"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
May, 2003
Home of the Wildland FireFighter

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05/31 Ab, here's a good one. I had to write in. Got it in the mail from a CDF friend who is worried about being laid off. Don't know who wrote it. He's asking around. If anyone knows, please tell him or her THANKS! In the meantime, Laugh on! Cry on? GEW
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Subject: Memo to all CDF Employees
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:42:09 -0700

Memo To All CDF Employees

Dear CDF Employee:

As the result of a reduction of funds budgeted for departments,
we are forced to cut down on the number of personnel. Under this
plan, older employees will be asked to take early retirement, thus
permitting the retention of younger people who represent our future.

Therefore, a program to phase out older personnel by the end of the
current fiscal year, via retirement, will go into effect immediately.

This program will be known as SLAP (Sever Late-Aged Personnel).

Employees who are SLAPPED will be given the opportunity to look for
jobs outside the company. SLAPPED employees can request a review
of their employment records before actual retirement takes place.

This review phase of the program is called SCREW (Survey of
Capabilities of Retired Early Workers).

All employees who have been SLAPPED and SCREWED may file
an appeal with upper management.

This appeal is called SHAFT (Study by Higher Authority Following
Termination).

Under the terms of the new policy, an employee may be SLAPPED
once, SCREWED twice, but may be SHAFTED as many times as
the company deems appropriate.

If an employee follows the above procedure, he/she will be entitled
to get: HERPES (Half Earnings for Retired Personnel's Early
Severance) or CLAP (Combined Lump sum Assistance Payment).

As HERPES and CLAP are considered benefit plans, any
employee who has received HERPES or CLAP will no longer be
SLAPPED or SCREWED by the company.

Management wishes to assure the younger employees who remain
on board that the company will continue its policy of training
employees through our: Special High Intensity Training (SH*T).

We take pride in the amount of S*** our employees receive. We
have given our employees more S*** than any company in this
area. If any employee feels they do not receive enough S*** on
the job, see your immediate supervisor. Your supervisor is specially
trained to make sure you receive all the S*** you can stand.

And, once again, thanks for all your years of service with us.
05/31 Regarding CDFMike from Arroyo Grande's post:

Federal IHC, Regional Hotshot, Type 1, and Type 2 IA crews are all equipped with 6-8 radios in R-5.

The reason they have so many radios is twofold. The first purpose is to help alleviate the "C" in LCES. The second purpose is that these crews can be broken into small squads under a qualified FFT1 and still remain in communication with the crew boss or supt. Since a CDF Type 1 crew cannot be broken up into smaller squads, obviously you wouldn't need more radios.

I have to agree with your post that some crews are always on their "crew" tactical channel and not on the assigned incident frequencies, but not just hotshots. I have lots of experience with other agency resources, including my own, using their own local tactical channels (engines, helitack, etc.) and being impossible to get ahold of.

Lobotomy
05/31 Honorable Mouse

I am "self limited faller" (old school from the 70's) and for safety I use some flagging (plastic type) tape and a spotter, when dropping a burning tree. I tie one end around my neck (single layer will break before anything bad happens to you) and the other is given to my spotter who is back watching the top of the tree. A good tug will get your attention. Parachute cord, no matter where it is attached to the faller, can hang you up. The flagging will will break free, no matter which escape route you take or how it gets hung up.

Fyr Etr
05/31 Greetings All,
Can anyone suggest and/or recommend an urban interface video suitable for showing to the general public? I'm trying to increase awareness about fuels reductions in both the Home Ignition Zone and along access/egress routes such as private sub-division roads. Any info appreciated.

I'd like to throw in my two cents worth regarding the administration of contracts and what I suspect could be in our future. I operate under an EERA that is hosted by an Forest that shall remain nameless. The contracting office has decided that a contract EngB only has to have 230/231 & 290 to be qualified - this is their INTERPRETATION of 310-1. I have spent fair bit of time and money to take the training outlined in 310-1 and gotten my task books signed off over the last few seasons. I know that over the long haul I'm in a better position, but it sure is irritating to find out that the folks with three courses behind them are on the same roster as I am....As someone that has worked as a contract administrator, I don't envy them the job but why are the contractors being asked/forced to administer the government's contract?

As for the future and my suspicions, I feel that the current pool of fire suppression and support contractors are not your (read Federal Fire staff) enemy. I think that we, and by we I mean all of us that are involved in the current government/EERA arrangement, face a bigger danger. Unless we get our act together and start pulling for each other, we could all be out of the game. Eventually a Bechtel, Fluor Daniel, MDM, AT&T - Lockheed Martin ring any bells? - is going to see a multi-billion dollar opportunity that they can take over with relatively little expense. In the very near future there could well be a VERY large corporation running fires in our country.

Granted we could all apply for work with "THEM" but I, for one, like the flexibility of my current situation - which isn't to say it's easy. Most of us aren't looking for your jobs, we just want the opportunity to work WITH you on more projects. Unfortunately the latest Fuels Management solicitation was written in such a way that the little folks - that live and work on your district, know the area, the weather, etc. - aren't going to stand a chance of bidding.

If it's all going to Hell in a hand basket, isn't this the time to be creative and show initiative? Change is hard, there's no doubt about that - and you have to know that all your small business EERA's are constantly faced with it as well. Aren't they giving you the opportunity to act less like Big Government (BAD) and more like small government (GOOD) through the stewardship concept? If the idea behind the current administration is a return to more local control, let us help you look good, we can help you exceed your goals...Maybe a Federal Fuels Reduction Agreement which acts like project rate EERA?</soap box>

In NW MT it's raining today, snow pack is rapidly disappearing or gone, 10 hour fuels and bigger seem really dry based on sawing all week and burning two weekends ago.

Thanks folks!
Be safe,
MTMOG
05/31 Glad to see the parade issue was a joke, that was my first impression but many seemed to be taking it seriously. Just to play devils advocate for the WCT, how many firefighters died related to physical fitness issues on the line under the step test, compared to the number who have died taking the test and how many have died on the line since the pack test has been the standard? I'm in favor of the pack test and wished we used it at my department, but there are some areas I feel that the administration of the test has some ways to go before I'll consider the agencies as meeting their responsibilities to their employees / potential employees.

These discussions of the pack test tend to turn into childish shouting matches but there are some areas that I think the agencies are harming their employees and the abilities of the agency with the application of the test particularly in prevention. Many go into prevention once they can no longer perform at the level of primary fire positions due to physical disability. Many can perform all the tasks which go along with the duties of a wet patrol, but can no longer meet the arduous level of the pack test. I don't know what the answer should be to those people, but it seems harsh to boot them out of a job they are capable of providing good service for just because they can no longer do the job of a hotshot, engine or helicopter crew. Most wet patrols I've been around rarely act as suppression personnel on anything larger than a camp fire but provide many useful less strenuous fire line tasks, not dragging hose pack up a hill. I've also known older helitackers(?) (what's the plural for helitack) that are never used on the line but have great experience working in the helibase who have been forced out because they physically can't pass the test. The experience most of these people provide due to their experience is invaluable, it is a shame to lose that due to the inflexible application of a test of abilities that doesn't necessarily apply to their specific job.

Sure if they are expected to work on the line on occasion, or in other ways need to meet that level they should pass the test, but it should not be based solely on the fact their truck happens to meet the terms of an engine or they are assigned to a helicopter but the crew has no intention of using them on the line.

Again not suggesting that the test has to go, just that there is some need to tweak its application to eliminate as much of the potential harm or loss of qualified people who can not pass the test but are fully capable of doing the job they actually do. I realize this is a small number of individuals but most deserve the attempt, not all are lazy slobs. Unlike structure departments that tend to have jobs that those physically unable to perform suppression work can do and still provide a useful service, with the widespread adoption of the pack test most wildland agencies don't seem to have many of these positions left, dispatch is about the only thing left and that is a fate worse than death for most line personnel and tends to irritate those dispatchers who chose to enter that position for making it a dumping ground for disabled firefighters. I don't have the answers but if you don't take care of your firefighters as they get older it becomes harder to retain them when they are younger. The Forest Service used to be known to provide for its own. In the relatively short span I worked for the agency I saw it change from one that looked for solutions to its employees problems to an inflexible one that dumped them at the first sign of trouble. I liked the old one better.

Two bits,

I agree with you that the Task Book system needs some work, it is a great idea but is too reliant on subjective views, I worked with one excellent firefighter who had 20 years in fire with the USFS, had been a crew boss on a hotshot crew, and a captain on an engine, his DIVS was shot down after several assignments, the last being over a week from IA to mop up, yet his relief was less experienced and was passed as DIVS on his first assignment which was one shift of mop up on that same fire. Personally I've had my taskbooks held over my head in an attempt to influence my actions unrelated to the position and others were signed off as soon as I returned from class (before I know better) I've also seen a fair amount of favoritism as far as handing out training assignments. I think the Task book system is a great idea, far better than the take the class you are one most of the fire service uses but it clearly needs some tweaking to avoid passing people before they are ready or as a management tool to control people.

Fedfire
05/31 Yacatac

What gives you the right to come down on some folks who choose the extra
set of eyes? I worked a multiple seasons as a sawyer on a hotshot crew and
yes I do agree that there needs to be only one person at the stump but I
would like that extra set of eyes in case I need them. I was also certified by
D Dent and like some of the stuff he taught, however the more people looking
out for you the better.

Flameboy
05/31 Two Bits,

In Region 5 the forests have entire committees that have to approve each
task book. People here are definitely qualified before the task books are
signed off.

Maybe R6 needs a class action lawsuit or 2 to get them on the right road.
I wouldn't recommend it as the pain free route but if they can't be
professional about business, it opens the door.

Remember not all Regions dwell in the same pile of doo.

FirenWater
05/31 JerseyBoy,

I’m not sure why you think jumpers should cross-train as rappellers, when there are rappel units that do that job already. I don’t know why they can’t co-exist, and why you apparently want the rappellers to lose their jobs to jumpers.

