"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
May, 2004

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5/31 Tahoefd: you've got to look beyond Cal-y-for-nee-a. There is an NFPA Standard (NFPA 1977)
which covers all wildland PPE, and is the nationally-accepted standard. Most good wildland boot
companies now have the independent, third-party tests to get certified as NFPA-compliant.

Minimum standard is 8" high, leather, lace-up, non-skid sole, and lots of other cut/penetration/etc
requirements.

Aberdeen
5/31 GPer' wrote about wildland firefighting prior to modern technologies such as chain-saws and aircraft. He says

<<"We've gotten so dependant on the new technologies our career has gained that we have forgotten that the Wildland firefighters of the past did the same job we did with less. Granted it was not as safe as it is today, they still got the job done.">>

I've often thought about the differences, and have concluded that it is not at all true that it was more dangerous then, nor that early wildland firefighters "did the same job we did.....". The primary differences are: MUCH greater fuel load per acre now (consequently significantly more dangerous), and the increased urban interface problem (adding danger and difficulty, reducing options, and contributing to a need for more aggressive tactics). Our technologies have merely allowed us to more or less keep pace with the increased demands of the job.

CDF Mike in Arroyo Grande (retired)

5/31 I've been a lurker on this site for a really long time, and have finally decided to voice my opinion like everyone else on here. I've been reading books alot lately about the old days of Wildland firefighting, and the many hardships they had to overcome. Can yall think about having to hike onto the fire line carrying a cross-cut saw instead of a chainsaw? We've gotten so dependant on the new technologies our career has gained that we have forgotten that the Wildland firefighters of the past did the same job we did with less. Granted it was not as safe as it is today, they still got the job done.

I'm just a part time wildland firefighter, and I'm young and do not have nearly as much experience as most of the posters on this site. However I am also still a firefighter who takes the same risks every time I step on the line as all of you do. Maybe the politicians are wrong about grounding all of our tankers, but if it saves one pilots life I think it is well worth it.

If the politicians are comfortable with letting another couple hundred acres or so burn, then why should we worry about it. Safety first right?

GPer'
5/31 Hi all,

There have been a number of posts recently about ROSS and MIRPS and the
history behind them. I have been teaching MIRPS for several years in our
ECC and can shed a little light. During the siege of 1994, South Ops and
North Ops discovered that they had crews and equipment assigned to fires,
but that they had no idea where they actually were. It took several days to
straighten it out. In after action reviews by the GACCs it was decided that
there was a need for an automated resource tracking system that would allow
real-time accountability. The Forest Service and CDF decided to contract
with Boeing to design what would later become known as MIRPS. The Forest
Service was the lead on the contract. In May of 1995 the system was put
into use at the two GACCs, and was successfully used that season. MIRPS was
rolled out to 4 Interagency ECCs in the Summer of 1999 for beta-testing. A
year later it was rolled out to all the state and federal ECCs and has been
the system of record since then. ROSS is an NWCG product that went into the
design process at roughly the same time as MIRPS. California has always
been aware of the eventual possibility that we would transition to ROSS at
some future date, but there were many reservations expressed in the
dispatch community about the speed and flexibility of ROSS. The ROSS
working group has been working very closely with Julie Vogan and John King,
the Forest Service and CDF leads for the ROSS Transition, to address
identified issues for the last couple of years. John and Julie also put
together a working group to evaluate the two programs. The California ROSS
Working Group (CREW) did an enormous amount of research comparing the two
programs and finally made a recommendation to the managers of all the
wildland agencies in California. The decision of that group is what you
have been posting.

Hope this gives a little info on the subject,
SOCAL Dispatcher

PS... Mellie, it's nice to hear that you are starting to feel better. Keep
up your spirits.
5/31 I work for the City of South Lake Tahoe Fire Dept in Calif. We currently do not have a policy on wildland boots beyond 8", and fire-resistant material. Do you know of any OSHA or Cal OSHA requirements that differentiate between structure & wildland. Or have any suggestions for links to dig for the info? I've been to the OSHA and Cal OSHA sites and got dizzy from going in circles! I'm going to try them again.

Great site! This is the first time I've visited, but as our Governor said " I'll be back"...

Thanks,
tahoefd
5/31 I'm an occasional lurker that has a few questions. With all the AT's being grounded what about the CL-215? (the "super scoopers"). Forgive my naiveté on the subject as I've never been exposed as to what they can accomplish as an IA resource. Would a "squadron" of these accomplish that which the old AT's did? Are or can they be fitted to drop retardant or do they drop water only? CDF still has their planes flying. What about other state forestry/wildland agencies? Do any have their own planes that are airworthy?

As I understand it the AT's were grounded from flying on (over?) Federal property to fight fire and can't be used by the Feds. Can the states still contract with them for fires on state/local property? Can someone please show me the light?

RET
5/31 Here's an email (Status of ROSS in CA) that was sent out to all CDF and R5' ECC. This should answer most questions. We always knew CA would be switching to ROSS. Management just wanted assurances that certain bars were met. The hold up was making sure that it would meet the needs of CA. ROSS was so slow when it launched that there were concerns that needed to be addressed before CA signed off on it. Recent upgrades and CA (CDF/FS/BLM/NPS/BIA) insistence that certain additional functions be added have addressed most issues. These we needed to match what we currently have in MIRPS. Now that the ROSS group has committed to adding those requirements, CA (and I mean all CA Wildland agencies when I say CA) has started to process the move to ROSS.

A little history on MIRPS and ROSS.
ROSS was created because the Federal Wildland agencies outside of CA would NOT take any program created in CA. CA offered to give them the code to MIRPS, spend the millions of dollars they had available to them and update MIRPS, but CA was told it would not fly, since it was created in CA.

So they took a copy of MIRPS, put it on one screen, put the ROSS shell on another, and created the ROSS program you see today. They took the best of MIRPS and added/changed/removed/adjusted to come up with what you see so far today. Much will be added in the next several years. ROSS, like MIRPS, is a daily evolving project. Make sure your IT/ECC folks are made aware of any changes you need. It is your program to use. If you don't ask for enhancements, it will remain stagnant.

Keestrokes
5/31 r5 pita,

There was a letter I posted on theysaid 5/27 that laid out how ROSS would be implemented in CA. ROSS is coming.

CDF knew all along we had to go to ROSS. What made it final was last fall's firestorm where the federal fire agencies in CA were using both systems and trying to interface with CDF. This created serious problems.

SoCal CDF

5/31 What about cancel the providers (companies) that have had tankers crash?

Todd
5/31 Ab,

If you go back to read all the AT posts, you'd say that Gerty Girl received lots of support, problem is
theysaid supports freedom of choice and speech, so we also have opposing opinions here. I
have to admit that if I answered a poll on whether contracts should be renewed with the current fleet of
airtankers, some days I'd say yes, some days no, today it would be I don't know. We've had some
very well written and influential commentary from both sides. Aside from the few "bullshit/get over it"
stuff, it's interesting reading.

I guess in a non-political world I'd say cancel the ATs with historical structure failures and fly the ones
without. Too easy huh?

Tahoe Terrie
5/31 Gerty Girl,

I will echo BB's sentiments in saying that I'm sorry you haven't found the support that you are looking for but I believe this is a simple misunderstanding or misinterpretation of where we are coming from. I know you think that our a government agencies are canceling these contracts to serve some sneaky political and personal agendas, but so far, all I have encountered is a genuine interest to keep our people, those we work with, and the public safe. You have to understand that the general attitude of this board is "safety first, safety first, safety first." I know YOU think the tankers are safe but you have to understand that you aren't necessarily going to be able to convince other people of that - especially those who have known tanker personnel who died. I do not doubt things have been difficult for you and your family since the contracts were cancelled and for that, I am sorry and I certainly hope your lot improves, but surely even you can appreciate that when I am talking, on one side, to the widow of a tanker pilot, and then to you on the other, she’s going to be the one to get my sympathy first. I know you do not at all intend to make light of these people’s losses but perhaps some of your posts give the impression that you do not consider them a matter for concern? Please understand that is our foremost priority. Best wishes for you and yours.

R5PITA,
I liked that too - even hungry bears aren’t fool enough to eat MRE’s! Ha-ha!

OD
5/31 To Gerty Girl,

I am sorry that you feel that They Said has not given you the support that you seek. I believe that you may not be seeing the whole picture. Abs and the posters here do a great job of getting issues talked about. The tanker threads have been all over the map (in my perspective), many good points have been made.

As a ground pounder (and increasingly lately, a manager) I appreciate the value of the heavy tankers. I believe that I am not alone. I also appreciate the helitankers (more expensive per hour for sure, but per gallon delivered?...) I want to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible, and have little power over the decisions made at higher levels.

It has been my impression that the pilots would not fly if they did not feel 'reasonably safe', but do not really know.

Anyway, rest assured that most of us support the tanker community.

JMHO,

BB
5/31 CDF Mike, obviously you have witnessed in-state "lawn chair riders " in an entirely different situation, and understood my feeble attempt at another humorous name coinage. look forward to your future words of wisdom; happy retirement!

OD, thanks for the link to that chuckle! bears were alert - no green ham sandwiches in their coyote camp.

Gerty Girl - our sincere appreciation for all the help pilots have provided to those on the ground; sorry they have been reduced to the unemployment line. DM's comments about the current sad state of affairs pretty much sums it up. we must look beyond the small picture - the grounding of the heavies has an economic impact that never makes the news.

btw, Abs, I have no clue where the inception of MIRPS or ROSS began. is it only rumor that ROSS was finally vetted outside of R5 for national resource management, or the folk in Boise/GB were sent to the southland fires last fall because few knew how to use it? is it only conjecture that CA STATE is considering adding Fed tools to their box for mutual aid resource tracking? no offense intended; inquiring minds...

safe fire season all!

