Welcome Tizzy. Ab.

New Organizational Chart
Fact sheet

After thorough review of the Forest Service EUSC Help
Center, or as most everyone that I know calls it
"U-SUCK", I propose we do the same with our dispatch
centers. We'll contract out under EUSC. Employees in
the field, lookouts, other agencies, private parties
and office Personnel (Chiefs) will need to get a ticket
from EUSC. EUSC will prioritize all calls and forward
on to dispatch the calls they cannot take care of. The
dispatch centers will need to followup on the calls
within 24hrs, unless it's a weekend (good-luck then).
Of course the priority calls dispatch will need to
respond to within 2 hours. Overtime guaranteed. Have a
safe winter for those no longer fighting fire.

Sign me,
Another layer of government

"On November 1, 1966, a U.S. Forest Service firefighting crew was trapped by flames in the Loop Fire. The El Cariso Hot Shots were constructing a fireline downhill into a chimney canyon and were within 200 feet of completing their assignment when a sudden shift of winds caused a spot fire directly below where the crew was working. Within seconds, flames raced uphill, engulfing the firefighters. The fire flashed through the canyon in less than 1 minute trapping many in the crew. Ten members of the El Cariso Hot Shots perished on the Loop Fire that day and another two died in the following days. Many of those who survived, were critically burned and remained hospitalized for some time."

Our Wildland Fire Event Calendar, which can be accessed from our home page at www.iawfonline.org, has the anniversary dates of many (but not all) famous and infamous multiple fatality fires over the last 150 years. It also includes a short description and a link to more information when available. As far as I know, it is the only listing of multiple fatality fires by anniversary date. It can be sorted to show only the historical events by clicking on the "Categories" drop-down list in the upper right-hand corner.

By reviewing, and not forgetting, these fires, it just might prevent a similar disaster. On the anniversary dates, these fire situations could be discussed at safety meetings or could be topics for Six Minutes for Safety.

We are planning a staff ride of the Loop Fire as an optional part of the 9th Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Pasadena, CA, April 25-27, 2006... probably on the day following, on April 28.

We just started something that could be fun and interesting. Members of the wildland fire community can now plot their location on a map, upload a photo (of themselves, a fire, an engine, or crew), and include a short message. Using Google maps and a new service called Frapper!, you can see where other wildland fire professionals and enthusiasts are located. It only maps your city, not your specific address, in order to protect your privacy. This is open to anyone with a significant interest in wildland fire, not just IAWF members. You can access it from our home page (look in the "IAWF News" section), or you can go to it directly at: www.frappr.com/internationalassociationofwildlandfire.

Bill Gabbert
Executive Director
International Association of Wildland Fire

NorCal Tom

I pass this along so that others can learn that we still have a ways to go in meeting the goals of FIRESCOPE back in the 1970s.

• Communications between the primary agencies involved in fighting this fire was almost non-existent at the field level.
• Command was Unified, but Operations were being carried out separately to a large extent by each agency. It should be a watch out when you have more than one Operations on a fire. Four is too many OPs. Especially when the result is separate briefings and plans being followed even after a IMT is in place. Also, ground units could not talk to helicopters for various reasons, which caused repeated drops on a house that had firefighters on the roof and inside, pushing fire on them.
• Some agencies pulled out of assignments prior to finishing them and others had little wildland experience or training to draw on. Knowing this up front allows proper placement of folks so that they stay in their safety and comfort zones when possible.
• Law folks had uncoordinated evacuations and failed road closures that hindered fire operations.
• Some agencies took credit for things they had nothing to do with.
• Well meaning horse loving folks hindered fire equipment by blocking roads, endangered each other by their methods and injured animals as well.

I know this sounds like a laundry list of whines, but there were good things too.

• The initial structure protection saved houses with good efforts.
• Many other houses were saved due to good weed abatement since there weren't enough engines to cover even a fraction of the houses exposed in the initial hours of the fire. The houses that were lost had no engines available to save them.
• The placement of resources to pace the head of the fire and place resources worked well after it passed through the first neighborhoods.
• The fire did not push the Hwy 101 corridor, which also helped a lot as it kept up in the hills the first night.

On the whole this turned out well, but all the elements that could lead to a serious problem were there and are still there today as the wind gets ready to blow again.

Please sign this
"A Ranger in CA"

On 10/26 you said "Any Captain that would put his engine at the top of a chimney, fail to notice that the main fire had arrived at his location from the predicted direction, fail to notice that a firing operation (with helicopter drops and burning for 35 minutes) had occurred only a few hundred feet away and ordered his crew to abandon the safest place to ride out the passing fire front probably should face some kind of adverse action."

