#2. " The federal statutes are not specific as to particular actions that will and will not result in legal action. Fire managers who act with “due caution” are generally believed to be fulfilling their responsibilities for firefighter safety."

Here again, the actual "trigger points" (the ICs and others involved actual actions) that the OIG and USA used to determine criminal liability need to be disseminated in order for us to truly learn and instruct how to act with "due caution" regarding the ICT3 and other fire supervision roles.

#3. "Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution can answer the following three questions in the affirmative (YES)… Did you have a plan that followed agency policy and guidelines? Was it a good plan? Did you follow the plan? The Forest Service will support you and your actions if you can answer YES to all three questions."

Historically we have designated ahead of time individuals to fill key positions on our Type 2 and Type 1 IMTs. We are now expecting an ICT3 (and maybe ICT5’s, 4’s and IA IC’s) to perform the above without the aid of a designated Command and General Staff "team". The Incident Complexity Characteristics / Guidelines for a Type 3 Incident outlined in the 5109.17, Chapter 20, 21.1, a & d., state "some of the Command and General Staff positions may be activated, as well as the Division/Group Supervisor and Unit Leader levels" & "the incident may involve multiple operational periods prior to control, which requires a written plan."

My point here is that if Type 3 IC’s and organizations are deemed necessary, Type 3 IMTs with designated individuals filling the C&G positions need to be established with a rotation as with the Type 1 & 2 IMTs. Without the above support, one cannot truly expect an ICT3 to meet all of the requirements of the position while dealing with the normal distractions usually taken care of by the Command and General Staff. Designated Team and Line officer support is key to answering the questions asked in item #3 in light of the current requirements of the ICT3 organization.

#4. Documentation of risk assessment, steps to adhere to the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders, mitigate the 18 Situations That Should Watch Out, are steps that should always be taken in exercising due caution.

Once again team support, especially in the planning, documentation and safety arenas, is key to an ICT3 being able to accomplish what is now required of the position. Without the proper documentation, we all know "that it never happened". Without the proper level of support, one cannot expect an ICT3 to make the "correct" decisions or provide the proper documentation 100% of the time.

As we all know, it is the small percentage of "failures" that will lead to the holes in the swiss cheese model lining up.

I was on an incident earlier this year in Nevada as a Division Supervisor. When The Type 2 IMT was getting ready to turn the incident over to a Type 3 organization, I was asked if I would fill the Type 3 IC position. I respectfully declined based on the fact that the local unit was not going to provide any designated qualified individuals to fill any of the C&G staff. A unit cannot expect an ICT3 to commit to taking over an incident without the proper level of qualified support.

I have looked at and addressed my reactions and responses to the continuing Cramer "papers" from a Chief Officer, Initial Attack and Type 3 Incident Commander standpoint. Following are some of my thoughts:

Since it is obvious that Type 1 and 2 teams are experiencing difficulty in filling positions, I would put forth that it is highly unlikely that local units can field enough qualified folks to fill out Type 3 teams. This being said, maybe it is time that the Land Management Agencies stop deluding themselves into thinking that they still have the tools to manage incidents, especially with part time IMT’s. Full time IMT’s should be established from the Initial Attack organization through the Type 1 organization. These full time organizations should be in the business of preparing, training and mentoring others in Incident Management, Incident Tactics and Strategies, Leadership and providing part time support for local Land Management agencies instead of the other way around. Sound like a full time Fire Organization?

With the above being pie in the sky and highly unlikely to happen in the near future, I believe that we need to accomplish the following:

Land Management Agencies are the only organization I know of that only gets its “Team” together for the “big game”. Fire Management and Line Officers need to commit to staffing or working towards staffing, complete Type 3 organizations, having them available on a rotational basis and committing to annual exercises for currency for ALL IMTs with Line Officer support. I envision this as having the Type 1 and/or 2 Teams conduct and rate the exercise for the Type 3 organizations. With some planning, this could fulfill the requirement for the annual Fire Refresher. A "320" exercise if you will. Training, exercises and drills are KEY to performance.

If units are unable to field a complete designated Type 3 organization, commit only Type 2 IMTs to any Incident beyond a Type 4 complexity incident or a Type 3 IMT from another unit only with a fully staffed organization.

Fire and Aviation Management needs to request that the WO provide the USA & OIG reports that document the actions of all individuals that lead to the final determination by the USA of criminal liability. Without this critical information, we are merely guessing at corrective actions in a broad sense.

yactak

•    With the passage of Public Law 107-203 OIG conducts an investigation from a ‘prosecutorial’ position.  That means that OIG is gathering information for the U.S. Attorney to determine if fire managers and those with incident management oversight responsibilities committed a federal offense during the course of their duties that resulted in injury or death to a person on the incident.

PL 107-203 never was meant to "make" the USDA OIG take a prosecutarial role. It was meant to have an independent third party investigate Forest Service entrapment fatalities. Somewhere, OIG or someone is misinterpreting the intent of the legislation.

Lobotomy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Key Messages for Forest Service Fire Managers
Lessons Learned About OIG Investigations

Background
With the passage of Public Law 107-203 in July 2002, the U.S. Department of Agriculture Office of Inspector General (OIG) for the first time investigated the circumstances that led to the death of two Forest Service firefighters on the Cramer Fire.

Based on the facts developed by the Inspector General during the course of their investigation, the U.S. Attorney (USA) for the District of Idaho opened an official inquiry into actions taken on the Cramer Incident. The USA reviewed its case against the following stature language; “without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act” to make a final determination of criminal liability. Upon completion of the inquiry the USA reached a pretrial “diversion” agreement, similar to a plea agreement, with the Incident Commander.

It is important for Forest Service line officers, fire management officers, firefighters and potential incident investigators to understand the role of OIG in incident investigations.

Key Messages -

• With the passage of Public Law 107-203 OIG conducts an investigation from a ‘prosecutorial’ position. That means that OIG is gathering information for the U.S. Attorney to determine if fire managers and those with incident management oversight responsibilities committed a federal offense during the course of their duties that resulted in injury or death to a person on the incident.
• The federal statutes are not specific as to particular actions that will and will not result in legal action. Fire managers who act with “due caution” are generally believed to be fulfilling their responsibilities for firefighter safety.
• Fire managers and members of Incident Management Teams who act with due caution can answer the following three questions in the affirmative (YES)… Did you have a plan that followed agency policy and guidelines? Was it a good plan? Did you follow the plan? The Forest Service will support you and your actions if you can answer YES to all three questions.
• Documentation of risk assessment, steps to adhere to the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders, mitigate the 18 Situations That Should Watch Out, are steps that should always be taken in exercising due caution.
• Line Officers should practice careful oversight in adherence with the fire policy in FSM 5120 and 5130.
• Because of the commitment to safety throughout our fire management organization, these circumstances will be rare.

I also had the same problem at Disneyland. My family and I went to Disneyland
this last fall, and I presented my government ID, they flat out said "No". But I
also think maybe because my government ID looks fake. It's poorly laminated.

Fire Cache girl
Gila National Forest

MG

We Abs enjoy the site as well, Star Tree. I hope you will write in sometime in the future. You learn to express yourself better as you continue to practice here. We do too... and deciding to have a leather-thick skin while yer learning helps, also. Ab.

Have any resources from US firefighting/incident response teams been
organized to assist in the relief? I just checked a few of the national websites
for the FS and found nothing.

--elkski

Ab just did some calling... The FS folks in Washington DC who are normally involved in disaster response were called in last night to the Disaster Response Office. They are assessing the situation, which will likely take some time. If/when there is direction for the IMTs to participate, the word/deployment will go out probably from FEMA, the Oakland CA office.

CNN is reporting that a US Aircraft Carrier and a large amphibious landing ship with heavy helos (on one vessel or the other) are diverted to the disaster area, along with possibly additional 700 military. Military fixed wing surveillance aircraft are, or will be, working out of a military airfield in Thailand to provide aerial recon information for assessment of the disaster. Help is on the way although it will be way too late for many people.  Prayers for them and their families.

Good report. Ab.

From the Abs at wildlandfire.com

RB

Ab and crew, thanks for the forum. It's great to see so many
new people coming up through the ranks. In spite of changes,
I have great hopes for the future.

NorCal Tom

I guess if I had one wish for the new year it would be that the Wildland Firefighter Foundation didn't have to struggle so to meet the needs of our fallen firefighter families and our injured firefighters, regardless whether fed, contractor, state, vollie, county. Hopefully this will be the "hump" year when funding gets on smoother footing. In the end the $$ needed always comes through, but it often causes me some heartburn even if Vicki always has faith ...and her credit card.

Thanks to all in this community. Thanks to Original Ab and his terrific wife. <double smooches>

I love you one and all!

Mellie

Wildland Firefighter Foundation

We wish you the best with this KRS. Making available information on the OWCP process will help many.
You might email Vicki Minor at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation with the link info in case she's off for the holidays. The Foundation has tried to help injured firefighters with the OWCP maze before. Confusing... Keep up the good fight.
Personal thanks to those helping Krs out. Once again, we're all in this together. Ab.