R5 PITA

CDF is adding ROSS. Ab.
5/31 OK now all this talk about what do we do without airtankers and all the other talk. What we need to be talking about is yes, that was a tool in our arsenal but like any other job out there, when your missing a tool you adapt and find another solution to getting the job done. Face it, they are not available and i am sorry for all the personnel out there who now are out of a job. But we, as firefighters, have to come up with new tools that help us do our job better and more efficiently. Let's all come together here and get on the same page and talk about the tactics we will now use to do our job on the ground safely and efficiently. Remember we still have all the other tools. So lets quit whippering about the air tankers and get back to the basics.

Now get out there and fight some fire. I know some of you have put fires out with those dang planes. Personally i have used more helicopters in my efforts to suppress fires and now thats all we have. So get over it. Don't like it, then help develop a safer aircraft. You would not drive your engine or buggies if they where found unsafe. You would want a new one.

Just another firefighter who is going to fight fire without any airtankers
5/30 Dear Ab, Honestly I had no intention of slamming or posting negative thoughts about anyone. I asked the question because all my firefighting friends had no idea who this person was. I have never supported the negative responses from AAP or from They Said. Being negative is wasted energy. I will say I am sorry on posting a name.

With that my life has been insane since May 10th. I honestly wanted to puke over what the Government agencies state as facts. Am I bias? Maybe, but I am also someone who believes. I met my husband as his loader… He has worked for Aero Union for the past 14 years. Never once did I question the “Airworthiness” of his tanker. I watched the pride of the mechanics who worked on that old DC-4… As a wife who loves my husband would rather see him flying a DC-4 (Gerty or Ruth) than a SEAT.. I also believe they are effective and an important tool in the toolbox. Everyone in the firefighting toolbox has their place. My friends are the ones who told me to post on “They Said.” Honestly, I have been disappointed. I have asked questions to all my firefighting friends and all believe there is a place for the heavy airtankers. On “They Said” I do not see the support my firefighting friends said there would be. They told me they know the good drop of retardant to the bad, tail numbers and about “Pink Rain” As for Dr Gumby not sure. Have asked friends who should know and hope they will reply. One thought the cost of a P-3 is 4,000 a Type 1 Helo 30,000. You may not get a reply because all are trying to get the Heavy’s back in the air… Green ribbons for Green forests… Chris came up with the idea and he was a firefighter now tanker pilot… He will be in Washington this week… They wanted this site to also post the "Green Ribbon," but I’m not sure we have your support. My thoughts my views, my beliefs…

Gerty Girl

Green Ribbon Ab.
5/30 Tankergypsie-
Point taken- ( I said that not all air tankers should be grounded- meaning specifically Aero Union's Orions).

Please tell us about the "extensive inspections" that were conducted by Sandia Labs last year- because no one that I know of within the federal wildland agencies has ever seen the final report associated with those inspections. It would be interesting to see what we spent all that money on.

The DC-7s are fine aircraft, but even fine aircraft get old. Retardant is a highly corrosive material and inspite of the best maintenance possible, it's unlikely that one could ever clean it off of every critical surface of an aircraft that was never designed to deliver it.

All the best,
Dr. Gumby
5/30 Ab, didn't see where the AT board is so I trust you to put this in the right place...

AT pilot's wife

> They have stated that the Airtankers are only 20% effective.

Negative. What the report says is "During the past 3 years, airtankers delivered about 20% of all the suppressant (retardant, foam and water) used on fires." That statement does not pass any judgment on the "effectiveness" of them. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that air tankers can be replaced completely with type 1 helos.

On another note: Hilarious! www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0530B1-talker30.html

OD

5/30 Dear Ab,

Re: R5 Pita's post on Pavement Queens, a few years back I was with my CDF Fire crew on the second day of a large urban interface fire in Southern Cal. It was about noon and HOT! We were up on a ridgeline which the fire was just cresting. On the opposite side of the ridge from the fire, and about 600 feet (hoselay distance) below, was a local agency structure protection strike team. They were actually in lawn chairs and in their tee-shirts. A homeowner was bringing them drinks and snacks. I know because I was watching them as I repeatedly tried to get ahold of them on the Tac net with no luck. I shouted and whistled at them to send up a hoselay, and they glanced up a couple of times, but that was it. The flame lengths were at least ten feet, and they could not have missed that there was active spreading fire up where we were....... Eventually an LA County Crew Strike Team showed up and with their help, fighting hammer-and-tongs for a couple of hours, we stopped the spread there and lined it out. The structure guys down below really seemed to enjoy the show, as they re-oriented their lawn chairs so they could watch.

From my 33 years experience wildland firefighting, I know that any wildland agency firefighters would have kicked ass getting a hoselay up there, and have been able to do it without neglecting their primary assignment (this local agency ST had at least four firefighters per engine).

CDF Mike in Arroyo Grande (retired last September)
5/30 All this talk about air tankers is making me want to puke. Air Tankers are Unsafe, Air Tankers are Ineffective, Air Tankers are the Best Thing Since (fill in the blank). Has anyone asked the pilots if they think their airplanes are safe? I guess that would be like asking Evil Knevil if motorcycles are safe.

Air Tankers and all other types of aircraft have been crashing since they first started flying for what ever reason, mechanical, human error, etc.

There is a bronze plaque at the Redmond Air Port that commemorates a whole group of Air Tanker company people that died in a transportation accident that did not involve fighting fire it crashed back in the 60’s or 70’s.

I have said this before. The tax paying people of the United States need to wake up, tell the government to quit launching billions of dollars up into space get the smart guys at NASA to do something useful and build a safe effective and dare I say unmanned air tanker. We have Predators over in Iraq flying around dropping bombs and spying on our enemies, why not have some thing like those working fires where it is too dangerous to send humans. Priorities, Priorities, Priorities.

Happy Memorial Day everyone lets remember those who have died fighting for our freedoms or serving as public safety officers. And honor those who are doing it now as well. God Bless them all.

DM
5/30 air tanker thread:

www.neptuneaviation.com/Neptune%20Bulleted%20List.pdf

yactak
5/29 I agree with SS, those of you looking to get into the Fed wildland agencies, don't just focus on the USFS and R5, particularly if you are looking at entry level seasonal jobs. While I think the USFS in R5 has arguably the "best" fire program (don't argue, its just my opinion and I'm narrow minded, I don't mean offense to the other programs) as a seasonal, I think you are best off anywhere but R5.

My experience has been that seasonals in the other regions get many more opportunities. When I started out in R5 I was willing to come in during the winter for free to get some classes to further my career, couldn't do it, none of the seasonals I knew could. In other regions it doesn't seem to be an issue, I saw many seasonals getting paid (AD) to go to classes. I don't have personal experience with the other agencies but again from those I've talked with the USFS, R5 is about the bottom of the barrel for bringing up their seasonals, the BLM and NPS in California seem to do a decent job of getting their people up the chain, but the USFS in R5 seems to rely on the crap shoot of the JAC. Despite the media attention and some attitudes, the other regions do get fires so you will see plenty of action pretty much anywhere you go (plus anywhere has to be cheaper to live than CA).

Understand I mean no disservice to the USFS or R5, I still think it is at the top for firefighting and I miss it every day but payday, but at the entry level, it leaves something to be desired.

Fedfire
5/29 The FWFSA website has been updated with news from the recent trip to Washington D.C.
It's time for all you federal wildland firefighters to join. www.fwfsa.org

-Tonka
5/29 FWFSA Goes to Washington

Recently, representatives from the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association traveled to Washington on yet another lobbying trip to educate congressional members on H.R. 2963, the Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act (the portal-to-portal bill) and to receive confirmation from the House Civil Service Subcommittee that hearings on the bill have been promised for July of this year.

Recently on "They Said," FWFSA Business Manager Casey Judd posted an e-mail from a congressional staffer who had the audascity to suggest that our federal wildland firefighters do not deserve to be paid while sleeping and eating "free food." As a result of Casey's "call to arms" on the site, the staffer got an earful from many of you across the country.

Always looking to "educate" someone, Casey and FWFSA crew's first DC appointment was with none other than Mr. Frank Gladics, the staffer who questioned the need for portal to portal pay. Ironically, according to Mr. Gladics, he once was a federal wildland firefighter.

Thanks to the outpouring of e-mails to Mr. Gladics and FWFSA's "education", Mr. Gladics became a supporter of our issues rather promptly and agreed to assist us on the Senate side if a Senate bill is introduced.

FWFSA came away from Washington with a number of new supporters and cosponsors on the legislation. In addition, they are continuing to work with Senators Feinstein and Domeneci for a senate version of the bill.

FWFSA also sought time with representatives of the Forest Service so as to let the Agency know in no uncertain terms, that the portal-to-portal issue was not going to go away, that the FWFSA had the ear of congress on the issue and that it (FWFSA) hoped it could find a way to "work with" the Agency, rather than against, on bringing these benefits to our federal wildland firefighters.

The FWFSA met with Mr. Denny Truesdale and received some semblance of an understanding as to where the Agency's concerns were. However, Mr. Truesdale agreed with an awful lot of what the FWFSA representatives had to say about the issues. Additionally, Business Manager Judd and Association President Mike Preasmeyer are scheduled to meet with Region 5 Forester Jack Blackwell next week to discuss a variety of issues, including portal to portal pay and classification .

The trip was a success, however we all must be mindful of how slow the wheels of congress work. The FWFSA has laid the foundation for significant support on the issues affecting all of you, but we need your help.

A reminder to FWFSA members and those considering membership...we are currently in the process of mailing out hundreds of letters to our members to ensure adequate contact information given the fact the fire season has begun.

