"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
January, 2005
Home of the Wildland
FireFighter
| DATE |
|
| 1/31 |
LH & JR:
With all due respect, the analogy about the Cramer
Tragedy and surgery malpractice is both bold and
ridiculous.
Your analogy goes: "While during your son's surgery,
mistakes were made by the doctor entrusted with your
son's life which led to his death. Would you not hold
the doctor accountable?"...Sure!
Any reasonable person would agree with you there...
BUT when comparing this "surgery scenario" to the
Cramer Tragedy, the "patient" would have to be a
trained medical professional briefed on the foregoing
procedure before operating on himself.
As far as relying on the Forest Service's "official"
report, that would be like relying on the doctor's
insurance company's "official" report in defense of
his malpractice.
"Cut and dry" is only 20/20 in the eyes of the
omnipotent.
M McM |
| 1/31 |
Posting from the new location. WU-HOOOOO!
Thanks Original Ab. Was it a rush?
Ab. |
| 1/31 |
Ab, I heard a good one last night.
"Site changes are like changing ropes mid rappel."
Hope you're having fun.
Lurker.
LCES, as vfd capt said. They're in place. Checklists, dunno on
that one. Original Ab keeps it all in his head so his hands are free to
catch that rope. Ab. |
| 1/31 |
MiseryWhip.
What he said.
I agree. Human Factors.
Look at the Cramer helispot picture someone sent in. Imagine you're a
couple of young firefighters, good friends, just back home among your
mountains from an assignment in the flat and arid SW. Human factors?
Hell yeah! Were they in transition back to a home location, enjoying
life, doing the job of clearing a helispot using their skills, working
with a best friend? Were they primed for bad fire behavior? Mopup crews
that have been burned over haven't been. J&S probably thought there
was a lookout. Sometimes you you can be thinking my bases are covered
and for whatever the reason they are not.
I try to always be safe, follow the 10 and 13. LCES. I've also known
the great feeling I get when I've been away and I'm finally right back
where I should be doing what I really like. What happened from their
perspective we'll never know. There have been times I let down my guard
if I don't notice something. How do you get enough experience to stay SA
enough?
LCES
LC |
| 1/31 |
Hi All,
I have attempted to make this point several times, but feel that I have
been un-clear about it. In recent posts, people have been saying that we
must follow the 10 and 18 all the time. The culture of "We don't
bend them, we don't break them."
The problem is that anytime something happens, we hold up the 10 and 18
and say "Ahh Ha! Numbers 2, 5, 7, etc, etc, were broken on this
incident." This is very easy to do, and seems to be a standard we
can measure up to....except there is a flaw in the model.
Take the following scenario. A crew is underslinging line. Fire behavior
is minimal, but expected to increase in the afternoon. Two lookouts are
posted from your crew, and a squad boss from another IHC that you trust
is posted across the drainage acting as another set of eyes. You also
have rovers looking for roll-out and spots. Based on your knowledge of
fire behavior and your crew, you have identified and timed escape routes
and safety zones.
In the afternoon, an undetected spot flares up and makes a run at your
crew. Murphy's law dictates that your lookouts can't see exactly what is
happening, and the radio of the squad boss across the way chooses this
time to die--or else he is off taking a crap. The thick smoke blinds
your crewmembers, they loose the escape rout, and are burned over.
You, in good faith, tried to mitigate the circumstances, to meet the 10
and 18. An investigation would find, however, that your lookouts were
posted incorrectly, that communications for whatever reason with the
lookout across the way failed, escape routes were too long, etc, etc.
The intent was to follow the orders. The attempt was made to follow the
orders. The findings are that you broke the orders.
This is the failure in using "We don't bend them, we don't break
them" as a method of judgment. Things in this business sometimes go
wrong, and people get hurt. We should look into why this happens, and
how it happens. We should all also realize that most of us out there are
doing our best and trying to adhere to the 10 and 18, and to mitigate
circumstances that are dangerous.
The reality of it is that whenever something goes wrong, for whatever
reason, the 10 and 18 HAVE BEEN BROKEN, regardless of intent or attempt
for mitigation. Judging a person solely because of this doesn't fix the
problems. It just fixes the blame.
Class C Sagebrush Faller |
| 1/31 |
Ab,
Gook luck on the server conversion. Hope you have LCES and all your
other safety checklists in place.
GGFire, thanks for giving me something to do on a Sunday afternoon. We
have added the FAA "Swiss cheese" model report to the CO Firecamp website. Our philosophy is if a document is really worth
reading, it's worth making readable.
Our version is much easier to navigate. The original PDF version prints
to about a type 8 font, and the general formatting is poor.
Anyway, we hope this adds to the fire community's understanding of the
theory.
vfd cap'n |
| 1/31 |
LH+JR,
There is a world of difference in the examples of the surgeon who is
actually holding the knife and an IC who is making decisions that other
individuals are going to carry out based on their experience and
training.
An IC can plan all the tactics and strategies they want but it is the
firefighters on the line who must implement those tactics and
strategies.
We don’t have to accept an assignment that we feel is unsafe. It is
our responsibility to ensure that our lookouts and escape routes are in
place and our safety zones are accessible. It is our responsibility to
base our actions on past, current and expected fire behavior.
My hope is that we will all follow the 10+18, LCES and things will
always work out the way we plan. Reality is that we are going to keep
loosing our friends because we cannot make the fire ground environment
100% safe. A tree is going to fall, a rock roll or a vehicle or aircraft
is going to crash. Another fire will make a run at other firefighters
who are not prepared for the worst case scenario. When that happens we
will again, be hanging our heads and grieving over lost firefighters.
Looking for ways to lower the risk and exposure to hazards in the fire
environment is what we should be doing when investigating a tragedy such
as the Cramer fire. I hate it when we get hurt or die doing our job.
Bureaucrats and lawyers are not the answer to firefighter safety.
Firefighters are. The only thing that has been accomplished by the
Cramer investigation is a large reduction in the number of IC’s who
are willing to take on the responsibility of managing a fire.
There is no way for me to convince you that the Government is wrong in
this case because you obviously have your minds made up that someone had
to be a scapegoat in this tragedy. I can only state my convictions and
do my best to keep myself and those around me safe.
Backburnfs |
| 1/30 |
The Jobs
page and Series
0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series
0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series
0401 ("professional" Biologist) listings are updated.
NOTICE: Wildlandfire.com is
upgrading our Internet provider services! We have purchased and
are moving to a dedicated server, starting tomorrow, Monday, January 31.
If you aren't sure what a dedicated server is, don't worry about
it. What it means to us is that we now have a mirrored 40
gigs of hard drive space and 100 gigs of bandwidth to play with.
Some of our earlier ideas of expansion have been limited by one or both
of the preceding parameters. Trust me when I say that we will test
our new limits to bring you the fastest, most up to date, wildland fire
information available!
During the move our email should be unaffected. We've updated the
Jobs related pages and won't update them again until possibly Wed, Feb
2, by which time we expect the move will be complete, though it could be
earlier.
The Chat and News pages will not be down as they're located
on our alternate server and will remain there until we are able to move
the entire wlf2 site to the new server.
Some readers, depending on their location may experience
occasional browser errors over the next few days. We'd like to
think this new move will allow us to keep growing through the next 8
years without change, but we doubt it as we know how fast technology
changes. Thanks to all of you and especially those who have
supported our site from the beginning, at which time we were limited to
5MB of space, and bandwidth wasn't an issue.
We appreciate your patience.
Original Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Ab,
Many interesting posts lately on They Said. One email that caught my eye
this week referred to a Region 1 I-300 course (ICT3 prerequisite) that
was extending the application deadline because only seven people had
signed up. I wonder if other regions are having trouble finding people
who want to be Type 3 ICs. Might be a sign of future problems.
The Missoulian has an interesting article today on the unusually warm
and dry winter we have been experiencing. According to the US Natural
Resources Conservation Service, we are approaching an all-time record
low snowpack in our region. The article states “things are shaping up
comparable to 1988 and 2001, both low-snow years that preceded summers
filled with wildfires”. Here’s the link:
www.missoulian.com/articles/2005/01/30/mtracker/news/89snowpack.txt
I want to weigh in on a subject that has been bothering me for some
time. For many years, the fed wildland fire agencies have recognized
that understanding fire behavior is important to firefighter safety. In
recent years, we have spent literally millions of dollars to set up and
maintain RAWS stations, train fire behavior analysts, provide fire
weather forecasts, etc. Fire behavior analysis has become an important
firefighter safety tool.
My question is; why haven’t we dedicated a similar amount of effort to
improve our understanding of human behavior? Whenever someone makes a
decision to place firefighters in the proximity of a wildland fire,
human decisions come into play. Human behavior is where the rubber meets
the road.
I have a short story that I think helps illustrate the problems we face
in this area. In 1995, I was invited to make a presentation at a
regional safety officer workshop in R6. The stated intent of the
workshop was to choose from among a number of different safety
presentations, and to champion a small number of important safety topics
from the workshop with fire management.
While waiting to make my own presentation, I was privileged to hear Dr.
Curt Braun, a behavioral scientist (and former hotshot) from the
University of Idaho, speak on the subjects of fatigue, decisionmaking
watchouts, human information processing limitations, and other human
factors issues. I was blown away! This was the first time in my career
that I had heard someone address things like perceptual narrowing that I
had been experiencing for years but didn’t quite know how to
articulate. I felt certain that this room full of safety officers would
recognize that we were hearing something important and revolutionary.
I was wrong. At the end of the workshop, Dr. Braun’s presentation was
ranked among the bottom of important topics. Even worse, the number one
suggestion from the safety officers was to take the workshop’s “Passion
for Safety” theme and turn it into another inane acronym (P is for Put
safety first, A is for Always think about safety, etc ad nauseum). I
left feeling extremely puzzled and disappointed that this group of
wildland fire safety professionals failed to understand something that
seemed very clear and important to me. I began reading everything I
could get my hands on that pertained to the subject of human factors.
I am sorry to say that we are not much better off in this area than we
were ten years ago. Although there have been some improvements in our
understanding of human factors issues, we are still dealing with a
management structure that is largely clueless about human factors. I
frequently deal with mid and senior level fire and aviation managers who
don’t understand, or have any desire to learn about, human factors.
Therein lays the problem.
There are many things about human factors that are contradictory to what
most people expect. For instance, if you do not understand that human
beings are not computers and are prone to information processing
limitations, you might think that fire supervisors are being willfully
careless when they make errors in judgment, like in AC’s post today.
