"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
August, 2004
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
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| 8/31 |
To any that can answer this:
I'm looking for information on what each different region considers when ordering a crew that should be self sufficient. Is there a difference in ordering a self sufficient crew that is striclty Forest Service personnel vs a crew made up of All non federal employees or a mix of federal employees?
Do you expect the crew to use pcms or travel cards to take care of their own lodging and meals if the assignment is a severity detail or do you have BPA's set up to take care of the personnel's needs? Do you treat a single resource or small engine module differently from a handcrew in regards to feeding and housing during a two week detail?
I'm a bit confused on this subject, as it appears the interpretations from region to region are different. This has caused undue conflict on crew dispatches. When a resource order comes in for a type 2 or type 2IA crew that is self sufficient, what do you expect?
Anything will help,
JT |
| 8/31 |
backburnfs
The exposure wouldn't be deemed an accident. The resulting rash... if medical treatment is needed... would cause it to be an
accident.... hmmm you are right... knuckleheaded thinking. lol
So...the question is how does your agency treat poison oak incidents if you have to visit a Doctor for medication...shots...or steroids? Do they fill out the paperwork... identify it as an accident and cover your medical bills?
Oliver |
| 8/31 |
Yep, it has been a slow fire season and the "animosity" has come out here and there on TheySaid. Good points EVERYONE, regarding PPE, management, etc., but back to what we do.......
Friends, I may be wrong but it really does look like a major catastrophe is about to take place in the Southeast United States. Hurricane Frances has dead aim on South Florida right now, not to mention what it is already doing to Puerto Rico and is about to do to the Bahamas area (Tuesday afternoon).
Remembering that we wildland firefighters are a caring and all-risk community we need to be ready to respond to this apparently imminent situation. I, for one, have my bags packed for a no-frills-at-all adventure that will likely be much like that of Hurricane Andrew over a decade ago.
There will likely be a load of human misery this time that firefighters need also to prepare for.
I HOPE I AM WRONG!!
NMAirBear |
| 8/31 |
Oliver, you have some real knuckleheads running you safety program if they
say poison oak exposure is a preventable accident. What do they say about
Bee stings? I have never heard of anyone getting dinged for safety
because of either of those hazards. I learned something new today so I
guess I can go home.
Backburnfs |
| 8/31 |
Please post on TheySaid.
Gracias!
Dick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
International Association of Wildland Fire
Call for Papers
Due: November 1, 2004
10th Anniversary Conference
Wildland Firefighter's Human Factors Workshop (1995)
University of Montana
Missoula, Montana USA
April 25-28, 2005
Suggested Topics for Papers:
* Lessons Learned * Leadership
* Human Factors in Aviation * Risk Management
* 10 Years of Progress * The Fire Culture
Please send your abstract of 500 words or less to Dr. Bret Butler at the
Missoula Fire Science Lab NLT November 1, 2004.
Email: bwbutler@fs.fed.us
Questions? Call 406-329-4801 |
| 8/31 |
Pulaski, I see you don't call your self Combi, guess some things don't need
to change. I was in a middle management position for 8 years and tried
like hell to get things, mostly small things changed. Things like getting
engine foremen up grades from 5 to 6 in the PNW and even get them PSE
appointments since they were all mostly temps then. Even though 20 miles
south in the almighty R-5 they were all 7's and 8's and PFT's. Things like
working with the private contractors to help them improve their crews and
engines. I have been in the battle 29 years so I guess I have experienced
my fair share of red tape and stupidity and maybe even earned some b**ching
rights. So don't spew the old "if you're not part of the solution you're
part of the problem" junk at me.
I went back to herding crews around after South Canyon because that is
where I thought I could be a bigger part of the solution, actually feel a
sense of accomplishment, sleep at night and be able to look at myself in
the signal mirror and not puke. Besides that is where my heart is.
I have nothing against those WITH EXPERIENCE who want to move up in the
organization, God knows we have plenty of clueless fast trackers out there
who are in positions with decision making authority. I just know that I
personnaly cannot deal with burro-crats, political appointees and the rest
of that ilk on a daily basis and keep from going postal on someone. So it
is safer for everyone that I stay out of the office if you get my drift.
If you can deal with all that and keep your sanity then by all means" STEP
UP" as the Ghostdude says.
I will continue to exercise my right to b**ch and make what ever small
contribution I can, to make things better from the ground up, because that
is where the people that matter most to me are.
Most of this jive about pants and MTDC is only a symptom of bigger problems
with management but it is a safe subject that we can discuss without really
getting depressed.
Mellie, thanks for the support as always kid. God Bless.
JUSTSAYNOTOGSA |
| 8/31 |
My my, feelings seem to have been running high as of late. Came back to find all this animosity! This is what comes of a slow season I suppose. Though
interesting points have been brought up.
I think this is an excellent time to point out a thing or two. When I am out in the field I inevitably hear disgruntled comments in reference to those of us who play desk jockey in the business side of things. Many comments are much like those I see here about how they “don’t know how things really work on the ground!” The truth of the matter is that the people working higher up in fire ARE ex-groundpounders. People who were on, and in many cases ran, Hotshot crews, engines, helicopter modules, etc. They were there, many of them still go out, frequently as IMT members and know exactly what’s going on. When bogus policies come down the pipe they aren’t coming from them. They are coming from other places like the Office of Personnel Management or the National Transportation Board, and the like. The folks at the regional and national levels are TRYING to do what they can for the guys and gals on the line within the constraints (and there are MANY) of the budget and policy handed down to them. Most of them fight the good fight. When they get defeated and try to make the best of what they have been handed they get flack from the field. Despite the fact that it can be a thankless job they keep at it. So keep that in mind next time you go off on them. They aren’t usually the mindless bureaucrats.
OD |
| 8/31 |
To Pulaski -
Thank you. Your comment meant a lot.
"Wisdom tells one where to stand when squirrley winds surround you."
Thanks Pulaski for the support. - (Ghostload II) |
| 8/31 |
I'm curious to learn how other agencies handle poison oak infections as personal injury accidents. My agency determines the accident to be non-preventable if a pre-treatment such as Tecnu or Oak and Ivy is used prior to the exposure and the person develops a poison oak rash and has to seek medical help for the treatment.
If a pre-treatment wasn't applied, the poison oak occurrence is considered a preventable accident if the person had to seek medical treatment. This can lead to loss of safety credits and disciplinary actions.
Questions
1. Is the above determination of preventable and non-preventable accidents consistent with your agency's policy or direction?
2. On large fires, with an influx of FF's from non-infested points of the country, do you feel we do an adequate job at the briefings of describing prevention mitigations with regard to poison oak, ivy...sumac?
3. A large part of the population has natural immunities to poison oak. Is there an allergy or medical test that individuals can take to help them develop a personal safety plan they can use when dispatched to or working in areas with a high likely hood of poison oak exposure?
I personally don't suffer from the effects of exposure to poison oak. My early childhood was spent in Southern Oregon wrestling in the scratch and itch plants with cousins and building forts from old growth poison oak. My son on the other hand can get poison oak from an internet picture of this vile plant.
The importance to me is to help my crews develop prevention and mitigation standards for anything that affects their health and safety. And as important ...I think I need to make sure they aren't charged with a preventable accident as the result of working in and around poison oak considering their own susceptibility to the toxins.
Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated
Oliver
Poison oak is a real problem in norcal. On the Sims Fire near Hyampom
at one time 8 shot crews had it, well more than 100 firefighters. It
mimics other local vegetation in leaf type and climbing or bushy growth
habit. Sometimes you don't know you've been in it until the rash breaks
out, even if you know the evil weed. If you do recognize it, you often
have to work in it anyway to build line. Ab. |
| 8/31 |
Abs, and all:
This is one of those times when my military experience comes into play.
I've been in the military for just about 11 years. If you've even been on a big Army or Marine Corps base, you've seen all the cool nifty stores just outside the gate just ready to sell Joe all the cool nifty gizmos and gadgets he needs to fight a war, but Uncle Sam didn't issue to him. There are cool new rucksacks, better boots, socks, lighter weight helmets and hats......if someone can use it in combat, a store sells it. And soldiers buy it. Everything from uniforms, to boots, to holsters and rifle cleaning kits. Soldiers have been buying the stuff for years. Why you ask??? Because most of it works better than what was issued or just isn't available through the military supply system.
After many many years of this, the Army and Marine Corps have finally paid attention to what soldiers and Marines wear and use on combat. The US Army Natick Soldier Center
(NSC), www.natick.army.mil, is the facility that develops new equipment and clothing for the Army and Marine Corps. They are the people that brought you those MREs you all have come to love.
During Operation Iraqi Freedom the NSC deployed teams to see exactly what equipment soldiers were using in battle. This lead to what the Army calls the Rapid Fielding Initiative, RFI. The RFI takes commercially available, off-the-shelf equipment and puts it in the supply system and rushes it to the troops. That doesn't mean someone walks into Wal-Mart with a credit card and buys all out the Garmin GPSes on hand. The equipment is tested and proven, but through an accelerated process.
If MTDC and GSA could take these lessons learned from the military, some of us may actually have less to gripe about. Take the pants for example. If GSA could guarantee one of the current kevlar pants manufacturers a large enough contract, which would be accomplished by canceling any more production of the current "BDU Nomex", within 18 months we could probably have enough kevlar pants to outfit all federal wildland firefighters with 2 pair of pants. I don't work in the textile industry, so no one quote my production figures. After another 12 months we could be stocking the stuff in the caches.
For this to work however, a few things must happen. The product, pants in this case, must still be manufactured by who ever makes them now. Don't just buy the concept and finder a cheaper manufacturer. That defeats the purpose. Keep the stuff made commercially and the quality will keep up too. Also, we must be proactive in our efforts. Send honest suggestions to MTDC and GSA. Provide quality feedback.
That's enough on this topic for now.
But remember one of Murphy's laws of Combat, "The side with the simplest uniforms usually wins."
EMT_MB |
| 8/31 |
JT great post,
Well you also left out gloves, when you turn them inside out you can toss brush for hours.
The shirts are great! I even wear them when going to the local watering hole, hunting, and if you leave a few buttons un-done its great on the dance floor!
Did MTDC design the flagging tape? And the smokejumper canteens are great, they fit into the packs good, and you can hall quite a few of them in your pack, but what I want to know is MTDC going to design a spout where you can pour water from the cube boxes?
Maybe the reason why MTDC grounded all of the planes is because they are designing
their own plane for fire use?
But with Leslie A at the helm, this might be a good turn, someone new in office, so maybe the pants will get better? If not we always know we can get them from National Firefighter.
What is up with this season, AK is still going, don’t they normally have rain by now?
And the jumpers are down in the lower 48 by now, so they must have some good xtream hackysack going on.
Oh wait yes that is what MTDC needs to design is a good MDTC approved hackysack!
Stay Safe,
RR
All tongue in cheek I assume. MTDC had nothing to do with grounding ATs
and there is no plan for designing their own plane. Ab. |
| 8/31 |
Old Fire Guy,
This little snippet addresses what the USFS requires for wildland fire clothing, GSA procured or personal purchases........ FYI, It's from a safety advisory from Ed H. posted on the NIFC Safety site (07/08/2002). I'm not sure if there are any other policies out there, but what we've been told in the field is.... "If you wan't
something special, go buy it yourself"...... But it must meet the below standard.....
