"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
July, 2003
Home of the Wildland FireFighter

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7/31 Here's some bare bones sexual harassment/discrimination info for Worried in Alaska from the personnel officer on our forest. 

Sign me 
Wanting to Help
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sexual harassment is illegal under the Civil Rights Law as a form of sex discrimination, so everyone is protected from that regardless of who they work for, whether federal, state, county, local government or private contractor. If the woman or her crew is under contract with a federal agency at any time, there are contractual clauses that cover discrimination. If she works for a state agency - if Alaska is like California and other states - there are state labor boards that have enforcement responsibilities in the areas of employee rights, including sexual harassment, consumption of alcohol on the job and racial discrimination.

Now that I have given the general textbook answer, the real world answer is that there may not be a personnel office where she can make a complaint, and going through a state agency will probably take quite some time, although a process probably exists. If there is not a second level supervisor to report the incidents to or a personnel/human resources/or civil rights person within the organization, she may face the tough choice of deciding whether or not to quit. I know it is not fair, but it's an individual decision either to fight or cut the losses and move on. Sometimes even if you win, you lose.

The other thing that comes to mind as a solution is filing a civil suit. Since the organization she works for is not federal, she does not have to follow our process. I believe that in private industry you can go directly to court. If she wants to do this, I would suggest getting advice from an attorney that specializes in EEO cases or women's rights.

Hope this is helpful...
7/31 To those dispatcher who wrote in commenting on the difficulties of getting Red Cards out on time. All I have to say is AMEN! I have gotten more grief over not getting the red cards out "on time" then anything else---other than contractors calling asking why they haven't been dispatched. All the posts were right on. To the dispatcher or others doing Red Cards, if you are not demanding all red card entries in writing...you should. If you should have an incident (God Forbid) your records will be looked at very closely, if you can't show documentation guess who's hind end will be sticking out? 

WP

WP, I'm surprised you didn't sign that "Want Protection". Ab.
7/31 Thank you for the Engine inspection form. I really did not expect you to go to all the extra efforts for it.

Once again my failure to communicate came through, I did not mean you were whining! The whining I was thinking about was the "world is against me" or at least "my FMO". Those focused on dollars also are tiring! But oh well we sort through the blarney.

I would offer special thanks on two points, First your cutting off the second guessing related to the recent fireline deaths while the investigation is being completed. Second, advising the lady not to endure harassment! 

White Ash!

White Ash, I just had to have some fun with the whining issue, hopefully not at your expense. FYI, we aren't that thin skinned. Regarding the sexual harassment issue, readers have sent in some materials that I am sending to Worried in Alaska. As usual, there's more going on behind the scenes. Ab.
7/31 From Firescribe: Heh

Woodpecker causes wildland fire
A woodpecker stuck its beak where it didn't belong yesterday and set off a fire...
7/31 Wes,

Thanks, I'll stop by on my next trip down south. My flight instruction $$ in the early days flying helped reupholster his little plane. Smitty didn't solo me right away because he said he didn't have a spot on his insurance....When I nailed him on it he got a funny look on his face and said.. "I didn't think you'd get to this point." Ha!...Yea? Guess you jess weren't "thinkin' " then, eh? When flying, he was a solid spirit. We hit a wind sheer above Lake Isabella and did a nose dive toward the lake and he didn't blink an eye. Didn't take the controls away from me.. Just said "Hit it!" It wasn't till we got to the ground that I saw the sweat on his forehead. What a guy!

Tree Guy...you know, your comment on "Whining" caught my eye. Lucky you.

Please be careful with your terminology. I don't really think I've seen anything that amounted to "whining" on this site for about as far back as I've read. The thing is...if you're uncomfortable with the subject matter, disregard it. Labeling it as "whining" is an unacceptable attempt at disqualifying issues brought up for discussion. Just because issues are put on the table, doesn't account for the term you've chosen to use. Actually, we've been labeled "trouble makers" by the land management agencies in our area simply because we've questioned the system. In our opinion, that's no way to address problems. It's a way to keep the status quo in place, regardless of its ineffectiveness. Whining is such a weenie term anyway (Sammi's incredibly apt words). Dealing with tough subjects takes courage and ingenuity...and the tenacity to ask the hard questions and call BS when necessary.

Fire Momma
7/31 I think the Carson Shots out of Penasco NM are losing some
folks who are going back to college…might give ‘em a call. I
bet other shot crews are in similar positions.

Nerd on the Fireline
7/31 Update on Memorial Services for Randall Bonito and Jess Pearce:

Whiteriver, AZ (July 31, 2003) - A memorial service is scheduled for August 2, 2003, at 1:00 P.M., in Whiteriver, AZ to honor fallen fire fighter Randall Bonito Jr., 32, who was killed on July 26th, in a helicopter crash. The memorial service will be held at the Chief Alchesey Activity Center, located next to the high school on Falcon Way, off Arizona Highway 73. A funeral service for Randall Bonito Jr. will follow the memorial service.

Jess Pearce, 50, of Peoria, AZ, the pilot of the aircraft, was also killed in the same crash and will be honored at a memorial scheduled for 10:00 A.M., August 2nd, at the LDS Church, 22034 N. 83rd Avenue in Peoria, Arizona. Two other helitack crewmembers, Kristy Johnson, 30, of Cibecue, AZ and Floyd Walker, 37, of the Seven Mile community of Whiteriver, were injured in the crash and remain hospitalized.

The helitack crew was responding to reports of smoke in the area of Aspen Ridge, on the White Mountain Apache Reservation, when the helicopter went down.

The White Mountain Apache Tribe and the Ft. Apache Agency of the BIA offer their sincerest sympathies to the families of the deceased in this time of grief and sadness. The memorial service for Randall Bonito Jr. is open to the public, and fire fighters and others acquainted with the family are welcome to attend.
7/31 To MOC4546,
Believe me the redcards are a source of great concern to all of us. Here I
am the one who can approve the cards for my FMO. He knows that I am a
stickler for getting things right, no documentation, ie task books when
required, no such position on your redcard. I send out master records for
update the very first part of Jan. I get the info back from the district
FMO's in April, May or even June. Once that is input which can take
forever depending on how many phone calls I have to make to verify with
certs or Taskbooks the new quals, then you wait for the WCT's to come in.
Most districts here do not WCT the first day someone comes back. Yes, I
do my job and I do it well. If you are issued a redcard on this unit,
everything on it is backed with documentation.

When I was dispatching along with doing redcard input, the cards were very
slow getting out. It is not easy to do input with the phones ringing and
resource orders to be filled. I have been doing redcards since 1989, my
own included. It bothers me as much as the folks who need the cards not to
be able to get them out in a timely manner but getting the cards out is not
a priority when there are fires going on. No one comes to help with the
dispatching and other jobs. I have folks who don't even do a WCT til the
end of June or July. Yes, I could issue their cards early but as I
mentioned previously, nothing would be on that card if the WCT had expired.
Believe me that gets someone's attention when their redcard is blank
because they have not done a WCT. I agree it should not have to be this
way but until you get unit managers who think that redcards are important,
things are not going to change. In the past, I have done redcards for
folks walking out the door to a fire assignment just so they would have a
current card. The new system with ROSS makes it imperative that the
redcard input is done but on most units, the people doing the input are
also dispatching. You can't do both in a timely manner.

Again, the refresher is not the kicker in the system. The WCT is. On this
unit, WCTs are given every couple of weeks. If you came on board Monday, a
WCT might not be given until the next week. Even if you did it all the
first day, there is no guarantee that the information could be input right
away. Most folks have other jobs and some of those jobs take higher
priority than redcard input. I have had people who came from another
agency with their quals in hand. Some of those take a good half day to
enter by the time you go through all the experience, training and
taskbooks. It may sound easy from where you are sitting but go sit with
the person who inputs your redcards sometime. See how many phone calls and
interuptions they have.

I must be lucky as my manager knows that I am probably more strict that he
might be. I have well worn copies of the 310-1 and the FS 5100-9.17 close
at hand. I make lots of phone calls and demand lots of documentation. My
guys and gals are not always happy with me but their redcards will hold up
under any microscope. I am sorry that things are not so good on your unit
but you might check to see what can be done about it. I check with my
folks all the time to see what WE can do to improve the system and get the
cards in the hands of the folks who need them before the fire bell goes
off. Good luck.

Old Dispatcher
7/31 Cptn wajax was totally right on. I agree, too much junk is still making it to fires. This year we have national crews and engines getting less work than other less qualified engines and crews. Everybody wants better equipment and better crews but most agencys and dispatchers don't make an effort to utilize the better contractors. When they need equipment and crews, they take anything. How about some pictures, anybody willing to send some pictures in of the junk on fires. We should start a fund for the person who has the best photo of the biggest piece of junk on fire in the last two years.

Fed-up
7/31 Smitty Memorial

They have one at the Kernville Airport where he was an instructor and worked. Smitty was a person I will never forget, as when he taught us Pinch-Hitter we lined up at the end of the run way for take off and he told me to go ahead and fly. Tried to convince him that if my pilot had a heart attack on the runway I would not be trying to takeoff but he made us do it anyway. The addition of Geo-Air Operations [S370] to the FSH 5709.17 will be an ever last memorial to Smitty as far as I am concerned.

Wes Shook
Regional Aviation Training Specialist
Pacific Southwest Region
7/31 Dear Worried-just to let you know there are folks out
here pulling for you in an obviously difficult situation.

Keep your chin up-you are doing the right thing!

Treehggr
7/31 DD, I am a AK-DNR EFF.

