<<"We've gotten so dependant on the new technologies our career has gained that we have forgotten that the Wildland firefighters of the past did the same job we did with less. Granted it was not as safe as it is today, they still got the job done.">>

I've often thought about the differences, and have concluded that it is not at all true that it was more dangerous then, nor that early wildland firefighters "did the same job we did.....". The primary differences are: MUCH greater fuel load per acre now (consequently significantly more dangerous), and the increased urban interface problem (adding danger and difficulty, reducing options, and contributing to a need for more aggressive tactics). Our technologies have merely allowed us to more or less keep pace with the increased demands of the job.

CDF Mike in Arroyo Grande (retired)

There was a letter I posted on theysaid 5/27 that laid out how ROSS would be implemented in CA. ROSS is coming.

CDF knew all along we had to go to ROSS. What made it final was last fall's firestorm where the federal fire agencies in CA were using both systems and trying to interface with CDF. This created serious problems.

SoCal CDF

AT pilot's wife

> They have stated that the Airtankers are only 20% effective.

Negative. What the report says is "During the past 3 years, airtankers delivered about 20% of all the suppressant (retardant, foam and water) used on fires." That statement does not pass any judgment on the "effectiveness" of them. I have yet to hear anyone suggest that air tankers can be replaced completely with type 1 helos.

On another note: Hilarious! www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0530B1-talker30.html

OD

I too had the good luck to work with Paul on wildland fires and Rx fires early in my career. He was as interested in the rookies as he was in the overhead, perhaps even more so. My regret is an echo of so many others. I wish I had learned MORE from him.
JJ

I hope everyone has an inspiring and safe Memorial holiday.

Mellie

QUESTION TO ALL YOU FIREFIGHTERS????

Do you know who <snip> is????????

AT pilot's wife

Anyone who wants to jump into the AT name calling, feel free to go on over to the AT board and do it. Please read their posting policy first. Ab.

Hi Everyone!

Yesterday, CDF held the CA ROSS Evaluation Collaborative Meeting with CA Wildland Fire Agency Management to make a decision on the implementation of ROSS in CA. Attendees were:
Ray Quintanar - FS
Ron Raley - FS
Julie Vogan - FS
Doug Waggoner - BLM
Sue Husari - NPS
Jose Merjil - BIA
Jim Wright - CDF
Ray Snodgrass - CDF
Ernylee Chamblee - CDF
Rich Green - CDF

The following decisions were made:

1. Federal CA agencies will implement ROSS by May 1, 2005
2. CDF will implement ROSS no later than January 1, 2006
3. An Interagency Transition and Implementation Plan will be written and completed this summer
4. The CREW (Core Members) will stay in tact to work on:
   • Cost Share Agreement for items needed requiring funding for all agencies (for T1 lines, etc.)
   • Research & Complete Connectivity Process from NITC to GACCs & SAC (T1 lines)
   • Service Level Agreements
   • Establishing Federal & State (2 positions) participation on the ROSS Change Board
   • Establish CA ROSS Training Plan
   • Process to utilize ROSS data for customization of reports (such as Governor's Report, etc.) & back-up for a CA database
   • Work with ROSS Team on input from Altaris & WILDCAD interface properties & compatibility, when funds are (final) approved for the generic ROSS-CAD Interface
5. CDF will internally discuss the need for a dedicated CDF ROSS Implementation Coordinator
6. A Letter of Intent will be distributed to units under the CWCG Letterhead (& signatures) outlining these decisions

1. They MUST go through the normal ordering channels/organization, so GACCs know what is being committed. No wiggle room here.
2. Protocol must be set up on how to do this so it is happening in the same manner (GACCs need to establish some basic Business Practices from GACC to ECC for this summer)

There were a few forests that desired to use ROSS as a practicing tool in filling out of state orders. NOT all ECCs have to do this. If you have a desire to do it, contact your GACC and let them know. I think this will ready us for implementation and use the training that has been accomplished.

There are still many decisions to be made & researched for the items listed above. The decision yesterday allows us to move forward in starting the process of implementation. I know you may have other questions but all will be known in due time!

Thanks to everyone for helping ROSS happen in California!

passed on by SoCal CDF

Sincerely,
"We will never forget"

Lawnchair riders wow that's pretty good, but I do take offense to that statement. Well, being a former fed and R5er and now working for CDF/Riverside Co. Fire I think that is an ignorance and neglect on your part of not being properly informed about other depts. My thing is that you need to show tolerance and if your a supervisor its important that you do not reflect your beliefs to your crew. We all have folks on in both of our depts. That do not represent us well. Now that I work there I have worked with some excellent fireman who are "on there game" and have seen more of the world in the inner city than I would have in some shack up next to the foothills waiting for a fire raking rocks to stay busy! The reason why some of those folks are riding a lawnchair or sitting is they may have been up since midnight running calls and are now on a fire, if you think its easy I offer you a ride out exper. that will change your life and outlook on it!

SoCaLFF

Grand jury says San Diego County command center operated poorly during fires -- Seven months after the devastating October firestorms, San Diego County's grand jury has announced it agrees with the observations of many North County residents and officials ---- that the county's emergency operations center did a poor job of disseminating information about the disaster to the public. The 14-page report released Tuesday also said the grand jury determined that the federal Emergency Alert System was an inadequate tool to warn the public about catastrophes such as the wildfires, and urged county supervisors to look for new warning systems such as the "reverse 9-1-1" system the board voted to buy in March. Gig Conaughton in the North County Times -- 5/27/04

On another topic:
60 listings on the CLUB 52; good MEMORIAL DAY beginning!

Where are the hellprincesses, engine slugs, dozer dusties, camp kids, etc. Wildland Fire Terms gonna be outdone by the dirt darts, desk jockeys and grey bears?
< wants to see CDF/OES lawnchair riders pass the boot & get on the buggy!

R5 PITA

I don't think that many here disagree that the current fleet has been allowed to age well beyond what it should have been, and that too many tankers go down each year in part due to the age of the fleet. My concern is the apparent lack of concern shown by the agencies. If you go back to some of the first posts you will find a quote from an agency rep stating (roughly) that the loss of AT's is nothing to be concerned about, they are just one tool and can be replaced with others, nothing about the possibility of greater acres burned, or higher costs due to larger fires, or safety issues for the ground pounders who are losing the support of the large fixed wings, or safety issues resulting from other aircraft being jammed into the AT role. I don't criticize the agency for dropping the contracts since they determined that it was a safety issue, but what are they thinking by passing this off as nothing more than being short some shovels this year?

Several people seem to show some ignorance to what it is AT's do

Yes Dozers can put in better line, but they are slow, limited by terrain, and it is not wise to stick them right at the head of the fire. They also don't do anything to retard the fire allowing resources to close on the black.

Helicopters are nearly as fast but don't carry the same kind of load, for comparison try taking a 1" line into a structure fire, now try it again with a 2.5", the application rate is key, not just the total water applied. 250 gallons applied in one minute will leave you with a blackened room, the same applied over 10 minutes will find you washing off the foundation. Even the biggest helos only carry 1/3 to 1/2 the load of a tanker, plus lets not forget how old those Skycranes and Chinooks are, anyone notice how many Marines died in CH46's due to mechanical failure, those 46's are roughly the same age of those 47's and had USMC logistics supporting their maintenance, not a company with limited resources.

AT's provide rapid deployment of "scratchline" faster than most other resources can even reach the fire.
They also have very little concern for topography (if you've ever seen a P3 dropping downslope in the Kern canyon you will understand there are few places they can't go) and have the nearly unique ability to safely attack the head allowing all those flanking or indirect resources time to complete their jobs.

For those claiming the AT's just make others stand around while they work, AT's are not intended to directly support the ground pounder, helo's do that job much better. AT's keep the fire at bay allowing ground pounders to get up close and personal or time to get the heck out of the way of the fire when things don't go right.

Anyone who thinks this will stop with the heavy AT's better look at the other resources out there, the helo's safety record might be looked at, certainly more ff are killed in helo's than engines, and the helo fleet isn't exactly full of spring chickens. Air ops by their nature are more hazardous than ground ops. This year AT's, next year no SJ's and rotor heads? I wouldn't wait for the agency spokespeople to speak up for these programs.

The agencies should have been honest and upfront, the grounding of the AT fleet is going to cost money and acreage and there is nothing out there that can do the job of a heavy AT. Money is needed now to outfit a modern purpose built fleet of AT's or the public needs to accept larger fires and losses in the interface. It looks to me like years and years of neglecting to tell the public what it is that the USFS, BLM, NPS, F&WS, BIA and the other ABC's of federal wildland fire I am leaving out has come home to roost, nobody seems to care because the government is telling them it doesn't matter.

