"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
April, 2005
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4/30 LOINA,

You may be surprised to see that the wildland firefighters actually addressed the lack of all options being laid upon the table. The NIMO study should have been thrown back by peer review but wasn't due to the groupthink mentality that was happening.

5. Subject: Update on the NWCG-sponsored NIMO Report (Agenda Item 7).

Discussion: The members were concerned that the NIMO Report was not looking at all options. The draft reports circulated to date have focused on conducting business through various sizes of national incident management organizations. When chartered, NWCG envisioned that the whole range of options for providing incident management services from the current militia approach along with combinations of a NIMO and militia or NIMO alone would be considered. The members want the entire range of options to be evaluated and requested that Jim Stires contact the NIMO Report group and arrange a conference call to discuss the status.

Since the NWCG Meeting, the NIMO Report group (aka NIMO MOT) contacted Jim Stires and requested modification of the report charter to include full agency participation so that the current situation could be evaluated. This is in line with the members desires as expressed at the 88th meeting so will be agreed to. The NIMO MOT also requests time at the January, 2004 NWCG meeting to provide members an update on the report. Time will be made on the January agenda for their briefing.

And then the land managers flexed their muscles against the fire managers.......

26. Update on the current status of the National Incident Management Organization (NIMO) process

Success is predicated on planning and implementing an aggressive landscape scale vegetative management program and nine key recommendations:

  1. Improved Capacity and Capability: Change Federal agency policy to require employee support of incident management and develop incident management positive requirements for unit level agency administrators.
  2. Type 3 IMTs: Significantly increase the number of Interagency Type 3 incident management teams.
  3. Training: Streamline the NWCG fire training and qualifications program to reduce redundancy & more effectively focus on the needs of the various positions.
  4. Legal Authorities: Improve and standardize the legal authorities to allow effective implementation of incident management across all levels of government.
  5. NMAC IMT Management: The National MAC becomes responsible for standardization & mobilization of Type 1 and Type 2 incident management teams.
  6. Non-traditional Partnerships: Actively seek partnerships with other federal agencies (i.e. EPA, Coast Guard, FEMA) to improve capacity for the development and utilization of incident management personnel for fire and non-fire incidents.
  7. Improved Hiring Authority: Reduce dependency on retirees and improve the temporary emergency hiring authorities.
  8. Standardized Contracts: Standardize pay rates, contracts, performance standards and common definitions of inherent government functions.
  9. Complex Incident Management: Develop a new model for managing complex incidents that utilizes social values, significant resource values & cost/benefits in the decision making process.

An interagency implementation strategy will be required to address the specific aspects of this recommendation such as: chain of command, pay/grade structure, methods to include state and local government participation, duty stations, and administrative support structure.

Analysis Conclusion
The analysis did not find a silver bullet. None of the alternatives analyzed were affordable based on the current funding levels and structure. None reduce the reliance on the agency “militia” or increase the capacity at the local level to complete natural resource work. None of the alternatives provide a career path for employees interested in working in large incident management.

However, the team determined that hiring and developing a small number of employees with large incident management as their primary responsibility would result in significant benefits if implemented along with the key recommendations presented.

Action: Schedule presentation of final NIMO report for NWCG review and deliberation at the January meeting.

And with a conclusion like that, without field support... or peer review... we are damned once again to repeat unsafe acts.... Especially when we do not consider all views.

Gizmo
4/30 National Fire Service...my two cents...The National Fire Service makes sense to fire people, but land managers (and they are the ones with the POWER in land management agencies) want and need that fire money for everything (including, oh yeah, that primary land management tool, fire). But outhouses get swabbed out with engines, and post holes get dug, and gates get hung, by fire personnel. Since fire engines drive roads, they grade roads with fire money, fire purchased equipment, and fire personnel. And fire equipment is used for non-fire stuff all the time in all agencies.

In the past the USFS had timber money, now they have fire money. When some brave land management agency tells Congress the truth about the uses and abuses of fire money, Congress may change it But the land management agencies will line up 500 people to run a "smoke screen with mirrors" and say no abuses have taken place. Why? They have come to depend on the money, and I really think that they believe in their hearts the money is theirs to use however they want. In some agencies the land manager (Park Superintendent, District Ranger, Refuge Manager, Resource Area/District Manager) can reallocate up to $250,000/year from program to program with no consequences.

And, saddest of all to me, is the fact that there are thousands of fire personnel who LIKE IT THAT WAY. This is because they have "grown up" with the system this way, and believe they are promoting and forwarding the mission of the agency by "adjusting" the use of Congressionally mandated fire funding. The National Park Service uses fuels money to clear around cultural sites that have existed with fire for thousands of years. The NPS wanted to use fire money for cultural surveys for all parks. The Fish and Wildlife Service uses the "hazardous fuels" funds for ecological restoration (and the resulting fuels burn more readily than the previous vegetation). And if the BLM could figure out how to spray creosote bush with fire money, I'm sure they would try (for you guys not familiar with creosote bush, it really does not burn, despite its name). And the USFS depends on a certain number of pay periods for non-fire people per year to be assigned to fire money. FMOs and land managers butt heads until one wins (usually that is THE BOSS).

Ever notice how the head of NIFC (and usually the head fire guys from each agency there) have land management experience? The agencies want it that way. And the one "national fire service" we have in existence (Alaska Fire Service) usually has an individual that was a former agency land manager. And they will all assist in the "smoke screen with mirrors" TO KEEP THE FUNDING FLOWING. Their agencies depend on them to do that.

The NIMO Study?? Read the fine print on the recommendations-----the agencies took the idea of a National Fire Service OFF THE TABLE of possible recommendations. They could not even consider it as an option...This is the same study that recommended IMTs have full-time jobs as Team members, and they could not even recommend a National Fire Service!

LOINA
4/30 Ab, do you know where the TriDat Study is on the internet?

Fred

Check the Firefighter Safety Awareness Study in 3 phases on the Links page under Safety. Ab.
4/30 After many years of being on the fence, I would say that I have finally made up my mind that we need a Federal Wildland Fire Service. The federal land management agencies are headed for a train wreck, one of their own making.

After the South Canyon Fire of 1994, the federal land management agencies commissioned a study with the TriData Corporation to identify aspects of the culture, leadership, human factors, and accountability to improve firefighter safety. This study was known as the Wildland Firefighter Safety Awareness Study but is also known as the “TriData Study”.

When the study was completed, there were 86 goals identified with 227 strategies on how to implement them. While some of the goals and strategies have been implemented, far more sat blocked from implementation due to organizational biases, lack of funding, or lack of commitment from land managers.

In a speech in 2000, former Forest Service Chief Jack Ward Thomas wrote,

“The director of the BLM and I were on the scene at Storm King Mountain the day after 14 firefighters were killed when a seemingly benign fire erupted into a firestorm. As we stood on the slopes of Storm King Mountain, we took the oath that this would not happen again.”

Thomas also wrote in his speech,

“This may be a test, maybe the final test, of whether land management agencies have a future as presently configured. A review of literature will quickly show that there are questions, serious questions, from both ends of the political spectrum concerning the capabilities of the agencies to move boldly beyond deadlock to a means of active management.”

The land management agencies have repeatedly failed the test in their current configuration.

Thomas went on to say,

“It is my biased opinion that it is time to move beyond the concept of a firefighting organization, to a fire management organization. And that is under way. In such an organization, the focus is strictly on fire, whether on suppression or the application of prescribed fire. Personnel must be appropriately trained and retrained in fire behavior, fire ecology, firefighting, prescribed fire, public involvement, public affairs, personnel and resources management, leadership, air operations, etc. For these personnel, fire management would be a full-time job with appropriate career ladders.”

After repeated failures, the agencies have shown that they cannot be responsible for implementing cultural changes for safety. The Forest Service culture, for example, is deeply rooted in the management of the land, not the management of the firefighters and their safety. The agencies have also shown that they are unwilling or unable to implement the goals of the very study that they commissioned to improve safety.

The train is on the downhill leg with no brakes and a sweeping 180 degree turn approaching. The good thing is, the firefighters using situational awareness and recognition primed decisions, got off the train at the last station and insisted on a safe ride!!

Lobotomy
4/30 There are many different ways to fix the problems that are going on in the federal wildland fire arena. We all should take a look at each one before we just hop on the bandwagon.

1. A national federal wildland fire agency (combining the wildland fire duties of the land management agencies), or
2. A national federal fire agency (combining the fire duties of all land management agencies plus DoD, DoT, Veterans Affairs, etc…), or
3. Centralization of fire programs within agencies, or
4. Consolidation of the USDI and Forest Service programs.

In any of the above scenarios, it would be in the best interest of the land management agencies to act fast and fix the problems or they may not like what they see if the congress has to intervene.

Here are some of the problems that I see with the current system:

1. Safety

For proper program oversight and direction, and to keep from getting anymore “Willful – Repeat” violations from OSHA, fire managers should be running the fire program, not land managers. Fire managers know best how to keep folks safe and what policies should be made, done away with, or revised to make the fire community safer. Resistance by land managers and bean counters cannot be tolerated when it comes to safety.

2. Financial Accountability

Congressionally appropriated funds for fire suppression, preparedness, and fuels management are being used to fund other functions and programs within the land management agencies through cost pools and other funding adjustments. Dollars that are meant to fund the fire program are being redirected through a “smoke and mirrors” system that keeps funding from getting down to the field where it was intended to go.

3. Wildland Fire Policy, Procedures, Training, and Experience

The Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Fish and Wildlife Service, National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, and various DoD agencies (Army Corps of Engineers, Army, Marines, and Air Force) all have statutory protection responsibility for federal lands. Each agency also has different policies, procedures, training, and experience standards for wildland fire.

Those are my thoughts.

Rogue Rivers
4/30 Lobotomy and Mellie:

Ok, I'll take the bait.

