"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
December, 2003
Home of the Wildland FireFighter

DATE
SUBJECT    (Previous Archive: Nov-03)

Return to Archives Page
12/31 Happy New Year Everyone!!!

Even back in 1971, Federal Firefighters had a tough time expressing the dangers and unique challenges of their occupations. Check out what Richard Nixon had to say...... Even a past U.S. President was against firefighter reform..... but the "BILL" still passed.

www.nixonfoundation.org/Research_Center/1971_pdf_files/1971_0004.pdf (pdf file)

Also, I don't know if this has been passed around yet.......

www.rppi.org/firefightingalternative.shtml and
www.rppi.org/privatefirefighters.shtml interesting reading if you haven't seen it yet....

Take care all, and may all of your wishes this NEW YEAR come true... and STAY SAFE!!

Lobotomy
12/31 HAPPY NEW YEAR!
From Mimbres, NM

Fire Cache Girl
12/31 Thanks for the info on the heliwell --

Has anyone ever ordered one (Heliwell) or seen one in action?

Thanks,
-AXE
12/31 Ab,

I'm a former jumper and now an attorney in Lewiston, Idaho. One of the jumpers I worked with has a younger brother who is also an attorney. He injured his knee and got hosed by the Forest Service. While in law school he brought his own case, and after 12 or 13 years has prevailed on all but one issue. After reading Evans' post, I called him, and he is willing to provide some advice. If Krstofer would like to contact me offline, I'll do whatever I can to help.

SR
12/31 NAMERIF 1, You said... "Remember that God is among us! You do have a reason
for this ordeal."

Telling someone who is injured that there is a God-given reason for his ordeal without
knowing his beliefs... is stupid, at best and downright mean, at worst. Have a little respect!

Sorry for this guy's insensitivity, Krs.
Hang in there Bro.
Todd
12/31 AXE

The tank you are referring to is stocked in a few of the Regional Fire Cache's, I know R-6 has at least three and I think R-5 has a few. It's 10,000 gallons and in R-6 is transported on a trailer and usually comes with a person to help set it up. Give your local Regional Cache a call.

One of the RS's (now retired)

AXE, I'm sending you some more info from "2horse" with a link that might be helpful. Ab.
12/31 John McGuire,

You probably already have a plan, but here's something we did last year for our crew:

We created a "mock fire" based on the field exercise used in S-244, Field Observer. I
don't have any of the pictures we used, but the Field Observer class might be a good
place to look. We included taking weather observations, using a GPS, and map and
compass work in our exercise, along with the fire behavior pictures (hung in trees).

It sounds like a cool class!

Hollis
12/31 RE: Krstofer Evans
After reading your comments about your injuries, I can feel for you. I had a ruptured L-5 disc in 1999. It was a painful ordeal at the time, but nothing compared to what you had to endure. It seems ironic that our democracy demands immediate payment for workman's comp. payments on time as an employer. Most of the fire contractors understand this. I have had a audit by the IRS, which came clean. Although I had to spend three weeks at their "F"'n call. My point is, that you are no different than the rest of us when it comes to our government caring for us. Even the veterans seem to be put on the back burner. It seems, that from your comments you have done your part. I can say that you need to have legal representation write some letter for you. It helped in some of my procedures for reimbursement. I'm sure that the ones who read this page understand us firefighters. Remember that God is among us! You do have a reason for this ordeal. Nothing is ever easy when you have to rely on government. I can say you will be eventually covered. We just exist in a government that is reactionary and not progressive. I wish you the best, but never give up!
NAMERIF 1
12/31 Ab......Here is a site that may help John McGuire and Ian Smith. It is the
NIFC page www.nifc.gov. They need to look at the Wildland Photo Gallery
link. Other items on the page may be of benefit also. Each agency logo at
the bottom of this page brings the user to that agencies home page here at
NIFC.

Happy Holidays and a great job on all the work you do!

BLM Engines

There is some offer of help behind the scenes as well. Thanks for that, too. Ab.
12/31 Hi all.

To see how we are progressing toward 2004, go here:

www.timeanddate.com/counters/multicountdowna.html

Have a Happy, and prosperous New Year.

Hunter

You too, Hunt. Ab.
12/31 What NOT to do:

So a few of you may remember me. A few more may have learned of me recently,
through the recent story in Wildland Firefighter magazine.
Either way, here’s the quick and dirty:
2nd saw Plumas Hotshots, ‘01
Called to the Redbird RD, Daniel Boone NF, Kentucky (R8) around about 25 Oct 01.
Apparently they had a problem with arson.
31 Oct 01, 15.30. Struck by a falling Black Locust snag, while cutting line on
the Poplar Log fire. 30 some broken bones, including a burst fracture of T 4/5,
damaging my spinal cord, and leaving me permanently “confined” to a wheelchair.
I can no longer feel or move anything below my chest. I gained a small hunk of
“hardware” implanted into my back, made up of a couple sticks of titanium and
what look like a shitload of drywall screws. (Here’s an x-ray: http://krstofer.org/ebay.jpg)
Spent 5 months in rehab, first at Cardinal Hill in Lexington Ky, then at Craig
Hospital in Denver, Co.
Finally came home after a 14 to 21 day assignment in April of ’02.

I then began my experiences with the fine group of individuals in the Federal
Office of Workman’s Compensation, San Francisco office.
I was told, “buy the small things (less than $5,000) you need, submit the
receipts, and we will reimburse you.
They gave me a card with an address in London, KY and a claim number, to use as
my “insurance card”.
Said card works to open Dr’s doors, get my regiment of 6 different pills,
(2x/day, every day) and for miscellaneous ER visits. If you’re interested, 4 of
those 6 pills are painkillers, and the last two are antispasmodics. The only
feeling I have below the injury is pain, and those regions spasm uncontrollably
at times. Figures, huh?
Anyway, I have been buying things such as wheelchair tires, casters, (the little
front tires) specialized cushions, (built to avoid the risk of pressure sores)
rubber gloves, (don’t ask what those are for) a stand frame, a tempur-pedic
mattress, (again, to avoid pressure sores) and various other sundry items here
and there.

I’ve been submitting these receipts, first through my rehab councilor (hired by
OWCP) and in the last couple months on my own, since April of ‘02

I have also started submitting travel vouchers for reimbursement of expenses
while visiting my various doctors. (Neurology, urology, manual therapy, and
general practice)

Since April of ’02, I have received less than $200 in reimbursement. My receipts
add up to over $8,000. Why only 200 bucks? Susan Trist (my rehab councilor) and
I keep getting the run-around. OWCP says the receipts were submitted on the
wrong form, (the right one is apparently a CA-915, which we used) or said
receipts weren’t submitted with the appropriate CPT codes. (What the hell’s a
CPT code? www.aacap.org/clinical/cptcode.htm) The book(s), which I need
to look up said codes, vary in price from 44.95 on up at
www.medicalcodingbooks.com/cpt/. I also find it interesting that the form
CA-915 has no column for a CPT code, and yet I need to submit said code for each
one of my receipts.

My travel vouchers? I’m up to over a thousand dollars worth of travel, also
denied. Because I left from and went to an unauthorized location. Apparently my
military and civilian home of record is not an authorized place from which to
begin a trip to the doctor, and a medically authorized doctor visit is not an
authorized place to finish my travel.

All medical expenses for which I have submitted receipts have been previously
authorized by the SF OWCP Office. All travel has also been medically authorized
by said office. Now, however, when it comes time to pay up, they seem to be
bending over backwards while trying to find ways NOT to pay me.

Supposedly all my medical bills are to be covered. I have recently began
receiving collection notices from my doctors, as they have not been paid. This
will shortly begin to effect my credit rating.

On 12.16.03 I went to the pharmacy to pick up my monthly allotment of pills,
Oxycontin, Percocet, Neurontin, Celebrex, Ditropan, and Baclofen. The pharmacy
told me I could not have said pills, as they had not received payment from my
insurance. Nice huh?

So the moral of this story is thus: Beware out there on the line. Pay attention.
For if you are injured in a permanent way, you do not want to go through what I
am going through right now.

You may be sitting there thinking, “This shit won’t happen to me”. Well, I
didn’t think it would happen to me either. I was simply doing my job, and now I
find myself being bent over when it comes time for reimbursement.

Krstofer Evans

http://krstofer.org/
http://crew13.com

Krs, if there's anything we can do - contact legislators, etc - please let us know. Perhaps there's a reader out there who has knowledge of how to work with the system to make it more responsive. In our experience, OWCP red tape seems designed to make people "go away" as soon as possible. Too bad it cannot be the support that it should have been created to be. Ab and Ab.
12/31 Mollysboy, I'm pretty sure that "another CDF BC" wasn't directing an attack at the "enviros"..... He was probably just expressing the problems that he or she is currently facing. CDF faces the same "enviro" problems that every land manager does.

All of us on the Fed side know that the "enviros" are a check and balance system. Sometimes the scale slants towards one side or the other. In the end, the balance system works out in most cases... sometimes not.... I agree with Mollysboy.... the judicial branch is important.... but equally important are the legislative and executive branches...... All three of these also serve as a check and balance system. THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

Maybe, some of us who have been around for awhile (20+ years for me, 30+ for you), should sit back and listen to the comments and not get so easily excited and let people fully express their points. I know I get stirred up every once in awhile (every other day!!)... sometimes I get down right pissed off. But when I go back and read the posts, I realize that almost all of us are agreeing....... just agreeing differently..... We all have different points of view. We all support wildland fire in one form or another.

SoCalCapt
12/31 Has anyone else hard of/seen a piece of equipment
called a heli-well? My understanding is it's a large
trailor type water source. I'm just trying to find
out some information on if these exist.

Thanks,

AXE
12/31 Just a little info among my firefighter friends.......

Federal wildland firefighters are currently classified improperly in many different job series. The most common job series are: 0462-Forestry Technician, 0455- Range Technician, 0460 - Forester, 0454 - Rangeland Management Specialist, and 0401 - Natural Resources Professional (New title for this series).