Fedfire

We posted this already, but here it is again for those that missed it. Also check the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Ab.

> So I guess having been in the presence makes you an A&P, structural engineer and all around expert on aircraft.........HMMMMMMM???

Well, if you are going to claim that I am not in a position to have the opinion that they are unsafe I would like to know how YOU or NMAirBear are in the position to claim they ARE safe. Perhaps I am mistaken and one of you are a structural engineer. But unless that is the case, I would have to say that we are in the same position -- having to fall back from our own opinions onto those of the experts.

So far, the experts (the NTSB) have deemed them unsafe (not a surprise since a study in the early 90's said this was coming). So I ask you: what puts you in a position to claim they are safe? I'm not saying that EVERY heavy tanker is unsafe, but I think we definitely need some new machinery if we are going to be putting people on them and flying them over the public as well as our firefighters. (Have you been on one of those things? And sorry if you don't like having them referred to in that way, but its not like they are sensitive about it.) I recently read a letter written by a family member of a tanker pilot who died in a crash thanking us for taking that step to keep our people safe. Now I ask you, how can you tell those people that we have done the wrong thing? Learn to live without for the time being.

E,
I liked your post. Let's move on and do what we can. And I sincerely hope that we do NOT bring back contracts for planes that have been deemed unsafe BY THE NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION BOARD!!! Let's get some new equipment in there or at least ones deemed worthy of flight by the FAA. Till then-we'll do the best we can without them.

Be safe everyone,
OD

“The solution is not to get rid of airtankers; they are a safe, efficient, and cost effective tool that has been proven almost worldwide. Like every tool, their use is not without risks. The solution is to break the chain (swiss cheese anyone?) of risk that we can control by intervention in the faulty process of procurement and/or maintenance of non-airworthy airtankers. New airtankers (long term) or at least new inspection procedures of what we have (short term, these things are still getting older) is the answer. Either will require intervention by the congress and will cost money. Also, the USFS/DOI will have to change contract requirements to favor awarding of contracts to operators with newer aircraft.”

The aerial firefighting pilots of these aircraft and the companies that employ them are and have been committed to supporting us the ground fighter in our annual battle with wildfire. Talk to any of the pilots….They will tell you (as you should have learned in Basic Aviation class) that they are there to SUPPORT the ground troops. That support at times comes in the form of rapid initial attack, holding fires in check, reducing BTU’s and buying time for ground firefighters to get the final lines in.

Obviously the airtankers have been glamorized over the years (as have aviation resources during wartime) and the publics’ perception is often that the retardant from the airtankers is the final blow to putting raging wildfires to bed. This is not the fault of the Airtanker Pilots or airtanker industry. This is our own poor information dissemination at work.

Please take the time to think of how many times you were supported by airtankers allowing us the ground folks to “hook the fire” and or save improvements and valuable natural resources.

NMAirBear,

I sincerely hope you are correct in your post that the heavy fleet will be retuning to us soon. My toolbox is not the same with half of it idle.

Yactak

If you want to add the CDF (Type 1) Teams to your Team Page, here is the southern Line Up
Team 6 George Haines San Benito/Monterey
Team 7 Gary Marshal Tulare
Team 8 Rick Henson San Diego
Team 9 Pat Kerrigan Madera-Mariposa
Team 10 Lee Winton Amador Eldorado

FC180

Thanks, I always scramble to find those to list on the fires of the season page. Ab.

HUTCH

Scan and send in the photos - history, ya know... Ab.

Jason

Would everyone please check the Type I IIMT page and the Type II IIMT page? I have updated them to the best of my knowledge without resorting to phone calls. I think I have good info on the Type I Teams, but the Type II Teams except for R5, R1, R2 and R3 are more questionable. For example, I haven't changed ICs for the Washington and Oregon teams without websites and Alaska teams without websites.

Thanks very much for help in updating. These pages are always available via the Links page under Federal.

Ab.

My opinion is that there is no FS grand conspiracy to put AT companies out of business.

From everything I've read and heard, the WO was as blown away by the NTSB report as any of us.
Given the issues of legal liability and not having any way to do inspections, all the FS could do is cancel
contracts. (NTSB evidently didn't buy the Sandia Lab inspections or didn't know of them, WHAT?)

There's another chronology on the AT message board that lists some of the relationships between NTSB,
FAA and FS that helps clarify some of this...

Mellie

This massive fire is the direct result of the lack of heavy airtanker availability when it was under 400 acres. We have snuffed many similar fires over the years on the Lincoln in similar weather conditions when heavies were available.

How would a dozer work in your neck of the woods? A strike team of dozers could put in some serious line or at least ring the ranches that the fire is heading for. Think of the rehab work for the crews this fall. Maybe even think about using the new dozer line as fire breaks for next year. Just try to think outside the box.

crips triggers
shooter

NorCal Tom

Narrowband
Narrowband Exceptions

The mention of audio cutting out when a wideband
analog signal is fed into a digital radio operating in
narrow band analog, is caused by the way the Motorola
digital audio processing chip handles analog sound
levels.

When the chip receives a audio signal greater than it
is designed for it, it distorts badly and/or audio
shuts down completely. It has a really fast recovery
time after shutting off but sounds terrible.

For your info, all digital radio manufacturers have to
use a Motorola chip as they own patents on it and are
the only company that makes it. Motorola also has a
strong lobbying force in Congress. Big corporations in
bed with the government again?

COMT

Captain of The Ghost Ship.

"Is this new Digital Narrowband radio craze, which I assume is pushed by Homeland Security, going to cause problems with the C (Communications) in LCES?"

The digital narrowband craze was not created by the Dept. of Homeland Security. The FCC is requiring that we switch from wide band to narrow band. That way they can sell the frequencies in between, making more money while creating more radio spectrum. Many agencies have decided on their own to also switch over from analog to digital. There are many advantages to digital, which I won't go into here.

As long as a digital-narrowband radio has been approved by the NWCG, all Communications Unit Leaders should be able to program it at the Incident Base. If someone shows up with a radio the techs have never heard of, it's unlikely they will be able to program it. If the radio is field-programmable, the radio user should be trained to program it before they arrive at an incident. If it's not field programmable, it should not be brought to a large interagency incident. Don't depend on a radio tech being available to reprogram your radio. All new radios should be (better be) backward compatible, able to operate in analog OR digital mode.

But another question is interoperability between the radio frequencies commonly and traditionally used at large incidents and the new 800 MHz trunking system radios that many states and local organizations are transitioning to, such as Colorado, South Dakota, and many agencies in California. These are NOT compatible, and unless a person carries 2-3 radios, people can't talk to each other on emergency incidents. This is where the C in LCES is disrespected. The reviews after the 2003 fires in Southern California pointed this out very eloquently.

Jackson

Unless I'm mistaken there have been about 40 AT related deaths since 1990.
I'd have to look up the MTDC/NWCG reports or on the AT Board. It may be
a few more than 40. On average that's more than 2.5 deaths per yr since 1990.

If you count all AT pilots and crew flying, you can come up with the percentage
that 2.5 is of the AT total. 200 is the number that represents the same percentage of
groundpounders. I didn't write down the total groundpounder numbers. I also
didn't record the total AT (pilots and crew) numbers. They must be out there
somewhere. I'll ask around.

NorCal Tom

I heard one statistic that made me cringe. 2 1/2 AT people die per year. If that was
translated into groundpounder deaths, it would be 200 groundpounders per year.
Unacceptable!

NorCal Tom

-We are screwed, really screwed, by the recent fell swoop grounding of heavy airtankers (ok canceling of contracts). Everybody needs to be really aware of the safety issues that face us now that we have one less very important tool in the shed. We are already seeing a different approach (i.e. confine, contain) to initial attack here in New Mexico and I am not convinced that it is safer for firefighters or anybody in the longer term. SEATs do not do the job of heavy airtankers in timber and the heavy helos and their dipsites are just too far away in most IA cases. Let us hope that there will somehow be a positive outcome from what right now appears to be a totally WRONG DECISION!!!

Just saw this post and wanted to express a thought or 2 on it. Air tankers are just one of many tools that we have in our collective tool box. One less tool in the package will only mean that we have less photo ops on the line and more time to work. Our fires will continue to grow large and make the news. Crews will still work long hours for little praise. But on the bright side it gets us out in the field and out of the office. Sounds like a good year to have your seat base manager task book done.

crisp triggers

shooter

_________________

A late but heartfelt best wishes to Mellie, glad to see you up and 'kicking'!

