"THEY SAID IT" ARCHIVES
SEPTEMBER, 2005
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9/30 Howdy all -

Here's a link to testimony to the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet in reference to Katrina communications "review" processes (the Subcommittee Web Site may not yet have the information posted on yesterday's testimonies but it should be the same). The testimony was given by Art Botterell and is very interesting, philosophically, in reference to communications issues...

www.incident.com/blog/

As far as that goes, I just discovered this incident.com blog after getting referred to it by a friend and it is pretty interesting in its own right. Gotta love the practical philosophers.

Also I can't resist commenting on the void of information coming out of the southern california area from federal government sources. Good thing I have access to CNN and a 209 password!

Be safe out there-

- still learning (usually the hard way)
9/30 Hurricane relief performed by wildland firefighters:

Just a quick note on what is going on in East Texas. I arrived with my crew, the South Dakota Black Hats (type 2IA), in Lufkin TX. on the 26th. The original mission of the Incident Command Team we are assigned with was utilizing hand crews to clear roads and homes of downed trees. That rapidly changed when we found out that the basic needs of folks (water, ice & food) were not being fully met. Now the team is managing 10 Points Of Distribution (POD) that I know of. Most crews have been split into 2 modules with each module managing a single POD and a DIVS overseeing several PODs within several miles of each other. From what I have been told by my DIVS the other PODs are being operated like the one we are managing here in Pineland TX. Open for business at 07:00, hand out ice, drinking water and MREs until 20:00, go back to the local High School for dinner and a shower. Our POD has been serving 1500 cars a day and we go through an entire trailer load of water, a load of meals and half a load of ice a day. No word on when our assignment will change, but as nice as we get treated by the locals, we would be happy working here for some time.

Matthew Branch
South Dakota State Wildland Fire
Hand Crew Superintendent

9/30 Hurricane relief performed by wildland firefighters:

Abs and all:

Hoping this finds you all well. I am currently deployed in San Antonio assisting with Katrina and Rita evacuees. I work in Region 1, and am one of five 20 person type 2 crews flown out of Montana on a charter plane. I wanted to write you all (texas slang) and let you know what we have been up to. Currently we are working in an evacuee shelter on the decommissioned Kelly air force base. We are working night shifts, 7pm to 7am. After about 5 days of haggling with the Red Cross and FEMA, we finally have our responsibilities lined out. We are supporting the Red Cross, and our duties are a lot along the lines of a camp crew, with a personalized twist added in. We set up and take down cots, manage supply of basic necessities including water and hygiene products, and are tasked with taking care of those evacuees that sometimes walk into our shelter with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Granted there are many here that genuinely need our help, but there are others that are here taking advantage of "the system". Residents here get medical care, 3 meals a day, showers, laundry services, a cool place to sleep, phone and internet access, television (news) and a little compassion. We are being assisted by the San Antonio Police, National Guard, and Texas State Guard, as the activities in a normal population still occur, prostitution, drug deals, fighting etc.

Initially when we arrived, there were logistical problems with finding us a place to stay. We were put in a building with approximately 500 other "assistants" with showers, food and A/C, a necessity in 100 degree temps. Our first night we were fed by the Red Cross, and afterwards, by the Mexican Army's Kitchen, set up a lot like fire camp. This is the first time since the Alamo that they have occupied Texas soil. With all the evacuees form the greater Houston area, they determined that they would use our housing for a special needs medical facility so for two nights we stayed in another abandoned building. It was a general disaster. The toilets were plugged, sinks filled with dirty water, no trash cans, A/C or showers, a pretty miserable experience. We had 3 (3 HOUR) periods of uninterrupted sleep in the first 48 hours. Thankfully that problem has been resolved and we are actually getting adequate rest in a lot better facilities.

With approximately 3,000 people in our shelter, people have been getting sick. We have been trying to remain healthy and hydrated. Some of our crewmembers have come down with the flu or upper respiratory infections. We had a confirmed case of the chicken pox (resident) earlier tonight. Those considered infectious have been moved to areas away from the general public.

We have been told that our occupation here is to establish some sort of consistency for groups like the Red Cross, that have ambiguous management strategies that often change on a daily basis. Although this is frustrating, things are getting better, and the difficult personalities are being weeded out or reassigned elsewhere.

Overall the assignment is a lot like fighting fire, with the personal danger not being in the flames, but becoming overwhelmed by those around us. The paycheck is the same, and every night (morning actually) we go back to our hotel knowing that we made life better for these people. They know that those of us in the "yellow shirts" are here to help, human beings first and "forestry technicians" in classification only.

MT FIREFLY

Thanks for the glimpse of your assignment, MT Firefly. Ab.

9/30 Quite a long time ago one of your ffs wrote an article. His name was Fire Killer. I have kept that article, have shown it to everyone I know, and if Fire Killer is still around, I just wanted to say YOU ROCK.

jd from salt lake city utah

Reprint of the Fire Killer piece below. As Fire Killer says, it is just land, and land that knows and needs fire... And the interface homes, well, bottom line is that they're just another kind of fuel -- true, beloved fuel to their owners, but not worth a firefighter's life. Be Safe All. Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

7/25/03
Today two families are in sorrow. Friends mourn. In the near
future, two new holes will be dug in the ground, flags will fly at
half mast, two new crosses will be erected, bagpipes will wail out.
Why must we morn again losses of fellow firefighters? Why? Why
did these two young men believe they had to save this piece of land
so bad that it cost them their lives? Every loss affects us all.

These are not acceptable losses.

I did not know these two. But I very well could have met them
and shared a simple handshake at the helibase. I mourn their loss.

Lest this happen again, let us remember what we fight- wildland fire,
not a structure fire with a kid hanging out the window. This loss is
not right.

May we remember that it is not a command of god to "save" this
piece of land. Land is only that, a piece of land that evolved with
fire on it. We are a family, and to lose two from our midst over a
piece of land is truely tragic.

We are not separate in our feelings of loss or in our desire for
understanding. Nor contractor, nor hotshot crew alike, these
deaths affect us all. Let us morn these losses in respect by finding
out what happened and not repeating mistakes if there were any.

My dearest respects to the family, to firefighters, and to friends
alike. We all share a bond that will not be broken. May these two
be in our thoughts and prayers - as we continue to mourn - while
continuing with our duties - as the job calls. Stay safe. Let's make
these the last deaths this year, and for all years to come. We are
one, yet we continue without two..., again...

Fire Killer

9/29 From Firescribe:

Los Angeles KCAL 9:
Topanga Fires Burn more than 17,000 acres
with link to video

List of SoCal news media with stories, photos and video of the fires.

Thanks, I made a summary table here: SoCal Fires '05 and put it at the top of the theysaid forum. Ab.

9/29 I know the fire in SoCal is LA County and Ventura County jurisdiction. After reading a post about the Forest Service not doing a good job getting us media coverage, well here is another example of not getting credit. I just watched the local news and they gave a list of agencies who are out fighting the Topanga Fire and here they are.

Ventura County
LA County
National Park Service
Department of Forestry
Local Agencies (?)

I know for a fact that my Forest alone has sent a strike team of engines, a handcrew, helitanker, and overhead and we are neighboring the Angles, so who knows what they have sent. It really amazes me on how many times we get left out as a participating agency.

frustrated

Someone wrote a personal email this morning saying that the 209 for the Topanga fire listed 5 strike teams of hotshots and 4 type 1 helicopters fighting the fire, but listed the number of FS personnel as only 25 -- and what did that mean? I think Topanga Fire overhead were scrambling to gather resources and it's hard to keep track of the numbers and what agency they hail from... The CNN reporter I saw at lunchtime talked about a crew of hotshots that had saved a community of homes in Thousand Oaks by successfully burning out their line. He didn't say they were FS, but they were. Ab.
9/29 Ab, can you post this? Jerry passed away on Saturday.

Carol

JERRY ROBERT BISHOP
(small photo of Jerry)

Jerry was born to Virgil and Isabel Bishop on August 24, 1955, in Clovis, CA, lived in North Fork all of his life, and graduated from Sierra High School in 1973. He passed away peacefully at home on Saturday, September 17, 2005.

His family, wife Mari, son Joey and daughter Jamie, were everything to him. It showed as he watched Joey play basketball, Jamie play soccer or softball, and early morning walks with Mari. Jerry and Mari's 30 years together were blessed with many memories, much love and devotion.

Over his 33 year career with the U.S. Forest Service, he touched many young men and women's lives. As Captain of Engine 51, his crew was his second love. Engine 51 was known as "Jerry's" engine.

His ability to work with children and his love of basketball was shown by his many years of coaching at North Fork School and teams in the Mountain Area Youth Basketball League. Jerry was known for his kindness, patience, thoughtfulness, selfless consideration of others and his gentle heart.

Mari, Joey and Jamie wish to express their heartfelt gratitude to the Forest Service Family and the North Fork Community for their love, kindness, support, prayers and endless help, day or night, during this difficult time.

Jerry was preceded in death by his parents, Virgil and Isabelle Bishop; brother Bobby; and sisters, Olga and Della. He is survived by his wife Mari; son Joey; daughter Jamie; loving dogs Chewie and Paco; brothers Ernie, Virgil Jr. and Eddie; sisters Mary Ellen and Ada; and many nieces and nephews.

A Celebration of Jerry's Life will be held at the North Fork Town Hall on Monday, October 3, 2005, at 11:00 a.m.

The family requests donations in Jerry's name to the North Fork Elementary School's Basketball Sports Program, 33087 Road 228, North Fork, CA 93643, (559-877-2215).

Carol and all of Jerry's friends and family,
I am so sorry for the loss of Jerry. I didn't know him personally, but I do know many of you who called him most excellent friend, firefighter, mentor, and teacher. Ab.
9/29 A reminder.... The International Association of Wildland Fire maintains a public calendar of planned events of interest to the wildland fire community. If you have any wildland fire related events, meetings, or conferences that you want to publicize, send me an e-mail. We don't include training, since there are other sites dedicated to fire training. You can see the calendar at our web site, www.iawfonline.org ---click on Upcoming Events.

