Welcome Tizzy. Ab.

New Organizational Chart
Fact sheet

After thorough review of the Forest Service EUSC Help
Center, or as most everyone that I know calls it
"U-SUCK", I propose we do the same with our dispatch
centers. We'll contract out under EUSC. Employees in
the field, lookouts, other agencies, private parties
and office Personnel (Chiefs) will need to get a ticket
from EUSC. EUSC will prioritize all calls and forward
on to dispatch the calls they cannot take care of. The
dispatch centers will need to followup on the calls
within 24hrs, unless it's a weekend (good-luck then).
Of course the priority calls dispatch will need to
respond to within 2 hours. Overtime guaranteed. Have a
safe winter for those no longer fighting fire.

Sign me,
Another layer of government

"On November 1, 1966, a U.S. Forest Service firefighting crew was trapped by flames in the Loop Fire. The El Cariso Hot Shots were constructing a fireline downhill into a chimney canyon and were within 200 feet of completing their assignment when a sudden shift of winds caused a spot fire directly below where the crew was working. Within seconds, flames raced uphill, engulfing the firefighters. The fire flashed through the canyon in less than 1 minute trapping many in the crew. Ten members of the El Cariso Hot Shots perished on the Loop Fire that day and another two died in the following days. Many of those who survived, were critically burned and remained hospitalized for some time."

Our Wildland Fire Event Calendar, which can be accessed from our home page at www.iawfonline.org, has the anniversary dates of many (but not all) famous and infamous multiple fatality fires over the last 150 years. It also includes a short description and a link to more information when available. As far as I know, it is the only listing of multiple fatality fires by anniversary date. It can be sorted to show only the historical events by clicking on the "Categories" drop-down list in the upper right-hand corner.

By reviewing, and not forgetting, these fires, it just might prevent a similar disaster. On the anniversary dates, these fire situations could be discussed at safety meetings or could be topics for Six Minutes for Safety.

We are planning a staff ride of the Loop Fire as an optional part of the 9th Wildland Fire Safety Summit in Pasadena, CA, April 25-27, 2006... probably on the day following, on April 28.

We just started something that could be fun and interesting. Members of the wildland fire community can now plot their location on a map, upload a photo (of themselves, a fire, an engine, or crew), and include a short message. Using Google maps and a new service called Frapper!, you can see where other wildland fire professionals and enthusiasts are located. It only maps your city, not your specific address, in order to protect your privacy. This is open to anyone with a significant interest in wildland fire, not just IAWF members. You can access it from our home page (look in the "IAWF News" section), or you can go to it directly at: www.frappr.com/internationalassociationofwildlandfire.

Bill Gabbert
Executive Director
International Association of Wildland Fire

NorCal Tom

I pass this along so that others can learn that we still have a ways to go in meeting the goals of FIRESCOPE back in the 1970s.

• Communications between the primary agencies involved in fighting this fire was almost non-existent at the field level.
• Command was Unified, but Operations were being carried out separately to a large extent by each agency. It should be a watch out when you have more than one Operations on a fire. Four is too many OPs. Especially when the result is separate briefings and plans being followed even after a IMT is in place. Also, ground units could not talk to helicopters for various reasons, which caused repeated drops on a house that had firefighters on the roof and inside, pushing fire on them.
• Some agencies pulled out of assignments prior to finishing them and others had little wildland experience or training to draw on. Knowing this up front allows proper placement of folks so that they stay in their safety and comfort zones when possible.
• Law folks had uncoordinated evacuations and failed road closures that hindered fire operations.
• Some agencies took credit for things they had nothing to do with.
• Well meaning horse loving folks hindered fire equipment by blocking roads, endangered each other by their methods and injured animals as well.

I know this sounds like a laundry list of whines, but there were good things too.

• The initial structure protection saved houses with good efforts.
• Many other houses were saved due to good weed abatement since there weren't enough engines to cover even a fraction of the houses exposed in the initial hours of the fire. The houses that were lost had no engines available to save them.
• The placement of resources to pace the head of the fire and place resources worked well after it passed through the first neighborhoods.
• The fire did not push the Hwy 101 corridor, which also helped a lot as it kept up in the hills the first night.

On the whole this turned out well, but all the elements that could lead to a serious problem were there and are still there today as the wind gets ready to blow again.

Please sign this
"A Ranger in CA"

On 10/26 you said "Any Captain that would put his engine at the top of a chimney, fail to notice that the main fire had arrived at his location from the predicted direction, fail to notice that a firing operation (with helicopter drops and burning for 35 minutes) had occurred only a few hundred feet away and ordered his crew to abandon the safest place to ride out the passing fire front probably should face some kind of adverse action."

Adverse action is not the goal of people who want to improve safety... lessons learned and understood are. It is such an awesome thing to see family members from these accidents lend their personal experiences to the discussion. We should never discount their opinions and recommendations for safety from an outside viewpoint. They have the same goal as most of us.... to make wildland firefighting safer.