A Firefighter

Sharing info in this community is what it's all about, second to fighting fire, that is. Best wishes to ALL for during this season of celebration. Ab.

To change this, let your voices be heard. Visit the ADFA site and see who you can influence. Ab.

Although its not under the umbrella of "wildfire", an article in today's LA Times is worth reading: a builder in SoCal is suing PERSONALLY 2 USFS technical specialists, and the Forest Supervisor, for blocking developments on Big Bear Lake.
More important is the FAILURE to date of US Government Attorneys to defend these employees who were operating within the scope of their employment.

See any parallels to the wildfire world, like prescribed burns that get away/cause smoke, or wildfires that burn down homes (maybe even a Congressman's)?

Scary times ahead........................!

www.latimes.com

Mollysboy

Schedule A is Type 1 engines working cities, counties fire depts/fire districts.
Schedule B is type 3 engines, Wildland.

Info available on CDF web site www.fire.ca.gov link for careers with CDF.
FF1 applications and info online also.

signed
CDF INFO

RRU - www.fire.ca.gov Ab.

QA/QC = quality assurance/quality control.

KID, There was some discussion of CA vs National Registry (NR) EMT starting at this October 2004 bookmark. It's my understanding that in our area of norcal that the National Cert process will be followed for recertification. Ab.

The "Four ways" from Steve brought a smile to my face. I have a fifth. In 1963 while the "last Mcleod" on the Del Rosa Hot Shots, we had a number of forestry majors from Missouri on the crew. They all had the same good-old-boy sense of humor. One evening, after getting off the day shift from a nearby fire, we were moving single file into the posh LakeArrow Resort to have supper. People stepped aside and applauded as we went by. Our line momentarily stopped at the door. A man about our age asked the MSU guy behind me, "How do you get a job fighting fire?" With out hesitation he answered, "You can do what I did, steal a car." The "Lead Hook" was Joe Cruz, who 30-some years later, would retire as National Director of Fire and Aviation Management. Even Joe, who was always very serious on the job, got a big grin.

John

Nice one. Ab.

Both CDF and the USFS have administrative fees built into many of their
agreements in wildland/urban interface areas or areas that could be expected
to use a multi-jurisdictional response to wildfires. I am not sure where you
can find the individual agreements, but from what I've heard, there are either
Regional or National templates available.

Rogue Rivers

Here's the start of a page that contains all the ways and whatever issues exist for each. Types of temporary Fire Hire Ab.

Let's not forget - NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN CALIFORNIA!

If you are a VFD in Montana AND your department has an engine or crew contract with the Feds, it is through the MT DNRC. You don't get paid for 24 hours. You get the equivalent of EFF rate for your position (FF2/FF1/ENGB). As posted before, you get overtime but no hazard. If the hours for your engine or crew get cut back by the IC Team, you lose. The EFF rate is LOWER then AD. Essentually, your VFD is a State Contracted engine with the hardware rent going back to the VFD, personnel pay goes to your pocket. The State sets the contract rate for all crews and engines under their purview. I was sponsored by my VFD.

As a EFF Single Resource you get the LOWER EFF rate. You do NOT get paid for portal-to-portal, 24 hours or other dreamland rates. And forget staying in the nearest motel here. I have been on fires in Montana that the nearest TOWN with a gas station is 58 miles down a dirt road, let alone how far it was to the next motel.

There are very few fully staffed fire departments in Montana. Most of these full-time full staff departments are city assets. The very few, full-time, non-volunteer, non-state/federal firefighters I have seen on Type 1 & 2 are either members of the IC Team or very local assets doing structure protection near their town. Most of the time these were under Mutual Aid agreements.

My point: don't lower AD rates thinking the ADs are expendable or unnecessary. We all know they are neither. The impact of this proposal can be far greater just 'a couple ADs'.

While we are all in this together, some of us are just in a little deeper than others.

Steve LCES

When I started it was "shut up and learn". It is hard to do that when you are responded to a multi vehicle accident on the highway with multiple victims. On the job training is ok on the fireline when you are surrounded by experienced wildland folks... but when giving treatment to a trauma victim, it is not. We need to accept and even demand better training so new firefighters are better equipped than we were. I do not want new firefighters to have to spend years on the job to get training just above the basic level as we had to do. Does anyone still (at least in R5) think that TWO WEEKS of training for new firefighters is remotely adequate for our mission? Does anyone out there know a 5 year guy that can't fill out a CTR or program a radio? Does anyone wonder why municipal firefighters have to go through months of training when our new people go to a token session to be followed by "station training"...ie... project work -- when we are often called upon to perform similar or the same task(s). Ever wonder why they get paid alot more......

Sorry for the rant but it seems clear to me that the ideas of the past are not working well with the mission of the present and to provide the public with the quality service they expect from their civil servants, we not only need to ensure that new firefighters are properly trained and equipped for the mission but the folks that have been around need to spend less time trying to maintain the status quo and realize the game has change and the Forest Service must change with it.

\
Jay

Thanks Ab for the space to babble.

The 18% is what local departments in CA apparently charge in administrative fees, not ADs. Ab.

Pirate

There was a porn spam hack this morning and Larry shut 'er down. Ab.

Seldom Seen, Hugh, et al,

Santa Maria Fire Dept does that -employes retirees. The administrative fee probably helps keeps the little CA community's FD alive. Anyone know how insurance, workers comp, etc would work? I'm assuming it's part of what the admin fees pay for. Do ff ADs get a LODD benefit? I guess so. Probably the Bush finance guys would like to do away with that seeing how they treated Alan Wyatt's family. Do those employed by the little depts get the LODD benefit?

Does anyone know more about the other modes of fire hire than AD? Why are there even State EFFs and AD teams? Why not just have state teams that go out of state when the need arises. Seems like that could be important in the case of a terrorist threat. Sure could be some discussion here of the different kinds of hiring systems besides AD, how they pay, what kinds of relative costs go to other entities - like admin fees - and what ff benefits each has. I'm not retirement age yet, but I am starting to think about that.

Any of you finance people in the know want to spill the beans?

WG

You can find a permanent link to this organization on the Classifieds page under Associations. Ab.

Before all the Forest Service folks jump on me...I bleed green, just not the kind of green that pays the bills!!!
\
Jay

Another good one retiring early next year. We and CDF are going to miss you John. The New Zealand guys said many thanks for your assistance. Ab.

Pluskai, eevr the wsie ass. Ab.

What is interesting is that an OSCT2 requires DIVS and DIVS has ICT3 as a qualification track. Yet an extended attack ICT3 commanding a fire with multiple divisions (which don’t require qualified personnel) may have an OSC working for them. Is this a symptom that IC’s may not need to be able to, or have the knowledge to, fight fire until the type 2 and 1 are activated? Is the OSC and DIVS lineage being protected for team assignments? Is the system forcing the need for teams? Is there an artificial bottleneck around the DIVS position? Is the system just getting screwed up? This is like an archeological dig; the deeper you go more questions surface.

J.Watt

Woman Who Set Colorado Fire Won't Face Prison

Colorado sentence of 12 years was thrown out, but not the 6 year Federal sentence.

Savage,

So you and some other folks think I’m opinionated. OK, I’ll own up to that. As for being long-winded, well, complex issues cannot be explained in short sound bites. But I think I’ve earned the right to voice my opinion on this site. I’ve spent most of my career as a smokejumper, rappeller, or helitack supervisor, how about you? I’ve initial attacked somewhere over 200 fires by aerial delivery, and have probably about the same amount of ground crew/engine IAs, plus years of prescribed fire experience, how about you? I’ve been chased around and humbled on a number of occasions by Salmon River fires, how about you?

Savage, maybe you need to check your own “factual information” again. Let’s discuss the statements you made about my recent posts.

1. In your first bullet, you are correct when you say that the two rappellers requested a ride out, but that is about all. You, OSHA, and anyone else who thinks that a helicopter is a safety zone, need to understand that you are barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, it would have been wonderful if everyone had picked up on the many now-apparent danger signals, if everyone had communicated known hazards flawlessly, if the helicopter had just picked up Shane and Jeff before the fire overran their position. But then, if they had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, would we?

Unfortunately, in the real world in which I work, right when you need them the most, helicopters need fuel, or a maintenance check, or a radio doesn’t work, or you get a tail rotor chip light, or a hundred other things. And what eventually happened at Cramer? When H-166 finally got up to H-2, it was too smoky for it to land.

Let us stick a fork in this one, shall we? A helicopter is not a safety zone. And counting on a helicopter to swoop in and rescue you from hundred foot flames in the nick of time is not a good idea any way you cut it. If you are depending on a helicopter as your only means of escape, especially in a place like the Salmon River breaks during extreme burning conditions, then you are rolling the dice in a big way.