Bill Gabbert
Executive Director
e-mail: iawf at iawfonline.org (substitute "@" for "at")
9/29 Ken's Run Pledgers!

As of today, we've received just under $17,000 (about 37% ) of the $46,000 that was pledged by our wildland firefighting community for Ken's Run.

Payments were really strong the first couple of weeks, but have lessened over time. As a reminder to everyone, in the interest of not using the funds to pay for postage or a billing system, we are accepting pledge payments on our website through PayPal, over the phone with your credit card, or through the mail. You can send your pledge to

Wildland Firefighter Foundation
2049 Airport Way,
Boise, Idaho 83705

If you don't remember what you pledged, don't be shy! Call me and I can tell you what the damages are - we want to make this as painless as possible!

Thank you ALL for your support!

Melissa
Wildland Firefighter Foundation

If you've forgotten you can also email Ab and I'll look it up. The 1st of the month paychecks will be coming in soon, like tomorrow if you have automatic deposit. Hopefully, a number of people will get their pledge in then. Ab.
9/29 The Jobs Page and Series 0462 (Forestry Technician) & Series 0455 (Range Technician) jobs pages and Series 0401 ("professional" Biologist) are updated. Ab.
9/29 Joatmon:

Any letter writing campaign must be a coordinated effort. If you have folks all over trying to say the same thing but presenting it in different, uncoordinated ways, at some point the recipients of the letters are going to ask "what is it that they really want?"

That's not to say that as a federal wildland firefighter you can't write your own representative and say whatever you want about the issues. But its important that whatever message you send is the same message that others are sending to their elected officials.

So, lets start with you. If you want to e-mail me directly at FWFSAlobby@aol and simply let me know what state you live in and where, I'll e-mail you back with contact information for both that person's district & DC office.

While the FWFSA certainly doesn't hold a monopoly on educating and communicating with congress, it would be nice to get a copy of whatever is sent out to elected officials to ensure we're all on the same page.

With respect to agencies being embarrassed, most federal agencies we have to deal with do enough to embarrass themselves each day to the media without our help. We've also got to ensure we don't look like a bunch of malcontent whiners. That's why, at least in my opinion, it is far better to educate than criticize... yes I know, I can be somewhat critical of things myself. However there is a time and place for it.

I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that if you or anyone wants to become proactive, let's make sure it is a coordinated effort to ensure we get the right message to those it is directed to.

Casey
9/29 Here is a nice view of a column from Mt. Wilson. I'm not sure which fire it is,
but is sure is burning hot!

http://webcambiglook.com/wilson.html

Also, we have a vacancy for a GS-455-6/7 Dispatcher, which just opened
today in Roswell, NM. Would appreciate your help in getting the word out.

Thanks!
Vivian : )

P.S. Feel free to give my number, to anyone interested in the vacancy.

I posted the info on the jobs page as well. Ab.
9/29 Firefighters,

Keep up the good work of saving homes while fighting fire safely in SoCal.

I heard an interview on CNN from a grateful homeowner in Thousand Oaks.
She tagged a comment on the end. "We appreciate what these guys do...
That's why we need to keep our firefighters, our teachers and our police."

Good plug for the firefighters and against the propositions in the CA
"Terminator's" special election.

SoCal CDF
9/29 Any idea why "Q" says that ADs can't be EDSPs in R-5
I go on fire assignments as EDSD or EDSP in other regions (in Expanded)
and the room is full of ADs.

Rick

Ab comments as a taxpayer:
It could be problematic to have a non-govt person overseeing those who decide which resources are dispatched or directly deciding which resources are dispatched to a fire. Money is involved. There could be a real or perceived conflict of interest. For example, it might be hard to defend against future claims of favoritism or cronyism if ADs have the last say in which non-fed fire suppression resources are ordered. In the last few years there have been two non-R5 teams that have had to evaluate whether their team members from the private sector steered more business to their business co-workers. An AD who does not work for a company (or state, local non-fed etc) fire organization would be in a somewhat different category. But if that AD has affiliations they could profit from as a result of their decisions, a real or apparent conflict of interest could exist. Ab.
9/29 Casey,

Ahhh, the second way was the, "knee-jerk" reaction......I'm just wondering if a river of
letters might trigger one....

We've all seen how fast the agencies can change policy when they become embarrassed...

So what do you think? Should we all write letters to the mainstream media everyday or
do you think it's a waste of time?

Respectfully,
Joatmon
9/29 Firenwater,

Here are names and numbers you may need-FEMA PIO-Bill Laymon-504-202-xxxx,
Jim Krugman`s type 1 team PIO-Dennis Neill-407-703-xxxx.

I hope this may help. And yes we are here in numbers and we are being used everywhere
you can imagine and some I am sure you cannot imagine unless you were here.

Take care and stay safe,

Arlo

Thanks Arlo. Ab is passing these numbers on to firenwater. Anyone else needs them, please email.
9/28 Ab, here are some photos of air tankers. All were taken at Fox (Air Tanker Base) Field in Lancaster, CA a few years ago. I don't recall the date. I just take pictures of aircraft as a hobby, I was in aerospace 31 years. I can't give you any info on these planes, except for the type, C-54, C-130 etc.

Anyway enjoy.

Bob West

Thanks I put them on the AirTankers 20 photo page. Ab.
9/28 From Firescribe:

Fire Near Chatsworth CA Erupts Amid Strong Winds

Fires Burn More Than 2,500 Acres in Calif.

Could someone please let us know about the injured firefighter. Best wishes. Ab.
9/28 Ab,

Here are some photos from the Topanga Fire I took this afternoon
at the Helispot in Simi Valley.

-Amanda

Thanks for the quick photos. Ab.
9/28 Robwn Foam Fix:

I am trying to get this out to all of the frustrated Robwen users especially
those that have an S&S rig. I would also like to hear some feed back on
this modification.
Thanks-

Ben H

Ab will pass the ppt on.
9/28 Lots of fires in SoCal today. See the Hot List Forum.
I heard from my mom that they're even making news
on CNN.

Todd
9/28 To: Proud of my job,

Are you really? If you were you wouldn't compare or even mention the fast food industry in the same sentence with the fire service. The FWFSA is doing everything they can do to try and fix the issues, problems and shortcomings that have been placed upon the USFS. They are doing it the right way and not the way that could delay positive outcomes. I worked for the USFS for 12 years ( Hotshots and engines) and felt the pain of low pay and substandard benefits. I also had the privilege of working with the best people in the world that always kept a positive attitude and led us well. So to hear a fellow firefighter even belittle what we do for a living really pisses me off. Do yourself a favor, take a part time job at one of those before mentioned places and tell me if the grass is still greener. Or better yet be proactive join the FWFSA, write letters or join a support group for sniveling pot stirrers.

Signed,

I only flip burgers at crew functions
9/28 I am taking a firefighting class and have been asked to define the following "wildland" terms. I have looked everywhere and cannot locate the following two:

1. Wide Canyon
2. Saddles

Also - What determines the color of a flame? Give an example.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Your web site has already helped me a GREAT deal! Thanks!

LV

For the color of flame question, google on the following: "color of flame" combustion.
Alternatively, Ask Jeeves "Why are fire and flames colored?" (Hint: Think of what is required for fire to burn.)

Look up Canyon in the dictionary.
A Wide Canyon is just a wide one: the Grand Canyon is one grand extreme. Canyons increase the possibility for fire to spread into fuels across the drainage due to spotting or radiation. All other things being equal, the narrower the canyon, the more likely such spread will occur. Canyons also influence air flow which influences direction of fire spread, rate of spread or intensity. Such air flow is likely to change during the day. During a fire, it's good to ask locals if there are typical up-canyon or down-canyon breezes or winds at particular times of day. Set trigger points to reevaluate fire behavior in light of the expected shift in air flow.

For Saddle go to our acronym glossary page (link at the top of theysaid) and then, under definitions in the top box, choose the Complete NWCG - ICS Fire Glossary (pdf). Hint: Think of the shape of a cowboy's saddle.) Air movement influences direction, intensity and rate of fire spread. Saddles and mountain passes constrict air movement and can speed it up or create an upslope wind. This happened on the Cedar Fire and was a contributing factor to the deadly burnover. Know how to read a topo map and visually evaluate the topography you find yourself in when you're fighting fire.

Ab comment: Before your training is done, be sure you know the effects of slope, aspect (N, S, E or W facing slope) and time of day on fire behavior.

Have fun.

Ab.
9/28 Joatmon:

You stand corrected on your assessment that there are only two ways to improve pay and benefits for federal wildland firefighters, 1) being join the FWFSA or 2) the quicker way and write letters. (There is no quick way)

There is only one way...Join the FWFSA AND help with a coordinated letter writing effort.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
9/28 Firen Water,

I agree with writing the Media. There are only two ways Federal Firefighters ...(oops, thanks Dan... TECHNICIANS )....will ever get the pay and recognition deserved from the agencies...

1. Join the FWFSA and change law.

OR

2. Cause a knee-jerk reaction. (this seems to be the faster way to do biz...)

If everybody writes a letter a day (or more...) to the mainstream media, how long would it really take for them to run a story?... I mean, that's alot of letters!! I'm not talking about writing to them about ALL our issues, let's just start with recognition for our IMTs and crews involved in the disaster work...

WANNA TRY IT FOLKS??!!......let's keep it short and sweet.....

There, I just wrote to:

-Good Morning America (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=158076)
-The O'Rielly Factor (www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html)

Joatmon

Ab added the contact links.
9/28 Hey all!

I've been following the hurricane response by "federal agencies" and am completely baffled as to why there is virtually no mention in the national media of the wildland fire service and its personnel, who are helping with all aspects of the recovery effort. According to the link Ab posted below, we have over 5000 folks out there. A local paper has a picture with a flattened landscape and firefighters in nomex walking in the foreground. I could't find that picture on the internet, but found this one: In receding floodwaters, more damage found. Why is it our people are not mentioned?? On CNN there was a report about a couple of native crews from the southwest, but they were referred to as "law enforcement crews". What's up with that??

