those
agencies involved in NWCG), or does each agency, then have to approve it
themselves?
10_fireorders
adopted
TC |
| 02/21 |
vfd cap'n-
What a jerk! As one of those "neanderthals", I am deeply
offended. I don't know what your problem is, but we work extremely hard
under the most arduous of situations. Our fires don't last three or four
hours- they last for weeks. That's just as bad as a wildland guy
describing a structure guy as some fat ass trying to pull his overfstuffed
bunker gear onto the running board of an engine. Stay on the pavement- we
don't need bad attitudes such as yours causing divisiveness within the
wildland community.
SoCalCaptn.-
I know you are just doing your best to get important safety info. out, but
the memo posts some inaccuracies about cafiene's effects as a diuretic. It
is true that caffeine is a diuretic- if an individual's heart rate is
below 55% of max (i.e. in staging, in camp, off-time). Once working at a
job like line construction, the heart rate raises, directing more blood to
the various muscle groups used in the work, and diverting it from the
digestive and urinary systems. This has the effect of putting the bulk of
their work on hold. High level endurance athletes commonly ingest caffeine
before work outs and competitions because of its benefits. Caffeine should
be avoided when rehydrating (post-shift), cameling-up (pre shift) and
during travel (especially when going from lower to higher elevations).
Just some excuses to keep instant coffee in my pack...
-blackliner |
| 02/21 |
Abs,
I had a few thoughts on some of the points presented by vfd cap'n. I have
worked in both wildand & structural departments during my 13 year
career and it seems that there are always arguments about terminology and
who does more or better training. I tend to agree that when you are
playing in someone else's sandbox, you follow those rules. However, NWCG
could find a way to become more accepting of NFPA and FEMA training
certifications. Although, I agree that someone with no wildland experience
should not be serving in positions like DIVS, structural experience and
training should certainly be applied to NWCG courses and positions.
Both FEMA, NFPA, & NWCG all offer numerous courses in fire service
leadership and incident command. However, none of these courses are
approved to take another's place. FEMA offers IS-195 which is almost the
exact equivalent of NWCG I-200, but cannot be substituted for it.
Obviously, some courses would not be acceptable for substitute, but many
others would easily cross over. Perhaps we could increase the numbers of
line-qualified personnel in many positions if policies for reciprocity or
substitution of similar courses could be developed. This could serve as
big incentive for experienced structural personnel who would otherwise be
turned off by having to sit through some very basic courses. Remember,
that just because a department is primarily structural, it doesn't mean
the department doesn't run interface or wildland fires and there may be a
large pool of interested personnel with a little incentive.
In my part of the country, a tanker is a ground-based water carrier.
However, when a large part of the nation is together on a type of
terminology, I think the best option s getting the rest of the country to
buy in, not change the whole thing. I'll call it a tanker here because
that's what I'm paid to do, but when I'm wearing a yellow shirt and green
pants, it's a tender all the way!
On_Fire |
| 02/21 |
LP,
Doesn't sound like we're on the same department.
Yes, it is a great forum. I don't think I'm persuading many people on the
tanker issue, but it's fun anyway. Maybe a few of the lurkers are the
powers-that-be with NWCG, and they'll get the idea that instead of just
taking a handful of volunteers as seasonal hires, they need to
aggressively
engage rural fire departments as a whole.
With a little help and depending upon apparatus/personnel, most
departments
could qualify with some form of strike team or task force. Neighboring
departments should be able to create a standing type 3 IMT. As more
agencies undertake prescribed fire work, there's an opportunity to bring
departments on board as a participant.
Then, when the big fire hits close to home, the local fire departments
will
be trained and qualified to play a meaningful role.
That's my hope, at least.
vfd cap'n
Unfortunately, I think that your posts that belabor terminology might
have the opposite effect than the one you desire. Ab. |
| 02/20 |
vfd cap'n
I have been reading the post that you have written for several days and I
have a few thoughts.
The one on 2/13 about the NWCG rules hey if you want to play on our
playground you have to play by our rules and the same goes for everyone
else, I would imagine if we came to your playground it would be the same
for us. I have worked hard to get the quals that I have and it is
frustrating to hear that some city guy thinks they should be a division
just because they have been on a city department for 20 years with no
wildland experience. All I have to say to you is if you want to fight
wildland fire and have no quals suck down your pride or your going to get
some one hurt.