Other series that wildland firefighters have and continue to be classified under and receive firefighter retirement coverage are:

0018 - Safety and Occupational Health Management Series
0081 - Firefighter (DoD only)
0101 - Social Science Series
0301 - Miscellaneous Administration and Program Series
0340 - Program Management Series
0391 - Telecommunications Series
0404 - Biological Science Technician
0408 - Ecology Series
0470 - Soil Science Series
0486 - Wildlife Biology Series
0499 - Student Trainee
0801 - General Engineering Series
1301 - General Physical Science Series
1515 - Operations Research Series
1670 - Equipment Specialist Series
1701 - General Education and Training Series
1712 - Training Instruction Series
1801 - General Inspection, Investigation, and Compliance Series
2101 - Transportation Specialist Series
2150 - Transportation Operations Series
2181 - Aircraft Operation Series

and Wage Grade (Federal Wage System)
3502 - Laboring
5701 - General Equipment Operation
5703 - Motor Vehicle Operator
5716 - Engineering Equipment Operator

All of these series have applied for and received firefighter retirement by the Federal Land Management agencies.
Lobotomy
12/31 Hi all

This is to add to what the CDF BC had to say.
I have been fighting fire in so cal for 22 years and let me say this. the enviros are a major problem. they want trees and forests AND clean air and water. well WHO doesnt? but the problem is, we have to help mother nature to do this.

we keep putting fires out and guess what folks? lightning fires need to burn and arson fire need suppression. the thing is, we have to do fuels reduction and the enviros keep tying that up in court. look at nor cal. they have a worse problem that down south but they have just kept trying to get around it and the enviros keep blocking them. so as to what all you folks that do not live and fight fire in south zone CA or north zone CA or should I say region 5, dont get your hearts all in a bind because we are here to do a job and if it burns, did you start it? if not, then do what you can and watch the big fire go.

as for all the people that care about their forests that do not work in them, let us do what needs to be done clearing brush logging out overgrown stands of timber and use more prevention techniques instead of suppression.

Sincerely
9044
12/30 Ab....further to John McGuire's request for visuals. I've just finished
giving a 10-day course on Fire Management, Behavior and Ecology for our
local Community College's Forest Technician program and would also
appreciate any info/pics/etc. that I could incorporate into the next course
(still 2 years away, but....). Links to websites, documentation or any other
info would all help with my objectives of education and training people to
be safe in a dangerous environment.

Would it be easiest to post somewhere on the Wildland Fire site or can info
be forwarded with little hassle?

Thanks,

Ian Smith
Northern Lights College
Chetwynd, BC

We can post or forward if someone sends in materials. Photos available here can be used for training purposes if you have any requests. Ab.
12/30 Mellie...the independent study you cited: "Command Decisions During
Catastrophic Interface Wildfire", was created by a BC from Orange County
Fire, Mike Rohde. A few interesting observations about his report;

1. It was completed prior to the 2003 Southern California wildfires and
predicted most of the events that came to pass
2. The Lessons Learned study confirms most of the findings in the Rohde
study and reinforces some changes are needed.

Reading both studies, the first thing that comes to mind is that we need to
rethink how we incorporate structure protection into ICS. What is the role
of the Structure Protection Specialist? And if structure protection is
generally considered to be "initial attack" and is a bad thing, something to
be organized away....how can you still call it initial attack if you're still
doing it in a very organized fashion for 3-4 or 5 days in a row like we did
in Southern California? Seems like the current organization doesn't match
the facts. Some changes are needed!

Local Government Chief
12/30 RM:

In July 1993, NWCG defined Entrapment as

"a situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire behavior-related, life threatening position where escape routes or safety zones are absent, inadequate or have been compromised. An entrapment may or may not include the use of a fire shelter for its intended purpose. These situations may or may not result in injuries. They include 'near misses'."

While it isn't exactly a "burnover" definition, it's close??

Dick Mangan
12/30 Heard that the Cramer Report will be released in mid-January 2004.

Aberdeen
12/30 Greetings.

I'll be teaching a college level (semester long) course on forest fire
management. The course is designed to instruct students not only on
wildland fire suppression techniques but also the use of prescribed
fire. I've intended for the course to be very hands on. However, it is
difficult to test students on hands-on applications. One thing I do
have an interest in is showing them pictures of different scenarios and
having them describe the situations. For example, show a poorly formed
smoke column and have them describe atmospheric stability for that day.
Another could simply be a picture of a watch out situation and have them
describe what the actual watch out situations are in the picture. I'm
trying to find a source of such images. If you know someone or
somewhere that I can find such images, I'd be much obliged.

Thank you in advance for any direction.

Sincerely:
John McGuire
Auburn University, AL

Readers, does anyone have particular training photos that might match John's needs? We'd be happy to pass them on. Ab.
12/30 Ab:

Just a short note to you and your staff .
Thankyou for giving to all of us a place to learn, communicate and share of ourselves.
Have a happy and prosperous new year.

Thanks :
johnny

Thanks for the thanks, johnny. The staff <haw haw> and I appreciate it. Ab.
12/30 Hey Ab,

I was wondering what is up..... I have sent in two post inquiring about info on the Cramer
fire fatalities and haven't seen either one of them appear on "they said". I am wondering if
the info is so top secret that we can't even discuss it on the board??

Just checking
firepup21

No conspiracy, just on the road with a million junkmails in the box. Ab.
12/30 Az. Trailblazer.

I am Levi's mom and I have a copy of the picture. . Ab can give you our email address
and when we hear from you I will scan it off for you.

Thanks for remembering.

KB
12/30 Tommy, you were looking for a sharpening guide, try the NFES Catalog,
NFES 0510 - GAUGE, sharpening - fireline handtools, Page 101. cost is
$20.06.

WP
12/30 BRAVO!!! So well said! You are expressing widespread sentiments and frustration of the old (but post 10 AM policy) echelon of wildland firefighters so exactly, so perfectly!

Thank you so much for the time you spent in SoCal! A career event, huh?

Can we freely share your post with the entrenched bureaucracies we work for who still just don't get it?

NMAirBear
12/30 The comments that "Another CDF BC" offered on the Firestorm Summary were interesting to read, and I found myself mostly agreeing with her/him, right up until the very end. Then, her/his comments about the need to ".....put the enviros in their proper place" really set me off. Last time I looked (and judging from the Court rulings that I read), the "enviros" are in exactly the right place: they read the LAW, and ask the Agencies to follow the LAW. When the Agencies don't, they go to the 3rd branch of our government (the Judicial) and ask them to forget about the current political situation that has the Administration and Legislative branches ignoring the LAWS that they passed and signed, but instead to make the Agencies uphold them!

My 30+ years of experience on the Fed side of Fire Management have allowed me to work in a wide variety of States, under many political climates (with both left-wing Hippies, and right-wing Red Neck Bushies). What I've seen is that folks who are "anti-Enviro" totally support fuels treatments UNTIL you try it in their backyards. They want their trees, their privacy, don't want smoke from prescribed fires during the Spring BBQ season, are concerned about escaped fires, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera! Long-haired hippies and 3-piece suited Republican lawyers are arm-in-arm, marching lock-step against fire folks that want to reduce the fuel load, make the homes safer, and most importantly, reduce unnecessary risks to firefighters.

Maybe the people that should be "....put in their proper place" are the homeowners who chose to build in fire-prone areas (in California, New Mexico, Long Island, Australia or Florida), and expect us firefighters to risk our lives because of their stupidity! Specifically addressing the concerns about what happened in SoCal........has anyone out there never heard about the Fire & Flood cycle down there?? Is this something new since "Enviros" showed up on the scene? When I was sent to large fires in SoCal in the 1960's and 70's, the diversion canals were already in place: A long time before NEPA ,the Endangered Species Act, Clean Air, Clean Water, etc. I've always read that it was a fact of life in that area for hundreds of years?

One last thought for "Another CDF BC" that has nothing to do with wildland fire, but lots to do with Quality of Life: it was probably those same "enviros" that prevented the Feds from drilling off the coast of SoCal. Would life be better for the folks in SoCal if those "enviros" from around the State and the rest of the US were put "....in their proper place"??

Mollysboy
12/30 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Ab.
12/29 We recently had a discussion about the definition of a burn over. I went to
the glossary to see what the definition was there but was unable to find
it. I think this is an important word that should be added to the glossary
of firefighter terms.

RM
12/29 AB-

I finished a quick read on the Firestorm summary (567 K pdf file) and found it quite interesting. I wonder really if management will seriously consider any of the findings, recommendations, or comments included.

I wasn't interviewed for the piece, but definitely identified with many of the observations. I would like to see a serious debate here on "they said it" about the perimeter control issue.

Having "been there" down south during the heat of things, I take issue with the concept that perimeter control was impossible. I saw first hand what limited, but well trained and experienced resources can do in a urban interface fire.

We can begin to make headway, but it takes a little imagination and the will to do it by those involved.

I agree that the ICS planning cycles were no match for this, given that, many STL's and local overhead put together working plans and implemented them, in spite of "the team."

As far as pre-plans go, I value them, but I saw a lot of people throwing their hands in the air as "hopeless" and not looking at the burning conditions directly in front of them. Yes, there were GIANT runs, but there were equally situations where handlines, dozers, and hoselays would work just fine-and they did.

Where those situations were observed and taken advantage of, the fire was stopped. Take a look at the maps and see for yourselves.

I-Zone training is teaching a bunch of our fire service to be "robots." Put your two lines on the ground, walk around your house, and your, "doing shit, man." I don't think so. Train your people instead on reflex time on how long it takes to get your "stuff" deployed and picked up. BE FLEXIBLE-not necessarily mobile (hard to describe and articulate). Have true "situational awareness."

Definitely get folks back in to the area to MOP UP the residual fires. Code 3 lights on in the driveway standing there IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. More smoking foundations to come doing that AGAIN.

4 firefighters on an engine is a must-WAY OVERDUE. We could have done a lot more where we were at. How come we can't get the politicians to figure this simple concept out. Need to sit them down in a room and run a loop of Fram oil filter commercials until they walk out chanting, "You can pay me now, or pay me later."

WHAT EXACTLY IS A STRUCTURE SPECIALIST? Can someone tell me what exactly that person identified on the 203 does?