With all the Incident Management Teams out there, isn't there one single Information Officer that is working to get us proper recognition? Or dare I suggest that there is some effort at the Washington level to downplay our involvement so that the public and congress won't recognize that the the old firefighting workforce has completely crossed the line into national incident and emergency management professionals? Maybe there is a little paranoia that the wildland fire service might get taken away from the agencies and joined together in a professional organization with a clear mission having nothing to do with cleaning the toilets in campgrounds.

Many of us already know our incident management teams provide the leadership and organization FEMA is sadly lacking. We are the ones that have been teaching THEM, not the other way around.

At the very least, I would encourage people to ask your Congressman or Senator if they know how much support the wildland fire service is providing for hurricane support. Do it in relation to the effort of the FWFSA in getting HR 408 passed, or if you are radical enough, ask them why the Wildland fire service isn't its own entity.

And while you are at it, write in to CNN or Fox or your favorite news service and ask them why they haven't noticed the thousands of incident management personnel sponsored by the resource management agencies. Haven't they figured out what yellow and green nomex looks like?

FirenWater

Current Info:
Current Katrina-Rita Briefing Paper (pdf file)
Map of Resources (pdf file)
9/28 Just wondered if there is information out there on what roles our
FF's have in the hurricane relief.

Merci
9/28 Well 'Proud of my job'...

You apparently miss Lobotomy's point! I am proud of my job too, but when they
kick me out at 57 after dedicating my career to 'saving lives, property, resources,
as well as helping people in need' I would like to be somewhere above the poverty
line. Lobotomy and others work tirelessly to help better our lot as federal firefighters...
um... 'forestry technicians', and that should be lauded, not degraded with flippant
posts on this board.

Dan Felix (yes, I signed my real name because I believe this is important!)
9/28 Well AB,
I have been gone for awhile once again and am trying to keep up with what everybody has been up to and what is being said.

Reading what Casey was saying about the government contracting out firefighting work is worrisome. It may seem at this time that it will never be done, but the rising cost of fighting fire nowadays you never know with those people in DC. If they think they can get someone else to do it cheaper, ( I didn't say safer) they will do it.

Now onto a funnier side, how's this for a t-shirt? On the front it says," Smoking is Hazardous for your Health." and on the back it shows a smoker with a cigarette butt at their feet and a fire burning in the distance and he is being advanced upon by two fire fighters carrying pulaskies. Wouldn't that scare you into not smoking? I know I've a sick sense of humor.

Cris
9/28 Ab,

Since everyone has a cell phone these days to keep in touch with families, friends, etc., I thought I would pass this on. The last thing you need during a fire is this going on...

31 days from Aug. 27 (this means in the next day or so), cell phone numbers are being released to telemarketing companies and you will start to receive sale calls. You will be charged for these calls.

To prevent this, call the following number from your cell phone: (888) 382-1222. It is the National DO NOT CALL list. It will only take a minute of your time. It blocks your number for five (5) years.

Or you can register online at www.donotcall.gov.

Hope everyone is staying safe out there during these rescue and cleanup operations in the South and all the lightening fires in the West. Call home, get rest, and be careful!!

Lori

Lori, that specific email about the 31 days has been floating around: it's listed as an urban legend. BUT Consumer Union (which puts out Consumer Report) had to fight hard to get cell phones included on the do not call registry, thereby letting consumers control who they get calls from and what they get charged. Urban legend or not, I recommend that people put their cell phone numbers on the do not call list. My whole family and many friends have. Why give the money grubbing marketers so much as a potential foot in the door? Can you tell I hate those harassing calls? Ab.
9/28 Proud of my job,

hmmmm, I'm proud of my job too.....

I sure don't like the pay comparisons much though. Does that mean I should quit also? BROTHER, if I hear another person blab, "If you don't like it, don't cash the check..." I'll friggin' puke. Come up with something better will ya folks? We ALL have pride in our work.

You MUST be from R-5..................yeah i'm kidding. Don't forget, not all regions are the same......

If you are from R-5, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Oh, and by the way, "In-N-Out" serves it piping hot!

-Joatmon
9/28 Proud of my job,

You are correct….. McDonalds is also hiring, but they have lost their edge as an entry level employer of choice in many areas. After years of being the “employer of choice”, McDonalds has lost their competitiveness in the fast food industry.

The important fact is that McDonalds is hiring, but they are having a hard time competing with In-N-Out burger because In-N-Out offers better wages, benefits, working conditions, and work schedules. (Yes, McDonalds is receiving the greatest budget (income) than others in the industry, but they are also some of the poorest examples of making a buck off employees just to sell burgers or meet their mission.) Being the biggest does not necessarily account for being the best as employees are concerned.

The federal wildland fire agencies are also having the same problems as McDonalds in that the federal wildland fire agencies compete to recruit and retain a diverse workforce. The big difference is that it takes lots of training, experience, and mentoring to develop wildland firefighters and fire managers to keep people safe and meet the mission.

If you consistently offer lower wages, benefits, working conditions, and work schedules than others in your industry or profession, you will not be able to maintain a stable and safe workforce. This causes recruitment and retention issues at all levels regardless of how much someone enjoys or has pride in a career. People need to have a salary and benefits package commensurate with the risks of the profession. This is a simple business model concept.

McDonalds can rely upon a constant supply of “willing and able” new employees to revolve through their hiring process and then leave for better jobs. Federal Wildland fire agencies cannot. The basis is safety. We need to be able to recruit, retain, and train the “cream of the crop” who are concentrated on safety while accomplishing the wildland fire mission.

Safety is near the bottom of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Also, near the bottom of the pyramid are basic things such as clothing, shelter, and food that wildland firefighters must provide for themselves and their families. Pride is near the top of Maslow’s Hierarchy and frequently causes failures at the lowest levels.

When you invert Maslow’s pyramid, bad things start happening. When Pride overtakes basic needs of survival, as vividly shown in Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why?, accidents begin to occur. If the pyramid is inverted, bad things start happening to good people at all levels. Psychology and sociology are some of the greatest strengths and weaknesses of the wildland fire community that we are all just beginning to learn about.

Did someone say I was going to quit?

Not to get too religious on you but remember that Pride is one of the 7 Deadly (Cardinal) Sins. http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/pride.html . Don’t topple the pyramid by being too proud of what you do as a wildland firefighter.

When you are so proud, you lose sight of the basic needs of yourself, your family, and others around you with the simple hint that you provided….. You said, “We must still remember the fact that we take home more than just a paycheck, yes it would be nice to take home a larger one. However we also take home pride, pride of saving lives, property, resources, as well as helping people in need of more than just a tasty burger.”

B.S (Bravo Shiite). - Concentrate on the basics. The basics are the root of safety and productivity when you start understanding the science as I and others are trying to do. Pride does not feed the family, or provide for safety, or buy you a house in the area you work in. “Bad things happen to good people” if we continue to forget the basics of psychology and sociology as they drive our decisions as wildland firefighters and managers for our needs to feel good over our basic needs of SAFETY.

Lobotomy
9/28 I think Mollysboy said it best, Doesn’t matter on the color of the uniform that they used to wear, just as long as they know what they are doing, can train others to know what they are doing, is a good person, and fights fire aggressively, having provided for safety first…….right!!! Why not have a little pride in your outfit and welcome some new blood to the engine.

I work in south west R-6, and I would love to have some new people around, new captain, new AFMO, new FMO, new fire staff. Heck new management all around.

Just remember, if yer’ not fightin’ fire, your gittn’ ready to fight fire.

Fire Cat
9/27 This is in response to the gentlemen who made the comparison of our wages
and a local burger joint in California. We must still remember the fact
that we take home more than just a paycheck, yes it would be nice to take
home a larger one. However we also take home pride, pride of saving lives,
property, resources, as well as helping people in need of more than just a
tasty burger. So if you don't like it quit I hear McDonalds is hiring as
well.

Signed
Proud of my job
9/27 Abs here, but no emails to post.

An Ab and an "Ab in training" are having a great time "playing" this morning. "Original", we hope you're having as much fun as we are! Wish you were here or that we were there!

Lightning fires (CA) reported on the Hot List Forum. Thanks for taking care of business, firefighters...

Ab.
9/26 Getting some lightning in northern and southern CA and in NV as well.

https://thunderstorm.vaisala.com/tux/jsp/explorer/explorer.jsp

Todd
9/26 North Cal. has also sent Redding IHC, Mad River T2 (SRF), Trinity T2 (SHF), and
Redding Smokejumpers put together a T1 crew also, all are down TX & MS way
helping out with Katrina and Rita recovery.

NOPSer
9/26 Follow-up note regarding the Plumas Hotshot who lost some teeth:
I called dispatch. He's doing fine and is with the crew.

Mellie
9/26 Regarding the comments about USFS Info Officers not doing enough to tell the success stories of Fire folks supporting the Hurricane recovery efforts, try to understand that they don't always "march to their own beat".

The Forest Service is under the Department of Ag (hence the boring name "USDA Forest Service" instead of the old US Forest Service that us old timers still use!), and the Assistant Secretaries like Mark Rey and Jim Lyons have kept a tight rein on the news that goes out: Democrat or Republican, they bring their "own folks" into key PAO positions to be sure that the news releases support the Administration's official position: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job!"

When FEMA started getting blasted a few weeks ago, Mark Rey authorized the USFS Info Officers at NIFC to start telling the Federal Fire success stories from Katrina, Ophelia and Rita (check out the www.fs.fed.us/fire web site for a good PR release. "See, there are Fed agencies doing real good stuff to support the Hurricane effort!")

It's been like that for mucho years, be it Hurricane support, fire investigation results or positions on roading areas that impact T&E species: the Agencies work for the Prez, and have to toe the line and spout the company position (or lack of one).

Aberdeen
9/26 Dear Thinking Outside the Box:

You summed it up quite well with respect to advertising campaigns... they are expensive. I recently looked at placing an ad regarding needed support for HR 408 in a paper that most members of congress look at each day and the price was about $5,000.

The important thing to know is that those (in congress) that can make a difference in your life and affect positive change in pay, benefits and working conditions are being educated each day by the FWFSA on what you do, how you do it, etc.