Three observations:

1) There is usually never just one mistake that causes a burnover incident. I would hope we all know that. The Swiss Cheese Model has been proven time and time again to be an accurate model of why accidents happen. When someone thinks there is just one person or a certain small group of people contributing to the accident, they will surely be shown to be wrong when the causal and contributing factors are made public. Sometimes, an Agency (all Agencies) remove the things that could hurt a policy, a person, or an Agency through redactions or editing prior to release. This is a fact of life in our times when people worry more about litigation than keeping their fellow firefighters safe.

The Forest Service (at least the fire folks and some key non-fire managers) is undergoing a doctrinal review/change process that is focusing on six key fundamental areas to improve safety and efficiency. It took alot of hurt feelings, beating up on policies, people holding back punches when they wanted to swing, and occasionally pointing fingers at the opinions of key people above them to at least get the possibility of change upon the table. These changes came from the lessons learned from many tragic fires of the past and the things that happened during the Cedar, Old, and Grand Prix fires of 2003. They seeds of change happened from the events of the South Canyon, Thirty Mile, Cramer Fires and all of the other fatality fires from the last twenty years.

2) The main predicted direction of spread was up the San Diego River Drainage with a normal upslope flanking run towards the accident site that was roughly 45 degrees off from the San Diego River Canyon. The upslope flanking movement appears, to many experienced and educated people, to have been influenced negatively by the multiple ignitions around structures upslope of, and out of alignment from the head that was moving up the San Diego River Drainage. Don't forget, there was alot of fire that was set upslope around numerous structures (simple fire dynamics). This may have been a good tactic to "fire and get the hell out of the way and let God sort them out" if it hadn't been the fact that most of the structures were being protected by fire engines not overly familiar with the local drought, fuel conditions, and fire behavior. A simple communication that said, "Hey, these structures are un-defendable, you need to leave and I'll tell the Division Supervisor I am making a last ditch effort to save them by firing out around them" may have been a simple plug to a hole in the Swiss Cheese Model.

3) The use of a vehicle as a refuge is something you may want to investigate more. As a last resort refuge, the house was a far better choice. There are lots of variables, but residual burnout time for the fuels is extended in the house rather than in the vehicle. (It takes longer to make a house untenable than a vehicle that has a fiberglass hood, rubber door sealing, rubber tires, and glass that is prone to cracking and letting in direct flames and gases. It might be OK as a last resort to ride out the burnover in a grass fire, but in chaparral and timber (with long residual burnout times), it's a very bad choice.

See the Crank Fire Video (no link available) and Surviving Fire Entrapments: Comparing Conditions Inside Vehicles and Fire Shelters: www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/htmlpubs/htm97512817/index.htm

The Aussies also have some good info on using the structure before a vehicle as a refuge.

Lobotomy

Jim R

If anyone wants this, email me and I'll send it. Ab.

Policy Interpretation of the Supplemental Qualification Standard for the GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist This is to be used in conjunction with the GS-0401 Fire Management Specialist Standard.

Basic Requirements:
A. Education: Successful completion of a full 4-year course of study in an accredited college or university leading to a bachelor’s or higher degree in biological sciences, agriculture, natural resource management, or related discipline appropriate to the position being filled. The following majors are creditable:
1. Disciplines identified in the 400 Professional and Scientific Series Standard for General Biological Science/Natural Sciences:

Agriculture - Agricultural Extension - Agronomy - Animal Science - Biochemistry - Biological Sciences (General) - Biometrics (includes Applied Forestry*) – Botany Ecology – Entomology - Fishery Biology (includes marine/aquatic) Forestry -General Fish & Wildlife - Administration Genetics – Horticulture - Microbiology - Natural Resources - Management Pharmacology - Physiology - Plant Pathology
Plant Physiology - Plant Protection & Quarantine - Rangeland Management - Soil Conservation - Soil Science – Toxicology = Wildlife - Biology Wildlife Refuge Management - Zoology

2. Natural Resource related disciplines as determined by Fire Management subject matter experts to meet the Natural Science Group GS-400

Chemistry - Earth Sciences - Environmental Sciences** - Geology – Hydrology –Meteorology - Outdoor Recreation*** - Physical Geography* - Physics - Watershed Management - Fire Management/Fire Science

Send in any questions. I'll answer or research it. I'm pretty busy today but I'll be back at that tomorrow.

Thanks for your input Ab.

Mellie

Avian Flu / Pandemic Influenza
Key Messages

No one really knows when or if the avian flu will become a pandemic.
• Pandemic diseases have occurred periodically throughout human history.
• We can study the past for lessons learned on how to prevent or respond to a pandemic.
• We have the advantage of being able to plan for a possible avian flu pandemic.

In the years since past pandemics, public health officials have greatly improved our ability to detect and control infectious diseases.
• We have become more vigilant in our surveillance.
• We will recognize a new strain more quickly when it emerges.
• We will be able to take precautions to reduce the impact of a new influenza virus strain.

