Ab, thanks for your links
From Tahoe National Forest site...
Lightning Fire Update

Lightning hit the west and south ends of the forest on the morning of August 31. Several lightning fires have been discovered on the Foresthill and Nevada City Ranger Districts. Crews and equipment are now being dispatched to these fires. Precipitation has been spotty so far.

EP

You're welcome. Ab.

http://www.warnechemical.com/atv.htm

The Devil Fire is one of several that make up the Santa Clara Complex.
Blowup occurred in the bottom of a drainage as inmate crews were conducting burning
operations off of dozer lines. All 55 deployments were in a safety zone and
two minor injuries resulted. Investigation swung into full gear today.

Press hasn't picked up on this story at all. One local paper referred to
firefighters using "emergency tarps" to avoid the fire. If someone can remember a
larger shelter deployment in California, especially the Bay Area, let us know. The
involved crews were apparently ordered back on the line to resume operations
just after the incident but saner heads prevailed and they were stood down.
Reports are that the deployment was carried out calmly in rapidly deteriorating
conditions which became extreme.

Growler

For any experienced and red carded firefighters, there's a company seeking firefighters and ENGB.

Be Safe, especially over the next days when so many in our country are traveling on holiday.

Ab.

The firefighters are employed by Strike Back, a contractor in Dayville. Strike Back's owner was headed to Wallowa County today to meet with the injured firefighters.

Best wishes for their swift recovery.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lightning fires drain fire-fighting resources with info on the Santa Clara Complex and a few pictures
http://morganhilltimes.com

The incident occurred at about 3 AM on the Devil's Fire, Santa Clara Complex. Apparently Mountain Home Strike Teams 9473G and 9472G were conducting a firing operation off a dozer line. A flair up occurred during the firing operation and brush on both sides of the dozer line began to burn. People deployed their fire shelters. There were two injuries: a CDF Captain got burned on his arm and an inmate bumped his head during shelter deployment. Both were treated on site and continued to work.

Thanks for the forum. I'm sending in somemore local info from CDF about the fires and some information on forestry aids that have died in a car crash. We ALL need to be more careful in our vehicles.

County FF

Hazardous duty? Technology, experience dampen firefighting risks
www.billingsgazette.com

MKS

www.fire.ca.gov for info on the entrapment. Ab.

The Santa Clara Complex reported this morning "Approximately 50 fire shelters were deployed on the Devil Fire when the fire made a significant run. Crews entered a safety zone where the deployment of the shelters took place. There were two very minor burns to elbows."

Also "The Devil, Hamilton, Kinkaid, and Annie fires have the potential for significant growth. Most of this growth has been expected to be on the Annie fire, which grew over 4000 acres in the last burning period."

As of 0700, the SC Complex is 18,457 acres large. The lightning-caused fires are located in the Mt Diablo Range between Gilroy & Brentwood and are burning in Santa Clara, Alameda, and Stanislaus Counties.

They have 2,307 personnel working on them: 2,104 are State of CA, including 40 STs of type 1 crews (inmates), engines (15 SR and 29 ST), 21 FS and BLM personnel, and resources from Marin Fire, Napa Fire, State Parks, DOD, Alameda Co Fire, Contra Costa Fire, Alameda Co SO. Lots of dozers, both CDF (10 SR and 10 ST) and private (14 SR).

The Devil's Fire may be one near Livermore. Does anyone know for sure?
BE SAFE, people.
Ab.

Van crashes, injuring six firefighters
www.oregonlive.com

"Officials say at least six firefighters were injured in the rollover accident..."

"all the injured were talking with emergency crews."

Reading the story online requires a non-invasive registration.

BC

If firefighters all did those two things would you then be in support of the firefighter Presumptive Law? or would you object to any union doing collective bargaining? or is it specifically the IAFF? or are you against government (and our taxpayer money) being responsible for unsafe environments that we work in? or is it something else? or all of the above?

You could clarify, please. I'd be curious to see what your real issues are.

I don't smoke and I stay in shape. I am for the Firefighters Presumptive Law. If I get heart or lung disease or cancer, I feel that it will likely be due to the hazardous environment I work in every summer. If other firefighters get those benefits why shouldn't I. Am I a second class firefighter because I'm a Series 462 forestry tech with a BA and (almost a 401 biologist for gods sake whatever that means) and not called firefighter?

Tahoe Terrie

I just heard on our local news that a ff was hit with a tree (snag)
and received a skull fracture but is thought to make a full recovery.
This happened on the B&B fire in Ore. Have you any information
on this?

KB

He got a concussion and went to the hospital overnight for observation. Looks to be doing fine. Ab.