In fact as you may recall recently on They Said, I posted a "Dear Colleague" letter from Congressman Pombo sent to the rest of his congressional colleagues which reminded them of what you do and the work many of you are doing in the Gulf States.

Those folks - the ones who authorize and appropriate the dollars to the land-management agencies - are the ones who really need to be constantly educated. Ad campaigns are nice. In fact, I will be proposing to the FWFSA Board that prior to next fire season we contact networks and offer to do some public service announcements.

Additionally, there is certainly nothing wrong with each and every one of you writing, faxing, e-mailing or calling, your congressional representatives. Tell them who you are (a voter # 1), what you do, what you want them to know about the issues that affect you and what they can do to help.

We'll have some grass roots lobbying ideas presented at our Conference in Reno.

So for now, please know that the message about who you are and what you do is getting to the right people. Also please keep in mind that we are competing with every other group, business or entity that wants $$ from congress so we need to be persistent without being pesky. I cannot tell you how important the local firefighter's voice is in all of this.

If anyone wants information on who to contact and how to contact them with respect to educating them on what you do and what your issues are, please feel free to e-mail me directly at FWFSAlobby@aol.com.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA
9/26 From a variety of sources this is what we're hearing on California IHCs and RHCs heading to hurricane relief...

From SoCal...

  • Arroyo Seco RHC, ANF, en route to Lufkin TX.
  • Horseshoe Meadow IHC en route to Lufkin TX.
  • Palomar RHC,
  • Stanislaus IHC is going to Stennis MS,
  • Vista Grande IHC, BDF, is on the way to TX.

IHCs and RHCs from NorCal are also flying to Texas to support Hurricane Rita today:

  • Diamond Mountain IHC,
  • Elk Mountain,
  • Plumas IHC, PNF, to Lufkin TX
  • Shasta Lake.

Anyone know any others from anywhere in the US?

Keep your saws sharp, keep water outta your gas! Be safe.

JS
9/26 Dear Yac:

The concept of getting fire & aviation out of the land-management agencies is certainly not new. As an organization, the FWFSA has discussed the issue informally and I frequently address it in DC. However a strategic plan to accomplish this has not been adopted formally by the FWFSA.

Perhaps the single greatest reason is the complexity of the action. As you may know, DoD federal firefighters are apparently headed to being under Homeland Security. As a result, employee rights will be diminished substantially in the name of national security. Additionally, labor unions (NFFE) who represent federal wildland firefighters contractually, would have to weigh in on any such proposal since they have exclusive bargaining rights. The complexity of getting such a move done exists, despite the idea itself being relatively simple.

The issues the FWFSA is tackling now have been the issues brought forth through the voice of its members for many, many years. Quite candidly, I think we've progressed a bit more rapidly since our disaffiliation from the IAFF and thus our ability to move our legislative agenda the way we want to.

We have to take on the issues that present themselves currently... that is the fact that our firefighters are employed by the land-management agencies. As we progress on bringing pay, benefits and working conditions up to speed, we obviously send out feelers about the idea of moving fire and aviation out of the Agencies.

If however, on a personal note, you are a member of the FWFSA, then the appropriate course of action would be to attend the conference in Reno and submit a resolution to the membership that addresses the issue, outlines a strategic plan and allows the membership to take action on the proposal.

There have also been a couple of tries at looking at a federal wildland fire agency and in fact the GAO (General Accounting Office) submitted a report to Congress a number of years ago suggesting the idea was not a good one. Of course, we all know times have changed and maybe it deserves another look.

Call me any time to discuss this.

Casey
9/26 Ab,

Our teams, crews and other resources are working hard.

Status of Fire (All Risk) Resources on Hurricanes Katrina & Rita:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/sacc/predictive/intelligence/KatrinaBriefingPaper.pdf (pdf file)

Map of Katrina-Rita Resources:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/sacc/predictive/intelligence/Resource_Map.pdf (pdf file)

Todd
9/26 Re: "...Our Public Info Officers are also missing the boat when there is SO LITTLE mention of our efforts in the disaster in the media!..."

If the US Forest Service was a private corporation the entire Marketing Department would have been fired a long time ago. In my career as a "Forestry Technician" no one knows what I do for the US Forest Service, never less that we fight fire, or even have the Largest Fire Department in the US. I am called every thing from a park ranger to a CDF firefighter almost on a weekly basis. I would like to applaud the CDF for their Marketing efforts. There are excellent, the USFS has a lot to learn. No wonder FEMA is getting all of the credit for the IMTs and crews working at Katrina.

I have never once seen a commercial or ad to come and visit our National Forests. The National Public has no clue to who the US Forest Service is. There are all kinds of ads out there for total bazaar things brought to you by the Ad Council for federal programs, but I never have seen one for Federal Firefighters or the US Forest Service. It seems there is money out there for other Government Agencies, heck the US Postal Service used to sponsor a cycling team, and the armed forces sponsor Nascar Teams.

As a FWFSA Member I would not mind seeing an ad campaign in the media, but I am realistic and know with only a few hundred members out of the thousands of Federal Wildland Firefighters we could never afford it. But thanks to Casey and all of the FWFSA Members for all of your hard work on a shoestring budget.

Thanks Ab for the Site and all you do for the Wildland Fire Community.

Thinking Outside the Box

9/26 Charlie Lafferty "Rattlesnake Fire" is my grandfather:

Hello,

My name is Maureen C. Lafferty/Ervin and I am the 5th born grandchild to Charlie Lafferty. We all called him, "Pappy" when he was alive. He died about twelve years ago or so in Willows, CA and he was 93 years old. His wife, my grandmother, aka, "Mimi" Flora Lafferty just died last August, 2004. She was 92 years of age, she also died in Willows, CA.

I would like to first off thank you for allowing myself and other family members to learn about our grandfather more than we did. The Rattlesnake Fire Story blew my mind..... as a little girl I can remember how boring and unfair it would be on the fourth of July, because Pappy would never ever let us play with fireworks, let alone sparklers even. One year Mimi finally talked Pappy into letting my brother and older sister and I light some sparklers and hold them, but Pappy never came outside to watch us. I remember Mimi saying something like, "Pappy has a terrible sad memory of a very big fire he once experienced" so I just left it at that. I always wondered why he was so filled with anger and darkness inside of himself as I was growing up, but I always just figured that it was best to let it be. I loved him despite his negativity, for there were some happy, good times that I have memories of.

If you could, can you please send me an email response and/or any photos of my grandfather during the Rattlesnake Fire? Please, anything would be so great. Thank you so much for reading this, I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Shalom,
Maureen C. Lafferty/Ervin

Ab will forward any emails to Maureen.
9/26 Casey / Lobotomy,

You want the proper compensation, benefits, recognition and respect wildland firefighters deserve? The only way that is ever going to happen along with proper training, staffing and retention is to GET THE FIRE AND AVIATION PROGRAMS OUT OF THE LAND MANAGEMENT AGENCIES!

Do you really think that line officers and the agencies will agree that lowly “forestry and range techs” should be classified as “firefighters” and have the opportunity to put more dollars on their paychecks than the “professionals” in the land management agencies?

Do you really think that agencies that continue to put line and staff officers with minimal or NO fire qualifications in charge of National, Regional and District Fire and Aviation Programs are ever going to “get it” when it comes to proper classification, staffing and training and therefore firefighter safety??

While I have long supported the FWFSA as a member, and will continue to do so, I am not so sure that proper classification, compensation, recognition, retention and the increased safety for wildland firefighters that will follow will happen until the Land Management Agencies are stripped of the Fire and Aviation Programs…

Reynolds,

Pretty interesting the dollars we spend on Aviation assets, in particular helicopters and their support, while we pinch pennies with the ground troops .....

Yet every tactics class I have attended and / or taught stresses that the aviation resources are there to support the ground troops...... hmmmmmmm

IMTs and Supply,

Give the HOTSHOTS and other ground firefighting units what they need to get the job done!!!!!!! Who the #$%$@@%^ do you think puts out the fires???

Abs,
As always, Thanks for the forum!

With the utmost respect for the work Casey Judd, Lobotomy and others are doing for wildland firefighters,

yactak
9/26 It's good to see Rax and his crew deployed to
Gulfport, MS. It's about time the FS sends the best
and brightest to help in this time of need. I know
for a fact that this deployment did not come from the
top down, but rather from the other direction. How
about R-5 sending some more Type 1 folks down
including aircraft! I see other regions are stepping
up to the plate with deployments of Type 1 crews and
even an aerial taskforce. Good luck Rax!

Still Waiting to Help
9/25 My buddy just called me from Mississippi at the end of his assignment as a DIVS there for FEMA.

A couple of thoughts about that:

He got there early (the media must have missed that) and his FEMA briefing was short and inadequate, but as a "Forestry Tech" he is used to ' other duties as assigned'. He and his fellow "Forestry Techs" decided their mission was to 'go forth and do good things' and this became their motto.

He entered the 5 counties that were his division without knowing how to obtain fuel, food or lodging, but he made contacts (one of which threatened to throw him in jail when he identified himself as working for FEMA) and has gone on to 'do good things', teaching ICS, providing necessities to residents and rescuers alike, and becoming a confidant of the man that wanted to put him in hand cuffs.

He has fended for himself, made allies of the local politicians/community leaders, has done well with little direction and he is a GS-8 who makes less than $50,000 a year.

His reward may well be 'high 5' instead of 'high 3' and reduced support for health insurance in his retirement.

He also noted that until the IMTs got there it was chaos! While the President, DHS and FEMA give lip service to the value of ICS, they do not follow through and follow the lead of lowly 'Forestry Techs' even though we are the ones that know how to deal with incidents of ANY KIND!

Just the fact that an Engine Captain (a very savvy one, I will admit) could walk in to the worst natural disaster in this countries history and create order out of chaos should be enough for Congress and the public to realize the resource that they have in the wildland firefighter community and reward us for our efforts instead of penalize us!

