www.nfc.usda.gov/personal/

Thanks - Fire Bug

Later, this came in...
Ab, answered my own question...

USDA’s National Finance Center shuts down in face of Katrina

www.gcn.com/vol1_no1/technology-policy/36824-1.html

FireBug

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2005/hr408.htm Ab.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT THE FEDERAL WILDLAND FIRE SERVICE ASSOCIATION AT (916) 515-1224 OR FWFSAlobby@aol.com

IT'S YOUR FUTURE

Cedar Fire:

http://archive.hpwren.ucsd.edu/Photos/20031026/
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/Cedar/Images/
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/Cedar/

Last week:

http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/~hwb/20050824/

For those of you who are called to help, and I have no doubt many will be, stay safe ya'll.

There are many hazards.
BEWARE of red ants, water moccasins (rattle snakes, coral snakes), alligators, mosquitoes with West Nile virus (take DEET), humid heat, lack of drinking water and food, lack of sanitation, downed live power lines, bubbling broken gas lines, underwater hazards that can snag a boat engine, HAZMAT on the surface of the water, burning buildings, dead bodies floating, wildlife, pets, cows, other animals including zoo animals, unstable buildings, hazard trees.

The size of this disaster is just hitting us. My personal thanks to the Fin and Feather folks with their flat boats, the Coast Guard and other SAR folks and EMTs, and to those volunteering their pirogues and other flat-bottomed vessels. For some people out there survival is a matter of getting help in the next 12 hours or breaking free of attics with rising waters. We starting to see on the news what's happening in New Orleans, Biloxi, Mobile. We don't see what's happened with the 25-30 foot storm surge in Plaquemines Parish, Saint Bernard Parish, Chalmette, Slidell, Bay St Louis, Pass Christian. I have real fears that the death toll will be astronomically high when all are tallied. I heard from a friend that a large part of Plaquemines Parish has gone back to the Gulf.

I thank the collective emergency response family for coming to help in our time of need. I hope good plans are made and the effort is coordinated. Ya'll take care, hear. God bless.

DeSotoNF

The National Interagency Coordination Center is working with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to support Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. Emergency Support Function #4 is staffed at the Regional Response Coordination Centers in Atlanta, GA and Denton, TX. Two Type 1 Incident Management Teams have been assigned. One team will establish a base camp at Port Allen, LA and the other team will be at the logistics staging area in Meridian, MS. A third Type 1 Incident Management Team will establish a base camp at Stenis NASA site in MS.

FYI...

Todd

Thanks for passing the word on Ken's run in firecamp! The pledge list is increasing as run time nears! Please pledge!

Ab.

You are right...........It is highly unlikely you/I will ever see a "national" IM Team on an ODF fire. Why? The landowners (Private, Industrial, Contract and others) pay an assessment to the Oregon Department of Forestry and several Fire Protection Associations to provide fire protection services on their property. When there is a fire on their lands they want/expect to see the Department, that they are paying, providing the Incident Management on their lands. ODF makes every effort to meet those expectations.

ODF has 3 Incident Management Teams, although it is rare for all 3 teams to be managing fires at the same time, it has happened in the not too distant past. I suppose under that scenario you could see a "federal" IM Team (most likely a Type II) managing a fire on ODF protected lands. However, there would be a strong ODF presence with single resource OH involved in many of the operations positions.

OrFF (Not to be confused with Oregon FF - 2 different individuals)

CAJON PASS - A crash involving a boat-towing pickup truck and a fire engine shut down Interstate 15 Sunday and injured five firefighters responding to a brush fire. The collision occurred at 1:26 p.m. on the northbound side of the freeway at the base of the Cajon Pass....

A U.S. Forest Service firefighter, Jason Megowen, was airlifted to Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. After regaining consciousness, he appeared fine, said Forest Service spokeswoman Ruth Wenstrom. Another Forest Service firefighter, Travis Thogmartin, and three county firefighters Chad Patterson, Don Hulquist and Juan Deleon suffered minor injuries, she said. One of the county firefighters was thrown into oncoming traffic, said county fire Battalion Chief Gary Bush.

See full story: www.sbsun.com/news/ci_2981894

From the hotlist forum and appears to be true:

ALRAY Incident, is the correct spelling, an engine was struck,
two FF's transported. Reported to be doing well.

Ab.

JS

Hi JS, nice pic, but we would need permission. Ab.

SoCal CDF

"The Marietta Mobilization Center is being opened today, and the Red and Blue Type 1 IMTs will be reporting there tomorrow by 1800. The 2 Logistics Management Teams (LMTs) currently in place are being relocated: Custer’s LMT-A is moving to Mississippi tomorrow, while Prevey’s LMT-B is moving to Tallahassee. An additional LMT has been ordered for Alexandria, LA. FEMA is placing an order for 5 Type 1 Crews, and more requests are anticipated. A long-term Planning Team is operating in Orlando.

2 ERT-As are set up – one each in Alabama and Florida, while the USFS is also staffing an ESF4 function at the RRCC in Atlanta (Days – L. Howard and J. Caffin, Nights – S. Weaver and S."

Jackson

I haven't seen such web pages before... More to learn.

Implication... It ain't real to me until it hits the web???

Mellie

Congratulations to the Men and Women who corralled those incidents.

Both are excellent examples of good aggressive fire fighting.

viejo

The weather has cooperated up until now... However, neither of those fires are reported as completely contained and there's a RED FLAG WARNING for this afternoon. Although they are mopping up, there could still be rollout that gets fanned by the winds in some of the steep areas. Be Safe. Maintain situational awareness. Ab.

The Deer Creek Fire (Near Cave Junction OR) is under unified command --

State of Oregon www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/Conflagration_Info.shtml
and Anderson's Type I PNW Incident Command Team 3,

but in addition to that, it has been declared a FEMA fire...
www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=4785

Hmmm, that must be a first. Is this suggestive of things to come?

Speaking of FEMA, my best wishes to those facing the hurricane in New Orleans
and the surrounding Gulf Coast area. Camille was pretty bad and we didn't have a
direct hit on N.O. on that one. Katrina has sustained winds of 175 mph now (Category 5).
The levees are unlikely to survive the storm surges. There aren't too many highways
heading north or west. For sure the causeway across Lake Ponchartrain will be
closed in high winds. Recipe for disaster... LCES! BE SAFE ALL!

Mellie

www.pstramway.com/cams-weather/cams-detail.html

CDF Jake

Looks like it's being managed almost exclusively with private resources. 725 of 872
personnel are private with 70 state of Oregon overhead.

SoCal CDF

OR firefighter

www.nwccweb.us/information/fire_info.asp Ab.

Tahoe Terrie

Hello,

First wanted to say thanks to GIS Girl for the maps. Pretty cool, and much better than the hand drawn one.

I am out of the loop right now in a little town on Lake Chapala, Mexico called San Antonio. Wish I could say I was on vacation. Unfortunately My Mother passed away Monday morning. I am still training high in the central mountains. Nothing like Thunder and lightning inside the bowl of an extinct volcano. The tropical humidity is something I'm surely not used to, either.

Anyway.....Tony D, I had planned on getting ahold of you when I came back from Reno for Mandatory days off. I have no cell coverage here, and unfortunately your number is in my phone sitting on the counter at home. If you've got some interesting stuff, you can get my E-mail address from Ab.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE PLEDGED. IT SEEMS TO BE SPEEDING UP AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE DAY.

See ya,
KCP

Sorry about your mom. I'd be happy to pass any messages along. Folks make those pledges. Ken Perry/WFF Benefit Ab.

Hobo

SoCal CDF

You can see it here http://newweb.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/ click Eureka then animation and look for the little rising column at the Shasta and Tahama Counties' shared border. Ab.

I read a few days ago about Ernie Johnson's passing on. My eyes welled
up with tears as I read about the people I knew who were there to meet the
plane in Shelton and what was said. I echo all those and add that the
world and fire fighting community was a better place by his presence in it,
and a poorer place in his absence. I worked for 9 seasons on the Quilcene
Ranger District, and started as an 18 year old firefighter the same year
and age Ernie did. I remember burning slash with him, working on helitack,
fighting fires with him, learning from him. The longer I work in this
agency, the more I come to appreciate people like Ernie, a person of
integrity, a great fireman, good teacher, good leader. I am a witness to
a part of his legacy and am proud to be a part of it. thank you Ernie, you
are missed.

Lance Honda

You betcha the practice of not being at the dispatch location and using an address as a shill was a big problem and still might be a problem in some areas. I personally think those type of violations or misleading actions should result in severe punishment... maybe a trip down the Rogue River with Viejo? I can see your point that this latest round of actions for permit failures may have a more positive effect by keeping everyone honest and move the industry forward as a safer and more professional resource. In a position to see the documentation, between the scammers and those caught in the bureaucratic permitting process, I guess I didn't want to see otherwise good contractors to be lumped in with those contractors that outright falsified dispatch locations in an attempt to gain more work. Not complying with the contract is wrong.. and that's the bottom line. Thanks ab for the clarification and the comments you included in my post.

Oliver

Catching up on They Said, just got back from the Blossom Complex. Toughest combination of terrain & fuels of any fire I ever saw. Two weeks ago, I put our chances of hooking it at about 50 percent. Containment acreage was about 15,000 acres.

Viejo, Are you still flapping about Blossom? Most wise They Said posters admit when they are wrong and eat crow if they deserve it. If you still feel this fire has been a boondoggle, I'll make you an offer: I'll give you $100 if you can travel on foot from Rogue River Ranch to Hanging Rock in three days time. Google up a topo map of the Wild Rogue Wilderness and scope it out. It is only about three miles as the crow flies, a mile a day should be easy, eh? See all those squiggly lines on the topo map? You'll be glad to know that most of the Wild Rogue Wilderness is covered with dense 15' brush and old growth Doug Fir and Cedar. The brush will give you something to cling to as you develop a better understanding that a slow ROS doesn't mean squat in that topography.

The FAA Administrator, That is the funniest damn thing I've read in awhile, I about hurt myself laughing! You have to be a pilot. I think there is a promising career ahead for you in government, you speak bureaucratic gibberish quite well.

Casey, Many of us feds appreciate your tenacity and support what you are trying to do for wildland firefighters. I don't know you personally, but I know you well enough from your postings to say that I would trust you more than OPM when it comes to doing the right thing for us. Keep slugging, keep explaining, it is nice to know that you are out there tackling these issues. We will never get what we deserve without a dedicated person leading the charge for us. Keep it up.

Julie's tribute to Ernie Johnson was touching. I didn't know Ernie but it is obvious he was well loved. It is always sad when we lose one of the good ones.

Misery Whip

I thought the FAA Administrator post was a spoof making the rounds behind the scenes, although it came in from 2 different regular, credible posters. Wow, if that's for real, we're in trouble! Ab.

I had our IQCS person try to put READ into IQCS. Would not take
it..................... It is on a hardcopy list we got as an approved
position, however it is still not in IQCS.

TC

Wow, very impressive and useful to have historical fire information. I've added this site to the maps list on the News page. (I like the WFF member # note at the bottom of your email.) Ab.

Oliver, what you say about some folks operating out of their homes may be true, but it is definitely not the whole story. Behind the scenes for the last several years we have gotten emails from a variety of people that certain OR contractors were purposefully setting up false locations to get around the "no more than an hour away" (or whatever it was) requirement. Generally such posts do not see the light of day because we can't absolutely confirm (don't have research staff to confirm) their veracity, so we're not willing to post them. That said, the discrepancy between professed resource location and actual location - sometimes tens or a hundred miles away - could have been a safety issue in some instances. And we did encourage people to go through whatever channels were available to them to make the problem known. I think we're seeing some of the results of that process. This is simply one aspect of becoming a professional and safe private sector fire force, in my opinion. When contractors who have done this understand they will now have to follow the rules, they will. This clarity of contract benefits all of us. Ab.

Here's a very brief answer...

Portal to portal will be paid when an employee, as defined, responds to an Emergency Incident and that incident exceeds 24 hrs. When we originally drafted the bill, we literally listed every conceivable response we could think of before settling for "emergency incident."

Given that prescribed burns are "planned" they would not constitute an emergency incident... unless the fire got away and started a bigger, longer incident. Of course as I've mentioned, we are working on getting hazard pay for firefighters on prescribed burns.

With respect to severity details, if an engine is sent anywhere for 60-90 days, that is not an emergency incident and thus each period away from your duty station exceeding 24 hrs would not incorporate portal to portal pay.

However, the issue deserves looking at...perhaps some type of additional per diem etc. If anyone wants to contact me personally and give me a bit of instruction on severity details I can review the issue with the FWFSA Board of Directors for guidance and perhaps develop some ideas.

Casey

JR

Thanks for bringing together the links to gather info on breaking fires. I use Hot list and post there. The GACCS are also providing more real time news & notes (good job usfs northops), I like the firemaps link on the news page too. Thanks for adding the new map showing the S OR fire last night. That was great. WildCAD is getting better but should be set up and maintained more outside of CA. I also like tuning in on the scanner list sometimes. The Redding CA scanner site tends to get shut down when a fire ignites around Shasta, but that's not surprising. What about web cams?

Anyway, thanks. Information is valuable.

Todd

You're welcome. Web cams are sometimes useful, for example the hpwren site, but it's limited to socal. If anyone has more ideas or links to suggest for any kind of fire news, let us know. Ab.

Here's the link: www.wfap.net/recruitment.html

Your reference to the GEL Drop on the Spruce Fire and the Ukiah AAB is interesting. Where was the Spruce Fire? There is no record at Ukiah AAB of dropping Gel on this Incident. By chance did you get a Tanker Tail number? It may have come out of Hollister or Columbia AAB. This is good information as with Long Term Retardants or any other product, quality control is a must in order to improve the product or the delivery method.

LW

SPRUCE (CA-LNU-5590) from wildcad. Ab.

The current rate for an AD READ is AD-5 at $24. If a trainee, then $3 dollars
less than that. (Same as for any trainee AD-5)

NOPSer

http://newweb.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/

Click Medford then click animation. It's getting dark fast, but check the plume!

R6 FF

08-24-05
Talking points regarding the Central Oregon fire crew suspensions

1. ODF suspended nine private contract fire crews Aug. 16 for failing to have Deschutes Co. business permits for their dispatch locations there.

2. We were notified of this violation of county ordinance by the Deschutes Co. Board of Commissioners.

3. In February 2005, we sent out a bid solicitation to fire crew contractors. The contractors were required to sign and return it by March 4. The document stated that they must have business permits for their dispatch locations, if so required by local governments.

4. Under the contract (Interagency Crew Agreement administered by ODF for the Pacific Northwest Wildfire Coordinating Group), a dispatch location must be a physical site (not a P.O. box) where a fire crew can assemble and be inspected. It is a place of business; therefore, local governments can require a business permit or license.

5. In mid-July, we also suspended six crews in Medford for failure to have business licenses for their dispatch locations in that city. Most of the crew contractors subsequently applied or the licenses with the city and received them in a week to 10 days. We then immediately reinstated the crews whose contractors had obtained their business licenses. (Deschutes Co. has said their processing time on a permit application is six to eight weeks or longer.)

6. The loss of the nine central Oregon crews still leaves us with more than 200 crews on contract. Barring an extreme event, such as a large-scale dry lightning storm, we think that we have an adequate number of crews to get through the season.

It is at your fingertips. This site, hit Links then hit "training and education" and you are there -
at NWCG Taskbooks. It is amazing how a little surfing can release the stress and strands of
day to day life...

