They Said, July 2004

"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
July, 2004
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7/30

We have added and are testing a new feature for our website. In an effort to allow real-time distribution of emergency incident information, we have added a new information forum called the "Hot List Forum". This forum allows our users to post, update, or view information on new and evolving incidents. Information is published as soon as it is submitted, without editing. It should only be used for posting or viewing current emergency incident information. General discussion or information requests should remain in They Said It or the WLF Chat Room.

In an effort to keep out the riff-raff, porn merchants, and other spammers we are forced to require a very short registration form (name and email address) to be submitted before access is granted. There is no charge to register or use the forum.

We will maintain the forum as long there is enough interest or use. We encourage everyone (especially dispatchers) to use the new area to help keep us all updated on Initial Attacks, other new incidents, or where we might be going next. Your comments or suggestions regarding the new forum may be addressed to wlf-forum@wildlandfire.com

Use this link for the Policy and Registration Page

7/30

Time to act

I penned the 52 Club, and submitted it to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, The Idea was not mine alone but a collaborative process that was acted on. It was cleaned up by a few different people before it took its final form. My main thought was to put the Foundation in a position of not always asking for donations. They have more important things to do than fund raise. I listen to National public Radio at times and when the pledge drive starts I usually turn the station. When the firefighting community interacts with the WFF I did not want to see all those people "turning the station" .

As a long-time firefighter I know fire season is the best time to get on-the-line firefighters to donate. I used August first as the date to which I would ask all I know to donate as it is a time of highest income here in the Northwest and the reality of what the Foundation is here for is largely in the forefront of our thinking. For many it has been a slow fire season and many have not seen big fire checks. BUT August 1st is a few days out and it is time to act. The list is growing for the 52 Club, but nowhere as long as it should be. I see something like 1% of fire fighters represented currently. Log on to the WFF web site and look at the 52 club list. How many read this site? What would it look like if 1/2 or 3/4 or 90% of YOU signed up in the next few days? .... you do care right! You all have your 2 cents to put in... put them together and sign up.

It is time to take this to the next level by sharing this info and getting those you know to kick in. Ask your crews to sign up, Ask your local forest Fire Staff to sign up, Ask your boss to sign up ( who is probably unknowingly paying you to read this site) Ask those under you . .... ask your mom ( I did) Don't wait until you have a bad first hand experience to see the importance of this Foundation.

Don't just sit there and read SIGN UP or at least go back to work. ;-) www.wffoundation.org/

DH

7/30

We've received the Cabin Creek Fire After Action Review. It's a word document. Email Ab if you'd like us to send it to you. Has map and photos. Ab.

7/30

Ab,
Just wanted to let you know that I have posted some information on the
Sims fire on the NorCal Team 1 website. There is a map of the fire and a
press release from this morning. There is also a link to the incident page.

As of this morning the fire was 3,820 acres and 50% contained. There is no
cell phone coverage there and they are a very limited number of phones at
camp. (hopefully more lines today)

-Cara

7/30

Here's a collage of new photos of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation trailer with its new paint job and the statues going to the Storm King families. Rowdy Muir's Team (Great Basin Incident Management Team) was the first to get everyone signed up for the 52 Club. They look happy. They should be! Way to go, folks! Kudos, also, to the Logan, Klamath and Cedar City IHCs!

Also rising to the challenge are a number of other teams and crews. We're willing to post photos of those teams and crews that have at least 75% of their members joining up. Send in your photos.

The individual 52 Club list and 52 Gold organizational lists are growing. To those who haven't joined, log on, sign up. It's easy with a credit card. To the rest, tell your friends. Keep up the good work of spreading the challenge. Teams and crews, challenge your members! Challenge other teams and crews!

The POWER OF ONE adds up to the POWER OF MANY and protects our families when they are most vulnerable and hurting. All who step up and contribute are providing the cushion for our fire families in their time of need.

Ab.

7/30

In ref. to the fire cost discussion...

I was told by a co-worker who is on a state IMT that auditors from the GAO will be randomly visiting large/Type 1 incidents this year, as the cost of large fires has risen drastically over the last 5 years. (He told me what the percentage of increase was, but I can't recall. I do remember it as being huge)

Anyone know more about that?

~and~

The 80 acres and running I mentioned last week on the WA coast... well, let's use the old fall-back "reduced acreage due to more accurate mapping" and be generous with 20 acres, but steep and nasty, just the same.

BUT... while that fire was getting dispatched, and several other local fires were popping, two of our command repeaters went down. (something about a phone card to a microwave oven to a tin can connected to fishing line) Our dispatch folks did a fan-friggin' tastic job of getting us to fires and getting us the resources we needed. Way to go, Cascade ladies!

and finally...

my evening news tells me that they are getting ready to evacuate (again) in Chelan (probably in the WA-OWF or WA-SES) from the Deep Harbor Fire. More to come, I'm sure.

Choose the difficult right over the easy wrong,

FireBill

Analysis 2 years ago when costs rose sharply showed that it was due largely to the skyrocketing costs of aerial firefighting. Ab.

7/30

Fedfire and Old Fire Guy made excellent comments regarding the way to handle
questioning the safety of higher level personnel in wildland fire
situations. When I was a crew boss with an Army crew in Yellowstone in 1988
my crew was to be given an assignment in a location well away from the rest
of the strike team (for some reason three Army crews formed a strike team
there). We were to be sent into an old clear-cut on the Targhee National
Forest, which had been planted with Lodgepole seedlings some years before.
This location was on the edge of rim of a plateau with light or non-existent
fuels on the canyon slope below. In the canyon bottom and partially up the
slope there was heavy timber. The day before, my strike team was unable to
control a small spot fire on the park boundary and it grew into a 27,000
acre "slopover" that afternoon and night. This slopover was on the
southwest portion of the North Fork fire, the largest in the Yellowstone
Complex, and looked like it could threaten private lands, resorts,
campgrounds, and the town of Island Park.

Our assignment was to control any spot fires on the rim, while the heavy
timber below was burned. The Division Supervisor had not seen the area and
was basing his decision on a ten year old ortho photo. When I looked at the
photo, I could clearly see the signs of a one to two year old plantation in
the clear-cut and also see the late 1970's date on the legend of the ortho
photo. As a forester I had done some graduate work in air photo analysis
and concluded it was very likely that a ten year old plantation had
established itself and that the trees were likely to be 8-12 feet tall in
1988. Additionally I thought if the plantation had been successful, a
pre-commercial thin may have been done in the last couple of years. I noted
that the access to the clear-cut was across several hundred feet of old
growth lodgepole between the road and the clear-cut. Based on what I had
seen the old growth was likely to be heavily "jackstrawed", i.e. filled with
enormous amounts of ground fuel which would be difficult to travel through.

I then asked the Division Sup what the designated safety zone was and he
said the clear-cut itself! I disagreed with his analysis based on the ten
year old photo. He then said it was to be the road junction where we were
standing which was 1/2 mile on the road from the location where we had to
navigate through the old growth to the clear-cut. At that point I tried to
convince him that sending any crew, let alone an inexperienced Army crew,
into that location was inherently unsafe. He rolled up the otrho photo and
ordered me to follow his directions. I politely indicated that I would not
take my crew into the situation. He indicated that they needed to start the
burnout soon, before the height of the burning period, and that his tactics
were necessary to save the threat to the town, resorts, etc. I told him I
would remain at the present location and inform any other crew he send in of
the circumstances. He threatened me with post fire action and called my
strike team leader. The STL responded, looked at what I had concluded and
told the Div Sup that we would go into the assignment area before any burn
out operations began. It took us thirty minutes to negotiate the old growth
of only a few hundred feet. Upon entering the "clear-cut" we found a very
successful plantation with dense lodgepole pine of 12-15 feet height. On
the ground was two year old thinning slash from a 50% thinning which looked
like it had been done two years prior. The slash was deep orange in color,
at the prime for ignition. None of it had been treated by lopping or
piling. Had a spot fire occurred in the "clear-cut" we would have been
trapped. Fire behavior in the old growth had been rather extreme in the
entire Yellowstone ecosystem that year.

The strike team leader and I returned to the Div Sups location and was quite
a bit more aggressive than I had been in turning down the assignment. He
told the Div Sup that we were not going to do as ordered with a firm no, but
"h**l no". The Div Sup was enraged and began yelling. The STL put us back
on the bus and we drove down to join the rest of the strike team.

It was a very hard thing to do for me. The first and only time I ever
refused an assignment. I felt a great deal of pressure to go along with the
tactics. Now there is a formal process on how assignments are to be refused
which was not in place then. I would have felt better if this process was
in place when I had to turn this assignment down. The Div Sup was a Idaho
USFS local and he had not seen this type of fire behavior in the Yellowstone
ecosystem before. He did not have experience on southern California
interface conflagrations as I had. He was very emotional and excited with a
goal of saving the town and outlying private lands and structures. I think
adrenaline had adversely affected his ability to objectively analyze the
data he had in front of him.

At the time of this refusal we were in a quiet portion of the "slopover"
(when your fire is already over 400,000 acres, 27,000 seems small!). I
could have been persuaded to accept the tactics as is, after all nothing
much was happening at the time and in that location. I held fast because
instinct and training raised huge red flags. I was mentally focused on the
adverse potential that the tactics, location, and timing could result in.
Talking over the situation with the Div Sup did not do anything but raise,
rather than lower those flags. I stood my ground. Anyone in a similar
situation should objectively talk over the situation, look at all available
data, apply the 10 and 18, and do what is right for them and their crews. I
say to heck with the post fire situation and evaluation, just make sure you
are safe enough to experience the chance to get to the post fire situation
and any "bad" rating you may get.