800 megahertz frequencies are BS in this world, how did that happen? I believe we call that COMMUNICATIONS (isn't that one of the basic four food groups we operate on)? And don't tell me it's the wildland agencies job to conform to local government, it's the other way around, folks.

By the way, how is it you can check into a federal type 1 incident base and the first question (or form to fill out actually) is "have you had entrapment avoidance training, and if so, when?" What, excuse me? Come on people, this is what IS WRONG with the system-you're asking me that in OCTOBER IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?

Isn't that why we have training officers, fire captains, and training packages and hiring in the SPRING? By the way, spot on for addressing the "seasonal" issue. It has LONG past it's usefulness, full time, year round firefighters ASAP.

The work rest cycle comments were right on the money. Now there's a way to make friends in the community, tell the homeowner who's been out there "on the line" (in his front yard) for 72+ that "you" need to go off shift to get some rest after 12. This is where management is TOTALLY out of touch with reality. As you can see, many in the field and on the line weighed in appropriately on this issue-to their credit! I'm sure the management teams were quietly thankful too.

I liked the comment about running a 12 month fire season on an 8 month budget-THANK YOU, now let's get someone to do something about it. How can we lay off firefighters as we're getting the highest indices of the year and then days later try and send everyone to the fires?

One thing surely is true, these are agreeably the fires of the normal and future, they are not flukes. People better wake up and put the enviros in their proper place. How much damage to the environment has been done in Waterman Canyon as a result of these fires compared to what a planned fuel reduction project would have done?

I thought that's what you'd say.

One final thought, structure protection is putting the fire out. This is defined simply as "perimeter control."

Here's to a lively debate about this document.

"Another CDF BC"
12/29 Hi All

I saw the picture of Bravo 10 posted on the site and thought it would be
nice to share a little background on the crew. They are a mexican AD crew
out of Tecate hosted by the Cleveland National Forest. The forest put the
crew through an extensive training process prior to the 2003 fire season,
and provides a crew boss whenever the crew is activated. The forest used
them several times during this past fire season, and has gotten great
reviews about their work. Bravo 10 was an excellent addition to our
toolbox.

Socal Dispatcher
12/28 famous Prineville Hotshot photo

Ab,

I am in need of some help. Back in '95, I had a blown up photo of the July 4th 1994 picture of the Prineville IHC framed and a bunch of my folks (my NPS days) had a plaque inscribed "we will never forget" placed on the picture frame.

Unfortunately, someone else has decided that this picture means a little more for themselves than for all to see in my office. This wouldn't really have bothered me as much, but due to the fact that Kathy Beck, Levi Brinkley, and Tami Bickett, were personal friends of mine, I take it a little personal.

My reasoning for writing this email is that I am hoping that someone out there may have a copy of the print or even have it on file somewhere in their computer and wouldn't mind emailing it to me in a jpeg file. My plan is to replace the photo, engraving and frame included and place it upon the front office's wall.

Any help would be great!

Happy Holidays to all!
AZ Trailblazer

Ya goin'ta put an alarm on it? Ab.
12/28 Does any one out there know where I can find a forestry sharpening jig, for
sharpening fire tools. Western Fire Equipment does not seem to be around
any more.

Tommy
12/28 Emergency cell phone numbers

Here's the real thing, the links are compliments of Kelly:
www.911dispatch.com/911_file/mobilenumbers.html
There are other links to lists at the bottom of the page.

and more info on everything you wanted to know from wireless 911 history... to everything else about how the system works and the inherent SNAFUs...
www.911dispatch.com/911_file/wireless911.html

Ab.
12/28 just heard from a friend in Louiseeeeeeeannna
"Thanks for this info. However, the State of Louisiana has the wrong info.
We ARE 9-1-1 statewide and the number listed for emergencies is only for the Causeway Bridge Police over Lake Pontchartrain. That's only 26 miles. So, I have to wonder how many other of these are incorrect?
I printed it out and put one in my glove compartment in my SUV. Just in case...........

someone from Sarasota, FL, not a FF or emergency services type, implied all of FL uses 911.

Maybe that list needs to be vetted for errors or potential user access, sorry!

Northzone5

Vetting sounds good. In this day and age of all risk and homeland security, it seems like such an emergency cell phone list should have already been vetted. AAA? Anyone know? Ab.
12/28 Ab-

In Texas 911 also works, instead of getting the state PD youll get the local PD or county SO. They can normally respond faster than the State Troopers can, plus they can dispatch the local FD and EMS faster. In a car wreck you have that Golden hour to get the victim to the Hospital.

Fireman Phill
12/27 Here's a new report I came across today, available via the Lessons Learned Center.

It's a 567 K pdf file.
Southern California Firestorm 2003: An Information Collection Team (ICT) Report for the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center

also this 119 K independent study
Command During Catastrophic Interface Wildfires

The Lessons Learned Center can be found on the links page, the last link under safety. Interesting website to browse.

Mellie
12/27 Ab-

My cousin is a Jersey state trooper, and passed this
info along:

In addition to calling 911, motorists in New Jersey
can call #77 from their cell phones to report
aggressive/dangerous drivers. However, it is illegal
in New Jersey to operate a cell phone while driving,
unless a headset is used, so be careful.

JerseyBoy
12/27 < glad to see "Aberdeen" thinks beyond the numbers programmed into his/her personal cell phone when crossing area code boundaries... others may not, TY for pointing that out. heads up to all: O/S FFs en route to a fire assignment, or joe-business traveler/vacationer/sr citizen in their motorhome - anyone who may read this website.

addendum: my WFF t-shirt and lapel pins arrived in the mail today - the
t-shirt is somewhat larger than anticipated; I ordered XL to be on the safe side. I will proudly wear a larger than normal shirt until I order a smaller size, or grow into this one <snicker

Best wishes for a safer NEW YEAR ALL

noname
12/27 From Firescribe:

The official update on the Baron crash at Missoula MT:
"the aircraft subsequently collided with an open pasture"

www.ntsb.gov

Glad everyone is OK. Ab.
12/26 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Will the person who sent the Mendocino IHC outreach announcement please resend it? I am working off my laptop and don't have the email available. Ab.
12/26 Yeah, I'd like a list of emergency phone numbers for when I go "out-of-state" on assignments: but, y'all remember to put in the area code too, please. See, there are a few of us who regularly read/lurk/contribute to this WebSite that live in States with only ONE Area Code (Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, etc.....). We always give a simple 7 digit phone number, 'cause all our Home Boys and Girls know that the Area Code is the same state-wide! The folks in States that have 2 area codes like Orygun (503 & 541) would probably like it too.

Damn.....did I give away a secret: there are still Western forested States that have large wildfire problems, yet less than 1,000,000 residents (except during deer & elk season.) and only need 1 Area Code to serve everyone??

Same thing goes for folks that send in posts dealing with "...FKU going on an assignment": thought part of the ICS game was to prefix the designator with the State identifier?? So, I ask myself, where is the Oklahoma FKU going....? Or, is it Florida FKU ?? Ah!! A New Jersey FKU unit!! I know for sure it's not in the WY/SD/MT/ND State designators.

All kidding aside........we're all part of a much bigger world these days, and need to remember that the reason ICS is a success is because it recognizes the uniqueness of everyone that comes to the wildfire scene, no matter what their point of origin.

Aberdeen

I posted Northzone5's message below before finishing the page of emergency cell phone numbers. (Got distracted by someone playing with a new present.) Anyway, see the emergency numbers page: link is in the next post. I think it's interesting that a number of states around the country without 911 have the same 800 phone number. What's with that? If there's a number for Hawaii, please send it in. That one wasn't on the list. Ab.
12/26 Ab,

Someone sent me a listing of important emergency phone numbers for various states,
it might be invaluable to those who travel out of state.

Northzone5

Thanks for the info. Here's the Emergency Cell Phone Numbers page. I put a link to it on the Links page, the first one under State. Ab.
12/26 Hello.

I was wondering if you might be able to help me find Adam Michael Jones. My husband's
son, he hasn't seen in 25 years.

I know he works fighting fires for Wildland. I believe he may be stationed in Eugene.

He's 30 years old. Adam has a young son, around 2 or 3.

If there is anyway you might be able to help or send this letter on to Adam I'd appreciate
very much.

I've tried all the net detective programs with no help.

Trying to reunite the father and son.

Thanks, Valencia Jones
Valencia@hevanet.com
12/26 From Firescribe:

Christmas present from the Feds, critical for fire rehab.
U.S. grant rescues state tree nursery
12/26 There are some bad mudslides in Old Waterman Canyon where the Old Fire was lit off by
some yahoo. If they catch him, I hope they credit him with the deaths there as well as with
the deaths on the fire.

Please be safe this holiday season, people.

SoCal CDF

Article on it:
Deadly Mudslides Rip Through Fire-Ravaged Areas

I added a Mudslide category to the Current Events list on the Fire News page. Ab.
12/26 To the Abs and all the Lurkers:

Merry Christmas,
and a Safe New Year...

E.A.Wright

(P.S.: Photo is Division Yankee, Winslow Fire, Targhee National Forest, August 2003)

Really nice firewhirl photo, Ed. I put it on the Fire 21 photo page. Ab.
12/26 Mexican Crew Photo:

me gustaria que publicaran esta foto de este grupo de bomberos forestales en Baja California, mexico "bravo10"

i like to publish this photo in your page, it's a mexican fire crew in Tecate, Mexico the crew name is "bravo10"

Luis P.

Welcome Luis. Muchas gracias por proporcionando la traducción al inglés. Puse su foto en el Handcrews 11 página de foto. Ab.
12/26 I posted two photos from Andrew H, one of CDF Engine-43 and one of a CDF engine crew dragging hose and making headway on a fire. Check the Engines 9 photo page. Ab.
12/25 Merry Christmas Everyone!

On duty for Christmas this year, hopefully a slow day.

Captain Emmett
12/25 How nice to wake up on a Christmas morning surrounded by my family. I hope
everyone else has as fine a day as I think we will have.

Todd
12/25 Merry Christmas Everyone!

