"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
AUGUST, 2005

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8/31 Is it just me, or is the NFC site down so that I can check to make sure I got
paid when I'm out here on fires??

www.nfc.usda.gov/personal/

Thanks - Fire Bug

Later, this came in...
Ab, answered my own question...

USDA’s National Finance Center shuts down in face of Katrina

www.gcn.com/vol1_no1/technology-policy/36824-1.html

FireBug

8/31 A little help please.

I would like to read HR 408 but am unable to find it. Could someone
please help me with a link. I apologize in advance if I just overlooked
it on this site.

Thanks,
Cindersoot

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2005/hr408.htm Ab.

8/31 Just two short years ago, the FWFSA along with Congressman John Doolittle (R-CA) met with representatives of the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) to discuss proper classification for federal wildland firefighters. Ironically one of those attending was Dan Blair who requested that FWFSA Business Manager Casey Judd meet with him in Washington DC recently while Mr. Blair was Acting OPM Director to discuss HR 408. Both the FWFSA & Rep. Doolittle followed up with letters to then OPM Director Kay Coles James on the subject.

The official response from OPM on classification (review of 0462), signed by Director James stated "With respect to this series, we believe that compensation reform, rather than a revision of the classification standard, is the better approach..."

Fast forward to 2005 where HR 408, no doubt being a "compensation reform" bill, and OPM's official response is to oppose compensation reform at recent hearings while the OPM representative agrees, on behalf of OPM, to work with Congressman Jon Porter and engage in a review of classification reform.

Maybe OPM decides its strategy in dealing with pay & personnel issues depending on what day of the week it is. Heaven Help Us... Too bad... congress wants both; classification & compensation reform. That should make it easy on the Agency... nothing to oppose.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT THE FEDERAL WILDLAND FIRE SERVICE ASSOCIATION AT (916) 515-1224 OR FWFSAlobby@aol.com

IT'S YOUR FUTURE

8/31 And now a word from our sponsors. . .

Looking for Winter work? The Nature Conservancy in North Carolina is taking applications for a prescribed burn crew technician, for more information see their announcement on our Jobs Page.

Anchor Point Tools has changed their name and now sports a spiffy new website. Their new business name is Tune Wildland Fire Equipment. You don't have to remember their new website address (www.tunefire.com), just click on their ad on our Classifieds Page as always.

Initial Attack Resources is accepting applications for Engine Bosses and Engine Crewmembers. See their ad at the top of the Jobs Page.

Dedrick Fire has again dropped the asking price of an engine they are selling another $2,500 bucks. Tim says he's forced to sell, regardless of how busy this season turns out. See his ad at the top of the Heavy Equipment section of the Classifieds.
8/31 Here are some photo links from Hans W-B

Cedar Fire:

http://archive.hpwren.ucsd.edu/Photos/20031026/
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/Cedar/Images/
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/Cedar/

Last week:

http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/~hwb/20050824/

8/30 Hello Wildland Community!

As you know, Kenneth Perry's run is just a little over a week away. I am flying to CA to represent the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, not only as an avid supporter, but also as an avid mtn biker and outdoor enthusiast. I am planning to ride behind Ken offering as much support as possible, however, I'm running into a problem getting my bike over there with me without it costing an arm and a leg.

Is there anyone near Ken's route that could loan me a mtn bike? I need one that's 15-16" (I’m just 5'4" so a bit on the short side!). I fly into Burbank Friday night. Lori Greeno (an AWESOME lady!) will be meeting me at the airport and we'll be staying at the Hilton in Santa Clarita. If anyone has a bike in that area that they would be willing to let me use, they could drop it by the Hilton at any time on Friday. Ken's run starts at 7:00 a.m. on Saturday, so I definitely need it Friday night.

Thanks everyone for your support of Ken and your wonderful support of the Foundation!

Melissa Schwagerl
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
8/30 My thoughts and prayers for the thousands who are trying to survive the hurricane aftermath on the Gulf Coast.

For those of you who are called to help, and I have no doubt many will be, stay safe ya'll.

There are many hazards.
BEWARE of red ants, water moccasins (rattle snakes, coral snakes), alligators, mosquitoes with West Nile virus (take DEET), humid heat, lack of drinking water and food, lack of sanitation, downed live power lines, bubbling broken gas lines, underwater hazards that can snag a boat engine, HAZMAT on the surface of the water, burning buildings, dead bodies floating, wildlife, pets, cows, other animals including zoo animals, unstable buildings, hazard trees.

The size of this disaster is just hitting us. My personal thanks to the Fin and Feather folks with their flat boats, the Coast Guard and other SAR folks and EMTs, and to those volunteering their pirogues and other flat-bottomed vessels. For some people out there survival is a matter of getting help in the next 12 hours or breaking free of attics with rising waters. We starting to see on the news what's happening in New Orleans, Biloxi, Mobile. We don't see what's happened with the 25-30 foot storm surge in Plaquemines Parish, Saint Bernard Parish, Chalmette, Slidell, Bay St Louis, Pass Christian. I have real fears that the death toll will be astronomically high when all are tallied. I heard from a friend that a large part of Plaquemines Parish has gone back to the Gulf.

I thank the collective emergency response family for coming to help in our time of need. I hope good plans are made and the effort is coordinated. Ya'll take care, hear. God bless.

DeSotoNF

8/30 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
8/30 I am waiting for a engine assignment on a type 5 engine federal I was told
we don't get orders for those so I am pleading with anyone for severity or
otherwise order type 5's

signed waiting in R-6 !!!
8/30 From the National Fire News:

The National Interagency Coordination Center is working with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to support Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. Emergency Support Function #4 is staffed at the Regional Response Coordination Centers in Atlanta, GA and Denton, TX. Two Type 1 Incident Management Teams have been assigned. One team will establish a base camp at Port Allen, LA and the other team will be at the logistics staging area in Meridian, MS. A third Type 1 Incident Management Team will establish a base camp at Stenis NASA site in MS.

FYI...

Todd

8/30 Jackson noted (they said 8/28) Logistics Management Teams, a Planning Team, and two ERT-As are being mobilized for Hurricane Katrina relief and asked how these resources are organized and whether they were FEMA or interagency teams.

Having been on several hurricane incidents I can say with certainty I don't know for sure. From my experience, on a small storm incident, the Southern Region "fire" IMTs are staged ahead of the storm and often spend their time "supporting the team" if no real damage is done. That is, they are positioned, found to be not needed, and return home quickly (example: Hurricane Bonnie, which turned out to be a wimp sloshing ashore at level 1 and doing little damage). The whole purpose of sending them is to make sure they can travel BEFORE the storm hits and be ready to respond if needed. On Hurricane Ivan last year, the team I worked with was stationed at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida and coordinated the staging of several hundred tractor trailers with various relief supplies. We had ice, generators, tarps, etc. As other agencies needed supplies, we sent them out by the truck load. That is, the Red Cross might have a center needing a couple trailers of ice in a small town and we would send a couple trucks their direction. The exact use of a team varies with incident. The ordering of 5 crews is a surprise, as in the past few if any crews have been used.

I think the "Logistic Management Teams" are identical to IMT (Incident Management Teams). The ICs are Custer and Prevey for the "LMTs" (per "they said" on 8/28). The ICs listed in the national situation report IMTs are listed as Custer, Quisenberry, and Pincha-Tulley. I think Prevey and Quisenberry work on the same team (I've been on their team in the late 1990s). Translation? LMT = IMT.

A planning team is probably just the planning portion of an IMT, but I'm guessing. On these incidents (like the World Trade Center), lines of command between FEMA and the IMT tend to remain fairly distinct though roles change. FEMA deals with their folks and R8 teams care for their own, with high level inter-group communications mostly at the IC level from a fire perspective. At the WTC incident, the IMT was supporting supply caches and planning ONLY as their primary function, for example. We planned for most non-IMT-group organizations in preparing shift plans for basically all work at the site AND maintained our supply units. But we had no operations, food, or many other "normal" units. Red Cross fed us, for example, so the entire team was not needed.

Another point. FEMA doesn't usually use trainees, but depends on fire incidents to train folks; few people outside the core team are usually called up as single resource. FYI.

Sedgehead.
8/30 Attached is a letter from Congressman Jon Porter, Chairman of the Federal Workforce & Agency Organization subcommittee who heard testimony on HR 408 earlier this month, to the director of the Office of Personnel Management as a follow-up to his commitment at the hearings to address the issue of proper classification for federal wildland firefighters.

This is not the first attempt to get OPM to address the issue of proper classification for federal wildland firefighters. However it is the first time a committee chairman has gone on the record making such reform one of his priorities.

For years, the Forest Service has said that OPM would not address the classification issue whereas OPM has said they'd do whatever the land-management agencies want them to do. It simply boils down to getting these agencies off their duff, stop suggesting that our firefighters don't do any fire related activities during the off-season and properly classify them as wildland firefighters.

Should you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at FWFSAlobby @ aol.com or (916) 515-1224.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
8/30 Readers, Participants and Supporters:

Thanks for passing the word on Ken's run in firecamp! The pledge list is increasing as run time nears! Please pledge!

Ab.

8/30 Rambob,

You are right...........It is highly unlikely you/I will ever see a "national" IM Team on an ODF fire. Why? The landowners (Private, Industrial, Contract and others) pay an assessment to the Oregon Department of Forestry and several Fire Protection Associations to provide fire protection services on their property. When there is a fire on their lands they want/expect to see the Department, that they are paying, providing the Incident Management on their lands. ODF makes every effort to meet those expectations.

ODF has 3 Incident Management Teams, although it is rare for all 3 teams to be managing fires at the same time, it has happened in the not too distant past. I suppose under that scenario you could see a "federal" IM Team (most likely a Type II) managing a fire on ODF protected lands. However, there would be a strong ODF presence with single resource OH involved in many of the operations positions.

OrFF (Not to be confused with Oregon FF - 2 different individuals)

8/29 From JS:

CAJON PASS - A crash involving a boat-towing pickup truck and a fire engine shut down Interstate 15 Sunday and injured five firefighters responding to a brush fire. The collision occurred at 1:26 p.m. on the northbound side of the freeway at the base of the Cajon Pass....

