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American Stroke Association
American Heart Association

Thanks Chris. Ab.

www.fs.fed.us/fire/news_info/webcast.html for starters. Comments anyone? Ab.

How about a survey on wildland food caterers? Both CA and Federal? How about any improvements that could be made as to product or what you like to see in breakfast to lunches to dinners. You guys all work hard. What about a say in what you get. These caterers also work a lot of hours getting this prepared for you. They'd like your opinions too. There's always room for improvement all the way around on both sides of the coin. Want to take a stab at it?

DW

Someone said to me the other day that viewing courage in another inspired courage in their own life regardless of the self-perceptions of the person who had "acted courageously". I believe that to be true. We inspire each other. Inspirational stories should be shared. (And BackburnFS, thanks for the Proverb 27:2 quote. I had to look it up.)

Beigefoot reported what Walter did on 7/17 theysaid. Remember this?

"I have seen many brave and heroic things on this fire, but my crew has decided that Diamond Mountain IHC crew member Walter <no last names> can be on our crew any time. As Diamond Mountain was starting a burnout operation on the south side of Carson City, Walter saw a local homeless man sit up (after sleeping off his latest bottle) just as the crew was carrying fire up a road. Walter ran through the fire and literally picked him up onto his shoulder and RAN with him downhill to our ALS engine. Then he calmly went back to work. Walter, if you ever read this, my crew would like to buy you a cold one if you ever come back around here."

Thanks Beigefoot. Thanks Walter. And thanks to all in the wildland firefighting community who have inspired me.
Mellie

"can truly be recognized as a 'hero'; an individual who has exhibited an act or acts of bravery, valor and morality in putting the welfare of others ahead of personal risks or gains."

Ab.

How many CDF'ers does it take to check into a motel room?
134.
One CDF Motel Unit Leader to set it up.
One CDF FOBS to find the 2 hour away motel.
One CDF Union Rep to assure HBO for a good nights sleep.
One CDF Law Dawg to make sure the drunk Hotshots are gonna return to the ICP quiet so as not to disturb the HBO movie ending. Sshheezzz.
One CDF lobbyist to petition legislators for more rural motels for the purpose of improving fire protection.
One CDF Spokesperson to explain the statewide motel deal and how its great to help the almost local economy.
One CDF CCBS (Caffeine and Continental Breakfast Specialist) to ensure appropriate calories etc for the drive back to the fire.
One hundred and twenty seven CDF employees to respond in an oversensitive manner to the "They Said" web site using the standard "It's in our contract" defense and thereby expose a collective group guilt.

{And don't forget that one Fed Fire Fighter that requests the 1:45 am wake up calls just for grins.}

Next Question:
If CDF inmate fire fighters are also on portal to portal, how long before they get motel rooms? 'Cause fire fighter well being is important for every single human being on the fireline. Right?
Or perhaps we just care less about "cons", regardless of how strong their union isn't or how hard they could work.

Fuels Guy

I posted 4 new pictures of the Bear and French Fires from Meko9 on Fire 24 photo page. Another one of Meko's from the Antelope on Fire 25 photo page. Some new photos from Mike Evans of ATs and helos on the Waterfall Fire on Airtankers 14 and Helicopters 17. Thanks contributors.

If anyone has sent in emails lately that haven't been posted, they may have gotten hung up in our spam filter. I try to check all spam, but sometimes something new comes in as I'm cleaning up and I've already hit the delete button and out it all goes. (LCV, did you send one?) Even if your post is no longer applicable, please email Ab so I can "whitelist" your email addy so your post won't get trashed next time. Ab.

Former R4 Shot, this BG is CDF and just happens to have the same initials as the HS who sent in photos last month. I had forgotten that contribution or I would have added a middle initial or made the moniker "Another BG". Such confusion occasionally arises on an anonymous posting site. Thanks to both BGs. Ab hummin' "Stayin' alive, Stayin' alive, Ah, ah, ah, ah Stayin' alive..." must have a touch of Friday night fever...

Just a thought.

AZfirefighter

good bye
signed
jobless come nov13

ps over 400 hours overtime on the engine this year in so cal

We did have two CA firefighter deaths. Let's not forget Eva and Dan. I won't. Ab.

www.fs.fed.us/r6/ppm/fire_procurement.htm

Not sure that they will have the 2005 solicitation up yet, be keep
checking.

