"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
March, 2004
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3/31 JL,

I'm the guy you're referring to. I'm writing this sitting in a hotel room
near McClellan, and my ICT3 sim is tomorrow morning. I just got my ticket
punched for ICT3 in January, and have not done this on a fire except as a
trainee. Tomorrow will tell, I guess! I FEEL ready, have done my studying and
all, and I've been DIVS for a few years now, so I'm not stressing that much,
BUT, as you know, there's stuff on the line here, like my higher quals. I heard
some Forests are boycotting the whole sim idea, and letting them take away the
qual. I'm going to try it at least! I'll post tomorrow night and tell folks if I
passed or not!!

-MJ

Good luck or have fun as the case may be. Ab.
3/31 Thanks TC with your help regarding proper classification.

The link you provided explained some of the answers that I was after. Something else confused me though and it made me gain some new questions:

From the link you provided...

"The GS-340 Program Management Series includes positions that manage or direct, or assist in a line capacity in the managing or directing, one or more programs, including appropriate supporting service organizations. The paramount qualification requirements of these positions are management and executive knowledge and ability and the positions do not require competence in a specialized subject-matter or functional area. Positions in which specialized subject matter or functional competence is a necessary qualification requirement are classifiable in the appropriate specialized or general series."

..... "As there are no prescribed titles for positions in this series, the agency may construct a title using the instructions contained in the Introduction to Position Classification Standards."

TC, I would still like to see the actual classification standard and the requirements that are in it. I can't find them anywhere.

I'm trying to find out why this series doesn't change over to the 0401 series, since 0401 seems to be the new "fix all". Also, why doesn't my fire management degree meet the requirements, since it says the core competencies are "management" and that competency in a specialized subject matter or functional area is not required?

P.S. - Obviously I don't need to be an english major based upon the quotes from the link you provided. I also am not an english major just for the record... I'm sure you can tell.

Confused in the Forest

3/31 I just went through the IC3 simulation (CA).

There are a few problems with the program that still need to be worked out, (it froze up during my simulation) but it was good. I feel it will be a very useful tool. For getting the mind ready for the season to come. And also for someone who has just finished their task-book. During that period of time that they are going through their task-book, they have had someone looking over their shoulder, providing bits of info to help them learn the position. Now turn them lose on the simulation and let's truly see if they learned what they were taught. They won't have that second head sitting with them feeding little bits here and there to help remind them what is needed to be done; its now all on them. If they are not able to pass, then more time with the task-book and a trainer. This way we are not setting up someone to fail. We are giving them an opportunity to see where they may need to improve.

JL
3/31 i am looking for any info for the gonzo gear pack. they're made in dolores co.
need to find an address or a phone number.
i've looked all over the internet for an address or any info on them i cant find a web site.
thank you for any info that any body can offer.

Forestfire25

Ab will forward any information along.
3/31 The rumor about the IC on the Cramer is completely false. There is no
civil suit. And it is the Department of Justice, not the FS that makes
decisions on defending employees.

The OIG investigation is ongoing. The Administrative review relating to
any personnel action decisions is ongoing.

Rumors can be very harmful things and should be treated with caution.

Thanks - Rose

Rose Davis
Public Affairs Specialist
USDA Forest Service
Fire & Aviation Management

Thanks for the clarification, Rose. Ab.
3/31 AZTrailblazer:

Good the hear from you, too. Sounds like your neck of the woods is having some fun. You didn’t p*ss me off…my reaction was as much based on bemusement at the idea that we “let” people do anything…it’s like the old story about holding onto the tiger’s tail. You aren’t “letting” the tiger run away with you, but you sure as h*ll ain’t gonna let go neither. You say you can’t believe that fire or DEQ let the burn happen in the first place. In my experience, if we expressly tell people they can’t burn, what usually happens is that they try to hide from us, either by burning at night (which usually isn’t as major a problem) or in the case of one guy, hauling his slash pile into the woods so that the overhanging branches would hide the smoke!

(smiling) I didn’t attribute any disrespect to tradition (farming or tribal) to your post, but feel free to attribute it to mine; I’m an uppity young whipper-snapper, and this time last year was a lesson in the willingness of people to be really, really stupid in the name of “we’ve always done it this way”. We burn this coming weekend; 80+ temperatures and 20 mph winds in some places. I just really, really hope we can get “please burn another time” past “my daddy burned the first weekend in April, and his daddy, and his daddy…”

Nerd on the Fireline
3/31 I am looking for any pictures of Tonto Helitack's B 407, helicopter 323 from Region 3.
Any help would be much appreciated.

TNF
3/31 Ab

As far as I know there is not a civil suit against <the ICT3>. Neither the Allen's nor ourselves
have filed anything. We have to wait until the last report is done by the General Justice to see if
they will file criminal charges.

JH
3/31 What a difference a year makes. This time last year we were digging out from a five foot snowstorm. This year we just had the driest March since 1911. We are all hoping to get the moisture they are predicating for this weekend. In the mean time the following is a press release for a slash burn gone bad in our neck of the woods. It started at noonish yesterday, the report below is from this morning.

The following information update has been made for: Picnic Rock Fire

This morning the Picnic Rock Fire stands at approximately 500 acres. Eight homes have had a precautionary evacuation with an additional 12 on standby. Currently, we do not have a shelter established for these displaced persons. That may change as the day progresses. Much depends on the winds today and fire behavior to determine if additional evacuations will be warranted.
There are 40 firefighters on the line with an additional (4) 20 person crews ordered as well as a Type II Overhead Team for fire management. We also have two helicopters committed for today as well as two Air Tankers for retardant drops. The latter are coming out of Grey Bull, Wyoming and North Carolina. This is obviously very early to need air support like that and the North Carolina ship is apparently the only one available for duty other than the Wyoming air tanker. We also have called for an airspace closure in the vicinity of the fire. Pilots should check with the FAA in order to appropriately conform to the restrictions. County Road 29C is closed in the vicinity of the fire but Highway 14 remains open. There is no current information on percentage of fire perimeter enclosed with fireline nor any estimate of overall containment. Additional information when it becomes available.

For additional emergency information, see www.larimer.org/emergency/

Take care out there - and do your rain/snow dance.
Adios, CJD
3/31 Just a few words from Ab regarding the ICT3 certification process and rumors:

From what I have seen of the ICT3 certification process in R5, it's a good process, although pressed for time. I do not have first hand experience in other regions.

You have to remember that we no longer have new people coming up through fuel treatments - at least not many. We no longer have new people gaining important decision making experience with a spring and fall burning season in addition to the summer fire season. The fuel conditions 20 years later are phenomenally worse than when we did have a viable fuel treatment program. Being adept at decision making is critical.

Is the implementation of the ICT3 cert process much like implementation of the WCT? We groused about that at the beginning and, in my opinion, it has saved lives on the fireline. Maybe we need to let the system work in this certification process as well. If someone in the ICT3 position is not comfortable making decisions then maybe they shouldn't be in that position. From what I have seen of the cert process in R5, it is set up to be a win-win situation. However, having said that, I do see other problems inherent in the issues that are brought up in GW's post.

Regarding the rumors of civil suit. At this point, they're just rumors. I understand that fire managers are on edge and do not feel supported. That's an understatement and it's not just ICT3s. However, rumors can undermine morale and affect the trainers. Until the OSHA Report and the OIG Investigation (Office of Inspector General) come out, nothing can be decided from a legal perspective. The OSHA Report is in the process of being released and I've heard that the FS may have a news release out on that tomorrow.

Take a deep breath all. Keep training. Stay tuned.

Ab.

3/31 Ab,

I've heard of a rumor that could have a serious impact on our fire program this year. The rumor is that the IC on the Cramer fire is facing a civil suit and the FS is choosing not to defend him. Some TypeIII ICs discussing this are seriously considering giving up their qualifications so as to not be exposed to the personal liability.

Does anyone know the truth or falsity of this rumor? It should be broadcast one way or the other so these ICs can get on with training and certs. If a number of TypeIII ICs do not re-certify, where are we going to be?