"May the wind always be at your back."

Much Love,

BB

While I'm on behind the scenes fire people, has anyone forgotten about the combined effort & importance of admin, dispatchers, mechanics, timekeepers, etc. ?? We need them all.

< confused - why is it so important what color or size of that buggy you rode in on? when trees are torching & the wind is blowing, aren't turf wars a waste of effort?
as the Zebra said: Rumors can be dangerous things.

River

Good timing MJ, see above post. Ab.

Mellie,
I've been away at S 430 all week without my laptop. Missed the news about you until just now. Glad to hear all went well, and wish you a speedy recovery from the surgery.
Vicki, I'll be calling to sign up for the "52".

Old Fire Guy

Rumors can be dangerous things.

The Novato Firefighter (he has a name- Steve Rucker) was on a Type 3 Engine, as part of a Type 3 Strike Team, from an agency that had (just retired) a member of a Fed Type 2 IMT who regularly teaches S-234 (Firing Techniques). My agency and his train together regularly, including in firing operations and structure protection evolutions. And they respond to a fair number of wildland fires. The personnel involved were/are qualified to be there.

He was wearing all of his safety gear, was not carrying a chain saw (as reported by the Coroner and then retracted), and they had prepared for the possiblity of being overrun, including deploying hoselines and setting up the structure as a shelter.

I was also in the area the day of the burnover, and I visited the area afterwards. My agency assisted in the investigation leading to the "Green Sheet", as well as contributing to the various studies presented to the Blue Ribbon Commission.

Bluezebra

Bear, Ramble, ecc1, Steve, and I, are most pleased <excited puppy wiggling/ peeing on the floor> to read this post! Ab.

Folks, without meaning to pick on so cal forestry tech, it may be useful to use your spell checker before submitting messages. Correct spelling helps clear communications, promotes credibility, and increases the accuracy of the language translators for our readers in over 100 foreign countries. Ab.

Green Sheet: http://www.wildlandfire.com/green_sheet/cedar/cedar.htm

Maps: http://www.wildlandfire.com/green_sheet/cedar/cedar-maps.pdf

_____________________________

Ab, is there a place our wildland firefighter community can send "Get Well" cards and flowers to in support of Mellie?
Ken

_____________________________

NorCal FFs, thanks for the cheers.

Ab, Next they'll be asking where to send flowers!!?? If they do, tell them to make a donation to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation instead and Vicki will let me know of any scribbled note someone would like to send. I'd be much obliged. I''m told the hospital won't allow flowers. Last time they made me throw up. <chuckle> Firenwater! It was worth the horrified look on the nurses faces. Hopefully I'll be home again in 4 days or so.

Well, off we go. Boy is it early! Thanks to all who are... how did it go? Praying/wishing/hoping/meditating/cheering for me. I feel the "good vibes".
Mellie

I received the above message from Mellie at 0430 today. She will be undergoing a serious surgery this morning at around 0730. The surgery is not considered life threatening, but will change the ways she's used to doing things. Please keep her in mind today, during recovery, and as she faces new challenges. We will be anxiously waiting here for her next message. I will post new information as I receive it. God Bless you Mellie and speed your recovery. Ab.

While on a fire, avoid South-facing or SW-facing slopes after noon, if you don't know why, check out Doug Campbell's fire signature method.

Hard-nocks and Near-misses

Check the Classifieds page for a link. Ab.

We're praying/hoping/wishing for the best for you tomorrow. We love you.

More than one NorCal FF

Consider joining the AD Firefighter Assn. They have lots of answers, even to some questions you never dreamed of. Link on the Classifieds page. Ab.

• Convection - the transfer of heat by the circulation of the heated parts of a gas.
• Conduction - the transfer of heat between two parts of a stationary system caused by a
  heat difference between the parts.
• Radiation - the process by which energy is radiated as particles or waves by one body
  through an intervening medium or space and absorbed by another body.

When I taught classes in thermal curtain construction, I told students that the mylar layer reduced
heat loss by radiation by bouncing heat back, the quilted layer reduced loss by conduction by
making it hard for heat to get through and the sidebars that snapped over the Roman shade curtain
edges reduced convective heat loss as they didn't allow heat flow circles along the window face as
warm air rose and cold air fell. S-190 only talks (primarily) about convection and radiation, but
having your gloves on inside your fire shelter would be critical to minimizing conductive heat.

Geez, talking about this stuff gives me the willies. At least it's raining like hell here on the norcal
coast, so this feels a bit academic.

The Enterprise Team was doing some good work with interesting and useful fire-monitoring apparatus,
but needed more scientific definition of their studies to "sell" them to the funding entities. In my opinion
the question of safety zone (size needed under what conditions) and the knowledge of how a fire front
moves in and passes through are good topics for study. Much of science starts with observation of
how something acts under a variety of conditions. Then it progresses to the interesting questions.

Y'all BE SAFE! Sorry about the firefighter who died.

Mellie

-MJ

You're right, there is not a lot of literature or training on exact sizes with tape measures in perfect conditions. The logic is that radiant heat can kill you long before actual flame touches you -- it is also well known that the gases from columns and radiant will compromise your airway, therefore when you can't breath you sometimes will "go Dip$#^*." I think that the thirty mile fire and rock outcroppings said it all!

I guess my point is that we can use policies & standard operating procedures but remember we use them only as a guide line and the best tool that any firefighter can carry "young & old " is that round thing that sits on your shoulders. You guys can look in books all day with calculators and other means of how calculate and predict, but experience will prevail every time - just don't hand the experienced fireman a pencil! USE YOUR HEAD!

FF SoCaLi

We had fun, early mornings with coffee and the river, a bald eagle, great laughs and tritip from the barbi. Ab.

1. Fire order #4 tells us to establish escape routes and safety zones.
2. We have research that tells how big a safety zone you need based on radiant heat (4 times flame height).
3. There is no available research that tells us the effect of convective heat on the size of safety zone needed.
4. There is almost always some kind of convective heat involved in an entrapment. Therefore,
5. There is no way to know for sure if you're in compliance with fire order #4 - you have to make an estimate based on experience. And
6. If you estimate wrong it will be YOUR FAULT.

Am I missing something, or is management putting us in a no-win situation?
It's hard to believe they haven't thought this through.

BCT

I did a quickie job on some non-R5 fed and state announcements for experienced firefighters that came in and put them up on the Jobs page. BLM and NPS are still hiring in R5. Contractors are still hiring as well. Ab.

"Oversight hearing on firefighting preparedness: Are we ready for the 2004 Wildfire Season?"

..."Our firefighters on the ground and in the air deserve the safest conditions we can provide."...

...."As the severity of fire seasons has increased, budget problems and concerns have grown proportionally. One problem, in particular, is making it very difficult for the agencies to adequately fund key programs. Each year, due to the increase of large expensive fires, suppression money has become exhausted long before the wildfire season is over. This has forced the Forest Service to borrow money from other non-firefighting accounts. Consequently, serious harm has been done to the continuity and viability of Forest Service programs, including hazardous fuels reduction, essentially turning the Forest Service into the Fire Service.".....

..."Fortunately, thanks to Budget Chairmen Nussle and Nickles, language is currently included in the conference on the FY 2005 Budget Resolution that addresses this issue. If enacted, it will make available up to an additional $500 million in supplemental appropriations for fire suppression activities for FY 2004 through FY 2006. This would give the Forest Service enough flexibility to fight fires while also continuing—rather than halting or suspending—important projects. Furthermore, it would also allow the implementation of HFRA, which will help to reduce and prevent catastrophic wildfire."...

O.K.... now my view..... Federal Wildland Firefighters, for the most part, never wanted to be the "fire service", but they are firefighters. They do want to classified properly, be paid appropriately and be given comparable benefits. Every federal employee knows that they will NEVER be paid anything close to their counterparts, but atleast calculate our pay in a way that makes the Federal land management agencies the EMPLOYERS OF CHOICE and not the "puppy mill" recruiting factory for local, state, and DoD firefighting agencies....

The FWFSA has met with countless numbers of congressionals and agency officials and explained how HR 2963 will actually SAVE the government money.... Congress is listening and supporting... too bad that a key "green agency" can't offer support due to it's "group think" mentality... I guess they'll just go along for the ride again..... wasting hard earned taxpayer money... time and time again.

