Please email Ab so we know yer addy. We have some emails with info to forward on to you, except we deleted ya. Ab.

Here are two: WFF list of the fallen.

Casey's post may have the flavor of union militancy, on reread, I see it is a bit militant, but only because it's provoked by the R5 Forester. His posturing and threats at the National fire managers meeting last month ---to shut down the FWFSA--- treads on our freedom of speech. We are an association following all the rules. If he wants a fight, he'll have one.

I appreciate the work that FWFSA leaders do for all of us. I hope more federal firefighters will join up. We'll see who shuts who down if a line is drawn in the sand by the forester. We have a right to free speech! Ab, I hope you post this. I know there was discussion and you all agreed to hang on to some earlier posts on this issue.

NorCal Tom

We support FREEDOM of SPEECH 100%. Ab.

SR

Thanks, I added them to the Equipment 8 photo page. Ab.

J.W.

Nice logo, Dan. I have added that one and logos from the Morning Star IHC and the Hamilton Canada Fire Department to the Logo 10 photo page. Thanks contributors. Ab.

New York Wildfire Academy
www.dec.state.ny.us/website/reg1/2004acadcourses.html 

Info_Gatherer 

Permanent link for Blackbull on the Classifieds page. Ab.

S' ok, I didn't. Ab.

Casey,

Wow!  You must be having a bad day.  Your diatribe is far removed from the reasoned arguments we usually see you post.  Yet, since it is posted, it merits response.

First, no one need question your devotion to promoting the welfare of all wildland firefighters.   That said, I will take you to task for inflammatory statements regarding the concern of our FS leadership for firefighters.  Here are a couple of points we may agree to disagree on:

1. Any experienced lobbyist knows full well that the funds an agency requests is the sum agreed to by the current administration (Republican or Democrat). 

2.  “…the FS was derided by members of Congress….”   Again, the Congressional members of the loyal opposition always take to task the administration’s position.  There is nothing new here, and again you know that.

It appears to me that you are blaming the failure of PTP on everyone but the authors and promoters of the legislation.  Perhaps if it had been better written, or supported by better documentation than the assertion that contractors or cooperators make $100,000 yearly in overtime……

One might conclude that your latest note indicates a lack of understanding of how political posturing is used to promote an agenda.  Or…..they might conclude that it indicates that you clearly do understand such posturing.

Old Fire Guy

I know some of you former dyed in the wool public servants will balk at this, but it's the cost of doing business where we are.

Reel

Here are some highlights (or lowlights):

Of 25 positions:

--22 of the 25 positions have reduced rates.
--The reductions ranged from $0.52 to $9.24 an hour.
--The changes in the 3 positions that increased ranged from $0.16 to $1.84 per hour.
--The average change of the 25 positions was a reduction of $2.96 per hour.

The draft 2005 AD Pay Plan is out for "comment" right now, but the cover letter says: "Comments should be limited to issues that might prevent implementation or use of the pay plan." It sounds like they consider the pay rates to be etched in stone.

The 2003/2004 rates were already very much too low. Now, instead of improving them, there's an almost across the board reduction--as much as $9.24 an hour in one case.

What can we do? We can write our congressmen, and also support the AD Firefighter association.
www.adfirefighter.org/pages/1/index.htm

Jackson

The AD Firefighter Association has a permanent link on the Classifieds page if you want to find it easily later.
There's a "Practical" link to your Senate and House Representatives on the Links page under federal. Ab.

It is Ab's opinion that wildland firefighters will not have to bid on their jobs. Right now there is so much going on with the consolidation of financial services -- moving everyone financial who knows the interagency MOUs and the liaison folks behind them to Albuquerque, NM. Fed hands will be full for some time dealing with the outfall from that. We all know what happens when communications break down on a major-rager, and it ain't pretty.

Squirrel

Todd

<haw, haw> yep, and we're working on the recipe. It's an elusive dish but we try every year. Ab.

Rich Hawkins was also awarded a Regional Heroism Award from the Regional Forester.

Just another Cedar Fire person

Ab did post the info to the Awards page.

DS

Our best to you and your family. Ab.

Firefighter accused of setting 3 wildfires
Blazes in summer were on Los Padres National Forest lands where he lived

• What is the delivery system? If, like a lot of small systems, everything is delivered in 2" pipe then quantity may not make any difference as you can't pump it.
• If the pipes are good what is the maximum flow rate of the engines from the nearest fire house? Divide their maximum flow rate by the gallons of storage and if they were to be pumping flat out is that a long enough time to handle the problem?
• Are there adequate connection points for the FD to tie on to?
• What is the recharge rate of the tank?
• How is it refilled and if by pumps, how well is the power supply to the pumps protected? There are formulas out there to calculate the required flow rates for a given structure that will give them a good answer to the structural side of the question. The local FD should be able to give them some answers on that side.

They need to look at both sides of the fire picture, wildland and structural and then think about dealing with both of them at the same time. If everyone is not doing their firewise activities, they will be. Remember fire spreads into the wildland as well as into the structures. Think about a house fire in the middle of fire season with the wind blowing.

Been There

TC

It's on my "to read" list. Ab.

A nephew asked yesterday what I thought was most important
for succeeding in life. I think it's having the ability and wearwithall
to solve problems and the bulldogishness to keep with it.

For thems thats on r&r, have fun, for all others, be safe and as
wheel said, stay engaged.

Tahoe Terrie

The Abs wish all a

Very Happy Thanksgiving.

We have much to be thankful for:
for family of all sorts -- nuclear, extended and fire;
for friends we play with and friends who watch our backs,
friends who teach us, and friends who give us a hug when we need it;
for this country, as omnibus and dysfunctional as our budget process is, the democratic (republican) process still assures peaceful succession from leader to leader;
for our health, and
of course,
for this wildland firefighting community;
as well for FWFSA and
for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
who work on our behalf.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the fallen and for those struggling with illness or injury. Don't loose heart, extended family. When you need help, ask. You're entitled.

As we give thanks, please remember our military brothers and sisters wherever they serve. When their job is done, may they all come home safely and in one piece to their loved ones.

Thanks for the personal email good wishes behind the scenes.

Oh yeah, and here's to our favorite thanksgiving veggie -- swirled peas -- May we have some soon.

The Abs.