A U.S. Forest Service firefighter, Jason Megowen, was airlifted to Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. After regaining consciousness, he appeared fine, said Forest Service spokeswoman Ruth Wenstrom. Another Forest Service firefighter, Travis Thogmartin, and three county firefighters Chad Patterson, Don Hulquist and Juan Deleon suffered minor injuries, she said. One of the county firefighters was thrown into oncoming traffic, said county fire Battalion Chief Gary Bush.

See full story: www.sbsun.com/news/ci_2981894

8/29 SoCal CDF

From the hotlist forum and appears to be true:

ALRAY Incident, is the correct spelling, an engine was struck,
two FF's transported. Reported to be doing well.

Ab.

8/29 I have a pic from the Mail Tribune I did not know if you need permission or not to post it? It is a very nice shot of tanker 62 on IA of the Jack Springs fire in Southwest Oregon.

I would also like to post a kudos to the Rogue River Severity Task Force that IAed Deer Creek with me. They stepped up to a important task (Structure Protection) and completed it with no homes lost, also to Rogue River Hotshots who, in my opinion, did a big part with the 4 dozers the first night in tying in alot of line on Divs B.

JS

Hi JS, nice pic, but we would need permission. Ab.

8/28 I just wanted to send out my heartfelt best wishes for those in New Orleans and surrounding areas as Katrina nears! This looks like a truly scary, once in a lifetime storm, I am worried the devastation will be unimaginable. All those folks in the Superdome scare the heck out of me. Two Type 1 teams are heading to MS and one to FL. If you head down on overhead or crew, be safe everybody!

Ken, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother...........

Information Diva
8/28 Could someone in the know confirm or disconfirm engine accident in SoCal
(I-15 at Hwy 138 ) as soon as it's possible. There are lots of rumors flying
around.

SoCal CDF

8/28 I see from today's Southern Area Coordination Center Morning Report that "Logistics Management Teams", a "Planning Team", and two "ERT-As" are being mobilized for Hurricane Katrina. These are new resources to me. Does anyone know if they are strictly FEMA resources or are they put together from the wildland fire agencies? And, what are their roles and functions?

>From the SACC Morning report, August 28:

"The Marietta Mobilization Center is being opened today, and the Red and Blue Type 1 IMTs will be reporting there tomorrow by 1800. The 2 Logistics Management Teams (LMTs) currently in place are being relocated: Custer’s LMT-A is moving to Mississippi tomorrow, while Prevey’s LMT-B is moving to Tallahassee. An additional LMT has been ordered for Alexandria, LA. FEMA is placing an order for 5 Type 1 Crews, and more requests are anticipated. A long-term Planning Team is operating in Orlando.

2 ERT-As are set up – one each in Alabama and Florida, while the USFS is also staffing an ESF4 function at the RRCC in Atlanta (Days – L. Howard and J. Caffin, Nights – S. Weaver and S."

Jackson

8/28 A clarification on the Deer Creek Fire:

Anderson's Team under the Unified Command is an (OSFM) Oregon State Fire Marshall's Team "not" the National PNW Team 3. It is very common to form a unified command with the OSFM when structures are involved and the governor invokes the "Conflagration Act" which makes it possible to bring in structural fire fighting departments from around the state to assist in the fire fighting effort. It is also common to ask for FEMA funding under the same scenario. This is definitely not a first! At least not in the state of Oregon.

The forecasted weather will be a test for all fire lines today and tomorrow. A dry cold front with low humidity, gusty and erratic winds.

OrFF
8/28 Resp to Mellie's Unified Command - Deer Cr Fire

Anderson's IMT is the State Conflagration Structural resources IMT, not the PNW T1 IMT. I'll chug a gallon of silvex the day ODF puts a 'Fed T1 IMT' on one of their fires.

FEMA Declared fires are common: Especially in places where there is little or no other way to tap other Fed $$ (and if structures are involved/threatened).

RAMBOB
8/28 Thanks Fish. Interesting reading. I see it's not PNW Team 3 but a
structure-oriented combined team.

I haven't seen such web pages before... More to learn.

Implication... It ain't real to me until it hits the web???

Mellie

8/28 Mellie,

The FEMA assistance is in the form of a FMAG. (Fire Management Assistance Grant) FMAGs can only be applied for when there are structures threatened. Here's a link which further explains the process. http://tinyurl.com/7cwmh

In California, the OES rep usually helps the local agency fill out the application. The application is then run through OES, and then through FEMA. Here's the process. http://tinyurl.com/cvy86 The catch is that structures have to be actually threatened when the FEMA folks in DC (Da Capitol) are reviewing the application.

Here's the link to the worksheet, revised 2005 in case anyone has the old one: http://tinyurl.com/8oezq.

Fish
8/28 Harding and Manton Fires:

Congratulations to the Men and Women who corralled those incidents.

Both are excellent examples of good aggressive fire fighting.

viejo

The weather has cooperated up until now... However, neither of those fires are reported as completely contained and there's a RED FLAG WARNING for this afternoon. Although they are mopping up, there could still be rollout that gets fanned by the winds in some of the steep areas. Be Safe. Maintain situational awareness. Ab.

8/28 Here's an interesting development in the larger scheme of things.

The Deer Creek Fire (Near Cave Junction OR) is under unified command --

State of Oregon www.oregon.gov/OOHS/SFM/Conflagration_Info.shtml
and Anderson's Type I PNW Incident Command Team 3,

but in addition to that, it has been declared a FEMA fire...
www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=4785

Hmmm, that must be a first. Is this suggestive of things to come?

Speaking of FEMA, my best wishes to those facing the hurricane in New Orleans
and the surrounding Gulf Coast area. Camille was pretty bad and we didn't have a
direct hit on N.O. on that one. Katrina has sustained winds of 175 mph now (Category 5).
The levees are unlikely to survive the storm surges. There aren't too many highways
heading north or west. For sure the causeway across Lake Ponchartrain will be
closed in high winds. Recipe for disaster... LCES! BE SAFE ALL!

Mellie

8/27 Ab,

Thanks to Casey and everyone else for their help on the portal to portal issue, I know one of these days Fed wildland firefighters will receive it.

As an ex-Fed Engine Foreman, my family qualified for food stamps and my kids qualified for free school lunches. I was too proud to participate in these programs (no my kids did not starve), but it sure was tough if fire season was slow. That was 23 years ago, I left the green (fed) and took the opportunity to wear a blue shirt (local government) so that my family would not have to struggle during slow years.

According to the info that Lobotomy provided us, not much has changed over the years financially for the Fed family. You guys deserve more!!!

In regards to the turnover of federal employees, I have to say it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, my agency has been the beneficiary of numerous rookies coming in with years of hotshot, helitack and engine experience. We are proud of the caliber of ex-fed employees that we hire, year in and year out. Not only are these individuals experienced firefighters, but most end up being future officers and leaders.

Good luck,
Yellow Angel
8/27 Tram Cam is starting to pickup a little smoke on the BDF fire (Blaisdell Fire).

www.pstramway.com/cams-weather/cams-detail.html

CDF Jake

8/27 The 209 shows ODF taking over management of the fire yesterday morning.

Looks like it's being managed almost exclusively with private resources. 725 of 872
personnel are private with 70 state of Oregon overhead.

SoCal CDF

8/27 Anyone have word on the Deer Creek Fire? I heard there's a
cold front s'posed to go through today perhaps with erratic
winds.

OR firefighter

www.nwccweb.us/information/fire_info.asp Ab.

8/27 Here's info on the Harding Fire on the Tahoe NF. Sinclears Norcal I team
is managing it. http://inciweb.org/incident/148/

Tahoe Terrie

8/27 Re: 52 club ultra-run

Hello,

First wanted to say thanks to GIS Girl for the maps. Pretty cool, and much better than the hand drawn one.

I am out of the loop right now in a little town on Lake Chapala, Mexico called San Antonio. Wish I could say I was on vacation. Unfortunately My Mother passed away Monday morning. I am still training high in the central mountains. Nothing like Thunder and lightning inside the bowl of an extinct volcano. The tropical humidity is something I'm surely not used to, either.

Anyway.....Tony D, I had planned on getting ahold of you when I came back from Reno for Mandatory days off. I have no cell coverage here, and unfortunately your number is in my phone sitting on the counter at home. If you've got some interesting stuff, you can get my E-mail address from Ab.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE PLEDGED. IT SEEMS TO BE SPEEDING UP AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE DAY.

See ya,
KCP

Sorry about your mom. I'd be happy to pass any messages along. Folks make those pledges. Ken Perry/WFF Benefit Ab.

8/26 Well I also just got back from the Blossom complex. Being a Southwest firefighter I'm used to hills at elevation, but not darn near cliffs with that tangled mess underneath it.

I agree with Misery Whip that is a heck of a combination of terrain and fuels. Just try mopping up trying to hold on to a branch with one hand while you dig with the other one. Our crew hiked one hill there that was totally amazing, and almost straight up. Don't know how they actually cut the line down it as it was barely safe to climb or descend with a full pack and you needed your tool to HELP slow you down in places.

Hobo

8/26 Fire rippin' in norcal began 1500, near Manton (TGU, Tahama Co into Shasta Co),
10 homes lost. Check the hotlist.

SoCal CDF

You can see it here http://newweb.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/ click Eureka then animation and look for the little rising column at the Shasta and Tahama Counties' shared border. Ab.

8/26 Ab.

I read a few days ago about Ernie Johnson's passing on. My eyes welled
up with tears as I read about the people I knew who were there to meet the
plane in Shelton and what was said. I echo all those and add that the
world and fire fighting community was a better place by his presence in it,
and a poorer place in his absence. I worked for 9 seasons on the Quilcene
Ranger District, and started as an 18 year old firefighter the same year
and age Ernie did. I remember burning slash with him, working on helitack,
fighting fires with him, learning from him. The longer I work in this
agency, the more I come to appreciate people like Ernie, a person of
integrity, a great fireman, good teacher, good leader. I am a witness to
a part of his legacy and am proud to be a part of it. thank you Ernie, you
are missed.