This is a common misconception that I frequently encounter when dealing
with fire and aviation managers.
Yet these same managers who are largely ignorant about human factors
make important decisions every day about budgets, organizational
structures, training, and other issues that disregard what behavioral
scientists know to be true. Quite often, smart people like Ted Putnam
and Tony Kern are marginalized and driven from the Forest Service
because of their “radical” ideas about human factors.
Folks, human factors are real, and if we are ever going to reduce
wildland fire fatalities, we need to do WAY better in this area. As an
example, over the past twenty years, the airline industry has
drastically reduced the number of human factors accidents by adopting
procedures and training that embrace and understand human limitations.
Crew Resource Management has been adopted by airlines around the world,
and the present low commercial accident rate is directly attributable to
this truly revolutionary program.
I think the biggest problem we face in fire and aviation management
today is this; how do you convince managers who don’t have a very good
understanding of human factors, and don’t have any desire to learn
about it, that this is the missing link in firefighter safety that we
have been searching for all these years?
The information is out there, all we have to do is seek it out. I still
feel that a Dryden Report style investigation of wildland firefighting
is what it will take to get us over the hump. We need to place the same
emphasis on human behavior that we presently give to fire behavior.
Misery Whip |
| 1/30 |
Ab,
I am looking for a little help with a Position Task Book question.
The certification committee on my unit is in the process of reviewing a
"completed" task book and I am a little concerned about how
all of the boxes were checked as complete.
If an employee has an open task book for a certain position (say HECM
(T) ) and they travel to and from an incident in another capacity (FFT2
for example), is it appropriate to have the mob and demob tasks in the
HECM (T) PTB signed as completed?
I personally feel that this should not be accepted and that the trainee
should go through the process in the appropriate position. Some feel
that I am splitting hairs and being to critical.
It seems as if the 310-1 is open for quite a bit of interpretation and I
am hoping that someone with some experience in this area is willing to
provide me with what is appropriate and if there could be potential
future dilemmas from what I consider to be a loophole certification.
Ab thanks again for the great site.
Palos
TNSP (T) |
| 1/30 |
Backburnfs,
You stated "My son just had surgery on his shoulder that lasted
about 3 hours and the bill was over $14,000.00." Here is something
to think about..........
While during your son's surgery, mistakes were made by the doctor
entrusted with your son's life which led to his death. Would you not
hold the doctor accountable? Of course you would because that was his
job, to perform a safe surgery on your son's shoulder.
The Cramer Fire incident was no different than this scenario. It was the
jobs of the Forest Service Officials to make the correct decisions
regarding the safety of Shane and Jeff, along with all of the other
firefighters lives. This is what the government pays these officials to
do. So if they are not doing there job correctly why should the
government back them up?
It is very cut and dry and you have no argument.
Read the official Forrest Service Report or just pick up the Idaho
Statesman and then convince me that the government should in any way
back these people who made such tragic mistakes.
LH & JR |
| 1/30 |
I don't mean to rehash the Cramer Incident and its the last thing I
want to do today to bring this up but I feel I need to respond to
Rhino's post and dispel some myths once again:
Rhino states: "Cramer is a prime example where a dysfunctional
forest placed an individual in a position where he tried to do his best
and became overwhelmed."
This statement is erroneous and it is evident to anyone that reads the
investigative report (final or preliminary findings), has fought
wildfire in any initial attack or single resource capacity or knew Allen
or Heath.
Ultimately, the final call of safety resides with the firefighter on the
ground. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen mistakes made
on the ground where a firefighter violates or ignores the 10 and 18 and
then is surprised when the conditions become adverse. There is no excuse
for a bad judgment call and while the finding might find the IC and
others on the 'forest' to blame, I know that the rappellers had allowed
themselves to become complacent and rely on air support as a potential
escape route. This is inexcusable and unfortunately the paid for it with
their lives.
Rhino is unwilling to admit or understand that rappellers have a window
out an aircraft just like the spotter does. The pilot circles the fire
and the proposed rappel spot more than once so that not only the spotter
but also the rappellers get a good look at it. They have the ability to
refuse an assignment based on appearance and yes, Ive seen it actually
happen. They have situational awareness on the ground and have training
drilled into them to assess the changing conditions.
Although Rhino mentions safety is the responsibility of every
firefighter why condemn only the forest? The post tries to sound
unbiased but is clearly black and white. Doing your best is using
Situational Awareness, observing the 10 and 18 and refusing an
assignment that doesnt look or feel right....none of these were done.
AC |
| 1/30 |
Thanks for telling me about Snookie, sagebrush faller.
NorCal Tom or someone who knows, what's the
National Leadership Team? Firefighter leaders for
the nation?
Maybe that's not anything a groundpounder needs
to know?
Fire Pup
Try a google of "National Leadership Team" "Forest
Service". Cut and paste, leave the quotes in. Ab. |
| 1/30 |
Good Morning to you all.
I'm sitting at my computer this morning, sun shining in, family around,
appreciating that I live in a democratic country and work with a bunch
of fire folks from across the US and around the world.
Thanks for your contributions. We live in a time of change and I
am optimistic.
Ab. |
| 1/29 |
Any death that happens during any fire is horrible to read or learn
about yet when it happens to a fellow firefighter it is doubly
disheartening. Safety is the number one priority of all firefighters. As
wildland firefighters we face a different set of hazards than our
brothers entering structures yet again 99% of all our hazards have been
well documented, discussed and trained upon. Sometimes things happen and
we need to learn from that situation. Yes we need to investigate so that
we can use the produced report to learn what circumstances lead up to
the critical situation -taking place. If there is a glaring mistake
where multiple 10 fire orders or 13 (18) situations were violated then
it becomes obvious that this individual (or others) need additional
training.
The Forest Service has made an investment in each individual and has
taught and trained them to recognize 10 orders that when violated can or
will lead to death, as well as 13 situations that when violated also
have the ability to harm firefighters. As a firefighter moves up their
career forward, each step is blessed at a higher level and they are
supported to do the additional duties bestowed upon them, to the best of
their ability and training. None of us who has been given the
responsibility to supervise others on any fire line have accepted that
action nonchalantly. This can be driven home if any of us have responded
to an incident where a death has occurred. One knows that you would
never wish that to happen during your watch.
Cramer is a prime example where a dysfunctional forest placed an
individual in a position where he tried to do his best and became
overwhelmed. It may have been best for this IC to insist upon a change
of command rather than to continue. Yet it would have been far wiser for
this dysfunctional forest to make that decision for him. Those making
the decision to construct the rappeller helispot are accountable. The
rappel spotter who can see the fire behavior is also accountable.
Safety is still the primary function of each and every firefighter. It
is a must for those who will oversee the operations of others on any
fire line. It must be constantly reviewed and it never hurts to ask
those doing the job if they feel safe. After all, asking is
communicating which is one of the 10 orders.
Rhino |
| 1/29 |
Hello Ab,
I'm an infrequent visitor and lurker. I tend to come by every once in
awhile and read entire threads. Like all of us, I've been thinking about
the Cramer incident and its aftermath a lot lately. So after following
the conversation, both on and off line, I want to join into that
discussion. My observations:
1) The lessons of Cramer will go unlearned - obscured and overshadowed
by the controversy over disciplinary actions. That is really
unfortunate!
2) While I understand why people close to the incident would want one, a
"Cramer-free" week dishonors firefighters Heath and Allen. If
the fire community does not talk about, learn from, and make changes
because of what happened to them, their deaths were pointless. How can
the Forest Service be a "error resistant", "learning
organization" when there are still things that people can't, won't
or don't talk about.
3) But are we talking about the right stuff? Everybody is talking about
the disciplinary actions, liability (criminal and otherwise), the
diversion agreement, etc.. I would like to semi-respectfully suggest
that, until the OIG report is public knowledge, we don't really know
what we're talking about. On one hand, I think people need to back-off
until they have some facts - ones they did not get from a short article
in the Idaho Statesman or the rumor mill. On the other hand, I wonder
why the Forest Service can't figure out that, by keeping their employees
in the dark, they have succeeded only in creating a climate of fear and
loathing in the agency that has turned really destructive.
4) There are people using this site who have direct knowledge of the
Cramer incident. However, most of us really only know what we can learn
by reading the publicly available documents. Those documents paint a
horrifying picture of dysfunction with error caused at every level of
the organization, top to bottom - a tragedy of errors piled on errors.
5) I have heard people say that Heath and Allen were third year (!)
firefighters, that they should have recognized the danger they were in,
and refused the risk. What a load of %$#@. You can only refuse risk that
you can recognize, and a typical third year firefighter simply does not
have the experience or the training necessary to recognize risk in a
wide variety of situations, particularly when the strategy reflects a
fundamental lack of situation awareness by most people on the incident.
6) Lately I've seen several people chattering about James Reason's Human
Factors Analysis Classification System (HFACS) or the "Swiss Cheese
Model." I'd suggest, again with all due respect, that some of these
folks need to go back and re-read their Reason.
Sign me,
GGFire
Hi GGFire. Will the OIG report ever be public knowledge?
The legal ramifications of Cramer and the impact upon ICs might be
considered an "incident within an incident", no?
It's my understanding that it is the Forest Service legal beagles
who are the ones keeping people in the dark. I think it's Office of
General Counsel. See, it's hard to know who specifically applies the
white out, kind'a like obfuscate the source. The blame generally gets
laid on the "Forest Service" which implies the "fire
managers" at the upper echelons but really, it's the lawyers.
Readers, the link to the shorter HFACS article by Shappell &
Wiegmann is available in -Hugh Carson's commentary- under Docs
Worth Reading. The next doc worth reading in the list is the USFS
Accident Investigation Guide (3400 K pdf) which I'm told contains
aspects of the Swiss Cheese Model.
Ab. |
| 1/29 |
There are some new quotes up on the "Fire
Quotes to Live By" page. Many are mentioned in training or used in
powerpoints. Others are just downright funny. If you have any to add,
send 'em in. The latest bunch are by Will Rogers who likely would have
been on a fire team if they'd had such a thing in his day. They were
sent in by Larry I. Ab. |
| 1/29 |
JD,
Sorry I came off sounding so harsh on the subject and I hope you didn't
take my ranting as an attack on your sentiments. I agree that a new
subject is definitely needed now as we head into another season. I am
tired of dealing with this issue too. Therefore, I won't mention it
again in this reply.