As a rappel spotter, I never deployed rappellers on any fire unless we had discussed a plan for LCES before they unplugged their flight helmets and left the helicopter. A safety zone is an area on the ground where you can take refuge in a worst case scenario, not a hypothetical helicopter that may never come back. And a dehydrated ceanothus brush field that has not yet been fired out is not yet a safety zone.

If I understand the Cramer report correctly between the redactions, the spotter who spotted Shane and Jeff discussed escape routes and safety zones before deploying them at H-2. My personal hunch is that Jeff and Shane did have a plan between themselves for LCES, from what I’ve heard about them they were two good hands, and I would be surprised if they had not done so.

MORE

"Why the hell do people (such as yourself) think this, constantly, about every single contractor?"

I never said anything of the kind. Please reread:

"Contractor lobbyists - nobody wants to give up a gravy train."

I am now curious as to

"Why the hell do people (such as yourself) think this, constantly, about every single government employee?"

What I do wish to be identified with is some opposition to the use of lobbyists to determine how to run government programs. In the early 1990's I recall a meeting where two managers from our Regional Office stated that in our region we have been running with one more heavy air tanker regionally than we would have liked. The preference at the RO level was for an additional Shot Crew instead of that air tanker. However, the power of that contracting lobby was such that we were limited in our options.

Locally, we have been using with great success a State Inmate program for slash piling etc. We can show that the costs of this program are about 50% of contract piling and the DOC is doing an absolutely fabulous job for our Forest. {Incidentally, we openly admit that on medium and larger projects we government types are also not only far more costly than DOC, but also more than contractors for slash piling.}

There are benefits to society here as well.

However, a contract lobby is again applying pressure for us to discontinue use of DOC Crews 'cause they want the business.

{Trivia: Our SOP commonly on this Forest is thinning by contractor then piling by DOC.}

What I'd hope for is that portions of the contractor world would use the lobby lever less and move the fulcrum to where it favors them on the productively level.

Sorry for the confusion.

And I stand by my points that to set up a fire suppression air force, that contractor lobbyists would still be a difficult obstacle and that it would cost too much. Please accept the later part of this last sentence as a compliment this time.

Fuels Guy

IFPM: Training for Agency Managers (small pdf file)

Rogue Rivers

CDF Firefighter I (seasonal) vacancies.
www.fire.ca.gov/CDFCareers/pdf/05ff1_bul.pdf (pdf file)
CDF Firefighter II
www.fire.ca.gov/CDFCareers/pdf/04ff2_rider2.pdf (pdf file)
CDF Fire Apparatus Engineer
www.fire.ca.gov/CDFCareers/pdf/04fae_rider2.pdf (pdf file)

Lobotomy

Fed Firefighters out there, hang in with the process. In the midst of chaos, the difference that
one person can make is sometimes remarkable. Be Safe!

Love and best wishes for the holidays,

Mellie

Glad to hear you and Rich are doing better. We're going to miss you
in Tucson this next year.

"Boo"

Managing the Unexpected (downloadable 79K doc from the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center) in Prescribed Fire and Wildland Fire Use Operations: A Second Workshop on High Reliability Organizing. Application deadline is February 1.

The first session in Santa Fe in May 2004 was excellent. It looked at the Cerro Grande fire. This Workshop will look at the fires on the Okefenokee NWR over the years, culminating with the 125,000+ acre Blackjack Bay Complex in 2002.

Dick Mangan

Readers, take a look at the Classifieds page. There is a Heavy Equipment category there; oh look, some engines for sale. Scroll down... some tools... and there's Colorado Firecamp home of all the known Cramer documentation. If you don't know what to give a firefighter for Christmas besides our fire photo calendar, consider some gear from one or more of our many advertisers, many of whom read and sometimes post here. Ab.

Interesting enough, fed folks rarely post during office hours unless they have an "official" announcement or request. Posts come in before hours, after hours and at times in between when we get an update of posts caught in the spam filter, like yours was and some others posted above. Readers, if your post isn't posted in a timely manner, it probably is hung up in our spam filter. Try again. Ab.

Are our fed cooperators in socal going to have enough ICT3s to pick up those early
season IAs on fed lands? Man, are you guys gettin' screwed over. Every fire a campaign
fire?  Maybe we'll be screwed too if the drought and fire season start too early. We
dodged the bullet last year. After the firestorm of 2003 we deserved the by.
How long can that go on?

Make those FS legal beagles give you some backup /relief in writing. That's what we'd
get our union to do.  SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY. Oh, yeah, fed firefighters, no union.

SoCal CDF

Let's not get too smug about unions.
But I agree, we might have a rough season for many reasons. California is synonymous with complexity and an 11 month fire season some years. Ab.

http://fsweb/pao/news/clips/2004/12dec04/1212a04.htm

NM Business Weekly, By Celene Adams, December 12, 2004

The U.S. Small Business Administration has announced an initiative to
assist in the economic development of American Indian owned/operated small
businesses by supporting the creation of 20 American Indian-owned firms
that will work to reduce wildland fire risks. The plan, launched under the
federal Healthy Forests Restoration Act, passed last year, is to recruit 20
tribes throughout the country to take advantage of new federal forest
restoration contracts with an aggregate worth of $200 million, says Malcolm
Bowekaty, project director with the Intertribal Information Technology Co.
(IITC). The SBA recently contracted with Rio Rancho-based IITC for its
help in establishing new American Indian corporations and with bidding on
contracts.

How about we say "explain the choices made by  - or the actions of - Jeff and Shane". I truly do not think posters are "blaming" Jeff and Shane. I do take your point. Ab.

This is "All of Our" Site ... The wildland firefighting community makes this site what it is, although it seems sometimes we Abs "work mighty hard at it too. Ab.

Hmm, I googled 'em in the archives and on the net with no success. Maybe they went out'ta business or simply changed their name? Ab.

I've tried searching several artist sites to find people that specialize in wildland
fire prints. Do you know of any sites and/or artist names?

Thanks
km

We have several among the Familysaid group. I'll cross post this over there, too. Maybe someone will write in. Ab.

Hutch

ps Mellie how are you doing? haven't heard from you in a while.

Have you checked the salad bar? I think I saw her there. Ab.

Misery Whip has made it clear he is not criticizing Jeff and Shane. Ab.

The issue of "Forestry Technician" GS 0462 vs "Firefighter": Well up until about 1972 the fire folks were "Fire Control aids or Techs" GS 0456. The PDs were fairly accurate and they were recognized as firefighters. That got in the way of moving folks around to do work so all of us were reclassified as Forestry Techs (0462), though for the most part the PDs transitioned across fairly close with a percentage of duties talking about forestry tech jobs like timber, reforestation, recreation added. So there is history there, though its only the really old folks that remember that.

The environmental movement hit the good old U.S. and the Forest Service began bringing in folks with degrees and interests other than "Forestry" to diversify the skills of the work force. Those folks are now the dominant force in agency management and dang few of them have spent much time on fires at the groundpounder level and therefore do not understand fire in its freeburning state. The lack of knowledge and oversight, they want to be as uninvolved as possible.

Then there is the quals system: I.C. 3 is nested at the Strike team leader level, and really should be at Division. As a District FMO whenever we were looking for an IC for a Type 3 Fire, I went looking for a DGS, not a strike team leader. Why? Because a division has a much higher experience level and as a DGS you are challenged to handle logistics and even have some planning responsibility that does not exist at the STL level. Quals! at one time a person had to perform and be a solid performer to be recommended for training to the next higher qual. This created an attrition process and shook out the weaker performers over time, (not saying folks on the Cramer were in this group). Today it's almost automatic, when you get qualed at one level you become a trainee for the next. I have seen folks trying to get the task books passed off without doing the jobs. Guess what? Some did, now they are one, hope that scares ya as it should!

Also on quals, I am a firm believer that DFMOs should have minimal fire quals at the DGS level or better. There are folks out there that are DFMOs that are Crew Bosses. This watering down of skills really is being driven by the social engineering that is going on in the agency to meet diversity at all grades, as to require these skills for the DFMO job is seen as a barrier to those that do not have it. Dang straight, translates to Firefighter safety.

As for the 401, sorry folks, education does not translate to improved firefighter safety. Dont get me wrong; education is good (and yes I have a BS in Forestry) but it isnt worth a damn without the ground level fire fighting experience to be in the job.

Finally as to vacant positions, lots of reasons. Us old folks are leaving fast, and there are not alot of people ready, or willing to step up yet and its going to get worse, anyone stop to think the amount of new folks coming in the bottom that are being trained at a madding pace and the cost of it? Heck ya can hire 3 folks that "can go do things" vs one manager that is there to provide the oversight and keep them safe.

Sorry this got so long and I will stop here, but there is alot more to it than whats apparent at the first blush. Be safe out there folks !!!

OK now throw your rocks.
Hutch

Got yer flaps down? Ab.

On another note, some of our wildland fire calendars are already going to Australia. Some new reviews are posted. Git yer Wildland Fire Calendar orders in. Original Ab is wearing out the road between his place and the PO.