FR (Retired USFS R3, R4 & R5)

7/30

All this ruckus because of the an estimated cost for Straylor fire is premature.
If those estimates are considered in the same context as previous acre estimates "due to more accurate mapping", it gets muddy (smokey?). Cost estimates will change as the bills are tallied, including indirect expenses associated with the minutiae of support expense (same as any business owner hopes his contract covers - overhead costs).

Does estimated expense associated with a fire include replacement costs of resources lost? Who knows what those estimates include?

R5PITA

7/29

John

I was assigned to the Tiller fire. Another cost contributor was the amount of heavy yellow metal sitting in staging areas on lowboys ... along with other cobbed together logging equipment turned into fire fighting equipment. They too sat with great patience at the staging areas collecting $$. This staging of never used equipment is not limited to fires such as the Tiller Complex. I suspect we all have seen our fair share of clean equipment sitting in camp and at the staging areas. Someone once said if it's not getting dirty ...send it home! If policy prevents using it why do we stage and pay for it? On the Tiller some dozers were staged for private land protection. In fact not only was it staged it was used! What about the 25 other dozers and various pieces of equipment?

A research student at OSU recently completed a paper on logging equipment conversions for fire fighting purposes. He identified the effective slope these machines should operate on and the need to assign a common identifier to the equipment.

His example on the naming of equipment came from a resource order for a feller buncher. The person placing the order had a track based felling machine in mind. Instead he/she received a three wheeled felling machine designed for gentle slopes and small diameter wood. Needless to say it couldn't do the work but was paid the appropriate $$$ for transportation to the fire.

If I can find the web link to his research I will post it.

PS...don't take offense to the technical term "Cobbed together" ...A lot of modern day wild fire suppression equipment came from innovations from the logging industry.

Oliver

7/29

As of around 1930 tonight, there are over 75 folks registering for the new Hot List Forum. I'm happy and proud to say that not one of the viewers has given in to the urge to try posting even one "Test" message! Not that I'd expect anything less from our regular visitors.

There have been a few registrants whose email has bounced back to me for one reason or another.. Your email reply should arrive within 5 minutes or so, if it doesn't show up within 30 minutes, just email me direct wlf-forum@wildlandfire.com and ask for the info.

Thanks, Original Ab.

7/29

Great idea on the Hot List Forum Abs! Especially useful here in California
where it seems that nothing has happened in South Ops in the last 11 days...
at least not according to the News and Notes page. Looks like someone's
dropping the ball on this valuable resource. I'm glad the Abs are picking
it up and running with it.

JF

7/29

Hello everyone,
I am sure that most have seen the R3 web page, and with myself being in R6 its kind of sad really that we and others don’t have web pages like the R3 web page to keep us up to date on whats going on the fires. Could we call this a safety issue? Reason a safety issue, because if your going outside your area, you could see what the fire has done, and other issues going on with weather. I wonder if they could hire the webmaster in R3 for the rest of the regions.
Stay Safe,
RR

I've heard that all the GACCs are going to that format in the not-too-distant future, but not this season. Ab.

7/29

Abs
A media peice on Evergreen's 747 super pooper:
Critics question use of 747 to fight wildfires
www.azcentral.com
SITL

7/29

Ab -
I've been following the discussion about the cost of the Straylor Fire on your site. Unfortunately, it has become another green army versus red army issue. We all know there are differences between the agencies and between individual fires. However, I think the main question that most people have is why THIS particular fire cost so much. By all accounts, a 3,400 acre fire in the middle of nowhere that costs nearly 10-million bucks to suppress should raise concerns and questions from EVERYBODY, no matter who you work for. I don't know the details of this fire and I won't speculate or question anybody's (or any agency's) integrity without that knowledge. However, having grown up just 40 miles from there, I know the physical area well and am simply amazed at the cost and amount of resources devoted to it (generally gentle terrain, no urban interface, no critical habitat, no major infrastructure threatened, etc...) Clearly, I must be missing something here. I think we - the public, the fire community, and the resource management community - need to do a better job of seeking accountability to determine if we can do better. Maybe the cost was justified in this case, but I'd like to hear why from somebody who knows. If anybody has information - without the rhetoric - let me know. Thanks for your forum.
-caf

It may not be green vs red, but some unhappy camper (and friends?) stirring the pot. I just don't know. As I said before, most high cost fires are evaluated at the end of the season. Ab.

7/29

What me.

The numbers I quoted were taken from the National Sit reports, so if they were inflated it was not done by me.

Also what does "We do more than you think like medical aids, which I'm guessing your contract doesn't cover or how about the structure fire maybe the drowning of some person or the hazmat or the vehicle fire or the repairing the DR's office and all that other stuff I reckon your contract doesn't cover that" have anything to do with the current topic of wildland fire cost per acre? My "contract" (technically an EERA since we are not "guaranteed" any work or payments of financial gain) is strictly related to wildland firefighting.

Yes, I have fought fires in R-5 many times, I have also covered FS stations on assignments in the Shasta Trinity NF as one of their initial attack engines for several weeks at times, during which times I have responded to motor vehicle accidents and car fires under the "contract", along with fuels reduction, and trails and other project work while waiting for a fire call. But no I have never been ordered down to S Zone to fight a fire.

I believe most of the 2002 fires that I had listed were N Zone fires anyways if I'm not mistaken, which means the interface areas should be very similar to what is common in R-6. I realize there are a lot of details that aren't revealed in the Sit Reports, that could have a significant effect on the expenses bottom line, but the post I was replying to, was asking about costs listed in the same reports.

John

7/29

Fedfire really hits a lot of the key points in expressing concern about the
safety of an assignment. Well said!

I try to share the following with my folks:

Try to express your concerns in a "non-confrontational" manner. Ask
the supervisor for a moment in private. Present your concerns clearly,
articulate which of the 10 or 18 you are uneasy about. Ask
directly....."how have we mitigated or complied with.....?"
If you have a solution in mind, don't be afraid to "suggest" it. If
not, ask if you can delay implementing the instructions until a solution is
found.
If it becomes clear that the job is "safe" despite your earlier
concerns, then accept the assignment, and move on.
Do not move forward with a plan that is in clear violation of the 10.
Stand firm (but polite), fill out the report, walk off the line if need be.

Your focus should be on the "job" and not on your "career". You know the
job needs to be done safely. Resolution of the conflict between doing the
right thing and promoting your "career" should be a no-brainer. If need
be remind yourself "hey, I was looking for a job when I took this one".....

Tough to do, I know.....

Old Fire Guy

7/29

CRH,
I don't know if you are a whiner or a concerned firefighter. I've noticed most who disagree with a safety concern label the person pointing out the issue as inexperienced and / or a bad firefighter. If they are serious about safety they will explain the how and why safety is being addressed. PYG this is not directed at you, yours is a legitimate concern, what did the rest of the crew think?

I had a similar issue with a crew when I was on a crewboss trainee assignment, my alleged trainer got into a pissing match with other crews on the division and decided he wasn't going to talk to them anymore, not discuss the assignment, not assign work according to crew capabilities (saws) not pass on the briefing from the DIVS. Besides the real communications issues this would have caused these other crews were not really favorably prepared for working in big timber, no saws and they were from Oklahoma a flat grass covered state. It ended when I was prepared to walk off the line and go to safety, he threatened with my task book, I didn't care and proceeded to list the 10 and 18 and LCES he was breaking with his attitude, he relented with several choice words for me and disparaging comments about my worth as a firefighter and basically ended my running of the crew that day, throughout day at least half the crew came up to me and thanked me for standing my ground, apparently this had been going on for a couple of days before I arrived and it had been bothering the crew but they were afraid to speak up to him since most were ADs. I was also talked to by the DIVS who apparently saw part of it (this guy must have been a ninja in a past life he would just appear and disappear, pretty good for a guy who looked older than dirt) and also thanked me for dealing with it as I did, he knew there was a problem between the crews but didn't know what was going on. The assignment continued on for a few more days, I had a great time with the crew but needless to say I didn't get my ticket punched on that trip. There are good firefighters and petty ones out there. It was kind of amusing to arrive at my district with a bad eval from my trainer and a good one from the DIVS specifically naming me as part of the reason the crew got a good rating. All you can do is keep yourself safe and do what you know is right. If you can document why you refused an assignment there shouldn't be a problem but I think everybody knows there is a risk associated with bucking the system. Good luck

FC180,
the cloudy trail behind a jet at altitude is a contrail, I believe the joke refers to CDF hoselays being followed up with a freeway built by inmates (A Con Trail).

Just Wondering,
I understand peoples confusion when looking at the cost of a fire, but there are too many factors to evaluate it just on an expense report, I recall several years ago working a USFS fire that burned 70,000+ acres, its cost was slightly less than a 3000 acre BLM, CDF fire nearby, the difference was the USFS fire was in wilderness and there were several fires burning at the same time which took most of the resources (wilderness has a lower priority), the CDF fire started a few days later when many of the other fires were in mop up, plus it was initial attack (gained priority over going fires) and was in a more settled area so had structures threatened, it also used more cooperators (city firefighters) with much higher salaries than the typical USFS employee. There are many reasons a fires cost can go up besides mismanagement.

Something that disturbs me with many of these kinds of questions are those relating to crew comfort, whether its snacks, steaks for dinner, motels or air conditioned tents. I don't know why many seem to think fire crews don't deserve decent treatment when they are at a fire. Just because we like the work why should we be treated badly, would these same people support cutting the troops in Iraq to MREs, water and pup tents? Then why do they think that is appropriate for crews on wildland fires?