Hope that helps.

dispatcher

Here is the link to the 2004 Interagency Standards for Fire and Aviation
Operations. www.fire.blm.gov/Standards/redbook.htm. In Chapter 14,
page 14-8 is a chart showing crew standards for Type 1 thru Type 3 crews.
You'll notice there is no mention of Geographic Area or crew composition.
This was also in the 2003 version. I'm not positive, but I think the Type 3
crew classification was initiated in 2002.

R-8

I'm Ab, and I approve this message.

This is my first time writing, but I've been reading for years. I found the discussion on crews interesting. The types have changed so much in the last years that it was hard to understand how they're different. I think I know now. I like it that this kind of discussion happens here. I know lots more than I used to. Thanks. As far as the other topic mentioned, I am not interested in beer or dogs or even boots right now.

Can anyone tell me about the meeting for Engine and Tender owners/operators (Okanogan, WA)? I missed it cause I'm taking care of a sick relative. Heard those above FF2 are going to have to have more classes and taskbooks and they're going to make sure equipment is dispatched and the equipment/driver is no farther away than owners say it is, etc, etc. I'd like to know the details and what people think. I'm good for the training (did it with BIA), but some owners may now have to eat their vegetables before going to heaven. Is it true engines and tenders are going to have to have more equipment on them? What? Someone said there was going to be a point system and more points for how good your truck is and how well you perform; that's going to be linked to call list?

Anyone know details? or how I can get the details?
Anyone have any opinions?

Thanks in advance.

WA Willard

The Peanut Gallery

BackburnFS

Excellent flames. We posted it on the wildlandfire.com Home page and made it available on the Wallpaper page. I have it on my computer. Thanks BackburnFS. 

Also some new photos from Mike Evans on Airtankers 14, Helicopters 17, and Fire 24. Ab.

The main difference between the crews is "situational awareness."

Hot shot crew members are folks who have pursued this career with the intention of becoming intelligent, experienced, well trained professional firefighters. Inmate Crew members have probably signed on as a 2-for-1 candidate. (Meaning 2 days off their sentence for every 1 done in Camp). And these folks have not pursued a career in the fire service. The Fire Captain of the CDF Handcrew will provide hours of training to these inmates, both technical and manipulative lessons, and when it comes down to it, the training and experience which together align into this "situational awareness" is still loaded towards the hot shots. But as far as work production rate, quality and quantity of work are concerned, it is a push. The main difference again is the "situational awareness" of the personnel in the hook line behind you.

For some other issues that need clarification:

-CDF handcrews do "hotline". I guarantee it !
-CDF handcrews do know and use firing techniques. I guarantee it !
-Amazingly, CDF handcrews occasionally fight fire well off the road.
-Can CDF Crews get shuttled via copter? Yes, it is an annual skill test for the Captains and trained with at each camp. Or believe
this , we can hike !!
- And the cleared space also known as a "heli-spot" was probably cut by the helitack folks.

LET the animosity go and acknowledge both crews serve with pride.

CURRENT CDF CREW CAPTAIN

CDF Capt, I don't think there's a whole lot of animosity here. There is a lot of pride and that's good. Ab.

PS. Great work Abs, read the site daily, have not written in for a few years.

It seems to me that this all kind of ties back into the whole “dispatching the closest resource” argument. All type 1 crews are not created equal, all type 2 crews are not created equal. I’ve seen a good type 2 run circles around a lousy type 1. The Initial Attack guide and the fireline handbook lay out “ideal theoretical scenarios” for how each type of crew SHOULD operate, but we all know that’s not how it works. In my experience (admittedly limited), crews get most appropriately assigned when overhead knows the crews best. I think that’s best accomplished when local resources are given priority in local assignments. As far as the little Useless Florist Circus versus Dead Army “you doesn’t respeck us” quibble…bloody hell, folks, imagine how we vollies feel!

Now would somebody please tell me what the bleep is a Type 3 crew? We talk about type 1s, type 2s, and I saw type 3 on Bored Hotshot’s pdf (thanks for posting that, by the way, that was informative), and I’ve never heard any discussion about ‘em, never seen one on the line. Is that just a type 2 that couldn’t get enough experienced people?

Nerd on the Fireline

Trolling again Jake?? haw, haw. Ab.

NZ

Is it a done deal? Maybe someone reading here would like to buy a house in your location. Ab.