Sounds like you and I agree on many things, though I have a few more
years in the game than you, and the closest call I ever had was in that
great big burn scar to the west of the Cramer Incident, on the Fountain
Cr. fire in 1985, doing the first extended attack actions with a couple
of other shot crews.We definitely don't do things the way we used to
in this game, and some aspects of the old fire scene I miss. Some things
I don't. The apprentice program was a great deal until it was viewed as
an urban diversity program for integrating non firefighters into a harsh
line of employment. Can't quite agree with you on the jumper program
either because most of the Type I resources have the same flexibility
with what they can do. As for incompetent managers two things happen.
They realize their shortcomings and learn from the folks they can learn
from or the go down in a blaze of upward mobility glory and end up in a
regional office somewhere away from the real fire game.
But I'll agree with you that there is not enough positive said about
the agencies that put the wet stuff on the red stuff. For the potential
number of fatalities we could have for the line of employment we pursue
the percentages could be much greater, especially in super fire years
where everyone with a red card is running and gunning all summer long(
Ah! to be back in those days again.)
Sorry for your loss. We all lost a bit of freedom and political
innocence on that hillside.
Joeboy |
| 1/29 |
Theysaid
Fire Terms, Okay Ab, here's another:
Klingon - Anyone with a higher rank than the speaker, but generally a
battalion Chief and above.
Evan |
| 1/29 |
KCMO wrote about the need for liability insurance and some research he
or
she had done. I wonder if KCMO or anyone else on the list can provide a
list of good insurance companies. I'm sure many in this community would
benefit.
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
Fish |
| 1/28 |
I've been re-reading the investigation reports for South Canyon, Cramer,
Thirtymile, Point...... and came up with this:
The ten standard orders remain our "go", "no-go" guidelines. I see good
comments identifying situations that might occur where a crew was in
compliance, but situations evolve and they are for a period, out of
compliance. ie. We can't follow all the rules all the time. (Doesn't
mean we shouldn't strive for compliance).
So, Here's what can happen:
The fire doesn't blow up, and you can have broken all the rules without
consequence. or:
The fire makes a sudden shift, and the "Ten" are your windows of
opportunity for getting out unharmed. Close one window, and you've still
got a 90% chance of making it.
But read the tragic reports, and you'll find the common thread that a
majority (in some cases all) of the Ten were broken........ and all
windows of escape were nailed shut.
I'm in the same boat as nearly everyone who reads this site. Yes, I've
been in violation of the Ten many times, but I'm more than ever
committed to doing my best to follow them. Every one of them. Every
time.
Old Fire Guy |
| 1/28 |
I hope everyone can get by the Foundation to see those shirts and tell
some stories. Rowdy and all, excellent job. Makes me proud of the fire
organization I work for and the people I work with! The safe miles on
those shirts, now there's something to be proud of. The leadership
demonstrated by those wearing the shirts, I'm glad to know them. The
humor, the dirt, the honest sweat. I could go on. On another track,
about Lobotomy's post:
It suggests 3 systemic holes higher up in the Swiss cheese brick on this
current IC- Type III =SNAFU.
How could OIG know if "applicable regulations, policies and
procedures are appropriate"? They're not professional wildland
firefighters. They have no experience. How would they be able to
figure out if checklists or any procedures make us safer? How
would they know that checklists and paperwork are an issue? Did they
address those issues in their review? Where is their investigation
and report? Are they keeping it a secret?
How would the Fireline Leadership Council know what didn't or did
work concerning safety => to be able to tell OIG what would work or
what might be broken? Unless they've been out on the line recently
with too many rules and checklists when a number of goblers were
taking off? Unless they listened to groundpounders and seriously
considered what they were being told about not being able to do
it all and be safe? They might have some faded mental "slide" (RPD)
in the back of their head someplace, but it's unlikely front and
center between the eyes haunting their waking moments like it was
after the CA fires of 2003 for those fighting them while juggling
checklists.
Congress is a third hole. Congressionals want to feel all
goodiegood about firefighters. Well sirs/madams, they can't duck out
of responsibility for legislating too many regulations by whining
that it wasn't their intent: to have OIG go after managers;
they wanted them to go after the Forest Service. Why didn't they
communicate their intent clearly? Their "slides" include knowledge of
what OIG does. OIG recommends prosecution of whoever it can.
Especially vulnerable are those without the bucks to fight back.
=>We all loose. Where was Congressional leadership?? Lost SA?
Leadership, we need some leadership. Mistakes in collective judgment
have us in a bad bind.
Mistakes= I've made them. Recognizing mistakes and owning them is what
gets me to the right choice. Mistakes=> better choices, but only if you
act.
Acting on the right choice; now that takes courage and leadership.
Which group is going to step up with the leadership first? First good
step would be communicating their intent. Next good step would be
taking some action. Need leadership training? Come on down. Some
of the best leadership trainers I know belong to those shirts hanging on
the wall. Professionals, yes, some of the best in my book.
NorCal Tom |
| 1/28 |
Photo needed: Someone has contacted me seeking a photo for a
school presentation next week. They need one of a fire burning in an
aspen stand. Anyone got one of those? If so, could you please send it
asap?
Thanks. Ab. |
| 1/28 |
Ab, I got on and read that Washington post article: Civil Service
System on Way Out at DHS. Interesting reading geeps. Thanks Bob for the
logon solution.
I found it interesting they plan to throw out the GS rating system.
It could help increase FF retention if it worked in the best possible
way.
Under the new plan, employees will be grouped into eight to 12
clusters based on occupation. Salary ranges will be based, in part,
on geographic location and annual market surveys by a new
compensation committee of what similar employees earn in the private
sector and other government entities. Within each occupational
cluster, workers will be assigned to one of four salary ranges, or
"pay bands," based on their skill level and experience.
The article goes on to say that raises or promotions will depend on
performance ratings from supervisors. Hmmmm, what if your supervisor
doesn't like the color of your skin or your religion or your gender?
If this extends to wildland firefighters and other Agencies, I'll be
real curious to see how it would work.
Tahoe Terrie |
| 1/28 |
Ab,
Part of our mission statement at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation is
to honor and recognize Wildland Firefighters.
The other day Rowdy Muir came to the Foundation with Kurt LaRue and
others, and we had a Hangin' Party. We are proudly displaying Rowdy's
Hotshot t-shirt collection on our walls here at the Foundation. He
started this collection some 20 years ago - he has a story for every
shirt, some that can't be told.
Photo
and that's not all. (Here's a
list of contributors and shirts needed to make the collection
complete.)
This shirt collection has brought with it an essence of these Hotshot
crews. You can smell the shirts as they hang on the walls. If only the
shirts could talk, we would have a new book on our hands. Rowdy said he
would have hated to walk the miles these shirts have on them. He hopes
people come and enjoy them and tell some stories. They are truly
one-of-a-kind, like the men and women who wore them. We are extremely
proud and honored to have them here. I invite any and all to come and
see this awesome display. What an experience. We are located right
across the street from NIFC in Boise, ID.
Come visit us.
Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland
Firefighter Foundation
Impressive sight. Too bad we can't provide smells via internet. I
can imagine the collection transforms that huge room into a much more
intimate space. <haw, haw> I'll try to stop by next summer to take it
all in.
Keep up the good work, Vicki.
Thanks for your help, Hotshots.
Rowdy, what
a great place to share the shirts.
How about when folks stop by to tell their stories, you record them? I'm
sure we could find someone who would transcribe them into a collection
that could be put together as a WFF fund-raising book...
Readers, there's a
new 52 list up and running -- for the new year. Remember to renew --
or to sign up for the first time. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
> From the
attached document (Page 22).(200K pdf file) August 30, 2004.
"OIG is mandated by Public Law 107-203 to investigate any FS
employee death related to
wildland fire burnover or entrapment. Our Office of Investigations
has ongoing work resulting
from the 2003 Cramer Fire in Idaho. The investigation seeks to
determine the cause of the
fatalities and contributing factors and to determine if applicable
FS regulations, policies, and
procedures are appropriate and were followed by those involved in
fighting the Cramer Fire."
This statement by the USDA Inspector General HITS THE NAIL ON THE
HEAD.
1. Determine the cause of the fatalities and the contributing factors.
2. DETERMINE IF APPLICABLE FS REGULATIONS, POLICIES, AND PROCEDURES ARE
APPROPRIATE
3. Determine that if the FS policies were appropriate, were they
followed by those involved in fighting the Cramer Fire.
Congressional Intent: Are applicable FS regulations, policies, and
procedures appropriate?
Lobotomy |
| 1/27 |
From Firescribe:
IdahoNews.com
Fire managers: New policies put blame on us |
| 1/27 |
I have finally heard what we have all been waiting for PORTAL to PORTAL.
So if Mr Pombo gets this to pass all federal wildland firefighters would
actually get what the rest of the firefighting community gets a real
honest to goodness pay for what we do 1500 miles from home!!!!!
Thank god somebody does care about US considering that all FEDS will be
able to make enough money during the summer before layoff to have a nice
Christmas with their loved ones instead of waiting in the welfare
line.....
I also have another question for supervisors
If your subordinate goes above your head before asking you, breaking the
chain of command?
1. How would you deal with it?
2. What kind of reaction would you show towards this individual?
3. Do you think that given a situation that could have been dealt with
before a mountain was created. Should this individual be disciplined?
RM
I just fished quite a few messages out of the spam filter. Glad
folks are putting identifying info in the subject line (that doesn't
have XXX in it). "theysaid" works best. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Lobotomy,
As per our discussion last night, I did some research.
Professional liability insurance provides $1,000,000.00 in liability
coverage for civil actions. It also covers legal expenses up to
$100,000.00 for any administrative or criminal action. The only way to
be excluded from this benefit is in the case of "willful misconduct."
That might include being legally drunk or under the influence of drugs
when performing your job duties. If Alan Hackett had Professional
Liability Insurance he would be fighting the charges OIG threatened.
Friends don't let friends lace up their Whites without Professional
Liability Insurance.
KCMO |
| 1/27 |
MP, THANK YOU!
I would like to say thank you for providing the link to the University
of Idaho website. I would also wish to thank the University of Idaho for
working with the agencies in making classes and information available
regarding the 401 process and ways to meet the new educational
requirements.