If RQ and the R5 bigwigs do not see a problem with retention when this DIVS and I, and you other FSers could easily get a job elsewhere; CDF, FEMA, or other departments that pay us what we are worth, they are putting there heads in the sand.

Our Public Info Officers are also missing the boat when there is SO LITTLE mention of our efforts in the disaster in the media!

I say WAKE UP! We are the first line of defense in more than wildfires, it is time we are recognized!

Sign me,

Waiting
9/25 Dear Confused: (aren't we all!)

First and foremost, I consider "outsourcing" as the wholesale elimination of the federal wildland firefighter occupation/workforce as we know it by contracting with some mega entity to take over the job.

Yes the bean-counters in Washington like outsourcing. But when it comes to federal firefighters, congress has recognized the importance of federal employees doing the job. So much so that congress created a moratorium on contracting (outsourcing) out Dept. of Defense firefighter positions...the exception being a limited period when a military facility is being closed.

Two years ago I desperately sought the IAFF's (International Association of Fire Fighters) help when the FWFSA was still affiliated with them, to support an amendment I had written to that moratorium which would have included federal wildland firefighters as being "off limits" from outsourcing. The IAFF didn't want to "open a can of worms" and rejected our request for support.

Since then, and in fact historically, the Dept, of Defense has periodically offered legislation (quietly tucked inside massive DoD legislation) to remove the moratorium. Congress has steadfastly refused to eliminate the moratorium. As a result, you may see, or hear the land management agencies plan studies on outsourcing firefighter positions, but I truly don't see it happening.

Those in congress who don't hold the Forest Service in high regard are keenly aware of the large amount of contract operations in the Northwest and their associated costs. As an organization educating congress on those costs and suggesting to it that some of those costs get redirected to the government's own wildland firefighters (that would be you), the FWFSA has to walk a fine line.

We need support for our legislation from the very members of congress whose constituents are those contract folks in the Northwest. Thus we have actively illustrated the enormous costs of contractors and cooperators versus federal firefighters in our fight to bring you proper compensation, all the while making it clear we are not advocating the total elimination of the use of contractors and cooperators, but rather a reduction in the over-reliance of these higher-priced resources.

What would be helpful is for federal firefighters from R6 and other regions to communicate their concerns with the congressional offices from that area that we are working with to support HR 408. All anyone needs to do is e-mail me, let me know where you live and I can provide you the name and contact information for the offices we are seeking support from.

The bottom line is that despite what you hear from the land-management agencies about reduced budgets etc., and despite the increasing frequency of congressional inquiries as to how the Forest Service spends its suppression dollars, the money is still free-flowing from congress to the agencies, giving the agencies no incentive to become more cost-effective and efficient by reducing their reliance on the higher priced folks and re-directing those funds to their own firefighters by paying them properly.

All of the issues you raise are incorporated into our effort to educate congress as to what the heck is going on out in the field. The agencies certainly aren't going to tell them. Thus it becomes our job. Since those in Congress dole out the bucks expecting it to be spent on certain things, it becomes our responsibility when we discover that congress' expectations aren't being met by the agencies. Thus, I am very hopeful the FWFSA has become the proverbial thorn in the side of those agencies unwilling to properly compensate their own firefighters.

We are a small thorn right now...actively seeking to work with (what a concept) the agencies to provide you all with the compensation and benefits you deserve. However, I have no problem becoming an infection to ensure our federal wildland firefighters get not only the compensation and benefits they deserve, but also the recognition and respect that has seemed to envelop firefighters across the country since 9/11...unfortunately to the exclusion of our wildland firefighters.

Casey
9/25 need a job?

Someone mailed me this the other day...I think it was
one of my people trying to tell me something.

www.fema.gov/fima/recoveryemployment.shtm

Hickman
9/25 Fossilbird has brought up a topic that not enough folks have stood up for. Being on 10+ major fires this all with Type 1 or Type 2 IMTs on them it is getting harder to do business as a Hotshotcrew.

In the INTERAGENCY INCIDENT BUSINESS MANAGEMENT HANDBOOK CHAPTER 30 – PROPERTY MANAGEMENT Page 6 of 14 states:

4. B.
...The incident agency may authorize, through written documentation, replacement of government property items that have been destroyed or rendered otherwise unserviceable while being used on the incident. However, non-standard cache items should be replaced by the home unit. The incident agency may require that damaged property be turned in before replacement is authorized....

Non standard cache items should be replaced by the home unit. about only 40% of the items used by most Hotshot crews are cache items, and that is a generous percentage. I am curious if whoever wrote this has ever been on a hotshot crew. If we were to only use cache items and no specialty items, it would be a joke. We are not looking at getting items to be used after the fire season, or for personal use, but stuff to make our crew more productive and versatile while on assignment. With exception of a few items such as our packs, sleeping bags and tents (tents and sleeping bags available on Pro deal) we are able to purchase most items that are not available through the cache through GSA Advantage as the mandatory source for purchasing government supplies. Why can not we replace items purchased by government funds through the mandatory source that were damaged or lost on assignment? This is boggling to me.

Yes we can get some of these items replaced through Supply Numbers while on assignment, but the scrutiny we have to go through is unbearable. On the last assignment in R4 we had to have the Finance Section Chief and Supply Unit Leader APPROVE all items, then the list went to the forest that the fire was on and they had to approve the items. We still have not received our Supply Numbers - 12 days later - while our finance folks on our home unit are requiring us to allocate the funds we still have to purchase for the past fiscal year, but cannot because we are waiting for the Forest in R4 to send us the Incident Replace Requisition with the Supply numbers so the items can be ordered. All we are asking for is a stream lined way to get our damaged supplies replaced so we can be fire ready for the next large incident.

On this same incident with over 20 shot crews out on the lines, requisition of a saw guy to be in camp was turned down because it would cost $12,000 just to bring him into camp. To me this is critical link in the chain to have all of our saws working and saw parts on hand in camp so there is no down time fixing saws. They sure were not in a hurry to demobe helicopters off of Helibase when Helibase was costing $200,000 a day before rotors were even turning. Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges, but this is a big deal to me and my crew.

On the subject of not giving out vitamins at camp where it is 20 degrees in the morning and no showers available is just wrong, and should be changed immediately.

Thanks Ab for the site.

Reynolds
9/25 Re: the CDF Captains Exam Boycott

Mollysboy,

First, I don't plan on jumping ship anytime soon.

> From the In-N-Out burger website:

http://www.in-n-out.com/employment_restaurant.asp

"Great Benefits: We start all our new Associates at a minimum of $9.00 an hour for one simple reason...you are important to us! And our commitment to a higher starting wage is just one of the ways in which we show it. Another way is through offering excellent benefits like flexible schedules to accommodate school and other activities, paid vacations, free meals, comprehensive training, and a 401k plan. For our full time Associates, we provide a benefits package that also includes medical, dental, vision, life and travel insurance coverage."

For those of us not in the fast food profession, $9.00 per hour plus excellent benefits is a darn good salary and benefits package for an entry level person in their industry.

In contrast, we expect new federal wildland firefighters to make $8.63 to $9.41 per hour, have no benefits, and only work for 3-6 months of the year while accepting personal rsik and shunning family. At the same time, all levels (entry level to upper management) of the federal wildland firefighting community wonder will it ever change and how long will it take to recognize that wildland fire management is a whole lot different than forestry, range, and natural resource management. Yes, they are related and tied at the hip, but they are different professions all the same, just like biology, botany, archaeology, and countless other professions that support the federal mission of protecting the wildlands . Just like the differences between In-N-Out Burger and being a firefighter.

In-N-Out has made a commitment to being competitive to draw the best employees who are interested in the fast food industry and retain them. CDF, various state wildland agencies, and municipalities have made the same commitment. When it comes to recruitment and retention in the fire service, safety is the paramount concern. I wonder if the federal land managers and political appointees will ever get it?

Lobotomy

If you missed it, I did create this page that lists the differences... Comparison of Burger benefits to Firefighter Job. Ab.
9/24 Here is some people doing what they do best (Medford Fuels)

Jerry S

I put them on the Handcrews 19 photo page. Ab.
9/24

More handcrew photos from Washington and Oregon. Check the Handcrews 19 photo page. Ab.

Ahtanum 20 series: More photos of the Ahtanum 20 person fire crew, for Washington State DNR. These were taken while working the Wood Gulch fire, in Bickleton, WA. Photos compliments of Kris B.

Farmington Regulars: On the Blossom Complex, Agnes, Oregon, 2005. Photo Compliments of Forrest P.

9/24 Yet more handcrew and one HAZMAT photos, this time from Italy. Ab.

Nucleo di Protezion Civile A.N.A. Squadra di 2°Livello Antincendi Boschivi Regione Lombardia; Villa D'Alme' (Bergamo) Italy.

BYE BYE.
Geom. Dolce Gabriele.
9/24 Casey,

I have a question for you about the persons in DC waiting to jump on the land management agencies when they "start dissecting our firefighters, start looking at out-sourcing etc.". Are they aware of the fact that there are forests in Region 6 that contract a large amount of operations to non federal employees?

I was looking at our contract payments for the fire season and on my management zone alone, I believe that I added up payment for severity resources to over 180 thousand dollars. This is outrageous in MY opinion.

If I am doing my math correctly (I'm sure there are factors that I am unaware of to add up costs) this could pay for at least a ten person crew for an entire season ( maybe even a 20 person crew) and that crew would not be just sitting on a compound waiting for a fire to occur. They could be out doing fuels reduction work or something more productive.

Now granted, I do not know much about costs of staffing at this point in my career, but some of these things do not make sense to me at all.

I do not want the contract world to think that I don't appreciate them. The contractors are a great asset to us. One group of the contract engines that we did pay some of this money to helped out immensely and wanted to do anything they could to assist our daily operations. They went out and posted signs for us, cleaned up trash at dispersed camp sites, did patrols, and asked to do training with our regular module.

But there were times when we had severity resources just sit there for 2 weeks and not even attempt to get involved.

There is a time and place for contract resources but some of the LARGE amount of money could be used for a regular work force.