At the D.C. meetings, the "green agency" actually tilted their ignorance card..... they said that the "administration" didn't support HR 2963.... maybe they didn't notice that many of the authors and co-sponsors of HR 2963 were the very ones that got the Healthy Forests Restoration Act passed....

They recognized a problem... studied it...worked out the bugs... and fixed it with bi-partisan support...... That's exactly what they are doing on HR 2963.... It's bi-partisan and meant to save the federal government money while providing adequate benefits to federal employees... there has been alot of give and take behind the scenes..... The final product is good for the government, good for the federal employee, and good for the taxpayer. WIN-WIN.

Lobotomy

Backburnfs

The new WO (Office of Safety & Occupational Health) Intranet site is up and
running. http://fsweb.wo.fs.fed.us/OSOH/ (Accessible only within the FS.)

There's a new program for donating to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. The webpages went up today. I think (and hope) this fundraising effort is about to "go gunneysack". It's called the 52 CLUB and is based on the idea that everyone can afford a dollar a week(52 weeks in a year) to help fellow firefighters and their families in times of unthinkable crisis. One $52 check from one person (or 52 - $1 checks) can do some good. Many $52 checks from lots of people can do a WHOLE LOT OF GOOD.

I sent in my check. I just noticed on the donor's list that Ab did too for wildlandfire.com. Hey, FWFSA, get your members to join the $52 club! I sent a check - I like a stamp and an envelope. PayPal is good, but they take their cut. 'Sides, I love the mental image of all the checks piling up on the Director's desk. <heh> Vicki Minor, the Founder and Director of the Foundation deserves to have a year when she doesn't have to stay awake nights wondering if there will be enough money to take care of folks. And she deserves to have the actual pile too! For those who don't know, she waw a need and began this creation in 1994 after Storm King. It's now almost 10 years. She's kept it going and it's been getting better since then. Yeah, she deserves to see the Foundation really FLY.

Vicki says to remind you "Whatever the Foundation does for any person, we tell that person that it comes from every wildland firefighter out there." To injured firefighters and firefighter families who need a hug and some practical support, that's a whole lot of hugging from our community.

I won't tell all the stories or share all the details, go to the website for that. But one structural department firefighter from near Storm King came into the foundation as the website was being created, he was touched, he signed up and pledged to sign up 51 more structural firefighters who want to support their wildland brothers and sisters.

Now there's a concept! Tell your coworkers, tell your crewmates and teammates. Ask your boss to create a way to deduct it from your first fire paycheck (or your second one if you really need those boots). Offer some challenges to friends, family and competitors! Get kids in your community involved. Service organizations. Bump up! Let's make this something big that provides a cushion for the Foundation and for our community!

Mellie (Thanks Vicki, Thanks Original Ab, I love you Dudes! and I am so thankful for this firefighting community.)

If the enemy commander has 10 possible courses of action, but the friendly commander,
restricted by the senior commander, has only one course of action available, the enemy
clearly has the advantage. But, if the friendly forces senior commander, through a minimally
constraining intent statement, empowers his subordinates, they can adapt to any situation
they confront.

It seems to me that some of what Shattuck has to say about "intent = purpose + method + endstate" is relevant to how we might change our way of fighting wildland fire, especially in light of all the rules, regs and checklists that have come out of recent tragic incidents. Narrowly defined rules and checklists -- to the degree that they constrain other logical options that have integrity in a moment-by-moment changing environment -- could be dangerous. I am thinking in particular of the 3+ day IA socal fires of last fall.

Mellie

Not to make light of the loss of property and life... Do we realize how lucky we were that things did not go even worse than they did??? Are we ready for the fires to come this season?

PC vs reality? Not surprising to me since firefighters' lives often depend on the members of their crew. Ab.

Courage And Valor Award: Captain Doug McDonald (with the story of the burnover)

Doug McDonald, Novato Fire Department CA repeatedly attempted to save Steve Rucker's life on the the Cedar Fire, San Diego Co, 10/29/03

The award is made for a singular act of extraordinary courage and valor in the line of duty, however it recognizes all firefighters for their daily commitment to the core fire service values and to life safety.

Novato Firefighter

I added it to the Awards Page. Ab.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on the cancellation of the airtankers.
If you haven't looked at what is being said about the ATs around the West and across the US, check the fire news page. Here's one good one:

AZ Governor leads fight to restore air tankers
www.azcentral.com

Many western states that have little water, huge distances of open and rugged land, and also lots of WUI (wildland urban interface) need airtankers in their firefighting toolbox. California may need them less than some states. Helitankers that have greater limits on range than ATs just won't work as well in AZ, CO, MT as in CA. We firefighters need to be asking ourselves "what tools do firefighters across the US need and how can we have that?"

The FS and BLM "powers that be" did not make the ATs go away: a long past history of economy and mindset did. The NTSB handed down the verdict which shocked the hell out of the WO. Basically they offered the FS one solution and one solution only, which was to dump the AT tool from the toolbox. It's the NTSB report that should be questioned. In my opinion, it is out of the FS hands -- unless you can convince the lawyers of the FS (and the President) that either more crashes are not inevitable following the after action "fixes" of last season or that huge lawsuits and public outcry wouldn't follow on the heels of another AT crash.

A prime question someone should be asking:
How valid are the NTSB's conclusions about inspections and airworthiness? After looking at more than one company's inspection program, might they reconsider and not make the FS responsible for incredibly costly inspections?

For more discussion check the AT message board. Ab.

its dodgy dog world out there. the only thing i can say is politic and be resourceful.
get your name out there and work at it. you need to aggressive. dont be afraid to
pick up the phone and call people. but be careful, you can talk your way out of a job.

ff cnf

The Lassen National Park is looking for seasonal temp firefighters for those who want a summer job.

Ab.

We're meeting today in Vallejo with managers from all the other CA forests to sort out who gets hired on which forest.

Before I begin with the details:
First) all of us in FS fire are for a diverse work force of fully qualified, professional firefighters. We are for using outreach and then hiring quality within the applicant pool. My objections to this year's hiring fiasco are that the current process is very late and disruptive. It should have happened in January. Having to go through this now puts our people at risk. We already are having fire starts around the state and we don't even have our force already hired and into training.

Second) it is and has been clear from Blackwell's behavior and statements that if a certain hiring "mix" does not occur, it will not be approved. This is tantamount to his saying that A QUOTA WILL BE ENFORCED. His attitude toward us is evident; he hasn't even come to the meetings today. His staff is being very careful not to use the Q word. It's clear that they are working to set up the FS legal disclaimer, although Blackwell's actions and messages are clearly yelling QUOTA.

The details:
We received the applicant pool list on our forest on Friday May 7. It included names of those who requested our forest as their first preference for the place they'd like to work as well as those who said they would go anywhere in CA.

We had two days had to choose and contact people. Our folks had to work over the weekend. We began with those who we had outreached with and then went to the list of several hundred that came to us out of the state outreach drive from the cities. All forests did not get the same number of applicants. The Cleveland, for ex had 1150 on their list. We sorted through our applications and began calling. All applicants on our list spoke English.

My forest rose to the occasion with many people working hard and on the weekend to get thru the applicants. I came to this Vallejo meeting with a list of people equal to what we need. Some of those were also on some other forests' lists. I am told there are 633 duplicate apps among forests. This is more than the number of people we're hiring state-wide. When we have had overlaps of people that more than one forest wants, we honor the applicant's first choice which helps with housing and retention. In several cases where the applicant has said they will go anywhere we have called them to get them to choose.

This hiring process will stay open through May 15.

It is still up in the air as to whether new hires will be trained centrally. That would make sense so forests that have already done their training modules would not be disrupted too much more.

Housing is one real challenge. We have not had money allocated for housing in the past years. We'll be hard pressed to find places to stay for the new people who are coming from out of the area. This is likely to affect retention.

It's clear that we're moving toward a permanent fire workforce. That's good, BUT... Temps that make it through the academy are assured an 18 /8 appointment with higher pay and benefits than a temp's pay. (18/8 is a permanent 9 month appointment.) The increasing tours will make a more steady workforce available for All Risk incidents. Unfortunately, this process is not occurring in light of the good job we've been doing in fire and the budget effects of this process have not been addressed. What I am concerned about is that future budget allocation will not take into account that we will now have more people holding permanent jobs as a condition of their Academy Training. The money to pay for those more expensive jobs has not yet been allocated through Congress. If it is not allocated, the money will come out of existing budget which will result in a net loss to fund firefighting resources.

NorCal Tom

Managers, do not hire anyone that you have not talked with to determine their ability to speak and understand ENGLISH.