NorCal Tom
12/24 Just after 7:00 A.M., December 7, 1941, two U.S. Army Privates, George E.
Elliott Jr. and Joseph L. Lockard were operating an Army radar installation
at Kahuku Point on the northern tip of Oahu, Hawaii, familiarizing
themselves with a new technology that could "see" 130 miles out to sea. It
was then that Elliott detected the Japanese naval aircraft sent to strike
the U.S. Navy Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Elliott and Lockard called in
a warning message to headquarters immediately. Headquarters told the
Privates to disregard what they thought they saw on their radar screens.
They were told that it was probably just a flight of B-17s that were
expected to arrive that morning. Elliott and Lockard continued to track the
radar signal for nearly an hour after that initial contact, right up to the
point that the bombs began dropping on the men, women, and ships at Pearl
Harbor. As devastating as that attack was, historians note that had the
Japanese Navy continued attacking like they had planned, the oil storage
facilities on Hawaii would have been destroyed as well, as it was, these
were untouched. If this had happened, the outcome of WWII might would have
been very different, the entire world might not have been the place that it
is today.

George E. Elliott Jr. died on Saturday, 62 yrs after the attack, he was 85.
Elliott's son, Tom, recounted that "He had a feeling of frustration that if
the warning had been heeded they could have at least got planes in the air
and lives could have been saved,". Said Tom, "He felt that way right up to
the day he died."

I've had the experience of being brushed aside when trying to warn or
inform others. I've also had the experience of doing that to myself,
telling myself things like, "It's probably nothing.", "I must have heard
wrong.", or "I'm sure they've got it covered."

There are mindless, unthinking things in this world like fire, flood,
storms, and earthquakes that seem determined to exterminate us.

There are also those with minds, who are thinking, and they have indicated
by statement and by action that they mean to do us harm.

These days, any one of us may find ourselves in the same position as
Elliott and Lockard. You might turn any corner and find a "radar screen"
staring you right in the face.

These are just some of they things that I hope I don't catch myself saying
this week:

That stalled car on the side of the road? I'm sure they have already called
for help.
That open security gate? I'm sure somebody just forgot to close it.
Somebody will be along.
The aircraft hasn't checked in yet? I'm sure they are just running late.
You think you smell something burning? It's probably nothing.
That suitcase by the baggage claim? They just forgot to pick it up.
What an odd person standing next to the ATM. I'll just find another one.
Danger? Relax, It's just a __________ . (insert anything, Mop-Up, training
exercise, spot fire, drill, false alarm, etc.)
The _________ always rattles when you do that. (insert anything,
helicopter, chainsaw blade, pulaski head, propeller, wing, pump, etc.)
Don't be a baby, It's probably just the flu.
They wouldn't be here if they didn't have the proper training.
I'm sure they saw it too. I mean c'mon, who could miss it.
I'm sure they'll turn up.
That's __________ !!! (insert anything, impossible, never happened before,
not very likely, silly, not feasible, etc.)

HERE'S HOPING AND PRAYING THAT THEY CURRENT SECURITY ALERT PROVES TO BE A
WARNING HEEDED RATHER THAN BRUSHED ASIDE.

Batchmaster
12/24 From JW, an article on the USFS Baron that went down at Missoula MT:

FAA Probes Missoula Plane Crash
12/24 FYI, a news release:

Kern County Fire Chief Appointed to State OES Fire Post

Northzone5

Congrats to Steve Gage. Picture of him (in blue) from 1999 on the BigBar Complex Photo page. Gage's CIIMT at the Pentagon following 9/11. Ab.
12/24 Here's a link to the guy, Michael Marks, who wrote that soldier poem posted on familysaid:
www.vietvet.org/mmsolchr.htm

Original Ab.

Thanks to DF for sending it in last week. Our thoughts and prayers are with those who serve our country around the world. Ab.
12/23 Boas Festas

QUERO DESEJAR-VOS UM FELIZ NATAL E UMAS BOAS ENTRADAS EM 2004.

E TUDO DE BOM PARA VOCÊS.

Antonio

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Happy celebrating.

I want to wish you a HAPPY CHRISTMAS and some good successes in 2004.

And I hope EVERYTHING goes well for you.

Antonio

Same to you Antonio. Boas Festas. Festive photo of their engine. Ab.
12/23 Thanks Lobotomy for the clarification on series 455/462. Leave it up to the Govie to make something
complex…that’s what they’re here for.

Happy Holidays and Semper Fi to any former jarheads out there.

L.
12/23 A USFS-leased twin engine A/C crashed on take-off from MSO at 8 PM last nite; sounds
like something mechanical broke at about 400 feet, on its way back to Redmond, OR. Neither
pilot was seriously injured. Details are sketchy right now. Santa was smiling on them!!

Dick Mangan

Santa and the fact that they are very practiced in getting out of their harnesses quickly. Ab.
12/22 Eric, you are about a month too late, 3 fingers is snowed in, or was last time the clouds parted. If you want to try, you most likely could get most of the way up--- but the ladders to the top are a real bear when covered with snow. Call the Darrington Ranger District at 360-436-1155 for the latest up to date info.

Watching Politely
12/22 G'Day Phil,

Nice to know I am not the only one who would like to get some fire experience outside of Aus. I have done a little bit of research and found out that US Visa laws are fairly restrictive. At the moment I am looking towards Canada as a more likely destination. I am not planning on trying the trip during 2004 but want to do all the research so I am prepared for 2005.

All the best to everyone over christmas both here in Aus and all those overseas.

Ab, is there a way Phil and I could exchange e mail addresses thru this sight without having it public?

noname

Phil, write in again, I'll put you in touch with each other. I no longer have your email addy. Ab.
12/22 Hi Abz,

FKU is sending various overhead and our OES rig to the coast this evening.

The wife says Santa Cruz shook pretty good, I did not even feel the quake in my neck of the woods.

And the news gets better, rain is forecast for the next 3 days!

Have a safe Christmas, all you wildlanders!

Captain Emmett
12/22 Sent in at 1530:

A 6.5 <Ricter scale earthquake> on the Central coast. Some buildings down in Paso Robles area.
Not a good thing. VNC USAR team enroute to San Luis Obispo to assist. Let's hope for the best.

VNC Dozer 3

Update: Check MSNBC. Ab.
12/21

[quote-Also heard some months ago that there's an AD IMT concept in the works. Now what kind of conflict of interest in hiring resources would that create? Tahoe Terrie quote]

Would you please expound on this.

Ab, Thank You for the wonderful web site, and all the work you do for keeping it going.

Dasher
12/21 Hi Matt,

My name is Phil I’m 19 and also a seasonal firefighter in the ACT <Australia>. After the last three fire seasons we’ve had here, I have decided that I would like to work on a seasonal basis. Over here for our summer, then over in the USA for their summer.

If you want to exchange any info let me know, because I still have lots questions and I’m sure you do, so we might be able to help each other out.

Phil.T

Phil and Matt and others who are asking questions about getting hired next season. Most everyone who hires on "use it or loose it" leave status right now. Not many are inclined to answer job questions. That season comes in January. Ab.
12/21 Pappy always told me:

You can do anything you think you're big enough to do, but if you screw-up, don't ask for help,
cause you already screwed up once by not asking for help in the first place!

Hilbille

Haw, haw, Hilbille, have good holidays, my friend. What was that old saying in fire about the "lesson" coming after the test? Ab.
12/21 For all of "Hawks" friends around the US and the world.....!

Mollysboy

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
All,

As you may already know, I have proudly accepted a promotion to Deputy Chief with CDF in the Riverside Unit. The promotion is effective Feb. 1, 2004. The time has come for a change for me and I am stoked with the change. For the last thirty years, I have worked in the Butte Unit. I have enjoyed every minute of those thirty years. Chiefs Sager and Brachais have been great chiefs. My new position will be working as a Deputy Chief in charge of Special Operations. Working as part of the RRU team will be a lot of fun and extremely interesting. The RRU program is very strong and I really look forward to working for Chief Tom Tisdale. RRU will break about 102,500 emergencies for 2003.

Thank you for all you ever did to support CDF/BCFR and me. The strength of any operation revolves around the people. We have great people working in emergency services in Butte County. I was just proud to be a part of the service. Happy holidays.

Assistant Chief John R. Hawkins
California Dept. of Forestry & Fire Protection

Congrats to him. Ab.
12/20 Mellie, your post on living quarters spurred a memory..... Living quarters and facilities was a big topic... also lots of other wildland firefighter topics were discussed.

Hey, back in 1998, the Pacific Southwest Region of the U.S. Forest Service held a conference to address and work on workforce issues. I was in attendance and came away from it with a new sense of mission and a new feeling of how we can all be part of our agencies.

http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/herger2.htm

Now that over five years have passed, does anyone have any word on how any of the "action" items were implemented. I saw a few reports come out and a few groups formed on the local levels... but overall, I saw little if any change... at least in the Fire Management program.

I know from the Fire Management side of the meeting, some of the issues were addressed and action items were developed. We had some promises from the then R-5 Fire Director (and future WO Fire Director) that had some study and then just disappeared.

Anyone know of what happened to the fire action items?.. their progress?

Lobotomy
12/20 HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE. glad you are home safe & hopefully sound and finding time to chime in here.
to Jane D lots of folks are in same situation as you.
to Matt, bet someone in the US hot season would welcome you
re the quotes, well duh, I gotta go back & read what I've missed & what I might add <snicker.
to the HUNTER and that JIM (that angel in the tutu) thanks for those old fun chats hugs ya.
to Poet, looks like you finally have some competition....... <grins
to EVERY FF: bless all FFs, *L* even the structure kids who just might save my possessions along with my bacon.....
to the Original AB, thank you for foresight and perseverance to make this website happen. and all who work so hard to make this a great website: TY!

River
12/19 Dear Ab:

Quite some time ago one of your ffs wrote a letter and signed it "Fire Killer". I copied it and showed it to everyone who came to my home. Every time I re-read it, I get a lump in my throat. It is one of the most heart-rending items I have ever read. <Ab note: the post can be found HERE. It was written after Jeff Allen and Shane Heath, the 2 helitack, died on the Cramer Fire in July.>

My granddaughter is also a wildfire fighter, and that is why I read your site constantly. Her name is Katelin Jane D<snip> of Salt Lake City, UT. She has now switched to the Forest Service Wildfire unit.