The FWFSA is in the process of working with vendors to create professional membership cards and provide its members with other FWFSA goodies. To that end, we'd like to use this forum to encourage all members, and those who want to become members, to contact Business Manager Casey Judd either via e-mail at FWFSAlobby@aol.com or office phone at (916) 515-1224 to provide accurate information on your mailing address, phone number and any other pertinent contact information.
5/29 Jason,

SS is right, don't give up. Keep looking into the other agencies in R-5. Around August start going back the fire stations and talking to the captains. Some of their firefighters return to school and they need to fill those positions for the rest of the fire season. I have known many firefighters who worked the last two months of the season and then came back at the beginning of the following season. The fire season really heats up in September around Southern Cal when the Santa Ana winds blow into town. The best thing you can know is not to give up. If you want a job in firefighting, you have to be willing to fight for it. Trust me it will pay off in the end. Good luck.

Firenorm
5/29 RE: Gleason

I too had the good luck to work with Paul on wildland fires and Rx fires early in my career. He was as interested in the rookies as he was in the overhead, perhaps even more so. My regret is an echo of so many others. I wish I had learned MORE from him.
JJ

5/29 Jason,

I know you're disappointed that you didn't get hired by the USFS in R5, BUT THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER JOBS OUT THERE!!!! The consent decree only affects the Forest Service, and only in region 5. That means that USFS jobs in all other regions are still open to you. Jobs with the BLM, NPS, and Fish and Wildlife in ALL regions, including region 5, are also open to you. It's a little late in the game, but get on USA Jobs and apply for some other jobs. The consent decree won't last forever, and you will be much further ahead if you get some experience somewhere else rather than holding out for that dream job.

I have worked in region 5, and when I did, I was guilty of the "region 5 is the only real region" ego booster. Trust me, just being in region 5 doesn't make it a good program, and there are great programs in all agencies and all regions. If you're new, getting any experience you can is the most important thing.

SS
5/29 Thanks for all the good wishes, everyone. Life is really good, rich, full of love. I walk, I rest, I pull some
weeds one handed, I read theysaid. KRS and others, Paul Gleason included, continue to inspire me.
Last year I started a memorial website for Paul, tracking down some of the materials on the web
relating to his life. I plan to get back to finish that when able. Karen has some additions to incorporate.
Here's the link: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/gleason/memorial.htm

I hope everyone has an inspiring and safe Memorial holiday.

Mellie

5/29 Abs,

First hope Mellie is getting better, and even though this is my first time writing I have been an avid reader for
some time now. Thanks for having this forum for everyone.

Second, I was wondering if you could help me out. I have been trying to take the philosophy of Mr. Gleason
to heart and be a student of fire. However, I have had no luck in finding a place where I could research and
learn from past incidents. I was wondering if there is a site or something where someone could go to really
take part of Lessons Learned.

BG

You probably know about the Lessons Learned and the Leadership websites. Readers, any other resources on past incidents? Ab.
5/29 Dr Gumby... Please understand!! Yes we might need new Aircraft, but the Airtankers we had until May 10th are airworthy. They went through extensive inspections last season. Also one company had the accidents, yet no one on the BRP, or the NTSB contacted that contractor nor their pilots. The NTSB thought that the C-130's and PB4Y's were still flying. Did not know they were grounded after the accidents. They just lumped all the contractors together. As for the DC series they sure were built to last... No wing failure in history in the DC series. This is totally political. Some in management want to see all the heavy airtankers replace with Type 1 helicopters. They have stated that the Airtankers are only 20% effective. My husband is an Airtanker pilot. I trust the company he works for and have never.... never!!! been worried about the wings falling off. Why because I totally trust the company he works for (Aero Union) and his ability!

QUESTION TO ALL YOU FIREFIGHTERS????

Do you know who <snip> is????????

AT pilot's wife

Anyone who wants to jump into the AT name calling, feel free to go on over to the AT board and do it. Please read their posting policy first. Ab.

5/29 FYI,

Asked to post this message: New California chapter of NWSA. For information, contact:

JimWills@Firestormfire.com or
Woodsfire@msn.com

Stu
5/29 awww SoCaLFF, sorry to rile ya! was only poking fun at past years stories - when OES strike teams left their home turf to protect structure in another state during a major rager. if no action, they unloaded the lawn chairs (read the archives; it happened). Surely if it's acceptable to gently use funny terms.
Wildland Fire Terms to describe Fed FFs, etc. why not coin a new phrase to describe the pavement queens?
lighten up, we know there is a big difference between wildland fire and the daily hazards faced by those who respond to a 911 call.

<< still waiting for someone to address the disparity of passing the boot in fire camp vs at the local government level.

diff topic. comment re. "passed on by SoCal CDF":
If R5 doesn't choose to get on the ROSS bandwagon they are shortsighted (or are the Feds considering a CA RIMS cross over for resources?)
Heard months ago that MIRPS was being introduced as a state tool; now ROSS. my my my, maybe last fall's so-cal firestorms' lessons learned will make a difference & we'll all be on the same page someday. any R5er wanna guess how SEMS will fair?

MIRPS, ROSS, SEMS, RIMS: my mind is reeling with all the acronyms.... gonna go do some light reading, just got my hands on a bootlegged copy of the BRC's rept to the governor. it's 5/8" thick; the pulp tree industry must be alive & well

be safe & sane this Memorial Day weekend all. never forget what Memorial Day is all about

R5 PITA

I do believe the informational post indicates that all are on the same bandwagon. Both MIRPS and ROSS began in R5. Sometimes it takes a while for this stuff to shake out. Kudos to those doing the hard work. Ab.
5/28 Tankergypsie-

Nothing sounds better to me than the sound of those radial engines coming in on final. My bacon has been saved many times by some brave, nameless, half crazed firefighting aviator diving a DC-7 into a hellhole that most normal aviators wouldn't fly a piper cub into. Having said that, my 27 years of wildland firefighting can no longer allow these fine people to hang their lives out that far in the name my tactical plan. While I know that most air tanker pilots would gladly accept the risk to do what they love, I have seen some pretty boneheaded uses of airtankers over the years. This was not the fault of the contractors. The contractors were going above and beyond the call of duty to please some witless blabbermouth who happen to have a portable radio and the right frequency. Bottom line- lets do it right.

Demand new air tankers now.
It will be painfull for awhile I know, but no less painfull than watching the wings fold in on some nameless bastard trying his/her best to deliver retardant to the groundpounders below.

Dr. Gumby
5/28 Some info on ROSS-MIRPS
From Lessons Learned Center: www.wildfirelessons.net/Library/News/MIRPS_ROSS_article.doc
NWCG on ROSS: http://ross.nwcg.gov/

Hi Everyone!

Yesterday, CDF held the CA ROSS Evaluation Collaborative Meeting with CA Wildland Fire Agency Management to make a decision on the implementation of ROSS in CA. Attendees were:
Ray Quintanar - FS
Ron Raley - FS
Julie Vogan - FS
Doug Waggoner - BLM
Sue Husari - NPS
Jose Merjil - BIA
Jim Wright - CDF
Ray Snodgrass - CDF
Ernylee Chamblee - CDF
Rich Green - CDF

The following decisions were made:

  1. Federal CA agencies will implement ROSS by May 1, 2005
  2. CDF will implement ROSS no later than January 1, 2006
  3. An Interagency Transition and Implementation Plan will be written and completed this summer
  4. The CREW (Core Members) will stay in tact to work on:
    • Cost Share Agreement for items needed requiring funding for all agencies (for T1 lines, etc.)
    • Research & Complete Connectivity Process from NITC to GACCs & SAC (T1 lines)
    • Service Level Agreements
    • Establishing Federal & State (2 positions) participation on the ROSS Change Board
    • Establish CA ROSS Training Plan
    • Process to utilize ROSS data for customization of reports (such as Governor's Report, etc.) & back-up for a CA database
    • Work with ROSS Team on input from Altaris & WILDCAD interface properties & compatibility, when funds are (final) approved for the generic ROSS-CAD Interface
  5. CDF will internally discuss the need for a dedicated CDF ROSS Implementation Coordinator
  6. A Letter of Intent will be distributed to units under the CWCG Letterhead (& signatures) outlining these decisions
On another note, Ray Q. has agreed to let the (forest) ECCs that want to voluntarily use ROSS to process out of state orders this year on these conditions:
  1. They MUST go through the normal ordering channels/organization, so GACCs know what is being committed. No wiggle room here.
  2. Protocol must be set up on how to do this so it is happening in the same manner (GACCs need to establish some basic Business Practices from GACC to ECC for this summer)

There were a few forests that desired to use ROSS as a practicing tool in filling out of state orders. NOT all ECCs have to do this. If you have a desire to do it, contact your GACC and let them know. I think this will ready us for implementation and use the training that has been accomplished.

There are still many decisions to be made & researched for the items listed above. The decision yesterday allows us to move forward in starting the process of implementation. I know you may have other questions but all will be known in due time!

Thanks to everyone for helping ROSS happen in California!

passed on by SoCal CDF

5/28 good evening,

just wanted to say hello from new jersey, my sister lives in sepastopol (however you spell it ) and i guess knows you or of you and told me about your website, I am a volunteer firefighter in woodbridge, (new jersey) and have to say cool website so........"Cool Website" take care keep up the good work and remember sail fast and live slow.

Mike

Welcome, Mike. Ab.
5/28 Huey and others-

No matter how much people whine and complain
(including Evergreen), the 747 will not be used (at
least not anytime soon). Because like the rest of the
tankers, it was not manufactured for the sole purpose
of delivering retardant. If you have not paid
attention to why we aren't using them, this is one of
the big reasons.

Also, if people haven't heard, up here in Alaska we
have been approved for severity funds to bring in two
of the CL-215's...I don't think we have secured them,
but we are in negotiations....

It's no big deal not having the AT's, we'll just either
chase bigger fires, or not go after them all and let
things burn like we do up here in Alaska.

-AKFSS
5/28 As an R-5er, I hope all USFS stations and other Fire
Stations across this state and country remember....

Something that is not commonly known or often forgotten
is what we are required to do as we raise our US Flag
every Memorial Day. In light of this past year and
continued difficult times we are having in Iraq and
Afghanistan, I hope all Station Managers/Captains
working this coming Monday remember to pay tribute to
those soldiers no longer with us. If you think back 200
years, where would we be without their sacrifice.