Adverse action is not the goal of people who want to improve safety... lessons learned and understood are. It is such an awesome thing to see family members from these accidents lend their personal experiences to the discussion. We should never discount their opinions and recommendations for safety from an outside viewpoint. They have the same goal as most of us.... to make wildland firefighting safer.

Three observations:

1) There is usually never just one mistake that causes a burnover incident. I would hope we all know that. The Swiss Cheese Model has been proven time and time again to be an accurate model of why accidents happen. When someone thinks there is just one person or a certain small group of people contributing to the accident, they will surely be shown to be wrong when the causal and contributing factors are made public. Sometimes, an Agency (all Agencies) remove the things that could hurt a policy, a person, or an Agency through redactions or editing prior to release. This is a fact of life in our times when people worry more about litigation than keeping their fellow firefighters safe.

The Forest Service (at least the fire folks and some key non-fire managers) is undergoing a doctrinal review/change process that is focusing on six key fundamental areas to improve safety and efficiency. It took alot of hurt feelings, beating up on policies, people holding back punches when they wanted to swing, and occasionally pointing fingers at the opinions of key people above them to at least get the possibility of change upon the table. These changes came from the lessons learned from many tragic fires of the past and the things that happened during the Cedar, Old, and Grand Prix fires of 2003. They seeds of change happened from the events of the South Canyon, Thirty Mile, Cramer Fires and all of the other fatality fires from the last twenty years.

2) The main predicted direction of spread was up the San Diego River Drainage with a normal upslope flanking run towards the accident site that was roughly 45 degrees off from the San Diego River Canyon. The upslope flanking movement appears, to many experienced and educated people, to have been influenced negatively by the multiple ignitions around structures upslope of, and out of alignment from the head that was moving up the San Diego River Drainage. Don't forget, there was alot of fire that was set upslope around numerous structures (simple fire dynamics). This may have been a good tactic to "fire and get the hell out of the way and let God sort them out" if it hadn't been the fact that most of the structures were being protected by fire engines not overly familiar with the local drought, fuel conditions, and fire behavior. A simple communication that said, "Hey, these structures are un-defendable, you need to leave and I'll tell the Division Supervisor I am making a last ditch effort to save them by firing out around them" may have been a simple plug to a hole in the Swiss Cheese Model.

3) The use of a vehicle as a refuge is something you may want to investigate more. As a last resort refuge, the house was a far better choice. There are lots of variables, but residual burnout time for the fuels is extended in the house rather than in the vehicle. (It takes longer to make a house untenable than a vehicle that has a fiberglass hood, rubber door sealing, rubber tires, and glass that is prone to cracking and letting in direct flames and gases. It might be OK as a last resort to ride out the burnover in a grass fire, but in chaparral and timber (with long residual burnout times), it's a very bad choice.

See the Crank Fire Video (no link available) and Surviving Fire Entrapments: Comparing Conditions Inside Vehicles and Fire Shelters: www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/htmlpubs/htm97512817/index.htm

The Aussies also have some good info on using the structure before a vehicle as a refuge.

Lobotomy

Jim R

If anyone wants this, email me and I'll send it. Ab.

Policy Interpretation of the Supplemental Qualification Standard for the GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist This is to be used in conjunction with the GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist Standard.

Basic Requirements:
A. Education: Successful completion of a full 4-year course of study in an accredited college or university leading to a bachelor’s or higher degree in biological sciences, agriculture, natural resource management, or related discipline appropriate to the position being filled. The following majors are creditable:
1. Disciplines identified in the 400 Professional and Scientific Series Standard for General Biological Science/Natural Sciences:

Agriculture - Agricultural Extension - Agronomy - Animal Science - Biochemistry - Biological Sciences (General) - Biometrics (includes Applied Forestry*) – Botany Ecology – Entomology - Fishery Biology (includes marine/aquatic) Forestry -General Fish & Wildlife - Administration Genetics – Horticulture - Microbiology - Natural Resources - Management Pharmacology - Physiology - Plant Pathology
Plant Physiology - Plant Protection & Quarantine - Rangeland Management - Soil Conservation - Soil Science – Toxicology = Wildlife - Biology Wildlife Refuge Management - Zoology

2. Natural Resource related disciplines as determined by Fire Management subject matter experts to meet the Natural Science Group GS-400

Chemistry - Earth Sciences - Environmental Sciences** - Geology – Hydrology –Meteorology - Outdoor Recreation*** - Physical Geography* - Physics - Watershed Management - Fire Management/Fire Science

Send in any questions. I'll answer or research it. I'm pretty busy today but I'll be back at that tomorrow.