Forest Service policy requires for all fire line duties that flame-resistant clothing must meet the minimum protection requirements specified in the National Fire Protection Association Standard NFPA-1977, Standard on Protective Clothing and Equipment for Wildland Fire Fighting. To be NFPA-1977 compliant, garments and equipment are required to be certified by a third party. Two companies do third party certification to NFPA 1977, Safety Equipment Inc (SEI) and Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL). Currently SEI certifies gloves procured through GSA. Underwriters Labs performs the majority of the certifications for NFPA 1977. The UL Classification Mark for these products includes the UL symbol , the word "CLASSIFIED" above the UL symbol, and the following additional information:
PROTECTIVE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT FOR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING
IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION STANDARD ON
PROTECTIVE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT FOR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING
NFPA 1977-(issue date)
(Control No.)
The labeling information may be abbreviated as follows:
PROTECTIVE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT FOR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING
IN ACCORDANCE WITH NFPA 1977-(issue date)
(Control No.).
Rogue Rivers |
| 8/31 |
Dick Mangan:
Thank you. I don't know you, don't even know if I i've ever run into you while up in Region 1.
MTDC has done a lot right. The Missoula engine, model 52 style, while it does have some design quirks with access to bolts and such, its a versatile engine that can easily be adapted to different needs and regions.
I've never heard of any person complain about his or her fire shirt. They fit, they're offered in a variety of sizes, and they hold up (unlike the cargo pants).
The redpack is also a great design. It can get a bit cramped, but all in all it holds 2 weeks worth of gear.
There are many items that should be left up to the public sector: Headlamps, line gear, hard hats, boots, socks, underwear, sleeping bags, tents, off road/4wd frames and base vehicles.
JT |
| 8/31 |
JUSTSAYNOTOGSA:
Hmmm..are you taking the easy way out? or do you just want to maintain b*ing rights by keeping everything like it is. Yup, the GSA pants pretty much suck, although I have never seen the seams coming apart problem that folks have posted about (granted the years when I spent my fire time looking in the dirt they were probably still using horse hide thread). But the quality of GSA stuff is not the point in my thread.
Its your comment "Don't go over to the dark side, Ghostload is full of it. All the talk about the "Higher Calling" is a smoke screen...." that has brought me out of my recent lurker mode. *long pause in composition here as I wonder why I even bother*
I dont think I can begin to comprehend all the hassles, red tape & hoops management folks go through, but if one was to take your advise there wouldnt be any
decision makers who have spent a lick of time on the line. I dunno, maybe we are closer to that now than I comprehend. But what I will say is that if you are not willing to be part of the
solution, there is a good chance you are part of the problem or one of those who just wants to sit back and complain.
There come a day soon when I have the opportunity or necessity to move on out of fireline operations and into a decision maker type of position. Will I take it? Your flippin A Im going to take it. Why? Because there are things that can and should be better and Id rather be one trying to improve things than...well, that other type.
OK, back in the early 80's there were several different types of new nomex pants out for evaluation. I never got to try any, but I know some who did and there were a couple of types that folks really liked but I never saw any change until the recent brush pants came out. Anyone have any ideas? Dick?
Later all...and play it safe out there on the line.
Pulaski |
| 8/31 |
Redbeard,
No apologies to me. I just call it like I see it. Oh, the harsh criticisms, I've dished out my share of them too, chances are sometimes to the wrong person. But Dick can take care of himself from what I've observed.
(<psst> Redbeard, when apologizing even to Dick, watch out putting a capital "H" on the "Him". Sometimes those scientists, ya know, can let that stuff go to their head ... um, clearly not Dick, but some other non-fire scientists I've known expect to show up in the bible before eternity's over...)
Ghostdude <lmao, Dude>, ya gotta admit that take on your moniker is sooooo good!
I appreciate those who step up to higher management and I'm glad enough do. I looked once and most of the FMOs in R5 were former hotshots. Incredible work ethic, cando attitude, funnier than all get
out, think outside the box. It's not easy to work in the bureaucracy. Few probably understand what fire management does and with what effort -- to take care of our people. Pressures from the top and pressures from the bottom... But you "Apparel Approver" management types, how about try the tight crotch pants yourself over a season of fighting fire? If the pants don't hold up and aren't roomy enough, just reject them. You "Tool Approver" management types, if the pulaski heads fall off, approve and cache a better quality brand. Good grief. We can't have the groundpounders fighting fire with only the crooked handle! What's with the agency attitude that we can always just barrrreeeeely make do, even when it's more economical longterm and safer if we don't make do that way???
You leaders of the groundpounders, you're remarkable! Whether you move on to higher management or continue to share the WISDOM in your current leadership role, thanks for your contributions to the young of this profession. Thanks for hanging in there for all our sakes.
Public Service. All who follow their calling embody it.
JUSTSAYNOTOGSA, I'm with you! We definitely need a few more good fires!!
Mellie
ps Joatmon, your pulaski handle comment last week was too funny!!! (I've been wondering, is your moniker really J.O.A.T. <slight pause> M.O.N.?) If so, good for you! Time will change the N to
All! And if I guessed wrong, none of this will make sense to you anyway! (what's she been smokin?) |
| 8/31 |
They say if we dont like the gsa pants then fill out the complaint card.
Well we dont need to, all gsa needs to do is look around and they will see all the ways they can make it better.
so zone fire |
| 8/31 |
all quiet on the western front. with cooler temps in most states lots of seasonals went home or back to college with less change in their bank account than expected.
but, it ain't over until it's over! Sept in R5 is state fair time (northzone), one year it may rain, next it will be 114. southzone has yet to pay heed to anyone's calendar!
OLIVER, your humorous & thought provoking dissertations are always a welcome read! now, about Nomex 14 days wear & WFF apparel: please explain to the less informed how important it was to insure those old Nomex were laundered appropriately to retain their fire retardant properties. I forget, with or without fabric softener added to the rinse cycle> < wink, wink, ;)
question: any info about cleaning those bulky "suits" the sky jocks wear?
have a happy and safe Labor Day, all!
northzone5 |
| 8/30 |
Fire pants for 14 days? Hell yeah! I wouldn't trade them in for a pair that had been washed in cold water with some cheap GSA soap. Wouldn't want the boys playing with that crowd! Besides it keeps people from sitting at my table at breakfast and dinner wanting to talk nonsense about the piss poor briefings or being assigned to a demented DIVS.
When I'm elected grand poo-pah I will turn the design and construction of PPE clothing over to Carhart or maybe even to the people who sew that fricking little monkey to all of their garment lines. Double layered at the front...gusseted crotch... deep pockets with a side pouch for my saw wrench. (insert Tim Allen Grunts here)
Also I think the perfect pair of fire pants should have padding for the buttock area. This would add some protection when I tell someone to kiss my arse. Protection for who is another topic.
Remember when we didn't have Nomex? Everyone wore uniforms of polyester blends. Green Loden jeans from JC Penney. Wranglers and Levi's and the preppie's wore Lee jeans? Metal hard hats...dented and scratched. The only thing we had in common was our boots. Whites...West Coast and Danners.
Drinking from shared one gallon canteens...refilling from a stream. Can you spell girja...girahedar...Beaver Fever?
Original MRE'S ...C-Rats. Every key chain had a can opener to open the cans of beans and weenies leftover from World War II.
Ahhh...the good old days. <snort> I wonder what the fire fighter of the future will wear and use? Probably indestructible garments made from fibers found on Mars. Escape Routes would be obsolete. Everyone would have their own quantum mechanics strings identified and programmed into transporters like Captain Kirk used. No need for a safety zone. Just call Incident base and ask to be beamed out. Hopefully someone will be monitoring the communicators. AAR'S would investigate preemptive transports to the shower or chow lines.
No more poison oak! Transporters would scan and eliminate alien life forms like poison oak.
Seriously...
Until the future gets here I think it's healthy and productive to be pressing the issues of form , comfort and function of the gear and garments issued to each FF. Experimentation leads to better products. I can't think of a better group, than the ground pounding... dirt flinging... brush cutting... tree falling... and flame fighting fire fighters to product test every new gadget and garment that shows up in the profession. We do this everyday of every fire season. However I do think fire fighters need protection from liability and injury as they try out new gear and garments developed outside of the normal GSA and Federal testing center pathways. How to provide this protection, if it can be provided, will take more brain power than I possess.
As for feed back to GSA/MTDC ...Maybe a blind draw of names representing every FF position would produce different ideas and solutions at meetings sponsored by MTDC. Blind draws would provide the diversity of thought and representation. Kind of like mixing the insane with the sane and not knowing who's who. Could result in less representation from those that want to get along and more voice to those that want to get it on and get'er done.
The money will be there... Maybe fewer ATV's in camp to deliver cold bottled water and supplemental snacks to the camp slugs could pay for upgrades to FF'S needs? (couldn't help it...my apology's to the many fine camp slugs I've met over the years.)
Oliver |
| 8/30 |
Hi Folks,
Based on the content of the board it REALLY MUST BE A SLOW SEASON to be hashin' out trousers...But bashin' Dick Mangan - that is uncalled for - period. As a lowly R1 contractor I had the privilege of attending Dick's S-270 class and chatting with him in Reno at the IAWF conference. As with most classes you learn as much or more from the conversations held in between course work items as from the course work - in that case it was certainly true. Dick continues to help improve everyones experience on the fireline - and he certainly has free Moose Drool in Whitefish if I'm standin' at the bar.
MTMOG |
| 8/30 |
I wanted to apologize about the crude and highly inappropriate comments to Dick
Mangan, and you're right Mellie my apologies to you too, I was way out of line, Dick
Mangan has done more in one day for fire and firefighters, than I could do in a lifetime and is a great person from what I know of him, his retirement was a great loss to the Forest Service and I'm still glad he puts his two cents worth in, I highly respect Him, Leslie Anderson and her crew for their relentless and thankless work. Its true I have no Idea the magnitude of what goes on at MTDC just of what I experience on the ground, the red tape must be beyond comprehension. Ghostdude
you're correct I shouldn't have carved Mr. Mangan up as a management Model, I most definitely would have used you instead If I had only known where
you're coming from, but I think you did a pretty good job of that yourself without my help.
Please forgive, I am just frustrated as many of us are, it seems like all we have time to do anymore is fight battles, our support system has turned into a police action, no time to supervise or put the fire out any more just fight battles, we will get through this one way or another. see you all on the big one, keep fighting, never quit!
Redbeard |
| 8/30 |
Apprentice Hours:
One can only say that "joatmon" is right on the money, with their post.
As, thank heavens, a former "unit coordinator of apprentices", Joatmon is right. Apprentices get the BASIC training at the academy and then Units need to provide the additional 300 hours of related and supplemental training before conversion. Gee the Modoc does not have a helicopter
-- where do they get the experience then?
One can only ask -- if we require these apprentices to pay back for the training they received at whatever cost, how come the money spent to train TONY KERN as a SES employee who is leaving the agency after getting rid of the airtankers does
not? HMMMM something different for the higher ups???
Seldom Seen |
| 8/30 |
GHOSTLOAD: WHATEVER, DUDE! You need to get back in the dirt and see how
the lowly ones have to work around the stupidity of the "NEW FOREST SERVICE"
and still get the job done like we always have.
Maybe the govt. should buy us our boots, on second thought they would have
to be GSA issue and we would all be in the Med Unit with crippled up feet.