Enjoy, stay safe and walk tall,
Arlo

Mellie

Thermo Gel has been used in aerial drops in Washington State on BIA fires with great success. It not only hangs on that canopy but also coated fine fuels in the forest floor when used with the proper viscosity. When the NorCal Captain said he was on the active flank and was just about hit with gel, good thing he missed us, I too ask him WHY? I have worked with the product in the past and have had it on my person repeatedly with no side effects. The fact is it was not dropped on you and you were not affected by any results of such a drop. I find it interesting that you say it "was chunky and too thick to coat the vegetation". The make up of the product does not lend itself to be "Chunky". I am also not sure what you mean by kind of weird smelling. First are you just used to the strong smell of the long term retardant when it takes your breath away? What have you been doing for the last 10 years when you have been inhaling the long term retardant? I have worked with Thermo Gel and have found the odor to be inert. I work with a group of 6 private contractors who have been trained to apply Thermo Gel and none of them are aware of your weird kind of smell situation. The comment made about the product staining is also interesting because I have personally sprayed my truck with Thermo Gel, put a blow torch to it and then rinsed it off with NO ill effects

Thermo Gel has been tested by the US Forest Service at a great expense to the company and the Forest Service has found it to be environmentally friendly and non toxic. After working with this product as well as a number of the other unapproved gel products on the market today, I have found that it is easy to work with, effective and easy to clean up. Thermo Gel did not just appear last week. Thermo Gel is the result of years of study and testing and modifications. The product has been approved by MTDC in Missoula and meets all of the forest service requirements set regarding fish, water and wildlife. These comments coming from the NorCal Captain and the guinea pig seem to be coming from someone with another agenda.

The reason the CDF is willing to use this product is because it works

The reference to Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) is an interesting one because it insinuates that Thermo Gel introduces them into the fire situation, when in fact the PAHs already exist due to the wildfire itself. If you go to the website recommended by guinea pig, you will find that PAHs are found in all foods that are grilled. and if you contact Thermo Gel directly, you will be told that the amount of PAH produced is the equivalent of a cooked piece of meat.

I agree that this is a new way of fighting fire but I ask that we just wait and see how effective it is, how safe it is, and how in the long run it will do more to protect firefighters than harm them.

Joseph P Hickey
Wildfire Defense Systems

Snapper

Photos

SoCal CDF

The Missoula center tests Foams, Retardants, and Water Additives for both environmental impact and for corrosiveness to magnesium. The CDF staff toxicologist has given the o.k. as far as impact on humans. The USFS (Missoula) has approved Thermo Gel for use, the issue is not the product or the environment, or toxicology, but the fact that the USFS does not have a policy for its use. The science is approved but not the policy. Once the policy is written, the USFS will be able to use Thermo Gel. Thermo Gel is approved for use in California and South Dakota. The material used in ThermoGel is a cousin to the material found to hold moisture in baby diapers...

f/f4

Please sign me: Oregon Rose

www.bendbulletin.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=17620

Doc

Posters have been clamoring for years that managers tighten up the permitting of fire crews and do some checking up. I wonder if Chuck Burley or one of his staff reads theysaid??? Ab.

Hmmmm, and I thought posters were fairly restrained for this time of the fire season. There certainly has been good information shared and a variety of viewpoints on issues. I know discussion is good when I find myself agreeing with one poster then another, as alternative viewpoints are argued and additional issues are raised.

As always, I thank contributors for participating with good questions, answers, information and perspectives. I learn something new almost every day. Probably for a lot of casual non-firefighter readers, a lot of this back-and-forth goes over your head... Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: AD Firefighter Association
To: AD Firefighter Association
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: ADFA Update: ADFA Board Members Meet With Idaho Delegation Staff

Dear ADFA Member:

Hugh Carson (ADFA Chair), Dick Grace (Vice-Chair), and Carl Pence (Legislative Affairs) met for 1½ hours on August 7 with representatives from 3 of the 4 Idaho Congressional Staffs

Key players were Mike Freese, Senator Craig’s Natural Resources Field Coordinator, and Layne Bangerter, Senator Crapo’s Natural Resources staffer.

Items of discussion included:

1. History of the AD Pay Authority
2. How the Authority has been used over the last two decades
3. ADFA initiatives to achieve “fair pay for job performed”
4. Agency review of the 2005 Proposed AD Pay Rates (this proposal was the one that would reduce pay $2-$7 an hour for 99% of the positions and which was rescinded due to significant negative comments from both within the agencies and externally (gubernatorial staffs, ADFA, etc.)

From our perspective, and without exaggerating, the meeting was an unqualified success. We obtained the following commitments (Mike Freese has the lead on this):

1. The Idaho delegation will “closely examine” the results of the outside third-party review of the process and procedures utilized by both the Position Evaluation and Rate Setting Working Groups of NWCG’s Interagency Business Practices Working Team that led to the 2005 Rates. OPM will be involved in this review.
2. The Idaho delegation believes the agencies are honestly working toward a solution, and just want to help them get there, including evaluation of alternative methods of obtaining supplementary incident personnel such as Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contracts.

It is our impression that Judy Carvelho’s Position Evaluation Group did a good job of evaluating and ranking all ICS positions, though in some cases the levels were perhaps one grade too low. Between this group’s output and the issuing of the rates, the process went “south” with someone or some group essentially ignoring and discarding the Position Evaluation Group’s two years of hard work, and arbitrarily setting the 2005 rates you saw in the Proposal.

As a sidelight, ADFA and the legislators’ staffs discussed the lack of Forest Service response (as required by law) to the FOIA submitted by Shari Downhill of Wildland Firefighter Magazine. This FOIA requested 5-year data on AD utilization and all written, verbal, e-mail, and telephonic records regarding the evaluation of ICS positions and the setting of the 2005 rates. There will be immediate follow-up on this FOIA.

ADFA will also be submitting a FOIA all written, verbal, e-mail, and telephonic records regarding the evaluation of ICS positions and the setting of the 2005 rates (the 5-year data will be too expensive).

Comments on the above more than welcome.

Hugh Carson
Chair, AD Firefighters Association
www.adfirefighter.org

Don't get the wrong idea, not all CDF'ers share the same view. You're absolutely right, we don't do the same things the same way- so what? What do run totals prove?

Bottom line is you guys aren't paid all that much in the first place, and if you cant go have a beer or hug your kid or do whatever you feel you need to do because of your job or assignment, THEN YOU SHOULD GET PAID FOR IT!! -any drunk monkey can figure that one out!

firecat

I added it to Engines 15 photo page. I also added two photos of the Deer IA to Fire 29, one from Mellie, one from Bard. Ab.

Brian

I put 'em on Equipment 9 photo page. Ab.

I put it on Logo 11 photo page along with the Sandia Helitack (Cibola NF, NM) logo from JA and 2 logos from Venezuelan firefighters. Ab.

Can you possibly help me? Thank you so much.

Robert

JS

		Federal Interagency Communications Center
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 20:30)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Aircraft Down 	             15
		Emergency Standby             7
		Hazmat 	                     24
		Law Enforcement            5558
		Medical Aid                 422
		Miscellaneous               914
		Prescribed Fire              18
		Public Assist               686
		Resource Order              153
		Search and Rescue            94
		Smoke Check                  12
		Structure Fire               12
		Traffic Collision           545
		Vegetation Fire             320
		Vehicle Fire                 49
		Total Incidents            8829		

"Why can't we all just get along"

I’ve got an opportunity to help prepare a portion of an upcoming fire report commissioned by the governor of California to assess how California prepares and plans wildfire management. I think this is also a great opportunity to let firefighters (who really know what is actually going on) have their say for a change.

Below is a brief description of what I am supposed to be addressing. If any of you feel moved to express your thoughts, please do (especially for numbers 3-7). They can be posted here or sent directly to me if you would like complete confidentiality (email address below). I want my report to reflect reality rather than what we usually get. In my short career as a firefighter myself, I’ve experienced a definite disconnect between what we know and what politicians and the press say. I’m tired of it.

Now’s your chance…

Rick

The questions I will be focusing on…

1. Who is directly involved in the fire planning process (CDF, USFS, local fire agencies, etc.)?
2. What other groups are involved (County Board of Supervisors, insurance agencies, developers, regional planners, etc.)?
3. What kind of coordination exists between such entities?
4. Over what time horizons are plans made?
5. What information is used to plan over the short term/long term?
6. Is climate variability and or other future changes accounted for in their plans?
7. Vulnerabilities/assumptions of fire planning over the next 50 years?

Readers, this is a really worthwhile opportunity to be heard from another direction. Rick is a strong supporter of fire and has done much to educate the public and politicians to the need for fire in chaparral. He's also a member of this community. Ab.

		Inyo National Forest
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 11:11)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Emergency Standby             1
		Law Enforcement             504
		Medical Aid                   6
		Miscellaneous               171
		Prescribed Fire               9
		Public Assist                22
		Resource Order               81
		Search and Rescue            38
		Smoke Check                  49
		Structure Fire                1
		Traffic Collision             8
		Vegetation Fire              89
		Vehicle Fire                  3
		Total Incidents             982		

Thanks Ernie's Friend for keeping us up-to-date. Thanks also to Julie and to Van B. What eloquent and meaningful tributes.
...And the circles on the surface of the pool move outward... Ab.

embt

Yep, that is a good site and a good resource. I'll bet those who keep it up-to-date know how time-consuming it is to work on photos and photo files. Ab.

I would hope folks would step back and evaluate this in terms of the skills, training and experience necessary to handle this number of complex incidents. My guess is may of these skill are in no way reflected in the current 462 Position Descriptions or performance standards. Because of that lack there is very strong case for reform of position descriptions, standards and an increase in pay to properly compensate folks for the work they are actually performing. This lack also hurts the FS as employees who gain these skills can easily market them to municipal departments at a much higher pay rate. The FS loses the skill and experience after a fairy significant investment. Staffing levels are in constant flux, crew cohesion is hurt, and in turn safety can be compromised.

		Angeles National Forest
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 07:53)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Aircraft Down                 1
		Emergency Standby             4
		Hazmat                       19
		Law Enforcement             763
		Medical Aid                 238
		Miscellaneous              1496
		Prescribed Fire              24
		Public Assist               241
		Resource Order              126
		Search and Rescue            80
		Smoke Check                  37
		Structure Fire               21
		Traffic Collision           411
		Vegetation Fire             188
		Vehicle Fire                 86
		Total Incidents            3735		

Rotor

Info on the SEAT crash was posted on the Hot List Forum yesterday. Pilot walked away with minor injuries. Quick Google News search shows this article Reno Gazette. Ab.

Blue Gel 4 and Blue Gel 6

I added them to AirTankers 19 photo page. Ab.

Extra congrats for doing it safely!

Steve M, by "wildland firefighters", I know you're including the "militia"
equivalent, aren't ya? If you're not, we be in a heap 'o trouble! <snicker>

Mellie

I will pledge the equivalent of 2 months of my recent pay raise, of $72 per month, for a total of $144, or in other words $2.77 per mile.

If someone is willing to match me dollar for dollar, I'll pledge an additional 4 months of my pay raise.

(sorry Lobotomy, that still doesn't equal your $10; but it does show that FS Division Chiefs don't make that much more than their Engine Captains)

sign me,
not doing the job for the money

Good one. I might just have to dig deeper! Congrats on your promotion. Ab.

Ab

• 247 sub-folders
  
• 10,807 files
• occupies 173 megabytes of space
• used 23 gigabytes of bandwidth during the month of July

Ab Note: Thanks OA. You're right on the time involved as you well know from the early days... but the rewards are great. Besides enjoying looking at them myself, I get personal satisfaction in knowing they get used for nonprofit purposes - in firefighting training every winter, for presentations large and small by firefighters to each other and to the public, by fire ecologists and older students, by kids making websites for school projects, by agency fire management talking to congress, in parts and pieces in university fire training websites. Soon I hope, some will be on display on walls at the Fire Academy in Sacramento. I need to get back in touch with the person putting that together... FYI, I am checking with contributors on those photos of interest to make sure we have go-ahead.

Firefighters, if you have any opportunities left in the season to take high resolution, large size action photos of firefighters working or crews walking in a line or with their engine or helicopter, etc, please send them in. I'm looking for photos that inspire those at the Academy, educate the Public and get the old dogs that walk the halls to stop and remember. I think I'm caught up on photos to be posted here (more or less, as much as I can be...).

In the Ruth Enginecrew photo, the 2nd from the left is John Arrigoni, the 2nd from the right is Mary Brooks. I'm doubting the date of 1977, because the guy in the white t-shirt looks like Chris Griggs, and he didn't start until 1980. The guy in the headband looks like Marvin Curry, who started in '82 or '83. So, If these are these folks, the date could be as late as 1983. -

MJ

Please, Readers, let family, friends and co-workers know. Ab.

I am the author of the book in question. The review was passed along to me by <snip>. I was shocked at how the book was slammed. First of all, I don't think the reviewer bothered to read the author's note that talks specifically about what hotshots do, which would've made clear the intent of what groundpounders et al do.

Backing up, this was the third book on fire I did, the first being (based on my experience as an urban firefighter with some wildland firefighting experience-FIREFIGHTERS A TO Z which was a New York Times best seller. The second was SMOKEJUMPERS ONE to TEN. In the former I used my own experience. For the second I spent time at the USFS base in Redding CA, the visit organized by Chuck Sheley, VP/ NSA. Ironically, when I told Chuck about the hotshots idea he contacted a couple of people in this field hoping to link them up with me. I never heard from anyone. I also got zero response from a number of hotshot bases around the west. Doing research through books and this website and also talking with a supervisor at the Vermont Fire Academy (I live in NH and had gone through this academy when I became a firefighter while living in VT), as well as sharing my idea, information and art with Chuck Sheley, all gave me a thumbs-up on the book.

The reviewer picked apart the storyline, adding that the deployment of fire shelters was as if it was a daily occurrence, clearly should the ignorance of the reviewer. In telling a story for kids about hotshots, was to show what can happen, not what always happens. And the deployment of the shelters was to show, IF a blow-up happens, that there is a way for them to protect themselves and in the author's note, I explain it's not intended as really anything but a last resort as the training includes being able to read a fire to avoid such situations.

The story shows what can happen and how quickly things can happen, how the use of backburns with drip torches and fusees are tools to deprive a fire of fuel, one of the three ingredients, as you well know, of the fire pyramid.

The book was gotten starred reviews and been heralded by the wildland firefighers I know. Obviously I can't please everyone but to condemn it as being full of false information and therefore not an educational tool for kids is subject to opinion. So few books for kids on this aspect of firefighting have been done and my intent was to give credit and praise to all the hotshots out there, not to antagonize them. I stand by the book and its content knowing I did get support and guidance from those in the know.

The process of every book I do on real life adventures means talking and spending time with those individuals who do their brand of work. A book on Coast Guard rescue came out June '04 based on hours, not only talking with pilots and crew, but flying with them. The book was so well received by the USCG, I received a personal thank-you from the USCG Commandant/Washington DC.

I book on Hurricane Hunters is due out next June, again based on my personal experience with them. The story and art are done and have been shared with them. Again the response has been overwhelmingly positive.

What does it show? Only that through cooperation can a book truly be successful. Chuck Sheley and I were extremely disappointed not a single hotshot out west responded to our requests. Still, the book in our opinion, is an accurate reflection of the good work you people do.

With best wishes,

Chris Demarest

I was cleaning out old files and found this email from several weeks ago which I'd forgotten. You can find the zero saws review on the kids books review page. The reason I didn't post this message when it came in was because I wanted to get the book, read it and see if I agreed with the reviewer. I did that. The book is as the reviewer describes it. Does that matter for little kids? I think if we're trying to clearly establish an environment of safe and professional wildland firefighting, it does. Has anyone else read this book? Thoughts? Ab.

Great site,
tempoligist

Take a look at the CA Fire Alliance website under resource guide (pdf file). From what I understand, this is going to be updated in the next few weeks, but it is excellent info. Ab.

Radio Communications, FAM Safety Team Preliminary Report

Copter 100, last I heard is that Hemet-Ryan Air Attack Base was
not going to be using the "gel" this year.... too many environmental
and safety concerns still left unaddressed?

Gizmo

I have to wonder about the safety of the gel myself. The FAQ’s page says that the “gel” is 95% water but the Material Safety Data Sheet (Only a portion of it is available through the website of ThermoGel) says it is 20-30% polyacrylate polymer, 20-30% petroleum hydrocarbons, and 1-5% surfactant. I care about the environment, but I care a whole lot more about the people that that “blue stuff” is being dropped on.