I’ve never been a rappeller, but I think it’s a bad idea to try to mix the two unless there is a commitment to ensure enough practice; since I don’t think you can always get enough practice jumps as it is, I doubt there would be enough time or money to get enough practice time on jumping and rappelling.

You claim that you don’t think that cross-training would compromise safety. In my last post, as in this one, I’m trying to tell you why I think it would do just that. Not trying to rip you here, but what’s your basis for your statement? As someone who’s been there, I do think you would compromise safety by cross-training. You say that jumping can’t be that difficult because rookie training only lasts 6 weeks. Hey, if you become a jumper, you can go ahead and think that way, but you’ll be asking for trouble.

Anyone who has been a jumper can tell you that you learn a lot after rookie training, that you learn with each jump. Some jumps are relatively easy, some are very tough. You shouldn’t take any of them for granted. Some look easy from up high, or even if you do a low pass, but you still may not see all the hazards until it’s too late. I’m basing my comments on my experience, not on what I heard somewhere. Having ended my jump career with an injury, I sure wish I had mastered the skills better, and I know the hard way how tough some jumps can be.

Again, why get rid of rappellers when there is no need to? Have both, use them both. Certainly you won’t ‘improve’ jumping by taking away time to work on jump skills.

As for jumping not being perfect, of course it isn’t; just ask any jumper if you want confirmation. But neither using jumpers as rappellers not privatizing it will improve things.

Sunil
05/30 We've added many new links to the Wildfire Education Links Page. Many thanks to those who took the time to dig them out and send them in. Educators are already appreciating it. We put a permanent link to this page on the Links page under education. Scroll down to the last slot. If the occasion arises, let those in your communities know about this resource.

We've updated the Jobs Page, wildland firefighter Series 462 and Series 455.

Ab.
05/30 After reading the post on parades causing deaths in the fire service, I felt I needed to add my nickels worth. First off, what caused this ff to have a heart attack? I seriously doubt the "stress " of driving in a parade caused this. You go like maybe 5 mph if your lucky for an hour or two, right?

According to a recent article on firehouse, heart attacks are the leading cause of ff deaths. Why is that? Stress form the job, sure. Lifestyle? sure. physical fitness? sure. Parades, hmmm, probably not. My point is we as a brotherhood need to take better care of our selves, period. I know of no firefighter that considers parades stressful or hazardous to their health. Parades have been part of the fire service for hundreds of years. To try to banish parades because its dangerous is ridiculous. You talk to any youngster in America and ask them what they remember about parades in their towns, cities, villages, whatever, and I bet 95 % would say the firetrucks. The parades are a source of pride for the ff's and community as a whole. Its a chance for them to get out and show their support for each other. If we follow the train of thought about banishing parades, maybe we should do the same for our returning war heroes and veterans. It would certainly be stressful for them too.....I don't think so. I wouldn't want to insult them like that. And what about when there is a LODD? The funeral procession is a parade, in a way. Trucks driving down the road in a procession, with the public out on the sidewalks. Should we not do those too? My whole point with this rambling again is we, as a family- shots, jumpers, rappellers, volunteers, career, etc, etc, etc, need to take better care of ourselves.

Thanks-
FMRRSIXER
05/30 Please post the information contained in the message below. I'm sure the Sawtooth Hotshots would like to see this.

We helped CNN Presents last summer in their efforts to film and interview the Hot Shots on the fireline along with other activities. It should be an interesting broadcast...tune in if you're interested.

Lasagna...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings,

A quick announcement. CNN Presents will finally premiere the television documentary we produced last summer with the Sawtooth Hot Shots and the Southwest Incident Management Teams that tackled the Biscuit Fire in Oregon.

The program was pre-empted by the ramp up to events in Iraq and the
extensive war coverage the network produced.

Here are the details on the airdates for the program:
CNN Presents: Summer of Fire
June 8
8 pm ET, 5 pm ET
11 pm ET, 8 pm ET
And later that night at 2:00 a.m. ET, 11:00 pm PT
The show will repeat the following Saturday, June 14th.

I'm currently in Kuwait, about to drive to Baghdad this weekend. I'm
reachable via email over the next few days, if you have questions about the
show.

Best,
Craig Duff
Producer (freelance), CNN Presents

Here's a quick description of the show:

 · Summer of Fire: The summer of 2002 brought one of the most intense fire seasons in 50 years. Drought and overgrown forests led to infernos that raged hot and wild. Three states saw their biggest fires in a century. Tackling these blazes were thousands of firefighters and personnel, confronting the flames like an enemy on the battlefield. CNN's Bruce Burkhardt brings the audience to that battle, with an inside view from the fire line on the summer's biggest blaze. And our crew shadows a twenty-person Hot Shot squad for a two-week shift on some of the most challenging flames of a Summer of Fire.
05/30 Re Snake River Sparky's comments:

Just for some general info, this year Oregon is
charging each contract crew $60 a day per crew while
on fire assignments. This money will be given to the
state to help monitor training and qualifications of
contract crews. The state (if they do it right) will
be going threw records and sitting in on classes to
assure that everything is taught to the set standards
and that task books and red cards aren't pencil
whipped. But the one question I want to throw out
there is when are we going to do a better job of
reviewing taskbooks on the Federal side? I've seen a
lot of people getting signed off that have very little
experience. Some areas in south central Oregon have
done a very poor job of getting their people out on
fires but sign things off as kind of a way to keep
people happy. I personally have seen two crew bosses
signed off that never had more than a ten person squad
under them and that was just a mop-up show. So for me
at times it's hard to understand why we as fed agency
aren't doing a better job of policing.

well thats my
two bits
05/30 Hi all,

I am red carded for the first time as an EMT-B for this fire season. For
all you veteran EMTs out there what are the most common injurys I will be
dealing with and what type of equipment will I be issued? Any good tips you
can offer would be great. thanks

Stay Safe,
MNFF/EMT
05/30 To all you sawyers,

As a class c faller & former sawyer on a hotshot crew I am appalled that all of you sawyers are looking for ways to depend on another person to keep you alive while cutting timber. I am a firm believer in D. Doug Dent's theory on keeping oneself alive by looking for aerial hazards yourself.

No matter which method of transmitting danger is used, by the time the "swamper" reacts, the faller digests the information and reacts, IT IS TOO LATE....The faller needs to be looking UP.. towards the danger so he/she can react!

Now using earpieces, air horns, etc to warn of changing fire conditions, incoming retardant / water, etc is a fine idea....

On Aerial Delivery of Firefighters,

As a current air attack, I am a firm believer in both the smokejumper and rappel programs. Both are fine tools in a well rounded toolbox.

Yactac
05/30 Re: Lobotomy's post on CDF Crew radios,

I believe that ALL have a minimum of two regular handie-talkies. The swamper and Captain are always going to have one each, and some Crews will have more. The eight that Lobotomy mentions are on Shot crews seems almost excessive and might help explain why we are so often unable to raise neighboring Shot Crews on the tac net......

CDFMike from Arroyo Grande
05/30 FRS radios, it is the FCC that has ruled that the
FAMILY service radios are to be used by the general
public. Private businesses and government are not
authorized to use the frequencies. The USDA and
Interior are restating policies that are already in
place.

The only radio frequencies that are to be used on an
incident are those that are listed in the Incident
Action Plan or authorized by the local fire dispatch
if an IAP is not in place.

Official stuff said, there is the problem of the
command and tactical frequencies getting clogged with
use. This can be caused by a number of things; not
enough tactical frequencies, folks that talk too much,
too many radios on the line. Everyone's need to pass
info is important and they need to relay it now.

A major consideration is that there are not that many
frequencies that are dedicated to fire that can be
used nationwide. The NIFC Radio Cache is always
running out of frequencies and has to go to Washington
DC to temporarily borrow frequencies allocated to
various government agencies. In areas with a lot of
fire teams operating this is a monumental task, it is
one of those behind-the-scene jobs that really goes
unnoticed.

The frequency plans we use today were really
established before King radios came on the scene. The
radios had fixed frequencies that could only be
changed by replacing crystals. There were not that
many radios on fires, radios brought in with people
from thier home units were not able to operate on the
incidents frequencies. Quite a different situation
than what we have today with programmable radios.

A few years ago there was a proposal to get shot crews
some frequencies to use. The problem was the freqs
they proposed were only authorized for the general
public and a some businesses that had a license issued
in the past, the radio type authorized for this use
also needs to meet certain requirements that the King
does not meet (a non-removable antenna and very low
power). Using these in the woods would be no problem,
get near town and have a fire start interfering with
Walmart or Taco Bell and I bet the fire would have to
move off, we would really see who has more pull in DC.

Getting a new frequency usable nationwide is near
impossible. Most are assigned to be used within a 60
mile radius of the licensee's residence. So a units
home frequencies are no good away from home, be it
contractor, FS, BLM.

There have been a few incidents on fire of units not
operating on assigned frequencies that could have had
serious consequences. There has been several memos
from high up saying that using unauthorized
frequencies will result in disciplinary action, but
have yet to hear of anyone getting into trouble.

I know there is a need for more frequencies to keep
the info flowing on the line, and the FRS radios are
small and handy to use and do serve a purpose. But I
will get up during briefing and state the official
line of only authorized freqs to be used, as that is
what I am required to do. So keep your FRS radios
hidden and don't ask me to program freqs that are not
in the comm plan into your radio.