REDBEARD: WHAT YOU SAID! Except for the part about Dick Mangan, he's OK,
like Mellie says.
Don't go over to the dark side, Ghostload is full of it. All the talk
about the "Higher Calling" is a smoke screen. There is no higher calling
than being there to take care of the crews and keep the Commisars off their
back and out of their pants. Hang in there till your knees fall off and
then retire and go AD. We need you on the line not sitting at some desk
bagging on the firefighters and putting up road blocks every time a rocket
surgeon at MTDC comes up with a "new and improved" widget to try to justify
their existence. I NEED A FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JUSTSAYNOTOGSA |
| 8/30 |
Okay......reality check:
Ed H. or Dick M. please jump in here and clarify if I am mistaken (that's happened before).
My understanding is that the Nomex clothing tested and approved by MTDC is
the only clothing that is approved for fireline wear. Hence, whether or not you are willing to pay personal $ for non-GSA items (better fit,
comfort, style.... whatever), you may not do so.
I've also been told the same applies to the MTDC approved fire shelter (both old and new model).......one can not
purchase a "different" model for fireline use.
Hardhats?: As long as it meets the national standard.
Boots?: Even more flexibility.....
Bottom line? Fire shelters and clothing must be that approved by MTDC!
Am I wrong?
Old Fire Guy |
| 8/30 |
Redbeard:
Read your comments, thought about them, and then tried to figure best how
to offer some solutions.
Regarding pants and feeling comfortable: We have to buy our own boots and
they are investments - pay the price and you'll get quality.
Want professional, up to standard ppe and clothing: quit whining about
what 10,000 to 15,000 other firefighters have to wear because fortunately
you have been exposed to a higher order.
And frankly, a person of your talent, skill, experience would do better to
set a more mindful tone as a leader instead of a whiner for the forum.
Given your experience, we can use people who can think in management - why
not give it a shot.
The challenge of management is working within a system that needs the very
brightest and broadest of thinkers.
I think its quite an affront to Dick Mangan to carve him up as your
management model. If you knew half of what the man did to make your life
better on the fireline - perhaps you will rethink how you direct your
positive improvement philosophy, or even show your knowledge by submitting
an MTDC study proposal.
At some point, veteran firefighters pass thru the portal from which they
can feel inside that they've eaten enough smoke, dirt, soot and ash - and
can meet a higher calling for the betterment of more people by taking over
programs of significance and their management.
Are you big and bad enough to make the journey, or is the edge of the rut
the only horizon you see? This is a new Forest Service. If you have
positive information, scientifically based, and can offer solutions - (all
things considered within what an agency had to deal with) -- then STEP UP.
- Ghostload |
| 8/30 |
Ponil Complex:
Lohrey's Northwest IMT was first up on this fire and I sure would think
somebody got some pictures. You can contact them through their website.
The NM Team had mopup and might also be a source of pix at the mopup
stage.
NMAirBear |
| 8/30 |
JT -- pants thread
It looks like they didn't go far enough when they came up with the 'new'
pants. I guess they just looked at the military's 20 year old BDU design
and just speced them in Nomex and went on.
The easiest fix would be to keep everything the same but change the sewing
thread to Kevlar instead of the Nomex. This would help keep the seams from
coming apart. The next change would be to change the material to a ripstop
weave, something the military has used for years.
A design change would have to get through the bureaucracy, but adding
additional pockets and adding a gusset into the crotch would make them more
ergonomically better. Did they ever check with the military's design
laboratory to see what improvements are currently being considered?
To paraphrase Norman MacLean's quote: "The fire didn't have organizational
problems."
"The fire doesn't care what you look like."
Function first, fashion last.
Tree
This quote (www.wildlandfire.com/docs/quotes.htm)
may also apply:
General George Patton "No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair." |
| 8/30 |
kevlar pant and wfap threads:
In response to the concerns of dirty kevlar pants spreading disease or oak
due to supply being unwilling to trade kevlar for kevlar, I don't know many
f.f.'s who count on supply being their laundry service. And most large
incidents do provide a laundry service for individuals to have their clothes
cleaned. With 14 day tours being the norm it is easy to pack a red bag or
use the laundry service provided to stave off the health concerns pertaining
to dirty GSA, or kevlar pants for that matter.
As a WFAP in R-5, I think joatman might be a bit high with the 9 year
service agreement , however I do feel that most apprentices are unaware that
a significant time commitment is required after the conversion. My question
is, have the Feds actually billed an individual the $10,000.00 for not
completing the apprenticeship or service requirements, or is it a hollow
statement? I have heard both and it would be interesting to know.
Thanks Ab for the service you provide, during the slow times They Said is
much more interesting than the sit report.
yollabolla
<snort> we have so much more to offer than the sit report. New
more comprehensive breaking News page coming soon. Ab. |
| 8/29 |
MJ-
My short answer to you is Yes, I'm going to wear the same pair of pants for
14 days. I'm also packing a spare pair of GSA Cargo crap pants that I'll
wear traveling home (gotta travel clean). I've worn the old disco pants, the
straight leg, butt huggers that some genious came up with in the 80's, the
GSA Cargo pants, the Crew Boss Cargo pants and the Nomex Crew Boss cargo
pants. My 2 cents worth:
GSA Cargo pants: Great for office personnel and fireline personnel that are
not wearing them every day. As a hotshot, these pants would last me anywhere
from 3 days (pockets ripped off, crotch ripped out) to 14 days (burn spots
around cuffs weaken the material much faster than any of the older styles or
the Crew Boss style, causing major tears and rips up the inside legs seams).
Cargo pockets allow some stuff to be stored, but when you throw all of the
little guides, IA size up sheets, knife, wallet, keys, pager, cell phone,
lighter, pens, etc...the pockets don't expand and the pants become tight in
the legs and crotch.
Crew Boss Cargo Pants: Wore a pair for 3 months before they developed a tear
around the cuffs. Roomy cut, very comfortable. Elastic waist Medium size was
VERY comfortable. The only problem is the weave of the material seems looser
than the GSA...the tear ran up the leg pretty quickly in one shift.
Nomex pants: Hotter and heavier than GSA. I need more time in these to
determine real world ruggedness in regards to rips/tears. Crotch is much
roomier and easier to hike in than GSA.
As for your Hygiene concern....I'm a lot cleaner spiked out for two weeks
eating MRE's and sack lunches than I am sitting in the cesspool that forms
around large fire camps. Less contact with masses of people who don't always
practice proper hygiene is the best way to go.
JOATMAN-
I go back and forth daily on the apprenticeship program. Why hire candidates
for this program who have no or only one season's experience? Why make them
sign a contract that "obligates" them for 3-6 years in government service?
> From the apprentices
I've worked with in 3 different regions (none of them being in Region 5),
there is a wide variety of output and quality of firefighter produced
through this program. A lot of this is a direct reflection of the district
that hosts the apprentice. A low fire district does not provide the amount
of fire experience that is required to have a person up to a Crewboss
Trainee level in 2-4 seasons. If that district does not fully support the
apprenticeship program, the entire ideal behind the program is failed. Lack
of assignments, lack of leadership roles, and lack of a basic fire
background harm the apprentice's experience.
I have never attended the Apprentice Academy or have taken part in the
apprenticeship program. I have six seasons of experience in with the Forest
Service: Two on an Engine/IA Squad, Three on a Hotshot crew, and I'm
finishing my sixth up as an Engine Supervisor. The majority of training I
have received has been on my own doing... traveling around the country,
driving for a day or two just to take a class... almost all on my own dime.
When I was looking for my first permanent appointment, I had the offer of an
apprentice position on my plate. Looking at my previous experience, there is
no reason why i should commit myself to 6 years of service and be forced to
retake the majority of courses I have already taken and paid for with my own
money. It would have been a step backward in my career to go the apprentice
route.
I understand that the apprentice program has its place in fulfilling a need
of training firefighters for a career. I also now understand that the
motivated and flexible individual wildland firefighter can exceed the
training and experience gained from the apprenticeship program in a shorter
time frame while exposing him/herself to a greater variety of fuel types and
overhead management styles.
I've probably used up more than my 2 cents, but it's been on my mind.
JT
|
| 8/30 |
Now don't you guys be beatin' up on my friend Dick Mangan. He is
on the firefighters'
side. He also retired last year (? or the year before). I understand he does
some good
teaching, is the pres of
IAWF, has a
classified on the Classifieds page. Rumor has it he
sometimes enjoys a mug of moose drool, whatever that really is, and
the company of
his family and his good dog when forced back into his log cabin in
Montana over the
long cold winter. <snicker> Dick-a-poo, we love you! Thanks for your
contributions to
wildland firefighting safety!Also glad to be hearing from the troops on
the ground! Pant comfort and durability are
critical issues when you live in them. O'course I wouldn't know 'bout men's
pant comfort,
maybe the scientists should get some men to wear their product in the field
for a while
before putting it out there.
Mellie |
| 8/29 |
reality check from the ground: A few comments for the record, from
someone who's been on the line for 30 years 25 on Hotshots the rest engines
and Helishots.
#1- Pay issue. If in fact we value the future and the lives of future
firefighters, we still have to keep fighting, and supporting thehe
association for equitable pay. Things are different nowdays, we are at the
point where unemployment benefits are more than a GS-4 base pay.
Americans, smart people and people with families like and need money, and
to retain a quality workforce, we must move ahead and all of us support the
pay issue.
#2- POSH training (prevention of sexual harassment training). This is
more
of a red flag for future priorities being other than fire suppression.
Crews including my own have been made unavailable for fire response to
attend this outdated and high priced example of government waste. What
would the public say when they find out that national resources were being
held while their houses burned? Write your congressmen on this one. This
hovers on the verge of the twilight zone and anyone who supports a travesty
of this magnitude needs help and needs to be held accountable.
#3-Fire Clothes and equip. etc. Shame on you Dick Mangan, I thought
you
were on the firefighters side. I think with the pants issue you and the
rest of the heartless bean counters have found a way to successfully win
the "Nickel and dime" war against the groundpounders, try saving money by
cutting out the useless, $8,000,0000 a day FIREWATCH program or the
ill timed 20,000 dollar a session "POSH training, or maybe back out on
the the 280 acres that the Tahoe management Basin bought for 10,000,000.
if you want to save a couple of dollars. The stuff from the cache is
garbage, that's a known fact, you must know that because I know you are a
smart person. Why should we have to tell you that the junk that they are
trying to make us wear isn't even close to the quality that we can get
ourselves from private industry, you know that . Up until recently we were
able to buy the quality stuff and not worry about using that tripe, but
now it's sounding like we have to and that's why we are making comments.
(And that's why you have received very little input to make things better,
we have never had to till now.) My crew spent nearly 120 days on fire
over a six month period last year, that's time away from home, living in
those pants, not to mention in station and on project. Sometimes day and
night. Of course we want the best for them, their lives and well being
depend on it, we can't pay them properly, they don't rate a few measly
benefits if they are temporary, we lay them off without moment's notice,
and we expect them to do one of the most dangerous and demanding jobs in
the world in the cheapest, worst fitting, crap that we can dole out in
mass, when we all know there is good stuff available, yes and that includes
those pathetic excuses for fire shelters that you tried to peddle on us.
(Instead of shake and bake we can now call them shake and tear and then
fry!!)
