hahahahahaha <clutching sides> <rolling on floor> <hiccup> I did wonder who I
would reel in on the IC Bennett as National Weather Service! Thanks, I needed that.

I know Alaska has only one team, did Dash tenure out or retire? As far as I could
tell he was IC in late spring. Or did I miss a change then? Who is Lynn Wilcock?

I didn't realize that CA no longer has 5 IMTs. Which one disbanded? Neh, now
you gotta be trolling! :O)

I know the teams change year to year and ¿apparently? even within one season?¿

The thing I rediscovered earlier today by looking closely at who is on the teams
is that they are remarkably diverse and, from what I've observed in other situations,
members like each other and work well together! Hallelujah!!

Mellie

Sincerely,
Sherman

jde

JD

Excellent slide show on LEADERSHIP by Colin Powell. I added the quote to the Quotes list. Ab.

I was curious. Here's a breakdown of which agency the ICs on the the Type I IMTs work for:

Pacific NW Area: IC Anderson of PNW3 is Spokane Co FD when he's not IC. IC Lohrey PNW2 is Forest Service.
California: All 5 ICs are Forest Service
Northern Rockies: IC Bennett, is NWS (National Weather Service); IC Frye is National Park Service (GNP)
Great Basin: IC Sexton is Forest Service; IC Martin is Forest Service. Their rosters are hosted on a BLM server.
Rocky Mountains: IC Hart has CO-PBS as a home unit, Colorado State Forest Service?
Southwest: IC Oltrogge is National Park Service; IC Whitney is  Fish and Wildlife Service
Southern Area: IC Kearney is Forest Service; IC Ferguson is Forest Service
Alaska: IC Dash is BLM, don't know about IC Wilcock.

10 FS, 2 NPS, 1 BLM, 1 FWS, 1 NWS, 1 Spokane Co FD, 1 Colorado State Forest Service(?)
Hmmmm, 17. I thought there were 16... Type I teams

I learned something.
Fedfire, thanks for the reply.

Mellie

Southern Area lists both Red team and Blue team as Type I, that is, before they took down their main info pages. Ab.

GG

I have heard it's the Mt St Helens web cam and people seeking info on the Gifford Pinchot NF that's slowing down the FS server. Ab.

Here's some info: NWCG Historical Wildland Firefighter Fatalities 1910 - 1996 pdf file. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a message from the Department of Homeland Security/U.S. Fire Administration. You may submit your comments or request additional information by contacting USFA through our web site at: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/applications/feedback/
------------------

September 29, 2004

MEMBERS FROM THREE INCIDENT MANAGEMENT TEAMS TRAVEL TO FLORIDA

Teams being developed using the U.S. Fire Administration (USFA) All-Hazards IMT Technical Assistance Program learn first-hand about IMT operations during major emergencies

Emmitsburg, MD- Members from the Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and National Capital Region "Type 3" Incident Management Teams (IMTs) were recently teamed with Federal IMTs operating in response to Hurricanes Frances, Ivan and Jeanne. The purpose was to partner and observe their counterparts on Federal "Type 1" IMTs and to monitor their functions, tasks, and responsibilities to gain hands-on experience at an actual incident. The shadowing assignments were coordinated by the USFA in partnership with the U.S. Forest Service (USFS). The USFS coordinates the Type 1 IMTs and Type 2 IMTs, both of which are Federal resources that are trained and equipped to manage large-scale incidents and disasters.

"Developing local, regional, and state incident management teams will support the National Incident Management System," said Michael Brown, Undersecretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response Directorate within the Department of Homeland Security. "The interface between these IMTs and Federal assets is critical during a disaster, as we have seen with Hurricanes Charlie, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne. There is no better way to prepare the IMT members than to have them see these operations in real-time."

Currently, Type 3 IMTs are being developed at the State and Regional levels across the country, to include team training and mentoring, position-specific training, and shadowing. A Type 3 IMT is a standing team of trained personnel from different departments, organizations, agencies, and jurisdictions within a state or DHS Urban Area Security Initiative region, activated to support incident management at major or complex emergency incidents or special events that extend beyond one operational period. Type 3 IMTs will respond and operate within the State, depending upon State-specific laws, policies, and regulations.

In addition, the USFA All-Hazard IMT Technical Assistance Program is helping develop Types 4 and 5 IMTs at the local level across the country. For more information on this program, contact the USFA's All-Hazards IMT Technical Assistance Program office at (301) 447-7888 or FEMA-AHIMT@dhs.gov.

On March 1, 2003, FEMA became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration.

I THINK NOT!!!

Firefighter SAFETY should come FIRST. Action should be taken prior to the
situation becoming a full blown medical emergency! The Salmon-Challis leadership
should NOT be allowed to continue putting firefighters at risk! The environment
simply  yells FIREFIGHTER LIVES ON THIS FOREST ARE NOT VALUED!
It's an atmosphere in which accidents are encouraged to happen! My god, what
does it take for these people to learn the Corrective Action should be more than
Cover Your Ass??

Tahoe Terrie

I never said there was no relationship between politics and firefighting or firefighters. I said there was no relationship between Eva Schicke's death and the politics surrounding the binding arbitration bill. True, politics and politicians impact nearly every aspect of our daily lives whether we know it or not, like it or not. But not every aspect. Rest assured Mr. Judd I am not so naive as to believe otherwise, nor do I need a lesson in Politics 101 to understand "the much bigger picture of the relationship between politics and firefighting".

One problem with Mr. Paulson's statement is that he was not referring to the big picture of fire service related politics. He was responding to the veto of a very specific bill and included a reference to a particular dead firefighter. The bill - binding arbitration, was/is, at its core, all about money. Not fireline safety. The bill had nothing to do with anything that goes on out on the line. No element of that legislation would have had the slightest impact on the events of that tragic Sunday afternoon had it been signed instead of vetoed. Eva's death and the binding arbitration bill are completely unrelated.

You use the horrors of Sept 11, 2001 as an example of the connection between politics and the fire service in an attempt to justify and rationalize Mr. Paulson's statement. Yes indeed, firefighters and politicians of every stripe used the tragedy of September 11 to focus attention on how the service had been left to rot in recent decades since "raise taxes" became a four letter word in this country. They used it to focus on the closed houses, the understaffed engines, the obsolete equipment, the lack of up-to-the-minute training and technology, and on and on. It was the clarity of focus resulting from the Trade Center devastation that resulted in the SAFER and FIRE acts; two pieces of legislation that relate directly to the safety and operational capabilities of firefighters. These two acts succeeded because politicians, union lobbyists and agency administrators worked together to bring about change that would have a direct impact on the safety of firefighters. Using the terror of September 11, 2004 to bring attention to and pressure toward passage of the SAFER and FIRE acts was legitimate because those pieces of legislation would have a direct impact on the safety and capabilities of firefighters in the future. The legislation and the firefighting were/are connected. But this example has no relevance to Mr.. Paulson's statement.

There are other examples of legislators and agencies responding to tragedy or newly discovered deficiencies by working to pass new laws or change policies. The USFS was motivated by the tragedy in Mann Gulch to begin development of what would become the Ten Standard Firefighting Orders. The disaster at Storm King Mtn. has resulted in significant changes in everything from firefighter attitudes to fireline procedures. The Thirty Mile catastrophe also wrought significant change. Whether it was Mann Gulch in 1949, or the Thirty Mile fire in 2001 providing the motivation, administrators and politicians have rightfully used those events as springboards to innovation in policy or procedures designed to improve the safety of firefighters. And in each case, the changes resulting from these terrible events by in large related directly and specifically to fire line operations. Not conference room wrangling over wages and benefits. It can be said that the legislation and or policy and procedure changes were directly connected to the firefighting.

I have to ask. Does NYFD enjoy the right to binding arbitration? If so, how does that fact connect to the death or survival of those brave NYFD souls, or the saving of firefighter lives in the future? Whether they enjoy that right or not has no bearing on whether firefighters lived or died on September 11, 2004. And it will have no relevance to the safety of firefighters in the future. Just like our recently vetoed binding arbitration bill has no relevance to Ms. Schicke's death or the future safety of firefighters like her.

It's clear then Mr. Judd that your use of the September 11th attack as an example of the connection between firefighting and politics is erroneous when used in this debate. Not because it doesn't highlight how politics is often brought to bear after a tragedy to make positive changes. But because it and the other examples highlight how the subsequent politics result in changes relevant to the tragic event that motivated them. The key is relevance. If one is to use your reasoning, now that Mr. Paulson has used Eva's death to "raise the awareness of those who have the ability to affect positive change" we can hope for the passing and signing into law of a new binding arbitration bill as legislators, union lobbyists and fire department administrators rush to correct a deficient system that has for years put firefighters at risk. And as a result of this new binding arbitration bill, firefighters like Eva will be less likely to die on the fire line, right? Oh... ... wait. NOT! Passage of this bill would have done nothing to save Eva. If another such bill is passed and signed tomorrow it will have absolutely no effect what so ever on the future safety of firefighters like her. It will have not even the slightest direct impact on the way we work out on the lines. It will have no means of preventing the causal effects of Ms. Schicke's death from occurring in the future. Why? Because unlike SAFER, FIRE, the Ten Standard Orders or the Thirty Mile Protocols, in this case the legislation is not relevant to the firefighting, the veto not relevant to firefighter safety. Binding arbitration and Eva Schicke ... the two are utterly unrelated!

Let's look at a what if, and ponder what Mr. Paulson's response might have been had the Governor signed the bill. Any chance Mr. Paulson's statement would have read something like this: "We applaud the Governor for acknowledging the sacrifice of Ms. Schicke by signing this important bill. Now Eva can rest peacefully knowing that her brothers and sisters have the right to binding arbitration. Firefighters now and in the future will have the tool they need to protect themselves and their crews while engaged in the most dangerous of endeavors - that tool? Binding arbitration." Not a chance! Instead he and his peers would probably be congratulating themselves for a long and valiant political fight well fought. It is likely they would have remarked publicly that it was the right thing for the Governor to do, that equity has been achieved, in part anyway... but now we must fight for equitable pay. And surely they would have been pleased to call the Governor a friend to Firefighters, and likely as not, slipped a contribution under the door. I can't imagine any reference to Eva had the bill been signed. And rightly so. Because binding arbitration and Eva Schicke's death are not connected in any way. And there would have been no reason to try and embarrass the Governor.