COMT
05/30 it seems i ruffled some of the jump wings.

in my original post i tried to make it clear that i
wasn't opposed to the jump program, but that there
might be some better, or more efficient ways of doing
things.

i haven't been in fire that long, so i can't speak for
all the debates that came before me. but from the
people i have talked to in the fire world, folks with
many years of experience, seemed to echo one another's
sentiments - some of these people were former jumpers,
and some are current jumpers.

many believed that intensive rappel programs were
going to be the wave of the future - like the arroyo
grande helishot crew. i brought up the russian sj
article as a point of reference - the photos from that
piece showed 10 or so jumpers in a helo flying in to a
fire. seems as if the helishot program could be an
alternative to jumpers (better? the same? worse? in
different situations) i also heard comments that the
rappel program was being underutilized because of the
faith in the jumpers. this is good and bad in my
opinion: good that jumpers are so valuable that they
inspire such faith, bad that a better way may be
overlooked.

like i said in my first post - the rappel program is
still very much in its infancy, and running out of
flight time before rappellers, etc. is a problem that
needs to be solved.

and "fraternity", "tradition" and "resistance to
change" these are all words and phrases that have been
repeated to me many times by many people in the fire
community.

personally, i think the jump program is excellent (5
of my former crewmates are jumpers now), but i don't
think its perfect.

i don't think that adding rappel duties to sj's would
necessarily compromise safety. i realize that jumping
out of a perfectly good plane and parachuting into the
woods requires different skills than sliding down a
rope. but this isn't rocket science - it only takes 6
weeks to complete rookie training for smokejumpers,
and not every second of that is spent learning how to
jump. why is the russian program able to do both?

is requiring u.s. sj's to be rappel qualified too
much? i can't say - i've been neither, but i don't
think i'm the first one to have thought this.

finally, my comment about public perception: sure, the
general public is appreciative of all the folks:
engines, ground-pounders and the like. how many times
have you told people that you're a wildland
firefighter only to be asked: "are you a smokejumper?"
or read an article about a fire that says that "the
crews working it include 8 smokejumpers." the public
thinks of wildfire and they think of smokejumpers -
its an image that is both natural (for the risks that
sj's take, and the quality of the job they do) and
contrived (from a misunderstanding of how fires are
fought). i don't mind explaining what i do - after
all we are all digging in the woods after arriving,
whether its by plane, helo, engine, or boots.

the contract jumpers comment was in response to a
conversation had on a long, long, mop-up shift last
summer. we were discussing outsourcing and someone
asked if cost were the only prohibiting factor to
having a contract jump force. it seems if all other
jobs were open to contracting, why wouldn't jumping?

thanks to all those for replying - i am still
relatively new to the fire game - and i like to ask
questions. this board is a great place to get answers.

JerseyBoy
05/30 Guess it's time to "fess up": my latest post about Parades Killing Firefighters was a feeble, and all too subtle, attempt to poke those folks so outspoken in their opposition to the Work Capacity Test (WCT).

Yeah, a 49 year old firefighter did die on Memorial Day while driving a fire truck in a parade; and yeah, others have died under similar circumstances, including polishing the engines in preparation for a parade.

I was not making jest of their deaths, but rather trying to raise the point (mostly unsuccessfully) that deaths from Heart Attacks can occur when we least expect them, but that we shouldn't condemn/eliminate the "precipitating event", be it a parade, the WCT, or walking up the steps to church on a Sunday morning.

Rather, we should recognize that ours is, by its very nature, a hazardous occupation/avocation. While no death in wildland fire operations is acceptable, the extremely low % of deaths from the WCT versus the numbers of firefighters talking it every year shouldn't keep us from expecting, and measuring, a level of performance higher than one would get from "Joe SixPack, the Couch Potato": Joe's Heart Attack on the fireline could put many of the rest of us at risk trying to effect a rescue.

So, I apologize for being so abstract/obtuse/vague.......... but not for believing that the WCT has moved us miles ahead of where we were in Firefighter Fitness just a few years ago.

Aberdeen
5/29 Emmett,

It's not upper management who says that the use of FRS radios is not available... it's the FCC. The agencies are just following direction from the FCC.

Unless...um.. you can consider a crew a "family" ... you might be pushing the subject. I admit, we used to use them around the station but stopped when we were told they were against reg's.

I see CDF handcrews using them all the time and I don't report them. Maybe CDF could provide an additional HT for the swamper and maybe someone else?

Most Fed type crews have somewhere around eight radios assigned..... Most CDF crews have one or two.

Agencies are just applying the rules and reg's.

Lobotomy
5/29 1800 Update on the Del Puerto Fire in SCU that started at 1130 today, 15 miles west of Patterson. It got up and ran right off the bat, like from 35 to 80 acres in 20 minutes.

It's now 500 acres, is 5 to 8% contained and is burning in grass and light brush, some timber.
Currently 10 residences are threatened.
Today's fire behavior: Rapid rates of spread, spotting, gusty winds.
Temp: 90 degrees.
118 personnel from CDF, state park, local fire depts.

Be Safe
CDF Sam

SCU stands for Santa Clara Unit, CDF. Ab.
5/29 Al,
CDF prohibits the use the FRS radios. However, I've seen some Crew Captains using the little radios for comms between captain and swamper. I was briefly assigned to a station that has a Model 5 and we used FRS as an intercom between cab and crew seating. Against the rules but what are ya gonna do ;)

I don't buy upper management's argument that FRS radios could cause a problem on the line, I can tell the difference between my King HT and a little Cobra HT. But I'm only an engine Captain with many years experience.

I guess you could say I have issues with this little item.

Hope that helps,
Emmett
5/29 Sad announcement:

We in York, Maine are mourning the death of David N. Hilton from a heart attack on Saturday. He died young, was only 42, was an easygoing guy, a good friend, and firefighter you could count on.

He also wrote one of the books on your books page: From York to the Allagash: Forest Fire Lookouts of Maine.

We're all going to miss him.
Rich

Condolences. Ab.
5/29 From Firescribe:

Brush fire burning in 500 acres in Stanislaus County

Oregon Firefighters battle first wildfire of '03
5/29 About the smoke jumper v rappeller debate, what Sign Me BBSMJP is saying is kinda off.

I am a rappeller and we have never run out of flight time before running out of rappellers. As far as being more expensive, who knows? there is an argument on both sides one helicopter or parachutes and injuries. I will say that rappellers can fill most of the jobs that Sign Me BBSMJP listed, but not all of them. Jumpers do have their place and are valuable in most places. I also have to agree that a Fraternity is good, it carves your place in this world. The jumpers jump the small fires as well as rappellers but during a large fire, the rapellers rappel potential helispots and sections that are hard to get to.

I reckon I'll stir the pot a little. We also have a small injury record as well as a very safe record.
Flameboy
5/29 Capt Emmitt,

I could have been clearer. I was thinking of Big Blue's post below, where he or she says, "The Department's of Agriculture and Interior have prohibited the use of Family Radio Service (FRS) radios". and gave the link
www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/Hotsheet/Hotsheet.html

I left out the "frequencies" and "models" part of my post. Do CDF's specs match those of the feds? If a faller works on a strictly CDF fire, could they use what The Hon Mouse suggests?

Al
5/29 Jersey Boy,

I’ll tell you why I don’t think jumpers should cross_train as rappellers. I think jumping is a demanding skill, and it’s hard enough to get enough practice jumps to stay current and sharp. When I was with the BLM we tried to jump every two weeks, and I think people would benefit from jumping more often than that. To try to work on another skill, rappelling, would serve neither well. Air time is expensive, and I doubt that there would be sufficient attention paid to either skill. Limited budgets would force compromises, and safety would suffer.

I do think that jumpers would object to becoming rappellers, and I don’t see why they should have to. I think the two programs can co-exist. As a former jumper I would rather have a canopy over me than a helicopter; no offense to rappellers.

I may get into trouble here, because I don’t have numbers handy, but my memory is that airtime for our jumpships was less expensive than for helicopters. If I’m wrong I’m confident that someone will correct me. Are jumpers too expensive for the service they provide? I don’t think so, not if you value initial attack and firefighters that can work without support once on a fire.

Is it inefficient to load jumpers into a ship and have us patrol an area that has been hit hard by lightning? I don’t think so. I remember a very long day that started in Ely, Nevada, in July 1996. We got on the Twin Otter early that morning, and in about an hour found a small fire and dropped two on it, along with their gear; we ended up returning to drop them a saw a little later. Stopped in Mesquite and later on in St. George, UT, for gas, cargo, and picked up some USFS jumpers there. By that time we'd jumped two more on another fire, and found a couple more fires. When I went out the door around 6 pm, we had dropped on three different fires, and we caught all of them while they were small. The one we didn’t drop was too big for us, and it was way too windy to jump.

I think that one day showed the benefits of the jump program: We were able to patrol a pretty vast area and respond quickly to smokes that had been spotted, as well as pick up fires that had not yet been reported; we got people on the fires quickly; we had sufficient supplies for three days on each fire, and had we dropped the saw initially on the first fire, we wouldn’t have had to return to it; we were able to pick up pre-positioned cargo in St. George, as well as smokejumpers from a different agency (Redmond folks, I think); we kept all our fires small.

I haven’t read the Outside article (couldn’t find it online) but I understand the writer said that sometimes jumpers can see a freeway from their fire. That’s certainly the case at Storm King, but let’s remember how strapped that district was for resources at the time; also, most of the time jumpers can get to a fire faster than anyone else, and it just may make sense to use them even if there is a road nearby.

Will there ever be contract smokejumpers? I hope not. I’m out of jumping now, and have no axe to grind here, but I doubt a contractor who has to pay attention to the bottom line is going to focus on practice jumps the way the government will (and as I’ve said above, they could spend more time on it). Privatization is not a cure-all, no matter what this Administration thinks.

Now a question for you: Based on what you’ve seen and heard, what changes do you advocate for smokejumping?

Sunil
5/29 "We're Toast" - I haven't read it, but don't blame smokejumpers for carrying out 90 years of firefighting policy.

Jersey Boy (5/28) - In my opinion it sounds like you need to talk to more people to get more info on the smokejumper and rappel program. I'll try to help.

In your letter you write:
"…rappel… seems that this is a much more efficient way of transporting firefighters…"
A recent gov't study showed that during busy times rappel helicopters run out of flight time before they run out of rappellers. Rappel ships usually can carry 2-6 rappellers. On the contrary, they run out of smokejumpers before they run out of flight time. To make each program more efficient, the rappel base needs another helicopter (expensive), while the smj base needs more smj's (cheap).

"…wilderness areas…"
Of my 100+ fire jumps only a few were 2/4 person small inaccessible IA wilderness fires, while of ½ of my fire jumps have been whole plane loads (8-16 smjs) to escaping/emerging fires, non-wilderness, urban interface type fires.