Thanks for your input Ab.

Mellie

Avian Flu / Pandemic Influenza
Key Messages

No one really knows when or if the avian flu will become a pandemic.
• Pandemic diseases have occurred periodically throughout human history.
• We can study the past for lessons learned on how to prevent or respond to a pandemic.
• We have the advantage of being able to plan for a possible avian flu pandemic.

In the years since past pandemics, public health officials have greatly improved our ability to detect and control infectious diseases.
• We have become more vigilant in our surveillance.
• We will recognize a new strain more quickly when it emerges.
• We will be able to take precautions to reduce the impact of a new influenza virus strain.

Public health officials worldwide have been preparing for a pandemic flu for several years.
• LPHAs will utilize many of the same responses they use on a daily basis to control the spread of disease.
• The focus on planning for bioterrorism attacks has strengthened LPHAs’ response plans for all public health emergencies.
• LPHAs’ local plans will be strengthened with guidance and support from state and federal levels.

No one knows for sure how serious or deadly a worldwide avian flu outbreak would be.
• Scientists and government believe it could pose a serious threat to public health.
• Some estimates place the number of deaths as high as 360 million people.
• Avian flu should be taken seriously and planned for.

The general public can take steps today to prepare themselves and their families for an avian flu pandemic.
• Become more diligent about good hygiene.
o Hand washing
o Respiratory etiquette
o Avoid touching your face
• Improve your overall health.
o Quit smoking
o Improve eating habits
o Exercise more
o Get immunizations
• Listen for information.

The CDC has a robust system for national influenza surveillance.
• Collaborating laboratories of the World Health Organization (WHO) and the National Respiratory and Enteric Virus Surveillance System (NREVSS) report the number, types, and subtypes of influenza viruses detected.
• Approximately 2,250 sentinel health-care providers report patient visits for influenza-like illness (ILI), and approximately 500 of these providers continue regular reporting throughout the summer. (Missouri DHSS has approximately 30 sentinel sites.)
• 122 U.S. cities report weekly mortality attributed to influenza and pneumonia.
• A national surveillance system records pediatric deaths associated with laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Health experts expect the next pandemic to be caused by a new subtype of influenza A.
• The new subtype will most likely emerge in the Far East due to the mingling of human and animal influenza viruses there.
• Vaccine for the novel influenza virus causing the pandemic is not expected to be generally available in Missouri before the virus reaches the state.
• Initial distribution of vaccine to Missouri will be extremely limited and must be prioritized to maximize effectiveness.

An outbreak of avian flu (H5N1) has been reported in several countries throughout Asia, and recently in Europe.
• Human infections have been reported in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and Indonesia.
• Humans have been infected by close contact with their domestic fowl.
• Rare instances of limited human-to-human transmission of avian flu have occurred.

Rare instances of limited human-to-human transmission of avian flu have occurred.
• These cases have occurred in association with outbreaks in poultry and should not be cause for alarm.
• In no instance has the virus spread beyond a first generation of close contacts or caused illness in the general community.
• To date, human infections with avian influenza A viruses detected since 1997 have not resulted in sustained human-to-human transmission.

(excerpts) "A nation unprepared… We are all gonna die… Who do you like?... The yankies or the red sox… Sensibly tuned between panic and indifference…. The national mood needs to be calibrated that is somewhere between indifference and panic. 5 % of the world population would die."

This is important legislation just as are many pieces of legislation that come before the Congress.... some have immediate needs and some have preparedness needs....

Thanks for the links Mellie... it is always good to be prepared for a potential looming catastrophe. Avian flu is something that at least a few upper level managers of federal land management agencies have been discussing seriously and starting the preparations for... ie - a "camp crud".... except this time it could be a potential fatal camp crud. An unseen or or recognized hazard to the wildland fire community that has national significance.

Gizmo

Also, I got this message from a friend; seemed applicable to the topic of expectations in emergencies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fema who?

This Weather Bulletin came from the Emergency Manager of Eddy County in North Dakota concerning the winter storms that hit North Dakota on the 4th and 5th of October 2005. I thought it was a little funny. Maybe because it has a lot of truth in its description.

WEATHER BULLETIN

Up here in the Northern Plains we just recovered from a Historic --- may I even say a "Weather Event" of "Biblical Proportions" with a historic blizzard of up to 24 inches of snow and winds up to 50 MPH that broke trees in half, stranded hundreds of motorist in lethal snow banks, closed all roads, isolated scores of communities and cut power to 10's of thousands.