Let's now compare and contrast Mr. Paulson's statement with that of my own Union President, Mr. Bob Wolf, which was posted upon learning of the veto (<http://www.cdffirefighters.org/newsreports/> ). Despite the fact that the vetoed bill was to specifically benefit those whom Bob represents, of which Eva was one, not one word in his statement so much as alludes to her death. I'd like to believe that he made no reference to her death in his statement because he understands where politics and firefighters are and are not connected within the big picture. It would have been nice had Mr. Paulson exhibited the same understanding. Had Mr. Paulson been responding to a veto of a bill that mandated upper level fire behavior training for all CDF personnel including seasonal firefighters; a bill that mandated an increase in engine staffing; a bill that set in place minimum physical fitness standards; a bill that would have put new fire behavior prediction technologies into the hands of fire ground officers; any bill at all that had any relevance what-so-ever to fire line operations and safety, I could have accepted his comments as sad but true. But no. He chose to reference her death in regards to a bill dealing with the inner most details of contract negotiations. And worst of all he used Eva's death in an attempt to embarrass the Governor. Again I say, with the utmost certainty that he was wrong to do so. And the examples and rationalizations you offer in his defense Mr. Judd are, frankly, weak and patronizing. If Mr. Paulson's remarks are an example of the relationship between politics and firefighting then I fear our profession is in trouble. When one of the leaders of our profession, a man reputed to be "personable, honest and caring", exhibits so little regard for human feelings and has so little understanding of the impact of his politics that he would release such a statement to the press, then our entire profession, our brother/sisterhood is severely diminished in the eyes of those he purports to represent and the hearts of those we serve.

To his credit, Mr. Paulson has apologized, at least to me and my crew. For that I have thanked him verbally and by letter. I even admit the return of a measure of respect for Lou for having the sack to call and apologize. Even so I will continue to argue vigorously, until fires cease to rage, that he was wrong. And I imagine that you and he will argue the opposite view likewise. So be it. It just goes to show that some of the best fights are between "brothers".

Never Forget; Never Again!
Bruce Lodge FC
Columbia Helitack

( Thanks again AB ! )

If so, do you take the DIVS or the Branch Commander's word for LCES being met?
I know there'll be a resounding "no" on that one.
If wildland and structure firefighters are working together or if structure is supervised by wildland, do you take the wildland overhead's perception as truth (safe enough) or the structure supt's perception as truth (not safe enough under these conditions and for these firefighters that I'm responsible for)? What if they don't agree? (Even if it's in the yellow pocket guide on page 18 how to refuse? and come to an agreement.) This may or may not be about meeting checklists or safety directives. It may be about gut feelings and you use the pocket guide to back yourself up and you get a bad review anyway. Who's to say you weren't right? Theoretically, pressures external to the fire can filter down to affect overhead decisions when politics, media pressure etc are present.

It seems that beyond the LCES safety issues, if you're a engine strike team leader you also have to consider the experience of, say, the particular group of engines you supervise and the comfort level and understanding of your people. If they are primarily structure engines, the firefighters on them may be less comfortable with a raging wildland fire, the one way in/out, the proposed safety zone, etc. What one wildland commander might think has mitigated LCES might change in moments from the perspective of the groundpounders or structural firefighters. LCES has to shift with the fire, with the location of the firefighters, etc. Look at the photos of the Cedar Fire. That fire was really going. LCES was changing moment by moment for many days in a row. Structures were lost there. A structural firefighter lost his life.

I may not be putting this very well. Mostly I'm wondering about a negative paper trail blaming those who might have refused for good reason from their perspective. My only experience is wildland. I do remember back to several hotshot supts who refused to go downhill on a slopover off the Denny Road in '99. I know now the supts were recalling the Loop Fire and Storm King. (On the Loop didn't some crew refuse before the El Cariso went?) The fire behavior, time of day, etc in this case were different than occurred prior to and during those tragedies. There was a lookout, several even; it was early in the day; and inversion and 18 inch flame lengths had been the rule in days prior. FOBS had been walking other parts of the fire's perimeter using the black as safety zone. After some discussion and several refusals, the Branch and the Safety Officer went downhill first to flag it and personally observe the conditions. I know now that this was very unusual, but at the time it seemed reasonable to me. The slopover was hooked by other crews from above and below. But did the hs supts that refused get some kind of "bad letter" for their refusal? Probably not, I hope not. They're excellent firefighters and leaders making the best decisions for their crews. If they did, could that letter have been reviewed? Is there a formal process? In the overall scheme of things would existence of such a letter hurt the supts involved? I'm just using this as a "for instance" but I am wondering if such a letter in someone's file (if such things even exist) is another pressure to not refuse to build line when ordered or to save this neighborhood or not. It seems to me that Hotshot supts have more mental toughness, experience and intestinal fortitude for every decision they make than do other supts of engines, dozers, mixed resources, etc. Hopefully strike team leaders do as well when safety is in the balance.

I know, some (Old Fire Guy <chuckle>) will say that good firefighters will talk it over with overhead and mitigate. What if you think you've done that? Say the fire environment is like the Cedar Fire and you feel you've arrived at a reasonable solution to fall back - and then later you later get a notice of a bad performance?

LCES, size of safety zone, reasonable escape route, even lookout can be a nebulous thing in a changing fire environment. I hope strike team leaders, engine captains, hotshot supts continue to take care of their people first without fear of reprimand.

Can anyone tell me what is standard operating procedure for evaluating intermediate management folks performance (supts, STLs)? Do files of letters exist - good and bad? Are bad reviews weighed against good ones? Does a bad review matter? (I'd be pissed.) Is there a standard process for reviewing bad reviews and offering your perspective after the fact? Has anyone done this and not been called a trouble maker? Wow, lots I don't have a clue about.

Mellie

There are some spectacular photos on Handcrews 15 of the Pleasant Valley Hotshots on the Blackwall and Willow Fires compliments of BG.

BG said, "The Blackwall fire was in 2003 and took place on the border of Montana and Idaho on the Continental divide. This day "Big Ernie" nuked off 2,000 acres in about 20 min." Of the Willow Fire he said, " Here's a picture of crew buggies with the Willow fire in the background. PV was the first crew, IA the fire when it was about 150 acres and PV was the last crew to leave when it was 120,000 acres."

I posted a photo of sent in by Steve L on Helicopters 16. He said, "This is N407S landing atop Desolation Peak in Washington during a Palm IR flight on the Freezeout Complex, 2004. There wasn't much room to hang on to and the 'helipad' was barely bigger then the skids. And no, I didn't look up, I just raised the camera and went for it...."

Thanks contributors. As always, your photos reveal what you do and are interesting to look at.

Ab.

JG

Copter 404
Heading Home

BN

Thanks BN. Ab.

vt-cowboy

Thanks cowboy. I put it on the Air Tankers 12 photo page. Ab.

Bennett's Northern Rockies Type 1 Team is managing a base camp at Saufley Field Naval Air Station in Pensacola, FL.
A Georgia State Type 2 Incident Management Team (Cline) is assigned to Saufley Field Naval Air Station in Pensacola, FL to support the receiving and distribution of relief supplies.

Sexton's Great Basin Type 1 Team is managing an Operational Staging Area at Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, AL.

Anderson's PNW 3 Type 1 Team is assigned in Milton, FL and is managing a base camp and supporting the receiving and distribution of
supplies.

Wilcock's Alaska Type 1 Team is assigned in central Alabama and is managing a base camp and supporting the receiving and distribution of supplies in nine counties.

Lohrey's PNW 2 Type 1 Team is managing a base camp and supporting the receiving and distribution of supplies in Baldwin County, AL.
A North Carolina State Type 2 Incident Management Team (Houseman) is assigned to the Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, FL and is supporting the receiving and distribution of relief supplies.

Kearney's Southern Area "Blue"  Type 1 Team is staged in Atlanta, GA.
Frye's Northern Rockies Type 1 Incident Management Team has been ordered.

I just posted some photos of the Simi Fire taken on Oct 26-28, 2003 by Battalion Chief Keith Burson, South Placer Fire District. They're on the Grand Prix-Old-Simi Fires Photo Page. They start with "Making a Stand". Thanks Keith.

Here are some photos of Pleasant Valley IHC including - hotshot wedding, Pulaski wedding arch, birthday on the line and taking a break on the KP Fire. And a good time was had by all. I put them on the Handcrews 15 Photo page. Thanks BG.

Ab.

Fire history story of the MN Boundary Waters.
The Forest for the Trees

Fire and Ashes: The Last Survivor of the Mann Gulch Fire
by John N. Maclean
Bob Sallee was a living legend, the last survivor of the Mann Gulch fire, the forest fire that had killed thirteen men on an August day in 1949 in a draw northwest of Helena, Montana. Sallee had been two weeks shy of eighteen years old when he parachuted into Mann Gulch, his first-ever fire jump. As he floated down, he felt little except a rush of adrenaline at the prospect of what lay ahead. In the aftermath of the disaster, youth and mental toughness helped Sallee put disaster behind him. Decades later, though, he felt the pull of the gulch. A series of events - a return visit to Mann Gulch, a memorial get-together, the publication of Norman Maclean's Young Men and Fire, and the deaths of the other two Mann Gulch survivors, Walter Rumsey and Wag Dodge-cast him in a star role. A tough, bluff man, Sallee had no desire to relive ancient trouble. Under the influence of revived memories, though, his attitude began to change. By renewing old ties, he learned the depth of the fire's effect on the loved ones of those who had not been able to walk away as he had. And he came to appreciate the importance of his memories to solving the mystery of what really happened as the orange flames catapulted forward on heavy winds toward the smokejumpers.