While I never expected anything better than a patch of dirt to pitch my tent on and something warm to eat I did enjoy getting better treatment from time to time and I do work better on a full stomach, a decent 6 hours of sleep and the feeling that somebody actually thinks about the living conditions of the fire crews.

Fedfire

Thanks for the good comments and story FedFire. "Do what you know is right." Excellent maxim. Ab.

7/29

I find the cost per acre discussion interesting, but doubt if it really has
anything to do, with whether or not contractor's are used. CDF fires are
typically more expensive, because they pay they're people more, plus portal
to portal pay. The cost of motels and other fringe beny's are
insignificant. It only makes sense to utilize your own folks rather than
contractor's, if you have them available.

Here's a break down of R-5 Forest Service fire cost per acre, by size
class/forest/province/region, averaged over 10 years. I don't think the
2003 fires were included in this.

(See attached file: Region 5 Cost Per Acre.doc)

TC

I can email that to anyone interested, It's a word doc. Ab.

7/29

Just Wondering,

Wow haven't seen such a slandering post in awhile.

I have come away with many questions regarding "Federal Fires". Yet I try not to stir the Red vs. Green operating policy controversy in a effort to maintain peace amongst our agencies. We recognize that CDF and the USFS are very different organizations and operate in very different capacities. Both have strengths and short comings.

I would hope that this forum Ab could be used for productive information sharing and not stirring up the us versus them mentality.

I can only surmise that Just Wondering is a contractor and is pissed because he or she is not being used. CDF has limited use for contracting with private companies for many good reasons. Most of which are economics.

As far as the motel shot across the bow that has always been a point of contention between CDF and the USFS. One, the motel policy is a negotiated MOU item between the union and the department. CDF Firefighters gave up salary and benefits for this bargaining item. Two if you were to do a cost comparison motels when available are more economical than bringing in sleepers, tents, and showers. Three. The rest gained in a clean bed, shower, etc has many safety benefits that are obvious. i.e. (helicopters flying over your tent.)

I will close with the fact that CDF does use the closest resource concept period! Lets try not to go down the road of a pissing contest. Bottom line is we all eat some dirt and smoke in one way or another. Please try to keep the posts civil and respectful of other agencies. I frankly didn't believe one of the posters would have to say this but I will.

CDF Jake

7/29

Just Wondering,

> last I heard, inmate crews are not part of the CDF tool box this season. maybe a CDFer can explain further or correct my "hearing".

> last I heard, CDF or CA OES runs the show on any state lands fires. Although there are mutual aid agreements between the state, feds & local gov't to fight wildland fires, last I heard, no contractors can be employed by state gov't until CA has a ratified/legislatively chaptered budget in place for this current fiscal year that began 0001 7/1/04.

Complaints about red engines parked at local motels is nothing new; for many yrs that has been guaranteed by CDF's union contract. (> grins at your new term, but "con-trails" is not PC in today's PC climate; thought they slept in tents when not ground pounding - not sure where their guards slept).

< personal aside, kudos to the CC kids who became WFFs and responsible citizens.

FC180, "WE HAVE OUR OWN AIRTANKERS and we are not afraid to use them and we can get as many as we want." as many tankers as you want? Surely, you jest!

CRH, based on your version of that incident, seems you and the rest of your crew should have spoken up sooner. a gut feeling often saves lives; bravado can be an additional hazard.

Please, everyone, remember things are not same in every terrain, region, state, county, or situation. As others have said many times, work smart, recognize your abilities & liabilities as you support your crewmembers.

@ 0200, SW wind in lower elevations, a cooling summer breeze from the delta heading into the foothills. yesterday Reno was 98; so new fires in northzone are anyone's guess.

Come home safe everyone,

R5PITA

7/29

John,

I think your figures are alittle jacked up as well as biased. The reason is because you mentioned R6 as a low cost firefighting state, have you ever fought fire in R5? You talked about some fires in R5 and threw out some dollar totals however you don't take into account the city and county that get involved and all the crap that they require like hotels and all that sissy crap. Your argument in R5 holds no water and when you compare it to other regions its like comparing apples to oranges. R5 south so. zone is full of urban interface and when you talk about contract Fire Fighting in South Zone you better be walking on water or you will be eaten alive. We do more than you think like medical aids, which I'm guessing your contract doesn't cover or how about the structure fire maybe the drowning of some person or the hazmat or the vehicle fire or the repairing the DR's office and all that other stuff I reckon your contract doesn't cover that, however we do this stuff because it's our call to duty and it's what the public expects of us. Bottom line is government firefighters will never go away.

What me--

John didn't say govt firefighters should go away. He was just contributing to the discussion on fire costs with some numbers. But as some have said (see above), numbers don't tell the whole story. Much research on fire costs goes on after the season is over. At that time all factors are taken into account to see if there are any financial lessons to be learned. Ab.

7/28

Update on the Sims Fire, on Grouse Creek NW of Hyampom:

No longer just 50 acres, it's 2,000 acres as of 5 PM.
Szczepanik's Team is coming on board.
Something like 14 Type 1 crews and 3 Type 2 crews are on it.

I heard it's burning real good. Some of the youngsters in the Five Waters
extended family got worried by the thick smoke and called even though
it's still pretty far away.

I just hope it's not another Big Bar Complex.

Steep country, lots of snags, take care of each other. LCES!!!!
Mellie

7/28

Ab, Could you please post the trailing/bottom message.
Thank You
RT

The Lassen NF Memorial page
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Two years ago on July 28, 2002, we lost 3 Lassen firefighters in the Engine
11 accident on the Stanza fire on the Klamath National Forest.

Please take a moment today to remember the loss of Steve Oustad, Heather
DePaolo-Johnny, and John Self.

It has been said that the greatest tribute we can pay to fallen
firefighters is to learn from their tragedy and not let it happen again.
Take the opportunity as you are reading this to reflect on your personal
commitment to safety as a core value.

On the brighter side, the two survivors of the accident, Alex Glover and
Ryan Smith are back working on Almanor engine crews again this year. Their
strength and dedication is inspiring.

******************************
Larry Hood
Fire Planning Specialist
Pacific Southwest Region
******************************

Thanks RT and Larry Hood for the reminder.

I did think of that tragedy this morning. The accident happened in my neck'o'the woods more or less. I had met Steve and Heather in passing, it's a small fire community in Northern California and they were nice people. Several R5 Division Chief Meetings ago ago, Heather's dad -- Tony -- gave the most memorable talk. Heather would have been so proud of him -- as proud as he was of her. I feel richer for being able to picture them together. I also feel Heather's loss more keenly for having met her dad. My best wishes to families and friends of Heather, Steve and John.

Firefighters, love and appreciate your families every chance you get. Be safe. Come home safe. Ab.

7/28

PYG's response highlights the difficulty of speaking up in these situations. If CRH had walked off the line that day, he would have been seen as a whiner or an idiot, or lazy, fill in the blanks, since nothing went wrong on the shift. He'd (she'd?) just be the jerk who took the day off because he was scared.

PYG says, "One thing that I would like to say is that your crew boss got his briefing from his superiors and I really don't think they're going to put your life or their divisions in jeopardy."

Our superiors certainly never wish harm on anyone when they issue orders. It's not like war where you know that some soldiers are going to die; fire orders are not issued knowing that some firefighters won't make it back. But sometimes bad orders are issued. No one at Storm King or the Cramer fire intended harm to the firefighters that ended up dead. PYG, I don't think your argument holds up here.

Maybe you're right about how CRH was perceived by the rest of the crew; you and I don't know this person. (On the other hand, how many whiners get 7 years in? They're often gone after one season.) But isn't it at least as likely that it was the complaint that resulted in his being sent down the road?

SR

7/28

The Puget Sound region is capped by mid-to high level smoke drifting
in from the north this morning. Since chances are implausible to ridiculously
implausible it's from widespread eradication activities by the Mounties, I
would surmise that our 'buds in B.C. are experiencing significant forest
fire activity.

S.R. Sparky

7/28

Some info from today from the Straylor. Looks pretty good to me. More like 95% contained.

www.fs.fed.us/r5/lassen/news/newsreleases/2004/7-28-04-straylor.pdf

SoCal CDF

7/28

FC180; what is the difference between using contract helos, dozers,
showers, clerical, even AT pilots, but not crews? Please dont say that
they're more expensive than the other listed contractors. I am not sure
why you told me to get over myself but you didnt answer any of my
questions, they were pointed yes but not venom. If your statement
regarding aircraft is true why all the other resources, motels and air
conditioning? Dont forget CDF is the biggest contractor in the state.
Ab's< I understand the budget thing, but to me if I dont have a budget
all the perks are stopped.
Oh Yeah maybe i shoulda put a hyphen in con-trail

Thanks but still wondering

7/28

Hello.

FYI:
In our local newspaper is a weekly national magazine insert called "American
Profile." The cover article this week is "Smoke Jumpers" by Stephen
Stuebner. The online version can be reached at
www.americanprofile.com/issues/20040725/20040725_4060.asp, but it
doesn't have the pictures that the print version does.

To FC180
Did 'Just Wondering' mean "CONvict TRAIL"?

Tree

7/28

Took a look at http://www.fire.ca.gov/cdf/incidents/Straylor%20Fire_146/incident_info.html
Did not see any airtankers. Where would we find how many air tankers are being used? Maybe ODF should show CDF how to manage cost. The contractors are brought back because of the work they do, not be cause of a union.

stay safe K R

7/28

Just Wondering,

I agree the costs seem to be out of proportion for the Straylor fire, but I also noticed that the Freezeout Fire in WA, so far has cost right around $230 more per acre to just monitor with occasional work with a single type 3 Helo and 13 overhead personnel. The Icicle Fire which has the Trinity Fire added to it, has cost $4,003/acre, nearly $2,000/acre more than Straylor so far. I did some searching, and compared costs/acre with the 2002 fire season in both OR and CA. (I picked 2002 because OR didn't really have many fires in 2003).

