I recall Bulletin Board Systems. Way back, many years ago, there wasn't a public Internet as we know it now. The BBS systems were the precursor to the Internet. They were privately owned and operated computer systems that provided discussion forums, email, chat rooms, software downloads, and much more. It was all DOS based and one had to know or learn a certain amount of text commands to make anything happen. There wasn't any windows based point and click happening. And unless you lived in a select few big cities, you were forced to pay big bucks to the phone company for connecting long distance, not to mention the monthly fees the BBS charged. My monthly phone bills were regularly over $250. I didn't consider it a big deal and was happy to be able to reach out and communicate. OriginalAb.

PS: I also know what Trumpet Winsock is.

There does not have to be a "failure" in leadership for a line of duty death to occur. All of us are aware of the x-factor. I believe that no amount of training, no amount of equipment, even the most experienced of personnel will be bitten by the x-factor. I just wanted to point that out - that even the best laid of plans can get buggered.

eric

NW

See Cathy Rucker's post below regarding the timeframe of the NIOSH Report.

Those doing the report probably had something new on carbon monoxide brought to their attention and they added it. It's not like some info was left out of the most recent report on the Novato website. Good info was added.

I downloaded the first Novato report last May. I should update that one on the server here to include the carbon monoxide information. Ab.

Welcome Cathy, sorry for your loss. I hope you know it's not our intention to inflict more pain. Firefighters just have to hash things out to see what can be learned. Ab.

<chuckle>
I thought the reason we went to training was so we would use it afterwards. I put up all the possible topics to encourage people to think about possible issues.

Sometimes I just can't help myself...

Mellie

PS Engineer Rucker's failure to go to the house is a puzzle we may never have the answer to. One simple possible human factors explanation comes from the "fight or flight" adrenalin and heart rate research. When we get charged up with adrenalin, it affects our whole body. Our heart rate increases automatically and lots of other human factors come into play. Ab could you please put up this quick Table of how adrenalin affects heart rate and other human functions. Fire sights, sounds, smell, heat overwhelm the senses, triggering massive adrenalin release. Engineer Rucker could simply have had an extreme adrenalin release and a heart rate increase into the red zone that made him confused, and be unable to run. There are individual differences in how people respond to that kind of stress.

So, the Cedar Fire Report is the latest catalyst to controversy and discussion. That is what this site was put together for (correct me if I am wrong Ab). And so far there has been some provocative ideas put forth. Again, that is what the site is for, right?

But, it appears that some feathers have been ruffled and some offense has been taken. Cooler heads, like Mellie and others have tried to get folks to focus on what we can learn from and avoid 'pointing fingers'. I applaud those efforts even though and precisely because I have been perceived to be abrasive and out of line at times. Sometimes it has been for a purpose, to be provocative, others it was misguided attempts at humor.

A respected colleague of mine reads They Said but never responds because he feels that too many folks just use this site to spout off with out having any real insight, he may have a point, but I wish he would contribute, he has some great ideals... and ideas.

One of the problems with a BBS (Bulletin Board System) is that it relies on the written word which is inherently limited. Readers cannot hear inflection, see body language and sense other cues that give clues to intent and emphasis. Don't get me wrong, this place is a great resource and has contributed greatly to the availability of info, and chance for discussion, I am just pointing out one of its limitations. Trust me I understand them better since certain communications produced an unintended misunderstanding.

But it is all worth it for such a provocative site, right?

Provocative: Function: adjective: serving or tending to provoke , excite, or stimulate

{Merriam-Webster Online}

BB

The State of Idaho Department of Lands is recruiting for two full time positions of Lands Resource Managers - Fire. One entry level, one Senior position. The application period closes June 17th, see the Jobs Page for more info.

Ab.

Thanks Old Fire DOG. Another piece for looking at the puzzle. Ab.

KB

Thanks, Ab.

What happened? (Read about it.) What are the unanswered questions in your minds? Here are some things I thought of as I read along. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on any and all of the following that is not clear in the report:

• Was there an up-to-date plan? Large plan (IAP?). Small plan: saving the house safely? Was the plan accomplished? If there was no plan, why not? If the plan failed, why?
• What led to entrapment? Were standard procedures followed pre-entrapment? Which ones were not? Why not?
• After entrapment, were standard procedures followed? Which ones were not? Why not? Why did some survive, but not Engineer Rucker?
• If we use the Swiss Cheese Model of causality, what was the " proximal cause"? What were the "latent causes"? What holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up? Where are agency and fire organization strengths? All agencies/organizations? Where are agency and fire organization weaknesses? All fire agencies/organizations?
• We're interagency in this day and age; we need to communicate better and better. How can we do that?
• Training. At a minimum do we need training standards like CICCS or 310-1 or something more like FSH 5109.17. What about physical training and physical fitness standards? How might we bring all cooperators up to speed on training? Do we need to do that?
• A good leader knows the "team member" strengths and weaknesses and uses them appropriately. Would it be better to match agencies/organization's current training, experience and job (structure vs wildland) with assignment? Can we track that with technology?
• What part did human factors play in this tragedy? How might knowledge of human factors help firefighters make better choices? Would this help at all? (Aside: Did the hotshield masks that Rucker and McDonald wore have any effect? Do they off-gas at high temps?)
• What part did leadership play? How might formal leadership skills help us make better choices? What impact did human factors have on leadership decisions?
• Experience. How is experience with wildland fire documented in each organization? How do we keep those with not enough experience out of leadership roles?
• Competence. How do we make sure that firefighters at every level are competent to perform their job as safely as possible? How do we fire those who are not competent? Is it easier for fire departments to fire incompetent firefighters than for land use agencies to fire incompetent firefighters? Measurable standards?

Readers, the political wrangling and infighting following the 2003 Cedar Fire After Action Review was sad. It had lots of potential that was not realized. Let's do better than that. Please, let's educate each other.

Mellie

<snip, a theysaid post November 11/9/04>

It is in my hopes that the CDF heads will not turn a blind eye as they have done in the past. They need to make public now that it does not end with this report and that they are investigating further actions. Regardless of the agency, accountability must be up held.

R5 Dirtminer

I think the release of this report makes the burnout information public. Ab.

There are alternative explanations for Engineer Rucker's behavior in my opinion. Ab.

I took out the repeated reference to CDF in the post with the 19 points. I can see how you might interpret it as CDF bashing. Knowing the poster, I know that was not the poster's intent. FYI, there has been CDF input on this thread, so this isn't simply a case of non-CDF firefighters ganging up on CDF.

That said, Firefighters, let's remember to focus on "the what, not the who" for the best lessons learned. I appreciate that CDF has released the report and commend them. We can all learn from it. We will have interface fires in the future. We should be more ready. Ab.

• First let me say we all were doing the best we could during the Cedar Firestorm, especially for the first few days. Resources were committed to the firestorms to our north. We were short. We were watching communities go up in smoke. We knew some people were loosing their lives. Day1 we were all acting fairly independently as we tried to get the organizations and coordination up to speed. By Day2-3 we were doing better but anyone who was there can tell you we were in combat mode the whole time. Some more experienced firefighters more than others. Willing structure firefighters who wanted to help were rolling in. By Day5 there was still a sense of urgency. Adrenalin was way too high. We need to guard against that in the future if we can.
• Communications. We need to do better. If you can't communicate, pull back.
• Fire training. We need to do better for firefighters not well trained or experienced in wildland. Grass fires are not the same as the conflagration we faced on the Cedar. Structure training is very different than wildland. It's hard if not impossible to be trained and experienced in both. When push comes to shove we go back to our training. We need to recognize our strengths and weaknesses and the strengths and weaknesses of our brothers/sisters. We need to place them on tasks they can accomplish successfully and safely. If/when we have a terrorist HAZMAT situation we will need to recognize that the situation will be way beyond the training and experience of many of our wildland firefighters. We will need those trained in hazmat to consider our training and inexperience.
• Escape Routes/Safety Zones: When you have a hammer all you see is nails. When you're a structure firefighter experienced with small grass fires, you see a structure as a safety zone, instead of seeing it as just another fuel type.
• Dedicated Lookout: Hard to remember this one when you're focused on structure. Harder yet to find someone that can really see and read the fire behavior. Saddle anyone? Smoke from several directions?
• When people see something they've never seen before, they often don't make good choices. Whose fault is that? When firefighters don't know what they don't know, most will think they know how to handle it and they try. It's in our nature to try.
• Finally. Most firefighters will assume those around them have a similar level of experience and can take care of themselves. We can't afford to make that assumption on the interface with interagency resources.

That's my twobits for a start.

Sign me socal CDF (Another one)

I couldn’t help but look back in your archives and re-read “Fire it Up!” from a few years back. Paragraph 7:

“I must say to be fair though, some of this effectiveness is also due to the inexperience of DIVS and other overhead not being very creative in how to use them, so it is not entirely the fault of the OES strike team. This is why you see reference to the "Lawn Chair" syndrome. Even the OES strike team leaders are getting a little more savvy to this and are trying to be a bit more discrete in the use of the dreaded chair and find meaningful work for their team. It's even covered now in I-330 STL class as a no-no!”

I can’t help but think that this lawn chair culture somehow had a part in all this. Local, state, and federal resources approach these fires differently. State and federal approach this work as another day on the job whether that is on forest, off forest, or in county or out of county. To local government, an out of district response is something rare and afforded to the few. It is a party, a chance to “get out” and go have some fun and see some big fire and play with the big dogs. Probably sounds harsh and arrogant, but it is a reality.

I am glad to see the CDF finally release something more than one of their standard 2-3 page “green sheet” on a major accident investigation. As much as some of these things must sting to those involved, there are valuable training lessons here to be learned that would never have been brought to light. I wonder though if this was an intentional release, there is nothing official about internally from the Sacramento office about it. Go to the CDF website and find it if you can without the link provided on They Said It.

