"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
June, 2004
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 6/30 |
I know it's late in the year, but does anyone know of a Helicopter
Manager
class which might be scheduled for the near future. I know there are
several scheduled for this winter, but thought I'd check with the
ultimate
wildland fire resource before I gave up for one this season!
Thanks - R2FFr |
| 6/30 |
Re: EERA resources
Where sections of agency land are surrounded by mainly private or state
land, VFDs and locals on EERAs are great resources. With the 24 (or 12)
hours of mutual aid, many small fires are put out before they get big
and become multi-agency. It's one of those deals where we help each
other out -- a lot of times engines in our south zone are closer to the
high fire activity areas of private land, and we'll I/A, a lot of times
as a threat to agency land, until a county engine can get on scene and
vice versa. In an area often off the National radar, we take all the
resources we can get.
Can't find much in the news on the hot shot crew involved in the
accident, but from a look at the NRCC sit it's the <snip>. Best
wishes to the crew and regards from Eastern Montana to the RVer who lost
a loved one.
Stay safe.
--Winslet
We need to <snip> until family are contacted and info is more
officially released. This is a very hard time for those involved. Our
thoughts and prayers are with family, friends and the as yet unnamed
crew. Ab. |
| 6/30 |
More info and a video clip on the accident. Our prayers are with them.
Vehicle carrying hotshot crew and RV collide
Tahoe Terrie |
| 6/30 |
Islander,
Before I get to far into this, let me say, I have been serving with a
small rural 100% volunteer fire department, with no tax based district
status, as Fire Chief, and Assistant Chief since 1998. I can fully
understand your point about small departments needing any potential
income they can acquire. I know most actual fire districts, especially
at the county level, have an abundance of training in the area of
structure firefighting, haz-mat, automobile fires, extrication, etc etc,
but I have found that most of the city/rural fire departments (at least
in my county), have no more than the basic S-130/190 if even that for
wildland fire training. Also most people on this website seem to feel
the work capacity test is a good thing, that should be required of
anybody on the fireline, yet I have never heard of a city/rural
department that has adopted the packtest as a minimum standard, before
sending their people out on an assignment. Last season, I was working on
a wildland fire that was in the county fire department's jurisdiction,
and had the county department's IC (the city's lead training officer
which I have known for 10 years) tell me he was cycling his people thru
daily while the private contractors were there (after the first day
there were no State or Fed wildland personnel on this fire), not to make
sure we were doing our job, but rather so his guys could follow us
around and learn, because they were lost when it comes to wildland
fires.
This is my 3rd fire season as a private contractor in R-6 (only 1 engine
so far), and I have worked for another well known contractor for 6 years
before heading out on my own. I have seen the level of training required
by the EERAs, and the know first hand the level of training and
experience that is available in a growing number of reputable private
companies. When I look at the wildland fire training and experience
between a city department engine's personnel, and a private contractor's
engine personnel, I believe that the private contractor is more
qualified to be on the line, and is also much more effective in most
cases. I also know many SRBs running engines for private contractors
that meet or exceed FS standards for their own people that have gained
much more large fire experience, than someone that could have had they
started working for a Gov Agency at the same time, due to not being
stuck in a rotation schedule waiting for an assignment.
A small rural fire department's resources may be less expensive on a
Daily basis, but if you figure in the quality of work performed, and in
many cases the quality of the equipment, I think it would even out,
considering a good contract hand crew or engine crew (yes there are a
few around) could most likely accomplish much more work in a day than a
typical small town rural fire department's crew. The fire may be
contained quicker using the private crews, reducing the overall cost to
suppress the fire.
John |
| 6/30 |
Ab, I just heard about the Hotshot crew that was in the accident this
morning coming off the Davenport fire.
My condolences to the family of the RV'er that was killed. Our prayers
are with them. Hopes and
prayers are also with the rest of those that were involved, may their
injuries be minimum and recovery
speedy.
ember and co-worker |
| 6/30 |
>From SWCC, at 1100 Mountain...
ABZ... A hotshot crew departing the Davenport Fire was involved in a
vehicle accident
with an RV near Magdalena, NM, this morning. One person in the RV was
fatality
injured. Several hotshot crew members were injured and have been
transported to
hospitals in Socorro and Albuquerque, NM. A news release will be issued
shortly and
will be posted at that time. |
| 6/30 |
Re: Braking Wind
Local resources are not normally dispatched by GACCs. Locals are
generally dispatched by local dispatch centers at a county level,
including to Federal and State land. This does fall under mutual aid
response as what is referred to as the “closest forces” principle. It is
not fire chasing, and it has been a principle of wildfire response since
long before there were contract engines. Nor was the intent of Congress
to supplant those local agencies – the use of private contractors in
many of those cases would impact the ability to provide basic fire
response within their communities. For example, I live on the edge of a
600 acre piece of Federal land. Should I hold back my engines while I
wait 5 or 6 hours for a private contractor to respond, assuming of
course that they aren’t already committed elsewhere?
Local agencies need to make their engines available 365 days a year.
Firefighters from those agencies don’t get to spend the winter in
Hawaii, they don’t get to pick and choose from the assignments they get
offered. They are less expensive than contractors, and generally far
better trained. Yes, many of them use EERAs and in the cases of many of
the smaller rural agencies that is a significant source of the funding
for their firefighting equipment. If you feel that that money, tax
money, should be going into your pocket instead of maintaining an
essential public service, I would have to respectfully disagree.
Islander |
| 6/30 |
A quick question to any AD folks out there...
Has anyone ever signed up for and AD at a fire location during a fire?
I'm on an AD crew in ABQ, and people from all around us are getting sent
the Willow Fire, but we're just sitting around on our behinds, even
though we've gotten about an inch of rain in the last few days. I'm
trying to find a way to get on an AD crew in Payson, but can't dig
through the phone numbers enough to find who I need to talk to. Just
curious if anyone has ever employed this kind of work strategy before.
Be safe!
Big_R |
| 6/30 |
Braking Wind and Siskiyou,
The sad truth is the lack of fire this early part of
the season is affecting everyone, albeit some more
significantly than others. Bottomline on this issue
is choices. Some chose to join contracting outfits,
others maybe had fewer options about working for the
agencies and took a job with the private sector. Im
aware that it will directly affect the pocketbook of
some of the companies that provide these private
resources but like any business its supply and demand.
As for the engine, water tenders and handcrews all I
can say is hope for a better middle and end to the
season. Getting angry and bitter only increases the
divisions that already exist among the public and
private sector in our industry. Afterall, we cant
blame the lack of fire on each other so we might as
well refrain from any attacks until we are all hard at
work once again
AC |
| 6/30 |
Just a few minor thoughts...
Braking,
In my area, when the VFD or paid departments respond to new starts, it's
generally with the expressed consent of the federal agencies. With the
lack of large tanker support, everyone in my area is a little gun-shy on
letting small fires go big. And on the competition with the private
sector, the VDF and Paid Departments were there long before you, so get
over it. They have been responding throughout the years protecting their
communities, and when I hear the whining from the contractors about
competition, it makes my temporary whining-induced tourettes syndrome
act up. Generally speaking, and I only can talk about my area, through
mutual aid agreements, the first 12 to 24 hours are no charge to the
responsible agency, so initial attack is inexpensive to the taxpayer.
And if an agency decides to keep IA resources, then there is set cost
limits through the agreements between agencies. Now, please do not take
what I'm going to say the wrong way, but it should be incumbent to
Federal, State, and Local agencies to try to keeps cost down as long as
it doesn't compromise Firefighter safety. So when I see a Federal,
State, or Local Engine or Tender, I feel like my taxes are going to be
used effectively, and hopefully efficiently. I absolutely have no
problem with contractors, and have worked with some of the finest people
who were contractors, but they should be the last called up on fires
after a regions Federal, State and Local Department resources are
exhausted. >phew!< Yep, now I know I've done it Ab, after spouting my
anti-free commerce rhetoric, I will now retreat to my armored teepee and
wait for the inevitable attacks on my opinion....sigh...oh well, there
will always beer and Doritos....
Beigefoot
Best check the beer cooler for boobytraps. Ab. |
| 6/30 |
HI Ab,
Lots of fire activity in Regions 3, 4 and 5 over the last few days...
but not too many Engine or Tender contractors are working. Anyone have
any thoughts on this? It looks like we all (private Engine and Tender
firms) ought to weld the wings of the grounded C130 air tankers to our
equipment, if we want to work this season... In Northern Cal. and Nevada
small, local fire departments are showing up to new starts without being
dispatched by area GACCs and then billing out their time to the Feds and
States...is this fire chasing or is this considered another use of
mutual aid agreements? If the Private Sector started chasing fires, in
this manner, we would have our contracts terminated. I thought the
Federal government was supposed to use more private resources (as
mandated by Federal law and Congress), additionally many of these small
departments are using EERAs, a direct competition with the Private
Sector. If you ( the Private Sector Vendors) with engines and tenders,
want to work this season, you better start making yourself more visible.
Contact your GACCs, your Contracting Officers, your elected officials
and the Press or you might as well tie a rope on your trucks and hook 'em
to your boat. Contacting your Contracting Associations and asking for
their help might also help.
The Braking Wind |
| 6/30 |
Nomad,
Would you like a little cheese with your wine?
You said;
"those of us stuck way up here in the nowhere'sville part of
North Zone are
just stuck here until something happens in our neck of the woods"
"Not only
is this breaking my bank account, I'm thinking that it's going to
cause some
serious problems as far as retention & turnover for the crews in
North Zone"
Reality check.
There are many contractors, crews and equipment, just over the border
who
did not make a dime last year and nothing so far this year. When we are
sitting here maintaining our 2 million dollar insurance, equipment,
crews,
training, truck inspections, licenses, medical cards, drug screenings,
and
the list goes on, all of which is mandated, the feds do not pay us a
dime.
We are relegated to just one forest and will not be dispatched to
adjacent
forests until all of their resources have been dispatched. We like to
eat
also. You on the other hand have a predictable paycheck and benefits
that
just keep rolling on in. You have it good and just don't know it. If you
want to see just how tough it can be, try the private sector where
advancement only comes with skills upgrades and performance, not
seniority
or screwing up.
Enough of my rant but this just pushed me over the edge.
Siskiyou |
| 6/30 |
Re the 52 Club
Readers, if you are hesitant because you prefer anonymity (want your
name kept confidential), Vickie can do that! my suggestion is call
directly or mail your donation with a note stating how you'd like to be
listed, or not listed - I & many others did so months ago! (bet she'd
use your moniker).
"52 a year out of the thousands earned is bootlace and incidentals
money", or someone's bar tab for one weekend!