Here in Oregon, the most expensive fire/acre I found was $656.39/acre on the Tiller Complex, the cheapest was the Toolbox Complex at $155.72/acre. In OR 5 major complexes burned 768,756 acres, averaging $310.24/acre.

In CA in 2002 the Wolf Fire was the most expensive per acre at $706.86, McNally was cheapest at $303/acre, and the 5 large fires I found info for burned a combined total of 292,982 acres averaging $378/acre.

I think it is interesting to note that most of the fires in OR always have a large amount of private contractors, yet the costs are lower. The Tiller Complex cost taxpayers more per acre, due to local district policies that prevented fighting the fires aggressively due to lack of safety zones which firefighters were told they were not allowed to construct, and also District guidelines that forbid using dozers to construct firelines.. This led to a much longer commitment than would otherwise have been necessary.

John

7/28

TC

Fire is on Grouse Creek on the Lower Trinity RD of the Six Rivers.
It's 50 acres so far, lower 1/3 of a steep slope, veg is a tangle from an earlier fire.
NorCal Team II under Deputy IC Jim Giachino is going to manage it.
(John Wendt (IC) has a son getting married and promised to be at the wedding.
Congrats to all! <smooches> all around!)

Be Safe All, it's really dry here.
Mellie

7/28

I understand there's a new fire on the Six /Rivers N.F. activating a type
2 Team. Anyone have any other info on whats happening there?

TC

7/28

FYI
BLMgirl

This is a Memo that was sent out by Peter Tolosano, R5 Fire Operations Safety Officer.
At the bottom are the links to the 3 reports of the close calls he describes. Ab.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the past two weeks we have had three similar unexpected Fire Behavior
related close calls in this Region. CDF has had similar occurrences on
their incidents also. All three cases were in light flashy fuels. Two
involved engine placement and one involved doing a mobile attack. I am
forwarding the written reports of these incident in hopes that you will
share this information widely with your troopers. The message here is that
we are way ahead of the normal drying trend in this region. Live fuels are
at critical levels from North to South. ERCs are at record levels. Fire
behavior is escalating unexpectedly with extreme intensities.

The good news is that the crews involved in these three incidents
demonstrated that they were following established Safety Protocols. LCES
was established in all cases. Please take time to review these reports and
brief incoming resources on the condition of our fuels and the Expected
Fire Behavior. This is not a fire season to let your guard down. Please
remind our firefighters to:

Post lookouts whenever you are engaged.
Pay attention to basics.
Follow the Ten Standard Fire Fighting Orders.
Mitigate the 18 Situations that Shout Watchout!
Take time to do the job safely.
Ensure you have solid communication established before engaging.
Drive defensively and Safely.
Remember our goal that every firefighter is entitled to a safe fire assignment.
And at the end of the incident everyone goes home safely.
"Be Careful Out There!"

Pine Fire Incident
Citrus Fire Safety Alert
Mataguay Fire Incident

Another appended "Heads Up"

As stated above, it is extremely dry all over California and fire behavior
has been extreme. 1000 hr fuels are in the single digits, 7 to 8. Some
fires are being fuel driven and the 1000 hr fuels are being completely
consumed. It is the end of July and we have conditions that are 4 to 6
weeks ahead of normal drying conditions. Keep your head up, be aware and
be safe.

Doug W.

7/28

To Just Wondering

Whew take it easy. Your venom is very unpersuasive. The reason for no contractors as Ab alludes to is we have no way to pay contractors until there is a state budget, and as I write this on the 28th past noon, there still is no budget. As for your tired invective about hotels and inmates, get over yourself. Maybe the reason this fire was fairly expensive is that WE HAVE OUR OWN AIRTANKERS and we are not afraid to use them and we can get as many as we want. You’ll notice the fire went out as well.

As for your attempted joke about handline, I don’t get it.

FC180

7/28

Yes, I was labeled a complainer, whistle blower,
scared...all of that. It was surprising to me that
after all of the training I went through and but one
year after Thirtymile, that this sort of thing would
still happen.

Whenever we engage a fire, whether it be a large
incident or a 1/4 acre on district, there are things
that must happen. It doesn't feel right when one of
those things is missing, in this case LCES. You're not
running on all cylinders and you can feel it.

The fact that 'nothing happened' doesn't make me feel
any better. I would rather ride on LCES and the Fire
Orders than 'nothing happened'.

I really did feel like a chicken with it's head cut
off. I was talking to the Crwb, Squad Bosses and crew
members. None of them seemed at all concerned. To this
day, none of them can answer this simple question:
What was our LCES?

Taking notes is considered a legal document and can be
used in court. I continue to take notes to this day
and advise others to do the same. It not only helps
remember sequence of events but also makes safety
concerns legitimate.

For those who continue to practice 'cowboy'
firefighting, I think your days are numbered.
Thanks for all the responses, good and bad. It's
helped me to lay this thing to rest.

Special thanks to 'chick on the fireline', your words
were wise...

CRH

7/28

I recently took a tour of the straylor fire in N CA and came away with a few questions.

One, This fire is really remote and managed by a CDF team, why is it that after reviewing the sit report and doing a cost comparison of all the other fires listed (even the ones with known contractors on them) why is this fire the most expensive fire per acre in the country? Is it because of the cost of the massive air conditioned tent city used by the non-law abiding citizens? Or is it because of the cost of every motel between redding and alturas being filled up by red trucks?

Two, Why would there be a standing order of NO CONTRACTORS for this fire when there are dozers and helos contracted to be on the line? Is closest available resource just some nice sounding empty words? I am sure IA was really slow while they waited for the paddy wagons to traverse the state en route. After talking w/the fed folks the comments were "its always been that way", " yes it's hard to see smoke and to be waiting for an hour until all the red army is ordered, then when you are ordered you go sit in staging and let folks who dont really know the area aimlessly look for road access that isn't there" and my favorite " its a f&#%ed up deal for us but it benefits them so it'll never change". I wonder if the bean counters at the state level are ever going to figure this out. Oh I forgot they are probably part of the same union.

I did hear a good one, What does a CDF handline and a jet have in common? A contrail.

Just Wondering

Don't know if lack of a CA budget plays into it, but I heard that Arnold made a handshake agreement on state budget yesterday. Maybe hiring contractors will change as a result of having something to pay them. Ab.

7/28

SUEBEE
a couple more resources. the two larger contract associations both
have listings of Washington based companies.

www.nwsa.net/
and WCFAfirefighters.org are good places with lots of info.

eric at PW

NWSA has a link on the Classifieds page for future reference. Ab.

7/28

Now lets hear the other side of the story from someone
who was there with you. I want you to get someone off
your old crew to tell us their side of the story. To
me your looking for sympathy because your no longer in
the service fighting fire. One thing that I would
like to say is that your crew boss got his briefing
from his superiors and I really don't think they're
going to put your life or their divisions in jeopardy.
And secondly you said that your crew boss kept doing
other jobs and that your squad bosses and the DIVS
complained, that just doesn't add up. Why would the
DIVS complain and not do something about it. I
personally think you didn't get along with whom ever
and they got rid of you. From my experience people
that usually keep records of everything are usually
the biggest pains in the arsses. Sounds to me like
you were a complainer, thats why you weren't listened
to.

Thanks for the site Ab
PYG

7/27

Killer,
Yes the lead plane in the picture is L-88........But it is still a good picture even though it's not Mike and me ;)

Aberdeen.....I think what Killer was getting at is that it was a single drop of a large amount of retardant from a good tank system....i.e. not a SEAT and not a helicopter and not MAFFS. The fact that there is no 150 ft. flames in the picture doesn't mean anything, except that maybe it would be a more "exciting" photograph. I think that that is one of the problems that plays into the hands of those that do not want large airtankers in the system. We are asked and expected to stop these high intensity runs...and when they don't stop, the tankers are represented as being ineffective. When they are used in low to moderate intensity areas (as in this picture.....and remember there may be more just to the right of the edge of the screen) the retardant does exactly what it is designed to do...not put the fire out, but "retard" it. And in this case be much more effective than straight water.

That is all....KCP

7/27

To all ICT3’s:

Have you noticed this change in the new fireline handbook?

On page 110 of Extended Attack; (Of course, read the entire page to see how this relates primarily to ICT3’s)

“The incident may be divided into divisions, but would not meet the Division/Group Supervisor complexity.”

Hmmm.

This was apparently done because under current USFS training specifications, the 3 routes to Division Supervisor are to first be an ICT3, or Task Force Leader or Strike Team Leader (twice). How can any logical supervisory system have an Incident Commander in charge of a group of supervisory employees that he/she is not as qualified as, (has a supervisor), by definition?

This handbook change was necessary, because in some court case in our collective future, management had to build in a CYA.

The catch, were you taught at this last winters ICT3 refresher, (or at any other time), that the Division Supervisors who are assigned by you on a Type III incident, must be less in complexity than regular Division Sups? And just exactly what are the limits of this almost a DIVS?

Suggestion 1: To counter this from both fireline competency and a legal standpoint. ICT3’s should assign their line managers as STL’s, (working on the west and east flanks?), and include in their notes limits of span of control and complexity. {Unless the ICT3 is already a Type II Ops Chief or higher.}

Stronger Suggestion 2: Avoid ICT3 assignments or perhaps the rating itself until after you’ve been at least a Division for a couple years. Just because our system has a few flaws does not mean we each have to accept them.