While I do not agree with the concept and implementation of the 401
biological sciences series as the proper series for wildland fire, I am
very appreciative of the information that you have provided to assist
our folks get up to speed with the current policy.
One document that the college provides on the site is attached. It has
some great opportunities for folks to attend web and video based courses
that you can receive upper and lower division credits. These courses are
offered from many accredited colleges and universities.
These courses provide a great opportunity for folks to meet the 401
requirements. Hopefully, in the future, if we continue to use the 401
series, more courses could be tailored to include fire topics,
specifically fire safety, situational awareness, fire behavior, group
dynamics, and other safety related topics.
LobotomyThanks L. You are such a researcher. Folks, go to the
website and download the document if you want a list of web based
classes and which universities offer them for credit. The list includes
subject area, course number, title, university, credits and delivery
format whether web, web/video, video or... the one at U Washington
requires 3 visits. (Email if you have problems.) Ab. |
| 1/27 |
For logging on to sites that require registration, like
washingtonpost.com
or nytimes.com, use this site:
www.bugmenot.com
It will give you log on access to any news site that I've tried.
BLM Bob |
| 1/27 |
I saw this in today's Washington Post and thought that it may be of
interest to the
wildland community. Not sure what it means to Forest Service or
Department of
Interior wildland firefighters at this point in time. Who knows if these
departments
will try to implement.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39934-2005Jan26.html
geepsRequires a sign-in. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Wildland Jack,
This could just be another unsubstantiated rumor I'm trying to start,
but I did hear somewhere that one-eyed NIMS does indeed "dumb down" the
resource typing for us structural-knuckle-draggers, or SKDs.
I guess the folks in Washington took a good look at our existing
curriculum (i.e., "put the wet stuff on the red stuff" and "place the
traffic cones pointy-side up," etc.) and decided we would only get
confused if changes weren't made.
Anyway, what I hear is that those trucks that haul the wet stuff will at
long last be called tankers. And, they will force the manufacturers to
change the color of wildfire chemical retardant to purple, so we will
quit trying to spray water on the wingy-things dropping the other "red
stuff."
vfd cap'n |
| 1/27 |
Snookie:
A second year rookie; also known as a second year firefighter.
Can be more dangerous and harder to manage than a rook because there is
an element of "Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt" that has to be
overcome.
Similar to Sophomore in college--sophomore means "Wise fool."
Class C Sagebrush Faller.I added it to the terms list. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
Class C Sagebrush Faller used "snook" in his 1/20 post. I understand
rookie and senior, but don't know snook. Ab it isn't on the terms list.
Fire Pup
Funny Fire Names and Terms List, nope, not there. Ab. |
| 1/27 |
To the Federal Wildland Firefighting Community:
I am pleased to apparently be a bit belated in posting information that
the portal to portal legislation was re-introduced yesterday. It has
been numbered as HR 408. This may not seem consequential to some, but
getting a bill introduced within the first 500 sends a clear message to
all, especially the naysayers, that some in Congress are committed to
seeing that our federal wildland firefighters get what they deserve.
I would like to offer a correction to the "press release" posted
yesterday. We all know, as does the congressman, that our federal
wildland firefighters do in fact earn overtime. They simply are not
compensated for all hours while on assignment.
I was in Phoenix yesterday afternoon, having the honor of addressing
those attending the Rocky Mountain Great Basin Hotshot Workshop
comprised of representatives from Regions 2,3,4,8 & 9. What I heard is
that there are still some myths with respect to the FWFSA; who we are
and what we do.
Very few knew of the FWFSA. Those that had an inkling, had the
impression we were in essence an R5/California-ONLY type of social
group. Still others felt that as a result of the 2000, overtime pay cap
bill passage, we were only catering to the "above-GS-9" folks. The vast
majority had no idea what "They Said" was and had never visited the
site.
I am hopeful that I educated some of them but I can't carry our message
across the country myself. Those of you that are members of the FWFSA
and those that support our efforts, can help by communicating our
organization's goals and objectives to those that you meet throughout
the season and to also inform them of this wonderful site that allows so
many to offer ideas and thoughts.
As I've said before, the FWFSA is really the only organization in the
Nation tackling federal wildland firefighter issues through the
legislative process. This is of course because as federal employees,
most of what dictates your employment is codified in Title 5 of the
United States Code. As a result, some issues, such as pay, must be dealt
with through a change in the code. In other words, a change in law.
There is no greater investment value to federal wildland firefighters
whether it be becoming a member of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation's
"52" club at a buck a week, or a member of the FWFSA at 10 bucks a pay
period. Think for a moment that annually, that is a combined expenditure
of approximately $ 312.00. If the portal to portal legislation passes,
you recoup your entire annual investment in less than one pay period.
Let's face it. We know the Agency isn't going to come out and advocate
on your behalf. It must come from within. Your Brothers & Sisters across
the country need to know that someone is watching their backs when they
are on the lines and working for them. These issues are not
CALIFORNIA issues, they are national issues.
Please help us to reach out to the other regions. Our voice is being
heard loud and clear in Washington DC. However we can improve that
collective voice and have a legitimate say in the course of your
careers.
Respectfully,
Casey Judd
Business Manager, FWFSFA
Good job. Carry on. Link to FWFSA at the top of the page (the
shield). Ab. |
| 1/27 |
What happens to our training standard with NIMS or if we go to a Federal
or National
Fire Protection Agency? Does wildland firefighting get "dumbed down"? As
it is we have
people showing up at incidents thinking they should automatically be STL
on wildland
because they have lots of experience with structures.Wildland Jack
Ab, please add
I don't mean any disrespect to structure ff. I don't have the experience
they have with
structure. Do structure training/quals also get "dumbed down"? |
| 1/27 |
From Firescribe:
Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest
officials seek area helitanker |
| 1/27 |
Here's an eye-opener, for those thinking FS Fire should go the way of an
overarching Federal or National Fire Protection Agency. NorCal Tom
NIC Director: Fire is NIMS ‘Center of Gravity’
The fire service began developing incident command systems 30
years ago, but until last year there wasn’t one national system
creating a unified chain of command for response to emergencies from
all federal agencies, as well from state, local, tribal and private
organizations. Last March the Department of Homeland Security
completed the National Incident Management System, a comprehensive
incident response system developed at the request of the president
after Sept. 11......
... <go read the whole interview>
We ought to give due credit and diligence here to the national
wildland fire community as well for the significant role they have
played in the development, the improvement and the evolution of the
NIMS and ICS over the years. I think there are a lot of folks out
there wondering now that the federal government and Homeland
Security have stepped into this arena, will the wildland fire
community’s work be minimalized or marginalized? Quite to the
contrary. What they have done is served as the model in the template
for the NIMS system that we’re rolling out here. And the work that
they have done will and should continue and they deserve a lot of
credit for it.
Will wildland firefighting agencies be the first to implement
NIMS? Since they provided the backbone of the system, will they find
implementation much easier?
That’s exactly right. They have been using it. They clearly have
used and exercised with ICS time and again, so it’s not a foreign
concept to them. They understand resource typing. They understand
having systems to order and track resources. They have doctrine and
training manuals established on all these various components of NIMS.
So I do think that they will find it easier to adopt. I don’t think
there’s going to be any significant pause at all in terms of the
work that they do and the implementation that they do.
What I think we need to be mindful of is that the national wildland
fire community needs to be patient with others who have not known
the system or used the system to the extent that they have.......
... <go read the whole interview> |
| 1/26 |
An update on Matt Taylor, Prineville Hot Shot: I just got off the
phone with Matt's mom, Sarah Taylor. She says Matt's condition has
worsened, but he's happy he's coming home from the Hospice House to be
at home with his wife Kiersten, little daughter Jordan and with the rest
of his family around. Donations YOU made for his care are paying for a
Hospice Nurse, which is a blessing. Many thanks to You All for the
financial help and leave time. Many thanks to Vicki and the Wildland
Firefighter Foundation and to Lance Honda (Prineville Sup) for their continuing help.
Sarah says that this is the time Matt would really appreciate
cards, letters, a visit if you live in the area.
If you have a story, send it. Please let Matt know he's loved and appreciated, that he
contributed and will be remembered well - and to provide his daughter
with glimpses of her dad for when she's old enough to "get it" - wow,
that would be way too good. Maybe some of you have pictures to share.
Even if you don't know Matt, there's something special about providing
some support by sending a card. He and his daughter love getting mail. Here's
a pic (Ab, please?) of
Matt and Jordan when he was well. Pretty sweet.
Card or letter or photos with description/date on the back can go to
Matt Taylor
1216 NE 9th
Bend OR 97701
If you would like to visit, take him out for coffee, to lunch or for
a short walk, call Matt's house 541-389-7626 or Sarah's house
541-382-6273 or email her at
sarahlarson@hotmail.com. Kiersten is off at school some days and Sarah
is one place or the other, so try
until you find someone -- or email her. (The caregiver may not answer
the phone.) Sarah knows Matt's schedule and when there are holes for a
visit. She said visits from friends are
so special to him. His long-time firefighter friend Sam Cordell took him
out for coffee and a brief walk on Monday and Sarah said Matt lit up like a 7
year old.
By all accounts Matt's keeping his faith up. He's an amazing example
to all around him.
Please pop that message in the mail very soon, like now. My thoughts and
prayers are with him and his family.
John Lennon was right when he said, "All we need is Love."
Mellie PS Please send the word out along the various Networks to
let Matt's friends know in case they don't read theysaid. Thanks. |
| 1/26 |
this is in regards to the 401 series. so what is the difference between
technical and professional???? it mentions it in this section as
follows...
The 14 key positions that are affected by the IFPM Standard are:
* Interagency Hotshot Crew Superintendent (technical)
* Helicopter Manager (technical)
* Senior Firefighter (technical)
* Engine Module Supervisor (technical)
* Supervisory Fire Engine Operator (technical)
* Initial Attack Dispatcher (technical)
* Wildland Fire Operations Specialist (professional or technical)
* Prescribed Fire and Fuels Specialist (professional or technical)
* Prevention and Education Specialist (professional or technical)
* Initial Attack Lead Dispatcher/Assistant Center Manager (technical)
* Center Manager (professional or technical)
* Unit Fire Program Manager (professional)
* Geographic Area Fire Program Manager (professional)
* National Fire Program Manager (professional)
so if you have a technical job. then what? you have to become a book
worm to dig line now or to turn a water valve? i personally dont agree
with the 401 gig. i think it is just a big deal that is in the big
cheese office to get all these office slugs making GS 12s and 13s to
make the overtime that all the fireline personnel are making!
since they are sitting behind a desk and drinking coffee while every one
is out working their rear ends off and they are just handed their
checks!!! you know this may be my opinion but i think there may be a few
out there may agree with me too.