The number one reason I had to take my firefighter retirement a few years ago (as an FMO and at my earliest eligibility) was the apathy and greed of my agency managers towards firefighter safety and fire funding respectively. Safety is directly related to the highest management's attitude towards it in any discipline. Autocratic diversion of funds that directly relate to employee safety directly reduces by spades the same.

Highest wildland fire managers of my former agency are well aware of these illegal diversions of funds and continue to declare themselves powerless to do anything about it. Bless their hearts for their efforts but damn the agency for not instituting wholesale cultural change.

The only solution to this serious threat to firefighter's lives is a standalone National Fire Service where professional firefighters are autonomously and holistically allowed to execute federal wildland fire policy placing firefighter and public safety as the highest priority. Anything short of that guarantees that nothing will change. The culture of bureaucratic management apathy is dictated to remain the same. Tragedy fires will continue to occur.

I said this about this time last year in this forum and I will say it again:
Firefighters be very careful who you are taking orders from this coming fire season. Orders tend to come down the pike from totally unqualified agency managers who couldn't give a rat's a$$ about your safety, let alone to place it as top priority.

TCS
4/30 Ab and all;

I have been preaching for a National Fire Service for about 20 years. I really don’t think we are any closer now than we were back then.

The problem is that there are too many empires (fiefdoms) in the Federal Wildland Fire program. Every Forest, National Park, BLM Ranger Unit, Wildlife Refuge, Indian Nation, National Scenic Area and Grassland, competes for the small amount of money that Congress shells out for fire protection. The ones with the loudest voice or most political clout get the most money and the rest of the resources get the leftovers.

Ever increasing numbers of mediocre “Type 1” crews are being created out of thin air which has had the effect of watering down the pool of qualified individuals to run existing crews. Crews are assigned to areas where no one wants to live or cannot afford to live on the Govt. wage system (Happy Camp Vs Lake Tahoe). As such, it is hard to recruit leadership for these crews. Look at how many vacancies are out there being advertised over and over again and not getting filled.

Misplaced agency tradition, pride, arrogance along with politically motivated social engineering and hiring practices contribute to the lack vision that leaders display, regarding establishment of a professional wildland firefighting organization.

Too many administrative regulations and even laws are based on knee jerk reactions due to firefighter accidents and fatalities. These regulations and laws do little to increase firefighter or pubic safety, but increase the mistrust and animosity of us, the “regulated”.

Wholesale safety regulation by OSHA (who have admittedly zero wildland fire specialists in their ranks) is another area where our leadership has passed the buck, dropped the ball and basically capitulated any authority and responsibility for safety.

A National Wildland Fire Service run by professional firefighters would, I believe, come to grips with the fact that the fire environment cannot be made 100% safe 100% of the time (something OSHA and the wildland agencies refuse to acknowledge).

This realization would not be a copout but a truthful risk assessment that would allow development of realistic and achievable goals of firefighter and public safety regarding wildland and urban interface fires, not some pie in the sky list of 1000 rules to “keep us safe”.

I guess that is about all I have time to rant about today. Thanks for the opportunity to use my First Amendment Right.

Backburnfs
4/30 Excellent job on the Spanish Ranch Fire Staff Ride!

Olé
4/30 Regarding the Fed Fire Service idea:

I was talking with a military friend the other day. He said it sounded like the firefighting agencies were undergoing the same kind of modernization  process the military had done. It was hard while it was happening, but better (streamlined, efficient, mission/vision driven) in the end. I don't know about that, but there is a lot of redundancy and lost efficiency in having all the land use agencies with their own fire departments, standards, training. Things have gotten so murky. I wouldn't mind merging them all, unless we all had to go under the Dept of Interior or the Dept of Homeland Security. I'd go for a new streamlined organization that has clear mission, vision, doctrine and a fire chief at the head.

Say we did go to a new agency. Anybody got ideas on how we'd accomplish the land use objectives that involve fire - like fuel reduction on forest/park/public lands etc? I guess I'm wondering about national implications beyond the safety, financial, streamlining benefits I can see for fire. Would the FS, BLM, NPS etc then contract for fire related services? Would the new organization and resources be spread out across the US with training centers located in more centralized specific places? I know I'm thinking logistics here, but what about taking an ICS approach and addressing some of the implications of making a change?

I also would like to see where the FS Fire Doctrinal Review stands. I wonder if the FS would consider centralizing fire and its other functions within the organization like a number of people suggested. Is the FS resistance to change so great that we'll eventually have to start over? sooner or later?

NorCal Tom
4/30 Lobotomy

I already see alot of areas doing the inter-agency thing so a full blown fire service to me seems like a good idea. We have to many people outside of fire telling us what to do and frankly alot of them have no clue as to whats going on. Also I like the idea of everybody's wages being the same if you do the same job. I don't understand places like the Deschutes who have there engine captains as GS-6 and everyone around them are sevens or higher. I myself would be in favor of it.

PYG
4/29 a national fire service

I'm thinking it should be seriously considered. We should at least have
an in-depth discussion of the pros and cons.

Mellie

PS Ab please add:
I'll be in Boise for the statue unveiling. Yippee. I'm looking forward to
hanging out with Vicki and Burk again and meeting Foundation people
I've talked with often -- Melissa and now Peggy who I hear has a lot
of initiative. <chuckle> I'm looking forward to meeting Shane's and
Jeff's families too and Debbie Miley from NWSA. Anybody that's
reading who can make it, come up and introduce yourself at the reception.
I hear the smokejumpers and hotshots will be there and some of the
NIFC folks. See ya soon!
4/29 Hey everyone, what what are your thoughts on a national fire service?

Lobotomy
4/29 Does anyone know the vendor/manufacturer for the silver ring adapter
that fits on top of a Bendix-King Radio battery allowing you to plug in
a cigarette lighter plug to power other items? A phone number or
address would be great too.

Thanks
FC180
4/29 Wildland Firefighting Community, here's a repost of the info on the WFF statue unveiling. Many interesting people will be there. Don't miss 'em. Ab.

Here's the info that came several weeks ago from Vicki ~~~~~

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation helps fallen and injured firefighters and their families but, in addition, has as its mission to honor and recognize ALL wildland firefighters. In accord with that mission, everyone is invited to a public recognition of wildland firefighters on Monday, May 2nd at 3:00 pm at the Boise Airport in Boise, Idaho. (Ab note: That's next Monday.)

At this event we'll be unveiling an 8-1/2 foot bronzed statue of a wildland firefighter holding a Pulaski. It is an honor to have Shane Heath and Jeff Allen's brothers unveiling the statue. The former Governor of Idaho and former head of the DOI, Cecil Andrus, will be receiving the statue. A reception will follow upstairs on the 3rd floor in the Boise River Room at the Boise Airport, with an open bar, appetizers, and program.

Readers, this statue is to recognize and honor ALL wildland firefighters and the work you do. It's to honor ALL of you.

This is the first of many statues that will be placed in public places across the US to recognize and affirm the work and service wildland firefighters provide to our country. This inaugural statue is sponsored through the generosity of the National Wildfire Suppression Association. To date, the NWSA has given more than $80,000 to support the Foundation. A big thank you to them for supporting this project.

Wildland Firefighting Community, this is your invitation to attend. We look forward to seeing you on May 2nd.

Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

4/29 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
4/29 Smalltyme,

I have to agree with what FireBill said about the state and fed forces in the NW already working together using closest forces. Here in SE Oregon not only do we have both fed and state response on nearly every fire call regardless of location, but we also have the VFDs responding on every fire call. It's quite common around my small town for the Volunteers to arrive on scene, size up the fire, and get to work up to a half hour before any agency personnel can arrive due to proximity to the fire. This joint response/mutual aid over the past 8 years or so has really improved our initial attack success locally, since the more often we work together as a team side by side, the more everybody is on the same page. It has also helped our volunteer department gain some much needed respect, both with the agencies, and the within the local community. I think automatic response is a great idea, as long as everybody involved is determined to make it work.

John
4/29 states IAing fires

Look at COFMS, Central Oregon Fire Management Service. Works fine there.

Kirk
4/29 Kicks said:

" Talk about a blast from the past with the Clear Creek stuff.
500 brand new pairs of Whites there with Marines in em."

In 2000, I was on the other side of the hill in the Bitteroot with a battalion from the 101st Division. We'd had them outfitted with logger-style boots, but they weren't in Whites - it was some fairly cheap brand of boot. When the assignment was over and the troops were getting back in uniform for the trip home, it was kind of astonishing to see the trash cans in their camp filled to overflowing with the logger boots. I guess some of the guys weren't that happy with those boots.

I took an Army ordnance battalion to a complex in Washington on '01, and they wore their regular-issue boots that time.

Kicks also said: " So that kinda gets me to wondering how many wildland folks we have here that started out with the military fire stint. Any stories?"

Every time I've worked with the military, there were always some people that seemed pretty interested in taking up fighting fire. There was this one time back in '88, I had some military crews on one of my divisions at one of the Yellowstone fires. I forget what unit they were, though I recall they were Army. But the Military Crew Liaisons (MCADs) for some of the crews were CDF guys that worked at CDF Conservation Camps. This one day in particular was a mop up day, and I was hanging out with the CDF guys while their crews were getting after it. One of the enlisted guys was apparently enjoying the work and the assignment, and he kept going on and on to the CDF MCAD for his crew about how as soon as he got out of the army. what he wanted to do, more than anything, was to fight fire.

The enlisted guy was pretty persistent talking about how much he wanted to fight fire, and he also kept saying that when he got out and went to fighting fire, he really, _really_ wanted to work for the CDF guy. Finally, after quietly listening to this for about twenty minutes, the CDF MCAD says to the enlisted guy, "You want to work for me? Tell you what - you get out of the Army, come to California, rob a liquor store, and I'll see what I can do for ya."