On an unrelated but it is still driving me nuts issue. Please note that in the US we define the difference between back-fire and burn-out. Not just in an understanding of each but also in who is capable of conducting either. The term back burn is appropriate only in news article quotes by those who deserve to be hit by a borate bomber.

Fuels Guy

www.fire.blm.gov/training/standards/GLOSSARY.PDF (large pdf file)

7/27

Just heard today that the Information Technology (IT) competitive sourcing (outsourcing)
study was awarded in favor of the Forest Service keeping those positions.

What does that have to do with wildland fire you ask? These are the support folks who
keep our computers running and our radios and repeater systems working. They are also
the folks who serve in many valuable positions on our incident management teams.

The big question to all of us is what was the MEO (most efficient organization) that was
awarded.... Can these positions still support fire management activities under the new MEO?

Lobotomy

7/27

A/C Dispatcher,
Thanks for the correction! I forgot Rick was out floating around in one of the FS King Air's.

Aberdeen,
you are correct. Hard to tell what else is going on there...could be a crew trying to get around a hot piece or Air tac trying to hold onto something till the crews get there...Can't tell from the picture. I do know that cooling sections of line ahead of crews, and keeping them cool, is an effective use of retardant whether it be from a fixed wing or rotor wing. Many times if you wait till you have "active flame" it is too late.

What I meant was that this looks like a well placed drop and looks like it will have a definite cooling effect on the hot stuff, which I think is still our objective!

take care!

Killer

7/27

CRH,

Man that sucks when you have too work with people like that! Well atleast you stayed heads up, still spoke out and you didn't let any others pressure you to not speak out. You 1 day will make a good supervisor. Just remember this. I use it or tell myself this when working with the fire handicapped. "now I know what I don't want to be like when I become a supervisor, thanks for the training on how not to be!"

Socal FF

7/27

Killer,

The Lead Plane with T-21 in the Waterfall picture is Lead-88 with Rick Gicla.

A/C Disp

7/27

CRH,

Wow, sounds pretty crazy, that whole situation. Unfortunately, I am sure you are not the only seasonal (or permanent for that matter) that has experienced that situation. IN MY OPINION, this is not surprising. I am somewhat surprised that this is a shock to you. Storm King, Thirty mile, Cramer, these incidents keep repeating themselves, and probably always will. Your documenting the incident is a good idea (as I am sure you are aware), but don't expect it to change things, or make you more right. It's all about the politics, people are afraid to take action, and when it's a seasonal versus a permanent employee, who do you really think is going to come out on top??? I am glad you and your crew were "ok", move on and learn from the past....don't let it become your life, let it be part of your life experience.

Just another chick on the line

7/27

CRH

If firefighters had died as a result of your situation say 2 years earlier ---in 2000, it would
have been your fault 100% for not speaking up. Firefighters got blamed for everything. All
fire deaths have resulted from some violation of the 10 fire orders. But it was like there was
only one acknowledged "HOLE" in the swiss cheese model.

In 2001 Thirtymile started to change some things about where blame was placed OOPS
where lessons could be learned.

In 2003 two people died on the Cramer Fire. There was a USFS investigation and report
with lots of white outs and a second version with less white outs, an OSHA investigation
and report ---and the FS was fined, and also an Inspector General's investigation and report
---that isn't out yet. Soon? (Don't know if all the other investigations besides Fire are good
or bad.)

Should you have walked off, HELL YES, if the situation felt wrong. It's called being an adult
and being accountable! You're the one wouldhave ended up dead.

Today more firefighters that survive are submitting a SAFECOM. My guess, you could still
do that. Anyone know if it's too late?

sign me Not a HOLE!

7/27

Hey all,

Now, I have this issue that I've been trying to lay to rest for two years now. It happened on the Biscuit Fire while I was on a USFS 20 person handcrew. I'll leave the names and whatnot out, but I'd like to have your opinion on it:

This happened on day 10 of a 14 day assignment. We had a crwb that had not taken a crew out for about 10 years (he's usually a strike team leader).

A note: during this entire tour, our crwb would leave to perform other duties: lookout, patrol. Although, the Squad Bosses and Div Sup complained, this behavior continued until the final day. I believed he felt uncomfortable in the role of Crwb and couldn't handle it.

My Issue: We arrived at a DP that had just been cleared by a dozer. Parking was difficult, not to mention the drive up there, it was about 30 minutes off of the main road. We geared up and waited for our briefing from the Crwb. He said we were suppose to follow the dozerline downhill and brush the fireside. There was an SRV crew that was also working the line. He didn't know how far down we were suppose to work. I asked about a SZ down the line because from the map, it appeared to be at least 1/2 mile of dozerline. He stated he heard something about a SZ down the ridge, but wasn't sure. To make myself perfectly clear to him, I said, "so we're working without a SZ?" He said yes. Crwb then stated that the area we were parked in wasn't considered a SZ but, if lucky, a deployment zone. He then laughed and said "our safety zone is to the rigs and drive like hell!"

Now, a Red Flag warning had been issued for high winds over the fire that morning. We had temp's in the upper 90's with RH's in the teens. There had been extreme fire behavior and long range spotting up to two miles. We were on the other side of a canyon from the fire about one mile away.

Our crwb left the crew and went to find a lookout point. Later on that day, our Div Sup informed us that from our Crwb lookout location, he wouldn't be able to see the fire or the crew.

The crew started down the ridge and I was feeling a bit nervous about this whole situation. I keep telling the crew and other Squad Bosses that we shouldn't engage without LCES, Fire Orders in place. They brushed me off. I was the only person on this 20-person crew to say a damn thing!

I broke out my Pocketguide and read over how to refuse an assignment. I was ready to walk off. Luckily, this one Squad Boss whom I yelled at finally walked the line and found our SZ. It was 1/4 away and needed brushing. We were not allowed to brush it due to another Squaddie who was assuming the role of Crwb. We didn't walk our escape route until 6 hours later.

The very next morning, we received a morning briefing from our Div Sup in the exact same area. It was so detailed and refreshing. He covered all the bases and made sure everyone understood him.

When I got back to my district, my boss asked how things went. I mentioned this incident, not to get anybody fired, but, just to find out if I was overreacting. He said by law, he had to report it to headquarters. Well, to make a long story short, headquarters came down and interviewed the Crwb and some crewmembers about what happened. They all stated they felt safe. I have a habit of documenting everything while on fire, so I had notes, the IAP and several maps of the area.

Headquarters and I debated for about an hour over the incident and the outcome was suprising indeed. The final decision was that the Crwb was 50% at fault and I was 50%. I should have said something, headquarters said. What more could I have done besides jumping up and down, screaming my head off and preparing to walk off the line?

My boss told me off the record that because the Crwb was a permanent and I was a seasonal, it would never go farther than it did.

I was not hired back the next season (2003). This season I tried to get on a few other districts and some Shot crews and nothing. I have 7 seasons experience and I am now doing AD work.

What do you think? Was I wrong? Did I overreact? If you need more details to make an opinion, let me know.

CRH

7/27

Killer -

Nice photo of the AT and LP on "Waterfall", but unless my old computer screen is cutting something out, I guess it doesn't show me much except a little smoke in the lower right corner, without any active flames in view. Having flown some as ATGS, I am a believer in using A/T delivered retardant in the right place at the right time, but this photo wouldn't convince me if I had doubts.

Let's hope they all stay flying this year................!

Aberdeen

7/27

Great shot of Jan Riefenberg in the P3 and Lead Bravo 5 with Mike Lynn and
Ken Perry ......Any doubts as to the effectiveness of that retardant?

Lead plane banking left and AT banking right after a drop on the Waterfall Fire.

Killer

Nice photo. Ab.

7/27

Someone asked for info on the location of the CDF Mountain
Home Conservation Camp. It is in Tulare County, east of Porterville,
located, I think in a State Forest.

RB

7/27

Ab, on this anniversary of a very important safety post...
a reintroduction of a very well written post by Hugh Carson
for the readers.

Thanks Hugh for keeping us focused on safety.

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/hcarson.htm

Lobotomy

7/27

Hi Folks,

Can anyone tell me what is happening to the old fire shelters that are
being turned in for the "new" style? I'm trying to round up some as
spares to put on my engines.

Are their any readers from Winnemucca BLM that were involved with
the U140L's - if so could you drop me a note via the Able Ab's.

Thanks,
MTMOG

7/27

Ab:

Late last week this statement of concern was realized by a small group
of retirees who finally decided something from the old people needed to
be said about the Biscuit and the future. I am not sure whether or not it is
of interest to your readership, but we thought we should offer it.

For those who have never fought fire in that part of the world, Biscuit
country is not a fun assignment.

Firemark.

Biscuit Fire photos

7/27

Cordial saludo

Hola, mi nombre es Julio Cesar Hurtado Gahon. soy bombero de la ciudad de Cali, Colombia, Suramerica te escribo por que me gusto mucho tu pagina y parace como yo que tu vida gira al rededor de bomberos, espero podernos comunicar ya que me gusta tener rrelacion con personas de otro paises que tienen la misma aficion.

Agradeciendo la atencion prestada.
Br. Julio Cesar Hurtado G.

very roughly translated:
Cordial greeting

Hello, my name is Julio Gahon. I am a fireman of the city of Cali, Colombia, South America. I write you because I really like your website and I see I that your lives revolve around a community of firemen, I'd like to be able to communicate with you since it pleases me to have a relationship with persons from other countries that have the same one firefighting affiliation.

Thanks for the forum.