Thanks for your and FWFSA's efforts. Getting any of this done takes persistence. Carry on. We will prevail. Ab.

Someone called and said other IHCs received commendations as well, like the Plumas Shots. Firewolf, what did their citation say? If anyone knows of awards, we're happy to enter them on the Awards page. CedarDIVS and others who fought those fires, good work. What a neckhair-raising time. Ab.

Mellie

I understand you had a large fire there in 2002. How much water storage did you have? How much did you use? Was it all from the fire hydrants?

We live in a private community with our own well and tank and cannot agree as to how much water we should have in storage. Some are saying the 50,000 gallons we have is enough; some of us feel that 200,000 gallons makes more sense. We are 6 to 8 minutes from the closest fire house and there is wild vegetation and oak trees. I cannot imagine a fire fighter saying "dam*, I have too much water?"

Thank you

Dick Kahler
Sonoma, CA

How big is the community? What is surrounding vegetation density like? Thick with ladder fuels? Does everyone have defensible space, fire-retardant roofs and siding, etc, as recommended by Firewise? What about ingress and egress? Labeling on mailboxes? Readers, anyone know volume recommendations for communities of various sizes? Ab.

Matt's condition is pretty much as
it was when I last sent out an update. He had decided to go to Houston to
the Burzynski Clinic to get an experimental treatment has shown good
success with brain tumors. Thanks to all of you, your generosity,
prayers, kindness has made it possible to pay for most of the initial cost
of the $18,000. treatment. Matt and this mother will fly down to Houston,
due to the work and efforts of Vicki Minor and the Wildland Fire Fighter
Foundation, on Nov 29. They will stay there for 3 weeks, while Matt gets
the initial treatment and gets familiar with the routine of getting it.

They will return after three weeks and continue to receive the treatment.
Since it is an experimental treatment, Matt's insurance may not pick up the
additional costs for the treatment until they see if it will be effective.
The monthly cost of the treatment, after his return will be between
$6000-7000. Matt and his family will take things one step at a time. His
attitude is very positive and he will keep fighting. Please remember him
and others in similar predicaments in your prayers.

Thank you all so very much.

Lance.

Good news Lance. Thanks to all involved including the Wildland Fighter Foundation.
Ab.

I've gotten caught up with posting photo submissions. There are new photos up on Fire 25, a very nice one of the Zulu column and several of a night training brushfire at Ft Lewis. Thanks to Eddie and Ric.

There are also photo additions to Equipment 8 and AirTankers 14 (SEATS and "spotter planes"), compliments of Ric and Mike.

There's a colorful new logo of Ontario Aviation and Forest Fire Management from Bob on Logos 10. Always good to hear from the northland.

Thanks contributors.
Ab.

Thank you.
sean

NWSA link with contact info is on the Classifieds page. Ab.

JG

Good job on raising $$ for Matt's treatment. Thanks Ab and WFF.

I have heard that some folks in R5 are working on getting the word out to various associations, organizations, crews, and teams about the 52 Club as well. The more the better.

A little heads up: Original Ab is working on a Fire Calendar and suggested a dollar from each sale should go to the Foundation. I agree. We'll keep you posted.

One thing that all members of the 52 Club could do to help is to add a note to the bottom of your emails that says: "Member XX of the 52 Club, Wildland Firefighter Foundation." I think one member of NorCal II did that first, but I have seen some other emails with that on the bottom. (You can do that in your email system so it's added as a footer to all emails.) Visibility helps create an organization that is sustained by contributions as a safety net for all.

Firefighters, invite Vicki or Burk to visit your event or training this winter to answer questions about what the Wildland Firefighter Foundation is and what it does. Kick in some travel money. They really are our "funnel" to help our fire family and our extended family. The "power of one" can make a difference.

Vicki, Thanks for all you, Burk and Melissa do! Thanks Community. I'm proud of you all. Ab.

MH

<haw, haw> Right.

Mellie has been researching cancer treatments and clinical trials for several people in the fire community. See her post on Familysaid.

Ab.

AZ backburn

I added that link and Mellie's 11/5 post on the legal process associated with the Cramer fatalities to our Documents Worth Reading page. Ab.

Readers, you can go read it if you like, I'm fairly certain the person has never fought fire and is simply trying to give wildland firefighters a bad name. Drivel... sure wouldn't waste any emotion on it. Happy Thanksgiving yerself, Mike! Ab.

SC

It's sunny where I am, a touch of frost overnight, woodstove crackling merrily. I hope all you Westerners are able to wind down from the season or that you've already made the transition, and that all you easterners "be safe" as your deciduous woods burn. Watch for falling snags. Santa Anas when they come in socal, we know they shout watchout.

For those lucky enough to be with family, hug 'em hard, let 'em know you love 'em. Count your many blessings.
For those going thru trials and tribulations, know that you're part of this community and we support each other. You're not alone.

The support and information that is passed behind the scenes here never ceases to amaze me. At this time of the year, what actually gets posted is like the tip of the iceberg. If anyone has info on increased cancer incidence in firefighters who fought fire at Cerro Grande, please email Ab. I know there was a push some time back for documenting exposure and failure to inform firefighters of risk when the fire was burning. As people retire, the details could be lost. We need to not let that happen. I know Paul Gleason was at Cerro Grande, was Kirk Smith there? Any others with cancer?

Ab.

Mollysboy, I appreciate the comments.

Former Optimist

Matt Taylor will be going to Houston for treatment after Thanksgiving - in about 2 weeks.
Thanks to Matt's family, to Lance and the Prineville IHC, to Vicki at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and to the praying, wishing, hoping, dreaming fire community for keeping hope alive. You can make a donation to the Foundation to help cover the costs. To do that by phone, call 208-336-2996.

We pray for a success. We are Eternal Optimists in this regard.
The Abs.

Good luck, Ron! Ab.

NorCalTom

As I understand it... Gotta have yer medic cert these days. As the dept has downsized, they've been picking up the foresters and shifting them to fire to keep them employed. I probably have incomplete info, so you CDFers chime in. Ab.