Mellie, I have wondered about the legality of Blackwell's directives. Worse than losing jobs, I worry about loosing lives.

Tahoe Terrie

It is my opinion that Regional 5 Forester Jack Blackwell is simply a high level, micromanaging bean counter who does not understand either how UN-SAFE his QUOTA demands are, how ILLEGAL his QUOTA demands are or how his QUOTA demands will result in yet again another FLEECING OF AMERICA by the Forest Service under the guise of hiring diversity.

This is where we are:
Hiring outreach has now been completed with the job fairs that were held. What I have learned from a number of sources is that this has resulted in 1,700 applicants for the 400 seasonal temporary positions whose hiring was held up by the hiring freeze. Of these1,700, approximately 50 % were minorities of some sort (oh wait, that includes female applicants who no longer can be counted).

Fire Managers, I suggest the following:
Regardless of what Blackwell demands, stick to your turbojets. The standard operating procedure is that you do outreach, then from the pool of eligible applicants, you make selections based on MERIT alone. We have legal recourse to not deviate from that SOP even if we don't reach Blackwell's QUOTA. We also have a moral obligation to choose and train the BEST candidates and to not choose anyone who cannot meet a minimum standard.

Appoint people to the academy based on ability, not ethnicity, race or gender. If ALL fire managers do this no one will loose their job over not following Blackwell's ill-advised demands.

I am in the early stages of planning a letter writing campaign directed toward all levels of governments within the state. Emails to those I organize for such a letter writing campaign will go out soon. I also have a call in to a lawyer friend to find out exactly what we can say and do on the legal front. Stay tuned.

Thanks for your good work keeping firefighters and the public safe.

Mellie

TG! average age of "large airtankers is 48 years with some more than 60 years old." Don't those facts wake everyone up? METAL FATIGUE alone, without a retrofit for additional stressful air miles!

Ab, et al. please address the likelihood of smokejumpers catching backwoods fires early (and how that may effect others), advise/help all WWF folk without a scaring the bejeasus out of the new-to-fire people (regardless of their involvement).

SAFE SEASON ALL,

River

P.S. gossip, like rumor/supposition/conjecture, etc is NOT a good tool

Interesting observation about the YOU being deleted on the latest list of 13 watchouts. We
should strive to get every firefighter to take the fire orders and watchouts PERSONALLY.

Strider

"One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small,
And the pills your mother gives you don't do anything at all,
Go ask Alice, when she's 10 feet tall..."

No more Jefferson Airplane?

Large Airtanker Contract Termination --
Key Points - 5/10/04

The Fire Management leaders of the agencies created a short-term strategy for 2004 that will incorporate increased pre-positioning of resources, additional helicopters and helitankers, additional Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs) and prioritization of resources to be protected.

Large airtankers are primarily used for initial attack and structure protection support. While other aviation assets will be used to offset the lack of airtankers, homeowners and communities should take action today to reduce their fire danger by reducing fuels and using the FIREWISE concepts.

This decision may result in a reduced amount of retardant used in firefighting. During the past 3 years, airtankers delivered about 20% of all the suppressant (retardant, foam and water) used on fires. However, due to the condition of the fleet, we reduced the amount of retardant load by weight carried by these airtankers. For the past decade, the amount of retardant delivered by airtankers has been trending downwards, while helicopter suppressant delivery is increasing.

In 2003, the agencies paid nearly 30 million dollars for airtankers during the fire season. With the termination of the contract, the cost of paying contract airtanker companies for preparing to fulfill the contract, including maintenance, inspections, training and overhead will be about 10 million dollars.

Any unspent dollars associated with the termination of the contract will be used to offset the cost of additional firefighting resources to mitigate the reduction in airtankers. Additions to the aerial fleet could include added Single Engine Airtankers (SEATs), helitankers, and Type 1, 2, and 3, helicopters.

Airtanker bases will continue to be an operating facility for Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs), helicopters, smokejumpers and aerial supervision operations.

As needed, the agencies will use the eight National Guard and Air Force Reserve C-130 aircraft equipped with the Modular Airborne Firefighting Systems (MAFFS) because they are documented airworthy by the military.

Equipment and personnel will be prepositioned in areas of expected fire activity based on predictive services information. The National Interagency Coordination Center (NICC) will control the assignments of all the additional aerial assets brought on contract to offset the reduction in aerial resources by the airtanker contract termination.

Not every initial attack effort gets air support. Firefighters are trained to improvise and adapt to the conditions on the ground, and to the resources available to fight fire. The 10 Standard Fire Orders, guide firefighting efforts at all times and in all situations. By following these tenets, and by mitigating the 18 Watch Out Situations, firefighters are able to operate safely with or without air support.
_____________________________

Airworthiness
Questions and Answers
May 5, 2004

1. What is an airworthiness certificate?
An airworthiness certificate is an FAA document that grants authorization to operate a civil aircraft in flight. There are two different classifications of FAA airworthiness certificates, Standard Airworthiness Certificate and Special Airworthiness Certificate.

2. What is the definition of airworthiness?
According to FAA Order 8130.2, airworthiness means that:
a. The aircraft conforms to its type design, and;
b. It is in a condition for safe flight.
Courts have ruled that flyability should not be equated with airworthiness.

3. What is a Restricted Airworthiness Certificate?
A Restricted Airworthiness Certificate is a Special Airworthiness Certificate limited to purposes identified in the applicable type design. These special purpose operations include: agricultural, forest and wildlife conservation, aerial surveying, patrolling, weather control, aerial advertising, and any other operations specified by the Administrator.

4. Do public aircraft require an airworthiness certificate?
No.

5. What is a type certificate?
A certificate issued by the FAA to a manufacturer meeting the airworthiness requirements of the applicable Federal Aviation Regulations for an aircraft, aircraft engine, appliance, or propeller. The Forest Service holds three airtanker type certificates for the P3-A, C-130A, and P2V-5 aircraft.

6. Who is responsible for the airworthiness of and aircraft?
The pilot in command is ultimately responsible for the airworthiness of his aircraft. However, maintenance personnel, the aircraft owner and operator, the FAA, and the aircraft manufacturer all have critical roles in ensuring the aircraft's airworthiness.

BOISE, IDAHO, MAY 10, 2004 – The U.S.D.A. Forest Service and the Department of the Interior announced today that they are terminating the contract for 33 large airtankers due to concerns over the airworthiness of the aircraft and public safety. The large fixed-wing airtankers were used in wildland firefighting primarily for initial attack and structure protection support.

The decision comes in response to findings and recommendations contained in the April 23, 2004, National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) report on three previous airtanker accidents. One critical NTSB finding states “it was apparent that no effective mechanism currently exists to ensure the continuing airworthiness of these firefighting aircraft.” The NTSB report also concluded that the Forest Service and the Department of the Interior were responsible for ensuring the safety of firefighting aircraft. Private companies operate the 33 airtankers under a contract with the federal agencies during the fire season.

Since most of the large airtankers were designed and used for military operations before their acquisition by contract companies, the NTSB report also indicated that a complete history of maintenance and inspection records are not available for many of them. This lack of documentation makes it impossible to guarantee airworthiness, according to the NTSB. The average age of the large airtankers is 48 years with some more than 60 years old.

“Safety is a core value of the firefighting community and it is non-negotiable,” said Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth. “To continue to use these contract large airtankers when no mechanism exists to guarantee their airworthiness presents an unacceptable level of risk to the aviators, the firefighters on the ground and the communities we serve.”

“We take the findings and recommendations made by NTSB very seriously.” said Director Clarke, “Chief Bosworth and I are committed to working with other federal agencies, our state partners, Congress, industry, and the public to understand and adjust to this change while continuing to provide safe and effective fire management and suppression."

The large airtankers are one of many tools that firefighters use, but wildland fires are managed and suppressed on the ground, not from the air. During any year, thousands of wildland fires are suppressed on initial attack without the benefit of air support.

The agencies developed a strategy for the 2004 firefighting season to supplement aerial resources with other available aircraft such as large helicopters and helitankers, single engine airtankers (SEATS), and military C-130 aircraft equipped with the Modular Airborne Firefighting System (MAFFS). A strategy for long-term aviation asset management and acquisitions of newer aircraft based on available funding will be developed by the leadership of the Forest Service and the DOI agencies.

“Clearly the days of operating older aircraft of unknown airworthiness for firefighting operations are over,” said Chief Bosworth. “We are grateful to the pilots, crews, and operators of these aircraft, who have dedicated themselves to firefighting efforts over the decades. We have the greatest fire management and suppression program in the world, and we will continue to protect lives, property and our nation’s natural resources.”