Ab, Is it too late to get on a crew down there? if possible I would really love to go out on fire again, not only could I use the rush but some grocery money as well. Do you know of anyone doing last minute hiring for the rest of the season? I would really love to help out where I can,

Worried in Alaska
7/31 AB
I here a lot of talk on the Sub-Standard R-6 resources. and unfortunately a lot of it is true. Crews as well as Engines. As a " Contractor" I have always had a hard time being lumped into a group with such a low bottom end representing "us .That is why I belong to the NWSA as (in my opinion) it represents the largest amount of quality contractors. I am 20 years into private fire fighting and fuels management and have strived for a high level of professionalism and quality work during that time, As has the company that I work for. Every year I see more and more companies being formed and companies growing that should not be on a fire at all.( not to mention in business). This last year has been the worst, I have had people apply for work trained from other companies with sub-standard training ( 2 day FFT-2 school or no pack test). I have had employees quit because of promises from other companies of higher pay and more work only to want to come back ( Sorry I don't think so...) because of lack of consistent work or shady work practices or no work before or after fire season as was promised. This hurts the employee as well as the better companies that loose these people. Although I may be better off in the long run loosing people not loyal enough to stay. I have also heard of companies pack testing 3 miles down hill. I think it is just as easy to do things right than to try to skate around and do a half-assed job of it.

My point is that the Agencies have a responsibility to adhere to the contract specs witch would take care of 90% of the problems brought up on this site, There will always be people willing to do as little as possible to get the money and that is very clear here in R-6. On the other side of this issue is all the high quality companies out there doing above and beyond the norm. ( impressive even to R-5 standards) Also worth mentioning is that Sub-Standard equipment comes from ALL regions, it is just that the R-6 contract is so easy to get on that any second year firefighter could get a foot in the door as a company owner with a contract witch has lead to a boom in the amount of equipment and personnel available in R-6.

Agency Reps. and Field Managers please document the bad and the good as honestly as possible, The jobs of many career firefighters are affected by your comments and actions
And Contracting Officers please weed the lot . It needs it.

Cptnwajax R-6 R-4
7/31 A link to Northern Rockies fire behavior information:

www.fs.fed.us/r1/fire/nrcc/fire_behavior.rtf

NMAirBear
7/31 Another memorial site for the list

In the spring of 1982, two tractor plow operators were working a fire in the
Eau Claire County Forest when a wind switch & increase made attack unsafe.
The lead tractor/plow operator turned back and directed Don Eisberner the
second tractor/plow operator to follow. For some reason this did not happen
and Don Eisberner perished in the fire. A memorial is located near the
site at the junction of Channey Road and Canoe Landing Road in Eau Claire
County Wisconsin. Latitude 44deg 44.473, Longitude 90deg 58.814. The actual
fatality site is a few hundred yards south west of the memorial but I do not
believe there is any marker there. When and if I get a picture I will send
it in.

pulaski

I have some more as well, but am trying to get photos done before I put up the posts. Ab.
7/31 RE: MOC4546 who said recently, " The refresher course for a returning or permanent firefighter can be accomplished in one-day, the certs handed out and submitted the next day, and the cards issued the day after".

In a perfect fire world, this might be possible. However. . .in my world, it is not only impossible, but a wildly imaginative and uninformed statement. Let me explain.

First, consider your unit very lucky to even have a "fire clerk". Our forest has been trying for over 3 years now to create, outreach, and hire one of them for each district. Last I heard the positions were nearing selection, too late for this year, but should be able to help with redcards next year.

It is very common in my area to have the redcards for permanent employees maintained and updated in the dispatch office (the subunits maintain and update the temporary employees). This year we distributed the master redcard documentation to the divisions on each subunit a month earlier than in past years in an effort to get ahead of the game. We set a return due date of 6 weeks to allow enough time for the units to update them. We received one unit's updates within the due date (and a darn fine job it was). One unit's was a week late, another was a month late. The last unit's records were returned to them (garbage in/garbage out) with more explicit instructions as to what was needed. Another two weeks elapsed until the records were returned with the necessary updates.

Since we tried to get the majority of them done early, there were still many training classes producing more employees needing updates for their new OJT positions. At the same time there were many overhead going and coming from the shuttle, chicken, volcano, and other early season incidents who had completed trainee assignments and needed new redcards.

What the heck, a firefighter returns from an assignment/training, gives the taskbook to their supervisor, contact the training officer, get a group advisory panel vote, have the FMO sign off on the new position, get it to the dispatcher responsible for redcard updates, input and print, do it in one day. Sounds good, but imagine. . .

The employee's supervisor is on annual leave, the training officer is at a week long meeting, the FMO is on a Type 1 team assignment, the dispatcher primarily responsible for redcards is on family emergency leave, there is an arsonist running around your district and there have been 30 lightning fires on forest over the last 7 days. You want it when?????

Let's not forget the new MEL hiring with 15-20 new permanent employees each year. The redcard history files must be obtained from the sending unit. Maybe they can't find them, maybe they have to be recreated, then totally updated in the redcard program. Maybe the sending unit is already in fire season or is handling another large all risk emergency. Uh, oh, we just lost four employees to other areas with the last round of hiring, better hurry up and get the redcard data to their new dispatch center.

It can take a half a day to enter a permanent employees full history in the redcard program. Might be done in less time if the phone would quit ringing and the radio traffic would would stop interrupting. Ooops, must pause, there goes the phone again, "whats the override code from the fire I just got back from?" Jeez, let me stop what I'm doing and look that up for you. Wasn't it on the resource order we sent with you? That information is available on the web site, let me give you the url again. Hey, stop buggin me, don't you know I"m trying to get MOC's redcard done in here?

No offense MOC, but there is a much larger perspective and innumerable reasons why you may not be able to get your redcard done in one day, these are just a few. At least they exist in my world, which isn't perfect. But we do keep trying.

ecc1
7/31 Let's level the playing field. enforce the specifications of the
contracts, and look at the evaluations.

ENC
7/31 Ab,

Are there any aviation folks out there who knew Mike "Smitty" Smith from the Seqouia N.F.? He was killed a few years ago in a air to air accident in So. Cal. flying a lead plane. He was my flight instructor, and I'd sure like to know if there is a memorial somewhere in his name.

Fire Momma
7/31 Worried, are you state or private EFF?

DD
7/31 I might have one.

I found my manual from a past fire season, I don;t think its current but
pretty close to the new version, I'm going to find out the outcome of my
conversation with the FMO, I still want to go out on fire but not with that
crew boss. I still don't know if thats possible. If nothing happens to this
turkey I'm going to make sure it does. I'll keep you posted

Worried in Alaska

Please let us know. Ab.
7/30 With all the discussion related to contractors and the R-6 Engine requirements it would be of value to at least link in the information. The National Mobe Guide has rather minimal requirements so one wonders what the issues are in the NW.

Also my thanks for all the extra effort put into this site! With the exception of the whining I find it most useful.

Tree guy <more or less> HAW

Given the inundation of e-mails asking for the Interagency Engine Inspection Requirements, I tried various things and an hour later settled on pdf. You say, "it would be of value to at least link in the information." The whole point is that there is no link until I make the thing for us to link to (an no, I'm not whining) and, yes, I do make pages to link to all the time. Thing is, this form has tables that are just too much work to code and it's too late at night... AND, They don't pay me enuf to do this stuff. (hint hint)

So here's the link to the Engine Inspection stuff in pdf something like 200K.

And you'd better not write in and say "Oh, we knew all that after all". or "What's the BIG deal???"

sign me, Not the Original (You should hear him WHINE during fire season.) Ab. <haw>
7/30 Ab,

We are an EFF crew the only training we got was the pack test and
the refresher course. I don't know about a manual.

Worried in Alaska
7/30 Ab,

After the incident that same day I called the FMO, and told him
everything that happened. I was told it wasn't the first time someone
has complained about him <the squad boss>. I asked him <the FMO>
what he was going to do, he told me if he's bothering you at home and
at work he's probably going to try something out on the fire line, he also
told me he was going to pull his red card. I don't know if it actually
happened, I know the fireline will be safer if it did.

PS. I am still worried about my position on the crew.

Worried in Alaska

Worried, do you have a manual on sexual harassment? Has your crew had training? Ab.
7/30 Dear Abs:
Congressman Richard Pombo has introduced H. R. - 2963 (pdf file) in the House of Representatives. The Bill has 10 co-sponsors to start. Please post this on "THEY SAID".

We need Wildland Firefighters to write or e-mail their Congressional Representative and seek their support. FWFSA will contact the Representatives we met in Washington DC during the IAFF Lobby week, seek their support. We need "Grassroots" contact by Firefighters, Family and friends. Portal to Portal will start one pay period after the enactment of the Bill. The 108th second session starts the first week of September. So........ We ask folks to let Congress hear the voices of Wildland Firefighters, WRITE or CALL your Congressional Representative.

Mike Preasmeyer
President - FWFSA

Good work by FWFSA. Ab.
7/30 Reference unqualified R6 resources

Yes, this has pretty much gotten to be an epidemic. It is not uncommon to have bad engines hoisted from division to division in an effort to get them out from under some DIVS who sees how badly they are doing. It is pretty rare they ever get sent off the fire, though.

Unfortunately, this problem is also common with fire district engines in both states as well. In the past few seasons I've had engines show up with the crews in bunkers and jeans; with no fire shelters; with no 1 1/2" hose; and even with no hose except a booster reel.

What makes that worse has been that some of those fire district engines had crews on portal-to-portal pay. One result of that has been a shift to increase the use of contract engines, even in structure protection situations. I have worked with contract engines that are equipped and trained for structure protection, but they were the exception, and they usually advertised their services accordingly. Most contract engines (in R6 at least) have no business in a structure protection environment.

Unlike in R5, it is already rare to get Type 1, 2 or 3 engines on a structure protection assignment. Most resources that I have assigned to me on these assignments have been type 6 engines.

This problem is cascading. Now, some of the fire districts are withdrawing their resources because they are not getting called up. In some cases, fire districts are reducing their engines. This, along with the recent reductions in State resources in the region means that there is a significant decrease in local protection.

Until the region gets off its fanny and starts asking for quality, and starts assigning resources based on their capabilities, the problem is only going to get worse.

Islander
7/30 To Old Dispatcher,

In reply to the Red Card delays, most your information is correct. If you are one of the ones who inputs the data, prints the cards, and stands over the FMO with a baseball bat to insure that the cards are signed, then God Bless You!! You are doing your job.