"I have heard several say that to offer thanks or otherwise publicly
endorse the Foundation would possibly be viewed as a conflict of
interest by their (federal) employer." that's an incredible stretch of
anyone's imagination!
be safe out there kids: pray you or your loved ones will never need to
depend on a check from Wildland Firefighter Foundation. doubters: take a
good look at that website, and who were first on the Club 52 wagon!
best wishes for a safer season all!
R5PITA |
| 6/30 |
With the 4th of July coming up, I had to send this one in.......
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2004/06/28/story154464.html
Beware of unattended beer coolers!!!!! It's funny initially, but, if
true, is actually sad in the end that a wildland firefighters favorite
pastime of drinking beer is now being identified as a potential
terrorist threat....
Lobotomy
Serious stuff? Hickman sent in the same warning. I was sure it was a
joke. Ab. |
| 6/29 |
52 List Hey folks - check out the list. For such a good cause,
this page ought to
be flooded.
Remember, with over 25,000 of us alive and kicking during the summer
months
of battle, it's these members of the 52 club who are going to help YOU
when
and if something goes wrong. Let's grow this list. With only 192 people,
WE CAN DO MUCH BETTER. Please Help.
Friend of the 52's
Everyone, We do need to work on
Wildland Firefighter Foundation donations. Think of it this way...
So far this program has netted $ 9,932 (today there are 191 members at
$52 apiece). I know some have sent in more, but let's figure the
"income" this way, using the "power of one" numbers...
OK how about "expenses"? When someone dies or is injured, how much money
does the most rapid Wildland Firefighter Foundation response require?
Well, I have heard that family members are often flown to the site, and
motel, car rental, etc may be arranged. There's also $$ (often $2,500)
for family members' immediate expenses to tide them over until insurance
payments kick in... with injuries, some funds may be needed to fly the
injured firefighter home on a plane with medical capabilities... Statues
are another large expense and 14 just went out to the families of
the Storm King fallen.
So our 52 Club with less than $10,000 so far, at most will help 3 or 4
wildland firefighters this year (or just about cover the statues that
were shipped out). Unfortunately if history is our guide, it's not
enough. We need to do better. Ideally, we need to do well enough
that our director Vicki doesn't dip into her own bank account when the
money runs out toward the middle or end of the season (as she's done
since 1994 following Storm King!). Ideally, we need to get a cushion so
that support for firefighter families is paid out of the fund's
interest, not the principal. The Foundation needs to be self-sustaining.
I hope that as you receive your first checks this fire season you
remember to send some in our Foundation's direction. The Family you help
is your own. Our Foundation is a funnel of our support!
Those of you who have been helped, please speak up. I have heard
several say that to offer thanks or otherwise publicly endorse the
Foundation would possibly be viewed as a conflict of interest by their
(federal) employer. I say BS to that! As public citizens you can
honestly say you were helped if you were. First Amendment rights! Let's
get real here! We need to do better. Please tell your stories! We
want to hear them. Tell your friends and family members. Say your
thanks here or on the Foundation website. If anyone wants some editorial
help, get in touch. The Abs will help you write your story.
We're pleased to see that the number of Organizations that
have 75-100% of employees enrolled is growing.
52 Gold Club Firefighters, please suggest to your employers to
encourage their employees to join... $52 a year out of the thousands
earned is bootlace and incidentals money. Employers, we challenge you to
donate some more on top of that. You make lots of money on the back of
fire suppression. Please support the fire family. To those who do
already, many thanks!!!
Let's make this 52 Club work for ALL our sakes.
Ab. |
| 6/29 |
Great jokes guys and gals!
RR, I agree and I think the season is finally just kicking in.
As for the shelters. The safenet came from my Wildland Apprenticeship
Academy in Sacramento this past winter. It came about when we did an
"Entrapment Avoidance" class and the new shelters were brought out. They
popped it out and it ripped near the handles. When that happened an
apprentice spoke up and said he and his crew had the same problem. And
that started this whole thing....it's kind of weird seeing the change of
something so big right in front of you...
EG |
| 6/29 |
Mellie changing lightbulbs? Not in this life. From what I hear, she
brings enough light
into the room with her, there is no need for any sort of artificial
light!
Firehorse |
| 6/29 |
Hello Sammi,
The new GSA 2002M shelters are being retro fitted and being sent back
out into the field. If you are a contractor there was a letter sent out
that you can carry the un-retro fitted shelter on wildland fires.
As with any new product, recalls do happen, but keep looking on
wildlandfire.com and look for information on the new shelters.
You should be able to buy the new GSA shelters from a number of pvt
venders, and most should have them in stock right now.
Anyone who has got a chance to open a new GSA shelter in a office
setting or during training and has any thing they would like to make
everyone aware of please use the
http://safenet.nifc.gov/safenet.nsf/MainTopic?OpenForm
Stay Safe,
Randy
Storm King Mountain Technologies |
| 6/28 |
The Nomad, ... rumors are rumors.... But if you have a document that
proves your statement, I'm sure the HS community would like to see it.
Here is a list of the current HS, IHC, and RHC commitments in R-3....
Please note that most SoCal R-5 crews are sitting in place and aren't
assigned to R-3....... Maybe there is another problem with why your crew
isn't being sent off forest?... ie- certification, dispatch, or Forest
preference?
Please note the Northern and Central California crews who went out in
front of their buddies from the south!! Many SoCal crews who you are
citing are still sitting at home and also wondering why the season is so
slow....
Our local crews have nowhere near the OT or fire assignments that you
are claiming..... it looks like NICC and the GACC's are sharing the
wealth pretty good to me nationwide...... ITS BEEN A SLOW SEASON SO
FAR!!!! Slow seasons happen every once in awhile......Get over
it........ Unfortunately, every year can't be a 1000+ overtime year.....
Those of us who remeber the pre-1997 years KNOW that 400-800 hours was a
very good year. In 1985 I got 414 hours of OT (Very Busy Year) and in
1987 (Drop Dead Tired Busy Year) I had 840 hours of OT...
Nomad, if what you claim is true.. then things will change around in the
future just as they do every year...... It all works out in the
end...... Fire Seasons travel from region to region as the weather
changes.....
RR
Lassen NO-CA-PNF N/A C 6/27 AZ SEZ CNF Nuttall
Plumas NO-CA-PNF N/A C 6/27 AZ SEZ CNF Nuttall
Idaho Panhandle NR-ID-IPF N/A C 6/27 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
Chief Mountain NR-MT-BFA N/A C 6/26 NM ABZ N6S La Joya
Bitterroot NR-MT-BRF N/A C 6/25 NM ABZ CIF Davenport
Helena NR-MT-HNF N/A C 6/27 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
Lewis & Clark NR-MT-LCF N/A C 6/27 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
Lolo NR-MT-LNF N/A C 6/27 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
Bear Paw NR-MT-RBA N/A C 6/27 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
La Grande NW-OR-WWF N/A C 6/24 NM LNZ LNF Peppin
Pike RM-CO-PSF N/A C 6/24 AZ WMZ ASF Bear
Augusta SA-GA-SHD N/A C 6/27 AZ SEZ CNF Nuttall
Jackson SA-MS-JAD N/A C 6/27 AZ SEZ CNF Nuttall
Dalton SO-CA-ANF N/A C 6/22 AZ SEZ CNF Noon
Laguna SO-CA-CNF N/A C 6/25 NM ABZ CIF Davenport
Sierra SO-CA-SNF N/A C 6/22 AZ SEZ CNF Noon
Rincon SO-CA-SQF N/A C 6/26 AZ CWZ TNF Willow
Ruby Mountain WB-NV-EKD N/A C 6/24 AZ SEZ CNF Noon
|
| 6/28 |
From BP
Wildfire in Tonto
National Forest (AZ) doubles in size |
| 6/28 |
Ab and MJX There's a
"Ring of Fire" pin in addition to the purple ribbon pin. There is
also a new Ring of Fire pin representing 52 Weeks we Remember. That pin
only comes with a 52 Club membership. (We don't have a picture yet.) To
join the 52 Club, go to our website at
www.wffoundation.org or call our office at (208) 336-2996.
Our office has just moved into a new building (2049 Airport Way, Boise,
ID 83705) and we have been without phones and/or internet service for
far too long. Our sincerest apologies for any inconvenience.
Burk Minor, Public Relations
Wildland Firefighter Foundation |
| 6/28 |
How many mellies does it take to change a light bulb?
ONE she can do it alll
lol
NCBRUSH6
Good one. Ab. |
| 6/28 |
Sammi
We are getting some erroneous emails for posting about why the new fire
shelters are being recalled. Here's the memo that came out in April,
2004. The handles need to be reinforced.
http://safenet.nifc.govAb. |
| 6/28 |
Can you give me some information, relative to the Federal rules on the
retirement age for Police and Fire Chiefs and does the federal law
override
city and state charters.
Thanks
Maureen Garza
email momo39@comcast.net |
| 6/28 |
So, two vollies are stranded on a desert island. They have, between
the two of them, a beer cooler, two sixpacks, fourteen miscellaneous
knives, a salvage tarp, a pike pole, a Mark III pump, and a St.
Florian’s medal. Now, bein’ as how vollies are fairly used to doing
amazing things with nothing, they drink the beer, improvise a parabolic
reflector out of the cans, and begin trying to burn birds out of the sky
with it. This was found to be highly entertaining, but they stopped when
one of them pointed out that might hit something with T&E status and
that might jeopardize their chances for VFA/RFA funding next year. So,
they converted their parabolic reflector into a solar oven to try
toasting coconut so they could make more beer, and a solar still to make
fresh water, and maybe to make the beer into something more interesting.
While they were waiting for the still to begin producing, they converted
the beer cooler, tarp, and pike pole into a nicely functional raft,
converted the Mark III to run on coconut oil and propel the raft through
the water like a jet engine, and set off for the mainland to find more
beer. Once there, they realized that even though they had this awesome
boat, the ‘Shots were still getting all the chicks. One vollie kept
offering to show them his St. Florian’s medal, but they all though he
meant something dirty. Discouraged, the two vollies restocked on beer
and headed back to their island to wait for lightning to hit their palm
tree, and to apply for more funding.
Nerd on the Fireline (who else?) |
| 6/28 |
More: "It only takes one hotshot to install a light bulb. The hotshot
has only to hold the bulb
because the rest of the world revolves around them." LMAO!
Are you sure? what happened to the new solar powered illumination
feature recently mandated
for installation on your brightly colored helmets?
Has anyone notified the tree hangers (lawn darts or rotor heads) that
the world is revolving
around Shots this season?
Is it true, this season's new tool will be a neon hose lay dropped down
slope by the engine
slugs? something Contractors can follow within the terms of contract?
keep safe all on the firelines!