7/27

Article on the airtanker.com "Posted by concerned (67.0.202.49) on July 23, 2004 at 13:47:29:

"Neptune Aviation decision delayed" news article indicates that the USFS is still delaying the decision to put the P2Vs on for this fire season. Article still has the spin that they terminated contracts because their is no way to guaranteed their airworthiness, but the reason was that the NTSB said any aircraft contracted for by the USFS had liability attributed to the agency for the aircraft. The affected contractors were not related to the prior accidents in 2002.

Ms N

7/27

Suebee,

I you can try checking the engine tender contract data table on the Region 6 Procurement website. www.fs.fed.us/r6/ppm/fire_procurement.html That list of engines and tenders shows all the contractors running those pieces of equipment in both WA and OR this year. The agreements just came out in the past few months, so the information should be current. There is also a link for the handcrew contracts lower on the page from 2003. Most of the information there should be fairly current also. Good Luck

John

7/27

could you help me out? i'm looking for a map of conservation camps that
the california department of corrections and the ca. dept. of forestry run.
there is one they call "mountain home". do you know anything about it?

need info

7/26

Straylor Fire

The helo was doing recon. 3 people (pilot & 2 observers)
were hurt in the crash: 2 were were medivaced to Mercy
Medical (Redding); 1 was taken by ambulance Mayer
Memorial (Fall River Mills). A CDF Serious Accident
Investigation Team is investigating.

Icicle Fire

One firefighter was released from the hospital; the other
has a fractured pelvis and is still in the Medical Center.

Socal CDF

Best Wishes for speedy recoveries of all. Thoughts and prayers for all. Be Safe. Ab.

7/26

I heard there was an injury yesterday on the Icicle Fire - 2 firefighters
hit by a boulder. Anyone have an update on their condition?

R6 FF

7/26

Does anyone have info on the 2 incidents which occurred on the Straylor Fire on 07/ 26 / 04.
All I know is that a CWN Helicopter crashed, and a few hours later there was a near miss
on the fire line [ hustle to safety zones, but no shelters.]

No name this time

7/26

fire in warm springs oregon 0 percent containment 2500 acres still rocking

doc brown

Thanks for the update, Doc. Ab.

7/26

More info on Digital radios.

Digital radios consume more power than analog radios
due to the extra microprocessors in the Digital radio.
Even when used in the analog mode Digital radios
consume more power.

Why buy a Digital radio when it will only be used in
analog. Two to 3 times the cost, reduced battery life,
reduced coverage area, radio interference causes
digital transmissions to shut down completely.

Another fact is that Digital radios were designed to
use rechargeable batteries because AA alkaline
batteries cannot supply the needed amperage. The AA
batteries internal resistance restricts the flow of
electrical current.

COMT

http://safenet.nifc.gov/notice.nsf/0/6fef46e71aad456587256ed900735504?OpenDocument

TO :
FROM : National Wildfire Coordinating Group
REPLY TO : NWCG@nifc.gov
DATE : 07/22/2004
SUBJECT : SAFETY ADVISORY : RACAL 25 POWER CONSUMPTION

IMPORTANT COMMUNICATIONS NOTICE

RACAL 25 POWER CONSUMPTION

July 20, 2004

Introduction

Power consumption by the new digital (P25) portable radios has been a major concern, and field issue, ever since their introduction into the fire community. Due to the increased amount of electronics within the radio, and the larger band spread requirements (136 – 174 MHz), a digital radio requires more current than an older analog only radio. Non-rechargeable battery technologies have just not kept up with the increased current demands like rechargeable batteries have. The manufacturer's response to their radio's increased current demands has been to build larger cell count clamshells. This, unfortunately, has not been the solution we all had hoped for.

Thales' Racal 25 Current Draw Issue

The Racal 25 radio has never been known for its battery life when operated on their 10 cell AA battery pack (clamshell). This issue has become even more prevalent with their update to the "503" and later board sets. An apparent loss of "talk time" has prompted a look into the cause, and possible, solution to the issue. The National Interagency Incident Communications Division (NIICD), in conjunction with Thales Communications, Inc., has investigated the situation and has come up with the following.

Brief History

In the early stages of testing the new digital P25 radios, it was discovered that the effective communications range of the Racal 25 could be increased if the supplied "cut-band" antenna was replaced with the full band spread Motorola antenna. This prompted Racal to upgrade the antenna connector on their radios and to offer the Motorola antenna as an option. It has recently been discovered that the combination of the Motorola broad band antenna and the later model board sets (503 and above) has caused a significant increase in transmit current requirements.

Testing

The NIICD Engineering and Development Section and Thales Communications have recently performed numerous tests on the Racal 25 utilizing different antennas. The goal of the testing was to reduce the overall power consumption of the radio while still preserving the communications capabilities of the radios. The NIICD tests were conducted within the Division's engineering lab, on the NIFC voice check station and in the field, both portable-to-portable and through a NIFC repeater, on frequencies ranging from 154 to 174 MHz.

A technical report detailing the tests and their results can soon be found on the NIICD's hotsheet web site at www.fs.fed.us/fire/niicd/Hotsheet/Hotsheet.html.

Results and Recommendation

A significant change (reduction) in the Racal 25's transmit current requirements can be achieved by utilizing different antennas on the radio. Within the 162 to 174 MHz frequency range, a reduction of over 50% in transmit current draw can be achieved.

For radio use within the 162 – 174 MHz band, the NIICD recommends the use of a Centurion 495500, EXH-170-SF. The Centurion SXB165SF works almost as well as the Centurion EXH-170-SF. The end-user may not be able to tell any difference between the two antennas. The Centurion ¼ wave, spring base, BNC antenna (with adapter) can also be used. When fully extended, the telescoping antenna works well within this band.

PLEASE NOTE: Even though the above antennas are designed (cut) to operate in the 162 – 174 MHZ band, they do operate in the 150 MHz band without a significant reduction in propagation characteristics and increase in current draw.

For the lower end of the spectrum, the Motorola wideband antenna works very well on the radio.

Additional, Future Testing

Life cycle testing of the 10 battery AA clamshell has not been done since the unit was originally accepted on the DOI Digital Radio Contract. Field testing of several prototypes of the new Hybrid Battery (Li-ion rechargeable battery/charging regulator/AA clamshell combination) was accomplished during the last two fire seasons. The prototypes of the new hybrid battery demonstrated a tremendous improvement in battery life, as well as, having the capacity to operate the radio at high wattage settings. Testing of both the AA clamshell and the hybrid battery will continue this field season. The results of the tests will be published as soon as they are completed.

Stephen C. German
Engineering and Development
NIICD / NIFC

7/26

Please help!!
I have been searching and searching for a directory of Contract Firefighter
Companies in the state of Washington. Is there one???

Thanks muchly
Suebee

7/26

Ab;
Impressive picture of Pot Peak's plume on today's 'They Said'. Where
will it go next. with 2 months yet to run..?

I found interesting the comments on contractor-owned engines; having
been a pioneer of their use back in the '60s. I may have invented the
idea, in R-1 & R-6 at least. We had to "re-invent the wheel" on every
fire because no one was used to it yet. We saw a need for it; worked
long hours (day & night) on fires; got paid little; and were
appreciated... about like early retardant pilots in their Stearman
bi-planes in the late '50s.

Here's yet another version of the Pulaski story. A guy by the name of
Joe Halm actually invented the tool. Joe was Wallace Idaho District
Ranger Ed Pulaski's alternate (assistant) when the 1910 Great Idaho
Fires erupted. Joe, like Ed, was credited with saving his crew, several
miles away along the St. Joe River, by burrowing into an island sand
bar, at about the same time Ed herded his men into a mine shaft at
gunpoint to save them.

That next winter, Pulaski asked Halm to come up with a tool that might
work better than a shovel for planting trees. He went to his USFS
Wallace shop, cut one blade off a double-bit ax, welded it crossways to
create the tool.

When his boss, Pulaski, demonstrated the tool at the 1911 regional
ranger's meeting, it was met with little acceptance. Little did he know
that it would later become the famous "pulaski".

[In a letter: 'Joseph B. Halm 1944']
Ray Kresek, author
"Fire Lookouts of the Northwest"

7/26

Cedar Fire Photos: Anyone know who? Looks like at least one San Bernardino firefighter.

These photos were taken off of HWY 79 near Julian and in the Cuyamaca Rancho State Park, shot last October, 2003. Sorry I don't have the crew name. There was a strike team from S. Cal, and a CDF team helping a local FD.

AH

7/26

My how the list of the "52" and the "Gold 52" has grown! Word gets out
when there is this type of organization that supports the firefighters'
families. Great to see the number of Hotshot Crews listed.

My heart will always be with the "Ruptured Duck" and hope that crew's name
will soon be listed.

Old Fire Guy

Quack!

7/26

This came in last week. I'm playing catch-up on photos... It's great to get breaking photos. I'm trying to get caught up so I can stay on top of them. Ab.

AB;

Thought you would like this picture I just took out my window of the Pot Peak Complex
Plume. Very impressive tonight!

MH

7/26

For those wondering what the "town" of Chicken Alaska looks like -- the Chicken Fire -- here's a pic sent in by the Original RR. Ab.

Chicken Alaska

7/26

Ab,

For everyones info.

cdfbc

Contra Costa Co engine Rollover on July 1 Kirker Green Sheet

7/26

Just got my "52 weeks we remember" pin, patch and decal. Vicki
Minor....thank you.

Old Fire Guy

52 Club, good deal. I'll have to watch for mine in the mail.

Wow, just went to the site and there are a number of new members! Doubled in size! And teams and crews on the 52 Gold list. Rowdy Muir and Tom Suwyn, good for your teams. "Volunteers of the Carbondale Rural Fire Protection Dist", CO. Excellent. A number of hotshot and other crews supporting the wildland firefighter community as well. Readers, get your teams and crews to come on board. I just heard that the Wildland Firefighter Foundation trailer is on the move and can visit you. All it takes is an invitation. Ab.