Public health officials worldwide have been preparing for a pandemic flu for several years.
• LPHAs will utilize many of the same responses they use on a daily basis to control the spread of disease.
• The focus on planning for bioterrorism attacks has strengthened LPHAs’ response plans for all public health emergencies.
• LPHAs’ local plans will be strengthened with guidance and support from state and federal levels.

No one knows for sure how serious or deadly a worldwide avian flu outbreak would be.
• Scientists and government believe it could pose a serious threat to public health.
• Some estimates place the number of deaths as high as 360 million people.
• Avian flu should be taken seriously and planned for.

The general public can take steps today to prepare themselves and their families for an avian flu pandemic.
• Become more diligent about good hygiene.
o Hand washing
o Respiratory etiquette
o Avoid touching your face
• Improve your overall health.
o Quit smoking
o Improve eating habits
o Exercise more
o Get immunizations
• Listen for information.

The CDC has a robust system for national influenza surveillance.
• Collaborating laboratories of the World Health Organization (WHO) and the National Respiratory and Enteric Virus Surveillance System (NREVSS) report the number, types, and subtypes of influenza viruses detected.
• Approximately 2,250 sentinel health-care providers report patient visits for influenza-like illness (ILI), and approximately 500 of these providers continue regular reporting throughout the summer. (Missouri DHSS has approximately 30 sentinel sites.)
• 122 U.S. cities report weekly mortality attributed to influenza and pneumonia.
• A national surveillance system records pediatric deaths associated with laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Health experts expect the next pandemic to be caused by a new subtype of influenza A.
• The new subtype will most likely emerge in the Far East due to the mingling of human and animal influenza viruses there.
• Vaccine for the novel influenza virus causing the pandemic is not expected to be generally available in Missouri before the virus reaches the state.
• Initial distribution of vaccine to Missouri will be extremely limited and must be prioritized to maximize effectiveness.

An outbreak of avian flu (H5N1) has been reported in several countries throughout Asia, and recently in Europe.
• Human infections have been reported in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and Indonesia.
• Humans have been infected by close contact with their domestic fowl.
• Rare instances of limited human-to-human transmission of avian flu have occurred.

Rare instances of limited human-to-human transmission of avian flu have occurred.
• These cases have occurred in association with outbreaks in poultry and should not be cause for alarm.
• In no instance has the virus spread beyond a first generation of close contacts or caused illness in the general community.
• To date, human infections with avian influenza A viruses detected since 1997 have not resulted in sustained human-to-human transmission.

(excerpts) "A nation unprepared… We are all gonna die… Who do you like?... The yankies or the red sox… Sensibly tuned between panic and indifference…. The national mood needs to be calibrated that is somewhere between indifference and panic. 5 % of the world population would die."

This is important legislation just as are many pieces of legislation that come before the Congress.... some have immediate needs and some have preparedness needs....

Thanks for the links Mellie... it is always good to be prepared for a potential looming catastrophe. Avian flu is something that at least a few upper level managers of federal land management agencies have been discussing seriously and starting the preparations for... ie - a "camp crud".... except this time it could be a potential fatal camp crud. An unseen or or recognized hazard to the wildland fire community that has national significance.

Gizmo

Also, I got this message from a friend; seemed applicable to the topic of expectations in emergencies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fema who?

This Weather Bulletin came from the Emergency Manager of Eddy County in North Dakota concerning the winter storms that hit North Dakota on the 4th and 5th of October 2005. I thought it was a little funny. Maybe because it has a lot of truth in its description.

WEATHER BULLETIN

Up here in the Northern Plains we just recovered from a Historic --- may I even say a "Weather Event" of "Biblical Proportions" with a historic blizzard of up to 24 inches of snow and winds up to 50 MPH that broke trees in half, stranded hundreds of motorist in lethal snow banks, closed all roads, isolated scores of communities and cut power to 10's of thousands.

George Bush did not come .... FEMA staged nothing ..... no one howled for the government ..... no one even uttered an expletive on TV ..... nobody demanded $2,000 debit cards .... no one asked for a FEMA trailer house ..... no news anchors moved in.

We just melted snow for water, sent out caravans to pluck people out of snow engulfed cars, fired up wood stoves, broke out coal oil lanterns or Aladdin lamps and put on an extra layer of clothes.

Even though a Category "5" blizzard of this scale has never fallen this early ... we know it can happen and how to deal with it ourselves.

Everybody is fine.

Ab added the underlines. Basically your home Agency will be paying.

Nerd, so your nerd-ishness is limited?

<sly smile> Just trolling a little and knowing you wouldn't be offended.
(Actually, I have given some thought to a meteorite too, but I don't think
Congress would fund the "getting ready" process.)

I have found it interesting in the aftermath of Wilma that some people are
surprised and angry that they aren't being rescued by FEMA or *someone*
as fast as they expect to be...