Good to have some e-mail back-and-forth last night. I hope we were able to allay yours and family members' fears. Thank you for seeking info for them. I can only imagine what it's like to have an anxious cell phone conversation with a family member on a crew far away that gets cut off mid-conversation and leaves you thinking the worst.

Hopefully firefighters reading this will work at having a clear cell phone connection before calling in their "high adrenalin" state.

Everyone reading here should know that firefighters are getting very tired and worn down. Their phone calls will probably reflect that.

LadyFF13, if you haven't had a chance to check in with the Blackfoot Lake Complex team this morning for a more official take on yesterday, here's what I found out. There was no incident like the one you were fearful of. Fire activity yesterday did pick up when compared to the prior day's fire activity. Overall acreage for the complex went from 1409 to 3997 acres yesterday. The Beta Fire is 518 acres. Fire spotted over Hungry Horse Reservoir. Reservoir Rd is closed. All of Martin City is under precautionary evacuation, but zones 5 and 6 (25 homes) are under mandatory evacuation. Abbott and Emery Bay Campgrounds are closed.

You probably know about these useful sites. Here are the links anyway:
Large Fire Information for the Western Montana Area
The Live Cams at Glacier National Park
NIFC Large Fire Map (look at all those fires, no wonder policy is changing)

Be Safe All, they're predicting very active fire behavior in MT and ID today.
Ab.

PS. I have put up many new photos on Fire 18, AirTankers 7 and AirTankers 8, Handcrews 9 and Helicopters 11 photo pages. There are some nice ones from British Columbia, Canada and many from current fires in the US. Thanks to all contributors. Oh, take a look at the new photo on our main page as well. It came in last night from the Wilcox Fire in the Okanogan Highlands of Washington. Thanks to J Foster. More coming from that set of photos.

For those of you who don't usually check Familysaid, you might want to. There's quite lively discussion and a terrific fire painting that Artista created. If anyone knows of other painters who create or have created wildland fire art besides Monte Dolack, please let us know.

“None of the funds made available in this or any other Act may be used by the Forest Service to initiate or continue competitive sourcing studies until such time as the House and Senate Committees on Appropriations have been given a detailed competitive sourcing proposal (including the number of positions to be studied, the amount of funding needed, and the accounts and activities from which the funding will be reprogrammed), and have approved in writing such proposal.”

Big businesses stand to make a lot of money on the outsourcing these A-76 studies would force, and you can bet they will be working hard to defeat this provision. Smart money is they will, unless Congress hears from us. To find out more, including how you can help, check out http://home.centurytel.net/BehindTheCurtain/ .

-- Union guy

"There is simply too much fire and too few resources to expect that every wildfire will be contained or controlled by anything other than nature..."

"Some smaller fires we will go ahead and contain..."

"But right now, for many of our incidents, we are working to control the sides of fires that threaten communities. Some of these fires are just too big and too remote to be able to have 100 percent containment by humans."

"Ten fires are beyond any one person's - or one command team's - ability to supervise to the best of their ability. Once you get to six or seven or more, you are really not able to pay attention to all the details of an incident."

"All the large fires will be managed first to contain those parts of the fires that can threaten human life and property. If an incident commander does not have the resources to completely contain an incident, they'll secure the fire where it is closest to communities and steer the rest of it away from the community into a more remote area. That may be where it stays until we have a season-ending weather event."

Read the whole article; follow the link given by Heli Groupie. www.headwatersnews.org/miss.firelines.html

Heli Groupie - Thanks for digging that up. Double thanks if you sent it in the first time. Interesting discussions resulted from it in firecamp.

NorCal Tom

NorCal Tom

I haven't been able to find it either. It was like a not-online publication since it didn't have a bunch of ads on the page around it. Readers, did anyone bookmark that article? I remember finding it interesting as well. Ab.

****************
Tomorrows become our Yesterdays.
It's in the "Nows" that we build the foundations of our past
And the stepping stones of our Future.

********************

At least to me, Firefighters appear to live in the "now". They live life to the fullest, pushing themselves and their environment to the limit. I take comfort in knowing that those who lost their lives at least lived them the way they wanted to. So many people out there live their lives in the "I wish I had" or the "what if's." I know that for me, I feel twice blessed for knowing my HS FF. One, for the love that we share, and two for the privilege of seeing the passion and fire for life in his eyes.

My heart goes out to those families who had their loves ones taken from them, and that wonderful spark put out.