Statistics on the San Diego Region Fires, all 4 of which were burning on October 26, 2003:
The Cedar Fire burned a California record 273,246 acres and destroyed 2,232 homes;
The Paradise Fire burned 56,700 acres;
The Otay Fire burned 45,971 acres; and
The Roblar II Fire burned 8,592 acres.

The fires around LA were also burning one year ago today.
The Grand Prix Fire burned 59,448 acres.
The Old Fire burned 91,281 acres.
The Simi Fire burned 108,204 acres.
The Padua Fire burned 10,446 acres.
The Verdale Fire burned 8,680 acres.
The Piru Fire  burned 63,991 acres.
The Mountain Fire burned 10,331 acres.
The Happy Fire was contained on the 25th at 287 acres.

Did I miss any?

Remarkable time.
For more details and links, check the SoCal Fires 2003 page. For photos, check the Cedar Fire etc photo page and the Grand Prix/Old/Simi Fires photo page.

Ab.

Re the Type I handcrew thread...

Hand Crew Overhead qualifications

Type 1:

Superintendent: TFLD, ICT4; Asst Supt: STCR, ICT4; 3 Squad Bosses: CRWB(T), ICT5

Type 2IA: CRWB and 3 ICT5

Type 2: CRWB and 3 FFT1

Type 3: CRWB and 3 FFT1

Notes:

Interagency Hotshot Crews (IHC) are a Type I crew that exceeds the Type I standards as required by the National IHC Operations Guide (2001) in the following categories:

• Permanent Supervision with 7 career appointments (Superintendent, Assistant Superintendent, 3 Squad Bosses)
• IHCs work and train as a unit 40 hours per week
• IHCs are a national resource

Questions:

Where Do CDF Crews fit in With Qualifications?

Do Inmates have Qualifications other than FFT2?

Bored Hotshot

So......
check with your HR representative on the move, but I think the outfit now
offers you an option to "not take the offer" and opt instead for a $5M "do
it yourself" payment. Figure out what you can get selling the place
yourself, and use that $5M as a cushion to minimize the impact. Good
luck.

Old Fire Guy

Old FF

For chat acronyms, check here. Ab.

AL

Todd

There's a link to the website on the classifieds page. Here it is. IAWF. Ab.

BoredShot, take a look at the CA OES state fire "official" book - last time I saw it, it had a green cover (somewhere there is a cynical grin in that fact)

Me thinks "Jake" and some others need to temper their comments, especially bragging about CDF union perks! Much easier be well rested, fed, hydrated and hop on a rig for a ride to the end of the road!

AHEM! no way Feds are pulling out of R5 (take a look at a map) - no CDF crew can/will go where FED WFFs can/will go regardless of how they got to the fire (jumping, heli drops, trudging miles, etc.)

be safe y'all,
northzone

I might have jumped on the wrong people with my Tuesday morning quarterbacking;
I painted with a pretty broad brush. My bad. I have heard from others that most
firefighters did a good job under dangerous circumstances. You were in the middle
of it. What is your take on the report and the burnover situation? Lessons learned?

Tahoe Terrie

EngineSlug,

In the area I work in, USFS stuff will sometimes go to calls
that CDF would normally go to all in the name of Closest available resource.
Many times it does not make sense to us why a USFS Model 61 is responding to
a commercial structure fire, but according to the CAD system they are
closer. Now when it comes to USFS wildland fires, many times CDF sits while
USFS engines from 1-2 hours away are responding. The most amazing thing
about this is that the CDF and USFS dispatchers are in the same ECC, so why
is the concept of closest available resource not used by the USFS? I'm sure
all this ties into the portal-to-portal issue and federal fire budget, but
if they really wanted the fires to go out, closest available resource is the
only way to play.

Norcal CDF guy

Sorry Ab, but I gotta weigh in on this one...

Tahoe Terri, please do not take this as an attack, but were you there on the Waterfall? I was. I spent the first 2 days on IA structure protection in Carson City and the Lakeview area from a fire that was to say the least, impressive to those of us who were at close proximity to its power. I have just completed reading the report and I am reminded of another report that came out in 94, where, in my humble opinion, blame was placed on shoulders that did not deserve that burden. Yes, there were mistakes, more that I care to admit, but a lot of them were committed by people who are not being held accountable. So please, before you have a knee jerk reaction regarding the report, and think that all in Nevada who fight fire are backward-a$% buffoons and start lecturing to them that things are done wayyyyy better in SoCal, please talk to at least a general sampling of those who were there on the line. Then, if you still have the same opinion, I would be more than happy to talk to you via email, chat, or any other means of communications (no speaking swahili, mine is way to rusty to be of any use....)

ahhhh....now that this is done....I must adjourn to a wrestling match with a 5 year old hellion....