I wonder how far this process will be taken... Now that its started and plea bargains seem to be occurring in secret (non disclosure) will that threat of "take our deal or pay the big bucks and possibly do the jail time" come up over and over again? Will DOJ repeatedly pressure people into resigning rather than fight charges they might be found not guilty of? Where will it stop? Will an engine capt be responsible for their crewmember who doesn't fasten their seat belt? or a newbie seasonal ff that smokes some pot or drinks some alcohol and gets themself killed? He*l, with all the PC human resources restrictions in place you can't even fire incompetents, slackers, jerks if they know how to work the system. I heard of a mechanic guy (non-fire) last week who 15 yr ago was busted for growing pot at home, had stolen electrical things from the FS shop, and he wasn't fired... he was put on disability! In my observation its even harder today than 15 yr ago to dismiss loosers.

Ab, sorry for venting. I know I'm preaching to the choir. I just feel some despair that the system is breaking down beyond repair. There were close calls during the SoCal Firestorm. We all did the best we could and followed our training. We did not have time to complete all checklists or in my opinion someone would of died. If a fed had died I'm sure that firefighter's supt would be facing the threat of jail time or a resignation with loss of retirement benefits. A study was done to show it was our intent to follow our training. The WO has disregarded it. They are OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. They should not be surprised when the next fire hits socal if no ICs are willing to fight it. I can see it now... pull everyone back and watch. Already teams are called in to fight fires that the forests used to handle. And congress wonders why the costs are so high. Pay now or pay more later. Support the troops or none will sign up. A firefighter draft?

SoCal Fed firefighters are moving on to county or city employment. Did you see the list of openings on the Los Padres? Look at the jobs page. Mid level Federal wildland firefighters on the interface don't make enough to buy a house in CA. To become "professional" (Series 401) you have to take a mandatory cut in pay. Liability insurance is a tax that doesnt protect you from jail time. FF are expected to put ALL on the line for our jobs with no backup. The only organizations that really selflessly support us are the FWFSA, the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and theysaid. Thanks to everyone helping.

I worry about who will train the new kids with so many going. And I still feel guilty that when a close call came I lost situational awareness and in a moment was more worried about loosing my career, my retirement, my family than about the ff under my command who made a bad choice.
Ab, sorry again for the venting.

Former Optimist

Yer welcome. Venting allowed. Thanks for your contributions to fire. What's needed to improve the system, reduce distracting thoughts and increase retention seems pretty clear. Ab. (We'll be in touch.)

1. Narrow banding......FCC wanted to sell additional frequencies. This
   was made possible by mandating our move from "wide band" to "narrow band".
   As I understand it, it is sort of like requiring "fine tuning" radio system
   to prevent slop over into someone else's frequency.
   
   Challenge......narrow band radios are supposed to work okay with
   older "wide band" equipment, but that's not proven to be the case. We have
   had greater incidence of loss of communications. Solution has been to
   make a total change to an entire unit rather than try to mix components.
   
2. Digital.......another mandate for the Forest Service.
   Advantage: When you have a signal, it is crisp and clear (analog
   can receive a scratchy, noisy signal).
   
   Disadvantage: Works in a straight line......no "bending over the
   horizon" like with analog. Bottom line, you've either got a signal, or
   you don't.

   Additional challenges: Many of our cooperators are sticking with wide
   band, analog systems. Solving that will be on a local basis.

   Also, our elimination of IT services may mean we are left with contracting
   out for "radio" service. Assuming some national forests are located in
   rural or remote areas (who'da thunk it?).......finding a local radio
   service may prove a challenge. Hey, we'll just wait 72 hours for someone
   from a metropolitan area to drive up.

   And in the meantime........we'll have to be firm in saying "NO" to "make do
   with only partial communications". We'll risk the resource loss, but not
   our firefighters' safety.

Folks, feel free to correct me if I've got some of this wrong. I am in
no way, shape or form a communications wizard.

Old Fire Guy

Please remind us of the issues and/or let us know about any problems encountered with digital radio technology that might affect firefighter safety. Please consider how digital radio use affects communication among handcrews, engine crews, the air show, overhead? And anything else you'd like to throw in. Do you think the use of digital technology at this time is the way to go? If not, what has to be addressed before it could be?

Thanks, Ab.

Mike
mreekers@scu.edu

Ab is passing info behind the scenes as well.

Ab note: Donations of federal leave time would be very helpful for Matt and his family. For info on how to do that, email Ab. If you want to make a monetary donation to help with his treatment, make a check out to Matt Taylor and send it to Lance for deposit in Matt's account.

Lance Honda
Prineville Hotshots
3160 NE 3rd St
Prineville, OR 97754

Our hopes and prayers abound for all decisions made by Matt and his family to continue the good fight for his life. Some of the experimental work offers profound results and a turnaround is seen in 3 weeks if it is the "right" treatment. This Ab and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation are exploring ways to help meet Matt's expenses if the experimental treatment route is taken.

I worked island park for the forest service this summer. i saw
many people wearing these boots made by dubois leather. I
am wondering if any one likes/hates these boot. some info please

thanks skimore

Northzone said: "stress alone will raise bad cholesterol levels."

Clarification: Long term stress has been shown in several studies to be linked (correlated) with raised blood cholesterol (LDL) levels. This is an indirect relationship (stress (A) affects something (B) that causes increased cholesterol (C)). Researchers think the most likely way that stress may "cause" higher cholesterol is by affecting eating habits. When some people are stressed, they console themselves by eating fatty foods which contain saturated fat and cholesterol, and which contribute to higher levels of the "bad" blood cholesterol.

Here's a place you can find the basics on the different kinds of cholesterol, the risk factors, and what you can do to affect your cardiac health. FDA on Cholesterol

I must get out right now and do my "kicks" around the marsh!

Mellie

"All those years of cumulative stress, high blood pressure while on the job, sucking smoke and eating the wrong things will catch up to you."

Stress related blood pressure elevation has long been medical fact. Increased cholesterol levels because of stress remains controversial but more medico's are paying attention. (A decade ago a cardiologist told a close friend of mine that stress alone will raise bad cholesterol levels.) Hopefully medicine has evolved to now acknowledge damage to hearts, not only orthopedic stress factors.

AL, in addition to the History Channel and PBS websites, you might check MSNBC for "dangerous jobs" (missed the smokejumpers). some documentaries are repeated elsewhere. Thanks in advance to folk who will alert us about fire related TV airings in advance, even if it's a rumor.