How's this for a suggestion to those at MTDC: you quit the FS, open up a
fire
clothing business, close down MTDC and we buy good stuff on our own with
our government purchase cards. Cause we know good stuff from bad stuff,
being firefighters and all. (Best of luck, but if you plan on using the
cache
stuff you'll go out of business in a couple of weeks)
(Dick, we really have appreciated most of all you have done, over the years,
we are just very frustrated right now as you can tell.)
This might make sense to the bean counters if the rest doesn't, concerning
the fire equip.
* It might be the same as you having to start using the old DG again
with no colors instead of a new Dell computer, or someone installing a
swamp cooler instead of AC in your office to save ten dollars, going to a
counselor with an AA in psychology instead of a psychiatrist, or even
sitting in an oak chair instead of a cushioned one, something like that.
#4- Fire shelters- What in the? First of all, we did put in our input
for new shelters way back in 1994, remember after several of the South
Canyon folks burned to death under shelters? I put in four pages myself
after nearly dying under those pathetic excuses for modern technology. Jim
Roth worked for nine years on a product that would have worked really
well, but we had to settle on the "New generation fire shelter" cheap,
cheap ,cheap" mass produced by several unknown companies. First time we
opened one it ripped, causing a nation wide recall, do we have the new ones
back yet? No, even though it was mentioned several times that they are far
superior to the old ones even with the defects. Ten long years, I guess it
will always be in the back of our minds, would the four young, forestry
techs, who were burn't to death on the thirty mile have stood a better
chance if
they had a decent shelter?? If someone dies under the old ones this year,
will someone else be held accountable besides the first year crewmember who
broke a fireorder???
That's it for now. One thing Dick, you did have enough courage to put your
name down and that is quite honorable. I don't, 'cause I have family and
know
that the Forest Service internal affairs people will find a way to wreck
my/our lives. I'd call you but that might cost three or four bucks and I
know how we are trying to save $$$$$$$.
REDBEARD |
| 8/29 |
I am trying to get photos of the Philmont fires in 2002. Especially
photos
which were taken at the French Henry camp of the cabin and the stove.
We were on staff there that summer. I found them earlier on this site, but
my antiquated computer wouldn't load them. Are any of these still
available?
Thank you!
Linda Cummings
Philmont Staff 2000-2004The fire that burned on the Philmont Scout
Ranch, near Cimmaron NM in 2002 was the Ponil Complex. We never posted those
photos, although I think I remember the one you describe. (Philmont was one
of those memorable experiences in my youth.) The only Ponil photo links I
could find are
PNW Team 3 archives, the
Taos Zone FS site, one photo on our
Wallpaper page,
and Ponil Firewhirl on
Fire 14 photo page. Does anyone know how Linda might find that photo?
Hey, Lasagna, you reading? Ab. |
| 8/29 |
MJ,
If you’re on a shot crew then 14 days, could very easily be done with one
pair of pants, and 4 pairs of under-roos, (the turn inside out factor).
Most shot crews will have 3 pairs of pants with them on a 14 day run. Maybe
with the cache in fire camps they are for the type II hand crews or
contractors, but if contractors are going to be on fires, why not have them
with the same standards as the shot crews, make each person carry 3 pairs of
pants, carry enough food and water to support themselves for a day on the
line with out support
And in reply to the GSA pants and equipment, how much money do we (being tax
payers) spend each year with GSA?And then how much stuff is sitting in a
cache, that will never get used. Like at the Utah Wildfire academy, GSA was
handing packs out like water to everyone, so is this the best way to spend
tax dollars? I rather see that money goto the FWFSA, or the WFF.
Stay Safe,
RR |
| 8/29 |
In 24 days how many times do you change your pants? I have never been
sick because of someone's nomex. And we all know it is a must to have enough
pants for 14 days, and most of the fires i've been on there is someone there
to wash the dirty ones. It seems like you are worrying about the petty
things. there are alot more important issues out there. So lets focus on
those. And for your question, yes i do have enough pants for 21 days if need
be, so if you're worried about catching cold or oak you are free to sit
anywhere you want. Im more worried about the guy who has filthy hands and
reaches in the drink cooler lol.
someone who knows when to change my pants (smile everyone we will soon have
more fires so we can all get dirty)
so ca fire |
| 8/29 |
Ab, I'm going to rake the muck here.
No one has answered my concerns about the Kevlar pants wearers hygiene
issue. How do you guys change into clean nomex when you can't turn them into
Supply unit for clean ones? Do you just keep wearing them the whole fire, or
do you have enough pairs with you to last 14 days? The people I've seen just
wear filthy ones, and don't turn them in. This can be a health issue,
especially in Poison Oak areas. Even if you don't get it, the guy sitting
next to you in the food tent might, or even catch a cold from your dirty
nomex, because you want the "Best, comfortable" pants. How are they more
comfortable when they're filthy? You know, since the teams have made people
wash their hands before meals, the occurrence of upper respiratory "camp
crud" illnesses has dropped off considerably. Also, studies have shown that
wearing clean nomex is not only more flame retardant and breathes better,
but also reduces the spread of camp illnesses. So don't give me that stuff
about you being concerned about your crew unless you have considered
everybody else around you in the food line, shower trailer, and food tents.
-MJ |
| 8/29 |
sharp-
here is a dose of USFS apprentice reality.....
it's not a three year contract, it's a hell of a lot more than that! let me
explain... new apprentices are accredited with past fire experience of
1-hour to 1-hour. many apprentices from before academy 20 were only
accredited with a 3 to 1 ratio. no more than 2000 hours can be given for
past experience. these hours are deducted from a 4000 hour total called
"work process hours" which are the hours you work during fire season while
assigned to a module. they are divided up into categories (like handcrew,
engine, and helitack related work, etc.) in which the apprentice records and
keeps track of his or her progress towards conversion to a grand and
glorious GS-5 position! the basic and advanced academies which apprentices
attend are technically not included in these hours. after completion of the
work process hours, which takes approximately 2-3 seasons, the apprentice
also has to show documented completion of the "supplemental training" which
seems to change from year to year but includes things like S-211, S-215, and
now includes S-230 ( which used to be in the advanced academy...but i'll
explain that later...) sooooo...after the work process hours are completed
and the supplemental training is signed off, (this next process can legally
take up to 120 days before you convert...) the apprentice sends their
materials off to the academy for approval. the academy then sends it on to
the department of labor who, in the end, gives the apprentice a certificate
which states they have completed the requirements of the "wildland
firefighter specialist" apprentice standards (even though you're not going
to be converted into that title, you'll be a forestry-tech like everyone
else!).....AND NOW THE "SERVICE AGREEMENT" STARTS!!
the "service agreement" states that you will stay in federal employment
THREE TIMES THE LENGTH OF THE WORK PROCESS HOURS. so if you need the full
4000 hours ( like most of the new apprentices...) your service agreement is
yep, you guessed it, 12,000 HOURS. now lets see... hmmmm, a seasonal works
1039 hours which is 6 months of base hours. add say, an average of 500 hours
of OT and you're at 1539, plus a few more pay periods since you're now an
apprentice, and 2000 hours is a realistic average per season. yeah, yeah...
you could get more but lets stay with an average. SO NOW...the newbie
apprentice spends 2 to 3 seasons to complete the work process hours and then
waits up to 4 months to be converted and then spends the next SIX SEASONS to
satisfy the service agreement (or will be subject to pay back the expense of
their training at almost $10,000! ) and TAH-DAH!! yer lookin' at about NINE
YEARS. whew! what a deal to be the lowest paid firefighters in the field!
the academies have also removed courses and instead added them to the
supplemental training list. they were keeping students for much longer than
eight hours per day and when confronted with the fact that they were going
to have to pay over-time, they instead cut courses. this puts more burden on
home units and makes it damn hard for apprentices from "less motivated"
districts to get the training needed to convert in a timely manner (S-230 is
only one example...)
apprentices are also subject to the "mobility agreement" in which they can
end up getting converted to a GS-5 somewhere in their region that they don't
want to be. i've never met anyone that this has happened to, but with the
massive "spanish settlement agreement" hiring in R-5......it could start.
anyway, as for the retention problem of the new apprentices, i think nobody
really explained to them what they were getting themselves into! hmmm...i
wonder why?
my mother once told me, "you catch more flies with honey than you do with
vinegar."
-joatmon |
| 8/29 |
The Texas Canyon Hotshots will be celebrating 50 years of tradition on
December
3rd and 4th. If you're an alumni or know one, please contact us at (661)
296-8418 or email us at tcsup3@aol.com.
This is posted on the
Classifieds page, so any and all who need to find it again may do so.
Ab. |
| 8/29 |
Sharp,
The reason people join the program is for the training. You are
guaranteed 4000 hours of work experience, with one season on an engine, one
season on a Handcrew, and one season on a helitack crew, as well as all of
the 5109.17 classes to become a Crew Boss trainee. You come out of the
program as a GS-5, true, but a highly qualified one. If I'm hiring, I look
for varied experience, not just engine or crew. I went through the program
in 1994, and now I'm a GS-9 ADFMO, so I know the program helps careers.
-MJ |
| 8/29 |
Sharp,
Apprentice hiring is just the tip of the iceberg in retention issues. It was
ill conceived, badly executed and just plain irresponsible. We actually had
folks that got hired that way and turned down the apprenticeship for a
seasonal job because even with no experience they intuitively realized that
is the way it should be. These are likely to become the good ones (that we
will lose to other departments), many of the ones that gladly accepted have
or will wash out, or become a thorn in our sides (and they are supposed to
be future module leaders?).
Worse than that I just spoke with one of our strong young firefighters that
will apply, and take if offered, a job with a small municipal department
(much like Lobotomy's example) even though he loves his job. He explained to
me that the bottom line is his family, and retirement.
I urged him to write Q, he does not think it will do any good. I urged him
to do it anyway, even though I feel it will not do much good either. Q has
kept his head in the sand about pretension issues, and will likely be
retired when we can no longer field an effective and SAFE
firefighting force.
I am so disgusted with the whole issue that I am also looking for another
job, after 20+ years in the Forest Service, and it breaks my heart because I
happen to bleed green!
BB |
| 8/28 |
apprentice hiring From what i've seen, the USFS is having
problems retaining apprentices. I understand the desire to outfit
with full time permanents, but something that has caused me pause.
As well as others i know. Is the whole contract deal... Why would
someone want to sign a 3 year contract? It's not the military. And
with this whole hispanic settlement agreement, people are being
picked up with no fire experience at all.
Why not make it more like the state FF1
academy. I would have gone to the academy a couple of years ago had
i been able to pay my own way, and not had a contract. It would not
be hard to do. And most vets still have their GI bill which would be
an easy way to do it. I have never received a comprehensive answer
why this is so. If there's anyone out there who can explain this to
me i'd appreciate it.
Sharp
|
| 8/28 |
Here is the address for Rios' SCIIMT Type II Ca.
team
www.netptc.net/thomas/KB
Thanks, Ab. |
| 8/28 |
Was visiting your web site looking for information on IMT's from the
East Region for someone assigned here at the Fischer Fire (from Indiana),
and found your web site listings.
Our IMT recently built a web site. If you could add a link to it for us,
we would appreciate it.
www.waimt3.com/
Bob Ladd
Resource Unit Leader
WA IMT 3
I put it on the
Type II
Teams Page. If anyone knows of other new websites, please let us know.