If I weren't so crippled up with mountain climbing bone breaks, I swear I would try to get onto one of the services. I think it is one of the most selfless things human beings can do.

(I would know how to rappel from a chopper, but someone would need to have a wheelchair waiting for me at the bottom -- guess I wouldn't be much help.)

I wish there were something I could do for your service. I feel so helpless when knowing your people are out there. At least know that I pray for you all the time.

A grateful citizen.

Alice Jane D<snip>
Salt Lake City, UT

Thanks so much, Jane.

Just a thought for all of us as the holidays have us counting our blessings, mourning those not with us, and another year closes. If you want to do something helpful for wildland firefighters, send a few dollars to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. It's is a non-profit organization that steps in to help families when their firefighters are killed or injured. They really make a difference, arranging transportation, lodging, and helping with other arrangements for family members in shock. Almost all the money contributed helps our community, as most who work for the Foundation donate their time. Your donations are tax deductible.

Jane, I snipped your last name to protect your and your daughter's privacy. After all, this is the internet... Ab.
12/20 "A plan is nothing; planning is everything." -General Dwight Eisenhower

FC180
12/20 Quote:

To plan is everything, the plan is nothing. (on the value of planning).
From an unknown military expert.

We use this during multi-agency training to encourage members of all
agencies effected by the plan to be involved in the planning process.

Hunter
12/20 More Quotes:

"No plan survives contact with the enemy" -Von Molke

No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair -Patton

If your plan relies on aircraft you need another plan -unknown

“I ought to have known, my advisors ought to have known and I ought to have been told, and I ought to have asked” -Winston Churchill

FC180
12/20 kind of a different topic
Does anyone know if the Three Fingers Lookout is accessible this time of year. I was interested in checking it out. Its located in North Central WA in the Cascade Range.
eric
12/20 Hi Abs!

Well, guess it's time to throw in some quotes from Alan Brunacini, chief of
the Phoenix Fire Department. These can be found in the back of his Fire
Command book. You know the one... it teaches that "other" ICS. Sectors and
all that.

Vomiting firefighters are ugly firefighters.
If the red lights on your truck are melting you parked too close.
Don't stand next to the guy who's always bandaged.

And my personal favorite:
If you panic, be sure to run in the correct direction.

There's more in the back of his book, but that's all I can remember for now.

Fish
12/20 I am a 21 year old seasonal fire fighter from Victoria, Australia. I am
currently on my third season of ground crew, and in the next season or two
will be hopefully progressing to a rappel/helitack crew. My main query is how
I would go about getting a position on a US (or Canadian) fire crew during our
Southern hemisphere "off season". I know that once on a rappel crew in Aus
there is an exchange programme with B.C Rappattack, but I dont want to sit
around and wait for the opportunity to possibly arise. Any info or ideas would
be greatly appreciated and would be a huge help in this first stage of
organising such a trip.

Thanks in advance,
Matt B.
12/19 A.W.B.G., sorry to be so flip in my response to your facilities question. I was having a silly, happy-to-be-alive day and it bled over into my post. By no means did I mean to imply that "since you were already getting screwed on your facilities you should happily continue being screwed." It's the worst bummer not having adequate living quarters and feeling unfairly treated or unsupported.

As I recall, the facilities issue surfaced on theysaid in early 2002. I think I also heard about it at the Division Chiefs Mtg. that year. Some of the California HS (and maybe other groundpounders?) complained that even the new MEL crews didn't have anyplace to live (aside from pitching a tent in the supt's backyard). Existing facilities that I saw then were pretty ugly and unsafe. Actually they looked like slum housing to me and I am used to roughing it when necessary. I don't know if things have changed. I presume things are better, but perhaps not.

What happened in R5 was that one person in the RO (who has just retired or is about to retire) was tasked with trying to find somewhere to come up with funds for facilities and solve the problem. I am pretty sure that no "facilities" money was available from the govt. Seems crazy to me to mandate more "troops" without providing adequate living support for them. I don't know about any differences in facilities between old and new crews. As I recall, almost all crews didn't have facilities or didn't have facilities that were safe.

I'd be willing to make a few phone calls on Monday if anyone can be reached and try to find out how R5 solved the problem or if it is not yet solved. If it is solved, maybe someone in your area could use some of the same procedures to work things out for you guys.

Hmmmm. Maybe the R5 problem is still bigger than I thought and I don't know what I'm talking about. I just got the following from a friend...

The budgets formed this year for next will be interesting because much of the funding for new facilities was taken from the money saved by vacant positions. Important in that many of the facilities have been just temporary/leases/rentals and no permanent facilities have been established. Now that most of the new perm positions have been filled. . . ? It was a huge issue on <snip>NF without a long term plan.

Mellie
12/19 Dana, Five Waters Mellie and anyone else who cares.

Thanks for the history and govt. budget lesson.

I am going to keep this short. First of all I am not afraid of competition this is not a game of who wins or looses. We need the crews, I agree with that, I'll take all the help I can get. My problem is that the process was not well implemented when the $ came, and so we have a less effective organization than congress and the taxpayers deserve.

Lets try to find some common ground. First MEL crews and CDC Type 1 crews are not IHCs and should not be lumped together. The same goes for 20 Smoke Jumpers on a bus.

We used to have Forest Hotshot Crews and Inter-Regional Hotshot Crews. The forest crews had a different mission than the IR crews. Just like the IHCs have a different mission than the MEL crews. One is a Forest/Regional resource and the other is a Shared National Resource like Air Tankers.

I have no problem helping anyone who wants my help to be better and at the same time I want input from them how I can improve as well. I have worked along side every kind of crew there is and always offer any assistance I can, to help us all do our jobs better. It doesn't matter if it is a contract crew or another IHC or an engine or helitac crew we are all here to help each other. So, don't assume that I am not trying to help by calling it as I see it. If someone sees a deficit on my crew I hope they tell me so I can make the needed corrections. That was the reason I quit an ADFMO job that I held for several years, I thought I could help keep up the good traditions of Hotshot Crews and help improve where we need to.

The money thing is another matter. Yes I think that the established crews that need it should get their facilities upgraded to the standards new crews are receiving them. Maybe that is something the bean counters can plan on over the next few years but I aint holding my breath. Yes, good facilities, barracks and equipment does help retention, so why wouldn't it be good for the "old crews"? So, your argument that that since we were already getting screwed on our facilities we should happily continue being screwed doesn't add to your credibility in my book.

I realize that the "fair" only comes once a year. But I can't help but hope that, if we get the opportunity to do the right thing, we will.

A.W.B.G.
12/19 A.W.B.G.,

The reason that MEL crews began getting created at such a fast pace was to a large extent due to a report that the Govt. Accounting Office came out with about 8 years ago. I essentially predicted that a SEVERE wildfirefighter shortage would exist in 3-4 years with equally predictable consequences. About a year later they revised the prediction to state that the SEVERE wildfirefighter shortage existed CURRENTLY. (I am getting older and time is passing faster so please forgive slight time distortions in this quick and dirty history if they exist)

It took a lot of people inside the Washington DC "beltway" by surprise...even though a lot of ground pounders were not surprised at all. Consequently it got the attention of Govt. officials who were more strident (and referred to the GAO studies often) when asking for more $$$$ from the taxpayers representatives who hold the pursestrings. Money was quickly (for Washington) promised to help alleviate the shortage and the fire orgs. moved as fast as they could knowing how much (little) they could depend on such political promises.

A shortage still exists.. and will likely continue to exist for some years (decades?) to come.. despite these genuine attempts to alleviate it. Wildfirefighting it turns out is not all that attractive a job for the current pay and benefits. (I KNOW...this hard to believe!) And the militaristic environment that is synonymous with "hotshot crews" does little to make them more attractive once a newbie is on the crew...so retention may suffer. New barracks, equipment, and facilities helps retention. And remember...the old crews were willing to do the job before these new "incentives" existed...so why would you expect them to get "the new stuff"?

Seriously... the new crews need your help.... before you are too old to work on a "hotshot crew" anymore. And the comments about the lower quality of the newly formed crews isn't "helping". They need more than a "chance to prove themselves".. they need your assistance... your pointers.. your support if they are to become the new experienced frontline fire force it is hoped they will... eventually. And those that fall shortest of the "old crews" expectations need the help the most. They need "drop and give me fifty" a lot less than they need "heres what has worked for me". And believe it or not... many of us "older guys" EXPECT you to provide that help. There are fewer and fewer of "us" old hands around to do it. And from the looks of it this trend of more younger.. less older will continue for the foreseeable future.

Therefore it falls upon younger and younger folks to act in a more and more mature manner as time goes on. It is a new burden you may not "appreciate" but it is now part of what we....the folks that walked the fireline before you... expect you to accept with the same enthusiasm that you accept all the other "unfair burdens" of your job.

They are not your competition.. they are your brothers and sisters in arms.
Dana
12/19 AWBG,

The reason the buildup had to happen so fast was that a lot of firefighters were being lost to retirement and there was going to be a crisis within 5 years. (I think we're almost there now). You must remember that. Congress gave the money in 2000 and expected expansion to be done in one year. Yeah, right. I was allowed to sit in on the budget mixing for R5 that year to see how MEL worked (after all I have the same nickname). Approval was obtained to spread the buildup over a 3 year period, as it was impossible to accomplish in one.

Amazing process that MEL remix with our math-whiz of a Gary leading the R5 fire planners through their paces. And I got to be tutored by some fine smart guys and gals, a number of whom were former hotshots... What a work ethic.

Anyway, loss of manpower (generic use of the term) forced the issue. Congress allocated the money. It was use it or loose it. (The luxury of 10 years, dream on! Our govt never plans ahead, dontcha know. They'd have borrowed the $$ back or cancelled it!)

And the rest is history.

Gee, time must be marching on if I have a HISTORY in fire! (um, seems like only yesterday I got hooked and initiated into the 180 Club). What a great time I've had!