George Bush did not come .... FEMA staged nothing ..... no one howled for the government ..... no one even uttered an expletive on TV ..... nobody demanded $2,000 debit cards .... no one asked for a FEMA trailer house ..... no news anchors moved in.

We just melted snow for water, sent out caravans to pluck people out of snow engulfed cars, fired up wood stoves, broke out coal oil lanterns or Aladdin lamps and put on an extra layer of clothes.

Even though a Category "5" blizzard of this scale has never fallen this early ... we know it can happen and how to deal with it ourselves.

Everybody is fine.

Ab added the underlines. Basically your home Agency will be paying.

Nerd, so your nerd-ishness is limited?

<sly smile> Just trolling a little and knowing you wouldn't be offended.
(Actually, I have given some thought to a meteorite too, but I don't think
Congress would fund the "getting ready" process.)

I have found it interesting in the aftermath of Wilma that some people are
surprised and angry that they aren't being rescued by FEMA or *someone*
as fast as they expect to be...

Mellie

Bravo to both of you; to Bob Rucker, my deepest sympathies, both for your loss and for your fight to start a discussion that some apparently don't want to see come out in open. During the discussion of the Cramer fire fatalities, an extended conversation took place over the degree of personal responsibility an IC should take. I don't want to open an old can of worms here, but I see this discussion as coming back in somewhat the same direction. At what point to fireline decisions become indefensible? There's a spectrum from perfect safety through reasonable risk to reckless disregard and beyond. That's what our training and SOPs are for...to define what a reasonable person with the same training, the same information, and the same resources would/should do in a given situation. Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I realize that the command situation, and the command decision processes, are very complex. At the same time, where that reasonable man standard is violated, questions need to be asked. Bob, I believe you are asking them. As far as backfiring ceasing to be a viable tool, I don't see that happening; as far as maybe reconsidering how resources on an incident should be informed of and respond to backfiring, maybe that needs to get looked at.

Butterfly;

I've got a good bit of experience with writing grants for FEMA and DHS money, and there is definitely money out there; there are also grants available via BLM and the USFS. The problem is that in order to get money, you have to know exactly what you're asking for, and what effect it will have on your response capability. I've found that's the hardest hurdle to cross with a VFD. I think it was one of the French philosophers (or it might have been Marx) who said "The people will never fight for freedoms they have never known". How do you persuade people to write grants for tools they've never had and training they've never heard of instead of tools they've used over and over again, like bunker gear and structure trucks?

Mellie;

Why on earth would you think of me in conjunction with a two-hour virology lecture? Is this the point when I confess that my first response was "Oh, cool!"? Any research you might do and pass on to the collective would be greatly appreciated. All-risk is getting broader, isn't it? I figure the way things are going, somebody on the site will be responding to a meteorite impact before too long.

Nerd on the Fireline

Ab.

An audio version of the Nightline program (9/30/0, ABC) worth listening to.
Nightline Program on Pandemic Flu (mp3 audio): About 35-40 min. Ted Koppel interviews Senator Frist (who's a physician), Senator Reed, Michael Osterholm (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy) and others. Excellent introduction.

Audio & Photomontage on the Next Killer Flu (relatively short piece) from the October 2005 issue of the National Geographic

PBS Wideangle: Avian Influenza (Sep 2005), including an interactive map, photo essay, filmmaker’s notes and an online trailer. (It's gotten much more complicated than the PBS story in the last month... Bird Migration Routes and October Bird Pandemic Map).

For Nerd on the Fireline and others who might like to sit through an hour-long lecture on the biology, virology, sociology of the H5N1 virus and the beginnings of the emerging pandemic in Southeast Asia. It's 2 hrs. The first hour by Dr. Suarez (SE Poultry Research Station, US Dept of Agriculture) is excellent science info.
Pandemic Influenza - Alabama Public Health Training Network, 2004. (Uses Realplayer.)

I have more audio-visual links and links to websites where you can read up, ask questions and get answers. I have suggestions for how we can prepare for our families. I'm willing to do the research. Just say the word and I will share. Preparation is what it's all about. Timing may be everything. We will have the equivalent of Katrinas and Wilmas in many cities and communities around the US and the world one day soon. That will not be the time to ask each other what we should do. We should and can be ready.

Mellie -
Old Chinese blessing: "May you live in interesting times."

We can make another page if need be. Ab.