Ab. |
| 8/28 |
A note to add to the discussion about stress and cancer: Wag Dodge, the
Mann Gulch foreman, died of Hodgkins Disease in 1955, six years after the
fire. He was under continual heavy stress following the fire. Three times
fellow firefighters took him aloft in jump gear to get him back in the game
and three times he came back to the base with his parachute still in its
pack, though he continued to call himself a "smokejumper foreman."
Eventually he was offered the job of dispatcher on the Powell Ranger
District, but he turned it down at first insisting that he should be allowed
to carry on as a jumper foreman, never mind that he couldn't jump out of an
airplane. His wife, Patsy, eventually talked him into taking the job. Bud
Moore, then ranger on the Powell district, befriended Dodge and was in the
room with him at St. Pat's hospital in Missoula when he died. But Moore says
Dodge never reconciled to being a desk man, never gave up thinking of
himself as a jumper.
Patsy, Dodge's widow, says Wag never got over Mann Gulch. "Wag died that
day," she told me a few years ago. Dodge's cancer was not diagnosed until a
few years after Mann Gulch. Who knows what caused it, but the constant
stress of his life following the fire surely weakened his resistance and
probably speeded the progress of the disease.
MacFisher |
| 8/27 |
On August 20, NIFC distributed an e-mail message to LSCs, COTRs, and FDULs.
A portion of that message was sent in by "Been There" and was posted on
August 23rd. I received a copy of the complete message as it was sent on
August 20th. Here it is, complete with the missing parts:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Message from Melinda Draper regarding the National Mobile Food Service Contract program.
Memo for Log Chiefs, FDUL's, FACL's and COTR's
Here is a quick update on the National Mobile Food Program.
There are no National Contracts at this time. All of the contracts that were awarded in July have been reassigned to
Melinda Draper. All of these contracts have been terminated. The Contractor's received their
termination letters yesterday. The terminations were due to some protests
that were received. Due to some unusual circumstances surrounding the procurement the Agency decided we would terminate and re-solicit after fire
season to have new National Contracts in place for next fire season. Any questions, comments or concerns regarding the new contract should
be directed to Melinda Draper.
John Venaglia is not leaving for military duty. He will continue to be the
Contracting Officer for the current 2004 EERA's that we are using this summer. Any questions regarding the 2004 EERA's should be directed to John
Venaglia."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The version of this message previously posted by "Been There" could lead
people to believe that there will be no food guys at firecamps in
2004/2005.
I have been assured that this will not be the case and that there are
currently plenty of food guys to go around.
- Batchmaster |
| 8/27 |
Insulin and fire
I also have a type 1 child and, being a Fire Captain that has worked both in the wildland on a Helitack crew and on a
engine, The thought of having a firefighter with Diabetes would be a bit unnerving but not impossible. We have several Type 1's in our unit and they do just fine,
but the one limitation is they can not be a driver so this limits the potential for future advancement.
JF
CDF Riverside |
| 8/27 |
EMT_MB,
I think that Keep Out signs have always been too negative.
Try this approach, much more positive than Skull in Helmet.
(See attached file: keep-out.jpg)
- Batchmaster
Ab doesn't have time to deal with posting the photo, but it's cute,
it's a doughboy with a keepout sign and a smile. I'll send it to you
EMT_MB if you'd like it. |
| 8/27 |
The Jobs page has been updated
as well as the Wildland Firefighter
Series
0462 &
Series
0455. Ab. |
| 8/26 |
This came in at 1730.
At this time a 200 acre + fire in Lake County California. News says structures
threatened, 100+ firefighters on the line with air tankers, & helos.
Red flag warnings tonight and tomorrow.
Retired L.A.V.E |
| 8/26 |
Tanker
48 for Andrew Fire at Minden
CHL |
| 8/26 |
Hey Ab,
How about helping out a Brother? I am a 10 year wildland FF, Structure FF, EMT in FL. Been out West several times, red carded in several positions. Been a Fl Div of Forestry FF for last 8 years. Just want to move out of FL, been here since birth, gotta move out, too many Yankees! hee hee.
I want a full time-permanent position in a good Western location. If you post this on your board, I'm sure some FMO's or AFMO's will be interested. Maybe some of the folks I've worked with will see this and give me a call?
Thanks tons,
Darrin Dodson
I'll pass on any messages. Ab. |
| 8/26 |
I am apologizing for my lack of professionalism on my post on 8/21 the
fire
in the DFPA area of Canyonville. I was quick to criticize our cooperators
and their superiors. I was told the fire grew large very quickly and that a
proper ICS structure was place with the proper channels for ordering
resources. Aircraft was ordered quickly and wind event was what took the
fire to a large acreage.
My apologies
JS |
| 8/26 |
FC180 mentioned a possible link between stress and cancer. I concur. I
called 1994 "The Summer from H***". And I rarely use words which require
asterisks. That year several things went sour, including a close relative
with a stroke, taking my two kids through the loss of their mother to
cancer, followed within days by loss of a friend on Storm King and related
stress from two more deaths of those close to co-workers. I thought I was
stressed out, and a skin cancer popped up on my face (removed and cured by
removal). I think its widely understood in the medical community that
stress kills. For example, when I worked in intensive care, we knew that
critically ill patients can be killed by the simple stress of being put on
a bed scale and weighed. I know, because I saw it happen. You might not
think a little stress like that could kill someone, but having seen it
happen, and knowing it happens every day in ICUs somewhere in the country,
confirms the suspicion. So, these days, I limit stress whenever possible.
Sedgehead |
| 8/26 |
Yellowjacket:
Thanks for putting the credit where it belongs regarding the establishment
of the
Shane/Jeff Hwy. 93 memorial. I will be sure to go to the Broken Arrow
Restaurant
the next time I am over in Gibbonsville.
NMAirBear |
| 8/26 |
I was struck by the facts of Paul's cancer occurring so shortly after it
was
described "how deeply Cerro Grande affected Paul". This brought to mind the
fate of Wagner Dodge and the Mann Gulch disaster. He also died of cancer a
short time after the incident. We know the mind-body connection is strong
and stress has been identified as a big factor in cancer. Although the
connection is tenuous at best, this is an area that has had little
discussion or research dedicated to it in terms of post traumatic stress
disorder and cancer. We have a pretty good handle on the physiological
affects of PTSD and when counseled (as I have been a few times) on PTSD
issues we are always advised of those warning signs and short term effects.
I wonder if we should also be on the watch for the long term health affects
of PTSD. Anyone else know of any similar connections involving the health
of individuals after a traumatic incident?
FC180 |
| 8/26 |
Kelly;
There was a guy on my crew with Type I diabetes. One thing he did in case of
emergency was carry a pre-filled syringe of glucagon (http://164.64.80.7/ipems.com/treatguide/DRUG_GUIDELINES.pdf)
. That’s kind of a scary med, if you haven’t heard of it; it converts the
reserve glycogen in the body’s liver to available glucose in the
bloodstream. We were all made aware that he carried it, where it was, and
how (and when) to administer it. That said, we never had a problem, but the
potential was always there. Please do realize that well-regulated sugar is
one thing in the urban environment, and quite another in the field; I’ve
been on incidents where it took better than thirty hours to get food to the
line. On the flip side, I don’t think diabetes should get in the way at all
in emergency medicine or structural fire fighting; that might be a good
direction to focus your son’s energy. My chief is diabetic; aside from
getting testy when we ask “Hey chief, have you eaten?”, it doesn’t slow him
down any.
Nerd on the Fireline |
| 8/26 |
firewall,
hey man, EMT-B is a great thing to have in your pocket no matter what.
different states do have some different guidelines, however, when you go to
your first class ask the instructor if you will be able to test for the
"national registry." this is a more in depth (not really..) final exam which
will allow you to be recognized through out the nation.
as for a class which is more specific to the typical injuries sustained on
the fireline, your EMT-B class or first responder should pretty well cover
the bases. maybe pay a little more attention to....... ah hell, it's all
pertinent. there are alot of weird injuries that happen out there. trauma,
lot's of heat related illness, bee-stings and allergic reaction to stuff,
vehicle accidents, helicopter crashes, dude... the list goes on. EMT is
simply good to know for whatever reason bro, and if you stay in this game...
you'll end up using it...and always when you least expect it.
i'm not sure what your rules are up there in R6, but in cali, you don't need
a "physician advisor" or be part of a recognized first responder company in
order for your EMT-B to be valid. in fact, whatever the criteria is for the
national registry will work up there and here too, so i would question JW's
reply to your query. maybe he was a paramedic on a stagecoach.
now the engine boss trainee/FFT-2 thing.... uuhhh yeeaaahhh. oh, hey, CW i
think you meant to type S-230, cause i sure hope a fella has 130 before 131.
-joatmon |
| 8/26 |
To JW-
Thanks for the info. you have been helpful.
To CW-
Thanks also, I have completed S-130, S-131, S-190, S-290, I-100 and S-230. I
am with a very good contractor but as you probably know it's been a tough
season for the business and I ain't quit'n my day job as they say. Though
I've completed the course work, the record shows I'm just lacking
experience. If education gets me the experience...I'm all over it.
Appreciate the input. Stay safe,
firewall |
| 8/25 |
Heres a little update on the Andrews Fire:
Currently the fire is 2000+ acres, 7 homes destroyed or damaged, fire is
pushing into a heavy stand of PJ and mandatory evacuations are in effect for
Virgina Highlands. Martins Type 1 team has been ordered. This area is in red
flag conditions, winds are gusting up to 35 mph. Extreme fire behavior with
spotting is occuring. Here are some good links for some up to date fire
info:
www.rgj.com
www.kolotv.com
www.ktvn.com
Careful out there everyone, lets not get complacent, Reno just had a rash of
rain storms the last week and as you can see from this fire, fire season is
still far from over.
NNVFireman |
| 8/25 |
Dear Ab
My son, who is 16, has known that he is going to be a firefighter/EMT for a
number of years. He has done numerous ride-alongs, an internship at a local
fire station, and follows calls on his radio.
He is smart, an exceptional athlete, and very focused.
He also has Type I diabetes. He has had it since he was 12. He maintains
excellent control-- His dream is to be a firefighter--and I just need to
know, as he is looking at various schools that offer fire science programs
(that is how I found this website!) -- that he will not be discriminated
against because of his disease. We live in Sedona, AZ-- and have asked a
Captain here who checked on it, and said he does not believe it would be a
problem.
Being a mom, just want more info to "be sure!"
If you have any knowledge of this, or where I may get a definitive answer, I
would appreciate it.
Thanks for the website!
Kelly
Kelly, it probably will be a problem with getting a job in wildland
firefighting. Read the Endocrine and Metabolic System section of the
document below. I don't need to tell you that sugar is the basic fuel for
the cells in the body; insulin takes the sugar from the blood into the
cells. (Type 1 diabetics do not produce insulin.) It's easier to track
insulin/sugar levels these days with the new technologies, but sometimes
difficult to keep the right balances given the hard work wildland
firefighters do and their irregular mealtimes. Low blood glucose - which in
early stages causes fuzzy thinking - can happen even when a diabetic is
doing all they can to manage their glucose levels. It's easier to loose
situational awareness with insulin/glucose imbalances. If anyone knows any
different, please chime in here. Ab.