UNITED STATES CODE
TITLE 36, CHAPTER 10

§175. Position and manner of display

(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first
hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to
the half-staff position. The flag should be again
raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On
Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff
until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff.

www.usflag.org/us.code36.html#36

Sincerely,
"We will never forget"

5/28 R5 PITA,

Lawnchair riders wow that's pretty good, but I do take offense to that statement. Well, being a former fed and R5er and now working for CDF/Riverside Co. Fire I think that is an ignorance and neglect on your part of not being properly informed about other depts. My thing is that you need to show tolerance and if your a supervisor its important that you do not reflect your beliefs to your crew. We all have folks on in both of our depts. That do not represent us well. Now that I work there I have worked with some excellent fireman who are "on there game" and have seen more of the world in the inner city than I would have in some shack up next to the foothills waiting for a fire raking rocks to stay busy! The reason why some of those folks are riding a lawnchair or sitting is they may have been up since midnight running calls and are now on a fire, if you think its easy I offer you a ride out exper. that will change your life and outlook on it!

SoCaLFF

5/28 WA Interagency Incident Management Team 2
Incident Commanders - Rex Reed/Bruce Holloway
www.WA-IMT2.org
NEWS RELEASE

WA-IMT2 Establishes Internet Presence

Washington State - May 27, 2004 -- The Washington Interagency Incident Management Team 2 (WA-IMT2) now supports their own Team website for public view. Over the last year, members of the WA-IMT2 have been exploring ways to expand their services to those communities they serve during wildfire assignments. "Today's technology provides us the opportunity to better communicate with the many residents, business owners and other agencies we serve over the summer months," says Incident Commander Bruce Holloway, one of two Commanders for the team.

The website has been created not only to provide information to the local community, but to the general public who has always had an interest in fire and the devastation it can often cause. The WA-IMT2 website will include current fire assignments, team photos, public and firefighter safety information, and links to other local, state and national situations. In addition, the site will have all-risk information related to home fire safety, emergency preparedness, and terrorism.

Many Incident Management Teams have their own team websites. This is just one of the many tools used to communicate with the general public and certainly would never replace the use of media outlets and community advisory meetings during a catastrophic incident. It does give the property owners or interested parties another avenue to gather information. During last year's assignments, the WA-IMT2 found that even some of the most remote locations made use of internet access. "We believe the website aids our team in fulfilling the needs of the community, agency administrators and supports our mission in serving the Pacific Northwest Region. Both Bruce and I are excited we can begin to provide this additional resource," said Incident Commander Rex Reed. For more information on the new website, contact Rex Reed, Department of Natural Resource Southeast Region at (509) 925-0968 or Bruce Holloway, Spokane County Fire District 3 at (509) 235-6645, Incident Commanders for the Washington Incident Management Team 2.

Josie Williams - Lead Information Officer
WA Incident Management Team 2

Thanks Josie, I added your link to the Type II Teams page. Ab.
5/28 Ab et all,

The tests of Evergreen's 747 look great in light of the recent updates in
the AT drama. The only thing that I would have concerns with is the turn
around time to reload. There would have to be a massive bank of pumps,
nearly unlimited water, and a small army to reload that behemoth. Why
don't the powers that be look at building up a fleet of CL-215 and CL-217
platforms? They have a very short turn around time and a good safety
record. Just my $.02 as I see things from the ground in my little Type VI.

Huey
5/28

Grand jury says San Diego County command center operated poorly during fires -- Seven months after the devastating October firestorms, San Diego County's grand jury has announced it agrees with the observations of many North County residents and officials ---- that the county's emergency operations center did a poor job of disseminating information about the disaster to the public. The 14-page report released Tuesday also said the grand jury determined that the federal Emergency Alert System was an inadequate tool to warn the public about catastrophes such as the wildfires, and urged county supervisors to look for new warning systems such as the "reverse 9-1-1" system the board voted to buy in March. Gig Conaughton in the North County Times -- 5/27/04

On another topic:
60 listings on the CLUB 52; good MEMORIAL DAY beginning!

Where are the hellprincesses, engine slugs, dozer dusties, camp kids, etc. Wildland Fire Terms gonna be outdone by the dirt darts, desk jockeys and grey bears?
< wants to see CDF/OES lawnchair riders pass the boot & get on the buggy!

R5 PITA

5/27 Ab, After reading New Mexico's Governor Richardson
Statement on the Air Tanker Situation
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040526_126.html,
I felt compelled to write to him and educate him. Feel
free to do so yourselves
www.gov.state.nm.us/constituentcontact.html

The only way to change a politician's mind is to let
them know how we feel.

JS
5/27 Good afternoon,

Just to let you know, the picture listed as the "Rolling Fire" in the Fire 22
picture page is actually the Chisholm Fire from 2001 in Alberta. I spent a
month on that fire, some great behavior.

Another Canuck Firefighter

I added a note on the description page. Ab.
5/27 >From what I see and hear......the air tanker issue boils down to:
Concern over air-worthiness of current fleet has resulted in decision to not use them.
The air tankers are a valued, effective tool.
No tool is appropriate for all projects.
We want to keep our people safe.
So.....let's continue to support the air tankers as valued, needed tools,
but let's help Congress understand that we need a modern fleet of aircraft,
not continue to utilize fatigued military surplus.

Hutch,
I painted the "duck" on the back of my Filson vest in '73. Learned a
bunch about fire, and a ton about safety, teamwork and trust. Wouldn't
take a million dollars for that experience, and at my age wouldn't give a
dime to do it all again.

Old Fire Guy
5/27 I think alot of people are missing the point about the AT's.

I don't think that many here disagree that the current fleet has been allowed to age well beyond what it should have been, and that too many tankers go down each year in part due to the age of the fleet. My concern is the apparent lack of concern shown by the agencies. If you go back to some of the first posts you will find a quote from an agency rep stating (roughly) that the loss of AT's is nothing to be concerned about, they are just one tool and can be replaced with others, nothing about the possibility of greater acres burned, or higher costs due to larger fires, or safety issues for the ground pounders who are losing the support of the large fixed wings, or safety issues resulting from other aircraft being jammed into the AT role. I don't criticize the agency for dropping the contracts since they determined that it was a safety issue, but what are they thinking by passing this off as nothing more than being short some shovels this year?

Several people seem to show some ignorance to what it is AT's do

Yes Dozers can put in better line, but they are slow, limited by terrain, and it is not wise to stick them right at the head of the fire. They also don't do anything to retard the fire allowing resources to close on the black.

Helicopters are nearly as fast but don't carry the same kind of load, for comparison try taking a 1" line into a structure fire, now try it again with a 2.5", the application rate is key, not just the total water applied. 250 gallons applied in one minute will leave you with a blackened room, the same applied over 10 minutes will find you washing off the foundation. Even the biggest helos only carry 1/3 to 1/2 the load of a tanker, plus lets not forget how old those Skycranes and Chinooks are, anyone notice how many Marines died in CH46's due to mechanical failure, those 46's are roughly the same age of those 47's and had USMC logistics supporting their maintenance, not a company with limited resources.

AT's provide rapid deployment of "scratchline" faster than most other resources can even reach the fire.
They also have very little concern for topography (if you've ever seen a P3 dropping downslope in the Kern canyon you will understand there are few places they can't go) and have the nearly unique ability to safely attack the head allowing all those flanking or indirect resources time to complete their jobs.

For those claiming the AT's just make others stand around while they work, AT's are not intended to directly support the ground pounder, helo's do that job much better. AT's keep the fire at bay allowing ground pounders to get up close and personal or time to get the heck out of the way of the fire when things don't go right.

Anyone who thinks this will stop with the heavy AT's better look at the other resources out there, the helo's safety record might be looked at, certainly more ff are killed in helo's than engines, and the helo fleet isn't exactly full of spring chickens. Air ops by their nature are more hazardous than ground ops. This year AT's, next year no SJ's and rotor heads? I wouldn't wait for the agency spokespeople to speak up for these programs.

The agencies should have been honest and upfront, the grounding of the AT fleet is going to cost money and acreage and there is nothing out there that can do the job of a heavy AT. Money is needed now to outfit a modern purpose built fleet of AT's or the public needs to accept larger fires and losses in the interface. It looks to me like years and years of neglecting to tell the public what it is that the USFS, BLM, NPS, F&WS, BIA and the other ABC's of federal wildland fire I am leaving out has come home to roost, nobody seems to care because the government is telling them it doesn't matter.

Fedfire

5/27 Ab --

Received a message today from Prineville Hotshot Superintendent Lance Honda that one of his crewmembers, Matt Taylor, is battling an aggressive cancerous tumor. His physician gave a prognosis of six months to one year to live. At present Matt is undergoing chemo therapy and doing what he can to fight the cancer. His chemotherapy costs $2200. 00 a month. His insurance company is only willing to cover half of that expense. In addition he has incurred further medical expenses that his GS-5 salary does not come close to covering.

The Prineville Hotshots are instituting a donation account with Bank of America to help allay the cost of his chemotherapy and the rest of his medical expenses. The account number with B of A is 2884010802, and if you are in another state you can go to your local B of A and use the following account number: OR2-134-01-01 to make your deposit. Matt has been married for less than two years and has one child, Jordan, one year old. Any amount not matter how small will be very helpful and appreciated very much.<end>

A posting on your website, if it isn't already on there someplace, will be appreciated.

Brian B

We posted this already, but here it is again for those that missed it. Also check the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Ab.