Cutting and removing of trees to reduce the threat of wildfire will be exempt
from timber harvesting plan requirements if various requirements are met.
AB2420, by Assemblyman Doug LaMalfa, R-Biggs.

hi my name is kevin im on a tsi crew in seirra national forest just wondering
if any body has more info on how this may affect timber harvesting- could
this mean we will once again be able to cut 30 dbh trees for harvest just
wondering any further info would be great.

tsi guy

kdillon@calpoly.edu

• CA will require firebreaks of at least 100' around homes in areas where the state has firefighting responsibilities and in high-fire-risk areas patrolled by local firefighters. Insurers may require even wider breaks around certain homes. SB1369, by Sen. Sheila Kuehl, D-Santa Monica.
• The state forestry department will be able to pre-certify military pilots to fight wildfires, similar to programs now for National Guard pilots. SB1526,  by Sen. Dennis Hollingsworth, R-Murrieta.

Forests:

• Cutting and removing of trees to reduce the threat of wildfire will be exempt from timber harvesting plan requirements if various requirements are met. AB2420, by Assemblyman Doug LaMalfa, R-Biggs.

SoCal CDF

The following information on the Mack II Fire comes from interview notes in my files, not from the official report.

Fire Date is September 19, 1971, Fatality is Robert Maxwell Miller.
The three other USFS employees on the engine with Miller where Bruce Mitchell, Larry Smith and Ron Court. Ron Court was the individual closet to Miller as they came back up the hillside.

The engine was out of Vista Grand or Granda? Station in the Banning area.
Fire Location is about 2 1/2 miles south of Banning on a track of 160 degrees.

Fuel conditions at the time of the fire are:

• 2.0 tons acre Chamise
• 1.0 tons acre White Sage
• 8.0 tons acre Manzanita / assorted brush
• 1.0 tons light grasses

Live fuel was:

• 69% Chamise
• 126% Manzanita

Dead Fuel was:

• 4.0-6.7% White Sage (Ten hour)
• 2.5% Grasses

Slope along the hoseline is 35% towards the bottom to 66% at the top by the guard rail.

FOBS73

EC

No-No

I assume you can make a fire connection here? Ab.

Fire Burns 100 acres on the LP

Hot List Forum says there's a column building since this article came out. Ab.

Thanks
Cy

Ab will pass any info along.

In my estimation, they're equal and deserve equal respect.

NorCal Tom

"Over the next five years, the Interagency Type 1 and Type 2 Incident Management Teams and
Area Command Teams will turn over 92% of their Command and General Staffs (473 of 512
positions) due to retirements, tenure, or inability or unwillingness to participate.

The NIMO Study offers agencies with wildland fire responsibilities a clear choice in both
leadership and management of complex incident management.
Choosing a “non-NIMO” option will either fail to improve complex incident management or will
result in many years of implementation because of the evolution of policy changes proposed.
The unknown realities of response to the National Response Plan, and the increasing workload in
wildland fire responses, coupled with the declining numbers of qualified people to staff IMT’s in
a volunteer militia management philosophy, may create a Federal Wildland Fire Service or the
Homeland Security Agency may seize a lead nationally in all complex incident management
needs for the future, including wildland fires."

Todd

PS Ab, OMG! They're quoting John Maclean as some kind of a justification. Now ain't that about the asses patoot!

OMG= Oh my god. Ab.

Are you from the East? I have heard there's even less support for fire
teams in R8 and R9 and fewer teams than in the West. If so, I feel for
you.

Skids

Thanks for the photo of Copter 404 and the crew. I will remember Eva smiling.

AL

I put it on Helicopters 16 photo page. Ab.

Draft NIMO Report is in pdf:
Part a
Part b
Part c
Part d
Part e

I'm proud of you too. <haw, haw> You provide some good advice, but sometimes the knee jerks make for interesting reading. Ab.

CN

Huge flamage. Thanks CN. I posted them on Fire 23, Fire 24 and Handcrews 15 photo pages. Ab.

R

This photo came in some time back and I've only just gotten to it. I put it on the Equipment 8 photo page. Ab.

Rest in peace "Little Sister".

Rush, Copter 103 CA-LNU (73/75), CA-SAC, NorCal 2

BT

Search for missing plane continues in northwestern Montana
www.billingsgazette.com

BB

Wildland Firefighter Foundation, 52 Club

Well said, Vicki. I know why they call you an angel. Thank you for all you do. Burk, thank you also for your outreach with the trailer.

The Abs of wildlandfire.com, #1 on the 52 Club Gold List.

"Another CDF BC" I was really proud of CDF and the fire community yesterday.
I was also reminded of Eva as I drove past every station between NorCal and San
Francisco and saw the flags at half staff. I thought of others lost, too --Steve
Rucker's family, friends, and coworkers as we passed his station in Novato.

Healing the loss of a loved one takes time. I hope the CDFers and others who put
such time and love into the ceremony will also join the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
52 Club. Families of fallen firefighters and all in the fire community need the
opportunity for healing the Foundation provides.

Thanks Ab for the forum.

Mellie, living the dream "The Power of One" ("ONE" #7)

I posted some really fine photos of the French Fire on Fire 24. Thanks to Andrew H for the fine shots of the Bear and French fires.

Also posted some good photos of engines at work by Nick B and biggins on the Engines 11 and Engines 12 photo pages. Take a look at the photo description pages for the full story.

There are some photos on Handcrews 15 of the Apple Valley (Helicopter 554) crew in 2003 on the Black Mountain Fire outside Missoula, MT compliments of Don G.

Posted some Fireboss airtanker photos sent in by Jorge, a Spanish firefighter, on Airtankers 12.

A CZU firefighter sent in a photo of a CDF dozer and transport. That's on Equipment 8.

Thanks contributors.

Ab.

AC, if you are the rep, email advertising@wildlandfire.com for a classified ad. Ab.

Thousands Gather To Remember Eva Schicke
including video of the procession

Fallen Firefighter Eva Marie Schicke will begin her final journey home on September 20th, 2004. The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, Tuolumne-Calaveras Unit, requests all California fire agencies observe a moment of silence at 1000 hours, Monday September 20th to honor Eva and reflect upon her ultimate act of service and commitment as she begins her final response.

Jeff, THANK YOU for being the first CA IMT member to join the Wildland Firefighter Foundation 52 Club. I know there are CA firefighters who are also team members who have joined as individuals, but Jeff, I really appreciate the public acknowledgement of your Team membership after your name. For this kind of support of our fire families to really work, we need everyone's support, including team members' support. I hear there's a challenge out there in R5. Thanks for that as well.

Many thanks to other teams especially the Great Basin teams and hotshot crews who took up the torch for this cause early this fire season. Thanks also to Chief Bosworth for his support in more ways than one, including "walking the walk" with his membership check.

Mellie, living the dream "The Power of One"

www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html#augusta Ab.

as you get older it gets harder,
ken (down under)

I agree. Layman's English would be an excellent idea. Absent that, our Acronyms List works well for US fire acronyms. Ab.

On another topic -- ACRONYMs

In the Airtanker world before ICS typing there were Small, Medium, and
Large airtankers. The large AT's were known as GBMFs: Great Big Muther
F______'s. Now, in the more sensitive ordering process, there are LATs
(including mediums because too many resource orders requested Type 1-Turbine
only), SEATs (because the single engine airtanker was reinvented), and the
small guys still called Type 3. At least change is the most common element
of life. Anyway, when someone yelled "here comes a GBMF'" you knew what was
inbound.

J.Watt

<big HUG>

Also sending out best wishes and lots of love to Shane's family and Eva's family and the
Greyback families who are visiting the Monument today. We all miss our fallen brothers
and sisters. May their families and close friends find Peace.

Mellie

The 72 hour Greensheet should be out. Anyone have a copy? Ab.

Death of young firefighter sobering for her colleagues

Did it. Ab.

I was new to firefighting this season. Back in June one of my ff on my crew said that R stands for Region. I knew that. I didn't know only Forest Service has regions like we call them R this and R that. This guy said there is no Forest Service in R7 because there are no forests in what would be R7, only BLM lands. He said he knew because he used to work for the BLM. Now I don't know if this is true because this guy is a real trikster. He also said that regions used to go up to 11. I told him I thought that was BS. But this question about what happened to R7 is not the kind of a question new guys ask too many people. I try to save my questions for things that help you survive, like What's a blue room? and what do you mean by "cluster"? and this meat shouldn't be green, should it?

KSS

PS Thinking about it now, he was pulling my leg. What did happen to R7. Someone couldn't count?

All this talk about Wheel Chock made me take a picture of my NFPA 1906 Compliant Wheel Chocks I had made to meet the specs. I got almost $300.00 into my set for my 22.5 inch Wheels on my Water Tender. I had to add a little to them to make them 1/2 inch wider and 1 inch taller so they would fit the tires according to the Code. At the beginning of 2004 Season they required these to meet the specs, people complained  then they allowed rubber ones and even a guy who made a set out of wood 4X4s Banded together with Banding Straps?! Maybe this year they will go back to the 1906 NFPA Codes and it will be worth the trouble & money I went thru to get these made! They do work good for the job intended.

Mark

You are quite handy... If you list the "ingredients" you might even win the recipe contest. Ab.

"Can anyone tell me... what are private FRA lands? If SRA are State Responsibility
Area, are they Fed Responsibility Area? If so, what private owners would make
their lands FRA?"

Just a guess but private buildings on Federal land? Examples being the many cabins on National Forests land leased to individuals, the concessionaires buildings in the National parks (Awhanie (sp?) hotel or Camp Curry in Yosemite, buildings on mining claims, ranch land etc on BLM and USFS land.