Northzone5 |
| 6/28 |
R-5 Dispatching of Crews:
So word came down from the top today that R-5 dispatch is no longer
rotating assignments between IHC crews , but instead are sending "the
nearest available unit." So all the south zone crews are going to R-3,
and those of us stuck way up here in the nowhere'sville part of North
Zone are just stuck here until something happens in our neck of the
woods.
Not only is this breaking my bank account, I'm thinking that it's going
to cause some serious problems as far as retention & turnover for the
crews in North Zone. For example, my IHC crew has been available since
mid-May & we haven't gone off forest yet. Still getting those good ol'
base pay checks. Meanwhile, crews just 4 hours south of us have gone on
3 major fire assignments already & raked in ~400hrs of OT.
I mean, in addition to morale being low in general, I really don't know
how or why anyone would return to a hotshot crew that doesn't go on
fires. I mean, seriously, there's going to be a real retention problem
if the season goes on like this. Why would you stay on one crew that is
virtually always the last one in line for fire dispatches when you could
go to another crew that is actually going to fight fire & make you some
money.
I understand on IA & stuff that you need the nearest crew, but when
you're driving to 1000+ miles and it's only a few hours difference
between crews- I mean, c'mon, share the wealth. I can understand a
certain perspective & logic that says "Hey, send the nearest crew. Duh.
Just makes sense." But when you look at the big picture, you're setting
the system up for some major inequities in the quality & experience of
trained personnel. If there becomes a distinct monetary pecking order of
Hotshot crews, then the crews at the bottom will suffer & the forest
service as a whole will suffer because a lot of good, experienced people
will not be able to afford to live on the money they make by sitting
around on base- and they will leave. There is a certain sect of the
forest service that is here not only because they love what they do but
they need the money. Sometimes, you work hard because you want it,
sometimes you work hard because you need it. And I, for one, need it bad
this season.
If anyone knows a little more about the backstory behind this policy
change or why it came about, please share. I am interested.
Sadly,
-The Nomad |
| 6/28 |
Could someone please give us an update on the "new" shelters? My guys
are still lugging
around the old ones and I get a wee bit grippy at the idea that we were
told they are ready
to go with the new ones then nothing happened. So...........
sammi |
| 6/28 |
Discussion item: Wildland fire was the cover story of Parade magazine
in Sunday's newspapers that went to millions of households across the
country. Did anyone read it? Any comments? Did this article help or
hinder wildland firefighting? I didn't get a chance to ask my urban
inlaws what they got out of it yesterday. My first reaction to the
article was whether 2 pages trying to solve all the problems would
really help, hinder, or not make any difference. The impressive thought
is that this went into millions of homes and I know my wife when we get
the Sunday paper makes a point to pull out Parade to read.
Shep |
| 6/27 |
How many rappellers would it take to change a
lightbulb?
Well, the first out initial stick of rappellers would
vie for the job with their spotter in tow or find
themselves out of proficiency on their red card. Of
course the contractors would want a stake in the
operation so that they could give their two cents
because we all know they've "seen and done more". The
Contracting Officer would have to be there as well to
oversee agency compliance or issue a "SafeCom" due to
negligence of proper methods detailed in the IHOG.
The COR would need to back up the CO, most likely
someone from the state office with gray or graying
hair driving a late model agency sedan and toting an
important looking briefcase. The region's Helicopter
Operations Specialist would have some safety
annotations as well as OSHA and DOT regs that he or
she was recently privy to during some closed door
meeting about changing every helicopter regulation and
while neglecting to inform every crew from the east to
the west coast until there was an accident.
If the lightbulb had to be changed on an incident the
helibase manager would appoint a helicopter manager
who in turn would appoint the parking tender who would
recruit his best friend from the neighboring pad. The
helicopter coordinator (HLCO) would like to see it
done so that he could approve the work to the ATGS
oversight who would show the ASGS an aerial photo who
would have a cup of coffee with the AOBD and the team
that afternoon during the biggest blow up since it was
a single tree IA weeks earlier.
AC |
| 6/27 |
It only takes one hotshot to install a light bulb. The hotshot has
only to hold the bulb because
the rest of the world revolves around them.
More
<rolling on the floor> Ab. |
| 6/27 |
From Firescribe:
Alaska fires from space |
| 6/27 |
Ab,
Just a reply to all the Hotshot Humor in the past posts. It sounds like
no shots have had any comments, probably because we are on fire working
while everyone else is wishing. Anyway I'm responding while on R&R from
a roll in R3.
"How many hotshots does it take to change a light bulb?" The answer is
None.
Shots are to busy putting in the hose lay for the engine slugs that cant
hump their hose pack up the hill.
"Two hotshots were stranded on a desert Island..." I'm guessing the
story involves the end of a 1000 hr OT season, a trip to the South
Pacific in the off season, and a lot of beer.
Hope everyone on Dalton is O.K. Just worked with those guys on the
Sedgwick fire.
Have a safe season, see you on the line.
Sandman
Ditto on the wishes for the Dalton crew. As for shot lightbulb
replies... Some of the funniest early responses were from shots. Ab. |
| 6/27 |
"How many hotshots does it take to change a lightbulb?
Sixteen. One to change the bulb and 15 more to explain in the chow line
how they did it better than a type II crew.
"How many jumpers does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. That is what hotshots are for.
"How many rapellers does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. That is what jumpers are for.
"How many engine slugs does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three, one to change it, another to find what compartment it is in this
week and a third to complain about the cost of bulbs from GSA.
"How many contractors does it take to change a lightbulb?
Not Possible. It is not in either the regional or national contract.
However, all contractors present will readily explain how private
industry "could" do it cheaper.
"How many Washington Office Personnel does it take to change a lightbulb?
After the meeting is over, six: One to change it, two others to
administer first aid, and three more to fill out the mitigation letter
cover up for managers that forgot just how tough it was to change a
light bulb in the field.
"How many CDF'ers does it take to change a lightbulb?
How many can you afford?
<HAW><HAW> |
| 6/27 |
Firewall,
I have found lots of websites that update fires daily! I would love to
share some of the most informative and (frankly, really cool) websites.
Here are some of my favorite links:
(The Geomac website has several links that I bum around on right on the
main page, so I didn't copy those here.)
http://geomac.usgs.gov/#
www.fs.fed.us/news/fire/index.shtml
Both of these websites have links to each other and to more websites
having to do with the different types of firefighting.
Take care,
Jessyka |
| 6/27 |
Southwestern Utah is burning again. Square Complex is 2 separate fires
started by lightning. It's down the road a piece from where the Utah
Hill Fire and Dammeron Complex fire burnt a week and a half ago, burning
in black brush and junipers. According to
www.utahfireinfo.gov it has burned 11,000 acres since first
reported this morning (yesterday) at 6am. Just got back from a
long day of structure protection, nothing lost so far since its not a
heavily populated area. Not sure what tomorrow brings since no one seems
quite sure where this one wants to go. Some resources were pulled off
this fire this afternoon and sent over to 2 other fires that had started
burning in the nearby area. There won't be much left in the county to
burn by summer's end at this rate...which I guess is both a good thing
and a bad thing.. depending on one's perspective.
ScuffyJ
Someone told me lots of interface in that area and 100-200 foot flame
lengths. Ab. |
| 6/27 |
To keep going with the hotshot (smokejumper, engine crew, helitack,
etc) humor as we wait for deployment... this came in from a reader:
Two hotshots were stranded on a desert island. [someone else can finish
the story]
PH |
| 6/26 |
The links for the DAILY sit report are on the
links page under news, second entry. I like the archived
reports because they're faster loading and easier to move around in than
the pdf files.Dana, thanks for the note. Glad you're using your
substantial talents and experience for Homeland
Security. Please come back here and visit us from time to time!
Phew, I'm glad the shots are recovering. Any discussion of what to do as
lightning approaches. I
remember a Flame 'n Go was killed several years ago in Utah (I think
Utah) and we had the discussion.
Be safe all!
Mellie |
| 6/26 |
NEWS RELEASE
USDA Forest Service Coronado National Forest
300 West Congress
Tucson, AZ 85701
www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Dean McAlister (520) 403-2495 Gail
Aschenbrenner (520) 670-4529
HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTERS’ NAMES RELEASED
Injured by Lightning Fighting Mt. Graham’s Noon Fire
TUCSON, AZ (June 25, 2004)
Coronado National Forest officials have released the names of the
Forest Service firefighters injured by lightning while working on the
Noon Fire on Mt. Graham yesterday.
Transported to the Mt. Graham Community Hospital in Safford yesterday
were Scott Gorman and Jeff Every, both members of the Dalton Interagency
Hotshot crew headquartered on the Angeles National Forest in southern
California. Two additional firefighters from the same crew, Travis Anway
and Brandon Burrill, also were transported later in the day and
hospitalized overnight for observation. The most serious of the injuries
appeared to be first-degree burns and numbness in the lower extremities.
All the firefighters will remain at the hospital in Safford for a
minimum of 48 hours under medical observation.
The lightning-caused Noon Fire started on the evening June 22 in
rugged terrain in the Pinaleno Mountains (Mt. Graham), about 12 air
miles southwest of Safford, Arizona. Five crews of hotshot firefighters
were working on the fireline at the 7000’ elevation level when the
fast-moving thunderstorm approached. The lightning strike thought to
have been responsible for the firefighters’ injuries was probably the
first or one of the first strikes. The injured firefighters were on or
near a rocky slope at that time, and were likely victims of the
electrical current traveling underground rather than a direct hit.
Two hotshot crews are working on the Noon Fire today, patrolling the
fireline and conducting mop-up operations
|
| 6/26 |
MH,
A lot of activity down here in Walla Walla County, some good
boomers got me up
around 5:30 this morning. The Blues were hit pretty good but
high fuel moistures with
all the early summer rain. All hurried up....now
waiting......
Anybody know of any websites that update the fire situations seven
days a week?
firewall |
| 6/26 |
We had heard that there had been 2 HotSHots from the Dalton Crew in So
Cali hit
by lightening in New Mexico, but I haven't heard anything else. Do you
have any Info
or heard anything?
Thanks,
cookie
Four hotshots were taken to two hospitals, actually two walked away
after the strike but were taken in a bit later for a checkup. Those 2
are fine. A third was held overnight for observation, and is due for
release soon. The fourth has been steadily improving and at last report
has a little numbness in one leg. Ab. |
| 6/26 |
What a wild night last night for Eastern Washington, Okanogan
County Region 6 area!
The Thunder Storm must have started 20+ fires all around me. I lost
count after a while and DNR got stretched pretty thin along with BIA.
Lots of sleepers to watch for today, high winds and more lightning
forecasted. A couple burning in the Forested DNR Land I can see from my
window still smoking this morning they did not get to last night. I was
watching trees crowning in the dark. So I think our Fire Season has
finely started up here in full force.