5/27 Way to go OD, finaly someone sane and realistic. All others stop whinning, old things do wear out and break. Think of alternatives, new options, future. No life is worth even one big $$$ contract.
sunny
5/27 OD,
I think it would be safe to assume the 2 airtankers that lost their wings in flight were indeed found unsafe by the NTSB when they investigated the crash, however nothing I've read in the news about the NTSB report claimed that the rest of the tankers in the fleet were unsafe. From what I have read, the whole issue isn't that they are unsafe, just that the NTSB concluded that the Fed agencies contracting the airtankers are ultimately responsible for insuring their airworthiness. It's my understanding that the contracts were cancelled, not because the planes were deemed "unsafe", but simply because the contracting agencies simply don't have the technical expertise or equipment necessary to adequately inspect the remaining tankers to a degree that they feel comfortable accepting the liability of having them in the air. >From what I have read, some of the airtankers in question (Neptunes fleet was mentioned in one news article out of Missoula) have been inspected in the past by the FAA and were found safe.

I was talking to one of my relative's last night that has been involved in aircraft maintenance with the Air Force for approximately 20 years, and was told there are ways to basically X-ray the entire aircraft to verify if there are any hidden structural problems or not. This would answer any questions about the structural integrity of the airframes, but the FS and BLM obviously can't just run out and buy that type of equipment today and expect to operate it proficiently with a 2 day training class.

One question I have about the NTSB's findings, would be that since the contracting agencies are responsible for inspecting the tankers and ensuring they're "air worthy", wouldn't that same responsibility apply to all aircraft contracted? It seems to me that we seem to lose rotor wing aircraft quite a bit more often on fires, than the large airtankers. If the agencies can't certify the safety of the airtankers, how could they possibly certify the safety of the Helo's?

I hope the agencies and FAA come up with some type of inspection process to clear up the concerns with the fleet. If the planes are found safe, the firefighters on the ground really need them available when the fire's are heading towards communities, to at least slow the advance enough to give us a fighting chance at saving something. Those that don't pass the safety inspection should certainly be grounded, but take action on a plane by plane basis, not a blanket action. I do agree it is also time to look into at least newer model aircraft with less flight time on them (possibly something designed from day one for firefighting/bomber duty), but until something newer and more efficient becomes available, I'm sure most firefighters on the ground would appreciate having these valuable tools back in our toolbox again.

John
Ab, Sorry this was so long.
5/27 The Lassen NF is looking to fill a squad boss position on a 10 person IA handcrew. Check the jobs page for details. Ab.
5/27 Yactak,

> So I guess having been in the presence makes you an A&P, structural engineer and all around expert on aircraft.........HMMMMMMM???

Well, if you are going to claim that I am not in a position to have the opinion that they are unsafe I would like to know how YOU or NMAirBear are in the position to claim they ARE safe. Perhaps I am mistaken and one of you are a structural engineer. But unless that is the case, I would have to say that we are in the same position -- having to fall back from our own opinions onto those of the experts.

So far, the experts (the NTSB) have deemed them unsafe (not a surprise since a study in the early 90's said this was coming). So I ask you: what puts you in a position to claim they are safe? I'm not saying that EVERY heavy tanker is unsafe, but I think we definitely need some new machinery if we are going to be putting people on them and flying them over the public as well as our firefighters. (Have you been on one of those things? And sorry if you don't like having them referred to in that way, but its not like they are sensitive about it.) I recently read a letter written by a family member of a tanker pilot who died in a crash thanking us for taking that step to keep our people safe. Now I ask you, how can you tell those people that we have done the wrong thing? Learn to live without for the time being.

E,
I liked your post. Let's move on and do what we can. And I sincerely hope that we do NOT bring back contracts for planes that have been deemed unsafe BY THE NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION BOARD!!! Let's get some new equipment in there or at least ones deemed worthy of flight by the FAA. Till then-we'll do the best we can without them.

Be safe everyone,
OD

5/27 Jason,

How did the FSA interview go? You might get a call from them depending on how that went. ? I know that I have developed that co-dependant relationship with the mailbox waiting for the County results.
'Sides, you should look at this as an opportunity to take classes and make yourself a more viable candidate. Education isn't everything though, you can also volunteer with the Feds, check out the web site.
If it's your dream, keep visiting stations and looking for that "in".

Ab- Please forward my addy to Jason if you would be so kind.

TheSquirrel-(inthesameboat)
5/27 OD,

As a long time R5 ATGS, OSC2, DIVS and Hotshot, I feel your post regarding the Airtanker Industry is way off base.

You say you have "actually been in the presence of those things (airtankers)". So I guess having been in the presence makes you an A&P, structural engineer and all around expert on aircraft.........HMMMMMMM???

Have you talked to one of the pilots or mechanics of "those things" as to whether or not they are airworthy and capable of performing the firefighting mission? Or have you taken the word of the current FS Aviation Managements "spin doctor" half truths, untruths and unsaid political agendas to formulate your denouncement of a viable partner to the ground troops in fighting wildfire?

As NMAirBear stated in an earlier post,

“The solution is not to get rid of airtankers; they are a safe, efficient, and cost effective tool that has been proven almost worldwide. Like every tool, their use is not without risks. The solution is to break the chain (swiss cheese anyone?) of risk that we can control by intervention in the faulty process of procurement and/or maintenance of non-airworthy airtankers. New airtankers (long term) or at least new inspection procedures of what we have (short term, these things are still getting older) is the answer. Either will require intervention by the congress and will cost money. Also, the USFS/DOI will have to change contract requirements to favor awarding of contracts to operators with newer aircraft.”

The aerial firefighting pilots of these aircraft and the companies that employ them are and have been committed to supporting us the ground fighter in our annual battle with wildfire. Talk to any of the pilots….They will tell you (as you should have learned in Basic Aviation class) that they are there to SUPPORT the ground troops. That support at times comes in the form of rapid initial attack, holding fires in check, reducing BTU’s and buying time for ground firefighters to get the final lines in.

Obviously the airtankers have been glamorized over the years (as have aviation resources during wartime) and the publics’ perception is often that the retardant from the airtankers is the final blow to putting raging wildfires to bed. This is not the fault of the Airtanker Pilots or airtanker industry. This is our own poor information dissemination at work.

Please take the time to think of how many times you were supported by airtankers allowing us the ground folks to “hook the fire” and or save improvements and valuable natural resources.

NMAirBear,

I sincerely hope you are correct in your post that the heavy fleet will be retuning to us soon. My toolbox is not the same with half of it idle.

Yactak

5/27 I think the air tanker thing is silly. We all know that we fight fire with the tools we have not the ones we hope to have or could of had. I think we have been so used to seeing air tankers in the sky and they have always been there since before most of our time. However I feel we use them as a crutch, because they are so politically driven. People see air tankers and feel safe. Now air tankers are very good in some fuel models not all of them, and the fixed wings do have there place. The biggest hindrance with air tankers is that about the time the helicopters start to make head way on the fire they have to move out of the way so the tankers can make there drop. Some times they are good drops but not all the time. You could argue till your blue in the face about fixed wing vs. rotor wing, but the bottom line is this it will not be the end of the world if the air tankers do not come back. My personal feeling is that the air tankers will be back because politics will jack every thing up, just look at all the S*%t we have to put up with now.

E
5/27 Ab

If you want to add the CDF (Type 1) Teams to your Team Page, here is the southern Line Up
Team 6 George Haines San Benito/Monterey
Team 7 Gary Marshal Tulare
Team 8 Rick Henson San Diego
Team 9 Pat Kerrigan Madera-Mariposa
Team 10 Lee Winton Amador Eldorado

FC180

Thanks, I always scramble to find those to list on the fires of the season page. Ab.

5/27 I hear you jason

I also went to job fairs, visited stations, applied online, and paid for myself to get my s190,
s130, and i100. still no job. i even have fire experience. wildland and structure and emt. Its
a tough world out there if your skin is white. I also feel sorry for every "hispanic" firefighter
who have worked hard and deserve to be where they're at.

desperate and jobless
5/26 Mellie, I hope that things are getting better for you and that you're on the mend. My thoughts
and prayers are with you. Hang in there, we are a resilient sort and find ways to overcome
what befalls us.

Also Old fire guy, when did you wear the duck? did that myself several decades ago. I also
found a color shot of a fs engine in red as well as a couple old green and grays from a long
ago discussion here.

HUTCH

Scan and send in the photos - history, ya know... Ab.

5/26 I just read this article in which they quote our magnificent ::read with dripping sarcasm:: Governor Richardson tells the press that the Peppin could have been kept at “one acre” if we had air tankers and he is furious. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040526_126.html (Thanks for being so supportive there, Gov.) That’s interesting, I wonder how he became so all knowing. I think that it is safe to say nobody can possibly know that the Peppin would have been a “one acre” fire with the use of air tanker involvement.

Look, I’m getting pretty sick of all the whining and crying over air tankers. We are not using them because they are not safe so until we get some new planes in the works we aren’t using them. If congress and the governors want tankers they should pay for new ones. End of story. Let’s move on and come up with some solutions instead of talking about reinstating dinosaur pieces of equipment that nobody has any business flying. (I feel I can say that because I’ve actually been in the presence of some of those things and I’ll tell you that my first thought was that it took some very brave souls to pilot those archaic pieces of sky metal.)

Between that and all the rumors about it being an escaped prescribe fire (not true! not true!) we are facing a serious PR problem in the southwest.
OD
5/26 So I applied with all agencies on their opening dates. Visited stations. Talked to people.
Went to a job fair and still didn't get hired. My cousin's boyfriend applied mid-april used
his half hispanic ethnicity on his application and starts June 5th. Outside of applyin online
he went no further as to trying to get hired. I'm happy for him, but that just doesn't seem
right. What can you do though? Guess I'm stuck watchin another fire season on TV instead
getting to be there first hand and helping.

Jason

5/26 Mellie - I hope you are healing well. My thoughts and prayers were with you the
entire time. The crises is over and the time is here to adapt, adopt, heal
and be healthy. You know how I feel, my friend, and I know you know where to
focus. Be there now.

As for healing, can the fighting, name calling, callous belligerence, and
mindless energy be halted for just a second regarding all of the confusion
out on the ground. None of us can predict the future - the only future we
can predict is when we - on the fireline - begin to unravel and lose focus,
gain complacency - and look for others to blame.