Mellie from Five Waters

PS. Ab on the hotshot list from 2001 I can remember being amazed at how many crews from Oregon had their own websites back then. Many more across the US have them now.
12/19 I heard this 23 years ago when I worked in the oil fields. It goes something like this: "We the unknowing, lead by the unwilling have been doing so much, for so long, with so little, that now we are qualified to do absolutely anything with nothing." That is the about the way some volunteer fire departments are staffed, financed, and operated. So this is a salute to the V.F.D. guys and gals through out the county and the world.

Have a safe and sane holiday and watch out for all the armatures out there. God Bless and Happy Holidays

>From Retired L.A.V.E.
12/19 Old&Gray,

No problem at all, I had a nerve hit & had to restrain myself! I 100% accept it. Are you a Supt type from a pre-MEL IHC?

FMS,

Ill send you a message, i like being accepted!

Jersey Boy,

Ever met Scott Lathem? He was a buddy of mine a long time ago, last i heard he was on an engine for the NJ FS, ive lost contact with him. Is there any way to find out what each base "specializes" in without making a contact on/from each base?

AWBG,

I know at least one of the R8 shot crews have had a really hard time gettin certified. Maybe im not in touch with the western fire world, but i thought a shot crew was a shot crew, end of story. Am i wrong with that assumption? I realize some will have great long histories, some are just beginning, but can you order up a pre-MEL IHC, as opposed to a MEL IHC?

I'll say one more time, I really really enjoyed the work, the high motivation, and the saw work, eating crap food, working hours upon hours. I really got a kick out of working like a dog. At least i got paid for it, as opposed to the farm work where i live. I definitely like this line of work, just want to find a niche where i'll be appreciated & not expected just to be a robot, Id like to use some brain power as opposed to just my back and legs.

Thanks again AB.

ZKP

Take a look through the logos photo pages. The pre MEL crews are toward the beginning of the logo pages. Some crews like the El Cariso (with the ruptured duck logo) go way back. The wife of one of our theysaid contributors created that image in the early days. That logo has since changed.

Here's our historical hotshot crew list (Feb, 2001) that preceded the MEL buildup. You can compare this with the current fed fire list to see who's new. In addition, those that are not yet certified have (trainee) after their names.

This outreach notice for Alpine IHC just came in. Ab.
12/19 Ab,

ZKP's post has opened up for debate the wisdom of the upper echelon of fire to try to build too many new crews in too short of a time period. One thing for sure is MEL "hotshot" crews are not IHCs. I understand that the MEL crews are being certified under the auspices of the Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations Guide, this is all good and well as far as it goes. However the formation of so many new IHCs and MEL type 1 crews in the last couple of years has had a negative effect on the existing IHCs.

The creation of new crews was done without much forethought, in my opinion. Millions of dollars were and are still being pumped into acquiring new vehicles, training facilities, barracks, caches, etc. for the new crews while the existing crews are left in their old rundown facilities. I believe that we need more type one crews and IHC', but, there has not been a systematic process for putting new crews into service, and fill the new vacancies without decimating the existing crews. It is a case of trying to build too many crews too fast and winding up with a substandard product. Several of these crews had severe problems last couple of seasons and wound up being disciplined, placed in type 2 status or disbanded all together.

If the powers that be would have had a plan to build 100 new type 1 and IHC crews over the next 10 -15 years instead of 1-3 years we would have had time to build quality crews with excellent overhead that could truly call themselves Hotshots. About half of the new crews I work with are meeting the standards of performance that IMT's and fire managers have come to expect from the IHC program. I am not forgetting the past and current deficiencies of the old crews because they do exist and need to be addressed as well. I am just saying there is a better way to deal with the creation of new firefighting resources that has been exhibited in our recent history.

I think another part of the problem is a function of our firefighting culture. It's like my boss tells me when talking about Hotshot Crews "I love you when I need you and I hide you when I don't." It is no wonder we are having problems building crews when this is the attitude, joking or not. What kind of catastrophe would have occurred, for example if management had decided to build 30 new Smoke Jumper bases in 3 years? This would never even occur to any thinking person because there are obviously not enough existing Smoke Jumpers that have the skills and knowledge to do such a ridiculous undertaking. But when it comes to building Hotshot crews, they think it is just going to happen because the money is flowing. The cultural view of Hotshot crews is "They're not real smart but they can move heavy objects." Some of the blame falls on the crews themselves for our past practices. Almost all of the IHC Supts I talk to are trying to change that perception of crews, it is going to take a while.

I don't have answers for most of the challenges I have brought up here. It may be too late to put the crew creation ship back on course, but we need to try.

A.W.B.G.
12/19 ZKP:

sounds like your experience on a 'shot crew wasn't what you thought it would be - but they never are.

if you plan on coming out west (like i do every year - jersey is still my home) decide what do you want to do? there are advantages/disadvantages to being on a hotshot crew or a rappel crew. my experience is with hotshots, but i know a lot of folks who have made the switch back and forth.

if you decide to go back to a hotshot crew, i hope you find a good one. just having the "hotshot" title doesn't make a good crew. but don't expect to get away from a militaristic attitude even on hotshot crews that are a bit more laid back. expect to walk in lines, have your bathroom breaks timed, and be harassed about being ready to go within 5 minutes of wake-up. its the way things are mostly done. but if you want to see a lot of time on the firelines, hotshot crews are the way to go. that's the best part about shot crews - for the most part you see more fire than anyone. one summer i was out west for 101 days (school cut my season short) and i spent 80 of those days in direct fire suppression - not many folks can beat that. and you often have the opportunity for complex assignments, such as large burnouts, or remote spike sites. if you can handle the lifestyle (and it doesn't make you less of a firefighter if you can't) hotshot crews can be an incredible experience. but remember, for the most part you will be "a number" all summer long.

as for rappellers - you have a lot more freedom. both in terms of the structure of the crew, and the assignments you get. rappels are initial attack, so small fires, and relatively quick shifts (2-3 days). you might even get to IC some fires, something that rarely happens on a shot crew. you get to see a lot of different types of fires, and see completion of fires. but you may not see as much fire. some rappel crew members are lucky to get 6 fire rappels all year, some get upwards of 40. be sure to look at whether the helo is a national/regional/local ship - and see what kinds of assignments the crew gets. some rappel crews do quite a bit of helibase managing, and not so much digging. some do a lot of search and rescue. look at what you want to do.

i'd say the biggest advantage of a rappel crew is the opportunity to build your skill set as a firefighter. you will have to deal with many different situations, often times without being told what to do (not always the easiest thing when a fire is starting to cook). on the other hand, hotshot crews see fire: thats what they do. formal training may be lacking on some crews, but you can learn an awful lot if you pay attention and ask questions. fire experience on a hotshot crew can be unmatched at times.

finally, for both types of crews - you must be in shape. rappel crews have similar guidelines as hotshots, and usually require a pack-out test of around 100 lbs.

hope this helps, good luck finding a job -

JerseyBoy
12/19 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 have been updated. Ab.
12/19 Ab,

For the quotes page, about needing to have a good reason for doing what
we do in the fire service, not just because somebody asks us to do it:

"Did you ever see a cat skeleton in a tree?" - author unknown

vfd cap'n
12/19 NorCal Tom & vfd cap't-
Good replies to my 3 thing plume dominated fire - Rothermel challenge. NorCal Tom, you were closest to what he said, but vfd cap't your 3 were inspired in a twisted thinking way, especially with the "accountability and litigation" environment we've had since 30mi. Bet you like puzzles.

Everyone-
On a serious note: I've heard there are not enough people taking the classes for IMT-IC to support the number of Type 1 and Type 2 IMTs we currently have. (Does the 30mi fallout and holding ICs accountable for mess-ups below them have something to do with a lack of motivation to step up to leadership? Many team members are retiring and we don't have the person-power in the pipeline? Team membership is not supported by many line-officers?) Hope some folks are thinking on solutions.

How do we train and retain good people in a profession of federal wildland firefighting? I think we're getting on with the training (can only speak for R5). Retention is the problem. If good folks jump to other agencies whether state or county or city, and work their way up to membership on a team, they can end up getting paid 3 times as much as the federal IC running the show. Career wise this is a no-brainer. There should be some kind of equity in pay and incentive to make fed fire a real career.

Also heard some months ago that there's an AD IMT concept in the works. Now what kind of conflict of interest in hiring resources would that create?

Tahoe Terrie
12/19 Nobody’s out to get me?

Drat, why don’t they tell me these things?

Seriously folks, the comparisons that have come up between fire work and the police service have brought up an interesting point: fire is no longer a strictly rural hobby. We’re moving more and more into the wildland urban interface, and scene safety has come to involve more than simply wide-awake lookouts, LCES, 10 and 18.

We’ve got a human element to fire safety as well, from booby-trapped pot fields to meth labs to whatever evil that banjo-playing family chucked back into the bushes. We really can’t afford to operate like nobody’s out to get us. Like EMS, we’re emergency responders, and no matter how different what you find is from what you were dispatched to, it’s your job to at least not add to the emergency.

My first lesson in emergency response came from a guy who had two quotes which he would repeat constantly: “No rescuing the rescuers” and “No amusing obituaries”.

Nerd on the Fireline

(Nobody pass out in the eggnog, ya’hear?)

Check the growing list of Quotes and Aphorisms to Live By. Ab.
12/19 A Firefighters Psalm:

The IC is my Shepard, I shall not bitch.
He giveth me plume dominated fires, beside Mark III pump shows.
He restoreth my sack lunch: he leadeth me in the chow line, for his name's sake.
Yea, Tho I hike into canyons filled with smoke,
I will fear no flames,
For I wear his nomex
Thy (new?) Fire Shelter and Shift Plan,
They comfort me.
He preparest green eggs before me,
In the presence of Heli-nerds.
He anointest my head with retardant,
My bottled water runneth over.
Surely Overtime and Hazard Duty will follow me all the days of my life.
And I will dwell on the ________ Complex, Forever.

Fuels Guy
12/19 ZKP,

I'm just going to flat out apologize! I don't know you from Adam and it
was wrong of me to make assumptions. I did have a bad day at work
however. Sorry to go off!