Permanent Firefighters have no excuse not to have their most current Red Card Info ready to go before the season, and returning Seasonal Firefighters should have their info ready to go for processing either before or when they start with the hiring agency. I understand that there are updates and verifications that need to be done.

Perhaps in your area your forest/district/park/reservation is diligent in getting that document ready to go. I based my opinion on the expectation that what happens here is what happens in most areas. The comment I made regarding the Red Card system is what I have experienced from 1991 to today. I work in the federal system and still get redcarded. My fire information and updates are turned in to the FMO clerk in April and regularly do not get processed and cards issued until July-August, or until an assignment comes along and they copy last year's card without the updates other than the basic ones.

Yes, this process takes time. Yes, this process is dependant on record keeping, updates on fires, assignment books, training classes, and other things. Does delaying issuing of the red card affect response ability? Absolutely. Should it have to be this way? Absolutely NOT!!!

The refresher course for a returning or permanent firefighter can be accomplished in one-day, the certs handed out and submitted the next day, and the cards issued the day after. New firefighters have to go through 110/130/190 even if they have it from somewhere else.

I have talked with the fire clerks over time. The answer is the same in most places: "We have to wait until the FMO looks over the red card info before we print the cards, and we can't issue them until he signs them." Most of the time its not the clerk's fault, but the FMOs.

I have been a Fed Firefighter since the late 1980's, and even with all the new requirements for FS/BLM/NPS/USF&W red card issuance it still takes too long to get the cards issued.

I'm sure you, Old Dispatcher, have done the things you need to do to get your red cards issued. But it is not happening uniformally.

MOC4546

So you gonna ride your FMO? Ab.
7/30 AB:

Need to pass on to the wildland fire community the untimely passing of
Pat Cooney on 7/30; losing the battle with cancer. Pat, a long time Forest
Service fireman retired from the Angeles National Forest and was currently
the Deputy Director, Fire and Rescue, California Office of Emergency
Services. The fire service will miss his leadership, his training ability, his
"Irish wit" but most of all, his dedication and friendship to all, from Chiefs
to the "drag Mcleods" in the wildland community.

God speed, Patrick! Our prayers are with Terri, his wife, and kids Mike
and Colleen.

Arrangements are still pending, but will pass along when finalize. Same
with address for cards.

djchief

Sorry to hear that. Please do pass along information. Ab.
7/30 Worried.....

#1 you need to get a calendar and make notes on the dates he has made remarks or gestures that were uncomfortable for you. Also, keep a journal writing dates and times and quotes of what was said.

Any witnesses? Keep track. If you do decide later to do something formal about this jerk you will definitely need documentation. You need to make your documentation in a spiral type note book. Not the 3ring kind. It has to be one you cannot add pages to later.

Is this the person that would be in charge of your crew if you went out? #1 question will be,,,,if you were afraid of him why did you go back out with him.....If you want to take this private I am ok with that.....

sammi

The crew hasn't been back out yet. Ab.
7/30 Dear Worried-

Remember sexual harassment training? Get your manual out,
reread it, and follow the process it gives you. You should have
a contact in Human Resources who can help you with the situation.
Above all, document everything: places, times, comments/actions,
and possible witnesses.

Good luck.
Treehggr
7/30 Reply to Nerd on the Fireline Taos Encebado Fire

Though I appreciate the comment on "my" air show, thanks is more appropriate
to Air Attacks Lorene Guffey and Gary Helsel, and the lead aircraft,
helicopter, and tanker pilots who did such a good job. They're the ones
doing the hard work - I'm just a "juice-suckin' Air Ops" who sits in his
lawn chair all day (grin).

It's pretty rare that I walk away from a fire with the strong feeling that
we did some good out there with the air show and that the $$$ were
well-spent, but Encebado was one of those times.

Regards,
Hugh
7/30 For Rocky Mountain

www.millsimpressions.com/

Hickman
7/30 Hugh Carson;

I was sitting on Spider Road with an engine the first night and second day of Encebado, and on-and-off after that…a bunch of my very good friends were on the saw team back up Taos Canyon. Your airshow kept my life (and theirs) from getting very interesting very fast. Thanks.

If you haven’t seen them already, check the pics I sent Ab of the Ericksson Skycrane and the DC-4 that got peeled off to slam a little roadside fire northeast of Taos that started running on us.

Nerd on the Fireline

Did I post those? If not, they probably went down when my computer crashed last week. If so, please resend. Ab.
7/30 Dear Ab/s could you post this:

I am trying to find out if anyone has the website for the company
that was making the Columbia Shuttle Recovery T-Shirts that were
sold at the Palestine Branch.

Rocky Mountain
7/30 Region 6 contract specs for Engine Tender Agreements

Here's the Engine Inspection form (shows minimum requirements) we as region 6 contractors must adhere to if we wish to obtain an Emergency Equipment Rental Agreement for the season, and be able to be dispatched on fires. We also have to provide proof of compliance with 310-1 for qualifications certification (although I know there has been troubles with some bad contractors faking certifications in the past). If anybody out there gets in a contract engine that doesn't meet the "Required Standards" as set forth in the agreement (which every Engine Boss should have a copy of in their briefcase when arriving at the incident), then by all means please send those engines home, and do all you can to inform both the dispatching home unit, and the regional center in Portland of the lack of compliance.

It's hard enough to try to stay competitive and provide quality equipment and services, in this line of work when you're competing with bids against the reputable contractors, without us having to try to compete with "Joe Local" that just grabbed a tank that's been laying out in his field for 20 years, and threw it together at the last minute with a $200 used sump pump, and calls it an engine. I can't speak for all R-6 contractors, but I do know and have met a lot of other contractors here in Oregon, (most of those are also NWSA Members) that all share the same concerns as those agency people in other regions have expressed in here, but until Portland gets serious about enforcing the requirements, even on the small local fires, it's difficult for legitimate companies to validate spending upwards of $70,000/engine (with no "guarantee" of financial return) to set up what we all want to see on fires. A lot of contractors are still doing it even though their equipment may be near the last called to go to work, because they rightfully feel that piece of equipment that far exceeds the minimum standards when added to the extra training and experience of their engine bosses justifies asking for a little higher rate than the guys that just became a firefighter/engine boss/contractor last week are charging.

John

I'm not going to code the attachment at this time. If you want to see it, e-mail and I'll send it. Ab.
7/30 Ab,

I have to agree with Norcal Tom, unqualified and under equipped contract engines continue to come into Regions 4 and 5 from Oregon and Washington states. It appears that these states' Federal inspectors don't follow the NWCG guidelines for engines and crews. Additional under-qualified contract equipment is also being signed-up by the Central Nevada Winnemucca BLM center. Last week we worked with several contractors from that part of Nevada that were very sub-standard. Two so-called engines from there had only 5-horsepower low-pressure trash pumps with non-baffled tanks, no hose reels and these engines could only carry 100 gallons of water so as not to over-load their trucks! We have strived to raise the standards of vendor owned equipment and crews but if this sub-standard equipment is allowed to continue to operate, it makes the whole private sector look bad.

A National standard for contract equipment needs to be adhered to, if Joe Local can't qualify, don't sign them up. If you are a Ground Support Leader type, demob this junk and document the action.

Deep Woods
7/30 Firehorse wrote:

We had some problems with contractors in '94 that continued to show up at each fire the team had that year because we failed to document poor equipment/performance. Once we got our act together, they never made another fire....Even when they went to the politicians because we were "Picking" on them, our documentation stood the test. "Document, document, document". You folks on the fires have to hold the contractors to the contract and not cut them any slack. Believe me when I say this is what the good contractors want also!

FireMomma wrote:

There were fallers who were demobbed for various reasons last year on the Biscuit West, only to show up the next day on the Biscuit East. All they had to do was walk-in and say they were available and (this is key) say they'd just been demobbed from another fire. The reason this trick works is because the purchasing person then "assumes" the folks on the other incident did their job right and consider the contractor standing in front of them a valuable resource. (This isn't a discussion on firechasing...that's WHOLE different, complicated subject...bottom line...we don't fire chase...but we also sit waiting for assignments longer than those who do...yes...still).

Some of the "violations" included "getting intentionally lost" on the fire (thereby not having to work). You know...big fire...not enough faller bosses. Who's gonna know? Here's a good one...how about shoving and threatening your falling boss?

Yes, the "good contractors" certainly want their competitors held to the same standards they are. (I also second FireMom's suggestion you check out www.nwsa.net.) But I will also say, Firehorse, the "safety" and "quality" issue extends beyond the contractor's realm as well. We are concerned about the experience level of some of the agency falling bosses overseeing hazard tree felling operations on fires. There needs to be internal agency quality control in this area. Individuals who do not have experience working around a logging operation, or with commercial fallers don't have the same understanding as say, an agency person who has been a sale administrator. That administrator has a more accurate understanding of what can and can't be done. Also, what should or shouldn't be done. We are getting our senior fallers moving through the SRB FelB qualification path to address this concern....Just some thoughts on quality and safety.

Helicopter pilot Randall Harmon's memorial was held yesterday in Grants Pass, Oregon. He is the Superior Helicopter pilot who died in Washington. He's being laid to rest in Lakeview Thursday.

Fire Momma
7/30 I was recently the Air Ops Director on the Encebado Fire a mile from Taos Pueblo. We had 11 helicopters (5 of which were Type 1) as well as a Portable Helicopter Base right at the base of the fire. I ordered the 5 Type 1 helicopters and the PHB based upon the national and regional emphasis on maintaining large fixed-wing airtankers for initial attack.

That policy is all well and good but a lot of folks seem to be ignoring the fact that on large fires there are times and situations (for example, on the ridge overlooking Taos Canyon, or as it was heading toward Taos Pueblo 3 days in a row) where lots of retardant line needs to be built quickly - to say nothing of hot-spotting - in order to support the ground crews who were working building hand and dozer line along the ridge above Taos Canyon and near the Pueblo.