7/25

ab here is a link to the warm springs fire in oregon

Warm Springs wildfire explodes to 1,400 acres

It was "an acre around 3:30 p.m., said Ken Lydy of Warm Springs Fire Management, but had grown to 1,000 acres within three hours."

doc brown

Must have put up quite a column. Ab.

7/25

Hey fellers,

Just got back from the Pot Peak fire and went to
the library to get a book for my kids. I found this
one children's book that's pretty weird.

It's called HOTSHOTS! by Chris L. Demarest and the
story is F'd up! These so called Hotshots (engine crew
members) get a call to go to this fire. When they
arrive, they all jump out, grab drip torches and
immediately start burning out. The wind is going
uphill and their engines are on top. They start
burning downhill with fuel between them and the
engines.

Anyway, they end up deploying and f'ing up big
time. When they get back to their rigs, they have a
bite to eat and prepare for the next fire. All in a
days work it says.

The author makes it look like deploying is part
of the job. Happens all the time, it's actually
expected.

You should check it out and take a gander.

Have fun and be safe !

LOM

Sorry to hear it's not factual. Chris is an illustrator, I believe. This book is listed on our kids fire books page. It had not been finished when I spoke with Chris on the phone a year and a half ago. He said at that time that he would have it reviewed by wildland firefighters for accuracy.
LOM, how many "saws" would you give it? If it doesn't rate two saws , we'll take it off the page, although perhaps we should leave it on without a link and with a candid review. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the safety issues than anything else (like whether hotshots ride on engines). Little kids don't need to view our wildland firefighting profession as an extreme sport. Ab.

7/25

From Firescribe:

An interesting page from NIFC that explains why we might be higher than
average in acres burned, in spite of it seeming like a slow season. And
where can we still expect action?

www.nifc.gov/news/intell_predserv_forms/season_outlook.html

7/25

Ab, I noticed on your IMWTK page, that there isn't any info regarding when the Pulaski was first created. Thought some might find this interesting! I happened to meet one of the committee members of the Pulaski Project while stopping in Wallace Idaho this last weekend. Lots of information here.

www.imbris.net/~roizen2/

Jessyka

7/25

The last member of the Entiat/Chellan crew was released from the hospital.

JJ

Good news. Ab.

7/24

Just my input on the Waterfall Fire...........I responded with a multi-district task force of type III engines. Reno Fire was there with several type I's. We were A.I. on the fire up in Kings Canyon. As most A.I. goes, we had alot of communication problems with command and throw in 2 low angle rope rescues and you have yourself a mess. Knowing that this incident will be critiqued by everyone with an opinion, I was there and all the firefighters that were in that canyon did the best anyone could in a bad situation. All of the firefighter's fought bravely and showed alot of professionalism. We got our fellow firefighters off the hill safely and learned some hard lessons. But we got to go home! Be safe.

Just a Firefighter

7/23

Holy Cow.... approx. 80 ac. and moving in the coastal forested area (Pacific
County, DNR managed) of Washington State. If the Asbestos Forest is
burning, what does the rest of the summer have in store?

-FireBill

ps> Just came home from a short severity assignment on the Naches RD in
the Okanogan-Wenatchee. I can't say enough good things about the hosting
by the district's FMO and staff. Thanks gang!

7/23

ab red flag warning for central oregon very dry and dry lightning forecast
I think maybe its our turn hang on. lets see what is behind door #1.

signed
Doc Brown

7/23

Ab, please post this on theysaid. Apps close on Aug 9. Thanks. BLM Girl
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Job announcement BLM Fire

Flying at the GS 9/11/12 level. Open government wide.

State Fire Management Planner
Sacramento CA

7/23

Looks like Rax has/had a situation on his hands: www.uniondemocrat.com

Better not lie on those apps, the law will get you sooner or later. I say fire his a$$.

HT

7/23

Firestorm,

I agree with most of what you have to say. One thing I would be careful of is repeating rumors that seem to grow out of proportion. Unless you were there, well you know the rest. I don't know what your experience is with the Salmon-Challis, but from personal experience I can say you're pretty right on about "organizational climate." Ever since Joe Carvhelo left his FMO job, and the return of the centralized fire program back to the districts, things have rapidly slid downhill. It is unfortunate that continued warnings to FMOs, Line Officers, and the Forest Supt, have been ignored for years. And in some cases those warnings have brought on retaliation. My suggestion to forest leadership would be to track down the dozens of good firefighters that have left the forest and actually listen to their concerns. There is a body of knowledge concerning the program that is going untapped.

Line officer concerns are valid. The lack of concern for the individual firefighter has led to some serious safety violations. The current climate would only be speculation, but I have seen nothing that would indicate that there was anything learned from the past... and not just Cramer Fire. There was a post last year by Heli5 that stated that things were in alignment years before those boys stepped on the line, and they continue to be alignment to this day. There are many who wholeheartedly agree.

Do we need another IC removed, no. We need to look at an issue that is systemic, an issue that involves management in the past and its influences on the present situation, or rather condition of the fire program. This needs to be elevated off the forest and taken care of at the Regional or National level.

Yesterday was the first anniversary of the Cramer Fire, do those of us who knew Jeff and Shane owe it to everyone to keep preaching the right, keep pushing until something is changed.

Goathunter

7/23

Vehicle rollover in Alaska with some crew injured. News Release follows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
215 Melody LaneWenatchee, WA 98801
Public Affairs Office:(509) 664-9314; Fax (509) 664-9286
Visit our websites at www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee & www.fs.fed.us/r6/okanogan

NEWS RELEASE

Date: July 23, 2004
Subject: Local Firefighters Injured in Alaska
Contact: Vladimir Steblina, 509/664-9319 or Robin DeMario, 509/664-9292

At approximately 1:30 p.m. Pacific Time yesterday, seven members of a 20-person Forest Service firefighting crew from the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests were injured on the way to a fire assignment on the Boundary Fire near Fairbanks, Alaska, when their transport vehicle tipped over while turning around.

Four crew members were flown to nearby Fairbanks Memorial Hospital. Three others were taken to the hospital via ground transport. The remaining members of the crew were transported back to Fairbanks for rest and debriefing. Most injuries were minor, and none appeared to be life threatening. An emergency medical technician assigned to a hot shot fire crew working in the area was immediately available at the scene to assist in administering first aid.

The injured firefighters are Walter Escobar, Jose Quezada, Adriama Mendez and Rebecca Spies of the Entiat Ranger District and Omar Mendoza, Nestor Blanco, and Miguel Ruvalcaba of the Chelan Ranger District.

The crew, comprised of employees from the Chelan and Entiat Ranger Districts, was being taken cross-country in a military tracked-personnel-transport vehicle when the accident occurred, approximately 1.5 miles past the end of Fairbanks Road. The driver, a member of the Alaska National Guard, was not injured. The vehicle apparently became high-centered on a tree stump while backing up to turn around, and the rig rolled over on its side. Four of the crew members were riding in front with the driver and were not injured.

The accident is now under investigation by personnel from OSHA, the State of Alaska, and the Forest Service.
###

7/23

Goathunter,

If an "Organizational Climate" of unreasonable risk taking exists on the <Cramer Fire> Forest, the current investigation team should get to that. I heard that the Line Officer on the forest at the time of the Cramer had a mindset to never authorize helo pickup of individuals or crews, even once several years ago when there was a borderline medical necessity. <"They"> made them hike out, said no helos in the wilderness, even the seriously struggling (I think dehydrated, overheated) firefighter had to struggle to trek out, taking more than a day, I think. His crew was anxious for him. No fire experience or fire safety awareness on the LO's part, that I'm aware of. Now this kind of overhead attitude creates a climate of a certain type.

I'm not in that region now. I don't know whatswhat today, or last week on that forest, I don't even know if the line officer has been relieved of duty following Cramer, but I hope the investigating team looks into the overhead mindset of non-fire people that could be a hole in the swiss cheese. It may be a stretch to equate helo non-use to downhill line construction with safety zone above and out of touch with lookouts, but who knows...

I'm also not saying that anything was done wrong in this instance on Cabin Creek. When new firefighters come on following deaths, they're edgy. In the old days crew supts sometimes set up scenarios, sometimes on Rx burns where their crew was run out by fire, to give their people the chance to look the dragon in the mouth. Not much "live fire" experience gained on Rx today. Lots of edgy newbies. Few supts with that kind of mindset or experience.

Firestorm

7/23

Anxiously Waiting and Ab - RE CDF hiring:

I have not seen anything formally in writing regarding hiring for the type 1 crews that were supposed to go to Butte and some of the closed Youth Authority Camps. I have heard a rumor that the Department of Finance denied a request that these crews be funded out of the state’s emergency fund. This would mean that money would have to come from somewhere within the existing operating budget. There was also talk that CCC might staff the camps.

I don’t believe there are any line items in the budget to fund the camps, but it could be that someone is waiting to see how things shake out before they start a shell game to fund the crews. Again, this is just rumor and perhaps someone else has better information.

As for the regular Fire Fighter positions (on engines) it is business as usual with the addition of extra Fire Fighters in Southern Ca. These positions are filled, but school will start soon and there will probably be some fill in hiring done.

cdfbc

7/22

Icicle (fire near Leavenworth WA) update from one set of eyes (and tired legs). Good day yesterday, test fire at A/D break went well. WADNR FLE tied in A/B break. Over 17000’ of hose in DIVA.