MH |
| 6/26 |
To anyone despairing about the ability to get a job in R5:
Hang in there! Many of the recently hired apprentices are opting out,
for many reasons. Some took a
job opportunity with out really knowing what they were getting into,
some did not realize the physical
rigors involved, others flunked the drug test, and others do not measure
up for other reasons.
My guess is R5 will continue to hire to fill in these gaps as the season
progresses.
Bad news for a consistent and well trained firefighting force, good news
for those still seeking a job.
Sign me,
WTF |
| 6/26 |
Multiple fires in several western states, not many are making
news...YET!
best wishes to the youngsters who are waiting to be hired or trained.
best wishes to everyone in the achey knees group!
best wishes for fewer headaches to all the "bosses".
*L* anyone care to debate OTC (over the counter) meds - Advil vs Aleve
or Motirin vs plain old 5 gr aspirin?
seriously, things are heating up & it may be another lengthy fire
season.
THINK SMART & STAY SAFE!
Northzone5
CNN is reporting a dangerous fire in Alaska, 90 miles of highway closed,
no working land-line telephones, |
| 6/26 |
I have heard that there is a new pin to honor the fallen wildland fire
fighters.
I have the purple ribbon but I have been told that there is another one
out
this year.
If so could you send me the information?
I'm working at SWCC and everyone is interested.
MXJThere's a "Ring of Fire" pin from the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation. There may be another pin coming out
that I don't know about. Someone from the Foundation, could you please
clarify? What pin comes with
52 Club membership? Ab. |
| 6/26 |
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced the appointments of Dale
Geldert as director
of the CA Department of Forestry and Fire Protection and Ruben Grijalva
as CA state fire
marshal.
Anyone know anything about them?
SoCal FF |
| 6/25 |
Attached is the news that the USFS will no longer be using California
Youth Authority or any other youthfull offender crews nationwide to
fight wildland fire. This also applies to volunteer fire departments and
contractors. The notice was dated 06/23/2004.
www.fs.fed.us/fire/news_info/articles/final_letter_16_17_year_olds.pdf
(pdf file)
Lobotomy |
| 6/25 |
the usfs big wig in r5 are liars and hypocrites.
oh do i seem mad oh hell yah im mad.
6 new never been on a fire in their life were just hired and at least 6
well seasoned ff were passed.
oh the seasoned vets dont meet the other qual -- hispanic.
yes i am crying over this.
i have bled and sweated forest service green for 4 years.
yah i think every white ff in r5 should file a class action suit: that
seems the only way to get hired in this outfit.
ticked off ff so zone |
| 6/25 |
Aberdeen, welcome back.... Please read my entire post before
responding... sleep on it if you must......... I appreciate your
discussions... they are informative and educational for all of us who
are interested in firefighter safety, fitness, and health.....
I apologize in advance and promise that this is my last post on the WCT
issues.... I'm getting bored with it also ... but no changes have been
made to increase firefighter safety, just excuses...... I'd hate the
Federal Agencies to be pushed into another knee jerk reaction by
regulatory agencies as they have in the past by OSHA, the FAA, and
others..... but it seems we are heading that way again by lack of
action.
Lets say.... a JHA is required by National Direction for the "Pack Test"
(attached) and it is over three years old.... and not signed by a line
officer but is required by a WCT administrator to give the test...
www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/wct/wct_index.html
Which line officer should sign it? The WO.... The Region.... The
Forest.... or the District? What happens if a line officer doesn't
agree? Does it move upwards or downwards for line officer signature? I
know of some line officers who aren't willing to sign the A JHA unless
some of the safety improvement ideas have been addressed as they were
presented on this website. Maybe a 3 year old safety document needs a
little tweaking to make it the "Best Wildland Firefighter Fitness Test
Ever".
Since this is National Direction.... The JHA should be signed by the WO
and not submitted without signature to the field as it has been for the
last three years.
Just my thoughts on the subject.... I estimate that over 90% of the
responders agreed that the WCT was the best test (AND I AGREE). Many
also said that some changes needed to be made to make the test safer
during the pre-screening (I ALSO AGREE) but NO OFFICIAL REVIEW HAS BEEN
MADE!....
Rogue Rivers
P.S. - What "if" the American Heart Association and American College of
Sports Medicine don't agree with their form being used in a test that
has killed and injured so many firefighters due to the lack of proper
pre-screening.... Pre-disposing factors not adequately defined by
internal and external agency documents of previous exposures of known
heart risks............. ie- a report also from Dr. Sharkey et all......
www.wildfirelessons.net/Library/Safety_Health/MTDC_Smoke_1997.pdf.
(pdf file)
IT'S PRETTY AMAZING THAT THE WCT AND SMOKE REPORTS SEEM TO CONTRADICT
EACH OTHER ON MANY OCCASIONS when it comes to firefighter
health.....even though they are each written by the same DR. SHARKEY. |
| 6/25 |
I came in here not knowing what to expect, a complete surprise. My
husband has been a firefighter in Illinois for a long time, he has seen
a lot but no where near what your firefighters have seen. I am
bookmarking this site for him and if you get this soon could you send me
the smoked turkey recipes? Firefighters have to know the best way!! Our
best to your best.
Thank You,
rscTry here:
www.wildlandfire.com/recipes/recipes.htm Yummmmm. Ab. |
| 6/24 |
FireBill: (How many shot crews to change a light bulb)
After the engine crew immediately turned on the
lightswitch, they soon realized the switch was in the
off position due to a short in the electrical system;
and thus creating an inferno that engulfed the entire
structure.
The forest AFMO had realized the short and had turned
the switch off, but had failed to notify the FMO
before going on the fire assignment. Thus, when the
FMO ordered the IMT for the wildfire, he (or she)
failed to brief the IMT amount the seriousness of the
situation.
The report from the investigating committee would
place all of the blame on the AFMO, while he/she was
away on another assignment.
-AXE |
| 6/24 |
I updated the
Jobs page and federal wildland firefighter job series
0462
and
0455.
Mad River Ranger District in the Six Rivers National Forest needs
Detailers:
1 GS-8 Engine Captain;
1 GS-7 Engine Operator, and
2 GS-6 Handcrew Squad Bosses.
Ab. |
| 6/24 |
You have a very awesome website. I was simply looking for fire photos
on Google and there you were. Very nice.
Teri in Alaska
Welcome, come again. Ab. |
| 6/24 |
Nomad, me thinks you addressed the topic better than most!
AB's comment about the HotShot experience is very true. (do they still
keep a "couth book"?)
Native, you made a good point & one everyone seems to overlook.
Additionally, some have forgotten that Native Peoples (and later cattle
ranchers) to better "husband" Mother Nature intentionally introduced
fire before the rains or snow.
Obviously there is a huge mix of locations, experiences, knowledge, etc
on this forum. Sometimes it's very apparent a poster has never
experienced fire in a western state's high country, and often no FF
experience without a hose lay; that makes for misunderstandings and adds
to speculation.
So, where is the Western WFF line drawn? the Great Muddy? the Great
Divide? elevation, precipitation, or vegetation? can anyone explain
where the "mid west" begins & ends? a line that separates the north from
the south on a map?
My take is it's time for regular posters to reconsider their general
geographical location & experience before addressing a true wildland
topic. dunno, maybe I'm off base... I do know many retired/moved-on
exShots rarely bother to post here!
Oliver Moore, *L* shall we expect a tale about a hungry & severely
displaced bear lumbering into a coyote camp as it followed the scent of
those forgotten candy wrappers in your backpack/pillow after your crew &
you passed out? hint: don't overlook the minute fact that you'd hiked
3+K elevation before cutting line for 24 hours! (the 90s, northzone)
Best wishes for a well paid and SAFE SEASON ALL!
R5PITA
You think those missing shots fell off the earth east of the Great
Divide or sumpin'? Ab. |
| 6/24 |
My name is Penny Paquette. I am currently working on Apprenticeship:
The Ultimate Teen Guide to be published by Scarecrow Press in 2005. The
book presents an overview of jobs that can be trained for through
apprenticeships, and I am currently working on the section on
firefighters, specifically wildland firefighters. I am looking for a
photograph of a fire crew to accompany this section and notice you have
many on your site. Would any of these photos be available for
reproduction in the book?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Penny Paquette
Apprenticeship: The Ultimate Teen Guide
Readers and photo contributors:
This request is a bit unusual in that a book is a commercial venture and
we usually give permission for non-profit use of photos. Providing a
good crew photo would benefit the wildland firefighting profession and
bring attention to the Apprenticeship Program. Does anyone have a fine
crew photo with men and women, and diverse races to offer Penny? Please
let us know. I can put you in touch with her. Also I will also see which
of the photos we have posted that might interest her and try to get
permission from the photographer.
To those who have sent in engine and air tanker and fire photos
recently, I am a bit behind on getting those up. I hope you'll bear with
me. Ab. |
| 6/24 |
Rouge Rivers,
The problem is that gender and race have to do with it! I don’t know if
your familiar with R-5, particularly South Zones new hiring but that’s
exactly how most were hired, based on race! The few firefighters that
know that they will be passed up soon by other firefighters that meet
the minimum reqs. have all said they will file a grievance but know it
probably wont help. This is happening now, not planned for future
employment but now! So the pitfalls exist.
"Firefighters are firefighters.... it's as simple as that....... Each is
judged on merit, qualifications, experience and conformance with federal
law or they shouldn't be judged at all". Sorry but its not happening in
the forests here.
FFEric |
| 6/24 |
How many hotshots does it take to change a lightbulb?
It doesn't really matter; because while the 'shots were gathered around
the crew busses debating if they should take a weather with a belt
weather kit or Kestrel, complaining that their crew name was misspelled
on the IAP, and drafting a SafeCom because there were no peanuts on the
NIFC charter jet enroute to the incident, an engine crew drove past them
and determined that the lightbulb was not actually burned out, but the
switch was merely in the off position.
*wink* *grin*
FireBill |
| 6/24 |
How does one sign on to Contract a Water Tender for fighting fires in
the BC Canada area?
I looked into the Links on the They Said site but found nothing that
really pertains to it. Sure
would like to get some work up there if they are hiring but do not know
who to contact.
Thanks, MH |
| 6/24 |
From Kelly:
Indians and FireRE: the Washington Post article on Indian
firefighters:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001958090_wildfires17.html |
| 6/24 |
What a great surprise!!
Out of the Email/TheySaid loop for only 3 days, and I come back to see
that all the
WCT issues have vanished off the TheySaid forum.
Aberdeen |
| 6/23 |
Christian:
As I understand it, within the USFS, C Faller cert process varies from
Region to Region.
It originally began on the Wallowa-Whitman NF in about 1978, (because of
a fatality the year before
on the Siskiyou NF), and two certifiers were required. One, a senior FS
faller that had been certified
as a certifier, and second; a pro cutter. Some Air Center Manager by the
name of Lee Walton was
smart enough to get it all started.