Questions or thoughts generated in my mind after a first time read:

1. Was the DIVS local, state or federal? Does that matter? Maybe so.
2. Was the CDF Captain an experienced hand that saw something inevitable coming and reacted deliberately (independent action vs free lancing) to it, knowing full well he was operating in a manner inconsistent with accepted risks for when things don’t work out (“Stud vs Pud”)?
3. Why was the FC so adamant earlier about an aggressive tactical plan? Were things so stagnant that he felt he needed to take the world by the balls?
4. Would he have acted this way with CDF resources around him? Would those resources have understood the situation differently? Would the captains on those resources “kicked his F@$%*&^ ass” for doing what he did or proposed to do?
5. Did the local government people understand what they were seeing from the fire and what the fire effects were about to be from the main fire?
6. Lawn chair syndrome (again) by local government and the party is on, we get to go on the road again yippee!
7. No common communications between forces at a critical time when everyone needs to be on the same channel (or at least the DIVS and STL’s).
8. It looks like the only guy who really sized up the whole thing was the El Cariso Supt-things got weird and he re-grouped.
9. Did the Novato engineer listen to what the Novato captain was telling him to do?
10. How can the Novato FF not have had a hose pack and yet there is a burned up pile of hose next to him. Somebody was trying to fight fire with more hose.
11. Reaction time of the Novato crew vs rate of spread.
12. Why was the engine spotted where it was in the first place-between the main head fire and the house? And how come it is the only thing that didn’t burn to the ground? If it didn’t burn then that means there was an opportunity for something else to not burn. Something isn’t adding up here at all.
13. Could the engine have been parked down the driveway somewhere and hose laid back up the driveway?
14. Why was the crew trying to force a door at a critical time and why were they doing from the fire side of the house? Did anyone look first to see if the doors were unlocked or open one first long before the fire got to them if they intended to stay? Why didn’t they run around the lee side of the house and get in there? No doors?
15. Did they understand what the Captain and engineer were doing? Sounds like it was a parallel operation trying to hold back the inevitable.
16. Why were the FIREFIGHTERS taking PICTURES on fire impinging on them instead of fighting fire, etc….
17. Why do the agencies (state or fed) put local government resources in these positions during critical fire weather, fuels and behavior alone without agency resources? We don’t put private dozers alone any more for this very reason.
18. There is NOTHING new that needs to be created in the training world to mitigate this incident. It all exists now. This should be the case study for the L-180 through L380 series. Perfect fit.
19. Don’t burden us with more rules and restrictions as a result of this, most can see the problems here and will use this report to revisit them.

I feel for the FC, he has a long road of scorn ahead of him, but then again, it is all about choices (#2 above). In a way it’s kind of like driving drunk and somebody hits you. Well, maybe.

Sign me “Sad for those involved, but grateful for the information”

Links to the Novato Cedar Incident Report and the CDF Cedar Incident Report are on the Documents Worth Reading list on the Archives page and on the Site Map.

A Guide to the California Public Records Act
www.thefirstamendment.org/capra.html

NK

If you can't get it up the chain of command, file a SAFENET.

Strider

FC: an experienced and trained company officer and fire station manager. Well-qualified to train, mentor & and supervise groups of subordinates. Directs and oversees the emergency and non-emergency activities and duties of a fire company.

My-gawd. Why hasn't the cowboy FC on the Cedar Fire been terminated by CDF or at least stood down? Where's the discipline??? He was out of line running around doing what he was doing outside of the chain of command and it sounds like he doesn't have a clue. CDF must think his behavior is OK if they've done nothing. Are they afraid of having to bear some responsibility for Steve Rucker's death if they discipline him?

As an exercise, take the death out of the story, the FCs behavior is unacceptable.

SoCal County Firefighter

TP

NM Firefighter

AL

CDF Cedar Incident Report, 05 (2749K pdf file)

Many firefighting agencies use what happened on the Lauder fire to illustrate important points in fire shelter
use and re-emphasize the benefits of wearing PPE. A review of Lauder is often included on annual refreshers.
If you look, you can find a MTDC study of the fire shelters used on that fire. The LA City Fire Department
has a section on the Lauder fire in its Brush Fire Operations Manual. Maybe you can ask someone to let
you look at that. Thanks to John for the bullet points.

Dennis Cullen's death and the injury to the other firefighters were some of our sad losses and injuries of the
'87 fire siege.

NorCalTom

• Loss of Life: One firefighter died in the deployment area.
• Injuries: Several burned in the deployment area.
• Situation:
  • Early morning start in the middle of the 1987 “siege”.
  • Two copters and fly crews dispatched with ground resources and fixed wing
    ordered.
  • The fire was situated in a basically E-W drainage.
  • The fire was making narrow strip runs from the valley floor to the
    ridgeline at @0700.
  • Fuel was old brushy logging re-growth with considerable heavy dead and
    down component.
• Events:
  • Ground crews were flanking the fire with hose lays and hand lines.
  • The first fly crew got out on the ridgeline and was holding the ridge.
  • The second fly crew chose not to commit to the ridgeline and committed to
    the right flank supporting a direct hose lay attack. They were ahead of
    the hose lay punching a hole through the brush.
  • About 1000 hours the fly crew on the ridgeline asked if the lower fly
    crew could bump up to their location to provide support to the holding
    action. Airtankers were working the fire by this time.
  • The lower fly crew decided to advance ahead of the direct attack hose lay
    thinking they were over half way to the ridgeline.
• What happened:
  • The fly crew trying to hike up hill through the brush found
    very tough travel in the heavy growth and down material. They were only
    about one-third of the way to the ridgeline.

A normal weather cycle that was not anticipated or identified caught the
crew. Since sun-up the fire aspect was in solar heating evidenced by the
perpendicular narrow strip runs on the S-SW slope. As the morning
progressed, the drainage started to develop normal up drainage air movement.
The right flank (E) was beginning to vector to the east with the air
movement. When the fly crew started up the hill they took a perpendicular
path looking for the shortest distance to the ridgeline. The fire made a
run with an up canyon vector that outflanked the fly crew putting them in a
head too wide and intense for them to relocate and escape based on their
inability to move rapidly.

This is a bare bones account. As with all fatality and near miss situations
there are always a myriad of contributing factors having causal or
contributing affects. This was not the “mother of all fires”, it was a very
normal wildland fire. Guards were down for a numbers of reasons.

J.Watt

We appreciate the air tanker support.

www.eastvalleytribune.com

MM

Grounded forest air tanker fleet reactivated

Firefighting aircraft ready for duty in northeast Valley (AZ)

Scottsdale (AZ) lands wildfire tanker

Neptune Aviation Cleared for Takeoff (Missoula MT)

AZ F/F

PS thanx Ab for making my links good

Yer welcome. Be safe. Ab.

KDL

With the upcoming season looming, I would hope that all of our firefighters on this board would remember to use a certain thing that we all have, in our jobs... our brains. You see, we had a "discussion," today a "mandatory, voluntary," one at that. It seems to me that some folks, apparently mostly those in higher level positions have lost touch with reality... and the day to day SOPs of our profession. We are getting bogged down by issues such as "can we go without shirts on P.T. runs... and do we look professional enough?" instead of focusing on issues such as critical, important training, and the necessity of being with our crew EVERY day at least the first two weeks of coming on. I would encourage all, not just those in R-5 but everywhere to focus on the important issues, our safety, our people, and our cohesion... apparently some do not believe these are important attributes to pursue as making sure the Forest Supervisor is "in touch," with their fire folks... Even though they do not even hold a firefighter 2 cert. Sign me...

N.Z. FIRE

GH

www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/swapredictive/swaoutlooks/daily/outlook-daily.htm

R3 FF

I can't ever remember one.

AL

Thanks J. Ab.

[Oh yeah, now you probably won't answer me... My mouth
has gotten me in trouble before...]

My Q:
I can't find that safenet report. I get to the site and click on the ID
option, but search doesn't work for that ID number. Any
suggestions? I have read some interesting reports...

Brandy

(Thanks Ab>)

There's a difference between where I am and your remote area.

It's not about the flow of blood from a fellow firefighter that's
hazardous, it's all the other All Risk incidents we respond to.

SoCal EMT-FF

The question about hazard pay for medical emergencies was evidently extensively
discussed in chat last night. (I wasn't there.) Maybe there will be more of that tonight.
(I can't be there, except maybe late...) (Thanks for the email from someone
who was there.)

A second topic last night had to do with training required to be an instructor.

I also heard EMT Scotty popped in from Iraq. Our best to you Scotty. Thanks
for your service, Dude. Be safe.

My question about dispatchers and ICs came up because of an informal break
discussion about outsourcing and whether dispatching as a fire function is
essentially governmental or not. In my estimation, it is. Dispatchers have some
very heavy responsibilities, especially during IA. I can remember having a heavy
discussion with an A-76 specialist couple years ago and trying to describe what
dispatchers did, why it took fire knowledge and how there could be a conflict
of interest if the function was contracted out.

Mellie

Federal Agencies' Aerial Resources Are Ready for 2005 Fire Season (press release)
Preliminary results of a study on P2V airtankers show that they can be used in the upcoming fire season.

SAFENET link is on the Links page under safety. Ab.

I have just heard that anyone being paid Hazard Pay for an emergency medical firefighter response is an urban legend. It doesn't happen, even in socal.

Regarding my question about dispatchers being de facto ICs on IA. That is the policy for CDF, but not for the Forest Service. The FS duty officer has the responsibility of IC until someone gets on site. The dispatchers check with the duty officer. Even so, the dispatcher function of ordering resources is essentially governmental.

Mellie

TP,

That would be
Led Zeppelin,
Dazed and Confused,
The Song Remains the Same-Soundtrack, for the Peak Fire clip.

Music Man

I wanted to drop a quick note to your bulletin board to let you know I
appreciate all of the support and concern that was shown here for my
daughter Gina. I just recently learned of this site and would have posted
sooner would I have known. Gina was a real bright spot in my life and the
lives of others and God knows she is going to be missed intensely. She also
lived for the summer fire crew experience and after 4 years of working on
engine crews and going out on Type II pick-up crews for off-Forest
assignments, she had landed her dream job with the Union IHC. I truly
thank Dan Fiorito for giving her the chance to rookie with him. I so wish
she were there right now doing the runs and push-ups to make the cut. She
had trained very hard for the past couple months and had showed me her
progress charts almost every day. I can proudly say she was a real hard
body and know she would have made the cut. Anyway, I saw a request for a
photo to post and am sending a couple that were taken last year while she was
working on the Ochoco NF engine 3169 crew. Thank you again, fire community,
for the support you have shown and have a safe summer.

Dave Zalunardo

Gina with Saw & Gina's Smile
She is missed. Our best wishes to your family. Ab.

"In order to avoid scratching the paint on Engine 6162, the driveway at 920 Orchard Lane needed to be brushed in order to back the engine up the driveway."

Thanks to CDF for publishing the good, bad, and ugly of this report.

vfd cap'n

Today at the Six Rivers All Fire Meeting, Spanky and our Gang (of Engine Captains) wanted to know if anyone knew a reference or policy that states that firefighters responding to medical emergencies should get hazard pay. Anyone got that ref? Our guys aren't getting paid that. I'm sure one of you socal folks have the answer... Blood on hands. Sounds like a hazard to me!

Okey dokey artichoke.
How about, where is it written that dispatchers are the ICs until the first firefighter arrives on the scene? Somebody said it might be in the old Fireman's Handbook. (Am I old enough to have that RobMac? Does it go by another name?)
Thanks to our dispatchers. We couldn't do it without ya! (We were told that ICs should remember to keep their dispatchers up to speed. They can help immeasurably if you have a plan and they're clear on your commander's intent.)

I think there were other questions or comments, but need a bit to think of them...

Oh, and excellent job! Some Six Rivers NF Firefighter of the Year Awards - We're proud of you!
Jay Dillon our dozer guy from Mad River RD
Mike Gibbons from Ukonom RD
Jesse Knox from Lower Trinity RD
Paul Zurr from Smith River NRA

Oh yeah, thanks to Mad River Crew 4 for signing up for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation 52 Club. Awesome! I'll have to go see if any other crews are on the 52 Gold list.

Mellie

I just wanted to share this wonderful idea, if any others want to send flowers.

Call the Boise Best ( Flower Shop) at 208-342-4885
You can have Boise Best send them here to the Foundation at
2049 Airport Way,
Boise ID83705
and we will take them over and place them at the person's marker.

Vicki Minor

SS

Here's the report that was posted on the Novato FD server. Novato FD Cedar Report (5895K, 90 pages, very large). All of us linking to it last year may have overloaded their system. Ab.

I also posted it here in case the CDF server gets overloaded or the report is removed. CDF Cedar Incident Report, 05. Ab.

I feel that if they do rename them they should be named "McClellan IHC"

X-Hotshot

Ab.

Fighting the Biggest Fire in CA History
Notes from the Cedar Fire
by Colin Wilson

I would like to see the Cedar Fire Incident report.

SoCal CDF

Wildland Firefighter Foundation, thanks for giving a wildland firefighter
statue to Steve Rucker's parents. You do so much to heal the hurt.

Resident

Resident, you did that just right. Here's another picture from last year. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation rep presenting the bronze statue to members of the Novato Fire Department Station. Ab.

Original Ab.

www.marinij.com

Someone has to get blamned...

MG

Is the report online anywhere? The CDF spokesman apparently says no comment, the report stands on its own. That may be well and good as a response to the Public, but are trainers folding this incident into "Lessons Learned" for firefighters? On interface fires, we need those lessons learned. Ab.

noname

This law, which modifies existing law, requires persons subject to fire hazards (described in the statute) to remove all brush, flammable vegetation, or combustible growth that is located within 100 feet from the occupied dwelling or occupied structure, or building or structure, as applicable, or to the property line, or at a greater distance if required by state law, or local ordinance, rule, or regulation.

The law authorizes the Director of Forestry and Fire Protection to authorize the removal of vegetation not consistent with these and related requirements. The law also authorizes the Director to place a lien on the building, structure, or grounds for the expense of the removal of that vegetation, as specified.

Additionally, the law requires a special certification upon new construction or rebuilding of an occupied dwelling or occupied structure damaged by fire in a very high fire hazard severity zone to be presented to the insurer providing the construction insurance coverage.

Lobotomy

AL

Rucker's death led to new precautions
Steve Rucker died in the 2003 firestorm in SoCal, the Cedar Fire.

"At the same time, we were just told that most likely we will not do any fire fighting at all if there is a fire in our area of responsibility, that we would be there too back up our "real" firefighting crew and most likely be providing scene security."

Who are the real firefighting crews you would be backing up or providing security to? Does your municipal water department have firefighting crews? If so does the water department have an Incident Qualification System and are they signers to any agreements with a wildland agency? You used the word "our" firefighting crew so I'm a little confused about the water departments role in wildland fire suppression. If this is the Bull Run watershed the only agencies that have wildland fire suppression responsibilities are ODF, USFS and the local fire department provides protection to improvements within the watershed.

Oliver

HCA

Please ask ab to forward on the email/give you my
address. (Thanks ab!)

My first choice would be Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd.
Second choice would be Metallica... Fuel for Fire.

Oliver

Readers, please note that we have a new sponsor for theysaid - The Supply Cache. Jim Felix was our earliest and has been our website's staunchest supporter throughout the years. Since we began offering classified ads and banners to help cover costs at theysaid, he's been there with his business. His banner has been on the Links page since "Day One" of banner sponsorships. He's also on the Board at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. I know he believes in the wildland firefighter community, professionalism, networking, connectivity. He walks the walk. Jim, the firefighter and businessman, is a class act, folks. Jim, we appreciate you. Thanks for all you do. The Abs.

I have worked in law enforcement, and have alot of training in allied public safety disciplines, including Hazmat and medical first responder, but I've never had a single class in firefighting of any type, and never really had an interested in it - until now. Now, after doing some reading and spending a good part of the day on your website, I am very intrigued with the thought of Wildland Firefighting.

At the same time, we were just told that most likely we will not do any fire fighting at all if there is a fire in our area of responsibility, that we would be there too back up our "real" firefighting crew and most likely be providing scene security.

While I understand that that function needs to be carried out, and that we are the logical people to do it, I still want to fight the fire! I've never in my life been interested in this line of work, and I know very little about it other than what I've read on this website today.

Here is my problem - I make decent money and have good benefits with the city. I looked at the Forest Service fire jobs and saw that even the "permanent" positions were all seasonal...... and I have a family. The city fire department doesn't get involved with wildland firefighting hardly at all, so that is not a good option.

So....if I want to pursue this further than what little I'll be doing for the city, I'll most likely have to go elsewhere.....I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions they might be willing to share with me.

I have a TON of allied training, but none is in firefighting. I've been through the entire ICS series and am close to completing a degree in Emergency Management. My interest is more being involved in operations and NOT in management.....

Any suggestions or advice anyone could offer I would greatly appreciate.

Dwight911

TP, if we could find one or more bands willing to do a legal "cover" of some songs to go with video fire clips, which songs would we want? How long should they be? Ab.

Glad you've seen the light. Who among us hasn't made a mistake from time to time. Most of us have just been lucky enough not to pay the ultimate price. I appreciate it that you share your self-chastisement. There is nothing like putting a human face on tragedy to change perceptions. Ab.

Here's how we anticipate the day will go... Our day will begin with registration at 10:30 am - coffee and greetings. At 11:00 the Honor Guard will open with a flag presentation. What is so wonderful is that these families will have some time to spend with the Honor Guard who answered the call to service when they lost their firefighter.

Dr. Bonnie Vestal will make a presentation. We will have a powerpoint in which the fallen firefighters' pictures will be shown one-by-one. The families will rise and be recognized when their loved one's picture is shown, so the other families attending can see who each person belongs to, who they lost, and whose life they celebrate. There will be a simple candle lighting ceremony. We'll have pictures of each family's firefighter engraved on metal dog tags for them to take home. Some volunteers are coming to help the kids make t-shirts with their loved one's picture on it and printmakers will assist them in designing what they'd like to create.

We're having a barbeque. Some of the dads are doing the cooking. We'll have buckets of flowers for the families. At 1:00 we'll go to the monument at NIFC where the Honor Guard and volunteers from NIFC will orient, tour with and share with the  families. White doves will be released at the waterfall. The Boise Smokejumpers will be taking families on a tour of the smokejumper base. We want to thank the NIFC directors who have been so supportive of the family day arrangements.

We're having an evening campfire for the families who want to stay, eat up the leftovers and grow closer with each other. The National Firefighter Foundation is providing Cathy Henderson to us. She lost her son who was a structure firefighter and she attended the first family event in Emmetsburg. Now she is working for the National Firefighters Foundation. We so appreciate her help.

It has been very humbling to interact with these families. Our commitment is to providing a place for reverence, honor and dignity for our families of fallen wildland firefighters, a place where they can get to know each other and network with each other, and a place where they can truly know that they belong to and will always be a part of our wildland fire community.

I would hope that any of you who read this who have not yet joined the 52 CLUB will join. For $1.00 a week, for 52 weeks - an annual donation of $52.00 - we can make a difference in firefighters' and their families' lives.

Vicki Minor
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
208-336-2996

Thanks, Vicki for being this community's support net. We don't know what we'd do without you and your wonderful crew. Readers, please join us in sending in your donations or donating by joining the 52 Club. Donations are needed so our safety net, the Foundation, can continue to provide support to our fire families. The Abs.

NIFC managers' move (to DC) put on hold

Mill Valley CA prepares for the worst
good drill to have, brings home the fire-prone reality of the interface

Redding IHC

I hate to admit it, but the first two names that came to my mind for the Redding IHC in
Sacto were Valley Girls or Arnold's Angels. OK, OK, it's a different valley so perhaps
"Great Valley IHC" would work. I like the sound of Lions Gate, but I don't know the
reference.

Still Out There As An AD

Lions Gate Hotel is the name of the hotel on the former McClellan air base, now business park. There's also a fairly obscure Lion's Gate Inn at the former Mather air base. I imagine both those places rocked and rolled - roared - to the sound of airplane engines/jets in their time. For more info google it. Ab.

Readers update your bookmarks!

It's just plain old www.wffoundation.org/.

Ab.

Thanks, Pattie

We've gotten several inquiries like yours, Pattie. The Foundation website is being recreated. My guess is that it's being transferred, but the server may just be down. I'm sure we'll get an update soon. Ab.

Peak (.wmv file, requires windows media player)

TP

Nice one! Also sounds like a worthy project to benefit our great firefighter support organization. Musicians anyone?Ab.

The Bug, Dire Straits, killer guitar and beat. Actually anything instrumental
with a strong rocking guitar sound would also be way cool.

I Can't Get No Satisfaction, The Doors?

All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix?

Griz

Also concerns in Reno area.
Wet winter in northern Nevada has fire officials worried

Yocom

Hot List showed a start in AZ with use of ATs. There have been starts in SoCal...

SoCal CDF

Somebody got a music clip for that? Ab.

Strider

FEMA Announces Two New Web-Based Incident Command System (ICS) Courses

TC (another one)

Redding HS in Sacramento
Arnie's Shots
Central Valley IHC

others?

Todd

AV

Nope, TP said no catchy music. Want to suggest some? We could have a contest. Ab.

Thanks for the info, Jim. The topic came up in chat some nights ago and a number of us were wondering what's up, is that legal? No better place to ask than here. Glad to hear Western Heritage does it right. Ab.

Its good to see that some things stay the same in this day and age of everyone
trying to figure out what people think, thought and might think and why they did
this and that and why humans act like humans and, and and and........

The legacy of AG and old boy was and is and will always be NO BS!

Thanks,
Skip

Ya always wonder if selling the NPS shield as a lapel pin, for example, is legal. Ab.

Just a little clip of our Type 1 helicopter rappel program for the community.
I'm working on getting the quality better while keeping the file small. Sorry,
no catchy music.

AG Rappel (.wmv file, requires windows media player)

TP

Thanks for trying again, TP. You sent the good firefighter clip long ago. Our computer crashed and we lost it. Hanging on to this one. Should we take suggestions for music??? Ab.

Accidents aren't random events, they're a result of large and small human systems. The thrust of his discussion (pp 8, 9) relates to Human Factors, with a focus on how humans notice new information, evaluate it, integrate it and make choices to avoid accidents... and what human systems exist that constrain or direct such processes in the high-risk fire environment.

• The human body, including the way it responds to stress, affects how people "sample" and notice changes in the "real environment out there" including changing fire behavior that is becoming more dangerous.
• The human brain likes consistency and without it we feel uncomfortable. The more we can transition from feeling like "it can't happen to me" to "it can happen to me and I'd better be aware of that NOW", the more likely we are to survive the dangerous moments when we might find ourselves in cognitive dissonance or confusion over what's real, given what we've always believed. I want to clarify that Cognitive Dissonance can arise when we feel a difference between
  • what we believe (think we know, value, set as a goal) and
  • what bit of new info we perceive in a changing moment, hear from a crew member, from a DIVS, weatherman, local resident about up canyon winds, etc.
  • (Negative emotion, for me has always been a tap on the shoulder to the reasoning me to "pay attention". It cues me that I may have some issue or perception that needs further reflection, rational scrutiny or change in behavior. I try not to dismiss emotion's "wake up" calls.)
  How we resolve that cognitive dissonance when it arises and how quickly we resolve it correctly can be critical to survival in high risk environments. If we settle for the status quo or currently held or "we're ok" reality, when the fire environment is changing, we risk death. Bottom line, it's beneficial to realistically update your perceptions of reality and start acting to save yourself soon enough when your life depends on it.
• Expect the unexpected, the less likely outcome, anticipate the undesirable, don't look for confirmation, but for the thing that might surprise and kill you.
• Build your experience base with a focus on human factors and how you respond emotionally and rationally. Watching where your mind goes in mindfulness training, among other things, can let you know where your emotional triggers could be so as to minimize their effects when emotions want to hijack your body.
• Use your joint emotion and rational human thinking systems optimally.
• Use your emotion - aka hot cognition or automatic, largely unconscious thinking process - as the wake up call. When under stress, it kicks in first anyway and can inform reason if you don't let it take you hostage.
• Then as quickly as possible, bring to the survival process your rational conscious thinking process - aka cold cognition or rational, conscious thinking process that makes us human.

Train yourself to look at what might happen to LCES as fire behavior changes when the day, the sun, the wind, the slope, the fuels, the alignment of forces march on. I add, let's avoid putting ourselves in "predictable harm's way" with respect to fire behavior by learning what Doug Campbell teaches.

• Match fire type to tactic. Mark direction of the wind on your map. Note where you are on the flammability curve.
• Time tag your task. Set trigger points for change. Determine tracks. Draw them on your map.

(You can find one of Doug's powerpoints that integrates Fire Signature Prediction with LCES on the Documents Worth Reading page or go to Doug's website.)

Beyond that, we need to be ready to keep the reasoning brain as aware as possible when the sh*t's hitting the fan and the emotions, the tunnel vision, the loss of attention to detail occurs because WE'RE HUMAN. We need to know what humans do and train ourselves to expect the emotion, to tap into our reason and to use the two in concert to survive.

Mellie

72 hr REPORT

SAL

Thanks to others who sent this in. Ab.

NorCal Tom

It's interesting to get snapshots of the development of the Cramer concerns and issues via the Docs Worth Reading Page. Some fine presentations there. Ab.

My heart and prayers go out to the family and friends of Gina.

Sarah Larson

Readers, before ordering, read the reviews to see if the approach is likely to work for you.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom, Sarah. It was good to meet you in Boise at the WFF Memorial statue dedication. Ab.

Ab

I saw a 24- hour prelim report posted on "they said" on the 12th. Have there
been any further postings? Looking for the 72- hour report.

Thanks
Tasha

Maybe the Powers That Be see that centralizing fire from the different federal fire
agencies into a central Federal Fire Department is inevitable???

The Redding shots moving to Sacramento?? If I step back from that one it makes sense.
It's a leadership training program.

Strider

Here's an informative link: www.afsp.org/education/recommendations/2/index.html

I think the main thing to remember is that you can't expect people contemplating suicide to just "change their mind". What you see as "not that big a deal" can seem huge and insurmountable to someone who is, for example, clinically depressed. What leads to suicide has biological roots in brain and body chemistry. If you can't provide help and you think there might be a problem, you need to find someone who can. As Chris said, however, often people give friends and family no cues that can be recognized ahead of time. That makes it really tough.

My prayers for friends and family.

Mellie

• Talking about death,
• high and low moods that change quickly and
• a self destructive attitude.

There are many more signs that can be found on suicide web sites and also at
suicide hot lines.

My deepest sympathy goes out to Gina's family and friends.

My heart aches for you all.

Cris

It is true. They do have two weeks to come up with options before they have to move to McClellan. This move came down from the Region, one person to be specific. Many reasons were cited, one of the barracks on compound being closed and help needed at McClellan to run the training center as a few.

NOPSer

I am so sorry Gina died. I am shocked and saddened to hear that suicide was
the cause of Gina's death. My prayers for her family and friends.

Are there any kinds of Lessons Learned from suicide? I know there have been
some in the past in the fire world besides Kate. Does anyone know warning
signs?

Thanks for the links. I feel I need to educate myself...

Tahoe Terrie

Bend Bulletin article. Our hearts go out to Gina's family and friends.

One of our early theysaiders, FireGirl, created one of the early fire sites on the world wide web -- in part to honor her hotshot friend - Kate Louise Ranisate - who committed suicide in 1998. We still link to FireGirl's World on our links page under Miscellaneous. Here are several resource links with reference to understanding suicide that she provides on her site.
"Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.”
American Foundation for Suicide Prevention

Thank you for taking the time to take note and post about Kelly Close's paper from the IAWF conference. The paper is an excellent read - the presentation was even better. All of us here need to take this message to the field this season and make sure the ripples started by Kelly in Missoula reach as far as the WO. I suspect the WO is still hoping this thing will go away. NONE of us can afford that. Be safe.

Uncle Stick

The news article that used that quote from Gina's mother was poorly written. The purple and magenta part referred to the colors of paint Gina used to paint the quote on her bedroom wall.

DD

DD thanks for the clarification. I realize the colors referred to her room, but took the quote as a metaphor for what I think is her underlying message - which I interpreted as "Dance yourself, be yourself, express yourself, whatever the color." It's a powerful message! I've clarified it on the quotes page. Ab.

”The future is not a result of choices among alternative paths offered by the present, but a place that is created--created first in the mind and will, created next in activity. The future is not some place we are going to, but one we are creating. The paths are not to be found, but made, and the activity of making them, changes both the maker and the destination.”

Lobotomy

JohnE

Flying Machines (.wmv file, requires windows media player)

It takes place on the Solstice Complex 2004.

Enjoy
Dave Zader

It's streaming video takes 2.5 min, is 2,705 K. I want to see if it pulls too much bandwidth or slows down the site.
The Solstice Complex was a complex of fires around Fort Yukon, Alaska beginning end of June 2004. Last report someone sent in for the end of July showed ~550,000 acres burned.
Pretty cool. Gets the blood up for the season, fer sure. Ab.

For one, what's better? No test at all, so that we risk putting people to work with no knowledge regarding their fitness base? The step test? It was no better on the knees etc., and I always thought the charts used for the final score looked like something out of the New Farmer's Almanac. A test run is even harder on the joints. What else is there, a NASA-style stress test, complete with blood samples to test blood oxygen and re-uptake levels like the East Germans used to use on their athletes? I don't mean to make light of the matter, because there have been some awful consequences to the current testing method, but I think we could engage in constructive criticism to make the system better, without blowing a nuclear hole in the budget.

Still Out There as an AD

I got a call from my cousin in New York City who couldn't wait to tell me about the Redding SJs who are climbing to the tops of trees in Central Park in search of trees infected with the Asian Longhorn Beetle. The beetles came into NY thru the docks and the city has been working for 5 years to keep them contained. It lives in the very tops of trees so those searching for it have to be very good climbers. SJs are. When they find an infested tree they fell it, buck it up and burn it. Good show she says and they've created quite a flurry.

She was impressed. Good wildland firefighter Public Relations in that job. Another example of All Risk!

Mellie

Island Lake fire with Jandt's team 5% contained, size not reported has 2 type 2 helos, no ATs
Tracy Ave fire near Homer now 95% contained at 5400 acres had 1 Type 2 helo, no ATs

Griz

Here's one site I use for smoke information for the public.
www.dec.state.ak.us/air/smoke_qa.htm

and on particulates...
www.dec.state.ak.us/air/am/smoke.htm

Sun is another hazard for F/F.

Can anyone put up links to bonafide research on cancer in F/Fs? I do not smoke or
chew.  I have had precancerous moles removed. Get checked every year. My doc said
firefighters have higher rates of cancer - melanoma for sure but also other kinds of
cancer. Any stats?

Griz

From what I've heard cancer risks are much higher for wildland firefighters than
for the general public. Smoke is also linked to heart disease and lung disease.
Some few argue that maybe firefighters have risky habits other than inhaling smoke
from wildland fires that put them at greater risk for disease. Seems to me the
general public does much of that same risky stuff too.

Here's a website with many articles and white papers on smoke effects:

http://depts.washington.edu/wildfire/index.html

Here's a link for a listing of articles on the effects of smoke and how you
can get info out to the public.

http://depts.washington.edu/wildfire/articles.html

Getting info out to firefighters who are young and sometimes feel invulnerable
is another matter.

JKG

Another description of the study on the pack test
DHS Funds Biometric Study of Wildland Firefighters During Pack Tests

and on air tankers
Large Air Tankers Will Keep Flying, For Now

I added that quote to the Quotes to Live By  page. The TV evening news on had a school picture of Cindy and a description of events and the investigation. If anyone has an informal photo of her please send it in and we'll post it. Ab.

Honolulu Advertiser

Nature Conservancy Firefighter

Welcome to theysaid. Ab.

Dave and Cindy Zalunardo remembered their daughter as an adventurous woman and a gifted
artist. Her mother said Gina painted a quote above her bedroom door, and refused to let them
cover it with white paint when they converted it into a guest room.

"It says ‘Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, dance like
nobody's watchin' in bright purple and magenta," said Cindy Zalunardo. "I don't know who said
it, but that was her."

DM

DHS Funds Firefighter Safety Study
"The pack test simulates the conditions experienced by firefighters during
an actual wildland fire."

Todd

Note that a number of the BLM sites are still offline.

Ab.

Any recommendations for CDF approved (detachable) webgear thats not GSA?

SoCal CDF

SoCal Vollie

Readers, if you knew Gina or even if you didn't, please send condolences to the Zalunardos. Parents say that such communications mean a great deal to them. Prayers help too. Ab.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Hi all,

Jerry Bishop has continued to do well and gain strength over the past
month. He went in for a scan on 4/28 and was able to meet with his Doctor
yesterday (5/10) to review the results and discuss further treatment. The
news is that the scan showed some decrease in the size of the tumor area
but also showed that one of the pressure relieving shunts may have shifted
out of position and might require another surgical procedure to correct.
Further study of the test results and consultation among the Drs. is
necessary before a final decision on this. In the meantime, Jerry will be
taking an oral chemotherapy medication for five days, followed by three
weeks off, probably for the next few months.