• Continental Airlines made a decision to install a titanium “wear strip”, or metal bar, on a location on DC-10s where aluminum wear strips were normally used. This is also in violation of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration rules.
• Somehow the part failed on one of Continental’s DC-10s, or was not installed or inspected properly. It fell off and came to rest on the runway shortly before the ill-fated Concorde took off.
• Years before, the manufacturers of the Concorde made a decision to use lightweight materials covering the fuel tank.
• According to a report about the Concorde,
  • “The experts pointed to 67 cases of tire or wheel ruptures which in 24 cases “provoked one or more impacts on the structure,” the report said. It added that in seven of the incidents “the fuel tanks were pierced with one or more holes.” “
  • In spite of this evidence, over the years, there were no modifications made to the fuel tanks to reduce rupturing caused by blown tires.
• The Concorde struck the DC-10’s wear strip on the runway. A tire ruptured which pierced the fuel tank, igniting the fuel. The aircraft crashed, killing 113 people and the Concorde program. Experts say that if the required softer aluminum wear strip had been used, instead of the much harder titanium, the tire probably would not have ruptured.

If only one of the “slices” had been removed or mitigated, the Concorde would have had a better chance of staying in the air that day.

It reminded me of the Cramer Fire. I have no personal knowledge of the incident, but according to the report, some of the Swiss cheese slices included:

• The FMO position had been intentionally left vacant, overloading the person who was serving as the Type 3 Incident Commander on the fire.
• The IC was attempting to handle responsibilities unrelated to the Cramer fire.
• No action was taken when the Forest Aviation Officer told the District Ranger that things were not going well on the Cramer fire.
•  No one assigned a Safety Officer.
• The rappeller spotter misjudged the amount of time it would take the two rappellers to construct the helispot.
• No one assigned a lookout.
• No one selected a safety zone, or timed the travel to one.
• The rappellers constructing the helispot were not situationally aware.
• The rappellers may have been counting on helicopter extraction as their only escape route.
• No one decided to extract the two rappellers at the same time the other nearby person was flown out earlier, or when the crews were told to leave the area.

There may be other “slices”. I am not going to say that mitigating only one of these conditions would have meant the difference between life and death for the two rappellers, but it is conceivable, using an active imagination, that it might have. It might have.

Jackson

Mellie, thanks for an excellent overview of the current conditions in your post.

I just finished reading Jack Ward Thomas' "The Journals of a Forest Service Chief". I would recommend it to all for reading.

Even back in 1994, Jack Ward Thomas noticed that wildland firefighters were beginning to identify themselves more with the fire community than with the Forest Service community. In his book, Jack said, "This has led, in turn, to a segment of the Forest Service workforce who more and more identify themselves with the firefighter contingent than with the Forest Service per se."

Jack was correct in seeing that many wildland firefighters viewed themselves as more correctly associated with firefighters than as forestry technicians. What Jack Ward Thomas didn't address was the fact that wildland firefighters were recognizing their changing roles and the changing roles of the agencies.... not thier disengagement with the Forest Service workforce.

Now, ten years later, people are still increasingly identifying more and more with the fire community. Jack Ward Thomas' observations of Southern California are now found in Flagstaff, Albuquerque, Boise, Asheville, Chuk, Florence, Long Island, and countless other areas across the United States. There are currently three schools of thought:

1) Have a wildland firefighter series..... GS-2 through GS-15
2) Include the wildland firefighters within the GS-0081 series (Bad choice)
2) Have a mixed bag of series (over 20 approved for firefighter retirement) and a single series (0401) for fire managers (Current Plan) (Really bad choice for safety)

Now a comparison of the primary series (From the OPM website): go HERE for more

During this time, the ___ was involved in multiple radio conversations with Central Idaho Dispatch in Salmon, Idaho about using resources assigned to the Cramer Fire for initial attack on the Stoddard Fire, a new start close by. H-166 was later diverted from the Cramer Fire for initial attack.

From page 4 of the Cramer Executive Summary:

More than 30 minutes after losing contact with the rappellers, the IC became involved in the search and rescue operation. Prior to that time, he was checking on the safety of personnel near H-1 and dispatching Cramer Fire resources to another fire on the forest.

From page 3 of the Cramer Executive Summary:

There were inadequate resources and a logistical inability to fully utilize available resources to implement the _____________. On July 22, there was confusion about the availability and positioning of some resources and helicopters were not available to retrieve the rappellers at a critical moment of need.

Do you get my point? Regardless of whether Alan was directly managing these resources and fires on paper, in reality he was heavily involved in prioritizing resources for the Cramer Fire and other fires. Because the system in which he worked failed to protect him from the very predictable possibility that too much was being expected from one person, Alan, and Shane and Jeff, wound up paying for those deficiencies.

As for the vacant FMO position, you should re-read my post. I said forest FMO, not Forest FMO with a capital F. I was referring to the vacant district position. Your point about Alan being acting DFMO supports my contention that too much was being expected of him, and that it was reasonably predictable that his Type 3 IC responsibilities would overlap or conflict with his FMO responsibilities.

From page 9 of the Cramer report:

The FMO position of the North Fork RD remained vacant 1 to 1 ½ years prior to and during the Cramer Fire, although a new hire for the position arrived shortly afterward. The delay in filling the district FMO position was partly because of concerns by the _____________ that the district did not have adequate long-term funding.

As for AFMOs and FMOs being IC on a fire once in a while, I have no problem with that. But only if someone else is covering their primary job responsibilities while they are acting as IC. In case you hadn’t heard, one of the post Thirtymile findings was that Type 3 ICs should not have additional responsibilities beyond managing their own incident.

My “tirade”, as you put it, about who else should be held accountable for Cramer, was actually a literary device called a rhetorical question that is supposed to provoke thought. There is no real correct answer.

But I would ask you, quite seriously, why stop looking for accountability at the district ranger, fire staff and forest supervisor? Why not ask what roles the regional foresters, the regional and national fire and aviation directors, and the chief played? What about our parent agency, the USDA? How about congress? Who sets the budget that leaves forest fire managers in the unenviable positions of having to consider intentionally leaving critical fire positions unstaffed?

And you should be careful about trying to put words in my mouth. I am baffled that you would say

“seems as though you (quite a few people here, actually) would just point that person towards another fire, and tell them to “give it another shot . . . it’s the failures of the organization, not your incompetence.” A lot of contributors to this website want to put the blame on the only two people who are no longer here to defend themselves.”

I never said or meant to imply anything like either of those contentions. If wildland fire supervisors make serious errors in judgment on wildfires, their training and qualifications should be examined before they are reinstated to active duty again. And if their qualifications and abilities are found to be lacking, they should be removed from positions of responsibility.

So let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that maybe Alan Hackett wasn’t the best leader or Type 3 IC in the system. Would that be his fault? Don’t you see that a system that would permit someone to act in a capacity he wasn’t well suited for would be at least equally at fault for approving him to act in that capacity in the first place, and for not detecting and correcting that error sooner?

As for blaming Shane and Jeff, I don’t blame them at all. I consider them to be victims of predictable organizational deficiencies.

Before we continue this conversation, you should read Managing the Unexpected. You would find that one of the core concepts of HRO-style organizations is that they are very introspective about finding and eliminating latent conditions (potential contributors to accidents) within their systems, what they call a “preoccupation with failure”.

That is what I am advocating. The Forest Service needs to ask itself some very hard questions right now about what the wildland firefighting organization of the future is going to look and act like.

How should we evaluate and screen potential future fire leaders? What are the current strengths we can play to? What are the weaknesses we should attempt to correct? What kind of training and support system is needed to give incident commanders the ability to successfully manage wildland fires every time?

Yellowjacket, I have a feeling that you and I are not so different, we just have different ideas about how to get from here to there. Many of us are frustrated with the way things are today. I am tired of seeing some of our best young people hauled off hills in body bags. Whatever you may think of me, I wish you and yours well, and I welcome the interesting discussion.

Ab, As always, thanks for the great forum.

Merry Christmas,

Misery Whip

Krs…I feel like anything I say is kind of inadequate, but it ain’t worth suck-starting a service pistol for. Your letter shows that you’ve maintained your sense of the articulate and the absurd, and right there, my friend, you’ve shown you’re stronger than they are. Now just don’t let ‘em grind you down…we all believe in you.

CW, your last post was good…I think you’ll find on this forum as long as you think before you write, and definitely think before you start blaming and name calling, you’ll be at least given a hearing.

Nerd on the Fireline

Sounds like a plan. That means South Ops will go off the temp website look, finally. Ab.

DJ

See AD Pay Rate Comparison -- New Rates with Old Rates -- that Jackson sent in on 11/29.

Here's the AD pay plan Draft......... currently out for review also posted on 11/29/04.
AD Pay Plan Draft Review Letter
AD Pay Plan Draft

Ab.