It astounds me as to the efforts that are made to defend the indefensible actions of the CDF FC on Orchard Lane. I look at the postings on this site and it seems that those that want to rationalize the approach that nothing is broke, therefore we don't need to change outnumber saner views like those expressed by "Lobotomy".

"CDF Captain" throws out accusations of motivation for the purposes of a lawsuit. I find these comments entirely offensive and so far from the truth that they barely warrant the dignity of a response. Could the motivation be something as simple as learning from a tragedy and implementing changes to do everything possible to prevent a future occurrence?

As a Californian, I have tremendous respect for all firefighters. I know that Steve Rucker was proud of his 2 seasons that he served with CDF where his first wildland fire was the Lexington Reservoir fire in 1985. It is a shame that CDF members are viewing this as an attack on their organization. I think the challenge to the organization is to learn from this event and implement positive changes to reduce risks to all firefighters.

Whenever an airplane crashes, investigators determine the causes that resulted in the event. These investigations result in binding procedural changes to minimize the chance for a recurrence. This seems like a rational approach and I think anyone who travels by air expects and values this approach. Could you imagine the outcry if the airlines tried to defend against making any changes the way we are seeing with some of the postings on this site?

I realize that firing is a necessary tool for wildland firefighting. At the same time, this tool caries risks and I have a tough time comprehending why so many are opposed to any types of safety standards. God forbid that the lessons of the Cedar Fire are ignored and a similar event occurs again. It was a miracle that all 4 of the Novato firefighters were not lost that day.

I would also challenge everyone to really look at the reports objectively. The Niosh report clearly states that Asthma was not a factor. If "CDF Captain" were to objectively read this report he would understand that. Steve was incapacitated by carbon monoxide for causes outlined in the Niosh report - none that had anything to do with Asthma.

The comments that the Novato truck has safety issues that prevented it from being used as a shelter also show that the report was not comprehended properly. Novato saw that the stock brake lines had almost melted through so they decided to retrofit all engines with braided stainless steel lines. I hardly think that had any impact of the engine being used as a refuge.

It is easy to look back with the clarity of hindsight and say what should have been done differently that day. Everyone can now speculate that the engine might have provided safe refuge but I can understand why the Novato crew elected not to do so with flames cutting off the escape route to the front of the engine. Whether or not this was a position that should have been defended is also a matter of speculation. I think that debate concerning the topography, weather conditions and any other factors are something that everyone should apply to how they might approach a similar situation in the future.

One thing that is not open to debate is whether the firing operations that occurred that day were done in a proper manner. A rouge FC engaged in these firing activities with no authorization from the IC and no communication to the firefighters in the area. This is fact and stated as such in the CDF report. The CDF report dances around the issue as what impact the firing operation had on the Novato crew. I was at the site shortly after the event and it's a toss up as to whether it was the backfire or main fire that reached the fatality site first. It was very clear that the 2 separate fires merged together. In any event, the CDF report does go so far as to estimate that the firing operation resulted in the Novato crew losing at least 90 seconds of response time.

Given these facts, I find it odd that anyone is opposed to having standards to insure that firing operations are conducted in a safe manner. I do not think anyone disputes the importance of this tool but it's a tool that needs to be used properly to insure lives are not jeopardized in the process.

As we approach the 2-year anniversary of Steve Rucker's death, I would ask that everyone look objectively at this event. Steve would want everyone to learn from this so that nobody else suffers a similar fate.

Bob Rucker (Steve Rucker's brother)

With all due respect to this wonderful women, while her husband was involved in a terrible accident, it in no way even is comparable to the causal factors she cites in Tuolumne Fire. Both tragedies are so different, to connect them both simply as the result of a “backfire” is incorrect. Mrs Rucker, I feel for you and you have every right to be very angry at the department and individuals involved, but please do no tie the hands of thousands of other firefighters with another “safety mandate” before engaging in a tactic. Much of what we do on the fireline is a combination of timing, science, experience, and art. Don’t take that away.

In reading the report on the Cedar and talking to those there afterward, it is fairly straight forward some of the omissions and acts that occurred. Some you cite, some you do not.

My thoughts are with you and I’m sorry for your loss.

“Another CDF BC”

Any Captain that would put his engine at the top of a chimney, fail to notice that the main fire had arrived at his location from the predicted direction, fail to notice that a firing operation (with helicopter drops and burning for 35 minutes) had occurred only a few hundred feet away and ordered his crew to abandon the safest place to ride out the passing fire front probably should face some kind of adverse action.