Lance Honda

8/26 Ab,

You betcha the practice of not being at the dispatch location and using an address as a shill was a big problem and still might be a problem in some areas. I personally think those type of violations or misleading actions should result in severe punishment... maybe a trip down the Rogue River with Viejo? I can see your point that this latest round of actions for permit failures may have a more positive effect by keeping everyone honest and move the industry forward as a safer and more professional resource. In a position to see the documentation, between the scammers and those caught in the bureaucratic permitting process, I guess I didn't want to see otherwise good contractors to be lumped in with those contractors that outright falsified dispatch locations in an attempt to gain more work. Not complying with the contract is wrong.. and that's the bottom line. Thanks ab for the clarification and the comments you included in my post.

Oliver

8/26 Ab,

Catching up on They Said, just got back from the Blossom Complex. Toughest combination of terrain & fuels of any fire I ever saw. Two weeks ago, I put our chances of hooking it at about 50 percent. Containment acreage was about 15,000 acres.

Viejo, Are you still flapping about Blossom? Most wise They Said posters admit when they are wrong and eat crow if they deserve it. If you still feel this fire has been a boondoggle, I'll make you an offer: I'll give you $100 if you can travel on foot from Rogue River Ranch to Hanging Rock in three days time. Google up a topo map of the Wild Rogue Wilderness and scope it out. It is only about three miles as the crow flies, a mile a day should be easy, eh? See all those squiggly lines on the topo map? You'll be glad to know that most of the Wild Rogue Wilderness is covered with dense 15' brush and old growth Doug Fir and Cedar. The brush will give you something to cling to as you develop a better understanding that a slow ROS doesn't mean squat in that topography.

The FAA Administrator, That is the funniest damn thing I've read in awhile, I about hurt myself laughing! You have to be a pilot. I think there is a promising career ahead for you in government, you speak bureaucratic gibberish quite well.

Casey, Many of us feds appreciate your tenacity and support what you are trying to do for wildland firefighters. I don't know you personally, but I know you well enough from your postings to say that I would trust you more than OPM when it comes to doing the right thing for us. Keep slugging, keep explaining, it is nice to know that you are out there tackling these issues. We will never get what we deserve without a dedicated person leading the charge for us. Keep it up.

Julie's tribute to Ernie Johnson was touching. I didn't know Ernie but it is obvious he was well loved. It is always sad when we lose one of the good ones.

Misery Whip

I thought the FAA Administrator post was a spoof making the rounds behind the scenes, although it came in from 2 different regular, credible posters. Wow, if that's for real, we're in trouble! Ab.

8/26 NOPSer

I had our IQCS person try to put READ into IQCS. Would not take
it..................... It is on a hardcopy list we got as an approved
position, however it is still not in IQCS.

TC

8/26 Hi all-

There were a few questions on the hot list forum about where current fires
are in comparison to historical fires. I would l just like to remind
everyone that numerous fire perimeters for California's jurisdiction are
posted on the California Fire Planning and Mapping Tools site.

If you want to look at fire history you can turn it on (check the box)
under the fuels section in the layers (right side).
If you make the fire history active (press the radio- circle button next
to the check box) you can use the identify button on the left to tell
you the name, year, acres, etc of the fire.
If there is not a fire perimeter loaded yet under the active fire
section in the layers you can turn on the Thermal MODIS (satellite) data
and it will give you a pretty good idea of where the fire has burned in
the last 12 or 24 hours or is actively burning.
If you have a GIS person they can download the data with the download
button on the left and make maps with their own data.

If you have any questions please feel free to e-mail or call. This is our
first year for the site and although there are growing pains we feel it is
a great success.
This is a California Fire Alliance project with the USGS.

Smiles,
Victoria Smith
GIS Lead- Branch of Fire and Aviation
Bureau of Land Management, California State Office
voice 916.978.4428
vcsmith @ ca.blm.gov (separated to prevent spam spiders from harvesting it)

Member 84 of the 52 Club, Wildland Firefighter Foundation

Wow, very impressive and useful to have historical fire information. I've added this site to the maps list on the News page. (I like the WFF member # note at the bottom of your email.) Ab.

8/26 I'm not sure that I'm ready to take my hat off to NWSA or Joe S for that matter... Not that I have anything against the organization or the individual... but it seems to me that more significant suspensions of contracts have taken place this year and last year with regard to performance and training issues. Unless I'm missing something these latest rounds of suspensions deal with whether the contractor had a permit from the local government to use the location as a place of business. I suspect a whole bunch of small business is run from homes without a permit to use the property as a place of business. Don't take this post wrong... This permit failure is still a contract violation but In my mind not as significant or as important as performance on the line or failure to meet experience and training requirements... and certainly shouldn't be used to define the success or failure of local politicians or contract crews.

This following type of recent contract crew suspension is far more significant to me as a fire fighter than the permit issue.

Example:
On 8/19/05 Plans & Operations for the Blossom fire demobilized crew number <snip> for cause. That cause being the judgment call that placed a crew down hill from a falling operation closer than the industry standard for safety would allow. There is a question of the level and responsibility of crew supervision at the time of Incident involving safety concerns.

I found the article in the Bend newspaper interesting in a political sense and was surprised to learn that one of the contractors who contributed to the article and defended the suspension actions had 3 of his own crews suspended for the following reasons: On 8/23/2005 the Oregon Department of Forestry received confirmation from the City of Redmond, Oregon that your company does not have the applicable business license for the Designated Dispatch Location offered in your solicitation response to the 2005 Interagency Firefighting Crew Agreement.

My personal opinion with regard to the how and why now aspect of the meetings, discussions and letters is one of doubt and I'm left with a feeling that as long as there is money politicians will find a way to protect their own assets.

Oliver

Oliver, what you say about some folks operating out of their homes may be true, but it is definitely not the whole story. Behind the scenes for the last several years we have gotten emails from a variety of people that certain OR contractors were purposefully setting up false locations to get around the "no more than an hour away" (or whatever it was) requirement. Generally such posts do not see the light of day because we can't absolutely confirm (don't have research staff to confirm) their veracity, so we're not willing to post them. That said, the discrepancy between professed resource location and actual location - sometimes tens or a hundred miles away - could have been a safety issue in some instances. And we did encourage people to go through whatever channels were available to them to make the problem known. I think we're seeing some of the results of that process. This is simply one aspect of becoming a professional and safe private sector fire force, in my opinion. When contractors who have done this understand they will now have to follow the rules, they will. This clarity of contract benefits all of us. Ab.

8/26 Thanks, Casey.

Several people have posted about firefighters being brothers and sisters, and that we should all get along just like family. If that's true, then we're doing just fine.

We may bicker and disagree and squabble and get pissed off at our siblings. At times, we may not share our toys. We may complain about who doesn't share equally in the chores, or who gets more for an allowance, or who has the later curfew.

What's important is that, in times of real need, we will also be there to support and encourage one another.

vfd cap'n
8/26 JR,

Here's a very brief answer...

Portal to portal will be paid when an employee, as defined, responds to an Emergency Incident and that incident exceeds 24 hrs. When we originally drafted the bill, we literally listed every conceivable response we could think of before settling for "emergency incident."

Given that prescribed burns are "planned" they would not constitute an emergency incident... unless the fire got away and started a bigger, longer incident. Of course as I've mentioned, we are working on getting hazard pay for firefighters on prescribed burns.

With respect to severity details, if an engine is sent anywhere for 60-90 days, that is not an emergency incident and thus each period away from your duty station exceeding 24 hrs would not incorporate portal to portal pay.

However, the issue deserves looking at...perhaps some type of additional per diem etc. If anyone wants to contact me personally and give me a bit of instruction on severity details I can review the issue with the FWFSA Board of Directors for guidance and perhaps develop some ideas.

Casey

8/26 Casey,

Over the years, I've heard a lot of talk about portal to portal when fire fighters are dispatched to fires. I am curious to know if this will cover severity details. A lot of full time, year round firefighters depend on these details to make ends meet at home, to fill unfunded work days, and to work on trainee positions. Normally we have our details preplanned in the winter months, so that when summer comes around we head west. Most of the areas I've detailed, cannot afford to bring and engine in for 60-90 days paying portal to portal. I know that my Forest does not have enough funds to do this. I've also done several Rx burn details too, will these have to be paid as portal to portal also? I am all for being paid what we are worth, but I guess I want to know what effect this will have in the long run?

JR

8/26 Abs,

Thanks for bringing together the links to gather info on breaking fires. I use Hot list and post there. The GACCS are also providing more real time news & notes (good job usfs northops), I like the firemaps link on the news page too. Thanks for adding the new map showing the S OR fire last night. That was great. WildCAD is getting better but should be set up and maintained more outside of CA. I also like tuning in on the scanner list sometimes. The Redding CA scanner site tends to get shut down when a fire ignites around Shasta, but that's not surprising. What about web cams?

Anyway, thanks. Information is valuable.

Todd

You're welcome. Web cams are sometimes useful, for example the hpwren site, but it's limited to socal. If anyone has more ideas or links to suggest for any kind of fire news, let us know. Ab.

8/26 The Region 5 Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program
announcement has been extended to September 16.

-Cara

Here's the link: www.wfap.net/recruitment.html

8/26 NorCal Capt>

Your reference to the GEL Drop on the Spruce Fire and the Ukiah AAB is interesting. Where was the Spruce Fire? There is no record at Ukiah AAB of dropping Gel on this Incident. By chance did you get a Tanker Tail number? It may have come out of Hollister or Columbia AAB. This is good information as with Long Term Retardants or any other product, quality control is a must in order to improve the product or the delivery method.

LW

SPRUCE (CA-LNU-5590) from wildcad. Ab.

8/26 Elkski

A Resource Advisor is "READ" and is being used. It is not even one of the
new ones that have come out over the last few year. Problem with "THSP" is
you cannot get legal credit for an assignment in the IQCS system if you go out
as a THSP. Where you can if you go out as a READ.

The current rate for an AD READ is AD-5 at $24. If a trainee, then $3 dollars
less than that. (Same as for any trainee AD-5)

NOPSer

8/26 Joe Hickey,
I was not saying that the product does not have uses, what I was saying is I was not impressed at all. I have seen the blow torch test and the WUI uses but as far as aerial use, I am NOT a FAN...

The smell I was referring to is a distinct smell, that to myself and crew was very different to all of US!

Also as far as being hit by the tanker is this: I am not a SMURF nor tend to want to be one. And as for that matter I do not think it is a smooth flowing gel it is thick and clotted. Been hit by that before and maybe you have not but 140 mph fast balls kinda hurt.

