"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
October, 2003
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Beginning of the 2003 SoCal Firestorm reporting on theysaid

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10/31 Nerd, he's a journalist jackal. What do you expect?

SoCalFF
10/31 I’m curious as to people’s reaction to this article:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090573/

I’m all behind Mellie and Sammi in saying that wildland fire fighters shouldn’t be heroes…but I think this article is pretty vicious, and if not way off the mark, then at least heavily skewed. It’s also pretty irrelevant to wildland fire; most of the examples used (I’m not going to argue with the adrenaline junkie comments) apply to structure fire only.

Nerd on the Fireline
10/31 Ab-

There was a question about the origin of the term "Stupid Zone". As far as
I can tell, it was invented by Denver Post columnist Ed Quillen.
www.custerguide.com/quillen/eqcols/20018074.htm A quote from his
August 7, 2001 column:

"Instead of passing new restrictions, each state could use its experts to
produce a map with official "Stupid Zones". You'd still be free to do
whatever you liked with your property in a Stupid Zone. However, you'd
manage on your own with no property services from the government. No
road plowing or maintenance, no rescue, no flood insurance, no deputy
sheriffs, no rebuilding assistance, no subsidized electric or telephone service,
no standing to sue in court for property problems, no fire-fighters dying to
protect the trophy-home lifestyles of the rich and famous." (emphasis
added)

Jackson

I knew someone would have his name and the reference. Thanks. Ab.
10/31 Hi
My name Rob. I live here in new mexico.
This a note say "hi hope all are safe and sound."

I was born and lived in rancho cucamonga until 1990 when I moved to new mexico. I was trained by ccc and was on the mop up crew in ccc.

A word of hope goes out from me to all you crews out there in the CA fires. I found your site after I looked at the ccc web site, cdf site, u.s. forest service site and am sending my words to all young men & women, the seasoned crews, the newbies, and the ones who have been at this for a long time. Does anyone know if there are any smoke jumpers out on the fires?

This web site is a good one the for looking up things about fire. I love the terms, nicknames, it is all is so great.

Most of the thanks go the structure firefighters. But if it was not for the forest fire fighters - smoke jumpers, hellatack, hotshots, ground pounders and the camp crews feeding the crews, the air crews getting crews out the fireline and for air support - fighting these fires would have been impossible. My thanks to all of you.

All of us in the west need the rain. I hope it rains soon.
Rob.Ortegon,
Corrales New Mexico, 2:32 MT
10/31 I've been trying to follow the status of the fires in Southern California
and have had mixed success. Some of the fires are distributing, at least
after a few days, pretty good information on the Internet. The Old and
Grand Prix fires on the San Bernardino NF have set up a Joint Information
Center with an Internet site www.esri.com/jicfire/ that includes
maps, evacuation information, and data about road closures.

However, unless I have missed it, the Cedar fire in San Diego County has
very little useful information on the official web site
www.fire.ca.gov/cdf/incidents/Cedar%20Fire_120/incident_info.html
even a week after the fire started. The very low quality maps are sometimes
2 days out of date and there's no information about evacuations or road
closures. The San Diego Union newspaper
www.signonsandiego.com/index.html and is providing much more
information than the agencies responsible for the fire.

On a wildland/urban interface fire it can be crucial to get current
information out to the local residents. Some Incident Management Teams
don't make this a very high priority. Like Ab pointed out a while ago,
sometimes this lack of information can be life-threatening. Lives were lost
on the Cedar fire because residents did not receive evacuation information
early enough.

Incident Management Teams, including CDF IMT's, need to provide information
to the public on the Internet, such as:
  • Accurate fire perimeter maps, down to the street level when possible,
    updated at least once a day. Additional Field Observers can be ordered to
    provide this information if aerial resources are not available to map the
    fires. Maybe the efforts toward developing Unmanned Aerial Vehicles for
    use on wildfires can help in this effort.
  • Maps and text information that includes real-time information about
    evacuations and road closures.
  • Maps and text information that includes current information about homes
    that have burned. Field observers, with a GPS unit and working with a GIS
    guru, should be providing this soon after it is safe enough for a Field
    Observer to re-enter an area after the fire has passed through. There is no
    reason why a family in an evacuation center should have to wait until they
    are allowed to re-enter their community days later to find out if their home
    is still standing. Insurance companies could also use this information to
    expedite the claims process.

Some Incident Management Teams routinely have very good web sites,
but no agencies have really stepped up to the plate to always accept the
responsibility to provide all of this information in a near-real time
manner, therefore, it sometimes falls between the cracks. Incident
Management Teams should make it their SOP. I don't know if it will save
lives, but, it may.

Jackson

Jackson, thanks for bringing your long experience of firefighting, management and knowledge of the internet to this topic. In my opinion, this is an area that sorely needs addressing. Tied up in it are issues including inter-agency and intra-agency turf, lack of experience with the internet as a tool for sharing information and lack of knowledge regarding how the public and firefighters seek information on the world wide web. If communication systems are not in place BEFORE a crisis, they won't be created DURING the crisis. More to be discussed here...

And to h~!! with the lurking media who are already sniffing around at every occasion to place the BLAME for the Cedar Fire deaths and the fires are not even out yet! BTW, I'm not referring to our small circle of really savvy fire media folks who read and contribute here. We really appreciate you, your insightful voices.

Thanks to those who sent emails to agency folks to improve the info available on the web and to those who sent fire info that we never posted because new incident sites were created. We appreciate all the help and participation that made info sharing better after the IncidentCommand.com web sites went down.

Ab.
10/31 Ab,

Awesome image, hard to imagine all the destruction.
NASA's view of the fires from space: earthobservatory.nasa.gov

Tahoe Terrie
10/31 I've updated the Southern California Fires web page. Things are looking better because of the weather and hard work, but we are not out of the fiery woods by a long shot.

Lohrey's PNW Team 2 is now working on the east side of the Cedar fire in a unified command with CDF. They have a new incident info site up with a geomac map image from yesterday. They'll probably update that when time allows.

Encouraging news article: Weather Switches to Firefighters' Side, a map from the SanDiego Daily Transcript and a fine graphic map with stats on all the socal fires from the LA Times (pdf format).

Also updated the Jobs page and the 0462 and 0455 wildland firefighter jobs series.

Ab.
10/31 Ab,

I just found this interesting item when looking on the NEWS page for info
on the firefighter who was lost and the San Berdu fires... Fires Put Airtanker
Pilots to the Test

"Windshields on six tankers were cracked by the debris, and
cockpits filled with smoke. Another pilot saw a 4-by-8 foot
sheet of plywood sail past at 1,500 feet."

On another note: My condolences to the family of groundpounder Steve Rucker
for their loss... May he rest in peace.

Todd
10/31 I read with interest all the postings about our homes being described as "just a bunch of wood". I have put a lot of thought into this concept living in the WUI for 20 years and being a volunteer firefighter for the same 20 years. We have done our part to create defensible space around the house and while we have escaped even a close call, we have had summers that were bad enough that we had to seriously think about the prospect of losing it all.

I think the absolute healthiest exercise I have ever gone through in my life is to sit down and figure out what you would take with you if you were limited to one carload and a few minutes to load it. I have actually written down an "evacuation list". Once you get the kids, dog, cat, a few important papers and the family pictures and then you realize that beyond that there is very little that is "irreplaceable" in your life. The things on my evacuation list would not even fill up my car. It is actually very liberating to realize how little real value all the "things" in your life have.

I have had two friends that have gone through a total loss of their homes (one in a fire and one in a flood). They describe the experience as initially devastating, but in the end both of them described it as incredibly liberating. They both got the ultimate lesson to teach them that our stuff is really "just a bunch of wood".

Don't get me wrong, I carry enough insurance so that I would not be left homeless in the event of a catastrophic loss. However, I have long come to peace about the prospect of losing it all. The more devastating loss for me would be if one of my fellow FFs were injured or worse trying to protect the "pile of wood" that I call home.

The snow and freezing rain came right on schedule and the fires in Colorado left as quickly as they came. I hope Mother Nature helps out the folks in Southern California as well.

Stay safe! Take care & Adios,
CJD

There is an excellent book out there,
Living with Wildfires: Prevention, Preparation and Recovery
by Janet C. Arrowood
written following Colorado's 2002 devastating summer of fire. It logically goes through all considerations and helps organize planning before, during and after wildland fire. It is applicable to all areas of the US. Mike Apicello PAO from NIFC reviewed it, offered suggestions and wrote the Forward. Book Reviews. Ab.
10/31 I heard of the first firefighter fatality in the Socal fire complex when I turned on the news first thing yesterday. I tried to think of a post that could convey the intensely sad feelings I had all day...but words simply can't do it. My prayers go to the family and fellow firefighters of the Novato firefighter who lost his life in the California nightmare fires. And to all the firefighters still battling fatigue, terrain, and weather struggling to contain them.

Fedfire,
I too saw that report and it seemed to me that the reference was to the fact that the current fires are so "urban interface" in nature that it can't be considered "wildland" rather than the firefighters themselves.

Ab,
Maybe something good will come out of this. The insurance companies are going to take a huge hit. As you say they will probably respond by encouraging homeowners to "firesafe" homes in fire prone areas through financial incentives. And nothing catches the avg. persons attention like having to write out a big check every 6 months. Sometimes it takes a disaster to initiate meaningful change.

Still praying for hard rain in CA.
Dana
10/31 Kibby and All,

I'll try to find out about where to send a donation to the family who lost their house and has very large baby medical expenses. I had the same desire to help in some way.

Another way that people can help fallen firefighter families is to contribute to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. In the case of our fallen Novato/Marin CA firefighter, Steve Rucker, CDF is the lead agency on the Cedar Fire. It is handling all the family's travel and lodging arrangements. The lead agency does not do that when we loose fed firefighters, contractors, or county, city and vollie firefighters on federally-overseen incidents. I am not saying this is bad, simply that it is reality. Instead, we rely on the Wildland Firefighter Foundation to step in with open heart and arms and money. That organization relies on donations to help out families even though it mostly uses volunteers to do its good work.