401 thing has got to go OUT THE WINDOW!!!!TN |
| 1/26 |
Does anyone have the dates for the California
Interagency Incident Command Team workshop in
Reno?
Boone |
| 1/26 |
I am happy to let you know Colorado State University has announced the
first
Paul Gleason Wildland Fire Scholarship, to be awarded this coming Fall
from
donations received in Paul's memory. Here is the link to the page. You
need to
scroll to the drop down menu box, and select "Forest Rangeland
Watershed".
The same page then comes up, with the scholarships attached at the
bottom.
Paul's is about two thirds of the way down.
http://taurus.cnr.colostate.edu/apps/scholarship/index.cfm |
| 1/26 |
Hey FMO Joe Boy
I have known Alan Hackett for a long time and do
believe he got a raw deal. There was never any
attempt in my post to stop people from having
situational awareness or learning something from
Cramer, just an attempt to see if there was anything
else out there for a few days. There was no intention
of trying to squash the discussion permanently.
Bitch and moan all you want folks, but what is is what
is. Yes people like Alan get screwed by the agency,
and KRS has the worst case scenario battling with
WOCP. My intention was not to take away from these
lessons we all better learn if we are going to stay
yellow or green. My intention was to see if anyone
has something positive to say about their agency,
their supervisors, their subordinates, their
equipment. From recent posts you would think we are
all nuts for staying, that the FS is the worst
employer.
Since I first started in 88 there have been many
changes, not all of them positive, but many are. I
like centralized fire organizations, I like equipment
made by firefighters for fighters. I like the
attempts to standardize fire qualifications. I like
the push to modernize air tankers and helicopters. I
like that it is getting harder than it used to be to
hide managers that are seriously deficient. I like
that the new kids I hire seem to be more professional
and driven than the kids I hired 10 years ago. I like
the idea of the national apprentice academy, although
it has a long way to go still. I like the change in
the smokejumper programs to provide even more diverse
services to the agencies. I like what we do, and for
the most part how we do it.
This is all I was getting at there Joe Boy, and by the
way I am dealing with it. Jeff's loss was a
significant personal loss to me and I'm not ashamed of
that.
JD |
| 1/26 |
This just in from JE.
Pombo Says Give Federal Wildland Firefighters
What They Deserve
Washington - Today, Congressman Richard Pombo (CA-11) introduced the
Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of
2005. This legislation provides federal wildland firefighters with
proper compensation for their dangerous profession.
"Last year alone over 64,000 wildfires burned over eight million acres of
forest. We need boots on the ground fighting these destructive blazes, and
we need to compensate firefighters for the very important dangerous job
they do," said Congressman Pombo. "Our brave men and women are being
shortchanged and we must change the standards."
Each summer, wildfires bring devastating destruction to our countryside and
towns. Often overlooked are the brave men and women working long,
dangerous hours fighting and suppressing these fires. When an emergency is
declared, these federal firefighters from the Bureau of Land Management and
U.S. Forest Service are dispatched immediately to the scene.
The standard pay system forces these firefighters to work long and
dangerous hours without overtime compensation. The combination of high
risks and poor pay not only creates safety hazards, but hurts the
recruitment and retention of some of the best-trained firefighters in the
country.
Currently, whether they are 10 or 3000 miles from home, federal wildland
firefighters are paid for only part of any 24 hour period while the federal
government pays all other firefighters (local, state, municipal
firefighters and contractors) on the same fire their full, 24 hour
salaries. Under the provisions of this bill, federal wildland firefighters
would be paid for all time away from their assigned duty station when
dispatched to an emergency incident.
Congressman Richard Pombo represents California's Eleventh Congressional
District. Congressman Pombo is Chairman of the House Resources Committee
and serves on the House Agriculture Committee.
For more information on Congressman Richard Pombo and his work for
California please visit: http://www.house.gov/pombo |
| 1/26 |
Does anyone out there have S-330 Task Force/ Strike Team Leader on
power point?
I'm trying to avoid making a ton of view graphs.
Thanks,
Bill Edwards
NJFFS |
| 1/26 |
I've updated the Jobs
page and Series
0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series
0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and the 0401
(professional Biologist) listings. The link to 0401 is on the jobs page. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
Hello Fireworld-
In response to Leo Larkin and all others affected by the recent IFPM 401
series standards:
I would like to tell you what the University of Idaho along with the
Forest Service, BLM, National Park Service, BIA, United States Fish and
Wildlife Service, and some state agencies are working towards to help
meet the 401 series standards. Representatives from these agencies have
been meeting with the University of Idaho since December 2004, to
determine the best way to meet the needs. The University of Idaho’s
College of Natural Resources is currently putting together classes and
programs that will help employees meet the 401 series requirements. The
University of Idaho is including other universities and colleges as
well. If you would like to view what has been done to date, there is a
website where you will be able to get information about classes and a
program as it develops. Any of these three websites will link you:
http://401series.com
http://401series.net or http://401series.org
This website will explain 401 and the requirements, help you understand
how you will be able to meet them, and what the University of Idaho and
others can offer that will help you. Please remember that currently the
website is still under construction and new information is added all the
time as it develops.
The University of Idaho has and is creating more courses that can be
taken on-line that will fit the 401 needs. They are developing short
course workshops that will be given in a variety of places throughout
the Intermountain Northwest and perhaps elsewhere. The College of
Natural Resources is working to make sure the courses offered will meet
the 401 series requirements. If anyone has questions about how the
College of Natural Resources can help and what is currently being done
please visit the website or call the College of Natural Resources, (208)
885-8981 – ask for Cheri Cole. You can also email questions to
cheric@uidaho.edu.MP |
| 1/25 |
Thoughts for Chat tonight...
Lobotomy and All,In the middle of thinking out of the box (wish I
understood the box so I'd know when I'm in or out...)
I'm trying to get my head around the inefficiencies in the FS
structure and chain-of-command and how it relates to safety. A year or
two ago when the structure was all enmeshed and networked, I could see
the point in not centralizing any functions in the FS. Status quo. If
it's not broke, why change it? But now that centralizing is happening in
many areas that make functioning of fire teams less efficient, I wonder
why we're not thinking about centralizing wildland firefighting itself.
Someone suggested Bosworth is dismantling the FS. I'm just wondering why
not really make it better all the way if you're going to
dismantle part?
Doesn't it seem non-productive or counter-productive -- or just plain
costly, not to mention unsafe -- to have a Forest District Ranger, or
MANY RANGERS, rubber stamping what firefighters tell Rangers they need
to do? Line officers - Rangers - are not trained as firefighters. What
do they know about making high-risk decisions outside of their
professional expertise? How do they know what is safe and what is not
regarding fire and training, even resources needed, etc.? Most don't
care about fire or IC-ing per se, do they? They don't know about the
emerging all-risk firefighter responsibilities: about NIIMS, NIMS,
HAZMAT, structure protection, working with LOTS of agencies to manage
incidents including fire -- where the process for responding needs to be
as streamlined as possible. Lobotomy, I see what you mean.
Are Rangers really needed for FS wildland firefighters to complete
their mission, protecting the land and serving people? Seems to me from
that
delegation example you posted, they just provide some kind of a
"rubber stamp". Do they also rubber-stamp other functions, like Fuels or
Engineering? Did they rubber-stamp IT and Finance before those groups
were sent away to Santa Fe (in the case of Finance)?
It's clear that resources to fight fire should be kept on forests.
(I'd hate it if they all got sent to NM! <snicker>) But fire could still
be centralized within forests and within regions. What would be the
downside of this? FS fire managers (FMOs of all the forests in R5 for
example) get a whole lot done when they get together to address
concerns, brainstorm solutions, and work on issues. My gosh, it's
amazing! While members of the BOD often disagree before a decision is
made and sometimes rather chaotically, they're largely working for the
same goals and not competing for resources. They're prettymuch on the
same page by the time for thumbs up or thumbs down or else a decision is
saved for the next mtg.
I asked a friend why the FS powers-that-be including the Rangers
might not want things to change??? She said GS pay level is determined
by how many people a Ranger supervises and how many different groups of
people a Ranger has to talk with in the course of their job. GS level
has to do with OPM classifications and position descriptions... Taking
away a Ranger's "delegation" responsibilities to Fire might make some
(All?) drop from GS-13 to GS-12. Is this true?
Are there any other "Impediments" to centralizing fire? What about
downside? Maybe there's a different structure that would be more
streamlined and workable. It's a different FS than existed in the
beginning.
Where's my box?
Mellie |
| 1/25 |
Addition to
ICT3 reference list For the those of us in R5.
ICS-420-1 The ICS Field Operations Guide
Available at
www.firescope.org/
The list should be standard for all single resources and above as a
checklist for their briefcases, not just ICT3s.
SRJS
PS
The NFES 0065 Fireline Handbook (2004) is almost, key word almost,
useless without the NFES 2165 Appendix B attached. Who was the rocket
scientist who came up with the new format, not allowing the appendixes
to be added is beyond me.
Added it. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
Snow pack, one of the predictors of fire season.
Here's the report and prediction for R6. Anything
for R5, R3, etc?
Rx
~~~~~~~~~Seasonal update – 21 January 2005
Sea surface temps in the eastern Pacific indicate a mild El Nino event.
These events typically affect PNW weather from November through March.
Despite the mildness of the event, the effects seem to be like those
associated with much more severe El Ninos. These include torrential
rains in the southwest and mild, dry conditions across the northern
tier. While the direct impact (precip) of El Nino falls off in the
spring, the longer term indirect effects usually manifest themselves in
the summer in the form of drier fuels.
The
snowpack (map) in the state of Oregon is well below normal in most
basins as of January 1, 2005. The Basin and Range province encompassing
Lake County and the Goose Lake area is the only location within the
state that currently has a normal snowpack. All other basins in the
state have well below normal snow accumulation.
Washington is not getting off to a very good start this season, with
less than one-half of the normal snowpack and only three-quarters of the
normal precipitation. Most of the automated SNOTEL (SNOw TELemetry)
stations are showing record to near record lows for January 1 snowpack.