Last but not least " I hope" I am not bagging on your product I just believe that it has its place and I do not think tankers are its place, maybe helitankers but not fixed wing.

I am sorry if this angers anybody but hey get on a fire with this stuff and see what you think.

Norcal Capt

Ps AB I still say this stuff smells funny....
8/25 New fire taking off near Grant's Pass Oregon reported on the Hot List.

http://newweb.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/

Click Medford then click animation. It's getting dark fast, but check the plume!

R6 FF

8/25 Ab, here's what I got on the recent PNW crew suspensions. R6 FF

08-24-05
Talking points regarding the Central Oregon fire crew suspensions

1. ODF suspended nine private contract fire crews Aug. 16 for failing to have Deschutes Co. business permits for their dispatch locations there.

2. We were notified of this violation of county ordinance by the Deschutes Co. Board of Commissioners.

3. In February 2005, we sent out a bid solicitation to fire crew contractors. The contractors were required to sign and return it by March 4. The document stated that they must have business permits for their dispatch locations, if so required by local governments.

4. Under the contract (Interagency Crew Agreement administered by ODF for the Pacific Northwest Wildfire Coordinating Group), a dispatch location must be a physical site (not a P.O. box) where a fire crew can assemble and be inspected. It is a place of business; therefore, local governments can require a business permit or license.

5. In mid-July, we also suspended six crews in Medford for failure to have business licenses for their dispatch locations in that city. Most of the crew contractors subsequently applied or the licenses with the city and received them in a week to 10 days. We then immediately reinstated the crews whose contractors had obtained their business licenses. (Deschutes Co. has said their processing time on a permit application is six to eight weeks or longer.)

6. The loss of the nine central Oregon crews still leaves us with more than 200 crews on contract. Barring an extreme event, such as a large-scale dry lightning storm, we think that we have an adequate number of crews to get through the season.

8/25 Snapper:

The concept of portal to portal is relatively simple. We recognize that currently, the law guarantees a minimum of 8 hours of pay per day although most shifts stretch to 10-14. Of course the balance of that 24 period is a non-pay status.

The land management agencies have advanced the idea of 24 hr pay for years but with the idea that the 24 hr. pay would all be at base pay and hazard pay would be eliminated. Lousy idea!

When we originally drafted the bill, we envisioned 8 hrs of base pay and 16 hours of FLSA OT at time and a half. Hazard pay would be separate and continue to be earned as now. Even our friends in congress said that might be hard to sell.

So to a degree, we compromised. If we look strictly at a 24 hour period, the idea behind HR 408 would be that the first 8 hours would be at base pay, the "2nd" eight hours would be at FLSA OT of time and one half, and the remaining 8 hours, currently generally spent in a non-paid status, would be paid at the base hourly rate. No change to the earning of hazard pay would occur.

In other words, the hours that you now spend in a non-pay status would, under HR 408, be paid at base pay.

Hope that makes it clear although there have been so many "experts" on HR 408 lately posting here, maybe I'm the only one who doesn't know what it does... even though I helped write the darn thing.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me.

For all of you, I want you to know that I had a nice chat with vfd cap'n this morning. I hope he came away with a better understanding of our position as an Association and I do appreciate and understand his concerns about the "militia."

I think it would be helpful to hear from those that consider themselves "militia" as to why their numbers have been on the decline in recent years. Much of the commentary to that end comes as a result of families of two-wage earners, not wanting that time away from each other or children... heck, they already have a job, why spend days away from one's family without pay and benefit of special retirement provisions for federal firefighters.

Further, the multi-taskings as I call it, some others call it All-Risk of our federal wildland firefighters has become as dynamic as any other firefighter in the country. Thus their "off-season" no longer fits the description of Forestry Technician, but rather firefighter. Their off-season time is spent training, planning and preparing for fire season along with vehicle and equipment maintenance, just like any other full time firefighter. So when you look at the "militia" and their collateral firefighting duties being performed for 3-4 months of the year as compared to firefighters who perform tasks associated with fire suppression and prevention, management, preparation, auto accidents, HAZMATS etc., all year long, the argument of "equity" with respect to HR 408 may not be as viable as some people think.

However, that debate is not for me. If there are militia out there that want an incentive to respond to fires, I would suggest researching a Federal Circuit Court of Appeals case, Felzien v. Office of Personnel Management (Fed. Cir. 4-17-91). You do the research but I'll offer a glimpse of the case.

The Court constructively redefined "primary firefighter." This was a significant departure from the rather limited definition of firefighter that OPM had been applying to determine which employees were eligible for early firefighter retirement.

The decision should have opened the door to early firefighter retirement for hundreds of federal employees who "serve in support roles on fires."

The Circuit court emphatically rejected OPM's arguments in the case and found instead that the Appellant's service as a Forest Service Electronics Technician (Boy the FS sure likes that word Technician) was qualifying experience as a "primary firefighter" even though the Appellant did not personally extinguish fires and irregardless of the fact that the Appellant's official position did not say or imply that his primary duty was firefighting.

There vfd cap'n...I've done something for the militia. They can either get their union to address the issue or join the FWFSA and we'll handle it. Heck we're the only one's doing anything anyway.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
8/25 Robert,

It is at your fingertips. This site, hit Links then hit "training and education" and you are there -
at NWCG Taskbooks. It is amazing how a little surfing can release the stress and strands of
day to day life...

Enjoy, stay safe and walk tall,
Arlo

8/25 Good to know some of the background and successful use of blue gel in other areas.
Thanks for the info. I'm still wondering how it works: what makes it a better mousetrap?

Still Out There as an AD
8/25 Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs) is a cancer causing byproduct of grilling in the
surface layer of grilled meat. One of the health recommendations for preventing formation
of PAHs is to marinate meat for 30 minutes or more. Effective marinade for meat can be
as simple as 1 beer + 1 cup orange juice + 1/4-1/2 cup soy sauce (or you can leave out
the beer). Barbeque sauce alone doesn't work.

Mellie

8/25 Re Thermo Gel

Thermo Gel has been used in aerial drops in Washington State on BIA fires with great success. It not only hangs on that canopy but also coated fine fuels in the forest floor when used with the proper viscosity. When the NorCal Captain said he was on the active flank and was just about hit with gel, good thing he missed us, I too ask him WHY? I have worked with the product in the past and have had it on my person repeatedly with no side effects. The fact is it was not dropped on you and you were not affected by any results of such a drop. I find it interesting that you say it "was chunky and too thick to coat the vegetation". The make up of the product does not lend itself to be "Chunky". I am also not sure what you mean by kind of weird smelling. First are you just used to the strong smell of the long term retardant when it takes your breath away? What have you been doing for the last 10 years when you have been inhaling the long term retardant? I have worked with Thermo Gel and have found the odor to be inert. I work with a group of 6 private contractors who have been trained to apply Thermo Gel and none of them are aware of your weird kind of smell situation. The comment made about the product staining is also interesting because I have personally sprayed my truck with Thermo Gel, put a blow torch to it and then rinsed it off with NO ill effects

Thermo Gel has been tested by the US Forest Service at a great expense to the company and the Forest Service has found it to be environmentally friendly and non toxic. After working with this product as well as a number of the other unapproved gel products on the market today, I have found that it is easy to work with, effective and easy to clean up. Thermo Gel did not just appear last week. Thermo Gel is the result of years of study and testing and modifications. The product has been approved by MTDC in Missoula and meets all of the forest service requirements set regarding fish, water and wildlife. These comments coming from the NorCal Captain and the guinea pig seem to be coming from someone with another agenda.

The reason the CDF is willing to use this product is because it works

The reference to Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) is an interesting one because it insinuates that Thermo Gel introduces them into the fire situation, when in fact the PAHs already exist due to the wildfire itself. If you go to the website recommended by guinea pig, you will find that PAHs are found in all foods that are grilled. and if you contact Thermo Gel directly, you will be told that the amount of PAH produced is the equivalent of a cooked piece of meat.

I agree that this is a new way of fighting fire but I ask that we just wait and see how effective it is, how safe it is, and how in the long run it will do more to protect firefighters than harm them.

Joseph P Hickey
Wildfire Defense Systems

8/25 Casey

What is the general breakdown on portal to portal. Is it base 8's for 24
hours or a combination of overtime and hazard pay? I get good humor out of
listening to folks that make loads of money, stay in motels belittle FEDs
for wanting to make maybe up to half what they make. Up here in Montana we
use CDF about once a decade and when our finance folks see how much they
cost the shock usually lasts another decade.....

Snapper

8/25 Howdy Abs!

Outsider looking in,

CDF FFI employees work a 96 hour work week. 4-24 hour days. However, they are only paid for 19 of those 24 hours, they cannot leave the station in the evening.

If the FF has their sleep interrupted after midnight, they are credited for 5 hours overtime.

Some FFs working in a busy Schedule A house may get 20 hours of OT per shift as they are up on calls more often then their peers in the Schedule B houses.

If those same FFs are on an incident or out of county on fires or covering other CDF stations, they are paid 24 hours a day; I am not sure of their hourly rate.

My FF got his sleep interrupted both nights I was on duty, and it happened to him on the other shift as well so he will have a good OT check!

We don't have a work day per-se, 0800 to 1700 is typical, my house runs all day and all night so we are some what more easy going compared to other stations that are typically not as busy.

I hope this answers your question, there are a ton of rules regarding FF overtime, the above is a nut shell answer and pretty much hits the high-lights.

Captain Emmett
CDF
8/25 There's a plant with purple flowers (called Poodle-dog Bush) that has popped up in
areas in SoCal that were burned in the 2003 fires. Contact with the plant causes
poison oak-like symptoms to the skin - itching, irritation, swelling, blistering. Symptoms
may not show up for 12 to 36 hours after contact and the plant is not immediately
painful to the touch. As with poison oak, avoid all contact - including touching, smelling
flowers, and breathing particulate matter.

Photos

SoCal CDF

8/25 Re Blue Gel

The Missoula center tests Foams, Retardants, and Water Additives for both environmental impact and for corrosiveness to magnesium. The CDF staff toxicologist has given the o.k. as far as impact on humans. The USFS (Missoula) has approved Thermo Gel for use, the issue is not the product or the environment, or toxicology, but the fact that the USFS does not have a policy for its use. The science is approved but not the policy. Once the policy is written, the USFS will be able to use Thermo Gel. Thermo Gel is approved for use in California and South Dakota. The material used in ThermoGel is a cousin to the material found to hold moisture in baby diapers...

f/f4

8/25 Hats off to Joe Stutler and the NWSA.