C64

From another source: "Suppression resources were able to hold the fire within the existing perimeter despite higher temperatures and lower relative humidities." Well done. Ab.

7/22

CDFers

Does anyone know if the holdup on CDF hiring on summer firefighters is CA budget related? If so any ideas if new kids should hang on? Or does the state budget have nothing to do with hiring this far into fire season?

Ab.

7/22

Hey, how about some more discussion about the
happenings on the Salmon-Challis. Is this some kind
of cover up, should we fire this IC, or maybe we
should should actually look at crew dynamics and
training? Something's amiss overthere.....

Goathunter

Investigation is underway. Ab.

7/22

Hey Ab.

Just a note to put on They said--I believe that this
is how its done. We are a bit short on the Willamette
National Forest--McKenzie River Ranger District in
Oregon. We may have a few openings on our 20 person
crew. It would be for student hire only and the
person must already be red carded--we can pack test
and refresh if needed. Again it must be only students
because there would be no time to go through other
hiring sources now. We would start them at any time
and work them through September and possibly October
if funding provides. I am not sure how you do this
with contacts, but I can be reached at
bradoen@yahoo.com, bjoen@fs.fed.us, (541) 822 7248.

Thanks,

Brad

7/22

We're pleased to announce Eagle Gear is now advertising on our Classifieds Page. Eagle Gear has been providing competitive pricing, excellent customer service and fast delivery since 1990 for wildland fire web gear, packs, and personal protective equipment. They offer a free catalog, 30 day return policy and lifetime repair or replacement of all their manufactured products. Their recent merger with Crew Gear will allow one-stop shopping for wildland fire, structure fire, EMS, police, hazmat, and SAR based products.

We appreciate our viewers giving our advertisers the opportunity to assist them with their emergency needs. Don't forget to tell 'em Ab sent ya!

7/21

Here is a link address to Alaska for fire info.
www.dnr.state.ak.us/forestry/fire/current.htm

NA

NA, thanks for the note here, we already have that link on the US Fires, 2004 page under Alaska. We have the BLM link also. Ab.

7/21

Info relating to teams and specific fires: A few days ago, I found a great website maintained by the Joint Information Center for the fires around Fairbanks. I believe it was posted through the Alaska Division of Forestry with daily updates. I can't find it now, but maybe someone using a different search engine will have more success.

Often incident management teams maintain webpages through their regions and will post updates there. This isn't very intuitive for the public, but that's the way it is.

Firefighting in Alaska. You asked for general information about what family members might be experiencing, here it is. For starters, fire camps in the lower-48 begin to seem like the Hilton compared to what's available in Alaska. If ground has been freshly cleared to provide sleeping areas, bugs will be out by the billions. Showers, hot meals etc. are big maybes. That said, I remember some ladies cooking their hearts out for three meals a day (plus fresh cookies every afternoon) at the tanker base in McGrath so you never know what you might find.

As far as firefighting: fuels, weather and everything else can be quite different from most fires in the west. People cannot trust what they're seeing with their eyes if they're interpreting it based on lower-48 experience. Black spruce can burn like crazy while its practically standing in water.

Still Out There as an AD

7/21

http://fire.ak.blm.gov/

In response for links to Alaska's fires. The Bureau of Land Management is running some pages for the individual fires and complexes.

Dan

7/21

Boundary Fire, Fairbanks AK

www.pnw3.com/boundary/index.html

: )

DD

Thanks, added it. Ab.

7/21

Oh boy, I know something to contribute.
Here's a list of the hot shot crews on the Alaska fires:
http://fire.ak.blm.gov/docs/misc/type1crewlist.asp

I look here for maps, second from bottom.
http://fire.ak.blm.gov/docs/maps/maps.asp

My brother showed me this site and theysaid and the family site before he left.

Billie

Good brother. Ab.

7/21

COG,

Here are some of the things the down-south crews have gone through since getting up to AK and heading out to fires:

-There are a lot of skeets. Even those who have visited the tropics and think they know something about mosquitoes have discovered there are a lot more in AK than they ever imagined.

-Their feet are wet and stinky. Within 5 minutes of putting on clean socks, guess what? Their feet are wet and stinky.

-It's raining.

-You can put fire out by whacking tundra with a spruce bough. Or a burlap sack.

-That military mosquito repellant in the AK jumpers firepacks? That stuff you've been wiping on your face? Yeah, it works great for starting campfires too. Save some though, you need it for the skeets.

-If you need to answer a call from nature, it's a really good idea to do so under the mosquito netting in the firepacks. I learned this one the hard way. Have I mentioned the skeets?

-That face netting works well for skeets. If only it did anything for no-see-ems.

-They probably want to keep a clean camps. The bears are bigger than skeets.

-It's really hard to walk on tussocks.

-They're probably making fridges for their food by cutting down to permafrost, placing food in a garbage sack, and then putting the tundra plug back in the hole. Instant fridge.

-They're hoping that no one forgets they're out there. Your only commo is usually with the planes that head out and fly to your fire to talk to you.

-If they're by a river, they wish they had fishing tackle.

I'm sure I left something out...

SR

7/21

AB Please post

A Company is looking into the feasibility of providing a Type 1 Helicopter with a 1000 Gallon Fixed Tank removable can be replaced with a 1000 bucket, Equipped with a Medivac Extraction winch with a Medical crew. Could also be crewed with a Rappel crew size undetermined at this time may also have FLE capability. Crew and Aircraft would operate in accordance to IHOG Standards as well as the various directives contained within the Federal Agencies.

Any thoughts of need for this service or additional capabilities are sought from the current fire communities as well as those who have served before you.

Also anybody had any experience with the product THERMO GEL? Thoughts on this product?

FUGLY

7/21

Abs

Maybe this is the fire that Salmon Sally is thinking about:
www.headwatersnews.org/pr.fireinvest.html

SITL

Yep, that's it. Ab.

7/21

Ab,

With so many "lower 48" Type I and Type 2 crews now in Alaska, can you provide links to those fires? Also, I'm learning how different fire is in that region! Anybody out there have general information to share with families so we know what the guys and gals are going through? Thank you.

COG

We would link to such individual sites if they existed. I looked a week ago and could find none. Teams usually get incident sites up and running. I think those fighting all the fires in remote areas of Alaska have their hands so full there's no time for web pages. Anybody find any, let us know. Ab.

7/21

Over the weekend there was a fire on a creek which is near Cramer Creek. There were about 20 or so firefighters trapped. Similar scenario to the Cramer Fire. They were above the fire and they had no communication with their spotter. They had to drop their packs and run. Luckily they all made it but were really scared. The powers that be don't want them to talk with anyone about it.

Idaho Salmon Sally

Anyone know more about this? Ab.

7/21

Yesterday (day before) the NDF buried one of their own, Captain Doug Paul (49), a 27 yr veteran of the dept. Doug died in his sleep after calling in sick for his shift on 7-14; his crew got the news during initial attack on the Waterfall Fire outside of Carson City. Several crewmembers left the fire to help with the family. Doug was a great father, a single dad, with 3 children still at home.

Doug was known throughout the Sierra Front for his involvement on an incident 20 yrs ago this summer known as the "Moundhouse Fire", also out of Carson City, at which Doug's type 3 brushtruck was bent into a horseshoe by what was later called an "extremely low retardant drop". Doug's engine was calling in the report of a firefighter running through the flames (that individual later became the fire's fatality) when the drop occurred, resulting in serious injuries to Doug and his firefighter. Doug lived in pain from his injuries for the next 20 yrs., with numerous operations and hospital stays to remove glass from his head and eyes. This incident has been used in wildland training classes internationally.

After getting through the Waterfall Fire, where news of Doug's death spread as quickly as the fire itself, and thinking of some timely anecdotes for possible use at his service, several things really jumped out. IA the first afternoon on the Waterfall incident was nothing shy of incredible, with outstanding efforts by Black Mtn, Logan, and Diamond Mtn Hotshots, the Slide Mtn crew from Incline (lost 2 members to injuries and came back to the line), and the Reno Fire Dept. strike team. These individuals pulled long and hard, and many homes were saved by their efforts. The whole organization went above and beyond... the fire became not only their job, but their emergency. The group effort was one we can all be proud of.

For Doug- go into that long night in peace, old friend, your pain has ended... your memory lives on in those that knew you, with stories to be told over beers and in chow lines for years to come. Yesterday you were carried by eight friends to your final resting place, but somehow I feel that you carried us all through one hellish afternoon in the hills above Carson City, where you lived. As we drove off the line, with eyes fluttering and heads bouncing off doorposts, I swear I heard your voice saying to all the bro's that have gone before, "those poor guys aren't even making overtime, yet."

An account has been set up to help care for Doug's children through Wells Fargo Bank (account #6732217630) with his sister, Teresa Dees, administering the account. NDF firefighters would like to thank both the IAFF and the wildland community for their assistance and support during this difficult time.

Be safe out there...
Willy

Our condolences, and good wishes for his children, his sister, other family and friends. Ab.

7/21

We have a weekly internet radio program, "Firehouse Gourmet" which airs on www.homelanddefenseradio.com.
Could you recommend a firefighter we could interview who could share a recipe? The interview would be by telephone and would take 5 minutes. We can be reached at (703) 894-1097

Marlis Majerus
News Director

Anyone interested, give 'em a call.
I could share Abercrombie's Southwestern White Chili. Oopsie, doesn't meet the criteria: they say it has to have been served in a firehouse. No firehouses in my neck'o' the burning woods. Ab.

7/21

I am posting this link in reference to the Safety Review thread.

Mission Oriented Command:
www.baltdefcol.pims.org/documents/bdcol_auftragstaktik.html

It is a bit 'out there' b