Do you have any insight to this kind of management? do you consider some of this "Outsourcing" or am I mistaken on the way that I am using the word?

sign me,

Confused about finances.
9/24 I wanted to comment on the recent postings about the CDF boycott and the idea of "hopping the fence" for better pay and benefits.

I've had the unique opportunity to not only represent federal wildland firefighters, but also Dept. of Defense (DoD) federal firefighters while also serving as a member of the California Professional Firefighters (CPF) Executive Board. The CPF Executive Board includes the CDF as its "6th District" whereas DoD federal firefighters in California make up the 5th district, a position I had the honor of serving in for 5 years.

The act of jumping fences from the federal sector to the municipal or state sector is nothing new. It has been happening for years and was a primary force behind pay reform for DoD federal firefighters in the late '90's and also serves as a focal point of our recruitment and retention concerns as we push for pay reform for our federal wildland firefighters.

The FWFSA works every day to bring our federal wildland firefighters closer to realizing the compensation and benefits they deserve that are long overdue. It is a daunting task to educate congress on what you folks do just so they can be educated on how current pay & personnel policies adversely affect our firefighters.

I would suspect that most of our federal wildland firefighters got into the business because they love what they do, not that they would get rich. However I know the frustration of watching the gap between pay and benefits for federal firefighters grow larger as compared to their counterparts.

Let's face it, the primary reason for this is that current law excludes pay and benefits from the negotiation process in the federal sector. The CDF and other agencies have the ability to negotiate such benefits. The ONLY way to improve federal pay and benefits is to change the law... and that is what the FWFSA is all about.

How do I convey to new federal wildland firefighters that staying in the federal system will make sense sooner, rather than later? How do I convince those that need to support their families that they do have a voice in their futures and can make a difference and make a change for their careers and those that follow?

How do I convince those that have put so much time in the current federal system not to retire early and create an even greater void in the infrastructure of the federal wildland firefighting community?

Personally, I make less than most federal wildland firefighters yet perform the duties that some in this business do who make 10 times as much as I do. Why? For the same reasons that those of you sticking with the federal system stay... it is our passion... It is our affection for our crews and those on the lines.

Should I and the rest of the FWFSA simply give up and watch the federal wildland firefighting community self-destruct, or do we keep working hard to bring you what you deserve? I know the easy road is to go for the bucks and I certainly admire the CDF and what it has done for its employees. But I'm here to tell you that all of you can, and should become more involved and deliver the same to our federal wildland firefighters.

Changing the law is not easy, its not quick. But I dare say there are many folks out there benefiting from the elimination of the overtime pay cap that we accomplished a few years ago. Even more will benefit if we are successful in securing portal to portal for you, proper classification, health benefits for seasonal/temp employees, hazard pay for prescribed burns etc.

We've got the attention of congress but we've got to get the attention of all of you out there that are cynical about your ability to make a difference. It's there for the taking right now, but you have to become active. Make your own federal wildland fire service "the place" to work and make a career.

A few hundred members of the FWFSA are working... and paying the freight, to bring these benefits to thousands of federal wildland firefighters across the country... many who are only now starting to hear about us and what we do, others still cynical of the federal government enough that they won't take the time to improve their own pay & benefits package.

I want to reiterate what Congressman Jon Porter (R-NV), Chairman of the Subcommittee on The Federal Workforce & Agency Organization said on the record at hearings for HR 408 just last month. He stated that his priorities were to "properly classify our federal wildland firefighters and bring them the compensation reform they deserve."

Further, if a representative from the Nevada Professional Firefighters can appear at the hearings and offer their support for our federal wildland firefighters, and testify that you deserve portal to portal pay and other benefits that the FWFSA is working for, then surely you can join our own efforts to improve your lives, improve your safety and bring greater peace of mind to your families.

I don't know if the FWFSA will take a position on the "boycott." But at this point, having busted my butt for so long and watched others spend years doing the same for federal wildland firefighters, I would urge all of you to stay where you're at in the federal system. Don't fall victim to the bureaucratic rhetoric from the Agencies about budget cuts, reduced staffing etc.

We've got folks in DC just waiting to go after the land-management agencies if they start dissecting our firefighters, start looking at out-sourcing etc. However, you all must realize that it makes our job that much harder if we don't have a strong voice across the federal wildland firefighting community.

You want to go to the CDF or other "greener pastures"? Go Ahead. If you want to do what you do best and fight, and claw and get dirty for what you believe, then I'm right along side of you. I've always told the members of the FWFSA that I want them to know that when they are on the lines, in some remote, inhospitable place, tired, hungry, smelly etc., that someone (the FWFSA) has their backs and is fighting for them just as hard as they are fighting in the field.

If you want to join us, you know where to find us. FWFSAlobby @aol.com or (916) 515-1224.

I'm waitin' for the call...

With Great Respect for All of you,

Casey Judd
Business Manager
Federal Wildland Fire Service Assn.
9/24 Re Boycott of the CDF Captain testing:
Mollysboy, it wasn’t a joke. I see it in my area also.

I read the request for a boycott of the CDF Captain testing the same way… I think. But, I don’t work for CDF so I don’t profess to know why they opened the hiring process again to people from outside of CDF, but I do know some good folks from CDF that were former federal wildland firefighters that are now Division Chiefs, Battalion Chiefs, Fire Captains, Engineers (FAE), Firefighter 2, and Firefighter 1 employees.

My guess is that CDF is probably having similar problems as the federal agencies are having….. lower pay than surrounding agencies that are affecting recruitment and retention of the most qualified employees and the safety that comes with experience and training.

If I am correct, in some areas of California, a CDF employee can apply to become a Firefighter 1 and then promote to FC-A or FC-B within just four to six years after completing CAL-JATP due to the extreme number of vacancies and the need to provide jurisdictional protection of natural resources and communities?

I know that in some areas of California, the progression is usually from Firefighter 1 (Seasonal) to Firefighter 2 to FAE to FC-A or FC-B (That version may take an additional year or so)….. In most areas that do not have Schedule A contracts (most of the state), the usual progression is Firefighter 1 to FAE to Captain… in as little as four years for people who know how to work the system, take promotional exams, and fill out supplemental questionnaires.

If I was a member of a Union or the CPF, I would look at safety as the over-riding factor and not send out those e-mails and press releases that Local 2881, CPF, and the IAFF did.

Those press releases were a big slap in the face of the wildland fire community once again. Everyone who is a true wildland firefighter wants the most qualified, experienced, and trained supervisor they can get to be their boss at all levels of the wildland fire community, regardless of the former color of their shirts or fire engines. The goal is not money… it is for everyone in the wildland fire community, regardless of agency or affiliation, to come home safe after each fire.

Rogue Rivers
9/24 CDF

I just finished my APP and it will be in the mail on Monday. Molly I agreed with everything you said up until you slammed CDF with your comment on the Cedar and Tuolumne fires. All agencies have lost firefighters in the line of duty, we can't finger point to one agency. If you're with a Federal agency, are you proud of the Cramer or Storm King fires? That is why I feel we can't finger point when a tragedy happens to a specific agency. Instead we need to look at what happened and share with everyone how that tragedy could be avoided no matter what agency you're with.

Maybe an ex-R5er
9/24 CDF

I strongly urge those who desire to take the upcoming Calif. Department of Forestry and Fire Protection examination for Fire Captain to do so! Why would you purposely deny yourself a chance at a better position? I believe the union is making a terrible mistake on this one! They (Union) don't want the current TAU Engineer's to take the exam but I'm sure that they will take dues from whoever passes the thing. Bad advice from the Union...TAKE THE EXAM, you can always choose not to accept any positions offered if you are successful. Good luck.

COPTER100
9/23 hey folks,

just wanted to throw a "get well" out there to the plumas hotshot who got his teeth
smashed out by some sort of flying crap after that snag fell....

hope you can grin and bear it.....: )

hope your other folks are OK too....

also just wanted to ask the community their opinions about being taken off the clock
@ 2030 and sent out into the green, with nothing but a space-blanket? does that
really constitute "reasonable accommodations"?

sign me,
still loving the green team...
9/23 Here is one of many excellent examples of Interagency Incident Management Teams performing the ESF function (ESF 4 – Firefighting) of the National Response Plan. (From the ICS-209).

It is also an excellent example of an IIMT doing what they do best, managing an incident as a team, or through Unified Command.

1: Date
09/23/2005

2: Time
1700

5: Incident Name
Katrina Holy Cross

6: Incident Kind
Hurricane

9: Incident Commander
Anderson

14: Short Location Description (in reference to nearest town):
New Orleans

34: Significant events today (closures, evacuations, significant progress made, etc.):
Three emergency calls were responded to. The area was under a tropical storm warning most of the day. Rain squalls, high winds, tornado warnings and funnel cloud sightings were experienced throughout last night and today. Several leaks and breeches of the levees were reported as well as renewal flooding in portions of the city.

39: Actions planned for next operational period:
Continue staffing fire stations where possible and providing fire and emergency response to the City of New Orleans. Continue monitoring Hurricane Rita and evaluating necessity of evacuating from New Orleans. Determine extent of flooding due to Hurricane Rita.

44: Remarks:
This incident is being managed under unified command with PNW Team 3, New Orleans FD, New York FD, and Illinois FD. An evacuation plan has been prepared and is ready to be implemented in the event that Hurricane Rita threatens the area, although it no longer appears to be a serious threat to New Orleans.

Lobotomy

And this use of wildland firefighters is multiplied many times over: Katrina-Rita Resources Map (pdf file). Ab.
9/23 I’m confused. Are you guys complaining about the CDF pay? Hasn’t this website
been talking about portal to portal and better pay and benefits? Ignore the CPF and
CDFF boycott. If the in house FAEs are worth anything, they will do fine on the
test. If they can’t do well, would you really want them in a red hat?

Apply

“Another CDF BC”
9/23 Here is a collection of news articles about communications during Katrina.

Katrina - Interoperability of Communications

COMT

Looks interesting. Ab.
9/23 state rappellers reply

The California Department of Forestry does not rappel, but they do perform “short haul” rescues. Under strict rules/procedures, if a firefighter on the line is injured and they can not be transported by other means, the CDF Helitack crew is trained to deploy a rescuer at the scene.