BDB

3/31 Ab. This email is making its way behind the scenes, sent out by one type3 IC who is not going to maintain their cert. Such concerns should be considered by all affected. GW

Reasons for me to drop Type III IC Qualification:

  1. Family, age and abilities.
  2. Concern over Forest and Oregon Board of Forestry commitment to promptly replacing Type III IC's on fires when they go to II or even I. We are clear that a Type V will not command a Type IV fire. With the burnover fatality events occurring at the Type III becoming II level, of course we need to apply that same appropriate governor there.
  3. Concern over multi-agency variances on ICT3 standards; FS doing pass or fail recertification, BLM staying as is, State with lesser experience levels.
  4. Belief that Type III IC is the toughest job in Wildland Fire. That Division Group Supervisor should be a pre-requisite for ICT III and not the reverse. ICT III having to do essentially the same job as a Div Sup without the support of a team. That Division Sup must be a prerequisite for Type III is easily provable. It is common for Type III IC's to designate Division Supervisors, {both in name and job complexity}, under them. Type II Operations Chief appears to be the current lowest level qualification that is capable of managing a Type III Incident that goes to a level utilizing Division Supervisors.
  5. USFS need to have 401 series leadership, that I regrettably cannot provide, in critical IC roles. {South Canyon in 1994 identified having a clear need for professional series managers in the most challenging fire management positions. Although, for some reason not identified currently, surely this must include ICT III if preventing fatalities with better leaders is the intention. Again, Type III managed fires are where the burnover fatalities are occurring.}
  6. Lack of FMO positions on Forest; both FMO's were gone when B&B went. For whatever reason, aerial detection flights were discontinued for the 4 flights prior to Bear & Booth escaping and a prompt transition was not made to the Type I team. Cramer fire showing that we must have FMO's in place during high risk periods. Lack of managerial support will hurt Type III fires the most.
  7. Believe in training in spring, not summer. Most contractors simply not ready.
  8. Fear of getting shanghaied by Type I Teams even though "3 day I.A." completed.
3/31 Hey Nerd,

Good hearing from you. Sorry to have p*ssed you off in my post. What I was trying to get across is that, I couldn't believe that the fire department or DEQ (department of environmental quality) approved the burn in the first place. With the current large fire happenings, and the type of weather we have been having (and yes, I know where you live) common sense should have prevailed yesterday. No disrespect intended towards farmers or tribal influences.......(and yes, you do know where I work as well. [BIA])

AZ Trailblazer
3/31 does anyone know what kind of shelters are going to be in the management teams fire cache? old or new

Sup11
3/31 AZTrailblazer:

You said: “Citrus fire,...............ag burn go wrong in Gila Bend (humm, lets see, hot, dry single digit rh's, 25 mph sustained winds, and the locals are letting farmers burn their fields?!?!?!? What the H%^& is going on here?”

“And the locals are letting farmers burn their fields”?!?! My friend, being one of the ‘locals’, though not of Gila Bend, I’d like to say that “letting” isn’t always the operative term. In my district, the fields and the acequias have gotten burned the second weekend after the spring equinox for four hundred years. Last spring, trying to keep this supervised by fire personnel, let alone under control, wound up with two fist fights, one drawn firearm, and three law enforcement interventions. This spring, we got told by our local politicos that we shouldn’t even be there, because “If the fire department is there, and something gets away, we’re liable. If you’re not there, we aren’t liable. Wait until you actually get a 911 call.” What? We’re supposed to wait until it’s already gotten out of hand before we even start rolling? The great Southwestern mantra of “whiskey’s for drinking and water’s for fighting” holds good…if you try to stick your nose in ditch politics, which trying to prevent some of these burns counts as, you’re playing with fire (pun intended). We’ve got six engines, and last spring we all of them out on separate assignments shutting down unpermitted burns. We only had two law enforcement officers at that time, and nobody wanted to go out without ‘em.

One thing that I’ve never seen discussed in relation to WUI tactics is the cultural and less conventionally political ramifications of trying to keep people out of high-risk situations. It’s really hard to tell people that even though they’ve been doing something for generation after generation, like burning acequias or roasting chicos or collecting firewood, that they can’t do it because the winds are too high or that it’s too dry. Around here, you’ll have a fight on your hands if you try.

Nerd on the Fireline
3/31 The 0340 is a program management series.......... From the OPM site, so a
search on 0340. Here's a link to just one of 169 hits I got on that
series.

www.opm.gov/classapp/decision/1997/03401401.pdf (pdf file)

TC
3/31 Ab,

We've added about a dozen new pages to the Colorado Firecamp website, related to the use of contractors in wildland fire. In September 2003, NWCG released a series of memos and other documents "to promote safety and help standardize use of contractor resources." Included is information on training and quals, standard contract provisions and incident behavior. NWCG also released a sample MOU for training providers, similar to the MOU we have with RMCG, region 2.

Here's the starting page for the NWCG contract resource package. This information should be of benefit to both contractor and agency folks alike as we gear up for the 2004 season.

vfd cap'n
3/31 Regarding the Upper Santa Ana Burn, (BDF)

The next time BDF holds a public meeting in Big Bear it should be at either Chad's or that dump in Sugarloaf.

That way the drunks don't have to get out on the road and become a hazard to the motoring public!.

Signed, Smokey's Friend
3/31 I need some help with finding some things.... another classification question... sorry...

The Cleveland National Forest has an outreach for a GS-0340-14 Forest Supervisor and Sequoia National Forest has an outreach for a GS-0340-13 District Ranger.

The OPM site www.opm.gov/fedclass/html/gsseries.asp#0300 and all of my usual sources have no mention of this series. Actually, I can't find any reference to it except for Forest Supervisors and District Rangers.

Did the Forest Service gain a new series that isn't posted anywhere else? Is it an old series that was done away with like the old 0456 series but still used for classification? Or is it just an OPM oversight? Or an Agency Typo?

Bill Terry told us that the 0401 series was the "wave of the future" and would allow us educated Forestry Technicians to promote into management within the Forest Service.

I never wanted to head to the Regional Office or the WO, but the 0401 series seemed like it was the "fix all" as presented by the WO guy. I wanted to be a DR and then a Forest Supervisor and think that may not be possible now if management positions are going to be filled using so many different series.

Thanks for your replies in advance,

Confused in the Forest
3/31 OK Gang,

Let's get ready to ruuummmmmble!!!!

2 large fire in AZ in less than 24 hours. Webber Fire up to 1800 acres and will increase with additional burn out.

Citrus fire,...............ag burn go wrong in Gila Bend (humm, lets see, hot, dry single digit rh's, 25 mph sustained winds, and the locals are letting farmers burn their fields?!?!?!? What the H%^& is going on here?

The Colorado River area is primed and ready! No Burn jobs in RRU for past couple of days.

Between working CDF and training PHX BIA refreshers (no available t-2 crews available from PHX until the remaining refreshers are done), No days off!

Time to hydrate!

AZ Trailblazer
3/30 Along with the Rats Thread..................

Back in the 70's into the early 80's we use to store the unused peanut butter, jelly, and (very few of these) cheese cans that were leftover from C-Rat boxes in our Fire Cache. C-Rats were great by the way. Most of us saved and still have many P-38's. I cannot remember ever being hungry on a lengthy coyote assignment. Green eggs and ham!

The aforementioned PB, J, and (few) cheese cans were roughly the size and shape of a hockey puck. During the off-seasons we would (during lunch only, of course) play a game behind the firehouse called "Roller Pucky". The premise was simple. Put the pucky between two pylons a hundred feet away on the asphalt parking lot behind the firehouse.

One soon learned that PB, J, and (few, but they were the best) cheese cans all rolled, yes rolled, differently. One learned quickly to save the cheese cans.

Now, can anybody guess where this was? Hint: some of the earliest Arrowhead Hotshots may remember.

NMAirBear
3/30 The report that RDF was asking about might be this NIMO draft:

www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/swamgmt/admin/swcg/swcg_documents/swcg_reports_documents.htm

|chica|
3/30 Santa Cruz County Fire (Arizona) is looking for an Engine Boss in Region 3, with at least 2 years wildland experience as an Engine Boss, to Captain their new type 5/6 CAFS engine in 2004. For more details and contact info, check the Jobs page. Ab.
3/30 Re Line Gear:

I was wearing some horrible line gear pinching my shoulder blades awful on
the Sadler Complex near Elko, NV and a crewmember told me about Top Stitch
in Redding, Ca. I called up and told them my problem.

I was going back to Lava Beds and a topstitch rep met me in Redding that night.
As he was ex FS fire, he gave me a 30 dollar discount.

Quite comfortable.

RH!

RH, I just called the number you provided and talked with Rich at Top Stitch. They are in the process of rebuilding their website. It should be ready in 2-3 weeks. We're happy to provide specific contact info on theysaid for companies that advertise with us either with a Classifieds link or with a banner. Top Stitch is not yet on that Classifieds links list, but may be soon. Anyone wants their phone number, let me know. Ab.

3/30 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 are updated. Asst. Hotshot Superintendent for Logan IHC is on the street. Announcement

Firestormers Wildfire Suppression contractor update: they now have a position they need filled for a full time engine captain. See the Jobs page for info and contact.

Ab.
3/30 please find attached two pictures from South Africa.
"Working on Fire" Hotshot Crews.

best
Alex

Thanks Alex. I put them on the Handcrews13 photo page.
Also put up a photo of the Mat Su Crew, 2003, Alaska sent in by Cal.
Thanks contributors.

To date we have crews from six of the seven continents. We have North and South America, Europe, Asia (Siberia), Australia/New Zealand and now Africa. Wow, all we're missing is a crew from Antarctica. Readers, email your friends down there and ask them to send in a photo!