For further information, contact Rose Davis, Forest Service Fire and Aviation Management Public Affairs at (208) 387-5437.

From multiple sources, including but not limited to BLM Girl, Ironwing, Lobotomy, MS, TC, Todd, AL, GJ, John.
Tahoe Terrie and NorCal Tom, you were right, I'm sorry to say. Condolences. Ab.

as you might not know the cleveland nf is staffed and ready for action -- all 22 engines -- and to reply to the staffing question, bdu cdf sends a first alarm dispatch to the san bernardino nf with 5 engines and 2 crews with aircraft on order from south ops. the cleveland will be ready for nation wide dispatch come wednesday so see you out there.

stay safe

ff cnf trabuco ranger dist.

Thanks for the info and welcome to theysaid. Ab.

There are forests, grasslands, and other national land holdings. Firefighting on those federal lands comes under the auspices of FS, NPS, BLM, FWS. There are people who lease cabins or grazing land within the national public lands that must follow rules for keeping their leased properties fire safe (like in the National Forests surrounding Tucson AZ and above Los Angeles CA for example). That was a new one for me, long term cabin leases on federal lands.

There are private properties that are inholdings or other adjoining interface properties that might be SRA or county or municipal responsibilities. Technically if there's a residence, does that come under state or some other non-fed auspice? Wildland firefighters in the FS and BLM generally do not fight structure fires? But if a fire threatens the national forest, the FS might respond? If a vehicle fire threatens the national forest the FS might respond? But otherwise not? And this is changing as we become All Risk? I see FS firefighters along Hwy 299 and Hwy 96 responding to vehicle accidents. The woods aren't burning or at risk of burning.

There are also tribal lands and some tribes have their own fire departments and also rely on federal help through agreements (Memoranda of Understanding, MOUs). I know the Hoopa Tribe for example has a fire dept and also calls on the Forest Service for help. Just trying to get this all straight in my head. Does every group having responsibility know what lands/properties they are responsible for and who to call for help?

I presume that most adjoining response areas have MOUs to guide their interactions. And if a fire crosses many jurisdictional boundaries, all the entities affected have to be involved in the decision making? If so, no wonder fighting a large suppression fire can get so complex and cost so much. And I assume this and fire size is part of what defines the "complexity" of the incident that moves the fire into a Type I IMT category from a Type II?

How might the eastern and western US jurisdictions differ from each other, or do they? Any jurisdictional issues that shout "Watchout"? This train of thought gives me a clue as to why fighting fire at the end of the Big Bar Complex in 1999 and the socal fires last fall might have been so political. Lots of Chiefs to talk with. Politics, psychology, turf! Regular tangle of laundry?

Thanks to the teams for taking all that on. I wouldn't want the job...

Strange where my mind goes with my cup of coffee in the morning. Just popped the clothes in the washer...

FWFSA folks, Good job in Washington! Couldn't make it to chat last night, but sounds like you were VERY successful!

Mellie

We know how tough it is to combine mothering with fire. Hats off to you! Thanks for hanging in there. MOMs, your service and love does not go unrecognized.

The Abs.

Check into the Wildfire Hazard Center, right there at UCSB:

www.icess.ucsb.edu/resac/resac.html

another TC

Hey Longboard, your email got eaten by my spam filter. I only caught it on the swallow, too late, could you please resend? Lucky you had a relevant topic "for theysaid" in the subject line or I never would have known. Ab.

Resident

It helps to have residents that do what they can to take care of their own property. Makes our job easier when the flames approach. Ab.

Minnesota has a fire Red Lake 313, 2560 acres, 90% contained that is burning near Red Lake.
When it was going it was running with 15-20 foot flame lengths at the head in hardwoods and
grass with aspen islands. Aerial resources (BIA SEAT, MN DNR air attack plane, P2V tanker)
in combination with tracked vehicles made the difference. With all the heavy dried fuels and lack
of access into the wetlands, I'm wondering what we're going to do if the lg air tankers disappear.
Maybe more SEATS will be the way for us to go.

Firechaser

R5 SoCal

<Big SNIP, Content copied to it's own page.>

FC180

Readers, to see this important dialogue between FC180 and Mr. Gladics, please use the following link.
FC180 & Mr. Gladics
I created a new page for this information to save space and download time on this page for those uninterested in the topic. However, I consider it mandatory reading for all who are affected. I urge others to use their own experiences and arguments to communicate and continue to enlighten those making recommendations and decisions. Thanks much FC180 for sharing this and demonstrating the importance of intelligent communication! Original Ab.

I wrote the following article in response to the Barker/Orr article in today's Idaho Statesman. I believe that the public is being misled by the media in this matter, only making the grief that the families/friends/supporters suffer at the release of such news that much more difficult.

I was dismayed at the front page article about the disciplinary actions for fire bosses in the deaths of Heath and Allen. Orr and Barker wrote that Heath and Allen were "left by their bosses in the path of the Cramer Fire". While I do not dispute the findings of the investigative team that was adept in their pursuit of what transpired on July 22, 2003, it is clear to me that Orr and Barker have chosen to disregard one fact: That safety start where the rubber meets the road. In other words, each individual firefighter have been trained to follow 10 fire orders and 18 watchout situations (not to mention an LCES safety checklist and numerous other live and classroom training scenarios) and recognize the conditions and hazards of the job.

I had worked with Allen on at least two incidents and I was aware that he was no fire fledgling (as opposed to 3 out of 4 fatalities in 2001's Thirty Mile Fire), but a professional and well-trained rappeller capable of applying such training to an incident such as the Cramer Fire. While I believe that there has to be some disciplinary actions handed down to those making the 'final call' in such a tragedy, I think it is important to recognize that Allen and Heath had some degree of control given their time 'on-scene' and the necessity in their pre-selection of applicable escape routes and safety zones (agency training dictates the need for these prior to fire suppression when on scene, consult the LCES checklist in any Fire Operations Guide). I have no doubt that this article gives the general public the erroneous perception that Allen and Heath were 'hung out to dry' by management, when in reality it is a symbiosis of both logistical and operational duties that makes a suppression action tick and is very difficult to point a finger in just one direction.

Six Forest Service workers face discipline

"The U.S. Forest Service has proposed disciplining six employees over their actions during a wildfire that killed two firefighters last year. The proposed actions range from suspension to firing, Regional Forester Jack Troyer said."

"The Federal agencies recognize that shelters have been purchased
commercially by private contractors through distributors. If a distributor
or private contractor chooses to have their shelter(s) retrofitted they may
do so through the manufacturer; however contractors will be allowed to carry
the unretrofitted M-2002 Fire Shelter on Federal incidents."

I want the fire community to know that The Supply Cache is committed to
retrofitting shelters we have sold at no cost to the customer. If you have
purchased a fire shelter from us and it needs retro-fitting please call us
as soon as possible. We need to get these shelters through the process as
soon as possible. However, in a conversation I had today with one of the
manufacturers, I found out the Government has still not determined exactly
what the retro-fit process will be. So no shelters are being retro-fitted
yet. New shelters are being manufactured with the changes already, but the
retro-fit process has not been finalized. The manufacturers are going to do
them first come, first served, so the sooner you get in line the quicker you
will get them back.

Thank you.

Jim Felix
President, The Supply Cache, Inc
1-800-839-0821

Anyone have an update on the Hispanic hiring in R5?

I've posted some more of Brain A.'s photos: take a look at Helicopters 15, Equipment 7, Airtanker 10, and Airtanker 11 photo pages. Other contributors, I still have photos to do... Cedar Fire, supertanker, dozer photos. Thanks for the contributions. Ab.

18 Watchout Situations

1. Fire not scouted and sized up. ß violates Fire order # 2
2. In country not seen in daylight.
3. Safety zones and escape routes not identified. ß violates Fire order # 4
4. Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior. ß violates Fire order # 3
5. Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
6. Instructions and assignments not clear.
7. No communication link with crewmembers/supervisors. ß violates Fire order # 7
8. Constructing line without safe anchor point.
9. Building fireline downhill with fire below.
10. Attempting frontal assault on fire.
11. Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
12. Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can. ß violates Fire order # 5
13. On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
14. Weather is getting hotter and drier.
15. Wind increases and/or changes direction.
16. Getting frequent spot fires across line.
17. Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
18. Taking a nap near the fire line.

ORIGINAL FIRE ORDERS
1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2. Know what your fire is doing at all times. Observe personally and use scouts
3. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
4. Have escape routes and safety zones for everyone, and make them known.
5. Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
6. Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
7. Maintain prompt communication with your forces, your supervisor and adjoining forces.
8. Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
9. Maintain control of your forces at all times.
10. Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first.