The other day, Vicki Major the director of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation called me and then got in touch with CDF via some contacts I gave her. Neither she nor I knew how CDF worked in such cases of injury and loss. Following her usual supportive protocol, she was inquiring about what the Foundation could do to get family members of the fallen firefighter transported to SoCal from wherever they were. What she and I both found out is that CDF has the resources and the supportive will to make arrangements and pay for travel and lodging for families. For those who don't know, families are always shocked to numbness over their loss and often unable to do the simplest things. The first thing they need is for their community to step in with practical help. CDF was already doing that. Excellent.

My hats off to all who work and volunteer to support our fallen firefighters. My heartfelt condolences to Steve Rucker's family and friends and prayers for the critically injured Capt. Doug McDonald and his family as well. May he make a full recovery.

Mellie

Ab added a Fallen Firefighter category on the Fire News page for those seeking more information on the tragic death of Steve Rucker. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
10/31 Just look at the National Incident Management Situation Report for the past
week and you'll see large fires popping up in the Southwest, Great Basin,
Northeast, Southeast - and other areas of the country. Think of why some
resources stay home. Even if these fires are not intense as the media
portrays in So Cal - Wildland fire interface fires / that affect structures
and communities in other places of the country - are burning, and will
continue until Mother Nature decides to end it all with a "walk off"
weather blast of winter.

Also, let's not forget that CDF is noted as perhaps the third largest
firefighting organization in the country - and that's just one state.

-- Been to So. Cal, it's mother nature's "fall and winter arena" - the fire
planners are well aware of this.

-- Signed: Burned over once by Santa Ana's - never again.
10/31 From Firescribe, the current MAPside views:

Overview MAP
The Old Fire with its 2 heads, one heading for Big Bear, the other skirting/hitting Arrowhead and Green Valley
The Grand Prix Fire
The Padua Fire (from the 29th) to the east, 95% contained at last report and returned to local control this morning at 0600.

Excellent work by the PIOs of the Old for working out a way to get this REALTIME information up on the internet.
10/31 Lynn,

"Payson" helitack is now tonto helitack and has moved to Roosevelt Lake, a few of the oldsters are still around, Dino and Gus. They might have some photos you can find them in the FS directory.

SNS
10/30 Like many, I've been watching the fires and kicking myself for trading in my green engine for a yellow pavement queen. We sit here as fires burn locally and we are not allowed to go help (we were taken off the mutual aid matrix 2 years ago). The other day I got out of the cab smelling smoke from a nearby lost controlled burn and for a second actually was actually thinking I was going to get to do some mop up, before reality kicked in and I remembered we were just washing down walkways (the geese congregate). It is likely my department will be gone and I'll be on a RIF by next year, still we go out and take care of those in our jurisdiction and watch while thousands of others are down south, its just part of the job, on the plus side I get to go home every other day and see my family. I don't mean to sound preachy to those who want to be there, I've been in their shoes and would love to go, but they should remember that they are doing their job even if nothing is burning locally, somebody has to stay home, maybe next time it will be their turn to go.

An exception I'll make to this is the laid off seasonals, I can understand their frustration. When are the people in charge going to figure out California's fire season is nearly year round and even when it isn't you can almost always count on fires in Oct/Nov, not usually on this scale but I seem to recall the state scrambling for resources in January more years than it being quiet.

I saw the person making the pile of wood statement, didn't realize it was a firefighter but it was a pleasant diversion from the "victim" profile the media has been hammering. After 12 years I find it hard to have much sympathy when people lose "everything" they have in one of the urban interface fires, more and more I appreciate the term (I believe invented here) of the "stupid zone". If "civilians" think that is harsh perhaps they should consider the family of the Novato firefighter, from what I've seen on the news the engine was burned over while protecting structures. He has truly lost everything and his family has lost more than a house. I doubt we'll see much change after these fires but just maybe we can finally get people to consider location and construction when they feel they must build in these areas.

Anybody else catch CNN the other day talking about all the local and state firefighters and the Federal governments "so called" wildland firefighters. They probably meant no slight but it sounded like it to my ears.

Be safe, and hope we don't lose anymore down there (or elsewhere while were at it), I'm pleasantly surprised we haven't lost any before now. If you're stuck watching on TV like me, relax you'll get your turn one of these days. Enjoy your time at home and I'm sure your family is happy you're not there. I know many of my relatives are (they think I'm crazy for wanting to go).

Fedfire

Likely the insurance companies will have a say in how homes are rebuilt on the "wooey" or WUI, and how much fuel reduction must be maintained to qualify for insurance. I can even see them taking over the inspection process and giving points for tile roof, nonflammable siding, no woodpiles nearby, proper clearing, etc. More points, lower rates.

Stupid zone was invented by a Montana or Colorado journalist. VFD Capt, Mollysboy remember his name? Ab.
10/30 They are starting in again with "its all the environmentalists' fault" on the California deal. The president of the Sierra club went on TV to point out that none of the fuels projects in Southern CA National Forests had been opposed by environmentalists, but at this point people are looking for someone to blame. This is so frustrating for me! Working in the world of prevention, I know that there have been attempts to conduct Firewise workshops out there and communities have been on the non-receptive side, even though Firewise tactics could save their houses in situations such as these. It also breaks my heart that DC is all about logging but says very little about prescribed fire, which I feel is so important. But as usual, people are looking for someone to blame . . .

Signed,
OD
10/30 Just a pile of wood:

The man was actually the owner of a small lumber yard that was lost in one of the fires. He lost his business but his point was that it was really just a pile of wood. It was Not a Heartless comment. I just talked to a friend who is down in San Bernardino and at the fire camp it is city engines for as far as you can see. Across the street it's full of hired equipment (dozers and Water tenders), some already on the demob list. As for out of State Contractors, dont feel so bad, not even all the California Contractors got called. We here in California know very well what it's like to sit (not by choice) and watch another state's Biscuits burn. Same old politics just different States.
I admit that I Too want to be there. I would gladly go if called, but lets be Real and Honest, as Contractors nothing that any of us have to offer could have made a real difference against Mother Nature on this round so far, except maybe Murphy's Law (that says as soon as I get hired on a fire its gonna Rain).

My heart goes out to the family of the Firefighter from Novato,
All Gave some
Some Gave All
Thank You

We Will look forward to when these fires are over
Extreme Dust Buster
10/30 Mellie,

Do you know if the crew collecting money for the ff
with the new baby has a mailing address for donations?
If I can't physically be on the fireline, it would be
nice to at least give a little support to someone who
is.

Take care of yourselves down there in SoCal.

Kibby
10/30 Adds a new dimension, doesn’t it? 5$DOG, I completely agree with what that FF said…if I didn’t make that clear in my post, I’d like to make it clear now. The fact that he could say that about his own home is a spectacular testament to the sheer toughness of the guy…I wish wonderful things for him, starting with wet weather, lots of sleep, and the support of his loved ones. It’s not the houses that matter; it’s the people. Priorities get twisted when the urban/wildland interface gets crossed…it shouldn’t happen, but it does. We’ve lost one firefighter to this (Nerd searches for a good noun). I really, really hope his death went toward protecting lives, not property.

I unpacked my red bag a week ago, after our first snow; my boss just called and told me to pack it back up again.

Nerd on the Fireline
10/30 If I remember correctly, the fire fighter was talking
about his OWN residence. I remember seeing the report
on CNN where the fellow had been on the line for two
days and was checking on his home. He was shown
driving away in a hard topped Jeep without any
markings, didn't look like any fire vehicle I've seen.
Individual did look like he had been put through the
mill and was needing some time off. I could be wrong
and this wouldn't be the first time, but I keep an eye
on the News to make sure....

sign me
'Wish I were there too'
10/30 Nerd, I didn't add that the firefighter I wrote about was looking at his own home. I didn't know when I wrote the post. The first time I saw it on CNN, I just caught the end of it, but I saw a repeat late last night and was very surprised that it was his home. He did add that he hadn't slept much in the last few days because of being on the fireline. I agree that people need to be a bit careful when speaking with the media. Especially when emotions run so high. We don't need to add to people's stress. But when we talk with each other the reality check is imperative.

Some Scuttlebutt:
I talked with friends on the Old Fire last night. I told them about one rumor I heard about a near miss. They say there have been many near misses on these socal fires because of the rugged terrain, shifting winds and extreme fire conditions. Undoubtedly, the stories will fuel conversations for many meetings and training sessions to come.

One friend told me of all the firefighters he knows whose wives are expecting babies any day. Their morning prayer is "please don't let it come today". I think they'd like to be there for the blessed event.

One guy told me of a young firefighter who is also a new dad who had lost his home. His family had evacuated. My friend's crew is collecting money to help out because the new baby had some extra medical needs and substantial expenses.

Another friend told me of a team member who lives in the Arrowhead area who will not go look at his home so as to better stay focused on his job at hand. He's afraid he'd be inclined to go to extreme measures to save it if he but visited.

I was told of firefighters' vehicles parked at stations in the line of the fire that now, days later, have bubbled or scorched paint and melted taillight coverings.

And the stories go on - the stuff of life.

My candle is burning for those we have lost and those who are injured and those who are just plain tired and trying to maintain situational awareness. I hope for the best outcomes for all.

Mellie
10/30 Nerd on the Fireline,

That hotshot may be burned out, he may be cynical and also bitter, but kudos to him for saying what he said. Homes to wildland firefighters are just a bunch of wood. FUEL, FUEL, FUEL.

Yes, to someone, they are investments, substantial reward for hard work, places of memories, stores of keepsakes, shelters. Centers of worlds, HOMES.

However to a highly experienced wildland firefighter, who is woefully under equipped and under trained for structure fire. Homes are fuel. And battling a house on fire means injury and possibly death to an untrained firefighter.

Our hearts bleed as deep as any others at the loss, but what can we do.

We are trained in urban interface to triage homes before the fire even comes through. Write off the ones that have no potential for saving, concentrate your efforts around the ones that have a chance. If a home is more than 1/4 involved move on to the next one. FUEL, FUEL, FUEL.

It's true, if these fires were farther out, and not in an interface area, firefighters would back off and burn out from the ridge top. Instead, life and property are at stake. So you see heroic efforts to save what is essentially fuel to a wildland firefighter. Basically putting people in the absolute, most hazardous fire situation that you could imagine.