While I'm patting us on the back, Original Ab pointed out yesterday that there are now about 100 photo pages of 20 photos each or 2000 wildland fire photos in the wildlandfire.com photo library. It's no wonder that we get multiple emails a day asking permission to use them for non-commercial purposes, and some every once in a while that request commercial use as well. In that case, we put requestors in touch with photographers.

Nice job, community! It's great to see the photos in powerpoints around the US. Ab.

3/30 Apache-

There are many other quality packs other than Eagle Gear to choose from.
Our IHC uses Gear 911's Mountain Rest Pack. It's only $99 and has held up well for us over the last two seasons. The crewmembers (especially the sawyers) seem to like the storage space and the non-sliding H-harness (they call it a "Yoke" harness). However, if you don't plan on doing a lot of spiking, that model may be too big for you.

Start calling gear manufacturers- a lot of companies will let you demo their pack before purchasing it. The new GSA pack looks promising also- it looks like it's designed after the Missoula Jumpers' pack. Has anybody used it yet- if so, what did you think?

-BoonZF
3/30 FS Web

Couldn't get any of the fs.fed.us sites to come up an hour ago, but they seem to be working now.
If we had this kind of FS web failure like yesterday's during the height of fire season, we'd
be up S*it Creek without a paddle.

It would make sense to have a redundant system for fire,

Tahoe Terrie
3/30 Apache:

I’m on my second season with an Eagle Gear pack…I’ve got a few quibbles with it (back,
double-back, and SAFETY PIN that main vertical strap in back), but overall I’ve been pretty
impressed with it. Not sure I’d call it the absolute best out there, but I haven’t seen one I like
better.

Nerd on the Fireline
3/30 A question was asked about 0081 relating to wildland which is why I posted the links I did but there seems to be some misunderstanding in a few areas.

The pay 0081 FF get is 100% based on the hours worked, in fact my hourly rate is less than a 40 hour employees, I get paid the same as the 40 hour employee for my first 53 hours (so I make about 80% the hourly wage) the remaining 19 hours I make time and 1/2 of this reduced hourly rate. I get no differentials, no hazard pay, no holiday pay, no night pay and in place of these differentials I get... nothing. Thats right they took all of these pay differentials in lieu of getting paid for all the hours I am at work (must have made sense to someone). It is true under the old system we got a differential in place of all of these, but that is no longer true.

The grading of the 0081 series is being changed to reflect more of what we do, this will raise our grades in many cases since many bases require EMT, hazmat etc, many FF will be seeing 1 or 2 grade increases.

It is true that there is currently no mention of Wildland fire but that seems to be less of an issue to add the wording to the 0081 series rather than trying to create an entirely new series, I know a lot of 0081s who respond to more than 50% wildland, using the wildland agencies logic the firefighters at these bases should be 0462s. I was an EMT, did medicals, vehicle accidents, car fires, lost hikers, aircraft standby etc in addition to wildland fire when I was at the USFS.

I agree with MOC4546 on the idea of a combined fire protection agency, let the other agencies have their fire protection managed by professionals instead of various base commanders, forest supervisors etc who may not have any clue what Fire protection is about and have a tendency to spend fire money on their own pet projects. Fire money needs to be spent on fire issues, not rec trails for the base or new furnishings at the Forest SO.

I also agree that one of the biggest problems the wildland firefighters face is themselves, I don't know how many times I heard people talking about CDF wannabes referring to those who want support for the non wildland responses. Change is not easy and it is even harder when it is us vs them (WO, RO) and also them (FF who don't want to work year round or respond to non wildland incidents). I am now equipped with top of the line SCBA, structural turnouts and training when I go to a car fire, at the USFS I never had structure pants, I had the cheapest nomex jacket Galls carried and only part of the crew had SCBA, the only training the crew got was what I gave them, my training came from my volunteer department. Some of the engines I worked around had no training because their captains didn't have any and didn't want any. Part of being professional is having the knowledge and willingness to do all of your job not just the parts you like.

Although I am currently DoD I am ex USFS and consider all Federal paid firefighters to be Federal Fire regardless of series or agency. In fact the DoD has not been able to replace my USFS green blood even though they have bought my services for the time being. Like many it was simple economics and recognition of the job I actually do, not the job some administrator thinks I should (or shouldn't do). If the wildland firefighters ever get properly classified I will be the first one in line to get back on a Green engine. In the mean time, anytime I can offer my support I will.

Fedfire
3/30 NIMO Report

Do you know where to get a copy of the report that talks about how many
folks are retiring and that there won't be anyone to staff the Incident
Management Teams?

RDF

People in R5 who are retiring listed their names on large sheets of paper on the wall at the Division Chiefs Mtg. Ab.

3/30 MOC4546, thanks for your reply.

I appreciate your honesty and your professionalism. I am always open to discuss the issues head first and answer questions from anyone who is interested.

Lobotomy talked to you last night on chat and I was watching. As he said, I think we're all on the same page. We just express our views differently. You have a very important view from the outside that is appreciated more than you even know.

Your posts are informative and sometimes provocative to some of the wildland folks. I'm probably just the opposite of you.... a wildland guy who had two years (actually 19 months) DoD, 21 years FED and over 15 years VFD service in between. Some of my posts are provocative to the DoD folks and local government (Never intended to be). Maybe we are each others "alter ego's".

Anyway, never take anything said here as personal.... It's just an information exchange... It's just personal views and how we see things around us.

I'd be happy to talk with you in person... Ab, can you e-mail MOC4546 my addy....

Rogue Rivers
3/30 Look at this and you will get a new perspective on All Risk Management.
Especially when you see the Fire Engines and Helicopters.

www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/

DF
3/30 old fire guy- on mre's etc.

time: July 1977
place: Truckee R.D.- 27 fire lightning bust between Truckee and Sierraville
saws: homelite XL's were blue or green, falling saws were gear drive Mclucks, 28lb powerheads...
we were given some boxed "K" rats out of the Truckee "rat room" to last for three days, excellent chief boy-yard-dee spaghetti, dolly madison pound cake, (not bad if ya poured the pineapple juice on it, warm preferred) and camel cigs (3 to a box with 3 gold stripes on each). when we got back i called the local distributor (Reno) and asked when the last time camels were made unfiltered w/3gold stripes. he said he'd have to call back, after 2 hours he did (after checking with a regional old guy) and said they were Korean war vintage- probably 1952... no one admitted to any ill effects...

stihl pullin'
3/30 Apache,

There is a lot of good web gear out there, it really just comes down to personal needs and design choice. If you will need to remove your day pack often, like on an Engine crew does to carry hose, then a pack like the True North Firefly pack would be good. If you are on a handcrew, and leave the day pack part on all of the time, then Eagle Gear or Nimrod would be a good choice. You need to think about need. Do you need to carry lots of gear, or just enough for Initial Attack? Do you need to carry a hydration system or canteens? Dp you need to carry many fussees or just a few? All of these come into play when selecting web gear. Some brands that are popular are also Pack Shack and Thielsen. Check some of these brands out by internet before you buy, with your use in mind, and remember, make sure the gear you buy will fit the new fire shelters, some companies are trying to sell off old gear on the shelf.

-MJ

Please take a look at the gear available through our Classifieds page. The folks who have ads up there are part of this community and help support this website. Ab.
3/29 [censored] good chat last night..... I think it might be the most I've seen in many
months.... Went to a second page of chatters for a while.

Maybe we should schedule another one after the "ladies" chat.

Great to see all of the readers and posters there... and the newbies...... Thanks Ab for a great chat night.

Lobotomy

It was so busy that I couldn't get on -- tried twice. I think that's a first. Ab.
3/29 hey guys,

First big wildfire of the season for the SOUTHWEST (R3) is raging right now at 600+ acres on the TONTO NATIONAL FOREST just outside of Pine, AZ.

dont know if any shot crews are staffed and ready for an assignment for R3, i know Fort Apache Agency sent two TYPE II crews and they are the only crews on that fire.

the fire is called....WEBBER FIRE

APACHE
3/29 Ab, I opened an MRE from the early 80's the other day. The TP, matches and spoon seemed t
o be OK to use. I also found a "brick" labeled "fruit and cereal bar" don't have any idea how
it is supposed to be consumed (or used). The main course is freeze dried so it most likely will
last forever -- I am saving it for an emergency.

WP
3/29 MREs

I found M&Ms from the 88 Olympics in 1998. I keep one around that was manufactured in
1985 to show the rookies in 130/190 what they'll be eatin in fire camp. ;)

EMT_MB
3/29 The Redding IHC Reunion is not this year; our 40th Reunion will take place
in January of 2007. The exact date, time, and location has not yet been set.