Please sign me: Oregon Rose

8/25 Boy you folks better read this, talk about hot.....

www.bendbulletin.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=17620

Doc

Posters have been clamoring for years that managers tighten up the permitting of fire crews and do some checking up. I wonder if Chuck Burley or one of his staff reads theysaid??? Ab.

8/25 I have long sought an answer to this, and so far been unable to acquire such information. My question is, How much does an entry level CDF firefighter make per hour? I have heard that one earns about $2400 per month. But that is including a guaranteed 96 hours of overtime in that time period! (So overtime pay is tallied toward that sum, correct?) Another question is, what is a CDF work day? 600-1800, 600-2000, or someother shift? If someone could answer these questions I would appreciate it.

A comment about the discussions that have transpired on TheySaid of late.
It does not matter what agency that one works for, whether it is municipal, state, federal, contract, volunteer or another. You are all public servants, therefore it is your duty to serve the public, whether it is in suppression of fires, caring for an injured individual, etc. The general public does not know the difference between one and the other, they see a person in uniform acting as a professional firefighter. They do not know the limits of one agency and what they can and can not do. You are there to help them. In the end you all work side by side, and hopefully on the fireline or the medical aid you handle yourselves with mutual respect, and professionalism better than you do on TheySaid. You are all experts in a field that few dare to venture, be proud of that.

Outsider looking in.

Hmmmm, and I thought posters were fairly restrained for this time of the fire season. There certainly has been good information shared and a variety of viewpoints on issues. I know discussion is good when I find myself agreeing with one poster then another, as alternative viewpoints are argued and additional issues are raised.

As always, I thank contributors for participating with good questions, answers, information and perspectives. I learn something new almost every day. Probably for a lot of casual non-firefighter readers, a lot of this back-and-forth goes over your head... Ab.

8/25 --elkski

As far as I know, there is no specific code for resource advisor, we use
Technical Specialist (THSP) on our forest for them.

TC
8/25 Hey Ab, have you seen this? Thought it might be something to share with the gang.

FirenWater

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: AD Firefighter Association
To: AD Firefighter Association
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: ADFA Update: ADFA Board Members Meet With Idaho Delegation Staff

Dear ADFA Member:

Hugh Carson (ADFA Chair), Dick Grace (Vice-Chair), and Carl Pence (Legislative Affairs) met for 1½ hours on August 7 with representatives from 3 of the 4 Idaho Congressional Staffs

Key players were Mike Freese, Senator Craig’s Natural Resources Field Coordinator, and Layne Bangerter, Senator Crapo’s Natural Resources staffer.

Items of discussion included:

1. History of the AD Pay Authority
2. How the Authority has been used over the last two decades
3. ADFA initiatives to achieve “fair pay for job performed”
4. Agency review of the 2005 Proposed AD Pay Rates (this proposal was the one that would reduce pay $2-$7 an hour for 99% of the positions and which was rescinded due to significant negative comments from both within the agencies and externally (gubernatorial staffs, ADFA, etc.)

From our perspective, and without exaggerating, the meeting was an unqualified success. We obtained the following commitments (Mike Freese has the lead on this):

1. The Idaho delegation will “closely examine” the results of the outside third-party review of the process and procedures utilized by both the Position Evaluation and Rate Setting Working Groups of NWCG’s Interagency Business Practices Working Team that led to the 2005 Rates. OPM will be involved in this review.
2. The Idaho delegation believes the agencies are honestly working toward a solution, and just want to help them get there, including evaluation of alternative methods of obtaining supplementary incident personnel such as Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contracts.

It is our impression that Judy Carvelho’s Position Evaluation Group did a good job of evaluating and ranking all ICS positions, though in some cases the levels were perhaps one grade too low. Between this group’s output and the issuing of the rates, the process went “south” with someone or some group essentially ignoring and discarding the Position Evaluation Group’s two years of hard work, and arbitrarily setting the 2005 rates you saw in the Proposal.

As a sidelight, ADFA and the legislators’ staffs discussed the lack of Forest Service response (as required by law) to the FOIA submitted by Shari Downhill of Wildland Firefighter Magazine. This FOIA requested 5-year data on AD utilization and all written, verbal, e-mail, and telephonic records regarding the evaluation of ICS positions and the setting of the 2005 rates. There will be immediate follow-up on this FOIA.

ADFA will also be submitting a FOIA all written, verbal, e-mail, and telephonic records regarding the evaluation of ICS positions and the setting of the 2005 rates (the 5-year data will be too expensive).

Comments on the above more than welcome.

Hugh Carson
Chair, AD Firefighters Association
www.adfirefighter.org

8/25 For DS

Don't get the wrong idea, not all CDF'ers share the same view. You're absolutely right, we don't do the same things the same way- so what? What do run totals prove?

Bottom line is you guys aren't paid all that much in the first place, and if you cant go have a beer or hug your kid or do whatever you feel you need to do because of your job or assignment, THEN YOU SHOULD GET PAID FOR IT!! -any drunk monkey can figure that one out!

firecat

8/25 Abs,

Put this in the Biblical Plagues category: Floods and Fires (There is even a regional infestation of crickets). While the town of New Harmony, Utah was threatened by the Blue Spring fire, we drafted water from the area’s flooded roads.

Targhee Engine 3-1 drafting from Ash Creek on flood-closed Forest Road during the July 2005 Blue Spring fire near Cedar City, Utah.

EAW

I added it to Engines 15 photo page. I also added two photos of the Deer IA to Fire 29, one from Mellie, one from Bard. Ab.

8/25 Cdf has a "gel use and effectiveness" form that the airbases use to figure out which gel (theres 3 types) works best and what it was used on. our guy dumped a load of regular old retardant on grass and it mashed the grass down and the fire crept underneath. A Hollister Ship came in and laid down gel (fire and ice out) and it stopped it with no creep thru.

As far as I know, the FS guy here said the reason behind the FS one load policy is that there has'nt been a corrosiveness on aircraft study published yet. Gel is supposedly ok'ed for use on the forest (sierra) but not by application (aircraft).

firecat
8/25 here are a few pics of the tennessee forestry new dozers and rigs.
it's a big up grade going from ford 700 sirs sterling and deer to cat.

Brian

I put 'em on Equipment 9 photo page. Ab.

8/25 Here is our new crew logo.

Thank you,

Reese K
BIA-Cherokee Agency

I put it on Logo 11 photo page along with the Sandia Helitack (Cibola NF, NM) logo from JA and 2 logos from Venezuelan firefighters. Ab.

8/25 Robert, Try this link

www.nwcg.gov/teams/pmswt/pms.htm

CW
8/25 Help!!!! I am looking for a FF1 Taskbook online or by any other means.

Can you possibly help me? Thank you so much.

Robert

8/25 Try this

photos of Ramona Airport CDF
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/~hwb/20050824/

JS

8/25 The retardant aspect of firefighting is admittedly a weaker area in my knowledge base, but I thought phos-chek worked by temporarily changing the chemical structure of cellulose fuels, thus interfering with the chemical chain reaction needed to sustain combustion. Gels sound like enhanced wetting agents, like we used for some structure work. The gels just don't sound like they would be that useful for the type and arrangement of fuels you get, especially when going higher in elevation in most areas of California. Then again, I guess most state-protected land is at lower elevations. Sounds like the Forest Service is adopting a pretty sound policy if it can only be used on first drops.

Still Out There As an AD
8/25 Resource Advisor,

Is there an ICS position for Resource Advisor? I have seen it abbreviated as READ,
and am currently qualified as a READ, but I never see the position listed in ICS.
Additionally, I was wondering what the current AD pay rate for READ is.

--elkski
8/25 Is there anyone from the Thermo Gel Company willing to come forth and tell us (present facts) if their product is safe and effective? I would also like to see the MTDC studies.

Ingesting a product you are trying to sell only tells me someone may be stupid and looking to gain a buck (or they may be confident in the safety of their product?). I remember where many of the folks who intentionally ingested Agent Orange to "show its safety" now lie. I also remember the folks who regularly used "the safe herbicides" that the Forest Service used in the 60's 70's and early 80s's. Some of those folks actually shot each other with "squirt guns" full of that stuff. I also know where many of them now reside or the battles they are fighting.

It would be nice if someone could provide the the links to full studies of the effectiveness, the effects to the environment, and also the short term and long term effects of personal exposure to Thermo Gel 200L.

I like the way gel protects structures but is it safe being dropped from airtankers on the troops? When it is dropped from the air, does the product become aerosolized as an inhation and ingestion hazard? We all know that exposure to certain hydrocarbons is part of our jobs and a carcinogen, but how does this new exposure affect us?

Not a Guinea Pig
8/25 Re: Gel Technology Delivered by Air Tankers.

WF and others,

I may be mistaken but I thought the aerial study of the gel was only on the corrosiveness to the vessel it was carried in for delivery? Could you provide the MTDC study or a link so I can become more educated on gel technology delivered by the air?

Thanks,

Gizmo
8/25 OK, I will add the 'year to date' tally for the Berdoo, actually the Federal Interagency Communications Center housed on the San Bernardino, but serving basically all of SoCal for the FS and BLM.
		Federal Interagency Communications Center
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 20:30)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Aircraft Down 	             15
		Emergency Standby             7
		Hazmat 	                     24
		Law Enforcement            5558
		Medical Aid                 422
		Miscellaneous               914
		Prescribed Fire              18
		Public Assist               686
		Resource Order              153
		Search and Rescue            94
		Smoke Check                  12
		Structure Fire               12
		Traffic Collision           545
		Vegetation Fire             320
		Vehicle Fire                 49
		Total Incidents            8829		
This info is easy to find, and it make me wonder, why certain folks post before any research.

"Why can't we all just get along"

8/25 To all HR408 opponents and CDF True:

Can we please stop with the comparisons and run call totals as it has nothing to do with why we deserve portal to portal? I just read Casey's testimony and didn't see anything greedy about it. I don't think we do the same thing or have the same responsibilities as CDF and we're not asking to be treated like CDF. Casey's testimony was right on. If you are to be away from home and limited as to your ability to pursue business of a personal nature, you should be compensated.