I could make a case for at least two more of the “watch” outs being violations, but I think the point is clear. Most of the added watchouts to the original 13 are violations [ to be fair, a couple of the originals are too]. We have fixed the changes made in the fire orders. Now lets see if we can straighten out the watchouts too.

JSJ

Download it after work or early in the morning please. It's moderately large, 852 K. Ab.

Thanks, Jack

I made an Eagle Fire photo page for immediate viewing. (I did this really fast and it's not linked to the photo or description pages yet.) Ab.

www.billingsgazette.com

Last night's report called for smokejumpers and type 2 handcrews although I think type 1s
would be better because of the rough terrain. We have ponderosa with lots of dead and down
and basically no resources on hand when it started - lightning. That's changing. Stay tuned.

DJ

Welcome DJ and thanks for the info. Ab.

DSF, which got left off?

Todd

18 Watchout Situations

1. Fire not scouted and sized up.
2. In country not seen in daylight.
3. Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
4. Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
5. Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
6. Instructions and assignments not clear.
7. No communication link with crewmembers/supervisors.
8. Constructing line without safe anchor point.
9. Building fireline downhill with fire below.
10. Attempting frontal assault on fire.
11. Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
12. Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
13. On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
14. Weather is getting hotter and drier.
15. Wind increases and/or changes direction.
16. Getting frequent spot fires across line.
17. Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
18. Taking a nap near the fire line.

Please add Large Fire Map.

Sit report is up and running for all that want national fire info. Good R3 fire info from the R3 GACC.

All these fire sit report and map links can be found on the LINKS page under news for those who don't know their way around wildlandfire.com. Also, check the Fire NEWS page. Ab.

DSF

On the topic of air tankers. Terrie, I've been thinking on this a few days now and have come to some (sad) conclusions.

Aging ATs, not designed for fighting fire, kill 2.3 pilots per year and have for some years. These are not acceptable losses. Blue Ribbon says so. You know it, we all think so. The AT program costs too much in lives. To save lives, we would have to modernize. It will take boukoo sums of money to do that even if we could move toward it gradually.

But there's no time. I think the NTSB has painted us into a quick corner with their report. Look at their findings and recommendations. They say the FS has to inspect planes. The FS has neither enough time, enough expertise, nor lots of money to do that. If the NTSB had given the direction to the FAA, maybe they could have arranged inspections and pulled it off with their engineers, they work in aviation. But not the FS and BLM. I mean, come on, we manage the forests and fire, not planes. We could as soon go into rocket science.

To modernize the AT industry, if we could, would cost millions. As much as I like having a lot of tools to choose from, some firefighting tools cost much more than others. Perhaps putting more dollars into Type 2 helos, jumpers, hotshots, engines, etc would be money better spent than throwing more money at aging and falling apart ATs that would probably continue to kill pilots even if we did inspect. I know, hard to imagine no airtankers, this sounds terrible to me too. But we're in a real pickle with the NTSB report. And don't say we inspected last year. We did, but this is a whole new level.

Unfortunately, I can see this getting political. Because of TV, we've oversold the air program to the public and to congress and we love that red stuff falling where we need it on the evening news. Say our public gets scared, senators bend to pressure, step in and say we have to keep the program and we try to do inspections, throw lots of money at it, do it as very best we can. What happens the next time a pilot dies? (And they will.) Boy, we're screwed then. Call out the super lawyers. Fend off the public outcry. Any deaths are unacceptable. Deaths should be. The legal fallout alone would be horrible. There's just no solution short of ending it.

I just don't see the AT program continuing for long. Even the supertanker seems unlikely. Mud at $10 a gallon or whatever it will cost? I doubt it. (I don't really know how much it might cost, but probably far too much.)

This is depressing, I like those big ships; reassuring sounds and sights; but I wouldn't be surprised if the memo or statement that comes out from the WO in the next few days comes to the same conclusions I did. Does anyone see this going any differently? Tahoe Terrie you started this thread, you already gone south?

NorCal Tom

This is the first time I have been on this site. It is great! Pictures are cool along with everything else
on the site. Well I will be sending some pictures to this site real soon from last year and a few years
back. Everyone have a good season, and I will see yah out in the woods real soon.

GW

Welcome to theysaid. Ab.

thank you very much

Fighting fire in Canada is more likely than in the US. There are quite a few hoops to jump through to get a wildland firefighting job here if you are not a citizen or a person with a green card. Anyone have the details? Ab.

Determination of a worker's exposure to airborne carbon monoxide is made using an Ecolyzer direct reading field instrument. This instrument is capable of detecting carbon monoxide concentrations between 0 and 600 ppm. Several types of detector tubes are available to screen for the presence of carbon monoxide; these tubes have a reported limit of detection of 0.5 ppm. This equipment and the ranges of carbon monoxide detection are described in the OSHA Computerized Information System [OSHA 1994].

www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/carbonmonoxide/recognition.html

RR

north

This quote "If you can see the incident commander’s ass instead of his face, he is in the wrong place." Great quote for several reasons! [And the author had the rep of being a Firefighter's firefighter, knew when to read someone the BOOK when they screwed up or slacked off, like Studebaker does.] The reasons I like it...

1) Right now blaming management is the goin and blowin, top-down "accountability message" from the WO as though the ic's ass should be in view on every maneuver (sp?). Not possible, not desirable, not delegating correctly. REMFs have a different job to do.

2) When So Cali blows up again, it will be an impossibility to see the ic's face everywhere at once even if the ic's feel they have to be there to cover their a$$. My guess is theyre going to be forced to set some intentions and trust us to take care of our people. The 10 and 18 cover work-rest intent, youre right on with that. More rules dont necessarily save lives. Rules can even put lives at risk. We need to get back to safety basics and away from checklists. Practice safety.

My 2 cents. Things are starting to RIP. Be SAFE.

Cleveland Chuck, long time lurker

"Fire prevention is suppression in its purest form." — John Tait

The Preventer

Ab added it.

Caught CNN Lou Dobs last night. He did a blurb on the fires. Had exciting pics of the fires last fall
and a comment by a CDF rep who said fire season was beginning a month early. More flames of
current fires. Lou ended up saying we were better off now than last year. Whats up with that? The
CA budget crunch for CDF, the FS Hispanic quotas postponing hiring & training of 500 firefighters, the
probs with cutting out beetlekill, the lack of agreement or a ff plan in San Diego Co. I don't get where
the "we're better off now" came from? Any of the readers here handing out that BULL to the press???
The press should be telling people to clear their defensible space & that firefighters will not be able to
save most of their asses er assets if we have fires like last fall. Tell the public about homes that are
keepers vs losers. & about communities that are keepers vs losers. Doesn't take a brain surgeon
just some responsible reporting.

Sorry Ab, for the asses, People TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER. No deaths for stoopid interface
homes.

Another Q: how are the teams planning to deal with it when we have to break the letter of the laws that
go with all the abatements? Another 3-5 days of IA? You bet your booties if we have another big
conflagration down south. We are staggering under the bureaucracy of rules and regs. We need
relief from the work-rest. Can't we be trusted to make good decisions? Quality rest is more impt
than quantity everyone knows that. Seems to me its covered by "Fight Fire Aggressively but Provide
for Safety First".

I'm shutting up now. Rogerdoger over and out.

Strider

Keeping on the same discussion track. I agree with you that improving firefighters appointments to 18/8 or PFT is something that all the agencies should look at. OFG, this is an administrative issue and not a legislative issue. Each agency has the opportunity to address recruitment and retention issues, find the fixes as you have mentioned, and then submit a budget to congress to cover those ideas. This is just the regular operation of Executive Branch funding processes.

When it comes to the legislative side, Agencies cannot lobby congress. Individual employees and members of associations can. That's where HR 2963 (Portal to Portal) comes in. The FWFSA listened to its members and worked with Congress to craft legislation that the members of the FWFSA wanted. It was introduced with bi-partisan support. Field hearings are in the near future, probably somewhere in Arizona.

Old Fire Guy, I welcomed your attendance in the FireChat last night even though I was a little rude and coarse with you. It won't happen again. I should have realized you were only speaking your honest opinions. We both have the same goals in improving recruitment and retention. We just have different ideas on how to do it.

Lobotomy

Contract County Guy

Ab's willing to put people in touch.