Apparently the enlisted guy hadn't figured out that CDF's Conservation Camp crewmembers are provided by the Calif. Department of Corrections.:

www.fire.ca.gov/php/fire_er_consrvncamp.php

I sometimes wonder if the guy ever got his wish.

BLM Bob
4/29 Smalltyme-

I don't see the problem, since many state units and ranger districts up here in the NW already have closest forces agreements and combined dispatch centers. There's always little chaos on IA, regardless of whose protection the fire's on or who's fighting it.

-FireBill
4/29 hi there, this is a very well done site! i worked on the anf for several years (dalton and engines)
and have worked for local govt for a while. just curious to know whats going on with the subject
of "all risk". when i worked there, we had all that equipment and trained and used it all the time.

sorry to hear about don, he was a great guy. worked for him several times.

Ira
4/29 Interesting testimony before the Senate Committee on Energy and Resources:

http://energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=1462

Regards,
Hugh Carson
4/28 NorCal Tom,

Talk about a blast from the past with the Clear Creek stuff. 500 brand new pairs of Whites there with Marines in em. I think we were working up past Cobalt Mine where they had been "practicing" with their pulaskis. They's dropped everything along the side of the road there, looked like a swarm of beavers had come through. We managed to get an impromptu tool sharpening training in with some of them a couple of days later which was pretty cool. Seemed to me that, due to the interest shown, some of them were getting the wildland fire "fever" for after their hitch was up.

So that kinda gets me to wondering how many wildland folks we have here that started out with the military fire stint. Any stories?

As always, Stay safe!
"Kicks"
4/28 States want to IA federal fires.....Is this a good idea or will it just create unorganized free for all????

-smalltyme

"We're going to ask the federal government to allow us to respond immediately, so we do not have issues of jurisdiction," said Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer, who was flanked at a news conference by Washington Gov. Christine Gregoire, Oregon Gov. Ted Kulongoski and Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002255956_wildfires28m.html
4/28 Alyssa

The detectors put in at Deadwood are by a company called Ambient Control
Systems out of El Cajon Ca. I have not seen these particular units but
the ones they showed us worked on detecting the IR signature of fire. They
have a web page if you want to get additional info.

www.ambientalert.com/fa_systems/products.html

BeenThere
4/28 Alyssa;

One website for this device says that it is infrared light oriented, and uses a computer program to differentiate smoke and heat of the fire from other natural sources. If you type in FireAlert-DC in your search bar, you'll get a variety of websites to read through, sometimes with mind-numbingly technical jargon. Sounds like it's effective, though.

Evan
4/27 Just when you thought the Forest Service was getting out of the eyes of Congress.

Forest Service: Better Data and Clear Priorities Are Needed to Address Increasing Reforestation and Timber Stand Improvement Needs GAO-05-586T, April 27, 2005

Abstract www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-586T
Highlights www.gao.gov/highlights/d05586thigh.pdf
Full report www.gao.gov/new.items/d05374.pdf

Wildland Fire Management: Progress and Future Challenges, Protecting Structures, and Improving Communications GAO-05-627T, April 26, 2005

Abstract www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-627T
Highlights www.gao.gov/highlights/d05627thigh.pdf
Full Story www.gao.gov/new.items/d05627t.pdf

Lobotomy
4/27 With Don up in Heaven with his Leadership Skills and Fire Fighting knowledge,
HELL better beware. Don we are better for knowen Ya, God Bless!!

R5 Dirtminer
4/27 Alright. I have had enough!

Before my tirade, I wish to extend my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of Don Studebaker. I never knew him, but by all accounts, he was a man I wished I had. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

They are also with the crew of T-26. And so follows…

Why is it that the powers that be can’t put some time, energy, and $$ into both fixed-wing and rotor-wing aircraft designed for fire work?!

Don’t give me the BS about “It’s too expensive!” or “The responsibility lies with the contractors.”

Tell that to the families and friends of the T-26 crew, tell that to the friends and family of crew T-130, tell that to me and my bros who lost Gordon, and tell that to all of the numerous friends and families of all of the fire aircraft that have crashed with fatal results.

Get out of the past, spend some hard time thinking about what you have done, what you have let happen. It’s on YOUR head. Time to make amends. For all of us – accept responsibility and make the change!

StumpShot
4/27 Ab, thanks for posting the photos of a friend we'll miss.

Here are two photos from the Clear Creek Fire, 2000 for the military
firefighters who help us out. Thanks. (toward bottom: tents & transport)

Ab, I have some more.

NorCal Tom
4/27 Here is a picture of Don on the Stine Fire on the Klamath in 1999, if you
care to share.

Pyrodactyl

Perfect. Here are all the pics together. Don Studebaker. Ab.
4/27 Hey all.
I have not been hitting this site as often as I like because I am mobilized for the Navy and am in training in Arizona. I am really missing fire and it is made worse because the local FS here has been doing some prescribed fire. I see smoke on the mountain and think that I should be up on the line doing something. Just homesick, I guess. Maybe I can hook my crew up with a severity detail down here.

My condolences to the family of Don Studebaker. I did not know the man, but by the feedback on the board, I would have liked to.

To M. Misiak, I had the pleasure of working with the Marine Corp on the Clearcreek fire in Idaho back in 2000, but did not take any pictures. I had a great time working with them, but learned that the Marines shouldn't use chainsaws. They think they are light sabers and dam near gave me a coronary before I was able to stop one of them from falling a tree on his buddies. Much safety training ensued after that. I had a great time working with them and they didn't even give me too hard of time for being Navy!

Still missing fire,
Domaque.
4/27 To the Studebaker family,

It has been many years since Andrew was in my 4th and 5th grade class at Hardy Elementary but the family has not been forgotten. Don is remembered here as a quiet dad who stayed in the background. I think of Andrew and the family everytime I wear the earrings that were given to me as a gift. During my years with Andrew, Don was in Hawaii a lot and Andrew spoke of him often.

The entire Hardy staff is keeping the Studebaker family in our thoughts at this time of loss.

Christine Garica
4/27 Hi abs, all;

In reading through all of the reports regarding the tanker fleet, something has come to mind that is disturbing. All media sources seem to assume that whatever happened to T-26 was a result of its aged condition or a mechanical failure or something of that nature.

The latest news I have read regarding the investigation was that the airframe was intact and all engines appeared to be running at the time of the accident. Perhaps it was something mechanical that caused us to loose T-26 and her crew, perhaps it was a birdstrike, or any other of the myriad unseen dangers that lurk in the mountain air--but the media has just assumed the worst and reported it as truth. I believe that the standards of fair and unbiased journalism have been irreparably lost, and this is just another example of it.

I also believe that our tanker pilots and crews deserve better than this treatment. I was once told by my helicopter pilot to never worry about boarding a plane because pilots don't have a death wish. If they believe the aircraft is flyable, it probably is. The media seems to think that our tanker pilots lack this form of common sense.

Class C Sagebrush Faller
4/27 Hello,

I was very curious and interested to know why there where no pictures of Marines on your site? My platoon was sent there to help put out smaller fires, back burns and dig fire lines. Even though we played a small roll, some help was better than none at all.

Regards,

M. Misiak

Well. . .uh, I'm only guess'in, but maybe nobody took a picture of y'all and sent it in? OA.
4/27 Hey Ab + All --

Read about these "high-tech detectors on top of ridges" in & around
Deadwood a couple of weeks ago in a short AP article -- immediately
thought, lookouts? -- and had a lot of questions. I found this article
on USA Today:

www.usatoday.com

Anyone have any insight on exactly how these work? It says they detect
growing fires ... so smoke columns, then, or is there some sort of
heat sensing gizmo?

Interesting, hmm?

-Alyssa
4/27 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
4/27 From Firescribe: Articles on air tankers.

Are aging air tankers heading back too soon?

Forest Service may acquire more tankers like one in California crash

CA Governor promises to fund tanker fleet

Widows file suit over tankers
4/27 I was wondering if anybody knew if the governor of CA is going to mandate
the "4 on" law again. I had some great interviews with CDF but they told me
whether i get a job would depend on the governor.

KID
4/27 John - Thanks for being there for Don in his time of need. I know you
and your engine company did everything humanly possible for him. As
a good friend once told me," it was a tough card to draw but the right
person who drew it."

Brian Rhodes
Captain-USFS
4/26 Members of the wildland family,

I've debated for the past couple of days exactly how to word this letter
without seeming too, um, something. Can't quite think of the word I'm
looking for. I just wanted to share my feelings about Studebaker's passing
with the community here. Some here may know me as a PSC2 trainee on a Type
2 team, but on Sunday I was the engine captain at the Studebaker residence.

Federal privacy rules forbid me from telling any details of his illness, but
from the end result it should be obvious. I initially couldn't see a lot of
Don because my FF and FF/PM were taking care of him. Because they were in
the way, I didn't recognize him. As I always do, I was talking to the
family gathering information. I asked his wife his last name and she said,
"Studebaker, do you need me to spell that for you?" I didn't need help. I
almost asked if they were related to Don, but just then my medic moved and I
could see the comb-over. Uh oh. Anyone here who's treated a sick or hurt
friend knows the feelings I had then. I asked Don if he needed me to call
anyone. As sick as he was, he still asked me to call one of my chiefs as
they were scheduled to meet on Monday. Don was supposed to teach a class
for our newly formed Type 3 IMT.

Basically, we got Don to the hospital very quickly. I knew that some calls
had to be made, but my cell phone was back at the station. I'll always feel
badly that I couldn't stay at the hospital to help the family more, but at
the time I felt it was important to let some people know what was happening.
My plan was to make some calls and get back down the the hospital.
Unfortunately, Don passed before I could make it back down.

As much as it sucked to see a mentor ill, I'm glad that I was the one there
to help. Most other city captains wouldn't have recognized the name or the
man. I'm glad that I was able to make some calls and help the family as
best I could. I wasn't as close to Don as many here. I'm sorry for your
loss.