Question for Everyone:

Looking at returning to the wildland, can anyone suggest progressive NPS, USFS, BLM, F&WS (Federal WL) in Northern / Central CA, (but would consider Western Nevada) that would be interested in a well trained structural FF with company officer experience that also has USFS experience as an SFEO (GS7)? I understand the majority of Fed WL agencies won't be getting ladder trucks anytime soon but I can't take the "we don't do that attitude" . Just looking for suggestions, so I can narrow my searching.

The kid is now old enough to understand why I would be gone for days or week at a time and I'm really missing the wildland. Also, I need trees and water, no deserts.

What is the current hiring method used now, the USFS seems to have gone through several and some of the others seem to go back and forth with USAJOBS and their own thing. Thanks

AW

Good one Oliver! Mellie never cuts slack.
I think we should have a contest for the best Wheel Chocks Recipe.

Mellie

Mellie

Ab, please add:

Tahoe Terrie, wasn't there something on the National Incident
Management Organization (NIMO) from NWCG last year?

Let me google it... Ah, here it is, a ppt. NIMO on this site.
Wonder what came out of that?

Wow, this came up too.
www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/swamgmt/admin/swcg/swcg_documents/nimo_report-draft_6_e.pdf
hmmm (goes a to d for the full draft)

Yesterday's SIT REPORT.

9 IMTs involved... and
2 Area Command Teams.

For Frances: 3IIMTs -- Kearney, Vail, Oltrogge;
3IIMTs Bennett, Anderson and Ferguson have been ordered.
Area Command Team -- Mann's Team

For Ivan: 3 IIMTs --Wilcock, Lohrey, Sexton;
Area Command Team -- Williams-Rhodes' Team

Look at the 16 Type I IMTs we have, of which 9 are committed or in transition and
the 4 Area Command Teams, of which 2 are committed. Half the resources committed.

What if simultaneously with hurricanes we were having another fire year like last year with the SoCal fires? or a year like 2000... and very few large Air Tankers? Last year we needed all the teams and all the resources in our toolbox simply to handle FIRE.

What if, god forbid, there was also some terrorist incident?

Who decides? As someone asked, can team members say no? I'm not saying they should... Have these issues been discussed at the Regional Level or by the WO? There is increasing complexity, responsibility and risk in our jobs that is not being addressed with job descriptions, with attention to retention issues, with firefighter job series. The CREEP in all those areas is a bit frightening. We are professionals. My friends and I act as professionals even without the recognition.

Training is doing better. I do see the Academy bringing bright and capable new people along and trying to get them college credit, but experience takes experiences of the right sort. We don't have BD crews, we don't have fire behavior experience/training on the ground with live fire that we had when we did have BD crews. Where do you get that experience in fire behavior on the ground so you don't get deposited on a southfacing slope at 1330 with a light NW breeze and fire flashing over you and your crew?

We certainly don't have HAZMAT in many places or training in how to deal with biological contamination.

We don't keep some really good potential leaders of the future that we work so hard to train and mentor along. What's the point in training them?

I love the FS and I mostly love my job, but I wonder if anyone looks at the larger picture at a level higher than where I'm at. Where's the vision? When is it going to filter down in some critical ways I've mentioned? Will it take the creation of a Federal Fire Service for wildland firefighting before some changes occur?

Thanks Ab for adding links...

cum'on Toto, bring your nomex
Tahoe Terrie, feeling like she's living in a "state of OZ"

Yer welcome. Ab.

NFPA Standard 1906 for Wildland Fire Apparatus
2 wheel chocks with solid bottoms
Each wheel chock must hold a fully loaded vehicle on a 15% slope
2 wheel chocks must hold a fully loaded vehicle on a 30% slope
Wheel chocks must have a height as high as the bottom of the rims on the
truck that it will be used with
Wheel chocks must have a solid bottom to prevent sinking in soft soil
Wheel chock must have a face beveled at a 30-50 degree angle
Wheel chock must be 2/3 as wide as the tire
Wheel chock base must be 1.4 times the height or greater
Wheel chock must have a heel behind the top tire contact point of the chock
as long as 1/2 the height of the wheel chock

The source of this information was the NRCG equipment inspectors workshop,
hope that helps.

MT Smokey

Mellie

G. Personnel.
The leaders on the Inaja fire were capable and experienced. They were trained in accordance with recognized Forest Service standards. There is, however, need for more intensive advanced fire behavior training for key fire supervisory personnel.

Recommendations of the Investigative Team
A. It was strongly brought out by the investigation that better knowledge of fire behavior must be developed as an essential means of preventing future fire tragedies.

Todd

JB

The report is a very fat (almost 6000K) pdf file that takes quite some time to download even on a high speed system. They've included the greensheet and a report on the Inaja Burnover. Be patient. If you have trouble, you could try downloading it when activity on their server is low. You could also email me for an alternative idea. Ab.

To: All Public Agencies and Friends

A Full Honors Procession and Funeral for fallen CDF Firefighter Eva Schicke will be held Monday, September 20, 2004, 2:00 PM at the Calaveras County Fairgrounds amphitheater. CDF is requesting that all those planning to attend please respond by noon Sunday, September 19, 2004.

The following numbers are available for your RSVP; (209)533-6612, 533-6613, 533-6614. Fire agencies are asked to provide number of apparatus with identifiers, number of personnel, and chief officer’s name. Similarly law enforcement should provide number of cars, personnel, and lead officer. Dignitaries and public officials are asked to call so that we can follow-up with further details. Large departments and individual CDF Units should call from a single point of contact.

Federal Agencies are asked to respond within their own organizations as follows; attendees representing the USDA Forest Service should call Sandy Beardon at (209) 532-3671 ext 232, and all Bureaus within the Department of Interior should call Ken Hood at (916) 212-3108.

The family requests that all those wishing to send cards, letters, and flowers do so at either of the following locations;

Schicke Family c/o
CDF Arnold Station, Ebbetts Pass FPD Station 1
2517 Highway 4 1028 Manuel Road
Arnold, CA 95223 Arnold, CA 95223

Additionally, a Memorial Fund has been established at Merchants National Bank. Checks should be made payable to ‘CDF Firefighters Eva Schicke Memorial Fund’, and mailed to Merchants National Bank, P.O. Box 747, Sacramento, CA 95812.

RSVP lines will be operated from 8:00 AM to 5 PM PST. General public information can be obtained by calling the CDF Information Center at (209) 533-6981. Further details concerning the procession and funeral will follow.

Sincerely,
Fred McVay,
Unit Chief

Added them to the funny terms list. Ab.

Condolences and Reflections for
Eva Marie Schicke, 24, Firefighter
Arnold, CA

Here's the letter that came out from CDF Chief Geldert.

SoCal CDF

24-hr Brief on the Tuolumne Burnover
 

On behalf of all wildland firefighters, we are sending a bronze wildland
firefighter statue honoring Eva. If anyone would like to join the 52 Club
to help fund the statue, please do so. This process works via your
contributions.

Highest regards to firefighters working on the CA fires. Be safe.

Burk Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

52 Club

Michael Preasmeyer
President

www.fs.fed.us/r5/stanislaus/incident/tuolumne/index.htm

Mellie

I added it to the CA and US Fires, 2004 pages. Ab.

Evacuations are underway in Canyon City, San Diego Co., USA

Be Safe,
SoCal CDF.

Thanks everyone for the timely info. Ab.

Photo of the Columbia Helitack crew pdf file.

Photo of Eva Schicke

Ab.

Thnx Ab,
CDF mom

The CIS folks are meeting with firefighters now. The Accident Investigation
Team is in Sonora. The CDF briefing started at 1000. My heart is heavy, but
we carry on.

Tahoe Terrie

www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/fd_cls_f.gif

Please be safe everyone.

Todd

Modesto Bee
Firefighter dies in Sierra blaze

JC

CDF spokeswoman Sharon Torrence said the group was part of a seasonal,
Sonora, Calif.-based helicopter crew and had been dropped off in the forest
to fight the blaze from the ground.

So sad. So Cal CDF

Several firefighters have been injured battling the Tuolumne Fire Sunday afternoon.
Firefighters are battling the fire in a remote section of the Stanislaus National Forest,
about 11 miles east of Groveland.

Two firefighters have been burned and one firefighter was reported missing...

Hot List Forum contributor

Updates: Other information is being reported as it's released. Check for links to more recent articles at the end. Ab.

viejo

"Something I've been wondering for awhile that perhaps some of those who think the USFS & BLM have no business in the "all risk" area. Why is it that if I am injured or my car catches fire on a National Forest my health and safety isn't part of the mission, but if it happens in a National Park it is? Both have an engine, both are Series 0462's but only the Park Service includes putting out a fire in my cabin or car, and responding to my medical emergency in their job description." from Fedfire's post

The National Park Service has exclusive jurisdiction on many of the units they manage, including most of the older and larger parks. This means that their is no state authority for law enforcement, fire (wildland and structural), medical, search and rescue, fish and game, highways and roads, and a host of other functions too complicated to explain here. State and local agencies obviously respond at the request of the federal jurisdiction under mutual aid agreements. These exclusive jurisdictions were established by Congress in the enabling legislation for the Park, Monument, Historic Site, Lakeshore, etc. Exclusive jurisdictions include Yosemite, Sequoia-Kings, Lassen, and maybe some more in California. These are often called "Federal Islands" by people in natural resource and land management. The NPS assumes all risk responsibility because Congress gave them that responsibility. In other cases such as the 800 acre Devils Postpile National Monument, and in Death Valley National Park (formally a much smaller National Monument until 1994) Congress established a "concurrent" jurisdiction where the Park Service has jurisdiction over all risk incidents, but so do the state and local agencies. In some cases like Death Valley, California maintains CA State Highway 190 through the Park and has a CHP officer stationed at Cow Creek, the interagency work center and housing area near Furnace Creek. Inyo County also has a deputy stationed there. Furnace Creek ranch is private land owned by Xanterra Inc, the new version of Amfac, both of which used to be called Fred Harvey Enterprises, an outfit with concession permits in a number of National Parks. The deputy is there because of this private land and because the Shoshone Tribe owns land southwest of Furnace Creek ranch and do not have any tribal law enforcement.