Todd, remember, presidential appointees must be congressionally approved - short tenure 4 yrs max, and submit a letter of resignation at end of president's term. a re-elected president may ignore the letters or accept them. a new proposed USFS boss must be congressionally approved. considering the departure of Powell and other national security folk will no doubt overshadow congress's focus on Mr Conner's qualifications.

geeze, I've given myself a headache *L*

northzone

I'm really glad you're recovered and doing well. I've meant to
email and just haven't. My bad. <smooch>

Mellie

Thanks for the good wishes. I am doing fine and recovery from my turn of heart problems is going just fine thanks to the wonders of modern medicine and medications. The scary thing is that my LDL and HDL as well as blood pressure (thanks to retirement) were where they were suppose to be when I had my heart attack. So the message I share is that it's alot more than a few numbers. All those years of cumulative stress, high blood pressure while on the job, sucking smoke and eating the wrong things will catch up to you. The Doctor chastised me for being a smoker (even though I quit over 30 years ago) as I still had smokers lung sounds due to exposure while on the job. So be safe and healthy out there guys and gals, it does catch up to us with age and time.

To Rich Hawkins, best wishes guy, slow down and take the time you need to heal up, the job will always be there. . .

Hutch

• From Germany in heavily accented german font: "Lots of people think there was no plane that flew into the Pentagon on 9/11. It was an explosion from inside. Could you put me in touch with someone from the fire team that confirm this can?"
• Environmental groups are bringing lawsuits involving treatment of firefighters against the FS so they can offer to drop them in exchange for the FS placing more land in wilderness designation.
• The AT contracts were cancelled so MAFFS could take over, followed by creation of an aerial firefighting force under the Dept of Homeland Security. Planes could get used for other purposes like hurricane relief in the off season.

There are some emails that come in that are really strange... Ab.

Hello,

I am a contractor working for USNORTHCOM. We are conducting a wildland
firefighting AAR. Any chance you could forward this to the Western
Regional GACC aviation representatives (Rocky Mountains westward)?

One of our after action review topics (AAR) is to identify and train NG
helicopter crews on bucket operations prior to the fire season. The GACC
input would be useful. I don't have contact information on all the GACC
aviation representatives. Please forward if able.

Regards,

Mr. Eric Bleakney
L3/SY-Coleman Analyst ISO USNORTHCOM J35
Eric.Bleakney@northcom.mil

Mr. Eric, Looking up GACC emails and forwarding all those attachments is beyond what we Abs are willing to volunteer for. GACC mgrs who are interested, you could get in touch and ask him for the map, agenda, etc, etc. Abercrombie.

Fighting Fire with Fire (West Glacier, summer 2003) was on PBS last night. It's due to rerun on 11/20 (Saturday) at 9:30 pacific time. You can look here for local listings (enter your zip code) for a day or a week. www.pbs.org/tvschedules/

AL

Thanks AL. Ab.

Please take a look at the photo of the Type 6 Brush Truck for sale in the Classified ad under Equipment, Heavy. Never too early to start planning for next season.

Ab.

Todd

All the FS financial folks who know the interagency agreements and the players in the other agencies are being relocated to Albuquerque, New Mexico! How stupid! No more quick and easy agreements when fire is scorching those rich citizens and congressionals front doors. Gone. extinct, kaput, finito, adios, hasta la vista, nonexistent, vaporized, obliterated, etc. Why don't we take away all the comm units while we're at it???

AH

I agree with your first two paragraphs, but have something to add in response to your third.

I'm not a "make me look good boss" but this Ab believes that if you only "bring problems", it's like whining or calling wolf. A whine often ends with... a whine or, worse yet, a whimper. In my experience workable solutions are more easily found if suggestions are made by the professional who is intimate with the problem. Problem solving is almost always a collective process even if it's something like not signing off a task book and telling the person what they still need to do.

I have frequently said, "Don't simply bring me a problem; think about it and bring me at least one solution you can think of as well." Often to solve a problem, the dialog - from brainstorming to laying out viable options - has to start somewhere. A brain is required... or as someone I know has said, "YOU have to 'show up'."

ff

"...I am actually a city structure FF, who LOVES wildland. I get the best of both worlds by having a summer fire season, and a year round job that takes care of my family well. Because of this, I have a lot of fire experience on both sides. I know the two are different, but you have to admit, you learn a lot for EITHER side by doing both."

This may be off topic, but unfortunately too few structural FFs are prepared for wildland status on Fed lands unless they are protecting some structure. the other side of that coin is that our Fed FFs are too often ill prepared or trained for all hazard disaster response.

Considering this ever evolving occupation and the growing risk factors, we can only hope the folk in DC are paying attention to safety issues when they allocate $$s. Parity would be nice too.

northzone

Scotty Vail, Don Studebaker (altho I heard that's on hold because of Hawkins
being out), John Wendt, Becky May up north and others I'm sure will come to
me as soon as I hit send.

I'm adding my prayers for Rich Hawkins and his family for the best outcome
and his speedy recovery.

I hope Hutch has made a full recovery as well.

NorCalTom

Will do. Ab.

Thanks E. I put it on Equipment 8 photo page. Ab.

New photos of helos from Hickman and Mike Evans on Helicopters 18. Photos of Rock Creek Memorial NV (at bottom of page) from Winslet and the Monument statues at Boise (near top of page) from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation on Monument & Memorials photo page. Thanks contributors. Some new logos on Logos 10 from and lookout at Sanhedrin MNF on Misc 2 photo pages from CZ. Please read the photo descriptions for the full info.

I hope everyone is having a fine holiday (if yer off). Thanks vets.

Ab.

Ab note: I clipped the indictment because we cannot confirm that. Thanks for the post GET, many are wondering.

Yes, sorry, I should have included that the first time:

Richard D. Hawkins
Fire Management Officer
Cleveland National Forest
10845 Rancho Bernardo Road
Suite 200
San Diego, CA 92127

Thanks for the email follow-up Ab.

R5er

Todd

Good response to the Skittles post with image from Bored Hotshot that we had up on theysaid over night. Appreciate the humor. Ab.

CM

Some of us might agree, except that one of the food contractors asked about firefighter likes and dislikes so we're entitled.
My two most memorable gustatory experiences:
a small container of raisins and peanuts -savored one by one- at sunset with pink light glinting off the mountains in the distance and valley fire burning in the dark below;
my third day in firecamp and the closeout dinner entre was a standing rib roast cooked to perfection with horseradish, almost crispy little veggies, little potato chunks, Joe, Joy and Al. Ab.