Medical Standards03.htm |
| 8/25 |
Fire near Reno -- Check the Hot List Forum. |
| 8/25 |
Firewall,
First of all if you are a FFT-2 you should not be an Engine boss trainee. IF
you have the proper fire experience the most you should be is a FFT-1
trainee. That is as long as you have had your S-131. When that is all signed
off (task book) and done and you have passed other courses like S-130 and
S-290. then you can be a Engine boss trainee.
As to the EMT-B.... Yes it is an advantage to your employer and what ever
crew or engine you are on. If you are working for a good contractor there
should be a pay increase to go with your new card (when you get it)
CW |
| 8/25 |
Ab,
In regards to the section of Highway 93 along the Salmon River adopted in
memory of Shane and Jeff: the true thanks should go to the owner of the
Broken Arrow Restaurant in Gibbonsville, Idaho. She is the one that worked
with the highway department to add the tribute and is the person responsible
for maintaining that section of highway. She's also an awesome cook and
loves all wildland firefighters. Anyone with an appetite for great Mexican
food that will be passing through the area should plan on stopping.
Yellowjacket |
| 8/25 |
Stubbs -
Appreciate the fine words about Paul - especially for all the duress he was
put thru over Cerro Grande.
One thing I've noticed with almost 30 years in with the fire group -
Management always seems to come down with some way to burn its enlightened
heroes and its true teachers of the day.
Been There |
| 8/25 |
Abs:
I just spent the better part of two weeks driving daily between the Bear
Springs Fire camp (near North Fork ID) and the Salmon ID airport. A very
fitting tribute to Shane Heath and Jeff Allen has been established along
Highway 93 south of North Fork in the form of 3 miles of the highway being
adopted by Indianola Helitack. It is replete with pictures, wreaths,
helicopter caricatures, etc., and it is a really beautiful section of
highway along the Salmon River.
I was moved to tears one morning at sunrise as I stopped to take pictures
and realized we must do everything we can to prevent this from happening
again.
Major thanks to Keith Talley, Bret Thomas, and Indianola Helitack for doing
this.
NMAirBear
Here's a photo sent in by CW. Memorial
Highway Ab. |
| 8/25 |
Firewall,
I used to be a paramedic in Oregon. I am not familiar with other states, but
I am pretty sure that the song remains the same where ever you go.
In order to operate as an EMT, you need to be certified in that state. So,
if you go out of state, you are not recognized. Also, you need to have a
physician advisor to operate as an EMT. Also, the state has to recognize
that your company as a first responder
So, unless your boss is going to hire a PA for you, buy a big bag with all
the EMS supplies you need, and go through all the other hoops with the
state, You are kinda spinning your wheels. And, I don't think your boss is
going to want to go through all that with out being paid for it.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to discourage you from the training. You
will learn many great things and who knows, maybe you'll catch the bug and
want to go on in the field. Just don't get your hopes up about using EMT
skills on the fire line
Stay safe\
JW |
| 8/25 |
Ab, the following has probably been discussed in this forum but it
doesn't hurt to
give it another go.
Below is an answer to a question posed to DuPont... makers of both Nomex
and the repellant DEET. The question asked was "does DEET change the self
extinguishing properties of Nomex"?
>From DuPont:
"The short answer to your question is 'Yes'. DEET does have an
adverse effect
on garments made of Nomex®. The thermal properties of Nomex® are
'compromised' if DEET is applied directly to the garment."
KJC |
| 8/25 |
Aberdeen and any one else who supports the govt. making equipment and
then selling it to us should take a look at the junk that comes out of MTDC
before you say it is saving the tax payers money. GSA and MTDC have been
shoving their version of what the properly dressed firefighter should wear
down our throats for 50 years.
So many of the products they come up with are crap. Look at the new fire
shelter it was recalled as soon as it was issued because of poor quality
manufacturing and, the thing is one and a half times as big as the current
one we carry and weighs a whole lot more.
The whole yellow pack scam of the 80’s is still with us, the Ames hand tool
heads and handles are far inferior to when True Temper made the tools. The
cargo nomex pants are a joke they fall apart in ½ a season. I still have
nomex pants form the 70’s and 80’s that are fully functional and they were
not office pants either.
If you want to save the Govt. money, fire all the GS 11-16’s crackheads at
MTDC and San Dimas and let private industry do what it does best, build
quality packs, tents, pants, hats, tools, engines and crew carriers. Get the
Government busy bodies and bean counters out of the loop and we will all be
better equipped and safer. Give us a budget that supports being able to
purchase the things we need to use and punish those who abuse the system
with having to wear GSA crap.
Remember these are the folks who gave us the line flail 3 times since 1942.
What a freaking joke!
As far as complaining to them and filling our their stupid cards, every
annual meeting I go to for my in my Region this subject is brought up and
every time the reps from the national cache system an equipment comities are
give the feedback and what we would like to do to fix the problems but
nothing ever changes.
I wonder what a MTDC chain saw would weigh and cost? Thank God for Mr. Stihl
and his gang.
JUSTSAYNOTOGSA |
| 8/25 |
Frustrated, What you say probably is true, " for your crew ".
However, I have personally witnessed type 2 regs all of the way to an
entire national forest waste money.
For example. Anyone hear of that hotshot crew, name not said, who
decided to use the "fires money" under false pretenses of which they
said they needed some operational equipment for the crew, ie a tent or
a pair of boots. Now, it is fully understandable if someones tent got
ripped on spike and your able to replace it, then replace it.
Unfortunately this crew took the IC's teams good manner a little to far.
When one person got a tent, well, all 20 needed the same tent, when one
person got a pair of boots, they all had to have the same boots. After,
I believe roughly a 20k bill later, I do believe the ripple from that
hit a senators desk.
Another example. I went to Kentucky one year for some IA or so they
called it. We had a couple of calls here and there nothing major. God
knows it was about 20 degrees in the mornings. During the slow parts,
staging, you try to keep busy and earn your pay. This forest decided to
put in a " Staging Area"!! Mind you this forest was pretty open and to
tell the truth, there was PLENTY of parking elsewhere close. After the
third day of doing this "Staging Area " I finally noticed what they
were doing. They were using fire money to have crews put together a
recreation parking lot. All in all this doesnt sound too bad, until you
consider the two national type 2 hand crews being billed out at 10k a
day each. Lets add this up, 10k X 2= 20k X 3= $60,000 just in labor and
thats only from contractors not counting the 3 FS engines, 1 TFL, all
the gas for everyone, not to mention the grass seed, dump truck rental
ect ect.
Does THIS sound like good money management? As only a taxpayer now, I
could have quite a few choice words for the FS in Washington. Not that
they would listen anyway considering Bush's order to downsize and
outsource and the FS laughing at him.
Anyway, sorry to rant, but after 10 years in the business it really
bothers me to hear the same old song and dance. Fact, all government
agencies have a budget. Fact when the budge has a year end surplus,
they loose that budget for the next year. Last fact, so why not burn it
even if it is LITERALLY burning money.
Unfortunately, 2 gov agencies dont see eye to eye. Fuel management and
suppression. Thank you for the space, sorry it took so much.
Done with the game... |
| 8/25 |
Frustrated - you obviously disagree with "Aberdeen's" ideas about GSA
fire clothing and gear, and have some pretty strong opinions about the
performance and prices. If it's based on sound technical facts, I'd suggest
that you contact the Fire Program Leader at MTDC (Leslie Anderson) who's
responsible for the equipment development, and also fill out the Quality
Deficiency Reports in the back of the GSA catalogs. Schedule a meeting, or
better yet, take a 2-3 month detail to MTDC during the winter to help make
improvements. While I was there in Leslie's role from 1989-2000, we always
welcomed folks like you to come in to MTDC and make thing better. So, looks
like the ball is back in your court: put up, or
.............................!
Dick Mangan |
| 8/25 |
Frustrated Again:
If you consider all levels of government, as you are reading this, more
money will be stolen from the tax payers by criminals and than we'll ever
get to spend on our crews. If you managed to outfit your folks with those
expensive yet comfortable pants that's a real good thing.
I'm sure, just like me, there are agency finance people who make sure that
we stay within our budgets but ours is to run fire organizations. A great
way show people they're important is to provide them with excellent
equipment.
Take care,
Startree |
| 8/25 |
Old Fire Guy,
Here is a comparison of pay under the current system and under the proposed
H.R. 2963.
Assumptions:
1) GS-0462-04 Step 1
2) Locality Pay Table 2004-Sacramento Area
3) 14 day fire assignment - Full Pay Period
4) Tour of duty is Monday Through Friday.
5) Shift Length is either 12, 14, or 16 Hours (Below)
Constant: Hourly Rate - $11.88, Overtime Rate - $17.82, Hazard Pay - $2.97
*****************************************
Current System - 16 Hour Day Calculation
80 Hrs. Base Time = $950.40
144 Hrs. Overtime = $2566.08
224 Hrs of Hazard Pay = $665.28
Total Gross = $4181.76
*****************************************
Current System - 14 Hour Day Calculation
80 Hrs. Base Time = $950.40
116 Hrs. Overtime = $2067.12
196 Hrs. of Hazard Pay = $582.12
Total Gross = $3599.62
*****************************************
Current System - 12 Hour Day Calculation
80 Hrs. of Base Time = $950.40
88 Hrs. of Overtime = $1568.16
168 Hrs. of Hazard Pay = $498.96
Total Gross = $3017.52
*****************************************
Proposed Changes Under H.R. 2963 (Covers All Hrs. Worked)
80 Hrs. Base Time = $950.40
112 Hrs. of Overtime = $1995.84
80 Hrs. of Additional Base Time = $950.40
336 Hrs. of Hazard Pay = $997.92
Total Gross = $4894.56
Total Difference: 12 Hour Workday - $1877.04
14 Hour Workday - $1294.94
16 Hour Workday - $712.80
** And All HP Counts Towards Retirement
Lobotomy |
| 8/25 |
Gleason Page Contribution I met Paul back in the mid-80's when he was
with the Zig-Zag shots and I was a squab of some 15 years experience. I was
a trainee Fire Behavior Analyst and, for the first time in my firefighting
life, trying to step up to something other than chain saw and pulaski
operation.
Paul in the 80's already wore on his sleeve his concept of being a "Student
of Fire". He influenced many of us. We took our understanding of wildland
fire to a different level. Paul never lost sight of the best reason to be a
"Student of Fire": FIREFIGHTER SAFETY!!. Then Paul's simple concept of LCES.
How many lives have been saved by LCES?
He was a great teacher with simple, pure motivation and a greatly educating,
entertaining, inspiring manner. His S490 Advanced Fire Behavior course
influenced many firefighters into further pursuit as "Students' of Fire". In
Paul's memory, several of us who helped Paul instruct S490 are trying to
resurrect Paul's cadre. This will be tough without Paul but Paul would have
wanted it that way.
And, oh yeah, a Paul story:
A whole bunch of us, including Paul, converged on Guadalupe Mountains
National Park, Texas, in about November, 1999 to complete a several thousand
acre broadcast prescribed fire in timber. The premise was simple: lots of
ping pong balls and nobody on the ground for maximum acreage and minimum
exposure. There were basically no values at risk.
Well it turns out that we put a few too many ignitions in the wrong place as
black smoke was coming up in "The Bowl" one morning and with winds that were
about 50 MPH, too high for helo use. Park management wanted us to go deal
with it. Paul and I, and several other 50-somethings, put on our gear and
headed for the 6-mile-3000-feet-straight-up trail to get us up to the burn.