Mellie

Bravo to both of you; to Bob Rucker, my deepest sympathies, both for your loss and for your fight to start a discussion that some apparently don't want to see come out in open. During the discussion of the Cramer fire fatalities, an extended conversation took place over the degree of personal responsibility an IC should take. I don't want to open an old can of worms here, but I see this discussion as coming back in somewhat the same direction. At what point to fireline decisions become indefensible? There's a spectrum from perfect safety through reasonable risk to reckless disregard and beyond. That's what our training and SOPs are for...to define what a reasonable person with the same training, the same information, and the same resources would/should do in a given situation. Now, before anybody jumps down my throat, I realize that the command situation, and the command decision processes, are very complex. At the same time, where that reasonable man standard is violated, questions need to be asked. Bob, I believe you are asking them. As far as backfiring ceasing to be a viable tool, I don't see that happening; as far as maybe reconsidering how resources on an incident should be informed of and respond to backfiring, maybe that needs to get looked at.

Butterfly;

I've got a good bit of experience with writing grants for FEMA and DHS money, and there is definitely money out there; there are also grants available via BLM and the USFS. The problem is that in order to get money, you have to know exactly what you're asking for, and what effect it will have on your response capability. I've found that's the hardest hurdle to cross with a VFD. I think it was one of the French philosophers (or it might have been Marx) who said "The people will never fight for freedoms they have never known". How do you persuade people to write grants for tools they've never had and training they've never heard of instead of tools they've used over and over again, like bunker gear and structure trucks?

Mellie;

Why on earth would you think of me in conjunction with a two-hour virology lecture? Is this the point when I confess that my first response was "Oh, cool!"? Any research you might do and pass on to the collective would be greatly appreciated. All-risk is getting broader, isn't it? I figure the way things are going, somebody on the site will be responding to a meteorite impact before too long.

Nerd on the Fireline

Ab.

An audio version of the Nightline program (9/30/0, ABC) worth listening to.
Nightline Program on Pandemic Flu (mp3 audio): About 35-40 min. Ted Koppel interviews Senator Frist (who's a physician), Senator Reed, Michael Osterholm (Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy) and others. Excellent introduction.

Audio & Photomontage on the Next Killer Flu (relatively short piece) from the October 2005 issue of the National Geographic

PBS Wideangle: Avian Influenza (Sep 2005), including an interactive map, photo essay, filmmaker’s notes and an online trailer. (It's gotten much more complicated than the PBS story in the last month... Bird Migration Routes and October Bird Pandemic Map).

For Nerd on the Fireline and others who might like to sit through an hour-long lecture on the biology, virology, sociology of the H5N1 virus and the beginnings of the emerging pandemic in Southeast Asia. It's 2 hrs. The first hour by Dr. Suarez (SE Poultry Research Station, US Dept of Agriculture) is excellent science info.
Pandemic Influenza - Alabama Public Health Training Network, 2004. (Uses Realplayer.)

I have more audio-visual links and links to websites where you can read up, ask questions and get answers. I have suggestions for how we can prepare for our families. I'm willing to do the research. Just say the word and I will share. Preparation is what it's all about. Timing may be everything. We will have the equivalent of Katrinas and Wilmas in many cities and communities around the US and the world one day soon. That will not be the time to ask each other what we should do. We should and can be ready.

Mellie -
Old Chinese blessing: "May you live in interesting times."

We can make another page if need be. Ab.

It astounds me as to the efforts that are made to defend the indefensible actions of the CDF FC on Orchard Lane. I look at the postings on this site and it seems that those that want to rationalize the approach that nothing is broke, therefore we don't need to change outnumber saner views like those expressed by "Lobotomy".

"CDF Captain" throws out accusations of motivation for the purposes of a lawsuit. I find these comments entirely offensive and so far from the truth that they barely warrant the dignity of a response. Could the motivation be something as simple as learning from a tragedy and implementing changes to do everything possible to prevent a future occurrence?

As a Californian, I have tremendous respect for all firefighters. I know that Steve Rucker was proud of his 2 seasons that he served with CDF where his first wildland fire was the Lexington Reservoir fire in 1985. It is a shame that CDF members are viewing this as an attack on their organization. I think the challenge to the organization is to learn from this event and implement positive changes to reduce risks to all firefighters.

Whenever an airplane crashes, investigators determine the causes that resulted in the event. These investigations result in binding procedural changes to minimize the chance for a recurrence. This seems like a rational approach and I think anyone who travels by air expects and values this approach. Could you imagine the outcry if the airlines tried to defend against making any changes the way we are seeing with some of the postings on this site?

I realize that firing is a necessary tool for wildland firefighting. At the same time, this tool caries risks and I have a tough time comprehending why so many are opposed to any types of safety standards. God forbid that the lessons of the Cedar Fire are ignored and a similar event occurs again. It was a miracle that all 4 of the Novato firefighters were not lost that day.

I would also challenge everyone to really look at the reports objectively. The Niosh report clearly states that Asthma was not a factor. If "CDF Captain" were to objectively read this report he would understand that. Steve was incapacitated by carbon monoxide for causes outlined in the Niosh report - none that had anything to do with Asthma.