"…share its territory…"
In most regions, especially 4, 5, 6 smj and rappel have been used for years. R1 has a new rappel base on the Gallatin. The Panhandle or Kootenai would be a better place, but that's OK. In my opinion both programs are a compliment.

"…as with Russian smokjumpers, why US jumpers weren't rappers as well."
In the past 15 years, many smjs from WYS, MSO, RDD, and NCSB have been crossed trained in rappel ops. It has been tried, but it must not be very efficient or they would still be doing it. During the past few years, Russia and the US have been using a smj exchange program to integrate into each other's program for a whole season with many ideas exchanged.

"…vehemently oppose external change…"
Where there is a need, smj have changed. Smjs are very versatile. Ie. 20 person crew. Fire Use. Fire overhead - STLC, DIVS, FOBS, OPSC, ATGS, MCAD, EMTB etc. Prescribed burning all over the US during the fall, winter, and spring. Local, regional and national fire training. Fire Research. Technology and Development. Smj's learned and use arbor type climbing techniques to climb trees to help APHIS with the Longhorn Beetle problems in Chicago and New York.

"…Fraternity…"
A brotherhood… I see no problem with being a tight knit group.
IHC's, rappel, engine, district, all types of crews are proud of what they do and care about each other. I wouldn't want anyone to change.

"…public perception…"
I find that the public loves ALL ground level FF's, not just smj's.

"…tax payer…" more than a few rappel bases average less than 3 rappel fires per year. All that expensive training and risk for not much fire use. On the other hand it is not unusual for a plane load of smj's to "save the day" by catching an escaping/emerging fire. We all know big fires = big dollars. By catching these types of fires the smj program pays for itself many times over. What a great investment!

I didn't try to step on anyone's toes or rope, and I am not saying the smj program is perfect, but it sounds like Jersey Boy has been looking for smj program info. Come on out, take a tour and visit a while!

Sign Me
BBSMJP (Bring Back the Smokejumper Program)
5/29 Sounds as if Jersey Boy has a thorn in the side over Smokejumpers (??)

Got to throw my spittle into this fray. This turf deal with rotor and
fixed wing efficiencies has been going on FOREVER -- or at least since the
days of the Wright Bros. I remember drawing circles on maps and plotting
times of arrival, etc., etc. to see who was "fastest," who was "best."
NEVER ENDING.

I come from a family of Smokejumpers, Helitack, Pilots, Shots, regular ol'
ground pounders -- you name it -- and we've beat it to death at many
"wonderful" holiday dinner tables.

First, let's talk "Fraternity." Yep, that's right on -- but a better word
would be "team" -- and it fits or SHOULD fit every entity sent out of our
firefighting tool box -- that's what makes "efficiencies" efficient.
Believe me smokejumpers don't own the fraternity/sorority concept.

How about "tradition" -- the "stock" reason why smokejumpers don't try
different aerial delivery methods? Well -- I must dispute this one. After
seeing programs that work, vs. don't work, programs that are safe vs.
unsafe -- I think TRADITION is better described as SPECIALIZATION. Too
much diversity of duties and the emphasis on one resource doing it all --
just leads to trouble. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN on ONE system -- and the system
becomes more efficient and safe. Switching between procedures, methods of
delivery and equipment is something that shouts WATCH OUT. Not sure which
poison I'd pick -- being attached to a hovering huge bird on a hot day, or
jumping away from a flying bird on a hot day hoping to steer away from any
number of "great" leg-breaker landing spots.

Speaking from the love-hate relationship with the smokejumping/helicopter
community that keeps life entertaining:

CACHE QUEEN

Hi Cache Queen. Actually the smoke jumpers came up because of an "Outside" article, but I agree with you about the entertaining rivalry between crews and maintaining a "variety of tools" to call on. Ab.
5/29 In case someone might want to know what the National Weather Service says
about the origin of a MICROBURST or DOWNBURST wind, here is the Special
Weather Statement for Southern Utah for this afternoon, along with a
definition of same. Think safety with every breath you take,

Hunter

SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SALT LAKE CITY UT
0936 AM MDT THU MAY 29 2003

...STRONG MICROBURST WINDS TODAY...

STRONG GUSTY WINDS TO 50 MPH OR HIGHER ARE LIKELY TODAY NEAR SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS ALTHOUGH LITTLE OR NO RAIN WILL REACH THE GROUND. MICROBURST OR DOWNBURST WINDS OCCUR WHEN RAIN EVAPORATES BELOW THE CLOUD BASE AND THE EVAPORATIVELY COOLED AIR RUSHES DOWNWARD AND SPREADS OUT AS A WIND GUST AFTER IT HITS THE GROUND. CONDITIONS TODAY ARE IDEAL FOR THIS TO OCCUR AND EVEN SMALL SHOWERS WILL BE CAPABLE OF GENERATING STRONG WINDS.
5/29 CNN will be airing an hour long documentary called
"Summer of Fire" next week. It's a look at the 2002
fire season, and some of the issues that deal with
wildfires.

Its runs Sunday, June 8th at 8 & 11 pm (ET)

GK

I think the producer of this piece got some help from theysaid behind the scenes in finding some particular kind of video footage. Might be interesting to see what the documentary is like... Expect a "test" the day after. Ab.
5/29

I am trying to find a job working as a wildland firefighter. I will be getting the basic training the week of June 16th. I was told that a man named Pappy had listed a link to all of the places that were still looking for crew members, and I looked for his name but I could not find it. I am willing to move anywhere in the states and can leave as soon as I am done with the training. If there is any information out there that could help me, that would be great. Firefighting is what I want to do with my life and I am trying to get the word out. I am also willing to start working when all of the students go back to school in August.

Thanks for your help,
R Ty O

Hi Ty, that post sometime last week was by Papa. Here's the url. http://wwwnotes.fs.fed.us:81/r1/hr/fstemphire.nsf
Good luck with continuing in your efforts. Excellent that you created an opportunity for acquiring the basics. Keep up your PT. Your name has got to be on the most recent "list". Your dogged persistence will pay off. Ab.
5/29 Hey Al,

What CDF radio rules are you asking about? We have a program text course that all new employees take explaining our system and the use of same.

I'm not really sure what you want!
Captain Emmett
5/29 Ab-

the latest out of washington on competitive outsourcing. we'll see how the fed fire agencies deal. to view the entire article, go www.washingtonpost.com

on a related note: will there ever be contract smokejumpers?

JerseyBoy
5/29 OOFG,

Thanks for the details on the PreAttack Plans. Reminds us all of the grunt work that went into protecting the woods from fire and all the knowledge that we might have lost with those retiring. I hope that whatever records remain get put on computer and backed up. Such information seems invaluable to me.

SM2
5/29 Anybody know what the radio rules are for CDF?

Al
5/29 Ab;

Was I incorrect in reading the objection to parades as a joke?

But even so, one thing I’ve noticed in our area is that even though a parade may mean being in full gear (wildland or bunkers) on hot asphalt for several hours at a stretch, we tend not to prepare like we would if we were “working”. This results in firefighters on parade who are hung over (nah, that never happens), who aren’t paying attention to staying watered up, or who are otherwise not paying attention to their physical condition like they would on a fire line.

I think having firefighters on parade is a good thing…it may offend the dignity of some, but realize that we are part of the community, we are (largely) tax-payer supported, and getting our faces out there is a good thing. Especially as a volunteer, I think it’s a great thing to raise community awareness that these are their friends and relatives and co-workers who are protecting lives and property. People tend to think about all emergency response as sort of automatic. Something goes wrong, they call 911, something gets fixed. Getting in people’s faces helps them realize that there are a few extra steps in that equation.

Nerd on the Fireline
5/29 Parades are good.

I showed up to one in my area in nomex and had a little kid yelling, "Mommy, Mommy, look, a REAL firefighter." Made my day, my week, my parade experience! If I have a heart attack and die while on parade, St Peter will have to do that kid one better!

Todd
5/29 Ab,
Was just reading your they said section and found a subject dear to my
heart. Keeping a sawyer safe. My wife even perks up when I get new safety
info. So I just Wanted to post my two cents worth. Could you post the
following to mouse:

Honorable Mouse,

Over a few years I have used several methods for alert while running a
power saw. The best method until recently was pcord around my secondary
wrist. One tug and I'm removing myself down a predetermined escape path.
This works well but has no directives. If my swamper is trying to warn me
of a snag falling towards me via my escape path Ive just went from bad to
worse. If you think about it you could see lots of what if problems to this
solution.

I have recently purchased an ear bud for my BK radio that I placed inside
my ear muff. I contacted the FCC and received my own radio frequency (after
a $15 fee for a commercial application) and now use it with my swamper (your
agency may have a little used freq that you could piggy back on). This
answer works well for me after working out some very short commands for my
swamper. The drawback is that you must be familiar with your swamper and
work with him/her alot to know these commands. Full descriptions of the
problem tends to lead to the problem making itself aware to you before your
swamper does. The other drawback is that the radio parts are expensive and
not as hardened as could be. You also still only have one way communication.
I am always open to new techniques (especially those that make my job safer
and easier) So if you have any better ideas let me know.

Saw guy.

Glad you chimed in Saw guy. Ab.
5/29 To all:

Don't you find it very suspicious that the number of deaths from firefighters
participating in parades aren't included in NIFC statistics? I think this
information should be available. Many firefighters are ordered to take part
in parades, usually without adequate training or preparation. How can we keep
sending firefighters out on potentially fatal parade assignments unless we've
done the research and gotten a doctor's assessment of the medical threats of
parade assignments?

For that matter, what do parades have to do with firefighting? Why do we put
firefighters at risk for an activity with an unproven connection to
firefighting? What about firefighters that lose their jobs because they
can't/won't participate in parades? Where are the unions on this? I don't
care what Brian Sharkey says, we're losing too many firefighters. In all my
years of fighting fire I never had to take place in a parade, why now????