People - we need to depend on each other to get us all through the next
phase, whether its political in Washington, burning hot on the ground, or
wearing thin at home (where it eventually manifests itself the most).
Remember - we are a community of diverse strength - and although we don't
always agree - none of us is as smart as all of us! Try having a "fire
storm" without any cooperators; is this what we need?

Meaningful, Mindful, Resilient, Respectful Communication. Choke your
badgering and keep focused on the mission and maybe, just maybe - one year
-
We'll all come home safely and in peace.

-- Ghostload.
5/26 I'm going to second NMAirBear & everyone else in recommending Bob Martin's post on the AAP Board. Seriously, even if you're not 100% up to speed on the issues facing aviation, it's a totally worthwhile read. Kudos to Bob.

Also, on a very different note, about Matt Taylor over @ Prineville IHC. I hear he was the life of the party on the fireline. Damn shame, and in fact a little scary when you sit back & think about it. In case you don't know what i'm talking about, Matt Taylor is a senior fire fighter on the Prineville Hotshots and he was recently diagnosed with brain cancer. So my question for those of you on IMTs- is there any way to pass the hat at fire camp? I mean, could you include a little note on the IAP "and don't forget to donate some money to the Matt Taylor fund" or something so that people on the lower levels will hear about what's going on with him and donate a few bucks into the hat. i mean, you do that @ a fire camp with 3,000 people and you're gonna make some real money. Just a thought.

-Nomad

Similarly with the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. I hope they get their "Fire Camp Kiosk" up and running this season. A few bucks when we've made a lot seems like such a small way to help. Keep an eye out for those "hats" this season. Oh, and you can donate to Matt via the Foundation now if you want. Ab.
5/26 The Jobs page and federal wildland firefighter job series 0462 and 0455 were updated.

Would everyone please check the Type I IIMT page and the Type II IIMT page? I have updated them to the best of my knowledge without resorting to phone calls. I think I have good info on the Type I Teams, but the Type II Teams except for R5, R1, R2 and R3 are more questionable. For example, I haven't changed ICs for the Washington and Oregon teams without websites and Alaska teams without websites.

Thanks very much for help in updating. These pages are always available via the Links page under Federal.

Ab.

5/26 AL,

My opinion is that there is no FS grand conspiracy to put AT companies out of business.

From everything I've read and heard, the WO was as blown away by the NTSB report as any of us.
Given the issues of legal liability and not having any way to do inspections, all the FS could do is cancel
contracts. (NTSB evidently didn't buy the Sandia Lab inspections or didn't know of them, WHAT?)

There's another chronology on the AT message board that lists some of the relationships between NTSB,
FAA and FS that helps clarify some of this...

Mellie

5/26 I just wanted to comment on the dozer issue. My father in law has worked in that area before and believes that the <snip> soft track machines could do the job and compared to our area, he doesn't think that it is as steep. Could be wrong, but I sure would like out machines put to that test just to see.

We are set up to climb a 60% grade with 1500 gallons of water and ground compaction of 6 LBs psi, remote control water canon and CAFS system. Would these be able to do the job??

Thanks!
SoftTrackMama
5/26 re: the airtanker and federal pay discussions

I highly recommend ordering the new documentary from NWCG's urban interface team. The title is, "Keeper of the Flame." You can get it from the Firewise website, just by paying for shipping.

I showed it to a homeowners' group a couple days ago as we prepare to update a community wildfire protection plan. It provides a great historical context for how our forests got to the mess they're in today, as well as some insight in how we can deal with it.

There's a great line in the video (borrowed from a Michael Creighton book) saying that we exclude fire because we can, but don't really ask if we should. NMAirBear makes a telling comment in the 5/24 post: "we have snuffed many similar fires over the years..."

We as firefighters can readily accept using the term "stupid zone" to define where people build their homes without modifying the surrounding wildlands. Maybe it also applies to those areas where we suppress year after year after year, without getting back in to burn it as a prescribed fire.

One radical solution I'd offer is to restructure the federal pay scale for a decent base rate, to reduce/eliminate the need for hazard and overtime pay on the fireline. I'm all for people making a decent wage fighting wildland fire, but prescribed fire suffers because some folks would rather just work the 3 or 4 month wildfire season for the big money.

But, then, I am a volunteer.

vfd cap'n
5/26 Nomad: I have read all of your recent posts and respect your opinion. I very much agree with your attitude regarding airtanker safety in your Tuesday night post. Many of those no longer with us were coworkers of mine.

Everyone interested in the airtanker issue: See Bob Martin's post on the AAP page that is linked in NorCal Tom's post below. It is timely, sage wisdom regarding the issue.

The problem of airtanker safety is one that began a long time ago. Contractors have always used older military surplus aircraft converted to airtankers. The military put these up for surplus it because they were old and in some cases because they were suspect as to their airworthiness. This procurement/retrofit process became industry-wide SOP because the USFS/DOI made it so. We/they just would not pay enough to make it worthwhile for operators to purchase new aircraft. The lowest bidder got the contract.

The key here is that some of these aircraft were suspect as to airworthiness to begin with and that aerial firefighting can be tough on airframes. Should we allow this unsafe situation to persist? I think not.

The solution is not to get rid of airtankers, they are an safe, efficient, and cost effective tool that has been proven almost worldwide. Like every tool, their use is not without risks. The solution is to break the chain (swiss cheese anyone?) of risk that we can control by intervention in the faulty process of procurement and/or maintenance of non-airworthy airtankers. New airtankers (long term) or at least new inspection procedures of what we have (short term, these things are still getting older) is the answer. Either will require intervention by the congress and will cost money. Also, the USFS/DOI will have to change contract requirements to favor awarding of contracts to operators with newer aircraft.

Some recently grounded or "cancelled" airtankers will not be back due to identified, non-correctible airworthiness issues. It is likely that soon, however, some of the currently "cancelled" fleet will be resurrected using stepped-up inspection processes by qualified inspectors. That will be good and will help mitigate somewhat a serious and immediate wildland firefighting efficiency problem in the short term. In the longer term we need to pressure legislators to upgrade the fleet to all new airtankers and to keep it that way thereafter. Do we not as wildland firefighters deserve the same level of funding as it relates to aircraft procurement as does the military? If we are interested in safety, efficiency, and cost effectiveness in wildland firefighting I certainly think so. See the AAP page for numerous ways to contact legislators or just write your congressman. Silence means status quo.

Shooter: Dozers are certainly a tool in our box but not in the Capitan Mountains where it is too steep and rocky. We otherwise often use dozers in this neck of the woods, often in combination with airtankers (same as everywhere else). The team on the Peppin Fire is certainly using dozers as applicable in line construction and structure protection.

Late night update on Peppin Fire: Latest mapping has it near 20,000 acres. Team estimates of final size range from 30,000 to 40,000 acres, most of the Capitan Range.

NMAirBear
5/26 Ab,

Thought some of the readers might be interested in this article about Neptune Aviation regarding the airtankers.

www.missoulian.com

AL
5/25 RE: Airtankers

We talk a big talk about safety in this business, and I think that grounding the federal heavy airtanker fleet was the most safety-conscious move that the Feds have made since they required people to carry fire shelters. Checklists, more & more watchout situations, abatement statements, etc are nice, but they're probably not going to make a huge difference in how we fight fire.

Grounding the heavy tankers that have proven to consistently kill people year after year- now that's a real step in the right direction. Look, i know it sucks. i like hearing the soothing roar of those guys over my fires too, but the fact of the matter is that they are simply unsafe. Did any of you who are complaining about the govt decision read the blue ribbon report? It's shocking that these things fly at all! It's a tribute to the people who maintained and operated the things.

I know that not having airtankers on fires is going to increase fire behavior and acreage, at least theoretically. Nonetheless, we can compensate for the lack of air support by changing our strategies and tactics, but there is simply no way for pilots to adequately compensate for flying unsafe aircraft. I suppose we could install ejection seats on all planes that encase the pilot several layers of nomex, but no one has offered that kind of engineering solution. See, there is an unknown potential risk to personnel by not having heavy tankers over a fire, but the risk of having them is and has been known for a while- and that risk is huge. Simply do the math folks, we can't be crashing one heavy tanker a year when there's only 40 in the whole fleet! We might as well have a russian roulette table for the aviation folks at fire camp.

Bottom line: The heavy airtankers we have now are not safe, and we're just going to have to live with their absence.

So rather than try to go backwards in time and try to get the resurrect a dead, dangerous, and decrepit fleet, why don't we take some steps in the right direction and try to get newer, safer planes flying over us in the years to come. In the short term, it's a damn shame not to have the heavies overhead. But in the long term, it'll be better for us all.

-The Nomad
5/25 Airbear said,

This massive fire is the direct result of the lack of heavy airtanker availability when it was under 400 acres. We have snuffed many similar fires over the years on the Lincoln in similar weather conditions when heavies were available.

How would a dozer work in your neck of the woods? A strike team of dozers could put in some serious line or at least ring the ranches that the fire is heading for. Think of the rehab work for the crews this fall. Maybe even think about using the new dozer line as fire breaks for next year. Just try to think outside the box.

crips triggers
shooter

5/25 Retired L.A.V.E: Thanks for the thoughts, particularly regarding the heavy airtanker situation. Imagine somebody taking away all of your type 3 and 4 engines and telling you to use Jeepsters with a 55 gallon drum and a shindawa instead. That is what it is like for us right now in the aerial firefighting business.

The Peppin Fire is now well over 10,000 acres after taking out the small community of Pinelodge. I do not know the number of structures destroyed but I would venture to guess about 15-20 primary and vacation residences. Now the fire threatens the community of Arabela at the east end of the Capitans and many outlying ranches. All of the land to the east of Arabela gets into lower cow country so it is much more defensible. It is unlikely the fire will make it anywhere close to the Pecos! (LOL)

The team had a very good day Tuesday of line prep for burnout. We finally had a mostly cloudy and less windy day. Fire spread was minimal after about 0500.