The helicopter is rigged for the short haul; the rescuer is lowered by those in the helicopter to the ground. After the rescuer assesses the victim, a Stokes and additional rescuers can be lowered to the ground. The victim is loaded/secured in the Stokes, attached to the rope along with a rescuer and flown hanging under the helicopter to the nearest appropriate landing site.

Firefly
9/23 Ab,

Here are some pictures of the new Stanza Memorial that was dedicated at the end of
July. The memorial is located in Chester, Ca. As you can see it is still a work in progress.

I'm from the Klamath and I personally have seen what remains of the engine and so I think
these pics should be up to respect the crew.

thanks, Risky

Memorial to Heather, Steve & John
9/23 Dam*..

A CDF Crew Captain or Engine Captain makes the same amount on a base salary that I do with 800 hours of overtime and they get paid for all hours away from home and don't have to sleep in the dirt or in tents.... and I have been with the feds for over twenty years....... Why wouldn't I jump ship and take a downgrade in position and get to be able to communicate with my family amd friends and stay in a nice place when recuperating from fires?

I wonder what a CDF Captain would make with 800 hrs. of unplanned overtime? Why would I not want to “Double Your Salary and Triple Your Benefits and Retirement” as Just the Facts said.

Gizmo
9/23 "Just the Facts" - your latest post was just a big joke, right?

The CDF Union and CPF Union don't really expect qualified and competent folks from outside of CDF to boycott an application process that would allow them to make nearly $75,000 per year so that no "great harm would come to their CDF brothers and sisters"? A greater risk for "harm" comes from have less than the best as your leaders in a fire situation!

Always seemed to me that Mother Nature and wildland fire never looked at your Union pin before it kicked your butt! I've always wanted the best and the brightest to cover my backside in a tight situation, not just someone who "paid their Union dues". If the most highly qualified candidate comes from outside the CDF, so be it: maybe we won't have to read another "Cedar" fire or "Tuolumne" fire fatality report in the years ahead.

Want to get promoted because you're a member of the "good ole boys club"? Become a lawyer and apply for the job as Director of FEMA. Want to be a front-line wildland fire supervisor: be the best qualified and beat out all competitors, regardless of the color of the shirt you now wear! The safety of others will likely depend on you and your skills!

Mollysboy
9/23 Sign Me… Just the Facts… you omitted the CDF benefit package.

* inexpensive medical, dental & vision insurance; training & travel expense
reimbursement; uniform allowance; physical fitness allowance; and an
incredible safety retirement plan with built in COLAs.

Does any other state offer similar benefits?
Professional wildland firefighting has never been "even ground".
Hope springs eternal.

northzone
9/22 /HC/

I went to the CPF site and Steven, John, and Heather's names are all listed as being on the memorial. It doesn't say what year they were put on there so I can't help you there. I remember meeting Steve at a retirement party up in Chester. What a character! He definitely made an impression and John and I were saddened upon hearing of his death. John enjoyed working with him and everyone else up on the Almanor Ranger District while he was on a detail up there.

Lori Greeno
9/22 The names of the fallen firefighters from the Stanza tragedy have been added
to the wall in Sacramento. Also the Memorial has finally been finished at the
Alamanor Ranger District office in Chester.

Pyrolysis

I'm working on some photos of the new memorial at Chester. Ab.
9/22 Ab,

How many IMT’s are there in the country? Are there 4 Area Command Teams?

Pumba

Check the Type I and II IMT pages. Look on the Links page under federal. Ab.
9/22 Have the names of those lost at the Stanza Fire already been added to the
monument in Sacramento? I noticed in Lori Greeno's note that there were
names back to 2002 and was wondering about those folks.

Thanks,
/HC/
9/22 Re: CDF Captains Exam and "Is There Competition with In-N-Out Burger"? www.fire.ca.gov/php/careers_content/downloads/05FCBull.pdf

Fire Captain

Range A $3648 - $4432 (plus planned overtime of $1857 - $2256 per month)

Range B $4004 - $4865 (plus planned overtime of $2037 - $2476 per month)

CDF Firefighter 1 (Seasonal Firefighter)

$2333 - $2837, plus planned overtime and benefits.

CDF Food Service Technician 1 (Ab, could you provide a link here for the 2/18/2005 post from Lobotomy regarding In-N-Out burger and how they have better pay and benefits etc…thanks)

$1929 - $2343, plus state benefits.

The contents of the following two e-mail press releases are circulating around. I thought they should be made more visible to highlight three things… 1) How poorly federal wildland firefighters are paid in relation to their counterparts in California and nationwide, 2) How certain groups are afraid of the qualifications and experience from federal wildland agencies may affect their hiring, promotion, and retention, and 3) Why the USFS is losing its “cream of the crop” to other agencies and professions nationwide due to poor pay, benefits, and working conditions.

CPF Requests Boycott of CDF Fire Captains Exam

The California Professional Firefighters are echoing the call made by CDF Firefighters Local 2881 to boycott the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection open Fire Captains Exam.

The Exam announcement went out late last week, and goes against the policy of CDF Firefighters Local 2881, that appointments made to the CDF Fire Captain classification come from within CDF through closed promotional exams only. Fire service personnel who file for the exam do so at great harm to their CDF Firefighters brothers and sisters. We are requesting the support and compliance from our brothers and sisters to not file for this exam. We thank you for your consideration in this matter. If you have any questions you may contact CDF Firefighters Local 2881 at (916) 609-8700.

(and)

CDF Firefighters Local 2881 Calls for Exam Boycott

September 12, 2005 – The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF) Firefighters Local 2881 is calling for a boycott of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection open Fire Captains Exam.

The availability of the exam was announced earlier this month; however, the open exam goes against Local 2881’s promotion policy which dictates that in order for a fire fighter to be appointed to the CDF Fire Captain Classification, the applicant must already be a CDF employee who has completed the California Joint Apprenticeship program as a journeyman and is performing the duties of a fire apparatus engineer.

Opening captains’ positions to everyone effectively takes away a promotional opportunity from the affiliate’s members and permits non-journeyed employees to hold company officers positions within the CDF.

For more information about the boycott, contact CDF Firefighters Local 2881 at (916) 609-8700.

I feel the pain of the groups that oppose the open recruitment list but it’s a game of “Double Your Salary and Triple Your Benefits and Retirement”.

Heck, even the Food Service Technician 1 position will double the salary and benefits that an entry level federal wildland firefighter gets, and the only requirements are “Six months of experience in an institution, hotel, or restaurant, either serving, cleaning food service areas, or assisting with the preparation and service of foods and beverages. (Completion of the eighth grade may be substituted for the required experience.)

A CDF Fire Captain (with planned overtime) makes the base salary of our Deputy Chief (Forest AFMO).

“Employees in the class of Food Service Technician I are assigned to help the cooking staff in the kitchen, serve food in a dining area, stock the food, and to clean up after meals are served. Food is served cafeteria style. In the dining areas, employees will be required to do table work (e.g., refill condiments, clean tables). In the kitchen areas, employees perform the routine work of preparing food for cooking, cleaning and maintaining equipment, utensils, and supplies.”

Sign Me… Just the Facts…

…. And, a word of advice for the folks worried about CDF Food Service Technicians and their recruitment… they need to get a Food Service Technician Union that concentrates on safety before better pay and benefits. In-N-Out burger seems to be a strong competitor that is stealing their best employees and possibly is providing unqualified Fire Captain candidates. (Tongue in firmly in cheek). Maybe safety, pay, benefits, etc. all come into the equation when it comes to recruitment and retention of quality employees.
9/21 state rappellers reply

North Carolina dept. of forestry has/ or had a military-style fast rope
program for its convict crew helitack for IA in the more mountainous areas
of the state.

Don.
9/21 Just a note of possible interest. The California Firefighters Memorial will have their ceremony on Oct. 15, 2005 on the East side of Capitol Park, Sacramento. There will be 11 wildland firefighters names put on it this year. They include:

2005
John Greeno USFS
Paul Cockrell USFS
Thomas Lynch USFS
Brian Bruns USFS
Chris Kanton CDF
Andy Towner CDF
2004
Daniel Holmes NPS
2003
Kenneth Moiseve LACo
Phillip Gibbs LACo
2002
Steven Wass USFS
Michael Davis USFS

Just wanted to pass this along in case anyone wanted to be there. It starts at 11:30. If anyone comes, please look for me. I would love to meet some of you and find out who is lurking behind those pseudonyms.....

Lori Greeno
9/21 Here is another very important bill that is in Congress that all of us should consider calling our elected representatives about. It has two versions, one in the House and one in the Senate. This bill makes the government responsible to prove a rare or debilitating illness is NOT work related rather than the responsibility of a federal firefighter or his or her family to prove that it IS.

Fact Sheet: www.iaff.org/politics/us/content/0505fedpresumptivefactsheet.htm
Key Points: www.iaff.org/politics/us/content/0505fedpresumptivekeypoints.htm

"HR 697 amends the Federal Employee Compensation Act to create a rebuttable presumption that cardiovascular disease, certain cancers and infectious diseases are job-related for purposes of workers compensation and disability retirement."

There are other versions of similar bills out there in Congress, but the discussion about the hidden dangers of being a wildland firefighter must begin at sometime.

Lobotomy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Federal Firefighters Fairness Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)

HR 697 IH
109th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 697

To amend title 5, United States Code, to create a presumption that disability of a Federal employee in fire protection activities caused by certain conditions is presumed to result from the performance of such employee's duty.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
February 9, 2005

Mrs. JO ANN DAVIS of Virginia (for herself and Mrs. CAPPS) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce

A BILL
To amend title 5, United States Code, to create a presumption that disability of a Federal employee in fire protection activities caused by certain conditions is presumed to result from the performance of such employee's duty.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Federal Firefighters Fairness Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. CERTAIN DISEASES PRESUMED TO BE WORK-RELATED CAUSE OF DISABILITY OR DEATH FOR FEDERAL EMPLOYEES IN FIRE PROTECTION ACTIVITIES.