The crew's first year was 1967, and in 2004 we will hire our 645th full
crewmember; nobody knows how many fill-ins we've had over the years, as
most of our records burned up in the plane crash/fire at North Zone in
1981. If you'd like to see who was on the crew for a particular year and
the position they held, we have a database of crewmembers & overhead that's
online at
www.californiahotshotcrews.org/RIHC_Roster_Search_Spreadsheet_ver2003.xls.
Please let me know if you find any errors or omissions.

It's probably time for us to start collecting names and addresses of folks
who would like to attend in 2007. Please contact Keren Christensen at
(530) 226-2724 if you'd like to attend. We'll be setting up a reunion website in
the future.

My contact information is below if you have any questions.

Robert Holt
Redding IHC
6101 Airport Road
Redding, CA 96002
(530) 226-2722
3/29 Can anyone get onto any of the fs.fed.us sites from a home (non-intranet)
computer? Wonder what's up.

Tahoe Terrie

Seems the problem started sometime after the lunch hour. FS websters on the intranet didn't notice until the public started calling in. It appears to be a DNS failure in the fed.us domain. Evidently there's been fairly lengthy list of catastrophic system failures. They're working on it. Ab.

3/29 Hello,
Humphreys Team is now Whitney's team. Larry has retired.

New link is www.fireteam-sw.com/whitney/

Thanks!

Eric N

Thanks Eric, I'll be revising the team and the links page soon. Please send any changes. Congrats to Larry. Ab.
3/29 Does anyone know how CDF weighs the oral interview compared with experience?
I had an interview at BDU and it had to be no longer than 7 minutes, so I speculating that it is not weighed as heavily as training and experience.
Do any CDF folks know how long I have to wait before I hear back, I'd love to get a time frame.?

sign me
Readytogo
3/29 are EAGLE GEARS daypacks the best out there??. I want to get a new
daypack but there are too many too choose from. I prefer the low ones
that are around your hips.

any help please,

APACHE
3/29 Thanks Tom and Domaque.

Doug
3/29 Doug, a search of Topozone.com shows Cramer Creek in the Butts Creek Point
Quad in Lemhi County.

Tom
3/29 In answer to Doug's post, I think the Cramer fire was in Lemhi County and
was in the Long Tom quad map. Find long Tom Lookout and that should get
you close to the Cramer Fire.

Domaque.
3/29 Rogue Rivers,

I'm sorry if you feel that my reply regarding the GS-081 Fire Protection Series was a put down of wildland firefighters, but it is NOT!

I was a federal wildland firefighter for nine seasons before going to Department of Defense. I was answering questions that were being asked regarding the series, the pay scale, and other questions. Nothing more, and nothing less.

You are correct, federal firefighters are federal firefighters, regardless of the series. And I firmly believe that. Wildland firefighters have not gotten the pay for the hours and level of work they do. I answered Backburnfs and Fedfire replies regarding the 081 classification. A big step is happening with the good legislation being guided by the FWFSA and Casey Judd. I can't count the times I was jealous that I was putting in the same hours and work that my CDF counterparts were doing on a fire, yet they stayed in hotels and had benefits and I and my fellow Federal firefighters did not.

THERE IS NO INTENT ON STEERING ANYONE WRONG!! A QUESTION WAS POSTED AND I ANSWERED IT, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS ALLOWED TO ON THIS BOARD!!

As far as support from the IAFF, the only true and real support federal structural firefighters get is when it is politically expedient for the IAFF to support our federal interests. DOD and other agency GS-081 firefighters are constantly at the front of the chopping block when that dirty word called "Contracting Out" comes up at budget time. The Fire Departments on the Fed system are always the first to try to be cut. IAFF does not give federal firefighters the support you think. If you don't believe me, ask Casey Judd. He fought those battles for a lot of years. Contrary to popular belief, the IAFF does not give a lot of support to federal structural firefighters.

IAFF did not support federal firefighter with the broken promises of the Clinton Administration until the sixth year, when the democrats lost seats in Congress, and when they did get involved with our pay issues they watered down what was supposed to be a 25% increase in 1991, and ended up being 9% in 1996.

The IAFF gives the bulk of its support to the local government fire unions because of the money that comes in from union membership dues. Its only when the IAFF feels a strong pinch do they give the same level of support to Federal Firefighters.

FWFSA left IAFF and CPF because of their lack of support for federal issues. At IAFF conferences I've been to I here "Your Federal? It sucks to be you because everything negotiated for you has to be approved by Congress and the President. You basically have no bargaining power compared to the cities and states".

My "lumping" of all the federal agencies that provide structural fire services was just because they all use the GS-081 series for the firefighter and a description of what I have seen and worked under. Not that anyone's better than anyone else.

You bet that wildland firefighters are getting screwed over on the pay issues, particularly the upper level managers who get hit with that salary cap/overtime cap crap. If you get 1000 hours of overtime on a fire, you should be paid for it, not just because in a two-week period someone made more money than the President of the United States (the highest office) and a law says you can't earn more than George W., you are entitled to the pay you earn.

The federal wildland fire service are professional agencies with professional firefighters. The best solution is to take Fire-Pro AWAY from all the agencies, unify them into a single fire service where a district manager, park superentendant, or forest supervisor who hates fire can't cut their budgets or personnel.

There is no reason why the federal fire agencies cannot model thier seasonal program based on CDF where benefits can be obtained and time in service could count toward retirement. They just won't because it will cost them money. How many people did you know who spent 10, 12, or 15 years as a seasonal then be told "Sorry, we're not going to pick you up permanent status because....." and all that time doesn't count for anything other than Social Security.

There are a lot of changes that can be made, but the biggest change to overcome is the "We just do wildland fires" attitude. Not everyone has it, but it holds a lot of good people back. The only way to fix this is to change paradigms, and old farts who won't move forward with progressive ideas. Some forests and districts get more fires than military bases, but those bases usually have very strong prevention programs. The VA may protect one building, but that building is a hospital with hundreds of our nation's veterans.

There are differences between the jobs the wildland firefighters and the structural firefighters, but we all fight wildland fires the same way. My statements were what I could share with my fellow FEDERAL firefighters on the subject of 0081 vs. 0462/0455 pay and descriptions. Not who was better.

I think you did miss something.

If you want to talk to me further about this, please have Ab send me your email.

MOC4546
3/29

Firefighters get ready!!!

The Southwest Area, particularly the southern half of NM/AZ, is very dry. Single digit RH, warm temperatures, and recent breezy to windy conditions are taking the already droughty timbered areas right back to where they were during recent drought-year fire busts. We had the first bonafide Red Flag Warning yesterday in Southern NM and there will likely be more soon.

See todays fire weather conditions at ROMAN : www.met.utah.edu

See the current drought conditions for the SW Area and the US at: http://drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
See the latest SW Area 2004 Fire Season Prognosis at: www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/swapredictiveETC.htm

We are gearing up for a busy fire season and the busy ones usually begin with April winds. Early season SW Area fires in very dry, droughty fuels are typically characterized as very fast moving (i.e faster than you can run) and very high intensity (i.e. crown fire in continuous canopy) with long range (i.e. over a mile) spotting. LCES needs to be a constant consideration with this fire behavior potential.

NMAirBear

3/29 lordy, lordy, hooked on this website yrs ago!
Just another face on the fire: did ya light up those smokes?
Lobot: you never cease to amaze me, make me THINK & frequently a good snicker! :omy!!!
RH: *L* life of MREs!
anyone wanna guess the shelf life of EGGS? ever wonder why SJ's carry SPAM and tuna? anyone wonder why ground pounders gag if anyone serves ham at home?
<grins> thanks Abs. not only do you provide a comic relief link, you provide pertinent info - again, our sincere TY

safe season to you each and every one of you!

Northzone5
3/28 Anyone up for a "chat" tonight? 8:30 to 9:00 Pacific Time?

Lobotomy

I'll try to show up. Ab.
3/28 Does anyone know the name of the quad map
where the Cramer fire was? I will need the county also.
I would like to have a solid terrain model made of the area.

Doug
3/28 MREs

In 1987 I found a can of fruit cocktail and a pack of smokes in a c-rat and
I have heard a person found a condom. Must have been from Vietnam, Korea,
or even the second world war. Cheneys Haliburton group is being denied 350
mil because of the lousy MREs being served in Iraq. Didn't Ross Perot
provide MREs for the gov. a priori?

RH!

3/28 Do you know where I can find some used equipment? I'm looking for an old
fire shelter (not the new generation shelter) that is still in pretty good shape and
a couple of shirts and pants. It is for a few guys with my volunteer fire department.

Thanks for your help,

Larry Glover

Not now, but sometimes people sometimes post used equipment on the Classifieds page. Readers, Ab will put you in touch with Larry if you like.
3/28 Old Fire Guy-

Found a soft pack of cigarettes three years ago while i was on the Star
fire. Saw the cigarettes and opted not to eat the MRE itself.