We are trained in nothing more, we are exposed to all of it.

5$DOG
10/30 I just realized that Nerd asked that this be posted on Familysaid. I posted it here. Still seems appropriate. Ab.

So I read Mellie’s post on TheySaid about the hotshot who commented (regarding a burning house) “It’s just a bunch of wood.” I found the comment amusing and revealing, so I read it out loud to some of my co-workers. They were shocked and appalled. “Yeah, just wait until it’s his house!”. I was wondering how many people watched that interview and thought the same thing?

The thing is, you take a bunch of young, generally unattached, fairly rootless people, you train them to see reality in terms of life-or-death (Comment from my mother: “But you don’t go on calls like that, do you sweetie?”), you make them seasonal so that they don’t have any possessions that aren’t going to fit in the back of a car… what is real and important to them winds up looking totally different from what looks real and important to the homeowners they’re supposed to protect. There’s a sign on the door of my house that says “Shelter Hole”. It’s not my castle, it’s not the product of much heartache and customization and a nearly-paid-off thirty year fixed rate mortgage; it’s the place where I get out of the weather and store my stuff. This makes genuine empathy with somebody whose house is burning kind of abstract… I don’t have that kind of investment, so I don’t understand people who want me to risk my life and my partner’s life and my crew’s lives in order to save possessions. Really, it’s just a pile of wood. And other stuff. Which generally puts off toxic fumes as it burns.

My gut reaction on this is mixed; I recognize that losing a house is a devastating personal and financial blow. But the obnoxious, brutal, arrogant little voice inside me (the voice that usually gets louder the more I deal with “civilians”) says “Well, that’s what you get for letting your possessions define your life.” For those of us who’re defined by our training…we effectively get stripped down to nothing at the start of every season, handed our PPE and our line packs and our red bags, and we’re good to go. I’m not the gal with the car and the house and the sunglasses and the wardrobe; I’m first scrape, with or without the car and the house and the sunglasses and the wardrobe. I’d miss some stuff if my house burned down…but stuff is replaceable. I don’t really use most it anyway.

Mellie nailed it; it’s our job, it’s their emergency. I do wildland fire, structure fire, emergency medical, and industrial emergency response, and my experience is that emergencies do not bring out the best in people; occasionally you get an amazing gesture, but usually people in pain or in the presence of pain are nasty, selfish, and quite convinced in their right to request, even to order, responders to put their lives at risk for whatever the ‘victim’ considers important. What happens? Responders get cynical, bitter, and eventually burned out.

Nerd on the Fireline
10/30 This came in last night and I missed posting it this morning before I ran off... Ab.

For all you people complaining about sitting at home or complaining about resources being denied and/or accepted... Listen up.

All of you need to close your traps right now and focus your energy another way. We lost another brother. Maybe we should look at that and concentrate our energy towards thoughts and prayers for that person and their brothers and sisters that sat with him while the fire burned over them. MAYBE you should look at the family that is without a father, a husband, or maybe a mother and father in sorrow. MAYBE you should look at the fact that there are 12,000 people down there doing what they can do help and believe me they are doing all that they can. MAYBE you should look at the fact that if you were down there, you would be complaining about the logistics and operations (looking at what you are saying now) and would be worthless, and MAYBE you should look at the fact that this is life. Want to be a hero, then shut the hell up and wait your turn. We are not heroes. WE are ordinary people doing extraordinary things. That is what this job is about. Did I mention it is a job??

So lets concentrate that nobody should die for a tree or a house. Those get rebuilt, lives don't.

May our thoughts and prayers be with those who are there now, not on ourselves.

Be safe out there, god bless

-Fire Killer
10/30 morning abe's,
my heartfelt condolences to the navato crew. once again, there just
simply are no words to express this kind of grief we all feel.

does anyone know if the community of twin peaks has been spared or did
it burn over?

donna,
single resource.
10/30 I'd just like to say that you guys are doing a remarkable job on this
website. I saw it first in late 98' and kinda laughed @ it not thinking it
would ever really take off. I think it's the best wildland site around and
the updating of it on a daily basis is great.

Way to go guys and gals!

And thanks much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MG

"What? There are other wildland fire sites? ;-) We keep on keeping on. Thanks MG. FYI, the reason the the IncidentCommand.com site no longer displays info on the San Berdu fires is that they got so many people viewing (200,000 in two days) that they exceeded their allotted bandwidth. Their ISP probably charged them big bucks (maybe in the thousands of dollars) and they couldn't afford to do it for a service. They were a volunteer/ private site that sold a few little pictures, but certainly not enough to come close to paying expenses that go with over-bandwidth fines. Luckily, we have just gone to a larger site (more expensive) because of bandwidth issues during fire season, so I think we're OK although maybe I should look at records to see if we're going to run into problems too. Ab.
10/30 There’s another urgent call to action regarding legislation pending on “competitive” sourcing. This legislation would roll back the new A-76 rules under which outsourcing decisions are made by political appointees. Under the old rules, outsourcing decisions were based solely on cost calculations, which at least gave the federal workforce a fighting chance. I don’t know the timing of this Congressional action, other than that it is immanent. Call today. Better to be late than silent. The info you need is posted at http://home.centurytel.net/BehindTheCurtain/.

Also, I’ve posted the language pertaining to Forest Service “competitive” sourcing in the Interior Appropriations Bill.

Union guy
10/30 I have to run off for a bit. Would someone please call Caroline and South OPS to get them to update the R5 fire site so firefighters and the public will know where to find maps and the most updated information on the web. We're getting a lot of emails from people looking for info on the Old Fire in the Arrowhead area. All the R5 fire site has is phone numbers.

Good job on the part of the Fire PIOs for getting on it last night and getting that information out there!

Thanks, Fire Information Folks. Ab.
10/30 Area Command is meeting to discuss overall strategy for the fires. The Area Command Team is led by Rex Mann.
Information and predictions for today on the fires without websites:

Old Fire: Old Fire Map and info with links to quick information and evacuations. (Good work for getting the information online. Ab.)
Fire is spreading North and East following prevailing wind currents and topography. Rapid spread is predicted when all burning factors are in full alignment at 1400hrs. 2,392 incident personnel are fighting the fire. It is 47,960 acres and 10% contained.

Appx 850 homes and 35 commercial properties have been destroyed. Of that, yesterday/last night fire destroyed 350 residences in the area; 300 of which were in the eastern Lake Arrowhead community.

At risk are 50,000 homes, 80,000 outbuildings, 2000 businesses totaling 10 billion dollars in property.

For more info, call the San Bernardino National Forest 909-382-2600.

Grand Prix: Grand Prix Fire Map and info The fire has experienced significant growth in a northerly direction into the Antelope Valley. It is expected to continue to spread to the North and East. Yesterday/last night he fire made a significant run to the north toward Hesperia. Mandatory evacuations orders are in effect for Oak Hills, Baldy Mesa, Silverwood Lake and Summit Valley. Evacuation orders have been lifted for the Lytle Creek area. 1,808 incident personnel are fighting the fire. It is 91,207 acres and 40% contained.

Appx 50 residences and 40 outbuildings have been destroyed. At risk are 3,000 homes, 1,500 outbuildings, and 100 businesses.

For more info, call the San Bernardino National Forest 909-382-2600.

Padua Fire: Structures are threatened in the community of Mt. Baldy Village which has been evacuated. Structure protection is continuing. The fire is 10,466 acres and 90% contained. 455 incident personnel are fighting the fire. For more info, call the Angeles
National Forest 626-574-1613.
10/30 After going out on fires in California for five years and watching the coverage of the latest big fires, I still think CDF and the local fire departments might find it difficult to switch their thinking from initial attack to extended attack. This transition includes tapping into the national resources as needed and getting onto reasonable work-rest rotations. Tuesday night, I saw a CDF firefighter interviewed who had been in a fireline command situation for 48 hours with no down time. That's too long, period. This is a tough time of year anyway, even in a normal (whatever that is) fire season. I can remember California, October fires where everyone started out tired and it seemed like half the people in fire camp were trying to get sick. And boy is it hard to roll out of the sleeping bag for 5:30 a.m. briefings long before it gets light. Bless the folks who are out there this year, and keep your head up and your whoha covered.

Still out there as an AD
10/30 Ab,

Some people think incoming equipment and personnel are being held in reserve. Nothing is farther from the truth. There are just so many incidents (Camp Pendleton, contained today, and the Temecula (Mountain Fire) nearing containment that draw little press) and different ICP's (Simi Valley has Ventura County and LA County running things in their respective counties) that not everything is making the news. LA stations have been concentrating on the Simi Fire and almost ignoring the rest and they are the stations generating the national news footage. San Diego's four fires were just sound bites, despite the size, fire front is now over 45 miles long, and the number of civilian casualties. It hard to compete with flames (most of which were burn outs), around multi-million dollar homes, and run away reporters.

Every one coming to help is being given a job. Statewide priorities are being assigned by State OES and others, and valuable resources are distributed accordingly, matching the type of resource to the job as best they can.

Fyr Etr
10/30 Dear Ab,

I found your site in July at the same time my son was hired on for his first season with CDF. It has been invaluable for me to learn about wildland firefighting and the politics of that world. I felt I had to email you as I read FamilySaid and TheySaid this evening wherein folks were asking why California will not use contract companies. Well, my son was laid off of CDF on 10/15/03 just before the conflagration down South commenced. They have not recalled him which seems insane considering not only is he ready and able - they trained him! The state would rather pay him unemployment than to hire him back on - is it any wonder that California is such a mess?!?!?! By the way, he is considered eligible for rehire next season, so it is not like he did not acquit himself well during the nearly 90 days he was employed.

Thanks for hearing me out.
Frustrated and Angry in Northern California
10/29 Ab,

Here are two news links to television channels that are running live web feed when they are doing the news of the So Cal fires:

www.TheSanDiegoChannel.com San Diego

www.abc7.com Inland Empire

My sympathy and prayers go out for the Family and friends of the fallen Navato Firefighter and to those who were injured.

Stay Safe. Lots of reports of crews putting in shifts in excess of 36 hours and these are being made directly to the media.

Fyr Etr

some more news stations with photos:
10/29 To all the guys on the line, be safe. Heads up and pray for rain.