The next thing was on 2/18. A person on my crew was injured in the the
line of duty, he blew his knee out. It took everything beyond the criminal
to get workmans comp to take action, he actually called his local
congressman to get help. Don't tell me that workmans comp will pay for
injuries and be there for you because it's a load of SH*@. Do not talk of
things you do not know of.
The next would be on 2/19 I was one of those "Neanderthals on crew
buggies" for eight years. You have no right in labeling someone like
that until you have done that. I am very proud of the work I did on the
Hotshot crews, we also did alot of work that other agencies took credit
for. You will never understand what it is to be a hotshot until you have
worked for a crew, however that probably won't ever happen because you
sound like you just like to sit there and complain.
And the last I won't even bother with because anyone one with half a brain
knows a tender is a tender meaning a big water truck.
Flameboy
In my experience with workman's comp, it seems the duty of the first
OWCP claim reviewer is to deny the claim. and then the claimant fights to
prove the validity of the claim. It can take years. Ab. |
| 02/20 |
I was browsing through your web site the other night and came across a
letter to the Governor of CA. The letter is full of bad information. As I
read the letter it didn't seem to serve any purpose other than to bash
CDF.
We are all brothers and sisters in the fire service, we may kid each other
but there is certainly no reason to attack. The letter was from the
lightning series that went through in 1999. The worst part is that the
fires the person is referring to are on Forest Service DPA. Regardless,
there were fires everywhere and inevitably a few got big. These are
decisions that have to be made when there are more fires than resources.
The person who wrote the letter did not even sign their name. I understand
the forum that you have here, but that letter serves no other purpose than
to bash another agency.
I enjoy your website but this kind of thing should not tolerated. Please
remove the letter.
Mike H
Fire Captain CDF
Mike, this letter has been on the site for years. It was put up as part
of a discussion on theysaid regarding perceptions at the time. As I recall
it was kind of a spoof. We thought there was a disclaimer with it as to
how a sender might be perceived, etc. Since this Ab is on the road, I
don't have a chance to review it now, but will do so and clarify it as
soon as I get home. |
| 02/20 |
Ab, here is a partial announcement for a 0462 series job on a military
base that is obviously A FIRE JOB and not part of natural resources.....
how many bombs provide a "natural ignition source". DoD has
wildland firefighters improperly classified just like USDA and USDI.
Two questions:
1) How come the Fed. govt. did away with the Wildland Fire Control Series?
When the Wildland Fire Control Series was absorbed, did any one think that
maybe Fire Protection was a better choice than Range Management, Forestry
Technician, or Biological Sciences??
There was a Wildland Fire Control Series around the time of the original
"Safety First" meetings. Any of you folks still around?
2) Can members of DoD bases join FWFSA?
Here's the job...
Announcement No: SCDW03143304
Opening Date: February 06, 2003
Closing Date: February 20, 2003
Position Title (Pay Plan-Series): FORESTRY TECHNICIAN (-0462)
Grade: 08
THIS IS A PERMANENT/FULL-TIME POSITION.
CPAC POINT OF CONTACT: CAROLYN COLON 912-767-4346
Salary: $34,936
Region: South Central
Organization: HQ 3D INF DIV (M) FT STEWART
DPW, ENVIR AND NATURAL RESOURCES DIV
FORESTRY BR, TIMBER MANAGEMENT SECTION
Duty Station: FT STEWART, LIBERTY, GA 31314
Duties: The primary purpose of this position is to direct and conduct fire
management operations for an assigned area of the Fort Stewart Military
Reservation. Prepares daily, weekly, and monthly prescribed burning
schedules, tower staffing, and burning plans for 45,000 acres of ranges
and impact areas on Fort Stewart in accordance with the overall Integrated
Natural Resources Management Plan and established priorities. Insures that
there are sufficient supplies, equipment and workforce to accomplish
tasks. Provides assignments, training and review of fire management work
of assigned personnel. Makes adjustments, varies sequence of operations,
and takes alternate courses of action as necessary to accommodate military
activities within the area, changes in priorities, time frames, and
special Contributes to the overall resource management plan by advising of
activities needed and in what areas such as detection, aerial burning,
fire suppression, coordination with the Georgia Forestry Commission and
military units. Prepares maps and reports. Coordinates fire management
operations in assigned area with the Timber Management Branch, Fish and
Wildlife Branch, Range Control and the Georgia Forestry Commission. Works
out mutual arrangements to coordinate activities so that common objectives
are met. Periodically directs and conducts aerial burning with a
helicopter and Delayed Aerial Ignition System on up to 5,000 acres daily
based upon weather and fuel conditions, following a written prescription
for each separate burn area. Monitors three automatic weather stations and
insures service contracts are implemented on time, insuring continuous
operation of the sites and an uninterrupted flow of data required by
managers in making numerous natural resources management decisions .
