Willy-N

Duane

Eagle 1, 2, 3

Todd

Yeah, I'll bet and those Supes haven't seen their 20s in some years. Ab.

viejo

Nothing hidden in how the Blossom Complex of lightning-caused fires are being managed and fought. Good progress is being made.

The fires are burning inside the Wild Rogue Wilderness -- in the mountains near the Wild and Scenic Rogue River -- some of the nastiest, most rugged mountain goat, fire country in the world. Blossom Complex Fire Info Site with map. (Luckily, life and property are not immediately at risk.) The fires are being fought aggressively but because of inaccessible terrain, lines are indirect. This complex of fires has top priority in the nation for resources and equipment, thus the numbers you mention. Here's one bit of info that shows how rugged the terrain is and how difficult to access: several 20 to 40 person jet boats are under contract to ferry groundpounders upriver. They're working round the clock. After arriving at the river drop point, it's still a 2 hour hike in. Lotsa tired 20-year-olds out there earning whatever is their due. Ab.

Dick, what's the plan on the bricks and why the holdup?

A Brick Purchaser

http://swo.odf.state.or.us/

Doc

As for vegetation: The Monument was carefully landscaped to demonstrate the diversity of fuels within the overall Great Basin ecosystem. There are (were) smaller range type plants near the entrance and larger ones as you walked along the Monument walks. In addition there have been significant symbolic donations like the mon (not moon) tree. It was given by Charlotte Larson to honor the link with the national women's aviator group. If anyone remembers, this group "the 99s" includes Amelia Earhart - Charter member - and other women pioneers in aviation, Deanne Schulman, first woman smokejumper and hotshot, among them. That tree may not make it. Damn shame.

As for vision: The upswelling original push for the Monument came from the grass roots - the interagency rank and file - and worked its way up. It had a HUGE interagency push. It was created for ALL wildland firefighters and the people who support them across the nation.

My personal opinion: Someone person got their tail feathers in a bunch over some personal power thing and spread a lot of garbage around at NIFC about the Monument belonging too much to the families who have lost kids and spouses. A NIFC higher up reacted to the threat/control message. This kind of unintentional poisoning process is not uncommon with both small-minded people who feel under appreciated and those who get nervous and try to control situations. In any case, someone higher up hired the company that made the drastic changes that resulted in the current "down to mineral soil" look of the Monument.

The Monument in the past and in original vision has been a place we can all come together and find PEACE regardless if agency, contractor, or vollie. People support each other, celebrate our firefighting profession, reaffirm principles of safety and dedication to training and the work we do and some people work through their grief (which also reduces lawsuits against the government). I personally think that the BLM person in charge of unilaterally mandating the changes is sending a clear message that "this is BLM land" and "we will control it" while saying "nothing is to happen here for the next 2 years" and "no bricks will be set" etc, etc, (ie, let me first move on from this job I'm in). Ever hear of shooting yourself in the foot?

My appreciation to "The ghost in the works" for your analogy.
My appreciation to those with big hearts, an inclusive style and the interagency vision.
Thanks to the Abs who make this forum possible.

Oldest Dog Barking

Yer welcome. Ab.

However, Mollysboy, the question isn't "what have you done in the past and what have you given up", but "what are you doing now"?

Tahoe Terrie

With regard to the previous condition of the Wildland Firefighter Monument, looking at the pictures there were some great metaphors to be found regarding the over all state of the profession.

Like firefighters up to their ears in tall grass- which could be interpreted to be extreme fuel loadings, overwhelming red tape, decreasing budgets, increasing demands, and the looming demographic shift which threatens to destroy our continuity of safe operations. The monument is art as well as a tribute. As the fuel loading, loss of organizational memory and loss of experienced personnel overshadows the wildland fire profession, like the weeds in Boise have covered the monuments of those who have given the last full measure of devotion, we are forced to revisit the basics of who we are and why we were organized so long ago.