Because the staffing of full time EMT and paramedic trained rangers in the Park's protection branch, the NPS provides EMS exclusively in most of the Park. They do most of the transports to the nearest medical facility as they have a couple of ambulances in the Park. They have a greater presence for law enforcement so they do much of the enforcing. Devils Postpile is more isolated from other Park units, is surrounded by National Forest land, so search and rescue and EMS services are provided by local authorities. They do have one commissioned officer and many of their resource rangers are EMT trained, so they take on a role in first responder most of the time. With concurrent jurisdictions the NPS and local authorities try to work out who will do what and when, depending on the resources of each, the history of who has provided services, and many other considerations. Often the NPS will take on a larger role than required because they feel that many resource management considerations can be affected by who does law enforcement and search and rescue, among other functions. In carrying out these function all risk functions in both exclusive and concurrent jurisdictions the NPS uses federal laws (United States Code) to cover everything from illegal campfires, to shoplifting, to murder. In the case of Death Valley they will respond to everything on the private land because all federal law enforcement officers have their POST certificate, or Peace Officer Standards and Training, the same that is required for all state and local law enforcement officers. In order to act as a state peace officer, the local county sheriff must approve that federal officers can act in this capacity. In almost all remote counties they have done this because they can have another set of personnel that can back up their own officers and serve on interagency response teams for large events and such.

The NPS is in the Interior department and it is used to having all risk personnel. The Forest Service is in the Dept. of Agriculture and if I remember correctly the USFS is the only land owning/managing agency in the department. They are not at all familiar with all risk and are even a little funny about owning land. Both the National Forests and BLM public lands are managed for multiple-use and are both under a third type of jurisdiction which is proprietary. That is they have jurisdiction over the use of the land for timber, range, watershed, recreation, and wildlife. By Congressional law state and local authority hold full civil powers over people and their activities, except where people and activities affect one of the five main multiple uses. Both have law enforcement officers who are trained in the same academy class at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center ("Flet-z") as the National Park Service rangers and U.S. Fish and Wildlife officers. From my perceptive the Forest Service, under the Department of Agriculture is constantly talking about what the agency should not do, not looking at what make sense on the ground. This includes fire, law enforcement, people control, special use permits, and every one of the thousands of tasks the agency has.

Now, look at all of this from the Region 5 perspective. There is the Forest Service and there is Region 5. It gets more recreation than any other region (25% of the USFS total with the other 8 regions getting the other 75%) in an atmosphere were people are used to having better governmental services than in any other western state, if not all the states. Much of this is because California has an atmosphere of necessity being greater, so it is a bigger "mother of invention" than other areas of the country. We have it all, mudslides, major wildland and structural fire (high rise, chemical plants, major seaports), law enforcements demands because of diversity and a high population and high growth rate, eastern like flooding on major rivers in the Central Valley and the landscape is more diverse for one state than any other, from the lowest point in the U.S. with the hottest weather in the world, to a major sea coast (with both developed and very remote areas) alpine mountains, volcanoes, coastal mountain ranges, and more wildland fuels not under Federal jurisdiction than any where else. The state has started many major programs as a result with the paramedic program starting in southern California, the first "Class I" fire departments, and ICS just to name three. California has the best state park agency and the best Office of Emergency Services in the U.S. With what occurs in the state, and how often, it better be able to make that claim. Region 5 has been a leader in many areas of National Forest management (especially in recreation, fire, and law enforcement) and being in the setting of California it has had to lead the way into many areas of work that the other regions will just shake their heads at and say "but they are doing things that aren't the Forest Service role". This was the reaction I got in a Region 4 recreation management meeting when a person reporting on what was being done in other areas of the country to manage off-highway vehicles, and a picture of a Forest Service Law Enforcement Officer, with full off highway motorcycles gear (a green and yellow suit with the letters USFS printed vertically down each leg of the suit, a large FS shield on his back, an FS green helmet with shields, and the bike boots to match), with a utility belt carrying handcuffs, pepper spray, a Glock (9 mm handgun), with the law enforcement standard badge in a protected holder on the belt. In this region-wide conference many were shocked and said that was the county sheriffs role. None of them knew the situation on the Angeles and that even with a very large county sheriff's office, the Sheriff declined to take on that role and had asked for more assistance in the form of law enforcement from the FS than probably anywhere in the country. They knew nothing about the situation in Little Rock Creek on the north portion of the Angeles when people used to illegally occupy Little Rock Creek canyon and keep everyone else out. The typical response was to get a CHP, LASO, and FS law enforcement team together to move up the canyon in mass and retake the canyon. Sometimes CHP and LASO did not have the resources to participate so the FS did it themselves. Canine units in the Forest Service? Unheard of for many, many years, in other parts of the country, but common practice for decades on the Angeles.

Lets get back to fire. Let's say a response was dispatched in Orange County in the 70's (pre CDF contract county days), CDF would move up and cover the county, then the FS (Cleveland) may move up and cover CDF or a Cleveland Engine would move down and cover a county station. All by mutual aid agreements. This move up also went the opposite direction (uphill towards the FS stations instead of downhill). FS engines were expected to have EMT' on board and one of those fold out ladders they were carrying at the time. It was required for the mutual aid/closest resource concept. FPTs with state fire marshal deputy appointments enforcing the CA Public Resource Code on private lands within and adjacent to the National Forest boundary. Meanwhile, in Region 3 at the time, the emergency or public services did not even have scanners in their mobile rigs or at dispatch and interagency was a word that people had to look up in a dictionary. I remember one day at home sick in Magdalena, New Mexico with the scanner going, hearing about a near another Ranger District on the Cibola National Forest near Grants. A fire was burning (just a single tree or group, started by lightning with precipitation containing the fire) southeast of Mt Taylor, where the Forest Service has jurisdiction, which meets a large land grant ranch, privately owned, which was the New Mexico State Forestry Division, which meets a portion of the Laguna or Acoma Pueblo (Southern Pueblos Agency), and that meets up with BLM, Albuquerque District all in a corner, almost like Four Corners where Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado meet. The fire was within 1/2 mile of this corner and it was unknown which jurisdiction it was on. My scanner had the frequencies for all four agencies in it and I listened in disbelief as all four agencies sent a response independent of what the other agencies were doing. No one, from engines, to crews, to dispatch were scanning like I was. The aggregate response was four helicopters, four crews, and eight engines. The Cibola had a fixed wing up that day and was sending it also, but being the Cibola is so spread out, it was some distance away. No mutual aid, no inter-agency preplanned response, dispatchers who were not even talking with each other, at least on initial attack. The year? Somewhere between 1978 and 1981 while I worked on the Magdalena RD, Cibola NF. Back in California the FIRESCOPE program was 6 to 9 years old.

Now look at CDF. In the Owens Valley, most of U.S. 395 is covered by fire districts. North of Bishop there are none. Two semi-large subdivisions without any fire protection (Mustang Mesa and Rovana), a long stretch of 395 not covered by a local fire district in Inyo County. All this with a CDF conservation camp located almost centrally in this area. Bishop Rural will respond to traffic accidents due to morale considerations as I don't thing a formal mutual aid agreement exists for them for this area, but CDF filling in due to this "vacuum" of local services, responds to everything. CDF has BAs on their engines, but they aren't going to go charging inside a house on Mustang Mesa with a BA and two guys hold a 2 1/2 and confine the fire to the kitchen when the house is full of smoke. The FS has an engine at the top of the Sherwin Grade in Mono County and will respond to vehicle fires on the whole grade, even into Inyo County some distance from NF land because of the closest resource concept.

Meanwhile back in law enforcement, the Forest Service pays for increased local law enforcement presence on NF lands through a bit of federal legislation called the "Sisk Act". On some NFs there are deputies who are in locations in remote areas of the NF and draw almost all of their funding from Sisk Act funds. The theory being, the NF attracts the visitors with outdoor recreations opportunities and developed destinations and need to help the local authorities, who have little or no control over that happening. If the NF brings the visitors they should provide or pay for the services they need when they come.

Now I've given you a lot of reading on jurisdiction and what I saw during my FS career in four states. In California patrol units and engines commonly get dispatched to medical aids in campgrounds and for TCs on roads and highways. The mutual aid, closest available resource, morale responsibility, and being a member of the fire services in California drive this participation. It happens more often in south ops than in north, but it keyed closely to what capabilities the local agencies have, how much visitor use there is, how frequent incidents occur, how remote the area is, what kind of roads and traffic levels there are, and if the Forest Service has stations away from the Ranger District office. Again necessity is the mother of invention.

All the while in many areas without fire districts the public sort of assumes that the nearest CDF or Forest Service station will provide protection for their structure. CDF, in over 140 agreements statewide provides local fire protection and local fire department services, or some portion of them, in small counties and more remote areas. They have people who will break down your front door and have Type I engines. So, like the NPS they have the all risk responsibility in some areas the agency works. So in other areas where they do not have the responsibility, agency inertia and morale, not legal, responsibility causes them to do more. The Forest Service and BLM is being drawn into this also, more as time passes. Look at I-40 between Barstow and Needles, the Mojave National Preserve engine, and sometimes the BLM engine both from the "Hole in the Rock Station" provide most of the first engine in response on those long and remote areas of the Interstate. The Forest Service and BLM have very close scrutiny from Congress on this situation, particularly from a couple of Congressional committees who know all of the above very well. They have provided strict guidelines and fiscal direction for the purchase of such things as AEDs and BAs. They are very conscious that both agencies, due to their resources location could become the cops and fireman for much of the remote areas in the west, and look at any issue on these matters as possible subtle increments in the road heading in this direction.