Stay Safe Everyone......
Signed....A concerned Nevada Firefighter

How can CDF give their crews Type 1 Status if they do not NWCG Standards. In my experience on CDF fires if they have hotline to build or a burnout to do they call for Fed Type 1 Crews (Rumsey Fire Oct. 2004). Yes there are a few CDF and LA County crews that are pretty good, but in my opinion it is a slap in the face to call of of the OJ's Type 1. This has always bothered me since I moved to R5.

I also have serious safety concerns working for DIVS on CDF fires, because of the lack of a task book system. Did they get the training or was someone needed to do the job. I have talked to several of them and the majority of the ones I have talked to said the quals just showed up one day. Maybe just an anomaly, but I don't know.

Okay enough for one day. But to me this is not really different from the contractors in R-6. But lets save that for another day.

Bored Hotshot

We've added a category to the Site Map to cover all the "Informative and Humorous Wildland Firefighter Pages" inspired by discussion and fun on theysaid. It includes IMWTK, Quotes to Live By, Funny Fire Terms & Nicknames, and Monument/Memorial pages. Those pages have been and still are available via the Links Page under Miscellaneous.

We've added to the Documents Worth Reading on the Archives Page and on the Site Map: a report Safety Protocol Review SoCal Fire Siege, 2003. This is an important document in our estimation as it addresses commander's intent vs. the growing number of "checklists" required to fight catastrophic fire on the interface.

We've retired CA Fires, 2004 and US Fires, 2004 from the top of the theysaid table. We'll bring them back if the season rekindles. Their permanent link is on the Links page under miscellaneous. To be ready for any new incident, you might want to register now for the Hot List Forum if you haven't done so already. We'll make an announcement on theysaid if new info comes in.

As fire season seems to have wound down, at least for now, we hope all are enjoying a relaxing time with family and friends.

The Abs.

No disrespect to the firefighters responding on 9-11, they would respond
differently now. They took some lessons from interagency incident mgmt
expertise. Maybe NV should do the same.

NV and Sierra Front fed fire managers, Southern California fights lots of
interface fires. It was the home of ICS. Talk to those folks about how to manage
the media, rogue firefighters, "volunteering" resources, and jurisdictional politics.
All I have to say is that we were pretty dam* lucky no-one died on this incident.

Tahoe Terrie

bleedin' green

Also heard that retired firefighters that might get hired on AD go to one of
the little city FDs <name snipped, south of San Luis Obispo>. They sign up temp
and make 50 bucks an hour instead of 20 bucks AD and the little FD gets 15%
over that. Sounds like a sweet deal for all but the taxpayer.

Dave

On a "portal to portal" pay arrangement, you're paid from the time you leave home until the time you return home. You're on the clock 24 hours. There was a discussion last spring among Lobotomy and others, Im guessing, on how the rates worked - regular pay and OT - and how the new system would compare to the old.

With portal to portal, gone is the mandatory and varied and time consuming timekeeping, with often bogus lunch half hour, and the pressure for maximum OT. If youve worked on fire you know safety can be compromised when the maximum OT firefighters want bumps up against the mandatory 2:1 work/rest ratio. Portal to portal also means alcohol consumption or lack thereof can be dictated. You're "on the clock" when you leave your home unit and not "off the clock" until you get home.

One reason local and state firefighters in CA cost SO much on federally managed suppression fires is that they are paid portal to portal. And their base pay is so much higher than fed base pay to begin with - whatever their local market will bear, I guess. Or maybe it's fair given their cost of living. The sad part is that federal fire management at the highest levels don't question this cost when the bill comes from others. They have long stood in the way of federal portal to portal pay while willingly paying for anyone else to have it.

NorCal Tom

PS ab, couldn't find the post.

Duty, Respect, Integrity

The Forest Service has contracted for some helicopters
qualified for night flying. They are available for medivacs.