It's true, we don't have the same responsibilities regarding all risk assignments as CDF or local Gov coop's, we respond to them, but the intent of our response is different, just as our duties on a Federal wildland fire are different. For example, I may fly out to the most remote part of a fire, stay there 4 days, sleep right next to the line (in a safety zone), then fly back. Could I call home while in that safety zone? No. Could I go to the store while in that safety zone? No. Could I do anything that even remotely resembled personal business or pleasure? No. But because I had a hot meal (MRE) and adequate shelter (space blanket), it is a non compensable break. CDF True, when was the last time you had an assignment like that? I doubt very recently for the simple fact that no matter the hard ship or lack thereof, you were being paid! As a side note, I went to a vehicle fire today outside our DPA, we were first in and Veg was involved. We knocked down the Veg fire, switched to Turnouts(with bunker boots!) and knocked down the vehicle fire saving two racing motorcycles in the process. The local Gov BC on scene said that we did it more text book than most of his own companies would have. I then was unable to go home because by time I drove home from my remote station I would have had to turn around and come right back. Did I want portal to portal for that? No and I'm greedy?

I would like all supporters of 408 to send me pics of things you do on assignment while "off the clock"(ab this is a spare address so you can include it) and I will make a Powerpoint to illustrate just how "greedy" we are!

DS
8/24 Gel vs Retardant,

I just want to let everybody know I was on the Spruce fire with CDF last week. As most everyone knows that Ukiah air attack base is full-on gel, so with that, here I go.

I was on scene about 1 hour after initial report. The tankers were still dropping red and blue goo. I was on the active flank and was just about hit with gel, good thing he missed us, WHY?? Gel did not impress me, it was chunky and too thick to coat the vegetation, it left the underside of the brush very much dry. I do think for grass it will work great but for moderate to heavy fuels, forget it. Gel also had a weird smell to it; unlike the ammonia smell of phos-chek, this stuff is kinda well just plain weird smelling. So for the future I hope most folks will try to get out of the drop of gel. I dont think it will be very good to get hit by it, unlike the glory juice of the old days, this stuff is nasty all the way around......

Norcal Capt
8/24 Fire Community,

I’ve got an opportunity to help prepare a portion of an upcoming fire report commissioned by the governor of California to assess how California prepares and plans wildfire management. I think this is also a great opportunity to let firefighters (who really know what is actually going on) have their say for a change.

Below is a brief description of what I am supposed to be addressing. If any of you feel moved to express your thoughts, please do (especially for numbers 3-7). They can be posted here or sent directly to me if you would like complete confidentiality (email address below). I want my report to reflect reality rather than what we usually get. In my short career as a firefighter myself, I’ve experienced a definite disconnect between what we know and what politicians and the press say. I’m tired of it.

Now’s your chance…

Rick

The questions I will be focusing on…

1. Who is directly involved in the fire planning process (CDF, USFS, local fire agencies, etc.)?
2. What other groups are involved (County Board of Supervisors, insurance agencies, developers, regional planners, etc.)?
3. What kind of coordination exists between such entities?
4. Over what time horizons are plans made?
5. What information is used to plan over the short term/long term?
6. Is climate variability and or other future changes accounted for in their plans?
7. Vulnerabilities/assumptions of fire planning over the next 50 years?

Readers, this is a really worthwhile opportunity to be heard from another direction. Rick is a strong supporter of fire and has done much to educate the public and politicians to the need for fire in chaparral. He's also a member of this community. Ab.

8/24 Here are some figures for a slow forest.... about 12-15,000 people in the two counties. This is for the Inyo N.F.
Calendar 2005 (Prepared 08/24/2005 11:11)
		Inyo National Forest
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 11:11)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Emergency Standby             1
		Law Enforcement             504
		Medical Aid                   6
		Miscellaneous               171
		Prescribed Fire               9
		Public Assist                22
		Resource Order               81
		Search and Rescue            38
		Smoke Check                  49
		Structure Fire                1
		Traffic Collision             8
		Vegetation Fire              89
		Vehicle Fire                  3
		Total Incidents             982		
JB
8/24 Good Byes for Ernie Johnson

Hi there - this message is for those who could not join us on Saturday at the Ernie Johnson Memorial.

Tears were shed and stories were told. There was a huge gathering as we estimate about 350 people attended at the Shelton Civic Center. Tributes were paid by Ken Van Buskirk (posted below) and Julie Stewart (Julie's Tribute to Ernie). Ernies children -- Jennifer, Jessica and Eric -- spoke eloquently and courageously about their Dad. More stories were shared. Becky Slick shared how Ernie as an Incident Commander instilled throughout his Incident Management Team that the firefighters always came first - first in line for food - first to be taken care of. Friendships of 25, 35 and 45 years were shared. The firefighting contingent both young and old were in attendance.

Racing and firefighting equipment were laid out on an Olympic NF Forest Service blanket.... and newspaper articles about Ernie's inventions, accomplishments and retirement were lovingly displayed. The family created a very moving music and photo tribute of his life. Flowers were everywhere and one of the most striking featured a 12 inch Smokey Bear tucked into a floral display of bear grass and sunflowers. Afterwards, several firefighters and friends and Ernie's son Eric went to a friend's home and we sat around an outside fire and swapped fire stories. Ernie would have loved it.

The family has designated the "52 club" as a place where folks may make contributions in Ernie's memory. You can get further information by going to www.wffoundation.org/index.html

Signed - Ernie's Friend

Thanks Ernie's Friend for keeping us up-to-date. Thanks also to Julie and to Van B. What eloquent and meaningful tributes.
...And the circles on the surface of the pool move outward... Ab.

8/24 A Tribute to Ernie Johnson by Ken Van Buskirk

I had quite the adventure bringing Ernie's truck home, I know if he had been with me he would have "MacGyver'ed" it together to get home.

As many of you know I am writing a book and the dedication reads, "Dedicated to those who know the smell of woodsmoke, to those who have tickled dragons, and to those who have touched firefighters lives." Ernie did all three and so very much more.

The crew of the DC-3 were deeply honored to fly Ernie home the other day, the more we talked the more we realized that maybe Ernie hadn't touched their lives directly but others they knew had been touched. They each knew someone that had worked with Ernie and it was very moving to me to fly back with them.

Ernie Johnson, Paul Gleason, Walt Smith, their exploits are legendary, they are my heroes. I feel so fortunate to call them friend. Their memories live on in their family and friends and I hope to do them justice in capturing their legacies in my book.

I was visiting with the family the other day, sharing stories and tears. Ernie was so full of life and so full of mischief. I remember setting in Red Devil Alaska waiting for a ride with Ernie at an airstrip with a 200' runway. This plane landed, it was a Turbine Porter , and it's all-motor. We got on board; Ernie got up front with pilot. Plane doesn't have the normal controls; it's got a stick like a helicopter. Ernie turned, and with a twinkle in his eye told the pilot. "Let's see what this can do" We went straight up!!!!!!

Ernie's dad Roy had that same twinkle, Eric has it, and I saw it in Payton's eye when he told me his grandpa was building him an airplane.

Eric told me he never grew tired of his dad's stories even though he heard them over and over. None of us did. Eric, he told them with such passion that you know they were true and I'm here to tell you they are.

Whether he was fighting fires, burning slash, racing, hunting, or fishing he lived life to the fullest. Savoring every precious moment. Ernie loved his family and his friends and was so very proud of his children.

In his life's work he always put the safety of his folks first, we are all family. I'm convinced he is the one that the MacGyver TV show was based on. Whether it was by inventing the helitorch, or the laser ignition system it was for the safety of his folks. It seemed like he was always the first on the scene of an accident and risked his life for others with little regard for himself.

Ernie Johnson will always be my friend and my hero.
8/24 Another source for fire photos.
http://firepix.blm.gov/

embt

Yep, that is a good site and a good resource. I'll bet those who keep it up-to-date know how time-consuming it is to work on photos and photo files. Ab.

8/24 Out of the CDF Airbases using a water enhancer, (gel) only Ukiah and Hollister are exclusive gel bases. Hemet, Grass Valley and Columbia still have a long term product. At this time, if there is a fire on USFS land, the USFS will only accept the first load of gel for initial attack and then the Tankers must reload with long term. As Hemet, Grass Valley and Columbia still have a long term fire retardant; they can still reload the Tankers and fly a Federal incident.

Each of the CDF Airbases mentioned above is using a different water enhancer product. The gels are mixed with the water using a variety of processes and come as a liquid concentrate, powder or a crystal. The gel is primarily a water thickener that contains super absorbent polymers. Once on the ground, it holds water in suspension on the flammable vegetation. This retards evaporation, prolonging availability of water for heat absorption. Once all of the moisture has evaporated, the residual chemical does not have any fire retardant or extinguishing capability.

Firefly
8/24 Can someone please give me info on how contract crews are ordered for large incidents? Is the use of these crews a move to total contracting out or just to fill an emergency need?

Is it done simply by nearest available resource, by some estimation of cost VS benefit for a contract crew VS force account (FED agency crew)?

Where, if anyplace, does the number of agency sponsored Type 2 crews figure in the mix?

Does anyone of them transition from contract crews to agency crews? For example are many of the people hired by contractors first and then moving on to seasonal or career Fed jobs based on this experience? Or, are they staying with the contactors or going to different lines of work?

Any info, sources, contact would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Confused Roadrunner
8/24 After being gone for awhile It took me several hours to read and digest the posts I had missed. To make sure I understand all of the threads Let's see if I understand the issues...

If I slip on "blue Gel retardant" and sprain my ankle will someone come and help me? If it's a Green white or yellow fed responder should I be jealous if they support portal to portal? If the first person is a contractor should I question her/his training to apply an Ace bandage? If CDF comes to my rescue should I ask for a MSDS sheet on the retardant?

hmmm...me thinks I'll just lace my boots a little tighter, take an Advil and walk back to my white agency pick-up and head on home and read a children's book.