Nepper

I would like to update everyone in the wildland community about the
status of Matt Taylor, the Prineville Hotshot sff, who is suffering from a
brain tumor. Things have been pretty much up and down this summer for Matt
and his family, as in good news-bad news-good news-bad news. About two
months ago the MRI showed another tumor on the right side of his brain (the
left side was where the original tumor, surgery and radiation were done).
Matt received radiation on the new tumor, and will have another MRI soon to
determine if the cancer has spread or has regressed. He is still taking
chemotherapy to the tune of about $2000.00 a month, and his insurance is
covering about half of that. Thanks to all your kind and caring
generosity, we are able to cover the rest so far. According to the
radiologist, there may likely to be more spread of the cancer, due to the
new growth on the right side of the brain. What happens next is the
deterioration of brain function, which Matt is starting to show some signs
of. His biggest need at present is for more leave to be donated. At
present, his total is about 253 hours, which adds up to around 31 days.
Matt will be needing more than that, since I do not foresee him returning
to work, and we will keep him on the payroll as long as he has leave.

If you have any leave you could donate, that would help tremendously. If you
are not familiar with the process, you use an AD 1043 form. The directions
for the procedure are on the form itself. You can get the form at your
local office or pull it off the "forms" site in the FS directory. I will
also include a copy in this email. (If you need one, contact Ab.)

I also want to send my thanks, the gratitude of Matt, his family, and the
Prineville Hotshots out to the entire wildland fire community, to everyone
who opened their hearts, pocket/check books, auctioned things off, passed
messages, donated a fund raisers, said prayers to help and support Matt,
Kiersten, Jordan and the rest of his family. Your response has been
overwhelmingly generous, heart warming, and awe inspiring. I just feel so
tremendously proud to be part of a community that acts on its compassion
in so many supportive and caring ways. It is my hope that you all
experience the blessing that giving to others in need provides.

Gratefully yours,
Lance Honda

Federal employees, in these days of "Use it or loose it" this would be a very meaningful donation.
Some have asked about a monetary gift to help with the costs of his medical treatment. Here's the account info.

If you're in Oregon, the direct deposit account number with Bank of America is 2884010802 .
If you're in another state, you can direct deposit into Bank of America OR2-134-01-01.

If you'd rather pop a donation check in the mail, make it out to Matt Taylor and send it to Lance for deposit in Matt's med treatment account.

Lance Honda
Prineville Hotshots
3160 NE 3rd St
Prineville, OR 97754

Here's that sweet photo of Matt and his daughter. Ab.

Tahoe Terrie

Can you imagine a burn boss or IC being sued for a decision that resulted in the loss of structures? I'm sure they would be defended by the government. But then again, what if they weren't. Most District Rangers and other line officers I worked with had this insurance.

RR

Here is some info I dug up on the Personal Liability Insurance, It's not a plug for these guys, just some general information about it. I would highly recommend getting it, the cost of it VS the actual Lawyer fees is well worth it. It's a fact that people die on fires and unfortunately this will happen again and again.

Watch your ass.

MG

--------------------------------------- Especially designed for Federal Employees

Lawsuits against Federal Government employees are increasing at an alarming rate. Members of the public, even fellow workers, can bring personal lawsuits against you. You are at risk whenever you are acting within the scope of your job including:

* delegating assignments
* making staff evaluations
* working at your desk
* meeting with the public

Away from your desk, you could be exposed to even greater risk of lawsuits from private citizens. Frivolous or not, it could still cost you thousands of dollars.

Effective October 1, 1999, all Federal agencies are required to pay half the premium cost for most employees up to $150 per year.

The Federal Tort Claims Act states that the government can choose whether or not to defend you. It cannot cover any monetary damages awarded against you personally. Even if the Justice Department refuses to defend you, this plan picks up the full cost of your legal defense and pays covered damages awarded against you (up to the $1 million limit).

This Professional Liability Insurance was specially designed to protect Federal Government employees. You are protected anywhere in the world against losses from lawsuits stemming from the performance of your official federal duties.

This article offers a brief description of the Professional Liability Insurance plan. Details can be found in the Certificate of Insurance which will be mailed to you upon enrollment.

ELIGIBILITY Any full-time employee of the Federal Government working at least 17.5 hours per week is eligible for Professional Liability coverage

DESCRIPTION OF BENEFITS
* $1,000,000 of professional liability coverage for judgments arising from acts, errors, or omissions committed by you within the scope of your employment.
* Administrative legal defense coverage up to $100,000 to pay the costs of defense and monetary penalties associated with administrative proceedings for acts committed or alleged within the scope of your employment. Coverage is provided for Internal Agency Disciplinary Proceedings; Criminal Proceedings; and Judicial Sanctions for any monetary penalty.
* Protection against judgments involving personal injury, bodily injury and property damage within the scope of your employment.
* Protection against lawsuits that existed before the effective date of coverage provided as an insured that you had no knowledge of such suits and no othere insurance is in force.
* A discovery period of 36 months is effective the day you retire.

This plan pays for your defense cost even against groundless or fraudulent suits. This is in addition to your liability limit and is without limitation. There is no deductible, and where allowed by state law, this plan pays punitive damages up to your coverage limit.

EFFECTIVE OF COVERAGE Coverage is effective on the first day of the month following receipt of the application and payment, except if paying by payroll deduction. Coverage will then be effective on the first day of the pay period for which your premium is deducted.

JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CONSULTED IN DESIGNING THIS COVERAGE This program was developed with the advice and consultation of attorneys in the Torts Claims Division of the Justice Department tmattrovide the fullest protection possible for you as a government employee. They work in the field daily and are more acutely aware of your needs than anyone else. You should feel confident knowing this is the only professional liability policy developed with the advice of the Justice Department.