John Fisher
San Diego Fire-Rescue

John, good to have one of our community present when needed. Ab.
4/26 Thinking of Don, I did a quick web search and came up with these.......
Anyone have more to share?

TC

Don 1, Don 2, Don 3

Thanks TC. Ab.
4/26 SL,

Are you Sean Lyman? That's a picture of the BLM Rookie class of '93.
I think only Rob Allen (far left, standing) and Allison Cushman (far left,
kneeling) are still jumping.

Sunil Ramalingam
4/26 I have just heard that the mess hall at the Alaska Fire Service will
no longer be serving Steak or Crab this year. What is up with
these budget cuts???

Cannon Mix
4/26 Mellie,

Sorry about the time it took to respond.... been outa touch.

As NorCal Tom posted, the prework for the MCS presented L-380 is Jon Krakauer's "Into Thin Air". A harrowing account of a 1996 Mt Everest climb and the decisions that led to the outcome.....

The article "Communicating Intent and Imparting Presence" by Lieutenant Colonel Lawrence Shattuck is in either the L-180 or L-280 Student Workbook I believe.....

yactak
4/26 Hi abs, all;

I just got a forward regarding one of my bro's, Wes Gissel. He was attacked on Jan 31 in Modesto, and stabbed several times. CDF is trying to raise some funds to offset the cost of care for his injuries.

On a more personal note, this is even more of a tragedy as he was just becoming fully recovered from his involvement in a CDF rollover in '02.

I have been unable to attach the announcement that I was e-mailed, so I am asking for anyone more computer savvy than I that has knowledge of this situation to paste a link regarding the full details of his conditon and where to send help.

Hang in there, bro. We're pulling for ya.

Class C Sagebrush Faller

I fiddled around a bit and was able to transform the forward I got into a recognizable format.

the announcement is as follows:
CDF FIREFIGHTER WES GISSELL FUNDRAISER

THIS FUNDRAISER IS SOLELY TO PROVIDE FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO THE FAMILY OF FIREFIGHTER WES GISSEL. WES IS RECOVERING FROM A HORRIFIC ATTACK THAT HAS LEFT HIM NEEDING LONG TERM CARE. YOUR CONTRIBUTION WILL GO ENTIRELY TO WES’S FAMILY TO OFFSET THE ENORMOUS DEBT THEY CONTINUE TO SHOULDER, WHILE AIDING ONE OF OUR BROTHER FIREFIGHTERS.

PLEASE GIVE GENEROUSLY

- CDF Firefighter Valley Springs FFS West Point FFS
- BLM Hotshot Silver State Hotshots
- Previously injured in E4453 rollover in Southern California Summer of 2002

DONATIONS

- Cash accepted

- CDF Employees:
Make checks payable to:
KEN ONSTAD
BENEVOLENT FUND

- NON-CDF Employees:
Make Checks payable to:
GARY GISSELL
(Wes’s father)

4/26 The world is a lesser place, but having a new angel like Don is the positive side of his passing that I will try to think about.

TM
4/26 As everyone knows we have lost a great leader and mentor in the wildland fire service
Don Studebaker. Friday there will be service for the family and close friends, with a full
military graveside service May 3 for immediate family only. A Memorial Service is tentatively
scheduled for next Friday May 7, time & location to be announced later. When the
information becomes available it will be posted. The family has requested in lieu of flowers,
donations made to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation or Boys Scouts of America.

SO BC
4/26 In honor of Stude.... and his lack of political correctness and his willingness to call a spade a spade, and a jack a jack..... (Be safe... you were a great mentor and a leader... your principles and leadership will be seen and used for years!!! Damn, Stude, I will miss ya!!)

JB,

What the hell are you talking about with the "current regional implementation plan"??? The SUBE class is intended to train wildland firefighters for hazards and how to mitigate them in association with their wildland fire duties in the wildland urban interface.... nothing less and nothing more.

The leading State wildland fire agency (CDF) only provides a total of 56 hours (All-risk and wildland training for its FF1's). Lets see, the USFS provides 32 hours of basic wildland fire training..... 8 hours of ICS training... and then SUBE.... 32 hours of All-Risk training in the interface topics...... then add on local training for hazards that have been identified in the local response areas.... ie- railroads, power transmission grid, freeways and highways, gas pipelines, gangs and violence, earthquakes, floods, etc.... JB, don't forget where experience actually trumps training...!!!!

If there is an "implementation plan" please share it with us, the wildland firefighters!!!!

Lobotomy

P.S. - As I sit here in Missoula, I am amazed to see vehicles from outside of R-5 having the designators... DV 2 and CH 3 on them... MSF.. and SCF.... hmm... times have changed.
4/26 Stress and the lifestyle we all experience.

Folks, with the passing of Don, and the fact that his partner and supervisor of so many years, Richard Hawkins, has also experienced a heart attack recently, we all need to keep in mind the implications of the stress-filled life we all lead. We all owe it to our family, co-workers, friends, and ourselves to maintain a fitness program, live as healthy a life as possible, and work on managing stress in ways which are not so caustic to our bodies and minds.

Don told me recently that he was looking forward to other warm climates, work as an AD, and getting healthy. He's one of those role models of mine who made a big impression in my life, and the fire world as a whole. I can only hope that I will be able to accomplish a millionth of what he did.

Stanley
4/26 Hey SoOps!

Wake up! McCormick retired! Vail retired! Things have happened since '04!

Your News & Notes site is a joke! UPDATE IT!

A DISGRUNTLED CUSTOMER
4/26 Mellie, the book for L-380 is Into Thin Air.

NorCal Tom
4/25 No message beyond this identifier, but what a bunch of youngsters... then.
I still need to get all the photos you readers sent in sized and on photo pages. Thanks for your patience.
More SJ pics ... Ab.

AK Smokejumper Rookies 1993

SL
4/25 just a photo I thought I would share...

Martis Fire 2001 Truckee River

Found your website, great service...

Esther M

Welcome Esther. Thanks for the pic. Ab.
4/25 From Firescribe:

AT articles...
Widows of pilots take grief to court

Waterbombers to the rescue?
Giant Russian aircraft may be sent to replace grounded U.S. air tankers
(Good grief, I don't think so... Anybody know for sure?)

For the All Risk people:
Bright Idea: Los Alamos gear tracks hazardous plumes

For Retired L.A.V.E.
Fire tax re-emerges
4/25 Thanks for the info NMAirBear. I will thank him when I see him.

So sorry to hear that Don is gone.

So sorry that Don is gone. Big boots to fill...

Don received the Cal Yarborough Award for outstanding Division Chief awarded in 2001 by the R5 Division Chiefs, USFS... to one of their own. Prestigious award, well deserved.

Amazing firefighter,
Amazing leader,
Amazing man.

Tahoe Terrie
4/25 Re Unified Command:
Another SD firefighter, formerly of CA ,

As a FF that has worked all over the country I have always gotten a kick out of the prejudice/envy/mockery other regions have for R-5. Your link clearly shows that when other folks follow the lead of R-5, good things happen. The quote:

Brown and Lowe, however, insisted that the "unified command" system could have profound results in the fire-prone Black Hills. "They've used it for years in California," Lowe said. He spent most of his firefighting career there. Unified command is a management structure that allows various firefighting agencies to come together quickly to coordinate firefighting efforts." says volumes.

Other regions are also looking at R-5's cost apportionment model, because it works.

Folks need to just realize that when a certain area has more fire, in a more complex environment, before most other areas, they are bound to come up with better ways of doing business. It has nothing to do with elitism, it has to do with experience and practice.

Transplanted R-5er.
4/25 I would like to express my condolences to the Studebaker family in their time of grief.
I certainly agree with Mellie's comments about Don. He was a excellent leader and
role model for younger firefighters. When I first became Deputy IC on Team 4 with
Jack Lee, Don was our Plans Chief and I will always cherish the time that I had to sit
and talk with Don when we had those down times. To get to know the intellect, hidden
skills and sense of humor that the man had. He will be truly missed in the fire
community.

Hutch
4/25 Hi Ab,

We at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation would like to send our condolences regarding Don Studebaker's passing. We have heard many stories about him. He touched many people with his integrity and passion for his job. We so appreciate the wisdom and knowledge left behind by Don, and people like him.

Our most sincere and heartfelt thoughts go out to all of you in California and our wildland firefighting community.

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
4/25 I am shocked and heartbroken to hear that Don has passed. He has been one of my favorite mentors, always ready to answer questions, to prod me to think further, a renaissance wildland firefighter and groundpounder at heart. He never ceased to amaze me... and make me laugh, often with delighted surprise! I can remember when I first met him and realized that many - on first glance - might underestimate his intellect, his photographic memory for maps, the fire & his peoples' locations, and his leadership. John Campbell the great mythographer would say that Don Studebaker was the archetypal groundpounder, wildland firefighter cum incident commander, truly a professional wildland firefighter of the old school. I loved it that Don was honest above all. Forget PC!

Several unofficial exchanges with Don stick out in my mind (my Don Studebaker slide collection) - They all have such positive emotional charge...

  • Sitting in the back row left side of the Division Chiefs meeting in the dark some years ago with him and Jeanne P-T, getting filled in (whispering) regarding large fire suppression costs, large fire's relation to failing to pick those fires up on IA, and the link between IA's success and resources (budgeted, funded, trained) and resource placement.
  • The video of an IC telling a loafing crew they didn't "cut the mustard" in no uncertain terms.
  • Talking with him one time over lunch in Sacramento about computer systems, simulation and training, IC3T certification, the timeframe everyone was operating under to get that done before fire season. He was so knowledgeable of fire, of his people, of strategy/tactics, of human factors, of the internet, of computer programming...
  • A discussion of the probable future of the wildland firefighting organization given the current OIG involvement and its impact on safety.
  • His announcement that he was finally retiring, his comment "I've traveled all over this country and you all should be proud of this BOD" and being so choked up when giving him a hug that I couldn't speak. We did talk that night at a party and he shared his plans, which did include fire and meant I wouldn't be loosing his presence, knowledge, and friendship entirely.