KJ

I posted two new fire column pictures of the Fred Fire on Fire 24 photo page. With Lake Tahoe in the foreground, they are quite artistic. Nice ones, Doug. Ab.

Proud Hotshot, thanks for your input. I appreciate getting good info
and I don't mind others taking me to task when they think I'm off base.
(Well, maybe there are a few I have told to stuff it.)

Again, I really appreciate your contribution, TC.

Mellie

TC, I saved your post. The drinking question comes up fairly routinely on theysaid and your statement is clear. Ab.

The great debate continues on this forum, no not Kerry vs Bush, but even bigger, the Fed’s vs Big Red Machine. I read the forum often, but don’t post much, but I feel that I would like to comment on all of the expertise that has been thrown around here lately. So. . . here it goes.

First off, the issue of the feds heli-mopping with Type I ships in the interface. I don’t agree with it most of the time, as the cost and the exposure is absurd. I’m certainly glad that I have never used a type I ship to heli-mop on a CDF fire. . .? Mark III’s are a little tough to operate, but obviously the problem was that the fed trying to operate it was drunk and the folks working at the cache who packed it were also drunk. I saw it all the time when I was visited a cache one season, damn young kids. Maybe check the bill for a few of the CDF fires this year. How about the Straylor and the Gaviota and on and on (yes, I know it has been discussed). Holy crap. Also saw lots of federal folks sleeping on the ground at all the CDF fires this year, then working the same 24-hour shift as those who had swam a few laps the previous night. Lot of stretching goes on trying to justify the motel issue and the 24 hour shift. I just don’t buy it. I wish I could say that I never had to wake-up the engine folks at 1:00 a.m. to get some water for a bladder bag during these beloved 24 hour shifts. But not always.

Ok, the drinking thing by hotshot crews. Mellie, Bruce, et al., you are certainly entitled to your opinions and this is a good place to voice them, just know that there is fine line between fact and opinion. Mellie, I can say a lot drinking went on at Big Bar. After doing 25+ shifts on a very demanding fire, everyone deserves to blow-off some steam. Bruce you spent one season on a crew, by no means does that make you an expert on hotshot crews and their professionalism. To say things like “. . . just a bunch of kids. . .” is out-of-line. With all you’ve been preaching on this forum lately, I’m a bit surprised. The hotshot community is a pretty tight-knit bunch and I would gander a guess that there is certainly another side to your great stories about drunkenness and inappropriate, unprofessional behavior. I wouldn’t be surprised to see your comment, “The behavior was definitely not a secret. Some Supes were known to attend occasionally. And a Squad Boss or two of ours regularly joined in.”, to show up circulating through the emails of these “unprofessional” supts, along with a chuckle.

Alas, there are certainly a lot of issues on both sides that need improving. A lot of good people on both sides and also a lot of “baggage” on both sides. At least Kerry/Bush debates had a moderator. Thanks mysterious AB for allowing this forum, please don’t “edit” my post too much. You can sign me as:

a Proud Hotshot who has been known to secretly drink a couple after shift

Didn't even correct the spelling. <haw><haw> No misspellings to correct. Ab.

Factor in job security with CDF. Some cities are downsizing. In one city I know of in nor-cali,
all the firefighters including management are taking a 5% cut in pay and the dept's not able to
buy needed ppe.

Even though they're hiring now, there may be belt tightening in your city in the near future.

AL

We've just had Doug Campbell here teaching the Wildland Fire Signature Prediction Method. Excellent training. This should be required for all wildland firefighters in addition to S-130, 190. There's not enough on-the-ground fire behavior taught, we have a real interagency mix, lots of older generation are going or gone, lots of inexperience coming on.

Doug's website doesn't do the method justice. Powerpoint presentation, demonstration, major points in the logic, maps, solid terrain models of fatality incidents, and solving a situation. It was eye-opening. I don't know why we shy away from such rich training. Do politics stand in the way... or inertia? It took a very scary fire to wake us up. Before that it seems we were just doing what we always did in the fire behavior area... a whole lot of nothing.

Sierra Front FF

There are lots of new Mike Evans photos of the Waterfall Fire on Fire 24, Helicopters 17, and Airtankers13. Here's Doug Campbell's website. It's listed on the Links page under training, I understand someone from the FS in R5 teaches his class too at least in some places. Anyone know more? Doug or other trainers, could you let us know what's up? Ab.