The MSDS says that there are no carcinogens in the product. Did petroleum hydrocarbons somehow get overlooked? They must have been the good kind of hydrocarbons and not the bad polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons or the various other bad hydrocarbons that cause cancer? But they did mention the mist that is produced by the product when it is dropped from the air and the inhalation hazards. They also mentioned the “mild” hydrocarbon “smell” with out even studying the fact that if you drop it from the air upon firefighters, they will ingest it. If there is a hydrocarbon “smell” that is available to the senses or a route of entry through ingestion, I need to know a whole lot more about the product before I will let my folks let people drop that “blue gel” on them or me.

> From the U.S. Centers for Disease Control…

www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html

The reason that the Federal Agencies and the CDF are at odds with the technology is that that “gel” has not been properly researched… the effects upon the people and the environment have not been adequately tested and documented.

Sign me… not a guinea pig to save a buck or two for CDF if it compromises safety without Safety or Environmental review,

… do the research before you try to save a buck or two at the expense of safety and the environment…. Convince us it is safe before we are used as guinea pigs for the safety of the product or how it will save the taxpayers money. You already presented the facts about how the product works so good... Is it safe for the people it is applied upon and the environment?

"The original intent of the legislation was to apply the provisions of the bill to all employees of land-management agencies who respond to emergency incidents...."

As written, HR 408 sends the message that "bean counters and bureaucrats" (as you so often refer to the opponents of your bill) are not needed in wildland fire, simply because their job description is not primarily fire. I may not speak for federal wildland firefighters, but I can speak for the wildland firefighting community in saying that we need to inspire all land agency employees to become involved with fire and their supervisors to allow that involvement. This is not just something we can blame on OPM.

One need look no farther than the Cramer Fire to see a prime example. The lack of available operational and logistical support was clearly causal in overwhelming an IC and the tragedy that resulted. Perhaps those resource orders could have actually been filled that day or the day before, but on many fires we've never heard of, similar requests return "Unable To Fill." They are UTF, while people in nearby federal offices go about their daily routine.

We can't afford to write the militia off.

vfd cap'n

Hi vfd cap'n. HR 408 was not designed for primary firefighters only. Federal employees who respond to emergency incidents include the agencies' "militia" who are not primary fire -- such as those who work on fire incidents as dispatchers, camp supply, security managers, finance folks, etc. It may include the ranger and wilderness person who act as public information officers or the timber beast that fills in temporarily on a hotshot crew. The bill, as Kent Swartzlander and Casey wrote it, has every intent to include "all employees of land-management agencies who respond to emergency incidents." When the bill passes and OPM is tasked with implementing the requirements, if they don't get it right, it will go back to Pombo for technical amendment if necessary. Ab.

Blue Drop

NOPSer

I put it on AirTanker 19 photo page. Ab.

Is it true that eventually everyone has their button pushed? Boots are a good offer. If Viejo writes back, I will copy and paste his reply in an email to you. Ab.

Ab had to employ a couple of snips... Please, let's keep this about issues.

LW

I'm not sure which contractors that the fwfsa has demonstrated that they
can replace with a gs-4 and a skateboard. I am positive if a complete
cost analysis and performance evaluation would show that contractors can
do most jobs asked them and be at least as competent as any other
resources available. Some are better then others, any kind of resources,
but the poor performers will be weeded out if the CORs and FMOs do their
job. Several years ago Congress decided to reduce the federal workforce,
the latest round was called reinvention. That process made the workforce
smaller, recently legislation has increased funding for federal wildland
agencies to achieve MEL. Minimum or maximum efficiency level, depending
on how you look at it. They have all the 8 hour a day help they said
they needed. But I guess the fwfsa wants more. I am on the associations
side being a fftr for a while but they should rejoice to have the help
available to them through the contracting and cooperator arena. I do not
advocate federal workforce reductions and more contractor firefighting,
but I think the administration does.

Did ya hear that Haliburton just invested in water tenders? ha!

anotherDave

Thank you kindly. Ab.

Ya leave the internet behind for the weekend and it takes over an hour to catch up on theysaid.

Casey, thanks for what you do for us. Retention of FS Firefighters, BLM, etc is very poor.
Having to hire and train new recruits costs taxpayers lots of dough. FWFSA has some
solutions we're working on to retain and maintain a safe and professional work force. It ain't easy,
but it is necessary.

Tahoe Terrie

Thanks for the info.

PYG

NorCal Tom

Todd

Feel free to write in with issues. Messages saying you hate ROSS are not very informative. Ab also would be willing to hook people up behind the scenes.

To Engine Captain

You make some great points about the comparison between the federal wildland agencies and all risk fire departments.

To "researcher"

Not to open a hornet's nest here....honestly, it's just a question.....but I have to question your call volume and type for the ECC's you posted. To any federal agency person out there....

What is the current POLICY on the USFS and their response to all risk incidents in Region 5. There seems to be vast differences between NF's around the State. Last time I checked it was something like this:

• Structure Fire response as a wildland resource for wildland exposure if structure fire threatens FRA. No interior attack. Turnout are worn with wildland boots.....?
• Vehicle Fire response only if it threatens FRA?
• No statutory authority for Medical Aids, Traffic Collisions, Haz Mat, Rescue, etc.?
• What is the minimum required level of EMS, Haz Mat, and Low Angle/Swiftwater certification for a FS firefighter on an engine company?

I seriously questions the calls listed on "researchers" post unless it was an interagency ECC dispatching local government and CDF resources. Just a light hearted question.......this should be fun!

CDF True

The federal firefighting agencies are All Risk... a national fire department embedded in a land management organization... Ab.

Why are you so mad with the way the Blossom fire is being run? Have you actually been on the fire? I have... and I have nothing but admiration for all of the ground pounders that are working their hearts out. It seems to me and a lot of others on this forum, that you have an axe to grind against the USFS. I really hope this isn't true. The IMTs that have been on the fire are trying their damnest to bring the fire under control. Just remember that in order to understand what those firefighters are going through, you need to walk 10 miles in their shoes.

I would sincerely hope that you would give the men and women that are doing battle with the Blossom fire, accolades and encouragement instead of grief.

Ed

Maybe out-of-date, but then you could also say that of the Kirk study... Ab

Folks,

Here is the written testimony of Casey Judd and FWFSA which is now public record.
The document we linked to several days ago is about 10 of the 15 pages of his oral testimony before the committee. This is the whole 30 pages.

Please free to review it and contact Casey personally if you have any questions.

contact info: Casey Judd at FWFSAlobby @ aol.com or (916) 515-1224.

Ab.

Sling Load is on a new assignment, gone to ID. The info is on his laptop. He promises full details when he gets home. Ab.

you've been pretty open in your criticism about the management of the Blossom Fire on the Siskiyou NF, and have every right to your opinion, and to express those thoughts on this site (as the rest of us do frequently). But now, I'd like to pose some questions to you:

• What have you personally done to try and insure that something like this does not occur again, given your obvious dislike for the current operations and management direction?
• Did you submit comments on the "Biscuit Fire BAER DEIS"?
• Have you written/called/Emailed the District Ranger/Forest Supervisor/Regional Forester/Chief about your concerns as a taxpayer?
• Have you come up with safe and effective alternative strategies and tactics that would suppress "Blossom" at a smaller size, and for less $$? Are you a member of a Regional or National IMT so that your opinions and options on future similar events will be considered?
• Are you commenting on Forest Plan revisions where similar management philosophies are under consideration?

It's great to keep challenging the status quo way of doing business, but in doing so, a person also assumes a responsibility to offer suggestions for improvement and change. Even if you are a USFS employee, you can offer comments about management activities and proposals on your own time, from your own computer at home, without ever identifying yourself as an Agency employee. I've done it, and never suffered any retribution.

To get ahold of the USFS Line Officers and decision makers, go to www.fs.fed.us and let them know your thoughts! Keep asking tough questions, but consider taking the next step and offering constructive answers to your questions.

Mollysboy

Good suggestions. Viejo, say the word. I'd be happy to put anyone in touch with you. Ab.

viejo

Cris

• the cost of a hotshot crew to the govt was $2,700 a day plus vehicle mileage,
• the cost of a contract crew to the govt was $4,000+ a day.

Record keeping is getting better and teams are working hard to account for all
suppression costs. Computer tracking will streamline all of this.

Sling Load

The entire Tuolumne Fire Report must come out. An article in Fire Engineering (by Mike Terwilliger, cdf) comes from the cdf greensheet/fs 72hr report and the Executive Summary (5 page pdf of 186 page unreleased report). I think the article is misleading or incomplete in some places, but probably not on purpose. An author can only interpret and report on what he reads from his own experience. The reports out now have limited info. For one, I don't think the Eva's crew was told to build downhill line. How can any of us make sense of what happened and learn anything without details and timeframe?

All firefighters NEED to learn some critical stuff from this tragedy. Communications from cdf to fs and back need work. Some communication systems between copters and crews and atgs and ic's might need to change. Frequencies should be put in place by cdf.

Not placing blame here. just looking for answers. cdf and the fs need to let us read it to figure it out from the horse's mouths. Another thing I think is we don't need more rules. Firefighters do need to read the WHOLE report and figure out how to change to keep this from happening again.

Ab, could you add links.

Eva's friend

I called to ask and CDF has told the FS that the whole report will be made public. I put a list of links to all the reports we have on the Docs Worth Reading Page (Archives). Ab.

OK I stand corrected on the union comment, and as I said and agree with many here I do think wildland firefighters are NOT paid enough.

I still think a boost to 24 hour a day pay is too much (yes greedy)

PYG who I work for is my own business. Come on, you could not have read the testimonies and at least not got a little kick out of my comments. It clearly did not take you on a walk down the middle road.

CW

PS... Does anyone know where to get the "Six Minutes" series as a set? or
do I have to download all of them Individually? - Thanks.

Interesting, you didn't spell that out in your first post... a bit of the provocateur, are you? Ab.

I'm sorry for your situation. I am careful to document everything.

Dragon Wagon

        Pay Grades for Federal Wildland Firefighters (Base G.S. Table)

Grade/Step 1  Step 2  Step 3  Step 4  Step 5  Step 6  Step 7  Step 8  Step 9  Step 10 WGI

1    16016   16550   17083   17613   18146   18459   18984   19515   19537   20036  VARIES
2    18007   18435   19031   19537   19755   20336   20917   21498   22079   22660  VARIES
3    19647   20302   20957   21612   22267   22922   23577   24232   24887   25542   655
4    22056   22791   23526   24261   24996   25731   26466   27201   27936   28671   735
5    24677   25500   26323   27146   27969   28792   29615   30438   31261   32084   823
6    27507   28424   29341   30258   31175   32092   33009   33926   34843   35760   917
7    30567   31586   32605   33624   34643   35662   36681   37700   38719   39738   1019
8    33852   34980   36108   37236   38364   39492   40620   41748   42876   44004   1128
9    37390   38636   39882   41128   42374   43620   44866   46112   47358   48604   1246
10   41175   42548   43921   45294   46667   48040   49413   50786   52159   53532   1373
11   45239   46747   48255   49763   51271   52779   54287   55795   57303   58811   1508
12   54221   56028   57835   59642   61449   63256   65063   66870   68677   70484   1807

Re HR-408: I think DoD Fire got their pay increase because it was snuck in as a rider
attached to a postal bill. Maybe you can back door ‘em too.

All’s fair in love and politics.

generally speaking, i would not enter my opinions in a medium like this b/c i think there is enough complaining that goes on in our world; who needs to listen to another firefighter whining about hours? however, this is something i feel strongly enough to speak up about b/c conventional and sanctioned channels for voicing our opinions have been quietly but thoroughly closed to us.

while on a helibase on a relatively small but expensive fire in OR (during this current season) which i will designate only as being near gold beach, a type 1 team was brought in to transition with the type 2 that was managing the fire. as new teams typically do, they proceeded to make various changes to the current operation, including a scrutinization of the hours we had been working. this of course was expected, as was the subsequent reduction in hours. however, the time unit of this team then declared that our hours were then reduced RETROACTIVELY, backdating and altering our FTR's five days prior, effectively chopping two hours from all personnel from the time the team took control of the fire. the helibase manager, upon broaching the topic with human resources, that if he were to pursue the matter in any formal fashion, under any sort of grievance, the team would audit time back to the beginning of the fire, including the portion which had been under type 2 management...effectively telling him, in not so many words, to shut his mouth.

now, i understand fully that a few hours is "no big deal"; that to complain about this is somewhat ineffective. however, it is less the matter of the hours themselves and more the principle of this action. in case anyone out there is not aware of this, a CTR is, in fact, a signed document, and IT IS ILLEGAL TO ALTER A SIGNED DOCUMENT. <snip>.

i also understand the policy and the idea behind "cost containment" which is so prevalent in these latter days of fighting fire, however: any management team that has 90 people on its staff, orders superfluous personnel, runs two helibases in a clumsy operation that could be more effectively executed with one, orders and supports a retardant operation that becomes not only risky but also redundant, could perhaps be better served to "cut costs" by, in short, taking a minute to make a plan instead of making a plan a minute. perhaps ordering a few less CWN helicopters and modules to ferry around dignitaries. perhaps dumping a little less retardant into active creek drainages by using vehicles and drivers who are accustomed to driving on logging and forest service roads. heck, maybe even ordering half as many cases of gatorade. i have a hard time believing that whacking a couple of hours from a few GS-4's and 5's is going to make any appreciable difference in the overall cost of a wilderness fire that has already far exceeded what it should have in the first place.

so, a word of warning to the little guys and the people who manage them: <snip> guard your time like you would your soul. the mantra of the forest service these days has nothing to do with caring for the land or serving people. it runs something more along the lines of "document EVERYTHING".

MKS

PYG, please keep posts to issues and not personalities or I'm gonna have to tell yer momma on you. Ab.

wch

$1,006 was the average it COST for the Federal Government to employ one State or Local Cooperator per day of the Kirk fire in 1999. Many of those firefighters were from California but many were from across the country- something like 35 of 50 states were represented. Kirk Fire Study link. If you were a local cooperator that came to the Kirk Fire, you might have fit in at below average firefighter COST, especially if your firefighter pay at home is less than non-fed CA firefighter pay. CA has high cost of living and most municipal firefighter jobs pay a lot so their firefighters can support families.

On any large fire you're deployed to, there also undoubtedly other costs associated with your engine's deployment that are above and beyond the $$ you get paid. Your post earlier in the month complained about the university tacking on dispatching engines and garnering administrative costs. Those are not uncommon and they are high, pushing the COST of suppressing fires higher and adding to the overall high costs of suppressing fire.

Not a Fed

I didn't catch it that MT Firefly's post addressed the wrong person. MT Firefly clearly meant CW, not the other guy. This mis-remembering happens from time to time. I remember when everyone was Anon. Boy it was hard to follow the threads then... Ab.

You had me busting a gut rolling on the floor with the Type I IC nomination comment. Yeah right.
I <snicker> just thinking about it. I love this fire stuff, but I don't think so. I like to think I'm a good
leader and a good follower when needed, but I have a hard enough time gagging myself at times
on this board. I probably would tell off some member of the Public (very unprofessional) or,
worse yet, some firefighter bigger than me. Best stick to what I do best...

Mellie

Pulaski would'a told ya he was just doing his job. Ab.

Lots of new helicopter photos on Helicopters 19 from Ryan H, WayneP3 and Shari and on on Helicopters 20 from Connor Zwicky, Mike Evans, TD, and SEA.

Thanks, contributors.
Ab.

Who's in charge got worked out and arrangements are being made to give the Monument the regular love it deserves from the firefighting community. Ab.

It's an association, not a union. Ab.

".... for a member of congress to even consider introducing a bill, they and their staff collect data and information necessary to ensure that the bill has merit, the issue is just, etc. I would suspect that a member of Congress is not inclined to introduce legislation without thoroughly examining the issue."

My rationale: the Bill introduced by Washington's Senator Maria Cantwell and Rep Doc Hastings after the Thirtymile Fire that required an independent investigation of wildland fire fatalities only involving USFS personnel. Their unthinking efforts led to the investigation process that resulted in the fiasco that we now call "Cramer".