Oliver

ps...I echo Mellie's congrats to the fire fighters and managers on the Blossom Complex.

oh...another ps...I appreciate all flavors of private and agency folks who provide emergency medical service, search and rescue, and all of the other emergency responses they may be involved in. If you see me stretched out along side of the road, trail or fire line please feel free to perform basic or advanced life saving techniques on this tired old body of mine.
8/24 While reading the discussions on numbers of incidents I noticed a tone of disbelief on the part of some folks writing in.

Consequently, I took a few moments to dig out the most recent Angels National Forest Stats. These came of the ANF web site about 0945, 24 August 05; shortly after they were posted.

The ANF dispatches for both the Angeles National Forest and the Santa Monica Mountains NP. They do not dispatch for any local fire or police agency. For some of these incidents cooperating agencies would be notified. For example on the aircraft down and medical aid. The first response however would have been by either FS or NPS personnel

From many years of work on the forest these figures are not out of the ordinary for this time of year. The diversity of work and pace of activity is way above that of what many may see as "traditional" FS work.

By way of comparison and to get these figures in perspective I would suggest looking at a copy of the Annual Run Reports published in Fire House Magazine. I haven't done this for several years but the last time I made to comparison the ANF was way up the list in terms of fire department activity.

I would hope folks would step back and evaluate this in terms of the skills, training and experience necessary to handle this number of complex incidents. My guess is may of these skill are in no way reflected in the current 462 Position Descriptions or performance standards. Because of that lack there is very strong case for reform of position descriptions, standards and an increase in pay to properly compensate folks for the work they are actually performing. This lack also hurts the FS as employees who gain these skills can easily market them to municipal departments at a much higher pay rate. The FS loses the skill and experience after a fairy significant investment. Staffing levels are in constant flux, crew cohesion is hurt, and in turn safety can be compromised.

		Angeles National Forest
		Calendar 2005        (Prepared 08/24/2005 07:53)
		
		Incident Type              # of Incidents
		Aircraft Down                 1
		Emergency Standby             4
		Hazmat                       19
		Law Enforcement             763
		Medical Aid                 238
		Miscellaneous              1496
		Prescribed Fire              24
		Public Assist               241
		Resource Order              126
		Search and Rescue            80
		Smoke Check                  37
		Structure Fire               21
		Traffic Collision           411
		Vegetation Fire             188
		Vehicle Fire                 86
		Total Incidents            3735		
John Bennett
USFS Ret
8/24 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
8/24 Anyone hear about an AT down in NV?

Rotor

Info on the SEAT crash was posted on the Hot List Forum yesterday. Pilot walked away with minor injuries. Quick Google News search shows this article Reno Gazette. Ab.

8/24 Wow, it is amazing to me how much anger this portal to portal testimony has released, I barely know where to start.

For those non-feds who immediately want to know where their portal to portal legislation is, well first person I'd talk to is your boss, that is exactly what the FWFSA is doing for Federal Wildland Firefighters (Congress is our boss when it comes to these issues). If you are not a Federal employee and you don't get portal to portal, thats too bad, some employers are getting it for their employees; if yours doesn't, it really isn't FWFSA's place to get it for you. Of course if we do get it, think how much easier your argument for it will be.

If contract firefighting is so much better than government crews, then how come the cities haven't gone for it, very few cities have experimented with this and I know of only a handful that stayed with it. Try mentioning Rural Metro in most city fire houses and count how many seconds it takes for them to deposit you roughly on the doorstep, at least most of us feds feel contractors have a place on the fireline.

CDF true and the others who claim to know what kinds of calls Federal Wildland Firefighters go to better than we do, you would be surprised, we go to the same stuff you do, maybe not as many of the non wildland calls but we get alot more wildland experience than most of you, yet we don't claim you don't do wildland just because it is not your main thing. Educate yourselves before you proclaim us wildland only. A couple of years ago I went through my fire experience log and I found that even the years when I worked outside of R5 (where the USFS supposedly only does fire) I ran almost 50% medical aids most years. The simple fact is in many of the areas where we work, there is no "Fire Department" except for us, I have worked in several places where the USFS was the first in structure response, sometimes the first type 1 engine was 1 or 2 hours out. BLM also has many stations like this, particularly in the California Desert District, large sections of I-15 and I-40 only have fed wildland crews available to respond to accidents and fires.

CDF true you ask about our training. As permanent employees we are required to maintain Medical first responder (the same level of training required of many CA fire departments as well as your own agency, CDF), and Hazmat first responder operations, we also have a Suburban Emergency Response class which provides training in vehicle extrication and structural fire response. Many of us have training levels beyond these minimums.

As far as authority to respond to these calls, the FS manual mandates we assist local agencies to the best of our ability, we have jurisdiction anywhere in the US until a representative of that jurisdiction arrives and accepts responsibility; if it takes 6 hours for the SAR team to arrive and take over, guess who is out there looking for a lost hiker, guess who is often asked to stick around since we know the area best and are often better equipped to get around the forest? Who do you think is on the ground to guide in that medivac ship and provide patient care while the other "local" fire departments make the 40 minute drive up the mountain to the Fed wildland station and then continue the additional 30 minutes past the station to the incident scene, and that is assuming they don't get stuck or lost. I've been on numerous medicals where we packaged the patient, landed the ship, loaded the patient and had them on their way before the first "real firefighter" was even on scene. Who's helicopter is often used to insert law enforcement personnel into the area to make a raid on a marijuana plantation? Who is often asked to carry out a patient on a litter because the "real firefighters" can barely make the hike in and out carrying just their own gear.

As far as your question about aircraft accidents, have you ever worked at an airbase? well if you did (as many of our crews do) then maybe you would have been to a few aircraft accidents. The National Forests make great places to crash an aircraft, you see we have all these tall pointy things called trees and mountains, and also funny weather events and lots of cool stuff people in aircraft might fly just a pinch too close to while getting a better look, they also just happen to cover a huge area, in California the USFS alone covers nearly 1/5 of the states land, that is alot of inhospitable area to run out of gas or have engine trouble over, and unlike many rural areas there are not little airports scattered about to make an emergency landing at. Then there is that odd little bit about how we are generally the only ones around to go and look for that aircraft in a timely way. I believe the The Humbolt Toyabe is dispatched by the Sierra Front ECC (one of those listed earlier), that forest alone is 6.3 MILLION acres, alot of land to crash in (that is about 1/5 of CDF's entire jurisdiction).

Your comment about being one of 6 responders to a sprained ankle makes no sense, for one thing a mutual aid responder is called because they are needed; if not somebody needs to be slapped for risking crews that are not needed; usually the Fed wildland unit is on-scene long before all the other "real" firefighters, so just who was redundant on that response anyway?

If you think the portal to portal legislation is bad law that is one thing but to try and diminish the efforts of some of the finest people I've ever had the pleasure to work with because your ego can't accept that the green, yellow and white trucks of the Federal wildland agencies go to the same kinds of calls you do is just wrong.

I'm starting to wonder if all this hand wringing is in response to the possibility that the federal wildland school for firefighters will close its doors to their recruiters if we actually start to get paid a comparable wage.

A sad and kind of angry FED
8/24 Actually the only thing new is the blue. CDF has been testing all four of the USFS approved gels for a couple of years now, both on the ground and in the air. All the gels have been thru the Missoula lab extensive program and testing process to make sure they don't kill fish and critters. Like it or not, us firefighters are just critters. What you should be worried about is not what is dropping on you now but what was dropped on you for the past 50 years. Kudos to CDF for leading us in the 21st century.

WF
8/24 I had an opportunity to use the Thermo Gel on structure protection this past spring in South Dakota. It worked great and the clean up was better than I expected - washing right off with a 1" line. It wasn't blue, however I understand that the blue is just for aviation applications and that the pilots really like it. As far as the MSDS goes, the SD guys checked it out o.k. and I'm sure the CDF admin has checked it out. I do know the old retardant is nasty stuff.

F/F4
8/24 Chris Demarest,

I have not looked at your book or your narrative yet but I surely will. I loved the Midwest Book Review that said, "Hotshots! is a simple and engaging picturebook for beginning readers..." I have a few cousins and children of friends who might like to read the book when they get old enough.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words if people can't read and comprehend things at such an early stage of development. The reading level for your book is described as years four through eight by the publisher. I am not sure if that is related to the age of the reader or the number of years someone has been a wildland firefighter <tongue in cheek>.

I will make no further comments until I receive it in the mail. The intent of the book was obviously noble and it got good reviews by Amazon.

Rogue Rivers
8/24 I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine, an FS Engine Captain who routinely responds to TCs, medical aids, etc. as the first engine in, and he is so disgusted with a certain posters ignorance and adversarial stance that he said he is avoiding TS until said poster's drivel passes.

'Tis said when someone elicits such a reaction...

CDF True, I ask you, what is your agenda here?

"Why can't we all just get along?"
8/23 Check out these blue gel drops from bard, originally from fyr pilot.

Blue Gel 4 and Blue Gel 6

I added them to AirTankers 19 photo page. Ab.

8/23 CDF True,

I don't want to be rude but I am going to tell you something that may be hard to listen to. Your facts were assumptions and not researched well enough. EMSA (Emergency Medical Services Authority) is the enabling body for local EMSA agencies. The CA State EMSA does not provide authorization to individual responders, only direction, guidance, and policy to individual local certifying agencies.

I can't speak for others but the federal wildland agency I work for has a B.L.S. (Basic Life Support) provider number through the Inland County Emergency Services Agency (ICEMA). The minimum level of training for our fire personnel is either EMT or Medical First Responder. The enabling document for our response to taxpayer needs is our agency mission statement...... "Caring for the land, serving people". Other land management agencies have similar mission statements. The thought behind serving people is best said as, "The greatest good for the greatest number of people in the long run".

As far as what the taxpayers want... I would say they would probably want any completely trained and equipped responder, regardless of agency to respond if they need help. Do you think the CDF engine that rolled off Interstate 15 a few years ago, cared that a federal wildland fire agency was one of the first agencies on scene? I was the second person on scene behind a County Battalion Chief. Do you think that the families that are injured while recreating on or passing through federal lands care if a federal wildland firefighter responds first or if they wait for 15-30 or more minutes (in the case of the Mojave Desert and other remote areas of the country up too an hour or more) for a county or CDF engine to respond? It is all part of the closest forces concept.... it is part of the California Fire Assistance Agreement language.... (hint, do you remember that discussion last year?)