Note: MRE was not from fire camp.

Just another face on the fire
3/28 Anony"M"ous

I'm afraid that you may not get an answer to your question on the shelf
life of an MRE......because no one knows.

Modeled after the famous Twinkie, MRE's are thought to be immortal in shelf
life. The fine combination of organics and chemicals have rendered the
contents immune to any form of bacterial growth, desiccation, and most
low-yield nuclear (GW would say "nuculer") devices.

Oh, I'm sure that future generations of Starship captains may eventually
pull one out of their storage units and using Quark dating methodology
predict a final shelf date, but let's leave some of the mysteries for our
future generations.

Q: For you lurkers out there, what is the oldest or strangest item you've
found in a meal?

Old Fire Guy
3/28 Lobotomy has summed up most of my feelings about the Big Bear Thread.

But I will add this:

The media should be flogged for trying to make it a bigger deal than it was!
Promoting hysteria for the sake of ratings is what they did, in my mind that
is negligent at best.

Sign me, BB (for now)
3/28 The Wornick company (www.wornick.com) Following Their Links to

>From their Web Site (http://www.dscp.dla.mil/subs/rations/meals/mres.htm)
"The shelf life of the MRE is three (3) years at 80 degrees F. However, the shelf life can be extended through the use of cold storage facilities prior to distribution."

Hope this helps. I have to confess I have eaten MREs that have been in the corner of the station (unrefrigerated) for a few years.

Makes you think.
eric @ PW
3/27 Hey, at risk of sounding naive, does anyone know the shelf life of a MRE? I found 3 packets when we were cleaning out our octagon last weekend. They date from the BigBar Complex, um 1999. I was thinking of having a family dinner and featuring MRE hors d'ouvres for fun? Well, maybe not... geez, I hope this question doesn't embarrass me. Remember when I thought Vanna White was a WO fire person... because it made sense in the context of the post and I'd never heard of her before. Well, maybe this question is like that. Maybe I should ask Original Ab in person (he never laughs at me, well not to my face anyway...). And I would like a ride on his backhoe. Maybe he could teach me a little about digging out stumps while avoiding taking out the shed. But clearly not this afternoon. Enuf rambling from me. (They never should have given me that brew, party or no. Quick, they're coming to take away the keys to my keyboard!)

Ab, please sign me anyone but <snip>. (I think I need to be anonymous, maybe?)
3/27 Concerned:

Glad you enjoyed some of the quotes from the not so famous 20th century
philosopher "Eraticles". I experimented with having some of them
printed on the bottom of coffee cups but.......

Old Fire Guy
3/27 MOC4546, please don't steer my wildland brothers wrong with your post on 3/25. The difference in the pay has very little to do with the work schedule... It has to do with the law that IAFF so successfully passed on the shoulders of wildland firefighters.... but wildland firefighters gained no benefits...... twice.

0081 Firefighters have a basic right of a higher calculated benefit to "assume" hazardous duty into their basic pay. It also counts towards their retirement. They also have similar benefits to cover other differentials.

MOC4546, don't lump all of the folks from DoT, Veterans Affairs, DoE, and DoI into the same boat as DoD firefighters. They each had to jump through hurdles to be given the same benefits just as the wildland firefighters are doing now. They didn't achieve that goal as "full service" firefighters as you claim.

An example is Veterans Affairs, they have firefighters in a single building..... yes a single building. They provide "Fire Protection" for a single type hazard and don't provide mutual aid. They do not provide for "full service" fire like you say. Also, the DoI firefighters have PRIMARY wildland firefighter duties with occasional structural duties, but specialized training or structure protection responsibility.

MOC4546, I may have missed something in your post, but from the overwhelming majority of folks this is what I've heard.....

FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS ARE FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS.... Red, Green, Black, Yellow, Orange, White or Blue.

I worked at a Military Base..... the first day of work, the Senior Airmen, Staff Sergeants, and civilian DoD folks were talking about the "good ole days".... three years prior.... thats when they had their last "MAJOR" fire on the base...... It was a VEHICLE fire.

My busiest year with the Forest Service was 1996-1997 and we had over 40 vehicle fires that year, over 50 traffic collisions, numerous medical aids. two airplane crashes, and yes over 40 significant wildland fires.... even two structure fires thrown in for fun..... oops .... wildland firefighters are non-risk.... not all risk.

I agree our Forest is a little abnormal, but the wildland urban interface is spreading nationwide. I think that any urban interface firefighter, where there is a true interface problem, would agree.

FIRST SCENARIO – ENTIRE YEAR WORKED – BASE TIME WITH NO OVERTIME OR PREMIUM PAY. (Note old rates of pay, for comparison only)

GS-0081-09/01 Station Chief - 144 hr. workweek (DoD Firefighter)
Annual Salary: $42,747 per annum $1644.12 per pay period
*Firefighter Calculated Salary: $58,069.44 per annum $2233.44 per pay period

GS-0081-09/01 Station Chief – 80 hr. workweek w/ 32 hrs. compensated standby time. (DoD Firefighter)
Annual Salary: $42, 747 per annum $1644.12 per pay period
*Firefighter Calculated Salary: $55,502.72 per annum $2134.72 per pay period

GS-0462-09/01 Battalion Chief – 80 hr. workweek w/ 32 hrs. non-compensated on-call standby time. (Wildland)
Annual Salary: $42,747 per annum $1644.12 per pay period
Wildland Firefighter Salary: NO CHANGE NO CHANGE

Rogue Rivers

The disparity is even larger between pay for Series 0462 (or 0455) and pay for state/county wildland firefighters. No wonder we have a retention problem. Ab.
3/27

There are many new photos on various photo pages, specifically Handcrews 11, Handcrews 12, and Handcrews13, Fire 21 and Fire 22, Helicopters 13, Engines 10, Logos 9, AirTankers10 and GrandPrix/Olds Fire. Thanks to all contributors.

I finally got caught up. If anyone finds broken links to larger photos or to the photo description pages or incorrect descriptions, please let me know. If contributors would rather have their real or full name listed in the descriptions page, please let me know. As for any mistakes, I've been a few days working on this and sometimes not with the clearest head. Thanks to Original Ab for updating the dropdown menu when he gets to it.

(Original Ab wouldn't let me post the photo of him in his bib overalls learning to drive his backhoe or the one of him lounging with a beer under a big umbrella while his <little> Rx pile burned. What a life! Just so's you all know, he is very active on wildlandfire.com behind the scenes now that he's retired, and WE REALLY APPRECIATE that!)

What follows are some of the emails that accompanied the photos. Ab.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

hi, this another picture from bravo 10 hope you like it, thanks & congratulations for this website
g-ray

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Hey Ab. These are some photos from a prescribed fire we did here in North Carolina. The burn went well, it cleared a lot of the over growth and produced some good fire. Amazingly we had some group torching and a nice run during the burn, just might have impressed the westerners. The weather was: RH 48%, temps were in the upper 60's, and winds were 4 mph.

-NCCrew
March 20, 2004 3 photos

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

~~This is a picture of my friend Amy and I initial attacking the Tobias Fire last summer just outside of Salmon, Idaho. The fire blew to 10,000 acres and we were stuck in our safety zone for four hours! LOL Lot of good we did huh!?!
~~Jill and Jesse finishing up with the Badger Fire 2003 and having a "piss pump" war!!
~~Here is me sitting in a K-MAX out at Indianola July 2003!

Jill A

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Ab, Here are some photos. If you like any of them that's good. Feel free to use them. If they go into the trash it's not going to hurt my heart. It's all good. You've really done a good job putting this page together. Hope this year is good to all of us.

Thanks for your time, Chris D R8 timber marker

Nice photos. Ab.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Attached is the logo of the Brandywine Creek Forest Fire Crew out of Pennsylvania District 17 . Please Post this on your site for us . I am the President of the Crew , if you have any Questions Feel Free to E-mail me. Here's a link to Our Webpage.

Thank you Very Much!
Dan Seese

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Hi Guys, Fantastic website with excellent references and information.

Please accept these photos for upload to your website from Wellington
Volunteer Rural Fire Force. Wellington New Zealand.

Regards
Paul Setefano

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Just recently finally invested in a scanner and thought I would drop off a few new, old pitures from the 1999 and 2000 fire seasons. If any catch your eye I would love to see them on the site. Thanks, MadRedZeke

Burgdorf Junction Fire On The Line
Flexing Outside The Helliwell
Mc Call Smokejumpers Jump Tower
Trapped Inside The Heliwell
Burgdorf Junction Fire and Brian Gets ready for swimming
A Thirsty Brian FinleyTakes A Drink

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

From Lakerschamps:
The following photos are of the Ventura County Fire Crew.