The comments that the Novato truck has safety issues that prevented it from being used as a shelter also show that the report was not comprehended properly. Novato saw that the stock brake lines had almost melted through so they decided to retrofit all engines with braided stainless steel lines. I hardly think that had any impact of the engine being used as a refuge.

It is easy to look back with the clarity of hindsight and say what should have been done differently that day. Everyone can now speculate that the engine might have provided safe refuge but I can understand why the Novato crew elected not to do so with flames cutting off the escape route to the front of the engine. Whether or not this was a position that should have been defended is also a matter of speculation. I think that debate concerning the topography, weather conditions and any other factors are something that everyone should apply to how they might approach a similar situation in the future.

One thing that is not open to debate is whether the firing operations that occurred that day were done in a proper manner. A rouge FC engaged in these firing activities with no authorization from the IC and no communication to the firefighters in the area. This is fact and stated as such in the CDF report. The CDF report dances around the issue as what impact the firing operation had on the Novato crew. I was at the site shortly after the event and it's a toss up as to whether it was the backfire or main fire that reached the fatality site first. It was very clear that the 2 separate fires merged together. In any event, the CDF report does go so far as to estimate that the firing operation resulted in the Novato crew losing at least 90 seconds of response time.

Given these facts, I find it odd that anyone is opposed to having standards to insure that firing operations are conducted in a safe manner. I do not think anyone disputes the importance of this tool but it's a tool that needs to be used properly to insure lives are not jeopardized in the process.

As we approach the 2-year anniversary of Steve Rucker's death, I would ask that everyone look objectively at this event. Steve would want everyone to learn from this so that nobody else suffers a similar fate.

Bob Rucker (Steve Rucker's brother)

With all due respect to this wonderful women, while her husband was involved in a terrible accident, it in no way even is comparable to the causal factors she cites in Tuolumne Fire. Both tragedies are so different, to connect them both simply as the result of a “backfire” is incorrect. Mrs Rucker, I feel for you and you have every right to be very angry at the department and individuals involved, but please do no tie the hands of thousands of other firefighters with another “safety mandate” before engaging in a tactic. Much of what we do on the fireline is a combination of timing, science, experience, and art. Don’t take that away.

In reading the report on the Cedar and talking to those there afterward, it is fairly straight forward some of the omissions and acts that occurred. Some you cite, some you do not.

My thoughts are with you and I’m sorry for your loss.

“Another CDF BC”

Any Captain that would put his engine at the top of a chimney, fail to notice that the main fire had arrived at his location from the predicted direction, fail to notice that a firing operation (with helicopter drops and burning for 35 minutes) had occurred only a few hundred feet away and ordered his crew to abandon the safest place to ride out the passing fire front probably should face some kind of adverse action.

Then of course there is his Strike Team Leader that did know about the firing operations and didn’t tell anybody. Or possibly the Division Supervisor that bought off on “some of the CDF FC’s ideas” and apparently authorized firing operations outside the direct line construction he ordered, then leaves the only uncontained portion of his division and heads into Julian.

Of course on the CDF side we have a guy that pretended to have authority on a fire he wasn’t even assigned to and starts a completely uncoordinated firing operation in the middle of a bunch of houses and people.

Am I saying any of this mitigates the CDF FC’s guilt? No, of course not and he should be punished if for no other reason than to discourage others in the future. But he should be accused of and punished for what he did wrong, a rogue firing operation.

CDF said he didn’t kill anyone. The Novato presentation opens by stating that CDF employees did not cause the death. The closest thing they make to any accusation is to say the Rucker might have been disoriented by breathing super heated gases from the firing operation, and they don’t offer any proof of that.

There was a lot of bad judgment that absolutely contributed to the eventual outcome on Orchard Ln. that day.

Fire Away...

Try giving Rusty a call. If he's not off dancing with Wilma he might be working with Gary. There's a design plan afoot to determine what's offered based on who-needs-what to progress in their quals so we have the right number of people moving on up to fill the positions on the forests. "Sizing the pipe to carry the flow required to meet the needs of the forests." Pretty sweet from what I've seen. Ab.

It's interesting how easy comments on the internet can be misinterpreted. I wouldnt
have realized cris was female if she hadn't said pregnant. I had assumed "guy"...

She apparently took something askew that ncbrush6 or copter100 said. As a friend
says... this internet communication, funny stuff. I think there was misinterpretation??

Tahoe Terrie

Read the post above. Ab.

So that you will have a more complete idea, these points are the ones I mentioned at the CA Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board meeting on October 20, 2005:

First of all, I held up Steve's photo and told the Board members that he had dedicated his life to public safety. I said that, as an EMT student at Santa Rosa JC, I was beginning to understand that perspective.