Let's not give our esteemed Congressional reps too much credit: they too listen to the "squeaky wheel" many times, often to the detriment of the rest of the citizens and taxpayers! And in the case of the Public Law they forced through Congress and for Bush's signature, to the detriment of USFS firefighters!

Casey - keep up the great work!

Aberdeen

CC

BigBar Complex, both late in the season in 1999. Ab.

"There is no doubt that cooperative agreements with such fire agencies in a number of cases are crucial to prompt responses to wildfires each season...to a point. The inherent higher costs of such resources, often substantially higher than comparable personnel and equipment from the federal land-management agencies, must be looked at and is, in our opinion, one of the greatest causes for the sky-rocketing costs of wildfire suppression across the country." ----- from
http://reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Casey%20Judd%20ORAL%20TESTIMONY.pdf

Greatest causes? Really? Then why do several research papers and reports point to cooperative agreements with local agencies as a way to contain wildfire costs? Why is NWCG and IAFC exploring ways to get more local firefighters on the fireline?

It's one thing to talk a little smack here on Theysaid. It's something else to mislead Congress.

vfd cap'n

Ab.

Anybody reading this from near fire camp, print off a flyer/pledge forms. Get copies made in black & white. Get permission to take 'em to fire camp and pass 'em around. You might even get the IC to announce the run at briefing. Collect 'em and fax or mail 'em in. Thanks to those who are doing that! Ab.

• CDF with some structure protection from Andrew H.
• Action photos from Sharkbait in New South Wales, Australia.
• Photos from engine crews in UT and WY this season.
• Historic Ruth Lake SRF engine crew pic from 1977.

I've posted them on the Engines 14 and Engines 15 photo pages. Please read the description page for photo details. Thanks contributors.

Ab.

Thanks again
Jim T.

Snakes & Sun: Angeles is full of snakes, especially this year after all the rain we got. So heads up for that. Bring sun-block with you. The desert is especially hard on the skin.

Tony has been in contact with the folks at Sta. 76. They are aware that we are coming, in fact you may see a fire engine or two along the route. An LACO Fire PIO is in contact with the LACO S.D., as well. Good thing...that's what worried me the most.

Okay, I think that covers it. Now, there is a bit of a discrepancy in start times. So, Let's go with 0700 on the 10th. Sorry about that. That's what's on the "flyer". If there is a bit of confusion close to run-day, if I need to be I will be at Fox at 0530, just in case.

I joked earlier about having to turn around. However, if for some reason (fire, flood earthquake, etc.) we cannot continue down Bouquet, we will load up and head back to Fox, and I will continue the run out into the desert. Cool?

More later,

KCP
perrykc93 @ hotmail.com (Ab fragmented it to foil the spiders; copy and take out the spaces.)

Thank you for all that knew my dad and that share in the memories of a man who truly knew no limits.

I love you all -

Eric Johnson

Eric, your dad taught many and the ripples move out. He lived his best life from what I've heard and we are the beneficiaries. Would that we could all do as well. I'm sorry for your - and our - loss. Ab.

There was such a sense of relief that he was home.... and we are so grateful to Region 1, the aviators, the Smokejumpers, the dispatchers and the Nez Pearce NF for bringing home our hero in a beautiful respectful manner. Ernie's homecoming was on the front page of today's Mason County Journal along with his obituary.

Friends and family are presently enroute from throughout the US and the local hotels are either sold out or filling up fast..... Saturdays service will be memorable for not only honoring a great man but for bringing together our fire family. We had many great times on the Olympic and in serving others throughout the US..... It won't be the same without Ernie

Ernie's Friend

Mason

Brother when you weep for me
Remember it was meant to be
Remember I’ll be at your sleeve,
On every steep and shale covered hill
When your hiking continues only through will
When you feel that touch against your sleeve you will know
In draws hot with searing heat
On ridges where a spot you unexpectedly meet
By snags where the embers fly
You know that I’ll be at your side
The station from which I now respond
Is overstaffed with heroes gone
Those who went on one last roll
Who did a job and and gave their all
As firefighters we understand
That death’s a card dealt in our hand
A card we hope we’ll never play
But one we hold there anyway
That card is something we ignore
As we hike across the “classic” draw
For we know we’re the only chance
To stop the beast in its fury filled dance
So remember when you wipe your tears
The joy I knew through out the years
As I did a job I loved to do
I pray that thought will see you through

thanks, Risky

The poem that inspired this is May They Not Be Forgotten by James McNulty, FDNY (retired)

Haw, haw. Excellent firefighter humor on that one! A small photo of Ken running. He looks up for it. Ab.

I was sniffing around the internet for information on HR-408 and I came across OPM’s site with news releases. While reading their take on the measure, I glanced up into the left hand corner of the page and saw a link titled “Strategic Management of Human Capitol.” Humm…that term "human capitol" doesn’t exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling. “1984” anyone?

Good luck on the bill.

LMH

You donate to the CDF training and equipment fund every year, on april 15th! ( tax time) Other than that, it's a scam. I use to get calls for donations for the "Fresno CO Firefighters" union. They quit calling after I would ask what local they were with - Fresno Co is a CDF contract!

Firecat

You should be nominated for a National Type1 IC slot, you got that high management stuff down pat. That was quite the history lesson on the wildland fire club, hopefully someday most of what you said will be implemented. Up here in the rockies and in r4, crew performance, whether engine or hand crew, is recorded and kept for future use. If a crew sucks during the season then they aren't invited back the next, or if they really screw the pooch they are relieved and shown the road home, as what happened to several crews at the Cramer Fire. As for contracted resources, their performance means the difference in a profitable year or going flat azz broke as has been seen the last few years. There are great crews out there and a few "soup sandwich" crews, both federal and contracted. My organization actually does wildland fire as a sideline since we have numerous contracts for municipal fire/ems service in areas with heavy WIU. BUT we have very high standards in performance, training, capabilities and leadership. For example, all our wildland teams have certified in all levels from fft2 to ic3 as for the line dog positions. Every year we do the rudimentary wct and refresher training but every year we also have to pass a firefighters physical agility test which is more demanding than walking 3 miles with 45lbs in 45 minutes. Our training cycle for wildland begins when the last deployment is completed to the last the end of the next fire season with lessons learned, new policies/procedures from federal/state/local authority, new ideas and concepts (Our C3I Vans-6x6 & 8x8 trucks with Command/ Control/ Communications/ Intelligence Capability, implemented spring of last year in our organization), Our ARFF Crews train year around for not only municipal work but for helibase/tanker base as do our als/bls crews (every engine is at least bls capable). And with all that said, Our crews still come home safely and with nothing but "Excellent" on their 224's.

Be Safe All Out There On The Line.

Dawn
Engine Boss

Commander's Intent does indeed come from the military. I was first introduced to the concept during a tour of Gettysburg Battleground PA back in 1989 before I joined the 180 Club. The Union win in that bloody battle was attributed to its use.

If you do a wildlandfire.com search on "Commander's Intent" you'll see it's been discussed here since 2003 when the R5 Hotshots and Engine Captains initiated the dialog. Yactac and Lobotomy were part of that early discussion, as I recall. Following Storm King in '94, the 30mile fire fatality mitigations in '01 had piled on more "rules" as did the Cramer fire fatalities in '03. The SoCal 2003 Firestorm heightened the discussion to a tipping point when it became clear that firefighter COULD NOT fight fire safely while documenting all the checklists of rules that had come to be required of themselves and their subordinates. Some ICs had said they could not and retired early as it became clear that DOJ would come after them for that confession a priori if a fatality occurred on their watch in a subsequent firestorm. (I still hold IC Mick McCormick as a hero for retiring rather than saying the emperor was clothed when the emperor was clearly stark nekked.)

The paper that has been most often talked about here since the early days has been Shattuck's "Communicating Intent and Imparting Presence". It was posted on the Fire Leadership website and is important in the L-380 class. The Commander's Intent concept is what the Forest Service Doctrinal Review is all about -- the philosophical (and legal) question:

• will ICs be held to Rules and documenting all the checklists for themselves and all their many subordinates (currently including the non-professional yahoos out there) or
• will they be held to Imparting Intent to a well trained, professional firefighting force who then use the best tactics in the moment to respond to changing fire conditions.

The jury's still out. (I also appreciate Ed Hollenshead for his unwavering, good-humored work on fire's behalf with regard to the push for Doctrinal Review. In my opinion, we all need to support that process.)

If you're interested, here's the preliminary report on the USFS Pulaski Conference on Doctrinal Review. I saw a cool video of it too, but can't remember if it's online. Anyone know?

I don't know how poor performers are currently documented on fires, or even if they are. They should be. If they're not, I don't know how they might be. Keeping more computer records from start to finish on fires might let fire better document who did what, when, and why they have so little to show on some days... keeping in mind that some of firefighting is "hurry up and wait". I want to add that a very professional private sector organization that has helped raise expectations for excellence is the NWSA. Good effort there...

(Boy, do I miss Don Studebaker. Used to could... I could give him a call...)

Dawn, it's nice to have an excuse to share some of this...

Ab and BR, fun pic, thanks for posting!

Mellie

PS. Oh yeah, those who haven't, pledge for Ken's run. Let your friends know. Time is counting down.
Support the Wildland Firefighter Foundation 52 Club!

There's a link on the Archives, Docs Worth Reading: FS streaming video Ab.

Ya know looking back at some of this, the army has helped develop wildland firefighting other than contributing some of the first smoke jumpers (the 555th parachute infantry battalion, 1941/42) deemed unfit for combat duty, this all black airborne unit was assigned to firefighting detail in the northwest and rockies by parachuting into remote forest fires early into ww2. But after re-reading your post I got the gist of it.

Be Safe All Out There On The Line.

Dawn
Engine Boss (Private Sector Professional)

Readers, anyone else out there you feel you need to appreciate?
(It's easy to get kinda pissy this time of the year when lots of fire
people are exhausted... or bored and feelin' they're missing the action.)

BR, didja send in that pic?

Mellie

She definitely sets a fine standard. Ab.

I would like to convey my gratitude to Vicki Minor for being such a
positive force in helping to reach a resolution to the issue. 10 days ago
I wrote a somewhat blistering post regarding my own sense of outrage at
what had been - or had not been done, as the case may be, to maintain and
upkeep the site.

Vicki, you're an inspiration to a lot of us.

Hugh

• “why OPM” is opposing H.R. 408 and explain to her and OPM why HR 408 is needed to continue the “mission”,
• why wildland firefighters cannot be compared to “various other groups who face similar challenges”, and
• why as a taxpayer, you feel that HR 408 is “efficiently and effectively” spending taxpayer dollars.

Those of you who saw the OPM letter of opposition three months ago can easily see that the OPM has changed direction and has begun to “circle the wagons”.

Acting Associate Director Kichak said,

"In determining our position on H.R. 408, we are governed by three basic principles. First, we need to address the merits of the proposal based on the objectives that must be met to achieve a particular mission. Second, we must try to maintain some level of equity among various groups of Federal employees who face similar challenges. Finally, we are obligated to ensure taxpayer dollars are being spent efficiently and effectively to achieve results for the American people."

Here it is:
Associate Director Nancy H. Kichak 202-606-0722 Location: 4307
nhkichak@opm.gov

Lobotomy

P.S. – While you’re at it, write to your Congressional Representatives and let them know you want them to support H.R. 408 and what your feelings are about the OPM testimony before Congress. There is nothing more grueling for an executive branch bureaucrat than answering a Congressional inquiry and having to present only the facts and not the spin.

Thanks Lobotomy for your hard work on firefighter's behalf. Ab.

Just wanted to express my memory of Ernie Johnson. He was one of THOSE PEOPLE. Rewind back to the late 70s early 80s: He managed more 'BTUs per pay period' than a lot of us see in years!! I run into a lot of folks that 'were there' (during the glory days of westside slash burning): most were not or were too young to have a clue....... but Ernie was there, and usually in front of the power-technology curve. Yep, he was key in helitorch development: Did you ever hear about the unit they burned that showed up on a NORAD screen that a new volcano had erupted or a nuclear bomb had gone off?? The real cool thing was that they (Shelton) had a BD Hughes 500 just for burning............... All coordinated by Ernie

RC

Everyone, GREAT job on solving the Monument crisis. Vicki, hats off to you for your level-headedness. Good work at the Foundation on all your many projects for our firefighters.

Lobotomy did a good thing. We could follow suit. He sent out an email to all his friends asking them to do a pledge for Ken Perry's run and included all the necessary links for them to read about it and pledge. There's power in that!

FWSA and Casey, nice going on the efforts for HR 408 in the hearings. Thanks for the report.

Public Sector Professional Firefighters, keep up the good work! It's too bad that one or two "Aw Sh*t" crews can outweigh a dozen "Atta Boy" or "Atta Girl" crews. The key is for the govt and our professional private sector watchdog organizations to keep weeding out the bad ones. Wonder what kind of performance standards could be used to separate the solid crews from the chaff? If Commander's Intent (or Leader's Intent) is going to be the doctrine of the future, we need to make sure the poor performers are shown the door.

You CDFers, thanks for the instruction on Indirect, and Downhill line tactics and guidelines.

DR, I want that pic of the Big Guy with collar brass. I'm not sure I've ever seen him dressed up! AW, thanks for the photos of the 50th AT anniversary. It would have been lots of fun to be there. TC, thanks for letting us know about that event and for the IA pics of the Deer Fire. Guess that fire in Hoopa (TishTang) got contained? I don't smell smoke!

Be Safe All.

Mellie

I would like to let others know how I felt when I took my family to NIFC to see the Firemen’s Memorial where my son is honored. I was very upset when I saw what had been done to it.

My husband and I went to the 1^st Wildland family day on 5-28-05 (which is also my son's birthday). They had a great program for the families and part of the program was taking us over to the Monument. We did not realize it was there, never mind that they had put a marker for our son there. It was like being out in the wilds of Idaho, with the grasses and wild flowers. There even was a tree they called the moon tree that someone who flew the Apollo 14 had taken on the flight and then donated to the Memorial. It was a wonderful feeling to walk through and see all the stones in memory of a son, father, mother, sister, brother, friend, in the environment they fought for. There are no words to explain what we felt to know my son's marker is there and he is remembered. We both cried a lot that day.

When I took my family back there the first of August it was like some one had raped the land. All the grass and flowers had been weed-eated. It looked like they had not watered it in weeks. Things that families had put on stones of their loved ones were gone, or broken. The moon tree did not look like it will make it. It was like I had lost my son again. It brought back more pain because I knew he would have been upset if he had seen this total disregard for his fellow Firefighters who have gone on.

I hope whoever ordered the destruction of the Memorial is not allowed to do so again. I'm afraid it is going to take a lot of love and care to get it back to what it was in May.

The other thing that is very wrong is that you cannot go and see the Memorial except 8 to 4, Monday – Friday. I wish it was somewhere else so it could be open 7days a week, so those that need to travel to see it can.

A fallen Firefighter's Sad Mom

Hi Mom, dry those tears. The wildland fire community (including staunch fire supporters at NIFC) is on the way to getting the Monument back in shape and keeping it tended. A plan for the future is being made. I talked with Vicki this morning. She'd been to the Monument Task Group meeting. She's feeling optimistic that all involved have begun working toward a common goal and that the Monument will soon reflect that.

What is missing, though, is the site to show how to contact your state Representatives in each state to "VOICE" your thoughts to them. We can complain here all day if we want but it won't do any good unless we're heard by the people that represent us. So find out who they are and let them know. "It's your right".

Be safe out there and God bless America.
SMKJ.Dad

Hi SMKJ.Dad, good point. Readers, you can find the site that links you to your congressional representatives' names, addresses, phone numbers, and email addys via the Links page under federal, toward the bottom of that category under "practical". I know some of our community are very familiar with that resource and contact our reps often on different issues. I wouldn't mind having contact info for the OPM person, too. Bet we could give her an "ear full". Ab.

Tanker marker, this is the marker at the Willows airport recognizing the early tanker program.

Pilot, here is Frank Prentice at the podium, he is the last of the original group of seven who started flying in 1955.

Seat flyby, here is the seat that made a drop for the crowd

CDF display, CDF had an S2T and OV-10 on hand as well as Vina Helitack and their Bell 205.

Model 51 & 62, Kanawah FD a local volunteer fire department brought their engine 852 a retired US Forest Service Model 51, it is sitting next to a current US Forest Service Model 62, things have changed in the past 25 or 30 years.

The Mendocino NF did a really great job, after the show at the airport, the SO was opened for a display of historical photos and equipment, as well as cake and Cedar saplings for the guests, Smokey also made an appearance for the kids.

AW

Nice job AW! I put them on AirTanker18 photo page. Ab.

Sweet old red engine. I put it on the Engines 14 photo page. Connor, it's a nice way to honor yer old dad to scan in some old photos for the "record". Thanks. Ab.

Thanks, former lurker. I put it on the Fire 28 photo page. Ab.

I put it on the Engines 14 photo page. This is one of the photos from the NV Engine Burnover Report. Ab.

Yoda

Mellie

On the wings of Angels....

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds...and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of...wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up, the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, nor even eagle flew.
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space...
...put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

Ken

Roy "Ernie" Johnson, retired Forest Service employee, is believed to have died of natural causes on Saturday, August 13th. Ernie started working for the Forest Service when he was 18 years old and retired 25 years later at the age of 43. He spent his entire career on the Olympic National Forest where he influenced the careers of all who met and worked with him.

Ernie was the Hood Canal District FMO when he retired in March of 1996. He was an extraordinary person, inventive and creative. As mentioned earlier, he was key in the invention of the helitorch. Ernie was multi-talented and served in many different roles including Type II Incident Commander, Ops Chief, Logistics Chief and Air Ops.

Ernie was on assignment in Grangeville, ID as an Airspace Coordinator. He was an exceptional airspace coordinator and loved being back within his fire family. Ernie was passionate about aviation and was building an airplane in his backyard.

Ernie is being flown home to Shelton, WA on Wednesday, August 17th by the Forest Service to Sanderson Field at 1300. We understand that he will have a firefighter escort on board the plane. We plan to meet Ernie with a stand up greeting and a line-up of engines and various fire fighting equipment. We are asking attendees to wear their fire shirts.

Viewing is scheduled on Friday, August 19th from 0900-1830 and Saturday from 0800-1200 at the McComb Funeral Home, 703 Railroad Ave, Shelton.

There will be a service for Ernie on Saturday, August 20th at 1:00 PM at the Civic Center in Shelton WA at 525 West Cota St. Fire fighting shirts are welcomed. Ernie is survived by his wife, Teresa (married 33 years this week), and three children; Jennifer (30 - who is having a baby today), Jessica (28) and Eric (22).

Cards and letters may be sent to
McComb Funeral Home
P.O. Box 179
Shelton, WA
in care of Teresa Johnson and family.

Ernie's large extended fire family is gathering in Shelton to bid him farewell. If you can not be with us, we will post an update as the week goes by.

Ernie's Friend.

Thanks for letting us know. One of the excellent contributors to fire. Condolences. Our thoughts will be with you tomorrow. I added his name to the Inquiring Minds Want to Know (IMWTK) page with ref to the helitorch. Ab.

RED ROCK CANYON NATIONAL CONSERVATION AREA, Nev. -- Federal firefighters would receive 24-hour pay when assigned to battle wildfires under proposed legislation that is being opposed by the Bush administration.

"It's a very, very tough job," said Rep. Jon Porter, R-Nev., who led a congressional subcommittee hearing Friday to explore the issue of compensation for federal firefighters. "I want to make sure they are compensated properly."

For more of this story, click on the URL below:

www.jacksonholestartrib.com

Good 'nuf. Ab.

Bill would raise pay for federal firefighters
"Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, ..."

All Risk: CDF responds to call -- man hit by buffalo Buffalo Seriously Injures Worker.
What's the strangest All Risk (wildland) firefighter call you've gotten? (State, Fed, etc wildland.)

I liked Hickman's photo.

Wildland fire helicopter hoists man off mountain
in MT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OPM Official Testifies Before Congress on Compensation for Federal Employees who Perform Emergency Functions

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Nancy H. Kichak, Acting Associate Director for Strategic Human Resources Policy of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) testified before a House Committee on the issue of compensation for Federal employees who perform emergency functions. She also provided the Administration's views on compensation for Federal wildland firefighters generally and, more specifically, on H.R. 408, the Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005.

In testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives' Committee on Government Reform and Subcommittee on the Federal Workforce and Agency Organization, Kichak recognized the importance of the work performed by Federal wildland firefighters and by their state, local, and tribal government colleagues.

"We respect the difficulties inherent in the complex and intense situations they address, and I want to express our appreciation for their efforts," Kichak said.

She discussed the basis for pay and classification of wildland firefighters and those of structural firefighters as related to the differences between their duties and responsibilities.

In providing a statement in opposition to H.R. 408, Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of 2005, Kichak testified before this hearing chaired by Rep. John C. Porter (R-NV), "In determining our position on H.R. 408, we are governed by three basic principles. First, we need to address the merits of the proposal based on the objectives that must be met to achieve a particular mission. Second, we must try to maintain some level of equity among various groups of Federal employees who face similar challenges. Finally, we are obligated to ensure taxpayer dollars are being spent efficiently and effectively to achieve results for the American people."

TC

Thanks TC, I put them on Fire 29 photo page. Made one of them our most recent Home Page fire photo and added it to the Wallpaper photos page.

Readers, check Fire 28 also, in case you missed (or I missed announcing) some new fire photos there. Ab.

OK, so who was ragging on Californian's in Alaska? I'm up here on Walker's team in Eagle. Things are just tippy tappy here. There's a learning curve, but nothing this team can't handle. Remember, this team has been in Montana and Oregon before.... I'm enclosing a few pictures to prove we've adapted just fine. Since everyone is spiked out here we need to brief by radio. Some of the folks covered their tents so that they can sleep in the lonnnnng days up here.

Many thanks to Chrisman's team who did some great work here and left us set up well. Abercrombie, we'd love to hear your stories from the 70's while we're still up here.

Sign this one,
Gone Native

Thanks, I put 'em on the Crews 18 photo page. Also on that page are faller photos of the Blossom Fire, of the Grayling Crew '05, the Roadrunners Crew '05, the Craig Hotshots and photos of the Cave Creek Fire including one of Firefighters and Nuns! Thanks Shari, Dave, UCLA-J, DC, and Proud FF's Mom. Ab.

Mason Gulch Fire Camp, Hotshots in CO: The Mason Gulch Fire burned 7/8-7/15/05. These are photos of the Lassen and Big Bear Hotshots setting up camp in Beulah CO. Taken on 7/12/05 by Peter Conlon.

Hotshots at Work 1, 2 & 3: Mason Gulch Fire. Photos compliments of Karin Kyte Romano. Photos are of the Lassen, Big Bear or Pike Hotshots. If anyone knows which ones, please let us know.

I asked Joe Millar (FMO Shasta Trinity NF) that question last week. I was all excited with the Deer Fire on the Mendocino. His short answer for our forest and probably the Six Rivers NF as well is probably no Big Bar Complex because we're not in a drought year or season following a series of drought years. As I understand it, we're likely to get small fires if we have ignition as we have some dry fine fuels at mid- and low-elevation, but the bigger stuff that has to burn for the sustained fire isn't extremely dry this year.

Looks like the action is in ID and MT and OR and WA.

www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html drought
www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/exp_fp_1.gif fire potential
www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/fd_class.gif fire danger

I hate to say it, but there was a touch of Fall in the air yesterday, but maybe it's just a break from the 3 weeks of really hot that we've had!

Mellie

You can always check those maps links via the Links page under weather. Ab.

Firecache.com and Montgomery Marketing (www.mmi-fed.com) have the Catoma
speed dome 60-second tent.

PF

Firecache/SupplyCache helps support this website. Their banner/link is at the top of the page. Ab.

MW

We covered all possible bases that we could think of Molly's, then some. Everything by the book. We have "Little Birds" (uav helicopters) covering, flanks & forward, and any blind spots we may have, all trigger points are being observed by lookouts & safeties (10/18/LCES is definitely covered), we had 2 tires in good black, escape routes (primary and 2 alternates marked/flagged, "RIT" Tenders (5K Tacticle) less than 1/4 mile down the road, Heavy Helos is support of area ops, two 5000 gpm portable pumps supplying 5" hose to 2 portable deck guns.

But no, wasn't going to face the Dragon on its terms. We didn't lay out as much sprinkler pipe as you probably did to protect the Old Faithful Inn but we do have smaller like systems in place, that fire in Yellowstone (one of several large ones that eventually merged) sure burned a nice circle around Old Faithful. Sula (Saving Sula 2003?), was a good job, though not many of us had 20 years experience, we sure had some great mentors there.

Oh Molly's...The "Big Yellow Monsters" is what we refer to our 5 Engine Strike Team, they're all yellow and we all want to go home safely after this job. Be Safe All... Peace Out.

Dawn
Engine Boss

GG

Indeed, Ted Putnam deserves our deep appreciation for taking a stand and
holding the line in not signing off on that South Canyon Fatality Report.
"Our Good" for finally acknowledging him with the fire leadership award:
www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html

SmokeJump

Sign up. Ab. Ken Perry/WFF Benefit
Anyone want to design a flyer we can send around and post in hardcopy?

Mollysboy, I hope you have your tongue in cheek on this. Best to keep posts about the "what, not the who" for the greatest information sharing. No need for personal "digs" to make your point. Ab.

AZ Trailblazer,

I wish I would have known you were there. I could have shown you some more local history. You didn't mention the other local F.D.'s that were there. Kanawha & Hamilton City. (mine was the white 1-ton with the slip-in).

When I was in high school and a big fire was rippin, my buddys and I and lots of other the local folks would go out to the airport and sit and watch the air show. If it flew and you could bolt a tank into it, it became an Air Tanker. Little did I realize then what a huge piece of history was before our eyes. Willows and the surrounding Glenn Co. area is farm country. As Greg Nolta pointed out, the air tanker business was a way to pay for the aircraft after the farmwork was over for the season. The original Pilots were our friends and neighbors, I feel grateful to have known many of them. We only honored the first 7 pilots, several of the pilots from the second year lived and raised their families in Willows and continued flying crop dusters for years. The stories about these guys and the program go on and on but a short little bit of folklore that didn't come out was Frank Varney (one of the original 7 pilots) it's told buy a very good source that he held the US Navy Pilots license #1.

danfromord

Years ago I used to receive NIFC morning reports in my private email. I believe it was
from vita.org. Any idea where I can find these?

Thanks

Jason

>From Section 7070.2 of the 7000 Handbook (Fire Operations)

Downhill/indirect line construction in steep terrain and fast burning fuels shall be done with extreme caution. Direct attack methods shall be used whenever possible. The following guidelines shall be followed before firefighting
commences:

• The decision to fight fire downhill is made by a competent firefighter after thorough scouting.
• Downhill line construction shall not be attempted when fire is present directly below the proposed starting point.
• The fire-line shall not lie in or adjacent to a chimney or chute that could burn out while members are in the vicinity.
• Communication is established between the members working downhill and members working uphill from below. When neither group can adequately observe the fire, communications will be established between the members and supervising overhead. At this time a lookout with communications will be posted where the fire's behavior can be seen.
• Members will be able to rapidly reach a zone of safety from any point along the line if the fire unexpectedly crosses below them.
• A downhill line shall be securely anchored at the top. Avoid under-slung line.
• Full compliance with "THE STANDARD FIRE ORDERS" is assured. If possible line firing should be done as the line progresses, beginning from the anchor point at the top.

>From the Incident response Pocket Guide:

Downhill fireline construction is hazardous in steep terrain, fast-burning fuels, or rapidly changing weather. Downhill fireline construction should not be attempted unless there is no tactical alternative. When building downhill fireline, the following is required:

1. Crew supervisor(s) and fireline overhead will discuss assignments prior to committing crew(s). Responsible overhead individual will stay with job until completed (TFLD or ICT4 qualified or better).
2. Decision will be made after proposed fireline has been scouted by supervisor(s) of involved crew(s).
3. L.C.E.S. will be coordinated for all personnel involved.
   • Crew supervisor(s) is in direct contact with lookout who can see the fire.
   • Communication is established between all crews.
   • Rapid access to safety zone(s) in case fire crosses below crew(s).
4. Direct attack will be used whenever possible; if not possible, the fireline should be completed between
   anchor points before being fired out.
5. Fireline will not lie in or adjacent to a chute or chimney.
6. Starting point will be anchored for crew(s) building fireline down from the top.
7. Bottom of the fire will be monitored; if the potential exists for the fire to spread, action will be taken to secure the fire edge.

FC180

“www.wildfirelessons.net/ and its partner website http://myfirecommunity.net/
are terrific resources for this sort of thing, and They Said readers would do well
to browse those sites when looking for info. It's never a bad idea to start there.”

I have to echo BLM Bob on that.

They Said is wonderful. It’s the pace and range of discussion in fire camp while eating dinner in the caterer’s tent. It’s the discussion of Hotshots and engine crews and team members and camp crew and helitack and overhead. It is made up of stories (“No %^&*@#$* there I was”), humor, rumor, philosophical observations, new ideas, discussion of new equipment, etc – not unlike what occurs around the campfire on an initial attack fire. It’s the sweat and grime and muscle and smoke and brain of firefighters all mixed up in one place, vying for our attention.

For those of us who are on the path of developing ourselves, along the lines of Paul Gleason’s legacy – as “students of fire”, the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center and Community Center are invaluable resources. The Lessons Learned site includes a link to an extensive library. It contains thousands of reports and other documents sent in by wildland fire professionals from around the world. Also here are links to information about After Action Reviews (AARs), the Center’s publications – the Scratchline and the Learning Curve, and the Winning Series – invaluable information on tactics, techniques and procedures that have proven to work in various parts of the country and on various types of incidents.

Many of the documents from the library are accessible through the Community Center site as well, but with more robust searching capability. In addition there is the infrastructure in place to allow extensive discussion for those in fire management who have special interests. This Discussion Center component of the Community Center has very robust capabilities but unfortunately seems to have dismal participation to date. I’d really like to see the sparks that would start flying here if this capability were to be taken up by some students of fire.

That’s some quick highlights of the sites. I have found them to be very useful in researching and staying abreast of issues in fire management. I would invite all the “students of fire” who visit They Said to take a look at the site. To my view there’s a lot there now and it has incredible potential to be even more in the future.

Ab, the only thing I would add here is that, to my mind, it would be ideal if They Said had a prominent link in a red button at the top of the page (instead of at the bottom of the Links page) to the Lessons Learned Center. And, I think it would be right to have a prominent link at the Lessons Learned Center to They Said – in fact I am emailing this letter and thus this suggestion to Paula Nasiatka – the center manager. The entire wildland fire community would benefit by bringing these two sites in cyberspace closer together.

Thanks,
Paul Fieldhouse

We'll consider that, although our Links Page is not set up to have Lessons Learned at the top. The Lessons Learned site does get mentioned frequently here on theysaid, as it is a terrific resource. So is the Fireline Leadership site. Excellent work and they just get better. I did move Lessons Learned to the top of the Safety Category on the Links page. Ab.

Marc, many of our easterners are out west fighting fire. If no one replies now, try asking again in early January. Ab.

Sherry

Thanks for your observations about the latest technology. It doesn't seem that long ago that you had field observers coming in and saying, "naw, I don't think the fire's to that ridge yet, but it sure burned out that draw ..." And morning briefings weren't complete without taped-together topo maps with big magic-marker lines. GPSing the perimeters, GIS capabilities, IR, and the work of the techo-wizards have done so much for wildland firefighting. No doubt, we need real people drawing on their professional experience and that "sixth sense" that can almost tell you ahead of time that there's a problem. But I've sure been impressed with the technological advances that have been made in the situation unit over the last ten years or so.

Still Out There As An AD

Got an email from Original Ab and he's having waaaaay too much fun with it. Watch out or you might get imaged in yer hottub (fer example) in whatever yer wearing (or not)... Ab.