The National Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Academy requires completion of Medical First Responder as part of the basic fire academy. It is taught primarily so we can treat our own personnel, but it is only ethical that if we are trained, equipped, and the closest available resource, that we respond. We also respond when requested for mutual aid as you have said.

As far as 15 airplane crashes... it is true. The FICC (Federal Interagency Communication Center) dispatches a large area of desert and mountains in Southern California that are major transportation corridors between the LA basin and Las Vegas and Phoenix.. The FICC ONLY dispatches federal resources, if you see an incident number assigned, it meant that a federal unit responded.

My background.... besides being qualified in Wildland Fire (not being pompous here, just wanting to show that the wildland fire agencies, at least in my area, are not what you are assuming they are):

California Certified Firefighter 1 and 2
Emergency Medical Technician
HAZMAT I.C.
HAZMAT First Responder - Operational
Swiftwater Rescue Technician
Former Rescue Systems 1 Instructor
Former qualified ARFF (Aircraft Rescue Fire Fighter)
Former Medical First Responder Medical Instructor

I have some photos if you would actually like to see federal wildland firefighters performing the things that you don't think they do. Would that be factual enough for you?

Take care and keep safe, don't make this "us vs. them"... we are all part of the wildland fire community.

Lobotomy
8/23 Congrats to all working so long and hard on the Blossom Complex!
I look at that terrain and I am really impressed. I got word "Containment was
declared at 1800 hours today. Mop up and rehab efforts are under
way. Evacuations and Rogue River closures were lifted at 0800."

Extra congrats for doing it safely!

Steve M, by "wildland firefighters", I know you're including the "militia"
equivalent, aren't ya? If you're not, we be in a heap 'o trouble! <snicker>

Mellie

8/23 Recently I pledged $1 per mile to Ken's run, but in an effort to help reach the goal of $1000 per mile, I'm increasing my pledge.

I will pledge the equivalent of 2 months of my recent pay raise, of $72 per month, for a total of $144, or in other words $2.77 per mile.

If someone is willing to match me dollar for dollar, I'll pledge an additional 4 months of my pay raise.

(sorry Lobotomy, that still doesn't equal your $10; but it does show that FS Division Chiefs don't make that much more than their Engine Captains)

sign me,
not doing the job for the money

Good one. I might just have to dig deeper! Congrats on your promotion. Ab.

8/23 We're pleased to announce National Fire Fighter Corp. is now sponsoring the entire collection of Engine Photo Pages. National Fire Fighter Corporation offers a wide variety of wildland fire fighting supplies and products at competitive pricing. See their website at http://www.nationalfirefighter.com to browse and shop online. You can even request a catalog while you're there.

Ab

8/23 To All Interested Folks:

The next California Firefighters Memorial ceremony will be held on Saturday, October 15, 2005 in Capitol Park in Sacramento California. This annual ceremony honors not only those names of fallen firefighters from California already on the memorial wall, but is used to honor those that have died in the line of duty the preceding year by inclusion of their names on the wall.

This year, one of the names to be added to the wall is that of Daniel Holmes, member of the Arrowhead Hotshots who, as many of you recall, was killed last October. Obviously family of all those lost this past year will be invited by the California Fire Foundation and firefighters as well as friends are certainly encouraged to attend. As soon as I have additional information on the time of the event I'll post it.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me (916) 515-1224 or Kelley Koll, Program Director at (916) 921-9111 or 800-890-3213.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
8/23 Original Ab note:

There are still a few categories of photo pages available for sponsorship. Pricing is currently around 2-3 cents per 1,000 banner views. Email advertising@wildlandfire.com for quotes.

Speaking of photos. . .long time readers here will remember our website was the first to accept and publish wildland fire photos on the Internet. A quick survey shows our, or should I say your, collection has grown to over 3,000 photos. For those interested in what it takes to catalog, publish, store, and maintain a collection this size, here are some stats. Our main /pics directory where all the photos reside, contains:
  • 247 sub-folders
  • 10,807 files
  • occupies 173 megabytes of space
  • used 23 gigabytes of bandwidth during the month of July
A best guess is that it takes between 7-10 minutes to save, create a thumbnail image, resize the original photo, upload both images to the server, add the thumbnail to the photo page, add the description to the appropriate page, create the link from the thumbnail to the large photo, input the text and link to the description page under the thumbnail, and announce it here. That would mean there have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-500 hours spent working on the photo pages. While I don't do it much anymore, I do appreciate my partner's hard work and dedication in getting the photos up as fast as is possible! Thank you Ab, for maintaining the world's largest collection of wildland fire photos online!

Ab Note: Thanks OA. You're right on the time involved as you well know from the early days... but the rewards are great. Besides enjoying looking at them myself, I get personal satisfaction in knowing they get used for nonprofit purposes - in firefighting training every winter, for presentations large and small by firefighters to each other and to the public, by fire ecologists and older students, by kids making websites for school projects, by agency fire management talking to congress, in parts and pieces in university fire training websites. Soon I hope, some will be on display on walls at the Fire Academy in Sacramento. I need to get back in touch with the person putting that together... FYI, I am checking with contributors on those photos of interest to make sure we have go-ahead.

Firefighters, if you have any opportunities left in the season to take high resolution, large size action photos of firefighters working or crews walking in a line or with their engine or helicopter, etc, please send them in. I'm looking for photos that inspire those at the Academy, educate the Public and get the old dogs that walk the halls to stop and remember. I think I'm caught up on photos to be posted here (more or less, as much as I can be...).

8/23 Todd,

In the Ruth Enginecrew photo, the 2nd from the left is John Arrigoni, the 2nd from the right is Mary Brooks. I'm doubting the date of 1977, because the guy in the white t-shirt looks like Chris Griggs, and he didn't start until 1980. The guy in the headband looks like Marvin Curry, who started in '82 or '83. So, If these are these folks, the date could be as late as 1983. -

MJ

8/23 Just a couple of comments on HR-408,

First to address the thought that militia will have less incentive to hit the fireline to incur hazard pay, cause their payroll deductions would increase: The solution to this seems simple. If a person's position description isn't covered as a primary or secondary firefighter position (there's that firefighter word again), their hazard pay isn't withheld from their payroll deduction as retirement income, rather just normal income. Seems to me a simple "if/then" line of coding added to the current financial software program could figure that out easy enough.

Next, the fear of folks retiring early due to 3 consecutive years of high hazard pay accumulation: This also seems easily overcome or negotiated. One option would be to not include the hazard pay in the "high 3" retirement formula, but to base it over the entire career of the employee. For example, there could be minimum and maximum hourly annual qualifiers. Each year a firefighter meets the minimum requirements, they get a higher percentage added to the final retirement calculation. The possible solutions to this issue and how to make it fair seem endless. I think most would agree that those who spend more time in harms way during their careers are justified in receiving higher retirement than those unwilling to sacrifice the comfiness of their own homes and daily routines.

As for the concept of folks not stepping up to management level positions for fear of missing the hazard pay: The above paragraph would solve part of the issue. My opinion is that firefighters leave or stay on the fireline for many different reasons. The most common reason for leaving I've observed is that they become an expert in what they are doing and require new challenges. Another common reason is their bodies tell them it's time to spend more time behind a desk, this may be voluntary or involuntary. Or, like myself, maybe they just get tired of babysitting and sleeping in the dirt. And, there are many who just don't have the skills, ability, or other qualities to assume management duties and responsibilities. Or, there are some who promote to a certain level and enjoy it so much, they never want to promote again.

While I never met any firefighters who hated their job, I also never met any who were willing to do it for free, at least not on a continuing basis. HR 408 is simply another step to help provide fair financial compensation to those willing to meet the high social, familial, mental, and physical demands of the fireline. If you're not a wildland firefighter, stop cluttering the board. I'm probably not interested in what you have to say, cause you most likely lack the knowledge or perspective to form a credible opinion. If you are a wildland firefighter and dislike the concept of HR 408, please feel free to start your own organization and make it your mission to have your region excluded from the bill. If you are a wildland firefighter and think you are already handsomely compensated for your work, please take any extra money you receive due to the efforts of the FWFSA and your fellow firefighters and donate it to your favorite charity (the Wildland Firefighter Foundation comes quickly to mind).

Examine closely what is being said here and in the many available links to other documents. Consider carefully the motivation and purpose behind the comments, opinions, or offered statistics. Get out of the box and think for yourself. I don't see any sharks in this swimming pool, jump in!

Steve M
8/23 Recruitment bulletins for the Apprenticeship Program are now open for
Regions 1, 4, 5, and 6 and can be found at www.wfap.net/recruitment.html.

Once again the Region 5 announcement is a short one. Applications must be
postmarked by September 2. If anyone has questions about the Apprenticeship
Program feel free to e-mail me at cescott @ fs.fed.us . Questions about the
application process should be directed to the contact person in the
announcements.

-Cara
8/23 We are almost 1/5th of the goal for the run that Ken Perry is undertaking for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation... I encourage everyone, regardless of agency, goals, or affiliation. to support the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. It is a foundation that supports all of us in times of need. As the Wildland Firefighter Foundation supports us, we also need to support them.

The goal is $1000 dollars per mile pledge. We are almost 1/5th of the way there... Lets show what the wildland fire community is made of... dig deep and give what you can for your family , friends, and co-workers... Lets show we are all united towards the basic goals of security and safety for our families.

Lobotomy

Please, Readers, let family, friends and co-workers know. Ab.

8/23 Who are the IHC supts that are respected and you would want on your division working with you?

curious
8/23 RE: HOTSHOTS! review

I am the author of the book in question. The review was passed along to me by <snip>. I was shocked at how the book was slammed. First of all, I don't think the reviewer bothered to read the author's note that talks specifically about what hotshots do, which would've made clear the intent of what groundpounders et al do.

Backing up, this was the third book on fire I did, the first being (based on my experience as an urban firefighter with some wildland firefighting experience-FIREFIGHTERS A TO Z which was a New York Times best seller. The second was SMOKEJUMPERS ONE to TEN. In the former I used my own experience. For the second I spent time at the USFS base in Redding CA, the visit organized by Chuck Sheley, VP/ NSA. Ironically, when I told Chuck about the hotshots idea he contacted a couple of people in