The wildland fire world is smaller for his passing. My life is much richer for his presence. I will not forget him. I would not be surprised if there will be moments when I will hear him in my mind reminding me to think about this or that in a particularly Studebaker firefighter way. I call such times my "studebaker moments". I am sure many others he interacted with and mentored have such rich and instructive memories.

My love and prayers for his family... I never had the good fortune to meet them in person, I can't imagine their loss.

My fire friends, take time to appreciate the people you admire, the people who have mentored you, the people who have made a difference in your lives. What we have for sure is the moment and the truth that lives in it. We need to tell people who make a difference thanks in the moment we can. I almost didn't give Don a hug that day because I was so choked up and a bit embarrassed at my feeling of loss. Thanks to the friend who prodded me to do it anyway.

Mellie

4/25 JB,

Our northern CA forest has been trained and using SCBA for about 10 years now. We do not do structure firefighting but protect exposures during wildland fire. Occasionally we back up our red partners on a structure fire but only from the outside. We also use SCBA on vehicle fires. Most forests in R5 have had SCBA for many years. If your forest has just started, you are just catching up with the times. Let go of your fear of change and if your training isn't adequate check with the other forests and bring in better training. It isn't necessary to stand down the whole region. Most of us are quite safe in using this tool.

On another note, I am shocked to hear about Don Studebaker. He was a good man. My deepest, heartfelt wish for peace goes to his family and friends.

FirenWater
4/25 This is an open letter to everyone in the wildland world.

April 24, 2005

To all it may Concern:
It is with deep concern that I write this letter. It is my personal opinion and feelings that Region five of the U.S. Forest Service going All-Risk under the current regional implementation plan will jeopardize firefighter safety and well being. As such I feel that region wide all firefighting activities outside of the Forest Service’s scope and training should be brought to a stop until a time where a proper implementation and training program can be set up to properly train our employees for all risk activities.

I recently attended the SUBE class that is considered the Agency curriculum for training our firefighters for All-Risk activities. This class is thirty-two hours in length and very broad and general in the teachings and assumed that a lot of the people in the class had previous Structure experience. Coming from a forest that is just now engaging in putting SCBAs on their engines and beginning to train their personnel in structure tactics and ideals. I see a huge experience and training gap in the system. Many of the firefighters much less the Captains have never donned an SCBA or for that matter even seen one. This brings up the question of whether or not the Forest Service/Region 5 is providing the proper standardized training and facilities to bring all supervisors and firefighters to an equal and specific trained level in all-risk management. Some proactive people in the fire agency have chosen to seek out training and self-betterment outside of the Federal training system to keep themselves and their crews safe, but should they really have to do this?

Myself being one of these people, I jumped on board with a local municipal department as a pay per call firefighter. This department has a great reputation for their training program. It is easily one of the top two volunteer training programs in the state. They comply with the State of California’s Fire Fighter 1 training curriculum to create competent and safe structural firefighters. This program is one hundred and fifty hours plus (150+) of classroom and hands on training. Which is truly required to produce and maintain a safe work force in an all-risk atmosphere. Just comparing the number of hours involved in the state certification process versus the Forest Services training program should be alarming enough. People may argue that the certification process includes wildland fire classes and so the hours are knocked down a lot by this. The state certification of structural firefighters only includes forty hours (40) of wildland training which leaves one hundred and ten plus hours of critical safety training, which by no means creates a structural/all-risk specialist. They are more like a first year wildland firefighter that has yet to put the knowledge and techniques they have learned to use and build their slides of experience. So I pose these questions to everyone that reads this letter in the coming days. Why do we not use California’s training program for our people? What happen to putting our employees first? Am I an expendable asset after the thousands of dollars of training the Forest Service has put into me?

So here is my proposal to go all-risk in region 5. Here is how we all answer these questions and concerns.
  • First: Take a step back from all-risk for a few years till you have trained and competent crews in all-risk.
  • Second: Create an interagency training center in region 5 for all-risk training with the facilities to give attending students some hands on experience while providing a safe atmosphere. Utilize the masses of structure firefighters in California as an experienced and well-trained Cadre. Run it a lot like the NIJAC program where trainees spend a one-month period for two consecutive years at this academy. Tie in with the local departments around the academy so that the students have a chance to ride along with a city or suburban department. To get a little “real world” experience under their belts.
  • Third: Fight and get comparable salaries for firefighters to have retention and reduce the cost of constant re-training of new firefighters. Last of all at a forest level tie in more heavily with the local fire fighting agencies that currently are all-risk to help maintain the level of training and to keep abreast of new technology and tactics that are coming along in the industry.

We are facing the realities of an all-risk environment with the increasing number of homes being built along Forest Service and BLM boundaries. It is only natural that we will go all-risk. The question is will we go all-risk with all the tools in our toolbox or will the toolbox only be half full.

JB

4/25 AB Please Post:

Don Studebaker, Retired Deputy Fire Chief for the Cleveland National Forest
had a heart attack on Sunday (April 24), late in the afternoon. He was
rushed to the hospital where he subsequently passed away. The medical team
worked on him for 45 minutes. Funeral arrangements will be forthcoming.
All of our thoughts and prayers go to Don's family who are dealing with
this unexpected loss. Don was an amazing person who always had a story to
tell. He will be missed on the Forest, in the fire community, and among
those who have known him for a couple of months to a couple of years. That
is how Don was, he is not a person who you would forget.

4/25 I don't know really how to say this, so I'm sorry for not being able to find the right words. This afternoon (Sunday, April 24th) Don Studebaker from Region 5 had a heart attack and passed away. I know some one here had mentioned knowing him, maybe it was Mellie? He just had his retirement party from USFS in January. He's been a wonderful mentor to me, and I just want everyone to know (who doesn't already know) that Don was a wonderful man. I was with his family today and we all discussed how everybody who meets him, loves him. I know he did an amazing job in the forest service. His family is in quite a bit of shock as you can imagine, but they also know that he lived to the fullest, and did what made him proud. And to those who had the opportunity to work with him, please know that he loved the job and those he worked with. You were all very special to him.

It's so soon, so I don't know any details about services. I'll call the regional office in the morning and they'll work it out.

I'm so very sorry that we've lost such a great man. I'm gonna miss him.

Newbie (Carrie Bowers)

Don's death is an incredible loss for the wildland firefighting world. Ab.

4/25 I was surfing the channels on Saturday and found a very informative one hour show on fire, "When Fire Goes Wild", it was on the Science Channel but may be on others too. It had several segments on various aspects of what scientists are doing to help firefighters and developing new and better tools. It also had some pretty good shots of fire and good interviews with firefighters who have survived burn overs.

One spot was on the development of the new second generation fire shelter being developed by the bother of the smoke jumper, Roger Roth (I think), who died on Storm King Mtn. The most interesting part to me was when they interviewed a research scientist who was working on computer modeling of fire whirls. She explained how two fire whirls can merge. When they come together they can generate winds in excess of 100 mph and toss fire out in front of the main fire up to 300 feet in less than three seconds. WOW. If you see it in your local listing it's worth the hour to see it, in my humble opinion.

Retired L.A.V.E.

Thanks for the heads up. Ab.

4/25 Just returned from the national A.C.E. conference put on by OAS in Reno and learned
some interesting new things are in the works for Federal Fire/Aviation including:

* The use of satellite tracking for all contract aircraft by 2006 (www.aff.gov) and eventually
3-dimensional satellite tracking for all aircraft, vehicles and specific personnel potentially by
2008 (www.keyhole.com). Keyhole was a technology developed by the C.I.A. in the late
eighties and recently sold to Google.

* The development and use of UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) for IFR and intelligence in the
next several years in conjunction with NASA (OAS or AMB that is) and quite possibly the
development of SEAT UAVs in the next several years.

Quite exciting stuff, dont you think?

JURY12
4/24 I thought this was hopeful. Feels good when it works...

An end to turf battles: New fire-fighting style tested at Camp 5 blaze
Rapid City Journal

"We came together as firefighters rather than as agencies."

Another SD firefighter, formerly of CA

4/24 Seems like I read on one of the GACC pages recently that they would be down -- or might
not work properly -- as the pages get updated to a standard format ... perhaps this is the
problem in the Northwest?

I sure hope standardization won't mean a reduction in information. Sometimes even national
information, like a particular form, could be easier to find on certain GACC sites, and I like
the Southern Region's "unable to fill" list.

Still Out There as an AD
4/24 Tahoe Terrie:

The only good news out of the recent T26 incident is that the pilot of that aircraft for the past several years was not on board. He is now the captain of T20. He is also an ATGS pilot in NM early every year before the Aero Union contracts kick in. So many of us who have flown with him and worked with him from both the ground and air are thankful at least for that.

Tell Greg thanks the next time T20 does a good job for you which will likely be soon. I sure will.

And so many prayers and tears for the families of 3 great men.

NMAirBear
4/24 Yactac, is that article you sent me part of the reading assignment for L-380?

Mellie

4/24 Kimberly S,

SInce most government agencies have most likely filled their seasonal positions for this year, you might want to look for private contractors in your area. IF you have trouble finding any, check with the nearest Forest Service office, they should know if there are any near you. If that doesn't work out, you could try contacting the larger contractors in Oregon. Contractors like Ore-Cal, Greyback, Patrick Environmental, and GHR usually have some sort of project work available to keep their crews fairly busy between fires thruout the summer. You could also contact Firestorm in CA, they are still advertising in the Jobs page on this site and offer in-house training. Good Luck.

John
4/24 I have found myself thinking of our three lost AT pilots with a lot of grief over the
last few days. What a tragedy... Tom, Paul, and Brian... Although I did not know
them well, I can readily picture T-26 in my mind. How often that AT, piloted wisely,
has saved our bacon on IA in northern california. I'll miss the sight. I'll miss the
sound. The AT family and the pilots families have my prayers.

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks for directions to the AT message board Ab. My old bookmark hasn't
worked for a while.

4/24 Anyone know why the NW area GACC page is down or how
long it will be that way? Or is it just my computer?

-FireBill
4/24 Hello, as a graduating high school senior, I'm looking for summer employment opportunities to help pay for college. A friend informed me of your organization, and I'm very interested in becoming a wildland fire fighter. However, I'm still a little confused with how the program works. Is there one common application for national federal jobs, or do I fill an application out for each department? I live in Utah, but I'm willing to travel anywhere. I am currently training to become an EMT, however I don't have any experience with firefighting. I realize the deadline for most application acceptances has already passed, and I was wondering if I would still be able to start work during June. I was wondering what the eligibility requirements are If someone could please contact me through mail or phone with this information, or potential contacts, that would be great. Thanks!

Kimberly S
Kskimbo168 @ aol.com

If anyone would like to reply to Kimberly, I'm sure she'd like to hear. Ab.

4/23 T-26

I have had the opportunity to work with Capt. Paul Cockrell during his piloting of weather modification planes. Paul was one of the best, most knowledgeable pilots that I have ever met. He always made sure that he knew in technical details what was going on, so that he could do not just a good job, but the best job possible. I didn’t know the other captains on T-26, but I know they were Paul’s equals. All three will be greatly missed.

Andrew R.

Readers, in case you don't know, here's another place to express condolences to the pilots' families and friends and to find information on services and memorial funds: the Air Tanker Pilots & Friends Board. Click Commo in the header and follow the links to the message forum. Because of spammers, you sometimes need a registered sign-in to read and write to the forum, but not right now.

CDFer Brian Kornegay, has also placed a link on his Virtual Condolences website for the three T-26 crew members.

Our thoughts and prayers are with those who have lost loved ones. Ab.

4/23 From Firescribe:

Tanker pilots undergo extensive training before taking to the sky

Team spends day scouring tanker crash site

Readers, you can conduct your own search on various fire topics by going to our News page. Clicking on WLF News Search in the left-hand menu takes you to some standard google wildland fire news searches. Ab.

4/22 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated.

Several new job positions are being recruited for Engine Boss, Helitack Crew Members, and Helitack Supervisors. Locations vary. See the Jobs Page for the new ads and more details. Ab.
4/22 To the crew of T-26: You will be greatly missed.

To family and friends: We are here for you. You are all in our thoughts
and prayers. If you ever need anything, all you have to do is ask.

Remember, you are our family, too!

StumpShot
4/22 From Firescribe:

My condolences to friends and families of those lost in the crash of T-26. I think I speak for many groundpounders. What a tragedy.

3 Pilots Die in Crash of Firefighting Plane (with some comments on investigation)
ChicoER (CA -photo)
Daily Review (journalist is from Sacramento CA)
Washington Post
AZ Central
AZ Republic

Pilot killed Wednesday suffered tragedy when...

and on the upcoming IAWF Conference on Human Factors...
University of Montana will be site of wildfire summit
4/22 Ab,

Had not heard the Fire Chat rumors......
Guffaw.......chortle.........LOF LMAO.....

Old Fire Guy

haw haw
4/22 Yes, my response to TOM was incorrect re the number of Prineville Shots and appeared to dismiss the others who lost their lives on Storm King. The minute I hit the send button, I realized my TYPO was inexcusable!

As Mollysboy pointed out: "Most important, regardless of where the folks came from, that we must NEVER forget!"

Lori Greeno (4/19), my sincere apology for forgetting that you & others who have suffered a loss also read this forum & might misinterpret my "left handed" poorly worded suggestion that readers join the 52 Club.

In earlier years, information about individuals or families who suffered a debilitating injury or personal loss was often word of mouth - a small group or community support effort. Thanks to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation folk & this forum, FFs & their families support community has greatly expanded.
....but by the Grace of God....

Grief and sincere condolences to our Chico families,

northzone5
4/21 Thanks Ab, thats what I thought and why I keep coming back.

Gizmo
4/21 Info about the tanker pilots who lost their lives.

Aero Union, the California company that owns the plane, identified the three aboard as pilots Brian Bruns, Paul Cockrell and Tom Lynch.

We will will miss you all, so very much.
For the rest of the story:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=692573

DV
4/21 AB here is a Link to the Story. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=692573

Just put out on the ABC News 1 hour ago.

The plane, a P-3 Orion tanker, went down Wednesday evening in a rugged area of the Lassen National Forest, about 120 miles north of Sacramento.

The steep terrain prevented a rescue helicopter from landing at the crash site, forcing search-and-rescue teams to hike two to three miles to reach the wreckage, forest spokeswoman Leona Rodreick said. "It's a fairly remote spot, and it took them a while to find a route in," Rodreick said. "There are no roads or trails."

The crash caused a fire that burned over two acres by Thursday, and a helicopter and 20 firefighters worked to contain the blaze, officials said.

Aero Union, the California company that owns the plane, identified the three aboard as pilots Brian Bruns, Paul Cockrell and Tom Lynch.

Willie-N
4/21 Hello,

I was looking over your site this morning, checking to see if the tanker
that crashed on the training mission would be found in your photo pages and
getting ready for another fire season and I was wondering if I might make a
suggestion.

See, I drive a fire crew bus for Special Operations Group. I did see some
buggy/bus pictures sprinkled in among your photos for hand crews and fire
camps, I was wondering if, perhaps, you could head a photo page that
involves just crew transport, e.g., Airtankers, Equipment, Engines, Crew
Transport...

While bus drivers aren't on the more glamorous side of firefighting, we do
get some incredible pictures and find ourselves in pretty hairy conditions.
We are, I'd like to believe, an integral part of the firefighting effort,
and deserve some credit for the services the transport companies provide.

A lot of the drivers that work for our company are retired firefighters and
do it because once you get fire in your blood it's hard to get out. While I
am not a firefighter, I have come to enjoy the thrill of being part of the
support system to the men, women and equipment that respond to these
incidents.

We endure a different set of dangers than the firefighters, but dangerous,
nonetheless. One of our drivers was murdered by a firefighter on the job a
few years ago, we are responsible for the safe, reliable transport of crews,
overhead and, in some cases, pilots. I was lucky enough to have been
assigned the tanker pilots one year out of Lancaster (CA). We had a blast.
Before 395.12 was removed and reserved from the Driver Safety Book, we were
allowed to bypass all the legal restrictions on interstate drivers (now
mandated to 10 hours a day) for the first and last 48 hours. That was
dangerous in itself (thank goodness we don't have to do that anymore).

Anyway, I think you understand what I'm trying to say. I hope you consider
my suggestion.

Thanks,

Lori C

You transport folks certainly are an important part of the operation. As you mentioned, one of the Big Bar Complex bus drivers - Dick Blood - was stabbed to death in 1999.

I remember at least one story here of a bus driver who backed down a narrow track to "save" a crew that needed to move fast in front of a blowup. Needless to say, the crewmember who wrote was very appreciative.

We're happy to post photos of crew carriers, especially if they're in the field, have interesting action behind them, have flames or smoke column or have yellow-clad wildland firefighters around them. Some time back the Abs decided we won't make any more divisions of photo pages. It's just too much work. Please, though, we'd be happy to post your photos. Send 'em in. I'm sure we can find a good place for them. Ab.
4/21 Thanks to all the people who have responded to the Fire Jobs announcement for the Mad River R.D. We now have plenty of applicants. But one helpful thing, please, If you have been fired recently for misconduct, drugs etc. or are on felony parole, or have recent felony convictions, we probably will not be able to hire you. We go through former supervisors and check references, and do a thorough background check before making job offers. It can be a waste of your time as well as ours if you apply under these circumstances.

Thanks for all the response,
-MJ

Screen those puppies! Ab.
4/21 Ab,

When I first visited "They Said" I was impressed by the admonition... EXPRESS YOUR OPINION. YOUR IDENTITY WILL REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL. ALL EMAIL IS DELETED AFTER POSTING. STOP LURKING, CLICK THE EMAIL ICON ABOVE."

I know that "They Said" and the "Firechat" is a great place to share knowledge, experience, and education off the record.... Are people just LURKING to squeal on others or institute changes in firefighter safety?

Are things said on internet chat rooms and discussion groups actually listened to by the people who actually make the decisions?

Gizmo

Fire Chat: As far as we can tell, there are no bad lurkers in Chat. People remain civil and engage in interesting discussion, mostly fire-related to some degree or other, sometimes focused on policy, sometimes on local fire issues, training, building a water tender, etc. We have an Apache (a real one) that spirits through on the fringes every once in a while. "Hi Apache, Bye Apache." Our moderator Ember is frequently there. The rumor that Old Fire Guy is one of the regional fire chiefs, unh uh, not so. We hope firefighters raise each other's awareness of issues that impact safety, but Chat probably impacts and educates individuals more than it impacts policy right now. Chat is chat, where else could the Abs and fire crew sit with a brew and not have to drive home afterwards?

Theysaid, in contrast, impacts policy at many levels. Who would'a thunk it? Well we did, we have. We're dedicated to firefighter safety and to firefighter community...

We've discovered a forum like theysaid is called a BLOG. There's a reason that regular newspaper journalists and regular news media are concerned about blogs. People are sharing information on these forums person to person and beyond, and they're not journalists. On theysaid, they're professional firefighters from all over the country and sometimes the world.

Gizmo, our website provides a "statistics report" of general categories of viewers. They show your posts on theysaid are read by all of the interagency fire "categories" in this country and around the world. Theysaid is read by the white house sometimes, by congress, at least the staffers, and by the judicial branch of government. It's read by school kids and aspiring young firefighters, by college kids doing research and building websites, by teachers looking for lesson plans on fire and the environment, by environmentalists. Folks want to know what you're thinking for all kinds of reasons. I'm not surprised. Some good research is done by our dedicated contributors and, ya gotta admit, we do have experienced, knowledgeable and informed posters. We also have entertaining posters, story tellers, poets, people who occasionally rant, vent, stubbornly defend their position, and quirky characters who must'a written in at 3AM.

In the mid to late '80s and early '90s there was talk that the internet would change society because it provides a new "leveling" form of delivery for information exchange. How true that is: the carrier pigeon, printing press, pony express, mass transit, the telegraph, telephone, the television, transatlantic and transpacific cables, satellites, the laser all impacted society. More recently they've been joined by fiberoptics and the internet, and soon, real-time information exchange over all kinds of wireless apparatus, cell phones, plus tv, radio, etc. Boggles the mind.

I pointed out to Original Ab during the primary elections last year that he had created one of the earliest blogs that today is still in existence. We had a good laugh. Neither he nor I named it blog. That's a contraction of "web log". Any marketer would tell you it's not a pretty name for something as cool as theysaid. However, blog may be fitting. It has a kind'a "go ugly early", tongue-in-cheek humorous, wildland firefighter type quality to it.

Ab.
4/21 This came in this morning. Ab.

Due to the crash of T-26 yesterday, Forest Service aviation has requested a
stand down of the P-3 fleet for pilot safety. As soon as we know the
duration of this stand down, we will pass that information to everyone. At
this point we have very little information on the incident with T-26, but
will share that too once an official release becomes available.

Chuck Wamack,
Assistant Center Manager, BLM
National Interagency Coordination Center
4/21 Abs, All;

Sad day for all of us. I was wondering if anyone knows which tanker the P-3 that went down was.

Condolences to all affected,

Class C Sagebrush Faller

T-26. I've heard the families have been notified. There are numerous pics of T-26 on the Waterfall fire and at Minden starting about AirTanker 11 photo page. May they rest in peace. May their families, friends and coworkers find peace. May we all... Ab.
4/21 Newbie,

The reason some places ban face masks is not just that they aren't NFPA approved, but that research has shown that some masks just break up the smoke particles smaller (PM 10,PM 2.5) and can lodge deeper in the lungs, causing more long term damage than larger particles. The USFS has Doctors on staff at research stations that look into these things. When a safe and efficient mask comes out that is usable, we will probably get them.

-MJ
4/21 Thanks to good ol' George for his good work on the ground.
Thanks to SAR. Thanks to Mike. Not an easy task...

Stay heads up.

NorCal Tom.
4/21 Ab,

Here's a link to testing that FEMA is doing

FEMA tests digital alert system
Technology will send messages to wireless devices, radio, TV and the Internet: some excerpts...

The system is currently being tested in the DC area. As someone mentioned, not everyone has access to tv or radio. Broadening the alerting system to all kinds of wireless devices and the internet makes sense in the case of evacuations.

and

[Gary Jones said] officials are asking participants to provide feedback on how well they received the message, whether it was in the right format and whether they were able to re-transmit the message to their customers.

and

By law, the national Emergency Alert System (EAS) reaches 95 percent of the population mainly through TV and radio broadcasts, Hoover said. But not everyone has a television or radio or is constantly watching or listening to them.

"By transitioning to this datacasting technology, you'll get that message if you've got a cell phone or a pager or a [Research in Motion] BlackBerry, or you're sitting on your computer or on your home telephone for that matter," Hoover said. "We think that the capability and reach will not be 100 percent but certainly approaching that."

Interesting times on the interface
Be Safe

Tone-deaf
4/21 Here's the info that's going around R6 on AD Rates
Notes from Regional/Interagency Incident Business Mgt. Meeting
AD rates and incident business updates.

Notes are in red.

R6 F/F
4/21 Ab,

My heartfelt condolences to the families of Aero Union. Some of the finest individuals I have ever worked with in the aviation world.

On a different note could you please post our announcement for our 75th annual Southern California Forester and Fire Wardens Conference. It will be held at Camp Pilgrim pines resort in San Bernardino on May 5 & 6..

Go to www.pilgrimpinescamp.org for directions. I have attached the conference flyer. Cost is only $80.00 for a two day seminar which includes food and lodging. Lodging is cabin style camping. Bring your sleeping bag. Subjects are listed on the flyer however some great speakers will be here for the 75th. They include Chief Geldert – Director of CDF, Author John MacLean – Storm King and beyond, Dan Kleinman on Tactical Decision Making games (Sand Table exercises), 1970-2003 Wildfires – What have we learned – Chief John Hawkins CDF, Staff Rides, Helitack 404 burn over, just to name a few.

Cant beat the program for the price.

Hope see many of you there.

Ray Chaney
CDF FIRE

Ab would be happy to forward the application flyer to anyone requesting it.
4/21 My thoughts, prayers, and condolences are with the families
of the crewmembers lost yesterday in the P-3 crash.

A great big hug and thank you to Misery Whip for letting the
moths free from his wallet! You are my hero.

Lori Greeno
4/21 My condolences to the family and friends of the P-3's flight crew. Wow! It's not even fire
season and we have an air tanker have that has gone down, that is sad.

I was out yesterday at about 3:30 PDT and heard a familiar sound, I looked up and it was
an old piston CDF S-2 pushing its way through the sky. Maybe it was an omen? Don't
know, go with God guys.

Everyone else out there be safe, think safe, safety first, last, always.

Retired L.A.V.E.
4/21 I am so very sorry that we've lost an AT pilot and crew. I feel for
the airtanker community as well as for immediate family and friends.
"Condolences" don't begin to cover my feelings.

Mellie
4/21 Ab, I was listening to one of your scanner sites - NorCal Live out of Red Bluff - link
on the news page last night and heard what sounded like a SAR on an AT crash.
The crash site was not accessible by air. People hiked in. They got there about 0400.
Ishi IC is the name of the operation.

My condolences. This is just terrible.

NorCal CDF

PS: Ab, please add this. Jake who owns and operates Northern California Live just
posted it on the AT message board: location 40deg00.2 x 121deg 42.5
4/21 Aero Union Corporation lost a P-3 and crew yesterday while on a crew
training flight. See attached link.
www.chicoer.com/Stories/0,1413,135%257E25088%257E2828156,00.html

It's another very sad day for firefighters. May the crew rest in peace and
heartfelt condolences to the families.

J.Watt

more: www.modbee.com/state_wire/story/10349838p-11155192c.html

4/21 This is all pretty nebulous. I'm hearing that a CHP helo located a plane
crash near Chico. And the Chico paper is reporting that it's a P3 on a
training mission.

Aero Union tanker crashes: Three crew members believed to be dead
www.chicoer.com/Stories/0,1413,135~25088~2828156,00.html

Sorry that's all I know.

John Fisher
4/20 Hey everyone just seen a thing on the redding news that a air tanker from the aero union in chico has crashed. the crash area is believed to be on the south end of the lassen. also the aircraft that suspected of going down is a P-3. The aircraft was out doing a maintenance flight or check up flight. this doesn't look good for not having any fires yet. well my condolence go out to the families and aero union.

NORCAL FEO

Readers, we appreciate any heads up on accidents. We don't post without verification that the families are alerted and cared for, but we do let the WFF know so they can make arrangements to help the families asap if help is needed. I posted this on 4/21 although it came in last night. Ab.
4/20 Ab, please post the attached. This is going to be a pretty big deal. I
believe they're planning on both FS and CDF Honor Guards, as well as a
bunch of dignitaries. Everyone interested is invited. Mark your
calendars. Hopefully we won't all be out on fires.....
The new overlook (still under construction, but will be done in time) is
very impressive, and a big improvement over the old one.

TC

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The Mendocino National Forest
cordially invites you to attend
The Dedication Ceremony
For
The Rattlesnake Fire Overlook

Saturday, July 9, 2005
10:00 to 11:00 a.m.

Forest Highway 7 (S.R. 162); then 2 miles up Old Alder Springs Road from
the Forest Service boundary sign
(40-minute drive west of Willows, CA)
(parking at Gillaspy Ranch and Firefighter Memorial, with shuttle bus service to the site beginning at 8:30 a.m.)

Ceremony
10:00 a.m.

Optional guided hikes along the trails where the fatalities occurred
11:15 a.m.

Jensen Park, Willows, for No Host gatherings/picnics
Noon to 5:00 p.m.

Questions? Contact Phebe Brown, Public Affairs Officer,
at 530.934.1137, email pybrown @ fs.fed.us,
or mail 825 No. Humboldt Ave., Willows, CA 95988

The Overlook will have interpretive exhibits describing the events of the Rattlesnake Fire on July 9, 1953, that claimed the lives of 15 firefighters. This was one of the deadliest fires in Forest Service history and afterward generated many of the standard safety practices used today to protect wildland firefighters. The exhibits at the site were developed in partnership with California Dept of Forestry and Fire Protection, California Ranch, and Glenn County Fire Chief's Assn. The site will be will be open for use by the general public and will also be used by new and veteran firefighters in their training.
4/20 Eric and Gizmo:

Thanks for the replies, I thought breathing in 900 deg's sounded a little off. I asked one of my instructors about that, thinking that's gotta be too hot to breathe. He confirmed that breathing in 900 degrees would lead to some serious issues. But he also mentioned that the hot shields made it difficult to breathe, so I'll take a look at those Whiffs. Who cares about snot rings anyway?

I looked back in some of the archives here and some one had mentioned that some agencies actually barred employees from wearing protection other than the bandanas, being as they weren't NFPA approved. Well, of course neither is the bandana, but what can you do? Has anything new come up or has the NFPA finally approved anything? I find it hard to believe that the NFPA is not concerned about improving respiratory protection for some one they might have to insure. Or is it that it cost too much for companies to go through the process to get their product approved?