It went regional after another fatality and then from Region to Region
generally with additional fatalities
sponsoring action.
Some Regions have not required, but may be in the process of
standardizing the pro cutter certifier
position.
I realize that there are not that many quality cutters around these days
and that rounding up approved
ones is a bit costly and difficult. I would suggest that it is a very
good idea to have professional "peer"
review by specialists. This might eliminate having second/third year
firefighters C Faller rated, which
strikes me as foolish unless they had a significant logging background.
This is perhaps another area where we need to maintain our respect for
specialized skills and not quickly
advance people in a dangerous environment.
Christian; if you cut the big sticks in AK, relax. It's a hassle for you
but we need more consistency
throughout all agencies, not less.
Thanks from
Fuels Guy |
| 6/23 |
First the serious bits, then the fun stuff;
First of all, Retired LAVE, good buddy, you rolled over too fast. KC,
using violent language to threaten or intimidate is inappropriate in the
workplace. Well, inappropriate period. However, I think that many of the
violent metaphors we use for firefighting “Bludgeoning it to death”
“killing the dragon” “hunting it down and killing it”, are an important
way we make our sometimes futile jobs exciting. It’s a stress reliever
and gawd knows we need those. And the decapitation reference was cheap.
I recognize that many people are traumatized by recent events in the
outside world, but that was a stretch, and I think you are in far more
danger of making bad associations in peoples minds than LAVE was. Maybe
that association came to your mind, that’s no reason to inflict it on
everybody else.
VFD Captain; I’m not crazy…all the foam rubber and this nifty jacket
with the non-functional sleeves are just to keep me from, like, tackling
people with cigarette lighters and trying to cut line through candlelit
dinners. They only let me out when the page tone goes off, but that
doesn’t make me crazy. Oh no it doesn’t. All perfectly reasonable
explanations, whatever the nice young man who took my rhino away is
telling you…
Nerd on the Fireline |
| 6/23 |
So far over the last few days I’ve been told:
1. I have narrow views and flawed conclusions.
2. I believe I’m exempt from common decency
3. I’m scary
4. I’m a collector of a Federal pay check (ouch!)
I even had federal law quoted to me. (Including the fancy punctuation) I
realize I have a
knack for annoying people. But taking it national is a whole new level
for me.
I want to apologize for tuning you guys up. With everything we have to
deal with today no
one needs extra stuff to raise their blood pressure.
Take care,
Startree |
| 6/23 |
Looking for the t-shirt guy for east complex t-shirts.
Mary & Jason |
| 6/23 |
With the talk of wildfire being a white guy's domain,
I would like to point out that Native Americans have
been involved in wildfire before the immigrants came.
My Grandpa, my dad and me have been involved in BLM
hand crews, and it is a family tradition. It would be
interesting to see a study of why there are not more
Indians in overhead positions.
Here is a article from the Washington Post that point this out
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44698-2004Jun15.html.
For those that don't want to register to read it
here is an attachment.
(We can't post the article without violating copyright; you'll
have to register to read the whole thing. Ab.)Here are some outtakes from the article:
The federal government and western states have, in
turn, become extraordinarily dependent on Indians as
shock troops to contain forest fires. While Indians
make up only about 1 percent of the country's
population, they account for about half the
firefighters on the front lines of wildfires in the
United States, said Dale Glenmore, assistant fire
manager in Billings, Mont., for the Rocky Mountain
region of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
"It is the high unemployment," Glenmore said. "This is
a population you can tap into fairly easily."
These (the reservations) are among the poorest places
in the United States, with four in 10 residents living
below the poverty line and unemployment rarely falling
below 40 percent.
Over the past century, firefighting has become a
cultural and economic fixture of Indian life, like
hunting and fishing. It is not uncommon on many
reservations for young mothers and fathers, when the
fire call comes, to leave their children with
grandparents for the season. Grandparents tend to
understand, because they were also firefighters or
fire camp attendants.
Native GS-11 |
| 6/23 |
Mark Warnick Feature
Mark Warnick is an amazing figure of the firefighting community and his story
is one of sincere compassion for the representatives of his former career.
His countless and tireless efforts have helped to raise over $28.3 million
of used equipment for over 610 volunteer fire departments nationwide.
Mark S. Warnick, retired assistant fire chief with the Brixey and Rockbridge
Missouri Volunteer Fire Department, is a man worth knowing. After putting in
12 years of service to his Missouri home fire department, Warnick relocated
to Jackson, Michigan where he selflessly sold a majority of his possessions
and took out personal loans to satisfy his lifelong goal of helping the less
fortunate fire stations. His determination to make a difference in othe
people's lives resulted in the creation of his non-profit organization
Helping Our Own, which is headquartered in Jackson, Michigan. On June 10
2004, Warnick was honored with the STIHL National Forestry Heroism Award
presented by U.S. Secretary of Agriculture, Ann Veneman. Warnick was
presented with a plaque, monetary gift and contribution to his
organization.
The STIHL National Forestry Heroism Award was created eight year
ago in response to the Storm King Mountain Fire in Colorado, which took
the lives of 14 firefighters in 1994. This year's award reception marked the
10th anniversary of this tragedy. The award seeks to honor an individual
who works with, in or devotes extraordinary amounts of time to the forestry
industry. Nominations are open to firefighters, loggers, forest and park
rangers, or other individuals employed in the care and maintenance of our
nation's forests.
If you plan to use this story idea please let us know! Further press
releases and photos are available upon request.
Thanks!
Jaclyn Bailey
Public Relations Assistant
The Meridian Group
Jaclyn@themeridiangroup.com |
| 6/23 |
DOC In the line of duty- Smoke jumpers is an HBO (Home Box Office)
film, so they would have it in their home video library.
Coyote |
| 6/23 |
Rouge Rivers, I just called it as I saw it. The people in charge at
the time were white males, as I am a white male. Most of my superior
officers in the fire service have been white males. So I guess it is the
fault of affirmative action that I have not experienced poor leadership
from other races and the other gender (see the sword cuts both ways as I
see it). That said I have had some really good motivating, caring,
leaders in the fire service of the white male variety. I sorry if I
offended you but to me the truth is the truth and sometimes the truth is
painful!
To KC, yes, I can see that the threat of violence in the work place is
wrong and shame on ME (I have never bludgeoned anyone) I will watch my
words in the future. On the other hand isn't that what firefighting is
all about, putting out fires, or as Smokey Bear use to say "put
your camp fire out, dead out." Or maybe Smokey Bear is now
politically incorrect now, too.
Retired L.A.V.E.
This Ab thinks all wildland firefighters need to spend one season
on a hotshot crew to become "desensitized". |
| 6/23 |
Mop-Up...Article 49...Don't feed the Bears
A recent news article in Oregon warned fire fighters to change their
bathroom habits while assigned to fires in the West. Change bathroom
habits? Is there a twelve step program for this? Hi...my name is Oliver
and I potty...?
The article had quotes from a fur, fin and feather employee. It seems
this employee is under the impression that fire fighters urinate in
streams. Frankly the older I get I wouldn't call it a stream...more like
pulse...dribble and squirt but certainly not a stream.
Oh...a creek type of stream...now I understand. No ...I don't
understand. On the hundreds of fires I have been assigned to I've never
witness an in stream urination. Then again I don't make it a habit to
watch other fire fighters urinate.
The article went on to warn fire fighters against feeding bears. Is this
a problem? Three miles from the nearest road system ... a bear walks out
of the brush and you reach for a white bread and pressed turkey sandwich
and say here boy...nice bear...come here... you are a good little
bear...yes you are... Not me...I usually scream... trip the person next
to me and conduct an impromptu pack test to the road and safety.
Maybe the problem is with the food. Do the warnings on the fire
lunches...Caution may be harmful if ingested... apply to other mammals
as well?
Fire fighters from the East Coast were blamed for much of the problems
identified by this fur and feather huckster. He said the firefighters
from the East didn't have as much experience with bears. Does he believe
all wild land firefighters from the East Coast are from Jersey?
A wildlife graduate and he hadn't heard of bear problems east of the Big
Muddy? I think the problem is with how this F&W person was raised.
It's obvious he didn't get enough attention as a child and is now
seeking out ways to get the attention he missed as a youngster.
Think about it...fire fighters are front page news items during fire
season. The only time a Fish and Fur person makes the front page is when
a Moose or Elk is in farmer Franks pasture trying to breed with his
prize Holstein. Even then they usually say something stupid when asked
why is the Moose acting this way? The answer is always...the Moose is in
rut...DUH!
I've met many good fin and fur types and have worked along side of them
fighting fires, trapping elk and Electro-shocking streams for fish
surveys. I'm positive this fresh college graduate will receive comments
from his peers about the article.
For the sake of maintaining the proper balance in our forests I suggest
every fire fighter take the following pledge...I will not pee in
Rivers...Creeks or Streams...And I will not feed the bears. However...if
I see a bear while crossing a River, Creek or Stream I cannot guarantee
that I will not pee.
Oliver Moore...Hey Yogi is this lunch safe to eat?...Be safe
Copyright Held by Oliver Moore Inc. |
| 6/23 |
re: CISM on lightbulb incidents
I just wanted to pass along some helpful suggestions for
Critical Incandescent Stress Management:
* Emergency responders often feel alone at times of filament
failure. Reach out for other people.
*Keep a journal. Write your way through the hours of darkness.
*In addition to physical, cognitive and emotional reactions,
some firefighters have reported changes in sexual behavior
during and immediately following type 3 (or "transition") bulb
events.
*People frequently suffer flashbacks after this type of
incident. As one division sup told me, "I close my eyes, and
it's just like the lights went out again."
*Don't make any big light changes, until things have settled.
And, to folks like Nerd: Don't label yourself crazy. We will
take care of that.
vfd cap'n |
| 6/23 |
In the various threads......
FFeric, passing over more qualified or experienced firefighters
should only occur if the selection is a violation of Federal
Laws, Rules, or Regulations. In that case, the selecting
official may make selections that do not appoint the most
qualified or most experienced employees. If you have evidence of
that occurring, then you need to speak out.
Retired L.A.V.E, I agree with alot of your post except... one of
your quotes brings questions....
Retired L.A.V.E. - your statement of "Now that said, I have some
sour notes to add. Some of the worst firefighters I have worked
with are white males. Talk about lazy, worthless, and piss poor
leadership to boot. Man things like that do bring me down.
That's why I am retired."
Gender, race, and national origin have have nothing to do with
firefighting......... firefighters are firefighters........ If
you use gender bias to make decisions or comparisons.... how can
everyone else avoid those pitfalls?????? Firefighters are
firefighters.... it's as simple as that....... Each is judged on
merit, qualifications, experience and conformance with federal
law or they shouldn't be judged at all.
