"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
February, 2004
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2/29 Dear Ab,

Please include website, banner logo and memorial information on your website for the National
Smokejumpers Association. NSA is at www.smokejumpers.com. Their national reunion is in
June in Missoula. The NSA Memorial plaque program is explained on the website.

Thanks, D.
2/29 Forwarded from WC:

The Idaho Statesman continues to follow the Cramer fire

2/29 Tony,

I 100% agree with your fist two paragraphs, maybe I came across a little strong.

Paragraph #3, ah.. err....I know for a 100% fact safety is first and foremost in Joe F.'s mind, and I would like for others to think it is in mine as well. My point in responding is when this "incident" happened, and for the rest of the day, it wasn't an incident. It somehow snowballed overnight.

With an imagination, yes, somebody could surmise that Joe was saying it never crossed the line, so no big deal. With even less imagination, (my view) Joe was trying to give what info he could on the goings-on.

"acceptable levels of incompetence and normalizing the risk"... Hey I said first, this was just my opinion!!!!...."First off this forum is exactly the right place for Dick to express his viewpoints, no matter what you or anyone else think, as you are certainly free to express yours." Amen, let me express my views.

About Jodi's post, yup cut, pasted, & sent...The thought of having to call one of my boys or girls parents and tell them that I just basically killed them would haunt me for life.

I'll say once again, Joe is intimately involved with this, and I too was pretty darn close. Let the TNC beat the war-drums & if the report puts egg on my face, then so be it. Once again, i give the disclaimer of: This is just my opinion. We dance with fire, nobody ever getting a little burn somewhere 100% of the time is a pretty high bar to set, yes I realize it should be set that far. I've gotten a mustache singed, or beard had chunks taken out of it several times. It happens to me, I don't want it to happen to my guys, but it does, every year.

Ab, I love this forum, great place

________
2/29 Readers,

I will probably not get to posting the photos until next Saturday. Some nice people pics among them. Thanks for your patience.

Ab.
2/29 Jodi:

I want you to know how much Jeff and Shane meant to me. I have worked with them for two years and grew up with Jeff. Through the tragedy, I find some comfort in the memories of happy times and smiles both on and off of the fireline. Knowing, and trusting in each other, working hard and of course getting very dirty!

This summer Shane was falling a HUGE tree, and as a second season firefighter, I'd never seen big trees coming down. So afterwards, Jeff and I walked down and they both explained the cut, what he did well and what he could have done better. That is just one example of how my friends took the time to teach and mentor younger and more inexperienced firefighters. Their impact on my life is so enormous I can't describe. I pray every night for your family, Allens and anyone who was involved.

As a firefighter, the fact that overheads were not watching their backs just blows me away. How many other times were we all in positions that they were not aware of?

I have a quote from a firefighter involved in the Rattlesnake Fire of 1953, it is so true and I would like to share it: May we Always Remember, and Never Forget

"This place is sacred to the memory of those who died here. We, by remembering them and learning from their tragedy, give meaning to what happened here: that they did not die in vain, that their deaths give the gift of life to others who come after."

May God bring your hearts peace and comfort,

Idaho FireChick
2/29 sign me: _________ ,

Whoaaa buddy! I was not going to post to this thread, but after re-reading yours and Joe's reply to Dick I can't keep quiet.

First off this forum is exactly the right place for Dick to express his viewpoints, no matter what you or anyone else think, as you are certainly free to express yours.

I totally agree with Dicks view as I perceive it. For fire management types of land management agencies that professes to have safety as a core value make the statements you and Joe have made in your replies is mind boggling!!

A person suffered serious burns...does it matter whether it was a prescribed fire or a wildfire? My understanding of the core value of safety is that no accidents are acceptable. To state otherwise and minimize the potential of this particular incident helps perpetuate the culture and behavior of "acceptable levels of incompetence and normalizing the risk".

After reading Joe's reply, one could surmise that the fact that the fire never crossed the control line was fire managements biggest concern here. Last I remember "Public and Firefighter Safety" is the #1 objective on all of our incidents.

As I once again read through Joe's reply and explanation of events to Dick, words such as blind luck at the best and total incompetence at the worst come to mind. My perceptions.

sign me: _________ & Joe, I hope you have read Jodi Heath's post and have shared it with all of the module leaders who work for you. An awesome responsibility it is taking kids and turning them into firefighters and having their trust and faith in our leadership abilities.

I too anxiously await the "official" report on the Florida burns. Until then I am glad to see folks like Dick Mangan continue to be involved in not only this forum but the entire fire community. Dick, I liked your reference to the NWCG definition of entrapment as it possibly relates to this event!

Tony Duprey
Battalion Chief
R5, LPF
aka Killer
2/29 Ab, Rogue, Dick & other folks:

Im sure the investigation will all proove this with time. As Joe F. said... DONT SPREAD RUMORS!!!!

Any body ever had your beard or mustache singed? What about that little piece of metal heating up on your gloves and "burning" you? Heat blast is all this guy got, from a little eddy of wind on the edge of a grass burn. There wasnt any big evacuation, closure of the burn, & it was joked about (by the victim) afterward in the AAR. Personally I'd say 3rd degree burns go a little far, but i'm not the one paid to make that decision.

I'm also not the one making the decision to investigate, but it is MY personal opinion that this may have been blown a little out of proportion, just my two cents before everybody blasts me. We've all been burnt a little bit before, it happens. yes yes, someone will say 2nd & 3rd degree is excessive, but i already said, may not (probably not) have been just that bad...

Joe summed it up, just wait folks.

sign me: _________
2/29 Re: Old Crusty Guy & Lobotomy & Apples & Oranges,

To take this contractor vs fed finding a step further, I think, since the contractors have sought and received "national contracts" to assist them in their quest for a fair wage across regional boundaries and agencies, not only must the same "type" of engine be compared, but a contractor engine must be compared to a "national" average of daily cost for fed engines. I'm sure any regional NFMAS rep has this info. As lobotomy is so frequent and correct in pointing out, there is a large disparity in position classification for those doing the same duties across agencies and the nation. I'll bet my dollars to your doughnuts that there are hundreds of GS-5's, 6's and 7's performing "captain's" duties all across the nation outside of California and especially East of the Mississippi.

And, let's not forget to include the NPS and the BLM in any kind of comparison survey. They really know what type 6 engines are, it's about all they have. Many contractors seldom work inside forest boundaries, should I ask why the comparison was based just on USFS engines? Should the USFS and Region 5 give up the ranch just because there are squatters along the fence and congress is pinching the wrong pennies.

Then again, many of the new and some of the old federal crews and engines don't have adequate (or any) housing or facilities for their new personnel and equipment. Toss those necessary and as yet to be funded costs into the national yearly average for a type 3 engine or handcrew and see how it compares. It's called indirect costs, but it all comes off the top before each forest suppression manager sees any real money for modules. You can't forget to include the pencils, paper, telephones, computers, square footage, administrative, personnel, electricity, heating, and other costs assessed by each administrative unit when calculating module costs. Contractors absorb these costs by being highly efficient, or they go out of business. Some forests rake so much off the top that their modules are operating at 50% of MEL. One need only check the theysaid archives on this site to hear from the victims.

Currently the federal fire and aviation management organizations are forced to complete and submit lengthy and complex justifications to try and fulfill the immediate need requirements of their modules and employees. Sadly enough, even if justified and approved, they will be scheduled for completion some time in the next 3-5 years. Too late.

So forget it. I give up. Let's outsource. Let the outside in. Make the outside the inside. I'm sure once all federal resources are gone that there won't be any dramatic surge in contracting costs. Fighting a forest or brush fire really isn't inherent government business is it? After all, aren't 80% of all national firefighting resources composed of volunteers? What the heck, let's let them do it. They can call in their local contractor when they need assistance.

Sorry, I seem to have lost my point, I think it was all about numbers, but then I do tend to

Ramble
2/29 Mellie, I apologize. I guess I'm a "math" or "statistics" geek also. But the math and stats must add up and didn't in the report. I look forward to your "reprimand" in person at the Div. Chiefs Conference.

In my tours of the U.S. over the last twenty plus years, I continually ask myself.... what if.... ?..... is there a different way?... or a better way? .....How can we combine ideologies? ......Can we combine methodologies?.... How can we make sure we don't repeat the failures of the past? ..... How can we educate each other? .....How can we make the Federal Wildland Fire agencies the safest ever? .....How can we save the Federal Taxpayer money......

Mellie, hope to see 'ya next week....

Lobotomy
2/29 Happy LEAP Day! Ab.
2/28 Reply to contract vs. agency fire:
Well, this is what I was talking about last week. Apples and Oranges as others put it.

Why use a Cleveland engine for a study on a Type 6 engines??? (for mathematical creativity I guess.)
The Cleveland does not use type 6 engines, so why use them in the study?

I understand that for the study they hypothetically removed some personnel to only include 3 persons in the study. However, the study uses the special salary and locality pay of the Cleveland engine to compare to the different locality of the region 6 area. The study took the quals. and pay of the Cleveland to make the agency personnel costs appear larger. The Cleveland's salary and locality pay are adjusted to include the level of complexity that the personnel are performing at and the extreme cost of living in this area. Cleveland's fire personnel must use S.C.B.A. and other equipment for vehicle fires and structure protection. They must perform at the level of professionalism required for multi-agency urban interface fires where type 6 engines have no business. The Cleveland Firefighters are either first responders or EMT qualified. There are higher pay and higher quals. required for the supervisors, so the higher supervisory or administrative cost of the study are also stretched. This study is a far stretch of imaginative and creative math.

Car salesmen are also good at this type of math. They will take new vehicle out there in the parking lot and make it appear very cost effective and affordable any way you look at it. However, if you bring your own calculator you can almost always prove them wrong.

Okay, so the study is fraudulent or stretched, but there are other issues to consider. We compared a contact Firefighter to a Forestry Technician. The Firefighter has no 'other duties.' The Forestry Tech. is also used for other projects in conjunction with his/her fire obligations. Are the contract fire personnel obligated to assist the public with whatever they need? Are they going to assist Recreation or Facilities or the Botanist or Biologist or whatever the Ranger or Forest Supervisor needs help with? Have them clean some crappers in their down time and see what happens to your mathematical study!

What about the extra public service that is spawned and harbored only with the dignity and professionalism of a fire agency or fire department can offer?

Someone commented to this issue by saying -- "try to convince the powers that be of the merits of maintaining a fully funded national wildland fire agency... if you believe it is the Govt's. place to provide fire protection." ---
If not, why even consider contracting out this service? We all know the validity, the responsibility, and the need for this resource and service. And we all know what a load of crap that this last study was.

The Forest Service Fire personnel are performing well above the low standards required by a shoty job description. The outsourcing of this resource would lower current level of service being obtained by the Government. (That is my real-world study.)

The only possible valid point was the usage of contract equipment to stabilize fluctuations of MEL.

Old Crusty Guy
2/28 Lobotomy, I am one of those math types, as in statistical analysis. Ahem... you gonna be at the
Div Chiefs' Conf? I might need to reprimand you in person???

Good comment about Apples and Oranges:
In statistical analysis, when apples are compared to oranges in my field of research, the oranges
are made as apple-like as possible for comparison purposes.

If no Type 6 Fed engines are available for comparison with Type 6 contractor engines in this study, I
wonder why those doing the study didn't choose to modify Type 3 engines FROM THE SAME
LOCATION as the Type 6 engines in Oregon. Without controlling for location, one can
always argue that the differences in costs are attributable to something other than the engine
module cost itself. Perhaps the difference is due to higher engine or engine crew costs
associated with southern CA, for example.

<hug for Jodi>
Mellie
2/28 Dear Mrs. Heath,

I am very moved by your post. I am a member of the Entiat Hotshots and have been for 8 years; including 2001, the year that we were involved with the 30-mile fire. Much of what you said touched me and resounded with the experience I had with the tragic loss of life. I had problems with the report that came out after 30-mile - And a lot of anger over the whole thing - I have not yet read the report on the Cramer fire, but I intend to do so.

I have a few friends who knew and worked with your son and Jeff. They have said good things about them both. I also attend Boise State University and have seen the monuments for both Shane and Jeff.

I cannot possibly say the depth for which I feel for you and your family and Jeff Allen's family, and for all who lose their lives doing this job I love.

I hope and pray that you find the peace to be able to sleep soundly again, God Bless you and yours,

Matt Kennedy

p.s. please disregard the vast majority of what the media chooses to focus on concerning the incident, in my experience it is on the verge of being false, and/or rarely hits the target. MK
2/28 Someone who works with emergency services is looking for photos from the Santa Clara Complex (California, July 2003). Anybody have some? They need to know ASAP. Ab.
2/28 Backburnfs, I must have been a little unclear on my post..... As usual, you seem to prod me to clarify my statements. First, I did agree with many statements in the study, but I've clarified my concerns with some glaring problems.

I did see that they did "an adjustment factor" in their study. As I said before, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

You can "adjust" the cost of an apple (type 3 engine) to be comparable to that of an orange (type 6 engine)... or a Hotshot Crew (apple) to a Type 2 Crew (orange).. but what it comes down to is that they are different and can't be reliably used to make a valid comparison. The apple and the orange each have their place, as do the type 3 and type 6 engine, or hotshot crew and type 2 crew. Each has different capabilities and tastes that do not cross the "cost" boundaries.

Also, beware of "math brains" ..... I was told that they can always skew data to show whatever they want. The Federal Government has been using that approach for years, I'm sure the contractors know how to do it also.

Hey backburnfs, would you support my following statements regarding the western United States? These are "math" facts. I threw in a "minor flaw" to keep you guessing. This is data from 1980 to 2003. I'd appreciate the discussion.

Statement #1 - Region Five has the highest average preparedness costs in the west.

Statement #2 - Regions 6 and 1 have the highest average expenditures for large fire suppression.

Statement #3 - Regions 6 and 1 have the largest number of contractors (or "For Profit Fire Departments") providing service to the Federal Government.

Statement #4 - Regions 6 and 1 have the largest average yearly contractor associated costs. These costs are "preparedness" and fire suppression costs.

Statement #5 - Region 5 has the lowest average associated contractor costs in the west. Region 5 has the highest average co-operator costs in the west.

Statement #6 - Region 5 has the largest number of Federally Protected acres, not counting Alaska.

Statement #7 - Region 5 has the second lowest cost of "Average Cost per year by protected acre", second only to Nevada. The California population is 35.4 million people. The Nevada population is 2 million.(2000 Census Records).

Statement #8 - Region 5 has the lowest costs per federal taxpayer (per federal acre protected) for federal wildland fire protection in the nation. Region 5 also has the highest number of "urban interface" acres in the nation.

Dam*, that's some data for 'ya......

Lobotomy
2/28 An informal gathering for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association members and
interested parties... is scheduled for the R-5 Division Chiefs / Hotshots / Captains
Workshops.

Ask around at the workshops for details!!!!

FWFSA_SoCAL
2/28 Dick, regarding your post and the subsequent replies.....

....."a TNC employee received a 2nd degree burn to his nose and a 3rd degree burn to his hand"....

As an average viewer and wildland firefighter, just my educated guess is that this firefighter fell face first into a pile or jackpot of fuel based upon injuries. But it's just a guess....

As a professional and current fire manager, I won't jump to any conclusions about the injury until it can be investigated and given to the public.

It wasn't a "burn over" or "entrapment"... but it was an injury of serious consequence that should be investigated and given to us in due time as "lessons learned".

Many firefighters have said for years that "prescribed fires" are more dangerous than wildfires.

With fire and smoke exposure, why aren't firefighters paid Hazardous Duty Differential for "prescribed fires" when they seem to be so dangerous.

There are at least three "prescribed" fires that involved fatalities and countless others that involved serious injuries to firefighters.

Dick, you championed the Safety cause and the Firefighter Fatalities studies... why hasn't this changed? I'd like to hear your opinion..... Thanks

Rogue Rivers
2/27 Dear Jodi,

Your strength in posting your message has moved me deeply. I will never
forget the sacrifice of Shane and Jeff and will carry the lessons of this
tragedy with me into the field.

God Bless you
Terry T
2/27 Jodi;

Thank you for your post. Words are cold comfort for your loss, but they are all I can give.
I would also thank Mellie for the post and say that it caught my feelings quite well. I just read
the Cramer report and tried to put myself in the same position as your boy in the hope of
learning something that might save me in the future. "There but for the grace of god go I" is a
thought that has crossed my mind when I come across situations that could have been really
bad but were avoided due to training or dumb luck.

I pray that no other families have to go through what you have.

Domaque.
2/27 Jodi;

Mellie is far more articulate than I, but…please know you have the support of the entire wildfire community,
and may the sorrow of your son’s death never be forgotten, but let it be overshadowed by the joy of his life.

Nerd on the Fireline
2/27 Joe - after reading the attached report that talked about 2nd and 3rd degree burns, I assumed that they
resulted from the individual getting burned over. Maybe the NWCG definition of "entrapment" works
better: "a situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire-behavior related, life threatening
position........." ??

2nd degree burns to the nose puts a lot of heat real close to the respiratory system, which isn't real
tolerant of high temps.

Sorry for the confusion, but I'm still concerned that a prescribed burn can result in 2nd and 3rd degree
burns as the attached report describes.

Dick
2/27 Jodi, thank you for your post.

My warm hug envelopes you for your loss. From everything I have heard, your son and his best friend were a pair of lights and they are too soon gone. Truly when a member of our fire community dies, we all feel the loss, we all grieve, we all want to understand. Usually it is not one choice or decision or act that causes the death, but a number of "holes in the slices of swiss cheese" that line up to create the tragedy. The "Swiss Cheese Model of Wildland Fire Tragedy" is a good way to look at all the layers of what occurred and could have contributed to the tragic outcome.

On most days the "holes in the layers of swiss cheese" don't line up and no tragedy occurs. Occasionally they line up with devastating outcome. Some holes may seem random, a small decision here and a choice there, a change in fire behavior, the weather. Human factors that cause groundpounders to minimize the risk or unexpected and overwhelming emerging problems across a region of many fires combined with human factors that cause managers to overlook the risk. Sometimes the "holes in the swiss cheese" may be systematic patterns that, if only we could see them, we could prevent them from occurring in the future. Wildland firefighters seek to understand potentially repetitive patterns that could lead to a reoccurrence of tragedy. They strive to identify and minimize the holes.

The process of trying to understand the "how" and "why" is the way wildland firefighters honor those who have died and try to make those deaths meaningful. Lessons Learned. None of us live in a vacuum. No man is an island, especially in our fire community. We are all inexorably joined.

In the process of trying to understand, it sometimes seems that there is a "blame game" that goes on. In my experience, this does not happen within the fire community itself. The community -- to a person -- is torn up by the deaths. The blame game does occur in the media. Journalists usually just don't understand, unless they are also firefighters.

In the fire community, most firefighters realize that tragedy has many antecedents and contributing factors at all levels -- from the firefighters themselves on up to everyone involved at the highest level. Who might shoulder the most blame often depends on the perspective of the viewer. No one is harder on themselves than the individual somehow involved in the tragedy. My groundpounder friends often look at what the firefighters did or didn't do, so as to know what they should or shouldn't do in the future. My fire manager friends look at what the managers did that contributed, because that's where they focus on understanding what went wrong and how they could prevent a similar error or oversight. Truth is, it's usually not only one person or another, it's the overall gestalt, dynamic or wedge of swiss cheese that creates the tragedy.

What is the perspective of firefighters on the ground? Groundpounders must believe that a firefighter's safety lies within him or herself. They believe this because they know that they must always work to maintain "situational awareness" to keep themselves and their crew safe. Fire is an unpredictable and fickle element, sometimes it is a killer.

To the outsider it may seem that groundpounders tend to "blame the victim". This is not the truth of the matter, however. It is simply what they must do psychologically: they must imagine themselves as the "victim" and determine what, if anything, they might do differently under similar circumstances to avoid being the victim. Growth, change, and their future functioning and survival depends on this process. If Shane and Jeff were alive they would tell you this same story. More than any other group I know, firefighters internalize the deaths of their peers. Shane and Jeff live on within many in our community. In the face of such tragedy, I believe also that all firefighters, regardless of religious belief, have something akin to the deep down feeling "There but for the grace of god go I."

Let me say that I love you, m'dear. I hope I haven't been too academic. I can't begin to imagine the enormity of your loss. You must know, I have felt some of your pain. We all have. We are all in this together.

<another hug for you>... as much to comfort me as to comfort you,
Mellie
2/27 Dear Ab,

My name is Jodi Heath my son Shane was one of the firefighters who died in the Cramer Fire. I have had long talks with Vicki Minor at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and she has told me over and over to write to you, so here it goes.

I thought the worse day of my life was July 22, 2003 when my daughter Lacie called me and told me that Jeff Allen had been killed along with his partner on a fire that day. She said it had to be Shane because they always went out together. I spent the next 15 minuets making calls to find out what had happened. No one could tell me. Lacie called back a few minuets later crying that Shane was dead, at that same moment a green car pulled up to our house and I knew it was true my son was gone. As the days passed we knew that something had to have gone wrong, something more than just a blow up. To get us through, we had to tell ourselves that it was his time and he truly loved what he was doing. (I think he was born to cut trees, he had his C by the middle of his second season and he was good.)

Jan. 12, 2004 the day the report was released to us proved to be just as bad as the day we were told he was dead. I never in all the months waiting for the report thought that I had lost my son because of so many human errors. When I read some of the theysaid posts after the report was released, I so wanted to write to you but I really am not good at this kind of stuff so please help me out.

I am just a mom and really don't know but a few of the terms used when you all talk about most of this, but I do know that the only wrong thing Shane and Jeff did was to trust. They trusted that the people over the fire that day were watching their backs. We know from the report that the boys had felled 150 to 200 trees that day, some larger some smaller, some had decay and some were on quite a slope. We were told that they had worked their butts off and that they were two of the best. I have read that they should have been more aware of what was going on around them -- again they trusted that there had been lookouts posted. They trusted again when at 2:42 they were told a ship was on the way and yet again at 2:50 and 3:05 to stay put -- a ship was on the way. If they had been told at 2:42 to get the hell out of there they could have made it to H-4 which didn't burn over till much later in the fire.

Shane and Jeff were in radio contact with the Indianola base through out the day. As far as we know, the persons overseeing the fire had not been in contact with the boys or with Indianola during the day to see how they were doing. Some feel the delays were due, in part, to the number and condition of the trees (decay).

There is a new less redacted report which we received last week. It helps make things a little more clear, but not enough. I have written a letter to Senator Craig of Idaho asking for his help in obtaining a full unredacted report.
We have also been told that it will not be made known to the public what, if anything, will be done to the persons who partly may be responsible for Shane and Jeff's deaths.

Not knowing the full story, it haunts me daily to think that the same person or persons making decisions on the day of our son's death, may once again be in charge of making decisions that could endanger the lives of other firefighters. Did they put Shane and Jeff at risk? Might they do so again? If the investigations continue into the next fire season, how are we to know in time to protect other kids?

I hope your readers can use some of this to answer their questions. Ab, Vicki said you were a whiz at this so please do what you need to do with this info. A lot of what I have told you may be my own hurts. Maybe having done this it will help me move on a little. If you have any ?'s please e-mail me.

Thanks again,
maybe I'll be able to sleep a little better tonight
Love,
Jodi Heath,
just a mom who misses her most loved son

Jodi, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feelings. As I emailed you, your post is fine as you sent it in. We all mourn the loss of Shane and Jeff, but I can't imagine the loss, helplessness, confusion, and heartbreak a parent feels. Our hearts go out to you. Ab.
2/27 Could you please post this conference information from North Lake Tahoe Fire Protection District?
It is also available on our web site www.nltfpd.net.

Thanks
NS

Readers, please go to the website and download the front and back brochure pdf files. The conference is entitled Company Officer Training Symposium and takes place on April 19-21. Ab.
2/27 Has anyone out there used a Compressed Air Foam System (CAFS) on wildland fires?
How effective was it? What was it used for (structure protection, burnout, etc) ? Would
a smaller system be suitible for a Type 6 engine? Would it be useful or just another gadget
to take up space in the cache?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Domaque
2/27 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 are updated. Ab.
2/27 Hey Gang,

I found the study on Contract vs Agency absolutely fascinating. We should all give alot of credit to those who conducted the study. Although we may may not all agree with the study, it provides a "somewhat" detailed accounting on how fire is budgeted for a specific geographical program.

As for as Lobotomy's comment regarding the Coronado, I wouldn't go stepping through the cow pasture in Tucson so quickly. I would put faith in the study in Tucson before anywhere else, only due to the fact that I'm familiar with the programs we run here in AZ.

Please keep in mind, Tucson and SE AZ (Coronado NF) has only a few private contractors in the area, Rural Metro being one of them. They do supply T-6 engines and T-2 hand crews under contract with both the AZ State Land Department and the Feds. What is more interesting though is the fact that local fire departments and districts also have "contracts" with the same agencies. North West Fire District, one of the largest fire districts in AZ, has such a contract, providing T-6, T-3, and hand crews to who ever calls. Due to the fact that here in AZ, we do not have a large wildland fire agency similir to CDF/NDF/ODF and the like, the state contracts local fire departments/district to provide that level of fire protection under a cooperative agreement similar to an EERA. Some departments are really into the wildland scene, with red carded folks who also play on national Type 1 & 2 teams, state of the art fire equipment, and interagency cooperation which shadows what I see in California.

Yes, these "contractors" are cheaper than some of the fed crews, but the money made by these fire departments provides for additional revenue to augment tight budgets.

Bottom line, in the Coronado study, your "contractors" were most likely local fire departments providing engines and crew on either severity or IA money. Here in AZ, local fire departments will be given "first out" consideration/opportunity on severity, IA, and EA assignments prior to the private contractors being called up.

Also, the BIA provides T-2 crews. Crews are made up of almost 99% AD's, which as I'm sure you know, are much less expensive than a crew full of GSs. These T-2 fire crews are also added into the mix when local forests budget for severity and prescribe fire projects.

By the way, if your looking for that 10 person hand crew, check out your local helitack crew, minus the helo.........

AZ Trailblazer
2/27 SmokeChaser;

I like the way this discussion is going; I think we’re coming up with some good ideas. The idea of drivers as extra ‘camp slugs’…I can see that being useful, especially with some training for them. How about using those drivers, with some mechanical training, for doing vehicle inspections while their crews are on the line? I remember a lot of complaints about slow inspections, substandard equipment, and lack of personnel for mechanical evaluations last season. We’ve got five licensed EVOs on our crew, and we’re all more than capable of checking a tire pressure or looking over an engine. We’ve all had forty hours of state training, plus umpteen hours of internal department training for driving ambulances. No reason I can see why driving a crew buggy should be all that different. The physics are the same even if the urgency isn’t. My main point is that I think that the driver should be someone who’s not on the line; some one who won’t be hopping with adrenaline on the way to the fire, and bone-tired after it.

Nerd on the Fireline
2/27 Sergiy,

Virginia has come a long way in the past several years with their wildfire academies. Generally the state offers at least 3 weekend wildfire academies each year. Every academy offers the S-130/S-190 courses, plus a pack test, and 3 to 5 other S courses. Last years offerings included S-232 Dozer Boss, S-270 Basic Air Ops, S-390 Fire Behavior Calcs., as well as several urban interface courses and a entry-level dozer operator school. There is an academy coming up in May in south-central virginia and another in september in south-west virginia. Check the virginia dept of forestry for more info. I think it is www.vdof.org. May be a bit of a drive from NC, but there are enough courses to make it worthwhile.

On_Fire
2/27 Hey, ALL OF YOU NATIONAL (WASHINGTON D.C. OFFICE TYPE FOLKS)!!!!

Get involved in the discussion...
OR KEEP LURKING...
or hiding...
your choice...

After talking to many of you on the San Bernardino NF this week during the National
Leadership Team meetings (Forest Service), I have found that many of you read this
page and know alot about the issues and are in favor of changes. I'd like to ask you to
engage the workforce on this page and express a personal opinion..... even if it is your
own "personal opinion".

SPEAK OUT...
EXPRESS YOUR OPINIONS...
or keep quiet, wait until retirement, or avoid the real issues until someone else gets hurt
or killed.

The field level wildland firefighters are listening and watching...
Follow the leader...
or Lead By Example...
Step up to the plate and address the issues head on....
as a leader.

Rogue Rivers
2/27 Ab,

Hopefully this will help in Sergiy's search for training.

http://204.84.39.7/Training.htm That is Black Mountains training schedule. It gets updated
every month.

(828)667-5211 That is the phone number to NC Forest Services District 1 office.
(828) 259-5636 That is the Asheville FD phone number, just ask for someone in training.
Finally, the Virginia DOF does a nice training seminar (from what I have been told, never
been) but, you can get info from their web site: www.vdof.org/info/training.shtml

Let him know that getting wildfire courses can be hard in this part of the country. Just keep
calling and be willing to drive; those are my big words of advice. Don't forget about the
National Forests and Parks in that area (Asheville IHC has to train sometime). Also when
you contact those Fire Departments ask about the regional fire seminars, sometimes they
offer S-130/190.

-NCCrew
2/27 Lobotomy, you did not read the contract study very carefully or you would see that they made adjustments to the Cleveland Engine 34 personnel costs to some how make it equal a 3 person type 6 crew. Not excusing any of the bias or any other of the BS in the study but Don Carlton is a former FS employee and a major math brain. Not saying he is not biased to the contract side, but just that he knows how to build a study of this type.

As far as the money for a Hotshot Crew, $500,000.00 will fund a IHC crew for an entire year with 110 days of fire availability, with a Permanent Superintendent and Assistant Superintendent, 3 PSE Squadleaders and 2 PSE Senior firefighters, and 13 TEMP GS-4 Firefighters.

Seems like they could have found some more T-6 engines around to study instead of changing the numbers of a Model 62 on the Cleveland.

Contract fire resources are a fact of life like it or not. Some are good and some are weak just like agency resources.

Try to convince the powers that be of the merits of maintaining a fully funded professional national wildfire agency, if you believe that it is the government’s place to provide wildland fire protection.

If you want to see a private mercenary wildland fire protection system, then try convince them that the agencies with fire protection responsibilities are ineffective and cost too much.

There are millions and millions of dollars at stake in this debate, that is what it is all about.

I think I can see where it will end up if the current trend continues.

Backburnfs
2/27 Dick Mangan's posting yesterday incorrectly stated there were two burnovers
on prescribed fire projects in Florida. This is incorrect. The first
incident referenced was NOT a burnover. There was no entrapment
whatsoever. The Nature Conservancy was conducting a burn with the
assistance of a crew from the Prescribed Fire Training Center. A wind
shift caused fire to threaten a mowed wetline. A TNC employee grabbed a
lateral line on a hose lay and cooled the fire down. The fire never
crossed the control line. Even though he had full PPE including a face
shroud, he received burns on nose and hand from radiant heat. Again this
was NOT a burnover. The local TNC FMO has an interagency team reviewing
the incident today, and any "lessons learned" will be shared through
appropriate channels. We all should realize that passing on
un-substantiated rumors can create lots of unneeded concern, phone calls
and general hassles for the folks involved. Wait for facts.

Joe Ferguson
Fire Management Staff Officer
National Forests in Florida
2/27 Nerd On The Fireline,
I can relate to and understand your reasoning about "non-crew drivers"...
However...
Don't mean to ruffle any feathers here...but the reality is...sometimes ya just gotta get on the road to keep the gov't happy, why do they need to wait for a special driver to arrive to shuttle a crew to a new incident, when there is no doubt equally qualified crews that are "self-sufficient" that could make better time and provide services in a more timely manner?
I can only see this working to the benefit of EVERYONE involved, if the said "non-crew driver" were to travel with the crew to each incident, and essentially become a "camp-slug" while the crew is performing their work....then they are readily available for sudden changes in shift plans or incident changes.
Another alternative might also be to "stage" a pool of qualified drivers at a camp or a near by town/community to allow better access to their services if needed. The Gov't will end up paying the difference for the added personnel in the long run anyways...so why not make it a contract service, and supply each major incident with a pool of people that have driving experience in these conditions and use them as needed?

Just some alternative thoughts...
Thanks ,
Smoke-Chaser In ID
2/26 R6FF, great post...... You bring up important points.....

The study that you referenced had some glaring flaws.... I hope that the Fed's didn't really use it for a cost comparison. It was like COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES or CATS to DOGS.

First, from my initial review, it appears that the contractor compared their costs for a type 6 fire engine with the FEDERAL COSTS OF A TYPE 3 fire engine. Hardly an equal comparison. It's pretty easy to "snow job" the people doing the study if the contracting officer doesn't have any fire experience or knowledge. APPLES and ORANGES.

Second, jump in here hotshots. Last I'd heard, a HOTSHOT (Type 1 Crew) was far less expensive than the proposed contractor-provided TYPE 2 crew at $509,226.92 .

Some glaring points that make this study useless if used....
from the study....

"This study obtained actual cost data for a Type 6 engine module, a prevention unit, a twenty (20) person Type II hand crew, and a ten (10) person hand crew. These costs were collected from modules operated in fiscal year 2001 on the Coronado National Forest in Region 3, the Cleveland National Forest in Region 5, and the Wenatchee National Forest in Region 6. Field visits were made to each forest by the study team to collect actual module cost data."

JUST FOR THE INFO OF THE READERS AND FOLKS WHO MADE THE STUDY, THE CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST DIDN'T HAVE ANY TYPE 6 ENGINES and NEVER HAS had any, NO TEN PERSON CREWS either, or a PERMANENTLY FUNDED 20 Person Type 2 Crew, except for a Regional Hotshot Crew in training.

I believe the Coronado National Forest information was of similar Bu>l>h>t or should I say B>uL>sh>t. Thats male cow dung for those sensitive and politically correct Region 5 readers who can't speak out in fear of offending anyone.

Lobotomy

2/26 Domaque and Backburnfs,

Nice to hear voices of reason in this silly discussion. I would just like to add that many more truck drivers are killed annually than fire fighters. Maybe it would be a better idea to hire firefighters to haul freight. If you look at the incredible amount of miles and crazy conditions we drive a season, it is amazing we don't have more serious incidents as it is. I think this goes to show that the defensive driving training the agencies are using are working and no other measures need to be taken.

ozone
2/26 New direction from FS Washington office concerning fire and A-76.

Ab Note: this has come in from a number of people. We are only posting the beginning pertinent info from the memo.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
File Code: 1310-2
Date: February 25, 2004
Subject: FAIR Inventory Guidance in Relation to Fire
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, Job Corps, and WO Staff

The Forest Service has worked with the Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management on the coding of fire activities for the 2004 Federal Activities Inventory Reform (FAIR) Act Departmental Response and will use the following guidelines:

Fire activities should be entered into the FAIR Act database using Function Code S440 and use one of two subcodes A or B. These subcodes are described in our earlier guidance.

Some highlights of how to handle Fire include:
  • All policy, planning and management activities will be inherently governmental.
  • All qualified Initial Attack Incident Commanders, smokejumpers and hotshot crew will be IG.
  • All attack preparedness activities will be classified as Commercial, Reason Code A.
  • Other activities, e.g., prescribed burns will be classified Commercial, Reason Code B.
  • Support activities/functions e.g., human resources, facilities maintenance, etc., should be coded under their respective functional code, rather than S440.

<snip>

2/26 About driving, FS rules are attend defensive driving every 3 years, Region
6 has also required CDL and 24 hour professional truck driving training for
many years for all vehicles over 26,000 GVW. This includes IHC Crew
Carriers, 500 and 1000 gallon engines, tenders, transports etc.
Maintenance costs reduced and better drivers as a result.

Hiring drivers for fire crews will only add to the cost and reduce the
resources capability to perform on the line. There are many ways to
mitigate driving time on fires such as locating satellite or spike camps
closer to the incident or using coyote tactics.

Last year on several incidents driving times from base camp to the line
exceeded 1 hour each way, add in an hour hike to the line and IMT's
insistence on returning to base camp to get "good rest" and you are talking
about 4 hours per day of travel time. This is putting crews on the line
just when things are heating up and taking them off the line before things
settle down for the night.

Overhead teams are not all the same and there is no consistency as to why
some allow crews to spike and some want all the resources in camp by 2000.
Management of travel time should be near the top of the list after safety
and tactics are considered. Line resources' input should be solicited by
overhead for ways to manage excessive travel time.

Backburnfs
2/26 A couple of burnover events with personal injuries in Florida during the past 7 days on PRESCRIBED BURNS!!

1 person received 2nd and 3rd degree burns on a Nature Conservatory burn in conjunction with the National Prescribed Fire Training Center, west of Tallahassee, on 2/18/04;
3 Florida Department of Environmental Protection folks were "seriously burned" on a 250 acre prescribed burn on the St. Sebastian River Buffer Preserve on 2/24/04.

Both burns were planned events! Let's be careful, even on prescribed fires, folks!

Dick Mangan
2/26 Abs,
As long as everyone is reminiscing about pick up crews, I might as well add my memories.

I grew up in Placerville, CA in the 1960s. One summer, a fire known as Kelsey Mill and others in the Sierra foothills were running hard and fast. My father, who had no experience as a fire fighter, received a phone call from the Sheriff telling him to report to the ranger station for duty. My friend Stevie's dad got the call, too. Apparently, the sheriff started at the front of the phone book and worked his way through, ordering all "able bodied men" in El Dorado county to the fire lines.

Dad returned some time later looking like he had been wallowing with the pigs, and slept for two days. It's all us little squirts in the neighborhood could brag about for the next year. Of course, no one could tell us our dads weren't on par with John Wayne after seeing the tin hardhats and metal, four-cell headlamps they brought home. I still have the old headlamp around somewhere (don't tell the cache in Placerville, though. They still may be looking for it).

S.R. Sparky
2/26 Dear Sirs,
Could you please advise of the nearest place to Black Mountain or Ashville,
NC where it possible to take the S130 and S190 training.
Thank you,
Sincerely
Sergiy M

Hickman, NCCrew, NCBrush6 are any of you a Sir? Any ideas for training? ... I'm sure this has come up before, I just don't remember the answers. Ab.
2/26 D~ (sorry, your moniker is hard to spell)

As far as passing illegally, it may not have been that cut and dried. My recollection
from some report or other is that the driver had passed a vehicle and was moving
back into his lane when the non-passing stripe appeared. If true, how many of us
have made that kind of slightly wrong judgment call? When I have done it, I guess
I've been lucky not to meet a semi head on.

Can anyone remember the article or report I'm thinking of?

Tahoe Terrie
2/26 Ab;

I have to add my two cents about the non crew driver discussion. First, I must say that I am saddened by the senseless auto accident deaths on the First Strike crew last year. But, would a special driver really have solved the problem? If a special driver makes a bad decision and illegally passes a truck on a double line, wouldn't the result be the same? If you get special drivers for Hand Crews, what about Engine crews? What about single resource overhead? Don't they get fatigued on a fire?

I MIGHT agree that some extra training would be needed for those who are going to drive top heavy vans or six pack pickups if the accident was due to a rollover or driver inexperience. But the accident was due to a bad decision to pass a truck. I don't think there has to be anything done in response to this tragedy, there are defensive driving classes in place with the FS and some of the contractors do similar programs to reduce there insurance rates. I will say as an ENGB and CRWB(T), this accident has made me more aware that you have to keep your people safe on the road as well as on the fire.

Thanks,
Domaque (formally from Idaho, now from North Dakota!)
2/25 In response to the last part of WP's post, the law he references is still on the books in Idaho. Here's the pertinent Idaho Code verbatim (italics are mine):

TITLE 38
FORESTRY, FOREST PRODUCTS AND
STUMPAGE DISTRICTS
CHAPTER 1
IDAHO FORESTRY ACT 38-133. OFFICERS CHARGED WITH ENFORCEMENT.
The director of the department
of lands and his assistants, fire wardens, conservation officers and their
deputies and all other peace officers of the state are hereby charged with the
enforcement of the criminal provisions of this chapter and shall have full
power and it shall be their duty to arrest with or without warrant any person
found violating any of the provisions of this chapter or rules and regulations
of the state board of land commissioners after notice made pursuant hereto and
take him before a magistrate and make complaint, and when any such officer
shall have information that such violation has been committed he shall make
similar complaint.

The authority of the fire wardens respecting the control or suppression of
forest fires, summoning help or making arrests for violation of this chapter
or rules and regulations of the board may extend to any adjacent district or
to any part of the state in times of great fire danger, providing that in case
of conflict of authority resulting therefrom, the fire warden in whose
district the fire is located shall have ultimate control. In emergencies fire
wardens may commandeer tools, supplies and equipment and may employ
able-bodied persons or compel assistance of able-bodied persons and neither
the state board of land commissioners, the director, or his delegates, fire
wardens or deputy fire wardens, shall be liable to civil action for trespass
committed in the discharge of their duties; provided, that in performing their
duties they exercise reasonable care to avoid doing unnecessary damage.

On a side note, my father, who was a smokejumper out of McCall in the late '40s and early '50s, had several stories he would tell about he and other jumpers being put in charge of pick-up crews recruited from the bars of Weiser, Boise and McCall. I remember one that involved a two or three day hike into the fire in the central Idaho Primitive Area. By the time they arrived at the fire many of the crew member's shoes and boots had fallen apart and they had to hike back out barefoot.

Bullwacker

2/25 A contractor's figures comparing contract vs agency fire.

Go figure.

R6 FF
2/25 Update on competitive sourcing, (WO Staff) 1310-1:

Fleet Management & Forest Inventory/Analysis data collection are officially
off the table for the Competitive Sourcing process this fiscal year '04.

WW

2/25 Ab,

Looking back through some of the discussion on the Professional Biology (Firefighter) Series. Here are some docs explaining what qualifies for the series 0401.

Jackson, standards are for all FS, BLM, NPS, FWS, etc professional firefighters

GS-401 Qualifications Std, 8-28-02
Application of Education Experience GS-401 Quals, 8-28-02
Fire Mgmt Courses Creditable Towards 24hr Reqmt GS-401 Quals, 8-21-02

Noname
2/25 Ab and all,

I have not been able to read the board for a few days and did a little catch up, just a few comments and a bit of history re: hiring of crews out of the bars. It is true that way back when -- when men were needed for fire crews it was not uncommon to got to the larger cites (Portland and Seattle) and hire off of skidroad (skidrow). It is a fact that this was common practice in time of need. One could not go to the local town and get additional help as they were all employed and/or working the fire, "rangers" had to go where the unemployed were-sitting in the bars in big cites. The practice of hiring pickup crews with NO training and experience continued into the late 80's.

I was on a fire in Washington St. at that time near the town of Sultan and we were critically short of crews. Nasty piece of ground, no access - 2 mile walk to the base of the fire and 2000' straight up to the top. Inversion overhead, high temps and low humidity's. The order was placed for crews and into camp one night a Greyhound rolled and 40 people in new nomex and boots got off. They were recruited from the unemployment office off the streets of Seattle or Portland, given 2 days training and sent out to the fire line. Needless to say they did not last long, it seemed the only qualification was a beating heart. One of the crew members hired was physically disabled with one leg several inches shorter than the other but still sent out to work the steep ground, the young man did not last the day before quitting. I seem to remember about half of the crew quit the first day and most of the rest the second day, the new boots were as much as a cause as the ground. They were sent home on the third day (might of been day two-but it was a long time ago). I never saw "pickup" crews again that I can remember.

Also a note, there was a law on the books into the 1960s and maybe the 1970s that allowed conscription of private citizens in cases of emergencies to fight fires, stopping cars on the hiways and ordering the "men" to the fire line. My father in law tell a story of almost getting recruited in Idaho or Montana in the 50 or 60's. Anyone know if the law it still on the books.

WP
2/25 Mellie <smooch back at 'ya> , as someone once said... "You can't teach
an old dog new tricks" .... and Mellie, I can't type a short post...

The Federal Land Management Agencies are trying to teach it's current
and prospective fire managers "new" tricks. The surprise is that these
"new" tricks are just the same old jobs that they have been performing
for years. The agency spin... it must be a new "trick" since it's in a
"new" classification series for fire managers.

The basic spin of the trick is..... keep them confused.... they won't
know what they are really seeing. The fact is, wildland firefighters
know all of the tricks. They KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they are seeing.

Wildland Firefighter Classification is the new "21st Century Trick".
The Federal Land Management Agencies and OPM are really good at trying to
hide their "tricks" in many different classification series.

The fact of the matter is: Wildland Firefighters are currently
classified (hidden) in over ten different classification series within the
federal government. Firefighter retirement has been applied to over twenty
different series. This was never the intended purpose of the OPM employee
classification or the entitlement to firefighter retirement coverage.

Education is the key...... The 0401 series (Biological Sciences or
Natural Sciences Professional) is not a fix to the "Wildland Fire Series".
It is only a stop gap, temporary fix provided by the agencies. It
obviously has failed if they have to fill a National Leadership position at
the GS-455-12 technician level and can't or won't fill it under the
GS-0401 professional series.

HOW CAN WE HAVE TECHNICIANS at the GS-12 Level (GS-0462 and GS-0455) IMPLEMENTING AND DIRECTING POLICY for PROFESSIONALS at the GS-9, 10, and 11 levels (GS-0401, GS-0460, and GS-0454)..... Ooops.... broken down system. It is in direct conflict with the current classification standards. PROFESSIONALS (SCIENTISTS) direct and supervise the work of technicians.

One series GS-2 through GS-15.... the Wildland Firefighter Series.

Lobotomy
2/25 I am saddened to tell you that a west aussie volunteer fire fighter lost his life today when struck by a falling tree.

Flame

Condolences. Ab.
2/24 Mellie;

Favorite treat…hmm. We’ve gotten some great breakfast burritos (for those of you in more deprived parts of the country, that’s potatoes, scrambled eggs, green chile, and either bacon, chorizo, or chicharrones wrapped up in a tortilla with cheese), hot chocolate donuts are always popular on a long cold night on a structure fire (another point for wildland fire…you don’t usually get them at 25 below!), and we’ve got one lady who makes a mean frito pie (red chile, meat, and beans over Fritos…trust me, it works). Fights have started over the last half-dozen ginger snaps. We’ve done evacuations, disaster shelters, some long-*ss fires (structure and wildland), and I’d say it doesn’t matter what gets brought…gas-station powdered sugar doughnuts taste fabulous when you’re hungry, cold, tired, and they show up with a little sympathy for sauce.

Nerd on the Fireline
2/24 To all those looking for fire jobs it always helps to make some form of
personal contact. A face or voice with a name on quickhire goes a long
way. Just in case you haven't approached from this angle!!!

Thanks Ab
Terry T
2/24 To all those applying for jobs:

As someone who has been through the process many
times, it's a tough and often times confusing ordeal.
the frustration of having data erased can be
unbearable. then again, imagine if you were applying
to 20 different forests and had to fill out 20
different applications, not to mention BLM and NPS -
it would take forever. the process still has
problems, but it's getting better.

since we're on the topic, a little warning to those
applying: don't let your frustration at the system get
in the way of proofreading your application. check it
once, twice, and have someone unbiased check it too.
i accidentally omitted one question out of a few
hundred, and the computer kicked out my application!
i wasn't even considered for a job i was more than
qualified for. fortunately for me, i'm in a position
where it didn't cost me my livelihood for the summer,
but i know others aren't so lucky. so, word to the
wise - check and recheck!

good luck to those seeking jobs -

JerseyBoy
2/24 Taz Girl!

I have spent approximately 400 hrs applying online or filling the apps
out by hand or going to the post office or putting ink in my printer and
have apply for every permanent, term, temp, or other job in fire, fuels, or
maintenance, or motor vehicle from Alaska to Mojave, to Florida,
Tenn/Kentucky, VA, NC, and throughout the west and even Maine. I guess
this is what you have to do to get in. I might as well as I am laid off and
will have to go back to the fruit factory for a permanent job with benefits
for 10 an hr (A fate worse than death). Now there is nothing to tie me down
I want to be like the snowbird and live north in summer and south in winter.
I guess I will have to apply to everything unless I get lucky.

RH
2/24 The Jobs page as well as the wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 are updated. I think we have everything up to date after our isp move. Ab.
2/24 Here is a quote from the Australian NSW Premier Bob Carr 1/24/03.

"We can face the flame with a good heart and fight the battle that history
has brought us with a joke, a curse and a song".

I guess we could resolve to deal with AVUE the same way, since like fire it
is not going away very soon.

DF

2/24 I just want to chime in with RH in my agreement that the online applications are ridiculous!!! Maybe once you have all your information entered in ALL of the websites, it would be convenient, but it takes a LOT of time to get to that point. I have been helping my FF apply for jobs and it has taken us hours and a lot of deciphering as well. Some of those job announcements are very ambiguous and confusing overall. One part of the announcement will tell you to mail it and another is telling you to submit it online. There was a separate announcement for what I swear were the same jobs, just that one of the announcements was an extension, yet the application instructions were totally different! It was very frustrating and took us a couple of hours to get through it all. And that was just FIREJobs, we still have to get through AVUE. It makes no sense to me at all. My FF probably never would've gone through with this application process if it weren't for my help and general pushy nature. He would be WAY too frustrated and lazy and just stay on his regular crew, instead of putting his toe in the water and seeing what happens. All just because of this bureaucratic nonsense and frustration.

I am also going through the same thing now that I am applying for dispatch jobs. I spent an hour and a half on one online application, only for all of my transcript info. to be LOST when my phone rang. We just got DSL, I'm not used to that kind of thing. Every class I took, the date I took it, credits earned, grade, at all FIVE colleges...erased! So you can see my frustration. The information they disseminate is confusing too, like the other person on this board says. They list all the locations, ask you to choose seven. And then list new locations under the same announcement number and ask you to choose another seven. You really have to keep track. Well, I guess I've ranted enough. Hopefully, you see my point. They need to get it together. I think they lose a lot of applicants due to the overwhelming nature of applying. It's easier to apply to grad school!!! Or at least figure out HOW to apply. Just breathe, just breathe.... Thanks for letting me vent.

Taz Girl

You go girl! Some of that roller derby persona coming out?... Ab.
2/24 SJ, I have some calls in trying to find the answer to your question. Basically you want to
know if applying for a job that says NATIONWIDE puts you in last place for consideration
for a job on a particular forest. I do know that in the past applicants were cautioned not
to put 9999 (willing to go anywhere) for location because those apps were considered last
after apps that specified locations. I don't know if that's still one of the options. Interestingly,
the hiring folks on local forests don't know the answer this early in the hiring process. I'm
working my way up the information food chain. In the meantime, Six Rivers at Lower Trinity
and Mad River are hiring. There have even been some nice spots on the news and in the
newspaper about the Apprenticeship Program through those forest locations. Northern CA
sees its share of fire.

Lobotomy, thanks for doing what you do for wildland firefighters. You are the CONSUMMATE
PROFESSIONAL wildland firefighter in my book. <smooch> It seems that many who
might dialog on federal wildland series, portal to portal and other issues are teaching at the
Academy or are otherwise involved in all the winter training craziness.

Rogue Rivers, your comment about the job being flown at the National Level not coming
under the professional 0401 series may be true. Is this a problem with the transition to 0401
or will it be an ongoing problem?

Good clarification on crew drivers, Nerd. I know some of the Familysaid contributors (Sammi)
suggested using non-crew drivers some time back. Seems logical. What is your vote for the
best treat for the relief driver to bring along?

Chainsaw Charlie, I haven't talked with Andrea lately. Is some of the inaction on chain saw
training exacerbated by the likely change in directorship of CDF? Is there anything she could
do at this time? If your reply is not appropriate for theysaid, please get in touch with me and
let's discuss it. Ab can pass an email on.

Sammi, we love you!

Mellie

2/24 CDF Chainsaw Training:

To AL ETAL-

What we need at this point is someone to file a complaint with CalOSHA. Management will not act on the information they have, meanwhile employees are exposed to injury and illness every time they operate a chainsaw without training. It is happening everyday and for no legitimate reason. Now there is a buzz word-IIPP!

CDF management is incapable of making a decision even when given all the facts to decide. It is exactly this type of management bamboozling that gets them what they will soon deserve. The internal email that was distributed to the training chiefs is excellent documentation of a violation of their own IIPP program. The guy who sent that out to everyone did the little fella out there on the end of a 371 a big favor. Email is a wonderful tool 'aint it? The bold type on the key points will really be an eye catcher for the regulators.

It will take another fatality or broken body for them to get moving again, but this time it will be CalOSHA. The highest managers in CDF will be at great personal risk because there is plenty of documentation out there of their inaction, and fortunately for us minions, their names are on it. Those minutes are all over the place too 'cause they get posted on the public board.

Sleep tight fellas, your day may come sooner than you think.

Where is the union?

"Chainsaw Charlie"
2/23 To lobotomy,

My friend, I for one agree with you completely. Those that don't may not be
close enough to the issue to really understand. I did recently write my
congressman regarding legislation on portal-to-portal and strangely enough
he hasn't written back! Keep fighting the good fight and rest assured
reason usually wins out in the end.

Terry T
2/23 Smoke Chaser in Idaho;

I think the point that is being made about non-crew drivers is that if the driver is a full, ‘normal’ crewmember, they will have been on the line and subject to firefighting fatigue, adrenaline withdrawals, etc. A non-crew driver would be fresh, or comparatively fresh, and less likely to make fatigue-related errors on the road. I don’t really see how a re-direct in mid-transport would be a problem. I’m also not real clear on how a designated non-crew driver would be detrimental to crew cohesion. As a vollie, I’ve found that our department support group members actually increase crew cohesion; we’re always glad to see them (especially when they bring homemade doughnuts and gingersnaps), and looking forward to them coming, speculating about what treats they’re bringing us, and welcoming them when they get to us makes our crew stronger. I think a well-chosen non-crew driver could take the same role.

Nerd on the Fireline
2/23 I have been applying for jobs around the country since Christmas and
one thing that is apparent is that the Fish and Wildlife Service has one online
system (Cares), BLM has two for Quickhire and Fires with NPS and USFWS, and
the Forest service has ads, with USAJOBS has one also. So I had to type 20
years of experience, temp and permanent at many duty stations plus schooling
and all else, three whole times and could only paste it twice. Then a good
many jobs only want mailed applications, except for the few who will let you
e-mail a resume. This is all the same government, after all, and a waste of
the taxpayers dollar and that includes you and me.

The good thing about this is that once in, you only have to point and
click. I can see the trend of a centralized online system but how far away,
two, three, or five years? I think it is an advantage to all as clicks will
be gotten around at least to some extent. This will eliminate a great many
personnel people across the agencies and truly streamline the government
where a great many personnel people are on a quasi break from fall until
spring. They will probably not fill the positions once the employees
retire. However, a lot of these employees fill fire teams in personnel time
recorder, equipment time recorders, communications, transportation, tool
manager, etc. in the fire camps of the west every year and they will be
missed.

RH
2/23 I guess I've gotten to the point that I am questioning myself and my career.

I have been posting here since the "beginning" of Ab and wildlandfire.com.

I am a PROFESSIONAL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER!!

1. Are there any other wildland firefighters still out there who have the gumption to still speak out and support the cause of proper classification? Are there better answers? A complete classification series from GS-2 to GS-15 has been our goal. Wildland firefighters need their own classification series.

2. Does any other federal wildland firefighter still think that portal to portal pay should be applied across the board, when the pay is already applied to cooperators and other federal employees.

3. Is there a need for a FEDERAL WILDLAND FIRE SERVICE saving the American taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars each year?

I'd like to hear the discussion here........ If not, lets start the discussion in Congress....

Lobotomy
2/23 To those who are hiring:

Some firefighters have told me that I do not want to get on a national cert. My boss last year told me the same thing. My question is if I apply for the USA OPM job below, does that put me on a national cert? Is it better to find the announcement for the exact places I want to work and only apply to only those ones?
Forestry Aid (Fire) GS-0462-03 Nationwide
Notes: Multiple Locations

Thanks for your time yet again.
SJ
2/23 I haven't written in for a while, but the Cramer Fire report really brings up some questions in my mind.

I read back through the theysaid comments on the Cramer Fire tragedy and like VFD CAPT, I wonder most at the time delays, half an hour here, 15 min there. When the firefighters called in they must have said what they were doing to someone. Why did they need more time? What were they doing? What did it take longer than expected to do? Was their equipment not working as well as expected? Was the cutting/clearing taking longer than expected? Did they like get into whatever they were doing and forget situational awareness?

When helitacks are sent out to make a helispot, are they told where to make it? Are they told to make it SO big or bigger? How much direction is given? It must be based on experience and what's going on at the time.

I realize that we will probably never know exactly what happened to them to cause them to make the choices they made. I would like to know more if more is known so I can remember not to do that myself. I wonder if any who investigated got a feeling about what happened to cause the delays they asked for.

Ab, you said investigations report the facts that are known. Do investigation people sometimes not say all they think went on?

NIK

Investigators do not speculate in reports. Ab.
2/23 I have some questions about Lobotomy's post on 02/20 about the 0401 series and the classification of fire positions, especially in the USDI agencies.

How come a National Fire Management professional position is being advertised as a "technician"? Are there different sets of standards to be applied?

If the local fire managers are required to be "professionals' and be qualified under the 401 series, why are the National positions not required to be?..... Just a guess.... it's called pre-selection. I would think that there is probably somebody who is rightfully in line to promotion to this position, but does not qualify under the 0401 series.

Just a guess.....not meant to offend anyone......

Rogue Rivers
2/22 Jason – I’m currently doing the same thing as you.. Here are some tips that will make things go smoothly for you.
  1. Have your transcripts ready. After my interview with the selecting official Human Resources demanded I provide them within 48 hours on a Friday night. (This meant digging in garage all weekend – a sunny weekend in Seattle L)
  2. Answer your telephone, or cell phone with phone courtesy, “Good Morning, Afternoon, Evening – This is Jason.” (Impressions are a big deal. Use call forwarding if you must.)
  3. Check your email often, besides fire fighting I received 4 emails asking if I wanted to be a 0025. (LE/EMS) After interviewing for a fire job human resources did nothing but email me.
  4. Have a list of all your strengths, qualifications, and desires. Go to monster.com or firehouse.com for interviewing tips.
  5. Have a list of all your questions for any hiring official.
    • (Example) When I was called they said, “Well we have a fire fighting position that has a lot of indoor admin time, about 50% of it is admin.” I said, “Well what is the other 50%?” Answer: Eatin smoke. *No problem. For me.
    • My first question: “Got housing?”
    • Got Engines? (don’t hold it against me.)
    • What cell phones work out there? (I’m an only child and of course I have to call mom…)
    • Resources (engines, crews, dozers)
    • Training?
    • OT hours last season was? (I’m paying out-of-state fees for school. Please a lot of OT! *crosses fingers*)
    • Going out of state any for details??
    • Fuels in local area?
    • Initial Attack?
    • Stuck on the forest?
  6. Have an idea of what you will or will not do. I.E. “I’m from Washington and I’m not going to Kansas unless there is gov’t housing, and I’m at least GS-03.”

Another important thing is be business like and professional. Have your boots ready – If that means you drive to Spokane for smokejumpers then hey – a road trip never hurt. Don’t forget to pile some rocks into your pack and start practicing for your pack test. At GS-04 you may have only 3 to 5 weeks to get ready for your season. Sample: Interview March 3rd – Season starts April 1st (ouch) .

Good Luck, Take Care – Stay Safe.

Another Jason from PS

Thanks Jason. Ab adds: If you delight in creative phone messages, for the time being change it to a business-like message.
2/22 Jason, if you are serious about getting a wildland FF job, mail a CLEAN application to the hiring
boss on that forest; a week or so later follow up with a phone call... Killer said it best.

Your questions are same as asked here every year, lots of info in the archives on this site, read
them! In the meantime, start running up hill & down hill wearing boots & a pack with about 40#,
GOOD LUCK, PREPARE, STAY SAFE!

AB, I remember when my kid called to say "they pay me to picnic in the woods!" - of course that
was long before the crew was sent to the LP for the 3rd time! <grins> my kids are still "picnicking"
in the woods occasionally, 10+ yrs later!

PROUD PARENT!
2/21 Office Bound,

I know that the Redding shots have a 234 power point, maybe they can give you direction.

Bucky
2/21 Dear R6FF:

I worked for Bill Coutain on the Road Crew in Estacada in 97-98 and we
had the Douglas Dent Films in the S-212 course with Dennis Roberts as the
C Faller instructor.

RH
2/21 Hey Ab,
Just wanted to touch on the subject of "non-crew drivers":

I find it hard to implement a "non-crew" member to drive for a fire crew, as alot of us are dispatched to a new incident en route to our home base or R&R location. If it were a strictly R&R situation, i could see the possibility of this, but what happens when we get a new incident on the way home from a 4 or 5 day assignment? A "non-crew driver" would be more of a hassle, why not use a "relief" driver, or a base manager that is not on an assignment? Better yet.. why not train more of our crews to drive....so as to always have someone as a relief in an emergency or other situations that would not warrant a normal crew member driver from doing this task??

Let's just make all Crew Bosses and Squaddies driver qualified...and maybe even train a couple of the regular fire fighters for "special-situation" driving...such as return trips home or to a R&R location?

I know everyone has their own opinions, but why bring in a "non-crew driver"?...we don't need to be shuttled around. and i think it might take away a little bit of the crew cohesion, having an outsider driving crews around after an incident...

Maybe the real factor in all of this would be, how far do they have to drive? How long will they be on the road? how long have they been out? are they returning to a base or responding to a new incident?

alot to factor into the equation........just my thoughts....

Thanks....
Smoke-Chaser In Idaho
2/21 Jason,

In regards to your post of 2/21, as a long time Hotshot Captain my preference is for folks to call and set up an interview with me prior to my hiring them. Phone interviews should be a last resort. I always felt that if a person wanted the job bad enough they would make the effort to call and set up an appointment to put a face with the cold list we use to select from.

Now that I am a BC, my direction to my Captains is to not hire anyone sight unseen. I encourage them to interview in person all potential candidates.

What are we looking for? Honesty, integrity and the willingness to do what it takes to achieve your goals. Don't be afraid to tell the individuals where else you have applied if they ask.

I would contact Captains where I would like to work via phone and set up an interview and ask them if they would like a resume sent to them. A short resume when you show up for the interview to leave with them is a good touch.

Follow-ups are essential, either phone or in person. It shows you still have interest in the position. If you do accept a job offer, courtesy call the other folks you interviewed with and let them know.

My 2 cents..........

Killer
2/21 Dear RH:

Just curious what years you worked on the Mt.Hood. I myself am a employee of MHNF and believe they put on a wonderful S-212 class and refresher. I believe they go out of their way in responsibly grading new saw operators. I also believe just because you are not a professional timber faller there is no reason that you can't become a C faller. I have seen some great C fallers with only 8 or 9 years of experience, and on the other hand have seen fallers with many many years be some of the scariest to be around. Well just had to drop my two cents.

R6FF
2/21 Dear MTMOG:

I agree with you on the fact that a wildfire is no place to
card a person with falling skills as they will never acquire the skills that
an old faller who fell thousands and thousands of big trees over 30-40 years
to get the degree of experience. An old timer once in Hells Canyon told me
that a tree would barberchair as it was so brittle inside with the lean and
sure enough it did for the other younger faller. It was lucky that he got
clear. However, cutting trees out of the road can be pretty difficult. I
spent two years on the road crew on Mt. Hood and spent two months each
spring bucking up old growth Douglas Firs with a grader assisting me and
with two Stihl 064 saws and wore those chains out every day. I never
sharpened and refueled so much in my life.

Its all good, RH!
2/21 Good Morning All,

"Your application for the position of Forestry Technician (hotshot/handcrew),
GS-0462-04 at Nationwide has been evaluated. You were found to be eligible for
the position and your name was referred to the selecting official. If interviews
are conducted or additional information is needed, the selecting official or
someone from the Human Resources office will contact you."

Ok so I got an email with this inside today. I like what it says, but now my question is how can I increase my chances of getting an interview? Should I mail my resume out to stations I'm interested in? Go in person? What should I say or ask? I really want to get hired this season, I've been checking for jobs since like end of November and I've applied to BLM, NPS, and USFS. I just feel this is the career for me and I need to get started on it to show what I can bring to the table. Thanks guys, I'd really appreciate the help.

Jason
2/20 Hey Ab,

I have really been keeping up with "they said" since the Cramer report
came out. I noticed earlier alot of talk about the excessive
redactions but hadn't noticed any talk lately. I originally download
the report the first week it was out and was very upset with the
liberal use of white-out. Today I downloaded it again at a different
computer and noticed they have updated the text. There is much
less "white-space" and the only thing they have taken out in this new
posting is the names. It makes it much more readable. I didn't notice
anyone talking about it on the page, and apparently the USFS hasn't
made note of it either. Unfortunately the new copy is all black and
white and hard to see detail in the pictures. It looks more like a
copy machine piece. You really need both copies to get the full
effect. Anyway I just thought you and your readers would like to know.

Sign me:
-Idaho groundpounder

Thanks Idaho groundpounder. Here's the link again: www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/investigations/cramer/index.html. To see all the comments posted on the Cramer, go to the theysaid archives January 04. They start on 1/12.

Hint for finding all the posts on it: Simultaneously hit your control and F buttons; enter "Cramer" in the search space and check the "search backwards" box. You will then be able to follow the discussion resulting from the Cramer Fire Report.

Thanks to the powers that be for making a more readable version available. Ab.
2/20 For those going to the Division Chiefs Mtg on March 2, be sure you
VOTE ABSENTEE in the CA Primary. Tuesday Feb 24 is the deadline
in CA for requesting an Absentee Ballot by mail. Do it!

Mellie
2/20 Re: Rodeo publication and display

Beth: do you have access to documentation from the fire? I was semi-attached to the first team that came in when the fire went to separate zones, and I know a good number of photos were taken. I may have a few stored electronically; I'd have to sort through various files. Do you have a way I could contact you directly?

Still out there as an AD

Let me know: I can pass messages on so you can communicate directly. Ab.
2/20 Does anyone know for sure about the chainsaw requirements for
CDF, a WILDLAND Agency??? Who else is at risk because of
the lack of training, if that is the case?

SoCal Cooperator
2/20 -AXE,

The story of how district rangers recruited firefighters in days past is
worth re-telling. It explains why line officers have oversight of today's
fire program. It doesn't mean it ought to remain that way - it just tells
how the fire organization got started.

It's worth re-telling this story because what are now respected
"professions" in law and medicine have similar backgrounds - a century ago a
person didn't need a degree to be a doctor or a lawyer, they just hung a
sign on their door. As firefighters, we happen to have got a later start in
bringing respectability to our jobs. This makes it relevant to the effort
at a special classification series and debates about 310-1 and 5109.17.

And lastly it's worth re-telling because it relates to other issues we still
face in today's fire service, like firefighter arson. I have been told - I
have no evidence to back this up - that wildfire arson dropped dramatically
with the hiring of regular crews and the end of the tavern-recruitment
practice.

Other than that, I'm just a captain with a volunteer fire department.

vfd cap'n
2/20 After more research... on chainsaw training. MTMOG as an ex FS FF, I agree completely with you. Read on about basic chainsaw training or lack of it.

I saw this *apparent* requirement in the official CDF department policy manual, but then I heard it was a "mistake" that was left there in 2002. Is this ass-covering or what? Say someone without the training gets hurt or dies, can CDF Management now say, well, they should have been following these regulations? even tho the regulations are bogus, in that there are no regulations at all?

AL

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
CHAIN SAW OPERATIONS 7013.3
(Limbing, Brushing, Bucking, & Felling)
(October 2002)

CDF personnel may be called upon to limb, buck, or brush and fell
trees while assigned to emergency incidents. As this is hazardous
work, the following items shall be considered before felling trees.
Remember; don't be afraid to say "No!" if you are uncomfortable with
the cutting assignment.

  • No CDF personnel (including inmates and wards) shall operate a
    chain saw unless they have completed or are enrolled in the CDF
    approved chain saw course (NWCG S-212) except in case of
    emergency where life is immediately threatened.
  • Chain saw operators in training may operate chain saws under
    direction of a certified chain saw operator.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
2/20 The classification games continue.
After pushing hard for the GS-401 series for professional fire management, the BLM is hiring the below position as a GS-12 Supervisory Range Technician (National Interagency Fire Coordinator).

Obviously, they found that there were very few fire managers who could qualify for this position at the GS-401-12 classification. Unfortunately, they have also been finding that filling GS-401 jobs at the GS-9, GS-10, and GS-11 grades also aren't bringing in the qualified fire managers.

As the Forest Service plugs away headstrong towards the GS-401 series for fire managers, I hope they take a look at the successes and failures of the USDI agencies who were first to jump on-board.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Vacancy Announcement Number: BLM/FA-04-35-MP
Opening Date: Friday, February 20, 2004
Closing Date: Monday, March 22, 2004
Position: Supv. Range Technician
Series & Grade: GS-0455-12/
Promotion Potential: 12

Serves as the National Interagency Fire Coordinator for the National Interagency Coordination Center (NICC). Plans, organizes, and coordinates total mobilization of nationwide fire and emergency response resources. Assumes all duties of the NICC manager in his/her absence. Responsible for NICC office policy and technical guidance of the operational systems. Evaluates adequacy and effectiveness of NICC operational systems through periodic reviews. Exercises full supervisory responsibilities of the NICC staff, including developing positions descriptions, evaluating performance and developing training plans. Responsible for development, implementation and monitoring of the NICC budget, including developing and coordinating the request for interagency funding. Monitors fire danger and severity indexes. Interprets weather forecasts and indexes in determining appropriate responses to national situations. Recommends priorities and allocation of critical national resources. As the first level decision maker regardless of agencies involved, coordinates the allocation and mobilization of national resources with the Geographic Area Coordinators. Provides counsel and direction as appropriate. Responsible for the preparation of the National Interagency Mobilization Guide.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Lobotomy
2/20 AL,

In my opinion, CDF is liable, and especially in the area of chain saw use. OSHA has specific requirements that no one may use a chain saw without training. In general, OSHA regs regarding safety require an employer to provide general training in any equipment or PPE that the employee will have to use.

Currently there is no CDF requirement for chain saw use.

SoCal CDF
2/20 There are two memorials for First Strike. One is at the crash site on us hwy 20 about 18 miles west of Vail, Ore.and the other is at First Strike corporate office at 204 Quarry Rd., off of Diamond Lake Blvd. Roseburg, Ore. Yesterday's news review had a picture of the road side memorial, as well as part of the one at First Strike.

Coyote

We have pictures of the Roadside Memorial from Kathy and FirenWater, but looks like we didn't get them listed on the Memorials and Monument Page. I'll have to track them down and list the two sites under Oregon. Ab.
2/20 Hi Folks,

We just returned from the annual National Wildfire Suppression Association meeting in Reno, NV. I think the meeting was a huge success. Lots of good information was dispersed, a wide range of subjects were covered by some very knowledgeable speakers and the Board put forward a great event.

The one thing that really got my attention was the out-pouring of generosity at the fund raiser auction for the Wildland Firefighter Memorial Foundation. Members of the NWSA raised over $25,000! The next time that I hear some neighbob of negatism complain that the contract firefighter is in it only for the money, all we need do is point out acts like this. The NWSA has raised the level of professionalism, training and acceptability of the vendor community. Many thanks to Rick Dice, Debbie Milley, Mike Wheelock, Bruce Fergusson and the many others who donate their time and money to make the NWSA what it is.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation has done great work. They not only lend support to contract personnel but to all firefighters (Federal, State and all others) and their families in times of tragedy. I would encourage all firefighters to reach deep into their pockets and give to this Foundation. Vicky Miner's leadership of this Foundation is all volunteer and she has done a great service to the fire service, thanks Vicky!

An interesting side note: the meeting was not only attended by the private sector but was also attended by several State and Federal firefighters as well. Additionally, several retired BLM and USFS personnel were also in attendance and some are now Board members.

Everyone stay safe,
Rock of Wood's Fire and Emergency Services, Inc.

Links to both of those organizations are on our Classifieds page. Nothing like networking. Ab.
2/20 Hi Al,

Taking S-212 may qualify you to operate a chainsaw - it doesn't make you a faller. I've been operating a saw for over twenty years and still wouldn't consider myself a C faller since I just don't fall that many hazard trees. Cutting a downed tree off the road to get your engine through is one thing, falling timber takes experience, and personally I don't think that an active wildfire is the time or place give it a try or "happen into" a fallers position....Just my personal opinion....

MTMOG
2/19 Has any one heard that the Forest Service in R5 maybe going to a all risk fire
department in the future? And what are your thoughts about the FS going to
all risk. Is it good or bad?

Maverik