EXCLUSIONS Coverage under this plan does not include:

* Any obligation for which the insured or any carrier as his insurer may be held liable under any workers' compensation, unemployment compensation, disability benefits law, or other similar law.
* Damages arising out of willful violation of a penal statue or penal ordinance committed by or with the knowledge or consent of the insured, or damages arising out of acts of fraud committed by or at the direction of the insured with affirmative dishonesty or actual intent to deceive or defraud.
* Liability assumed by the insured under any contract or agreement.
* Bodily injury arising out of the ownership, operation, or the use of any land motor vehicle designed for use principally on public highways, including any machinery or apparatus attached thereto, or any aircraft or watercraft.
* Property damage to:
* property owned occupied by, or rented to the United States Government or insured;
* property used by the insured;
* property in the care or control of the insured or as to which the insured is for any purpose exercising physical contact (not applicable to property of persons in custody or property under lawful control).
* Any liability for hazardous substances, including asbestos.
* Bodily injury or property damage resulting from accidents caused by nuclear materials. (more)

Fuels Guy said:

Concerning beer. I must request that all beverage evaluations be confined to rice and corn free products. And we all know what watered down means in our profession. Some dang engine crew. Even though they handle more fires than any other group.

I agree!

The Dodge P-up I used to drive was junk, tranny problems, big turning radius, and could not walk it's way out of any thick stuff! I am not really a Chevy guy, but my Tahoe is much better. My Scout kick butt on either of them though!

Respectfully,

BB

Ab,

I have received an email from a firefighter friend requesting financial assistance for FS employees who may need to mount a legal defense without bankrupting their families. A number of people - from contractors to ICs to groundpounders - have expressed a need for this kind of fund. I agree. Just as our Wildland Firefighter Foundation supports families of fallen wildland firefighters in their time of grief and loss, a legal defense fund helps ensure fair representation and helps defray trial expenses if it comes to that. The post is self explanatory.

I am sending in my contribution.

Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a fund that has been established to assist the FS employees involved with the Cramer fire.....who have the possibility of facing criminal charges.

Cramer Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund

November 1, 2004

In July of 2003 a wildfire claimed the lives of two firefighters on the Salmon-Challis National Forest. This tragic fire impacted the lives of many people; including, fallen firefighter family members, survivors, and many other employees.

The accident was investigated by the Forest Service, the Office of Inspector General (OIG) and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

Disciplinary actions are moving forward by the Intermountain Regional Forester against several employees. The US Attorney in Boise, Idaho has paneled a Grand Jury to review the facts. Criminal indictments could be returned on one or more individuals.

A legal defense and employee assistance fund has been established to provide financial support to Forest Service employees who need assistance to respond to administrative and potential criminal charges.

Contributions can be made to:

Account No. 1000015584 Cashmere Valley Bank
Cramer Legal Defense Fund P.O. Box 5040
127 Easy Street
Wenatchee, WA 98807

This fund will remain open until April 1, 2005. The Fund Administrator is G. Elton Thomas with assistance from several others. Funds will be distributed on the basis of demonstrated need. Any funds remaining in the account on April 2, 2005, will be donated to the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation, Emmitsburg, MD.

A copy of the Fund Charter can be obtained upon request, by writing: Fund Administrator, 1031 Canal Blvd, Wenatchee, WA 98801.

This is a privately established and managed fund that is not sponsored or endorsed by any government agency and it does not have tax exempt status.

Cramer Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund Charter

November 1, 2004

Purpose: The purpose of this fund is to provide financial assistance to employees (current or former) involved with administrative and legal proceedings resulting from the Cramer Fire.

Process: Contributed funds will be distributed by a three member Board of Directors, one of whom is G. Elton Thomas, Fund Administrator. The Board will have sole responsibility for these funds and shall develop controls to account for fund distribution and management. Records shall be kept and made available for review.

Distribution: Requests for funds shall be made to the Board in writing and shall be limited to those named in administrative sanctions by the Forest Service and/or are the target of potential criminal charges resulting from the Cramer Fire. Monies from the Fund will only be distributed to current or former employees. Written requests shall be submitted to:

Fund Administrator
Cramer Legal Defense and Employee Assistance Fund
1031 Canal Blvd
Wenatchee, WA 98801

The written notice shall detail the specific reasons for the request. All decisions by the Board are final and are not subject to appeal or litigation.

Thanks, Fedfire. Interesting bit of history. Ab.

HPWren site the article talks about: http://archive.hpwren.ucsd.edu/cameras/

SoCal CDF

Goldfinches on the feeder birdcam... almost looks like Original Ab's backyard feeder. Ab.

“Enroll in a 4 year degree in a natural resources field. I'd suggest "forestry", but others will do. Pay for college by working on a fire crew or engine crew etc. Continue in fire getting all the training and experience you can. Demonstrate a good work ethic. Become a leader with both education and experience. We need that.”

AMEN! Bravo OFG! That is exactly what so many of us did for so many years to get to where we are now. I started when I was 18. I would not take back a minute of the professional development of my career including both ground-pounding and education. We worked our way through college, took a lot of government sponsored training, and had a blast doing it. We also made a lot of friends along the way.

Experience and Education, the 2E’s, are essential prerequisites in every vocation, every profession. This is certainly the case in land management agencies, especially for wildland fire managers. The wildland fire manager position now requires someone very well educated in the scientific aspects of wildland fire i.e. fire ecology, botany, biology, etc. as well as the political aspects of same As a wildland fire manager you will go mano-a-mano with those dreaded Ologists on the interdisciplinary battlefield. Without the knowledge and credibility of a science-related college education and a whole lot of experience the wildland fire manager simply loses the argument and firefighter safety is compromised. There are many examples of failed wildland fire programs out there for exactly that reason. And firefighter safety is compromised!

Now, all of that having been said, I absolutely believe in the concept of a professional wildland fire management series for GS 9 and higher wildland fire managers. I do not believe, however, that either of the 2E’s should be relaxed from those required for any other federal professional natural resource manager positions. In the aftermath of South Canyon we identified lack of proper management education and planning in wildland fire as a primary cause of tragedy fires. Professional wildland fire managers must be properly educated in both the planning and execution aspects of their responsibilities and must be comparably educated to the rest of the interdisciplinary community. We must do away with the 0401 series for wildland fire management and professionalize into a separate Wildland Fire Manager series to give us unique and equal representation at the table! Yes, redcard qualifications must continue to be a major part of the prerequisite for these positions. We said this in the aftermath of South Canyon almost 10 years ago! Why is this taking so long?

Casey: Keep listening. We need you!
Thanks BLM Bob for website information!
Going Back To School: Enjoy going back to school!
Wags: You have great focus and spirit! Keep it up!! I would like to get you talking to my 21 year old son!