Rogue Rivers |
| 6/23 |
Wildfire, America's Heroes, and the Real Mountain Men (& Women)
I think there's a few different things & a few important
insights that are going on here. For one, I think it's important
for people to realize that humor in the form of sarcasm or irony
really doesn't go over too well here on TheySaid- very hard for
people not to misinterpret such words, a lesson I've learned
from many a misread post.
At heart, I think, Startree has a good point, or at least I'm
interpreting his words in such a way. But before I get too deep
into that, I'd like to point out that there are two very
different traditions at work here.
Wildland fire fighting is not & never will be the same as city
fire fighting. The feds, particularly the USFS, has a culture &
tradition that rose mostly from a history of logging & loggers.
These are the mountain men, the descendants of the ol' cowboys-
if not in flesh, then in mind & heart. If you talk to people who
fight wildfire and ask them why they do it- besides the money,
they talk about adventure, about waking up in different places
everyday, about traveling, about brotherhood, about never ever
having a desk job. And that is what makes wildland fire fighting
special & something that I truly enjoy doing.
Fighting wildfire for the Feds requires that you kinda live a
rough & tumble lifestyle, that you don't mind being something of
a nomad. And if you look for the pithe, the core of what it
means to fight fire for the feds, you find the hotshot crew. I'm
not trying to make a statement here or put any of the other
wonderful fire fighters here down, but culturally speaking,
being on a hotshot crew is the pinnacle of what fire fighting is
about- the traveling, the action, the PTs, the go-go-go
lifestyle.
And that's the paradigm that we live by. And for those of you
who've spent time on a hotshot crew, you know that the folk tend
to be a hard-drinkin, hard-workin, foul-mouthed, rough around
the edges bunch. These are not the people you neccesarily want
standing in front of a TV camera or within earshot of a family
establishment.
Now contrast this with the tradition of city fire fighting, the
view that the public has of what a "fireman" is supposed to be.
This is the place where the Irish & the Italians wound up, this
is a lifestyle modeled around stability. They didn't read
Lonesome Dove one day & decide they wanted to crash around
America eating MRE's. They chose their jobs for different
reasons- often times more noble sounding ones like "I want to
help people." And hey, they have powerful unions, great pay,
great benefits, etc. They're clean cut, model citizens even.
They are what people think of when they talk about FDNY &
"America's Heroes." These people have been subjected to
background checks & relentless polishing by the high standards
of their organizations.
And the reality is that a lot of wildland fire fighters fit in
what i'm calling the "city fire fighting tradition" even though
they have nothing to do with urban fire depts. (This is esp true
in SoCal & CDF). My point here is not to say that one is better
than the other, but to point out simply that they are two very
different traditions & cultures at work here, and not to get
them too confused.
But both of these traditions are rooted in the greater American
culture, which is to say "white culture." Hell, I'm a hispanic &
a hotshot, but I'm about as Americanized as they come, and I'll
tell you that my ethnic "brothers & sisters" are a lot more
inclined towards the culture & traditions of city fire fighting.
Why? City fire fighting is about people having families &
stability & living the dream of American consumerism. Wildfire
is a lot more about "rugged individualism," and that's very much
based in white America, and furthermore, that cultural tradition
antagonizes just about every minority group out there, esp.
hispanics.
And that's where I think Startree is on to something, even if i
didn't like the way he said it or some of the other comments he
made. The real reason we don't have more minorities in the
federal wildfire program is not because of discrimination, but
because of deep, yet simple culture differences.
So folks, for whatever reason you ended up here, have some fun
out there & try not to spend too much money on booze before that
first fire check comes rollin' in.
Happily,
The Nomad
Well said! Ab. |
| 6/23 |
Dear Ab
A couple of recent posts have really caught my eye. First
Startrees. I think he/she has a valid point, but possibly failed
to advance it in the best way possible. Now, everyone knows that
wildland firefighting is a profession that is predominately
white and male. As to why it's predominately male, I've heard
several people, men and women both, say it's because women are
too smart to keep coming back year after year. Or it's possible
that this is just one of those professions that doesn't attract
alot of interest as a career path for women. And I will
stipulate that 20-30 years ago there was an institutional bias
against females. However, that has changed considerably, and
definitely for the better. Ok, so why are wildland firefighters
mostly white? I'd say the two biggest reasons are geography and
demographics. Most wildland fires on federal land are in the we
stern U.S. So, people who see and are attracted to wildland jobs
are predominately from the west. Makes sense right? How many
lobster fisherman in Maine are from Iowa? I'm sure there's a
few, but not many. Demographically, the west, excluding states
bordering Mexico and certain urban areas are pretty much white.
That especially holds true in rural areas. So, when people start
looking for work, many look for work in their own back yard, and
what do you know, the Feds have alot of jobs, especially for
younger people paying their way through college. Believe it or
not, there is no great conspiracy by white males to keep
everyone else out of fire. Are there racist, sexist white males
in the wildland fire community? Absolutely. Do they dominate it.
Certainly not. Excluding a few jerks, every firefighter I know
values a persons work ethic much more than the color of their
skin or the way the're plumbed.
Now for Curious GS-4. I had a hand crew on the Moose fire and I
can pretty much tell you why it kicked not only the North
Carolina teams, but all of our butts. Fuels, weather and
topography. Anytime a fire runs from 5,000 to 15,000 acres in a
day, there's nothing anyone can do about it, whether the're from
North Carolina, Montana, or Mars. And don't forget that when the
Moose made it's REALLY big run Humphrey's team from the
Southwest was running things. Which is not to say that Humphreys
team did anything wrong either. Sometimes stuff just happens.
FireChica....How many hotshots to change a lightbulb?
It would take the whole crew. The sup and foreman scout the
situation, the squad bosses don't do any work because they're
watching out for the safety of their squad, the saw squad won't
do any work that doesn't require a chainsaw, you have one person
slinging the weather every 15 minutes, 2 lookouts, 3 people
acting as squad boss trainees and the remaining 4 people are
left to actually change the bulb. Now before I catch a raft of
grief from 500 angry shots, let me just say that I'm talking
about 1 particular shot crew that I've worked around and don't
want to disparage all hotshot crews.
R1861 |
| 6/23 |
WORKPLACE VIOLENCE AND PREVENTION
Retired L.A.V.E..... your statement, quote,
"The ones I want to hunt down and bludgeon with a dull
pulaski are the ones who take credit for your work while
don't little or none themselves." and then your statement of
"They aren't afraid of the dark, actually they prefer the
dark it makes it easier to sneak up on the fire and kill
it!"
These statements are pretty troubling to me when it comes to
workplace violence and prevention. Past federal employees have
been fired for similar statements and others outside of the
federal government have been prosecuted for such comments......
I know you didn't mean a threat by this, but realize that
sometimes it could come across that way to people on the outside
of your thoughts or organizational norms or by others who are
just listening and contributing.......
singed... KC ... a full supporter of First Amendment
Rights....BUT you still have to be careful that you don't offend
or intimidate anyone in the workforce..... especially with
bludgeoning.... Bludgeoning is kin to decapitation........
KC |
| 6/23 |
doc brown
the only problem I have found with the racal radios vs the kings
is the volume issue.
The king is much louder and easier to hear around pumps, chain
saws, ect. The racal
mike doesnt help much either.
palomino43 |
| 6/23 |
From Northzone5
U.S. May Return Some Air Tankers to Fire Lines
The U.S. Forest Service's national fire plan coordinator
told Western governors that the agency was prepared to
consider returning a limited number of heavy air tankers to
fire lines following a move to ground the aircraft over
safety concerns. Corbin Newman, addressing the Western
Governors Assn. in Santa Fe, N.M., said the Forest Service
had agreed to a plan with federal transportation officials
to review proposals from new contractors to fly the tankers.
Officials will scrutinize maintenance information, previous
inspections and other documents about the aircraft's flying
life before considering its return to service, Newman said.
(Los Angeles Times, 6/21/04)
www.latimes.com |
| 6/22 |
Nerd and everybody,
Ha, ha, HA!
FireChica |
| 6/22 |
COMT
Thanks for the post. I've been trying to put the final touches
to an interoperability plan for communications on my Unit. With
Fire Departments going 800 MHRTZ and wild land agencies moving
to narrow band it's like taking two jigsaw puzzles and trying to
come up with one puzzle that captures the Mountain, Ocean,
flower...etc scene from each.
I now recognize that my complaining about waiting for the tubes
to warm up in the radio of my first engine before going in
service was a waste of time.
KJC |
| 6/22 |
OK, I feel the need to stand up for Startree here. I think
he/she is being misinterpreted. I think the point Startree was
trying to make is that there are different activity priorities
in different ethnic and social groups. For example, my family is
Italian, so we yell at each other, cause that’s what we Italians
like to do. (before anyone gets upset, that’s a joke.) I think
Startree was trying to make the point that in many African
American communities, basketball is a major activity, just like
hockey is in Canada, and soccer is in Brazil, etc. That doesn’t
mean that other people don’t enjoy it or aren’t good at it too.
Doesn’t mean that those demographics won’t change. I think
Startree is just trying to say that right now there are more
white guys than women and ethnic applying for wild firefighting
jobs. It’s like hockey in Canada. There will always be lots of
Candaians that are gung-ho about hockey and that’s not going to
change no matter how many Chech’s get involved with the game.
Doesn’t mean they should have preference. It is just a statement
that the interest is there for that particular group of people.
I don’t think Startree is trying to suggest that white guys are
inherently MADE to fight wildfire.
OD |
| 6/22 |
I use Racal radios they seem to out perform kings and are water
proof as well as having gps
capabilities I think king is good but will failure around those
pesky down pours with thunder
storms unless you carry a plastic bag you can find them at
www.thalescomminc.com
doc brown |
| 6/22 |
POST-INJURY ANALYSIS
Regarding: The Lightbulb Incident
Type: Medical treatment injury and property damage
NARRATIVE:
At 06:00 a failure of incandescent module 75W was noted in the
livingroom sector. At 06:30 the failure was confirmed, and at
07:00 the Sofa King hotshots were dispatched to the incident.
The crew arrived at the site of the incident at 07:01, and were
placed under the command of Mom’s Type I IMT. Following a
routine safety briefing including a discussion of hazards
specific to the livingroom environment, Squad A, with the
assistant crewboss and one squadboss, lined out and began to cut
line around the affected area (fuels were characterized as
carpet, spider plant, and the couch). At 08:45, Squad B located
a stepladder and successfully removed the failed element. Squad
B was then re-assigned to rehab the black; specifically, to
install a new incandescent module 75W. During installation, the
firefighter in physical contact with the incandescent module 75W
received lacerations to the right hand when the incandescent
module shattered in his/her hand. This incident resulted in
trauma to the firefighter’s critical “beerhoisting” hand,
critical incident stress to the crew, property damage to the
incandescent module 75W requiring complete replacement, and
expenses to the incident including medevac by helicopter,
biohazard cleanup of blood, and pending insurance claims.