Then of course there is his Strike Team Leader that did know about the firing operations and didn’t tell anybody. Or possibly the Division Supervisor that bought off on “some of the CDF FC’s ideas” and apparently authorized firing operations outside the direct line construction he ordered, then leaves the only uncontained portion of his division and heads into Julian.

Of course on the CDF side we have a guy that pretended to have authority on a fire he wasn’t even assigned to and starts a completely uncoordinated firing operation in the middle of a bunch of houses and people.

Am I saying any of this mitigates the CDF FC’s guilt? No, of course not and he should be punished if for no other reason than to discourage others in the future. But he should be accused of and punished for what he did wrong, a rogue firing operation.

CDF said he didn’t kill anyone. The Novato presentation opens by stating that CDF employees did not cause the death. The closest thing they make to any accusation is to say the Rucker might have been disoriented by breathing super heated gases from the firing operation, and they don’t offer any proof of that.

There was a lot of bad judgment that absolutely contributed to the eventual outcome on Orchard Ln. that day.

Fire Away...

Try giving Rusty a call. If he's not off dancing with Wilma he might be working with Gary. There's a design plan afoot to determine what's offered based on who-needs-what to progress in their quals so we have the right number of people moving on up to fill the positions on the forests. "Sizing the pipe to carry the flow required to meet the needs of the forests." Pretty sweet from what I've seen. Ab.

It's interesting how easy comments on the internet can be misinterpreted. I wouldnt
have realized cris was female if she hadn't said pregnant. I had assumed "guy"...

She apparently took something askew that ncbrush6 or copter100 said. As a friend
says... this internet communication, funny stuff. I think there was misinterpretation??

Tahoe Terrie

Read the post above. Ab.

So that you will have a more complete idea, these points are the ones I mentioned at the CA Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board meeting on October 20, 2005:

First of all, I held up Steve's photo and told the Board members that he had dedicated his life to public safety. I said that, as an EMT student at Santa Rosa JC, I was beginning to understand that perspective.

I quoted from their "Division Evaluation" of my petition where it is stated that "it would be a considerable challenge to develop specific, mandatory standards for firing out operations that would assure optimal safety in all situations, without impairing the flexibility to respond to sudden, dramatic, unanticipated changes in fire behavior". I then mentioned the 9 suggested safety standards in the NIOSH report. I asked the Board if they would like for me to read them to them. Several of them nodded their heads, and so I read all nine of them aloud. Here is the link to the NIOSH report: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200336.html

Next I quoted the part of their evaluation that stated "several organizations such as the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) and the International Fire Service Training Association have developed safe practices for firing out operations. Although not carrying the same legal mandate as California Title 8 standards, such standards are readily recognized and implemented throughout the fire service profession." I held up a copy of the NWCG Fireline Handbook. I turned to page 48 of Chapter 5, Firefighting Safety. There is a small section on Firing Equipment. I told the Board that the sections talks about fueling your equipment, making sure that you are grounded, and I quoted that it says "maintain constant radio communications between the firing operations and other appropriate fireline personnel". Then I held up the Fireline Handbook and said, "This is a reference, these are not safety standards." I mentioned that IFSTA is in Oklahoma and that they write textbooks on every aspect of firefighting - but they do not write safety standards. I said that NFPA writes safety standards. (CDF - who helped the Board write their evaluation - should have known not to give me a load of $%&*@ like that. They obviously did not give me much credit at all.)

I reiterated that their evaluation concluded that this was a "training issue". At first I blurted out that "I do not agree". But then I caught myself. I then said that it is a training issue. I mentioned that one of the firefighters involved had 25 years of experience. Then I went on to talk about the lack of water supply and not being in radio communication. Then I thought to myself, "You're missing one and it's very important." And then it came to me. I also said that their firing operation was not authorized by the incident commander.

In closing I said something like, "You may think that this was a terrible accident and that it will not be repeated." And then I said, "Well, it already has. Eva Schicke lost her life in August 2004 and she was also involved in a backfiring accident."

Condolences. Ab.

Scientific American article: Preparing for a Pandemic

Self sufficiency...

Mellie

E

Nerd on the Fireline

Cris

JE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
USDA Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Briefing Paper
Date: October 2, 2005

Topic: Application of overtime regulations

Issue: Exempt employees who are at a pay rate greater than GS-10 step 1 responding to non-fire emergencies who are assigned to exempt positions do not receive full time and one half pay for overtime hours worked.