Ventura Crew- just got done with a training cut adams canyon
Ventura- control burn haley ranch
Ventura Crew 2
Simi Fire- simi fire oct 03
Burnout- control burn haley ranch
Ventrua Terratorch- fire control worker now firefighter clint hull using the terratorch
Training Cut- training cut @ broom ranch 6 & 7 are on heli page
Drip- fire control worker fuller burning out
Ventura Torch- control burn haley ranch
Ventura Crew 3- control burn haley ranch
Quick Pic- pausing for a quick pic in mentryville simi fire oct 03 
Crewmember at Work- fire control worker fuller
Haley Ranch- control burn haley ranch 
Laying on Fire- fire control worker golden burning out
Ventura on Simi Blowup- mentryville blowin up just watchin the show simi fire oct 03
Crew 21 and Crew 22

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

My name is Brian A of Price Valley Heli-rappellers. I would like to submit a photo to go in your Logo's/Patches page. While I'm at it I thought I'd send you a photo of myself (left) and Jason R (right) doing training rappels last June. Maybe you could find a spot on your photo page for it. That would be sweet!
Thanks again!
Brian A

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Ab,
I attached some pics of assignments while on SoCal Team-One. One is a view of the Buffalo Fire on the East Montana Complex, Custer NF (Nice scenery). Second pic is 3 DIVS at West Yellowstone jump base (Rathbone Fire Gallatin NF). Here is a shot of the Old fire running through Devore and turning north up the I-15. Here is the Old fire hitting Devore from another direction. (second day of it hitting this community).

Todd

3/27 Following some back and forth about logos and photos and how to send them...

Ab,
Okay, here you go. As a little background, I noticed some of your Alberta
badges were out of date. As an organization we've gone through lots of
reorgs. As of 2004:

The Forest Protection badge will be worn by our Type 2 and Type 3
firefighters.

Same badge with Helitack added on, this will be worn by our Type 1
firefighters.
I suspect our Rappel crews (Type 1 - R) will still wear their own unique
badge, as far as I know it hasn't changed much if at all from the one you
are already showing.

The SRD badge is worn by permanent staff and some seasonal staff.

The Electra picture is from 1998. It was actually a BC aircraft that came
over to help on a north-western Alberta wildfire when one of our own
airtankers went unserviceable. What a day, one of my first wildfires and I
was in a perfect position to watch both some aggressive fire behaviour and a
good airshow. I was using a disposable camera so most of the pictures from
that day were less than perfect. This was by far the best one!

Wasn't sure if you had a picture yet of a Eurocopter EC 120. This picture
was taken in 2000 up in northern Alberta. Note the helitorch to the left of
the helicopter. At the time this 120 was owned by Phoenix Heliflight but
later the aircraft was sold to the city of Edmonton and is now serving as
Air One for the Edmonton city police.

Anyhow, I very much enjoy your web site and all the pictures from around
North America and the world. If I ever get any other pictures you might be
interested in I'll be sure to send them your way!

Grant Forster
Forest Officer
Forest Protection Division
Woodlands Wildfire Management Area

3/27 The solution following an attempt to send/receive some photos in viewable format, etc. Ab.

Ab, how about you please just provide a link to www.azfs.net.

Thanks
Chief Fire Officer Adam Moore
AZFS Crash Rescue
3/26 -Big Bear RX fire thread:

Last Update: All of the fire except 5-10 acres was within the project boundary. The escape was called because the fire had exceeded the "prescription". 1 ski patrol hut was burned on the edge of the snowline. (News Articles)
Interface forests are unfortunately in a world of their own. Brush filled and bug killed forests are even at higher risk. It's a game of risk versus odds and risk versus gain.

So far the ratio has been about 99% successful burns versus 1% escapes. Also, out of those 1% of escapes, only a small percentage (I can't remember the number) resulted in significant damage. I remember this from something that came out of NIFC.... Anyone remember the link?

Beware: Large groups of residents demanding protection at all costs and small but very vocal groups with ties to the media looking for the feeding frenzy and "Breaking News". Somewhere in the middle are the groups of folks working their butts off to protect their homes and support a healthy and safe forest around them.

FSquirrel, the "getting schooled by the media" as you mentioned is known to many of us who witnessed it as the "Big Bear Bashing of 2004". I'll be using the term BBB for the remainder of my post.

The BBB event was meant as a meeting to inform and educate the residents of the Big Bear Valley, Moonridge, Sugarloaf, Seven Oaks, Barton Flats, and Angelus Oaks. It was the intent of the meeting to explain what was happening and why, and dispel fears to the many concerned residents who were there.

The meeting was meant to inform the residents that there was no threat to their communities. SMOKE IN THE AIR DOESN'T MEAN YOUR HOUSE IS GOING TO BURN. The intent was to explain that a mile of snow doesn't burn. I assume the burn was scheduled with this as a design factor. When the fire hit the snowline over a mile from the nearest houses, it dropped to the ground and was controlled. Unfortunately, a media feeding frenzy and a group of outspoken individuals kept the majority of the concerned residents from hearing the truth and expressing their concerns and support about the prescribed burn.

*** Burn around your at risk communities when there is snow on the ground. Take the chance. Reap the rewards in the future.**** Looks like they planned pretty damn good burn to me. I'm sure the communities who are so upset with the burn right now will be applauding it in the future.

In regards to the fuels, I hear that they had last burned in the 1940's. That would scare the heck out of me if I lived a mile or two over the ridge. I also heard the winds were just as planned in direction, but they peaked a little higher in velocity during the escape. RH was not high, it actually dropped to 8% prior to the escape and stayed low until nearly midnight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be lessons learned as there always are. Lessons learned will only make prescribed burning safer in the future for all of us..... both the community and the land manager.

I'm sure the concerned residents will be thanking the Forest Service sometime in the future. They held a very successful burn that helps to keep fire out of the Big Bear Valley, Moonridge, and Sugarloaf areas for many years to come.

Willing to take the "Big Bear Bashing of 2004" rather than the "Big Bear Firestorm" that could happen in the future without prescribed fire.

aka Lobotomy
3/26 South Canyon Fire Review

Hard to believe it's been nearly 10 years!

Mollysboy

3/26 Alvin FOR:EX
Got your e-mail, but return keeps coming back.

MoHick
3/26 Firepup91,

The reason the NIFC website WAS down was because of a court order directing
the Department of the Interior to disconnect from the Internet.

This affected all DOI, BLM, NPS, BIA, etc. use of the Internet. The NIFC
website is hosted on BLM computers. That site is back up and running now.

CK

Thanks for the update. Ab.
3/26 My brother the ex-cop sent me some of these from the famous stand-up philosopher, Will Rodgers.
Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco.
Never kick a cow chip on a hot day.
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
There are three kinds of men: the ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
If you're riding' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.

For the old fire eating folks:
1) Eventually you will reach a point when you stop lying abut your age and start bragging about it.
2) Some people try to turn back the odometers. Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
3) I don't know how I got over the hill without being on the top.
4) You know when your getting old when every thing either dries up or leaks.
5) If you don't learn to laugh at trouble, you won't have anything to laugh at when you are.
6) The older you get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.

There is more but these seem to fit into firefighting real well. Stay safe.

I hope some one that posts here sends in a photo of the burn in Big Bear. That's something, snow on the ground and get a timer fire. Watch out Southern Cal.

Retired L.A.V.E.
3/26 AB...........any truth to the scuttlebutt that the Redding Hotshot Crew
(originally in the 1960s, thats right, the 1960s, the Northern California
Hotshot Crew) is looking at having a reunion this year? Please keep us
posted, it would be an impressive alumni to see all in the same place!!

signed NZ Helitack Supt.
3/26 -Big Bear RX fire thread:

Is the fuel load that big that the fire is going to run like that? The RH was fairly high and it looks like the crews needed skis to get to the front line?? I guess I'm a big rook, but was it the fuel and wind speed?

Man, I felt bad for the USFS interviewees getting schooled by the media. Although, there was some discussion about Rx burns just a small while ago, interesting that this happens now.

FSquirrel
3/26 On the heels of the Cramer Incident, Region IV of the USFS has reassigned a person into the Regional Ground Safety Officer position rather than allowing the merit system to be utilized and an applicant pool to be evaluated. Those of us that have been in the federal service for a while, know that the majority of times a reassignment such as this occurs, it is not because the person was doing a bang up job in their prior position. There were several exceptional firefighters interested in this position. How could such a critical position be filled with anything but the absolute best candidate available? What message does this send about how the upper levels of management feel about firefighters in the USFS?

Along with this news, I noticed the note on an R-6 forest downgrading Engine Captains. I hope that is wrong but I fear it isn't. When will the recognition come about that the federal wildland firefighters, as well as those with other agencies, are some of the finest fire professionals in the world.

I feel for the individual that was reassigned in R-4 from a ranger's position to the safety officer position. That is a daunting position for a person that is imminently qualified for it. It is a position that would be extremely burdensome if one wasn't qualified, interested, and passionate about firefighting in the wildland.