CONCLUSION:
The shattering of the incandescent unit 75W was most likely due
to over-torque of the module as a result of excessive PT on the
part of the injured firefighter.
LESSONS LEARNED:
In the future, all installation of incandescent modules shall be
conducted using a torque wrench to prevent over-torque.
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:
Who the hell let hotshots change a lightbulb in the first place?
Nerd on the Fireline
<haw haw> |
| 6/22 |
A friend from Spokane notified me about an interesting article
in the
Spokane Spokesman-Review:
A fire's line of legacies: Residents work to preserve mine shaft
where
1910 crew survived still-influential blaze
www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp?ID=11652
It's pretty cool of the locals to take an active interest in
that site. I'm
putting it on my list of places to visit. And anyone that's in
the Wallace
area next weekend really ought to make it a point to go see
Stephen Pyne
talk - that would be well worth your time.
And if you aren't in that area, be sure to read "The Year of the
Fires" by
Stephen Pyne (order it from Amazon by clickin' thru from the
Fire Books page
on this site, and earn angel points from the Abs). That book
should be
required reading for anyone that puts on boots and nomex to head
off to the
hinterlands - I give it five chainsaws. There's a gripping
account of
Ranger Pulaski, as well as a lot of eye-opening stuff about the
history
behind why we do what we do.
BLM Bob |
| 6/22 |
Race, gender, and hotshots screwing lightbulbs:
About the posts about men, women, and various skin tones in the
game of fire. I have been on a couple of fire departments, and
more than a few sports teams. The one thing I have done is to
judge the individual on their merits. If they pass muster on
willingness, drive, and the odd quality to do hard work for long
hours with little reorganization then they are my "brother or
sister". I don't care about color or gender or who they sleep
with, if they do their job well and learn, admit mistakes and
then learn from them, I want them on my team. What I don't want
are lazy, whiners, who are always looking to do the least work
for the most publicity. The ones I want to hunt down and
bludgeon with a dull pulaski are the ones who take credit for
your work while don't little or none themselves.
I once told my strike team leader that it would be easy to make
him look bad, but that wasn't my job. My job was to do the very
best I could and to encourage all of the other strike team
members to do the same. His (the strike team leader's) job was
to go get an assignment so we could go to work. If he would do
his job I would do mine. What I got in return was and ear-to-ear
grin. We were told by our division chief that he would ask for
us by name the next time he had a fire in his district. Now
that's a reward in my book.
Now that said, I have some sour notes to add. Some of the worst
firefighters I have worked with are white males. Talk about
lazy, worthless, and piss poor leadership to boot. Man things
like that do bring me down. That's why I am retired.
Fire Chica -
You know hotshot crews don't change light bulbs. They aren't
afraid of the dark, actually they prefer the dark it makes it
easier to sneak up on the fire and kill it!
Retired L.A.V.E. |
| 6/22 |
Wideband into narrowband/digital headaches.
When people ask me what kind of radio to buy, I
recommend getting a Bendix/King GPH. The reason is
that these radios are wideband/narrowband analog and
can be upgraded in the future to digital radio (I am
strongly against digital for fire use). They also can
be programmed with the new interstitial frequencies
(these are spaced so close together they actually
overlap adjacent frequencies). It is also the radio
most familiar to communications personnel.
The states of Washington and California have installed
these interstitial frequencies in places and have
found that thier EPH radios will not accept them. This
is why King came out with the GPH. Oregon state is
scheduled to implement similar frequencies soon.
In reading SAFENETs, there are quite a few on problems
with wideband into digital radios set to receive
narrowband analog. This is worth reading
safenet.nifc.gov .
I hate to say it, but those bargain King radio you can
pick up on EBAY are going to be almost useless on
Federal (and certain state) fires, even the Flexmode
(narrowbandable) EPHs.
COMT |
| 6/22 |
FireChica
The answer to the question... How many Hotshots does it take to
change a light bulb?
None...only engine crews are red carded for this type of
domestic work.
KJC |
| 6/22 |
Hey,
Once we know how many 'shots will be needed for deployment on
the "Incadescent"
then we will need to asign some type 2 crews to go behind and
rehab........................
Yall be safe as this thing kicks off and just let us know when
you want a type 2 from
florida.... soon i hope, i hope, i hope........
Flash |
| 6/22 |
Re: Non Fed IC’s
I certainly can’t speak to R5, but in other regions type 5, 4
and 3 IC’s that are not Fed are relatively
common. On our local Nat’l Park, we have long had a standing
delegation of authority, as they have
no IC personnel. Closest forces agreements usually allow outside
agencies to assume IC and many
areas have type 3 teams that are headed by state or other
personnel.
Islander |
| 6/22 |
I know this is going back in time, but I am dying to know.
Anyone have
an opinion as to why the Moose Fire that took out Glacier NP in
August
2001 got away so badly just after the North Carolina team took
over? As
a state team east of the Mississippi, this was supposed to be a
big
debut for them on a challenging fire. What went wrong?
Curious GS-4 |
| 6/22 |
Ab,
Firechica asks: "How many hotshots does it take to change a
lightbulb?"
My answer: "Six. Unless they have the assistant crew boss do it
instead of
assigning a squad."
Sedgehead. |
| 6/22 |
How many Hotshots does it take to change a lightbulb?
Answer:
None. It should already be changed by the time we get
home from the fire.
Chaos |
| 6/22 |
OHmiGOODNESS Nerd, your cathedrals and cedar note made me
realize the (very small) problem with the original smoke post,
the only small thingie that was missing. SAGEBRUSH. All you have
to do is go without sagebrush (burning or just waving greenish
on the breeze) for a few years, and then go get a good load of
it up your nose, and you suddenly and violently realize what you
were missing. Sweetgrass braids from the tribal ladies aside (I
hope to god I never smell THAT on a fire), sage has got to be as
good as pissfir is bad, burning-wise.
Oh, speaking of pissfir, I sent the original smoke post to an
old friend who often misses TheySaid because he's not squirtin'
water and flingin' dirt anymore, and he said:
Of course there's also gagging, crying, knee-crawling smoke --
but too much of a good thing always causes this.
YUP.
|chica| |
| 6/22 |
Where Can I find the movie call "In line of Duty" - Smoke
Jumpers DOC |
| 6/22 |
Firescribe, thanks for the link to the smokejumper story. Man, I
would have given anything to be there amongst all that fire
history. Anybody happen to be there and take a few photos of the
tri-motor they are willing to share??
...and no comment (well, ok, just one) on the recent hub-bub,
ya'll are giving a fair and well deserved ration the those who
deserve it. As one who probably missed a fair chance at a fed
appointment due to the consent decree (and reganonics). I have
always felt (as a few of you have said) the most worthy fire
firefighters out there are the ones who WANT to be there and do
this job, regardless of their sex, race, religious beliefs or
the color of their underware.
Pulaski
Re the smokejumpers. We got a request to add their site to
our links page. We did have their link up several years ago and
musta lost it in the shuffle of changing servers and revising
the page... Take a look at the
Links
page under Jobs and you will find them. Also added a link to
Mike McMillan's Spotfire Images under
Miscellaneous-- a fine fire photojournal site. Please read
"About the Photos" section before using photos for
non-commercial or training purposes. |
| 6/22 |
Wow, I must have missed something, all I got from startree's
post was that for some reason firefighting is a job that
primarily seems to appeal to white males, not that the best
firefighters are white males. I would tend to agree that is
true, when I taking fire classes, testing etc the largest group
of people involved were white males, I'd guess 75%. Why this is?
I don't know prior hiring and the culture could be part of it
(rather closed minded towards non whites and women), family
tradition (great grandad, grandad, dad did it) the Irish and
Italians were a large portion of the early fire service, oddly
enough due to racism against them, FF was a crummy job and
people didn't want to hire the Irish and Italian immigrants for
the good jobs. Who knows? Might make a good project for a
government grant :) . Hey if there is something to it, then
perhaps it could help recruit people that want the job but for
what ever reason don't apply.
It seems to me the female angle got tossed in by an Ab and
people ran with it (I saw nothing in startree's first post about
women in fire).It seems many took the mention of the quantity
and took it to mean quality.
Just to make it perfectly clear I am making no comment about the
ability of any group of firefighter, I've worked with good and
bad firefighters of many national origins and gender.
Startree interesting article, obviously a touchy subject but
interesting idea anyway. Now then if I took this the wrong way
and you were claiming non-white males are better, then what they
said...
Fedfire |
| 6/22 |
Ab..
I have been out of action due to injury and age for
quite some time. I am apparently DONE firefighting
forever.. and have accepted that bit of hard to swallow
news. And I have moved on to other "serve my country"
projects for which I am still suited. Getting old is
hell...but then again being young was no picnic
either.
Anyway.. I have not checked They Said it for quite a
few months and have just noticed that Mellie is
recovering.. and being subjected to PT. If it is
possible please send her my best wishes for a complete
recovery. She is a sweet and wise part of this
site.. and will always hold a special place in my
heart.
Thanks,
Dana/Fireronin |
| 6/22 |
I'm ashamed of the Forest Service's new hiring and promotion
policies! So they think that passing up more qualified personnel
and promoting or hiring the minimum required is the best for my
agency? I don't thinks so! And it's all based upon race or sex.
What ever happened to hiring the best man or women for the job?
As a statistic less minorities apply to the USFS so that would
mean less of them in the work force, well not in the head
honchos eyes. Don't confuse me for being a racist or anything
but I'm just so disappointed in the way my agency works. Can't
wait for the "white male" resolution or more specifically the
"Italian male" resolution so I can promote! And they wonder why
they have a problem retaining firefighters by loosing them to
other agencies. I'm I missing something? Did I not get the memo
explaining this???
I understand I haven't read all posts before with your guys'
opinion but this is mine. I've noticed a less "fit for the job"
type group being hired on my forest over folks that I believed
were better suited, prepared and qualified for the position to
meet some so called quota. As I stated before we need to hire
the best PERSON for the Job and not give it to someone who meets
the minimums and is a minority. I work with several minorities
who are GREAT firefighters, but they almost don't want to
promote because they don’t want to pass other firefighters who
might be a better pick for the job. So now will we all think
that "Oh they were only given that position because of their
skin color and not how well they do their job"?
FFEric |
| 6/21 |
Old Guy ,
D'oh! I (obviously) didn't scroll back to MJ's post. I guess
there's one
problem with unthreaded message boards - people like me with
short
attention spans.
Still, the R5 memo referred to IMTs, and I've been thinking
about that and
wondering how Steve Gage (and the others) would have figured
into that mix.