So that is why you will get better care in a car accident somewhere between Wawona and the Valley in Yosemite, than you will get somewhere on the Minarets/Baysore loop east of North Fork on the Sierra National Forest not very far away? Congress made it that way and is keeping it that way, and tells the people on the ground that it is a state and local responsibility to increase the level of care on that road. Tell that to an engine captain at Clearwater Station who responds to a report of cardiac arrest at Clover Meadows and it doesn't make much sense. I think Congress should recognize areas like this, the unlikelihood of local authorities having it pencil out to establish a fire/medical station in these remote areas, and give the FS the means, authority, and responsibility to do what is right, to a certain basic level, and make that consistent nationwide. After all the FS and BLM have spent money to get the visitor there and provide the attraction for them to come and along with that should come the responsibility to handle what results, whether that be in the form of local government funding assistance, or with equipping and training the FS and BLM to be full partners in the fire service. In some areas like here in Mono County, California, there is countywide paramedic coverage, and U.S. 395 is covered by fire districts, so the BLM and FS engines in the area only respond to vehicle fires that have a chance of getting into the wildland. The policy should be flexible to meet local characteristics.

And finally, this comes from a guy who has lived and worked in four states, not counting that California has been in two different periods. I've seen the state from the outside quite a bit and have seen the "anti-anything that comes from California bias", as well as the provincial California attitude. I do not own either attitude.

Retired Forester (R3, R4, R5 and in that order too!)

You are 100% right about AEDs on engines.. we need them. I have my own and carry it
on my engine. and yes have used it on a wildfire.. i now sell the aeds . Thay are a tool that
is needed and is a must.....i was also on a type six nps engine that had one on it. i also k
now of a few pvt engines that carry them.. They are a big cost but well worth it.

NCBRUSH6

Governor told to OK fire bills --

California's firefighters say they appreciate Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's vocal
support following the October fire siege. Now they'd like his autograph – on some
pending legislation sitting on his desk.

Gregory Alan Gross in the San Diego Union-Trib -- 9/11/04

northzone

(Steve Gage, good leader, CIIMT 3, Pentagon team (photos); Pentagon and World Trade Center happened 3 years ago today. Read Liz Covasso's report of responding to 9-11. She's a team member. They didn't know if there would be more coming.)

viejo

Does that mean our fed fire teams are the primary or the only organizational ICS
teams out there to operate on the really large scale or multiple catastrophic events?

If so, it's scary that no one is talking about where "fire" careers might take us.

Headin' for the Academy

Wilderness junkie is right…Cities are a hostile work environment. That said, why can’t we treat working in cities the same way we treat working on the fireline? Or in a confined space? Or a hazardous materials environment? LACES works across the board. It’s just a question of understanding the hazards and assimilating and new equivalent of the 10 and 18.

Todd made an excellent point (as did a few others) that what may be lacking is the mental preparation of on-call units to be all-risk.

Steve mentioned that he didn’t feel that ‘Shot crews were necessarily the appropriate units to call; I disagree. The great advantage of calling up a ‘Shot crew for any type of incident, even one they aren’t even remotely trained for, is the same that Pulaski mentioned for calling up IMTs…people management. ‘Shot crews come as a pre-fab team, with a hierarchy, hopefully with most of the interpersonal pissing matches ironed out, ready, willing, and able to function as a unit. You can make certain assumptions about the functionality of a ‘Shot crew that you can’t make about twenty random people pulled off the streets, or assembled out of various agencies and told to work as a team. A ‘Shot crew (theoretically) knows how to work as a team. Smoothes out the learning curve; all you have to get used to is the role of team in the task at hand, not the role of the individual within the team.

Okay, I’ve said enough.

Nerd on the Fireline

Thanks for the info. Somehow I always expected FEMA would be as big
as the FS and as capable. I'll respond to some other comments after work
today.

Tahoe Terrie

I'm off to the beach myself (while we still have one). Surf temp. is in the mid 70s
and 80% of the tourists are gone.

Startree

Does anyone have an old blue school helmet they can donate to an excellent cause?
I know we asked this once before and got one donated (thanks) to the memorial site Shane Hearth's dad was creating at the Monument in Boise. That turned out well.

We want this one to give to Shane's parents and sister on his birthday. Shane would have been 24 years old a week from Saturday (9/18). Birthdays are hard for families who have lost a loved one and this family could use a big hug from our community. Vicki Minor and I (on behalf of everyone) would like to give them flowers in an old blue school helmet to show them they're not alone.

I do hope someone has a helmet to donate. I'd pay postage, maybe next day or second day or whatever to get it to Vicki in Boise to present to them on Saturday. Do I remember there was another one last time? -- maybe in Judy Carvelho's garage, guess whose helmet Joe?-- Or if they've given that one away or Joe's using it again, maybe someone else has one?... And the someone with a helmet would mail it to Boise... and I'd pay shipping??? Would that someone trust me for the dough? (I could give you my banker's phone # if you need a reference. <looks in mirror> Yepr, that's an honest face.)

Ab, could you find that pic of Shane in the blue helmet he loved?

Thanks,
Mellie

PS. This is a surprise for the Heaths, but Vicki sees them often and it is appropriate. I'm told they are not reading theysaid right now, so please don't tell them...

SHANE

20 Largest California Wildland Fires (By Structures Destroyed)

FIRE NAME/          CAUSE           DATE    COUNTY         ACRES  STRUCT DEATH
1 TUNNEL          (REKINDLE)     Oct 1991   ALAMEDA         1,600  2,900   25
*2 CEDAR          (HUMAN)        Oct 2003   SAN DIEGO     273,246  2,820   15
*3 OLD            (HUMAN)        Oct 2003   SAN BERNARDINO 91,281  1,003    6
4 JONES           (UNDETERMINED) Oct 1999   SHASTA         26,200    954    1
5 PAINT           (ARSON)        Jun 1990   SANTA BARBARA   4,900    641    1
6 FOUNTAIN        (ARSON)        Aug 1992   SHASTA         63,960    636    0
7 CTY of BERKELEY (POWERLINES)   Sep 1923   ALAMEDA           130    584    0
8 BEL AIR         (UNDETERMINED) Nov 1961   LOS ANGELES     6,090    484    0
9 LAGUNA FIRE     (ARSON)        Oct 1993   ORANGE         14,437    441    0
*10 PARADISE      (HUMAN)        Oct 2003   SAN DIEGO      56,700    415    2
11 LAGUNA         (POWERLINES)   Sep 1970   SAN DIEGO     175,425    382    5
12 PANORAMA       (ARSON)        Nov 1980   SAN BERNARDINO 23,600    325    4
13 TOPANGA        (ARSON)        Nov 1993   LOS ANGELES    18,000    323    3
14 49ER           (BURN. DEBRIS) Sep 1988   NEVADA         33,700    312    0
*15 SIMI          (UNDER INVES.) Oct 2003   VENTURA       108,204    300    0 
16 SYCAMORE       (MISC. -KITE)  Jul 1977   SANTA BARBARA     805    234    0
17 CANYON         (VEHICLE)      Sep 1999   SHASTA          2,580    230    0
18 KANNAN         (ARSON)        Oct 1978   LOS ANGELES    25,385    224    0
19 KINNELOA       (CAMPFIRE)     Oct 1993   LOS ANGELES     5,485    196    1
*19 GRAND PRIX    (HUMAN)        Oct 2003   SAN BERNARDINO 69,894    136    0
20 OLD GULCH      (EQUIP.USE)    Aug 1992   CALAVERAS      17,386    170    0

Lookee when those fires burned. Ab.

From my perspective the advantage of using type 1 Fire IMT's in other non-fire emergencies is the experitse they provide in people management. IE: organizing and managing and supporting a huge group of people. This became very clear when a local IMT here was activated to organize and run tornado clean up several years ago. In my opinion, there is not any group or agency more prepared or experienced in doing this.

As far as shot crews go, the saw expertise would be very important and helpful, but other than that I dont see much of an advantage. ..and it would be a concern to me to have the majority of crews committed to non-fire incidents when so much of the west is still in fire season.

On FEMA footing the bill, from the tornado incident I was a part of, FEMA picked up a certain percent of the bill outright but at some point it was a matching type of thing with FEMA and the local government entities. I cant remember the exact details, but I do remember the thing that saved the local governmnet agencies was that they could count all the local volunteer help (at x dollars per hour) as part of their share as long as it was documented. Funny thing is that we had been toying with the idea of using a computer generated check-in system with our IMT (ie: writing the check-in info down on computer instead of hand writing it on paper). Luckily we did not do that, as if we didnt have the check-in documents hand written they would not have counted! ..I suppose FEMA is/was thinking it would be too easy to whip up bogus "volunteer labor" via computer.

Pulaski

Fire Boss at Air Tanker base

Fire Boss dropping

I couldn't believe it. Spain also uses the Campbell Prediction System to
determine the fire behavior potential on the ground, when it's safe and
not to fight fire. Their shift plans have maps that display fire behavior
predictions - trigger point, etc so strategy and tactics can be determined.

Wish we used that. Checklists, checklists, that's what we're saddled with.

AL

Thanks Pat. Readers, I'll pass on any messages. If anyone has contributions to Paul's Tribute Pages, send em in. Ab.

Also a very nice CDF AT drop on the Bear Fire on Airtankers 12 photo page.

Mark H, nice looking Wet and Red Water tender. Didja squirt anybody during the nozzle test? I put them on the Equipment 8 page.

There are more excellent action photos on Engines 11 and Engines 12 photo pages. Several are related to the fine Rx burning conditions in NV, the other shows an unusual engine "turnaround" in MT.

Also thanks to Willy-N for his photos of the SiSi Fire in WA. Some very fine images of cranes and vertol. I posted them on Helicopters 16. Good image of a bambi bucket that holds a man... Urban legend?

Thanks all. Ab.

Here's the message on the engine turning around in MT.