Fire Ghost
3/26 The Jobs page, wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 are updated.

Take a look at the Classifieds page and check out the 60th Anniversary of Smokey Bear that's happening May 7-9 in Capitan NM. Looks like one big shindig. Ab.
3/25 Did you all see the column of the Big Bear RX burn? I just saw it on the
news and it is a quite impressive smoke for late march considering elevation
and temp and snow. Hold onto your hard hats it is going to be a bumpy ride
this year.

RH

This evening's report says it's 200 acres and 20% contained, running, spotting and torching in chaparral and timber, moderate spread; tomorrow's forecast is for 15-25 mph winds out of the SW/NW, temps 50s/60s, rh 20-35. Resources include 10 type 1 crews (9 of them CDF), 1 type 2 crew, 3 helicopters, 13 engines, 4 dozers, 2 tenders, 3 ATs... Ab.

3/25 From the CHP (http://cad.chp.ca.gov/) site:

Incident: 0830
Type: Report of Fire
Location: 38 AT SEVEN OAKS
Info as of: 3/25/2004 5:14:12 PM

Additional details
3:57PM - ERC will Bear City Fire
3:52PM - Precautionary evacs in Sugarloaf Area S/o Barton Ln **
3:26PM - Per 101-45 - Fire 1/2mi from base of Bear Mtn
3:09PM - D1 toward Big Bear City Fire as well as S2
3:07PM - Also evacuating snow summit area per USFS
2:54PM - Per 101-S2 Getting Rpts that fire got out of their control

SoCal CDF

3/25 From Firescribe:

This just out from AP
Forest fire threatens ski area in San Bernardino Mountains
www.sbsun.com

"Two helicopters, two air tankers, six hand crews, ten engines and two water tenders are battling the fire."

Ab, please add...

NBC 4 (Socal) News with Big Bear fire images
Fire Raging In Big Bear Mountains
www.nbc4.tv

Info about the Rx burn
Santa Ana prescribed burn project begins March 24
www.bigbeargrizzly.net

The Fire News page still has the current event category San Bernardino and Fire. It just won't go away. Ab.

3/25 Anyone got news on the Fire up near the Big Bear area? Escaped Rx? Snow on the ground?

Horseshoe Fire

3/25

Readers,

We've gotten some inquiries lately about updating a historical hotshot page we did and last revised in Feb, 2001. Most recently we've heard from Julia who has been working on the Rogue River Hotshot Crew page. Nice one. Here's what I told her about the wlf.com historical hotshot page.

Julia, I just updated our wildlandfire.com hotshot page to let people know it's a historical record and to point those interested toward the current hotshot websites.

That list was created in 2001 in response to a discussion on theysaid. At the time I don't think even Steve Karkanian's list existed. (Kelly Andersson had built most of the individual FS IHC pages.) When the theysaid discussion passed, I didn't give wlf.com ihc list another thought. Since you're the 3rd or 4th person who has asked about updating the list recently, I suppose it is still turning up on a google search... so I put some explanation at the top of the table and updated the historical links with the Way Back Machine. Thanks for the heads up.

Hope this explains why the list was out of date. Amazing how far we've come with websites on the internet and how many more good IHCs we have today due to the MEL buildup.

Anyone know which was the oldest IHC website? IMWTK. If you haven't checked it out, CA has a new IHC page too with more individual pages daily. CA IHCs Ab.
3/25

“THE LAST FIRE CALL”

In memory of
Crew of Tanker 99: Carl Dolbeare & John Attardo
Crew of Tanker 130: Steve Wass, Craig LaBare & Mike Davis
and James Reynolds

MINDEN AIR CORP’S
Tanker 48 will carry out THE LAST FIRE CALL
In HONOR OF THE CREW of TANKER 99 & 130
BY A WATER DROP
Friday, April 2, 2004
at 9:30A.M.
Sierra Front Interagency Dispatch Center
2311 Firebrand Court, Minden, Nevada
Minden Tanker Base
Minden-Tahoe Airport

The Minden Air Corp's Family invites
the friends, firefighters, airport users and the community to attend.
Refreshments will be served.
3/25 Hey Ab just a quick note.

A R-6 Forest (SOUTHWEST OREGON) has just downgraded the GS-7 Engine Captains to GS-6's.

What the HELL is goin on, other regions such as R2 & R3 are upgrading?
Wondering what is up with FS and their thinking, or lack of it.
As it is, they have ENOP as GS-5s supervising GS-5s Senior Firefighters.
Oh well, I better look at my PD

signed little birdie
3/25 Hi,
I have contacted the USFS Eagle River district {715-479-2827}.
The 0462 hotshot position was a mistake, unless they changed their mind,
the Florence Wisconsin posting is not valid.

Barry
3/25 Backburnfs,

The GS-0081 Fire Protection Series is geared up for the 56, 60 or 72-hour work week used by federal fire departments. Besides DoD, structural federal firefighters can be found with the Department of Transportation (Coast Guard), the Department of Veteran's Affairs, the Department of Energy, even the Department of Interior (Yosemite, Grand Canyon, The Presidio). The job description is that of a full-service fire department that you would find in any local government city or county fire department.

With a few specific position exceptions, these firefighters work 24-hour shifts and have true overtime calculated in each weekly shift over 53 hours. Thus 19 hours each week are scheduled overtime. Working overtime beyond the 72-hour week is overtime for 24 hours from the hourly firefighter wage. With most DoD bases in California when a DoD fire crew goes on a strike team, single resource, or other wildland fire assignment there is no 25% Hazard Pay given to those crews like federal wildland firefighters. Part of it is the way 24-hour firefighters are paid, and wildland fire is part of the job description. Anything over the scheduled 72-hour weekly shift is overtime, kind of the way CDF pays their firefighters.

The calculation for retirement is different also. For now, overtime beyond the scheduled 72-hour week is not part of the overall retirement, but instead when retirement comes they are paid from what is called the "High 3's", or the three highest pay rates made during a career. Negotiations are in the works through the federal employee unions and IAFF to calculate overtime as part of it, but you know the story regarding the snowball and hell.

Portal-to-Portal pay is made to most DoD bases that allow their crews to go out on wildland fire assignments. I say allow because not all bases have the staffing or the equipment to allow such a response, and some base commanders do not want the fire department to leave the gates except for in the local area or by mutual or automatic aid agreements. Smaller bases such as Sierra Army Depot, Two Rock Coast Guard Station, the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center in Inyo Co., or The Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey. These bases run smaller crews than bases such as Vandenburg AFB, Edwards AFB, Miramar, or Camp Pendleton MCB that have many stations and crews they can call back.

The military is paying for a full-time fire department to protect the lives, property, and war materials from the destruction of fire. Unless the Base Commander authorizes it because of manpower or mission requirements those engines stay to protect the base, not the outside world. If a fire happens and the fire department does not do their job the base commander, fire chief, and civilian executive officer have their heads on the chopping block.

Sometime reimbursement for DoD units can be a problem if the re-imbursement from the fire gets drawn into the General Fund and not back into the fire department budget. Because of that problem some fire chiefs can't send units to fires.

There is a big difference between the two for benefits and pay. Because of the 72-hour schedule and the skills needed and job description 0081 Firefighters make between 25% and 45% more than their counterparts in the 0462 and 0455 wildland series.

I hope this clarifies things.

MOC4546
3/25 To those that are asking about the DOD firefighter. I am DOD at the GS-6-9. My pay works this way

Base pay at the GS-6 step 9 for 56 hr.
OT from the 56 hr. to the 72

72 hr. work week 24 on and 24 off.

portal to portal pay........Yes

If you look at a regular GS-6 step 9 pay you are making about 38,000

now look at a GS-6 step 9 0081 pay and I make 59,000 and
that includes Haz.pay and holidays.

I hope this helps.

Just to give you some background. I worked for the Forest Service for 7 yr. and then I came over to DOD to get a full time job and then I was going to go back to USFS but the cut in pay was too great to take for my family. Good luck to the wildland fire fighters, hope to see you at the helibase.

LIMO
3/25 Vicki, I am deeply saddened by yet another death in our profession. I provide my condolences and am deeply saddened. I hate it everytime one of these messages come up on the "board". I think we can each play a part in preventing accidents and preventing future losses. Please provide us with anyway we can help.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Backburnfs, hope this answers your questions and gets you off the fencepost.

Regarding your questions: From your original post.

1) Your questions...."DOD has the 0081 series, what benefit does that give those
firefighters over DOI and USDA?"

Answer: A myriad of laws that provide special benefits only to those federal firefighters covered by 0081. An example is... hmm that pesky little lunch break required on incidents..... It's covered and not negotiable by the 0081 firefighters... it's up to interpretation for the Forestry Tech's. I'd be happy to continue this answer if you'd like additional (Note: I provided the smallest benefit of being 0081 if anyone wants to nibble, there's some pretty big things that are also covered, but they are all available to anyone who can use the internet)

2) "Do they get their hazard pay and OT included in their retirement calculations?"

Answer: Yes. They have a special calculation that counts these things as basic pay. I'd be happy to explain. Their OT outside of basic work hours is not included. It's a confusing subject but I can explain.

3) "Do they get Portal-Portal pay when away from their home unit?"

Answer: Yes

4) "If there is no benefit to changing from a 462 to 0081 what is the sniveling
all about? "If there is sign me up!"....... www.fwfsa.org

Answer: There is a great benefit for wildland firefighters having their own series or being included into a series that most represents them. I'd also be happy to explain. I'd be happy to sign you up.

5) Your statement: "If you are scared about keeping your job or moving up in the federal fire organization, find out more about how to qualify for the 401 series. I don't think it will go away very soon and the qualifications are not all based on having a college degree. Many of our "S" and "I" courses will help as will your experience."

Answer: Only a very few S and I courses qualify for the 18 upper division credits for the 0401 series. Most of them are offered at Marana. The only sure fire way to qualify is TFM.... but don't hold your breath..... 40 or so positions per year.... Definitely not a fix..... The R-5 classes being offered?... also not a fix at the $1500 plus (and I mean plus) a course.... for a couple of credits....

A recently separated.. (went to a better paying agency with better benefits) former Type 1 IC with over 30 years experience only had a hand full of classes that met the 0401 standard. He figured he'd have to go to school the rest of his career to meet the needs of the 0401 series. Kinda a waste of time .... especially when there are other agencies willing to gain your experience and give your the same retirement in 5 years as you would get in 25 years with a federal agency. (And pay you twice as much)

It all links back to recruitment, retention, and a pleasurable work and HOME environment (Career). Go Figure.

Lobotomy

P.S. - What happened to Chat nights?
3/24 Chica,

CDF DOES have a agreement with the State of Oregon, the State of Nevada, and the State of Arizona that the CDF aircraft are available for IA. The only requirement is that they be able to fly to a CDF base that night. So in fact the S-2T's and the S2-A's have gone out of state for several years now. CDF just does not want them committed for the incident. And they go to any fire, state or federal. What ever NICC wants. Same goes for engines and hand crews with some exceptions and rules for CDC hand crews.

Keestrokes
3/24 Ab, Prayers and condolences to our family members in Mississippi.

Check this link for more information on current firefighter safety issues.
www.firefighterclosecalls.com

That is where I got the details on the latest accident.

Last night a 40 year old volunteer firefighter died last night while responding to a woods
fire in Jackson County, Miss. The Coroner identified the victim as Terri Eiland. She was
driving apparatus and apparently lost control of the vehicle on Bayou Cumbest Road.
(please read the article for the rest of the info)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Some thoughts on the Firefighter position descriptions, professional series
and all that. I guess I need some education from someone who knows the
answers. DOD has the 0081 series, what benefit does that give those
firefighters over DOI and USDA? Do they get their hazard pay and OT
included in their retirement calculations? Federal Law Enforcement
Officers do! Do they get Portal-Portal pay when away from their home unit?
If there is no benefit to changing from a 462 to 0081 what is the sniveling
all about? If there is sign me up!

The "Professional Series" GS-401 deal is a snow job from the Washington
Office, partly because we are always saying how professional we are as a
fire organization. Part of the problem is that OPM doesn't know the
difference between "professional Foresters" and the "professional standards"
of our business. I looked up the word in Webster's (see below). Maybe OPM
should do the same thing. Basically it says what I have said for years, "I
get paid to do this so I must be a PROFESSIONAL." I think the National
Park Service did this a several years ago under the guise of their "Fire
Pro" system, someone told me last week that the two NPS IHC Superintendents
are the only GS-462's in the NPS system.

If you are scared about keeping your job or moving up in the federal fire
organization, find out more about how to qualify for the 401 series. I
don't think it will go away very soon and the qualifications are not all
based on having a college degree. Many of our "S" and "I" courses will
help as will your experience.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>
- pro·fes·sion·al·ly adverb (Websters)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Backburnfs
3/24 Dear Ab,

I just got news from Bob Wilken of a fatality.
Terri Eilnad was killed in a rollover accident in their brush truck while responding
to a woods fire in Mississippi. She was from Forks Lake VDF. she is survived by
her husband Preston and son Bobby. She had just completed her Basic Wildland
FF training in February.

Vicki Minor
Executive Director
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Condolences... but condolences never seem like enough. Ab.
3/24 AB,

I have watched the thread re; tax or fee or assessment for rural home owners in CA to support CDF for the past few days. Sounds good, I think those who live in the interface should pay a fee for the cost of services. The same thing happened in Washington St a few years ago with the "Forest Patrol Assessment" or FPA, it was to support WA DNR and the fire suppression efforts. We in the DNR thought GREAT! a solution to our chronic underfunding. Well the legislators in their great wisdom, took the same amount of general funds $'s away as the FPA raised. So much for that great idea.

I would like to suggest that a proviso be added that any homeowner who created defensible space be granted some sort of a discount. Money talks and brush burns.

Old DNR Guy
3/24 MOC4546

DoD bases such as Ft. Ord (closed), the four in San Bernardino county...name them??, Pickle Meadows MWTC in Inyo Co., Sierra Army Depot in Lassen County all have missions involving military testing, training, storage, or demolition, and all have specific hazards beyond just wildland fires.?

Please address those issues and how they are included in the re-write of the 0081 standard. Maybe ask some of the affected firefighters how they felt about the re-write and how the re-write affected their classification. The re-write left out airfield duties, wildland fire, shipboard firefighting, and specialized operation and maintenance of equipment or "specialized knowledge required" .... ie- hint hint wink wink... WILDLAND, AIRFIELD, and SHIPBOARD.

The IAFF 16th District website has some info about how well they like the new standard...

Thanks

Rogue Rivers
3/24 Lobotomy - yep, sadly many experienced Fed DOI/USDAg WFFs are worried they've chosen a career path with no upward mobility options unless they have a "degree".

|chica| - sorta kinda; it appears you are mixing bananas & apples with no specific timeframe for immediate need. lending any state resource is rarely reimbursed @ cost without a mutual aid agreement (MOU/contract in place), or unless an "incident" becomes a federally recognized disaster.

Radar: hope you've read & digested that "trailer bill" introduced & voted for by the CA legislature, after the 03/04 fiscal year budget was a a done deal! if not, check links for archives on this site; it was cussed & discussed last fall. VFDs and others were/are concerned by the vague "language contained therein". peruse it at your leisure - me thinks that slick piece of legislation was 180 m/l pages of verbage - most of it vague. it did specifically mention (?RA's? regional areas > ?) aka lands not within the jurisdiction of Fed or local government fire depts.. acronyms make my head hurt!

pancake
3/24 From Old Fire Guy's previous posts.... regarding the current thread...... www.wildlandfire.com/docs/quotes.htm

There is a significant difference between a leader and a cheerleader.

Breaking tradition is like breaking out of an eggshell; it's the first step to growth.
"Not until it's perfect" means never.

Leaders serve the people; bureaucrats serve the process.

Unpredictable maneuvers saved many a ship from torpedoes.

If Columbus had known for sure where he was going, we'd all be wearing saris and turbans.

Thanks OldFireGuy... your post hit the point.

Concerned
3/23 MOC4546, (Re: Wildland Firefighter Classification)

Your statement, "How many wildland firefighters do you know who have FAA approved CFR skills, ambulance skills, dispatching for a full service 911 system, structural skills requiring Firefighter I certs, and training for specialized equipment?"

My answer: A whole lot more than you think.

I appreciate your discussion and would like to provide a little more info:

Stats for the FICC - San Bernardino. Similar stats are available nationwide for any dispatch center who has their WildCad available online.

Calendar 2004 (Prepared 03/20/2004 16:02)
Incident Type # of Incidents
Aircraft Down 7
Emergency Standby 3
Hazmat 12
Law Enforcement 3082
Medical Aid 252
Miscellaneous 84
Prescribed Fire 2
Public Assist 163
Resource Order 14
Search and Rescue 35
Smoke Check 5
Structure Fire 2
Traffic Collision 132
Vegetation Fire 14
Vehicle Fire 6
Total Incidents 3813

MOC4546, I appreciate your support for a wildland firefighter series and the idea that they may not fit into the current 0081 Fire Protection Series, but the job is not as different as you have presented. I like to hear the different opinions and views from the outside. They keep us "wildlanders" on track and focusing on the issue.

Wildland firefighters led the way for the re-write of the 0081 series only to be shunned by internal agency forces when their issues came forward. Please note that USFS didn't even attend this meeting. (Link Document Attached).

I speak for only myself, but from what I've been hearing, wildland firefighters want a series that represents the job that they do. It may be a totally new series or a properly re-written 0081 series