BLM Bob |
| 6/21 |
EH,
Man, I hate to stoop. Personally, I don't remember ever having
had
prejudices toward any group of people. I do firmly believe
however that being an
ass**** will transcend all race, color, religion, and gender. If
you have a
problem with a person, you should be blaming the "person all the
way through",
not just what you think you can see on the outside.
Going into some very bad situations, I've deliberately opted for
the
assistance of females on certain occasions. I don't recall
having ever made a bad
call in that aspect. But then, I've got a bad habit of thinking
outside of the
box.
Did you ever see Monty Python's cast singing the lyrics... "men,
men, men,
men... men, men, men, men"? Oh yeah! The Lumberjack Song! You
must be the
one on the right!
Please get your Crayolas out and write again soon.
Stay safe! (even you EH)
"Kicks" |
| 6/21 |
Re 'ICs are feds' comment:
BLM Bob, I was referring to Type 3, 4 or 5 ICs on IA that MJ was
referring to.
Steve was one of those great Type I -ICs (CIIMT3 in 2001). I
should have been
more exact.
Old Guy with the FS |
| 6/21 |
An observation:
Must be a really slow fire season since white guys who
apparently own the
world of firefighting because they are "wired" for it can take
time out from
their busy day making the world safe from wildfire and
misinterpreting human
biology and sociology in order to post here. Morons like EH are
not really
the problem because they wear their ignorance like a red badge
of courage
and can be seen from afar and dealt with appropriately. Startree
on the
other hand is a little scary. I would not want to him (?) to be
on a hiring
panel and see my application if he (?) is disposed to think that
white guys
are inherently better suited for firefighting work because it is
part of
their culture. I guess that I spent the last 30 fire seasons
being
culturally displaced. Suggest Startree peruse some of Stephen
Pyne's many
books on fire throughout the world. Non-whites have been playing
with and
managing fires for a long time. Maybe that is the problem -
white guy
culture has run around largely putting fire out while many
non-white
cultures have tended to live peacefully with fire.
Wearing Out But Not Down - you go girl! I know who you are.
Pyrodactyl |
| 6/21 |
KJC;
I think that in your gastronomic enthusiasm, you’ve lost sight
of the religious aspects of smoke. Though not myself of the most
reverent bent, I find that a sudden intrusion of cedar onto the
olfactories provokes nothing less than a yearning toward
cathedrals. Best of all is following a faller through a cedar
stand and having a sudden whiff of fresh cut cedar cut through
the smoke like a ray of light through a stained glass window.
You do touch on the medicinal and cleansing feeling evoked by
burning sage; for my part I find that the rich nutty aroma of a
torching tumbleweed cluster is most satisfying.
Nerd on the Fireline |
| 6/21 |
Old Guy with the FS,
I'm going to have to correct you a little on your assertion that
"ICs have
always been feds." In the time it took me to fire up my email, I
could
think of at least four Type 1 ICs that aren't/weren't feds -
Steve Gage,
Kern County FD(?); Joe Stam, Alaska State Forestry; Bob
Anderson, Spokane
County FD; and Ed Story, Utah State Forestry. I'm old too, or I
imagine I
could come up with more.
Those are national Type 1 teams, in the rotation for all Type 1
incidents -
including the FS in California or any other jurisdiction. I
believe that
non-fed Steve Gage has been IC on numerous "R5" fires. Hes not
an IC now,
but I wonder how that memo would have flown when he was.
But to agree with you partially, to my knowledge there hasn't
been an AD
Type 1 IC, though oddly enough there have been/are AD Area
Commanders. Go
figure.
BLM Bob
PS: Hey EH, do you have any other interesting views like, say,
on the WCT or
what type of firefighters are the toughest? I'd love to hear
them. |
| 6/21 |
Ladies and Gentlemen of TheySaid,
To lighten the mood given the dark comments of recent I offer up
the following deeply philosophical question:
How many Hotshots does it take to change a lightbulb?
FireChica |
| 6/21 |
Ab,
I spent my morning wading through 8 pages of form SF-424 so my
fire district can get funded on our Community Assistance grant
from BLM. It includes a long paragraph from among 2 pages of
assurances (as evidenced by my chief's signature) to the federal
government that our little fire district:
"Will comply with all Federal statutes relating to
nondiscrimination. These include but are not limited to: (a)
Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (P.L. 88-352) which
prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color or
national origin; (b) Title IX of the Education Amendments of
1972, as amended (20 U.S.C. §§1681- 1683, and 1685-1686),
which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex; .....(i)
any other nondiscrimination provisions in the specific
statute(s) under which application for Federal assistance is
being made; and, (j) the requirements of any other
nondiscrimination statute(s) which may apply to the
application."
I don't understand why folks who collect a federal paycheck
(like EH and Startree) seem to think they should be exempt from
federal law, or common decency for that matter? Is it because
they are "leaders in all things fire" as the saying goes in R5?
Or is the good ol' boy system just too firmly entrenched to
abide by law?
vfd cap'n |
| 6/21 |
From Firescribe: Found this via the Fire News page. Interesting
glimpses at history.
Stories unfurl at smokejumper
reunion
www.missoulian.com
For some historical smokejumper visuals:
Brownie's Smokejumper Memoirs |
| 6/21 |
KJC
May I make one suggestion: Instead of a Merlot with the fir
smoked sharp Cheddar I would
really recommend a Washington State Syrah. The spicy peppery
tones of a good Syrah I feel
would stand up the sharpness of the cheese.
If I could go fight fires anywhere I would go to the forests of
Central France (Nevers, Allier,
Vosges) where the wood for wine barrels comes from. That is the
best smelling smoke in the
world.
Ok, on another note my condolences to the family and friends of
SEAT driver Wayne Turner.
I too will be very interested in what the NTSB concludes. From
the photos I was curious if the
power lines in the foreground may have been a contributing
factor. June 21 and 2 SEAT deaths...
No more!
Firewall |
| 6/21 |
Is it true that ICs on fires are being sued by the citizens? or
is this just rumor?
If anyone knows of a case where this has happened please let me
know.
SoCal FF2 |
| 6/21 |
Geeze. Just when I was getting bored with the WCT thread
somebody livens it up with a nice bigoted post that is sure to
get folks riled up for a while. i'm known for getting my opinion
in early so here goes....
Ab: Thanks for responding so eloquently to EH. Your words were
much kinder than what I would have said and you made the point
that needed to be made.
EH: Grow up.
Startree: As a woman in fire who throughout my career was always
one of the first and has been a Division Chief for 15 years
trying to implement the top down bureaucratic insanity that is
the culture du jur these days, I agree with you to a point.
However, I draw the line with your comments about it being a
white guys club. Yes there are more white guys than others and
there probably will be until our society quits convincing women
and minorities that they aren't good enough to participate in a
"white guy's" society except as what the white guys tell them.
Women and minorities have just as much "passion for
firefighting" as you do if they are allowed the chance to get
hired in the first place and develop it.
Another Fluustered FF: The Forest Service didn't say we needed
more hispanics. A judge did.
I very much disagree with the current mode of lawsuit and fear
based decision making that is forcing the latest method of
hiring down our throats. (Yes I am in R5.) It is creating an
unsafe situation that upper level managers don't seem to
appreciate. But the real point is that if we quit stereotyping
groups of people and looked at what in our society is keeping
them from competing well for jobs, right down to our media and
the education system (I won't even mention AVUE!), we would find
that the answer is not so easy to address.
Just so you know, I am a product of the first round of consent
decree, but I am also a pretty darn good firefighter. Not one of
the best or most famous, but I've been around for a long time
and have proved myself over and over. Been on crews (including
hotshots), engines, fuels and as a DC now I have to go to fires
to get away from my desk. And yes, I HAVE had to tell people I
couldn't hire them because of the way our hiring system is
goofed up these days, even though they were right good
candidates. I do my best and I do what I can. Sometimes the
system gets the best of me but it doesn't keep me from trying to
do the right thing.
And so I've said enough that probably half of you know who I am.
Sign me:
Wearing out, but not down |
| 6/21 |
EH,
I understand that it is frustrating that we give priority to
people who sometimes don’t deserve it. I do not think that
lowering the standards or trying to meet hiring numbers solves
the problem.
HOWEVER, I happen to know a certain hotshot crew boss who claims
that, if he could, he would have an entirely female crew because
the female firefighters he has known have worked incredibly
hard. According to him women firefighters either can't cut it at
all or they are awesome to work with because they KNOW they have
to work TWICE as hard to keep up with their male compatriots. It
is true that there are women out there that can't keep up, but
there white men that fit that bill too. Are you saying that you
have never ever had a white male on a crew that was lazy or
incompetent?
We have a woman here who was a hotshot back in the day. She is a
tiny gal but she firmly believes that you have to rise to the
occasion. She once owned a gym and you had better believe that
she convinced all the men on her crew that she deserved a place
on that shot crew. There isn't a man around that doesn't respect
the status she has worked so hard for. A woman like her can give
some of the big men I’ve met out there a run for his money any
day. By making broad generalized statements, you do a terrible
disservice to the women, who like her, have worked so hard to
earn their place by meeting the same standards as the men on a
consistent basis. You are right in as much as you are trying to
say that we should hire the best person for the job and that
should be the end of it, regardless of their sex or race but you
go too far in making statements such as “After working with a
wide range of people I don't trust women or minorities because
they do not have the physical strength to keep up or the work
ethic.” The fact that the most admirable and experienced
firefighters I know out there, not to mention myself, disagree
with that statement just goes to show that you are a bitter man.
I can understand how you would come to be so, but sometimes we
have to reexamine how we came to feel a certain way. It’s ok to
be angry, its not ok to tarnish the names of respectable
firefighters out there.
OD |
| 6/21 |
Whooooweee, not gonna touch that EH post! Ab, you were too kind.
MJ-- ICs have always been feds. You can't have contractor
engines or
ADs IC-ing fire at any level. Think of the liability issue if
something goes
south. The AD is not covered. The Forest Supervisor, will they
be liable?
Will the Agencies assume liability? Not on your life!
You must know, however, there's nothing that says the IC has to
be on
the fireline. That's how our forest deals with the lightning
bust situation.
Old Guy with the FS |
| 6/21 |
Ab:
I have no problem with female fire fighters as a group. My
observations over the years are that their presence in the
organizations that I have worked has strengthened us. As
individuals some have been outstanding, some lacking and most
falling somewhere in between. I found the same with men.
My observation is that, as a group, white males have more of a
passion for fire fighting than any one else. Please don’t take
this as a put down. There are many outstanding folks in the wild
land fire community of either sex or various ethnic backgrounds.
If the only reason they had the opportunity to become fire
fighters was affirmative action then it was a good thing. If
they got there by individual effort all the better. It’ | |