Due to nasty weather, the Park memorial scheduled for this Saturday 10/23 has been moved to Kelly's Beach in Reedley. Please arrive around noon -- the event will begin at 1300. (More info available on the website)

Page In Memory of Dan Holmes with tributes, photos of Dan with friends, online news articles that have photos of the Rochester NH service. Scroll to the bottom.

Mellie

"Unprofessional". I did not label "our Fed crews" unprofessional. In the case I described involving the Shot crew I was on, I stated "these guys and gals didn't have a sense of professionalism - that is, they didn't perceive that their off-duty behavior could be an issue relating to their on-duty behavior or abilities". In my view a "professional" understands thoroughly the requirements of their position, both physical and otherwise, and strives to meet or exceed those requirements when and wherever they can. One of the major requirements for wildland fire control people is physical fitness and the ability to "be alert, keep calm, think clearly, and act decisively." In my humble opinion, based on many years of experience, first hand and otherwise, a person experiencing a hang-over is not at their optimum level of physical fitness, and may likely be unable to think clearly or act decisively. That was the case with several of the young people on the crew, repeatedly throughout the season.

People with a clear understanding of what it means to be a professional would not get drunk and stay out 'till closing time while wearing their crew logo T-shirt, knowing they had an assignment the following morning at O-dark thirty. Instead I believe a true professional's focus would be on preparing for the next days shift via a good meal, plenty of sleep and equipment rehab as needed. Some of my crewmates obviously did not understand, as I stated, that their late night antics can, and did in fact hinder their abilities the following day. In the case described a handful of individuals who routinely went drinking were regularly affected the following day in terms of their production. Who knows what effect their partying had on our crew reputation among the community locals who witnessed them drunk in public in their logo gear. I don't recall any specific instances of fireline safety being compromised, but in my opinion the potential for safety challenges was high considering their physical states. And to clarify ... I did not "sit here and state that the Fed agencies lack professionalism because their people drink on fires". I related my experience with a handful of Fed employees on a single crew and the actions of several others from other crews that I witnessed or heard first hand accounts of. PYG, you seem a little overly sensitive and more than willing to paint with an agency-wide brush.

Former R4 says "Drinking beer after hours did not make myself or my crew unprofessional. It did however give us a chance to socialize and cut loose with rank set aside. Spending time together outside of work is very important for crew cohesion; it does not make you a drunkard". I agree, but with some reservations. I'm gonna go out on a short limb here and surmise that Former R4 and mates were capable of exercising good judgment while out tossing back a couple after a shift ... that they maintained respectable hours ... that they didn't disturb their sleeping crewmates upon their return to camp ... that they didn't get drunk ... that they took care of crew business before going out ... that they didn't suffer wicked hangovers the next morning ... and that their ability to function physically and mentally during the following shift was unimpaired. If all that's true, then good for them. Nothing like a little social time to relax after a hard day. They obviously understand and respect their positions and the nature of their job. My reservations have to do with my personal experience. I've spent a whole lotta years being on duty 24 hours a day when assigned to fires; a whole lotta years being "in the public eye" 24 hours a day; a whole lotta years trying to earn and maintain a reputation as a "professional" 24 hours a day (thank you portal-to-portal). So for me, the concept that the evenings between fireline shifts are "after hours" or "outside of work" is foreign, though I know that is how the Fed agencies officially designate that time. And so the idea of drinking between fireline shifts doesn't sit well personally or professionally (but I sure love a good Porter at home on a miserable rainy day like today). And since my agency is organized such that drinking between shifts is not an option for me/us, I don't have to make that choice on a nightly basis.

Also PYG, I do indeed "remember all the hard and good work that Shot crews do", as I walked that walk myself, albeit briefly, and I've seen it over and over in my 20 some-odd years on the fire line as a Fire Fighter, Fire Apparatus Engineer, Initial Attack I.C., Engine Capt., Inmate Crew Capt., Helitack Crew Capt., Div. Supe., Crew Task Force Leader, Field Observer, Situation Unit Leader, Handcrew Technical Specialist, Initial Attack Operations Officer etc etc etc. In those roles I've had the pleasure to meet and work with some highly qualified, productive and professional USFS individuals and crews ... most of the Hotshot variety. Which is part of the reason I left a 20 year career and joined up with a Shot crew. But, as in any endeavor, there are always exceptions. As far as drinking being the norm ... in my experience, which is what I was describing, drinking to excess was in fact "the norm" among some people on several of the Region 1 Shot crews during the summer of 2001. And impaired production and poor performance the morning after was also "the norm" amongst the people I was describing. Though I try not to use the broad agency-wide brush you did in interpreting my words, I was led to believe by what I saw and heard that drinking to excess is/was a large part of the Hotshot "culture". I can't say, nor did I, that it is a norm throughout the program. I really hope it isn't because from my first day on a fireline I have always had a great deal of respect for the Hotshots. That is why my 2001 experience was a disappointment in many ways - my idealized image of the Shots was busted by those individuals on my crew and several others from other crews.