Paul beat all of us up there and about 6 of us busted hump for about the
next 12 hours and late into the night to wrassle down our bonus acres. I
will never forget sitting down with Paul and the rest of the group at about
2300 that night in the fading light and heat of our fire. Paul was as alert
and alive and introspective as he ever was despite an entire day of kick-ass
firefighting. The rest of us were just plain frickin tired.
I believe this may have been the next to the last time that Paul went
mano-a-mano with wildland fire. It certainly was his last time that he had
fun doing it. His last time was the following year at Bandelier National
Park--the Cerro Grande debacle. Many of us know how deeply Cerro Grande
affected Paul. Paul should never have been put to the duress he was
subjected to by the National Park Service over Cerro Grande. He was just
there trying to help, trying to keep folks safe.
Paul is deeply missed by all of us who worked with him in so many different
capacities. His intellect, his humor, his mere presence is irreplaceable.
His legacy will be how well we can now carry on the many concepts that Paul
espoused, all of those which lead to the same place: FIREFIGHTER SAFETY. We
will struggle along now without him.
Tim Stubbs
Thanks Tim, I added it. Ab. |
| 8/25 |
Hey- need some advice,
I'm with a contractor in Region 6. I just enrolled in a EMT-B course and
wonder if it is really worth it.
Personally I'm not into blood and guts but feel if it is an advantage for my
contractor to have me on board as a FFT2/engine boss trainee (my primary
interest) AND an EMT, I will complete the course and provide EMT care (God
forbid) if necessary. I used to be a First Responder in Calif. and have
experience in medical treatment.
What's the world like out there?? Does anybody in the contracting business
see it as a big advantage to have an EMT or two on their roster???
I have not found any classes (perhaps less intense) that are specific to
treatment of injuries related to the fireline and am curious if there are
any.
I know (pretty sure) there are contractors with EMTs on their crews, does it
effect their insurance policies? Liabilities? Do different states have
different guidelines?
I think I'm too old to try and make this a career, just want to be a strong
team player.
I need to talk to my boss as of yet but any comments from you experienced
folks??
Thanks everyone,
firewall |
| 8/25 |
Am looking for a John Franklin Hancock.. born in 1949, worked for USFS,
I think.
His father, same name, went to college in Colorado, then in Corvallis, Or.,
for forestry
major. Pretty sure the son was a hotshot, but info might be confused and it
might have
been the dad.
Would appreciate any help.
Thank you.
He is my 1/2 brother, and his full younger brother and I are looking for
him.
LW |
| 8/24 |
Wasting taxpayers money? As overhead on a Hotshot
Crew we are given a budget each year for supplies. Is
it wrong for us to buy quality equipment with that
money?
For instance the Kevlar pants last about 3-4 times the
life of the GSA Cargo pants. At the GSA Price of
$163.60 per pants vs the $188.19 - $250.92 for 3-4
pairs of pants. Savings of $24.59 - $87.32
Next let's look at Packs. The GSA Version of field
pack new in the 2004 catalog might last one or two
rolls (14 day assignments). With our packs lasting 2-3
seasons. Savings FSS pack $99.33 ours 168.00.
Savings of $30. If not more....
I can go on and on....Tents, Sleeping bags, headlamps,
specialty tools, etc.
When you use the equipment like we do, and lets be
honest the GSA catalog does not carry the best quality
equipment. It almost boils down to safety if our
gear breaks down on the line, or our pants are
shredded a few miles from the nearest road on division
blah blah blah digging line all day.
I'm not asking for more money in our budget. I'm just
saying let us spend it the most efficient way we see
fit to run our crew.
Frustrated Once Again |
| 8/24 |
Heads up everyone. The National Weather service has just released this
weather update for R5-Northern CA.
“.. ...STRONG NORTH WIND EVENT SHAPING UP FOR LATE THURSDAY INTO THE
UPCOMING WEEKEND...... THE WEATHER PATTERN WILL BECOME SUPPORTIVE OF A
PROLONGED PERIOD OF STRONG NORTH TO NORTHEAST WINDS LASTING INTO THE
WEEKEND. THIS WILL RESULT IN MUCH LOWER HUMIDITIES AND VERY POOR
NIGHTTIME RECOVERIES.”
SPFDBC |
| 8/24 |
Gleason's memorial pages: Ab,
I believe there is a slide show that was put together by the Mt. Hood,
Zigzag Ranger District at Paul’s Memorial there. I haven’t been able to
track it down, maybe you could.
Patti
Anyone have a copy? Ab. |
| 8/24 |
Reply: Bland Mt. Fire
There were several severity resources with in a 2
hour drive in the southwest Oregon area that could have been utilized, I
know for sure a 20 person crew and a task force of 4 BLM engines w/ tender.
I also know the airtankers weren't dispatched as soon as they probably
could of been.
Also I am not stating that less acres would have been burned but it is
possible that homes could have been saved "I don't know I wasn't there".
I am stating from experience elsewhere that when resources are needed, we
send them, may be they weren't ordered. I know the fire grew rapidly and I
am sure the IC and their dispatch center were overwhelmed. I am just
commenting as an armchair quarterback.
JS Firehog
I just got done with Human Factors or L-180 and the whole time they
mention
wildland firefighters, I had a new person say I am a forest tech? just
another comment in the hat. |
| 8/24 |
Fire Season: it ain't over yet! We had about 0.25 inch rain over the
last few days on the norcal coast. I read
somewhere that the first 0.4 of precip doesn't even get to the duff under
the
trees. Well, it's sunny and hot again today. Isn't taking long to dry out. I
don't
think the fire season is over. We may not get winter rains until late
October
or early November.
Todd |
| 8/24 |
Some nice
fire and tool photos from Alaska are up on this page from the
Alaska FS and BLM. A click on the 2004 photos takes you to some more
photos of the fire. There are pictures of swatter tools, and sprinklers in
tree
rounds.JG |
| 8/24 |
Ab:
Regarding the question of “when
did the drip torch make its debut?”.
During some late night reading, I ran across an article in “Fire Management
Today” (Volume 63, No. 3, Summer 2003) titled “Lessons from Large Fires on
National Forests in 1938”. This article appears to be a compilation of early
AAR’s. Within the discussion of the Arrowhead Fire on the San Bernardino
Forest was the following comment.
“All line constructed and lost was uncompleted line. All backfire
work that was done was held although it slopped over in places.
Orchard torches were used. No acreage was burned through backfiring
which would not have been lost by the fire anyway.”
This is the earliest documented use of orchard torches (our current drip
torches predecessor) that I have run across. The link to all of the Fire
Management Today issues is
www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/articles_index.html.
SPFD-BC |
| 8/24 |
Government screw up on sawyer qualifications
Ab,
I was just thinking about the S-212 saw class that I set through many years
ago. Now a new and improved version is out on the street. My supervisor
thought it would be good if we all attended. After setting through the first
day I happen to agree. I no longer want to be a sawyer. The old class set
well defined limitations on its sawyers, A's 0-8 dbh, b's 8-24, c's 24 and
up. Now the Agencies have decided not to accept any liability. The only
deciding factor is complexity that is not spelled out. Your skill and
comfort level is how you decide if you have the ability to fell trees now.
This leads me to believe that if you are injured while felling trees, you
will have to prove that you had the ability and the skill. I understand that
the BLM will have task books for its employees, but as usual the USFS will
not.
The newest Tree HuggerAfter deaths from car accidents, faller deaths
rank second if I remember correctly. I wonder what the stats are for
injuries. Ab. |
| 8/24 |
Cabin Fire
A crewmember from my forest just introduced me to this site and the
discussion about the Cabin Fire. I spent the after noon reading comments as
I did with the Safe Nets after reading Doane’s observations. Since I know
many of the participants in this incident I thought it appropriate to offer
some observations.
First, I don't think we can judge Doane’s observations. That is his
observation/interpretation of what happened. It was analyzed and filtered
through his experience bank. The report eloquently states what he thought
went on. Please accept it as another opinion and integrate it into your
individual list of lessons learned.
Secondly, every single one of us that fight fires was inexperienced at one
time. It is a bitter pill to swallow to realize that you don’t know
everything and have not experienced all there is to experience in fire. That
is why it is so important to ask questions and glean the benefit of others
that have a few more “tricks” in the bag. Ask a Jumper, ask a Hotshot; these
firefighters spend their summers traveling all over the country, in all the
different fuel models, on all the large fires, where all the initial attack
activity is happening. Most of them love to tell you what they have seen and
experienced.
Third, there is a wealth of experience and lessons to take from this close
call. Look at the Cabin Fire as a gift that will do more to keep you safe as
a firefighter the rest of your career than a hundred fires where nothing
happened. I wager that the folks on that crew will make sure on every future
fire assignment that they will know where all safety zone options are, they
will evaluate the integrity of the safety zone and personally approve it,
they won’t hesitate to ask the right questions; all of them, and when they
become supervisors they will make sure all their crews working for them know
what they need to know to stay safe.
Have a safe rest of the fire season and make it a point to learn something
on every fire.
Please sign me,
KCMO |
| 8/24 |
jerseyboy,
you mean...you don't like the GSA pulaski?! how can you not like a tool that
comes right outta the box with such a bitchin' cutting edge? yeah.. yeah..
head may be on a little crooked, or have a handle that's bowed like you
could shoot an arrow with it, but look at how beautiful it is with all the
shiny lacquer on it! i'm mean, these are tools that just scream, "YEAH
BABY...WORK IT!!" they are top-notch jerseyboy, so don't be such a wimp
about it when you lose the head. a REAL firefighter would be proud to attack
a fire with only a handle.
joatmon
HAW, HAW! |
| 8/24 |
Fatality fires
article that highlights Cramer.
Yellowjacket |
| 8/23 |
For those of you picking on frustrated...
If GSA is the only legitimate source of purchase with a credit card and all
the equipment sold through GSA is top notch can you explain to me why I've
never seen a FS regular crew that issues GSA webgear? I guess every hot shot
crew and 99% of the other crews out there are guilty of waste fraud and
abuse. GSA sells engines too but many government purchased engines come
through other sources.
GSA is great for many items (chain saws come to mind) but there are some out
there that the gear is not up to the needs of the users in the field (line
packs, that white crummy synthetic hose etc). As a government purchase card
holder we are allowed to buy from other sources and I have found better
bargains than GSA in many cases. I'm not a fan of the Kevlar myself but I
recall 1999 or 2000 they were all the rage with Smoke Jumpers and Helitack,
I never heard any issue with them until the regular ground pounders started
buying them, guess the lowly engine slugs and brush monkeys don't rate top
of the line gear.
I'm curious if GSA is carrying fire equipment but the Feds can't buy it, who
is it for?
Green Gestapo,
keep it up, the region obviously still has its head in the sand, I left the
USFS as a GS7 dropped to a GS5 and nearly doubled my salary when I came over
to the DoD, USFS spent 6 years training me now the DoD gets the benefit and
all because they do a little better job of taking care of their employees
(not much but at least I know I'm going to eat well in the winter). If the
wildland side ever get its house in order I'll be back so fast people will
think there are Santa Ana's blowing in No.California. Getting the GS5's and
6's up to full time is a nice move (although the wording sounded pretty
non-committal to me) but how are you going to keep the experience of the
supervisors when they can get a job paying much more and have no
responsibility? There is a big difference between keeping jobs filled with a
warm body and keeping them filled with experienced quality individuals.