Hey Ab whats up, heres a picture of our engine on the
fish creek fire in montana in 2003. It was the only
place we were able to turn around.

biggins

Nice ones. See links in Ab's post above.

Thanks for the thanks, we caught up on photos as well.
Re the CHP site, Original Ab built that into the News page options on the left under "CA Highway Patrol". Good description of the fire quick search. I think the Original set the link to open to fire... or maybe I just have my system "trained". Ab.

Wilderness junkie fighting fire

www.adfirefighter.org

Thanks Hugh Carson and others for what you do.

CA AD

If you ever need to find this organization, check the Classifieds page under associations. Ab.

Slow Wildfire Season Tough on Private Firefighting Crews
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com

PS In all seriousness, I hope the Academy can provide info here every so
often. Training time approaches and we could all use a little (or a lot) of
educating.

More info on the "Runway Fire" in the Cajon pass between hwy.138 and Oak hills.
Fire is about 650 acres, evac. for 500 residents and was started by a traffic collision
N/B I-15 moving thru the center divider jumping to the S/B side thru Mormon rocks.
I believe the fire is on the Forest 40% contained.

FFA

Scott Whitmire

ps- I would have crawled on my belly through broken glass (naked) for an opportunity at a career job during my first 10 years of firefighting.

Thanks for the clarifications, Scott. Ab.

Long time lurker, first time writer! I just wanted to say that I received an assignment to go as a Community Liaison type (Info Officer) and had to turn back the order, because FEMA will not pay base pay to USDA or DOI. Unfortunately, the FS where I am stationed, doesn't have the luxury of spending project funding for FEMA causes. I was really bummed out because I thought it would be a good humanitarian type of thing to do and, since things are SO SLOW, it may be my last chance for an assignment this year. (haven't had an off-forest assignment yet). I have to wonder why they would pay ADs over agency employees. Probably cheaper over the long haul. I also echo others in my dismay about "staging" that many T1 teams in Atlanta for How long? About a week now? There is a nice use of taxpayers money! Are agencies covering that cost? Tisk, Tisk!

Firebrat62

Many of us that worked on the Columbia Mission Search last year should
remember that there were many AD crews working and for trainees, I had
a trainee working under me for most of my two weeks . There is very little
that can be signed off on the task book when your assignment is not a
wildland fire.

YS

It is the "Power of One" who can make a difference to our extended fire
community. Each one of us can make a difference to the families of injured
and fallen firefighters.

Thanks Dale and Harry, we think you are the two best-looking guys in
Washington DC.

Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

52 CLUB

The additional Bear Fire photos just came in from Andrew H. For newcomers, descriptions are available on the Descriptions page if you click the words under the photo. Andrew's descriptions follow.

Pyro Cumulus Day 2: This photo was taken the second day of the bear fire (8/12/04). That night the winds blew from the North and pushed the fire to the South destroying structures that were thought to be safe and out of danger.

Structures Threatened: This is a photo as the bear fire moved through the residential area of Jones Valley. The fire burnt 10,484 acres over a 4 day period. It destroyed 80 homes, and 30 outbuildings.

Homes in Trouble: Firefighters found themselves overwhelmed, and out numbered by the shear number of structures that were threatened or involved. Over 1,000 firefighters were called to duty to fight the fire by the next day.

Thanks contributors. Ab.

A typical downslope, backing fire. Great time for a containment line. Eagle
Rock fire, Okanlgan Highlands. WA DNR NE Region

J. Foster, Highlands 26

Hi there, we do have a nice community, don't we? Nice AT photo. I put "Skyship" on the AirTankers 12 photo page and the backing fire on Fire 23. Ab.

Attached is the GEOMAC thermal map of the Geysers fire.

J.Watt

Excellent idea. The image didn't come through, but this is a great way to view the fire. Go to Geomac http://geomac.usgs.gov/#

"Hot List Ab" cleared it. It was getting long and most incidents had been picked up or now appear on the Sit Report. People voted to have the newest incidents at the top and it needed clearing for that. We're back up and ready to go. Ab.

Mellie

Info for firescribe:

Victory.... The Fresno Country Board of Supervisors today approved to contribute 66% of the growth of the Prop 172 funding passed by the voters in 1993. CDF Firefighters state this victory is shared by not only our County Fire District but every District across the entire state. More to come on this subject.

Orange County Fire Authority needs to talk to Fresno County Fire to see how CDF employees made this happen.

Captain Emmett

What's to be done with SoCal sales tax revenue? (scroll down about halfway thru the news items).

Voters will decide whether firefighters get a share of Proposition 172 law enforcement funds now given to the Orange County Sheriff's Department.
www.sanluisobispo.com

PROGRAM EMPHASIS
IHCs can be used to meet management objectives other than their primary mission of wildland fire operations.

Utilization of IHCs shall be initiated with strict compliance to accepted interagency and agency specific safety standards, e.g., Fire Line Handbook. Responsibility for compliance with these standards and the safe operation of an IHC ultimately lies with the Crew Superintendent. The priority for the use of IHCs will be as follows:

1. WILDLAND FIRE OPERATIONS
IHCs are staffed, conditioned, equipped, and qualified to meet a variety of strategic and tactical wildland fire assignments. The overhead structure allows the IHCs to form into squads and perform independent assignments.

2. DISASTER INCIDENT ASSISTANCE
Within the limits of their experience and qualifications, IHCs are capable of providing a disciplined, self-contained, and adaptable workforce to meet the needs of incident managers in a variety of situations and emergency incidents.

3. RESOURCE MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVES
When not committed to fire assignments, IHCs can provide a workforce to accomplish a variety of resource management objectives while maintaining availability for incident mobilization.

Ab comment: Seems fitting to feature a photo of an Alaska fire, given that
this was the summer of fires in Alaska, all records were broken for acres
burned, and we seem to be following a new (officially unspoken) fire policy
of allowing fires to burn in areas whose ecosystems are shaped by fire --
and only herding the fire away from communities and other resources of
interest.

A small correction to your comment that may broaden many people's
knowledge. The policy is not new nor is it unwritten or officially
unspoken. The Alaska Interagency Wildland Fire Management Plan, Amended
October 1998, allows land mangers to designate four levels of response to
fires in Alaska. Lands are designated Critical, Full, Modified, or
Limited. In the Modified areas there is initial attack, but if it doesn't
succeed then the area is often treated as Limited and after mid-July most
of the Modified is rolled to Limited. The areas designated as Limited are
given site specific responses, whether it is protecting an allotment, a
permitted cabin, or a homesite. The majority of the land in the state is
designated as Limited. The appropriate response in Limited areas is
generally monitoring the fire. Even in Full areas once a fire escapes IA
the WFSA process allows us to just do site specific protection. The plan
explicitly mentions the role of fire in the ecosystem. The plan originated
in the late 70's and early 80's, with 13 planning areas. The first formal
plan was for the Tanana / Minchumina Planning area and had these four
levels of response and was completed in 1983, so parts of the state have
operated under this policy this for over 20 years. If you want to read the
plan it is available as an Adobe document on the AFS external website at
http://fire.ak.blm.gov/. Click on Fire Planning on the left side and you
can read the current plan, the TM plan, or the planning guidelines. This
is an interagency plan covering State, Federal, Native and private lands.

In an normal year we have somewhere around 1,000,000 acres burn, give or
take a few hundred thousand. This year set up to be above average by
mid-July, but then the August rains failed to appear, so fires continued to
burn actively. Aside from the above average acreage, several fires were
near communities which necessitated a larger or more expensive response
than normal.

Most of the fires in the Upper Yukon Zone have simply been monitored with a
little site specific action taken. Even the fires that we put teams on
were still site specific actions, something the teams had a difficult time
wrapping their heads around. I had one L48 T2 IC tell me that when we
gave him the map of the complex he thought it was not big deal, essentially
a district with a lightning bust. Then he realized that the squares on the
map were townships, not sections, and that we really only wanted his team
to concentrate on about three areas. Getting the plan across to incoming
resources, especially management teams, was one of the challenges of the
summer.

Things are finally winding down, but we still have crews, engines, and
helicopters out on fires and may keep them there until the snow flies.

Kent Slaughter
Upper Yukon Zone
BLM Alaska Fire Service

Glad things are winding down up there. Thanks, Kent, for the elaboration on AK policy. We all can learn something. Alaska is probably the most cutting edge on using the appropriate response to fire, given the piece of land burning and its management goals. R3 clearly makes that kind of discernment and as well. Other regions like R1 took much the same approach last season -- herding fire around as opposed to putting it out -- even though they may not have the policy in writing. (Can someone fill us in on written policy?) California was planning to allow more fire use fires where appropriate this season, until a letter came out. I don't know the thinking behind that... probably some good reasons relating to drought, deadwood, smoke, resources, etc. Maybe readers can let us know what written policies are in place for the regions other than Alaska? How do BLM policies differ from FS policies? Where does NIFC come down on all this?

In thinking about your comments, I realize what I meant by "officially unspoken", however relates not only to letting some areas burn as they've always done. It also gets into the creeping change that seems to be occurring in "wildland firefighting" from the ground level all the way on up to the IMT level without clear-cut interagency direction. Granted, the DOA USFS "caring for the land and serving people" still covers what firefighters do, but federal wildland firefighters -- at least FS firefighters -- do so much more than what is presented in their job descriptions. Fed firefighters also have the great potential to be called upon to respond to biological and radiological threat too -- an' this Ab ain't just talking chicken virus.

Is there a more specific FS FAM Mission? beyond the general FS Mission?

Seems we could use some discussion. We could also use some new and clear mission and vision statements from the WO-- and potentially some rewriting of position descriptions.

Had to go look up the DOI BLM mission:

"It is the mission of the Bureau of Land Management to sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations."

Anyone know the BLM FAM Mission if there is one?
Haw haw, thanks for the forum! Ab.