Poet

www.cnn.com

This accident of contract firefighters sparked my interest in that system. Just like in June 2002 I wanted to find someone to blame for the tragic accident I read about. I did some internet research and found some frightening articles about contract firefighter companies' desire to make the almighty buck and knew I was on the track to discovering something:

Sunday, March 23, 2003
www.kezi.com

Sunday, July 30, 2003
seattletimes.nwsource.com

Monday, August 25, 2003
www.oregonlive.com

What I discovered instead was that the articles are only one viewpoint of an unrelated situation. There is no target for blame for accidents such as on Sunday. The employees are consistently on unfamiliar roadways with heavy summer traffic. The reality is that the more time they spend on the road, the higher their risk of being involved in an accident. Their loss of life is mourned terribly by all. Thanks for providing a forum where I can read others' opinions and learn to see more than one viewpoint and lose my eagerness to point fingers.

It seems that the Oregon Dept. of Forestry and other groups are aware of the safety problems addressed in the articles and are attempting to tackle them.

As for the eight men, may they rest in peace...

Elaine

Thanks Elaine, for the collection of links and your thoughts. I woke up this morning thinking those "wonder what happened" and "what if" thoughts that invariably follow tragedy. These articles are good for refocusing and perspective. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends. Ab.

Attached is a Memo that I pray will add value to our discussions and our
consideration of yesterday's horrific tragedy. Please forward in order
that all firefighters might take a moment to think about the consequences
of their every-day actions. Thank you... -ed-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: Firefighters at Large
From: Ed Hollenshead, National Fire Operations Safety Officer - NIFC
Date: 8/25/03
Re: Tragic Loss and Resolve

Never before have we, the wildland firefighting community, placed so much emphasis on the concepts and tenets of safety. The awareness, oversight, and attention to the fundamental rules of wildland fire survival have never been more keen, yet seemingly senseless deaths continue to take members of our extended family. I believe firefighters are more astute and situationally aware than the average Joe. I believe firefighters understand, better than their neighbors, the finite nature of life on this earth. I believe firefighters are better prepared physically, mentally, and emotionally to deal with the unknown, to identify and manage risk, and to make decisions based upon these honed abilities.

I would ask all of us to contemplate our daily actions and decisions in light of yesterday's tragedy. How many corners do we cut to save time, to prove a point, or to get on to the next task at hand? How many times do we do something we know to be risky before we've had the chance or taken the time to assess the risk? How many times do we knowingly violate a law or standard simply because it's inconvenient or burdensome? How many times do we ignore the gnawing in our gut because we don't believe what we're feeling is true? How many times do we "go with the flow" to avoid conflict or the appearance of weakness, even when we know what is happening is wrong? And... how often do we think we can get away with all these things before the consequences catch up with us?

I have no answers for what happened August 24, 2003 on Oregon State Route 20. None of us, really, does. In the aftermath we cannot not be satisfied simply to mourn eight young firefighters, offer prayers for their families, friends, and co-workers, and wonder "Why...?" We have the responsibility, and should be resolved to apply our training and superior sense of surrounding to our everyday living. We have the responsibility, and should be resolved to avoid the pitfalls of haste and reliance on "luck." We owe it to their memory, to our loved-ones, and to each other.

Mellie

(j) Public safety officer means any individual serving a public
agency in an official capacity, with or without compensation, as a law
enforcement officer, firefighter, rescue squad member or ambulance crew
member.
(c) Line of duty means:
(1) Any action which an officer whose primary function is crime control or reduction, enforcement of the criminal law, or suppression of fires is obligated or authorized by rule, regulations, condition of employment or service, or law to perform, including those social, ceremonial, or athletic functions to which the officer is assigned, or for which the officer is compensated, by the public agency he serves. For other officers, "line of duty'' means any action the officer is so obligated or authorized to perform in the course of controlling or reducing crime, enforcing the criminal law, or suppressing fires.

So, the blanket statement that "AD's are not covered" is false. It doesn't make any difference if your pay is determined administratively or if you are paid at all. What is important is that you are working in an "official capacity" as a firefighter. That means the good Samaritans who invariably show up before the fire trucks are not covered.

But, the loggers will be covered, if they initiate suppression where required by that stipulation in the timber sale contract to carry so many shovels and extinguishers to fight new fires.

Just about anything I do connected with my department is a covered activity, including dropping snags and getting hit by one. Others like fellers have to meet the more rigorous standard, because their primary function is not suppression of fires. It's apparently out of the second sentence in the "line of duty" definition that the Justice Dept. came up with Wyatt being "not authorized to engage in fighting fires." It probably doesn't help the cause that fellers (except for boss) are not listed in PMS 310-1, and that USFS may or may not follow BLM's lead in developing a taskbook for fellers. Defining the "official capacity" of a person by using agency rules and regulations is the way the Justice Dept. determines eligibility.