Thanks again,
Newbie
4/20 Update on 3 firefighters in the North Dakota grass fire.

Mark Keller has 3rd degree burns over his chest, arms and face. The back
of his head and neck have 2nd degrees burns. His wife is staying in the
hospital room down the hall, but as soon as another burn victim family comes
in she will have to move to a motel. The Foundation will be notified and
pick up her motel room then.

James Myers is single and has 2nd degree burns around his eyes. They are
looking at doing skin grafts.

Jeremy Olson is married and has 3 little boys, ages 5, 3, 1. He has a broken
foot and 2nd degree burns on both feet.

Lorrie Greeno, thanks your for your post. I know that people in fire spend
most of their careers helping and looking out for others and I know John was
that kind of man. So, I can say from this community that it was an honor to
help you, and your children.

I also know that the Parents of Storm King who put up the monument in
Prineville are some of the finest people who touch this foundation. They
have done a wonderful job in Prineville, and if those parents even hear that
we have a need, and they are sending us money.

I also wanted to mention that the statue going in the Boise Airport is to
help the public to understand and support the role that the Wildland
Firefighter plays in protecting life, property and natural resources in
this country. It is to honor and recognize the hard working, professional
Wildland Firefighter.

Thanks,
Vicki Minor
Director, Wildland Firefighter Foundation
4/20 Regarding the current thread on the AD issue this is a letter to my elected representatives:

On Monday, April 18 you received a faxed letter from the AD Firefighter Association (ADFA) regarding recent attempts to cut pay rates and benefits for casual wildland firefighters hired and paid through the Administratively Determined (AD) hiring authority of the federal government. As a current casual wildland firefighter paid through AD authority I fully support the ADFA in everything stated in that letter.

You need to understand the scope of this issue on your constituents affected—and the potential impact on America’s ability to fight wildfires—is much larger than many seem to realize. In order of degree the groups affected are:

1. Semi-organized Native American and Hispanic Firefighter Crews
2. State Employees who work as ADs using vacation time on large mobilizations
3. Volunteer Fire Department members on large wildfire mobilizations
4. “Seasonal” employees such as schoolteachers and spouses working as dispatchers
5. Retired Fire Management Professionals with critical skills
6. Contract firefighters who are paid on a scale with AD firefighters

The continued loss of wages and/or benefits to ADs has already disaffected all of these constituencies. America is already having trouble filling out fire crews during national emergencies and incident management teams already rely heavily on ADs for positions requiring critical skills and continue to have problems filling these positions. Continuing to disaffect these constituencies will further exacerbate the well-known firefighter shortages that America already faces. I, for one, will not fight fire anymore. I simply cannot afford it. My local casino or Wal-Mart pays better, is a lot safer, is a permanent job, and I get to stay home with my family!

It completely amazes me that the National Wildfire Coordination Group has not enhanced the pay and benefits for casual firefighters in recent years. They instead cut AD wages for most of us by up to several dollars an hour 4 years ago and recently proposed to further cut them by up to 40%!! ADs have been subjected to harassment by federal employees in recent years that smacks of anti-contracting and anti-outsourcing. If this happened to a regular federal employee it would be considered a hostile work environment and grounds for grievance.

I want to meet with you and/or your staff soon. I will be contacting your staff very soon to arrange to do so.

A Neglected and Concerned AD Firefighter
4/20 As part of the ADFA’s effort to increase wages for ADs, in this case the
100+ Type 2 AD Fire Crews, does anyone have a list or partial list of
Type 2 Crews?

In particular, the SWIFF Crew List and Alaska Native Crew List as
well as other Native American and/or Type 2 AD Crews around the
country?

Please e-mail Hugh Carson at adfa@rmci.net

Thanks in advance.

Hugh Carson
Chair, AD Firefighters Association
www.adfirefighter.org
4/20 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
4/20 Ab, here's the

Preliminary 2005 Seasonal Fire Weather / Fire Danger Outlook for the Northwest Geographic Area

R6er

Ab put the nuts and bolts of the report in html since I couldn't find it on the internet. If anyone would like the original word document and/or the single powerpoint image showing the national fire potential outlook, Ab will send it.
4/20 72 Hour Report on the Chainsaw Accident

Heads up folks.
Ab.
4/20 Gizmo and others...

Concerning SOPS and other GACC web pages, YES they are being standardized. With a link off of the NICC page... up and running May 3rd I do believe. Being modeled after the SW pages, one of the best GACC pages we have. Problems in CA are the debate what can go on the inter- and intra-net. A big debate right now. The sites planned to be up this spring not last fall. I will find out more info and with links as soon as I can and post it. Yes even the dispatchers in Northern and Southern CA are frustrated over the debate on what can go where and what can not be on internet in our region but other regions do post. So I will find out what I can.

NOPSer
4/20 Debbie Miley,

It is great to see the things that NWSA is doing to improve the contract resources. Nowhere in my post did I state anything about contractors. My post was meant to bring to light the training that was being provided by a "puppy mill" as NWCG approved courses in order meet the new Oregon Mobe standards. I have been following what the NWSA is doing and I applaud them on being a leader and watchdog for their profession.

Lobotomy (No Fear of Being Mislead... to many ologists, academics, OIG's, friends. and family watching)

A permanent link to NWSA is located on the Classifieds page. Ab.
4/20 newbie, if the air coming through your mask is 900 degrees you have
bigger problems than the neoprene. I have used the whiffs brand and
they work well. Other than the ring of snot they leave behind, I like
them.
eric
4/20 Out of my element:

While the weather warning system you posted about may be somewhat useful for travelers and possibly for firefighters I doubt it will be any more accurate or faster than the local news weather broadcasts or NOAA weather forecasts that we can already get nationwide on our portable radios in the field. I doubt if Storm Hawk has any qualified Fire Weather Forecasters on its staff. Sounds more like something the storm chasers and recreational users might like. The technology part minus the GPS tracking of my location sounds like it may be something that could be integrated into our dispatch organizations but how much better is it than what we already have access to.

I am also pretty sure I do not want some private company tracking my whereabouts by GPS or any other method to tell the truth. We are living in an age in which it is becoming increasingly more difficult to maintain any privacy. With RFID on many of the products we buy and other methods of tracking our personal habits these private companies and the Government are amassing huge amounts of personal information. These same companies have a very bad habit of selling our personal information to anyone who pays a fee. All this type of technology just brings us one step closer to the reality of Orwell’s Big Brother. I’ll pass thanks.

If they really are watching you, can they call you paranoid??

Winston Smith
4/20 A question for the masses.

I would like to know what should be done with Rangers that over step their powers. We currently just submitted our list for temp hiring on our District. The hand crew came out with 70% minority and women on the crew after their selections. The Ranger asked to look at the list of the people who weren't selected and then started questioning why they weren't offered positions. The only people he was interested in were the people of hispanic decent, the ranger is also hispanic. All the people that weren't selected either had bad references or no experience and that didn't matter. Currently the crew is 50% hispanic which is pretty impressive for an isolated district in Northern Cal. Our crew boss has been recruiting people all winter, going to job fairs, handing out flyers, notifying military bases and the list goes on. It really angers me that now he isn't being allowed to hire his own crew and the ranger is now trying to make the selections. Our FMO made the statement "when is enough enough?" a question I wish someone would answer.

signed: Lets start getting more resource managers and let go of all these career managers
4/19 Newbie,

If your neoprene mask melts at 900 degrees.... don't worry... you will already be severely burned and dead. Its alot like the old argument, "We must use metal helmets, plastic melts".... take those "goggles off of your hard hat, they'll melt." or the most recent one from a state agency.... you can't use that webgear because it melts!!!.... or it may just be the hard old fact that wildland firefighters hate change.... and some of the best changes for safety come from a newbie asking questions.

If my webgear or anything I'm wearing is being exposed to those temperatures, I must have done something wrong.

Gizmo
4/19 Ab,

I have to ask, is the dialogue between Out Of My Element and Jackson legit? It sounds very much like a set piece advertisement for Storm Hawk, if you know what I mean. If either one of these folks has any connection to Storm Hawk, they should be ashamed of themselves for not publicly stating their association with this product. If I am mistaken, please forgive my suspicious and wicked mind.

This past fire season, the Missoula Jumpers and MTDC were testing military style battle-hardened laptop computers coupled with digital cameras, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, GPS, satellite connections, etc. If the Storm Hawk really is a worthwhile gizmo it should be impartially evaluated by fire people in the field.

I was quite moved by Lori Greeno's touching and eloquent appeal for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. I admire her for caring enough to publicly support the WFF in spite of having lost her husband just a few weeks ago. I cannot imagine the courage this must have taken.

Looks like our They Said family has another reluctant, but much loved, member of The People Who Really Care About Wildland Firefighters Club. Lori, whether you realize it or not, you have many friends out here. Please consider this an invitation to post here anytime you damn well please.

I am finally going to do what my miserable cheapskate skinflint Scrooge self should'a already done long ago, I'm going to write a check to the 52 Club right after I send this.

Misery Whip

Haw haw. Wicked mind. Yeah, both are legit, both are wildland firefighters with no product to sell. Ab.
4/19 SoCal FF,

I don't have the 72 hr. report here at home, but the upshot was:
kick back + broken chain brake = injury to face and teeth.
He apparently had all PPE except long sleeves.

BB
4/19 Northzone5 - 9 members of the Prineville IHC died on the South Canyon Fire;
the others were 3 SJ's (1 from Missoula and 2 from McCall) and 2 helitackers.

Most important, regardless of where the folks came from, that we must
NEVER forget!

Mollysboy
4/19 always wear your PPE!
thought you might like the attached photo

eric
4/19 vfd cap’n,

You said, “Their cover memo makes it clear that they're not interested in hearing from outsider