I believe that the wildland fire profession in the US is still one of the premiere fire services in the world. We have learned a great deal about the dynamics between fire and the North American landscape. We are incredibly effective at what we do. We need never lose sight of that. We do need to gain a better understanding of the political and social context in which we practice our craft. We need to embrace new realities and never forget the things that work well.

Like the weeds in Boise, we need to cut back the political fog, organizational malaise and personal complacency which threatens to choke the essence of who we are and what we do. Relevancy requires work in the political world of government service, each of us needs to get involved to make the system work.

My two cents...

The ghost in the works

Well said. Ab.

Mellie

Does anyone know the decision process, politics, issues behind what happened at the Monument at NIFC? Did all this happen because someone in charge wishes they didn't have to deal with it? because NIFC will be moving to DC? because someone got political? threatened somehow? Is this about big or little egos? Is it about not liking the vegetation? Was it simply malicious? Is it one person or several? Is it Murphy's law and hiring a heavy-handed lumberjack "landscaper"?

Like Mollysboy I think stereotyping is not the way if there's a better one. It's easy to brand some "GROUP at NIFC" as the bad guys. Well, I have a number of friends there who are good and caring people and who have lifted a pulaski to help. Can we unravel what part is played by exactly what players and why? Then we might know who to write or who to mention when we write congresspeople.

Tahoe Terrie

While I'm not AT Northern Utah, I do fight fire in Northern Utah and
like to keep a close tab on things. I look at really good sites, like
Southwestern Area and Western Great Basin, and others, and just wish we
had anything close to similar. But Kudos to those sites.

Desert Rat

Friend:

Thank you!

thanks

Nate

I hope he's recovering well. Ab.

Desert Rat.

Are you at Northern Utah? Ab.

...."Another thought for our younger readers out there.......

Keep in mind, once you have been given (issued) a task book, you have 3 years to have it completed. Also, to maintain currency, you have to have performed that specific position within 5 years for non-aviation jobs and 2 years for aviation positions. " ....

The 310-1 Wildland and Prescribed Fire Qualifications System Guide sets the basic National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) standard. Agencies can require more restrictive (additional training for positions , etc) standards for their own folks, but cannot have lesser standards for NWCG certified positions.

The current (2000 - the one in place now) 310 - 1 says, on page A-7:

"It is the responsibility of the trainee to:
5. Complete the PTB within a three-year time limit. This is three years from the time the first task is evaluated until the task book is completed. Otherwise, the trainee must begin the process anew."

The clock starts ticking from the date of the first evaluation, NOT initiation of the task book. This has some problems; like, how long after training is that person's knowledge and skills up to snuff anyway? Ostensibly the person could go for 10 or more years with an initiated task book that had no tasks evaluated and they would still have 3 years to complete it after the first task evaluation is documented. Now, I don't know of anyone managing task books in that way, but by the 310-1 it would be possible. The draft for the new 310-1 may resolve some of that, if the task book is initiated fairly promptly after all prerequisite training is completed.

The new draft (April 2005 - not in place at the moment) 310-1 is a little more complicated, it says on page 18:

Position task books have a limited time in which they can be completed:
A PTB is valid for three years from the day it is initiated. Upon documentation of the first task in the PTB, the three-year time limit is reset from that date. If the PTB is not completed in three years from the date of the PTB initiation (or first task being evaluated) the PTB will no longer be valid. A new PTB may be initiated, but all current qualification standards will then apply.

For maintaining currency both versions basically say:

For the positions identified in this guide, the maximum time allowed for maintaining currency is three (3) years for air operations and dispatch positions and five (5) years for all others. "

Though the current one (2000) says specifically "expanded dispatch".