And regarding CDF folks ... you are correct PYG. I can not assure you that my "fellow CDF fire fighters never drink in their hotel rooms or when they are on project fires". I never made that assertion. But I can assure you that since CDF began portal-to-portal many years ago, the incidence of "unprofessional" and/or inappropriate behavior by CDF employees assigned to project fires has dropped to a tiny fraction of what it may have been prior to portal-to-portal. But none-the-less, in CDF, in the Federal agencies and throughout the entirety of the US workforce, there are individuals who can't or won't follow the rules or exercise good judgment. I am sure there are some individuals in CDF who violate agency rules. I can assure you that I have not witnessed or participated in any on-duty drinking in 25 years. (Ask me about the summer of 1978 sometime, my first season and a different era in CDF). But that is only my experience. And regarding "CDF crews in bars during fires". I'm sure you've seen some of us in bars. But seeing CDF people in uniform in a bar (I assume those you saw near Reno were in uniform or other logo'd gear, otherwise how would you know they were CDF folks?) does not automatically mean they are drinking or drunk. I've eaten dinner in motel bars several times over the years, while on an Overhead assignment, because that's where the Giants game was on the TV. But I never drank alcohol. And I would never wear my uniform into a bar, because the locals see only a CDF uniform in a bar, not what's in the glass, and that's bad PR. Though I can only speak from personal experience, human nature and demographics lead me to understand that out of 3,000 some-odd CDF employees there is likely to be some individuals who can't help themselves and feel they have to drink, or otherwise behave unprofessionally, on duty. Maybe those CDF folks you saw were drinking. If so it only makes them, not all CDF'ers, irresponsible, and unprofessional. Like the kids I talked about from the Shot crew/s ... they, not all Federal Fire Fighters, proved themselves to be unprofessional.

Whether Federal Fire Fighters ever get to enjoy the perks and responsibilities of portal-to-portal or not (careful what you wish for), there will always be individuals who can't handle themselves in a professional manner i.e. they will engage in activities, on duty and off, that will impair their ability to function as needed on the fire line at the level demanded by the nature of wildland fire control. Like the kids I talked about from the summer of '01. It's human nature in some. And it's unfortunate for them, their crew/s and their agencies who all tend to suffer a degradation of their reputations as a result.

Jeez ... was that long enough?. Does that help clarify what I'm referring to when I say "unprofessional"? I hope so. Thanks for reading and responding.

Never Forget; Never Again!
Bruce

• Drinking in Fire Camp is not allowed, either on or off Duty.
• Being under the influence of alcohol (Drunk) in a Fire Camp is also not
  allowed either on or off duty. So Crews or individuals returning to Fire
  camp after partaking may be subject to this.
• Motels paid for by the government, whether on per diem or pcms card, are an
  extension of the fire camp.
• Supervisor’s & Camp Security have been trained (or should be) to recognize
  the symptoms of someone under the influence. While this may not be enough
  to stand up in court, it is enough to require further testing, send someone
  home, or reassign them to other duties.

The socializing / crew cohesion part of this is important, however it
should take place on home unit, after hours, and off base, keeping in mind
you need to be fit for duty your next work shift (and not hung over).
Also, if a Fire call comes during one of these crew drinking events, you
would be unfit for duty and should turn the assignment down, or be subject
to an adverse action.

Whether or not you agree with any of the above is not important. What is
important is a number of both Type 1 and 2 IC’s, as well as Human Resource
Specialists, have and will continue to take action in these situations.

TC

Out of curiosity, I checked to see how hard it would be to create a Series 0401 page and how relevant it would be for wildland firefighters. The process was very cumbersome. The results leave a lot to be desired since many non-fire positions are represented in spite of doing everything I could to exc