As for the real question of whether sawyers should or should not be covered, I wonder whether the power company lineman and tow truck driver should also be covered? For our rare structure fires, if we can't locate a disconnect, we will wait for the power company to show up before doing interior attack . We sometimes use wrecker's cables to stabilize vehicles over the edge. These people make it safe for us to go in to do our job, but either one of those guys could die onscene and not get PSOB.

Yet, if the fire department paid our respects at the funeral and I was killed during the procession to the cemetery, my wife and step-daughter would get PSOB, because I was assigned to a ceremonial function. It's not necessarily fair, but an act of Congress could change it - like they did years ago in adding ambulance crews and then federal employees.

By the way, a few years ago we made up a 2-inch notebook of procedures for our department, that details every step needed to insure the families of our firefighters receive every benefit they are due, including PSOB and education benefit. It is the agency responsibility to walk the survivors through this. There are some time-critical things like blood tests and filing deadlines that a grieving family should not have to deal with, and which our staff might otherwise overlook during our own time of loss.

vfd cap'n

from Another R6 FF

The news station reports the crew is based in Roseburg, OR and was returning back to Oregon possibly from Idaho or Montana.

This is too sad for words. Sunday Prayers go out to all families and friends.

Another R6 FF

Ab has confirmed the bare-bones of this. We are saddened beyond words.

Strange that PSOB were not allowed for Wyatt, they listed him as one
of the fatalities due to firefighting assignment on

www.usfa.fema.gov/applications/ffmem/ffmem_detail.cfm?p_id=1299

I went to the website and the U.S. Fire Administration has Wyatt listed as a CAREER FIREFIGHTER - HIRED BY THE USFS. It seems to me that even with various loopholes concerning ADs, if they list him as a career firefighter then his family should be eligible for benefits.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Can someone shed a little more light on the subject?

Heli Groupie

"16.571 ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS:
Applicant Eligibility: Public safety officers--A public safety officer is a person serving a public agency in an official capacity, with or without compensation, as a law enforcement officer, firefighter or member of a public rescue squad or ambulance crew." etc.

It would seem that according to this that all ADs WOULD be eligible...case closed.
It would also seem that the intention of the law was that anyone "on the fireline taking part in suppression operations" would be eligible for PSOB. Likewise most would "reasonably assume" that these folks would be "under the umbrella of the term firefighter". If reasonable people were involved in the decisions in court "any Federal agency would have a hard time proving that AD fatalities would not be covered by the PSOB program" as you state. Unfortunately only in criminal trials are reasonable people involved in the process.. e.g.. a jury. And the lawyers representing the "govt." don't usually need to prove their case...they just need to convince the AD's lawyer that they might be able to get a judge to agree with their interpretation.

In Federal court.. where these cases are decided... very few "reasonable people" are involved in the decision. A federal judge makes the decision based on whatever the attorneys can convince him are the existing laws and "facts". And once a single federal judge had made a decision that an AD might not be covered by PSOB the law "changes" in that other judges consider such decisions as the current interpretation of the law...and it is more risky to decide differently than to not. Such a decision will certainly be appealed to a "higher court" (few reasonable people there too) and will result in one of the judges being judged "wrong". Very embarrassing.

And so...armed with such an "unreasonable decision" Justice Department lawyers attempt to whittle away at what an AD (or their survivors) deserve by presenting the argument that "the AD was "not a federal employee", "not a firefighter", or "not authorized to fight fire"...however unreasonable it may be. They also use every trick in their bag to make the process as expensive as possible since the AD has a limited budget and relative to that they do not. After a while they dangle an unreasonably small "settlement offer" which by that time seems like the only way either the AD, their survivors, or the lawyer representing them will ever get anything at all.....except more in debt. They call this "negotiation". They don't do this because they are heartless bastards...they do this because "doing the right thing" will not get you promoted to a higher paying position in the Justice Dept and tricking the "other side" into accepting less than half of what the are "clearly entitled to" will.

This kind of "negotiation" does not happen much with "real federal employees" since they are represented by unions which have the ability to cause major problems if this style of "negotiation" is used on their members.. or members' survivors. ADs don't have a union...which is why it is routinely used on them.. or their survivors.

Dana

The Aussie study on PPE, "Project Aquarius", found that 2/3 of the heat that a firefighter was subjected to was metabolically generated, and only 1/3 came from the fire. The Aussie's are strong proponents on a SINGLE layered system of PPE.

Dick Mangan

Dick, if you don't know, Doug works with the Ventura Co Fire Department as well as with others. Ab.

Mellie