Thanks, sign me: Paul Fieldhouse

On the condition of the F/F's memorial in Boise, well, it finally got to me and I couldn't hold back any longer. These folks that are honored there deserve equal treatment to the solders buried in Arlington. They gave the supreme sacrifice to protect life, property and the public lands that most of us hold dear to our heart. I e-mailed Sen. Boxer of CA asking for her support to do something about this travesty. If the Washing Monument, Lincoln Memorial, Mount Rushmore or The Fallen F/F's Memorial in Emmitsburg, etc ever fell into a state of disrepair that this site did, heads would roll. I asked her to do what she could to try and keep this site from ever again looking like it does now. The F/F's that are remembered there deserve more. I don't think it is something that volunteer labor should take care of, although I appreciate those that did. I feel the Volunteer labor that is found in the Firefighting force of America should be enough to offset any cost towards the upkeep of this site. How much do the F/F's of America ( paid and vollies ) have to give before something is given in return ? Enough of my rant, Thx AB for letting me go.

Be safe out there, EVERYONE comes back.

danfromord

We will pledge a dollar a mile for the run. Hope more people join up.

In regard to the monument it looks like someone was p.o. ed at having
to do the maintenance, so they screwed it up for spite. Am I wrong?

KB

Someone at NIFC hired some maintenance people to do the job up special. I don't think maliciousness, just failed to attend to detail or sensibility. I may be wrong. Ab.

I was hoping that someone in the FIRE COMMUNITY could help me find some work in the WILDLAND FIRE area. The scenario is; I will have a bachelors in Fire Science in two years, however I will be 49 years young -- what kind of a job can I get without passing the pack test! I am really interested in all aspects of wildland firefighting -- to include base camp operations.

Thanks.
Macomb

KD

ROFLMAO. You guys just made my day! Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Area of Concern: Firefighter Safety

Distribution: Geographic Area Wide

Discussion: The effects of the wet June on fuel moistures has been negated by the warm and windy weather that has occurred over the last two weeks. Whereas June precipitation was 100-200% of normal, July thus far is running less than 20% of normal over many areas. Dead fuel moistures have dried quickly and 1000-hour fuel moistures and energy release components are approaching or exceeding the 90th percentile over much of the region. This, coupled with the above average growth of grasses and shrubs, will lead to abundant available fuel once the understory vegetation cures, which has already begun in many areas.

So far the fire season has been slow to start in much of the Northern Rockies. This is partly due to the excessive greenup that occurred and the lack of lightning over the majority of the geographic area. Don't expect this to continue as the weather outlook for the next week calls for hot temperatures and low humidities. The effects of the long-term drought are still with us.

Fire Behavior Concerns to Firefighters and the Public:
· Expect fine fuels to ignite easily and fires to move rapidly, especially in valley locations, south aspects, and on steep slopes
· Expect heavy fuel loading that will lead to intense fire behavior. This will result in fires with a high resistance to control. Large fuels are already showing complete consumption on recent fires.
· Expect continuous fuels. The growth that occurred due to the wet spring will support fire growth in areas that typically wouldn't burn in past years.
· Ladder fuels are beginning to show signs of moisture stress and will allow fires to climb into the crowns. This will lead to many embers starting spot fires.
· Predicted hot temperatures with low humidities will result in high probability of ignition for new starts as well as spot fires.
· Anticipate fires to remain active in thermal belts.

Tactics:
· Ensure good anchor points. Direct attack is still the best strategy in most of the Northern Rockies fuel types. Keep one foot in the black.
· Utilize water wherever possible. The large fuels will be difficult to extinguish without it.
· Anticipate flame lengths when determining safety zones.
· Keep LCES at the forefront with particular attention given to lookouts. Undetected spot fires could spread quickly during the heat of the day.

CW

I was through Boise yesterday coming off an assignment in the south land. After reading the ongoing discussion I took a trip along the walk of the monument at NIFC and took some photos. I was amazed at the over reaction and lack of any kind of understanding that was exhibited by those who did the " Maintenance work" . Someone should be reprimanded or maybe beaten. People go there and Reflect, Pray, Cry, Honor etc. Look at the attached photos, the wing was broken off an angel, Things broken and scattered and all but the trees weed-whacked to an inch of the ground. The level of disrespect was unacceptable to say the least. These small objects left behind are coated in the tears and sorrows of many people and to be handled so recklessly was wrong.

Agencies and bureaucracies tend to be cold at the hart. The people in them mostly good hearted, but frozen by the processes, rules and committees. I believe that was some of the reason for the creation of the WFF in the first place. To help fill the cold spot in the heart of the fire agencies in regards to our fallen. I do not know the answer here but something cold has gone too far. I would not want to be the person who drives that little truck ( see pics)

It would be better to fireline the markers and put some RX fire to it. Maybe I will write a burn plan this winter when I have more time. I know all those remembered there would like that better too.

Long Distance Traveler

Here are the Monument images that Long Distance Traveler sent in: www.wildlandfire.com/docs/memorial/boise.htm Ab.

KW

Thanks for any info you can give us.
conrad5@jrec.net

Hi Conrad, Horrible, well, I don't know about that. It's probably much harder for nearby residents than for wildland firefighters. For our forests and rangelands, fire is a natural part of the cycle. For us, minimizing the bad aspects of fire is our job.

To find out about that particular fire:
If there is no reply here (many firefighters are off fighting fire), you might try calling the National Forest nearest the fire. You can start here: www.fs.fed.us/. If they can tell you the name and if it's occurred within the last 5-6 years you could download the archived list of fire stats and look up that particular one at this valuable database: http://famweb.nwcg.gov/. Having name and year helps in finding stats from online records. There are .exe files by year. Info is there if you're willing to search through it. Ab.

Carbon monoxide may have disoriented firefighter S. Rucker
www.signonsandiego.com

SoCal FF

Gayle,

I believe what you are looking for can be found at www.aircomsys.com
Part # ACS998-3

Kurt

Fireman's Wife

Take a look at the Hot List Forum, It was reported there yesterday. Broken foot was all. It's easy to register if you haven't yet. Ab.

I noticed some of the teams that might have alerted members on news and notes have started posting on the hot list forum when they get called up. Ab.

Hi all,

It's been a rough couple months here in the vicinity of St George. Here are some totals as listed in the local paper the Spectrum. www.thespectrum.com It feels like we have been out more than we have been home everytime mother nature flings lightning our way but our dept wouldn't have it any other way :) Hopefully when my film gets developed there will be some good shots.

The Sunrise Complex Fire, 10 miles north of St. George, consists of seven fires that have burned 17,827 acres. This fire is 30 percent contained with no homes or structures threatened at this time.

The Dammeron Complex Fire, 12 miles north of St. George, has burned 18,368 acres and is 70 percent contained. Crews on Sunday continued to "mop up" the fire. No significant spreads are expected.

The Tank Complex Fire, about 30 miles South of the Utah/Arizona border, has burned 50,540 acres and is 20 percent contained. More than 400 firefighters are working this fire.

Year to date figures according to www.Utahfireinfo.gov is

558 fires burning a total of 287,634 acres (191 human caused, 31,189 acres) ( 367 lightning caused, 256,445 acres)
c-ya

ScuffyJ

File Code: 6730 Date: July 23, 2005
Route To: 5720

Subject: Preliminary (24-hour - after the accident) Briefing

To: Jack Troyer, Regional Forester, Intermountain Region

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
Location: North Vas Vegas

Date of occurrence: July 21, 2005

Time of occurrence: 1711 Hours

Team leader: Ruth Monahan, Forest Supervisor, Sawtooth NF

Mission: Reconnaissance, Fire detection

Activity: Humboldt-Toiyabe (H-T) NF

Number injured: Three

Number of fatalities: None

Property damage: Rockwell 680FL Commander Destroyed

Narrative: Aircraft N7UP was dispatched to the Spring Mountains National Recreation of the H-T NF for a fire reconnaissance mission due to lightning storms that just passed through within the past 24 hours.

Shortly after takeoff from the North Las Vegas airport, the aircraft impacted the ground approximately 180 yards off the departure end of the runway.

All three (pilot, ATGS and ATGS Trainee) were taken to local hospital, Pilot (intensive care) and Trainee remain in the hospital recovering from injuries. The ATGS was released from the hospital at approximately 2200 hrs on the day of the accident.

NTSB is on scene conducting the ongoing investigation with assistance from engine and airframe technical representatives (Air Safety Investigators) and FS/DOI assistance.

The National Aviation Safety Manager delegated the investigation to the Region.

/s/ Ruth M. Monahan
RUTH M. MONAHANTeam Leader

cc: Regional Safety Manager

Hmmmm, I was wondering if you were prepared. Best check with your server to make sure yer not going to be charged for so many visitors. Ab.

But please remember when using ICS designators that ICS, a national system, uses 5 letters, not just 3: for example, BDF by itself could mean several different Forests. When it's shown as MT-BDF, it is clearly the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest in Montana.

Since "TheySaid" is read in all 50 States, the Canadian provinces and in Europe and Australia, we can help each other better understand "where the action is" by specifying the State designator too.

Thanks,
Aberdeen

Good point. Ab.

Thanks for posting my message. But I think you
might have gotten WYS Quint Gidley confused with Phil
Lind-a BLM jumper who was impaled down in nevada.

Gidley was injured recently - late friday/saturday
probably. His name appeared on the smokejumper status
report on sunday in the notes section, with a notation
to "read the fact sheet". other than that, no details
as to the extent of his injury.

I'm curious as he was an old hotshot buddy of mine.

Thanks for the help,

JerseyBoy

I thought you meant Phil. I haven't heard about another injured jumper. Ab.

You are one of those older dudes, right?

Mellie

Just an update: Ron was released from the hospital with cuts and
bruises only. Marge is still in the hospital recovering from a fracture
and a possible spinal injury. The pilot was a relief pilot (name and
current status being withheld at the request of the family and
employer). The current contract for the aircraft is held by the Nez
Perce National Forest and the aircraft is based out of Grangeville,
Idaho, although it was on assignment at North Las Vegas when the
accident occurred. The investigation is on-going. We also send wishes
for a speedy recovery to those involved. Hurry home, guys, we miss you!

- R1 employee

I don't know if you answer these types of questions, but I thought I
would try anyway- I am a secondary FF who goes out as HECM. My forest
fire cache does not have any flight helmets so I have one ordered from our
regional cache. I would like to get one of the extra cables that would
allow me to plug my Bendix king handheld radio into my flight helmet
microphone. I have seen other HECM's using them. No one seems to know what
the cable/adapter thing is called or what number to order. We ordered
something last year and it was wrong, we ordered something this year and it
was wrong again. Even the fire cache folks don't seem to know anything. Do
you know anything about this stuff?

Thanks,
Gayle

LP

Tahoe Terrie

Pigs are gonna die: means that there's a big fire, with a big base camp.
With pork served every meal, it takes a lot of dead pigs to supply
meat to the camp.

--elkski

Added it: Funny fire names and terms page. Ab.

As I recall hearing on Friday or Saturday, Phil's still in the hospital in UT in intensive care. They wanted to transfer him to a hospital at home, but it will have to wait as the UT docs want to keep him longer to be on the safe side. As you can imagine, threat from infection is high whenever you have this kind of injury and intestinal surgery is performed. They're being extremely careful.

The Wildland Firefighter Foundation will try to pick up his air fare when he can fly and probably some other expenses to help sustain him as well. Those smokejumpers take good care of their members. Prayers/good thoughts for healing are welcome. Ab.

Red To Green;

Tell you daughter that when the Gold Bond quits working you have to get out
the Bag Balm.

Of course you can't be really sure the GB isn't working until you have gone
through all 3 colors of GB: Yellow, Green and Blue.

Backburnfs

Ditto on the healing wishes. Ab.

ATGS Ron Rucker from R6 was an occupant in a ASM that crashed in Las Vegas, NV (7/21/05). It was the 7UP beachcraft out of Pendleton, OR that we use frequently. All three were in serious condition... more info can be seen at
www.kvbc.com.

In response to your request on sand tables, I have been on two different ones, but they both covered the total aspect of a "fire".

One table was made of wood and had a river and highway painted on it. The other was a metal box with a couple of 5 gallon buckets of sand/ dirt poured in it.

The instructors who were doing the scenario had different colored bottles of chalk. Blue for water, red for fire. There were also mini trucks to represent the different class of fire trucks, cotton balls to represent smoke and one even had real pieces of pine tree to be the forest. There were also radios (turned off) to get use to talking on the radio.

There were different scenarios of IA from structure protection to digging line around a 2 acre fire to calling in bucket drops.

It will give everybody who does it a completely different aspect of what is going on with a fire. It will really make you think and it will make you sweat if you have not done it before.

At the end we discussed what could have been done differently and what each person would have done differently.
If you have anymore questions ask AB for my e-mail and I will go into greater detail of what was done.

Cris

I've never known George to P'Off people. Always smiling... He always has had such a nice sweet personality... for being a wildland firefighter. Happy retirement George. Ab.

You been away a while BB? Ab.

Yellows- nomex shirt

Swampy walk- also known as "hotshot walk" The very odd wide stance
variation of walking because the FF is suffering from "hotshot butt"
(also known as monkey butt). The Goldbond isn't working and the FF
doesn't want any body parts to touch. (Her digital camera video was
quite amusing to watch and see the swampy walk in action.)

Post my name as Red turned to Green

She gonna send that clip in? I put them on the Funny fire names and terms page. Ab.

JS

Thanks Red Hawk, people interested can view and bookmark it. Ab.

United States Department of Interior
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Navajo Region
Navajo Region Human Resources – RM. 240
301 W. Hill Avenue
P.O. Box 1060
Gallup, New Mexico 87305-1060
Telephone: (505) 863-8211

They will be able to point you in the right direction.

AZ Trailblazer

Kenneth Perry pledges $1.00 per mile.

More later.
Kenneth C. Perry

Great idea KCP. We'll post updates from the road. Ab.

Thanks Polly, send 'em in. Ab.

Hickman is headed to Bear Country (NMAirBear that is) New Fire.

Just look for the guy wearing yellow and green.

All these messages about who is going where. WhoooHooo. Have fun. Be Safe. Ab.

Hellroaring Fire, a small private contractor in northwest Montana, is seeking a qualified engine boss to run a Type 5 engine out of Polson, MT. See contact info on the Jobs Page.

Ab.

Will do. Ab.

the Clarify-er

video report: www.kvbc.com/

Canyon

Sarah Larson ( Matt Taylor's mom)

PS. There will be a memorial ceremony tomorrow (7/22) at the
helibase in Indianola. Among other things, they plan to break ground for
a memorial to Jeff Allen and Shane Heath.

Anne, many thanks for the feedback. Please thank all who participated. Ab.

Looking at this link to Tacoma Library and found some great articles on
Forest Fires of the early 1900's

http://search.tpl.lib.wa.us/unsettling/

Go to that site and look for

NATURAL CATASTROPHES

Backburnfs

Thanks.
Leland
Sacred4s@hotmail.com

http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/

TC

Thanks TC. Ab.

viejo

Hmmmm, from what I've heard, I don't think the SJs are assigned. Somebody want to check who's supposed to be accountable? Ab.

We were in Boise Monday, my husband had been at the monument on the 8th and he said it needed a prescribed burn. It is a mess after seeing the pictures I am angry as I feel it is very disappointing it is disrespectable to the firefighters living and dead and their families. We would be glad to work on the monument at anytime. When you can't even see the statues or the walkway and how are you suppose to sit on the benches? Let me know what we can do to get this changed....

KB

RE Gazner packs

West Valley FS BLM Alturas Resource Area phone no UNK at present
Dry Creek FS relied on them heavily 1991 1992 when I was there
I have no photos
Give them a call, someone would have a digital camera
I’d like to mention names but the FOIA type crap exists
Contact those folks, best bunch I ever worked with and I think they would provide a great assist

Leo

The legal beagles, CA and fed, are reviewing it before release. They've had it quite a while but they also have other things to review, I am told. Ab.