Old & Gray
12/19 Old&Gray

Glory Grabbing is exactly what I try not to do, thats why i dont dress in fire t-shirts outside of work, or when somebody asks my occupation, i say I work for the FS. I dont do fire for glory, I do it to feel good about myself, facing a challenge head on, and beating it. Thats why I thought the shots would be a good gig, go head to head with whatever comes, and pull together as a team and beat it. Email me, I'd love to discuss things with yuh.

A Wee Bit Gray:

Turnover= the crew i was on, From Asst. Supt Down, most experience was 2 years in that position. I think for sure there were 4 returners from the previous year. We started the season with 21, my best count was 4 season ending injuries, one "washed out" and two more quit after others got injured. Yes, it was a MEL IHC. The sick & tired was stuff like cramps & very little sleep. We had a couple of folks develop breathing problems during the season. Had a lot of injuries too (I'd list them, but i won't.... for the nay-sayers, they were more than blisters & stings) BUT!!!, before everyone jumps on me for being a tenderfoot, YES i know cramps are a sign of being out of shape & yes, i know our CTR's showed 8 hours a rest a day. You folks all know how it goes, somebody cramping up on the line in the middle or end of the season is overexerting. They do indeed have a problem, & need to have that problem addressed before they continue to power hike. You hit on appreciation too, the only time i got a thank you was the day i left the crew, after receiving an excellent performance rating & an invitation back next year.

Militaristic style (to me) means that the supt or asst sup says, ok you can use the bathroom if you want to, or stay in the crummy (during briefing), or stopping at a rest stop on the way home "3 minutes, then we leave." Once again, I realize that someone has to make those decisions, I'm a Lead Firefighter back home, with a very hands off FMO/AFMO. I know that when the sh`t starts ripping I expect my guys to snap to & do it, now. When we're doin busy work, moping up, or not under a bigtime time constraint, as long as they're performing their job, not screwing up & being safe, I'm happy.

Another thing that bugged me about the shot crew i was on was the Supt's rarely ever give a second listen to a new/different way of doing things. One particular example was saw work. According to the Asst. Supt. Open Face/Bore Cut is an unacceptable method to use. I've certified "C" on both types of cuts, and i can see situations where each one would be better.

Training was an entirely different issue (YES!!! I realize it was a busy season!!)

Sorry for the 'rant AB, It's gettin a little personal

ZKP

Part of the dialog is finding out where the person making a statement is coming from. Thanks for the clarification. Ab.
12/19 Ab's, Can you post this on theysaid as well?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In this time
Of Holiday cheer
As we gather
Our families near,
Lets not forget
Those loved ones brave
Who gave their lives;
Our homes - forests - WORLD to save.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I wish to thank those Fallen Ones, their families and their friends for all they have sacrificed to keep us safe from harm.

I also want to thank our beloved Firefighters and all others, both domestic and Armed Forces, that do their best to protect heart and home.

Thank you,
"Poet"
12/19 Don't know where the quote came from, but when I became an IC, a more experienced IC gave me a list of advice. The quote "Friendly fire isn't " was one of them. Here are a few more that need to be passed on and who said then originally is just a guess. Probably Charlie Drag-Mcleod!

"Never forget that your apparatus was built by the lowest bidder"
"When you have secured an area, don't forget to tell the fire"
"A rapidly escalating fire has the right of way"
"If the fire is in range, so are you"
"Radios will fail as soon as you need air support desperately"
"Anything you can do can get you burned, including not doing anything at all"
"Professional firefighters are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs"
"If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid"
And finally, "Murphy was a firefighter"

djchief
12/19 I was out playing on the Super Highway and ran across a link on the Eastern Region page and found some Power Points.
Thought it might be helpful to those getting ready for the next year.

Eastern Region www.na.fs.fed.us/firetraining/instructorsref.htm
FIRE INSTRUCTORS' REFERENCE
Power Points for:
Basic Fire Training I-200 (384 KB )
Intermediate Fire Training I-300 (395 KB)
Initial Attack Incident Commander S-200 (205 KB)
Supervisory Concepts and Techniques S-201 (1.1 MB)

Hickman
12/19 Lance, your question regarding the differences between the 0455 and 0462 series....

The 0455 series is Range Technician and the 0462 series is Forestry Technician. As they relate to firefighting, there are no differences since both series improperly represent the duties and responsibilities of wildland firefighters. You can also add the other ten or so series that wildland firefighters are also classified under.

Fortunately, (or unfortunately)... depending on how you look at it.... the DoD agencies recognize the improper classification and regularly offer jobs to wildland firefighters within the 0081 series.

Lobotomy
12/19 ZKP,

Try coming out west and see if you like Hotshots or Engine work. We'd like to have you give it a try. If you have a good recommendation from your FMO... you can probably get a job anywhere you want with the current shortages out here. It's not militaristic... just a mix of liberal and conservative...

Ab, can you provide ZKP my e-mail address?

Thanks
FMS

Sure, I can pass that on. Ab.
12/19 Here's a quote from my Old Hotshot Supt.

"Hey stupid, don't get so excited... it's not our emergency.... it's our job!"

SoCalCapt
12/18 NCCrew

I have included the 'Swiss Cheese" model of accidents into the classes I teach for new firefighters. One quote from Shappell in the "Human Factors Analysis and Classification System" is:

"Arguably the unsafe acts of firefighters can be directly linked to nearly 80% of all accidents. However simply focusing on unsafe acts (ie violations of the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders) is like focusing on a fever without understanding the underlying disease causing it."

I think Karl Weick says something like "fighting fire requires us to rely on our ability to know and predict various states of nature, which I think is as impossible as winning the lottery."

And I think Carlos Fuentes says something like "nature has a predisposition for destruction and disorder (entropy, Shiva?)." So please all of you disabuse yourselves of the notion that our job is easier than police officers because nobody is out to get us.

Clint Eastwood says "We've all got it coming" and "Deserve's got nothing to do with it".

I agree that no loss is acceptable or should be calculated, but until humanity is infallible, wildfire deaths will be inevitable.

FC180
12/18 Howdy,

I’m a DoD F/F (0081) in southern Ca. and was wondering what the difference is between the 462 and 455 Series. We have boat load of guys that are prior USFS and CDF. Thankfully we had several of them on the Cedar Fire and I’ll tell you, if one of ‘em even looked nervous, I had an adrenaline dump that I hadn’t felt since my days in the Marines!

Thanks for your time and I imagine I’ll be bumping into some of the message board posters next fire season seeing that both the State and Fed’s new battle cry is DO MORE WITH A HELL OF A LOT LESS (and we may still contract you out).

Lance
12/18 Wishing all of you happy holidays.

Let's remember those that will not be with the ones we love. Drink a cold
one for our troops that are layin on the line for us, and remember to be
safe and well.

By the way, So Cal is not out of fire season. Lots of dry wind out of the
Northeast.

DCr
12/18 Wee!

Are you really A Wee Bit Grey??? Oh my goodness! I will totally have
to revise my mental image of you!

Mellie
12/18 ZKP/ironman,

Being a Hotshot is not for everyone as you have obviously found out.
Sometimes we are a little rough on the crews but no where near as bad as
when I started on crews in '75. I wonder how the rest of the crew feels.
If there is going to be a huge turnover in personnel on the crew you worked
on last year there could very well be a problem. I also wonder if it was
an IHC or a MEL Hotshot crew. My third question is, would you be invited
back on the crew if you chose to return.

Having worked on or supervised IHCs at some point in the last 4
decades, 70's, 80's 90's and now the 2000's gives me a little knowledge on
the subject, although I may be a little biased.

As far as being sick and tired I guess it all depends how sick and tired
people are. I would need more on that subject to address it properly. At
some point over a long season people are going to get sick, tired and
cranky. But we still need to do our job as long as we can do it safely and
effectively.

The militaristic style has changed even in the military, so, I am not sure
what you are referring to. The military needs discipline and so do crews.
The military needs someone to take charge and so do crews. The military
uses a team based approach to accomplish tactical missions and so do crews.
The best crews are, as Old and Gray says, militaristic. The best crews
also treat people like people, and take care of their basic needs like
water, food, rest and a little appreciation once in a while for a job well
done.

I have to surmise that you either were not prepared for life on a Hotshot
Crew, or, that you are not supposed to be a Hotshot right now. Possibly you
will never be. You know what? That is OK. Like I said it isn't for
everyone.

Good luck finding a job that fits you.

Signed,
A Wee Bit Gray
12/18 The Newcastle, WY firefighter who was drunk while
responding to a vegetation fire, rolling the water
tender and killing a 16-year old volunteer
firefighter, was sentenced to 14 to 18 years in prison
today.

www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/7524065.htm

Jackson
12/18 DV's request:

....list of all I's and S's course descriptions....

http://164.159.185.38/pms/training/training.htm

Field Managers' Course Guide September 2003
Hickman
12/18 Ab

I looked at the familysaid site and it reminded me of all the empty chairs
around the tables this holiday season. I will raise a toast to the fallen
and those they left behind as I gather near the ones I love. I will raise
a special toast to Jeff and Shane and hope those of you still grieving will
find some peace this Christmas.

Terry T

Familysaid does wind down in the winter when firefighters are home. Poet's poem is a very nice one. To those who lost loved ones, I wish them peace as well. Ab.
12/18 Re: Tahoe Terrie's 3 things challenge

The good thing is you could show up on CNN's highlight reel.

The first bad thing is you could get fined $30,000 for making a cell
phone call in the end/deployment zone.

The second is you get smacked by a safety (or lack thereof.)

Vfd cap'n

Um hum, and do you think this is what Rothermel might have thought about plume-dominated fire? Oh yes, I can see the analogy... haw haw Ab.
12/18 Hey ZKP,

There are many great hotshot crews out there to work for, but guess what?.. The great ones have a military attitude! That's why the safety record of shot crews is so good. I would not want to work for any other kind. It sounds as if you're interested more in grabbing glory than fighting fire. Why don't you try for a jumper spot and see how that works out for you!

Good Luck,
Old&Gray

Now, now... Let's keep this to issues. Ab.
12/18 About the wideband/narrowband radios.

I heard from a reliable source that the NIFC Radio Cache is going to be going narrowband for the radio equipment used for incidents in 2004.

The Federal Government has been mandated to be narrowband by December of 2004.

What this means is that older King EPH, all LPH and MPH radios can't meet the requirements. The main problem is that some frequencies can not be programmed in. All GPHs are Flexmode.

The way to tell if your King radio can be narrowbanded (King calls it Flexmode) is after you enter the password the radio display will say PASS.

This is going to be very hard to deal with as I still see a lot of LPHs out on fire that should have been replaced about 15 years ago.

It is interesting that when the FCC announced this public safety protested, saying that they could not afford to replace their radio systems. I received this explaining the outcome. The Feds are still changing by DEC 2004 and should be digital by 2010.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
FCC Issues Stay for Narrowband Rule

Fairfax, Va., Friday, December 12, 2003...The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has announced a stay of the January 13, 2004 deadline that delays implementation of the narrowbanding rule. January 13, 2004 was the deadline set to prohibit the filing of applications for new wideband systems or modifications of existing wideband systems.

This results from a petition filed in August by the IAFC, International Municipal Signal Association, International Association of Chiefs of Police, National Sheriffs' Association, Major Cities Chiefs Association, Major County Sheriffs' Association and the National Public Safety Telecommunications Council.

The stay was granted to allow the FCC to review the various petitions for reconsideration of the narrowbanding rule.

The following deadlines are still in effect:
  • the FCC will no longer certify 25 kHz equipment after January 1, 2005
  • the manufacture and importation of 25 kHz equipment is prohibited after January 1, 2008
  • by January 1, 2018 public safety must migrate to 12.5 kHz systems.

It is possible that some dates in the migration from 25 kHz wideband to 12.5 kHz narrowband may be revised, but the requirement to narrowband will remain intact. Fire chiefs must continue to plan for the 12.5 kHz federal policy.

The FCC order implementing the narrowband rule stay is available for download on the IAFC Web site at www.iafc.org/downloads/index.shtml.

COMT
12/18 Re plume dominated fire:

Good: the fire moves right where you expect it to move (not unlike a goal directed, bullet thrown pass but in slower motion). If you're doing a Rx burn you hope it's not too bullet like, as you want the column to be hot and big enough to draw in fire from the sides while you're building line and burning out.

Bad: the fire column builds, wind direction changes and it collapses. The outcome is unpredictable, spot fires everywhere, unstable air mass that may push it around... who knows where it ends up, probably not at your goal line (like a really wild hail mary pass, at the top of its arc the football blows up and spreads bits of itself all over the field, only to be picked up by the winds buffeting the stadium?)

Bad: the fire (football) is intercepted by some other growing and powerful force and makes a run uphill away from your goal.

Happy Holidays everyone.
NorCal Tom
12/18 Teaser Quote:

"The truth about plume dominated fire is that it's like a forward pass in football. Three things can happen and two of them are bad." Richard Rothermel

Challenge: What three things?
Tahoe Terrie
12/18 More Quotes:

Don't worry boy, it's a controlled burn. - Homer Simpson

I don't know the chemical reaction, but fire made it good. - Homer Simpson

Pigpen
12/18 AB, or anybody else

Has anybody around done the hotshot & the rappelling thing?

I was on a shot crew last year, I enjoyed myself, but got really tired of the Military attitude. My particular crew (my feelings only) didnt really take the best care of their people when we were tired or even physically sick.

I know I wont be going back to the same crew, so can anybody tell me which are some of the better crews to work for? Or along the same lines, whats the highlights of rappelling? (Beside rotor time & the rappels)

I'm a PFT "back east" and i have my FMO's full support of going anywhere in the country to do anything i want to, as long as its in fire!

Feel free to post for others benefit, or email me directly @ ironman1997@hotmail.com.

Thanks, ya'll
ZKP
12/18 Here's one "Friendly, fire isn't!"

djchief
12/17 Ab,

With all of the hubbub about how dangerous or not our job is I thought a
few quotes would be thought provoking. Some are serious and some are for
fun. Hope some others will be forthcoming from some of the lurkers and
regular contributors.

Later, Backburnfs

Good one. A
WHO SAID IT WHAT THEY SAID SUBMITTED BY
Paul Gleason “Become a Student of Fire” Backburnfs
Gordon Graham "Predictable is Preventable" Backburnfs
Chaytor Mason "The only time you learn from the mistakes of another is when they end in tragedy." Backburnfs
Ed Pulaski "The first man who tries to leave this tunnel, I will SHOOT." Backburnfs
Dirty Harry "Do you feel lucky, punk?" Backburnfs
Viscount Cecil "Prudence which degenerates into timidity is very seldom the path to safety." Backburnfs
Jack Handy "If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid seeing yourself in the mirror, because I bet that's what REALLY throws you into a panic." Backburnfs
General George S. Patton "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." Backburnfs
12/17 hi ab,

just want to wish everyone out there a merry xmas and a happy new year
and please lets all work together to make it a safe one.

ken hilder, jellat rural fire service
12/17 Re: current thread on the inevitability of firefighters deaths.

Just a few observations on this topic I would like to comment on. First is the fact that many of the replies to NCCrew's post begin with "I think", "I wonder", "I. . .wanted to comment", "I had to say", and even one "I don't think". I think the fact that you are thinking and replying is a great thing, it is the reason this web page exists. I agree with the intent of NCCrew's post and I also agree with the objective of the majority of replies.

One thing I've learned can be difficult is transposing your thoughts to writing in a way that everyone will know what you mean to say. If we were to take the first three words from Terrie's reply, "I don't think", out of context and use it against them, we may come to the conclusion that Terrie doesn't think. But that surely isn't Terrie's intent, was it?

I have some experience in posting here over the years. More than once I've been blasted hard (and rightfully so) for my failure to adequately communicate my thoughts. My intentions were good, but my words or grammar poorly selected. What if NCCrew had used the word probable instead of inevitable throughout the message? Would that have been less distasteful to some and better conveyed their meaning. As an introduction NCCrew specifically stated, "I am most likely going to have a hard time expressing what I really mean in text". With that statement they advised they were having difficulty composing their thoughts (and perhaps requesting a bit of indulgence).

I congratulate NCCrew for having the courage to publicly express their thoughts on an obvious thorny subject. Since I know NCCcrew is a long time contributor here who's previous comments other readers and myself have regarded highly, I may be more lenient when reading their current message. At the same time I do appreciate the thoughtful and mostly respectful replies.

I will take the opportunity to state that I personally would be proud to work alongside, be supervised by, supervise, or otherwise interact with NCCrew at any time. You might occasionally check the Chat Room to see if you can find them lurking there and hit 'em up for some good discussion to get a better understanding of just who they are.

And that's my unbiased opinion. Original Ab.

You can observe a lot just by watchin'. -- Yogi Berra
12/17 Write your congressman! now! I am saying thanks to the folks who have supported this bill, it works.

"Hometown Heroes" bill signed into law

On Dec. 15, President Bush signed into law the Hometown Heroes Survivors Benefits Act of 2003. This important law extends federal benefits to public safety officers, including fire fighters, police officers and other first responders, who die of heart attack or stroke while on duty.

The U.S Congress passed the legislation in November; it will apply to cases effective Dec. 15, the day the measure was signed into law.

The Hometown Heroes bill extends the current Public Safety Officers' Benefits (PSOB) Program to public safety officers who die as a result of a heart attack or stroke resulting from strenuous physical activity that occurred:
  • While responding to an emergency or participating in a training exercise
  • While still on duty after the response or participation.
  • Within 24 hours of the response or participation.

"The IAFC has spent the last several years working to get this critical legislation passed," said IAFC President Ernest Mitchell. "We are very pleased that it has been signed into law so that families of these fallen fire fighters can now receive federal assistance."

Heart attacks and strokes represent a significant risk among public safety officers, accounting for nearly half of all fire fighter deaths each year. In 2002, 37 on-duty fire fighters died of heart attacks.

The PSOB program, administered by the Department of Justice, provides a one-time financial benefit - currently set at $267,494 - to families of public safety officers (fire, EMS and police,) killed or permanently disabled in the line of duty. Prior to the enactment of this new law, the burden of proof was placed on the family to demonstrate a direct relation between the heart attack or stroke and the actions performed in the line of duty. The Hometown Heroes Survivors Benefit Act shifts that burden to the Department of Justice by adding language presumptively qualifying heart attacks and strokes as line-of-duty deaths absent competent medical evidence to the contrary.

RR
12/17 Hey I had a list of all I's and S's course descriptions but my computer
crashed. I dont know where I got the list. Can you help?

Thanks
DV
12/17 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 were updated yesterday.

Readers, there's a new classified up on the Classifieds page. It's an ad for Bendix King EPH5101S Flexmode radios under communications. If interested, please check it out.

For those looking for the special book for adult or child, please browse our Fire Books and Kids Fire Books pages. I have placed small chain saw ratings on this page to make browsing easier. (5 Saws is best.) If you order through Amazon, we get a small award that helps pay the bills here.

Ab.
12/17 Ab and others:

I think what many upset many folks about NCCrew's
email about the dangers of firefighting was the
suggestion that if we don't accept death on the
firelines as a possibility, then we should find
another line of work. and in this instance, i don't
think many readers thought of death as a genetic heart
defect falling someone on the line, or some freak
occurrence - they thought of a burnover.

hand in hand with this is the comparison to police
officers and structural firefighters, two civil
service professions where death in the line of duty
can happen through no fault of the workers.

the differences between these profession and ours are
huge. no amount of planning or training can prevent
an police officer from being shot by a lunatic bent on
killing a cop. and a building collapse while ff's are
doing a search and rescue is a risk that structure
ff's acknowledge when they sign on for the job.

as for us on the wildland side, we are almost never
called to go into a fire where some person is trapped.
and there is no one trying to kill us. for us, our
deaths are more like the cops who don't use their
training when in a shootout, or structure folks who
blindly rush to save a player piano without looking at
building condition.

ab, you mentioned that many jumped on NCCrew for
merely suggesting that firefighting was dangerous.
but what i thought