Joe
10/29 GT

If you think the situation in Southern Cal is all that simple then you are sadly mistaken, uninformed and definitely inexperienced in dealing with massive conflagrations. Hunter hit it right about the ICS being developed after the 1970s fires which occurred during this same time of the year with much the same results. The system works and it's damn effective. The fires are broken up and are relatively manageable in terms of size, terrain isnt flat and roads are often one lane with two directions of travel. Communities are tucked in tight in the timber and brush. Since you're from Nevada go look at the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe and then multiply it by about 100 and you night get close. The numerous times that I have been to fires in Nevada, the one thing that has struck me is that there is a only a very small portion of Nevada that could remotely represent the complexity of fire fighting that is going on in SoCal right now.

Also you're wrong about out of state resources being held in reserve, they are out there doing the job and doing well. The problems faced in the Lake Arrowhead area, San Diego and Santa Clarita are fuels, drought, disease and WIND DRIVEN fire. Perhaps you need to walk a mile in the boots of the fire fighters that are out there getting their ass whipped before you pop off about not being invited to the game.

Nuf said... an old guy
10/29 Sadly, the first firefighter fatality occurred today in Southern California.

It as been reported that a member of the Novato Fire District (California), part of a Marin County Local Government Strike Team, was killed today on the Cedar Fire, in San Diego County.

Engineer Steve Rucker, 38, an 11-year veteran of the Novato Fire District, was killed when the engine crew was burned over. Firefighter Doug McDonnell was reported in critical condition with burns over 20%. Two other firefighters on the engine crew received minor burns. This engine crew was one of 18 engines (3 from NFD, including an OES Engine) from Marin County that were sent down to Southern California.

It was also reported that the engine crews with that strike team will be returning home soon.

The chief for Novato Fire District had nothing but praise for Engineer Rucker, stating his dedication to the job and his support for the NFD's Christmas Toy Drive. The chief informed the public that he left behind a wife and child, who were both devastated.

More information can be found at the CPF website at www.cpf.org/ and www.latimes.com.

Our Prayers and Thoughts go out for Engineer Rucker and his family.

MOC4546
10/29 Please, my Friends, do NOT fall into considering yourselves HEROES or thinking of the fire as a "must do" at costs. It's easy to begin to feel like you've got to "fix it" when things are so chaotic and intense.

On the Fox News at lunchtime, I was concerned at the way they were reporting the fire at Julien.
Phrases like "The town considers them Heroes."
"It's a historic mining town and it must be saved."
"People are staying to protect their homes".
And all this with 60-100' flamelengths and winds blowing them every whichway.

My CDF instructors always said,
"Firefighting is YOUR job.
It is THE HOMEOWNER'S emergency."
Don't get the two mixed up.

I appreciated the hotshot's comment, 3 day stubble and black with soot. When the reporter asked about how he felt that the house was burning... "It's just a bunch of wood."

Reality check!
Mellie
(and yeah, we do know you're heroes just doing your jobs)
10/29 GT,

You are appointed California Fire God. You will wave your magic wand over
the 150 by 150 miles of Southern California that covers some 10 major fires,
and all those nasty flames will go out.

This group of fires are a Incident Command, Plans, logistics, Finance and
Operations greatest challenge. The geographical, organizational, political,
and logistical complexities of the area on fire are huge.

The California Emergency Services have been operating under the Incident
Command System (ICS) since the early 1970's when they developed ICS after
the fire siege of 1970. They do large Incident Command as well or better
than any other locale. But there is always room for improvement, and you
are just the one to make it happen.

Lets say you can immediately move all the engines, water tenders, dozers,
copters, air tankers, hand crews, and overhead you will need to accomplish
your desires into Southern California. You throw all that equipment and
personnel at the nearest fire. Who will plan for them, feed rest, supply,
and pay them?

Now, new fires break out. Who will work these fires? Not those 3 hours
away covering open stations, because you sent them to the big fires. You
wave your wand and no new fires break out.

Equipment breaks down, needs fuel, tires, replacement tools and hose. You
just wave you wand again and those problems are solved.

People get hurt, fall sick, they need to eat, sleep, shower and change dirty
clothes. Again, you wave your wand and sick and injured are returned to
home. All their logistical needs are immediately taken care of.

I will not attempt to fully answer your observations of what you see on TV,
but TV coverage is not reality in wildland fires. For every firefighter you
see on TV, hundreds are behind the scenes working their butts off. And, be
assured, those on the pavement in front of houses have a job to do also.

By now you have blocked out this dialog and are saying anything can be
accomplished if you just want it to bad enough.

Hunter
10/29 Ab
Just confirmed on TV that there has not been one NV resource that has been
on the fire yet. All NV resources are sitting!
GT
10/29 Ab

It is always enjoyable to read everyone's comments. I have many friends that
work for The Forest Service and BLM. I have heard that there is not an
engine or firefighter from any out of state resource that is actually on the
fire. They are all staging at surrounding stations, some 3 plus hours away.
There are no contractors yet and the news keeping begging for help. I think
the IC's need to stand back and re-organize to get control of the situation.
Each fire needs to be handled separately and I think it has just got to be
too much for each IC. CA has always been one to handle all there own stuff,
but I think it's time for them use the resources that are out there. There
are thousands of resources and firefighters just waiting to help. Why
aren't water trucks being called, I see the engines and crews on TV and it
doesn't look like much is being accomplished? Bring in the water and keep
the drops going, keep the bulldozers moving, keep cutting line isn't that
how fires are usually handled? I know the winds are a major problem along
with all the beetle killed trees, but is CA just going to let it burn till
there is nothing else to burn?

God Bless everyone that's working on these fires and pray the fires are
controlled soon.

GT

Your friend is misinformed. There are NV and AZ engines that are providing structure protection. Last time I looked, they were considered "out of state".

Only a large wet weather event will end these fires. Don Studebaker, winner of the Silver Pulaski Award, said so on CNN. It's not a matter of "CA letting it burn", this is mother nature at its fiercest. It is burning with no end in sight.

Ab.
10/29 People who are enquiring about the Old and the Grand Prix Fires information,

I just talked with SoCal Capt who filled me in. The Information Officer on the Olds Fire knows of the IncidentCommand.com site being taken offline. Info people are working to get the Old and the Grand Prix fires pages up on the Mountain Area Safety Taskforce website. Hopefully that will happen soon.

Some other info on overhead and fires:
Gelobter's CIIM Team 4 is overseeing the Padua to the north of the Grand Prix Fire.
Studebaker's CIIM Team 2 is overseeing the Old Fire from Waterman Canyon Rd (Rt 18) west to the Grand Prix Fire and is overseeing part of the Grand Prix.
Mortier's CIIM Team 3 is overseeing the Old from Rt 18 to Santa Ana Drive (Arrowhead, Running Springs area).
Cable's CIIM Team 5 is coming on the oversee the fire from Santa Ana Drive to the desert floor (Big Bear area).

I put some links to southern CA media on the bottom of the Southern CA Fires page. There are photos and videos on some of the sites.

Ab.
10/29 Just FYI www.incidentcontrol.com that was reporting on the Gran Prix and Old Fires has stopped updating. They said they can not keep up with it as a volunteer group. They now have a circular link that goes no where between their site and the Forest Service site http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/. So no new info is available on the Lake Arrowhead, Crestline and Big Bear areas.

JFdC

JF, I am getting many emails like yours. Please see my next post. They're working on it. Being able to get timely info via the web helps people plan and cope. It might even save someone's life. Ab.
10/29 Ab,

A note on safety, air tankers, and ambulances....

So I heard a story that pricked my ears up the other day. A buddy of mine was working as an EMT in SoCal. And saturday night he got the call to go evacuate a hospital in Lake Arrowhead @ 3am. So he & 30 other ambulances form up and drive up Hwy 18 through the fire. He has no fire training, no PPE, no fire shelter, no LCES, just a polyester uniform & and a radio that can talk with his strike team leader- who can in turn then talk to someone on the fire. While telling me this story, he showed me some very eyebrow raising photos of 20 foot flames on either side of the road and landslides that occasionally blocked his way. No Forest Service/CDF/Fire liason to guide or direct the convoy, no one with any fire training at all! And this is with Santa Ana's blowing full boar, flames whipping up everywhere, and in pitch darkness. Just 30 ambulances winding there way up the mountain. Sounds pretty scary to me. I was wondering what people's thoughts might be on this one...

The other thing I was wondering is about the effect of the big air tanker groundings. Has it really made a difference to the managers on the ground, or have the SEATs really picked up the slack? Just curious.

After some hibernating...
-the Nomad

PS And gawd I hope those guys in SD are okay. I still have some friends down there...
10/29 Just back from Phase I of the yearly deer & elk hunting expeditions in the frozen North (i.e. Montana), and watching the SoCal fire action on the Fox News coming in over the satellite.

On the Stevenson Ranch fire scene, seeing lots of god structure protection work being done, but I'm also seeing lots of the fire folks wandering around without fire shelters on their belts! And a young female reporter in a designer blouse, just a few minutes of active fire behavior away from the active fire front, without any Nomex, not even the requisite open Nomex shirt.

Also lots of talk about 36 hour shifts without rest, working since saturday with only a total of 10 hours sleep, etc: real hero talk, but proven to be deadly over the years!

Where's the SOFR's in these situations?

Heard CDF a fatality and 2 other injuries in the San Diego area...?????

Mollysboy
10/29 Ab

I'm guessing that the rumor your looking into in the firefighter death.
Fox news is reporting that one firefighter died and two were injured on the
Cedar fire. (www.foxnews.com/) I just talked to my husband who is
there and he said when the left the fire there were many medical units
responding towards the fire.

C
10/29 KNBC Los Angeles is getting info. from San Diego media of firefighter death in Julian. Reporting two additional critical injuries after engine was overrun by fire.

FAS
10/29 BC-WST--Wildfires-Firefighters,100
BULLETIN
One firefighter killed, two injured in San Diego County
SAN DIEGO (AP) — One firefighter was killed and two were injured battling
the largest blaze in San Diego County on Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the
California Department of Forestry said.

This came in at 1530 Mountain. No new details yet.

Quill.