Concerned,
BLM Bob
5/29 Honorable Mouse:

We used to use a very simple system of communication between faller and spotter: a piece of paracord -- however long it needed to be -- one end tied to the faller's arm the other in the hand of the spotter. One pull by the spotter and the faller is out of there (without the saw, of course). I personally witnessed this system save a guy's life as the top of a snag came down right where he had been working. Hope this helps...not as hi-tech as radios but definitely does the job.

NMAirBear
5/29 The Honorable Mouse

The powers that be say you cannot use the $40 FRS radios.

Family Radio Service (FRS) Radios
The Department's of Agriculture and Interior have prohibited the use of Family
Radio Service (FRS) radios. FRS radios cannot be used by anyone associated with
federal wildland fire/incidents. This includes agency, military, and contractor
personnel. Contact Steve Jenkins for more information.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/Hotsheet/Hotsheet.html

Someone wanted to know what kind of engine was on the Dillon District of the White
River NF. Last year it was a type 6X, FS model 52, 2000 Ford F-450, 300 gallons
w/foam known as Engine 610. I don't believe it changed this year.

Big Blue
5/29 To the Honorable Mouse:

I can’t comment on the use of the walkie-talkies with an earpiece, as I haven’t any experience. However in the construction industry they are now combining walkie-talkie type communication equipment right into a set of earmuffs. Most commonly used for the guy on the ground (name???) to communicate with the crane driver. They are fully integral with a boom microphone attached. Some even have the feature of taking FM radio broadcast (supposedly so that a single site broadcast would reach all the workers on a site in case of an emergency but is mainly used to listen to the local FM music station).

Down here 3M Australia was certainly evaluating them and they are sourced out of the States. Had full OSHA & NIOSH approvals on the accompanying literature. They also come in a model to attach directly onto a helmet without the head strap. Just remember that the use of an earpiece is not the same as wearing an earplug (or ear muff), which are designed to REDUCE the amount of noise that reaches the eardrum. Either one of two things will happen a) the ear piece will not provide enough sound reduction so that damaging sound levels still reach the ear drum or, b) the ear piece blocks out all sound which means the user can’t hear any sound coming from that direction i.e. a shouted warning or blast of a horn (can lead to spatial disorientation).

If 3M have them, then surely they must also be in the market from other manufacturers (check out these sites http://www.rahq.com/eartec.htm . http://www.probuy.net/dir/42.html or http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/html/Peltor.htm#powercom )

Good luck
Aussie CFU
5/29 TO Aberdeen,

Its always sad when we lose a firefighter in the line of duty, but its even sadder when someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly from a routine activity such as working out, sweeping the floor, doing the Pack Test, or preparing for a public activity.

But to demand that all of the fire service cease parade activities because one man dies from a heart attack is unrealistic. You are getting out of hand with your demand, because predominantly volunteers suffer from sudden death more than any other group in both the wildland and structural areas.

I won't stop participating in parades because of a fluke accident. How do you know this wouldn't have happened before or after the parade, or what the man's physical condition was that night or morning?

In the words of the Immortal Sgt. Hulka: "Lighten up, Francis."

MOC4546
5/29 Ab-

Here's some info that might be of interest to some folks. There are outsourcing brochures that were shared with Congress last week during lobby week by the Union, during their meetings/briefings with Senators, Congressmen, and Congressional Committees. There is also information on health benefits and workman's comp for those who are interested. Thanks to the union reps who are tackling the outsourcing issue!

Treehggr

Ab formatted the info and here's the stuff on Outsourcing. If you'd like us to send you the info on health benefits and workman's comp, let us know.
5/28 Emily,

To further what Rotor2fire is saying. The primary mission of helicopters is to deliver firefighters and drop water on "initial attack" fires. "initial attack" meaning the first action taken on a fire. Helicopters have limitations on paylaod but they fly very fast and can land in some pretty amazing places. If no landing area is available, rappel crews can deploy and fight fire or build a landing zone for the helicopter.

Specialized training is required for working around helicopters, mostly focusing on safety and proper use of this valuable and expensive resource. Rappel crews go through extensive training on the ground and in the air to safely rappel to the ground. Rappelling is a tool in the toolbox, but it is only a way to get firefighters to the ground. Landing is the preferred method for deploying firefighters.

I hope this helps you in your research,
sting
5/28 See, the Redding smokejumpers are in SoCal removing dead and dying trees.
www.press-enterprise.com
Firescribe
5/28 Falling Safety

It’s always been a concern of mine when falling trees, especially on fires, that my spotter won’t be able to communicate "incoming danger" (usually falling objects from the tree) to me in a timely enough fashion to do the me any good. Nearly all fallers wear "hearing protection" of some kind, either ear plugs or ear muffs. This is a health issue plus in one respect and a safety hazard in another.

Has anyone out there tried using the small handheld walkie talkie type radios with an ear phone for improving faller safety? Like the faller uses the ear phone and the swamper the handset to communicate with him. The set I’m currently toying with costs $40.00 and has worked well in other applications of "near proximity" communications in high noise level environments.

The Honorable Mouse.
5/28 Emily,

There are three "types" of helicopters and each has particular minimum specifications for allowable payload, number of passenger seats, and water or retardant carrying capability, etc. If you want to see what those are, look in the IHOG (Interagency Helicopter Operations Guide, Chapter 6 on page 2. Here's a link to the entire manual www.nifc.gov/ihog/ with all the specifications and rules for helicopters. The Arroyo Grande sikorsky that Ab mentioned is a Type 1 or Heavy Helicopter and its crew is a Type 1 Flight Crew. They have to be certified in the Type 1 Crew requirements like hotshots.

Rappel crews usually travel on smaller ships. Before we get onboard, we have to enter our accurate weight and the weight of our gear and tools into calculations to make sure the load isn't too heavy, given the mission and flying conditions. Conditions change during the course of the day. The pilot has to constantly be careful we're not flying too high or too heavy when it's too hot - given the ship's flying capabilities.

On the photo part of this website, you should flip through the helicopter photo pages to see the rapelling and aircraft photos. There's even some photos of a descent taken through a helmet cam. I know what that feels like, sometimes rapelling from 125 ft. Yeow, what a rush! Fighting fire using helicopters to get there and back home is a fun career. Sometimes exhausting, we work our butts off, but fun with great people. Can't wait to get back up and out.

You can find training info for aviation positions on Ab's links page. Here's a good one: http://iat.nifc.gov/. Look down the lefthand list there, click "position descriptions" and see what classes people working with helicopters have to take. I did a bunch of ACE training this spring. It's terrific. You can do some of it online and some at the training site. I'd recommend it to anyone. One thing about all modes of firefighting - when we're not flying or fighting fire, we're training.

Rotor2fire
5/28 Emily,

Here's an old unofficial Malheur Rappel Crew site with some info.
www.eskimo.com/~joelm/fire/malheur.html

C
5/28 These questions may have been asked (and answered) but I did not see the
results, so....

Why are the five Region 5 Type I IMT web sites down?
When are they expected back on line?

Thanks...Lasagna

Hi Lasagna, nice mention, BTW.
The team pages have moved servers. Check our Links page under Federal. That will take you to the Type I and Type II Team pages with appropriate links. Ab.
5/28

Getting along with others

As crews are finishing training and "tooling up", thoughts turn to getting along with each other and working together as a crew. As we all know, many in their first season and beyond are reasonably qualified and capable. Often their success depends on whether they can get along.

A friend sent some advice to me. The original was transcribed from an Ann Landers column from some years ago. I've modified it in some cases. (The original column was entitled: The Ten Commandments of How to Get Along with People.) If anyone has further modifications relevant to wildland firefighting they'd like to add, please contribute. This bare-bones list could be altered in more true and humorous ways.

  1. Keep skid chains on your tongue. Always say less than you think. Remember your tone of voice and body language are part of your message. Make an effort to talk less and listen more. How you say something often counts more than what you say.
  2. Make promises sparingly and keep them faithfully. We need to be able to rely on each other.
  3. Never let an opportunity pass to say a kind and encouraging word to or about somebody. Praise good work. A well-placed comment may spur another to better themself. As one improves, so does the crew.
  4. Be interested in others: their pursuits, their work, their homes and their (other) family. We also are a family. As with family, make merry with those who rejoice: with those who weep, mourn -- unless what they really need is a kick in the ass. Let everyone you meet, however humble, feel that you regard them as a person of importance.
  5. Be cheerful -- well, at least no whining. Don't burden those around you by dwelling on your aches and pains and small disappointments. Remember, everyone is carrying some kind of a burden, and maybe more gear than you.
  6. Keep an open mind. Discuss but don't argue unless your safety depends on it. In general, think before you speak when nerves are frayed and conversation gets "hot". It is a mark of a superior mind to be able to disagree without being disagreeable, especially with your crew supt or squaddies.
  7. Let your virtues, if you have any left, speak for themselves. Refuse to talk about the vices of others, unless someone's life depends on it. Discourage gossip. Some of it is a waste of valuable time and can be destructive and hurtful.
  8. Take into consideration the feelings of others. Wit and humor at the expense of another is never worth the pain you may inflict. Weeeeeell, maybe sometimes it is, knowing the twisted humor of our fire crew. See the next "commandment".
  9. Cultivate a thick skin. Pay no attention to ill-natured remarks about you or your mama. Remember, the messenger may not be the most accurate reporter. Simply live so that nobody will believe them.
  10. Don't be anxious about the credit due you. Do your best and be patient. Ultimately your actions will speak louder than words. Forget about yourself and let others "take note of" your accomplishments. Success is much sweeter that way.

Tahoe Terrie

Ab, please add: PS. Thanks for the feedback on defensible space.
5/28 Hi, my name is Emily, and for school I'm researching Helitack and firefighting. I would like to have some information about the helicopters from someone who knows. If you could direct me to someone that could tell me certain types used for fires and training or if you know yourself, could you please email me back soon!

Thank you for your time,
Emily

We normally don't post these, simply reply, but if anyone wants to contribute, feel free. Since the AT's and smokejumpers got mentioned this morning, the helicopter folks might want an excuse to wade in. (Why not train smokejumpers to helirappel?) Correct me if I'm wrong, Emily, but you probably need some firefighters to quote in your report, right? And the report is due tomorrow? ;-)

You also might want to take a look at the Arroyo Grande Flight Crew photo page. Click on the words under any of the photos for the description of the crew and what the AG Heavy does.

Here's another informative link from the Forest Service web: Helicopters: Multitasking aircraft. Links there to more Helitack and Rappeller info. Ab.
5/28 For those following the tankers, here's an update from the Coloraodan and Rose Davis:
...only nine heavy air tankers are ready to go if called upon today -- five heavy P-3s and four DC-type tankers. Nine P2V Neptunes and two SP2Hs await inspection protocols ...before they are eligible for flight.
AL

There are also going to be 8 MAFFS available, the article says. Ab.
5/28 Re: We're Toast

I think the author went to far in calling for the
elimination of the jumpers, but i think he raised a
relevant, if underdiscussed point: the jumpers are
incredibly expensive for the services they provide. i
guess this could be applied to many different aspects
of fire.

however, the question should be asked: are
smokejumpers necessary and desired? i think the
answer is "yes, but..."

the "but..." has to do with the rappel program, which
is still in many ways in its infancy. it seems that
this is a much more efficient way of transporting
firefighters, except for extremely long distances into
wilderness areas. it also seems that there is a lot
of resistance on the part of the jump community to
"share" its territory with the rappellers.

last summer's national geographic article on the
russian jumpers was interesting in that it noted that
their jumpers were also rappellers, and that only very
infrequently did they jump, most of the time they
rappelled. when i started asking questions about why
the US jumpers weren't rappellers as well, the stock
answer i got was "tradition."

most folks told me that the jumpers would vehemently
oppose any external change to their program, and that
since the jump community is so close (the word
'fraternity' was used often), and the public
perception of the jumpers was so grand, that the
program would never be cut - people would be left
wondering who would put the fires out.

i don't know to what extent what i was told is true,
but from what i've seen and heard there can and should
be changes made to the jump program.

my view as a firefighter and a taxpayer, is that if
we're doing things simply for the sake of "tradition"
and because of a mis-educated public attitude towards
the way fires are managed, we need as a fire
organization to start to re-evaluate our programs.

i certainly don't agree with the author of the outside
magazine article and think the jump program should be
eliminated. but the wildland fire world is going to
go through some major changes very soon - some that
will dramatically alter the jobs and lives of the
people who fight fires - and that may include the jump
program too.

JerseyBoy
5/28 We added a new Current Event category to the News Page: Bark Beetle and Fire. There are a whole new slew of articles under the standard categories as well. Interesting to browse through if you have time.

Updated the Jobs Page, wildland firefighter Series 462 and Series 455 yesterday.

Ab.
5/28 Anyone know what happened to this alternative to (Bush's) Healthy Forests legislation? Did it just fall by the wayside as competing legislation?

Federal Lands Hazardous Fuels Reduction Act of 2003
Rep. George Miller (D-CA) and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR)
www.house.gov/defazio/040303EGRelease.shtml

NorCal Tom

I think so. Ab.
5/28 Another interesting few on the wildfire situation in the US: the May 26th issue of "High Country News" (www.hcn.org) has a detailed feature article titled "A losing battle" authored by Ray Ring.

JC - I too thought that the anti-SJ comment in "Outside" was a cheap shot: the author watched the pennies while the $100 bills burned up!

The whole wildfire issue has definitely got the limelight nationally: now's the time for knowledgeable, experienced professionals in the business to step forward and make your feelings known to those who make the decisions (and allocate the $$).

Mollysboy
5/28 Tahoe Terrie-

The Public Resource Code says the minimum clearance is a minimum of 30 feet
or a minimum of 100 feet if the CDF Unit Chief determines that fuels, slope,
and potential warrant the decision. Some are a case by case decision and
some are a geographical area decision. In any case the landowner is given
no authority to continue past their property line, a problem in rural zoning
where 25 foot setback minimums are common. The USFS is responsible for
clearance inspections on private lands within the Forest boundary and Direct
Protection Area based upon the CDF Unit Chief's decision. USFS recreational
leases are a special case. The law requires that the clearance be provided
on lands that are leased, owned, controlled, or occupied. If the recreation
lease is only for the footprint of the cabin the leasee may not be
responsible for clearance unless otherwise stipulated. They leasee may want
to clear for 100 feet but may not have the authority. What happens if they
cut vegetation on the Forest without permission? Now back to the rest of my
bowl of esoteric dry cereal!

JW
5/28 Tahoe Terrie

We're telling people on slopes especially to clear defensible space to 100 feet. With all the rain we've had there's LOTS of tall grass in CA. Northern CA has it thicker and taller than normal. Currently it's green, but all it will take is a few days of drying and "walla" lots of fine fuel. We're telling them to break out their weed whackers too and get to whacking.

CDFer
5/28 Anyone else notice that the "clear the flammable veg and ladder fuels around
homes" has jumped from 30 feet to 100 feet? Heard a CDFer say that
yesterday.

Tahoe Terrie
5/28 Stu, were you able to procreate? Howz your memory? Maybe you didn't inhale.

Just wonderin'
Everybody, hit the ground poundin'. Be Safe.
Furrrball
5/28 We're Toast article:

Biggest ticket item in firefighting is the air war. Surprised
Gantenbein didn't go after the ATs and the heavies. Picking
on the SJs seems kinda underhanded.

Actually, a good article. Many of us could say the same,
except when looking in the faces of folks who are about to
loose everything. That said, the Public needs to get a clue about
protecting their own homes. Homes, just another kind of fuel
type if you get right down to it ... in the abstract. Triage, name
of the game. Hard as that is.

Todd
5/28 Aberdeen,

Ref the Parades, I think you have just had your leg gently pulled!!!

The message is, life is deadly.

A Kiwi FF
5/28 Dead trees... bigtime

Comments are escalating from "Oh my" to "Oh Sh*t" here in AZ. We've got some 50-90% beetle kill ponderosa on the Prescott National Forest south of Prescott down toward Mt. Union and Crown King. We have had a major thicket of ladder fuels, now this. Something gets going and we're set for a major rager, get out of the way already.

Heard about but didn't read that article yet, but "we're toast" might not begin to describe our situation.

Be Safe,
Strider
5/27 Mollysboy, what did you think of the lines
"One good place to start with the cost-cutting: smoke jumpers. They're brave, motivated and charismatic, but they're far too expensive for the service they provide... The deep-wilderness fires they're best-suited to fight are precisely the ones that usually should be left alone. Maintaining nine federal smoke jumping bases and 400 jumpers, meanwhile, sucks up some $20 million a year."
What would firefighting be without the smokejumpers? Regarding where to let fires burn and where to suppress, the article made lots of sense... in the abstract...

JC
5/27 Meghan: Graduation Fire started by lightning on 5/24/2003 at 1100 near Ojo Feliz NM.
It's now 325 acres on state land, 90% contained.

Had about 90 firefighters fighting the blaze over the weekend, now has 35 state and private personnel working it, 7 engines, 1 type 2 handcrew mostly doing mopup. The fire burned in ponderosa pine and grassland. No homes or structures threatened.

That's about it. The season is underway...
Toby
5/27 Aberdeen:

What the hell are you talking about!!

Any Fire Service agency that doesn't participate in simple, good PR for the
department, out there being visible, interacting with the public; is living
in the past.
If you think the heart attack occurred just because he was in a parade;
driving.?
Come on now!
Our job descriptions! It's your job to be in the public, visible, and
strutting your equipment.
Get that written into your contract

The STRESS you're talking about is your lack of comfort and progressiveness.
Yes it is a shame the firefighter died (god protect us all.. everyday)

Forgive me and correct me if I read your post wrong...

sfirelake
5/27 STOP KILLING FIREFIGHTERS!!!

It's time for all of us in the firefighting business to stand up and end this MADNESS~!!

NO MORE PARADES!!!

Yes, another fellow firefighter (49 years old) has died of cardiac arrest while driving a fire truck in a Memorial Day parade in Pennsylvania. And this is not the first fatality resulting from a parade: checking the records, we find other fellow firefighters dying while polishing their trucks IN PREPARATION for a parade.

Where in our job descriptions does it say we have to participate in parades? Has the stress of driving on busy streets in front of thousands of our fellow citizens ever been medically tested? We should have the drivers hooked up to an EKG in their engine cabs to get real-time readings on their heart rates and possible arrhythmias.

If you think the exposure once a year taking the Work Capacity Test is too much, consider all the Parades each year: Xmas, Easter, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor day, Veteran's Day, County Fair, Homecoming.........this list of high risk exposures goes on and on!

As a firefighter community, we must protect our fellow firefighters from this unnecessary risk: speak up now, to your Agency Administrators, Union Reps, County Commissioners, VFW officials, etc. SAVE FIREFIGHTER LIVES!!!

Aberdeen
5/27 OOFG,
2-4-D + 2-4-5-T mixed with diesel, ah, those were the days. Thanks for the memories!
Stu
5/27 For those of you receiving the "Next Generation Fire Shelter", I pose a
question.

Since the new practice shelters and video will not be out until July (hope),
are you using the old practice shelter as the tool to train with along with
the Next Generation Pamphlet?
or
Will you not train and distribute until the time the video and practice
shelter is in your hand?
or
other opinions?

Heatin up

sfirelake
5/27 Does anybody know anything about the Graduation Fire in Mora county, New Mexico?

Meghan
5/27 T o: SM, DAS, Yactak & Mellie:

Pre Attack Plans are just that, pre attack, prefire starts. It entails a
TOTAL inventory (write ups) of fuel types, access routes w/ weight or size
limitations, water sources & availability by season, proposed helispots,
ports, staging areas + size, firecamp locations + size, plus aerial hazards,
etc,etc. All info collected was recorded and all FS districts used same data
collection methods and forms. Can't remember if data was ever duplicated for
SO's.

FS districts were broken down in logical blocks of 10,000 to 30,000 acres.
Most were limited to smaller than 30,000 acres, depending in transportation
plan and limited by topographic features from a fire standpoint, mainridges,
secondary ridges, etc. Each district was assigned a letter, ie., district #
1 would be assigned A, #2 district B and so forth. Next step, each district
was divided into blocks as specified above with each block assigned a letter
designation, ie, A, B, C and so forth. So......if district 1 is A, their
first block was AA, next block AB and so forth. Each pre-attack block's
writeups kept in large three ring binders, now probably on computer. But, in
any case paper can be copied, computer may be down. Data can be used if IA
fails. Maps were kept in Pre-Attack Atlas by the individual block. Data can
take a lot of time to complete, by knowledgeable fire management people. On
the S-TNF, Pre-Attack used to set up automatic Dispatch. Was fast & easy.
System set up on Plans Green, Yellow, Orange & Red. All dispatch said was
initiate Orange plan for Block AB or what ever. Then checked off engines and
crews as they went in service. All IA forces knew where they to go. If you
didn't go in service, dispatch would gig ya. Cut down on a lot of radio
traffic. By gearing dispatch to pre-attack, eliminated everything else.
Course takes some thought by experienced folks to set up. Course can be
revised if need be.

Begin constructing signs (called targets). Targets are assembled, mark an
drill holes for mounting to posts, paint targets, construct needed
stencils, stencil data on target. Targets are equilateral triangles, 12
inches per side. Mounted flat side on top. These are stamped out of 12 or 14
gauge metal, can't remember which. Painted orange. Mounted on a metal post,
I think 8' length, so they can be driven into the ground w/post driver. Then
sighs are mounted w/metal screws or pop rivets. I have made them from
scratch, a pain. Find out how many are needed then contract out, the best
way. Whole block or district at a time, for cost. Course, when a fire goes
thru your area, new targets are in order. Have a spare or two.

Begin actual fireline (fuelbreaks) & helispot construction as funds are
available. Once this is started can be time consuming but can be well worth
it. Maintenance of these two items used to be done by muleback spraying a
solution of 2-4-D + 2-4-5-T + diesel about every three years. To kill brush
resprouting. Don't think chemicals are allowed now. An acquaintance of mine
came up with an alternative of planting perennial grasses in the fuelbreaks
as they are easy to zip down and clean out as needed, or a scratch line by
hand crews to fire from. Think that went under the guise as type conversion
as I understand it. This was done on the Cuyama side of the LP in the early
to mid 50's.

The onground writeups very important as fuel types, aspect, slope and
distance (chs) of line construction time elements, say geared to present day
crew size, also for dozers, during planning phase worth a bunch because all
proposed lines (ridges) have been walked on the ground and hazards as (rock
outcrops) (bluffs) that are not passable with machines. Better to know before
hand, as thats when you hear that little voice talkin to ya, your in deep
stuff huh?

If actual construction cannot be done, put targets at the beginning and
ending of proposed line construction along main & secondary roads or known
access, that way they can be located by folks on the ground that are not
familiar with the area. The writeups & inventories have been done at least.
A whole lot better than just stating out with a map and a dream in the dark.
Been there, done that!!

On the Shasta-Trinity, Shasta side on the McCloud District, we started
inventory and signing in mid 60's also on the Modoc NF. Don't know how any
of it finally turned out. Also did some Pre-Attack mapping and inventory in
R6 on the Willamette NF in mid 70's.

I can say I about fainted when I read in "TheySaid" that some of the old
data was thrown out!! That's hard to swallow as a lot of info and Blood
Sweat & Tears went into it!! By folks that are gone now and experiences of a
whole generation of fire evolution is lost!! I mean the Mansfield's,
Currants, Dillingham's and Barr and others. Think the only one still around
is Jerry Berry. Particularly on the LPNF. You know if one doesn't learn from
past mistakes your bound to make'en again!! Some time you don't get away
with it a second time if you had some trouble the first time!! I was an ops
chief that got smart and went into Safety my last 5 yrs. Think this is where
it is!! Always remember, you can grow more bushes!! Just follow the
"Established Safety Rules", there was a cost for write'em!!

Good Luck ,
Old, old fire guy=OOFG
5/26 Anybody out there read the article "We're Toast" by Douglas Gantenbein in the June 2003 "Outside" magazine?? Your thoughts.........?

Mollysboy
5/26 Hi
I am a student going to Georgain College and taking a pre-service firefighting course. i have always been interested in the forest firefighting. i was hoping that you could send me some information on forest firefighting and if i could take any course that would help me get into the program.
If u could send me anything information that would be greatly appreciated.
Mike E
email: yoggiebear3@hotmail.com

Hi Mike, I am unaware of wildland firefighting training in Ontario Canada, nor do I know about 2 or 4 year Canadian universities or programs where you could train as a firefighter. We have pages of links to such programs in the US on the links page under training & education, bottom category.

In the US, people apply to be federal or state wildland firefighters and are trained on the job. Some go to schools that have firefighting programs or take vocational education classes in firefighting, like the Regional Occupational Program offerings in CA. Some volunteer and receive training. Volunteering can get you a foot in the door. Maybe there are Canadians reading who can answer your question. Have you asked at Job Connect at your college? Ab.
5/26 Hello,

Trying to figure out all of the IHC's starting dates (what
year the crew was established as an IHC). Any Help
would be appreciated.

Breuklander

Maybe you know about the Hotshot page, link on the links page under jobs related links. The first link goes to the National Interagency Hotshot Crew Page that has many broken links as the FS website has been redesigned. I don't know if the crew page will be updated. There is also a FS page called the Interagency Hotshot Crew List that links to hotshot crews across the US. Get into that site and you will get a page that has a link to the hotshot crew website if there is one. Most crew websites have a history narrative that has the starting date. There are many crews with no websites as yet. I suggest you do some research on the 91 or so crews listed there and then ask about specific crews for which you can't find a date. Ab.
5/26 Hello all,

I have a simple question that may require a not so simple answer. The sexual harassment stuff, that i know everyone and their mother has heard. My question is simply is there a list of Mags. that are "non-offensive" and "offensive" out there?........... Sigh............

PS
5/26 From Firescribe,

This is good to see. Pressures from the market place tend to raise awareness.
Fire-prone properties could lose insurance coverage
5/25 Hi everyone,

I am a college student majoring in computer science. I am interested in the
position of Computer Technician Specialist for wildfires, but am not
familiar with the process of becoming an AD employee and getting called out.

I worked last year as a FF2 on a contract engine crew and have several years
experience in computer networking, troubleshooting, repair, and websites for
school districts, businesses and individuals.

Are there any FMOs or others out there who could offer some advice? One of
my questions is what classes might be required for this position? If any
specific classes are required, are there any scheduled for this year,
preferably in the Northwest? I have already completed my refresher class
and pack test for this year.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer! KC

I've had the experience of working several fires with a national team as their CTSP, so may be able to provide some insight. Region 5 has offered a CTSP training class for a few years now but I'm unsure of other areas. I'm also unaware of any formal training or requirements for the position. The R5 class (when I attended) provided some limited network training, but focused mainly on the ISuite software program. More information and downloads for I-Suite are available here: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/fire/i-suite/ Probably the easiest way to get experience with the program is to go to a fire or two as a CDER (computer data entry recorder). Other than general computer operation skills, I don't think there are any formal requirements for the CDER position and they are usually in high demand. Once you have a working knowledge of the software used, you will need to have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of networking various pc operating systems. Networking skills should include connecting Windows9x, 2000, and XP to each other, knowledge of access points both wired and wireless, servers, routers, hubs, sharing files/printers, etc. Best way to get the networking skills is to find a current CTSP and get them to request you as a trainee. Check the teams pages to find the CTSPs and make personal contact, there are some very good ones out there. They won't have time to hold your hand on a fire, so you should have a fairly strong working knowledge of networking before you start asking. Ab
5/24 Old, old, Fire Guy = OOFG
I have been a lurker for some years as I have been retired 8/88 but worked
as an AD for 8 more seasons.

Would like to try an answer some of the questions on Pre-Attack Plans for
SM,DAS,Yactak & Mellie. I personally worked on plans in R5, & R6. How do I
answer in "they said" Old, old fire guy

All anyone needs to do to get a message posted here is click the "Email Ab" button at the top of this or any other page on the site. Put your message in the content of your email and send 'em in. To avoid our trash bin, it's probably better not to include Viagra or XXX in the Subject line. ;-) Ab.
05/23 Updated the Jobs Page, wildland firefighter Series 462 and Series 455.
Ab.
05/23 There are many old signs still around, at least on Lassen NF. Whether the
paper records still exist or not I cannot say.

-=Dave=-
05/23 Tahoe Terrie,

In answer to some of your SEAT questions. By 2005 all SEATS will be required to have a red and white paint scheme as well as bold i.d. numbers on the top of the left wing and bottom of the right wing. Those that don't change right away will have to have large black and white i.d. stripes on their wings. As I understand it there are 38 SEAT's on federal exclusive use contracts this year. There are quite a few threads on this subject on the message board at www.airtanker.com. I hope this helps.

nv 'yote
05/23
To all federal firefighters,

There are some big changes ahead for DoD firefighters. This is what they are planning to do to us. This is the proposal outline put out by AFGE on their federal firefighter web page. Its shows changes that will impact DoD firefighters and all DoD employees. If this bill is passed for DoD employees, then it will likely be adopted for many different federal agencies.

"The new DoD civilian personnel system proposal will change your job. Unless you stop Congress from agreeing to the Rumsfeld Plan.

Background
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has sent to Capitol Hill legislation which would place civilian DoD employees under a completely new personnel system. And DoD has asked for Congress to include these changes in the FY 2004 Defense Authorization bill, which will be considered by the House and Senate Armed Services Committees starting at the end of April.

The Rumsfeld proposal would allow DoD to waive approximately 12 major chapters of Title 5, United States Code (Title 5 is the section of the law which covers government organization and federal employment), and create a new personnel system in place of those chapters.

The major areas which could be waived by DoD under this proposal are:

Pay and Position Classification Systems (chapters 53 and 51):
Waiving chapter 51 means that both the General Schedule (GS) and Federal Wage System (FWS) or Wage Grade (WG) systems can be eliminated and replaced with a system that does not provide for the annual raises employees receive now. In addition, the new system would eliminate the within-grade step increases currently provided to employees who are eligible for them and who have performed at an acceptable level. Instead, they intend to put employees into a pay-banding system which allows supervisors to decide whether and by how much individual employees’ pay will be adjusted. In other words, goodbye to annual pay raises and step increases (within-grade increases or WIGIs). Your supervisor – not Congress – will decide whether you get a raise – and how much – or not. And if you don’t, you’ll be unlikely to have a chance to appeal your supervisor’s decision.

Chapter 53 covers the current classification system and requires that different pay levels for different jobs be based on the concept of “equal pay for substantially equal work”. A new system would not necessarily have to adhere to that standard. So jobs which are graded similarly now might be treated completely differently after the new system is in place.

Performance Appraisal System (chapter 43):
Chapter 43 allows management to take action against poor performers.

In order to ensure that workers are given a fair shake, the law provides employees with an opportunity to undergo a performance improvement period (p-i-p) before they are disciplined for poor performance. In a new system created by DoD, the p-i-p could be eliminated and/or the ability of the employee to appeal disciplinary action could be eliminated.

Due Process and Appeal rights for disciplinary actions (ch. 75 & 77):
Chapter 75 sets up a system for management to suspend, demote, or dismiss an employee. It also provides an employee with due process rights and the ability to appeal to the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB). Under this chapter, an employee against whom a disciplinary action is proposed is entitled to: (1) advance written notice of the disciplinary action, (2) a reasonable time to respond, (3) be represented by an attorney, (4) a written decision by the agency listing the specific reasons for the disciplinary action.

Chapter 77 establishes the procedures for appealing to the MSPB, establishes the procedures for appealing discrimination decisions either to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) or the MSPB, and establishes judicial review of MSPB decisions.

Waiving chapters 75 and 77 allows DoD management to set up a personnel system whereby employees have little or no right to information about why they are being disciplined, and little or no right to appeal decisions against them. This “managerial flexibility” raises profound constitutional questions.

Collective Bargaining Rights (chapter 71):
Chapter 71 allows federal employees to organize into unions and bargain collectively with management over some employment conditions. Waiving chapter 71 allows DoD management to create a new labor-management system tilted even more in favor of management.

In addition, language in the Rumsfeld proposal allows DoD to bypass local unions’ bargaining rights, and eliminates the process by which disputes between employee representatives and management are resolved.

Currently, impasses are sent to the Federal Services Impasses Panel (FSIP), a seven member board selected entirely by President Bush, which acts as a binding arbitrator on all disputes. The Rumsfeld Plan would prohibit any bargaining impasses, no matter how routine or unrelated to national security, from going to the FSIP. Instead, the bill would prevent any third-party dispute resolution outside DoD. This is totally unprecedented and ultimately makes the whole process a sham.

Hiring and Examination (chapters 31, 33):
The Rumsfeld proposal would allow DoD to waive requirements against hiring relatives, as well as eliminate requirements for merit-based testing for positions in the competitive service. Supervisors would be able to hire and promote their cronies, relatives, and political favorites if these sections of the law are eliminated.

Reduction-in-Force rules (chapter 35):
The Rumsfeld plan would eliminate the requirement that reductions-in-force be conducted on the basis of tenure of employment, length of service, and efficiency or performance ratings. In other words, supervisors could pick and choose -- based on favoritism rather than performance, merit, and seniority -- which employees get the pink slip and which don’t. This “flexibility” is being sought by the Department even after it successfully downsized several hundred thousand civilians after the Cold War without loss of mission-essential efficiencies and capabilities.

Training (chapter 41):
It is not clear at this time what flexibilities on training DoD is planning to implement.

AFGE Position:
AFGE strongly opposes the Rumsfeld Plan to change the personnel system for DoD civilians."

If this proposal passes we, as DoD firefighters< are going to be up a creek without a paddle. Hope the same isn't in store for all federal employees.

Trucky
05/23 Pulaski, that SEAT in your picture and all the other SEAT photos
on the airtankers pages made me wonder... Are all SEATS yellow?
Like all big airtankers are red and white? Are there more SEATS
this year because of the groundings of the C-130s and the PBYs?

Tahoe Terrie
05/23 SM,

I can't answer your question about whether information still exists that is tied to the old preattack signs. I imagine that there are some still working that may have an answer. However, I do know that it was much more widespread than the forests you mentioned. I have seen numerous faded preattack signs on other forests.

DAS
05/23 Lobotomy,

Just a note on the 0081 series for the DOD. That codes covers ALL aspects of Firefighting in the DOD. Wildland is but a sliver of the description. Although the Army has asked for a Vol. list this year. Maybe the fire line isn't that far off for some of us EX-"Wildlanders". You are correct though the Wildland FF's need to have a common series number.

Shooter
05/23 SM,

On the LP we were keeping current and updating pre attack plans well into the mid to late 70's. 'Twas part of our regular winter work schedule. Pre attack fellout of favor in the late 70's and early 80's with line direction to remove all of the pre attack markers.

Some techs, read 462 firefighters, opted to keep the books around. In the early 90's we started scouting the old blocks on the LP and doing current size ups and write-ups of the old dozer lines, helispots, water sources, firecamps, etc. This was all done due to the foresight of one retired LP Hotshot Supe, ML.

The engine captain at Rincon Station, LPF, is currently collecting all the updated data and producing district by district udated electronic data with GIS maps for the LPF. It is an ongoing project with HUGE kudos for resurrecting the program going to ML and also to the current Rincon Captain for all his work in keeping it alive..... Also to the former Captain (now SQF) for all of his work in helping get the program off the ground.

Yactak
05/23 Maybe someone will answer this in the course of the thread,
but what was the purpose of the "Pre-Attack Markers"? What
were preattack PLANS? If a fire starts here we'll do this and
this? Does anyone who ever followed one think it helped?
Were they for IA only or did they tell places where dozers could
go? Were they BEFORE dozers? Ancient history? <chortle>

What do the markers look like. Maybe I've seen one and not
recognized it.

Mellie
05/22 When I worked for the Forest Service in San Bernardino, I remember seeing metal stakes with triangular metal plates attached at the top of the stake. I was told that these were "Pre-Attack Markers". Just recently I spoke with a person that was involved with this program in the late '50s to early '60s. He said that from what he remembers is that the Cleveland, Angeles, San Bernardino and the Los Padres were the only Forests that had this program.

Is there anyone out there that maybe able to give us some history regarding the pre-attack markers? Does anyone know if any of the information still exists and where one could view and or copy it?

SM
05/22 Thank you Jim, for the link for the history of air fire fighting. I was born in Willows so I can't help but be interested. Although I am a generation younger, and I left Willows after my '65 high school graduation, the names are so familiar. My son is on an Arizona Hot Shot crew for the first time and I'll be reading this column every day.

Firegirl387 - others are giving you great advice; call daily. The FS is still filling positions because I get a couple of calls each week checking to see if my son is available.

Cog

Welcome Cog, glad you can join us. Things are heating up. Ab.
05/22 Some more photos up... on the Handcrews 8 photo page. More coming. Thanks to all contributors.

Flames and the Ventura County Fire Crew 1-1 from .............. Crew Guy Morton Salt

Some fire photos from Wisconsin where it's been a busy season already. Read the photo descriptions.

And some historical photos of Hot Shot Crews:
The El Cariso Hot Shots in 1972. Missing from the photo are Bill Gabbert (photographer) and Ron Campbell (Superintendent).
The Laguna Hot Shots in 1975. Missing from the photo is Bill Gabbert (photographer).
05/22 Some interesting info from the National Federation of Federal Employees
(NFFE- a union that covers federal employees) in a letter to the FS Chief
responding to a request for feedback on the plans for competitive sourcing.
Just a few more factoids for the conversation grist.

FirenWater

We put that up the week you were not online. Worth reading if you missed it. Ab.
05/22 Hello to all out there in Fire Land,
Here we are, yet another start to the summer Fire Season in the United States. Already this month we have had some good fire activity starting out in Southern California, Arizona, and New Mexico. According to the experts this year's Fire Season is going to be close to the severity of last year's season.

This is the time when many of the seasonal firefighters for the Federal Government (USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, USF&W) start bringing on or have brought on the engine, helitack, and hand crews for the 2003 Season. To all of you, welcome, and have a safe fire season.

What I want to talk to many of the temporary fire crews about is not about fire safety, the 10 &18, or fire behavior. What I want to discuss with you today is your future in Wildland Fire. There may be a time down the road where you may choose this as your permanent career. What you do now to help yourself outside your on-duty time can help you reach your goals, or at least make things better.

What I am talking about is joining the Federal Wildland Fire Services Association (FWFSA). The website can be found at www.fwfsa.org. I can go into all the benefits of it but you can look those up on the site.

The best thing I want to get across is the support you give will help both the temporary and permanent in the areas of classification and compensation. Your brother Federal Structural Firefighters (Dept. of Defense, Energy, Veterans, Interior, and others) are members of the IAFF and have a small voice in the big picture as to federal issues such as pay, hours, benefits, and legislative matters that affect the federal fire service. By joining the WFWSA you become members of the IAFF and the California Professional Firefighters (CPF) if you are in California.

Its through these two groups that positive change is going to occur. If all of the seasonal and permanent firefighters in the Federal System were to join the power of the Federal Firefighter on federal fire issues, numbers would increase dramatically by bringing the current 4000+ membership in the IAFF upwards of 20,000. That is a significant voice that legislators listen to when it comes to supporting fire bills and appropriations.

What does it cost you? Its a $10.00 membership fee and then $10.00 per pay period (that's less than four meals at McDonalds, or 2 trips to the movies, a tank of gas, or a case of good beer per month). What do you get? Access to the benefits of the IAFF and CPF, representation on legislative matters which will lead to better working condit