I quoted from their "Division Evaluation" of my petition where it is stated that "it would be a considerable challenge to develop specific, mandatory standards for firing out operations that would assure optimal safety in all situations, without impairing the flexibility to respond to sudden, dramatic, unanticipated changes in fire behavior". I then mentioned the 9 suggested safety standards in the NIOSH report. I asked the Board if they would like for me to read them to them. Several of them nodded their heads, and so I read all nine of them aloud. Here is the link to the NIOSH report: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200336.html

Next I quoted the part of their evaluation that stated "several organizations such as the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) and the International Fire Service Training Association have developed safe practices for firing out operations. Although not carrying the same legal mandate as California Title 8 standards, such standards are readily recognized and implemented throughout the fire service profession." I held up a copy of the NWCG Fireline Handbook. I turned to page 48 of Chapter 5, Firefighting Safety. There is a small section on Firing Equipment. I told the Board that the sections talks about fueling your equipment, making sure that you are grounded, and I quoted that it says "maintain constant radio communications between the firing operations and other appropriate fireline personnel". Then I held up the Fireline Handbook and said, "This is a reference, these are not safety standards." I mentioned that IFSTA is in Oklahoma and that they write textbooks on every aspect of firefighting - but they do not write safety standards. I said that NFPA writes safety standards. (CDF - who helped the Board write their evaluation - should have known not to give me a load of $%&*@ like that. They obviously did not give me much credit at all.)

I reiterated that their evaluation concluded that this was a "training issue". At first I blurted out that "I do not agree". But then I caught myself. I then said that it is a training issue. I mentioned that one of the firefighters involved had 25 years of experience. Then I went on to talk about the lack of water supply and not being in radio communication. Then I thought to myself, "You're missing one and it's very important." And then it came to me. I also said that their firing operation was not authorized by the incident commander.

In closing I said something like, "You may think that this was a terrible accident and that it will not be repeated." And then I said, "Well, it already has. Eva Schicke lost her life in August 2004 and she was also involved in a backfiring accident."

Condolences. Ab.

Scientific American article: Preparing for a Pandemic

Self sufficiency...

Mellie

E

Nerd on the Fireline

Cris

JE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
USDA Forest Service
Fire and Aviation Management
Briefing Paper
Date: October 2, 2005

Topic: Application of overtime regulations

Issue: Exempt employees who are at a pay rate greater than GS-10 step 1 responding to non-fire emergencies who are assigned to exempt positions do not receive full time and one half pay for overtime hours worked.

Background: Prior to January 2001, FLSA-exempt employees who worked in exempt positions when responding to wildland fires were subject to the overtime pay provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 which limited overtime pay to 1 ½ the basic pay rate up to the overtime pay rate of a GS-10 step 1. In 2000, Public Law 106-558 Firefighter Pay Reform Act amended 5 U.S.C 5542 (a) to allow full overtime to be paid to wildland firefighters of the Department of Interior and Forest Service beginning January 20, 2001. This authority applies only when wildland firefighters are engaged in wildland fire suppression activities.

Key Points:

Non-exempt employees: Overtime rate of 1 ½ the basic rate of pay is paid for all work over 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week irregardless of the work the employee is performing.

Exempt employees:

Ø Non fire suppression work: Overtime pay for employees who are not covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA-exempt) generally is earned for hours of work in excess of 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week. For employees with pay rates equal to or less than the pay rate of a GS-10 step 1 full time and ½ is received for overtime worked. For employees with pay rates greater than a GS-10 step 1, the overtime rate is the greater of a GS-10 step 1 pay rate x 1.5 or the employee's hourly rate of pay.

Ø Exempt employees assigned to non-exempt positions: Exempt employees who are assigned to non-fire emergency incidents and perform nonexempt work for more than 20% of their work hours in any weekly tour of duty are entitled to be paid under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 5 CFR 551.208 (d). (i.e. receive overtime at a rate of 1 ½ times their basic rate of pay).

Ø Wildland Fire Suppression assignments: Wildland firefighters who are exempt from the FLSA overtime pay provisions, and are employees of the Department of Interior or Forest Service receive an overtime pay rate of 1 ½ their basic rate of pay while they are engaged in fire suppression activities only.

Bi-weekly pay limitations: Bi-weekly pay limitations apply to all employees. This limitation is waived for employees responding to wildland fire suppression activities. It can also be waived by the Department for Presidential declared emergencies at which time employees are paid under the annual limitation not to exceed the rate for a GS -15 Step 10 or Level V of the Executive Schedule, whichever is greater. Annual pay limitations still apply. There is no provision in law for waiving any salary payment received by an employee that exceeds the annual maximum earning limit.
Contact: Mary Ann Szymoniak 208-387-5499 or Emmy Ibison 406-329-3463

• Fuel-veg type photos, representing the variety of fuel that we have in California.
• Cloud photos, representing the types of clouds that indicate important weather changes.
• Fire suppression activities, showing the kinds of work involved in suppression.
• Topographic features, showing the hinds of terrain and features that are dangerous
  (like chimneys) or helpful (like safety zones).