There have only been a few years (1977, 1981, 1990) that have started
off this slow since the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS)
started using SNOTEL in the late 70s
Weather forecast agencies are predicting a continuation of the current
El Nino pattern of below normal precipitation and above average
temperatures for the next 90-days. Historically the west sides of the
Cascades, particularly in Washington, have been more affected (below avg
precip) by El Nino conditions.
Baring a “March miracle” we have lost the opportunity to accumulate
significant snowpack in our area. This will affect groundwater, stream
flow and pond recharge and leave heavy fuels at higher elevations drier
than normal.
Past analysis has shown a strong relationship between snow pack
accumulation on April 1 and snow melt dates at selected sites in the PNW
with the subsequent fire season. We will monitor these indicators
throughout the winter and spring and keep you informed. The situation at
this time points towards higher probabilities of an active fire season. |
| 1/25 |
Regarding the dark scenario presented by 'nerd. If this EVER happens
to anyone -
- DOCUMENT IT.
- File a SafeNET. Call the 800 number.
- Get on your cellphone and take action.
- Any crew that is willing to recognize ignorance in action should
have the
wherewithal to report it.
- This type of behavior is not condoned and in this day and age -
that IC
would not have a leg to stand on.
This is one of the reasons why it is so important to share with the
uninitiated some of the mechanisms that are out there for your
protection.
The SAFENET system was developed by firefighters for use by
firefighters.
Use It.
Safenet Advocate
The permanent link to the SAFENET site is on the
Links page near the bottom under safety. The phone number for
providing a verbal SAFENET is also located there. Ab. |
| 1/25 |
Lobotomy,
No problem. That's why we went to the effort to post all these documents
- so others could make use of them and make the system better. Anyway,
it's all public record.
The Cramer briefing paper does point out a unique oversight problem that
existed on the forest/district level:
"The Operations Staff Officer at the Forest level is tasked under
the Forest Supervisor with addressing and ensuring fire operations
are handled appropriately. The Staff Officer has oversight of the
Forest FMO and Deputy FMO, who in turn provide assistance when
needed to the District FMOs. The Operations Staff Officer is also
responsible for addressing effectiveness with the District Rangers.
There is a concern among many in the Forest staff that the
Operations Staff Officer could not provide an appropriate level of
supervision over the District Ranger for the North Fork and the
Middle Fork Districts, as that Ranger is also the Staff Officer's
spouse."
Delegation of authority is necessary, but it only works with the
proper amount of oversight.
vfd cap'n |
| 1/25 |
JD,
You ask for a Cramer free week for those of you that knew the guys that
got burned over. With this issue being forefront on the fire scene the
likelihood of that happening is nil. What if the rest of us ICT3 folks
out there "asked" for a week of no worries about the possibility of
someone elses "lack of situational awareness" having the potential to
jeopardize our careers down the road when we respond to a transition
incident? How about if the folks that know and have worked with the
Cramer IC in a past life ("TC from the St.Joe IHC", if you want to know
who I am. The St. Joe is now the Idaho Panhandle IHC) want a week off
from this whole deal of watching a fellow respected employee be
pushed/(roasted) to resign from his chosen line of employment and face
criminal charges because of the lack of support/preplanning of the SCNF?
Do you think a week away for the sake of those of you that knew Shane
and Jeff is going to make the fire world better? What about those of us
that are dealing with the issue of experienced ICT3's telling us they
are no longer interested in doing that job because of the career ending
effects it may hold for them after Cramer? Do you think that the rappel
crew foreman they worked for should have been thinking about where they
were being set down and how they were going to get out? Sorry to go
ballistic but you need to realize that this issue is incredibly real for
those of us that have to manage Type III incidents now and in the
future.
Life is hard, fires burn, and there is no forgiveness for mistakes. Deal
with it.
FMO Joe Boy |
| 1/25 |
vfd cap'n, I borrowed and redacted this letter from the Co Fire Camp site. Since we are all trying to improve safety, I
hope ya'll folks won't mind.
The letter
of delegation below is just like many letters of delegation that are used in the
federal land management agencies. It would be interesting to know how the line
officers and fire managers feel about being delegated this authority in the
future.
Here is how the system works.... please excuse me and I apologize in advance for
the capital letters.... I just want to make sure the folks with bad eyes can
read... no shouting here... just the facts.
1. FACT NUMBER 1 - Authority can be delegated, RESPONSIBILITY CANNOT.
2. FACT NUMBER 2 - The WO delegates to the RO, who then delegates to the SO, who
then delegates to the District Ranger, who then delegates to the IC and fire
managers.
3. FACT NUMBER 3 - Numerous OSHA citations and investigative reviews have found
that management oversight is lacking, untrained, or inadequate.
4. FACT NUMBER 4 - There needs to be a cultural shift in federal land
management. The folks at the bottom of the food chain (Forests and Districts)
should no longer be held accountable for failed oversight programs at the
National or Regional level. The key cultural shift needed is a wildland fire
series providing fire management oversight from the GS-2 to GS-15 level.
5. FACT NUMBER 5 - Many untrained and under experienced line officers are
expected to provide oversight to a profession that they have little or no
education in.
I have around 20 of these facts.... Each of you can come up with your own facts
and determinations. Please read the responsibilities below and participate in
the future discussion. Lots of change on the horizon.
LobotomyThe letter Lobotomy talks about that we link to above shows that
Rangers and Forest Supervisors provide "oversight" to fire managers. |
| 1/24 |
Hi All, Could we chat tonight about why there are so many redundancies
in management on forests and ranger districts within forests and how the
FS chain of command might be restructured to streamline and reduce
costs? I have wondered why, with all the restructuring of IT, Finance,
etc, the powers that be have not talked about centralizing fire. Must be
lots of money involved, but what might be other impediments?
I'll try to be in chat about 7:30 and stay until 9 Pacific time.
Mellie |
| 1/24 |
Hello Ab, and to the crew at wildlandfire.com,
Attached are 10 images I shot while fighting some of
Alaska's wildfires in 2004 - the biggest fire season
in the state's history. I would like to share these
images on your fine website, in whatever capacity you
see fit. I understand they may be downloaded for
personal use, and only request that I am relayed any
inquiries regarding professional or commercial usage.
I will gladly submit photo IDs at your request.
All the Best in 2005!
Mike McMillan - Alaska Smokejumper
www.spotfireimages.com
Thanks Mike, you create some very nice images. I put them on the
following photo pages: the Smokejumper
2 page, on Fire
26, and AirTanker
15. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Ab, Here are the MAFFS photos I told you about.
These photos were taken by an Air Force photographer (making them public domain) while I was out at Hill AFB in Utah with MAFFS doing initial attack in summer 2004.
#1 L-R Smokey Helper Houston Sim (Wasatch-Cache FS), Smokey, and loadmaster Kevin Driscoll of the 302nd Air Lift Wing in the rear of MAFFS 2 (Smokey, Allison
Fairbourne, Wasatch-Cache NF)
#2 MAFFS 2.
#3 This photo shows the tubes at the back more clearly.
#4 This next one is very posed, but I still like it. Greg, the lead plane pilot, is just one of the nicest people you can hope to meet.
Smokey (Smokey, Allison Fairbourne, Wasatch-Cache NF) and USDA Forest Service lead plane N146Z and pilot Greg McDonald
I took some photos that show details of the MAFFS setup inside the aircraft, if you want. It is the old system that's going away, when next year? And the photos aren't as sharp because I don't carry anything on a fire assignment that I can lose.
JW
I put them on AirTanker
15. Thanks JW. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Please add photo to logo page. Engine 16 is stationed in
Chester, Ca on the Lassen NF.
SM
I did, to Logos
10. Say hi to your bosses from me. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Here's the sign for the Helitack base in Independence, Ca.
Cheers,
Merry Christmas,
Mike Evans
This message shows how long some of these photos have been
awaiting posting. Put it on Heli
18. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
AB,
Here's a couple of engine pics for the photo archive of a new
ODF type 6 and ODF type 5 for the Forest Grove Oregon
Dept. of Forestry District. Enjoy!
Firemang
Thanks Firemang. Posted 'em on Engines
12 photo page. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Ab, here's a really nice photo taken of our crew buggy, Keene Flight Crew, Home of H-555
from Keene Flight Crew. Thanks
Nice reflection of the flames. It's posted on Equipment
8. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
a photo of a 1998 John Deere 450G LT, just moping up at a wildfire seen near Liberty, Mississippi.
Thanks!
Will
Thanks, Will, I posted it on Equipment
8 photo page. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Ab,
Can you add this photo to the photo webpage. It is a picture of the Cottonwood fire in 1994. It is the second day of the fire.
Thanks,
Rex Thompson
Rex, I added it to the Fire
26 photo page. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Ab, here's a pic of Cedar fire 2003. This pic was taken at 10:30 on the third day of the fire Pine Hills Fire Station.
wildland capt
Thanks capt. I put it on the Cedar
Fire photo page. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Nerd's Scenario:
I'm a longtime lurker and fan of this page. Seldom
written, and with the amount of tension surrounding
this issue I'm reluctant to step in now. But it's a
subject that's touched a nerve and I have to give it a
try...
I wonder if, taken the way she intended, Nerd's
worst-case scenario didn't have a very good point.
Not talking Cramer, not talking attacks on anyone, but
rather about the 'darkest black' possible behavior
from an IC.
Hate to say it, but I've seen this kind of...what
would you call it? Malicious negligence? It was only
once, and it was driven less by an IC's concept of
'acceptable losses' than by this individual's ego and
unwillingness to admit his oversight on a fire. We
got on the hill (thick oakbrush) and found we couldn't
communicate with our contact person, couldn't see any
lookout or the main fire, and furthermore our saws
were having 'issues'. There was lots of confusion and
the winds were funky. Our squad bosses contacted the
IC and informed him, politely, of the reasons we were
going to temporarily disengage and regroup. The same
routine that occurs on many fires. No big deal. But
in this case, the IC and one of his friends proceeded
to join us on the hill, red-faced with anger, and
launch into a litany of insults, basically calling the
squad bosses idiots and cowards in front of their
crews. A shouting match ensued. A crewmate, a fire
veteran, tried to calm everyone down, return to the
issues; he again cited the safety deficiencies we were
concerned about. The IC responded by taunting him as
well. The rest of us stood there, stunned to be
witnessing this behavior on the fireline from a
supposed professional in a position of authority.
