I recall Bulletin Board Systems. Way back, many years ago, there wasn't a public Internet as we know it now. The BBS systems were the precursor to the Internet. They were privately owned and operated computer systems that provided discussion forums, email, chat rooms, software downloads, and much more. It was all DOS based and one had to know or learn a certain amount of text commands to make anything happen. There wasn't any windows based point and click happening. And unless you lived in a select few big cities, you were forced to pay big bucks to the phone company for connecting long distance, not to mention the monthly fees the BBS charged. My monthly phone bills were regularly over $250. I didn't consider it a big deal and was happy to be able to reach out and communicate. OriginalAb.

PS: I also know what Trumpet Winsock is.

There does not have to be a "failure" in leadership for a line of duty death to occur. All of us are aware of the x-factor. I believe that no amount of training, no amount of equipment, even the most experienced of personnel will be bitten by the x-factor. I just wanted to point that out - that even the best laid of plans can get buggered.

eric

NW

See Cathy Rucker's post below regarding the timeframe of the NIOSH Report.

Those doing the report probably had something new on carbon monoxide brought to their attention and they added it. It's not like some info was left out of the most recent report on the Novato website. Good info was added.

I downloaded the first Novato report last May. I should update that one on the server here to include the carbon monoxide information. Ab.

Welcome Cathy, sorry for your loss. I hope you know it's not our intention to inflict more pain. Firefighters just have to hash things out to see what can be learned. Ab.

<chuckle>
I thought the reason we went to training was so we would use it afterwards. I put up all the possible topics to encourage people to think about possible issues.

Sometimes I just can't help myself...

Mellie

PS Engineer Rucker's failure to go to the house is a puzzle we may never have the answer to. One simple possible human factors explanation comes from the "fight or flight" adrenalin and heart rate research. When we get charged up with adrenalin, it affects our whole body. Our heart rate increases automatically and lots of other human factors come into play. Ab could you please put up this quick Table of how adrenalin affects heart rate and other human functions. Fire sights, sounds, smell, heat overwhelm the senses, triggering massive adrenalin release. Engineer Rucker could simply have had an extreme adrenalin release and a heart rate increase into the red zone that made him confused, and be unable to run. There are individual differences in how people respond to that kind of stress.

So, the Cedar Fire Report is the latest catalyst to controversy and discussion. That is what this site was put together for (correct me if I am wrong Ab). And so far there has been some provocative ideas put forth. Again, that is what the site is for, right?

But, it appears that some feathers have been ruffled and some offense has been taken. Cooler heads, like Mellie and others have tried to get folks to focus on what we can learn from and avoid 'pointing fingers'. I applaud those efforts even though and precisely because I have been perceived to be abrasive and out of line at times. Sometimes it has been for a purpose, to be provocative, others it was misguided attempts at humor.

A respected colleague of mine reads They Said but never responds because he feels that too many folks just use this site to spout off with out having any real insight, he may have a point, but I wish he would contribute, he has some great ideals... and ideas.

One of the problems with a BBS (Bulletin Board System) is that it relies on the written word which is inherently limited. Readers cannot hear inflection, see body language and sense other cues that give clues to intent and emphasis. Don't get me wrong, this place is a great resource and has contributed greatly to the availability of info, and chance for discussion, I am just pointing out one of its limitations. Trust me I understand them better since certain communications produced an unintended misunderstanding.

But it is all worth it for such a provocative site, right?

Provocative: Function: adjective: serving or tending to provoke , excite, or stimulate

{Merriam-Webster Online}

BB

The State of Idaho Department of Lands is recruiting for two full time positions of Lands Resource Managers - Fire. One entry level, one Senior position. The application period closes June 17th, see the Jobs Page for more info.

Ab.

Thanks Old Fire DOG. Another piece for looking at the puzzle. Ab.

KB

Thanks, Ab.

What happened? (Read about it.) What are the unanswered questions in your minds? Here are some things I thought of as I read along. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on any and all of the following that is not clear in the report:

• Was there an up-to-date plan? Large plan (IAP?). Small plan: saving the house safely? Was the plan accomplished? If there was no plan, why not? If the plan failed, why?
• What led to entrapment? Were standard procedures followed pre-entrapment? Which ones were not? Why not?
• After entrapment, were standard procedures followed? Which ones were not? Why not? Why did some survive, but not Engineer Rucker?
• If we use the Swiss Cheese Model of causality, what was the " proximal cause"? What were the "latent causes"? What holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up? Where are agency and fire organization strengths? All agencies/organizations? Where are agency and fire organization weaknesses? All fire agencies/organizations?
• We're interagency in this day and age; we need to communicate better and better. How can we do that?
• Training. At a minimum do we need training standards like CICCS or 310-1 or something more like FSH 5109.17. What about physical training and physical fitness standards? How might we bring all cooperators up to speed on training? Do we need to do that?
• A good leader knows the "team member" strengths and weaknesses and uses them appropriately. Would it be better to match agencies/organization's current training, experience and job (structure vs wildland) with assignment? Can we track that with technology?
• What part did human factors play in this tragedy? How might knowledge of human factors help firefighters make better choices? Would this help at all? (Aside: Did the hotshield masks that Rucker and McDonald wore have any effect? Do they off-gas at high temps?)
• What part did leadership play? How might formal leadership skills help us make better choices? What impact did human factors have on leadership decisions?
• Experience. How is experience with wildland fire documented in each organization? How do we keep those with not enough experience out of leadership roles?
• Competence. How do we make sure that firefighters at every level are competent to perform their job as safely as possible? How do we fire those who are not competent? Is it easier for fire departments to fire incompetent firefighters than for land use agencies to fire incompetent firefighters? Measurable standards?

Readers, the political wrangling and infighting following the 2003 Cedar Fire After Action Review was sad. It had lots of potential that was not realized. Let's do better than that. Please, let's educate each other.

Mellie

<snip, a theysaid post November 11/9/04>

It is in my hopes that the CDF heads will not turn a blind eye as they have done in the past. They need to make public now that it does not end with this report and that they are investigating further actions. Regardless of the agency, accountability must be up held.

R5 Dirtminer

I think the release of this report makes the burnout information public. Ab.

There are alternative explanations for Engineer Rucker's behavior in my opinion. Ab.

I took out the repeated reference to CDF in the post with the 19 points. I can see how you might interpret it as CDF bashing. Knowing the poster, I know that was not the poster's intent. FYI, there has been CDF input on this thread, so this isn't simply a case of non-CDF firefighters ganging up on CDF.

That said, Firefighters, let's remember to focus on "the what, not the who" for the best lessons learned. I appreciate that CDF has released the report and commend them. We can all learn from it. We will have interface fires in the future. We should be more ready. Ab.

• First let me say we all were doing the best we could during the Cedar Firestorm, especially for the first few days. Resources were committed to the firestorms to our north. We were short. We were watching communities go up in smoke. We knew some people were loosing their lives. Day1 we were all acting fairly independently as we tried to get the organizations and coordination up to speed. By Day2-3 we were doing better but anyone who was there can tell you we were in combat mode the whole time. Some more experienced firefighters more than others. Willing structure firefighters who wanted to help were rolling in. By Day5 there was still a sense of urgency. Adrenalin was way too high. We need to guard against that in the future if we can.
• Communications. We need to do better. If you can't communicate, pull back.
• Fire training. We need to do better for firefighters not well trained or experienced in wildland. Grass fires are not the same as the conflagration we faced on the Cedar. Structure training is very different than wildland. It's hard if not impossible to be trained and experienced in both. When push comes to shove we go back to our training. We need to recognize our strengths and weaknesses and the strengths and weaknesses of our brothers/sisters. We need to place them on tasks they can accomplish successfully and safely. If/when we have a terrorist HAZMAT situation we will need to recognize that the situation will be way beyond the training and experience of many of our wildland firefighters. We will need those trained in hazmat to consider our training and inexperience.
• Escape Routes/Safety Zones: When you have a hammer all you see is nails. When you're a structure firefighter experienced with small grass fires, you see a structure as a safety zone, instead of seeing it as just another fuel type.
• Dedicated Lookout: Hard to remember this one when you're focused on structure. Harder yet to find someone that can really see and read the fire behavior. Saddle anyone? Smoke from several directions?
• When people see something they've never seen before, they often don't make good choices. Whose fault is that? When firefighters don't know what they don't know, most will think they know how to handle it and they try. It's in our nature to try.
• Finally. Most firefighters will assume those around them have a similar level of experience and can take care of themselves. We can't afford to make that assumption on the interface with interagency resources.

That's my twobits for a start.

Sign me socal CDF (Another one)

I couldn’t help but look back in your archives and re-read “Fire it Up!” from a few years back. Paragraph 7:

“I must say to be fair though, some of this effectiveness is also due to the inexperience of DIVS and other overhead not being very creative in how to use them, so it is not entirely the fault of the OES strike team. This is why you see reference to the "Lawn Chair" syndrome. Even the OES strike team leaders are getting a little more savvy to this and are trying to be a bit more discrete in the use of the dreaded chair and find meaningful work for their team. It's even covered now in I-330 STL class as a no-no!”

I can’t help but think that this lawn chair culture somehow had a part in all this. Local, state, and federal resources approach these fires differently. State and federal approach this work as another day on the job whether that is on forest, off forest, or in county or out of county. To local government, an out of district response is something rare and afforded to the few. It is a party, a chance to “get out” and go have some fun and see some big fire and play with the big dogs. Probably sounds harsh and arrogant, but it is a reality.

I am glad to see the CDF finally release something more than one of their standard 2-3 page “green sheet” on a major accident investigation. As much as some of these things must sting to those involved, there are valuable training lessons here to be learned that would never have been brought to light. I wonder though if this was an intentional release, there is nothing official about internally from the Sacramento office about it. Go to the CDF website and find it if you can without the link provided on They Said It.

Questions or thoughts generated in my mind after a first time read:

1. Was the DIVS local, state or federal? Does that matter? Maybe so.
2. Was the CDF Captain an experienced hand that saw something inevitable coming and reacted deliberately (independent action vs free lancing) to it, knowing full well he was operating in a manner inconsistent with accepted risks for when things don’t work out (“Stud vs Pud”)?
3. Why was the FC so adamant earlier about an aggressive tactical plan? Were things so stagnant that he felt he needed to take the world by the balls?
4. Would he have acted this way with CDF resources around him? Would those resources have understood the situation differently? Would the captains on those resources “kicked his F@$%*&^ ass” for doing what he did or proposed to do?
5. Did the local government people understand what they were seeing from the fire and what the fire effects were about to be from the main fire?
6. Lawn chair syndrome (again) by local government and the party is on, we get to go on the road again yippee!
7. No common communications between forces at a critical time when everyone needs to be on the same channel (or at least the DIVS and STL’s).
8. It looks like the only guy who really sized up the whole thing was the El Cariso Supt-things got weird and he re-grouped.
9. Did the Novato engineer listen to what the Novato captain was telling him to do?
10. How can the Novato FF not have had a hose pack and yet there is a burned up pile of hose next to him. Somebody was trying to fight fire with more hose.
11. Reaction time of the Novato crew vs rate of spread.
12. Why was the engine spotted where it was in the first place-between the main head fire and the house? And how come it is the only thing that didn’t burn to the ground? If it didn’t burn then that means there was an opportunity for something else to not burn. Something isn’t adding up here at all.
13. Could the engine have been parked down the driveway somewhere and hose laid back up the driveway?
14. Why was the crew trying to force a door at a critical time and why were they doing from the fire side of the house? Did anyone look first to see if the doors were unlocked or open one first long before the fire got to them if they intended to stay? Why didn’t they run around the lee side of the house and get in there? No doors?
15. Did they understand what the Captain and engineer were doing? Sounds like it was a parallel operation trying to hold back the inevitable.
16. Why were the FIREFIGHTERS taking PICTURES on fire impinging on them instead of fighting fire, etc….
17. Why do the agencies (state or fed) put local government resources in these positions during critical fire weather, fuels and behavior alone without agency resources? We don’t put private dozers alone any more for this very reason.
18. There is NOTHING new that needs to be created in the training world to mitigate this incident. It all exists now. This should be the case study for the L-180 through L380 series. Perfect fit.
19. Don’t burden us with more rules and restrictions as a result of this, most can see the problems here and will use this report to revisit them.

I feel for the FC, he has a long road of scorn ahead of him, but then again, it is all about choices (#2 above). In a way it’s kind of like driving drunk and somebody hits you. Well, maybe.

Sign me “Sad for those involved, but grateful for the information”

Links to the Novato Cedar Incident Report and the CDF Cedar Incident Report are on the Documents Worth Reading list on the Archives page and on the Site Map.

A Guide to the California Public Records Act
www.thefirstamendment.org/capra.html

NK

If you can't get it up the chain of command, file a SAFENET.

Strider

FC: an experienced and trained company officer and fire station manager. Well-qualified to train, mentor & and supervise groups of subordinates. Directs and oversees the emergency and non-emergency activities and duties of a fire company.

My-gawd. Why hasn't the cowboy FC on the Cedar Fire been terminated by CDF or at least stood down? Where's the discipline??? He was out of line running around doing what he was doing outside of the chain of command and it sounds like he doesn't have a clue. CDF must think his behavior is OK if they've done nothing. Are they afraid of having to bear some responsibility for Steve Rucker's death if they discipline him?

As an exercise, take the death out of the story, the FCs behavior is unacceptable.

SoCal County Firefighter

TP

NM Firefighter

AL

CDF Cedar Incident Report, 05 (2749K pdf file)

• Loss of Life: One firefighter died in the deployment area.
• Injuries: Several burned in the deployment area.
• Situation:
  • Early morning start in the middle of the 1987 “siege”.
  • Two copters and fly crews dispatched with ground resources and fixed wing
    ordered.
  • The fire was situated in a basically E-W drainage.
  • The fire was making narrow strip runs from the valley floor to the
    ridgeline at @0700.
  • Fuel was old brushy logging re-growth with considerable heavy dead and
    down component.
• Events:
  • Ground crews were flanking the fire with hose lays and hand lines.
  • The first fly crew got out on the ridgeline and was holding the ridge.
  • The second fly crew chose not to commit to the ridgeline and committed to
    the right flank supporting a direct hose lay attack. They were ahead of
    the hose lay punching a hole through the brush.
  • About 1000 hours the fly crew on the ridgeline asked if the lower fly
    crew could bump up to their location to provide support to the holding
    action. Airtankers were working the fire by this time.
  • The lower fly crew decided to advance ahead of the direct attack hose lay
    thinking they were over half way to the ridgeline.
• What happened:
  • The fly crew trying to hike up hill through the brush found
    very tough travel in the heavy growth and down material. They were only
    about one-third of the way to the ridgeline.

A normal weather cycle that was not anticipated or identified caught the
crew. Since sun-up the fire aspect was in solar heating evidenced by the
perpendicular narrow strip runs on the S-SW slope. As the morning
progressed, the drainage started to develop normal up drainage air movement.
The right flank (E) was beginning to vector to the east with the air
movement. When the fly crew started up the hill they took a perpendicular
path looking for the shortest distance to the ridgeline. The fire made a
run with an up canyon vector that outflanked the fly crew putting them in a
head too wide and intense for them to relocate and escape based on their
inability to move rapidly.

This is a bare bones account. As with all fatality and near miss situations
there are always a myriad of contributing factors having causal or
contributing affects. This was not the “mother of all fires”, it was a very
normal wildland fire. Guards were down for a numbers of reasons.

J.Watt

We appreciate the air tanker support.

www.eastvalleytribune.com

MM

Grounded forest air tanker fleet reactivated

Firefighting aircraft ready for duty in northeast Valley (AZ)

Scottsdale (AZ) lands wildfire tanker

Neptune Aviation Cleared for Takeoff (Missoula MT)

AZ F/F

PS thanx Ab for making my links good

Yer welcome. Be safe. Ab.

KDL

With the upcoming season looming, I would hope that all of our firefighters on this board would remember to use a certain thing that we all have, in our jobs... our brains. You see, we had a "discussion," today a "mandatory, voluntary," one at that. It seems to me that some folks, apparently mostly those in higher level positions have lost touch with reality... and the day to day SOPs of our profession. We are getting bogged down by issues such as "can we go without shirts on P.T. runs... and do we look professional enough?" instead of focusing on issues such as critical, important training, and the necessity of being with our crew EVERY day at least the first two weeks of coming on. I would encourage all, not just those in R-5 but everywhere to focus on the important issues, our safety, our people, and our cohesion... apparently some do not believe these are important attributes to pursue as making sure the Forest Supervisor is "in touch," with their fire folks... Even though they do not even hold a firefighter 2 cert. Sign me...

N.Z. FIRE

GH

www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/swapredictive/swaoutlooks/daily/outlook-daily.htm

R3 FF

I can't ever remember one.

AL

Thanks J. Ab.

[Oh yeah, now you probably won't answer me... My mouth
has gotten me in trouble before...]

My Q:
I can't find that safenet report. I get to the site and click on the ID
option, but search doesn't work for that ID number. Any
suggestions? I have read some interesting reports...

Brandy

(Thanks Ab>)

There's a difference between where I am and your remote area.

It's not about the flow of blood from a fellow firefighter that's
hazardous, it's all the other All Risk incidents we respond to.

SoCal EMT-FF

The question about hazard pay for medical emergencies was evidently extensively
discussed in chat last night. (I wasn't there.) Maybe there will be more of that tonight.
(I can't be there, except maybe late...) (Thanks for the email from someone
who was there.)

A second topic last night had to do with training required to be an instructor.

I also heard EMT Scotty popped in from Iraq. Our best to you Scotty. Thanks
for your service, Dude. Be safe.

My question about dispatchers and ICs came up because of an informal break
discussion about outsourcing and whether dispatching as a fire function is
essentially governmental or not. In my estimation, it is. Dispatchers have some
very heavy responsibilities, especially during IA. I can remember having a heavy
discussion with an A-76 specialist couple years ago and trying to describe what
dispatchers did, why it took fire knowledge and how there could be a conflict
of interest if the function was contracted out.

Mellie

Federal Agencies' Aerial Resources Are Ready for 2005 Fire Season (press release)
Preliminary results of a study on P2V airtankers show that they can be used in the upcoming fire season.

SAFENET link is on the Links page under safety. Ab.

I have just heard that anyone being paid Hazard Pay for an emergency medical firefighter response is an urban legend. It doesn't happen, even in socal.

Regarding my question about dispatchers being de facto ICs on IA. That is the policy for CDF, but not for the Forest Service. The FS duty officer has the responsibility of IC until someone gets on site. The dispatchers check with the duty officer. Even so, the dispatcher function of ordering resources is essentially governmental.

Mellie

TP,

That would be
Led Zeppelin,
Dazed and Confused,
The Song Remains the Same-Soundtrack, for the Peak Fire clip.

Music Man

I wanted to drop a quick note to your bulletin board to let you know I
appreciate all of the support and concern that was shown here for my
daughter Gina. I just recently learned of this site and would have posted
sooner would I have known. Gina was a real bright spot in my life and the
lives of others and God knows she is going to be missed intensely. She also
lived for the summer fire crew experience and after 4 years of working on
engine crews and going out on Type II pick-up crews for off-Forest
assignments, she had landed her dream job with the Union IHC. I truly
thank Dan Fiorito for giving her the chance to rookie with him. I so wish
she were there right now doing the runs and push-ups to make the cut. She
had trained very hard for the past couple months and had showed me her
progress charts almost every day. I can proudly say she was a real hard
body and know she would have made the cut. Anyway, I saw a request for a
photo to post and am sending a couple that were taken last year while she was
working on the Ochoco NF engine 3169 crew. Thank you again, fire community,
for the support you have shown and have a safe summer.

Dave Zalunardo

Gina with Saw & Gina's Smile
She is missed. Our best wishes to your family. Ab.

"In order to avoid scratching the paint on Engine 6162, the driveway at 920 Orchard Lane needed to be brushed in order to back the engine up the driveway."

Thanks to CDF for publishing the good, bad, and ugly of this report.

vfd cap'n

Today at the Six Rivers All Fire Meeting, Spanky and our Gang (of Engine Captains) wanted to know if anyone knew a reference or policy that states that firefighters responding to medical emergencies should get hazard pay. Anyone got that ref? Our guys aren't getting paid that. I'm sure one of you socal folks have the answer... Blood on hands. Sounds like a hazard to me!

Okey dokey artichoke.
How about, where is it written that dispatchers are the ICs until the first firefighter arrives on the scene? Somebody said it might be in the old Fireman's Handbook. (Am I old enough to have that RobMac? Does it go by another name?)
Thanks to our dispatchers. We couldn't do it without ya! (We were told that ICs should remember to keep their dispatchers up to speed. They can help immeasurably if you have a plan and they're clear on your commander's intent.)

I think there were other questions or comments, but need a bit to think of them...

Oh, and excellent job! Some Six Rivers NF Firefighter of the Year Awards - We're proud of you!
Jay Dillon our dozer guy from Mad River RD
Mike Gibbons from Ukonom RD
Jesse Knox from Lower Trinity RD
Paul Zurr from Smith River NRA

Oh yeah, thanks to Mad River Crew 4 for signing up for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation 52 Club. Awesome! I'll have to go see if any other crews are on the 52 Gold list.

Mellie

I just wanted to share this wonderful idea, if any others want to send flowers.

Call the Boise Best ( Flower Shop) at 208-342-4885
You can have Boise Best send them here to the Foundation at
2049 Airport Way,
Boise ID83705
and we will take them over and place them at the person's marker.

Vicki Minor

SS

Here's the report that was posted on the Novato FD server. Novato FD Cedar Report (5895K, 90 pages, very large). All of us linking to it last year may have overloaded their system. Ab.

I also posted it here in case the CDF server gets overloaded or the report is removed. CDF Cedar Incident Report, 05. Ab.

I feel that if they do rename them they should be named "McClellan IHC"

X-Hotshot

Ab.

Fighting the Biggest Fire in CA History
Notes from the Cedar Fire
by Colin Wilson

I would like to see the Cedar Fire Incident report.

SoCal CDF

Wildland Firefighter Foundation, thanks for giving a wildland firefighter
statue to Steve Rucker's parents. You do so much to heal the hurt.

Resident

Resident, you did that just right. Here's another picture from last year. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation rep presenting the bronze statue to members of the Novato Fire Department Station. Ab.

Original Ab.

www.marinij.com

Someone has to get blamned...

MG

Is the report online anywhere? The CDF spokesman apparently says no comment, the report stands on its own. That may be well and good as a response to the Public, but are trainers folding this incident into "Lessons Learned" for firefighters? On interface fires, we need those lessons learned. Ab.

noname

This law, which modifies existing law, requires persons subject to fire hazards (described in the statute) to remove all brush, flammable vegetation, or combustible growth that is located within 100 feet from the occupied dwelling or occupied structure, or building or structure, as applicable, or to the property line, or at a greater distance if required by state law, or local ordinance, rule, or regulation.

The law authorizes the Director of Forestry and Fire Protection to authorize the removal of vegetation not consistent with these and related requirements. The law also authorizes the Director to place a lien on the building, structure, or grounds for the expense of the removal of that vegetation, as specified.

Additionally, the law requires a special certification upon new construction or rebuilding of an occupied dwelling or occupied structure damaged by fire in a very high fire hazard severity zone to be presented to the insurer providing the construction insurance coverage.

Lobotomy

AL

Rucker's death led to new precautions
Steve Rucker died in the 2003 firestorm in SoCal, the Cedar Fire.

"At the same time, we were just told that most likely we will not do any fire fighting at all if there is a fire in our area of responsibility, that we would be there too back up our "real" firefighting crew and most likely be providing scene security."

Who are the real firefighting crews you would be backing up or providing security to? Does your municipal water department have firefighting crews? If so does the water department have an Incident Qualification System and are they signers to any agreements with a wildland agency? You used the word "our" firefighting crew so I'm a little confused about the water departments role in wildland fire suppression. If this is the Bull Run watershed the only agencies that have wildland fire suppression responsibilities are ODF, USFS and the local fire department provides protection to improvements within the watershed.

Oliver

HCA

Please ask ab to forward on the email/give you my
address. (Thanks ab!)

My first choice would be Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd.
Second choice would be Metallica... Fuel for Fire.

Oliver

Readers, please note that we have a new sponsor for theysaid - The Supply Cache. Jim Felix was our earliest and has been our website's staunchest supporter throughout the years. Since we began offering classified ads and banners to help cover costs at theysaid, he's been there with his business. His banner has been on the Links page since "Day One" of banner sponsorships. He's also on the Board at the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. I know he believes in the wildland firefighter community, professionalism, networking, connectivity. He walks the walk. Jim, the firefighter and businessman, is a class act, folks. Jim, we appreciate you. Thanks for all you do. The Abs.

I have worked in law enforcement, and have alot of training in allied public safety disciplines, including Hazmat and medical first responder, but I've never had a single class in firefighting of any type, and never really had an interested in it - until now. Now, after doing some reading and spending a good part of the day on your website, I am very intrigued with the thought of Wildland Firefighting.

At the same time, we were just told that most likely we will not do any fire fighting at all if there is a fire in our area of responsibility, that we would be there too back up our "real" firefighting crew and most likely be providing scene security.

While I understand that that function needs to be carried out, and that we are the logical people to do it, I still want to fight the fire! I've never in my life been interested in this line of work, and I know very little about it other than what I've read on this website today.

Here is my problem - I make decent money and have good benefits with the city. I looked at the Forest Service fire jobs and saw that even the "permanent" positions were all seasonal...... and I have a family. The city fire department doesn't get involved with wildland firefighting hardly at all, so that is not a good option.

So....if I want to pursue this further than what little I'll be doing for the city, I'll most likely have to go elsewhere.....I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions they might be willing to share with me.

I have a TON of allied training, but none is in firefighting. I've been through the entire ICS series and am close to completing a degree in Emergency Management. My interest is more being involved in operations and NOT in management.....

Any suggestions or advice anyone could offer I would greatly appreciate.

Dwight911

TP, if we could find one or more bands willing to do a legal "cover" of some songs to go with video fire clips, which songs would we want? How long should they be? Ab.