Type 1 Helicopters, as good as they are (and they did an absolutely outstanding job) are not necessarily the best tool for this type of job and this situation. Fortunately the R-3 MAC and SWICC recognized this need, and were very supportive in furnishing large airtankers when we needed them. Rumor has it, though, that R-3 USFS is taking heat from higher up for their relatively limited use of fixed-wing tankers this season. That indicates to me a failure to recognize the age-old saying "the right tool at the right time in the right situation." It might behoove those folks to get out in the (real) field (not on quickie jaunts around the region during fire busts) and spend a day in the life of an Air Ops, or a day in the life of my boss the Ops Chief, or better yet, in the airplane for 4 hours with the Air Attack, on one of these rip-roarers on the urban interface.

If that were to happen, we might see a more measured and realistic approach to the airtanker issue. It's time the USFS and other wildfire agencies bit the bullet, and stopped trying to get along on a (relatively) shoestring budget (for which they were severely criticized by the independent Blue ribbon Panel Report that looked into the management and operations of the airtanker fleet.)

In short, management needs to advocate to Congress that an airtanker specifically designed to drop retardant at low level in high density altitudes in steep terrain be funded and built. And let's not play any games while we're at it by trying to task the military to do fixed-wing retardant job when there are a couple of hundred commercial airtanker pilots with more than enough skill and training to do it.

P.S. Nothing against the fine folks that fly the MAFFS, but the day I need to build two miles of retardant line supporting handline along a ridge above a major town or city and am told to use MAFFS because commercial ATs are being held sitting on the ground awaiting IA is the day I order 3-4 times as many Type 1 Helicopters to do that job. Expensive? Yes. The right tool for the job? No. Catch-22.

Regards,
Hugh Carson
7/30 Been dig'n for sometime and have found these two links for "Unable to Fill". One Southern Region and one for Eastern Great Basin. Southern area is not as active as the Great Basin and neither is updated daily.

Did have a couple of others, but links have been removed. Maybe others can fill in some blanks.

Hickman
www.southernregion.fs.fed.us/sacc/Unable%20to%20Fill%20List/UnabletoFillweb.pdf pdf file
www.blm.gov/utah/egbcc/Reports/UTF.html

Thanks Hickman. Ab.
7/30 Greetings all,

The August issue of "Smithsonian" magazine has an interesting article about

U.S. officials are clashing with environmentalists over how
best to reduce the risk of catastrophic blazes

www.smithsonianmag.si.edu

Shep
7/30 Ab,

Ever since I came back from the Sand Creek incident in Delta, my squad boss has not left me alone, he keeps asking me out and I keep turning him down. Today he came into my place of business drunk asked me out again and told me if I didn't I wouldn't be going out on the next fire. He also said he didn't want to integrate his crew (99% native alaskan except for myself) he continued to say things like "I have 2 beaytiful native women to take your place." I don't know about you but that sounds to me like discrimination. Also while we were on the fire line I could smell alcohol on some of the guys .

worried in Alaska

Sounds like more than discrimination, sounds more like harassment. Did you report it to his supervisor or take any other steps? Ab.
7/29

News Release
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Ft. Apache Agency

For more information contact: Incident Information at 928-338-1466

Whiteriver, AZ (July 29, 2003) – Memorial funds have been established for the firefighter and pilot who died in Saturday’s tragic helicopter crash on the White Mountain Apache Reservation near Whiteriver, Arizona.

Helitack crewmember Randall Bonito, Jr., 32, leaves behind a wife and two sons. Pilot Jess Pearce, 50, whose wife died 18 months ago, leaves behind two daughters.

The 100 Club has established accounts for the Bonito and Pearce families. Those wishing to make donations can do so through the Arizona Federal Credit Union (either online or at any branch). Checks can be mailed to the 100 Club, 5151 N. 19th Ave., Suite 204, Phoenix AZ 85015. Please indicate which account the donation should be directed to.

Randall Bonito, Jr. – Account 468905
Jess Pearce – Account 468906
7/29 Ab requested this information from a contributor with access to fire stats. Thanks SoCal CDF.

The Farewell fire is part of the Fawn Peak Complex, located 13 miles NW of Winthrop, WA.

Yesterday at 5PM the fire was 69,962 acres
Today it's 70,296 acres.

Fuels/Materials Involved: 10 Timber (litter and understory)
FUEL MODELS 8 AND 10. Heavy timber and Sub Alpine-Fir, standing and down red and dead timber.

Today's observed fire behavior:
Sustained crowning runs in heavy fuels on multiple fire fronts in the north and northwest portions of the fire.

Significant events today:
Significant fire activity today to the north. The fire has spread into the Ashnola drainage and Andrews Pass area. All helicopters are being utilized in containment and suppression operations. A portable dip site is now operational in Canada and supporting helicopter operations.

Remarks:
Zone 1 is being managed by WA IMT 5 (Furlong/Gormley). Zone 2 is being managed by PNW IMT 3 (Anderson).
Total Personnel Zone 1: 357
Total Personnel Zone 2: 829
Total = 1,186
7/29 The Farewell fire blewup "big time" this after noon, no details
yet. Column was estimated at 40 to 50 thousand feet, visible
as far away as Seattle. Dispatch centers around the state had
the phone ringing off the hook for about an hour.

WA-DISP
7/29 Hi Ab,

Can anyone document the people who were killed by the bear in "misc 2" photos? What a huge animal!

There are big black bears even here in southern California - some are estimated to be over 600 pounds by California Fish and Game. A friend of mine was rock climbing in the "Needles" area north of Lake Isabella, CA two weeks ago and had a big bear going through camp. Bear safety is always something to look out for, even in fire camps.

I was on the Ackerson Complex near Yosemite as a Logistics Receiving and Distribution Manager back in 1996. I wondered, "what the heck is a request for a wrist rocket slingshot for, and who needs pepper spray." It turned out there was a pesky bear that kept hanging around that needed discouragement.

I don't think I'd care to sting the hindquarters of a brownie like the one in the picture with a pea-sized rock.

TDB

TDB, that's a grizzly. There was more discussion on theysaid. Ok, Ab just found it. Take a look at the discussion on the archives for June, on 6/18. This story is an urban legend, but kinda true.
7/29 Mollysboy,

I'll go with ya!!!! If you could get me some more info on who's putting crews together to go over there, I would love to go and help out.

AK
7/29 We ain't in this alone!

The news tonite tells of 4 folks dying in France from fires in the hills above the French Riviera. 30 arson-caused fires caused lots of problems, including the damage or destruction of 60 homes, and 21000 acres burned; nearly 20,000 people were evacuated. Last week, another fire in the same area burned 24,710 acres. President Jacques Chirac promised that "the guilty will be sought out with extreme vigor" and "sanctions will be of an extraordinary severity."

Anybody not committed to US or Canadian fires interested in going to the Riviera to help out??

Mollysboy
7/29 Time to speak up on the contractor issue.

Prior to retirement I was heavily involved with contractors in every facet of suppression. From preseason inspection to the fireline arena. The only way I have found that poor contractors make it to the fire is when the agencies do not do their job! When contractors are passed on inspections or not kicked off a fire with a poor performance rating following them home, it is the agencies fault. We had some problems with contractors in '94 that continued to show up at each fire the team had that year because we failed to document poor equipment/performance. Once we got our act together, they never made another fire. Even when they went to the politicians because we were "Picking" on them, our documentation stood the test. "Document, document, document". You folks on the fires have to hold the contractors to the contract and not cut them any slack. Believe me when I say this is what the good contractors want also!

The cream will rise to the top and the poor performers will drop by the wayside. But; only if you do your job. Over the years I have seen some contractors that were every bit as good as the agency folks. Alot of you don't want to hear that but the truth hurts sometimes. (Remember, alot of the contractors are ex-agency folks.)

As far as false documentation, don't have an answer for that one. We all knew that was going to happen at some point. Let's just pray it does not get anyone killed. (Too many of those already this year!)

Firehorse
7/29 Just thought I'd pass this on. Here is the website for the Robert
Fire in Montana which has forced evacuations and is burning into
Glacier National Park.

http://akteam.ak.blm.gov/

AMM

Thanks, we haven't completely updated the fires 2003 page. Ab.
7/29 Is there a place on the web to see what resources are being requested??? We're hearing that there are many orders not being filled, yet none of our overhead people have been sent out.

firecampbug
7/29 Better Link to Memorial Page for National Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, MD.

www.usfa.fema.gov/inside-usfa/ffmem.shtm

Hickman
7/29 NorCal Tom,

Not sure if your inclusion of me in your comments to Fire Momma was a
compliment or not.....But I'm gonna take it that way. Lucky for you.

FirenWater
7/29 What this all about?

RR
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revised: 4/19/2002

FEDERAL FIRE FIGHTERS PRESUMPTIVE LAW
BACKGROUND

Fire fighters are exposed on a daily basis to stress, smoke, heat, and various toxic substances. As a result, fire fighters are far more likely to contract heart disease, lung disease and cancer than other workers. And as fire fighters increasingly assume the role of the nation’s leading providers of emergency medical services, they are also exposed to infectious diseases. Heart disease, lung disease, cancer and infectious disease are now among the leading causes of death and disability for fire fighters, and numerous studies have found that these illnesses are occupational hazards of fire fighting.

In recognition of this linkage, many states have enacted “presumptive disability” laws, which state that a cardiovascular disease, certain cancers and infectious diseases are presumed to be job related for purposes of workers compensation and disability retirement unless the fire fighter’s employer can prove otherwise. No such law covers fire fighters employed by the federal government.

ETC.
put out by the International Association of Fire Fighters, AFL-CIO, CLC
7/29 Ahh now, NorCalTom,

At one time I was a very nice woman. But, being nice goes about as far as I can spit when it comes to these issues. And though I can climb big tree and shoot extremely straight with my rifle, I never learned to spit well. But, don't feel bad, you're not the first to call me a PitBull.