If you have good quality slides or prints that you'd like to donate, I can scan and return
them to you. Please mail them to:
Charly Price
Tahoe National Forest
631 Coyote Street
Nevada City, CA 95959
(530) 478-6211
cprice01@fs.fed.us

Fuel valve blamed in failure of air tanker's engine CA

Fall Burning Begins On Central Oregon Federal Lands OR

Lassen park lights Prospect Peak fire CA

First Responders worldwide should be aware of (from National Public Radio)
The Spread of Bird Flu
Q&A: What is Bird Flu and Who's At Risk? 10/20
Q&A: Preparing for a Flu Pandemic 10/21

I was not in any way trying to start a pi23ing match. i must have hit a nerve.. relax.
i have been in the the life for 25 years. i am also on a vfd. and yes i am the only one
redcarded. but soon there will be more.. the avg age here is 35. lol, cris take a chill
and relax...

ncbrush6

I am JC the grandson of Marry Brooks and my Grandma retired around 1998.
Her sister Lilly Robinson also worked for the forest service and retired a few
years earlier. Both of them started fighting fire and burning slash in the
early 70s, around 71 or 72 according to my father. John Chester Sr. still
works at Mad River and the torch has been passed down to both me and my
little sister... neither of us born when our grandma and great aunt started
putting out fire. Both of us work on the SHASTA-Trinity N.F.

Ab sign me As D.H.

Hi JC, chip off the old block, aren't you? Welcome. I'll add a note to the IMWTK tomorrow. Ab.

I relocated (retired!!) here to N.C. from California after having spent 35 years with CDF. The Fire Department personnel in my town and those surrounding me have no desire to learn ANY courses in ICS. The newer and younger personnel desperately want to learn these skills but are being stonewalled by outdated and inefficient Chief Officers that have been in place for many years. Monies are scarce and the training budgets are the hardest hit. Concepts and principles of Emergency Management are almost non-existent and most VFDs do not welcome change or outside input. Sad...but true!

COPTER100

You can go to the national firetraining web and search the
nation for courses. Go here.

http://nationalfiretraining.net/schedule/

Good Luck.

Training Officer

I just read the complaint about vfds not pack testing nor red carding their members. Well, try having the average age of vfd FF's being 45. Not alot of the guys around here have the time nor are in the shape to do the pack test. We do encourage them to take Basic Wildland, Intermediate and all other classes they wish to take. Our guys have jobs that 365 days a year and work anywhere from 12 to 18 hour days. Who are these busy men and women? They are farmers and ranchers. We do drop what we are doing to go to a fire because that means some one is losing their livihood for the year. It takes training and understanding to fight a fire not a red card nor pack test and just because you have one does not mean that you know more then the guy who doesn't, but has been fighting fire in that area for over 20 years. I may be trained clear up to S-230 and 231, but I still count on my guys who have been there before to let me know when there is a problem starting.We count on each other.

So lets not a pi--ing match between those who have red cards and those who do not, and each vfd has their own set of rules and training. If any of my guys want to go on a project fire I send them to another local vfd that does the pack tests and they test there, but I make sure they have their basic or refresher before they go.

By the way we are very rural.
Cris

I strongly support efforts which help in that regard such as the increased firefighter
pay scale for southern California. I know more needs to be done and am committed
to trying to do so.

Could someone in the RO answer why we are not allowed to update our figures with OPM
even after WO requested the information? This would really show your commitment to the
phrase "more needs to be done".

Signed,
3 bedrooms, 2 baths and "freeway close" for only $726,000 !!!!!!

Thanks, I added it to the fire terms page. Ab.

Here are directions on how to bring it up for everyone to enjoy and see that all the stewards of the range greatly appreciate wildland firefighters for doing what they do.

Go to the Range Magazine, you go to the most recent issue, Fall 2005. Notice that top right says "On the cover: firefighters Bob Elliot and Jason Matheson."

Scroll down the contents in "Current Features" and click Portrait of the West. You will find the article that I told you about awhile back. It's a 1 page pdf file (168K, not large).

Cris

Crs, thanks for working with me to figure out links and such. Ab.

This time it was smooth jazz. Age doesn't make any difference. 3 Mi 45 min. with 45 pounds on, no run, walk, or you fail. At least that is the way it is in our dept. Young 69, closing on 70. We got told just 2 weeks ago that we will be testing just as our cards expire.

Old Man of the Dept.

Keep on truckin'

Readers, if you don't know the Work Capacity Test (Pack Test) prerequisites and requirements and how they relate to federal employment, you can find them via the Links page under Safety. Age hasn't stopped many a firefighter. (...This is where the Old Man of the Department always chimes in... Imagine a little music in the background... maybe Roy Rogers, Dale Evans and the Sons of the Pioneers...) Ab.

There are lessons to be learned all around if we can avoid the personal or agency attacks. Ab.