The storm is moving slower than anticipated. But if there's significant damage I'm sure
the Pres. will send his bro. help in a hurry.

Startree

13:00 Sept. 4, 04
Ordering up more dozers. Calling for local fire department strike teams.
Air tankers grounded due to smoke.
Sounds as if the fire is trying to run to the South.
Not as windy as yesterday.
Lots of ash falling at the house, kinda like snow.

Take care and be safe. Going to go water the yard and listen to the scanner.

Retired L.A.V.E.

"Sonoma County REDCOM just announced the Geysers Fire at 14,000 acres." Red flag conditions (strong North winds), heavy fuels, steep terrain, difficult access. Rapid ROS, heavy spotting. From the Hot List Forum page. Ab.

I worked with that Helitack crew on the Gila that season, I am on the Helena Hotshot crew, and we were assigned to R3 for 35 days. On the last leg of our tour there I had the pleasure of working that fine crew on the "Running Fire" and "Mountain Fire" a week before that day. I will always remember "Vinny" Vincent because he enlightened our day during that week we spent I.A.'ing , he showed me his family pics and was so proud!! I enjoyed talking to him and visiting while waiting for the ship to shuttle us to the Helitack center. I remember that he had a cell phone, pager and a radio on him and he told us that he was never out of touch with the world - Family, dispatch (Silver City). I never really caught his last name but he made my day when I was so ready for a mini vacation (day 30). I have met so many people on fires and various assignments throughout my 15 year career - but "Vinny" always sticks out the most of my "Fire Memories".

My thoughts and prayers go out to his family still today,

Helena Hotshot # 11

Thanks so much for your help! I still don't have the photo of the stove at French Henry, but I found many other great photographs. We really appreciate what all the firefighters did that summer. Thanks to their efforts, the 2002 season happened and 22,500 young men and women hiked all the trails of Philmont this past summer.

Linda Cummings, Philmont Staff, 2000-2004

Taylor Fire AK, 2004: This photo was sent in by AZ FF. It was taken by someone on the Northern Arizona Type II IMT which was on this Alaska fire.

Ab comment: Seems fitting to feature a photo of an Alaska fire, given that this was the summer of fires in Alaska, all records were broken for acres burned, and we seem to be following a new (officially unspoken) fire policy of allowing fires to burn in areas whose ecosystems are shaped by fire -- and only herding the fire away from communities and other resources of interest.

If anyone knows or can find out from the team who the photographer is, please let us know so we can give credit. If anyone has a story to share about this fire, please share that as well. What would be very interesting would be some comparative stats on acres burned in AK and the lower 48 in previous years compared with this year.

Here are a couple of pictures I took at the Cedar fire as it crossed the Lake
Cuyamuka Community. I hope you like them.

Jason Stevenson, Captain
Willow Oak Fire Prot. Dist
Woodland, CA

Cedar Fire 1
Cedar Fire 2

Thanks Jason. I added them to the Cedar Fire photo page. Ab.

C64,

I just got off the phone yesterday with him and said that his rehab is going
good.

It has been a frustrating time for him, but his spirits have been uplifted by
all the cards and letters sent to him from fellow firefighters.

He is a avid Washington Husky football fan, and said the athletic department
has agreed to move his season tickets to a wheelchair accessible site in Husky
stadium.

Again, he thanks all the support from the fire community and hopes to be on
the line for the start of the 2005 season.

r6r

Missoula , MT
Dedicated as National Wildland Firefighters Memorial, May 8, 1991
for more information's about this memorial contact Wayne Williams at
Smokejumper base in Missoula. He was driving force behind this memorial.
wwilliams@fs.fed.us

New Mexico, Gila NF
Guide fire on July 12, 1994 on the Mimbres Ranger District, Gila NF
Victims: Helitack Crew Member Samuel Smith, AD firefighter Anthony
Guiterrez and pilot of Bell 206L-3 Bob Boomer
For brief description of the aircraft accident report go the National
Transportation Safety Board web site
Two survivors: John Lopez and Charles Sanchez, both AD firefighters. One
of them sustained serious injury, one minor injury (not sure who/which)

please, no name

I've added them to the Memorial Sites page. Thanks, Ab.

take care,
ken hilder

Thanks Ken, I posted it with some other colorful patches and logos on the Logo 10 photo page. Thanks contributors. Ab.

Date: September 2, 2004

Potential National Wildland Engine and
National Type II Crew Offerors

RE: Mailing Lists

National Wildland Fire Engine and Type II Crew contracts will be re-solicited, and we
anticipate new National contracts to be negotiated and awarded by Jan McCluskey for
the 2005 fire season. Government acquisition procedures have been automated over
the last few years, and as a result Government Agencies no longer mail paper copies of
meeting notices, Pre-Solicitation Notices, contract solicitations, and other acquisition
documents to potential interested vendors.

At this time any existing mailing lists previously constructed by our office, are no longer
being maintained or used. Specifically the e-mail list our office had on file containing
some engine and crew vendor addresses has been dismantled. Therefore,
advertisements of meeting notices, solicitations, and other acquisition advertisements
are now being posted at http://www.fedbizopps.gov and it is the responsibility of
interested vendors to use this website to obtain acquisition information. Please consult
the Federal Business Opportunities website to obtain future acquisition information
regarding our National contracts. If you have any questions, please call me at (208)
387-5612.

Janet McCluskey
Contracting Officer

Here are some more photos, these are of the Manter Fire, 2000. The crew is my engine crew from the BLM South Fork Station. They were doing the firing operation at Kennedy Meadows. They were also on the IA. Both the fire photos are from Kennedy.

Thanks for a great site.
Dennis

Lots of firefighters. I added DIVS B to the Handcrews 15 page. Added the engine crew photo to the Engines 11 photo page. Put the fire photos on the bottom of the Manter Fire photo page. Ab.

Thanks again for all you(s) do. What would we do without this site. Honestly, I ask you all!

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Terrie. Wouldn't be half so interesting or informative without the community.

Readers,
Original Ab changed the WildWeb links on the map. Instead of going directly to fire incidents, they now go to the wildweb main pages. Several viewers suggested this as it makes it easier to check resource status and resource orders in addition to vegetation fires. The downside is that it takes many more clicks to access the newest vegetation fires info if that's your main interest. Could we have some behind the scenes feedback on preferences? We want this page to fill your needs and ours.

Another suggestion that we may implement is on the Hot List Forum: Several people have suggested putting the newest entries at the top so you don't have to scroll down to see breaking fires. This would be similar to the format here and the way most people set up their chat window. Again, could Hot List Forum readers send us a yes or no on newest at the top?

Thanks for everyone's help. Ab.

Here's the remarks from yesterday morning's 209 on Hurricane Frances. We're getting ready. ICS is in place. Maybe we'll see some of ya'll.

The Park's established Hurricane Incident Command Team (ICT) invoked a hurricane shutdown for Biscayne National Park at 1230 on Wednesday, September 1st. Shutdown is 95% complete as of 1600, 09/01/04. All employees, except the ICT, were released at 1530.

On Thursday 9-2, 18 employees (including the ICT) will report at 0700 to complete shutdown. The park's ICT anticipates complete closure of park facilities and release of all employees at 1200 on Thursday 9-2.

As established by the National Hurricane Center, the chances (strike probability) of the center of the hurricane passing in close proximity (within 65 nautical miles) is as follows: Greater Miami Area = 18% on 9-2 through 0800 on 9-4 West Palm Beach = 20% from 2000 on 9-2 through 0800 on 9-4 Marathon = 13% from 2000 on 9-2 through 0800 on 9-4

FL-firefighter

Don't eat poison oak, ivy or sumac! I knew a guy who did,
they had to give him a tracheotomy, his throat and mouth swelt up
so bad. He was lucky we were close to an ER.

It's not just in the smoke...
I got it once from breathing the dust. Someone ahead of us had dug
out the plants. We were finishing up to bare soil and putting up
quite a dust cloud. Next morning when some of us had eyes swollen
shut and looked like the Pillsbury dough boy we figured it out. Didn't
hurt or itch, just couldn't see. I think the skin cells were so outawack
they gave up on the itching.

That hippy guy, did he tell you it was fine to eat those orange cap
mushrooms that have the whitish spots on em? I was wondering if
he was the same guy that I talked to. I think he knew more ways to
kill himself than any other Joe I've met.

Skids

Union HS Belt Buckle Auction:
Thanks to Dan Fiorito and Original Ab for setting up the belt buckle auction for Matt, and to Tony Duprey and Doug Kastner for going for it. Matt isn't out of the woods. I'm sure continued good thoughts and prayers are welcome too.

Vicki, when you get the new Foundation website set up, let's create an auction page for it. There were lots of contributors who wanted to do more to help. It was beyond the Abs' time and energy to work on it with fire season upon us. Thanks in advance to Chuck of ChuckRoast Nomex Fleece Jackets for work on an auction page that can handle multiple items. We'll have to work on a Foundation version of that -- when the rains come. Ab.

Thanks Al, I posted them on the Cedar Fire, Fire 23 and on the Handcrews 14 photo pages. They include photos of the Laguna, Dalton and Idaho City IHCs. Ab.

Thanks. I put it on the AirTankers 12 photo page. Thanks also to Dave for the AT dropping on the small fire started by the Union Pacific Railroad near Auburn CA. Ab.

I put them on Handcrews 14 and Fire 23 photo pages. Anyone know what "kind" of hotshots the two crews are? They're not on the National list that I can find. Ab.

Snags within the White Mountain burn, Colville Forest. Photo 2004, fire 1988.

While instructing this wildland firefighter class field day I lucked out with the perfect example of unstable air. The students got the message.

WA DNRNE Region Highlands 20 Crew awaiting a briefing during a command transition from Rotor 341 Helitac on Coby Fire.

J. Foster, Highlands 26.

Thanks J. I put them on Helicopters 16, Fire 23, and Handcrews 14 photo pages. Ab.

Thanks,
Original Ab.