Still, rather than personality descriptors, I'd much prefer to stick to the point....safety and how to attain it. Fair enough?

Also, I've received quite a few inquiries from California fallers. There are some excellent people, and then...well...let's just say "substandard contract resources" are not an Oregon-specific problem. The issue remains, there is no system in place to accurately assess the background and qualifications of contract fallers. So, guess there in lies the challenge, eh?

Cheers!
Fire Momma
7/29 LCES has been stressed many a time, I have to say it again with new
emphasis...

We need extreme vigilance especially when we decide to go after
a fire under extreme fire weather episodes. Need to rethink LCES
- not just having one escape route or safety zone - but multiple options.
My thought is: make sure you can get out if you go in. If you don't have
more than one visible escape route or safety zone - carefully think about
the potential effects that could occur under severe fire weather conditions
in areas of severely dry fuels - and limited options for ingress and
egress.

Be Safe,
SilknLines

Hear, hear. Ab.
7/29 Good news. I got to reading the USFS Accident Investigation Guide (interesting) and have had a number of requests for it, so I posted it to our wildlandfire.com. Thanks for sending it Hugh.

It's really large - a 3200 K pdf, in Adobe Acrobat, 102 pages. You can link to it from the docs worth reading page and the site map if you want to find it later. If you have trouble downloading it, try doing it at 0200 or 0300 hrs when internet traffic is low.

I updated the Jobs Page as well as the Series 462 and Series 455 pages.

Ab.
7/29 Hey Ab!

Here is the latest website for the Washington State Fawn Complex that has the Farewell fire in it.

www.fawnpeak.com

DeeDee

Thanks for that. Added it to the Fires 2003 list. Ab.
7/29 Now I see why they gave you the name Fire Momma. Maybe it should have been Fire PitBull with a chainsaw in her back pocket for the really recalcitrant combatants...

Re the checkpoints. Naw not like the checkpoints for the fruits... and veggies, more like ... Well, lets put it this way. I'd prefer having ...god... checking the quals of those contract crews, seeing through whatever the possible shil-sham, and then passing the good ones on to dispatch. But if I can't have that, I kind of imagined a St Peter figure at the border (images of Rio de Genero, was that St Peter? maybe not, but towering and larger than life) anyway, playing the same role he does at the pearly gates and letting them through or not. Hmmm, kind of sounds like a R5 vision, doesn' tit? Oh well, you could say I have R5 standards.

When FirenWater retires we could put her up there. She and Fire PitBull Momma are reformed from the same mold with the same eye to safety (and a similar chainsaw in their back pockets for them what don't measure up).

Now Fire Momma see what you've done to this professssssional theysaid site???

NorCal Tom
7/29 NorCalTom

A California checkpoint? Kinda like the one where they ask you if you have any fruit? ; ) You knooooow how effective that one is.

In our mind, dealing with quality and professionalism should take place BEFORE private contractors are issued contracts. But, as you remember from my tirade before, there is much "to do" about the "resource demands" of administering this kind of quality control by agency contracting staff. I realize this level of interception takes a significant up front commitment in time and financial resources... both by contractors and agencies. I've even heard the "supply and demand" argument from the agency side... "Well, we have so many of you (fallers), if we come across a bad one, we just get rid of them."

Whaaaat? What does that say about the quality of contract fallers you fire managers are getting when you order private contract resources?

On the ground, the issue of safety doesn't come in the form of "numbers" but in ability and wisdom. That's why I like to see old fallers knocking on my door. They're old because they're alive. They're alive because they're either really good or damn lucky. Then I send my fallers out in the field with some young buck who's making the SAME wage rate. The experienced fallers are quickly identified and for the most part are asked to do the more dangerous, technical falling. As we talk to the fire managers, they think developing regional contracts is a sound way to distinguish quality. It's also a way to give these fallers the higher wage rate they deserve.

Jason, I'm still fuming about your response...you'd just kick them off the fire? Sir, I dare say you'd feel so fortunate to have a faller who actually knew what they were doing, that's most likely the last thing you would REALLY do. Do you bring rocks to throw at the tree in times like that...or perhaps explosives? I've seen that too. By golly...I'd also like to see you stand side by side with that faller and assist him through that scenario. You know what the BIA crew did? Point and run. Literally.

I need to go take a walk.

The Umpqua - the Kelfay Fire is on the border of the Willamette and the Umpqua. When I sent fallers last evening it was approximately 400 acres. Don't have a report of the kind of fuel its burning in.

Fire Momma

You know, I'm back from my walk and I read back over stuff...again...(yes, with three phones and a pager beside me) and I realize I'm using way more words than necessary...

Falling hazard trees on fires in dangerous work. It is made even more dangerous by those who mistakenly think they have the ability to do the job. The increased danger compromises the already slim safety corridor hazard tree fallers work in when they have to finish someone else's hack job.

Instead of haggling over where they should have put the wedges, or whether or not jacks should have come into play, what fire managers need to do is look into the eyes (I've found this an incredibly effective communication tool) of the contracting officers on your regions and say you want faller background and skill verification completed before the faller is sent to you to work on your firefighting team. (Ab's bold) Demand it. Because what we're hearing from the CO agency folks is that "there really isn't a problem here."

After a glass of oatmeal stout I lay my head on the table and think..."Do these people actually talk to one another?"

Oh yea, I did come up with a way to take down that tree, Jason...(You know, the five foot Doug Fir with "holding" wood fiber the size of a man's thigh??) Let's bring in that helicopter and let the prop wash flip it to the ground. No? Too expensive? Too dangerous? Too sloppy?

Here's something better...let an experienced faller take it down right the first time.

My source says Fuels: 8 - closed timber litter - hemlock, lodgepole pine, grouse, huckleberry. Ab.
7/29 From Firescribe:

AZ Helicopter crash victims identified
www.azdailysun.com

NTSB begins WA helicopter crash investigation
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com

Be safe.
7/29 Ab,

I worked on the Salmon-Challis National forest up until the 15th of June and help teach several courses in May. I had one of the fallen in one of my classes. I did not know him well, but his death has had more of an effect on me than previous firefighter deaths. Perhaps it is because they were on the same forest as me, or because I had a hand in his training. I am sure that after the investigation, there will be plenty of blame to go around, but those two are still dead. We will see the same lessons taught there as were taught on previous fatalities, the agencies will impose more rules to protect us, and we will have more fatalities in the future.

At this point, I do not believe that the FS or any other agency can do any more than what is already being done, but I do think that we as individual firefighters can do more to pass the trade on to the younger ones. That means possibly getting more involved with fire schools, teaching other courses, and really making the annual refresher relevant to the location you are in.

My prayers are with the family of the fallen and with the Indianola Helitack

Domaque
7/29 Norcal Tom:

As a member of one of the largest private sector Associations in the US, I am too concerned that you get some good and some not so good. We are just as flustrated with the Pacific NW system as you are. In their rush to provide the cheapest, closest resource and with only one typing on the contracts, even the dispatchers have no choice but to send cheapest closest and they don't know the quality. Under this contract anyone can bid and if they meet basic minimums they can get a contract. All we can hope is that you the people on the ground WILL send them home if they don't meet requirements or your needs. That is the only way to police the contract. If the agency people keep letting them stay on the line and work, the private sector industry will continue to spiral. And keep in mind not because those of us in the industry to see it as an industry don't care, we do and we have fought long and hard for the agencies to beef up the contract, compliance and training in the field for agency personnel on use of the contract. We are not against you, we want to work as a cooperator with you, but at this time you hold the key to making it work for both of us.

If you want to visit our website and see what the industry is trying to do for itself and you, visit us at www.nwsa.net.

Firemom

There's a link on the Classifieds page as well for the National Wildfire Suppression Association. Ab.
7/29 Jason,

I've asked Ab to forward you my contact information. I'd be happy to talk to you further about the situation and the jacks and certainly would like to see what you would have done...after the fact...which is certainly when all the coffee table cowboys have all the answers.

Fire Momma
7/29 Please see the attached 72-hour final report on the Cramer fire fatalities.

The Safety Report people.

I posted this yesterday but am moving it forward so people don't miss it. I considered cutting and pasting it into theysaid, but it is a bit long, so here's the link again. Ab.
7/29 Gordon,

For clarification, we didn't have the problem with a faller crew but
with some private engine crews. And Fire Momma, I'm glad you
reread my post. We do have good contract crews that come to
NorCal, but we're also getting some not-so-good. Why is that?
The Oregon people need to be more vigilant in who they send.
Maybe we need a checkpoint at the CA border to catch the unfit
early on and turn them toward home.

My two cents worth. More like a buck...

NorCal Tom
7/29 Foxfire,,,,,,sorry if my message was mis-leading. We all agree bottom line....Ff safety is a personal issue and responsibility and if they choose to do the task assigned realizing how dangerous it is then they are to blame. But "also" to blame is the leader of these young inexperienced people.

Apparently in trying to disguise our location and identity I did not make myself clear. It was not particularity my sons that chose to do the assignments when the "leaving the shelters and the fire balls issue came up". As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter if it is my son or yours, they need a lot of good experience and good role models to lead them so they will become strong, activists for safety.

My husband and our young FF have all been put in the position of going ahead with the team or standing there and saying "nope, not me". That is a tough call for anyone. Note: I did not say what they chose.

Sammi
7/28 A new website geared specifically for competitive sourcing at Interior, especially in the Forest Service, is at

http://home.centurytel.net/BehindTheCurtain/. The site gives good nuts and bolts information for folks to use in writing letters to Congress, etc. A lot of folks have been doing this, and as a result Congress is looking at banning new competitive sourcing in Interior until they can take a good, hard look at the program. But you can bet some heavy hitters will be pushing Congress to keep the outsourcing train running full speed ahead. We cannot be heard if we do not speak up.

-- Union guy
7/28 What???