Background: Prior to January 2001, FLSA-exempt employees who worked in exempt positions when responding to wildland fires were subject to the overtime pay provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 which limited overtime pay to 1 ½ the basic pay rate up to the overtime pay rate of a GS-10 step 1. In 2000, Public Law 106-558 Firefighter Pay Reform Act amended 5 U.S.C 5542 (a) to allow full overtime to be paid to wildland firefighters of the Department of Interior and Forest Service beginning January 20, 2001. This authority applies only when wildland firefighters are engaged in wildland fire suppression activities.

Key Points:

Non-exempt employees: Overtime rate of 1 ½ the basic rate of pay is paid for all work over 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week irregardless of the work the employee is performing.

Exempt employees:

Ø Non fire suppression work: Overtime pay for employees who are not covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA-exempt) generally is earned for hours of work in excess of 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week. For employees with pay rates equal to or less than the pay rate of a GS-10 step 1 full time and ½ is received for overtime worked. For employees with pay rates greater than a GS-10 step 1, the overtime rate is the greater of a GS-10 step 1 pay rate x 1.5 or the employee's hourly rate of pay.

Ø Exempt employees assigned to non-exempt positions: Exempt employees who are assigned to non-fire emergency incidents and perform nonexempt work for more than 20% of their work hours in any weekly tour of duty are entitled to be paid under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 5 CFR 551.208 (d). (i.e. receive overtime at a rate of 1 ½ times their basic rate of pay).

Ø Wildland Fire Suppression assignments: Wildland firefighters who are exempt from the FLSA overtime pay provisions, and are employees of the Department of Interior or Forest Service receive an overtime pay rate of 1 ½ their basic rate of pay while they are engaged in fire suppression activities only.

Bi-weekly pay limitations: Bi-weekly pay limitations apply to all employees. This limitation is waived for employees responding to wildland fire suppression activities. It can also be waived by the Department for Presidential declared emergencies at which time employees are paid under the annual limitation not to exceed the rate for a GS -15 Step 10 or Level V of the Executive Schedule, whichever is greater. Annual pay limitations still apply. There is no provision in law for waiving any salary payment received by an employee that exceeds the annual maximum earning limit.
Contact: Mary Ann Szymoniak 208-387-5499 or Emmy Ibison 406-329-3463

• Fuel-veg type photos, representing the variety of fuel that we have in California.
• Cloud photos, representing the types of clouds that indicate important weather changes.
• Fire suppression activities, showing the kinds of work involved in suppression.
• Topographic features, showing the hinds of terrain and features that are dangerous
  (like chimneys) or helpful (like safety zones).

If you have good quality slides or prints that you'd like to donate, I can scan and return
them to you. Please mail them to:
Charly Price
Tahoe National Forest
631 Coyote Street
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 478-6211
cprice01@fs.fed.us

Fuel valve blamed in failure of air tanker's engine CA

Fall Burning Begins On Central Oregon Federal Lands OR

Lassen park lights Prospect Peak fire CA

First Responders worldwide should be aware of (from National Public Radio)
The Spread of Bird Flu
Q&A: What is Bird Flu and Who's At Risk? 10/20
Q&A: Preparing for a Flu Pandemic 10/21

I was not in any way trying to start a pi23ing match. i must have hit a nerve.. relax.
i have been in the the life for 25 years. i am also on a vfd. and yes i am the only one
redcarded. but soon there will be more.. the avg age here is 35. lol, cris take a chill
and relax...

ncbrush6

I am JC the grandson of Marry Brooks and my Grandma retired around 1998.
Her sister Lilly Robinson also worked for the forest service and retired a few
years earlier. Both of them started fighting fire and burning slash in the
early 70s, around 71 or 72 according to my father. John Chester Sr. still
works at Mad River and the torch has been passed down to both me and my
little sister... neither of us born when our grandma and great aunt started
putting out fire. Both of us work on the SHASTA-Trinity N.F.

Ab sign me As D.H.

Hi JC, chip off the old block, aren't you? Welcome. I'll add a note to the IMWTK tomorrow. Ab.

I relocated (retired!!) here to N.C. from California after having spent 35 years with CDF. The Fire Department personnel in my town and those surrounding me have no desire to learn ANY courses in ICS. The newer and younger personnel desperately want to learn these skills but are being stonewalled by outdated and inefficient Chief Officers that have been in place for many years. Monies are scarce and the training budgets are the hardest hit. Concepts and principles of Emergency Management are almost non-existent and most VFDs do not welcome change or outside input. Sad...but true!

COPTER100

You can go to the national firetraining web and search the
nation for courses. Go here.

http://nationalfiretraining.net/schedule/

Good Luck.