Ab,

Communication issues are being addressed. The National MAC has released this:

Delegation of Authority Fire & Aviation Safety Team (FAST)

Hope this gets a handle on things...

NVJims

If you know of such a thing, you should report it. Ab.

Copter100

Rest assured, the MNF is not using the Deer fire to achieve Forest
Objectives. This fire was in suppression mode from day one, and remains
that way. Lastest 209 shows 75% contained. I understand the team is
planning on turning it back to the Forest as of Monday 8/15 if everything
goes as planned, and it will be managed as a type III incident. We were
lucky on this one in that the weather cooperated, and fire basically laid
down after one burning period, which is unusual for this time of year on
the Mendo.

TC

As for <snip's> comments I think he's "Reviled" dang did it again, "Revealed" that his knowledge of any subject containing the word "Fire" is quite limited, I'm surprised that he's just sharpshooting the wildland fire community, from the comfort of his computer, and not the rest of the fire service.

Ok thats my 2 cents worth, to all those of you out doing the job in "Real Time", Be Safe and bring everyone back safe at the end of the shift.

Wes
Battalion Chief

haw haw on the funny typo. The person's spell checker didn't catch that one... Gave me a good guffaw. Ab.

Interesting stuff. I have heard that some websters are working with the google maps programs to take 'em even further and make 'em much more responsive to individual needs and purposes. It will be interesting to see how it all may apply to fire. Ab.

The FWFSA appeared before the House Subcommittee on The Federal Workforce & Agency Organization yesterday outside of Las Vegas for the purpose of a congressional hearing on HR 408, the Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act. Also providing testimony in favor of HR 408 was Mr. Ryan Beamer, Southern District VP for the Professional Firefighters of Nevada.

As expected, a representative from The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) was there to offer opposition to the bill and the Forest Service was there not to comment on the policy of HR 408, but to provide insight as to what federal wildland firefighters do.

It was not lost on the Chairman that despite classifying our folks as a variety of technicians, the OPM representative and FS representative continually referred to our folks as firefighters.

As a result, the committee chairman, Rep. Jon Porter (R-NV) committed on the record to make it a priority to address the proper classification issue for wildland firefighters as well as pay reform for our firefighters. He steadfastly offered his disagreement with assessments offered by the OPM representative.

There is no doubt that months and years of work by the FWFSA with committee staff enabled the Chairman to have a clear understanding of the issues. The Subcommittee will now report its findings and recommendations to the full Government Reform committee. In the meantime, the FWFSA will continue to work to secure additional support in the House as well as a Senate companion bill and work with congressional staff to move the bill.

Despite earlier assumptions that this was a bill not likely to be taken to the floor of the House for a vote, but rather "attached" to another bill, the response from the subcommittee might in fact make it feasible to take the bill to the floor during the height of the fire season and challenge members of congress to oppose it while fires rage. Timing is everything but ultimately we will need to rely on the experts in DC who know how to maneuver these things.

In any regards, federal wildland firefighters are a huge step closer to realizing the reform or elimination of long-standing, archaic pay and personnel policies. Quite frankly, hearings would not have been held if Congress had not been convinced these issues needed attention.

If you have any questions, please contact Casey Judd at FWFSAlobby@aol.com or (916) 515-1224.

Thanks FWFSA and Casey. Ab.

Aerial firefighting nods to pioneers to mark 50 years

Willows

Thanks for the links to revealing photos. Anyone who wants to understand the politics involved, call the ICP and ask. I just did.

As I reported before, there are a lot of cooperating "players" on this fire. Decisions are being made by Unified Command with input from a number of agencies that stand to loose personnel and valued natural resources if fire is not fought safely and aggressively. Lohrey's Type I Team and ODF are the main two agencies involved right now, but they coordinate with the Coos Fire Assn and the Curry County Sheriffs Office as well. The Rogue River has been closed to rafting and overnight river camping since the fire rolled over containment lines in the Mule Creek area several days ago. If you look at the photos, you see why stopping it is incredibly difficult. Yesterday fire was continuing to back slowly down very steep slopes (80%) of Mule Mountain toward the Rogue River. As a result of all this, public interest is high and the media are watching. Be Safe Firefighters. We appreciate your good work. Ab.

I'm sure glad the acreage was downsized and the explanation being that more accurate maps was utilized. It's a tough job to do the mapping and I know everybody's always wanting to know the results immediately. Nice job. I've been on the MNF more times than I can count on all toes as an Air Attack Officer, Helitack FC, as well as a lowly "ground pounder". Tough country and LOTS OF IT. Here's hoping that the IC isn't constrained by having to let the incident grow to "achieve forest objectives" which usually aren't announced until well into the incident. There's a lot of RARE II and sensitive areas to the Northeast and it would be a darn shame if unwanted fire was allowed to advance into these areas.

Have been watching (reading) your site for a while now and find it an interesting place to view different opinions as well as information. A very nice way to keep in touch for a retired 35 year employee of CDF. I have been following the interchanges with "viejo" and others and I must admit that "viejo" points out some extremely obvious facts. I certainly agree with his latest regarding the forest's spending of 11 MILLION of the tax payer's monies w/o bringing this thing anywhere NEAR containment...much less control. For a piece of land that the taxpayers can't get into (according to the guys/gals "fighting" this thing!) it sure is getting pricey. Kudos to you for all the hard work you obviously put into this forum.

Copter100

www.theolympian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050811/NEWS06/50811003

Old Fire Guy

Hey Ab,

I have run red lights while under contract for the Forest Service on district and also as a strike team of type I engines responding from Western Washington to Eastern Washington on a state mobilization. It seems to me that the more visible that you can make yourself the safer that you are going to be, especially if you are going to be working along busy roads on initial attack. Also I know each state has its own driving program for "running code" and I have seen park service vehicles running code on state highways (transporting medical patients). Anyways, not to make the subject any more confusing, just adding some observations...

I would rather be falling a burning snag in the wilderness anyways.

Freud

Reveal? I am sure the investigation will provide information. Ab.

In case you didn't get this from another source already, this is today's news release from the multiple deployment on the Tarkio Fire yesterday.

For Immediate Release ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ninemile, Montana -- At approximately 7 pm this evening, August 10, 2005, three firefighters working on the Tarkio Fire in the I-90 Complex of fires on the Lolo National Forest deployed their fire shelters during a period of very active burning on the north side of the fire. All three firefighters are unharmed and have contacted their families by satellite phone to inform them of this evening’s event.

Fire shelters are tent-like devices constructed of reflective materials designed specifically to protect firefighters from burns in emergency situations. The fire shelters worked as intended in this instance, leaving the firefighters unharmed.

Firefighting agencies consider the deployment of fire shelters a serious event, and have initiated an investigation to determine the specific sequence of events that resulted in the need to deploy the shelters. These investigations are routine following shelter deployments and are intended to determine if the need for shelter deployment could have been prevented. Investigations of this nature are conducted to improve firefighter safety in order to prevent future accidents or injuries. Safety of firefighters and the public is always the highest priority objective during wildland fire incidents.

A press conference on the shelter deployment is scheduled for 8:30 am Thursday, August 11, at the I-90 Complex fire camp near Ninemile Ranger Station.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Misery Whip

Check the hot list.

Rob

JT

Hi Kyle. I put it on the Engines 14 photo page. Ab.

Things are different in different places, that's why local policy is way better than policies set from afar by those in the big cities with bright lights!

Aberdeen

Bill Teie's book Firefighter's Handbook on Wildland Firefighting has diagrams
and details for downhill indirect line construction. I did FS training first before I
switched over to CDF and saw this book. Teie's diagrams look like the ones I'd
seen from the FS. See if someone has the book and if you can borrow it.
If not it's on the books page.

AL

Remember the field hearing for HR 408 is this friday in Las Vegas, NV. They always give their hearings a catchy title.
This ones called "Tension in the Tinderbox: Finding Fairness for Federal Firefighter Compensation".
Much thanks to the leadership of the FWFSA and the dues paying members who supported getting the legislation this far.

sting

here is the link to their schedule http://reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/schedule.pdf

Ditto on that. Ab.

I take offense at the Mendocino being called a brush patch.
It's a wonderful place (although it does have its share of brush).

TC

_P

Light bar policy

Here's one forest's policy. Sounds overly restrictive to me, but what do I know?
Perhaps they have no traffic there. Here, you'd never get anywhere without one.
Even crew buggys are starting to have light bars and sirens.

Fish

OPERATING PLAN FOR LIGHT BAR USE
BLACK HILLS NATIONAL FOREST
ROCKY MOUNTAIN REGION

Training: Refer to FSH 7109.19 Fleet Equipment Management Handbook. Chapter 60 and The Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations 2003. The District Ranger, FMO, and/or Qualified Driver Examiners will conduct a safety orientation/briefing on use of lightbars. An annual refresher or training will be a scenario/classroom setting.

Certification: As described in the Black Hills Supplement 5160

Directions for Use: Light bars will NOT be used on roads during travel to and from any incident under any circumstances. All fire responses require a safe speed of travel. Responses will not exceed road conditions nor posted speed limits. Light bar use is approved only for on-scene protection in the urban interface and along heavily traveled roadways and where smoke impairs visibility and jeopardizes safety.

Disciplinary Actions: If operation of light bars is misused, disciplinary actions may take place, depending on the circumstances.

"Excuses are the nails that built the house of failure"

Firecat from FKU

Thanks, I posted it on quotes. Ab.

On another topic, can anyone from CDF tell me what their training is for going indirect on a fire? Back when I was in the basic FF training, that part was taught by the woman CDFer who coordinated the class. I know CDF goes direct whenever possible because of fire fatalities associated with indirect downhill line and the ability to use the black for safety zone in direct line construction. What happens when indirect line construction is not possible? Do you look at how much flammable fuel there is between you and the fire when you go indirect? Do you look at how much area there is for fire to make a run at a crew in the light fuels? Of course downhill or not must play into it too. Any guidelines? What do you teach the new guys/gals?

Mellie

HL

Welcome HL. You can read about how the site began by clicking on Ab Speaks at the top of this page. Original Ab had a mighty good idea and enough smarts to figure out how to make it real back in the days when you had to figure out and invent everything yourself. It's developed from there. All this blog (short for weblog) stuff, well they can call it whatever they want, we don't mind. Several days ago I saw some commercial TV anchors talking about people using the internet and blogs for information and that replacing tv news. They pointed out that sites like this one supply information usually on a specific topic and help people organize and think about that information. They added that some sites had good info and some didn't and that readers soon figured it out. Two commentators seemed to take blogs seriously, two didn't. We work at being responsible while fostering freedom of speech. The sum is definitely greater than its parts.

Happy browsing. Check the Links page for interesting and useful info. I use it daily to look something up. Also, if you're interested in breaking fire news, hit the News button in the header. Sign up and go to the Hot List Forum. Ab.

It's great to get to the computer, log onto the Hot List Forum, and find out the name and some info on that fire with the HUGE column just north and east of Clear Lake on the MNF. I was traveling Hwy 20. What a neat column, one of those large twisting ones that go up and up, creating its own twisting convection. Driving thru that area reminded me of going to the Cabbage and Franklin etc fires there around April Fools day 5 yr ago. Made me think of the Rattlesnake burnover too and how fast and hot those fine dry oily fuels take off. What a brush patch the Mendocino is!

LOTS of CDF rigs and a couple of other local cooperators heading west on 20. Whooohoooo!

OK, that's it! I'm just checking in. I think I'm addicted to this forum! Be safe all.

Mellie

Thanks for the info, SoCal CDF. We are sorry for fire's loss of a good man. Ab.

On August 13, 2005, at the Willows Airport, the Mendocino National Forest
will host an anniversary day marking the 50th year of aerial firefighting.

In 1982, the 25th anniversary of the first water drop on the Mendenhall
Fire, the USFS honored the original ag pilots who proved that wildfires could
be fought from the air with a ceremony and a plaque at the Willows Airport.

The sole surviving member of that group, Frank Prentice, will attend the
anniversary at Willows on August 13, which will feature displays of vintage
aircraft, airtanker demo drops, and historical exhibits.

Other sponsors include CDF, Glenn County, Frank and Lila Prentice, the City
of Willows, and the Willows Chamber. For more information call Phebe Brown
at (530)934-1137.

Todd

Thielsen Wildland Gear is sponsoring a Summer Photo Contest. Click their banner ad at the top of the Links Page for details. Don't delay, it ends August 31st. We appreciate that they support this site. Take a look at what they offer.

Ab.

Here are a few pics that have been taken by various people on fires in South Africa.
I unfortunately can't credit the photographers as I am not sure who took these pics.
They are from all regions where I have worked in South Africa.

Hope you can release them onto your site for all to see. Let the world know that
there are active wildland fire fighters in South Africa.

Regards

'Brick' Shield
Regional Manager
Working on Fire
South Africa

Hi Brick, We usually don't post photos without permission. In this case I appreciate your wanting to let us know South Africa burns and firefighters fight fire. Thus, I reduced the size of the photos a great deal (they're not print quality) and put them on the Fire 27 photo page. Hopefully your S African photographers will find the website and announce themselves. Please direct any you find to us so we can give credit and/or ask permission and/or beg forgiveness.

Jamie and Eric have also sent in plume and flames photos from Colorado (Mason Gulch Fire July 2005) and Los Angeles area (Pine Fire 2004). Those spill over onto Fire 28 photo page. Nice job, contributors. Ab.

With great sadness we send our heartfelt sympathy and prayers to Carlos
Inzunza, Firefighter at Oak Glen Station 39. On Saturday August 6, 2005
his wife and two children were killed in a traffic collision on highway
138. His sister remains in the hospital with serious injuries. In lieu of
flowers donations for funeral arrangements can be made to the Inzunza
Family in c/o Carlos Inzunza, 845 N. Verde Ave., Rialto, CA 92376. If you
have a personal message that you would like relayed to the family, their
family contact is Eddie Cortez. He can be reached at (909) 815-3957 or
pager number (909) 849-7911.

Marlene Rhynes will also be a contact for additional donations at (909)
382-2973, at the Danny Rhynes Training Center, 4121 Quail Canyon Rd., San
Bernardino, CA 92404.

Any donations are greatly appreciated and needed. Additional information
will be sent out regarding funeral arrangements.

The sad news is that a young firefighter on the San Bernardino NF lost his family in an automobile accident on Saturday. Carlos Inzunza lost his wife, his 3-year old son, and his 8-year old son, on August 6. Carlos is a first year seasonal firefighter who is known and liked by those he's worked with at his station over the last 3 months. Everyone there is trying to be supportive. I know it's hard to know how to help when people are in such deep and numbing grief. Many people who have lost loved ones have said how much it means to get cards. Passing the boot is another practical way to express support and help people through. Perhaps the larger community can help too with cards and donations to cover his immediate expenses and funeral arrangements. Mellie just called his station and reports that he and his family welcome prayers too. Here's Carlos' address.

Carlos & the Inzunza Family
845 N. Verda Av.
Realto CA 92376

Vicki

Condolences. Ab.

www.fire.ca.gov/php/fire_er_content/downloads/ExecutiveSummary.pdf

Ab.

Over the weekend I've been working with Al Golub, fire photojournalist and now retired from the Modesto Bee. Here's a page of his images of the Tuolumne Fire and of Firefighter Eva Schicke's Memorial Service, a little less than a year ago. For more details on the photos, please take a look at the photo description page.

Another firefighter too soon gone.

Ab.

Hi Wes, Deaths on the fireline are always a hard, emotional topic. No one wants to blame the firefighter or the crew involved or the choices they made. Neither does one want to blame those overseeing them or those working near them on the fireline. Most firefighters, as we've all experienced, make the best choices their training and experience allow in the time they have. However, as firefighters, you know, we discuss these things a lot. Call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you must. We do want to make sense of the tragedy, and learn what we can so as not to repeat it, and grieve our loss or at least come to grips with it. So we can go on with our lives and safely and clear-headedly fight fire again.