Recently I was down in Sacramento for a State Fire Marshal Training class at the old
McClellan AFB. As I was driving by I saw the new Forest Service Wildland Training
Center (which looks nice) and on the backside I saw about 20 old FS engines parked
in the back lot. Does anyone know if those are to be sold, or being used for training?
They were mostly Model 42s.

MOC4546

Thanks Hunter. Lots of training going on. Trainees, and others, jot down the good quotes (funny, serious, inspirational, etc) from your instructors for our Quotes to Live By list. Ab.

Regarding your comments to my Air Tanker post.........
The NTSB report recommends exactly what the Blue Ribbon Panel recommended regarding the Airtanker Fleet. Funny thing is that the DOI and DoA FS have already accomplished the recommendation........Remember last year...Sandia Lab inspections???????? The process is in place to accomplish what the NTSB report is re-stating from the BRP report.

The political games have begun..... There is a faction of the Aviation Leadership in Washington who seem bent on getting rid of the current heavy air tanker fleet even though the inspections were accomplished.......

Gonna get interesting...

Yactak

In regards to the chat.... how about 7:30 or 8:00 p.m. pacific time?

Lobotomy

I don't wan't a longer appointment. If you force me to work a longer appointment than 13/13,
I'll leave. I just want to be paid the same way as other firefighters while I work. I know I'll
always be paid less, I just want to be paid the same way.

I am a seasonal firefighter because it offsets my winter work season. I love to ski and work
as a ski patrol member. I also love wildland firefighting.

Also, if it's a bad ski season, I can collect unemployment from the state andit's pretty close
to my "normal" pay check. I know that sounds bad.... but it's how the system is set up.
Our pay is so low that "unemployment" pays the same as base time.

I know of teachers and professors who are wildland firefighters during the summer. They
are against longer appointments also.

I think several years ago, the FWFSA had some pretty cool benefits lined up for seasonal
firefighters. They were told "NO" that they could not make these benefits available because
they weren't government sanctioned.

Pretty bad news when the "gov" can't cooperate with a group trying to make things better
for us seasonals.

SkiBum

I understand the reasoning for portal to portal pay for federal firefighters, I wouldn't mind being paid portal to portal myself, but you said something in your last reply here that I would love to hear some clarification on. That would be "the over-reliance on price-gouging, for-profit contractors" part of your comments. I admit I haven't been able to find many "Cost Comparisons" between Agency and Contract Resources to evaluate the differences in cost, but the one I did find (on this site), seems to clearly show that at least in some cases, contract resources may provide an honest savings to the Government. If the private contract community can offer the same level of equipment and trained personnel, at considerably less expense to the agency than it would cost them to maintain and staff that equipment themselves in-house, why would anybody say contractors were "price -gouging"? Contractors have just as much to consider when figuring cost into their bids before a fire season, as the agencies do, between maintenance, general liability insurance, vehicle insurance workers compensation insurance (which I would almost be willing to bet is charged at a much higher rate than the Federal Government pays to cover their employees that do the same work).

In closing I guess what I want to say is that while there may be "some" private contractors out there that do indeed "price -gouge", for the most part the average contractor out in the workforce right now is simply trying to provide a necessary service, for a reasonable and competitive price.

John

I appreciate the discussion on compensation. I need to clarify something from my last posting: This groundpounder supports equitable pay for wildland firefighters no matter who they are. I am a pragmatist, though, which usually doesn't get me very many free drinks.

As a wildland firefighter, I want to be compensated fairly. But I am also a homeowner and a taxpayer deeply involved in my community. There is a bottom to the public pocket. Government only spends money, it doesn't create it. The private sector has to be creating income to pay taxes. No revenue--either property, sales, duties or income, no government. There comes a point of diminishing returns when the goose (taxpayers) can't enough golden eggs (tax revenue) to keep up.

Sure, I would like to make $100,000 in overtime putting out wildfires. Then again, why not $200,000 and I'll forget about work for a while? Gee, let's all demand $200 per hour plus overtime, get paid 24 hours a day and while we're at it rack up two months of paid vacation to Hawaii! Any Economics 101 student knows, though, that a balance must be struck between equitable public employee compensation, fiscal responsibility and public accountability. There are states in the U.S. teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. Among other cost-saving measures, they are revisiting public employee labor rules and compensation packages as they attempt to bring revenue in line with outlays. For many in public service, the days of generous new labor contracts are history. I see that in my own town where the IAFF is in for a tough fight with the fire commissioners for their next contract. The commissioners will be looking at every penny. In the past, the IAFF local pretty much had a blank check.

We are doing ourselves a disservice by believing that we can model and replicate some of the more generous state and municipal compensation packages (which are becoming endangered species in their own right). We can be spoiled children and demand everything because the kid down the street has it (whose parents are nearly bankrupt), or cagey professionals who strategically measure our actions with political and fiscal reality.

One of the Chickens

Everyone, there are some fine photos sent in by Brain A., primarily of helicopters and helirappllers, but they also include some equipment photos and a SEAT photo. To see those, take a look at Helicopters 14, Equipment 7, and Airtanker 10 photo pages. Other contributors, I'm working on your photos... Cedar Fire, supertanker, dozer photos. Thanks. Thanks also to the NJ firefighter for sending the historical info on the several memorials to NJ wildland firefighters who died. I'm working on that too. Ab.

This post is virtually unrelated to the conversation strings currently ongoing on They Said.

First, I will say that the vast majority of contacts - both within the agencies and throughout the private sector - I have made through this venue have played a phenomenal role in the ground we have gained to develop and implement National Standards for Commercial Timber Fallers working on the fireline. Those of you who have lent a hand...in terms of advice, support and facilitated networking, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. There are some solid people here working toward bettering the working conditions of folks in a variety of realms. You are to be commended.

Unfortunately, there are also folks utilizing this venue to "mine for targets." Meaning - information posted here, and the identities of those posters have been used, (and continue to be used) as ammunition...to further personal agenda's not necessarily linked to bettering working conditions for anyone but the individual doing the "mining."

I have received my share of abusive and vengeful email correspondence related to my work in the National Standards for fallers arena. All of them have been sent under the "cloak of anonymity," which I personally don't take lightly. Having the background of an investigative reporter, it doesn't take long to trace the origin. Which leads me to this piece of advice..."No communication, however covertly it is transmitted, or through whatever conduit it is sent, is anonymous." Every piece of communication can be tracked. Take this into consideration even in this venue. Using monikers accomplishes little but providing amusement in observing what we call ourselves.

I was very active on They Said over a year ago. I came onto the site to express frustration at the current state of fallers on the fireline. Many of you helped us form strategies, and make connections that have played an invaluable role in helping us make huge progress over the past year. I stopped participating at the point where the contractor bashing started, fueled by what I saw as frustration over the "outsourcing" debate. I withdrew because, as a contractor, I didn't feel there was anything I could, or should say in that regard (especially when I was just at the point where I was trying very hard to understand all of the nuances), and connecting fallers with that debate was, in my opinion, inappropriate. I also began to realize I didn't agree with the whole philosophy of using monikers to cloak identity...and embarked on my own investigation to see if I truly could decipher "who was who" and track emails that had been sent to me without clear identification. I could and did. Others do the same.

So, to those of you who use this site in the way I believe it was intended, bravo to you and thank you for the efforts you make to understand the issues affecting the firefighting workforce and your attempts to do something about them. To those of you who mine for information and for victims...karma will get you folks. I, for one, have enough "umph" left in my "karma bag" to do something about it.

Everyone, be safe this summer and watch out after yourselves AND one another. It takes both.

Ciao,
Shari Downhill
aka Fire Momma

Original Ab’s Response:

We here at WLF are happy your personal and organizational goals benefited from your participation here in our humble venue. It means to us that you received information. Information exchange is the reason this site was created, it has remained our primary purpose and we plan on keeping it that way.

We appreciate the kudos you gave some of our readers and our venue, but please direct the “umph” in your karma bag somewhere else. You are encouraged to continue sending in your thoughts and comments just as everyone else is. It doesn’t mean we’ll post it, just as we don’t post everything we get, but we’ll read it!

Hi Yactac and DP,
Tahoe Terrie suggested loss of the ATs due to the NTSB revised findings some days ago. In html (for quicker download) HERE's what the NTSB says the DoI and DoA need to do. I didn't include the FDA recommendations on this page. I agree that these recommendations are 180 degrees different than anything the DOI and DOA have done in the past and an insurmountable task to accomplish before fire season. Cost, expertise, lead time??? I hate to say it, but it does look like the writing is on the wall. Good question about what this means for inspections of helicopters. Terrie also asked what about the jumper ships? Ab.