Training Officer

I just read the complaint about vfds not pack testing nor red carding their members. Well, try having the average age of vfd FF's being 45. Not alot of the guys around here have the time nor are in the shape to do the pack test. We do encourage them to take Basic Wildland, Intermediate and all other classes they wish to take. Our guys have jobs that 365 days a year and work anywhere from 12 to 18 hour days. Who are these busy men and women? They are farmers and ranchers. We do drop what we are doing to go to a fire because that means some one is losing their livihood for the year. It takes training and understanding to fight a fire not a red card nor pack test and just because you have one does not mean that you know more then the guy who doesn't, but has been fighting fire in that area for over 20 years. I may be trained clear up to S-230 and 231, but I still count on my guys who have been there before to let me know when there is a problem starting.We count on each other.

So lets not a pi--ing match between those who have red cards and those who do not, and each vfd has their own set of rules and training. If any of my guys want to go on a project fire I send them to another local vfd that does the pack tests and they test there, but I make sure they have their basic or refresher before they go.

By the way we are very rural.
Cris

I strongly support efforts which help in that regard such as the increased firefighter
pay scale for southern California. I know more needs to be done and am committed
to trying to do so.

Could someone in the RO answer why we are not allowed to update our figures with OPM
even after WO requested the information? This would really show your commitment to the
phrase "more needs to be done".

Signed,
3 bedrooms, 2 baths and "freeway close" for only $726,000 !!!!!!

Thanks, I added it to the fire terms page. Ab.

Here are directions on how to bring it up for everyone to enjoy and see that all the stewards of the range greatly appreciate wildland firefighters for doing what they do.

Go to the Range Magazine, you go to the most recent issue, Fall 2005. Notice that top right says "On the cover: firefighters Bob Elliot and Jason Matheson."

Scroll down the contents in "Current Features" and click Portrait of the West. You will find the article that I told you about awhile back. It's a 1 page pdf file (168K, not large).

Cris

Crs, thanks for working with me to figure out links and such. Ab.

This time it was smooth jazz. Age doesn't make any difference. 3 Mi 45 min. with 45 pounds on, no run, walk, or you fail. At least that is the way it is in our dept. Young 69, closing on 70. We got told just 2 weeks ago that we will be testing just as our cards expire.

Old Man of the Dept.

Keep on truckin'

Readers, if you don't know the Work Capacity Test (Pack Test) prerequisites and requirements and how they relate to federal employment, you can find them via the Links page under Safety. Age hasn't stopped many a firefighter. (...This is where the Old Man of the Department always chimes in... Imagine a little music in the background... maybe Roy Rogers, Dale Evans and the Sons of the Pioneers...) Ab.

There are lessons to be learned all around if we can avoid the personal or agency attacks. Ab.

I am a NON EXEMPT Forest Service Helitack
Captain GS-8. I was told I can't gross more $5,036
per pay period because I hit the bi-weekly salary cap.
I was also told that I could not code my time with
the "11" prefix for fire overtime because that is for
EXEMPT employees such as GS-9s and so on. So I have
lost a few thousand dollars and was told I worked
several hundred hours for free. Is this really the
case? It seems ridiculous to me. This came from my
HR person. I just want to know if this true and if
there is any recourse.

JD

Thanks Rhino. Ab.

Rarely do I post, but I just had to give a "chuck on the shoulder" to "into the wind" for their post on the absurdity of how we proportion our dollars/resources/efforts etc. between suppression and fuels treatments. Our current situation is a disservice to the american public and a true "fleecing of america". It does give me hope to read posts like that. Which IMT do you work for - sounds like they have their act together

Hats off though to the forests/districts/parks that are utilizing fire use and aggressive fuels treatments - there are definitely many, many more than ever before. I hope the trend continues. We should be rewarding these folks and figure out a way to provide incentive to continue and go bigger.

I used to work out west, but now reside in the countries most flammable state - Florida. Prescribed fire is our suppression tool here. I got fed up with chasing single-tree juniper fires in the middle of nowhere. I know we can do better. If we can burn hundreds of thousands of acres here in the 4th most populous state in the nation, with most residents not being from Florida, and urban interface issues on nearly every burn then certainly those forests and BLM districts miles from anywhere can do better than they are. It take one or two very dedicated, passionate managers to get the job done. I hope in the future more of them have the cohones to do what is right!

Thanks Ab for the forum - hopefully Hurricane Wilma will decide what she is gonna do and get on with it!

Firepup21

Novato Firefighter's Widow Urges New Safety Standards

SoCal CDF