Of special note: The site where Smokey Bear was found is believed to have burned late yesterday. This is the first time that area has burned since that date which was May 8, 1950.

A: "Heavy Airtankers are a legacy of a bygone era". Not so in Canada, Spain, Italy, Portugal, the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, and Russia where they have found ways to fund contracts using new CL215/415's and BE200's. Would the be doing so if the tool was not effective? What has happened here in the richest country in the world is a case of letting inexperienced, misinformed, politically motivated bureaucrats make bad decisions and think they can get away with it. I certainly hope the resurrection of heavy airtankers does not have to wait for the death of firefighters resultant from failed initial attack. My current ATGS pilot is normally the Tanker 26 (formerly T01) pilot. Not a happy camper. He's pretty frustrated as most aerial firefighters are right now. This is no way to treat a fellow firefighter, a hero. Greed my A$$!

From NMAirBear (an old California boy lost in New Mexico)
5/25 If you really want to get the word out about the
effect of NOT having heavy air tanker support on fires
please communicate this to your Congressman and
Governor. Let the politicians know your experiences
with and without these tankers. They are the ones who
will be making the decision on whether or not this
industry is going to survive. Your support of the
heavy air tankers, and what you do on the ground, is
appreciated beyond words.

Wendie Waldman
Tankergypsie
5/25 Great post by Bob Martin entitled Finger Pointing on the AAP board:

http://airtanker.com/wwwboard/messages/10333.html

NorCal Tom

5/25 Did anyone see the directive that was supposed to come out on the helicopter long line extraction? Discussion thread was happening 6 weeks ago.

Todd
5/25 to any CDF'er
Does anybody know when or how many FF1 the San Diego unit will be hiring this season.
cdf hopeful
5/25 To A,

I hope your tongue was in your cheek when you say that the heavy airtankers are ineffective. It has been my experience that many times these beasts are the ones that keep the fire in check, until the ground pounders can get there and do their thing. See NMAirBear's recent post about the ineffectiveness of the SEATs and smaller helos. Sometimes it takes a heavy punch to knock the ire out of the fire.

Yes you are right that the present tankers are old, and expensive to operate. I don't want to see any more pilots, or firefighters die due to substandard equipment. However I do think that the fleet of airtankers needs to upgrade and new more modern ships brought on line, some how. As far as letting houses burn and evacuating people that is a strong statement to make. I am sure that there are a number of insurance companies that will not like that policy. Not to mention how outraged taxpayers would be at this policy. I live in an urban/interface environment and I work very hard at keeping my home as fire safe as possible. I know it could be a pile of ashes someday but if your policy takes hold I might as well burn it down myself and move to the big noisy, dirty, smoggy city and run the rat race with the rest of the slubs.

Ahhh So it goes.

Retired L.A.V.E.

P.S. NMAirBear - Try and stop the fire before it reaches the Pecos River from an Ole N.M. boy lost in California. Good Luck and keep safe! (the last is for everybody)
5/25 Here is some info on digital narrowbanding of Federal
radio systems. I still feel digital radio is not
reliable as analog for fire use and should not be
used.

Narrowband
Narrowband Exceptions

The mention of audio cutting out when a wideband
analog signal is fed into a digital radio operating in
narrow band analog, is caused by the way the Motorola
digital audio processing chip handles analog sound
levels.

When the chip receives a audio signal greater than it
is designed for it, it distorts badly and/or audio
shuts down completely. It has a really fast recovery
time after shutting off but sounds terrible.

For your info, all digital radio manufacturers have to
use a Motorola chip as they own patents on it and are
the only company that makes it. Motorola also has a
strong lobbying force in Congress. Big corporations in
bed with the government again?

COMT

5/25 KRS,

Good to see you are feeling well enough to travel and share some thoughts
and perspective with the Laguna IHC. Say hi to the superintendent for me.
I knew him back when we both wore the "duck".

Old Fire Guy
5/25 An update on the Snag Awareness "SoCal Tour"..

I'll be in Descanso, CA on 1 June talkin' to Laguna IHC at about
2pm. If you and your crew are in that zone and want to swing by,
if it's cool with them, it's cool with me.
So ask them (www.californiahotshotcrews.org/crewlaguna.htm)
and we'll see what happens.

Otherwise I'll be traveling back up through Nevada prolly on 2
June so if you're on the way (close to 395) and want me to stop by
I can do that.

I don't care what you are- BLM, BIA, CDF, we all take the same
risks, and this sort of thing applies to all of us.

Thanks-
KRS

Take KRS up on this great opportunity. Ab.
5/25 Wow! AB, watching this website's rapid evolution in recent years has been amazing - kudos for a fantastic job well done!

If readers/posters @ TheySaid have forgotten/overlooked the links provided here, suggest they take the time to surf. boggles my mind how many topics/issues can be found in the archives and classifieds, etc; plus WildlandFire News Page contains a link to hot-off-the-press fire news.
one stop shopping, who would have thunk it... :)

R5 Honey
5/25 Re: communications

I don't know why anyone would expect digital radios to be programmable at an incident. In my experience if it isn't a Bendix King you might as well leave it at home since that is all the radio tech can work with. Midlands are superior to the standard King mobile (Midlands are available with 100w Kings only 50w, I don't have a problem with Kings but I've used both and there were areas the Midlands worked great and the King not at all, none the reverse). Midlands have been used fairly widely by the USFS in multiple regions yet I have never been to a fire where the techs could program ours. Somebody needs to buy the COMT's programs for Motorola and Midland at a minimum, also a laptop, these radios are far to common to ignore.

As far as the 800Mhz these things barely work at home if you get out from the middle of town, every fire department in the nation that has any possibility of going on a wildland assignment away from home should have a Bendix King mobile in the cab and 1 or more Bendix King portables, it is stupid to expect CDF, USFS, BLM etc to spend the money to set up for a radio system that is completely inappropriate for use in the wildland environment (far to dependent on repeaters for even basic communication).

On the AT's I found it interesting how easily the overhead dismissed the capability of the fixed wings, yes fires can be fought without them but they are not replaceable by any other asset in the "tool box" more like when you leave your hammer at home and you make due by using a pipe wrench to drive nails, it can be done but it is much harder.

Mellie
sorry to hear you are not at your best, get well soon.

Fedfire
5/25 Observation: Wildland Firefighter Foundation's mail box isn't full to overflowing with contributions to the Club 52 yet....latest update was 5/24 and less than 40 contributors listed. We know that the USPS sends mail from R5 to Boise "round the horn"; why not call Vickie directly with a credit card number and ensure your donation goes 100% to this worthy cause?

Be safe all,
River
5/25 Heavy Airtankers are a legacy of a bygone era. No matter how many commentaries you hear from pilots, air resource contractors, and others who make their living off aerial firefighting resources, the fact of the matter is that these resources are antiquated, expensive and for the most part, ineffective. With the help of Congress and enabling legislation, the fire community at large needs to implement policy which will allow agency administrators to allow fires to burn, regardless of the few urban interface structures that may be burned in the process. Provide for rapid evacuation of residents and simply allow the fires to run their course. The savings to the taxpayer would be enormous. Problem is, too many people like the fire money - the oats - we are simply a greedy lot.

A
5/25 In regard to the message from The Princess of The Black Pearl to The Troops. You are right on Princess of the Pearl and I hope that those that read this board take heed. The world has changed for all of us in Wildland Fire Fighting with the cancellation of the contracts involving the 33 heavy airtankers. Tactics and Strategies will have to change. Safety will at times be at a premium due to the fact that aerial support will not be there when it is needed the most. Line production in remote areas by airtankers dropping retardant and not accessible by ground troops will not be accomplished as before. The list is long as to what has been taken away from you folks on the ground. Those of us in the air have taken pride all these years knowing we were helping you on the ground in any manner we could - we wanted to help you do "The JOB." Believe me, the feeling we get when we hear from you "great drop, just where we needed it, man that's what we really needed" is a feeling that we strive for everytime we showed up. The fight we are in now is not about jobs, it's about doing a job for you and putting fire out.

As The Princess of The Black Pearl said, read the AAP Airtanker Message Board. There are spots on the board that have listed where to contact Senators and Congressmen. Contact these folks and let them know what has happened to aerial fire fighting and the support that has been lost. Let your supervisors know, spread the word - it's for you.

Becareful out there bros.

Captain of The Ghost Ship.

5/24 From NMAirBear

The Peppin Fire is now about 10,000 acres. The fire began a major run at about midnight Sunday and has burned unabated to the east until late Monday night. Two small towns and many outlying ranches are now seriously threatened as the fire comes out of the Capitan Mountains to the north. The entire mountain range will likely burn.

The only air assets that have been tactically effective are the 1 heavy helicopter that we have. SEATs have only been useful on a very limited scale when winds permit and only on very short sections of line. They were grounded all day today due to winds. The heavy helicopter has succeeded so far in protecting a microwave and tower farm.

This massive fire is the direct result of the lack of heavy airtanker availability when it was under 400 acres. We have snuffed many similar fires over the years on the Lincoln in similar weather conditions when heavies were available.

Bateman's Northern Arizona IMT assumed command at 1800 Monday evening. They and many T1/T2 crews will try to establish an anchor point beginning Tuesday. Pack your bags and get ready to be really safe in a very dangerous environment as you may also be ordered to this one soon.
5/24 emt_mb

You asked a really good question:

"Is this new Digital Narrowband radio craze, which I assume is pushed by Homeland Security, going to cause problems with the C (Communications) in LCES?"

The digital narrowband craze was not created by the Dept. of Homeland Security. The FCC is requiring that we switch from wide band to narrow band. That way they can sell the frequencies in between, making more money while creating more radio spectrum. Many agencies have decided on their own to also switch over from analog to digital. There are many advantages to digital, which I won't go into here.