(a) In General- Section 8102 of title 5, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:

`(c)(1) With regard to an employee in fire protection activities, a disease specified in paragraph (2) shall be presumed to be proximately caused by the employment of such employee. The disability or death of an employee in fire protection activities due to such a disease shall be presumed to result from personal injury sustained while in the performance of such employee's duty. Such presumptions may be rebutted by a preponderance of the evidence.

(2) The diseases specified in this paragraph are the following:

`(A) Heart disease.

`(B) Lung disease.

`(C) The following cancers:
  1. Brain cancer.
  2. Cancer of the blood or lymphatic systems.
  3. Leukemia.
  4. Lymphoma (except Hodgkin's disease).
  5. Multiple myeloma.
  6. Bladder cancer.
  7. Kidney cancer.
  8. Prostate cancer.
  9. Testicular cancer.
  10. Cancer of the digestive system.
  11. Colon cancer.
  12. Liver cancer.
  13. Skin cancer.
  14. Breast cancer.
  15. Lung cancer.

`(D) The following infectious diseases:

  1. Tuberculosis.
  2. Hepatitis A, B, or C.
  3. Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).
  4. Diphtheria.
  5. Hemorrhagic fever.
  6. Meningococcal disease.
  7. Rabies.
  8. Any uncommon infectious disease the contraction of which the Secretary of Labor determines to be related to the hazards to which an employee in fire protection activities may be subject.

`(3) The term `employee in fire protection activities' means an employee, including a firefighter, paramedic, emergency medical technician, rescue worker, ambulance personnel, or hazardous materials worker, who--

`(A) is trained in fire suppression, has the legal authority and responsibility to engage in fire suppression; and

`(B) is engaged in the prevention, control, and extinguishment of fires or response to emergency situations where life, property, or the environment is at risk.'.

(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by this section applies to an injury that is first diagnosed, or a death that occurs, on or after the date of enactment of this Act.
9/21 JP, A few contractors are involved in the Katrina arena- showers, caterers, grey water and supply truckers. If you read thru the National Response Plan you'll note that there is only one sentence in the whole plan addressing contractors. The Gov't. feels that they have no responsibility to order and dispatch the private sector- most GACCs are busy trying to get their own folks on the Relief effort (to help cover the cost of the Gov't. employee's salary). Alot of the GACCs feel they have had no directive to help put the private sector to work and thus, won't. I agree with you that the private sector is a huge resource, but let's face it, the private sector is considered the ugly stepchild and they (the state and federal dispatch centers) have no desire to put the privates to work. The dispatch offices still consider the private companies as competition. Most dispatch centers won't even help you volunteer for disaster work. The FEM A net page is a joke- there is no real info for the private sector. Calling the various IM Teams won't get you anywhere- they usually just file your faxed info in the circular file. It's too bad that closed minds keep this valuable resource down and out. Write your elected officials and call the news agencies, tell your friends, spread the word that thousands of available resources are not being utilized. If you belong to an Association, see if they can help get you noticed, you are paying dues and some salaries. Exagent
9/20 RE: Young & Dumb in Region One

I am not sure on any other state agency, but I do know, that Washington
State DNR does not have any type of rappel program, within their helitack
crews.

Kris
9/20 Abs and All,

With regards to Rita, all area Chiefs in our part of east TX are already planning and
have to attend MANDATORY EOC Conference Thursday nite. We have been told
that 8 USAR teams and 3 DMED teams are being predeployed into Dallas-Fort Worth
beginning tomorrow. It appears that she will be a doozy.

Stay Safe,
Keith
9/20 ALL RISK Breaking News on Hurricane Katrina relief in New Orleans and Hurricane Rita preparation in Texas and Louisiana:

All Texas resources working on Katrina relief are being recalled by the Texas governor Perry. Hurricane Rita is expected to be a category 4 hurricane by 1400 EDT tomorrow (131-155 mph sustained winds; storm surge 13-18 feet). It is expected to make landfall late Friday evening to early Saturday morning, someplace along the Gulf coast of Texas, possibly between Galveston and Matagorda Island or, slightly less likely, in western Louisiana.

A briefing by the New Orleans Mayor Nagin, LA Governor Blanco, General Honore, and Vice Admiral Allen is being held in New Orleans now. Extensive plans are being made to evacuate citizens and to house first responders. Among other things, a field hospital is being set up in New Orleans in case the hurricane impacts that city.

Ab.
9/20 This is being disseminated...

In working with the Interagency Operations Steering Committee on the
re-write for the 2006 310-1 revision the Interagency Helicopter Operations
Steering Committee is supporting the attached proposal to combine HCWN and
HELB back into one position. What would result is having only one position
code for Helicopter Manager. Please share this with your Aviation Managers
and Helicopter folks, we are looking for a short turn around on feedback
for this idea. Please respond back to me no later than 09/30, call if you
have any questions......brad (gibbs)

IOS Briefing 2005
9/20 Hello. Here are some photos from this season that I took while working for the Fort Howes Helitack crew.

MainCrew2small is the 2005 Fort Howes Helitack crew at the Fort Howes Helibase.

2BHElk1 is helicopter 2BH, a Bell 206L3, with bucket on the Elk Creek fire, Custer NF 2005.

73HSup1 and 73HSup2 are both helicopter 73H, a Bell 205++, on the I-90 Complex, Superior helibase, Lolo NF 2005.

790Drop4 is helitanker 790 on the I-90 Complex, Lolo NF 2005.

MirrorMirror is helicopter 66HJ, the Missoula National Helitack ship, on the I-90 Complex, Lolo NF 2005.

Border5 is helicopter 2BH on the Border fire, Custer NF 2005

Thanks for all you guys do for the wildland community!

Justin

Thanks, Justin. I put them on Helicopters 20 photo page. Ab.
9/20 Ab,

Here are few AirTanker shots from the Ramona AAB, during the Volcan Fire
and some helicopter photos from the CAMVU-7518.

Ron S.

Thanks Ron. I put them on AirTankers 20 and Helicopters 20 photo pages. Ab.
9/20 Hello,

Find enclosed some of my personal pic of my country from France south.

Zag

Thanks Zag. I put them on AirTankers 19 and AirTankers 20 photo pages. Ab.
9/20 For posting: This bit of creative writing was found abandoned on a scrap of paper found at a demobed spike camp on the "Long Ruggles" fire in Idaho, August 2005. Hope you enjoy it as much as we did…

Firefighter Pride

It breaks my heart
To watch it burn
I fight my best
And try to learn
With tool in hand
I hold it back
To save the green
From turning black
The trees they cry
And moan in pain
Across the hills
To blackened stain
The choppers roar
And planes soar past
Still the flames
Come so fast
Burning all
Within its path
There’s no escaping
The fires wrath
Smoke fills the air
Soot on my face
It feels like hell
Out in this place
My brothers fight
Right by my side
I’m a firefighter
And I fight with pride

“Smiley”
ICIO Red Hotz Crew

Found & Submitted (no claim to authorship) by:
Mark A. Smith
Fire & Aviation Technician
Craig Mountain PFD
Idaho Dept. of Lands
9/20 JP,

I talked to someone out in Baton Rouge yesterday to see what was going on.
They stated that besides the fact they have no place to put anyone- "there
is a lack of floor to sleep on"- FEMA is also focusing on hiring the
displaced people for any jobs they would be qualified for. They have
hundreds of thousands of people that need jobs and they are trying to
triage what job skills they can employ from the locals and displaced.
Patience is the name of the game- they are going from recovery to
evacuation again so more people in the area isn't a help just yet.

These people have lost everything and part of the rebuilding process will
be letting them help put their region back together and getting them
employed.

Wishing I was out there too,
BLMgirl
9/20 Anyone know where the IMTs and Military in Louisiana will be sleeping if Rita's wrath and rain come in like alligators snapping? The New Orleans wildlanders were sleeping in the heat and humidity and DARK and SILENCE in tents near Jackson Square. Our military were in NOISY air conditioned big white tents on the tarmac at the airport. Wind and rain will carry all those tents away even if old ma nature doesn't launch that hurricane right at the city.

Evangeline, take care girl.

Robey
9/20 The report from Rounsaville's Area Command Team investigation into radios is now on the web.

www.nifc.gov/nicc/administrative/nmac/radio_com/radio_rpt.html

Interesting.........

Radio Guy
9/20 Hello,

Why are private wildland fire fighters not being used in the clean up of Katrina disaster?
They are willing and able men and women out there who would like to be hired.
What steps are required for first responders in the private arena to get hired here?

Thank
JP
9/20 Hi Abs and everyone else,

Does anyone know if any state agencies (CDF, ODF, WA DNR, IDL, etc) have helitack
crews that are running rappel operations for fire? I'm just curious to know if any non-federal
agencies are rappelling, have rappelled, or are looking at rappelling in the future.

Young & Dumb in Region One
9/20 HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa to Fire Babe!

Thanks to -thinkingtoomuch in theoryville. Lots to sort through and digest on that bigMAC one.

Mellie
9/19 Ab wants to mention that this email is posted all in good fun. ...tongue firmly in cheek...

Fish asked, "So what would be the five major components that make up a Ray Quint?"

A Ray Quint:
We don't know about his pump or his hose, but it looks like his water tank capabilities have shrunk because he's been working out... (see photograph below). He has a lot of ground ladders and strong aerial support. He has all he needs... Oh, no bucket there! He's also quite flexible with his pieces of apparatus. You hear about the wildland firefighter's toolbox; a Ray Quint (supported by his crew) is the toolbox.

Here's a good picture of this not-so-typical Ray Quint with the wildland firefighter statue. (The Ray Quint is the one not in bronze.)
Please note: This Quint is not so well known in the structure world, but very much appreciated in the wildland fire world. Some structure quints have been criticized in that they're a compromise. Unlike those, there is no compromise here!

Fire Babe
9/19 Ab –

Interesting article: "DHS Inspector General Initiates Special Office for Hurricane Katrina Oversight" at:

www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?content=4827.

Also, the National Response Plan (NRP) is located at for those looking for some light reading: