You may be surprised to see that the wildland firefighters actually addressed the lack of all options being laid upon the table. The NIMO study should have been thrown back by peer review but wasn't due to the groupthink mentality that was happening.

5. Subject: Update on the NWCG-sponsored NIMO Report (Agenda Item 7).

Discussion: The members were concerned that the NIMO Report was not looking at all options. The draft reports circulated to date have focused on conducting business through various sizes of national incident management organizations. When chartered, NWCG envisioned that the whole range of options for providing incident management services from the current militia approach along with combinations of a NIMO and militia or NIMO alone would be considered. The members want the entire range of options to be evaluated and requested that Jim Stires contact the NIMO Report group and arrange a conference call to discuss the status.

Since the NWCG Meeting, the NIMO Report group (aka NIMO MOT) contacted Jim Stires and requested modification of the report charter to include full agency participation so that the current situation could be evaluated. This is in line with the members desires as expressed at the 88th meeting so will be agreed to. The NIMO MOT also requests time at the January, 2004 NWCG meeting to provide members an update on the report. Time will be made on the January agenda for their briefing.

And then the land managers flexed their muscles against the fire managers.......

26. Update on the current status of the National Incident Management Organization (NIMO) process

Success is predicated on planning and implementing an aggressive landscape scale vegetative management program and nine key recommendations:

1. Improved Capacity and Capability: Change Federal agency policy to require employee support of incident management and develop incident management positive requirements for unit level agency administrators.
2. Type 3 IMTs: Significantly increase the number of Interagency Type 3 incident management teams.
3. Training: Streamline the NWCG fire training and qualifications program to reduce redundancy & more effectively focus on the needs of the various positions.
4. Legal Authorities: Improve and standardize the legal authorities to allow effective implementation of incident management across all levels of government.
5. NMAC IMT Management: The National MAC becomes responsible for standardization & mobilization of Type 1 and Type 2 incident management teams.
6. Non-traditional Partnerships: Actively seek partnerships with other federal agencies (i.e. EPA, Coast Guard, FEMA) to improve capacity for the development and utilization of incident management personnel for fire and non-fire incidents.
7. Improved Hiring Authority: Reduce dependency on retirees and improve the temporary emergency hiring authorities.
8. Standardized Contracts: Standardize pay rates, contracts, performance standards and common definitions of inherent government functions.
9. Complex Incident Management: Develop a new model for managing complex incidents that utilizes social values, significant resource values & cost/benefits in the decision making process.

An interagency implementation strategy will be required to address the specific aspects of this recommendation such as: chain of command, pay/grade structure, methods to include state and local government participation, duty stations, and administrative support structure.

Analysis Conclusion
The analysis did not find a silver bullet. None of the alternatives analyzed were affordable based on the current funding levels and structure. None reduce the reliance on the agency “militia” or increase the capacity at the local level to complete natural resource work. None of the alternatives provide a career path for employees interested in working in large incident management.

However, the team determined that hiring and developing a small number of employees with large incident management as their primary responsibility would result in significant benefits if implemented along with the key recommendations presented.

Action: Schedule presentation of final NIMO report for NWCG review and deliberation at the January meeting.

And with a conclusion like that, without field support... or peer review... we are damned once again to repeat unsafe acts.... Especially when we do not consider all views.

Gizmo

Fred

Check the Firefighter Safety Awareness Study in 3 phases on the Links page under Safety. Ab.

“The director of the BLM and I were on the scene at Storm King Mountain the day after 14 firefighters were killed when a seemingly benign fire erupted into a firestorm. As we stood on the slopes of Storm King Mountain, we took the oath that this would not happen again.”

Thomas also wrote in his speech,

“This may be a test, maybe the final test, of whether land management agencies have a future as presently configured. A review of literature will quickly show that there are questions, serious questions, from both ends of the political spectrum concerning the capabilities of the agencies to move boldly beyond deadlock to a means of active management.”

The land management agencies have repeatedly failed the test in their current configuration.

Thomas went on to say,

“It is my biased opinion that it is time to move beyond the concept of a firefighting organization, to a fire management organization. And that is under way. In such an organization, the focus is strictly on fire, whether on suppression or the application of prescribed fire. Personnel must be appropriately trained and retrained in fire behavior, fire ecology, firefighting, prescribed fire, public involvement, public affairs, personnel and resources management, leadership, air operations, etc. For these personnel, fire management would be a full-time job with appropriate career ladders.”

After repeated failures, the agencies have shown that they cannot be responsible for implementing cultural changes for safety. The Forest Service culture, for example, is deeply rooted in the management of the land, not the management of the firefighters and their safety. The agencies have also shown that they are unwilling or unable to implement the goals of the very study that they commissioned to improve safety.

The train is on the downhill leg with no brakes and a sweeping 180 degree turn approaching. The good thing is, the firefighters using situational awareness and recognition primed decisions, got off the train at the last station and insisted on a safe ride!!

Lobotomy

This realization would not be a copout but a truthful risk assessment that would allow development of realistic and achievable goals of firefighter and public safety regarding wildland and urban interface fires, not some pie in the sky list of 1000 rules to “keep us safe”.

I guess that is about all I have time to rant about today. Thanks for the opportunity to use my First Amendment Right.

Backburnfs

Olé

I was talking with a military friend the other day. He said it sounded like the firefighting agencies were undergoing the same kind of modernization  process the military had done. It was hard while it was happening, but better (streamlined, efficient, mission/vision driven) in the end. I don't know about that, but there is a lot of redundancy and lost efficiency in having all the land use agencies with their own fire departments, standards, training. Things have gotten so murky. I wouldn't mind merging them all, unless we all had to go under the Dept of Interior or the Dept of Homeland Security. I'd go for a new streamlined organization that has clear mission, vision, doctrine and a fire chief at the head.

Say we did go to a new agency. Anybody got ideas on how we'd accomplish the land use objectives that involve fire - like fuel reduction on forest/park/public lands etc? I guess I'm wondering about national implications beyond the safety, financial, streamlining benefits I can see for fire. Would the FS, BLM, NPS etc then contract for fire related services? Would the new organization and resources be spread out across the US with training centers located in more centralized specific places? I know I'm thinking logistics here, but what about taking an ICS approach and addressing some of the implications of making a change?

I also would like to see where the FS Fire Doctrinal Review stands. I wonder if the FS would consider centralizing fire and its other functions within the organization like a number of people suggested. Is the FS resistance to change so great that we'll eventually have to start over? sooner or later?

NorCal Tom

I'm thinking it should be seriously considered. We should at least have
an in-depth discussion of the pros and cons.

Mellie

PS Ab please add:
I'll be in Boise for the statue unveiling. Yippee. I'm looking forward to
hanging out with Vicki and Burk again and meeting Foundation people
I've talked with often -- Melissa and now Peggy who I hear has a lot
of initiative. <chuckle> I'm looking forward to meeting Shane's and
Jeff's families too and Debbie Miley from NWSA. Anybody that's
reading who can make it, come up and introduce yourself at the reception.
I hear the smokejumpers and hotshots will be there and some of the
NIFC folks. See ya soon!

Lobotomy

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation helps fallen and injured firefighters and their families but, in addition, has as its mission to honor and recognize ALL wildland firefighters. In accord with that mission, everyone is invited to a public recognition of wildland firefighters on Monday, May 2nd at 3:00 pm at the Boise Airport in Boise, Idaho. (Ab note: That's next Monday.)

At this event we'll be unveiling an 8-1/2 foot bronzed statue of a wildland firefighter holding a Pulaski. It is an honor to have Shane Heath and Jeff Allen's brothers unveiling the statue. The former Governor of Idaho and former head of the DOI, Cecil Andrus, will be receiving the statue. A reception will follow upstairs on the 3rd floor in the Boise River Room at the Boise Airport, with an open bar, appetizers, and program.

Readers, this statue is to recognize and honor ALL wildland firefighters and the work you do. It's to honor ALL of you.

This is the first of many statues that will be placed in public places across the US to recognize and affirm the work and service wildland firefighters provide to our country. This inaugural statue is sponsored through the generosity of the National Wildfire Suppression Association. To date, the NWSA has given more than $80,000 to support the Foundation. A big thank you to them for supporting this project.

Wildland Firefighting Community, this is your invitation to attend. We look forward to seeing you on May 2nd.

Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Look at COFMS, Central Oregon Fire Management Service. Works fine there.

Kirk

" Talk about a blast from the past with the Clear Creek stuff.
500 brand new pairs of Whites there with Marines in em."

In 2000, I was on the other side of the hill in the Bitteroot with a battalion from the 101st Division. We'd had them outfitted with logger-style boots, but they weren't in Whites - it was some fairly cheap brand of boot. When the assignment was over and the troops were getting back in uniform for the trip home, it was kind of astonishing to see the trash cans in their camp filled to overflowing with the logger boots. I guess some of the guys weren't that happy with those boots.

I took an Army ordnance battalion to a complex in Washington on '01, and they wore their regular-issue boots that time.

Kicks also said: " So that kinda gets me to wondering how many wildland folks we have here that started out with the military fire stint. Any stories?"

Every time I've worked with the military, there were always some people that seemed pretty interested in taking up fighting fire. There was this one time back in '88, I had some military crews on one of my divisions at one of the Yellowstone fires. I forget what unit they were, though I recall they were Army. But the Military Crew Liaisons (MCADs) for some of the crews were CDF guys that worked at CDF Conservation Camps. This one day in particular was a mop up day, and I was hanging out with the CDF guys while their crews were getting after it. One of the enlisted guys was apparently enjoying the work and the assignment, and he kept going on and on to the CDF MCAD for his crew about how as soon as he got out of the army. what he wanted to do, more than anything, was to fight fire.

The enlisted guy was pretty persistent talking about how much he wanted to fight fire, and he also kept saying that when he got out and went to fighting fire, he really, _really_ wanted to work for the CDF guy. Finally, after quietly listening to this for about twenty minutes, the CDF MCAD says to the enlisted guy, "You want to work for me? Tell you what - you get out of the Army, come to California, rob a liquor store, and I'll see what I can do for ya."

Apparently the enlisted guy hadn't figured out that CDF's Conservation Camp crewmembers are provided by the Calif. Department of Corrections.:

www.fire.ca.gov/php/fire_er_consrvncamp.php

I sometimes wonder if the guy ever got his wish.

BLM Bob

sorry to hear about don, he was a great guy. worked for him several times.

Ira

http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=1462

Regards,
Hugh Carson

Here are two photos from the Clear Creek Fire, 2000 for the military
firefighters who help us out. Thanks. (toward bottom: tents & transport)

Ab, I have some more.

NorCal Tom

Perfect. Here are all the pics together. Don Studebaker. Ab.

Well. . .uh, I'm only guess'in, but maybe nobody took a picture of y'all and sent it in? OA.

Are aging air tankers heading back too soon?

Forest Service may acquire more tankers like one in California crash

CA Governor promises to fund tanker fleet

Widows file suit over tankers

KID

John, good to have one of our community present when needed. Ab.

TC

Don 1, Don 2, Don 3

Thanks TC. Ab.

I fiddled around a bit and was able to transform the forward I got into a recognizable format.

the announcement is as follows:
CDF FIREFIGHTER WES GISSELL FUNDRAISER

THIS FUNDRAISER IS SOLELY TO PROVIDE FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO THE FAMILY OF FIREFIGHTER WES GISSEL. WES IS RECOVERING FROM A HORRIFIC ATTACK THAT HAS LEFT HIM NEEDING LONG TERM CARE. YOUR CONTRIBUTION WILL GO ENTIRELY TO WES’S FAMILY TO OFFSET THE ENORMOUS DEBT THEY CONTINUE TO SHOULDER, WHILE AIDING ONE OF OUR BROTHER FIREFIGHTERS.

PLEASE GIVE GENEROUSLY

- CDF Firefighter Valley Springs FFS West Point FFS
- BLM Hotshot Silver State Hotshots
- Previously injured in E4453 rollover in Southern California Summer of 2002

DONATIONS

- Cash accepted

- CDF Employees:
Make checks payable to:
KEN ONSTAD
BENEVOLENT FUND

- NON-CDF Employees:
Make Checks payable to:
GARY GISSELL
(Wes’s father)

NorCal Tom

AK Smokejumper Rookies 1993

SL

Martis Fire 2001 Truckee River

Found your website, great service...

Esther M

Welcome Esther. Thanks for the pic. Ab.

AT articles...
Widows of pilots take grief to court

Waterbombers to the rescue?
Giant Russian aircraft may be sent to replace grounded U.S. air tankers
(Good grief, I don't think so... Anybody know for sure?)

For the All Risk people:
Bright Idea: Los Alamos gear tracks hazardous plumes

For Retired L.A.V.E.
Fire tax re-emerges

So sorry to hear that Don is gone.

So sorry that Don is gone. Big boots to fill...

Don received the Cal Yarborough Award for outstanding Division Chief awarded in 2001 by the R5 Division Chiefs, USFS... to one of their own. Prestigious award, well deserved.

Amazing firefighter,
Amazing leader,
Amazing man.

Tahoe Terrie

As a FF that has worked all over the country I have always gotten a kick out of the prejudice/envy/mockery other regions have for R-5. Your link clearly shows that when other folks follow the lead of R-5, good things happen. The quote:

Brown and Lowe, however, insisted that the "unified command" system could have profound results in the fire-prone Black Hills. "They've used it for years in California," Lowe said. He spent most of his firefighting career there. Unified command is a management structure that allows various firefighting agencies to come together quickly to coordinate firefighting efforts." says volumes.

Other regions are also looking at R-5's cost apportionment model, because it works.

Folks need to just realize that when a certain area has more fire, in a more complex environment, before most other areas, they are bound to come up with better ways of doing business. It has nothing to do with elitism, it has to do with experience and practice.

Transplanted R-5er.

Hutch

Several unofficial exchanges with Don stick out in my mind (my Don Studebaker slide collection) - They all have such positive emotional charge...

• Sitting in the back row left side of the Division Chiefs meeting in the dark some years ago with him and Jeanne P-T, getting filled in (whispering) regarding large fire suppression costs, large fire's relation to failing to pick those fires up on IA, and the link between IA's success and resources (budgeted, funded, trained) and resource placement.
• The video of an IC telling a loafing crew they didn't "cut the mustard" in no uncertain terms.
• Talking with him one time over lunch in Sacramento about computer systems, simulation and training, IC3T certification, the timeframe everyone was operating under to get that done before fire season. He was so knowledgeable of fire, of his people, of strategy/tactics, of human factors, of the internet, of computer programming...
• A discussion of the probable future of the wildland firefighting organization given the current OIG involvement and its impact on safety.
• His announcement that he was finally retiring, his comment "I've traveled all over this country and you all should be proud of this BOD" and being so choked up when giving him a hug that I couldn't speak. We did talk that night at a party and he shared his plans, which did include fire and meant I wouldn't be loosing his presence, knowledge, and friendship entirely.

The wildland fire world is smaller for his passing. My life is much richer for his presence. I will not forget him. I would not be surprised if there will be moments when I will hear him in my mind reminding me to think about this or that in a particularly Studebaker firefighter way. I call such times my "studebaker moments". I am sure many others he interacted with and mentored have such rich and instructive memories.

My love and prayers for his family... I never had the good fortune to meet them in person, I can't imagine their loss.

My fire friends, take time to appreciate the people you admire, the people who have mentored you, the people who have made a difference in your lives. What we have for sure is the moment and the truth that lives in it. We need to tell people who make a difference thanks in the moment we can. I almost didn't give Don a hug that day because I was so choked up and a bit embarrassed at my feeling of loss. Thanks to the friend who prodded me to do it anyway.

Mellie

• First: Take a step back from all-risk for a few years till you have trained and competent crews in all-risk.
• Second: Create an interagency training center in region 5 for all-risk training with the facilities to give attending students some hands on experience while providing a safe atmosphere. Utilize the masses of structure firefighters in California as an experienced and well-trained Cadre. Run it a lot like the NIJAC program where trainees spend a one-month period for two consecutive years at this academy. Tie in with the local departments around the academy so that the students have a chance to ride along with a city or suburban department. To get a little “real world” experience under their belts.
• Third: Fight and get comparable salaries for firefighters to have retention and reduce the cost of constant re-training of new firefighters. Last of all at a forest level tie in more heavily with the local fire fighting agencies that currently are all-risk to help maintain the level of training and to keep abreast of new technology and tactics that are coming along in the industry.

We are facing the realities of an all-risk environment with the increasing number of homes being built along Forest Service and BLM boundaries. It is only natural that we will go all-risk. The question is will we go all-risk with all the tools in our toolbox or will the toolbox only be half full.

JB

Don's death is an incredible loss for the wildland firefighting world. Ab.

Thanks for the heads up. Ab.

An end to turf battles: New fire-fighting style tested at Camp 5 blaze
Rapid City Journal

"We came together as firefighters rather than as agencies."

Another SD firefighter, formerly of CA

Mellie

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks for directions to the AT message board Ab. My old bookmark hasn't
worked for a while.

If anyone would like to reply to Kimberly, I'm sure she'd like to hear. Ab.

I have had the opportunity to work with Capt. Paul Cockrell during his piloting of weather modification planes. Paul was one of the best, most knowledgeable pilots that I have ever met. He always made sure that he knew in technical details what was going on, so that he could do not just a good job, but the best job possible. I didn’t know the other captains on T-26, but I know they were Paul’s equals. All three will be greatly missed.

Andrew R.

Readers, in case you don't know, here's another place to express condolences to the pilots' families and friends and to find information on services and memorial funds: the Air Tanker Pilots & Friends Board. Click Commo in the header and follow the links to the message forum. Because of spammers, you sometimes need a registered sign-in to read and write to the forum, but not right now.

CDFer Brian Kornegay, has also placed a link on his Virtual Condolences website for the three T-26 crew members.

Our thoughts and prayers are with those who have lost loved ones. Ab.

Tanker pilots undergo extensive training before taking to the sky

Team spends day scouring tanker crash site

Readers, you can conduct your own search on various fire topics by going to our News page. Clicking on WLF News Search in the left-hand menu takes you to some standard google wildland fire news searches. Ab.

Several new job positions are being recruited for Engine Boss, Helitack Crew Members, and Helitack Supervisors. Locations vary. See the Jobs Page for the new ads and more details. Ab.

Remember, you are our family, too!

StumpShot

My condolences to friends and families of those lost in the crash of T-26. I think I speak for many groundpounders. What a tragedy.

3 Pilots Die in Crash of Firefighting Plane (with some comments on investigation)
ChicoER (CA -photo)
Daily Review (journalist is from Sacramento CA)
Washington Post
AZ Central
AZ Republic

Pilot killed Wednesday suffered tragedy when...

and on the upcoming IAWF Conference on Human Factors...
University of Montana will be site of wildfire summit

Aero Union, the California company that owns the plane, identified the three aboard as pilots Brian Bruns, Paul Cockrell and Tom Lynch.

We will will miss you all, so very much.
For the rest of the story:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=692573

DV

Just put out on the ABC News 1 hour ago.

The plane, a P-3 Orion tanker, went down Wednesday evening in a rugged area of the Lassen National Forest, about 120 miles north of Sacramento.

The steep terrain prevented a rescue helicopter from landing at the crash site, forcing search-and-rescue teams to hike two to three miles to reach the wreckage, forest spokeswoman Leona Rodreick said. "It's a fairly remote spot, and it took them a while to find a route in," Rodreick said. "There are no roads or trails."

The crash caused a fire that burned over two acres by Thursday, and a helicopter and 20 firefighters worked to contain the blaze, officials said.

Aero Union, the California company that owns the plane, identified the three aboard as pilots Brian Bruns, Paul Cockrell and Tom Lynch.

Willie-N

You transport folks certainly are an important part of the operation. As you mentioned, one of the Big Bar Complex bus drivers - Dick Blood - was stabbed to death in 1999.

I remember at least one story here of a bus driver who backed down a narrow track to "save" a crew that needed to move fast in front of a blowup. Needless to say, the crewmember who wrote was very appreciative.

We're happy to post photos of crew carriers, especially if they're in the field, have interesting action behind them, have flames or smoke column or have yellow-clad wildland firefighters around them. Some time back the Abs decided we won't make any more divisions of photo pages. It's just too much work. Please, though, we'd be happy to post your photos. Send 'em in. I'm sure we can find a good place for them. Ab.

Screen those puppies! Ab.

We've discovered a forum like theysaid is called a BLOG. There's a reason that regular newspaper journalists and regular news media are concerned about blogs. People are sharing information on these forums person to person and beyond, and they're not journalists. On theysaid, they're professional firefighters from all over the country and sometimes the world.

Gizmo, our website provides a "statistics report" of general categories of viewers. They show your posts on theysaid are read by all of the interagency fire "categories" in this country and around the world. Theysaid is read by the white house sometimes, by congress, at least the staffers, and by the judicial branch of government. It's read by school kids and aspiring young firefighters, by college kids doing research and building websites, by teachers looking for lesson plans on fire and the environment, by environmentalists. Folks want to know what you're thinking for all kinds of reasons. I'm not surprised. Some good research is done by our dedicated contributors and, ya gotta admit, we do have experienced, knowledgeable and informed posters. We also have entertaining posters, story tellers, poets, people who occasionally rant, vent, stubbornly defend their position, and quirky characters who must'a written in at 3AM.

In the mid to late '80s and early '90s there was talk that the internet would change society because it provides a new "leveling" form of delivery for information exchange. How true that is: the carrier pigeon, printing press, pony express, mass transit, the telegraph, telephone, the television, transatlantic and transpacific cables, satellites, the laser all impacted society. More recently they've been joined by fiberoptics and the internet, and soon, real-time information exchange over all kinds of wireless apparatus, cell phones, plus tv, radio, etc. Boggles the mind.

I pointed out to Original Ab during the primary elections last year that he had created one of the earliest blogs that today is still in existence. We had a good laugh. Neither he nor I named it blog. That's a contraction of "web log". Any marketer would tell you it's not a pretty name for something as cool as theysaid. However, blog may be fitting. It has a kind'a "go ugly early", tongue-in-cheek humorous, wildland firefighter type quality to it.

Ab.

Due to the crash of T-26 yesterday, Forest Service aviation has requested a
stand down of the P-3 fleet for pilot safety. As soon as we know the
duration of this stand down, we will pass that information to everyone. At
this point we have very little information on the incident with T-26, but
will share that too once an official release becomes available.

Chuck Wamack,
Assistant Center Manager, BLM
National Interagency Coordination Center

Stay heads up.

NorCal Tom.

Here's a link to testing that FEMA is doing

FEMA tests digital alert system
Technology will send messages to wireless devices, radio, TV and the Internet: some excerpts...

The system is currently being tested in the DC area. As someone mentioned, not everyone has access to tv or radio. Broadening the alerting system to all kinds of wireless devices and the internet makes sense in the case of evacuations.

and

[Gary Jones said] officials are asking participants to provide feedback on how well they received the message, whether it was in the right format and whether they were able to re-transmit the message to their customers.

and

By law, the national Emergency Alert System (EAS) reaches 95 percent of the population mainly through TV and radio broadcasts, Hoover said. But not everyone has a television or radio or is constantly watching or listening to them.

"By transitioning to this datacasting technology, you'll get that message if you've got a cell phone or a pager or a [Research in Motion] BlackBerry, or you're sitting on your computer or on your home telephone for that matter," Hoover said. "We think that the capability and reach will not be 100 percent but certainly approaching that."

Interesting times on the interface
Be Safe

Tone-deaf

Notes are in red.

R6 F/F

Ab would be happy to forward the application flyer to anyone requesting it.

Mellie

My condolences. This is just terrible.

NorCal CDF

PS: Ab, please add this. Jake who owns and operates Northern California Live just
posted it on the AT message board: location 40deg00.2 x 121deg 42.5

more: www.modbee.com/state_wire/story/10349838p-11155192c.html

Aero Union tanker crashes: Three crew members believed to be dead
www.chicoer.com/Stories/0,1413,135~25088~2828156,00.html

Sorry that's all I know.

John Fisher

Readers, we appreciate any heads up on accidents. We don't post without verification that the families are alerted and cared for, but we do let the WFF know so they can make arrangements to help the families asap if help is needed. I posted this on 4/21 although it came in last night. Ab.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The Mendocino National Forest
cordially invites you to attend
The Dedication Ceremony
For
The Rattlesnake Fire Overlook

Saturday, July 9, 2005
10:00 to 11:00 a.m.

Forest Highway 7 (S.R. 162); then 2 miles up Old Alder Springs Road from
the Forest Service boundary sign
(40-minute drive west of Willows, CA)
(parking at Gillaspy Ranch and Firefighter Memorial, with shuttle bus service to the site beginning at 8:30 a.m.)

Ceremony
10:00 a.m.

Optional guided hikes along the trails where the fatalities occurred
11:15 a.m.

Jensen Park, Willows, for No Host gatherings/picnics
Noon to 5:00 p.m.

Questions? Contact Phebe Brown, Public Affairs Officer,
at 530.934.1137, email pybrown @ fs.fed.us,
or mail 825 No. Humboldt Ave., Willows, CA 95988

The Overlook will have interpretive exhibits describing the events of the Rattlesnake Fire on July 9, 1953, that claimed the lives of 15 firefighters. This was one of the deadliest fires in Forest Service history and afterward generated many of the standard safety practices used today to protect wildland firefighters. The exhibits at the site were developed in partnership with California Dept of Forestry and Fire Protection, California Ranch, and Glenn County Fire Chief's Assn. The site will be will be open for use by the general public and will also be used by new and veteran firefighters in their training.

Preliminary 2005 Seasonal Fire Weather / Fire Danger Outlook for the Northwest Geographic Area

R6er

Ab put the nuts and bolts of the report in html since I couldn't find it on the internet. If anyone would like the original word document and/or the single powerpoint image showing the national fire potential outlook, Ab will send it.

Heads up folks.
Ab.

A permanent link to NWSA is located on the Classifieds page. Ab.

Haw haw. Wicked mind. Yeah, both are legit, both are wildland firefighters with no product to sell. Ab.

I don't have the 72 hr. report here at home, but the upshot was:
kick back + broken chain brake = injury to face and teeth.
He apparently had all PPE except long sleeves.

BB

eric

SoCal FF

It is but we don't have it. Ab.

The CAP: What, Why and How
www.incident.com/cap/what-why-how.html

SR

Thanks for that. Ab.

Thanks for your re-affirmation of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, Lori. We're also thankful for their work.

We Abs don't think people are skeptical either. While some people may not be convinced enough to donate right this minute, I think most see the need. If not now, I hope they'll contribute as soon as they can. All our families deserve the backup. Paypal makes it easy.

Vicki, Melissa and Burk have always said the Foundation is a funnel, a way for us wildland firefighters of all kinds to support our firefighter families who've lost a breadwinner. To have money and resources ready to go out when needed, there need to be donations coming in. I know for a fact that money that has gone out to our families every year has pushed right up close to the money that's come in. Growth of the 52 Club is helping. Lori, thanks again for your positive voice. Ab.

The geospatially oriented public warning system is called the Common Alerting Protocol. It's not a system but a medium for transmission of the emergency messages that are shared among agencies or between agencies and individuals. Its acronym is CAP. (I guess they rejected the kind of logical naming terminology that came to my mind above as being too prone to misinterpretation?)

I've heard rumors that fire might be involved.

My opinions:

All kidding about naming aside, fire moves FAST on the Wildland Urban Interface across the West. Arizona, Colorado, Montana, Idaho, California, you name the state, the interface is the reality.

SoCal 2003... This Ab was scrambling here for days to get timely info out to a clamoring Public during the 2003 socal firesiege because NO INFO was available online over that late-Friday-Saturday-Sunday time period. Very little info was even available via the media except on local news. (Have you noticed events that happen on weekends are not as important?)

Most of you regular CA readers and contributors were working on that fire. I called some of you personally for updates. (Thanks.) I called Information Officers at Incident Command Posts. The phone lines were often busy. LA City, LA County, Santa Barbara City, Santa Barbara County had nothing on their websites about where the fires were and who was being evacuated. No one there was even answering their office phones with information. They were off fighting the fires. CalMAST - JIC, they weren't yet up to speed. A small southern sierra website (in an area adjoining San Bernardino NF) folded because of bandwidth use, ISP fines and cost overload. We were getting many hundreds of inquiries here as we had gotten them during the Arizona and Colorado fires. (Luckily (?) we had been fined earlier in the season for bandwidth overuse when some NOVA program linked to us; as a result, we had just bought a larger site for wildlandfire.com.) We kept our CA Fires 2003 up to date in the basics, with links to the local internet media and to other sites when we could find them, even to mom and pop websites with questionable information. The Public was in a panic. Their relatives across the country were worried. SoCal residents couldn't get information. They could see the flames, were choked by the smoke, and many didn't know what to do. I'm sure it was the same on the Rodeo-Chedeski and Hayman Fires.

It was even harder to get information on other fires that roared to life and encircled communities further south. In spite of web searching and calling, I was not able to find much info on the San Diego Area - Cedar Fire - and others near Mexico. It's like that area of southern California is a Black Hole when it comes to ANY internet fire info.

Easier and more timely ways to alert our Public is a MUST. How many lives might have been spared on the Cedar Fire if we had CAP ringing people's cell phones telling them to leave NOW and what routes to avoid because they were compromised by fire? Lives could be saved.

I think the HUGE risk here is that ICs and Incident Management Teams get saddled with yet another function or responsibility that is neither supported nor funded and it's not about fighting fire in the woods or on our public wildlands, per se. Heck, our wildland firefighters didn't have enough time to complete pencil and paper checklists with the 2003 fires moving as they did. Counties have traditionally had the responsibility for fire evacuation unless we're talking about clearing out campgrounds on federally managed lands. Such evacuations are not covered in the FS mission statement unless you take "serving people" out of context and interpret it in that way.

Think of it. If these things are coming - Common Alerting Protocol - and they are, how can CAP be implemented REALLY? Who will do that? With what systems? With what money? (Maybe more important to firefighter managers reading here is who becomes criminally liable if the system fails and people die?)

• The FS has lost its Information Technology folks from the forests where the interface fires rage (...along with the Finance people who knew the fire cooperators... and the $$$ millions to finance those reorganization moves got pulled out of the fire and fuels budgets allocated by congress!).
• There's pressure to reduce IMT size. Earlier this year Boise was saying, "Order the IT people and wait until they can be dispatched; don't worry you will eventually get who you need." Would that delay have cost lives on the Hayman Fire?

Who else could possibly manage the Common Alerting Protocol system of the future? The state of CA (or AZ or OR, etc) is not equipped. Have you even seen CDF's computers lately? One more year and they could be sold in a "retro" vintage computer shop. They need upgrading. We are not a third world country! What about counties, cities taking on CAP? I hope long before the CAP "tone" needs to hit the airwaves that the program gets reasonably funded, staffed, and implemented.

It would make sense to me that we have a two pronged approach, PUSH and PULL:
1) an appropriately managed and funded Common Alerting Protocol that ICs push information to instead of having their dispatch call county.
2) one stop real-time fire info shopping online with real time data on fire perimeters, evacuation instructions, etc. It's much more cost effective in time and money and Public reassurance for people to "pull" the info they need off the dynamic real-time web when they need it to keep themselves and their loved ones safe, whether it's info on fire perimeter, pet shelter availability or evacuation. There needs to be ONE OFFICIAL PLACE online with robust bandwidth capabilities, not the redundancy of sites that may be up or down depending on day of the week, bandwidth overload, etc.

Ab.

Thanks for the info Victoria. The system used has to be able to handle the internet traffic. Ab.

It is all about getting on the same page with training. If there are national
standards I think a F/F would be a fool to not get trained to that level.
If you don't you can't play in every way. I hope those "short hour" training
courses in OR are not misrepresenting what they offer and what certs F/F
completing the training will receive.

I have heard all the qualifications are going online soon. People and
resources will be tracked. Individual certs will be a matter of instant record.
When that happens F/F who do not have minimum training will get left out
or worked around in spite of MOUs. The excellent contractors see the
writing on the wall and have set a standard. Professionals police each other.

In my experience there's never enough time in courses to share the "slides"
that might save someones life. How much time is there for examples in a
short course?

I need and use every minute of the real-deal courses.

OR Trainer

I was talking with a friend last night about the technology posts. She said that after the South Asia tsunami the cell phone companies got together, identified the areas people might have died in, located the cell phones operating within those gps areas and sent a text message to all the cell phones. It asked people who received the message to reply. As a result of responses thousands were taken off the missing persons lists.

I can see this working in a similar way for evacuations whether for wildland fire on the interface or in a large scale terrorist attack. We needed a better system to evacuate citizens in the socal fires of 2003. I heard that some high muckity mucks with homeland security and affiliated all risk fire departments are working on testing this kind of system.

Does anyone know more?

NorCal Tom

is there a way that blm or fs could check that?
if we're already on a state fire will the feds keep us if it goes big?

rosie

NWCG is aware that there have been courses presented in an abbreviated form, varying greatly from the suggested course hours. Instructors and students are cautioned that in order to be recognized as an NWCG certified course, certain guidelines must be followed:

• Lead instructors are encouraged to enhance course materials to reflect the conditions, resources and policies of the local unit and area as long as the objectives of the course and each unit are not compromised.
• Exercises can be modified to reflect local fuel types, resources and conditions where the student will be likely to fill incident assignments. The objectives and intent of the exercises must remain intact.
• Test questions may be added that reflect any local information that may have been
  
  added to the course. However, test questions in the certified course materials should not be deleted to ensure the accurate testing of course and unit objectives.
• Test grades, to determine successful completion of the course, shall be based only on the questions in the certified course materials.

COURSE LENGTH FOR NWCG COURSES

If a course is available through PMS, the recommended course hours and the “NWCG Position on Course Presentation and Materials” WILL be adhered to by the course instructors.

Lobotomy

I am concerned that you are being mislead, the link that was given to you by Frustrated in Region 6 to the DPPTS training site, is training that is being given to structure fire departments NOT private Sector Contractors. Under the MOU with Region 6 we are required to meet the 310-1 training requirements just as the agencies are and in NWSA we even encourage our members to exceed that level. I would welcome you to attend one of our NWSA Conferences and our annual Mandatory update sessions for our certified instructors to see the level of training required and the quality of instructors being used. Please visit our website at www.nwsa.us and click on training to see how it is done in the private sector.

Debbie Miley

AV

I see the message for the day is on the blink. Ab.

I remember reading Mr. Weavers anguish filled article regarding the Thirty Mile incident in a forestry type publication I can't remember the name of. I also remember Rep. Cantwell screaming that heads would roll, there will be hell to pay if this ever happens again, the USFS doesn't take care of its employees, etc.(Thirty Mile happened in an election year, don't forget that bit of timing to draw maximum political interest.) Then came the passage of legislation that calls for investigations for USFS personnel any time there is a fatality. Never mind that this bill fails to recognize that BLM, BIA, USFWS, and NPS all train wildland suppression resources and could have fatality fires right alongside the USFS, especially in this new age where you go to a class for 40 hours and know all there is to know about fire behavior.

If one fed agency is to be scrutinized in their actions when several other agencies contribute to the same effort, then all those agencies should be covered under the same legislation.

Personally, as a wildland fire decision maker I wouldn't do a thing without liability insurance in this day and age.

One last thing. After reading Mr. Weaver's article, I did an extensive amount of Thirty Mile mitigation training for the forest I was on the next spring. Then I read the article again. My conclusion: All the folks that listened to the CRWB and the CRWB(T) and did as they were instructed are still here and the folks that decided to follow someone else's instructions are not. So was it inexperience, disregard for peoples safety , or a crew cohesion problem? Also, regarding Thirty Mile, was told several months ago not to respond to any attournies that may or may not come sniffing/sliming around asking questions about how we train our new folks in the use of fire shelters and what we tell them that a shelter will endure.

Be safe and be cautious. Lots of ways to be taken down in a career ending s##t storm.

Joe

Victoria, do you know how it handles lots of viewers? Ab.

"Storm Hawk is the ultimate in portable weather forecasting technology. Using GPS technology and wireless or satellite communication, Storm Hawk provides weather information in real-time through a personal digital assistant (PDA) - on demand, wherever you are, 24-hours-a-day. It tracks your route of travel and anticipates weather movement to provide weather hazard warnings. On a PDA, the weather data is displayed with high-quality mapping imagery that is always oriented to your location and moves as you move. With constant tracking of your movement, you can quickly and accurately determine your location and any weather hazards ahead."

My question is, why aren't we using this kind of technology in fire??? Holy cow, that would be useful. Anyone have any ideas what's going on with this kind of neat stuff and fire, if anything? My imagination is coming up with some pretty cool ideas, but I'm not sure where to go with them...

Thanks-

-out of my element

Interesting technology, for fire we could have real time incident mapping; residents could have real time information, say text messages over cell phones or PDAs, about fire perimeters and what areas were being evacuated. In a situation like the Hayman, Rodeo-Chedeski Fires, or socal fires we wouldn't have to worry so much about the time it takes fire dispatch to alert the county sheriff and the county people to evacuate the public. On federal lands there would also potentially be faster evacuations by the FS, NPS, BLM, NPS. Right now in the case of fire or emergency, the public is alerted with sirens, tv, radio. Sometimes the tv or radio is not turned on. We live in times of new technology. Lots of cell phones out there. There should be new processes. Interesting thoughts... Without a push will fire test and implement anything like this anytime soon? Ab.

Example: my IQS card lists my qualifications and the geographical level (Agency or National) that I can perform the duties of the position. From ICT1 Trainee at the National Level to AREP at the agency level with stops at OSC1 DIVS and even staging area manager (saving this for retirement).

I hope you solve your problems... we have solved most of ours through interagency fire schools, table top exercises, playing in each others sand boxes, local operating plans, MOUs, and over a beer or two at the local pub. Some of the volunteer fire districts still need additional experience and training to take on more wild land responsibilities but most have adopted a Wild land IQ system and are making large gains. Contract resources continue to improve but still lag in some areas.

By the way... I don't recall any of the recent investigation reports stating an additional 8 hours of class time for a non fed fire fighter would have prevented an accident or criminal actions being filed against a fire manager. I do recall the OIG report from Cramer talking about contract resources and poor performance of those resources on Cramer. This needs to be investigated and dealt with to determine if the poor performance was due to lack of training, inadequate supervision, experience levels or just a bad contractor... In addition we need to determine what effect their poor performance had on the management of the fire if any.

Oliver

Glad yer reading VRB. We miss your contributions. Ab.

• Failure of the NWCG Interagency Business Practices Committee (IBPWT) over a period of five years to establish fair, just rates for AD firefighters, and agency misuse of the 1951 AD Pay Authority to utilize a “quick, cheap source of labor” to supplement incident staffing,. The agency position is that the 1951 Authority was never meant to provide pay equality. ADFA’s response to this -- and the continued use of the AD Hiring Authority -- is that it is an archaic, outmoded hiring method that was never meant to hire supplemental firefighters other than literally “off the street.”
• Failure of agency fire managers, including the NWCG, to provide oversight over the products of the IBPWT, which appears to be working at cross purposes to agency fire operations managers
• Significant resistance to alternative methods such as utilization of personal service contracts and the OPM Waiver of Dual Compensation Reduction For Rehired Annuitants
• Discriminatory treatment of AD firefighters; awkward, inefficient, and non-standard processes and procedures relating to AD hire
• The resultant loss of desperately-needed expertise of some AD firefighters who found AD Pay Rates and treatment demeaning and insulting and who no longer participate (an ongoing process)
• The refusal in 2005 – as well as in past years - by many agency dispatch offices to sign up AD firefighters due to concerns regarding training and experience documentation, liability, etc. We recognize the issues involved, particularly due to Cramer Incident concerns. However, to date we are not aware that any direction has been provided from agency national offices to facilitate AD signups.
• The prediction of another disastrous fire season in many areas of the country, coupled with the inability of agencies to staff Incident Management Teams (as much as 25% of teams are comprised of ADs), dispatch offices, and miscellaneous overhead positions, further exacerbated by the above refusal of offices to sign up ADs

Complete background of the entire AD issue can be found via
AD Firefighter Association (ADFA) Legislative/Media Information Page. The documents contain the entire history of our correspondence with the agencies, FAQs, pay inequality analyses, ADFA’s proposed 2005 interim rates, etc. and other documents of interest.

ADFA has attempted to work with the agencies for two years, all to no avail. Given this, our communications with our elected representatives became absolutely necessary.

The long and short of it is, the AD Pay Authority is an archaic, broken system that has been used inappropriately. It should be replaced as soon as possible.

ADFA is in this for the long-haul. The agencies can view ADFA as a danger to be fought tooth-and-nail at every turn, with the ultimate outcome that ADs will leave the workforce in droves.

Or, they can view our efforts as an opportunity to work cooperatively towards a viable, long-term solution that will meet the challenges of incident staffing in the 21st century, with fair, equitable pay and treatment for equal work.

We encourage the agencies to select the latter course. ADFA has proposed the following:

1. Rescind the 2005 Pay Rates issued March 24, 2005 and establish fair, realistic rates for the 2005 fire season.
2. Request an extension of OPM’s Waiver of Dual Compensation Reduction for Rehired Annuitants and establish procedures that are realistic. Any retiree should be able to be hired back without penalty as a Rehired Annuitant during any emergency incident, regardless of fire preparedness levels.
3. Utilize contractors and/or personal services contracts to access individuals who were part of the AD workforce. ADFA advocates this as the long-term viable solution and that coincides with the Administration’s emphasis on outsourcing and market competition.

It is abundantly clear that a new approach to this AD firefighter issue needs to be taken:

• All stakeholders, including ADFA, must be involved;
• Outside, objective subject matter workforce experts need to be involved;
• Agency contracting personnel should be represented to assist in evaluating the needs of implementing ADFA Recommendation #3;
• A Congressional liaison should be identified to address legislative challenges that are identified
• A high-level Agency Administrator should oversee the process

Interested ADs who are not yet members of ADFA can sign up at www.adfirefighter.org. (live link above)

Individuals who are concerned about this issue can access name/address/fax information for all elected national and gubernatorial representatives via links at www.adfirefighter.org (look for Legislative and Media Tool Kit).

Hugh Carson
Chair, AD Firefighters Association
E-Mail: adfa@rmci.net

On behalf of the ADFA Board, as well as ADFA Membership, plus all ADs who have no representation
<snip> go to the ADFA site to see who the board members are and their contact info.

I posted a question regarding boot selection and got a hugely appreciated response (I opted for the White's...gotta keep the dogs happy, right?), but now I'm wondering: How does the USFS go about outfitting their firefighters? I'm a big guy, and so I'm not only wondering about the nomex workwear and its sizing, but various webgear and accessories as well. Do you folks commonly buy your own lighter-weight/more breathable/more functional, etc. gear? Do you get a "uniform" allowance? Just wondering what some thoughts are...

Thank You Kindly for any input!!!

Donovan

www.oregon.gov/DPSST/FT/docs/FireCoursesDateOrder.pdf

well here is another fine link to training but how come the state agencies don’t need to follow the law? they say the classes are nwcg approved but how can that be when s-230 takes 24 hours not counting s-231... but these people are doing it in one weekend and we wonder how we get so many incompetent fire leaders out on the fire line???

frustrated in r-6

Yeah, so Congressional bureaucrats are getting Office of Inspector General (IG) bureaucrats to go after wildland firefighters. What an exciting and new endeavor for OIG, much more interesting than investigating fraud. If I were them I would widen the exciting search so I could re-define my whole job along those new much more interesting lines! (new backdoor way into the adrenalin-pumping area of fire? R3 Joe, I liked your viagra comment before you deleted it.)

There's a rumor that DOJ (Justice) didn't want to be the hatchet man for OIG. Maybe some fed lawyers have integrity and justice in mind?

There's a rumor Congress didn't want to do it but did it anyway. Their excuse "We didn't know...!!! We didn't expect...!!!" Maybe some in congress have integrity? LAME! They didn't ask any wildland firefighters the implications of their exciting potentially unfair law. They didn't ask about IMPLICATIONS... for our safety lessons learned procedures, for the ICS system of the country. They didn't PLAN FOR what was likely to come next!

Tell me where to sign up for letter writing. I'll do it. I'll get my family to write and call too. Maybe we could decide on a plan and come up with points to make. There are some congressional representatives who are beginning to be educated on firefighter safety issues.

Tahoe Terrie

Quotes from lawyers who know the system and federal law. Comments anyone?

LB

Your Legal Shelter in the Post Thirtymile and Cramer Environment

The first major problem arising from this post-Thirtymile Fire investigative landscape is the reality that dedicated federal employees involved in the very dangerous profession of fighting wildland fires will now be considered for criminal prosecution simply for trying to do their jobs.

(And)

In our opinion, this precedent of criminally prosecuting well intentioned federal employees involved in a dangerous profession is a bad one to set.

(And)

The second problem associated with this new investigative landscape is that the IG for the USDA does not have expertise in running a manslaughter investigation, nor does it have any experience in investigating wildland firefighting accidents.

Interestingly enough, this lack of experience in investigating firefighting fatalities has resulted in the IG relying heavily on the Forest Service’s Accident Investigation – a result Congress specifically did not want in enacting the new law.

With regard to the IG’s lack of experience in investigating supposed manslaughter crimes, this is because the IG’s statutory mandate is to investigate matters associated with fraud, waste and abuse of government funds or authority

It has been our experience that the federal entity that usually investigates fatalities involving federal officials/employees is the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI). The FBI and local law enforcement typically investigate all accidental shootings by federal employees (Border Patrol, INS agent, etc.) that result in injury or fatality, and it has been our experience that these federal officials are cleared by the FBI of any criminal wrongdoing within 24 to 48 hours of the shooting. Based on our experience in the very first IG investigation conducted under this new authority into the Cramer Fire, and the fact it resulted in an active criminal investigation achieving a criminal disposition for one employee (the Incident Commander), we are left with the distinct impression that criminal prosecutions will be aggressively considered in every burnover and entrapment fatality, which is unlike the outcome of other accident related fatalities occurring throughout the federal government.

The unveiling of our first Wildland Firefighter Foundation statue in the Boise airport sounds good. (Thanks WFF.) If you're going to attend the IAWF Conference in Missoula the week before, take a few days vacation and consider dropping down to Boise on Monday. If you're going to the 100 year anniversary of the FS in Boise on Tuesday, consider going a day early. Or go to the statue unveiling, check out the Foundation (smell those t-shirts!) and take in the FS 100 year anniversary the next day. Sounds like Boise will be the popping place early that week. There are some pretty direct flights there and fares are still low for a few more days if you buy tickets now.

Yactac, thanks for the reminder, Dude. I've read that Commander's Intent article front to back several times. Good one. I think you recommended it to me 2 years ago... Oh my, do we have an ongoing long term-relationship? <chuckle> All in good fun. You know how I admire and love so many of you!

Competent, thanks for the excellent article on competence. Ab, you should put that on Docs Worth reading.

Re the law criminalizing firefighters: I heard a month ago that there are lawyers who are experts in the federal legal process; they're talking with members of Congress to try to make the process fair (if that's possible). It seems unfair to me that Congress did not consult wildland firefighters to determine the far-reaching implications of such a law, including implications for safety, failure to renew red card quals, etc. In any case, here's the article that Ab posted some time back that was written by those authors. Professional Liability Insurance Your Legal Shelter in the Post Thirtymile and Cramer Environment Maybe FWFSA and this wildland fire community can also inform Congress. If we need to write letters or make phone calls, FWFSA, please let us know.

I hope all managers will get the liability insurance. Here's my overall argument on why get liability insurance. The link to the insurance company is halfway down my piece. (No, the insurance company is not paying me; it just makes sense. Right now those who have the insurance are not having to "cut a deal" to avoid criminal charges.)

On another note, I heard that the WO Fire Director announced in the CIIMT Meetings last week that the National Leadership Team has approved the concept of working on Doctrinal Change. I think that means the Pulaski Conference Ab mentioned some time back has officially been blessed.

Have a good weekend all. Relatives and friends across the US say the central states, SW, PNW are already burning and drier than usual. (Thanks Firescribe for the links.) I know we say it every year, but this could be a BIG one. Be ready, be safe. Whatever you do, make sure your tactics fit the changing fire behavior. LCES! Firefighter safety first! Houses can be rebuilt.

Mellie

Thanks NOTA. I researched this last year and put the answer I found on the FAQ page. If you find anything different, let me know. Behind the scenes, someone sent in a German contact for Paul. There's a German group that fights fire in Greece every summer. Ab.

Thanks,

BLM R4

Look at this neat wildland firefighter story site I found.

www.berkeley.edu/news/media/students/2002/fire/bio.html

SoCal CDF

Matt is part of this community... Ab.

Paul, I know of no other way. Ab.

“Three members of the Forest Service came to our home with the first details of the tragedy. They described an out of control wildfire that blew up quickly, trapping and burning my son to death. They said it was no ones fault, an act of God.

Over the next days and weeks, more details became available, and the picture that emerged was something quite different from an act of any God I know. The fire was indeed out of control, but had been for more than four hours. This crew was led down a dead end road in a steep box canyon with a plan that was later determined to have no chance of success. In all, the people who were supposed to be protecting Devin’s life violated every single rule of safety on the books. They ignored every single warning sign present, abandoned all common sense, and could not exercise even minimal command authority after they were entrapped.

And so it is that an Incident Commander can abandon his responsibility to his crew, break every rule, ignore every watch out point, suspend his common sense, exercise no leadership, cause the death of his crew members, and simply be reassigned. No fines, no loss of wages or rank, just reassignment.

It seems like a bad dream, but it’s not. It’s a nightmare from which I will never awaken. I will spend the rest of my life marking time until I see my best friend again. A lifetime before I can hug him. A lifetime before I laugh at his humor, before I see his broad smile. A lifetime before the circle will be unbroken.”

So I guess that whether you think the PL 107-203 and how it is being implemented is a good or bad thing depends on whether you are an overworked, multitasking IC, Ops, Chief Officer on a unit that has holes in its organization and priorities other than fire and fire training or are you the parent, sibling, child or partner of one of the deceased............

You make the call……..

yactak

Thanks for the perspective, yactac. Remembering those who died. Ab.

What an excellent article on competence. During the L-380 I brought up the very same issue during the portion on the "Johari Window". The issue I had with this was that the window where you are unaware of your own traits -that other people are aware of but don't tell you- should be resolved by seeking feedback. I brought up a point that others aren't generally willing to give honest feedback. This article seems to confirm my view but does little to resolve it (neither did the instructor). Seeking feedback is one of the greatest traits of a competent leader, but are you getting honest feedback, and does your competency level allow you to improve with feedback? My resolution? Be honest with those you work for and those who work for you. If you have a sub-ordinate who is generally incompetent, don't pass the buck. Make him/her aware of incompetencies and help improve them. Be honest, I continually receive feedback, overhead evals, etc... that are nothing more than routine. Why won't anybody come straight out and say" Boy, you really blew it here" or " You really need to work on this". Sure I may get upset, defensive, or even retaliatory but I assure you I will spend a lot of time thinking about what I was told.

How many "rants" posted here complain of an FMO or Supt. who, in the ranter's mind, is incompetent. Have you told them? We'll never know what people say behind our backs until it's said to our face, and until someone does we'll keep doing the same things.

AARs are another great way to find our communication shortcomings but the portion of the AAR that really helps you is often overlooked. "What was planned?" Ask your first year person this and tell them that if they didn't know the plan to be honest. If their perception of the plan differed from what your "Intent" was or they flat out didn't know the plan, take a long hard look at your communication skills and your briefing routine.

Most of all continually seek honest feedback. "What are you guys saying behind my back?"

DS

Here's a report on a fire that burned Tuesday. It shows what may be in store in SoCal, from CDF - MVU, San Diego area.
JS

To: Chuck
Cc: MVU Chiefs; MVU Battalion Chiefs; MVU Ramona Air Attack Base
Subject: CA MVU 002516 Harrison Fire

I am providing you with some photos and details concerning the fire today, April 12, 2005, at the toe of Palomar Mountain. Copter 303 was out continuing its training missions with the San Diego Sheriff’s Office Fire Pilot program. We had started our training/recon in the Deluz/Tenaja area and continued along the Riverside/San Diego county line up and over the Palomar State Park Campground. We continued on to the East for a bit more then turned south to make our way back to Gillespie. FC Ted Schaffer was as the right rear door continuing his Helitack training with us at Gillespie when he spotted what looked like a burn job putting up light smoke to the west. FC Schaffer asked to fly over the area check out how close to the brush the burn job was. Coming from the east, we were unable to see the cause of the smoke as it was on the west facing slope and up the first few switchbacks of Harrison Grade Rd North of Hwy 76. At this time, I glanced at my watch and noted the time of 15:22 hrs and commented that if it was a burn job, it was after hours and we should investigate further and pass it on. As we flew around the ridge to see the origin, we realized that this was a wildland fire that had started from the edge of the road. The fire appeared to be very narrow, running upslope and about 50 to 75 feet long from the road to the head. I realized this fire had started within the last few minutes and I looked up and down Harrison Grade Rd to look for vehicular traffic and noted none. I gave a very quick report of conditions to MVICC on the way down to a landing zone to offload the Helitack Captains and release the tank snorkel so the ship could go to work. We hitched a ride with B3317 to the fires edge and got to work.

That is the fire’s background, now for a PHOTO...

1. The brush looks green. No great surprise with all the rain we had. The fire burned the vegetation cleanly to the ground with little left over. This is also no great surprise. From the air, the brush has a nice green canopy with some new growth on it. On the ground and beneath the canopy is the same dead brush we had last year and the year before that and so on.... It was dead yesterday and it will be dead tomorrow, all summer and will stay readily available until either it's burnt or decomposes.
   
2. Although it would appear to be a roadside arson fire, the cause was still under investigation as of our release. I noted that the grass near the road was still primarily green with some dead grass from last year. There appeared to be very little grass in the majority of the fire area.
   
3. This was a fuel and topographically driven fire.
   
4. Note the tree mortality above the fire to the northeast. We fly recons over Palomar weekly and the severe mortality is on everyone’s mind at Gillespie. This looming disaster immediately prioritized the water drops from C303: KEEP THE FIRE OFF OF PALOMAR MTN. I asked for the first drop to be across the head as we had little wind effect on the fire and the copter could make that drop without flying through the smoke. The fire was small enough and the refill point so close that an accurate drop across the head would work in this case. The first drop was from the left shoulder and downslope across the head. Drop #2 extended that drop across to the right shoulder. I then directed 303 to concentrate the rest of the drops on the left flank to keep it from continuing upslope. The first 20 feet from the heel was vertical and any attempt to start hoselays from the bottom was hazardous and would have destroyed the origin for an investigation. Two hoselays were put in from the top, anchoring into the water drops and continuing down each of the flanks. The water point for the copter was very close and the turn around time was 2-3 minutes. C303 framed the fire with water drops and the hoselays secured the lines.
   
5. C303 made 6 to 8 total drops before needing to consider refueling. Remember, we had previously been on a training assignment for the Sheriff pilot and we had already burned 1.5 hours of fuel prior to the fire. As you know, Gillespie is staffed this winter to assist in the Sheriff Fire Pilot training. While we have a fuel tender loaned to us from Bieber Helitack Base, we do not have the staffing to deploy the fuel tender for an immediate response. Had this fire lasted longer, that would have been a factor in the copter’s effectiveness. C303 made the decision to fly to Ramona Air Attack Base and refuel with the airport jet fuel vendor. Fortunately, the San Diego City Copter arrived when 303 needed to leave. After air-to-air handoff the City Copter continued the work of extinguishing spot fires.
   
6. Numerous spot fires in the “green.”
   
7. Sheriff Deputy/Fire Pilot Tony Webber did a fantastic job for his first fire. All drops were on target with proper airspeed and altitude. Instructor pilot Cecil Gill never had to intervene in operations at all. These guys are nearing the end of their training and they are ready to drop water on fires. They may not have all of the nuances of firefighting figured out, but they are skilled pilots and have a solid foundation thanks to Cecil. I’ve been impressed with the whole program. Cecil’s efforts and their developing skills will only help CDF in accomplishing its mission.
   
8. This fire was kept small for two reasons:
   
   The presence of the CDF copter that is maintained in a fire-ready status while conducting its training missions. While it is true that we rarely ever attack a fire this soon after its start, today’s action has averted or at minimum delayed a Palomar wildland fire disaster. If there is an arsonist with Palomar in his sights, then a swift, comprehensive and aggressive air attack is critical. Multiple helicopters based at different county locations will assist CDF in accomplishing its mission.
   
   The fire occurred in an area of the unit where its only three staffed (Amador) stations are within a 10-15 minute response time. Elsewhere in the county, the fire would have been more severe.
   
9. Unit recons have revealed many things to us this spring.
   
   • The grass is abundant and tall everywhere. The last few years we needed the wind to get our fires up and running. With the grass, we will have the fine fuel bed to carry the fire up into the mortality stricken areas with or without the winds. Helicopters and helitack crews are highly effective on grass fires.
   • The amount of fuel in the eastern desert areas is sobering and extends as far as we can see, well into Imperial County. Is Imperial County our DPA? If it is, the San Diego County Supervisors have indicated that their aircraft will not venture far from the county boundaries for firefighting; state ships with helitack crews would meet this need.
   • Our truck trails and other roads we’ve used to access fires are in terrible disrepair due to this year’s record rains. We will have a tough time getting ground resources to the fire’s edge in many instances if fire burns those areas. Helicopters with helitack crews would lessen this impact. Putting FF1 helitack crews on the county ships and locating a state funded contract ship with crew again this year would meet the needs of our unit and keep the CDF’s other air resources at their bases where they are needed for their own initial attack areas.
   • Mortality is everywhere, brush, pines, oaks and soon a bumper crop of annual grasses will add to it.
   • Water sources frequent the landscape making helicopters very effective for this fire season.
10. Finally, as you are aware, Cecil Gill plans to have training completed at the end of April. This leaves the unit without a helitack resource for May and June. Chief Chaney will have more details, but the SDSO pilots have indicated that their ships probably won’t be ready until July 1 at the soonest. The grass is turning and I hope we (CDF) don’t roll the dice on whether we can get away with gambling for a mild/late season start and withdraw a state copter presence and delay station staffing.

I ordered line gear from True North because their stuff comes in standard or SMALL sizes
and I got it today and it actually fits!! I couldn't believe it! For those of us who are tiny this
is great. Having the narrower harness is so much more comfortable . . .

Pocket FF

Fire Danger Map
Fire Potential Map
Drought Monitor Map

National Wildland Fire Outlook (pdf file)

Large Incidents April 8, 2005

Current stories:

Wildfire hits close to Ehrenberg Arizona

Wet winter eases fire season fears in Lake Tahoe Basin CA;
North of Tahoe and into the Pacific Northwest is a different story.

Wildfire outlook grim for northern Rockies

A dry winter has increased the possibility of large and widespread wildfires in northern Wyoming, the Black Hills and most of Montana.

Forest Service tightens budget, delays hiring in Montana

On the Bitterroot National Forest, jobs aren't being filled immediately when people leave or retire, said Dixie Dies, public affairs officer for the Bitterroot National Forest. For instance, Curt McChesney retired as Fire Management Officer for the West Fork Ranger District in January. His spot hasn't been filled, Dies said. Had McChesney retired a few years ago, the Forest Service would likely have hired someone to replace him right away, she said. "Right now, what we're doing when that happens is we're taking a much harder look before those positions are advertised," Dies said. Forest officials still don't know what it will do with McChesney's position, she said.

Windy cold front worries fire meteorologist in Montana

And elsewhere across the nation:

High Forest Fire Threat in Pennsylvania
Spring wildfire season is here in central and southern Michigan
Fires scorch 200 acres in Wisconsin
Forest Service: Spring burning begins this week in New Hampshire
300 firefighters battle Sussex Delaware blaze

R3 Joe

Competent, I think. . .

Maybe Nuttall is off limits until OIG investigates.

Should we be calling our congress people on this? They started this mess.

NG

If OIG and DOJ are witch hunting, how far back can they go? I was involved in an incident that was not my fault and I did not have insurance. No one did. Lots of firefighters in R3 still don't have it. No one is advising them in a convincing way to get it. There's intranet mail coming around but who reads all that...

I was not found to be at fault by the agency investigation. But the FS did not find thirtymile fire managers to be at fault either. What might those thirtymile firefighters have said in AAR that now makes them possible criminals? I heard the Chief even made the investigators change the wording on the thirtymile report. Do the OIG legal hacks get the pre-change or the post-change thirtymile report? Will the Chief be investigated? This whole thing is completely wacked.

Does the agency now abandon fire managers every time an DOJ or civil suit is brought? New SOP? It's clear the agency is run by non-fire morons.

If OIG and DOJ have instructions from Congress to go back and open up old cases again I am sure I'll have to pay out the ear to some lawyer just so my family and I can sleep at night. Is that fair? I am getting so I hate lawyers and congress and the stupid bureaucracy where the rules change every day on somebodys ill-conceived whim. It almost makes me believe in conspiracy theory. How many lawyers are there in Congress who are making laws supporting this kind of legal system? When you have a hammer all you see is nails? When lawyers/congress see tragedy fire deaths all they see are court cases? When a middle aged lawyer gets hit by the fire bug and wants that firefighting adrenalin the only way he can getin on the exciting scene is by making a legal case?

What about retiring? Do I not retire now? Do I cover my ass by sticking with the agency until the bitter end so I might have legal coverage? Will that cover my ass? Are there any considerations for staying with the agency that I am not considering? Maybe I'm stupid to think the agency would support me, after all where's the evidence for any support or rationality lately? The agencies aren't supporting any employees these days as far as I can see. Maybe I should retire and take my chances. Oh yeah, now I need to pay big bucks to hire a lawyer to tell me whether to retire?? If I don't retire I may need to hire a lawyer to tell me if I can burn out here or have crews cut line there?

Ab, sorry for sounding so bitter. It's not firefighters here who need to be taken behind the woodshed. It's the lawyers and congressmen!

Just a R3 Joe who wants to retire soon

(Ab, I really do apologize for the rant. Anonymous incompetent bureaucrats are clueless. It makes me so mad when they dont consider implications. If you dont want to post this its ok by me. Thanks for the website. I read it first every day.)

I understand your frustration of not knowing the new rules and feeling that the legal situation is unfair. I too question how the law resulting from 30mile can legally be applied retroactively. What are the legal implications for fairness if managers are re-investigated on past incidents where they have already gone through what is technically a "consenting" non-criminal investigation process. What are the implications for AAR, our lessons learned environment and firefighter safety? Readers, educate your brothers and sisters on the legal insurance issue. I personally feel that the federal agencies should pay all legal insurance costs and they should do it for all managers below the ICT3 level as well as higher managers. Ab.

California wildfire costs need control, legislative analyst says

JS

It's interesting they look at the cost but not at the savings that having resources available provides. Ab.

Now you're wondering if the wet muddy spot in the meadow might be a better place for the dozer to go into, but you're afraid the dozer might get stuck trying to clear it out some more. Winds are now picking up to around 35+ mph and things are getting bad around you! The brush that is off in the distance is starting to burn and some trees are crowning. Now you're wondering - since you have been sitting there around 15 mins thinking - did I make the right decisions about where to stay? All of a sudden the draw you were instructed to go down blows over and closes in; the wet muddy area you thought might be a better spot burns up with a lot of force! You jump off the dozer and get behind the blade which just happens to be pointed the right way and it blocks you from the flame front. To late to deploy now and you make a dash under the dozer and start putting out the embers flying under it. Getting hard to breath now, air is really hot and you think it is the end.

The fire is roaring all around you as several mins go by. Then out of nowhere it starts to quiet down. The front has gone over you and you're still alive! After you come out, you see the cab of the dozer is OK and you could have stayed inside it. The wet spot is totally burned up and black. That draw is still burning hot and you're alive to fight another fire!

Any one of the decisions you made could have got you killed but for some reason you made the right ones. Yes, you could have done more, but it was not supposed to blow up and those high winds, they weren't there a minute ago.

Just remember it is up to you to do the right thing when the time comes. You will be the one who really answers to a mistake in the end!

Be safe this Fire Season so you can still be around for many more to come in the future!
Region 6

In California Hispanics have to be hired or the overseer for the Hispanic Settlement Agreement can put someone in the Forester's office in jail.

I don't think the best people are being hired. There certainly are people who are being passed over who have lots more experience including some Native Americans and women. Go figure.

The other side is that neither can we freeze (re)hiring even if the Washington Office says we don't have $, because the same Hispanic Settlement overseer will raise holy hell over that too.

Wasted Days and Wasted Nights

Effectively teaching ICS with out putting students to sleep is a challenge. I'll give you what has (occasionally) worked for me.

1. Believe in what you're teaching. ICS works great, I know that the more our agencies (Eastern) get good at it the better we'll manage incidents. I try to make that attitude come out when I teach. Many times the students are only there because the class is required. They can be amazed if they see you actually enjoy this stuff.

2. Use as many personal observations as possible. Tell as many stories as you know. Bring in props. Old IAPs, pictures of incident organizations (facilities, status boards, etc)

3. Use scenarios. They learn more by doing than being lectured. Even a basic class can be split up into teams and solve problems. If the book doesn't have ones that apply or you like write your own.

People learn more when they're having fun. If it fits your teaching style tell jokes and slightly weird stories. Stay on track, but have fun.

I hope this helps,
Bill E.
NJFFS

The Nuttall Fire info on that lessons learned link looks
a little like a CDF Greensheet. Maybe CDF has a good
idea there. Control the information coming out and
manage the public's or OIG'S perception? I am a bit
ashamed of us. Our values for learning are going down
the toilet.

Strider

Jumpin Geo

Hard copies of the report are out there floating around. I don't know why they won't release it. Funny how something like not releasing a report can make the situation look a little like cover-up. Just searched on Nuttall at the Lessons Learned Website where it was supposed to be posted. It's not there... yet. Shades of No More Lessons Learned given the OIG climate? Ab.

Dave T

MM

From what you say, my guess is you're going to need to distill the main points. Maybe frame it in terms of

1. This is a system that can start small and can expand to larger that can get emergency responders on the same page when trying to achieve a goal and minimize loss of life under hazardous circumstances.
   What are a few simple examples they can relate to, where ICS was in place even if they didn't know it?
   What would it have been like without ICS?
   ICS arose out of one of SoCal's really bad interface fire seasons in the '80s.
2. On each incident we have a goal or plan.
   This is how we want it to look when we're done.
   This is the organizational structure we need to accomplish that plan safely.
3. why/who
   [we really need it as a way to get a lot of different organizations speaking the same language and using the same framework to deal with emergencies; including fed, state, city, vollies, SAR, HAZMAT, Homeland Security, etc];
   example of the mess we'd be in without it; base examples on the experience of who you're talking to;
   with structure folks you might point out that if ICS had been used by all and communication units had been available at the time of the Twin Towers, more firefighters might have survived.
4. what
   [structure that simplifies and streamlines the work and also allows Commander's Intent to be implemented: points made by Still Out There as an AD: commanding (Command), thinking (Plans), doing (Operations), supporting (Logistics), and paying for it all (Finance); chart or visual if there's time]
5. where
   [here and/or there... and it's an expandable structure for small incidents getting larger/more complex and multiple incidents being overseen or regulated by a MAC group; span of control is important to achieve the goal safely]
6. when
   [it needs to be called into play - anytime large or small that you need it]

NorCal Tom

I came to the conclusion from this ICS assessment that what they want to see is our ability to speak in front of people and how we verbally communicate information and keep it simple - they don't necessarily want to know how knowledgeable we are on the topic! you could have written the book on ICS and talk about it in a “Fire” language unknown to someone new in the service. This could lead to lost interest and confusion then what you have is a wasted 15 minutes of someone’s life.

Any advice on how I can explain ICS with out confusing people and giving them information that doesn’t just go in one ear and out the other? What do I tell them to keep it interesting so they don’t just nod their head and agree with what I’m saying about ICS! Thanks again guys!

-MM

"ICS applications and users have steadily increased since the system's
original development. In 1980, the ICS that was originally
developed in California under the FIRESCOPE program made the
transition into a national program called the National Interagency
Incident Management System (NIIMS). At that time ICS became the
backbone of a wider-based system for all federal agencies with
wildland fire management responsibilities." <Ab added this quote>

If a person want to see additional documents, dealing with HiRise,
Multi-Casualty, USAR/Swiftwater Sar and etc. stuff, they can go to:

www.firescope.org

Once there, go to Documents/Free Downloads and have a ball.

HIPPY MIKE

We Abs are also enriched by all of you.

Thanks for doing that. I am sure it means a lot to family and friends know
there's love and support from the whole wildland firefighting community.

Mellie

www.katu.com/stories/76399.html wildfire news in oregon

doc brown

About structure protection organization... that is an excellent question my friend.

Its something that we need to address and do a much better job of. Speaking as someone who has led structure protection for Type 1 and 2 teams, IA and extended attack, I can say there are about as many ways to organize it as you can dream up, and no one way has the market cornered.

Embarrassingly, some teams have a tendency to almost ignore structure protection and lean on National Fire Policy as the means to say "were gonna let the locals handle it". This is a mistake, and a throwback of nearly 30 years of cooperative fire protection. In these cases you cant even get the plan to reflect structure protection organization, or you have guys who wear green who aren't comfortable in that environment who instead of engaging just look to a guy dressed in blue and say "you handle it". Not an enlightened way!

Some teams do engage very well and try to do better, integrating the entire fire into one plan and one operation. But there are still organizational shortcomings that need to be addressed nationally. For instance; many teams will organize a "structure branch" to work side by side with perimeter control branches and divisions. This leads to some conflicts but also works well over limited areas. Problem is, when your structure branch is 15 miles long and includes 40,000 homes that gets pretty overextended. At other fires you see where they try to have branches with "structure protection specialists assisting at the branch or Operations Section level, but this isn't too clean either. Some teams try to get a bigger bang from their branches and divisions, expecting them to run both operations over designated terrain well. We need a better fix.

While were at it, we need to recognize the dynamic nature of structure protection. Typically it moves fast, organizing and collapsing structure groups as fast as the threat moves. This is contrary to the practices of traditional wildfire planning and operations management, and for those that haven't done it before its sometimes confusing and frustrating. For my book, we need to reinvent this science, and recognize that structure protection is part of every wildland firefighter's future, from Florida, to Alaska, and Montana to California.

Contract County Guy

Readers, Al Simmons link is on the Classifieds page. He also sponsors news, wallpaper and fire photos pages. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mellie,

I just called back to N.D. and one of the little gals at the office, told me
that some of the firefighters went to all the ATMs in their little town,
until they could get $1000.00 collected to get Mark K's wife enough
money to get her on the plane to St. Paul to the burn center. She said she
had no idea about her motel expenses or a car. She and some other from
their community are going over tomorrow to see what she needs. I told her to
call me back and let me know so we could help her. This gal started to cry
and said you don't even know us, where are you guys from? I told her there
were wildland firefighters all over the west just waiting to help them.
Mellie thanks for the contact.
I'll keep you posted.

Vicki

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks Vicki, Burk & Melissa. www.wffoundation.org Ab.

Yeah, Pulaski, we kinda miss that explicit subject line abuse. haw haw Ab.

Look at homeland security www.auxetrain.org/icsmodule1.htm
I-100 is the same training that we do in wildland fire.

Todd

Someone suggested I read Gordon Gram's work.
Has anyone heard him speak?

KL

I think you mean Gordon Graham. Here's one of his articles in pdf format that has some very useful info. Take a look at his 2x2 table of risk by frequency with non-discretionary time.

www.gordongraham.com/pdfs/GREFS_NPCCR.pdf

He spoke 3 or 4 years ago in R5. He is a good speaker. He's natural and funny. I think 6 Minutes for Safety might have been inspired by his work. He suggested that training a little bit all days on narrow topics helps people keep training topics (RPD slides) at the front of their memory. Ab.

Here's a good resource
www.nifc.gov/fireinfo/ics_disc.html

NorCal Tom

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Wilton North Dakota firefighter is listed in critical condition at a burn center in St Paul MN and two other firefighters also suffered related injuries and burns.

FF Mark Keller suffered severe burns Friday when he and two other firefighters were stranded while fighting a large grass fire near Wilton... when the wind suddenly switched direction and their truck stalled. Wilton Fire Chief, J-D YoungBird says the firefighters became engulfed in flames, but those who weren't injured managed to get the others out. Sheriff Steve Berg says he talked to Keller last night. He was coherent but had severe burns. It is reported that Keller has second and third degree burns, covering his face, hands and chest. Keller is also a Burleigh County deputy sheriff.

FF Geremy Olson suffered burns and a broken leg and FF James Meyers suffered burns to his face. The severity of their injuries is not yet known. YoungBird says he spoke with Olson and Myers Sunday morning and they are in good spirits.

Take care and be careful,
BillyG

Our thoughts and prayers for the firefighters and their families.
Grass fire north of Bismark ND injures 3 firefighters
Fight continues for injured firefighters
Ab.

It's excellent training and a prerequisite for all supervisory quals/classes. We had everyone in the training from groundpounders, to a dozer operator moving into dozer supervision, to team finance supervisory people. (I hope I got those details right. If not, please correct me.) Everyone was encouraged to and did participate. Good personal examples and movie clips to illustrate points. Good small group exercises. Our instructors are top notch. The depth and breadth of our instructors' knowledge, given their youth, was rather remarkable. In the field exercise portion, I don't think I'm giving away anything when I say that everyone had a turn at being the leader. There's nothing to internalize leadership classroom learning like actually participating in exercises in which you brief your "team" with Commander's Intent as the goal, communicate on safety, acknowledge communications, ask and answer questions if necessary, and practice After Action Review (debriefing) according to the IRPG (Incident Response Pocket Guide) to see if you accomplished your goal.

Some personal on-the-ground "slides" that were demonstrated through the exercises:

• There's a standard of performance expected of wildland firefighters. Some standards are specific to task, like how to start a chainsaw safely. Some are more universal: safety standards, for example, use of PPE regardless of task. Training and practice are critical to all standards of performance. In addition, crew training to SOGs (Standard Operating Guidelines) can help firefighters internalize responses to specific pre-identified dangerous situations.
• Leadership without practice, in the beginning, was not a comfortable role (for me anyway). Even with practice, it may not be a comfortable role. Having one or more leadership role models helps. In this training, I learned a lot from my peers and the course leaders.
• Directing, delegating and participating are all strategies in your leadership toolbox. (Disappearing and observing may be another strategy, especially if you're supervising a convict crew that may act differently when you're absent.)
• Power comes in many forms and some forms are more important than others when bad stuff or too much stuff happens. Knowledge/expertise power comes first. (I had less of this.) Respect power comes second.
• The person who truly takes on the leadership role dons the mantle of leadership. He or she feels or appears different to the follower. As perspective new leaders "get it", their body language and delivery style demonstrate it. (Thanks for the opportunity to watch that first hand.)
• What the leader said and what they think they said can differ. The IRPG Briefing Checklist on the inner back cover helps prompt even experienced brief-ers to say everything necessary in a brief time.
• What is said by the leader and what is heard and remembered by the follower can differ, follower by follower and situation by situation.
• Repeating briefing instructions back helps the follower doing the speaking remember better, but may not help the other followers remember. (We did this to see if it improved retention.)
• Clearly imparting Commander's Intent (the purpose of the exercise: that is, what it will look like when you're done) has phenomenal power in making it so, regardless of tactics used to get there.
• In complex unfolding incidents, tactics must change to meet unexpected change. Those on the ground know best how to make the best choices to accomplish Commanders Intent given a rapidly evolving and complex situation.
• Time marches on, sometimes before you're done!
• As a "team" becomes more cohesive, it is easier for the team to fulfill Leader's Intent: strengths, weaknesses, ego, communication styles, safe communication environment, trust... understanding develops - even in a day - and friction is reduced allowing for smoother and faster performance.
• Inability or blocks (for whatever reason) to imparting Commanders Intent - a vision of what it will look like when you're done - makes achieving any task much more difficult, if not impossible.
• AAR (debriefing) is critical to the learning process and to optimizing future safety.

Some personal best memories of firefighters in this training:

• The caution from the "kid" leader on the steep downhill to not slip on the banana slug (which he had done on his mountain bike once), that if I did, I could grab his arm, ...and the fact that he dubbed me "Mel" in a tone that indicated I was just one of the guys.
• The rain running off my nose as the <virtual> spot fire is coming over the hill.
• Not dropping John's head in that pile of dog sh*t as we "lowered" him to the ground.
• Atilla must have been a wildland firefighter.
• How good that cold bottle of water tasted in the rain following the steep uphill and passed out by the "big guy" who thoughtfully hauled enough waters for the whole team.
• The simple appreciation and insight of the "small wiry guy" who ended both his leadership tasks with "First thing, good job, we got that done" even before we looked at what we could do better next time... and who, on the hike out, articulately summed up the special unique strength of each team member.
• The absolutely impeccable leadership / humanity / professionalism demonstrated by the young leaders, hotshots and engine captain of both genders teaching the class. Guys and gal, you do your respective crews proud, although I'm sure you don't want that kind of "spotlight" shined on you, you'd say you're just doing your job. "Character"... you guys and gal are the real deal.
• The total booming body laugh I experienced when I was told by the hotshot instructor briefing me as I was acting leader that "I had to stop the grunting, that no grunting was allowed on the next section" (and I'm proud to say he was not joking and I shouldn't have been grunting given the task at hand, although I don't remember grunting! <wide eyes> <I'm innocent look>).
  
  While on the topic of hotshots, I need to say I gained new insight and, if possible, additional respect for the new generation of professional hotshot firefighters who are upcoming leaders and natural educators. I have had a variety of excellent hotshot "slides" in my head. Most of the R5 BoD members and many if not all of the ICs are former shots, I have worked with hotshot supts on various humanitarian behind-the-scenes projects - in several instances, they've supported me, in several I've supported them. I've also I lurked on the fringe of the R5 hotshot leaders group as they discussed and worked on choosing the Leadership Values (Integrity, Respect, Duty) at their meeting in 2002 (I think it was) and in more recent years as they've shared Lessons Learned. So now I have more slides of hotshots, the Educators. You hotshots have probably been doing that for years, but this is my first experience as student of a hotshot leader in a structured course.

I can't think of when I've had as much fun or felt so positive about the next generation coming up in our wildland fire agencies.
For those wanting to learn or read more on leadership, go to www.fireleadership.gov/values_principles.html.

Thanks,

Mellie

PS. I think I need to sit in on the R-5 Engine Captains' Workshop next February or March. <hint> <hint>

Rod

Tools go cutting to scraping: chain saw, brush hook, Pulaski, McLeod, shovel
picture: handtools (no chainsaw or brush hook)

Are they going any further back to any other fatality fires? If so, when does
this become a witch hunting?

KCW

Hello Student of Leadership!

Let me first say that your (rebuttle?), can I call it that?, was obviously a emotional one. Looks like I struck a few nerves with you and quite possibly a few more folks. Unless you are one of the folks I was describing when I was talking about not having morals and integrity, you aren't apart of Joe and myself's conversation. Yes the 50% number wasn't correct, I apologize. You ask me what hard decisions do I make? How will I pay for my son's college, what size endotracheal tube to insert on a CPR patient I had two days ago, how do I tell someone their son is gone? I sound sour, you sound brainwashed. Not to mention you completely missed the "Johnson" issue or the poop where ya sleep comment. The next time you want to eavesdrop on a conversation, hit the print icon, READ the post and then decide on making a personal attacks or judgments. My observations were objective, yours were pointed at me. So, here is another little saying, ready? If you eat manure long enough it will start to taste good. I know you will get this one, if not write back and i'll help ya out......

Signed,
Hate the game, not the Player

Sorry about allowing Student of Leadership's pointed responses. I lost SA. It was Sunday and I was not "heads up". Hmmmm, reading back over posts, it looks like we get both the negative and the positive viewpoints. Ab.

How does one contact any of those officials? It's not so easy for good people on the ground to do it without loosing their jobs. Could someone submit a safecom anonymously? Is there any other "heads up" anonymous route?

How does a federal agency (not the FS) find someone to do a FMO job if there is no one who wants it? (I hope this is not indicative of might happen somewhat routinely in all fire agencies in the not-so-distant-future.) Is it right for the agency to simply appoint someone with no fire qualifications who gives himself airs and authority with implied experience that he does not have? If there are deaths, will the agency get fined more than a slap on the wrist? Will the highest management heads roll? Whatever the case, why must our guys die first for those in charge of putting this guy in place to see the danger this move poses??? I know this happened a lot in the past, and in areas other than CA and that current quals that snap into place in 2006 should stop this, but what about now???

I promised to keep the details between my friend, myself and the wall, but there should be a route to deal with such a situation.

Lobotomy, sorry for bringing it here, but if not here, then where?

Mellie
(I hope I have betrayed no confidences...)

Thanks for the story. Those who have great mentors have a real advantage. Ab.

Toe.
P.S. Call Web.

However, if I'm reading things right regarding the last few posts on the current thread, there seems to be an underlying question of whether one person is stirring the pot (MOC under different monikers?) possibly working up to defamation of someone specific? Like they have a real Johnson on and are out to get someone? (psst, Ab, I'll take "Monikers for 200". Is Johnson related to that Bigstick guy who comes into chat who sometimes boots the pottymouths?)

Alternative explanation for those jumping on the bad leader bandwagon: I could also see it that once bad leader behaviors are named, we can each imagine a "bad leader". Bad leaders - or those in leadership positions who are not real leaders - are salient slides in our Recognition Primed Decision Making slidetrays that carry a strong emotional charge. --> They raise the hair on the back of your neck! It's an example of Brain behavior related to survival in a high risk environment... You don't trust the untrustworthy; your life depends on that judgment. Even if your rational brain doesn't know it, your emotional brain certainly does.

Anyway, one of the few disadvantages of using monikers on theysaid is that we don't know who is saying what here, with what knowledge base and with what intent.

One other comment... Can you imagine that the original bad FMO (in this case, dangerous person in a leadership position) referred to in the original post would recognize himself? To borrow something from what a friend said, my guess is that if he reads here, he's also madder than hell there's somebody like that in authority!

Mellie

Mellie, clarification on where posters are coming from is part of the dialog process here. I think it's fair to say that as far as Ab can tell, these posters are all different people. (Don't know if they have the same FMO in mind, though.)

• Treat others as you wish to be treated

  I say: Most folks don't like to be called idiot, don't talk about showing their
  "Johnsons" and don't want to have their co-workers want to have them put on trial.
  Emotional intelligence and professionalism are the hallmarks of a true leader.

• Make hard decisions, make the right ones

  I say: Which hard decisions have you made today?

• DO NOT poop where you sleep

  I say: You pooped here.

• Reward the troops when they do good, counsel them when they do bad, build
  a strong team

  I say: Are you trying to build a strong team? or are your comments aimed at
  undermining the strong professional team most of us reading here are already
  working hard to create?

• It takes one sour apple to ruin a pie

  I say: You seem sour.

• There isn't a "I" in the word TEAM.

  I say: You seem to have an "I " complex; the "I" person is an integral part of
  the TEAM.. A great team cannot exist without INDIVIDUAL TALENTS
  cohesively employed. I can't say that you inspire cohesion. The team is way
  more than its parts, but it is composed of its individual parts.

• Suck-ups don't belong in the fire service, they should be doing community
  service.

  I say: See commandment #1.

• The best leaders lead from the front and not the back.

  I say: The best leaders solve the cultural problems and inspire others to win the
  individual battles. They lead by example, they direct, delegate, participate,
  they entice with their words and may give away their power to enhance the
  team's power.

• Don't ask your people to do a job that you yourself aren't comfortable
  doing yourself.

  I say: Don't ask the readers of theysaid to solve your individual personal
  problems if you are unwilling to do the job yourself.

• Finally, if I were to be on T.V. everyday, every minute, every second,
  would I like what I see?

  I say: If you were on TV, every minute and second, if you are a true leader,
  you would not like everything that you see. You would see that you have
  weaknesses just like every human being. You would be trying to understand what
  they are, you would work with and around them. Leaders never arrive but they
  always "show up".

  True leaders are always "students of leadership" and "students of themselves".
  The object is not doing only what will let you like what you see or what lets you be
  comfortable with who you are, but risking to grow bigger knowing you can
  look honestly and learn from whatever comes out of that, which you might or might
  not like. Each and every leader has weaknesses. In this particular case, one of them
  is preaching to the choir in a demeaning way. No leader or aspiring leader likes
  personal attacks, or attacks against other leaders. Leaders want facts.... just
  the facts.

Keep it Safe (thanks Abs for the site)
Student of Leadership

Clear to me. Ab.

Your avenues for remediation are: 1) Misconduct Complaint through Agency channels and protocols, 2) Agency OIG Complaint, 3) Office of Special Counsel Complaint, or 4) Merit Systems Protection Board Complaint. MOC4546, OPM does not have anything to do with the complaint process... why would you be so concerned in contacting them?

Ab.

Take Care,
Bill Edwards

I am opening a business and am looking for an Army truck , 6x6. I have been looking on the internet, but so far, there are only army trucks sold in the States. Where can I find an army truck near Vancouver, British Columbia?

JS

We understand there have been problems registering for the Hot List Forum. We think we've fixed it. If you register and don't receive a reply in a short amount of time, you can email a request/message to
wildland @ wildlandfire2.com for a manual reply.

There has been recent activity on the Hot List, things are heating up. To get to the HotList Forum and to access the WildWeb, click on the News header button.

Ab.

There are two sides of the fence in the fire shelter world, the small but growing number of us that have survived entrapment by deploying, and the rest of us. We've made quantum leaps in our shelter training (remember practicing once a year, on a cool day, on a green lawn?) but as a supervisor, I can't promise I'll lead well if the unthinkable happens. It's easy (and probably naive) for me to say my first time (actually) in a shelter will be my last day as a firefighter, Never been there, done that. My perspective is from only one side of the fence. Is it possible to simulate leadership breakdown, panic, chaos or injury? Do we make it clear that the fire shelter is designed to protect the airway, not necessarily the hide? I agree with D. Mangan, practice and visualization is critical training, but in the real world nature of fireline disasters, I wonder if we shouldn't train for Disorganized Deployment:

* Render a practice shelter unusable. re-fold it so it looks like all the other practice shelters and train with it. Does the trainee do everything they can to make it work (survive) or give up?
* As a supervisor, simulate poor, nonexistent, or fractured leadership. will your crew follow you into the grave, or follow their survival training?
* Visualize loss of situational awareness, embarrassment of being trapped, going through a big investigation, survivor guilt and "shelter stigma" for the rest of your career/life. (Only guessing about this, and please no offense to deployment survivors out there. I aspire to your collective courage.)

So what about (Deep Survival author) Laurence Gonzales' observation that "efforts to make ... systems safer, especially by technological means, made the systems more complex and therefore more prone to accidents" Anyone else see themselves in that line?

FS Capt

Whether it's

• The unethical supt. screwing around on
  their partner (I won't say wife / husband/ whatever
  cause there's a few women in this group).
• The Capt. who's favorite P.O.S. flunky gets the choice
  assignments without experience to back it up...then
  moves up and burns over their crew.
• The FMO drinking and driving in a Govt. rig.
• The Regional FMO who pulls a crew off an active fire.

We've written the same book several times, only to
rewrite it under a different name, with similar
characters, same plot line. The hand slap at best,
then onto the FUMU program (you've just won the p.o.s
lottery, here's your promotion).

What's the story here, Leadership and Integrity are
not KSAs for most jobs. Where the shovel hits the
dirt seldom matters in the political reality that
ensues after the appropriate appendage has been
satisfied. We are not judged by our peers when chosen
for the next position, but selected by those who think
they can work with us (do they play well with others,
god/ess I hate that one). A leader makes the hard
decision, not the knee pad one. The leader I want to
work for has a his/her story of doing the right thing,
over the future position momentum thing. I get to
sleep well at night knowing I make the best decision I
can with input from my team.

Someone was sold magic beans in the form of your
golden boy (maybe, or maybe they once had potential,
now rancid by power and self servicing whatever). No
parent wants their child to grow up to be Ted Bundy.
No FMO wants to hire a P.O.S.. The true sign of great
leadership is the willpower to cull the herd, to deal
with the hard problem in an effective manner, to
retain the best and brightest (no 15 watters, please).
To catch and release...

And to lead by example, period.

And sometimes bad operators just don't make it home
(another escaped burn, another HR complaint, "Bob has
a history of bad decisions at the wrong time" region /
state/ powers that be/ have to look at these).

Unfortunately the take away from your situation will
end up as a civil case, with your epitaph being "sue
the bastards".

If the dude is holding information that is potentially
incriminating, go to the special agent/ head cop/ LE
types for your agency. They have to investigate. IF
they've lied on their quals, fabricated experience,
inflated their ego, then they may go down in flames of
their own making.

If the dude is a valid watchout, post it, give us
outside your scope of influence a fighting chance to
not be a part of his demise. Live inside firechat,
spread the word. Just don't slander anyone, talk in
the truth as you see it.

And a final hard, not easy to ask question. Have you
looked at getting out? This is a bad relationship,
someone may eventually die (let's talk a little
relationship counseling here, just like an abused
partner...).

I've got your 6.

Biker Joe,
True believer

I've sometimes seen a disconnect between local emergency operations and information flowing from an incident. Training should probably include how to get and understand items like the Incident Action Plan and Incident Summaries (209s). It should also include using the intelligence data readily available on the internet (for Oregon www.or.blm.gov/nwcc/). Since you are in the west, I'm assuming you've already considered important preplanning concerns such as how to interact with the local state and federal agencies over radio frequencies.. This lack of communications planning was a real problem during the evacuations for the big Florida fires in 1998.

Still Out There as an AD

I took my S-130/190 from Dave, and have since worked with him on several occasions here in AZ and out of state. He is a very professional structural/wildland FF and paramedic. He works with a very respected southern Arizona Fire Dept. I have heard his story first hand about the Dude fire, not to mention watching the fire shelter video over and over when I teach my own S-130/190 classes. He has the burns, the emotional scars, and now has the eager intent to pass along his experience. He took his situation, along with getting something positive out of the burn deaths, to teach new and experienced FFs, to improve our knowledge, and try to prevent those of us on the line from going through what he went through. Dave is a great individual, I respect him alot, and always look forward to seeing him on the same piece of line.

AZfirefighter

Thanks
tom

my name is doc brown I am in central Oregon and would be glad to
offer any assistance to you I am a lead nwsa as well as nfpa instructor
drop me a e-mail

hotshotboss @ hotmail.com

You can disagree. The person writing in (Looking) carefully and responsibly included no names and asked a question that's been asked before. Ab did not even have to request any change in his/her post. It's human nature to want to make sense of what happened when people get burned over or die. I don't see anything about blaming anyone for any actions in a horrific situation. (Have you read Deep Survival?) Beyond that, I see no wrongdoing in the crew's or individual's behaviors. So in answer to the question, just state out the truth. It's there in the records what happened so long ago -- to the best of investigators' ability to determine. There's an excellent Staff Ride to share lessons learned.

I think this was simply a case of clarifying misperceptions, to the degree they exist, so we can get to the important stuff of fighting fire safely. What I object to is mixing the questioner up with the question or the messenger up with the message. That simply starts a flaming war in which people take sides and nothing is clarified. My opinion. Ab.

GGFire no harm is meant here. The unclarity about what happened has been floating around for quite some time, hence the investigation, which some did not know about. I think Dick's and Old Sawyer's replies were good, clear explanations that helps lay it to rest. I'm glad to hear you're not planning a sarcastic and flaming response. In my opinion, the topic does not warrant that. Peace out. Ab.

Eleven Perryville Crewmembers including Corrections Officer Bachman and Crew Rep Dave LaTour were cut off when fire crossed the road they were running down. Fire spread was 18 plus miles per hour from a downburst. All day long before the downburst fire behavior was moderate with little spread in their direction as they were on the flank, nearly the heel, and the slope and winds were favorable all day. One deployed there and survived with minor injuries. Ten ran back up but were cut off. They all deployed. There was some physical and circumstantial evidence that Bachman and perhaps others were hit with hot gasses while upright before they were able to fully deploy, but there was subsequent testimony from the survivors that all ten at that site were seen fully deployed before the first flame front hit. There was testimony that several of them, including Jeff Hatch who walked out and was rescued by Paul Gleason, J.P. Mattingly and Paul Linse, left their shelters during thermal hazards, killing some of them. The photographs on site of the deceased showed deployed, damaged shelters. The survivors' testimony about their shelter experience is genuine. LaTour subsequently participated in the Dude Fire Staff Ride and recounted what occurred there.

Old Sawyer

I hope to get new photos up on the weekend. Thanks for your patience. If any of you have any really great fire photos, please send them in. Original Ab is already keeping photos in mind for next year's calendar.

Ab.

Thanks Chandler. I also had to go back and read Ab Speaks. Heh, good idea, Original. Yep, we Abs think this community is just the cat's me'ow for information, entertainment and breaking news. We don't plan on going anywhere. Lurk on. Post on! Thanks, Community. We also keep learning and adjusting. Ab.

thanks.
frfd

The Fire Truck in the photo you have looks similar to one produced by Colorado State Forestry. You may try contacting Greg Sundstrom at 970-491-8435 and see if he has any information that may help.Good luck.

Pyroman

Attached is an image of a 2.5 or 5 ton U.S. Army truck, converted into a fire truck by a volunteer brigade. I found the image on the internet, but can't remember where. I would like to know which brigade and any contact details available as the tank design is most fascinating.

I am a member of the Country Fire Authority in Victoria Australia, and we use 'box' tanks - essentially square. The tank in the image looks like it would lower the centre of gravity, making the vehicle more stable over rough terrain.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Alan Erskine
Alanerskine1 @ bigpond.com

Lori, we mourn with you for the loss of our good men. Our best to you and your family. Ab.

Doctrinal change is coming. There's going to be a Pulaski Conference in early June. The best and brightest are being tapped to participate. Ab.

haw, haw. Ab.

I found the link in the 1999 archives and used the way back machine to pull it out: 10 & 18 In Spanish Ab.

Thanks,
Rod Benson
Helena High School

www.nifc.gov/wfstar/hottopics/situational_awareness.htm

jrb

Cowboy also sent in this link. Thanks to all. Ab.

Beth

Amazon orders come pretty fast. NOVA Fire Wars Ab.

Thanks for the info. I couldn't find that written anywhere.

No Name

www.fs.fed.us/eacc/library/docs/2005%20AD%20Pay%20Plan.doc

Hickman

No Name

I am developing a device that will allow a person to operate any 12 volt device with a "car" type power plug form a King Radio battery clamshell. I believe it's almost done, but I need it tested in the field. Since I am now in a wheelchair and thus have a bit of difficulty getting to the fire-line, I need 20 volunteers who are willing to test this device.

The 2 requirements for testers are: Have access to a King radio clamshell and have a need to charge your cell phone battery (or use almost any other 12 volt device) while spiked out or away from a vehicle / fire camp for an extended period of time.

For more information or to request a demo please go to: http://crew13.com/adapter.htm

KRS Evans

Bad Wildfire Season Feared in West

Air Tankers under contract: ready for fire season

San Bernardino National Forest Rains douse fire program

Thailand - Drought - cloud seeding meets success: Rain brings respite from forest fires

Canada - Ministry gears up for 2005 forest fire season - Northwest Fire Management Centre

haw haw. Ab.

stumpshot

sting

Bill from NJFFS-

CDF used to print these. You might check with a local unit’s warehouse and see if they still have some in stock. Call 411 for the unit numbers under California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection. Tell them you are another agency looking for them for official use only. Good Luck and I bet you’ll find them in CDF someplace.

Headquarters are in the following locations and start with the units in the north (Bold). They got rid of the lookouts last.
North
Fortuna
Willits
Santa Rosa
St Helena
Felton
Morgan Hill
Yreka
Redding
Susanville
Red Bluff
Oroville
Auburn
Camino
San Andreas
South
Mariposa
Sanger
Visalia
Monterey
San Bernardino
Riverside
San Diego
San Luis Obispo

“Another CDF BC”

Still AD –

Hard to tell, but it looks to me like the “milling” in the center is the result of in-drafts at the base between the two major columns. The striations at altitude have me stumped. I have never seen anything like them! It is clear to me that any wind at that level has been overpowered by the plumes. You would expect the majority of the movement w/in the plume(s) to be vertical, and not laterally, at least not that much!

StumpShot

thanks
NCBRUSH6

I was disappointed to hear the remark "structures are just another fuel type" and the other remarks indicating that structures in the wildland are such an irritant.

I see people on this board who are struggling to achieve recognition as an all risk fire department. They are asking for the job benefits commensurate with that task.

When houses burn, the citizens don't care what color the engine is, whether its FS Green, BLM Yellow, NPS White or CDF Red. They only see the big letters that say FIRE.

If you want to be treated as a full time fireman, act and think accordingly. Otherwise, you will continue to be treated and paid as a seasonal forest worker.

viejo

Ruffian is a good company they can make anything.
They used to be on the classifieds, but I don't see them.
ww.ruffianspecialties.com

Todd

Sunil Ramalingam

Hope you'll still keep writing in here!

Mellie

Beth

This is a joke, just a joke and not to be considered a poke at anyone or any fire department or fire fighting organization. That disclaimer, disclaimed, here is the joke (it can be adapted to rib any group of fire fighting people you want).

It seems there was a large warehouse (or anything else that burns) and the fire department gets there and is not making any headway. The owner comes up and explains to the I.C. (fire chief, burn boss) that there are valuable documents (secret documents, scientific data, baby bunnies, etc.) in the building and they need to be saved. Try as they might the firefighters can not make any head way on the fire and more alarms are called in. As new units arrive the same explanation is given to each new engine (crew, etc) and as a bonus a reward is offered, $10,000 cash to save the valuables. Well none of the new engine crews can do any better than the original engine on scene. Mutual aid is called in and more fire companies arrive and the same reward is offered to save the structure (scene) about this time the reward gets doubled.

At about the same time the (insert the name a fire department or fire fighting organization here) comes flying down the hill, siren waling and air horn blowing, every light is flashing on the oldest, most beat up fire engine in the county and there are eight or nine old out of shape good old boy firemen in tattered, dirty, worn out bunker gear/ turn-outs/ (insert whatever is the correct P.P.E. for the story) are hanging on for dear life, some even riding tail board! They go flashing by all the engines, water tenders, and what ever else is on scene, with what everyone thinks is a stern look of determination. They crash right into the structure (scene) that is on fire and go to work fighting the fire like they are trying to extinguish the flames of hell and damnation. Lo and behold they do the impossible, what six or seven engines and 30 firefighters and overhead couldn't accomplish in and hour in a half these guys did in just a few minutes. The owner of the facility goes up the old Fire Chief and shakes his hand and tells him how wonderful he and his men were, and that due to the heroism of his men his company will still be in business and that he will add another $5,000 to the reward making it $25,000. Well of course the media is there and covering the whole thing. This cute little reporter catches the Chief's eye and asks for and interview, and of course the Chief grants one. The reporter compliments the brave and heroic work of the old, wise, and battle hardened veterans of the small fire department and finally asks the question what will your department do will the reward money. The Fire Chief responds "well the first thing is were gonna fix the dang brakes on that there old fire engine, we were all scared to death we were gonna die."

Most of you have heard this in some form if you have been in the fire service any length of time, but you have to admit it is a classic.

Retired L.A.V.E.

Retired LAVE, good one. This joke came in from Pathfinder (one of the original theysaiders) about 2 weeks ago. Because he did name specific groups, (old, Norwegian, vollie, Minnesota) etc, I did not put it on theysaid but put it right on the Jokes page. Thanks for providing a pc version. I know I've heard more firefighter jokes over the years, just can't remember them... Ab.