Fortunately, the firefighters involved were too
level-headed/experienced to be bullied into accepting
the unsafe circumstances...but what if they'd been
some green crew, intimidated into following his orders
ton continue blindly on? If something went horribly
wrong (a possibility in tinder-dry oakbrush), would
the IC be accountable for his actions? This wasn't a
case of a personal misunderstanding, or an IC with too
much on his plate to cope with. It was a person in
charge apparently infuriated about having his grasp of
the situation questioned in any way, and willing to
jeopardize lives because of it. (Or, more likely, just
not thinking past his anger to the consequences of his
words and his oversight).
Again, this kind of thing is rare. I never saw
anything else like it in eight seasons on the job. I
think the idea of a criminal investigation coming out
of Cramer, or nearly any other fire tragedy, is
heinous. No IC is omnipotent, and the kind of
maliciousness described in this post is almost
nonexistent on fires....almost.
But if it's the case that a few of THEM are out there,
maybe Nerd's question deserves some consideration. I
know it's a question that's bothered me ever since
this experience.
Sign me,
REALLY anonymous (since several friends still have to
work for this guy) |
| 1/24 |
Re Discussion on Cramer: Knowledge of the Cramer Fire Incident
probably did help mitigate
responses on the Nuttall Fire (Coronado NF, July 2, 2004). It was
realized that the helitack did not have LCES in place before exiting
the helicopter. Firefighters radioed for corrective measures, the IMT
responded, and the situation was resolved with no close call.
Recognition Primed Decision-making. Slides in a tray. Useful way
to look at it.
Strider |
| 1/24 |
I’m sorry again if my last post could be taken as an attack on anybody
or a brush-off of anybody. I’ll confess that FireNWater ticked me off…I
thought I’d vetted that out of my post pretty thoroughly, but it looks
like I was wrong. A number of folks also seem to be taking my
hypothetical evil-IC post as an attack on Alan Hackett or on ICs in
general, or an imputation that folks who are getting out did something
wrong. I didn’t mean this in the least, and I’m certainly not implying
that folks should give up any of the certs they worked so hard for. I
was trying to present a situation, as I said, as “dark black” as I could
think of to suggest that some kind of absolute blanket assurance of
agency support could not and really should not happen. You’re right; I
really have no clue and I’ll say no more on the subject…everything I
post on the issue seems to be interpreted as an attack.
Nerd |
| 1/24 |
JD - reference your request for a "Cramer-free Week". Seems to me that
you are fully empowered to read only the posts you chose, skipping over
Cramer, boots and hardhats, the Apprentice program or anything else that
you find redundant and tedious.
Some of us believe that Cramer may be one of the most significant fires
in the past 50 years. It's not about Shane & Jeff, but rather the
"fallout" resulting from the OIG investigation and the actions of the US
Attorney that keep many of thinking "....there but by the grace of God
go I."
Lots of us have been close to other wildfire burnover fatalities, and
can only hope that the continued attention to them will prevent another
similar event. Maybe all the chat about Cramer will make one T-3 IC
think differently about her/his actions??
Mollysboy |
| 1/24 |
FireNWater;
I think you misinterpreted my post. First, I wasn’t drawing parallels to
Cramer; I was setting out a situation as “dark black” as I could think
of, a situation in which the IC’s actions were utterly indefensible.
Ab’s appalled little comment on the bottom of my post was pretty much
the reaction I was going for; the situation I set out was unimaginable,
but in the degree of the wrongdoing, not the style. Let go of Cramer for
a minute…I’m not talking about Cramer, I’m talking about the legal
precedent Cramer establishes. You confidently assert that NOBODY would
do that, that NOBODY thinks that way, and you have more faith in human
nature than I. You’re right in that it seems very alien to fire doctrine
and the fire culture as we know it. But that doesn’t mean that it can’t
and won’t happen.
You suggest that it’s a reflection of inexperience that I brought up
liability insurance. If you re-read my post, you’ll find that I never
mentioned liability insurance…I was bringing up an example of another
industry in which responsible parties handle the same personal risks
that wildland fire ICs are beginning to realize they bear. Other fields
the “intrinsically hazardous” legal label without the protection of the
federal government; let’s figure out how they do it instead of
reinventing the wheel. Fire isn’t the isolated community that it’s
sometimes made out to be. My blaster example was not arbitrary; that is
how liability in intrinsically hazardous fields works. Give me a day or
so and I’ll quote the legal precedent for you. Now about the subject of
what you perceive to be my inexperience; you’re right. I’m a
third-season groundpounder. But I have a major advantage in that I’m a
vollie, which means that fire isn’t all I do. In “real life” I’m in an
industry that made the same transition twenty years ago that I see fire
making now, the realization that responsible parties can and will be
held personally liable for perceived errors made in the course of their
job duties, that we will be judged by those who don’t understand what we
do, and that it’s easier to prosecute individuals than organizations.
You suggest that it’s naïve of me to suggest liability insurance because
I don’t understand how complex the situation is. It surprises me that
the world has been as simple as it has been for fire folks for so long.
Nerd on the FirelineThe world has never been simple for
interagency fire commanders. I know you said "as simple as it has been"
as though the glass is half full. Those with IC experience know the
glass is half empty and now way more than half empty with regard to
safety. You're missing that "slide in your box". I
know you're reaching for other slides. So are incident commanders. What
happens next will not be a reinvention of what lawyers have told risky
industry to do... or it would have been done already. Ab. |
| 1/24 |
Pulled from the spam filter. Who'd'a thunk it. haw haw. Ab. Re:
Incident Commander support issue,
I’ve been following the Cramer IC thread for a while now, but am a
little irritated by a recent poster who states they “don’t understand
this attitude that “the agency should support its people no matter what”
“. My apologies in advance for any grammatical error in the preceding
sentence, I confess to being unsure how to punctuate a quote containing
a prior quote.
I don’t recall and can’t find anything similar to the quoted text “the
agency should support its people no matter what”. Using the provided
search engine finds only the one instance of the quoted text on this
website. Since the quote doesn’t exist previously here, I presume it to
be a self-serving creation used to prop an even more far-fetched
scenario which follows its use in the same post.
There have been several other posters who assail the same vaporous
ideology of federal employees believing they should not be held
accountable for their actions. I again fail to recall reading any posts
containing such thinking. Even the most aggressive pro-federal employee
messages acknowledge only those employees following existing policies
and procedures should be supported.
Is it simply a matter of some people’s reading and comprehension
abilities? Or are there underlying motives to attack federal employee
and their issues, compelling some participants to concoct imaginary
quotes or comments?
All I can say is, let the reader beware! Read the messages, if they
press one of your buttons, read it again. It’s usually fairly easy to
determine the motivation of the author and perhaps even their fire
skill, experience level, and association. And remember, just because
they state something as fact, even to the extent of using quote marks,
doesn’t mean it has any basis in reality outside their own mind.
Thanks for the forum Ab!
Steve
PS. I too was wordless after reading the fictitious scenario posted on
1/21 that you didn’t know how to respond to. It took me a couple of days
to calm myself, but a person making up crap to support their own views
or agendas pushes one of my buttons. |
| 1/24 |
GIS GIrl
I am a situation Unit Leader on a team, and one skill that I depend on
with
my GIS tech is the ability to map from aircraft, with GPS and/or paper
and
pencil. The tech has a much greater appreciation of the fireline after
seeing it first hand. This is a vital skill. Maybe not practical all the
time on every fire, but as often as possible, I put my GIS Tech in the
helo. And I take a flight myself as often as possible.
Fireball XL5 |
| 1/24 |
RE: Cramer Fire
Why don't we give Cramer a rest for awhile, the posts are getting
redundant, and those of us close to Jeff and Shane would really enjoy a
break. How about a Cramer Free week, just one week, can we do that? I am
not saying there are not new and relevant things to learn, but there has
to be other things to pontificate about for awhile. VFD Capt I'm
counting on you to lead the way in this.
Maybe talking about a couple of good experiences would be refreshing, or
some one who enjoys working for their agency. Perhaps someone who really
respects their line officer's fire knowledge. Or how about a story of a
youngster that has a great grip on what is going on out on the line and
you see a lot of potential in them, an attaboy if you will. Or how about
a word from someone who didn't get screwed by the man. A joke? Maybe
just another serious topic.
But seriously, myself and others appreciate what is trying to be
accomplished by some posts, but it's getting harder and harder to tune
in here when the story and its ending stay the same. This is a great
forum. Give us one week, see what you can come up with.
JD |
| 1/23 |
vfd cap'n As one of your CISD stress reduction items you said
* Whenever someone in a meeting mentions OSHA, repeat the agency name 3
times, using the same snotty inflection as when the Brady Bunch sister
whines, "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!!!"
I don't have any of the Brady Bunch slides in my "recognition primed
decision making slide tray", but I'm adding your item to my list of
stress abatements as another "to do". I'm not sure I can do it (I need
Skip to mentor me) or if I remember Marcia (is she a firefighter?), but
I need to see how long I can remember there's something more I should
try to do and check off next time OSHA becomes a goin' and blowin'
incident on my interface. I'm hoping this effort on my part reduces
someone's stress somewhere or at least saves some agency from
litigation.
Tongue in cheek,
Todd |
| 1/22 |
Abs,
Just got back from NIFC, reminded me of a hornet’s nest that some kid
just whacked with a stick. I don’t envy those folks who have to wrestle
with all of these issues, I wish them well. Wonder what the WO East
feels like right now.
They Said is really smoking, there have been many great posts of late. I
am deeply appreciative that we have a forum like this to help illuminate
the many problems presently confronting wildland firefighters. We sure
aren’t getting the straight skinny from the WO.
Cynic- I fully expected to get gored a few times for assaulting the Ten
Standard Fire Orders sacred cow in my last post. Since several They Said
posters have already defended me against your assertion that my
assessment of the 10 was “juvenile”, and since you sort of apologized,
I’ll just say this: I recommend that you read Ted Putnam’s paper on the
Ten Standard Fire Orders that NorCal Tom just posted. I first read it
several years ago, and it certainly made me view the 10 in a much
different light.
Also, I don’t think it is naïve to look at the non-fire workload that
fire managers have to put up with these days. Technology can be a
wonderful thing, but it gives with one hand and takes away with the
other. The downside to technology is that you need to spend time
learning to use it, and operating it, so we wind up spending more and
more time thinking and learning about technology instead of fire. Same
goes for collateral duties. I don’t think that we should just put up
with these things if we know they are interfering with firefighter
safety.