A link to the
Audit Report from OIG (47 page pdf file)

You have every right to be loyal to the firefighters that lost their lives on Cramer. That is a good trait. Don't apologize for it. But also don't expect the ICT3s of the world to be able to personally enforce all the so called SOPs we have been saddled with. There are walls of books now with regulations and rules and checklists and reminder cards and now legal precedent, just to control us firefighters and CYA management. It seems ICs everywhere are expected to memorize every word and if anything is not adhered to exactly (and "exactly" can be an interpretation of management or OIG) then God help us if we have family problems or stress from our daily activities when the firebell rings. And then upload that with maybe not having a boss who has a clue about fire or maybe our boss's position is vacant and we are hanging out a green mile. I am not condoning the mistakes the Cramer IC made, but I know he is living with that every day. I think that is punishment enough as Misery Whip so eloquently described.

I am one of those giving up my ICT3 quals and having second thoughts about being a DIVS (I've done both for 18 years). It's a hard thing but the consequences must be considered.

FireNWater

My main point (s) are these; We are losing fire fighters at an alarming rate, the USFS is not learning from their past mistakes. Our truly experienced folks are retiring, we are now looking to all the "kids" in the agency as experienced, when they really may not be. We need to quit pushing people who are not qualified to the front of the line and asking them to be our leaders. We should expect it to be a long, trying and difficult path to becoming a T3IC. You should have to prove yourself, whether you are an apprentice or not..... Yup, an even playing field that gets the job done and done safely.

OK, I feel better now. I also have issues with the USFS student fast-track program, but that's a whole other can of worms.
The Forest Service needs to wake up and quite getting our fire fighters killed. Catch it at the ridge and plant it back, give those folks who fight fire something better to do in the winter than sitting around collecting unemployment. There is a lot more to fighting fire than just fighting fire.

Enough ranting, apologies to anyone that may be offended, I just cannot stand the thought of loosing one more fire fighter to save a bunch of trees.

Just another chick on the fire line.

Steve, as far as CW's post goes, I understand now that he knee jerked because he identified with the firefighters who died on Cramer and with their families. This would be a hard forum for family members to read right now, but the issues need to be discussed so we may try to learn the lessons.

I Should not have come down on Alan personally, My hackles came up when it seems a lot of people want to blame these 2 dead firefighters. This lead me to reference the chain of command and the wisdom of more seasoned supervisors stepping in at appropriate times.

If a police officer draws there weapon and kills someone in the line of duty they will be reviewed by a panel or team and if they acted within there SOPs they are backed up by their department. If they did not, they likely will be prosecuted and fired. (I am not in law enforcement but that seems to be the case.) The military is the same and we have seen several situations of this in the news lately. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. People still apply or sign-up and fill these jobs knowing this is the case.
If acting within standard SOPs OUR ICs SHOULD BE BACKED TO THE HILT by their agency.

If they did NOT why should they be above answering for there actions? Maybe I completely missed something here ( I am sure many would agree) but it seems that is what was being suggested, that they could make serious mistakes with little or no penalties. Where else in this society does this happen? I hope that will clarify part of my so poorly worded previous post.

Misery Whip nice job on your last post and yes I do understand it. I am sure that means nothing coming from me but we cannot all have your clarity of thought and gift with the keyboard.

I will post no more. That should at least make most of you happy today.

CW

CW, you're welcome to continue to post here. We all have our hackles raised from time to time. Ab.

Misery Whip, you're AWESOME. Thanks for the exposé.
Human factors aren't a consideration for those who think that all we need are checklists.

Mellie

1. Quit your day job. I'm not suggesting people retire, resign or drop their quals. You can still wear the green and keep the ICT_ on your red card. But, if you are assigned to be an IC, give the incident your undivided attention. Drop the collateral duties. FMO roles, timber contracts, recreation permits, fuel reduction acreage targets and everything else can either wait or be handled by someone else.
2. "Go out there and take it." This line is a quote from fact 90 of the Cramer Fire report. Because of redactions, we don't know who said it, but it was said to Alan Hackett. On July 22, he was 13 miles from "there" - except during 2 recon flights. It was the strike team leader who "took it" (facts 179, 181, & 182) and pulled the crews off of H-1, preventing an even bigger tragedy when the fire blew up.
3. Staff your priorities. Allocate available resources based upon incident priorities. If firefighter safety is your #1 priority, what excuse do you have for not posting lookouts or not having a safety officer?

This isn't just about mitigating the need for a legal defense fund. OIG is recommending that the USFS conduct investigations for near-miss incidents, just like they do now for the fatalities. The WO is saying AARs are enough, but OIG doesn't appear to be buying it.

And, anyway, the ground pounders deserve the best from their commanders.

vfd cap'n

BB, Sorry for taking so long to reply, I just returned from a road trip. In reference to my 12/2 post, thanks, and, yes, feel free to share it.

To Original Ab & everyone else who liked my 12/2 post,

Thanks, it needed to be said. Obviously, I’m not the only one who feels this way.

To VFD Cap’n,

I have read and admired a number of your posts on this website. In reference to your 12/3 post on They Said, I don’t recall anyone arguing on this site recently that the skills and training of people in charge of fatality incidents shouldn’t be re-evaluated, or that fatality incident supervisors shouldn’t be re-assigned to other duties if they make serious errors in judgment.

What I object to is the implication that Alan Hackett is a bad person because this bad thing happened on his watch. Somebody died, ergo someone in charge was bad and must be punished. Is it right to debase and humiliate a public servant who was just attempting to cope with a bad situation to the best of his abilities? Should he have to cop a plea and lose everything he has worked his entire life for or face jail time? I don’t think so.

I don’t know Alan Hackett, but I do know some of the surviving supervisors and firefighters from South Canyon, Thirtymile, & Cramer. They are mostly good people who had good intentions that went awry. Many of them are also post-traumatic stress victims, and whatever parts they played in their respective tragedies, deserve compassion for having to view firsthand the results of Good Intentions Gone Wrong.

INTENT is the real issue at hand here.

Yellowjacket, In reference to your 12/3 post on They Said, I know more about the Cramer Fire investigation, South Canyon & Thirtymile too, than you could possibly imagine. Since accountability seems to be the axe you are grinding, how far do you think accountability should extend for Cramer? How many others should we fire and turn into criminals? Do you think that fear of punishment will make the rest of us more diligent and therefore safer?

So as long as we’re after accountability, how about firing the Salmon-Challis forest supervisor (oh, wait, he resigned), the rappel spotter, the dispatchers, the pilots (can’t fire them, they’re contractors), the ATGS, the district ranger, (can’t blame the FMO, there wasn’t one), the fire staff? Why stop there? How about whoever signed off Alan Hackett as an ICT3, and for that matter anyone who signed off on any of his taskbooks? And who was responsible for training Shane and Jeff, and for signing them off as rappellers and fallers?

Yes, we’ll all feel better if we punish all of these people some more. As if they hadn’t punished themselves enough already.

And then, let’s humiliate them some more by publishing their punishments as a proclamation and warning to everyone else to BE PERFECT, OR YOU TOO WILL BE PUNISHED!

Do you not see how flawed this line of reasoning is?

(more)

(Here's the rest of this.)
EXCELLENTLY written. Ab.

Thank you for getting back to me with the contact info for
possible photos of my dad; it means a lot to me.

Thank you,
Bobbi

Yer welcome, Bobbi. It's great to have "people in the know" reading. Fine community. Ab.

Tri-Data Study Phase 3, Chapter 4 Page 4-32 to 4-34 Starting With "Agency Administrators"

Agency administrator should not be confused with a fire administrator or fire manager. Under the current system, the Agency Administrators are taking the lead on fire program oversight..... Under a new classification series, this burden could be alleviated by having fire program administrators (Regional Fire Directors, Forest FMO's, District FMO's, etc...) have oversight at incidents with the Agency Administrators having oversight at Program Level.

THE CITATION FROM OSHA
Citation 1 Item 3 Type of Violation: Serious
29 CFR 1960.57: The Agency did not provide training to safety and health inspectors with respect to identifying and evaluating hazards and suggesting general abatement procedures.
(a) Training provided to District Rangers who conduct supplemental safety and health inspections on Type 3,4, and 5 fires was not sufficient to enable them to adequately identify, evaluate, and suggest abatement related to complex wildland fire safety.
ABATEMENT NOTE: Among other methods, one feasible and acceptable abatement method to correct this hazard is to ensure inspectors receive specialized safety training commensurate with the level of incident complexity, such as the qualifications necessary for a Safety Officer Type 1, Type 2, or 3. Also, ensure that these inspectors are thoroughly evaluated to ensure maximum competency.

THE AGENCY VERSION OF THE FIX OR ABATEMENT
Citation 1 Item 3 ABATED
Region 4 Abatement Action
The Regional Forester has directed that Intermountain Region District Rangers who conduct supplemental safety and health inspections on Type 3, 4, and 5 wildland fires will have sufficient Incident Command System training to conduct these inspections or will be accompanied by someone with these qualifications. (Encl 4)
Other Planned Action
The Forest Service will, through national policy or interim directive specify the minimum Incident Command System qualifications for Forest Supervisors and District Rangers to perform supplemental safety inspection or that must be present in person(s) with them during the inspection.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that a large part of the PROBLEM is that the fire program is run by non-firefighters (ie Foresters and Ologists) who don’t understand that they do NOT have even the training or experience that experienced PROFESSIONAL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS have now. Nor do they have the professional qualifications that are required.

Here's what I think has to happen for us to have a SAFE AND EFFECTIVE WILDLAND FIRE AGENCY:

1) Wildland firefighters and fire managers must have a unique job series that addresses their specialized knowledge, skills, and abilities.

• Firefighters must be trained from day one in the firefighting PROFESSION. There must be academy work/training with simulations and practice; classes like S-130, S-190 and fire behavior classes like Doug Campbell's Fire Signature Method; followed by or simultaneous with live fire experience gained via work on fuels reductions crews (as with the BD crews of old) and seasonal fire assignments.
• There should be ways to FIRE (as in "YOU'RE FIRED") those who do not perform or measure up.
• On the fireground, the norm should be Commander's Intent (pdf) provided to trained firefighting professionals.
• Fire professionals on the ground should be tasked with choosing appropriate and safe tactics. They should not be encumbered by the burgeoning number of checklists. Checklists can put firefighters at risk on firestorms such as the Southern California Fires of 2003.
• Train firefighters to professional standards, weed out those not up to the task and trust to professional firefighter training.

2) Natural resource managers should never be expected to provide oversight for a program in which they have limited experience or education. That doesn't make sense. Line officers (Forest Supervisors and District Rangers) should never be held accountable to a professional standard for which they have not been specifically trained and educated. The IMPLICATIONS of the current litigious trajectory is that someday soon one of our forest managers and his or her family will face criminal charges. In my estimation there is a need for a wildland firefighter professional standard (series) and professional wildland firefighters to oversee it.

3) What's good for the goose (Wildland Firefighters) is good for the gander (Natural Resource Managers)… If  Natural Resource managers insist that the IFPM standards are the way to go, then they need to be held accountable to the wildland firefighting standards also. (more)

(Here's the rest.)

KRS, go for it. You have web skills, you're very intelligent and an excellent writer. You have (I hope still have) a good sense of humor and you call it like you see it. You have reason to work on that nonfunctional system. You'd be helping others who also have trouble navigating without a map. You seem called to do it. Do it! Some of the best advocacy for change arises out of need. Some of the most excellent advocates have had to walk the walk, or in your case, WHEEL the path. We'd appreciate having someone who knows the system inside and out and can tell us who to pigpile on or, better yet, where to place our fulcrum and lever. Whatever we can do, just ask. Ab.

Will do. We're glad you and Hutch are still with us. Be safe and enjoy those holidays! Ab.

That book is one of many good reads that are listed on the FireBooks page. Remember that when you enter through our Amazon portal that all purchases (books, electronics, etc) help to maintain this site. Ab.

And of course, our issue with his post really isn't with the misspellings but with his attack on wildland firefighters who read theysaid. ...And with the fact that govt employees who do not make much money (like most ICT3s) and who are abandoned by the Agency are, in fact, guilty until proven innocent -- in that mounting a defense is an EXTREME expense. Whether or not someone is innocent, they should have the means to achieve a FAIR trial. If Hackett could have been assured of a FAIR trial that didn't break his whole family, maybe firefighters and the Public would have learned a few things -- about how wildfire is fought, what constraints and piles paperwork are required of managers, and how, when things go wrong, there are things that have gone wrong at multiple levels. This Ab encourages all to kick in a few bucks to the Cramer Legal Defense/Employee Assistance Fund.

I'm personally waiting to see if anyone way up the food chain will be indicted. My guess is not, because they could better afford the lawyer that could turn the case into an ugly mess for the Agency. Ab.

Thanks Mollysboy. Direct link: www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/face200325.html Ab.

"As soon as possible after completing an investigation under section
1, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall submit
to Congress and the Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the
results of the investigation."

Those might be FOIAable documents? From my limited knowledge, a common person would have to figure that the OIG report was finished well before a Grand Jury was summoned and the US DoJ getting involved.

Rogue Rivers

"Employees and supervisors are rewarded for aggressively fighting fires and taking serious risks," the OSHA report says. "Firefighters are often provided 'hero' status for their exposure to hazardous working conditions. The 'can-do' culture throughout the fire fighting ranks is likely to be a very significant contributor to these unfortunate incidents. There still appears to be no effective incentives for safe behavior..."

The OSHA report also says firefighters are rewarded financially when actively working a fireline, citing factors like overtime, hazard pay and per diem money, which could make them more hesitant to back off from a potentially dangerous situation. Investigators also found a tendency for regular Forest Service crews to criticize private contract crews for being too willing to withdraw from a perceived dangerous situation."

I have not been able to find the report on-line and am making a FOIA request today to OSHA for its release.

vfd cap'n

I'm sure you've seen this response that Bosworth made to the OSHA citations. You probably could call Hockett's office and ask the questions you have. A FOIA may not be necessary. Ab. www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/investigations/cramer/Official_OSHA_Response.pdf

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for putting together that great calendar! Thanks photographers for allowing your photos to be used.

My calendars came late yesterday and 'bout blew off my sox. Big flames, with an occasional human figure, driptorch, FS or CDF rig. Just fantastic!!! FIRE, FIRE FIRE. Definitely has that interagency "family of firefighters" feel, but mostly the BIG FLAMES. Great nightfiring photo from the Prairie Band of the Potawatomi Nation and fantastic to see photos from so many friends. It is a celebration of wildland firefighting. (In a few years, an EBay collector's item??!!)

Ab, I love it how the month pages of the calendar have the same "flames" background like here on the webpage and that the Month, Year, and Days of the week are in the "flaming" font of our wildlandfire.com home page. (Ab, you should make a link so people can see how that looks.) Way cool!!! Good artistic eye on that stuff, Dude. If I haven't told you lately, I just love what you do and have done for wildland firefighters! You Rock!

Everyone, you should get your orders in. I'm taking some to my haircutter who is a CDF wife, and some over to Humboldt State to a few of the faculty who are going to be teaching some of the 401 series classes. Man, some of the fire students will snap these puppies up if they see them before taking off for vacation! Might have to head over to the SO too. Put in a group order and save on cost and postage.

If you've never bought anything online, have at it. It's easy but I kinda stumbled along with my insecurities hanging out because I've never bought anything except from Amazon. You really can't make a mistake. It's a two step process. You order and then pay either through PayPal or by mailing in your check. Either PayPal confirms that you've paid or Ab's program sends you the wlf address to send the check to. It also tells you when your order is received, when it's paid for and when it's shipped. (The Abs are good at walking people who don't know how to do it through the process if absolutely necessary.)

Anyone else got theirs yet?

Mellie

How the calendar page looks. Ditto on thanks to Original Ab. Order yours. Ab.

It is nice that people post links to the report for those that might not have seen it. There are some facts in it.

One thing everyone might need to think about before they believe everything that they read. Are we sure we have everything we need in the report? I think we should question anytime an agency investigates itself.

Not to much in the report about how agency polices or procedures might have contributed to the fatalities. I guess it is easier to place all the blame on one person.

JB

Joel Holtrop, I think. Ab.

Not comparing apples and oranges, just firefighting jobs. Which are theoretically the same in or out of agencies.

My primary point is that the new EMERGENCY firefighter pay scale shows a continuing increase in respect for the ICT3 position that we have not had in the past. {For instance; Last years USFS deluxe training refresher for ICT3s- which I heartily concur with also showed more concern}.

I agree with this trend.

However, picture a court case where a Type III fire has Division Supervisors working for the ICT3. Division Supervisor is a position that is above the ICT3 on the training/experience regimen. This is a flaw in our organizational structure that we have paid for in the past and may well pay for again. My contention is that ICT3 is a more difficult job by its nature than DIVS and that should be reflected in not just AD pay but also training, certification and experience.

Side Bar: Usually the best fallers on fires are from the logging industry. These guys are disappearing and I was voicing a concern that with a big pay cut that could get worse.

Fuels Guy

1. Attrition. Yep, the old guys are leaving.
2. "Club Team". There are lots of developing firefighters out there who
   aren't being utilized and developed. The teams have become insular and
   inbred. Included in this is the Quals system that has codified repetitive
   minutia, taking years to get the right assignments.
3. Possibly the biggest factor, all agencies put teams on extended attack
   fires leaving the folks who contained the fire, more often than not, on the
   outside. Not much management growth there. How many fires do you see that
   are written off in IA, a team is ordered, control efforts reduced until the
   transition? Safety Point- More operational problems happen during
   transition due to a lack of leadership and direction.

Teams, ICS, and Quals have taken on a life of their own. Our firefighting
now mimics the Army in a massive support structure for those on the line
rather than a Marine-like structure with a higher percentage of folks up
front. Teams are needed to manage the infrastructure of ICS. ICS has
broken everything down into small pieces like the military (see a MAFFS
operation; 150 personnel to support 4-5 aircraft) and few seem inclined, or
"authorized" to do more than their one small function.

Past posts have debated loss of the Sector Boss and its relationship to ICS.
The Sector Boss was often used to train inexperienced supervisors under the
supervision of the Division Boss. There is still a need for a subaltern
type position under a Division Supervisor to allow lesser experienced crew
leaders a chance to stretch themselves. Many of us have broken our
divisions into smaller pieces and given a crew leader resources and
opportunity to supervise. ICS is supposed to be flexible, is it being used
correctly? When a fire, or portions of it, are contained the experienced
personnel need to "let it go" and be able to push the lesser experienced
into developmental situations. It is not the same with a "trainee" tag in
front of your name, the employee needs the responsibility to grow.

This diatribe got past the question! I guess I'll fall back on Pogo's
observation; "We have met the enemy, he is us". The wildland agencies have
built a system that is slow to develop leaders. Oversight agencies and the
courts have reinforced the system, through our own failures, so that the
developmental wheel is nearly halted. Who responds when there is no one
with the correct hole punched in their card?

As we oldsters hit the street the new generation will fill the gaps. It just
may not look the same as when we were getting a lot of OJT rather than
codified training. Eventually there will be individuals to take the challenge
and accept the responsibility of becoming the new leaders. There will be
fires and firefighters, I have faith in that.

J.Watt

That's in Auburn, WA. I added it. Ab.

I am concerned that the release of information surrounding the troubling
circumstances associated with Alan Hackett’s pretrial diversion agreement
with DOJ will result in a strong reaction from the fire community. Unless
you have been closely involved in the Cramer Fire, this outcome might be
hard to understand.

I want to stress that we have the finest cadre of fire managers and
incident commanders and firefighters in the world. Season after season,
they have shown skill in safely managing wildland fires, and I am proud to
be associated with them.

Since the passage of P.L. 107-203, we have come under increased scrutiny by
OIG and DOJ. We now know that DOJ may investigate the criminal liability
of our employees when they suspect fatalities resulted from a blatant
disregard of firefighting practices. Knowing the commitment to safety
permeates our firefighting organization, I am confident those circumstances
will be rare.

We are proud of our fire managers, IC’s and our firefighting crews. We
have and will continue to support them.

I ask you to share this message with your fire management organization.

My father used to work for CDF at the Monte Vista station in California I was wondering if they still have any of his pictures in the dispatch office of him while he was fighting fires? He was the Heavy Equipment Operator his name was Kenny Tyrrel he worked there for years.

MG

Since I wrote some of the passages in question (three years ago), the wildland fire community has made some progress in the teaching of situational awareness and tactical decision-making. The L-180 unit that is now a part of the S-130 course is excellent -- provided the instructor is a good one; the same goes for the more advanced L-280. These courses are big steps in the right direction. I've taught the L-180 twice now, and I believe it resonated with students. But of course, we also have to practice it in the field. Our 2005 Minnesota DNR annual wildfire safety refresher will be based on the L-180, so that we can deliver its message and techniques to all our firefighters, including the grizzled old vets, some of whom learned these practices on their own via long, hard experience. Some of our good ICT4s and ICT3s probably aren't even consciously aware of the effective techniques they're using.

Another positive development is the introduction of Sand Table Exercises. We recently had several of our people take a course on the development and presentation of such exercises, and we hope to implement sand tables into many of our courses, both formal and informal. Their purpose is to enhance tactical decision-making skills in a stressful, time-constrained environment, and I'm looking forward to working in the sand table venue.

And thanks for the pitch on behalf of my book.

Best,
Peter M. Leschak,
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources -- Forestry.

Thanks, Peter, and thanks to those who provided contact info. Ab.

- Jill

Some wisdom there relevant to the Cramer.
Ab encourages people to buy Peter Leschak's book Ghosts of the Fireground.

Thanks, Joe, for the clarification. Ab.

So here comes my main point. Modern accident theory holds that accidents of the Cramer type are largely organizational in nature. If personnel are not evaluated and trained properly, if critical safety positions in an organization are intentionally left unstaffed, if poorly skilled managers attempt to accomplish what is beyond their abilities, accidents will happen with greater frequency. Especially in an environment that has so many hazards. It is easy to find the proximal causes of an accident, the trick is to recognize the systemic failures that helped facilitate that accident. The blame trail can be followed all the way to the top if one looks closely enough.

And Another:

When you are grieving for a perfect lost son or daughter who has died on a wildfire, it is very hard to accept that they had a big part to play in their own fate. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY FIREFIGHTER TO MONITOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND TO SPEAK UP, REGARDLESS OF THEIR POSITION. Unfortunately, the two rappellers on the Cramer Fire helispot waited too long before reacting to the fire below them, and they paid the ultimate price.

Backburnfs:

Thinking about the US Government's disposition on the Cramer fire reminded me of a rumor I heard many years ago. Did the Chinese Government execute firefighters after the Black Dragon Fire in 1987 or is that just a urban legend? I searched for a while but could not find an answer to that question.

YES - THIS DID OCCUR.

Finally from HV:

I am a little troubled by the notion that a Helicopter Foreman would drop a couple of rappellers off on an emerging large fire incident without making sure they had adequate lookouts. They discussed safety zones, but why not lookouts? I know my foreman would never do that, even before the Cramer Fire. It seems maybe something was missing in the Rappeller's SOPs. Shouldn't LCES be discussed before deploying rappellers?

And lastly, (Krys and OWCP):

Yes. There are many horror stories out there. And there are some where things have worked smoothly. Apparently it comes down to attitude and establishing a repertoire with your medical examiner, practitioners, and the paperwork. Very few attorneys are available to take on federal disability cases. (There is just no money in it from them unless they get it from the victim.) Under FECA - Federal Employees' Compensation Act: the Department of Labor is ultimately responsible for decision making on your case; OWCP, Employment Standards Admin. - are just the program managers. Best advice is use your angst and anger to garner up concrete documentation, all the way back to original CA-1, CA-16, COP, and "primary" physician - with an executive summary of the situation - and then send it to the appropriate Legislator that deals on the "Americans with Disabilities" Program. You are covered for five key primary areas if you can no longer return to your work position held when injured. I am not going there in this post. However the key is to get organized, get synchronized, and get legislative help. These legislators work for us - you! OWCP does not do well with angry people / do it the right way - (and It is extremely hard but you must do this - ) channel your anger and grief into a focused, positive win-win scenario for both you and the people who must help you. It works much better that way and I doubt that an OWCP campaign will be effective. Department of Labor is aware of this for years. Key is adapt or you won't get adopted. I don't mean to sound crude and unfeeling but I have a friend who has been there - he got help from the folks he voted for?

We are witnessing a major change in fire disturbance management in the United States. Retiring people are not going to solve the fuels problem; rather, they are going to feel great when they get out. The paradigm has been shifting since 1994, and has now put us in the midst of historical change. The only catalyst strong enough to evoke major changes in SOPs is catastrophe of unseen natural dimension (look, where the political response to 9-11 put us.) And the military is looking to add 300,00 more young recruits.

(just wondering)

Check them out.
Ab.

We here at WLF are happy to announce the opening of our on-line store.

There’s just one item available for purchase so far, but it’s a fine one. We’ve collected the top 13 fire photos from over seven years of submissions to our site and reproduced them in a 12 Month 2005 Calendar. This calendar is HOT. I sold one to the person waiting behind me in line at the printers shop! He didn’t know the difference between a vegetation fire and a dump fire, but he loved the photos and had to have one.

Our top headers have changed today to sport a new “Shop-WLF” button link at the top. As a side note, we’ve also revamped our main index page to feature some of the newer areas over the last year.

Regarding the calendars, we plan on shipping on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, or more often if needed. These will make excellent gifts for any firefighter. We’re not shipping experts yet, but if you want them delivered for Christmas, you might want to order soon.

Here’s the link: https://shop.wildlandfire.com/

The Abs.

Thank you,
Joe

Thanks, Joe, I added it. 2 and 4 year fire-science schools
Readers, please look over the list and see if you have any new ones to add. Ab.

I've been reading over the Cramer Documents. It seems to me with the info presented that the biggest FAULT lies with whoever provides oversight to the whole system. It was broken and the FS didn't DEMAND it be fixed. How can the cogs be blamed when the wheel and the drive shaft and the belts are not lining up right, when the horsepower is inadequate? How can a person be threatened with jail when he seems to be doing the best he can with his training and background and WORKLOAD? If there's more to the story than is revealed in the docs, let's hear it, or did the Chief require that wording be changed on this report like he did on the thirtymile report?

We're waiting...

JG

- The US Attorney’s office has issued a press release on the resolution
of the Hackett case in the Cramer fire. Randy Hackett was terminated from
his employment with the Forest Service and he has entered into an agreement
with the US Attorney’s office that he will be on 18 months probation and
that the US Attorney’s Office could publicize the resolution, to send a
strong message to fire fighters in general. There are still civil actions
pending.

They want "to send a strong message to fire fighters in general"? I say
send the Government Attorneys a message. Support the Cramer Legal Defense
Fund with what ever you can. I have yet to see anything that shows any
crime was committed, I can understand the civil actions but not the
criminal.

God help us if this is the kind of support our employer gives.

PISSFIRWILLIE

Backburnfs

Thanks vfd cap'n for providing that.
To everyone who came to chat last night, very interesting. There were some long moments of "silence" as we read report and appendices, etc, but very interesting... There's a permanent link to the CO Firecamp Cramer site on the Documents Worth Reading page and on the Site Map. There's a link you can always find on the Classifieds  page under training. Ab.

Thanks,
OkFiremanR6

Abs,

It is "Just a Title". That is what I have heard since the time when I first started out as a Forestry Aid.
I thought I was going to be a Seasonal Firefighter! How confusing was that!
I still think it is a bunch of crap. In fact, now I think it is a Safety Hazard.

When I first had it explained to me that I was not a firefighter, it was morally defeating.
I almost quit to go and work for a real Fire Department. Then I had it explained to me that it was "Just a Title."
After all, it was obvious that the Forest Service did have the most intensive training program and standards.
The Forest Service did have the most active work load... at the time I was working at a co-op station with Riverside County CDF.
However, over the years of hearing the same thing from all levels of Management... that we are "Just Technicians",
I realize that something has been rubbing me wrong for too long.

Looking back, this Title has always seemed to be the source associated with
a decrease in self pride, a decrease in motivation, and a hurdle in the way to strive for excellence at work,.
There is a decrease in respect for the very Agency that I am employed with every syllable of the words Forestry Technician.
How can an employee listen to and revere the direction of an Agency that is soo misleading.

Look at the Liability, Training, and the Performance expectations for someone like me, a Forestry Tech. / Supervisory Fire Engine Operator.
The Title in itself reeks of Confusion.
The Agency demands clear and concise communications and yet we are employed under Titles of confusion.
I know it is "Just a Title", but it seems to me that it may be more than that.
A Title is descriptive. A Job Title is descriptive of the duties and expectations of the employed position.

So why does the Forest Service continue to describe Seasonal Firefighters as Forestry Technicians?
To me it is misleading and may have tendencies to allow some employees to let their guard down.
Perhaps since our employees are NOT Firefighters, there is not a clear and preconceived understanding of the inherent danger associated with these positions. Maybe the attitude from upper levels that these are "Just Forestry Technicians" is allowing unsuspecting employees to misjudge the severity of the situations that they will be seeing in their summers as Seasonal Firefighters.

I obviously feel that at the very least, a misclassification or poor choice of a Job Title can bring morale of a workforce down, and in turn, lower work performance levels. In this job that lack of pride, lack of enthusiasm, lack of pride can cost a person their life.
I struggle to justify the training and performance standards that I expect from my Forestry Technician / Seasonal Firefighters with the logic that it is "Just a Title".

About the 401 mandatory environmental education making safer, more efficient "Fire Managers"... If we are to send our Fire Managers to other Agencies via the Mutual Aid agreements, they should have training requirements emphasizing mandatory Fire fighting Academies to better "Understand the Environment" in the Fire World.

Old Crusty Guy

state FF

Ab, to clarify as per your request... do we all have to watch out
for facing criminal charges in the future? Do state, county, vollie,
contractors supervised by their own people not count? On the
one hand I don't want the scrutiny, on the other hand are we just in
the "throwaway" category?

Motor mouth

NorCal Tom

Cramer Legal Defense  and Employee Assistance Fund

Julie

Modoc IHC, 2004 photos

MM

I linked to the photo page. I did not download quicktime to watch the movie. You can get to the movie info by clicking on the grey area at the top of the photo page. Ab.

I thought I'd send this memorial pic to you, I saw one a while ago on the web site but it was
pretty fuzzy, maybe this one is a little better. 

Thanks,
Jill

Allan Hackett did make a SERIOUS mistake and no two ways about it.
The fact that it is not publicly known does not mean that he didn't make it.
But his mistake occurred in the context of systemic (forest) problems.

Watcher

Everything else is F-ed up, why not that too?

Going to NM

Think the 401 series looks ok from what I know about it. With one comment. You know all the officers don't make General, and all the 401 folks plus all their training wont make an IC on that alone. To be a firefighter you have to fight fire. It takes years and inhaling lots of smoke. The good ones, probably seven to twelve years on average, it's as simple as that. You have to really love it. Years ago, I had a Dep. Forest Supervisor, an exsmokejumper, assigned as one of my Sector Bosses on the LP. What I'm tryin to say, Fire Qualifications, not assigned on administrative rank, but actual demonstrated ability.

Does the court find him guilty of two helicopters just happened to be unavailable when he needed them? One for 30 hr hour check and the other for refueling. They did abort the refueling and sent that ship, but too late. Guess he should have known the 30 hour inspection was due. I supervised a Rappel Crew w/212 ship and 20 plus crew and all the gear and vehicles for two years. I think something wrong with the time estimate on how long it would take two rappellers to cut a helispot in that fuel type. The person that reconned the area was out to lunch on the time estimate. Either that, or something we don't know prevented them from completing the spot in the estimated time, or at least close to it. I could include other comments, but Misery Whip (he must be an old timer) to use that name. I hadn't heard that name used in years. Ya know, a misery whip always worked when you got to the fire, except when you forgot to check out the total saw pack and someone had taken out the the mixed-oil. That story will wait for another time, but it only has to happen one time. You will never forget after that!!

OOFG, (old, old, fire guy)

Some additional "possible" retires for 2005.

Scott Vail
Dick McCombs
George M. (SZSC)
Don Studebaker
Ron Raley
Terry Molzahn

Stay tuned "DAILY" for updates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are all of the replacements coming from with similar qualifications?

R-5

Don, Ron and John Wendt are retiring for sure. So is Pat Kitter. Ab.

The Administratively-Determined (AD) pay scale is set up for hiring
EMERGENCY firefighters and is not the pay scale for those expecting to rise
through the professional firefighter ranks.

Unless I misunderstand you, you're comparing apples and oranges.

NorCal Tom

Buck Latape (sp?)
Rich Wands
Paul Hoefner (sp?)
Mike Dondero
Rodd Richardson
Greg Greenhoe
Mike Platas (sp?)
Mike Deloos, NFP coordinator (sp?)

Mike & Jenny Heerwaggen

Anyone know what the total was last year?

sign me
Never won the spelling Bee

IMPLICATIONS

SOMETHING THAT IS IMPLIED AS A NATURAL CONSEQUENCE OF SOMETHING ELSE.

Keeping abreast of the reports, articles, and comments generated by the Cramer fatality incident gives rise to many worrisome thoughts.

The accountability issue for fire managers has become a much more important consideration for them than in the past. How did we get to the point that an Incident Commander and the others in the organization are vulnerable to criminal prosecution for errors in judgment?

The shift in managements thinking from what was the norm up until the Cramer incident is far reaching. Some folks thought it short sighted to blame the South Canyon deaths on the burn victims. They were the ones who suffered when the 10’s and 18’s were compromised. The Incident Commander and local management personnel were not held accountable.

Now there has been a change in the level of accountability.
Didn’t anyone think of the implications of changing the accountability level? Shouldn’t the implications of change be thought out before the change is made?

Read the rest of this excellent article here:  Implications  Original Ab.

Just so's your contacts could view the message in context and to avoid clogging mailboxes, you could send this link instead: http://www.wildlandfire.com/theysaid.htm#ahme  Then they'll be at the right place to share their own views with us.  And I agree, Miserywhip's post was one of the finest I've seen here.  Original Ab.

SO

That ranger is at risk for jail time as are all line officers under the NEW 
Forest Service system. Pretty soon if this system of litigation continues, 
rangers won't step up to serve any more readily than ICs. We're making 
history in so many ways.

CJ

Excellent idea. Following 30mile, a legal beagle came and spoke to the R5 Division Chiefs about process and policy and CYA. It was very informative. What I hear you asking for is bigger and more in depth than that. When you don't know the truth, you imagine the worst. Ab.

Wow, not sure where to start, but I'll make it short and sweet.

The FWFSA is not Casey and a few of his friends, but it is the

Crewmembers / Firefighters
Senior Crewmembers
Squad Bosses
Assistant Fire Engine Operators
Fire Engine Operators
Hotshot / Engine / Helishot / Patrol / Helitack Captains
Superintendents
Battalion Chiefs
Division Chiefs
Deputy Forest Fire Management Officers
Forest Fire Management Officers

They are all working towards common goals: 
To PROMOTE the health, safety and welfare of all wildland firefighters.
To SUPPORT beneficial and resist detrimental firefighter legislation.
To ENCOURAGE the highest standards of firefighter performance and conduct.
To PROTECT the nations resources and render the most effective services possible to
the people of the United States of America.

So either join the FWFSA, or form your own association.

SRJS