This Summer I had the great fortune of working with a great group of folks on the North Rim. We all studied wildland fire together and looked out for each other for days on end monitoring WFU’s and executing Rx burns (thanks Ed and Dick; MSO Jumpers Bobby, Jen, Rocky, “Axe Murderer” --going back to school?). We all agreed that, as Paul Gleason said it so well, we must all continue to be “Students of Fire”. If we do that we will not only be doing what is best for ourselves and the Earth we will also under our watch keep all firefighters safe.

NMAirBear

Thanks cz. Interesting old black and white. Any more info on it? I posted it on AirTankers 14. Also posted some more photos taken by Mike Evans photos of Lead 88 and T-21 on the Fred and Waterfall Fires. Ab.

Fire Fighter Memorial at Bass River State Forest.
Memorial location: N39, 40’, 06.3” by W74, 26’, 27.4”. Greenbush Rd. near the intersection of Stage Rd.
1977 fatality location: N39,37’, 16.8” by W74, 26’, 21.7”. East of Allen Rd. near the intersection of Oswego Rd.

I’m currently unsure of the 1936 fatality location; if I come up with something I’ll update this.

The Bass River Memorial was originally dedicated on May 25, 1976 to commemorate the 40th Anniversary loss of 5 fire fighters (two State Fire Wardens and three Civilian Conservation Corps fire fighters) who were burned over while fighting a forest fire near the Town of Warren Grove in 1036.

On July 22, 1977 four Volunteer Fire Fighters from the Eagleswood Fire Company were killed when their engine was burned over on a fire several miles from this memorial. In 1982 a plaque remembering these fire fighters was added to the existing memorial. Another memorial stone was placed by the fire company in front of the Forest Office.

Bill Edwards
Section Forest Fire Warden
NJ Forest Fire Service

Thanks Bill, I put it on the Memorials page with a link to the memorial photos page from there.

Readers, while you're on the memorial photos page, could you remind me who sent in the photo for the roadside memorial to Shane & Jeff and where it is? Ab.

Thanks Eric, I posted them on the Grand Prix/Old/Simi Fire photo page, about halfway down. Ab.

"- the 401 series will not affect firefighters at a GS-7 and below. Read
the ifpm site."

Yes it will, it affects everyone down to GS-5

"- during the broadcast, one of the panel members stated quite unequivocally
that OPM was _not_ open to creating a wildland firefighter series. That
would seem to indicate that the roadblock is at OPM, not the agencies."

There is evidence to the contrary!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the inmate crew thread... Old CDF Capt said,

"With over 30 yrs with CDF, 18 yrs as a Crew Capt, I have worked with IHCs on many fires. Some CDC crews are very good type 1 crews and some are not. Some IHC crews are very good and some are not. But to answer the final question, are CDF crews type 1? Just ask the Fed ICs who need crews at intial attack when their own resources are not available. It seems that CDC crews are always type 1 crews. So what is the problem?"

Nope, Look at the NWCG standards! ICs will take what they can get. Face facts, CDF Inmate crews DO NOT meet the standard!

TS

On the pot at Sanhedrin Lookout. The tower survived
the Mendenhall fire (87) but the outhouse did not. What
!! No privacy ?

It's pretty funny, we Abs wish we could share it, but we won't; we've heard that Homeland Security has recently raised the terror alert from “yellow” to “conservative". Thanks cz for the laugh. Ab.

I posted 2 new pictures of the Mendenhall Fire ('87) on Fire 25. Some new photos helos including one of the Chester Helitack crew on Helicopters 17 and Helicopters 18. Chester logo is posted on Logos 10. I posted photos on Handcrews 16 of a furry tarantula friend and a handcrew member on Cabin Creek. Thanks contributors.

Ab.

jd, good comments all around. Thank you.

Let me make it clear that my informational post about the legal process is simply that, an informational post. In no way shape or form do I want to crucify Alan or anyone. That said, I feel that Fire Managers of today need to understand the cumbersome legal processes and growing personal & family risks associated with fighting fire (and managing homeland security incidents). Just as there are more mandated checklists to attend to in the midst of hot interface fires, so also are there new mandated investigations with legal recommendations by OSHA and OIG when things go wrong.

Some questions that have recently crossed my mind:
What happens when somebody dies because the fire manager was busy doing mandated paperwork when fire behavior changed? What climate is created when fire managers get blamed but line officers do not? How do you identify or "take to court" systemic forest issues -- say, those involving past management that influences the current condition of the fire program there? There are human factors issues, too. This stuff is not black and white. It's the color of cheese, swiss cheese.

Mellie

Refs:
Carson on the Swiss Cheese Model

Accident Investigation Guide (pdf file)

"Can anyone fill us in on the process? with the 3 reports (FS, OSHA and
OIG)? What's next legally?"

my answer in September that I never sent in:

Following the Cramer Fire deaths, there were 3 reports which were mandated:

• The USFS Report with the many controversial redactions imposed by the
  Office of Personnel Management (OPM);
• The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) Report after
  which the Forest Service paid a fine; and
• The Inspector General's Report on whether the handling of the incident
  should result in criminal charges of wrongful death brought against an
  individual or individuals overseeing or related to the incident. This
  was required as a result of the 30 Mile deaths and before that, of Storm
  King. The Inspector General's Report has not yet come out (as of September).

Here's the legal process that usually occurs following release of an Inspector
General's Report. The Inspector General oversees the Office of the
Inspector General (OIG):

The OIG report makes recommendations regarding criminal liability to the
Department of Justice (DOJ) which is then obligated to act upon them.
The OIG report may recommend no further action or it may recommend that
charges of criminal negligence be brought against one or more people.
If the OIG report recommends criminal charges be brought against
someone, DOJ first asks the state if they want to take the next step in
the criminal proceedings.

If the state says yes, a Grand Jury is convened to see if there's
enough evidence to take the case to trial and the process proceeds at
the state level.

If the state says no, the DOJ must take the next legal step and the
process proceeds at the federal level. The DOJ issues an arrest warrant
and a notice to appear before the Federal Magistrate. Federal marshals
may come and lead the person away in handcuffs. The Federal Magistrate
then follows a legal evaluation similar to that of the Grand Jury, to
see if there's enough evidence to bind the person over for federal
trial.

If either the Grand Jury or the Federal Magistrate decides there's enough
evidence, the case goes to trial in state or federal court, respectively.
If the person is not represented by the Agency lawyers and
cannot afford a personal lawyer, starting when charges are first
brought, a public defender is appointed by the state or federal court.

Doesn't the Forest Service have lawyers to defend its employees against
criminal (or civil charges)?
They do, but sometimes employees do not get that defense. The FS lawyers
are from the USDA Office of General Counsel. To determine if they will
represent an employee, it must first be decided if the liability should
be borne at the personal (individual employee) level or at the
governmental (employer) level. Agency legal representation is available
only if the employee is considered to be working "within the scope of
their employment" when the incident occurred. As I understand it,
working "within the scope of their employment" means that when the
incident occurred, the person was doing what they were supposed to be
doing to fulfill their job.

Are the families of the fallen involved creating this court case and process?
No, absolutely not. This process occurs completely independently of the
families' wishes. The DOJ and the state are working on behalf of the
fallen who cannot work on their own behalf. In fact the families of the
fallen may greatly oppose criminal charges being brought and this part
of the legal process would proceed anyway. However, a family can decide
to file a civil suit against individuals (or the Forest Service if the
employee was acting "within the scope of their employment" and the USDA
defends them) for up to 3 years following the death.

What is the difference between a criminal and a civil case?
There are many differences. In a criminal case, a jury must decide
unanimously that a person is guilty. The guilty verdict results in a
sentencing process and may result in jail time. In a civil case there
needs be only a "preponderance of guilt" for a guilty verdict, ie, it
takes only seven or more jurors, not all 12. Civil suits that result in
a guilty verdict often require a cash settlement to the family and there
is no jail time. In civil cases in which the FS lawyers determine that
the FS employee was acting "within the scope of their employment", the
FS legal team takes on representation of the individual who is no longer
at personal financial risk for a guilty verdict.

As you can see from the arrangement that is reported to have been reached, the process is
not cut and dried. What Hackett's "leaving the USFS" means legally, I don't know.

Mellie

"FUNDING
It is the responsibility of each bureau or agency to ensure every employee
affected by the IFPM Standard meets the minimum qualification standards by
October 1, 2009. This includes paying for training and associated costs as
well as providing employees with work time to complete the training."

There are a lot of issues and challenges with the IFPM, but everyone that
reads this site could save a lot of time and effort and focus their energy
better if they would just "read the directions." The web site URL has been
posted here a couple of times.

Incidentally the question about paying for the costs for incumbents is also
answered in two places in the IFPM FAQ pages.

As far as training priorities being set to help people meet IFPM, remember
that doesn't mean that _all_ the training resources will be directed to
that - the "GS-4/5/6/7/8 and some 9 folks" that you mention will not be shut
out of training. Think of it like multiple fire priorities - the fires that
have lower priority still get resources and supplies, and they often move up
in priority as the others get handled.

I'm going to hold you to your promise to tell us why the problem with the
wildland firefighter series isn't with the OPM.

BLM Bob

Tahoe Terrie

AP Wire release
Manager of deadly Cramer wildfire leaves Forest Service in deal

SALMON, Idaho – Alan Hackett, the U.S. Forest Service incident commander when two firefighters died in the Cramer fire in 2003, has left the agency, but officials declined to release details of his departure.

Thanks for writing in. Ab.

I am trying to get up to date on the Memorials/Monument Sites page. I split out the Memorials/Monument Photos (from Miscellaneous photo pages) and put them on their own page, to be referenced by the Memorials/Monument Sites page. The photos page is also linked to photo descriptions with credit given to photographers. Please check your contributions to make sure I have correctly given credit. If you have any more info to share, I'd appreciate it.

I am currently adding the pictures and info that you've sent in during the last year. If you do not see photos or information you contributed on those two pages and the photo description page, please email me. Winslet, Bob K and Kathy B, I have your photos/info to add.

If anyone has corrections or additions, please drop me a line. Thanks, and thanks to new contributors.

Ab.

As a college student and seasonal fire fighter looking to make fire
my career I was wondering if you or anyone could give some
clarification regarding the 401 series. What do we need as fire
fighters to advance beyond a GS 7? What are the educational
requirements? Is the 401 series the series all federal fire positions
above a 7 will be going to?

Thanks,
wags

The Laguna Hotshots are in the process of building
a training/day room. We are looking for old crew photos to hang around the
training room. Here is the years we need: 1974 to 1979, 1980 to 1989 and
1992 to 1999. We would also like, if possible, location where the photo
was taken and crew members names in photo. Photos can be mailed to:

Laguna Hotshots
PO Box 418
Descanso, Ca 91916

You can either send a scan version or we can scan an original and return to
you. Our email system will only allow I believe 25MB attachments. So
depending on the size you can also email to: dbaldridge@fs.fed.us. Any
assistance would greatly be appreciated. It would be great to do this
small tribute to our past Laguna Hotshots.

Thanks,
Laguna Hotshots

If anyone wants to send some here, I can make sure the shots get em in the right form. Ab.

Good job. Ab.

Here is a photo of the firefighter memorial for Denis Lee Cullins who died on September 29, 1987 on the Lauder fire. Denis was a Helitack crew member on Copter 102 from Kneeland Helitack in Humboldt Co. California. I was part of the rescue team that treated and medivaced the crew off the fire. This process took several hours from locating the crew to treating their burns and placing them in burn kits. Then a Coast Guard helicopter with a cable winch raised each victim one at a time off the fire and flown to a waiting medical helicopter and flow the the burn center in Chico, CA

Bob Zwicky

I put a link to it on the Wildland Firefighters' Monument and Memorials page (under Mendocino NF, Lake Co CA).

Thanks for taking on the project of clarifying the report and for bearing the expense of greater bandwidth use. (Be careful you don't get fined for going over bandwidth.) We Abs know both the expense in time and the monetary cost that can result from making information more widely and clearly available. Thanks for providing the service. Ab.

Ab.

MG

Readers, please be sure and read my comments on 10/30 welcoming Stihl back as sponsor of theysaid and requesting you send in nominations for their Heroism Award. Thanks, Ab.

However if you do not plan ahead, and get to GS-7 without 401, you might wonder how you arrived at such a dead end regardless of your fire expertise, people managing skills, etc. Ab.