The fact of the matter is that burnovers and deaths usually occur when a lot of proximal and latent causal factors line up that resulted in that particular person being in that place, at that time, under those circumstances of fire behavior, topography, fuels, personal physiological responses, experience, wind event, others lighting backfires, etc, etc. This is described by the Swiss Cheese Model of Accident Causation described in James Reason's work (taught in Fireline Leadership L-380 and summarized by HC). This model forms the basis of current accident investigation procedures. One area that is less understood by firefighters and fire investigators is the field of human factors and its effect on choices under stress. An eye-opening book on this is Deep Survival, Who Lives, Who Dies and Why by Laurence Gonzales.

As for backburnfs, in my years of knowing him via this forum and knowing of him in the fire community, he has no ax to grind. He's not stirring the pot intentionally. He knows what I described above regarding the Swiss Cheese Model and Human Factors. He also knows fire behavior and fuels... and has had to come to grips with Steve Rucker's death and the SoCal Firestorm of 2003. I certainly hope he will not be on his way any time soon, as he has always contributed here for the betterment of this community.

I'm glad you spoke your mind. I'm sorry for your and our loss of Steve. Ab.

Causes for death are usually not due to only one thing. Please read my comments above. Ab.

thoughts and condolences are with the family of the FireFighter that lost his life in the line of duty

AD50

Ab note: Brian Kornegay has created a page for Virtual Condolences for fallen firefighter Chris Kanton, RRU. He invites you to take a moment and post your thoughts... www.virtual-condolences.com

Please let us know about funeral arrangements. Ab.

Some of the families (including us) requested that our marker be moved to the inside of the Monument instead of the outside. Family and friends had tried to find the markers. They couldn't or didn't think of looking outside. That is why some or all of the markers were moved. I certainly apologize to Mr. Carson, as it wasn't meant as malicious. I think if families want their firefighter's markers outside of the fence, those should be outside; and the ones that want them inside, those should be inside.

We would like to come over and help in Sept. if at all possible. We feel that the Monument should be for firefighters and families and after all that has happened, I think they and we should be the ones to take care of it.

I do know that families have tried to get in to see the Monument during non-business hours. It is very hard to get in on weekends and late or early in the day because of 911. We would like to see the Monument maybe fenced off some way so that you wouldn't have to even go by security and the buildings. Would it be possible to come in from the back gate across from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation building and visit the Monument that way?

I have tried to find out if the recent maintenance work was hired out or if somebody from nifc did the weed whacking. I have really not been able to get an answer.

Some people who have never lost a child, spouse, brother, sister or are firefighters do not really understand the significance of the Monument and the Memorial Markers and Bricks. The Monument should be a place of peace, reflection. Anything left at the Monument such as a penny, rock, statue, was left there for a reason, because someone cared.

Ken and Kathy Brinkley

Thoughts and prayers to the family and brother and sister firefighters. It is a sad
and dark day in SoCal. Let's be careful out there. You never know when it will
happen.

VNC dozer 3

The Slither

NorCal Tom

viejo

(tongue firmly in cheek) Guess that's only fair. Some group of taxpayeractivists came up with the legislation in the first place... Ab.

Be safe all - ever vigilant. Remember more deaths occur from traffic accidents going to and from incidents than on incidents themselves.

Ab.

The Press Enterprise has an article but it requires simple registration. www.pe.com/ (scroll to the bottom)

RRU firefighter

Info on this has been posted on the Hot List Forum yesterday. We commend posters for being responsible. Ab.

Freelancing in setting backfires seems to have been a problem in
hastening arrival of the firefront that led to Steve Rucker's death
on the Cedar Fire. What CDF followup is being made to discourage
that deviation from chain-of-command in the future?

Ab, I know we try not to speculate, but with no full report from CDF,
we deserve to know, Did freelancing play a part in entrapment
of Helitack 404?

NorCal Tom

Condolences on the CDF LODD death in Beaumont (Riverside). My heart goes
out to friends and family. Prayers for all.

SoCal CDF

Our sincere condolences as well. Our SoCal interagency firefighters are a tight bunch, having worked hand in glove on many fires. Support each other in this time of loss.

Is there any support that can be provided for the family? The Wildland Firefighter Foundation is willing to step in to help with any arrangements and immediate expenses. Please e-mail contact info and we'll see Vicki gets it. Ab.

The spinmasters at CDF wouldn't have released the Report on Steve Rucker's death
on the obscure state of CA link if his wife hadn't leaked it to the Marin paper. Good
for her for making it public. Discussion here was helpful. We'll incorporate some lessons
learned from that into next years training. One way we honor the fallen is to do our best to
make sure it never happens again. To do that, we need to know what to watch out for.
Like you students of human factors say here, we need slides in our carousels of experience.
Those we train need slides, too.

SoCal CDF

I have not replied to this before, but I am concerned with the way our cdf incident report information is "managed".

The Executive Summary doesn't give much more info than the Greensheet/72 Hour Report. How can we learn from these potential learning opportunities if we don't have the detailed timeline of events and conditions, some maps, etc? I know cdf wants to control release of info to the public so it won't be sensationalized. But why can't we see the report and learn from it. It's easy to blame a person and have the learning stop there. We'd learn more if we could potentially each see ourselves or someone under our command in that fire setting and think through what we could do differently and more safely if it was us. As it is, I think the Executive Summary is not about learning, but about placing blame and managing image. Until cdf can release the whole report as a matter of routine, cdf will not truly be a learning and safety-oriented organization which are the prerequisites for being a truly professional firefighting organization as hard as we try to make it so.

We need to do more. This should not have happened.

Eva's friend

~~~~~~~~~~~~
File Code: 6180 Date: July 21, 2005
Subject: Professional Liability Insurance
To: Regional Foresters, Station Directors, Area Director, IITF Director, and WO Staff

There has been considerable discussion and interest in the Regions to expand the reimbursement coverage for the Professional Liability Insurance (PLI). The discussion is focused on including the Incident Commanders and those who volunteer for fire assignments and who are not normally in supervisory or managerial positions in the reimbursement for PLI. WO staffs from Human Resources, Legislative Affairs, and Fire and Aviation are working on a remedy.

Until a remedy is secured, you are reminded that Public Law 104-208 Section 636 allows agencies to reimburse a qualified employee for one-half of the cost incurred by the employee for purchase of PLI. According to Section 636(b) of the law a qualified employee is an agency employee whose position is that of a law enforcement officer (LEO), supervisor or management official. A supervisor/management official is identified on the personnel action under the field called Position Supervisor Code with a 2, 4, or 5. The definition of supervisor may be found at 5 USC 7103(a)(10). This section states, "with respect to any unit which includes firefighters or nurses, the term 'supervisor' includes only those individuals who devote a preponderance of their employment time to exercising such authority." The Forest Service Handbook Section 6109.12,70 Amendment No. 6109.12-99-3 subsection 71.04 (see enclosed) states that the head of the servicing human resources office (SHRO) is responsible for offering the reimbursement to eligible employees. It would be contrary to law for the SHRO to certify that employees are eligible for reimbursement of PLI if they don't meet the requirements of the law indicated above.

There are groups of employees, including Incident Commanders, who do not meet the legal definition of a supervisor even though they may be exercising independent judgment, assigning work, managing, and/or supervising other employees while on a fire assignment. This is because a fire assignment is considered to be temporary in nature and as a result the employees are not performing the responsibilities specified in the General Schedule Supervisory Guide. In addition, the temporary nature of the fire assignment does not contribute to the Position Description (PD) having a preponderance of time exercising supervisory or managerial authority.

Please ensure that those employees who are currently ineligible for reimbursement of the PLI premiums are aware that they are eligible to apply for PLI on their own by paying the full premium which is about $300 per year.
If you have any questions on this please contact Teresa Marler at (703) 605-0844 or tmarler@fs.fed.us.

/s/ John G. Lopez
JOHN G. LOPEZ
Director of Human Resources Management

[From Oldest Dog Barking] “Someone person got their tail feathers in a bunch over some personal power thing and spread a lot of garbage around at NIFC about the Monument belonging too much to the families who have lost kids and spouses. A NIFC higher up reacted to the threat/control message. This kind of unintentional poisoning process is not uncommon with both small-minded people who feel under appreciated and those who get nervous and try to control situations. In any case, someone higher up hired the company that made the drastic changes that resulted in the current "down to mineral soil" look of the Monument.” [Oldest Dog continues]: “I personally think that the BLM person in charge of unilaterally mandating the changes is sending a clear message that "this is BLM land" and "we will control it" while saying "nothing is to happen here for the next 2 years" and "no bricks will be set" etc, etc.

So I’m going to add my long two cents, for what it’s worth.

I suspect Oldest Dog is correct in his analysis. I spent the last three (inglorious) years of my career on that 18 acres of “BLM land, though last I heard, it is not BLM land, it is the American taxpayer’s land, and given the intent of the Monument, it most definitely first and foremost “belongs … to the families who have lost kids and spouses.” Any NIFC fire bureaucrat who believes and acts otherwise ought to revisit the basic core values they are supposedly teaching the new generation of firefighters: Duty, Respect, and Integrity. Because if Oldest Dog is correct, you’ve shot all three right through the heart.

Prior to my taking a job at NIFC in 1997 and during my 3-year stay there, a bunch of good folks like Dick Terry, Laurel Simos, Mike Apicello, Roy Johnson, Billy Mitchell and countless others spent untold hours digging sprinkler lines, landscaping, planting, etc. Billy especially had this vision of a place of peace and remembrance, and if anyone drove the Monument into reality in the mid- and late 90s, it was Bill Mitchell. A vision become reality that Vicky Minor is doing her best to preserve.

When I got To NIFC, Billy, having heard I’d been a stone mason in a previous life, asked me if I wanted to build waterfall. I jumped at the opportunity, seeing it as both a chance to honor friends and fellow firefighters who’d lost their lives, but also as excellent therapy to decompress from the Nevada “BLM/NDF aviation wars” that I’d been in the middle of for 9 years.

However, when Billy showed me the “water feature” plans, they portrayed a dinky little 10’ stream coming down off the hill with one of those rubber “thingies” underneath it to hold the water in. I said to Billy, “I thought you said you wanted a waterfall, a REAL WATERFALL?” He grinned and said “build it any way you want.”

So, with the full support of BLM management, myself and a rotating band of BLM SMJs as hod carriers and rock haulers, spent two summers building what you see now at the Memorial. Above the pool and underneath the 3 major levels of rock, are three 10’ deep x 25’ wide x 4’ high x 24” thick slabs with rebar on 12” centers. Literally built to last a century or more …. and done purposely, since it will take several cases of dynamite to get rid of it in the event someone decides the “water feature” should go the way of the native grasses and shrubs. A small minority see the Monument as a “weed patch,” but as Oldest Dog said, “The Monument was carefully landscaped to demonstrate the diversity of fuels within the overall Great Basin ecosystem.” If anyone has the idea our Memorial should look like a manicured city park, then I and a few others have got a real problem with that.

Bill Mitchell struggled constantly with the BLM maintenance crew, who, though hard-working, seemed to have the Monument dead last on its list of a 100 priorities. They were not firefighters, and I perceived that, unlike the rest of us, they didn’t have their heart and soul into the Monument. I don’t know how many times I saw Billy out there replanting trees and shrubs that had died due to lack of a regular watering schedule, or redoing irrigation pipes incorrectly laid.

After retirement in 2000, I figured the waterfall was safe since management had decided to let it run year-round (it was truly a beautiful sight in mid-winter to see the ice sculptures that had formed, with crystal clear blue water flowing underneath the ice). I was dead wrong: someone decided to turn the pumps off one fall (2002?), but had neglected to drain either the pumps or the 2” plastic pipes buried in the concrete slabs that led up to the top pools. Predictable results: next spring there were massive leaks “somewhere in the concrete” and two broken $2500 pumps.

When asked for the design drawings for the waterfall so they could try to locate the leaks, I said, “What plans? I built this all in my head as I went.” So I asked the person what they intended to do, the reply being “we’re going to jackhammer the rock out and drill into the slabs, find them and repair them.” I was flabbergasted. This alternative would not only be a huge cost, but the guaranteed result will be a pile of rubble, and, by the way, the problem won’t be solved. If I were paranoid (grin), I’d think this solution was part of a hidden agenda to in fact get rid of the waterfall.

The easy forget is to forget about the broken plastic pipes, just disconnect them and run some flexible waterfall pipe up from the pumps, hiding the piping underneath freestanding piles of rocks. Which is what I should have done in the first place (this was my first waterfall). But who could predict someone would let 1000 gallons of water sit in pumps and pipes during the winter, freezing harder than the rocks on top of them.

I’ll know better “next time.”

Throughout the construction, I’d hear about all the politics associated with the memorial, but just ignored it and kept laying rock like a madman, sympathizing all the while with Billy and his struggles with the maintenance crew. Despite overwhelming odds, Billy and the volunteer crew made it into the incredibly beautiful place it became from 2000 until he retired. Just as someone said, every 3-4 months Laurel or Billy or Dick would organize a weekend weeding clean-up party and the job would get done.

Tonight I called Billy (since retired) to verify what I was reading here on “They Said” about the Monument. He told me the sad story of what he saw a few weeks ago after the “remodeling” had been accomplished: native shrubbery ripped out the ground, grasses raked to nothing, etc., etc. . But here’s the kicker: flat stone memorials that were associated with a tree that friends bought to honor a fallen friend had been moved to other locations away from the tree. This is outrageous!! And the pumps feeding the top of the waterfall still aren’t turned on (they did get them repaired when some politicos visited two springs ago –just wouldn’t do to have a non-functional waterfall).

Who is responsible for this outrage!!?? But let’s get beyond that. Let’s look at solutions.

One is a personal solution for the leaks in the waterfall. After retirement, and while still living in Boise, I committed several times to fix my mistake with the pipes. But “something else” always came up. Now I’ve got a good buddy named Jon Ridolfo, Sergeant Major Special Forces (RET), with whom I teach L-380. Some of you may know him – one tough son of a gun. I had offered up some bs reason for a minor omission in my L-380 presentation. He looked me right in the eye and in his inimitable New England-Lithuanian-Italian accent, said,

“You know what the maximum effective range of an excuse is, Carson?? It’s zero, I repeat, zero meters. Ya’ got that straight? And while we’re at, we don’t make minor mistakes, we don’t make major mistakes, mistakes kill. Am I making myself clear”

“Yes, sir, Mr. Ridolfo (I’d follow Ridolfo on the high road to hell and love every minute of it – though I’m pretty certain he’d leave me in the dust!!)

So in the interests of walking the walk, come September I’ll fire up the ’62 Caddy, hook on a trailer full of Colorado river rock with some flexible pipe tied to the sides with my 25-year-old cement mixer lashed to a big rock on top, and just motor on up I-70/I-15/-I84 to Boise and lay some pipe and rock. Issue identified, issue solved. Anyone care to help? E-mail me at airops@rmci.net and we’ll get this figured out. It’s simple, just do it. Bottom Line: if all you out there don’t see the pipe/pump problem solved come November ……

Larger issue: who “owns” the Memorial? I believe I’ve made my feelings abundantly clear on this question, we just need to figure out the mechanism via which we as a wildland fire community lease it for the next five centuries from the BLM caretaker.

Who’s responsible for maintaining it? We are. Pure and simple.

Regards,

Hugh Carson, President, Emergency Team Solutions, LLC

FSH 7109.19 - FLEET EQUIPMENT MANAGEMENT HANDBOOK
WO AMENDMENT 7109.19-92-9
EFFECTIVE 12/30/92

CHAPTER 60 - QUALIFICATION, TRAINING, AND TESTING
OF MOTORIZED FLEET EQUIPMENT OPERATORS

Specialized Equipment.
a. Emergency Vehicle. An emergency vehicle, other than
a law enforcement vehicle, equipped with a siren and
emergency lighting (white, red, or blue flashing lights)
used primarily to respond to emergency situations (for
example, fires, traffic accidents, and medical
emergencies).

(Doh... the FSH handbook actually mentions Forest Service vehicles being used and EQUIPPED to respond to emergency situations, ie fires, traffic accidents and medical emergencies..... WAY BACK IN 1992)

Hmmm....

Lobotomy

Dave won't get his cookies if you don't make it!

Mellie

I will pledge for one 20 person crew for Ken's run. .25 cents per mile per person =$260.00
BUT, I will need cookies. ;-) You will only need to send them when he is done and if he
makes the whole 52 miles. If he does not make the 52, I will still pay in full.

Grayback Base Manager Dave Hannibal

Ken Perry/WFF Benefit

Although I have already bought a brick in memory of my son (Matt Taylor), I am contributing again from his last FF income for the brick wall at the WWFF Monument. I am anxious to see it become a reality. Grief and gratitude find expression in tangible ways through the tireless efforts of those who are promoting the building and maintenance of these memorials and monuments. Perhaps there could be one thing more difficult than suffering the loss of a loved one, and that is having to do it alone. The connection that families have been made to feel through the Wildland Firefighter Foundation helps us realize that there are others who are missing our loved ones with us, or who may have walked through difficult times ahead of us, or may even benefit from watching our passage.

Death is always accompanied by any number of unanswered questions. However, anyone, especially the children who visit the monument and the brick wall which will surely follow, can get a few questions answered:

• Who and what do these stones represent?
• Who are we and why do we care?
• What is the 52 Club and what are all these T-shirts doing here?
• How far does this compassion spread?

Vicki, the frustration you must feel when you deal so well with the strong emotions of the families you serve on one hand, and the cold bureaucracy on the other is more than I could manage. May God bless your efforts.

Sarah Larson

Sarah, it was nice to meet you in person at the airport Firefighter Statue dedication.

As you mentioned then, we Abs also feel honored to know Vicki Minor, and to work with her and her staff on behalf of firefighters and their families. Vicki has always told me that she does what she does because it's what she feels compelled to do in the current moment. I'd say she has a "calling" and that Vicki is about "living her best life". Pettiness, jealousy, negativity -- in my experience with her -- she doesn't go there. She looks at each person and sees the best person they can be, and chooses to relate to that. Her style is not to express frustration (although many families and others are tearfully and angrily expressing it with regard to the Monument, the weed whacking of the vegetation and the brick project that has been put on hold). Vicki's words, to everyone with whom I've seen her interact, and her actions demonstrate her in-the-moment, visionary good-heartedness and belief that the best outcome will emerge. That said, I know she is a hands-on Foundation director, even down to the paint colors that create the "feel" of the WFF lobby. That kind of attention to detail creates the comfortable and soothing environment you walk into there. You can feel the lobby love while those hotshot shirts in the big room create the drama.

When I asked Vicki about bureaucracies and politics last week, the very brief reply she gave me was that "bureaucracies for the most part are made up of good-hearted, over-worked and under-appreciated people, some clearly letting their lights shine; some few others, less so." That was it. As for politics, she says "if creative people stick to vision, anything can be accomplished step-by-step."

OK, so where does that leave the Monument and the Brick project that seems to be in limbo? Dry your tears, m'dear: there is collective power here. We Abs have been hoping we'd receive clarification from NIFC about 1) what's the procedure and who is responsible for Monument maintenance and 2) why the new holdup on the placement of the bricks? That hasn't been forthcoming, so one of the Abs is actively researching the questions and has heard from many at NIFC (who desire anonymity). When Ab's questions are answered and all the facts are clear, the collective action to be taken should be clear as well. Stay tuned.

I knew somebody would know what I was talking about...

Pulaski

I have a copy of the document I believe that Pulaski is referring to regarding geographic area fuel types, fire behavior, tactics, etc. My copy does not have a publication #. Just a lengthy title. It is in a handbook format about the size of the Fireline Handbook. Here is the title

Wildfire Fuels, Strategy, Tactics with Special Safety and Logistical Concerns for the Following Areas
*Alaska
*Great Basin
*Northeast
*Pacific Northwest and Northern California
*Rocky Mountains
*Southeast
*Southern California
*Southwest
*Structures in the Wildland
*FEMA assignments
*Aviation

It is clearly not organized by GACC per se, but is designed to cover the whole country I think. The reference on the cover says "Prepared for Advanced Incident Management S-520 February 2001". It was compiled by the people at NARTC and the S-520 Steering Committee. Maybe it is available through NARTC (National Advanced Resource Technology Center) in Tucson. I can't remember exactly how I got my hands on it since I am not a S-520 grad. It has some very good information in it for "newcomers" into an area. However I look at it as kind of baseline material that should prompt even more questions for you to ask the locals when you arrive. Obviously you can't address every scenario. Even within a given geographic area there can be wide variations and special conditions that can't be covered in a single document. I believe it is a document worthy of an update and wider distribution.

Hope that helps.............speedo

All Fire Departments in the state of Colorado are being hurt by the University adding 20% to the bill they send the Feds at the end of the year, it is taking money used for equipment, training and rising insurance cost away from all of the communities in the state and then the local folks ask why they need tax bonds and other local tax hikes to keep there fire and ems departments in the black. If this is not taken care of there maybe alot of areas that emergency services are with drawn from because of the lack of funds. And people wonder why all of the fires cost so much???

Colorado Fire Chief.

There is a fire burning west of Missoula, MT. There was also a 2500 acre fire north of Great Falls, MT yesterday.

I read GGR's e-mail and it is sad when universities are taking money that they did not earn. You would think with what they charge for tuition and other things they would have enough, but I guess they need those $100,000.00 a year paychecks to make themselves feel good.

Yes GGR, it is hard being with a volunteer fire company that must go out and beg for their money so they can protect property and lives. By the way go to www.firstresponder.org they are doing grants for fire equipment for vol. fire companies. They have to be tax exempt though and their max is $2500.00, but that is better then nothing.

Cris

GGR

I never saw your email. Could'a been the spam filter. Glad you resent it. Ab.

• Product information that can be faxed or emailed directly upon request.
• Websites with current product information, pricing, and good accessibility.
• Have a person available during business hours who can answer specific questions regarding products, pricing, shipping, etc., regularly.
• If no one is available, MAKE SURE someone gets back to the customer as soon as possible, or let the customer know when someone will call them back.
• If you do business with the Federal Government, make sure you have a GSA price list for federal agencies for your products. Having the GSA rate can speed up a purchase.

When someone from a fire agency calls your business, asks for information and needs it quickly, make sure that person gets it fast. When it is time for year-end spending, there are many others competing for the same funding, and it is 'first-come, first-serve' when the product information and pricing reaches the Chief's Desk for approval.

I used to work in sales and customer service while going to school, and I know that if I am not prepared the person looking to buy is going to go somewhere else.

I hope some of you will take this to heart when you are asked for pricing and product information in the near future.

MOC4546

Thanks for the info on Canadian air drops. I've included it on the IMWTK page. I just took a moment to read back through that page. It has some interesting and random info. Anyone have more questions or info that should have a question section? Ab.

Strategy faulted in fatal wildfire
Bad escape planning, investigators conclude

And from the article, this about the entire report -- for those who wanted to read the whole thing:

"The department released only the report's executive summary. Jarvis said
private personnel information needed to be blacked out before a full
version — except for the redacted portions — is released."

Al also sent in a bunch of photos of the fire scene and the service. I'll post them soon. Thanks Al. Ab.

I'll be working on photos today and tomorrow. Thanks for the contributions and patience, especially the AK gal.

I hope everyone has a very fine day.

Be safe.
Ab.

As some folks may be aware, the ADFA is comprised of AD firefighters, both retirees and non-retirees who possess the necessary qualifications to meet supplementary incident needs when agency-employed resources are exhausted.

To date, the Type 2 AD Crew community has not been actively involved in the discussion of AD rates and treatment. Accordingly the Board has decided to attempt to fix this error of omission on our representation.

If you have read ADFA’s Briefing to Congress on the web page at www.eteamsolutions.com/adfa1/legislative/ADFAcongmedbrief.pdf, that document outlines the pay disparity between Type 2 AD crews and local-unit-organized Type 2 Crews comprised of permanent and seasonal employees hired on the GS pay scale. It is estimated that Type 2 AD crews make $23,000 less per pay period per crew than a GS crew (Appendix 6 in the referenced document). Another example of “unequal pay for equal work.”

Many of these AD crews are comprised of college students or are of Hispanic or Native American descent.

The BIA’s response to the issue of Type 2 AD Crew pay -- in an article in the Santa Fe New Mexican -- stated:

“Begay said some all-Indian crews have worked together for years on AD pay and he hasn’t heard the ground-pounding firefighters complain much about the pay.” (see the rest of the article at www.freenewmexican.com/news/13666.html).

My take on Mr. Begay’s comment is that the crews are most likely unaware of exactly how much the difference is.

$23,000 per crew per pay period is a chunk of change, particularly in less well-off communities where firefighting income is an essential source of income to get through the winter months. As an AD firefighter 1969-78, with a wife and a child, I personally found out how important this income is.

The ADFA Board has decided to add the position of National AD Type 2 Crew Representative as an appointment to our Board.

We need a highly motivated individual who is willing to communicate and coordinate with the Type 2 Crews nation-wide, including Alaska (50+ native crews). We will find you some help on this, though.

So please contact me if you fit the bill, or know of someone who does. Preferably – though it is not essential - we can find someone from the SW Geographic Area.

Part of this job will be close coordination with the Governors and Congressional delegations in states with a high percentage of AD crews.

Senator John McCain is Chair of the Indian Affairs Committee, as well as representing a high fire occurrence state. He will be key in publicizing and mobilizing support for better pay for AD line firefighters

JOB DESCRIPTION

The ADFA National AD Type 2 Crew Representative is responsible for:

1. Organizing an Outreach Program to inform Type 2 Crews of ADFA objectives and goals with regard to bettering line firefighter pay
2. Coordinating with the ADFA Media/Information Officer to develop Outreach materials, mailings, etc and publicize ADFA efforts with AD Type 2 crews
3. Recruiting AD Crew representatives in each geographic area who will visit personally with AD crews
4. Tracking membership targets with Geographic Areas
5. Reporting status of Outreach efforts to the ADFA Board

REQUIREMENTS:

• Good organizational skills in order to organize Geographic Area representatives
• Good interpersonal and communications skills
• Good verbal and writing skills

APPLICATION:

Please write a short resume in Word or reply in an short e-mail message to ADFA at adfa@rmci.net

Thanks!!!

Hugh Carson, Chair, AD Firefighters Association and AD Line Firefighter 1969-78
www.adfirefighter.org

Thanks BL. We'll post it if someone sends it in. Ab.

Abs...In my questions on 7/31 I asked if constraints were being placed on the suppression crews that hindered containment?

In the recent press releases from Blossom, I see that MIST (minimum impact suppression tactics) is being employed.

I retired from the CDF more than 10 years ago. I spent most of my 32 year career in Northern California and have worked in Humboldt, Del Norte and several other counties where the timber is tall and the hills are steep. I say that only to stop people from inferring my experience is lacking in that fuel type or terrain.

I always worked in suppression, and always fought fire on someone else's land, therefore, I did not have the luxury of modifying my tactics. That is to say that most of the time, we were committed to maximum suppression effort. Generally speaking, when modified suppression was called for, the Agency with those requirements provided the manpower and equipment and no one complained.

Times have changed, and the costs of firefighting have rocketed upward. Plus, we know there are local economic ramifications for allowing a fire to burn. Local resorts close, tourism suffers, smoke pollution occurs...lots of bad impacts. Plus, we have the added risk of uncontained fire in the wildland. I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the Biscuit Fire experience.

If the Siskiyou NF wants to let the Blossom Complex burn, or is not willing to allow a full suppression effort, why don't they simply declare the area a let burn area and bring in a WFU team? It certainly seems would be more cost effective than running a suppression effort with constraints. Do Forests use this practice to simply burn more acres and therefore get a bigger piece of the FIRE budget?

I am not demeaning the people on the ground in this message. I'm sure as you said earlier, the kids are putting forth a maximum effort. I just don't understand the policies or politics involved .

viejo

Boone

DM

That would be a good idea if people wrote in. Ab.

Our thoughts and prayers for friends and family. Ab.

It’s interesting NorthZone, how you include “open mind” and “no desire to educate closed minds” in the same sentence. Your insinuation that the Safety Summit was simply a “seminar” speaks for itself.

When chest pounding is more acceptable in your circle of “real firefighters” than education, your perspective is clear. Rock Away and keep clippin’ those coupons.

Perhaps, in all fairness, you thought I was suggesting the description of the Blossom Complex area was useless, and sharing that information served no purpose. Not at all. By contrast, insulting one another based on a lack of understanding, I believe, is.

Enjoy your retirement.

Shari

“Deep and dark green, swift and clear, icy cold and as pure as the snows from which it sprang, the river had its source in the mountain under Crater Lake. It was a river at its birth; and it glided away through the Oregon forest, with hurrying momentum, as if eager to begin the long leap down through the Siskiyous. The giant firs shaded it; the deer drank from it; the little black-backed trout rose greedily to floating flies. And in sunlit glades, where the woods lightened, the wild lilac bloomed in its marvelous profusion of color, white and purple and pink, scenting the warm drowsy air with sweet fragrance.” ~ Zane Grey - Rogue River Feud

Shari

At least it wasn't one of those XXX sites that too fast fingers can sometimes take you to. Ab.

Okay all you red, white & blue folks (green and lime green, too).. Let's dance. Put up and pledge. My honey gave me the OK for the check book. We pledged $5/ mile Also, I will send an extra $50 if the Blossom Fire gang can hook the fire before the 52 run. I have faith in the ORCA team to catch it. But I still have the OK and I will still send it anyway. Let's go! The ball is in your court...

R/L

Thanks for the glimpse of the place. Ab.

North Valley Engine Burnover
7 Miles North of Orovada, Humboldt County, Nevada
7/16/05
WID Burnover Final Report ATT 1.pdf (pdf file)

TC

Thanks TC and thanks to viejo for sending in the 24-hour narrative just after the burnover (theysaid, 7/20). Thank goodness no one was hurt in this one... I am convinced that knowing about these situations and being prepared for heavy flashy fuels has saved some lives this season.

Also, maybe enough time has passed to show this photo (sent in by Dick Mangan on 7/20) of the results of the burnover in Spain in similar flashy fuels. 11 Spanish firefighters died. I didn't want to post this earlier as people were grief-stricken and memorial services were taking place. Readers, when that report comes out, please send it in. As I understand it, the potential for changing fire behavior was determined and many firefighters were pulled off that line before the blowup, saving many lives. Our thoughts and prayers are still with the friends of the lost and their families.

Be Safe.
Ab.

photos and videos

"Life is about obstacles," Boggs said. "Our lives are not determined by what happens to us, but how we react to what happens. Not by what life brings us, but the attitude we bring to life. A positive attitude causes a chain reaction of positive thoughts."

Y'all stay safe out there
Pulaski

I do know my metric conversions... 1 kilometer= 0.62 mile. Ab.

Gina

I'm explaining so we keep this to ISSUES. I should have put in one of those <tongue firmly in my armpit> clarifications of my emotion, I guess. My point with Viejo (or anybody else) is that EXPERIENCE in your (anybody's) home environment is important in how you (or anyone) look at and criticize things. It's a good thing to keep your own (or Viejo's) perspective in mind whenever you Monday Morning Quarterback.

Before everyone in SoCal goes wild here; good grief BB get a grip <unruly tongue, slap, slap>; re-read what I said specifically to VIEJO.

"your flat so cal grasslands with roads"

Viejo's or anyone's experience in his (or anyone's) home environment with his CDF (or any agency's) methods of fighting fire don't necessarily work in other roadless AND extreme terrains (or on the moon). I know the LPF, the ANF, the BDF, the CNF have wilderness areas and mountains with limited roads. I've fought fire there too. However, CDF's tactic of going direct on fires often doesn't work in roadless vertical environments with big timber no matter how many handcrews you have. Now if we could put their (or any agency's) dozers on those vertical southern Oregon mountainsides, that might be something interesting to watch. (Sorry Ab, that just spewed out. <tongue escaped from armpit, my bad>)

Todd

haw, haw, thanks for trying. Ab.