Hugh (and other FWFSA nay sayers),
You may think FWFSA is too slow but can you tell me who else is going to
drag the Wildland side of the Feds into the 21st century? Don't hold your
breath for NFFE. IAFF has done a pretty good job for the DoD side but that's
because there are a lot of us paying dues even though there are quite a few
more Fed wildland firefighters out there. If more wildland firefighters
would cough up the cash to join FWFSA then maybe they could get things going
faster, but with only 200-300 people paying (nearly all in the USFS and in
California) for the other 8000 or so wildland firefighters working for the
Feds you are lucky they've got anything done at all.
Take a look at CDF, don't think the State of California is more generous
than the Feds, the IAFF and CPF have helped to get CDF's firefighters alot
further than the Feds because CDF's firefighters pay to have someone speak
for their interests. That's great that you think everything is fine, but if
you really do think there is nothing wrong that kind of scares me, just some
of the things that have already happened this year makes me wonder who let
the inmates out to run the asylum. Grounding the tankers may or may not have
been a good idea, saying the loss of the Large ATs is not a reason to be
concerned is a clear case of stupidity or out right lying, trying to put a
large number of inexperienced firefighters into leadership positions just
based on race but it is not a concern or a safety issue, again, stupidity or
lying and this latest issue, that it doesn't matter that the USFS is having
a hard time retaining its experienced core? So you are either lucky enough
to work in some remote corner of the globe where these things truly are not
important or you are not paying attention.
Fedfire |
| 8/23 |
my inseem
is 40 but what i said is gsa only makes a 34
so i do order outside of gsa for the national 36
hope that clears things up for you
fellow tax payer |
| 8/23 |
hi ab-
with all the comments about the GSA, it brought up
something i encountered this year while on a large
project fire in southern utah.
i traded in a laser pulaski to the cache, and was
given one with a loose head and crooked handle. i
attempted to give it back, but the manager claimed it
was a perfectly good tool - right out of the box.
sure enough, two swings on mop up popped the head
right off. the next day, we traded again - and again
i was given a tool with crooked handle and a head,
that while on solidly, was placed incorrectly on the
handle (if was a bit tilted). again, i popped the
head off and walked around with a stick for most of
the day.
kind of distressing the the national contract allows
this sort of stuff to happen. (as for breaking the
heads off - its not as if i'm a big guy (6' 150 lbs)
and it was mop up in the desert, not digging bear
grass).
in all my years in fire i've never broken a tool until
now. anyone else notice problems recently with the
new tools?
JerseyBoy |
| 8/23 |
TRIBUTE
Families pay tribute to First Strike firefighters
LO |
| 8/23 |
Ab,
Don’t know if someone has sent this to you or not, but it’s good review for
off-road engine operators.
GreenSheet: Kirker Pass Fire Engine Rollover
GH
I did post the text portion of this earlier, but figured out how to add
the diagram.
Many thanks to those who send in Green Sheets, AARs, and other
Reviews/Reports. Ab. |
| 8/23 |
fellow tax payer......:
I'm 6' 7" and wear a 36in inseam. You say you wear a 40in? I've never seen
any fire pants sold with an inseam longer than 36. In most cases a 36 is
either
listed as XX long or is special order. I'm calling BS on the 40 inch inseam.
Big pants to fill |
| 8/23 |
JS Firehog,
Re: Bland MTN 2
Just curious... what severity resources didn't get used on this fire that
you think should have? Are you saying the fire would have burned less acres
under an interagency dispatch center? It sounds like there is some history
between you and Southern Oregon. What specific actions should have taken
place? From what I know the protection agency used its severity resources,
helicopters, crews and Air Tankers along with an interagency IA response
which included engines, dozers and overhead.
KJC |
| 8/23 |
Ab,
I know that portal-to-portal pay is an important issue to those individual
federal firefighters who aren't getting it now. But that legislation pales
in comparison to what Senate bill S. 2410 would accomplish for the whole
wildland community.
The "Wildland Firefighter Safety Act of 2004" as introduced by Sen.
Cantwell in May would accomplish two things:
#1. It would require the Dept. of Interior and Agriculture agencies to have
a budget line item and track annual expenditures on firefighter safety and
training. They would also have to jointly make an annual report to Congress
about "the implementation and efficacy of wildland firefighter safety and
training programs and activities."
#2. It would also mandate that all private entities comply with NWCG
training standards (310-1, etc.) to be eligible for contracts with federal
agencies for "wildland firefighting services."
Has FWFSA or NWSA taken a stance on this bill?
vfd cap'n |
| 8/23 |
Has anyone else seen this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Memo for Log Chiefs, FDUL's, FACL's and COTR's
Here is a quick update on the National Mobile Food Program.
There are no National Contracts at this time. All of the contracts that
were awarded in July have been reassigned to Melinda Draper. All of these
contracts have been terminated. The Contractors received their
termination letters yesterday. The terminations were due to some protests
that were received. Due to some unusual circumstances surrounding the
procurement, the Agency decided we would terminate and re-solicit after fire
season to have new National Contracts in place for next fire season. Any
questions, comments or concerns regarding the new contract should be
directed to Melinda Draper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Been There |
| 8/23 |
A great web page! I never tire of looking at aerial tanker photos. I
thought you might be
interested in one of my web pages. See my sig.
Bob Ingraham
Vancouver, BC
-------
When I was 19 years old, and more foolish than now, I voluntarily climbed
into a U.S. Forest
Service T-34 "bird dog" aircraft so I could photograph an aerial attack on a
small forest fire.
The short flight ended in disaster. Read about it at
www.ingraham.ca/bob/crash.htm.
------- |
| 8/23 |
Aberdeen, Well i understand your point on gsa vrs us buying other
products with a gov credit card. Well let me say this something gsa has not
figured out is we the firefighters come in difrent sizes than what they
offer, Im talking about the pants. National sells pant in the sizes that
that fit. And fit matters. pants that are to long just drag or rip, ya they
dont last long that way. In my case they are too short they only sell 34 L
in the gsa. Im a 40in inseem yah big diffrence if you ask me. are the
nationals better well in this case they are. Should they be paid for on the
gove credit card? yes, why for me to do my job i need the right gear and
that gear is provided by the gov in which tax me the same as you. Queastion
for do you truthfully wear gsa saftey goggles or saftey glasses or buy the
cleaning supplies from gsa do you ever go down to the local hardware store
and buy things fo projects. Im sure you dont because gsa has everthing you
need when you need it. So the next time you want to complain look around at
the people you work with a see if there needs fit the gsa needs.
fellow tax payer just getting the job done efficently as i can
Was Aberdeen complaining? Ab. |
| 8/23 |
US Citizen:
A few definitions:
FEO....Fire Engine Operator. Usually a supervisory or assistant supervisory
position that is a GS-5 or GS-6 pay level.
CDL....Commercial Drivers License. Class B Driver's license are required for
Engine Operators (drivers) on vehicles that weigh more than 25,000 lbs.
*this may differ from state to state, but generally all large engines
require an operator with a CDL.
The $10,000 referred to by poor and frustrated is a typical income for a
seasonal firefighter. I'm only in my 6th season as a firefighter, and have
already figured out that if it rains during a typical fire season, my budget
for the rest of the year is going to be extremely tight.
The yearly income for a federal wildland firefighter is directly related to
the number of overtime hours you are able to accrue on the fireline during
fire season.
For a GS-4, working a typical 5-6 month season, to make an income in the mid
to high 20's to almost $30,000, he or she would need to work approximately
1000 hours of overtime in those 5 months. That's like jamming a years worth
of work into 5 months. Wildland Firefighters must forfeit a "normal" life
during the summer months. Whether you are on a Hotshot crew traveling around
the nation, or on an initial attack engine or squad tied to a specific
district, you are committed to your resource.
To top it all off, when you get laid off in the fall (maybe even earlier
this year), finding a reasonable paying job for the remainder of the year
proves difficult. Many employers don't really want to hire a workforce that
is only going to stick around a few months.
For more information on base General Schedule (GS) pay rates, check out the
OPM website:
www.opm.gov/oca/04tables/index.asp
JT |
| 8/22 |
Folks, how much a firefighter should be paid is a legitimate debate.
Firefighters want something "fair", and the taxpayer wants to be
"fair".....now we just have to have a good discussion and agree on what
"fair" is.
Support or oppose a position, but Casey is right in that it is unfair to
challenge the sincerity of the FWFSA.
Casey, can you help all of us in better understanding the pending
legislation? Link us to a paper that shows something like:
What will a seasonal GS-4 (step 1) in California make if they get 4 months
work with 400 hours OT (all "H") under current pay regs?
Same scenario under the proposed legislation?
Alternatives considered?
And thanks for the work you have done to date, and your continuing efforts.
Old Fire Guy |
| 8/22 |
Frustrated Once Again - the issue of Nomex pants has been coming up for
years, as has the issue of GSA vs. Bullard hardhats. The idea of having a
purchasing group like GSA buy stuff that meets the MTDC & NFPA standards is
that it save us - you and me as American taxpayers - lots of $$. Personally,
I have no problem if you want to spend YOUR $$ to buy pants, hardhats,
gloves, packs or any other fire items that you like better than the MTDC/GSA
item. I DO have a problem when you spend MY taxpayer $$, especially when it
specifically against the current USFS/USDI policy to do so.
All the GSA equipment meets recognized safety standards. The folks at GSA
put a complaint card in the back of each catalog every year, and most years
less than 10 are returned. What is your technically based reason for
violating the purchase regs to get the "Best, most comfortable" pants at
about double the cost from GSA.
No one ever said we were going to buy the "Best" for the government: most of
the USFS Green Fleet cars (in fact, nearly all Fed/State/County) are Fords
or Chevy's, not Volvos: "The Safest Car on the Road". Do you drive a Volvo
as your personal car, regardless of expense? Or, are you just willing to
have the US taxpayers buy you "the best" ?
Last time I talked to the folks at MTDC about PPE, they were open to
comments and critiques, but still had to follow the federal procurement regs.
Have you contacted them? I'm sure they'd also like documented failures of
the GSA products on entrapments/burnovers. I can't remember reading anything
about pants or hardhats failing in any of the Investigation reports.
Still feel that you need the Kevlar pants or a Bullard 911H hardhat instead
of the GSA product? Feel free to buy them with your own personal credit
card, not the one I help pay off with my tax dollars.
Aberdeen |
| 8/22 |
Hugh, if you feel the FWFSA isn't working behind the scenes for you AND
ALL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS.... here's the reality check..... Ask Casey or any
FWFSA Officer or Director if you have any questions.
H.R.2963
Title: To amend title 5, United States Code, to provide for portal-to-portal
compensation for wildland firefighters, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Pombo, Richard W. [CA-11] (introduced 7/25/2003) Cosponsors
(26)
Latest Major Action: 8/25/2003 Referred to House subcommittee. Status:
Referred to the Subcommittee on Civil Service and Agency Organization.
COSPONSORS (26)
Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] - 7/25/2003
Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] - 7/25/2003
Rep Honda, Michael M. [CA-15] - 7/25/2003
Rep DeFazio, Peter A. [OR-4] - 7/25/2003
Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] - 7/25/2003
Rep Ose, Doug [CA-3] - 7/25/2003
Rep Cunningham, Randy (Duke) [CA-50] - 7/25/2003
Rep Gibbons, Jim [NV-2] - 7/25/200 | |