As long as a digital-narrowband radio has been approved by the NWCG, all Communications Unit Leaders should be able to program it at the Incident Base. If someone shows up with a radio the techs have never heard of, it's unlikely they will be able to program it. If the radio is field-programmable, the radio user should be trained to program it before they arrive at an incident. If it's not field programmable, it should not be brought to a large interagency incident. Don't depend on a radio tech being available to reprogram your radio. All new radios should be (better be) backward compatible, able to operate in analog OR digital mode.

But another question is interoperability between the radio frequencies commonly and traditionally used at large incidents and the new 800 MHz trunking system radios that many states and local organizations are transitioning to, such as Colorado, South Dakota, and many agencies in California. These are NOT compatible, and unless a person carries 2-3 radios, people can't talk to each other on emergency incidents. This is where the C in LCES is disrespected. The reviews after the 2003 fires in Southern California pointed this out very eloquently.

Jackson

5/24 For all the Communications folks out there:

DOI is buying new digital narrowband radios left and right. I know the Midwest Region of the
NPS already has them arriving at many parks.

These new radios include the Bendix/King DPH portable (which was purchased for fire programs
before it was even certified by Boise) and Motorola mobiles.

My question is this: With these and other approved radios coming into fire camp, will
Communication Units be able to program these different types to incident frequencies? What if the
mobile in my Type 6 engine can't be programmed by the COMT and my portables can't reach the
repeater or other personnel?

Is this new Digital Narrowband radio craze, which I assume is pushed by Homeland Security, going
to cause problems with the C (Communications) in LCES?

emt_mb
5/24 AB~>
Could you post this for me please?
Thanks-
KRS

Some of you have heard of me, some haven't. Long story short, I
was injured (made a paraplegic) by a snag while fighting an
arson fire in S.E. Kentucky on 31 Oct 2001. I'm now riding a
wheelchair for the rest of my life, unless some medical
procedure is invented. For more of the story, check out
http://krstofer.org

Anyway~>

A few years ago I was asked by Ron Marley (Fire Chief /
Instructor @ Shasta College) to do a little presentation on what
happened to me for his class. It's become a yearly event, and
this year a few of the Jumpers from Redding sat in. Next thing I
know, Redding IHC asked me to come over to give the presentation
as part of their snag awareness training. Then Tahoe asked me
to come out, so I did. Then Plumas asked. So I went up there.

Then I found out the Tahoe Supe sent the following out to most
of the crews:

On May 7th. We had KRS Evans from the Plumas Hotshots give a
presentation on snag awareness. It was good you could hear a
pin drop. I wrote him a $100.00 Govt. check charged it off to
training. KRS is willing to come to your station, his presentation
takes about 1.5 hrs. its a strong message it will make you and
your cutters more aware. KRS has a van that he drives around, he
doesn't ask for anything accept gas money. If you are interested
contact KRS
Rick

************************************
Rick Cowell
Hotshot Superintendent
Tahoe NF, Downieville RD
************************************

Shortly after that email went out I received a request from
Laguna IHC to come down. I plan to, but I'd kind of like to make
a tour if possible. Going to the Cleveland (From Chico, Ca) is a
bit far for me, and I don't want to receive a request to go to
(for example) Vegas or someplace shortly after I get back. I'll
go, but why make two trips?

So far the date for Laguna is undetermined, but as things gel
I'll have a better idea of when i'll be traveling in that
direction, and if any of you would like me to make a stop and
talk to your guys I'm more than willing. As Rick said, all I ask
for is gas money.

Anyone wishing to set up something can contact me on
http://krstofer.org/email.htm

Krstofer Evans

Good job on sharing your experience, Krs. Ab.
5/24 Hey Troops,
I am reaching to you folks that have the experience of working with tankers and understanding what a great loss the Air Tanker community will be to fire suppression. I'm not talking about your safety I'm talking about just putting the fire out, because that is all of our J-O-B. Any one who has been around knows how much a 2,000 to 3,000 drop of LC can do for you on the fireline.

What I am asking you to do........ is get on the air tanker message board and let the aviation world know that you "groundpounders" give a Sh__. You can make a difference ... and if you would like to see those guys over your fire again say something.... Lets give them some support!! The bottom line is we all have a job to do and we want to get it done as effectively, efficiently @ safely as possible. Let us stand as one and be the voice of the firefighting community, whether it be on the ground or in the air. ARRRRRRR...

The Princess of the Black Pearl
5/24 A safety zone has only 2 requirements.
1 It is large enough to sit out a fire run comfortably and
2 It can be reached in a timely matter.

A CDF Crew Capt.
5/23 NorCalTom & JustCurious:

In March 1999, while I was still at the USFS -MTDC, I did a Technical Report on Wildland Fire
Fatalities from 1990-1998 (www.fs.fed.us/t-d/php/library_card.php?p_num=9951%202808P)

It showed 19 fixed wing deaths (1 was Lead Plane pilot Henry Kim), and 4 rotary wing fatalities in
the 9 study years.

Since then, the NWCG Safety & Health Working Team report shows that from 1999-2003, another
13 fixed wing fatalities and 11 rotary wing fatalities occurred.

So, I ask you all: are 47 aircraft deaths in a 14 year period acceptable???

In the same 14 year period, our "big" burnover fatalities (Dude, Wasatch, GlenAllen, South Canyon,
Thirtymile and Cramer) totaled 30.

Dick Mangan

User name= t-d. Password= t-d.
5/23 From NMAirBear

The Peppin Fire moved about 4 miles to the east overnight Saturday night on the north side of the Capitan Range to the tune of about 2000+ acres. High winds and very poor overnight RH recovery in the thermal belt were major factors, not to mention major heat developed at the head of the fire late yesterday. Sundays growth was relatively minimal during the daylight hours. There is a major threat to an antenna farm and some threat to outlying ranches. Potential is for several more thousand acres to burn. A Southwest Type 2 team (Bateman) will be arriving Monday.

The Lookoout Fire also munched some more acres Sunday but containment is up to 40%.
5/23 Just Curious,

Unless I'm mistaken there have been about 40 AT related deaths since 1990.
I'd have to look up the MTDC/NWCG reports or on the AT Board. It may be
a few more than 40. On average that's more than 2.5 deaths per yr since 1990.

If you count all AT pilots and crew flying, you can come up with the percentage
that 2.5 is of the AT total. 200 is the number that represents the same percentage of
groundpounders. I didn't write down the total groundpounder numbers. I also
didn't record the total AT (pilots and crew) numbers. They must be out there
somewhere. I'll ask around.

NorCal Tom

5/23 Re: NorCal Tom,

Where did you get or arrive at the statistic you posted on 5/23? Were you including all ground
based firefighters? Night shift included? Since airtankers don't fly at night, the stats could be
skewed. Does it split out camp personnel? Dispatch or expanded dispatchers? Federal, State,
County, City, Private firefighters?

Just Curious.
5/23 Regarding AT cancellation of contracts:

I heard one statistic that made me cringe. 2 1/2 AT people die per year. If that was
translated into groundpounder deaths, it would be 200 groundpounders per year.
Unacceptable!

NorCal Tom

5/23 crispy triggers, I like your attitude!

OD
5/23 Okay Fuels Guy-
Give it your best shot (on determining the perfect safety zone) and let me know what you come up with.
Ol' Backburnfs offers some good points in his message to FC180.
I didn't require anyone to draw me a picture of what an appropriate safety zone was; even back when I was a pup (when Backburnfs was only as old as topsoil and not plain dirt).
So until you come up with the figures- error on the side of safety and use the hair on the back of your neck as a yardstick. Hair straight up means get the hell out of there fast.

With regard to airtankers- here our beloved agency administrators finally get the guts to take a real stand on safety and some people hammer them for it.

While not all air tankers need to be taken out of service, there are many that belong in museums.
If the military used the same logic that has prevailed regarding air tankers over the years within the Federal wildland fire service, then they would be using 1940's technology in Iraq right now. I say that the safety of wildland firefighters is at least as important as that of our military personnel.

I say that we demand an air tanker designed for the task- not some converted passenger aircraft that used to haul Charles Lindburg around.

Dr. Gumby Phd. (Professor of Handline Placement)
5/23 To All Federal Fire Crews-

This is a heads up for trying to fire replace items
using "S" #'s...

The following is a snipet from a May 11th, 2004 memo
from Hallie Locklear, Chair, of the Incident Business
Practices Working Team:

"Some organized crews routinely arrive at an incident
and provide the Incident Management Team with a
laundry list of items that need to be replaced. The
home unit originally provided these items through
preparedness funds and replacement due to normal wear
and tear should be accomplished using home unit funds,
not incident funds..."

What this sounds like is that the teams are going to
be more strict as to what fire crews try to get away
with in terms of fire replacing items. In talking to
a Supply Unit Leader on our local Type I team, he told
me that in their last meeting they specifically
addressed crews that show up and try and "fire
replace" non-GSA items such as tents, Kevlar/nomex
pants, etc. He was basically told this will not be
happening anymore. The crew must replace these items
using funds from their home unit.

So, thanks to Bush and good ol' Homeland Security
hacking up our preparedness budgets, fire crews now
have one more hoop to jump through in trying to
replace worn out items...

-AKFSS
5/23

-We are screwed, really screwed, by the recent fell swoop grounding of heavy airtankers (ok canceling of contracts). Everybody needs to be really aware of the safety issues that face us now that we have one less very important tool in the shed. We are already seeing a different approach (i.e. confine, contain) to initial attack here in New Mexico and I am not convinced that it is safer for firefighters or anybody in the longer term. SEATs do not do the job of heavy airtankers in timber and the heavy helos and their dipsites are just too far away in most IA cases. Let us hope that there will somehow be a positive outcome from what right now appears to be a totally WRONG DECISION!!!

Just saw this post and wanted to express a thought or 2 on it. Air tankers are just o