Determines fire detection and suppression assets required to protect
280,000 acres of military land from wildfires during all types of weather
conditions and makes recommendations to supervisor. Performs other duties
as assigned.
Sezno More |
| 02/20 |
2003 is already proving itself to be real interesting: IMT's
"chokin' chickens" in SoCal; an IMT on a fire in Hawaii; and
now, the Columbia Recovery project.....! And its only mid-February!
Has our good work on wildfires become a monster that threatens to overcome
our original mission?
I'm not downplaying the good work that is being done on all these
projects, or the need for the ICS organization that we are so expert at
bringing to the scene: rather, I'm looking at some of the longer term
implications of the non-wildfire assignments that seem to be turning up
with increasing regularity.
Look at our IMTs.....no, not just the ICs and OPS folks: how many Finance
and Logistic folks are in full-time fire positions? Do they have other
"real" jobs in our Agencies that don't allow them to be gone on
all these new missions? And do they (and the fire folks, too) really want
to be gone from home even more than our recent fire seasons have
demanded?? In my world, high school basketball is entering the playoff
stage, and Little League baseball is thinking about starting up: how many
more of your kids' games are you willing to miss................?
Some State agencies are not allowing their IMT members to go on non-fire
assignments: regular jobs at the home unit take priority, especially when
you have a small agency on a limited budget, and your most skilled
personnel are on the National and Area IMTs.
Don't know the answer to any/all my questions: just thought I'd throw the
thoughts out for discussion.
Mollysboy |
| 02/20 |
Everyone,
Heather DePaolo's dad, Tony, gave a great speech at the Division Chiefs
meeting today (yesterday now, Ab). For those who don't remember,
Heather, Steve Oustad and John Self died when their LNF Engine 11 rolled
over on the Stanza Fire near Orleans CA last summer. I wish our entire
community could have heard Tony's presentation. He gave all who didn't
know her a new sense of who his daughter was and reminds us how much we
continue to miss Heather, John and Steve. Money is still being gathered
for their memorial on the Lassen NF.
www.r5.fs.fed.us/lassen/engine11/fallenfirefighters.html
When accidents happen, we need to do better at informing families of the
death or injury of their loved ones - in spite of our own shock and pain.
We need to cut through the process of finding out who is the next of kin
and let them know from us or from a compassionate other as much as
we know. More of us need to know what is that process of getting contact
info and making that notification. We need to educate ourselves. God
knows, we want no more deaths. As Tony says, our profession is dangerous.
Our families deserve it.
THANK YOU, Tony.
NorCal Tom
PS I don't have the memorial donation information right handy but will
look it up soon as I get home... and put it up. |
| 02/20 |
Ab, I just want to say thanks to Tony DePaolo for the wonderful talk
today. Parts of it were hard to hear. Tony is Heather's dad. Heather and
Steve and John died last July in Northern CA in an engine accident.
I know this is sketchy but I don't have much time before I have to give up
this computer, just wanted to say a big thanks to you Tony. Heather
was pretty amazing and she was so lucky to have you as a father!
You are forever a part of our family.
Tahoe Terrie |
| 02/20 |
Woodsman 20
R4 pre season agreements require three person staffing, and have for many
years. Regardless of what the govmit can do, thats what they required of
us. I asked our district years ago why they staff a type 6 with two? Their
answer was simple. They operate mostly day cabs - three firefighters in
the front of a ford fill it right up, and no ones comfortable. Makes
sense.
I was at a PNWCG meeting, it was recommended that private engines in R6
also staff at the three person level on the light engines also. That will
be a requirement in the next solicitation. (so far)
eric PW |
| 02/20 |
SZ and others:
It is age discrimination! I'm 41 and have hit the same wall. With over 16
years fed time on FERS retirement- I do not need the twenty years/early
retirement. What I , you and everyone else should have is a fair and equal
chance for all jobs. I too pass the WCT each year, stay in shape and
perform the same jobs as an | |