The Doctor was very happy and impressed with Jerry's rehabilitation
progress (talking, walking, motor skills, etc.) and has approved him to
start going to a physical therapy center in Oakhurst for more intense PTs.
He also said that, if Jerry continues to progress at his current pace, he
may be able to return to desk type work in about 6 months. Currently,
Jerry is able to stand himself up and walk up to 30' or more at a time with
the aid of a walker. His appetite, along with his chewing and swallowing
skills are excellent and it appears he is beginning to gain back some
weight - a really good thing since Jerry has lost close to 70 pounds since
January. The family has also been able to get Jerry outside more and even
venture out briefly for some fun, social activities, rather than just
medical appointments - hopefully we will see them at some of our upcoming
events soon.

Thanks to all for your continued prayers and support.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Thanks for the good news. Ab.

Our condolences as well. Ab.

24 hr REPORT

SAL

I just got word that both the Locality Pay and the Special Salary Tables remain the same except for some no-impact changes in text. TLet me reiterate... there are no financial impacts on socal special salary or locality pay. Some R5 HR person made a big booboo and sent around an email that caused confusion. I'm glad to report we're good.

NorCal Tom

I did a bit of checking. That Rx fire escaped on May 5 and was contained on May 8 (in lowland grass and timber, 22 mi w of Grand Rapids on state, fed, tribal lands) at 475 acres. I was told that during IA a wind caused a flare-up in flashy fuels and it that burned a firefighter's face and hands. The firefighter returned to work the next day. Ab.

boot lacing photo

FFEric

Mike-
I think this is what you are talking about. Lace your boots up to the top, but leave the top eyelet/hole open. Double over the ends and stick the end of the loop through the hole. Then take the end of the lace and pull them through the loop, and pull the loop tight. You then can tie the boot.

Hope this helps,

Crew Leader P.W.

I had no "Misperceptions" about that van accident, just facts stated by local law enforcement, coroner and prosecuting attorney involved in the incident. Initially the county coroner stated that alcohol levels were above the legal limit but those findings were called into question by the companys attorney due to the conditions of the bodies as a result of the subsequent fire. You're right before any firm blame could be placed more detailed information would be needed. I was just making a point about leadership. When our crews deploy, either to incidents or even to training, we have a detailed safety briefing. Route, Road Speed, Driving Standards, Safety Concerns, Emergencies etc. to and back from our destination...and definitely NO Alcohol. No Ab I wasn't conducting an AAR about the accident just sharing some thoughts about leadership that I think contributed to the accident.

I knew Jeff and Shane and it still bothers me what happened to them, I was in the Salmon/Challis area when we lost them and I think leadership failed them plain and simple. I see a lot of chatter here about what has went wrong, what needs to happen, what needs changing, who's to blame for the present working conditions, staffing, funding, training, who should run the whole circus... I guess its a good place to vent ones frustrations lol. I was in boise last week for the firefighter statue unveiling and was impressed, I thought there would be more people present but it was good. Ab maybe someday we can sit down with a beer and discuss what the hell is going on lol.

R4 Helitack Guy

Incomplete perceptions, then... Relying on "live" person blood alcohol limits has been called into account in airtanker crashes and in other legal cases where people died in flaming and non-flaming crashes. Just because someone is "law enforcement" or otherwise involved in law doesn't mean they have any facts. Status doesn't automatically confer knowledge. However, there are a number of coroners with scientific specialty in the field, especially one in Texas, who can give you an earful on the lack of validity of supposed alcohol level "facts" that defame people who can no longer offer testimony or samples on their own behalf.

That said, I agree with you about not purchasing and consuming alcohol before you arrive back at your home base.

We'll look for you next trip to Boise. If we tip a few we might make you the designated driver. Ab.

Read it! Excellent paper!

Mellie

Helimopping: Is There a Better Way to Do It?

by William D. Moody (His professional credentials can be found at the end.)

With growing concern over the inappropriate use of helicopters in fire tactical operations, the USDA Forest Service (Fire and Aviation Management) and the National Aviation and Ground Safety committee published a joint paper in Risk Management in Action (Issue 1: March 2001). The paper, "Heli-mopping: A Dirty Word" defined heli-mopping as "use of a helicopter for water or retardant application beyond an initial attack in recently burned areas where there is minimal danger of the fire escaping." The paper cited examples of inappropriate uses, factors that motivate heli-mopping, and outlined legitimate reasons for use of helicopter applications inside the black.

As long time and current Air Attack Group Supervisor Ward Monroe states, "Today heli-mopping appears to be an accepted practice and does not have the stigma that it had years ago". Perhaps it is now time to reassess our tactical use of helicopters (aerial applications) and to determine whether or not "the dirty word" is still a part of normal fire operations.

As a current Air Tactical Group Supervisor (ATGS) I would like to share with you some of my observations with regard to helicopter aerial application operations. Rightly used, the helicopter can be a tremendous tactical tool to assist in containing the fire. However, when the tool is inappropriately used, such as when there is minimal danger of fire escape, and when ground alternatives are readily available, the result is unnecessary exposure of flight crews to a high risk low level flight environment, significantly higher suppression costs, and in many cases, less effective mop up. In some situations, helicopter aerial applications inside the black are justified and perhaps the only practical and safe means for mop-up, preventing fire escape, or spotting from torching near the line.

In the following pages I will discuss my observations, their consequences, and potential alternatives. Before concluding , I will provide recommendations on how I think the "heli-mopping issue can at least be partially resolved and how helicopter aerial application operations can be made safer and more efficient.

Observations

1. There has been a significant increase in the use of helicopter aerial applications to directly support containment and mop-up objectives when alternative means or methods could be employed to accomplish the objectives. In other words - there's a lot of heli-mopping going on! The greatest increase has been since 2001.Perhaps this is, in part, a response to past fatality fires and changes in how we fight fire today.
2. A significant percentage of the tactical use flight time, and cost, can be attributed to heli-mopping - often with Type 1 helicopters.
3. A majority of the crews / individuals utilizing heli-drops are deficient in effectively communicating target locations, identifying targets and directing drops. Most do not have signal mirrors or ground panels to pinpoint target locations. As a result, mission coordination is often confusing, time consuming and more costly than it should be.
4. Some crews are not acquainted with, or trained in the use of alternative mop-up techniques and equipment. i.e. gravity sock systems, use of pyramid tanks / baby hose and other collapsible tanks - some delivered by helicopter.
5. Many aerial drops "violate" the principles of good risk management and the "Twelve Standard Aviation Watch Out Questions." Most frequently violated are:
   • #1 Is this flight necessary? Often not - alternative methods could be planned and used. i.e. backpack pump, fold-a-tanks, pyramid tanks and collapsible freestanding tanks with baby hose, gravity sock/hose systems - and good ole dry mop.
   • #5 Is there a better way to do it? Often times, yes. See #1 above.
   • #7 Can you justify your action? Often times the answer is no- not when safer, more effective and less costly means are available.
6. Assessment of the potential for fire escape has not been done, or if it has, and there is minimal potential for escape, the drop has been ordered anyway.
7. Some Operations personnel plan heli-mopping in their daily action plan as a standard operating procedure.

Although Fire Managers Incident IC / Operation and ATGSs have tried to address the "heli-mopping issue" it continues to be widespread, even by many hot shot crews and other highly trained firefighters. Unfortunately, some Operation Section Chiefs and Division Group Supervisors, when the practice is brought to their attention, fail to do anything about it.

The Consequences

1. Increased exposure (to accidents) of pilots flying in the high risk low level "dead man's curve" environment.
2. Significant increase in costs to accomplish the objective.
3. Overall significant increase in aviation resource costs.
4. Increased risk to ground personnel who direct the drop and fail to clear the drop zone.
5. Unnecessary and poor use of pilot duty / flight time.
6. To read the rest click HERE

Good Luck and Thanks.

-Ukonom Handcrew

One day in my teen age years before I started fighting fires I was listening to a folk song titled "On Top of Old Smokey". My Mom came in to the room and wiped a tear from her eye. She said "Your Dad was whistling that song when he finally came in from those big fires of 1951 (No 14-day policy back then). I heard him for the longest time before he made the corral."

Dad was Fire Control Officer (FCO) on the Covelo District of the Mendocino National Forest. He was leading his stock string back to the barn at the old Ranger Station on the bluff overlooking the confluence on the forks of the Eel River. The date was September 17 and the rains had started, the crews were coming in, at last. It was his birthday that day.

Les and Arlie Mae Clark just celebrated their 55th anniversary and Dad told that story at the party. I was born on May 14, 1952. Happy Anniversary Mom & Dad; Two of the finest parents any fireman can have.

L. Dean Clark

I agree that LEADERSHIP needs to be practiced every moment. In the second case I want to clarify, however, that alcohol did not play a part in those deaths. It's too bad alcohol was bought when it was during ONE stop, but alcohol is not what caused the accident. The alcohol found in their systems was shown to be no more than that resulting from normal decomposition processes. The driver of the van had passed a vehicle and was trying to get back over to his side. People make errors in judgment while driving every day. That's likely what happened in this case and the result was tragic. I doubt the accident had anything to do with failure of leadership. Undoubtedly it had everything to do with being human. We would need lots more information to ascribe blame, information we will never have. And AARs are about what, not who, if I remember correctly. Thanks for the opportunity to correct your misperceptions. I hope you'll write in again. Ab.

Thanks everyone! I'll have time to practice up.

I haven't seen the video of the foresters fiddling.

Brandy (Ab, you can send this on to Capo. Thx.)

Ab, you can give her my email I have an old cd. There is a newer version in which
he corrected the Mann Gulch location to western MT (rather than central) and made
one other little wording change, but my extra cd is good and great to sing along with.

Capo

From Amazon it's on the James Keelaghan CD "Then Again".

Also, the sheet music, lyrics, and history behind the song can be purchased at:
www.festival.bc.ca/index.php?target=/top30/keelaghan.html

Lobotomy

I am scheduled to provide handheld radio training at the San Diego County
Wildland Fire exercise in two weeks and though I've provided this training
in the past I'm trying to update my information and provide a more
comprehensive training program. So, I'm looking around for any and all
training material for the Bendix-King handheld radios that you or others
may have.

Of course when I'm finished the presentation will be available to anyone
who is interested.

Thank you,

John N. Hudson III, Assistant Chief
OES Telecommunications, Southern Region.
858-268-5436 Office.

Brandy

I've been reading your posts about mothers and I thought I would write.

I would like to express a lot of gratitude to a very special woman who I'm very lucky to have as my mother. I think a lot of you know who she is and the type of woman she is, so I wont go into a whole lot of detail, but I wanted to tell her what a GREAT MOTHER she has been, not only to me but to all of my friends and yours.

If  someone needed a ... walking, talking, swishing, hugging, supporting, charismatic, laughing, crying, teasing, silly, grand-mothering, serious, really listening ... definition of unconditional LOVE - not only loving her own family but loving this whole wildland fire community - the definition would be Vicki Minor.

happy mothers day mom!
with love, your son!

Hear, Hear. Ab.

This is as close of a mom story relating to fire as I can get, but I have always gotten a kick out of this.

I was working on the Bull Bay Fire during the '98 Florida firestorms. One afternoon someone let a newspaper photographer on our division. I was on a Type 6 engine and we were just doing some mop-up. I turned around and there was this huge camera lens stuck in my face and he was asking questions about who I was and where I was from etc. etc. While I was answering his questions we got called to get around to the division break and help out with some flare ups. I never saw him again and didn't get to ask what paper he was with, had I found out I would have bought one the next day. Anyway, about three days later I got the opportunity to call home. I called my wife and she said that she had found out that I was just fine so she hadn't been to concerned about my well being. The day before my mom had called her and told her that she had seen me and I was "upright and well fed". Come to find out the photographer had been associated press and the pictures he had taken went nationwide. My picture had wound up in my hometown paper and my Mom had found it first and started calling everyone. To this day my Mom still has that picture stuck in a scrapbook along with a few others. She still thinks I'm crazy due to my career choice, but always tells everyone how proud she is to be a firefighter's mom.

Bowhntr

Here's a Mom story from another point of view. Matt was on the crew at Cabin lake in Central Oregon in 1995. Our church was having a potluck at Paulina Lake on the Sunday of Labor Day and since it was so close, Matt joined our family and had a great lunch. Then as he headed back to work he asked the rest of us to come see where he had spent the summer...his fire home. It was late afternoon as six of us piled into our old Toyota Land Cruiser and began the ten mile trip through the pumice and red gravel road to Cabin Lake. As we rounded a wide corner we were suddenly faced with a green FS buggy full of determined fire fighters on a mission. Thankfully, we were able to give them the entire road since that was what their speed required. As the dust settled we realized that we wouldn't see Matt at Cabin Lake....he had been the grinning driver of the big green box which had nearly run us off the road. We finally turned around and looked behind us to see the enormous plume of the Paulina Lake fire, but the green rig was long gone.

Sarah Larson

Thank you,
Dan Fiorito

Will do, Dan. Ab.

My favorite mom story happened in 1987. The team I was on was assigned to a fire near my old home town. It was about day 7 into the fire when I stopped at the check-in road block to camp and was handed a package. Looking in the brown paper bag I felt my face flush as the camp slug who handed me the package started laughing... My mother had dropped of three pairs of tighty whities (underwear) and several pairs of socks with a note to be careful... By the time I reached the command parking area and walked to the briefing it became obvious that the camp slug at the road block had shared the purpose of my mother's visit with others.

My second favorite story happened just two months ago. My mom passed away in 2003 and my father wanted me to help him go through her things... I wasn't ready to do that until March of this year. Sitting in my father's living room I opened a box he had handed me. Inside of the box was newspaper articles of fires I had been on since 1972 and several fire line maps I had given her. My mother was hesitant with my career choice and had given constant admonishments to be careful. She never was a mother who got mushy with words and I can't recall her ever telling me she approved of my choice or how proud she was of it. However, going through the box of maps and newspapers I could tell she must have accepted my choice and I would like to think she was proud of her eldest son.

Oliver.

So you're saying that there already seems to be movement toward a single federal Fire Service Agency? Do you think there is a hidden agenda on someone's part? Alternatively, do you think it's a logical progression expressing the changing need for this day and age? Good business? Is it a step in a conscious restructuring plan or one of those organic progressions we will finally come to recognize and formalize?

Does anyone know if there are any federal think-tank groups of fire professionals that are consciously looking at the future structure of fire -- as in looking at the pros and cons of a variety of possible alternative organizations? For example,

• centralizing fire but keeping it within the various agencies vs
• drawing fire from FS/BLM/NPS/FWS/DOD and creating a single fed agency vs
• completely contracting fire out.

I think someone wrote in several weeks ago (when I was off on a training or trip) that we should look at the implications of changing the structure of the fire organization. Discussion has occurred here, I'm just wondering if fire professionals at the higher organizational levels are making similar evaluations. Seems to me we need to have info on the implications of different possible structures, especially if it seems we're already moving on a trajectory.

On another note, I've heard repeatedly and from a variety of testing sources that the new finance software that all agencies are using under FPA has serious and ominous glitches relating to "production" that are likely inherent in the software program itself and may be uncorrectable. From what I understand the software makes it look like all fire problems can be solved with water... <slaps knee while laughing out loud> No brainer, right! And yet we know how hard that resource is to come by in the non-rainy season here in the West! Engines and miles of hose lays that magically show up in remote areas... Implications anyone???

Mellie

My favorite mom story- I was at ICP in fire camp when I called my mom to let her know where I was and how to get ahold of me- She sighed and said, "One daughter off on a fire, the other fighting a war (Afghanistan), and my son is sitting at home programming computers- I don't know where I went wrong." We gave her fire and war t-shirts for Christmas that year :-)

Crew Leader P.W.

Shep

Cottonville Fire, crowning

Steve C.

Nice one. Ab.

What do the initials FSS stand for on some equipment I see?

Retired L.A.V.E.

What a special day last Monday was in Boise for my daughter and me, as we attended the unveiling of the statue at the airport. By making that trip, I was hoping to see some of the places and meet the people who had been so supportive to my son (Matt Taylor) during his illness. I was certainly not disappointed. The statue, the wildland firefighter monument, the National Interagency Fire Center, and even the wall of T-Shirts, gave me a deeper awareness of who my son worked with and why he loved his work. I was honored at last to meet the personalities behind the generous Wildland Firefighter Foundation; Vickie and her staff, Mellie, and numerous others who simply show up when firefighter families are in need. Do you even know what a blessing you are?!

Sarah Larson

Ain't it great to have people who get involved. Anyone can do it: Wildland Firefighter Foundation, donating is easy.
Photos of Boise Airport WFF Monument event. Thanks photo contributors. If anyone has more to share, send 'em in. Ab.

Oliver

Will copy and paste their message to you. Ab.

I thought it might be time for some fun!! It is time to lighten-up a bit. We will all be more than busy enough soon enough!!!!!!!

My best moment with my Mom and is fire related was about 20 years ago when I was assigned to a wildfire between 1-82 and the frontage road that ran next to us south of Kennewick, Washington.

Our engine approached the incident from the frontage road and were assigned the hot flank/head of the fire as the fire was running South at a pretty good clip.

We attached with 1 1/2" hose on steep ground and worked our way up the hill to the freeway about 200 yards above us. We got the fire stopped and then the real hard work GROAN (mop-up) began.

Worked the fire for about a half-hour of so and stopped to take a break at the top and noticed a car with familiar plates (all the traffic was stopped North bound for miles, the flames had been laying over the freeway).

By this time I was nice and dirty from hose work, dirt, soot, and smoke, you know the drill. Walked over and knocked on the window, pretty lady rolled the window down, her nose crinkled up from the smell of the fire and Oh Boy did she get a surprise when I lean in and gave her a big KISS and told her I loved her. HI MOM!! You should have seen the look on her face as she didn't recognize me and then did!!! Worth a $Million, that look.

Ab, I hope you get lots of stuff coming to you on this topic, we as emergency workers have got to lighten-up!!

Zimm

www.thelandman.net/Wild_Fire.htm

Pulaski

Nice photos. Ab.

I want to say thanks to Rich Hawkins and all involved for the really fine tributes to Don and
celebration of his life. I think his memorial service was far-and-away the most impressive
and heart warming Forest Service event I've ever attended, bar none. Nice comments from
all. Kent C pulled off an amazing wonderful 3-minute tribute to Don.

Honor Guard, you do us proud!

Not a dry eye that I could see. We all be missing a good man.

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks Pulaski, very nice. I remember this from 2003. All teams should have stacks of these available for public meetings. The public needs to be invested in keeping their homes fire safe and many people would love to help. I revised this sheet with the Foundation's more recent street address and website info. Ab.

Wildland Firefighter Foundation, thank you for the Fallen Wildland Firefighter statue
for Don's family. I like that it came from all wildland firefighters.

Ray Quintanar, thanks for doing the honors of presenting it. The memorial service for
Don was perfect from beginning to end. It was good to share it in the presence of old
friends.

Here's to a great fireman!

Don was born in Seattle, WA, to Marvin Franklin and Nina Irvin Studebaker. His father was a Lt. Commander in the Navy during WWII and the Korean War. Don had the privilege of living in many places during his lifetime including: Virginia, South Carolina, Illinois, Pennsylvania, California and Japan. Don graduated from Crawford H.S. in 1966 and graduated from San Diego S.U. in 1979 with a Bachelors Degree in Geography.

He served in the Vietnam War from 1969-1971, as an Army Ranger Detachment specializing in Infrared Field Surveillance. During the war he was injured when his helicopter was shot down. He received an award for his service to his country. Upon returning home, he continued his work with the Forest Service until the day he retired on Dec. 31, 2004. In 1977 he met his beloved Ann. They married 1-1/2 years later and he acquired not only a wife but a 3-year old daughter Robin whom he loved as his own. They went on to have three more children, Candace, Ian and Andrew.

Don was a man of many hobbies including fly fishing, taking his family on camping trips to Red's Meadow, coaching his children's sports teams, scouting, stained glass, photography, growing orchids, carpentry, restoring antique Studebaker cars, flying sports kites, computers, and Indian dancing. He had a great love of Native American art and had an extensive Kachina collection. Don started a lucrative new business in Incident Management Training, teaching classes all over the country. He felt retirement gave him the chance to still participate in the fire community and time to pursue his other passions.

Among the highlights of his life was serving on National Incident Command Teams for the last 21 years of his career and seeing his son Andrew attain the rank of Eagle Scout in March. On the day that he passed away he remarked to a neighbor when asked about his retirement "Every day is a Saturday" "Retirement is a dream." His family takes solace in knowing that when he passed he was a very content and happy man who had accomplished every goal he had ever set for himself.

A powerful lineup of speakers then chronicled their experiences working with, for and alongside Don. The thoughts and stories expressed by these individuals came from the heart and were wrought with emotion.

A video presentation of Don's infamous "IC's Closing Comments" from the Eyerly Complex elicited both admiration and applause from the audience. This was followed by a showing of a power point program that Don personally concocted for his retirement party last February. This featured photos of Don throughout his life from the early years up until his last day in the office. Set to music personally selected by Don, it was extremely powerful.

"Leadership in the Words of Don Studebaker", the focus of Don's acceptance speech when he received the Cal Yarbrough Award as "R5 Division Chief of the Year" in 2001 was printed on the memorial service program and also reviewed with the audience:

Listen to the people you work with. Remember, the further you are removed from the tasks on the ground, reality tends to pale and fade from your memory.
Empower subordinates and allow them to spread their wings.
Achieve your goals and help those that work for you achieve theirs.
Demonstrate by being a role model. Lead by example. Show them how.
Encourage others to achieve and reach to a higher standard.
Responsive of the needs of your people and the organization.
Share what you know.
Help others to meet their expectations.
Inspire. Lead and others will follow.
Prepare your people to succeed.

Presentations were made to Ann Studebaker and the family including a Fallen Firefighter Statue, Angel and Prayer Quilt.

The Honor Guard then re-entered and conducted the folding of the US Flag with a presentation of the flag to Ann and the family. This was followed by the "Last Call" Bell Ceremony.

A short prayer was read followed by a few closing remarks. The Studebaker family was then escorted outdoors along a covered walkway lined by at least 200 uniformed firefighters, an awe-inspiring sight if there ever was one. Upon gathering outside, the family and those in attendance viewed a red-lights procession of USFS-CNF engines, crew carriers, water tenders and support vehicles. Shortly afterward two Type II fire helicopters concluded the program by flying by from east to west with sirens wailing. At the last moment, one peeled off to the south as they passed overhead. Very touching to say the least.

I will never forget Don Studebaker and today's memorial service doubly reinforces that fact.

Everything was conducted with reverence and the utmost in taste. "A BIG THANK YOU" goes out to everyone who donated, organized and participated this special event!

bumppulaski

Don Studebaker, Retired Deputy Fire Chief for the Cleveland National Forest, died last week (April 24) of a heart attack. Don was a tremendously respected and well liked leader who will be sorely missed.

I had the pleasure of meeting Don on two occasions. The first time was over a glass of fine wine supplied and poured by a good friend who fortuitously also happens to be the Forest Service’s unofficial wine connoisseur. The three of us had discreetly left an official function to meet in the back parking lot for a session of wine tasting and conversation. It didn’t take long for me to realize Don was a special someone I really needed to spend time with if I ever wanted to understand wildland fire. He was a wealth of information and was selfless in his desire to help and encourage me in the work I was doing. This all showed clearly at a wildland fire convention last October. I had just given a presentation on chaparral when Don stood up in the back of the room and told the crowd some pretty nice things about me. You see, I knew next to nothing about fire until I jumped into the topic after the 2003 southern California firestorms. Don had read and listened to all the things I said from the very beginning when my lack of experience showed to a time when I was finally starting to get it straight. He said that I was beginning to get a good handle on things and was proud of what I had accomplished. I’ll never forget that moment. You don’t expect that kind of thoughtfulness in such a setting, but it reflected who Don was. People don’t usually don’t take the time to do that. He was willing to help others and do whatever he could to inspire a greater understanding of the important work wildland firefighters do so well. I so wish we had had another chance to have another glass of wine before he left.

Rick Halsey

• We currently own and maintain our SCBA gear. A local physician who certifies the county also certify our folks medically during their "required for other reasons" twice a year physicals. The SCBAs are certified and repaired by the same individual who does the county. Let's see …we have had SCBAs for around 10 years now and the neighboring counties still maintain their required level of outfitting commensurate with their jurisdictional responses.
• We are paying HUGE cost pool dollars now supposedly for admin and other support yet the on the ground fire folks are required to complete all of our own administrative "stuff".
• Can't remember the last time any 'project" dollars were available besides fuels… and that has come back just recently. Fire has been funding other functions of late. Also not sure which planet you are on …. I have never seen staff here worry one lick about keeping the "fire folks" on … unless it is with fire dollars to accomplish project work…. 
• We do our own times and administrative work now. As for food unit leaders?? When besides on an incident do you use one? District BBQ's?? Fire folks fill that role also!
• We have very little militia now. Would be prudent in my mind to have an agency that did not rely on "part timers" in this day and age. Times have changed….
• NEPA required environmental documentations are the responsibility of the agency and should remain so. By the way, many times we have "fire" folks help the "ologists" with the documentation or complete it anyway cause the ""ologists have other projects… and the "ologists" seem to always charge for their services anyways…… hmmmm thought that was what they were funded for….
• I would rather pay top dollar for decent facilities than continue to function in the substandard facilities that the fine agency has us in now…. 

Still hanging in there as a Forest Service Supervisory Forestry Technician with Firefighter retirement and FIRE as the primary duty and responsibility in my PD…..

yactak

As I’ve said before, I support a wildland firefighter series and standardization between agencies. I also think it would be wise for agencies with relatively small fire programs to go to the larger agencies for coverage rather than maintaining a bunch of small federal fire programs. And, although the rest of this message may sound like it, I’m not against prudent use of SCBA since I’ve been on fires where people have been exposed to hazardous fire gasses. But I think what so many have supported lately in the They Said will lead to a financial train wreck:

• Go to an all-risk approach and substantially increase the costs associated with buying and maintaining the extra equipment plus increase either the training costs or pay for a certified SCBA contractor to repair and inspect breathing gear. Watch cost-strapped counties reduce their presence since the fire agency is providing this service on federal lands, thus increasing the staffing and equipment costs and reducing the flexibility to respond to wildland fires.
• Pay all the administrative costs year-round to support the fire agency (managers, acquisition personnel, etc.).
• Bring crews on later and lay them off earlier since no project dollars will be available. (I participated in hours of meetings where recreation, biology, and other staff officers worked their durndest to keep the hotshots on duty.)
• Start paying the seasonal and full-time employee costs for timekeepers, food unit leaders, information officers, GIS folks, and others who used to be called on from non-fire careers to fill out a huge chuck of an incident organization. (Do you really expect to draw folks from agencies that are losing their fire culture? It might work for a few years, then what?)
• Take on the full costs of nation-wide fire research.
• Hire ologists, foresters, and planners to prepare the NEPA-required environmental documentation for “federal actions.".
• Pay top dollar for buildings a million miles from where you need to be because of some GSA intervention.

Still Out There as an AD

Wisconsin fire (20 miles S of Wisconsin Rapids)
5 homes destroyed as of 6PM; 1,400 acres; pine WUI; heard later 4,000 acres
Wildfire Spreads Quickly in Adams County includes video

Wisconsin Fire Danger

and that fire isn't the only one burning...

In the new Ruralite magazine there's a nice article on Tom "Troop" Edmonds who was a smokejumper for 25 years. He is now inventing new tools for firefighting - one which is an improvement on the Pulaski. Interesting reading.

The Prineville Memorial walk run will be on the 4th of June this year. 5k 10k walk or run. It costs $23.00 for entry with a t-shirt included. Lots of fun. You can sign up before 8:00 at the starting point or can mail in entries to the Prineville Athletic Club (541) 447-4878 Is the phone number.

Hope to see some of you there.

KB

KB, it was good to meet you in Boise. Glad you're part of this community. Ab.

I have a question for you all in NWSA in light of recent posts on awards...

Does NWSA award or give formal recognition to an outstanding organization and/or crew within the private sector? It seems to me that such an annual award might be in order. Professionalism and leadership are about setting the standards (values), achieving "buy in" by the member organizations/ crews, monitoring yourselves and each other (all of which I know your NWSA membership tries to do), removing members, disciplining crews, firing individuals that don't measure up, and honoring those that could be held up as an exceptional example of fire professionalism. Just an idea. Maybe you already do that and it just hasn't shown up on wildlandfire.com's Awards page yet.

On a slightly different note... I loved it that the inscription carved into the rock that is placed with the Wildland Firefighter Statue is

IN HONOR AND RECOGNITION OF ALL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS
ACROSS THIS GREAT NATION

DUTY - RESPECT - INTEGRITY

Thanks to Dennis Pendleton for the idea of having a larger than life wildland firefighter monument in airports across the West, to NWSA for the donations to the Foundation to "make it so", to Brit Rosso for his suggestion on wording of the inscription, and to others for reviewing the wording. The wording is perfect. The values DUTY, RESPECT, INTEGRITY represent what we are... and what we ALL aspire to!

Q-man, my R5 friend, my personal thanks for showing up and offering your personal thanks to the crews of firefighters past, future and present - SJs, IHCs, Private Sector who were there. I want one of those 8' bronze statues in a CA airport near me, but first I want the WFF optimally funded so we can insure ALL families in need can be served without financial concerns on the part of those running the WFF. We need for them to carry on as stress-free as possible and that's hard when we're always wondering if there will be enough funding to back us up through the season.

Special thanks to Vicki, Melissa, Burk and Polly for their great work on our behalf for fire families, on this statue dedication, and for shouldering the ongoing important work at the Foundation. You all are the GREATEST!

HEY READERS, all wildland firefighters and our families need you to donate to the 52 Club. Get your name on the 52 list! Better yet, get your whole organization/ crew/ family/ friends on the 52 gold list. It's human nature for prospective donors to visit the foundation site, be all positive, then go home or back to work offering few follow-up donations. We all need to BUY IN to this Foundation. It's OUR Foundation. My suggestion: write a check and take it with you. Offer it in person or leave it discreetly on a desk. It's too easy to let other priorities intrude once you leave. This Foundation is this wildland firefighter community and exists for our families' benefit. Our Foundation may appear to have deep pockets, but in the larger scheme of things it's small fry - hopefully  on the cusp of becoming bigger fry - but only if we all help by both walking the walk and by talking the talk with friends and coworkers. What amazes me is that, as foundations go, WFF has not been in existence all that long for the worlds of good it's done.

OK, so bottom line, we need more money in our WFF coffers to meet needs for this year and, heaven forbid, we all know bad things happen. When we have deaths or injuries, they often come in a flurry. The immediate drain on Foundation funding is great. We've already had some deaths and injuries this year and the heat of the season is not yet upon us. $52 a year is not much to contribute for "support insurance" for our families. Ask anyone who's gone through this... when I asked in Boise, they all told me with the same look in their eyes "You never think it will be YOU." And then they all told me the value of the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.

I was amazed to discover the good-ly amount of money the private sector fire organizations contribute in support of interagency fire families. Hmmmm, I wonder how many 52 club memberships the private sector provides relative to number of their employees, say, in comparison with agency 52 club memberships per number of agency employees. My analytical mind... I'm not asking that the private sector do less, but that maybe everyone else in the fire agencies could do more.

Thanks Tahoe IHC! Your crew's pledge call came in while I was in the WFF office. It made me proud! Arrowhead IHC, thanks for your continued support and outreach. Rowdy good on you for kicking all this off with the teams last year! Awesome collection of t-shirts on the wall and awesome contributions from the crews and teams from the Great Basin. ...Which 4 hotshot t-shirts are you still missing? Heh, t-shirt visitors look like they have fun. I saw some pics of Elizabeth C up on the ladder putting up one from the Modoc IHC...

Readers, stop by and check out the t-shirts when you get a chance. Drop some bills or a 52-club check in the boot.

Couple of ideas:
Anyone who has contacts or ideas for people we could contact who may make large donations or if anyone has grant-writing experience, please email me or Melissa at the WF Foundation. Any other fund-raising ideas, holler.

This summer if any members of the public you serve asks you how they can help, give them the url for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation! (www.wffoundation.org) Make sure you're on one of those mandatory work/rest breaks when you do it.

If you haven't donated, donate! If you guys want to talk with someone at the Foundation before you donate, call Burk! 208-336-2996

Thanks for listening! and acting in support! This is an awesome wildland fire community!

Mellie

The names of Ted Putnam and Paul Gleason are properly found together in these awards. Ted taught me, among other things, that findings in reports are not the end of the story. Rather, they are doors through which one needs to pass in order to explore for truth and understanding. Paul's leadership continues to save lives, as at the Nuttall Complex deployment, where "LCES worked".

Once the proceedings are posted by IAWF the readers of this site will find some fascinating information, such as Jennifer Thackaberry's explanation of how the wildland fire service's ethical model moved from a virtue-based model to a duty-based model in the context of the Fire Orders. Having been involved since 1968, I should have realized the shift myself - too much smoke in the way? Thanks IAWF.

Old Sawyer.

I put Ted's awards on the Award page. Ab.

“I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done.”

And…

“If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.”

Have a good May cause Dirty August is coming.

Backburnfs

" how we have to get resource managers out of fire management"..

that is the root of all evil in the discussion... I dont give a rats ass when the value of a human life is compared to the value of natural resources.

The fact is ... a human life cannot be replaced, the natural resources can !!!!

Training Guy, you also said ..

"The thing is that everyone must understand is that fire management of any kind (suppression, Rx, or wildland fire use) *is* land (resource) management. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself."

... I say Bullshi!!!!!! .. stop fooling yourself and others.... do some research. If land management cannot learn what the firefighters are talking and walking.... then there needs to be a separation.

First, fire is not a bunch of culls... they are forward thinkers.... folks who consider all things.... safety and the lives of employees are foremost. Wildland firefighters want change, very needed change for safety. Cultural and educational biases prevent change. When ologists, maybe such as yourself, refuse to look at all the options.. you are presented with the problem that the current Forest Service Chief addressed, and yes, it does exist and will continue to exist under the current system....

“Our problem is not really change; change is inevitable. Our problem is that too many people seem to be stuck in the past.” Dale Bosworth, Chief of the Forest Service (2003)

Training Guy, you are fooling yourself if any more "Fire" folks are going to die because of your resource concerns and the idea that the management of the land trumps the rights of employee and firefighter safety.. fire folks are fed up of having folks with less than full knowledge give half truths and without giving any reference to the sources from which you gained the knowledge.

Lobotomy

I'm not up to date on this. Last I heard it would be early June... Ab.

Well deserved congratulations to Ted. Ab.

Well, from my perspective that poop you mention has been hitt'in the props fer years.  OriginalAb.

The unveiling of the wildland firefighter statue and party 
following it were pretty cool. Wonderful to meet Shane's 
and Jeff's parents and siblings and Levi Brinkley's parents 
and Sarah Larson, Matt's mom and his little sister. Had a good 
time talking with members of NWSA.

Casey of FWFSA was present, he cleaned up nicely. I couldn't 
see my notes to remind me what the initials stood for. My bad!

For all my norcal L-380 buds, our MCS instructor Bill showed 
up with his wife. A couple of the Boise jumpers said he is 
remarkable, in great shape for being sooooooo old and retired. 
Got to visit with a few of the jumpers including Eric Hipke briefly.

Today the NIFC barbeque, Memorial Ceremony bell ringing, silence 
and Intermountain Legacy Production were very nice.

HAPPY 100th BIRTHDAY, FOREST SERVICE!

Mellie

Don you will be missed, I will think of you when I fire the 21 gun salute on Memorial Day. 

God Bless us all.
Dave

Here are all the pics together. Don Studebaker. Ab.

I knew Brain from Minden two years ago; he flew T26 out of Minden.
This picture of T26 is from last summer. It came in to Minden to fight 
the Andrew fire south of Reno. Hope your viewers like it

Ron Santi

Thanks Ron, we also feel the loss of our good aerial firefighting folks. Ab.

The following are some statements I have heard resource managers make who
have been "in charge" of supervising and managing forest service fire
management programs.

• "We don't need a fire management organization on this forest."
• "Just how aggressive do we want to be this year on initial attack?"

I could go on, but this is just an example. Now that should raise your
eyebrows, your ears, and your situational awareness.

I believe a federal wildland fire department that is supervised and managed
by firefighters with demonstrated leadership and skill in fire management
is the only way to go. Safety, effectiveness, efficiency, and service
demand it! It won't happen easily or overnight, but it is the right thing
to do.

KevinJ

Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The memorial service for Don Studebaker, retired Deputy Fire Chief of the Cleveland National Forest will be held on Friday May 6th at the Barona Ranch Hotel and Casino at the adjoining conference center. Click on the link below for directions. The service will begin at 1000 and will conclude by 1200. Dress or field uniforms will be appropriate for USFS personnel and Class A uniforms for cooperating agency personnel, 

www.barona.com

The Studebaker family requests in lieu of flowers that donations in memory of Don be made to one of the following : 

By Credit Card: Wildland Firefighter Foundation or Boy Scouts of America

By Mail: 
Boys Scout of America: 
San Diego County Council 
1207 Upas Street 
San Diego, CA 92103 

Wildland Firefighter Foundation
2049 Airport Way
Boise, ID. 83705

Condolences for the family can be sent to: Ann Studebaker
4739 55th Street
San Diego, CA 92115

“But sometimes, no matter how much safety is stressed, accidents do occur. And they can occur with tragic results, such as serious injury or death. I promise you that the recommendations of this investigation team will not be forgotten. I am charging my leadership team with ensuring—and I am accepting responsibility for the Forest Service to do everything within its power to ensure—that what happened on the Thirtymile Fire does not happen again.” Dale Bosworth, Chief of the Forest Service (2002)

“At Storm King Mountain, at Mann Gulch, and on countless other fires over the last hundred years, many brave men and women fought the flames and sometimes made the ultimate sacrifice. They did not do so in vain. The lessons they taught are still with us today. We owe it to them, we owe it to ourselves, to always remember our cardinal rule: Safety is our first priority.” Mike Dombeck, former Chief of the Forest Service (2001)

“The USDA Forest Service and other natural resource agencies are proud to employ some of the brightest and most experienced firefighting professionals as our leaders in the fire organization.

These leaders have worked their way up the firefighting ladder through years of experience. They have dug line, jumped from airplanes into remote areas to handle initial attack, and planned and conducted prescribed burns to accomplish important natural resource objectives.” Mike Dombeck, former Chief of the Forest Service (2000)

“Looking back at my time as Chief of the USDA Forest Service, I vividly remember the summer of 1994. We lost 34 friends and co-workers --- and many others were injured --- during efforts to contain wildland fires. I spent agonizing days trying, as best I could, to console families, deal with survivors, attend services, and work to see that such tragedies were less likely to repeat themselves. My nights are still interrupted with flashbacks to that awful summer”. Jack Ward Thomas, former Chief of the Forest Service (1999)

As a wildland fire manager, I vividly look at the years of 1987… 1988… 1990 … 1994 … 1996 … 2000 … 2001 … and 2003 as my portal for learning and “having flashbacks” as JWT states … I was on fatal fires those years…. . events that should not be repeated but ARE repeated time and time again.

Too many friends and co-workers have died, is it time for a change?

From a famous quote from Albert Einstein, “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Lobotomy

Where would it be located? Would it be interspersed across the West and the rest of the country or in a couple of locations? Who would do the work of the militia and the dispatchers, and all? How would it be paid for? Everyone says don't let it be like when the LEOs were stovepiped. What exactly happened to the LEOs and how would this be different or would it be?

Thinking about implications.

More later.
Mellie

Yactac,
You my brother hit the nail on the head
AMEN!!!!!!!!

NORCAL CAPT

JW

The Supply Cache

Rob

“Possibly the single largest challenge now facing leaders of these federal agencies is to foster cooperation and collaboration among working-level staffs, contractors and states to raise the standards of aerial firefighting in the United States.”

So talk to one of the fixed wing air tanker contractors…. See how much “cooperation and collaboration” with them has gone on. Speaking of air tankers, after the Forest Service rescinded the air tanker contracts, extra helicopters were brought on CWN to “augment” our aerial firefighting resources. We had one on the forest… S-61 that carried 550 gallons of water in its initial attack bucket. Let’s see, it “replaced” a 3,000 gallon air tanker that cost about $4500.00 per day availability and about the same per flight hour. The S-61 cost $12,500 per day availability and about $6000.00 per flight hour. You do the math …. 90 day million dollar contracts. 550 gallons vs. 3000 gallons. How many of these contracts were spread across the nation? I believe at least ten, possibly more. Lead Planes…. National Aviation Office tried for over a year to purchase replacements for the Barons. Couldn’t get it together and finally gave some money to the Regions to lease lead planes. So now each region is doing its own thing and aircraft standardization has gone out the window. Set the lead plane program back at least twenty years. The BLM has an excellent model in its ASM program but the FS has the “not invented here” syndrome so forget about doing something that has a proven track record.

Times have changed radically since I started with the Forest Service. Unfortunately the Forest Service leadership has not kept up with the times, attempting to manage a Fire/Fuels and Aviation Organization that has become more complex with increased responsibilities.

Will creating one Federal Wildland Fire Agency solve these problems right away? Obviously not, but it will provide an agency with one goal and mission able to focus on its issues.

I know I did not hit all the reasons for creating one Federal Wildland Fire Service and some of the ones I did hit on may be seen as local issues, but these local issues are, to me, indicative of agency failure. I am fortunate to have started with the Forest Service when I did and would not change that. The Natural Resource Management Agencies no longer have any business trying to manage Emergency Services. Fire/Fuels and Aviation Management is a full time profession requiring students of fire in the leadership roles not biologists.

yactak

I do believe that we are professional firefighters but in reality we are only recognized as 0462 FORESTRY TECHS, 0455 RANGE TECHS, and 401 BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE FIRE MANAGERS. Does anybody see the light as to where this is going? I have; we are going back to the days of bucket brigades. Or how about we all just volunteer since we love our jobs so much.

I am sorry folks but I need to blow sometimes.

I just have one more question for anyone who has the answer.

If we go to a natl fire service, which I doubt will happen in the next 40 years, who is gonna be in charge? and where are we gonna get money from?

NORCAL Capt

P.S. I promise you all this much. If just one FF gets killed this year due to inexperience or misguidance from outside the fire realm, I will be the first one to call my congressman and request an answer as to why was the money for firefighting taken away? Is your life really worth $485,000,000? I know mine is not in Land managers eyes.

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Glad to hear there will be a Wildland Firefighter statue in the BOI airport, finally - where better to start a trend...

Rumor is most of the competent NIFC & NICC dispatchers may not return this season. politics takes its toll everywhere

Best wishes to the new hires regardless of agency, new to fire or newly promoted; be safe y'all,

-iver