I have been getting emails concerning rumors for the last half hour. Ab.
10/29 Lem'me get this updated pronto before the solar flares knock out my computer line again.

The Old and Grand Prix Fire Sites are down. The forwarding url is http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/ No information there.

Those who have sent in emails on a rumor, I'm checking on that topic as well. Bear with me.

Ab.
10/29 Suspect in Old Fire arson.

NorCal Tom
10/29 Lem'me get this updated pronto before the solar flares knock out my computer line again. Ab.
10/29 I notice that our (MN) CL215 water scoopers have been released and sent to Kingman AZ. I assume that they are being used on the CA wildfires since at least one is near a huge freshwater source. They are pretty impressive doing what they were designed for when they are near a large lake. One of the few "firebombers" actually designed for the work of dousing wildfire.

Oddly enough we are still having a few small fires in MN even though it is 30*F and we have had a rain/snow combination falling for at least 2 days. Weird!

I know a lot of MN firefighters are with you in spirit and wish they could be there helping. We are all praying for rain in SoCal before the fatigue factor completely sets in. National news last night said some crews had been working for over 50 hours strait without rest. They also reported that so far there was an estimated "cost of 2 billion" in fire damage and 10,000 firefighters. I wonder how high each of those numbers will get eventually?

As sad as the loss of property and civilian lives makes me I am thankful for the one number than has remained at 0.
Stay safe brothers and sisters.

Dana
10/29 Well the dragon it has caught up with us as well in the Rocky Mountains. The Overland fire is reported to have grown from 60 to 500 acres in the last few hours. The fire started in the Foothills west of Boulder, Colorado (near Jamestown) early this morning. A Red Flag weather day (high temps and winds with low RH) are causing extreme fire conditions. Last I heard the few hundred residents of Jamestown were evacuated. Ironically my chief sent out an email earlier today saying that he heard it was 20-30 acres and nearly contained. Hopefully the snow scheduled for tomorrow shows up in time.

Take care & Adios,
CJD
10/29 Ab: Here is a media release that might be of interest to your audience. "Firemark"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For Immediate Release
Contact: Richard Pfilf
NAFSR Executive Director
Ph: 703-922-3854

FOREST SERVICE RETIREES DEPLORE SUIT TO STOP FIRE FIGHTING ACTION

ALEXANDRIA, VA. The nation's forest service retirees are alarmed about the total lack of responsibility demonstrated by a frivolous lawsuit designed to stop use of fire retardants on forest fires. The suit, by the so-called Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (FSEEE), asks the federal court in Missoula, Montana to enjoin the use of retardant until the Forest Service completes an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS).

The National Association of Forest Service Retirees (NAFSR) points to the current raging fires in Southern California. Here the use of retardant is preventing millions of dollars of property and resource loss and, perhaps, even lives. Forest Service retirees ask how anyone can be so irresponsible to demand stopping the use of retardant while preparing an EIS when Santa Ana winds are now pushing an inferno through Southern California communities. The citizens of Southern California communities threatened by fire should be outraged to learn that the courts may put their lives at risk and enjoined firefighting agencies from saving their homes and possessions.

FSEEE, based in Eugene, Oregon, mischievously contrived this suit, the retirees assert, as a way to subvert and interfere with proven, effective methods of fighting forest fires. Claiming possible detriment to fish, should retardant accidentally fall into a water body, and citing a number of deaths to firefighters over the years, the suit fails to mention or equate stream habitat saved by fire suppression and the human lives saved by the use of retardant. Cities, counties, airport authorities and rural fire districts all use retardant. NAFSR believes the legal action by FSEEE threatens to interfere with the operation of fire fighting agencies across the country.
10/29 There are now 2 wildfires in the front range of Colorado.

One in the Boulder area.
The other on Highway 85 near the Palmer Divide region in
Douglas county between Denver and Colorado Springs.
We are under red flag warnings, it is Hot, dry and the wind
is blowing.

(deep sigh)
tourbi
10/29 AB:

This morning about 6:00am, they found a fire near Jamestown, northwest of
Boulder, Colorado. It is developed into a major wildland fire. All of
Boulder County has people fighting this. It is straight west of my home in
the foothills. It is called the Overland fire I believe. The smoke here on
the plains east of the fire has been really bad. It seems to be letting up
somewhat. They are starting to moving out some residents in Lefthand Canyon.
This fire is coming into the area of the Lefthand fire in 1988. This is
going to be a long haul on this fire. Hope we don't lose any homes.

Lefthand Fire District, which is a the first in fire department, just sent a
Type-3 engine and crew to California two days ago. This is the same thing
that happened in 1988, when they sent a truck to Yellowstone fire.

Hope we there is no more fires.

CAFSman
10/29 It's blowing onshore like crazy here on the north coast of CA.
I hope things are quieter down south. Thinking of all of ya'll.

Mellie
10/29 retrieving information or pictures of the fire crews I worked with in the early 1980's:

My name is Lynn McKenzie.

I was a helitack crew member with the Payson helitack crew in the Tonto National Forest wild land firefighters in 1981. I would like to know what I would need to do to get info or pictures of the year and crew.

I was also a member of the Idyllwild, California engine crew in 1983. This was in the San Bernardino National Forest. I would like to know if there is someone out there that remembers me or has any info on the archives for that year.

Lynn

Hi Lynn, wildlandfire.com doesn't go back that far although we do have some scanned photos sent in by contributors. Writing in here to contact old friends is a good move, although some may be away fighting fire and not reading at this time. Readers, anyone remember Lynn? Ab.
10/29 FYI- The Dulzura Fire is the Otay Fire. It burned the entire Otay
Wilderness area (plus some) and at one time threatened the community of
Dulzura. It was pretty well contained with successful back burns. No loss
of life or structures, just a bunch of Threatened and Endangered Species
(which hopefully will come back). Majority of the land burned was BLM.

As for resources.... Everyone is doing their best. when 120,000 acres burn
in one day- 209s are requesting "TYPE 1 ENGINES AS MANY AS POSSIBLE" -I
think the fires are asking for whatever they can get, the GACC/MAC groups
are doing their best to put things into place. The citizens have not been
requesting people from a certain place or type of business (private/ govt).
Remember the span of control- we need to be planning the attack not just
blindly attacking. So everyone take a deep breath. We all want to be there.
We all want to be fighting the dragon. We all wish we could be there
whether we are stuck in Northern CA, WY or OR.

As I sign off I am frustrated to not be able to do more for my friends'
families who are losing their home (6 at last count), one friend's extended
family member lost his life (fleeing the fire), the kids can't go to
school, and I know multiple people evacuated. These are the type of people
who do know the risk, prepare their homes, and listen to the authorities.
Some days you can do everything right and mother nature just overrules you.

To those down in SoCal you are in our hearts and thoughts. We all wish we
could be there to stand by you on the line. Call us when you need us.

Until then,
BLMgirl

Thanks for the clarification. Ab.
10/29 Ab, today will be critical for some of the communities on the OLD fire.
Perimeter MAP
Topo MAP 10/28

From the morning 209
Major problems and concerns: High winds, dry conditions, and beetle killed timber intermixed with structures. The fuels are stressed and diseased due to drought conditions.

Communities/Critical Infrastructure Threatened: (12 hours) 50,000 homes, 80,000 outbuildings, 2000 businesses totaling 10 billion dollars in property. Power distribution, communication sites, water supply, bridges and roads are all immediately threatened.

Fuels/Materials Involved: 4 Chaparral (6 Feet)
Additionally drought/diseased stressed timber. Dead pine at higher elevations.

Today's observed fire behavior: Passive and Active Crown fires on either side of Silverwood Lake moving Northwest and East. Mass spotting ahead of fire fronts. Uphill runs against Rim Rd. opposite Running Springs with flame lengths greater than 40 ft. with some spotting.

Remarks: This incident was divided East and West of Waterman Canyon to enhance incident management.

Actions planned for next operational period: Continue structure protection. Construct primary dozer and handline where able. Improve contingency planning, mapping and fire behavior analysis. Continue to construct contingency lines. Continue to hold fire west of the Santa Ana drainage.

Projected incident movement/spread during next operational period: Wind and slope alignment with WSW winds will increase the rate of spread up Rim Rd and toward mountain communities. Smoke will be lessening in the area allowing for better aerial recon. Expect erratic winds in the afternoon hours.

Growth potential: Extreme
Difficulty of terrain: Extreme

Lets send a few prayers for the best of weather conditions, folks.
Strider
10/29 Why aren't contractors being sent to the fires? Type 6 engines and handcrews really aren't the right resources for the job.

Most of my experience has been as a STL in structure protection. With the situation in Cali right now, the ground forces most needed are strike teams of type 1 and type 2 engines, with cross trained structural/wildand interface firefighters.

On fires in OR and WA, structure protection is usually provided by fire district engines under the mobilization act or conflagration act. If Cali calls on those, they will get pre-designated strike teams with STL's

Fortunately, those fire districts don't dismantle their resources at the "end" of the season. Local FD's are properly trained, equipped and available.

Why aren't they being called?

Islander
10/29 Abs,
My prayers go out to the So. Cal. fire soldiers, some with 55 hours on the line (AP report). That's not only brutal, but heroic. The enormous property damage is bad enough, but add the loss of life, this becomes a national tragedy. R-5 is usually well covered. You know it's bad when they go outside their borders for help.

I am saddened, though, to see the bureaucratic wheels apparently turn so slow to provide support to our Brothers and Sisters in fire. Given the fluid situation in So. Ca., dispatch centers appear to be having difficulty filling both equipment and overhead resource orders (I learned this speaking to So Cal. fire friends this morning). Their needs seem to be much bigger than grabbing an engine here, a div. sup. there.

Given this true emergency and since agencies in our region are down to seasonal skeleton staffing, we got on the phone and started calling other contract engine companies in our association who we know are capable of dealing with tough Interface issues. Our novel offer to GACC was to provide blocks of EERA equipment in Task Forces--configured to their requirements--each with its own Red Carded TFLD, do all the mobilization coordination and provide these resources on a silver platter at a named place and time. We even had them lined up for immediate dispatch.

I learned quickly, though, that there currently exists no mechanism to utilize contract resources this way, even during a state of emergency. Apparently, each company and its staffable engines can only be dispatched one-here-and-one there by GACC through the individual forests or district dispatch centers, not on a regional basis that looks at these resources as part of a bigger picture, as we proposed.

Additionally, I found one GACC with active overhead orders they could not fill and a nearby GACC with a stable of available overhead and no orders. Is this our friend ROSS at his best, or just Uncle Sam's idea of a Quick Turn?

Perhaps wiser people than me have figured this all out. If so, please let a mere mortal like myself in on the secret. I'm sure many in So Cal. would like to know as well.

Just a Mule Skinner
10/28 DEF and Navy helicopters:

That's the California Department of <badword> for you.
I am not talking about the front line guys, or even the guys who make sh*t
happen, I am talking about the politicians in Ione and Sacramento that have
the corner on their fifedom and won't let go!

Completely assinine - the Navy can land the helos on a rolling deck,
transfer munitions from one ship on the high sea to another, zoom into a
firezone and drop off SEALS/Marines/SPECOPS but they are not trained enough
to drop water on a burning fire?

Jeeeze, they could have been used in areas where the winds were not that
bad, where mop-up operations were going on.

They were THERE ready for use!!

Stupid stupid stupid...
If I were you California guys I would be asking WHY the Navy was not allowed
to participate, and I would send those letters to Duncan Hunter!

San Diego-based Navy helicopters, routinely used to fight fires on military
property, were prepared to battle the Cedar fire on Sunday but remained
grounded because state officials said the Navy pilots did not have
appropriate training. The helicopters were flown to the Ramona airport, but
pilots were denied permission to drop water as the fire began its march
south and west.

www.latimes.com

JH
10/29 SNS,
Laguna HS are on the fires in and around the Cleveland. They were on National
Public Radios's Morning edition this AM.
www.npr.org/programs/morning/index.html
(Click on the link for Wednesday's show) NPR did a very nice piece on the
S. Cal fires and they did a long bit with the Hot Shots.

-Cat
10/28 Contractors,

The engines that are being used are largely engines from communities in CA,
NV and AZ. Structure protection is what's happening. Bump and run. On
some fires like those in San Diego Co, there is little containment effort, it's
all protect life and protect structures. When you can't save it, get out,
move on and find the next place you might be able to save. Private resources
being used are Watertenders, Dozers and Helicopters from what I've
observed. What we also will need are more like managers/sups, specialized
needs SITL, RESL, STLE, TFLD, DOZB, SEC1 & SEC2, DIVS, OPBD etc.

As far as handcrews go, CDF has a large inmate handcrew population to
call on. It's way more economical to use inmate crews than Type 2 contract
crews. Often the fire is so extreme that handcrews would only be in danger.

Anyone else want to chime in with what they see?

SoCal CDFer
10/28 Hey Ab:

Can anyone tell me what a red card does for a person and who is
suppose to issue them? What is suppose to be on a card? Is the
color really red.

N.N.F.F

Check Ab's explanation of Redcards. They are more pink than red in my opinion.
10/28 ok lets settle this
oregon has several contract resourcres available but as of today only 5 contract crews from medford on way, 10 additional goverment . the politics is ridiculous on this fire 10,000 firefighters in california in fighting the fires. and the president of the united states saying that all resources will be commited makes you wonder how much the goverment really cares about contractors.Time to call your congressman or state rep and complain about the unfair treatment of contractors i wonder if the california news media gets wimd of this hmmmmmm.

r-6
10/28 Anyone know if ANY contract engines are being used in southern
Cal. Or any plans to use them?
Thanks.

~S boss~
10/28 Regarding the Oregon crews being "off line".

Ive been on a time-out if you will for some "things". The last i heard was that until all the contract crews got some sort of training they were "off-line". However im glad to hear they aren't. Most of those guys rock. Just like any place, a few crewmembers can make the whole thing look bad.

I have been involved in fire since i was born, and this is the worst thing i ever remember.

Im still looking for the Laguna Shots any clue? Last I heard they were at Pendleton.

SNS

It was only the crews of one company that were stood down until they got more training. Ab.
10/28 From Firescribe: One success...

Camp Pendleton Brush Fire Contained

"The fire burned 8,592 acres. No structures were damaged.... At its peak more than 1,300 firefighters, numerous engines and more than a dozen aircraft from various agencies were on scene. In addition to Camp Pendleton's Fire and Emergency Services, personnel from the USFS, the CDF and many of the surrounding communities joined forces to battle the blaze."

Well, more than one... check Ab's Southern CA fires list... There are some contained. But all the large ones rage on.

Also look at this AP summary: California Wildfires at a Glance

What is the Dulzura Fire and who is lead overhead on that one?

"DULZURA FIRE, San Diego County: No deaths, 45,291 acres burned. Started Oct. 26, cause under investigation. 90 percent contained."

Got'me. My SoCal source says it doesn't have any 209s on file. Not on the NIFC large fire map either. Associated Press has been known to be wrong before, especially where fire is concerned. There's still plenty of nasty flames in the south. Looks like the San Berdu fire is stacking up to be really bad as it hits the timber. Be safe. Ab.
10/28 Very sad to see this all unfold. I was laid off in Oct, from one of the region 4 shot crews. Let's go back to the basics. When all goes bad, go back to the basics: "the new 10" and the old 18's.

It is terrible to see all these houses burned and lives completely changed, but no house is worth you or your crew members lives. I watched several houses burn on the Aspen fire. As a young hotshot, this was hell. Also we saw home owners and their reactions as fire was about to burn their house... all we could was sit and watch. Sad, sad day. Please be careful.

I truely know everyone wants to make a difference. But don't get caught up the "hero" role. We are fighting a true act of nature. Please think before acting... I am praying for everyone on this one.

ANK
10/28 Yes, the headlines all read "no resources, firefighters being pulled off",
but no requests seem to being going out. I've got 2 CAFS/interface
engines sitting idle in Washington. Politics rules over common sense
again.

Islander
10/28 Some pictures of the Grand Prix fire, these were taken at Glenn Haven park
ICP. Winds were blowing 45 plus...houses burning......fire burned around
and to the ICP.

Mellie, not sure about a fire in redwood park, but I believe most of the
smoke in the north state is coming from the whitmore fire east of redding.
Heard thru grapevine it was around 1300 acres at about 1pm.

tc

Nice ones TC. The fire came very close to camp, didn't it. I made a Grand Prix Fire photo page. Maybe some more pics will come in. Ab.
10/28 New Fire in North Zone:

Evacuations called off near Whitmore

The fire burning near Whitmore Tuesday grew to 1,700 acres shortly before 1 p.m., fire officials said. The fire began about 11:15 p.m. Monday near Tamarack and Bateman roads and by morning had created a large plume of smoke that was visible from throughout the north state.

and another one that started this afternoon...

Fire flares up near Wonderland Boulevard

WC
10/28 The Paradise Fire is being run by CDF Team 1, with Loren Snell as the IC,
The Mountain Fire is CDF Team 2. Firs time in a long time CDF Northern
California Teams have been activated in the South. (Teams 1-5 are from the
NORTH, Teams 6-10 are SOUTH). A good call by South Ops or Sacto to stage
North teams in the south because of the unlikelyhood of putting together a
team in the south, after Team 6 was activated (on Call) with all the
activity. And.. CDF assumed command of the PIRU Fire.

FC180

I've added that info to the Southern CA Fires page. I couldn't find a list of the CDF teams and where they're from, so that info is useful as well as interesting. Ab.
10/28 Update on competitive sourcing:

House and Senate negotiators have approved the Interior Appropriations conference report for fiscal 2004. While the measure must still be approved by the full House and Senate, this is in most cases a mere formality. This effectively closes the book on the Interior Appropriations Bill for this year. For those who have not sent out letters or made calls, there is no need to do so at this point in time. Save that energy for the next battle.

The following information comes from The Congressional Green Sheets Environment and Energy Daily Report of October 28. While the final language contains no ban on the administration's “competitive” sourcing initiative, it does cap Forest Service spending on its program at $5 million. It also requires Interior agencies to submit annual reports to Congress about their competitive sourcing programs, and re-establishes the provision (removed by the new A-76 circular) that A-76 results must predict savings of 10 percent or more before work can be outsourced. I’ll post the details on the website when I get them.

While this is not the outcome for which we hoped (it is clear that the Bush Administration’s veto threat influenced how far Congress was willing to go), these are positive changes. These changes show that our involvement can make a difference. My congratulations and thanks to everyone who pitched in.

-- Union guy

Thanks Union guy for your persistence in providing information. Ab.
10/28 Arcata, on the northern CA coast is getting some heavy north wind smoke, strung out and pushed by the North wind (foehn wind). It became evident last evening or maybe afternoon. Anyone know what that is? I heard from Norcal Team 2 (before they left for the south) that Redwood National Park has a blaze. This smoke seems to be coming more from the east. Curious...

Mellie
10/28 Update on fire deaths:

I checked out nbc and cbs news for info on the fire deaths. CBS had a few details at www.cbsnews.com and it looks like a variety of factors have come into play. The main theme seems to be private individuals getting caught up in the conflagration by waiting too long to evacuate.

"Among those killed were one person whose body was found in a motor home, and three in other vehicles, county sheriff's spokeswoman Susan Knauss said. Three were killed while trying to escape on foot and two were dead on arrival at local hospitals.... (Cedar Fire)

"Another fire near San Diego that started Sunday killed two people and destroyed 57 homes while burning about 15,000 acres, authorities said. It also prompted evacuations in northeastern Escondido....

"Two men collapsed and died, one as he was evacuating his canyon home (age 70) and the other as he watched his house burn (age 92) , the county coroner said." (Old Fire)

pH (aka sedgehead).

Ab's italics above.
10/28 Hey folks there are a few engines from r6 down in cal and also a few crews also... now you think of this r6 is now saying they dont have any engines pvt or fed that are free... sent a few good emails off . one to a tv sta and will be talking with them soon..ncbrush6
10/28 I am not sure who to contact to find out more about helping with the relief efforts for these fires in the LA area but I can help. If I can find someone from the FS to pack test me I will be wildland firefighter certified and can get out there on those line and do my part. I also have my sawyer certificate and will be graduating with my AS in fire tech in the very near future. I have gone through fire academy, ICS, Haz Mat, and wildland training. I just need someone who is willing to take the time to pack test me. Can you halp me help fight these fires or do you know anyone who could help me in getting to hlp with these fires in any way possible? I would really appreciate any of the hints you can give me. Thank you.

Katherine
10/28 Mellie,

My experience with beetle killed trees may not be directly applicable to what exists in CA.
In MN we have a lot of acres of beetle killed spruce. Densely packed young dead spruce interspersed among 30-40' full grown dead trees make it kind of like the "doghair" I have seen out west except thicker.

In the few experiences I have with these catching on fire...they indeed did not crown in the common manner.
The fire DID tend to crawl around on the ground until it found some ladder fuel unless it had a good run in grass going into the spruce. Sometimes the ladder was nothing more than an "island" of tall dry grass which allowed the fire to reach the lowest twigs. These are often very low to the ground and can easily have grass growing well up into them. Once a beetle killed spruce thicket is afire the radiant heat ahead of the flame front easily gets the dead spruce twigs outgassing much like needles. The result is a rapid fire progression similar to a crown fire and nearly as fast....with a good wind driving it. More similar to the thick "brush fires" I saw in CA. with 6 -10 foot oily foliage feeding the flamefront than a true crown fire..only 2-3 times as tall.

I hope the beetle kill in CA is more like our dead "jackpine" with around 15' to the first small tinder size branches..and several yards between tree. The folks on CA have enough problems with the nightmare fires on the interface now. I know that these "events" have been long predicted by forestry and fire folks..and largely ignored by the general public but it is still shocking to see it finally happen. I am praying for rain...and the safety of the "troops" trying to guide and contain fires too large to put out and too close to "civilization" to outwait.

Fight smart..fight safe...watch each others backs...no house is worth a life.
Fireronin
10/28 sns your info is wrong. oregon has some very good firefighters waiting to go. just call us. we are here to help.

doc
10/28 r6-california is not out of resources, there are many fed and private contract engines available. Same old politics in California.

norcal private
10/28 With reference to the super scooper photos on Airtankers 5 photo page.

Some simple photos of mine taken Sunday 10-26-2003 in the Los Angeles area:

www.pe.net/~btodd/trip031026_00.html

Things are looking better as the wind in the next few days is to come from the ocean rather than the hot desert in the east.

Bob Todd
10/28 There are people who say all kinds of things about what fire will do and won't do and when it comes down to it you never know what a fire is going to do. Bottom line is if a fire is hot enough anything will burn (or crack, or boil). Sure there are tendencies, generalities, but when it comes to fire there are no steadfast rules. There is no certainty working with this element. the most important thing is to have respect for every fire, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.
FireChica
10/28 california keeps saying it is out of resources well oregon contractors are here ...helllo
people i know how cdf is but come on lets all do the right thing and work for a common goal

r-6
10/28 Two articles from the Press Enterprise. (Requires a simple sign-in but well worth it.)

Devastation of Inland forests fulfills predictions of tragedy
Fire crews get help in Crestline

Here's a photo I took upon my arrival at the Grand Prix fire.

Lobotomy

I put it on the Grand Prix Fire photo page along with 4 more great photos. Thanks for sending them in right away. They got hung up in our new junkmail filter.

If anyone sent in an email in the last few days - that hasn't been posted or that we haven't replied to - please resend. I think I've worked out the kinks in the system. Junk mail, what a pain. Again, thanks Lobotomy. Ab.
10/28 There was some discussion in Fire Chat last night about needles being required to carry a fire into the crown. A very experienced firefighter in the fuels that are currently burning in SoCal said the fire won't crown and run in the bug kill. It needed needles. It's clear that if a fire was already going and blowing that beetle-killed trees would provide substantial fuel.

The final question posed last night before I had to get offline was this:
All other factors being equal, is bug kill more likely to crown, as likely to crown, or less likely to crown than live trees?

Hmm, well we'd need ladder fuels of some sort... guess that takes it out of the "all other factors being equal" category...

Any thoughts? (Doug, I thought of giving you a call to see what you think...)

Be Safe All. Like everyone else I know who isn't already there, wish I was there and could help.

Mellie
10/28 Just a question to all of you more experienced than I am. I read up on the Simi Incident, mainly because I grew up there and have family and friends down there. Why don't they have Forest Service units called in. I realize that it does not fall under Forest Service jurisdiction, but when we have crews sitting around playing video games up here in Nor Cal, why can't they go and assist?

thanks,
Dawn

There are 2 type 1 handcrews on the Simi Incident. Ab.
10/28 URGENT – The House passed language in its version of the 2004 Interior Appropriations bill to prohibit any new “competitive” sourcing studies in the Forest Service. The Senate passed language to allow Forest Service “competitive” sourcing to continue full speed ahead. Conferees from the House and Senate are meeting right now to come up with the final bill that will be passed into law. This is our last best chance for the next year to get Congress involved in “competitive” sourcing. But we must ACT NOW!

How to contact key Senators, a sample letter, and talking points are posted at http://home.centurytel.net/BehindTheCurtain/.

-- Union guy
10/27 AZ Trailblazer,

Thanks for the info, the family stayed in Glendale for acouple of nights and
is now back in Rancho safe and sound. I haven't had the chance to talk to
her for acouple of days due to me working my regular shift and then doing an
8 hour dispatcher shift. Thanks for the help. Sorry it's taken me so long
to say thanks. (We are too busy with flooding calls, I'll have to talk to
someone above me about sending some of this rain west.)

Onelick
10/27 hey sns your info is wrong..

NC Brush6
10/27 Battman, you be safe! Fire Cookie, you too! And John and all the rest of you!

Mellie
10/27 I hear that all Oregon contract crews are on "stand down" after the incident late summer. And all the guys from AZ i am sure will kick some butt. Does any one know what fire the Laguna Shots are on? several good friends are on that crew and I like to keep track in this sort of thing. So. Cal in Oct. is bad news.

SNS
10/27 Cross-posted from Familysaid:

I know it's been awhile since I checked in, it's been busy around here getting ready for the winter season...But right now it's Hell here in So Calif. I sat dazed Saturday night when we finally turned on the TV (we had spent a wonderful day doing family things). The devastation we saw was mind boggling. My Battman is gone to the Simi fire, he called a little bit ago to say the columns are standing up, which could be both good and bad. Santa Ana's in the area finally calming down, but then there is the threat of the onshore flow turning it and running it back into Santa Clarita. I know most of you are ready for your SO/family to come home, but if you could see what I see you would be happy he/she his helping.

On the top of the nob closest to my little part of the FS world I work,
To the East Smoke, dark and hazy starting in Sunland.
To the West, Huge columns of smoke rising, and the threat of cresting into the San Fernando Valley.
And listening to the scanner, I finally gave up and turned it off. I'm looking forward to going home tonight, and the possibility of getting the time to pop into chat, but I have lots to do, pick up the kid, get feed for critters, etc.

I know it is hard on everyone being with out their SO, But as of right now, things are not looking on the bright side here, and We can use all the help we can get. As for the comment made on shake roofs/clearances, So Calif has the Best Fire Prevention Programs in all of the states (yes this is My opinion based on my SO coming home from assignments over the past 12 years and telling the stories of people just clearing an area to build on and not having any clearance at all in other states). Many, Many communities here are involved in the Firewise efforts. And yes there are still people who do not adequately do a clearance, or still have a shake roof (older homes, owned by Elderly or people on fixed incomes that cannot afford to have them re-roofed). I know that there are many citations given every year in different fire districts for lack of clearances. If they are not done, then the fire district goes in does the clean up then places a lean on the home. As for the shake roofs, Maybe the State should step in implement a special fund (low income, federal grant, something, yeah I know Calif. is already in money trouble, but it is a thought) to help people re-roof their homes, especially those in a High Fire danger area.

If the fire in Crestline makes it to the bug kill, it won't matter who has what clearance or roof, the fire will go to a crown fire and be in Big Bear before anyone can say , I told you so.

My heart and prayers goes out to everyone in San Bernardino, Simi, Crestline and San Diego Co that has lost so much. And my prayers are with all the FF's and their families . Lets all pray for the winds to die, the temps to fall, and the fog to roll in.
(sorry about the ramble, but I'm a little tired)

firecookie
10/27 r-6,

There are 90 Strike Teams of engines en route from AZ and
NV, plus the National guard being called up. The problem is that
resources are still 3-12 hours away.

Things are a bit of a zoo, to say the least. We have had handcrews
arriving. More overhead teams are coming on as well. That should help a
lot.

I heard this morning that the fires in San Diego County alone have the
potential to go to 500,000 acres. I don't need to tell you that you
don't get fires that big down here without a lot of interface homes in
between.

Then there's the approaching end of the foehn winds - the Santa Anas.
If the reversing onshore flow is too strong, chances are the fires to the
north and east of San Berdu (Old Fire) will head east, up into the mountain
communities. If that happens and they get into the beetle and drought
killed timber around Crestline, heaven help all of us.

NorCal Tom
10/27 Websites are up on CDF for the fires under their jurisdiction. I've updated the Southern California Fires web page.

Also updated the Jobs page and the 0462 and 0455 wildland firefighter jobs pages. Ab.
10/27 heard warm springs ihc on way down south
wondering if any oregon contract resources are ordered or on way?

r-6
10/27 Just spotted this piece in www.worldnetdaily.com/ it's about some of
the things that were talked about not so long ago.

Lots of strike teams out of the bay area down south. It's a bad situation
and my heart goes out to those affected. As for all the folks on the fire
lines and those who back them up, watch out and go home in one piece.

Retired L.A.V.E.
10/27 From Firescribe, photos and slide shows:

www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/multimedia.html#

Check the Fire News page. The death toll has risen. Be Safe, All. Ab.
10/26 Here's another link for the Old Waterman Fire, aka the OLD Fire.

http://rimoftheworld.net/

Be sure to check out the 3-D views. They haven't been updated, but will be pretty interesting when the fires are over.

www.calmast.org/mast/public/default.htm

SoCal Capt

Thanks, I incorporated those links into the Southern California Fires page. Ab.
10/26 Fire in Butte Creek Canyon..100 acres.. 70 percent contained.. containment at
0800 tomorrow..1 structure lost.. 8 outbuildings. 1 minor injury to crew member.
NEU has "0" CDF engines left in it's unit.. LMU has only 2, Butte sent local gov
ST to San Berd today.

Dave
10/26 Some media coverage on the Simi Fire. It actually was an extension of the Val Verde (Verdale) Fire in LACo. When it blew into VNC, it was given a new incident number and they were off to the races.

On the Ventura County Star Web site:
"Simi Valley fire chars 80,000 acres"

Hunter

Thanks, Hunter. Check out the Southern CA Fires page with the links to info on those two fires there. Ab.
10/26 Walker's Type 2 IMT will be transitioning with Mortier's Type 1 IMT on the Old Fire tomorrow morning at 0600 hours.

NorCal Tom
10/26 To all of you who are on the lines in Southern California, or have loved ones there, please know our hearts and prayers go out to all of you. Please know that as you battle the fronts and flanks, we too are fighting in the Halls of Congress to get the recognition, pay and benefits you all deserve.

Stay Safe

Casey Judd
Business manager
Federal Wildland Fire Service Assn.
10/26 Ab,

MSNBC is reporting 14 deaths now. Very few details though.

www.msnbc.com

Everyone be safe out there!
-Cat

This link has a slideshow and video clip.
Cat, I'll echo that, BE SAFE. What are an escape route and a safety zone under these conditions? Overhead, pull your people off if you need to! Ab.
10/26 As0f 1530, the Grand Prix fire site says that the Grand Prix and Old fires have merged!! This is a fire front of 40 miles, all of it urban interface!

Heads up everyone, remember LCES.

- MJ
10/26 We are getting rumors of 5-7 fatalities on the SO.Cal fires, We knew
about the 2 earlier, but any info?

- MJ

I heard 6 earlier today. Two were seniors (on the Old Fire) who had stress-related heart attacks. Two are thought to have died when their car got burnt over on one of the San Diego fires, I think the Cedar Fire. I haven't heard the specifics on the last 2.

Wow, there are more being reported now than 6. I just searched the Fire News Page under Wildfire and got this AP release via ABC News: Eight Dead in San Diego County Wildfire. Doesn't give details, though.

"Eight Deaths Reported in One San Diego County Wildfire, Bringing Overall Toll in California to 11"

Ab.
10/26 Are there a couple of incidents going in the North State?

Wondering

We're having redflag warnings all up and down the state. There have been starts in Redding today and yesterday in Willow Creek, Gasquet, Hoopa, Shasta, and Fort Ord that I have heard about through the grapevine. None have become large incidents because they haven't shown up on National Sit Report.

Take a look at the North Ops Sit Report from yesterday. Yep, there are the 2 on the Six Rivers NF and the one at Hoopa. The Shasta fire (called the Olinda) was probably one of the 27 CDF fires reported, although that one went to 50 acres.

What about today, Readers? Ab.
10/26 What happens to all the horses and dogs and cats when a big fire comes?

Amy

Amy, families are evacuating their pets and animals. When the fire threatens, the authorities (sometimes the law, sometimes firefighters and sometimes other authorities) go around announcing that people should evacuate. Sometimes they announce by loud speaker, sometimes they knock on doors. Residents have been watching and waiting to find out when they should go. They gather up their pets, many put them in pet carriers and put them in their cars or trucks along with family members.

Ranchers and people with horses often get notice early so they can move their big animals out of harm's way. Some businesses with extra trailers loan them to people who don't have enough. People share. People help. Amy, don't worry about the animals. The authorities, families and the firefighters will do the best they can to protect them.

It is important for you to follow the adults' directions. If you follow directions, you can help us all. Children do not go back for pets. Let the adults, especially the firefighters and other authorities make the decisions about what is safe. Sometimes pets who get left behind find a safe place to survive a fire. It will all turn out OK in the end.

Hang in there Amy. When we're done with this current bunch of bad fires, read up and plan with your family for what you can do to make your home fire safe and what you can do to be ready in case you have to evacuate. Ask your teacher to let you study it in school. I am sure many kids could learn alot about how to BE PREPARED. Good motto.

Ab.
10/26 My husband is down on the fires in So. Cal. I think it is much more nerve
wracking when I can watch the whole thing on T.V. I'll turn it off for awhile
and then I'm in shock when I turn it on again and see how much bigger it's
gotten and how many other fires have started. I feel so sad for everyone
who has lost their homes, but also kind of mad at all those people who don't
have clearances around their home, have wood shake roofs, etc.. I guess
they think that a fire will never get near them or something. It boggles
my mind for sure??.

-Cat
10/26 Pictures, fantastic, I've never seen such great shots! I'm an old NC State Forest Ranger & O-1 spotter pilot and my blood is is rising!! Maybe you might want some free labor!

The 5 & 10 ton AWD Military 3 axle dual fuel trucks, make super water tankers. D.O.D gives them to Fire Departments here in NC plus civilians buy them on bid.

Tommy

Welcome Tommy. Ah, the enthusiasm of a first-time poster. Ab.
10/26 From Firescribe, Fire Maps & Satellite Images:

NIFC's Large Fire Map

Geomac: http://geomac.usgs.gov/#
Click on wildfire mapping then you can jump to the fire of interest by
selecting it in the top right window.

NOAA 1 Km Visible Satellite Loop - S. Cal
Takes a moment to load, but look at those animated columns!
10/26 Ab, some info on who provides the web incident information.

For those who are interested, the CDF website says the following:

"The agency with jurisdiction is the lead and has command over all aspects of the incident. That includes the lead on disseminating information concerning the incident, including fire information phone numbers and media interviews. That also includes Incident websites."

It is my understanding that if a county or a federal agency has the "lead" on a fire with unified command, the info won't be posted on the cdf website, but cdf's incident site will link to the incident website of the lead agency. If the county (Ventura Co, LA Co, etc) doesn't have one and arrangements haven't been made, oh well....

CDF Sue
10/26 Was there an OES engine working near Lytle Creek (Grand Prix Fire)
that got burned over? I'm hearing that most structure firefighters have
never seen anything like this fire behavior. Also hearing some complaints
from CDFers near the fire that they're not being used because of politics.
Why not use the closest and most experienced?

SoCal FF

No one was hurt. Ab.
10/26 I have been working on a short southern CA fire list that has a link at the top of this table.
Southern California Fires

If anyone knows of an incident/information website for the Simi Incident, please let me know. The Ventura Co Fire Dept and CDF share command, but it is not reported yet at the CDF incident site. Reportedly, 47,150+ acres have burned since it began. Wow. Just found out that this "Simi Incident" was split off from the Verdale Fire. The Verdale is now designated for the fire N of hwy 126 (LA Co oversight) and the Simi Incident is S of hwy 126 (Ventura Co and CDF oversight).

There were also several new fires overnight in the San Diego area. If anyone has link information to an incident website for any of those, I'd appreciate getting them. We're getting some inquiries and comments from the Public requesting information, I am not posting them here.

I will update the acreage on these twice daily and report any additional good links for getting information. You'd think that LA Co and Ventura Co would have sites where live information was available for such a situation as this. If they're in charge, they should be providing info to the public via all media channels.

For alerts of new fires and simple info on the incidents as they impact firefighters, check the South Ops News and Notes site.

Ab.
10/26 To the public reading here:

I can recommend a good book for preparing for the unthinkable.
Living with Wildfires: Prevention, Preparation and Recovery
by Janet C. Arrowood
Excellent.

Tahoe Terrie

I agree, a good book. A little late for some people caught up in it. Perhaps others will take heed. Ab.
10/26 Santa Ana Winds:

Long time lurker here...worked on the Roblar 2 fire.
STAY SAFE!!!
Do I need to say more? Oh yeah...
STAY SAFE!!!

TV
10/26 0600 Update on the OLD FIRE burning at the north end of the city of San Bernardino (from the 209): Walker's Type II Incident Management Team is on it.

12,000 acres estimated burned
5% contained
evacuations of mountain communities and San Bernardino (aka San Berdu) are continuing and we're trying to prevent the spread into north San Berdu
Two stress-related deaths of elderly people have been reported.

Communities at risk
within 12 hours: Crest Forest, Rim Forest, Running Springs, Highland and Sky Forest;
within 24 hours: Lake Arrowhead, Blue Jay and Cedar Glen
within 48 hours: Green Valley Lake and Arrowbear

Residences at risk= 24,000, damaged= 7, estimated destroyed= 200
Commercial Property at risk= 500, estimated destroyed= 10

Current Weather Conditions
Wind Speed: 25 mph
Temperature: 75
Wind Direction: NNE
Relative Humidity: 14

Weather Conditions Tomorrow
Wind Speed: 50 mph
Temperature: 100
Wind Direction: NNE
Relative Humidity: 8-14
Foehn winds or Santa Anas, combined with heavy fuel about says it all.
If the winds shift, fire could be driven toward communities with drought and disease stressed timber intermixed with thousands of homes.

Resources on the fire:
Crews: (SR=Single Resource, ST= Strike Team)
3 state SR Type 1 crews, 7 state ST Type 1 crews
2 fed SR Type 2 crews
Helos:
2 Type 1
6 Type 2
1 Type 3
Engines:
9 USFS SR, 4 USFS ST
5 state SR, 3 state ST
4 BLM SR
5 county SR, 4 county ST
7 other SR, 15 other ST
Dozers:
1 state, 3 private
Water Tenders:
2 USFS
13 Private
5 Other
171 Overhead
Air Resources:
7 Airtankers
2 Trkco
Total= 917

SoCal CDF
10/25 I hope they are getting people out from in front of the fire, the winds
are supposed to continue all night and go to 50 mph tonight after 11 PM.
Today some were clocked at 43 mph. The Red Flag Warning extends
through Sunday.

Be safe everyone,
JJ
10/25 The media finally got some info out on the Old Fire.

SantaMariaTimes.com

WashingtonPost.com

The new fire was in the same area as a 1980 arson that killed four, destroyed 325 homes and scorched more than 23,600 acres of forest and brush land.

Grim conditions in a land that has historic