I had the good fortune early in my career to spend a lot of time
dragging a drip torch around the woods. We burned day and night, lost a
few burns along the way, chased a lot of slopovers, but were generally
successful in the end. I developed my own Campbell Prediction System the
hard way, and those lessons still guide my decisions today. When I feel
the hair standing up on my neck, I know it is time to re-evaluate my
present course. How are our up-and-coming fire leaders going to learn
how to discern between acceptable and unacceptable risks?
I may have gone to the well once too often, but not the tavern. Cynic, I
would also enjoy discussing this over a beer someday. You buy the first
round.
Skip- I loved your analogy of playing in the street! That is a wonderful
and easy way to illustrate how to keep new firefighters safe until their
own Recognition Primed Decisionmaking “slides” are developed. I hope you
don’t mind if I borrow (steal) your idea. My first fire “mom” was a
crusty old pipe-smoking Dutchman who I still think about today when I
get in a tight spot.
Mellie- As always, your wisdom and dedication shines through your posts.
I hope I get to meet you someday.
Misery Whip |
| 1/22 |
Photo of
Cramer Helispot (Salmon Challis NF). View from ridge down to
helispot. Sign me;
Go see it yourself |
| 1/22 |
Ab,
Here is a great article about a retiring CDF pioneer with 56 years of service.
www.napanews.com
Fireball XL5
|
| 1/22 |
Ab,
Here's in interesting article by Ted Putnam (2001), seems pertinent.
The Ten Standard
Firefighting Orders: Can Anyone Follow Them?
NorCal Tom
Ab note: this is a doc file. |
| 1/22 |
Here's the AGENDA for the
2005 IAWF SAFETY SUMMIT on Human Factors.
There will also be a poster session. Ab is posting the announcement from Marty
Alexander below.If anyone wants the Conference Brochure, it's available at
the
IAWF website in pdf form.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
POSTER SESSION ANNOUNCEMENT
Wildland Fire Safety Summit 2005:
"The Human Factors Workshop - 10 Years Later"
Missoula, Montana
April 26-28, 2005
The International Association of Wildland Fire is pleased to announce
that a poster session will also be included as part of this year's
program. Those planning to attend the 2005 Wildland Fire Safety Summit
in Missoula are strongly encouraged to take advantage of the opportunity
to contribute a poster paper presentation.
In addition to the theme of this year's summit, virtually any aspect of
wildland fire safety will be considered - e.g., case studies, personal
experiences (close calls or near misses), new research projects,
training, equipment, safety messages/alerts, innovative approaches, etc.
Presenters will be provided with guidelines for preparing an effective
poster paper which would ideally combine text, schematic diagrams,
graphs, photos, maps, etc. in a way that would allow for maximum
interaction with those attending the summit.
Presenters will be given the opportunity to include the poster or a
written version of the poster in the published summit proceedings.
Please take the time to consider sharing your personal ideas, knowledge,
experience (good or bad), thoughts, impressions, ideas, opinions, etc.
in pursuit of improving wildland fire safety now and in the future.
Please send an abstract or poster presentation proposal of 250 words or
less to Dr. Marty Alexander with FERIC Wildland Fire Operations Research
Group by NLT February 15, 2005. E-mail:
mea2@telus.net Questions? Call 780-417-0244 Additional details about
the conference can be found at
www.iawfonline.org/summit |
| 1/22 |
SoCal brothers and sisters on the fed side I hope someone realizes
soon that you can't fight fire in SoCal and
Cover your A** in Fed style (read that "get all the fed checklists
accomplished") at the same time.
Is there much hope for fed sanity for this fire season?
SoCal CDF |
| 1/22 |
Nerd:
The examples in your post have no similarity whatsoever to the Cramer
incident.
NOBODY in the fire service follows a "military style policy of
acceptable losses" involving the safety of firefighters. NOBODY would
knowingly send a crew into a situation where "there is a very high
probability that they will have to deploy". The fire service is not the
military. I don't believe that anyone in the Cramer incident displayed
"willful and wanton disregard for the safety" of the people who died by
KNOWINGLY sending them into a situation they expected to become
inescapable. My take on the various reports is that Alan Hackett was in
over his head, knew it, asked for help and didn't get the support he
needed. This occurred for many reasons most of us can never really
totally understand, but which probably included oblivious stupidity and
poor communications on the part of a number of people.
I don't believe your assertion is true that the person in charge is
CRIMINALLY liable if they did everything right and someone still gets
hurt or killed. Your blaster example is like saying that you could go to
jail for being in a car wreck where nobody is found at fault and someone
is killed. In the Cramer fire mistakes were definitely made. The debate
centers around whether one person should be the scapegoat for all who
were involved.
You write well, but if you had much experience in wildland fire you
would know better than to suggest liability insurance as a solution to
this very complex issue. Insurance doesn't help with criminal charges.
The only thing it might do is pay some of the costs if someone sues you
in civil court.
FireNWaterAb opinion: FireNWater, I would have said "not much
experience in wildland fire above the groundpounder crewmember level",
that is, no experience in managing. Sharing information and gaining
understanding is what we're about on theysaid. |
| 1/22 |
After reading the posts of Mr. Mangan and dispatcher I have to put my
.02 in...................
I worked fire for 7-8 years in various capacities ..... Engine boss
Squad Boss, Helitack, Aerial Detection on and on.
Never got to ICT3 mostly lots of ICT4
Worked with a lot of fine professionals
Spent 21 years as a helo mechanic and fit fire into that and even did my
drills out of state to get my retirement even when I was assigned to
fire stations and sometimes that would miff some fire managers.
Been reading these posts and watching what has been going on with this
qual stuff and I have to agree.... Who in the h*ll has got all this time
to go to training and is this training going to be evened out throughout
the whole system and not just to permanent personnel???
Are the agencies even going to the colleges or vice versa to maybe
establish a track for 401 or will the curriculum that currently exists
in some colleges that teach wild land fire science even fit the bill?
The agencies better get to work solving this problem, too, because
people already in those programs, well are those still going to fit into
the 401, 460, 455, 462, h*ll does it even help 2181 pilots get their
foot in the door??
Don't get me started on the current airtanker debacle..... I am
currently spending 200 per hour out of pocket for twin engine time
coupled with my forestry degree with the hopes of maybe getting to lead
or tanker work. Right now I just have to be happy with skydiver job
offers that come along. Some folks at the agencies have depended so long
on aircraft that have done the work, weren't designed for tanker work in
the first place, still depended on those operators for years, and then
crap on them for aging aircraft issues, that's like going after the
military for their acft, they are all relics except for a few.
The agencies ARE having a problem...... They can not identify issues at
hand, can not hire, depend on temps and terms, send who they want to
training. H*ll they can not even identify FAA, NTSB, or even issues that
the military aircraft issues did not follow FAA standardization
procedures to be built and for years depended on those aircraft for
retardant delivery..
That is wrestling with yourself
I sure hope their qualification system works for them because it sound
like there is a lot of discontent out there and it also sounds like YOU
agency gods above a GS-12 better get ready for a lot of change
yourselves
I will always remember the 10 and 18's do work and do get "rerouted" on
the way to a fire or on the fireline.
Did I mention to you folks that I spent 500 dollars out of pocket for
TNC course that had S215, S234, S230 and I got to learn a lot outside of
the federal agencies.. A real learning experience, with varied
backgrounds former feds, contractors, etc
Currency issues???? 3 years for aviation, 5 years for fire? Is there
even a plan for folks who slip outside of currency to get contacted by
their agencies to get recurrent ? Is that what all those computer
programs I read about the agencies are for?
H*ll I wasn't even on the boards at Boise a year after I left fire and I
have gone to areas and agencies to show my interest to AD or get on
availability lists.
Standardization should have been looked at years ago but when everything
changes by god it looks all the same
All I can say is my heart is with fire I just accomplished a slash pile
burn 1/10 acre at 10 below zero in MN and still saw the power of Big
Ernie
With all these proposed IFPM changes Big Ernie is just waiting for you
to screw up and it may not even have anything to do with the 10's and
18's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leo K Larkin |
| 1/22 |
Oliver and GISgirl
There are additional tools that can be used with the production and use
of GIS products on an Incident. Radio coverage and repeater location was
mentioned. There is a readily available program out there called
RadioMobile. It can be downloaded from www.cplus.org and it uses the
public domain STRM terrain data from USGS. It will do coverage plots and
can be used to site repeaters. I used it on a fire last summer and use
it for analysis of agency repeater systems. A number of the COMLs and
COMTs have this program available on their computers when they arrive at
an Incident. The output can be georecitified and added to the ArcView/ArcGIS
projects. Both of these ESRI products can produce maps as .pdf files
which can be shared with all the crews on their computers.
Keep up the good work!
NVJims |
| 1/21 |
There's a new job advertisement on the Jobs
Page. Bridger Fire currently has an opening for an experienced
Engine Captain. Applicant must be willing to live within one hour of
Bozeman, MT. Ab. |
| 1/21 |
Ab,
A few days after the Cramer Fire, I sent in a sheet from my CISM team
with stress management techniques we suggest. Below are some of my
personal stress reduction tips for those in the USFS dealing with the
mess a year and a half later:
* Whenever someone in a meeting mentions OSHA, repeat the agency name 3
times, using the same snotty inflection as when the Brady Bunch sister
whines, "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!!!"
* Write a letter to your qualifications committee, asking that your ICT3
qual be amended to an "IC Type 3.7" and let them search the regs to
figure out whatever the hell that means.
* Use a whole bottle of Wite-Out on the next important inter-office memo
you write and add the explanation, "Redacted - FOIA Restricted
Material." Helpful hint: redact your own name first.
Have a nice weekend everybody.
vfd cap'nHaw, haw. Ab. |
| 1/21 |
Greetings again, all;
Vfd Cap'n sort of prooved the point I was trying to make with his
excerpts from the Cramer investigation report. The investigation
determined that the 10 and 18 were broken, and therefore people died and
the USFS wasn't to blame because the safety rules were not followed.
The very point is, kiddies, that if someone dies or gets injured on a
fire, there has to have been a failure in the 10 and 18. Using the 10
and 18 as judgment criteria doesn't work and doesn't provide any insight
as to the real causes of any accident. It just shifts blame.
We need a better way.
Class C Sagebrush Faller |
| 1 | |