Fire momma,

I am a Felling Boss and have worked in the woods with timber companies. I have used jacks. Any faller that uses jacks on a tree that has no holding wood is absolutely insane. If I saw someone use jacks in that manner I would have them kicked off the project. Jacks have their use, but jacking snags or rotten trees is just asking for trouble. Jacks in conjunction with wedges are used for felling trees with backlean etc. They must have holding wood or they don't work, ask any faller that has accidentally "Jacked" a tree off its stump.

Jason
7/28 I have to disagree with you that firefighter safety is a personal responsibility, it is everyones job to watch each others back, and make sure everyone makes it home to their familys in 1 piece. I am my brothers keeper, so should you be.

The job we do is a dangerous one, I have said no to the powers that be many times and never been pressured to do something that I was not comfortable doing, and I still have a red card.

AK

Being responsible for your own safety and having members of the crew watching out for each other can and should occur at the same time, AK. That's part of what fostering crew cohesion is about. No one would disagree with that. Most people seem to be saying that bottom line is that firefighters need to be responsible for themselves. Failure to do so would be the biggest hole in the swiss cheese. Ab.
7/28 What fire is on the Umpqua (Or) right now? It looked like it
was cookin' this afternoon. Anyone have any info?

TIMD

What part of the Umpqua? Is that only a looooong river? No Oregon county by that name... Must mean the NF? Just asked around. Someone said there was a torchin' 400 acre fire in Douglas Co., Toketee-Lomolo Lake area. Kelsay Complex. That the one? Ab.
7/28 Good news.

Sources say the Investigation Team will use the HFACS/Swiss Cheese Model,
which Tony Kern and others have incorporated into the new USFS Accident
Investigation Guide. I'm confident that with this tool they'll do a good
job. Especially with knowledgeable folks like George Jackson on the team.

I've attached the Investigation Guide in Acrobat. Abs, you might post this
Guide if anyone's interested.

Regards,
Hugh

It's really large (a 3200 K pdf, 102 pages). Here it is and you can link to it from the docs worth reading page and the site map. If you have trouble downloading it, try doing it at 0200 or 0300 hrs when internet traffic is low. Ab.
7/28 I agree with NorCal Tom, and want to emphasize that applies to everyone, not just fallers. It's OK to turn down an assignment if you are not comfortable. It does not reflect poorly on your professionalism, it enhances it.

A few examples: No one disputes medical doctors are true professionals. Doctors frequently refer patients to other doctors if the patient is outside their area of expertise. No one thinks less of doctors because of it. In fact, we are glad they put the welfare of the patient ahead of personal ego or income. Lawyers are the same. Clients are always referred to another attorney if the situation is better suited to another's skills. This is not considered unprofessional.

It is only in the last few years we have developed the culture where line assignments can be refused without fear of retribution (well, mostly). That attitude must be given to all functions, fallers, truck drivers, everyone.

Professionalism is knowing the limit to your skills and abilities and putting safety and the needs of the incident ahead of fear of saying no.

IT'S OK TO SAY NO!
Gordon Niner
7/28 During an initial attack of a 30 acre brush fire near Silver City, NV
a fire truck stalled and was burned over during the initial attack.
Fortunately all members of the crew were able to get to a safe zone
and are ok.

www.krnv.com

Skyeblue
7/28 The one point I would make is that we blame people for making mistakes that
any of us could of made given the situation. We throw the 10 and 18 at the
people who made a decision. Without why and what to support that, how are
we suppose to learn and improve. It is my belief that in most
circumstances people made mistakes in judgment when they thought they were in
compliance with the ten and 18. Without knowing what were they seeing or
thinking, how can we use that info to improve! Well that is enough from me.
Take care and be safe and have fun.

Knowing both Leslie Andersen and George Jackson and having discussed
other fire investigations with them, I believe they will do a good job. I know
i discussed the swiss cheese model with George a few days before the
tragedy happened -- in regard to another fire.

Big smooth
7/28 Ab,

The memorial at the Grand Junction Air Center is inside of a restricted
security zone for Walker Field Airport. If it is included in a scavenger
hunt through geocaching.com, well I could see some major issues that might
develop.

Tim

Well, please go tell them to move it outside. Ab.
7/28 Hi Ab,

This is my first message to you but MOC4546 obviously does not
understand REDCARD. I input data for over 300 redcards. It may be simple
from where he is sitting but sit in my chair. REDCARD is driven by
documentation. The main reason folks are not given a redcard the day they
come on board is that they have not had their WCT or fire refresher. You
can get your redcard but without a valid WCT, NOTHING that requires a WCT
test will appear on your card. Once the information is received and is
input, the cards come out. Believe me, we who do the data input want those
cards out ASAP also but sometimes the folks getting the card are more
concerned about bitching than doing what it takes to get the card. I
suggest that MOC4546 check with the person doing the cards to see why they
are not out as quickly as he thinks they should be. There are lots of
reasons, not excuses, good reasons.

/s/ Old Dispatcher

Welcome, Old Dispatcher. Thanks for educating us to the Redcard process from your perspective. Ab.
7/28 NorCalTom

Safety has never been, nor is it now, a contractor-specific concern. While instances of flagrant violations have surfaced - primarily because of the mushrooming fire suppression industry - it is inappropriate to put the "safety violation" issue so squarely in the contractor's lap.

As I try to do whenever I step forward to make a point, I will give you glaring examples...all in the 2002 fire season.

1) Two of our fallers were working on a project fire and the incident was winding down. The fallers were directed to cut hazard trees, not many, and quite a distance from each other. The falling boss assigned to this team said he was bored and asked one of our fallers for his saw so "he could go have some fun too." The falling boss WAS NOT C-faller certified. The falling boss was an agency individual in a supervisory role who had the direct power to de-mob our faller.

2) A team of our fallers was given the assignment to cut down a "problem tree" on another project fire. They were led in to the location by a falling boss and a safety officer. The tree had been flagged off. Before cutting the tree, our faller asked for a safety report to be filed. He then cut down the tree using jacks because there wasn't any holding wood left. The report was never filed. The faller was told a div. sup. had attempted to cut the tree down and couldn't get it to fall. The faller was told to drop the subject.

3) Another team of fallers was asked to cut a tree similar to the tree above. The tree had been hacked to shreds (but it was still standing). The lead faller in this team had asked a BIA crew to NOT cut timber its sawyers were not capable of cutting. (He had cut the crew's lead sawyer out of a mess twice the day before.) The crew leader had gotten in the fallers' face and told him off. Same crew. Same sawyer. Our same faller had to take the tree down.

4) Fallers were cutting in an area designated for work during the morning briefing. There were lookouts posted. The area was supposed to be clear. Road lookouts had stopped traffic. Unknown to the fallers, the IC had entered the area to eat lunch. A tree fell near him. Guess who got reprimanded?

I do agree with the sentiment that a firefighter's life is ultimately their own responsibility. But there are definitely circumstances compelled by supervisory actions.

You will never find a safer faller than one who has had to buck the tree off of a friend, and then go tell his wife. The individual on our management team overseeing the safety program did just that. Yes, the deceased faller made the decision to enter an unsafe area - on the direction of a falling boss/safety officer. The faller could have declined. Unfortunately, he did as he was asked and died.

I encourage our fallers to be extremely conservative in terms of safety. Like the sentiment expressed regarding the two young men who were killed on the Salmon-Challis, I fully agree there is no acreage worth the loss of a life. No tree is that important.

But, NorCalTom, blaming contractors so generally for safety violations is not right. There are some excellent contracting companies in the fire suppression field who are trying very hard to set a high standard for safety. I'll leave this subject at that.

Fire Momma

Ab, please add this to my other post:
NorCal Tom, I've read back over your post and the others a few more times, and I realize you said you weren't trying to paint an overall negative portrait of contractors, just that you had had some specific issues with specific Oregon contractors. I apologize for suggesting you were casting a shadow over contractors in general.
7/28 Foxfire, Sammi and Others,

While I agree with you that it is indeed every firefighter's personal responsibility to demand that safety regulations are followed I think that Sammi has an equally valid point in mentioning that there is a REAL WORLD PROBLEM of young firefighters feeling like it isn't their place to go against the grain. That has to be taken into account. I know that feeling and it is hard to go against. Sammi, I certainly hope that your boys reported that SOB that instructed them to leave behind their fire shelters later even if they were afraid to say anything at the time. It is their DUTY to report that kind of activity because if they don’t, they are enabling that individual to endanger other FF in the future. That is UNACCEPTABLE!

I have had the good fortune to have some excellent teachers, guys who know their stuff and have their priorities straight. Their attitude is that when we are on the line it is my job to work hard and it is their job to keep me safe. That is the way it should be, a FF should never HAVE to stand up and make a stink because safety regs aren’t being followed, they SHOULD be able to work with confidence that they are being looked out for. That being said, if it comes down to it, a FF has to grit their teeth and go through the pain of confronting and reporting irresponsible behavior on the part of their superiors.

We all, from the lowest ranking to the highest, must have an attitude of zero tolerance.

OD
7/28 Ranger Ash,

NWCG has been pretty clear about the 14 day assignments. The 14 days
start when you check into the incident. Travel DOES NOT count toward the 14
days, and the status-check in recorder asks you when your last day off was to
determine if you came in fresh, or from another fire. If you came directly from
a fire, that travel counts towards the 14.Travel home again does not count. So,
you could travel 2 days to a fire, then do 14 shifts there, then travel 2 days
back, for a total of 16 days gone from home, as an example.

-MJ
7/28 Hi all,
I have a question concerning the 14 day assignment
policy. It has always been my understanding that the
start of the 14 day policy was the day you left your
district not from the last day a firefighter had a day
off. My experience has always been on a shot crew
so, it may be different for other resources. Could
anyone please give me some direction with this.

Thanks,
RangerAsh
7/28 Sammi,
I find you post disturbing on more than one point.
Please re-read what you have written. You cite many safety violations that your young firefighters have experienced, and despite the suggestions given them by their dad, yet they continue to participate in those dangerous situations. And apparently willingly continue to actively remain firefighters under these conditions. And you suggest it is someone else's fault?

Red card, machismo and peer pressure aside, (and be damned if a life is in danger) SITL's words ring true: "Fire fighter safety is a _personal_ responsibility. If we each accept that responsibility we'll be far safer than if we try to blame someone else."

Also, please do not speak for me as a FF ("I know you FF reading this know exactly what I am talking about, but it is unheard of for a working FF to buck the system in any way."). I have, and will continue to speak up when I believe the situation warrants. However, no one can teach or legislate common sense, nor control the forces of Mother Nature. Those who have chosen the path in life of wildland firefighters must accept that, and accept the responsibility for their choice and ultimately their safety.

Foxfire
7/28 Hi Ab,

I'm attaching four photos of the memorial to Larry Groff and Lars Stratte who were lost on the Bus Fire on Aug 27, 2001. I did not have a GPS with me yesterday when I took these but here are directions to the site.

From Hopland go north on Hwy 101 about five miles until you come to McNab Ranch road. From Ukiah go south on Hwy 101 about four miles. Turn west on McNab Ranch road. At the T turn left on Bus McGall road. Follow the road about two miles until you see the memorial on your right. From Hwy 101 to the memorial is 4.3 miles.

Loren Davis
Kenwood FPD

I posted two of them, accessible via the memorials page. Thanks. Ab.
7/28 Hi Ab,
I want to put in my two cents on the Red Card Issue.

Each year since the Storm King Fire there have been greater restrictions and greater scrutiny over the qualifications of the Red Card, and maintaining that kind of quality control is a good thing.

However, what still continues to be unacceptable system-wide is the timely issuance of the Red Card by government agencies. Consistently in the past and today Red Cards for all agencies are supposed to be issued to all firefighting personnel AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON, NOT AT THE MIDPOINT! There are some of you who will say "I get my card assigned the day fire season starts", and if you do that, it is great to hear because it means some FMO and his staff are doing their jobs.

Overall that is still not happening. Crews start the fire season and the old standard is "We'll issue you your Red Cards before you go on assignment or fax them over to you when you reach your destination". With today's rules and regulations if you show up at a fire without the Red Card you can and will be sent home, or until your unit sends your information.

Here is the solution: NIFC and all the Fire and Aviation Management across the board need to MANDATE that Red Cards be issued to all Fire Personnel within a week of that person starting the fire season, and FMOs need to be held accountable by adverse action if those cards are not issued right away. There is plenty of time to have these issued accurately at the beginning of each season, not at the mid-point of the season.

By delaying the red card issuance, you delay the ability for crews to be deployed rapidly. I have seen where some forests in the past have intentionally delayed red card issuance so they can keep people on the home forest rather than fill resource requests. There is no reason why a fire clerk cannot issue cards immediately with the proper information, and if upgrades to the cards need to occur, those can be issued as needed.

We have based a lot of our accountability on insuring that red cards qualifications are properly verified, but we can't be accountable if the cards are not issued immediately. There is no reason why a card cannot be issued on Start Day and re-issued if there are changes that need to be made. If a task book is completed on a fire and turned in the paperwork should be processed right away, not when someone feels like it.

MOC4546
7/28 I know I said I was going back to FamilySaid and MMOB (mind my own business) but I want to answer the question about contractors. Both the incidences, withholding red-cards and blackballing has happened this season and not with contractors. (being told to leave shelters in trucks and don't wipe the accelerate if it hits ya were on State crews,) and it was said in front of some guys that were up the food chain and nothing was said to correct the "mistakes".

We do have one family member working with a contractor, third season, and he is very happy there and they are being very good about safety and other issues that have been mentioned here. He works year round with them and is getting a degree in forestry management. And they are very supportive of him getting his education.

Now, two years ago another son was with a contractor and he was so disgusted with the way things were done he jumped ship real fast. No doubt there is good and bad in all things. the Forest Service and DOL should be out front carrying the safety banners and yelling "see, this is the way it is suppose to be done!!!!" If you guys can think of a way for people like me to speak up abt safety issues and still protect jobs I am all for it but just like everyone else, I do not want to cause trouble for family.

So just sign me part of the weenie club,
sammi

Nobody is suggesting you should go back to familysaid. With issues like yours, you should join the fray. Ab.
7/28 Dear Ab,

Just wanted to share this with our firefighting community. This was a letter to the editor in the LaGrande, OR Newspaper. This is from the parents of Dan Rama. He fought fires for five years.

Vicki Minor
Executive Director
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On June 21 our family attended a memorial service in La Grande, Oregon honoring our son and four other young wildland firefighters who were killed in a van accident on the way to fight the Hayman fire in Colorado last June.

This has been a very difficult year for all the families and crews involved, but as we reflected on all that has happened, we realized that one of the steady rocks of support amid all the chaos was the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. This is a non-profit agency whose purpose is to assist the families of fallen and injured wildland firefighters in their time of greatest need.

We had not heard of this organization before, but the Foundation people were one of the first contacts we had on the day following the accident, lending information and both emotional and monetary support. This support continued throughout the year and they were in attendance at the memorial service this past weekend.

This year's wildland fire season has begun, with fires across the west making the headlines. There already has been at least three firefighter casualties. If you enjoy the wildlands of our country, if you watch the news and think of the men and women who risk their lives to keep the rest of us safe, if you were or are a firefighter, if you know a firefighter, if you wonder about what can be done to help, we would like to suggest you consider a contribution to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. This group works tirelessly to help those most directly affected by wildfire tragedy. They are worthy of your support.

The Wildland Firefighters Foundation is a non-profit organization that supports all wildland firefighters during times of critical need. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is located at 3880 S. Development Ave, Boise, ID 83705. For more information visit the Web site: www.wffoundation.org.

Dave and Judy Rama
Baker City, OR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As far too many can attest, the Wildland Firefighter Foundation is a fine and, unfortunately, NECESSARY organization, supported by our tax deductible donations. Please contribute. They make the major difference at the most critical time for those who have lost loved ones. Ab.
7/28 Catchin up...

Contributors, please take a look at the Wildland Fire Memorial Sites page to check for accuracy and duplication. Dick Mangan, TC on the Rattlesnake Fire, Hugh and Neptune on Tim's GJ memorial photos, please check. In the case of the Grand Junction site, I am unclear if there is a duplicate or a triplicate. If it is possible, please take your GPS and get the lat and long for these places, Folks, and keep 'em coming in. Aren't there any Missoula Smokejumpers who have more info like pics, a link or lat/longs on the smokejumpers' memorial?

Hopefully some photos coming later.
Ab.
7/28 Ab, your computer sounds a lot like mine.

The pictures are of the memorial at the Grand Junction Air Center for the 5
personnel that were killed in July 1976 on the Battlement Creek fire. Two
air tanker pilots were killed when their aircraft went down, and the 3
firefighters were killed when they were over-run by the fire the next day.
The flag is at half mast in honor of the Idaho fatalities.

Tim

Thanks for resending that information, Tim. Nice photos too. I put the links to them on the memorials page. Ab.
7/28 Re "delaying the redcard" for questioning safety issues or refusing an assignment:
Sammi,

Do your kids work for a contractor? And no, I am not impugning contractors
in general, just giving a heads up on some from Oregon. I could see some of
the ones I'm dealing with threatening to "delay a redcard" to anyone who
threatens their bottom line -making money.

We have had some problems with contractors from Oregon coming to norcal,
having driven way too many miles with no sleep in days. Our solution: put them
up in a motel overnight and send them home. I wish we could fine them or the
people who sent them to us. Better yet, if in violation, ban the suckers. Luck
for us is, they are, as yet, too uneducated or too stupid to lie about their lack of
sleep. We are only out the cost of motels, etc. I hope the cheese hole doesn't
line up for worse outcomes.

NorCal Tom
7/28 Personal Responsibility and Management Responsibility - I think that both arguments are right.

When you get an assignment, your safety should always be your first priority, not machismo. On the same note, the people handing out the assignment should also think of safety first. Ultimately what happens is that there is a breakdown on both parts.

Management comes up with an idea because they need to do something, or at least they think they do. Then the firefighters get the assignment and to us it is just another difficult task. However what happens is that we hit the lines and become complacent and forget about SAFETY FIRST.

I started in the wild land side on an IHC crew and then moved over to the structure side. On both sides when things go wrong there are always common denominators. We usually hear that communications, assignments, briefing’s and just plain common sense had something to do with it.

It is unfortunate to hear that people feel that there will be retaliation if you don’t follow an order because of safety. I have had a couple of dealings with this on both the wild land and structural side. On every occasion not only was there a legitimate safety concern but, when brought to light, there was action taken to correct it, or we did not do the assignment. I would like to think that we are past the blackballing because of safety concerns and instead should be promoting these individuals to look out for others. Remember when something goes wrong it is usually the firefighter that gets hurt or killed, so we must always put our safety first no matter what the perceived consequences are.

RandyD7387
7/28 my sincere condolences to those who have lost loved ones this past week. and my thoughts are with those who still work the lines.

the posts here in the past few days seem to speak of the same frustration: people keep dying in situations that are seem to be entirely preventable, but all our rules and investigations don't seem to be doing any good. i can't speak for aviation mishaps, because i don't know enough about the complexities of flight, but when firefighters are overrun on the ground, the frustration really seems to hit home.

some of the comments here echo two main themes: one is fighting fires that may have no resource values at risk and the other is a questioning of the training - specifically the 10 and 18. folks seem to be upset that investigations will simply reveal a failure to adhere to the rules of engagement, but my questions aren't simply what rules were broken, but why were they broken. i think it has to do with the way we train firefighters.

i was taught the 10 and 18 by two different agencies (USFS and a state DNR). for me, both sets of instructors stressed the importance of the rules. like many crews, we had to memorize them, but i was fortunate enough to have leaders who believed that the 10 and 18 were rules you worked with and evaluated constantly. it was easy to forget them when you're digging line, but we had squadies who would ask, mid-stroke, what watch out situations were present, or if we were following the fire orders. it was this type of field reinforcement that got me thinking all the time about safety, from knowing the fire, to knowing exactly where i was going to go if things went bad.

in fact, one of the older members of the crew would ask us young guys on long mop up shifts to pick out the best escape route and safety zones. we'd spend the hours discussing the advantages of certain terrain or natural features.

the point is that all this training took place outside the classroom, and while it reinforced things i learned in the S-classes, it was a practical experience that helped shape the way i approach fires.

i consider myself one of the lucky ones, because my first fire job was on a 'shot crew. i was surrounded by people with many years of experience who i could trust to keep me safe while i was able to learn about fire behavior firsthand. and we rolled right out of training to a fire and put my learning to good use. but i also know that many others aren't so lucky - for most their first fire job isn't on a crew that may have lots of experience, and fires may not come right away.

so, i think one of the main problems facing the fire organizations a whole is training. its a topic that as been discussed many times on this board - often in the form of leadership, but the same principles apply here. we have developed lots of classroom settings that can teach a lot of theory, but its no substitute for hands on training (the the reverse is also true). we have a lot of people who can either read a book and tell you how to fight a fire, or can live in the woods and dig all day, but when it comes to mixing the two, we're coming up short.

a final story to emphasize the conditions that we are often times placing our firefighters into: two years ago, our crew was on a fire in wyoming, headed by a type II management team. our supt came back from the morning briefing, and asked a few of us to look in pocket guide for the safety zone guidelines. it seems the management team was having a hard time interpreting the area of the necessary safety zones. it turned out that all involved in this discussion were working under the assumption that a safety zone was a square - not a circle! and consequently their areas were too large versus the areas printed in the pocket guide.

no one was hurt, and i'm glad they were overestimating the size of the zone, but it raised some troubling questions for me. we could teach people all we wanted about fire, but unless you actually had done calculations or built safety zones, you might know it (a good command of high school math is all that is needed). and the same is true on the ground - we can drill 10 and 18 all day long, but unless you are actively using the 10 and 18 as tools to engage a fire, they are worth nothing more than interesting trivia.

JerseyBoy
7/28 Regarding the gale force winds that took out the Smoke Fire base camp.

Mellie:

In answer to your question on the mph -- our fire behavior
analyst is going to try to get an official answer -- he was not a base
camp when the storm blew thru (it lasted a good hour or more with the winds
sustained that whole time)- and it was really isolated as our fire
behavior analyst was at Ravendale which is apx 9 miles away from base
camp where it sprinkled some but did not come with the wind/hail event we
got. Our safety officer believes the winds "may have exceeded 80 mph" --
some people think it could have been closer to 80-100 mph winds.
THANKS for sharing the photos with theysaid!

CJ
7/28 Ab,

I am absolutely blown away by the response. I had no idea there were so many, and I have a feeling we haven't heard the end yet. Thanks for your assistance. For what I was wanting to use it for, there are alot of inadequate descriptions. But maybe somebody out there will use your site to find them and give us a more detailed description/location. In the meantime, I will be releasing the Smokey Bear Travel Bug through www.geocaching.com within the next 2 weeks. I'll list as many memorial sites as I can on the website and point to the rest on your site. Thanks for your help in this.

I have one to add to the list. One of my employees died on the County Line Fire in Mississippi, 2001. His name was John Paul (JP) Pritchett and his memorial is on the south lawn of the Mississippi State Capital @
N32 18.204
W90 10.947

If you would, please change the spelling of the word "were" to "where" from my original correspondence. My typing isn't all that good but I do know how to spell (when I actually think about checking it).

Also, please give GISgirl my e-mail address. I'll be glad to share all the info I have on this. It might actually help to have a map of all these as we get accurate info returned.

Thanks again,
Buck

GISgirl, send in your address. I don't have it. Ab.
7/27 SITL wrote:

"I've been biting my tongue for a couple days now over some recent posts on
They Said, specifically those that want to place blame for firefighter
fatalities at the feet [of] fire administrators. The facts are that fire
fighters die because they make bad tactical decisions. Ignoring the 10s and
18s is the biggest part of the recipe for disaster. If we, as fire fighters,
blame our mistakes on what we see as poor administrative decisions we'll die
in even greater numbers because we'll be shifting blame to people who can't
save us even if they want to. Fire fighter safety is a _personal_
responsibility. If we each accept that responsibility we'll be far safer
than if we try to blame someone else."

Good points, and if you are referring to my post in reply to ML, that was
not my intent (ie, to deflect discovery of the basic causes of the
accident), and I'm glad you clarified this. If you look at my post at
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/hcarson.htm regarding the use of the Swiss
Cheese Model for Accident Causation, there is a sentence in there that is
key:

"One caution: the Swiss Cheese model is not meant to deflect the basic,
ultimate responsibility that we all have as firefighters: to maintain high
situation awareness (SA) and to make good decisions based upon that
awareness and through sound application of risk management principles. And
those that don't do this sometimes suffer the ultimate consequence, and
unfortunately should and will bear that responsibility."

Nevertheless, the accident investigation should not stop there at the first
slice: there are always underlying causal factors, and they need to be
looked at intensively.
Thanks for bringing this up. \

Regards,
Hugh Carson
7/27 I’ve set up Website specifically to provide competitive sourcing information to use for lobbying. It’s at http://home.centurytel.net/BehindTheCurtain/. Rather than sending large attachments to your inbox, the plan is to post them there and email a link.

For now, some talking points, the Lobby Week Brochure, and the FSC testimony for Senate hearings on CS are posted. While this site is geared specifically for competitive sourcing at Interior, especially in the Forest Service, there may well be information that will be useful to others as well.

In Solidarity,
-- Mark Davis

Forest Service Council Legislative & Competitive Sourcing Committees
National Federation of Federal Employees
7/27 The Cramer Investigation
From the "Missoulian", the Cramer Fire fatalities Investigation Team:
George Jackson, MTDC (Chief Investigator)
Leslie Anderson, MTDC
Chuck Whitlock, MTDC
Randy Moore, Milwaukee
Erin Newman, Washington DC		 Ron Angel, Coeur d'Alene, ID
Marcus Schmidt, Denver
Grant Beebe, Boise
Kevin Bishop, Atlanta
Linda Donaghue, St Paul (Team Leader)

Dick Mangan

I'll ask it. Are any of these people well versed in the "Swiss cheese" Model of Accident Causation that Hugh Carson lays out?

FYI, you can keep up with official developments on the Cramer Investigation: www.fs.fed.us/r4/sc/fire/cramer.htm. Ab.
7/27 Every Year my guys are telling me some not so serious to very serious mistakes/orders given by command on the fires that scare the beegibbers out of me. (I consider even the not so serious as very serious.) My young FF are in the sorta macho/peer pressure stage of life where they are not as likely to stand up to a command person and disagree with orders. You should hear the talks they get from their dad.....and they walk out the door really believing they can speak up....nope they get out there in the FIRE WORLD where no coward is allowed, and we see the results. . But recently around here there is blatant serious risks being assigned with the understanding that if the FF refuse, their Red cards will be delayed for a while.

In the spring when the FF were doing controlled burns they were told to leave the shelters in the trucks, packing them slows you down ...they were told when the copters were dropping the golf ball accelerants that it was not necessary to leave the area, just don't rub your skin if it falls on you......they were told look-outs were not necessary on controlled burns. There was several more issues but I have slept since then.

Every year I hear SAFETY-SAFETY and then we start seeing deaths and then the investigation and low and behold it was the FF that died"s fault. I know you FF reading this know exactly what I am talking about, but it is unheard of for a working FF to buck the system in any way. They know they will be blackballed and then probably get laid off or never get the call......so for the FF, it is a very precarious situation.......even if those kids that rappelled out of that copter saw the seriousness of the situation, they went anyway......no one wants to be labeled a weenie. well I had rather have live weenies than cooked ones.......mother and wife of FF's and I want - no, I demand - they be kept as safe as possible.

Sammi

Sammi, to be fair, we have no idea what the situation was with the rappellers who died. Hopefully the Cramer Fire Investigation will illuminate that. As far as the infractions you mention, send in specifics and we'll get the info to the people who can do something. Everyone must be responsible for demanding safe practices. Ab.
7/27 Abs

I've been biting my tongue for a couple days days now over some recent
posts on They Said, specifically those that want to place blame for
firefighter fatalities at the feet fire administrators. The facts are
that fire fighters die because they make bad tactical decisions.
Ignoring the 10s and 18s is the biggest part of the recipe for disaster.

In 20 years of fire fighting in Operations and 5 in Planning I've had
plenty of crappy assignments handed to me. Many of us here have had the
same experience. Administrative decisions about which fires to fight and
which to let go are a related but separate issue. When all is said and
done what matters most is *how* we carry out our assignments, not
whether those assignments are good or bad.

If we, as fire fighters, blame our mistakes on what we see as poor
administrative decisions we'll die in even greater numbers because we'll
be shifting blame to people who can't save us even if they want to. Fire
fighter safety is a _personal_ responsibility. If we each accept that
responsibility we'll be far safer than if we try to blame someone else.

SITL
7/27 Sincere Condolences (what empty sounding words) to the family and friends of all the FF family members we've lost this season and past seasons - 3 confirmed deaths this week, and now rumors of 2 more ... eloquent words escape me, tears are flowing

My kids, too, are on the line out there somewhere. I fervently pray they and all others are safe and remain so; I pray they've received the best available training and use their long time skills every minute they are out there fighting the dragon in the mess created by that singed Bear.

Be safe people! for those of us who now sit home and pace, re-read vfd cap'n's posted link; and remind those on the line to do it if they have time.

purple's mom
7/26 ML wrote:

"What's more, I am very tired of reading fatality reports that place tactical blame for the folks on the ground. The responsibility on most fatality fires lies not with the on the ground folks who may have made mistakes, but with the agency administrators and fire managers who to this day are still not following a policy