I am a NON EXEMPT Forest Service Helitack
Captain GS-8. I was told I can't gross more $5,036
per pay period because I hit the bi-weekly salary cap.
I was also told that I could not code my time with
the "11" prefix for fire overtime because that is for
EXEMPT employees such as GS-9s and so on. So I have
lost a few thousand dollars and was told I worked
several hundred hours for free. Is this really the
case? It seems ridiculous to me. This came from my
HR person. I just want to know if this true and if
there is any recourse.

JD

Thanks Rhino. Ab.

Rarely do I post, but I just had to give a "chuck on the shoulder" to "into the wind" for their post on the absurdity of how we proportion our dollars/resources/efforts etc. between suppression and fuels treatments. Our current situation is a disservice to the american public and a true "fleecing of america". It does give me hope to read posts like that. Which IMT do you work for - sounds like they have their act together

Hats off though to the forests/districts/parks that are utilizing fire use and aggressive fuels treatments - there are definitely many, many more than ever before. I hope the trend continues. We should be rewarding these folks and figure out a way to provide incentive to continue and go bigger.

I used to work out west, but now reside in the countries most flammable state - Florida. Prescribed fire is our suppression tool here. I got fed up with chasing single-tree juniper fires in the middle of nowhere. I know we can do better. If we can burn hundreds of thousands of acres here in the 4th most populous state in the nation, with most residents not being from Florida, and urban interface issues on nearly every burn then certainly those forests and BLM districts miles from anywhere can do better than they are. It take one or two very dedicated, passionate managers to get the job done. I hope in the future more of them have the cohones to do what is right!

Thanks Ab for the forum - hopefully Hurricane Wilma will decide what she is gonna do and get on with it!

Firepup21

Novato Firefighter's Widow Urges New Safety Standards

SoCal CDF

Colorado Firecamp

Currently there is no National Forest in the Nation that is getting the money they really need to do the Job in Hazardous fuels. Rather than push Congress for an overall increase in Hazardous fuels dollars (which she could do), she's telling the Forest service that they need to fully fund southern Ca, at the expense of all the other Forest's in the Nation. This smacks of the quincy library group type of stuff and is pure political bull____.

TC

This is in response to Jim's question about ff death due to heat, and the tradeoff involved in wearing an undergarment to decrease burn risk in burnovers.

I live and do volunteer trail work in eastern San Diego County, so the death of the young man struck a chord with me. The exact date escapes me, but it has been several years now. Perhaps 1997-2001?

The young man was from the Imperial Valley, was only in his late teens or early twenties, he died on a fire in Lakeside. I can't remember for sure but i think he was ascending the southern flank of the fire just N of Willow road between the circle K and wildcat cyn road.

The temp was over 100, and for some reason I think it may have been humid too. I dont think the gent was an inmate, I think he was a CCC or from a similar type program.

That day I was working my regular job as equipment mechanic in east county, I went thru almost 2 gallons of water and almost two 64 oz big gulps, still basically couldnt pee until I got home and drank more water..

As an aside, it is too bad there is not a single source of info on ALL wildland ff deaths and serious injuries in CA. The deaths should not be forgotten, nor should the after actions be buried and forgotten. I am having heck of time trying to find info on Inaja and Hauser Canyon fires. And also one in LA County in Altadena that killed at least 1 ff just downslope from a paved road . I think it was called the Glen Allen fire, for the street the origin was on.

DH

I heard, but never tried, that using Vick's vapor rub would help with poison ivy. Has
anybody tried this and does it work? I heard this from a lady in an Allergies training
course. (She was allergic to just about everything.)

Cris

Today (Oct. 18), President Bush signed into law the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act of Fiscal Year 2006 (HR 2360), worth $31.9 billion. The law decreases funding to the Assistance to Firefighter Grant (AFG) program, increases funding for the Staffing for Adequate Fire and Emergency Response (SAFER) Act, and provides a first-ever direct appropriation to the U.S. Fire Administration (USFA). The law also implements Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff's "second stage review", which would move a number of department functions, including the USFA, into a new Preparedness Directorate.

also more interesting reading about where funds will go: www.iafc.org

Hickman

"Molten material can cause severe burns. Do not try to peel the material from the skin.
Cool rapidly with water and continue whilst relief from pain is obtained. Obtain medical
help immediately."

SO NOW WHAT? If cotton ignites more quickly and burns faster than polyester, what should wildland firefighters wear under their Nomex shirt and pants? Polyester is less likely to ignite or sustain combustion, but if it does burn, will the injuries be worse than if cotton were worn?

I think the Missoula Technology Development Center should do some research on this. The advice the CPSC is giving conflicts with what firefighters have been taught for decades. Which school of thought is right?

Bill

I'm kind of new here. I was browsing today and found some funny and
good pages on the links page.

Wildland Fire's Terms is one. I had some good chuckles over that.

Striker

Welcome Striker. There are some others, too Links-Miscellaneous. Contribute if you want to. Ab.

haw haw... What other wild goose chases did you send those newbies on?... Ab.

Jim, some years back CDF also had to address death of an inmate or ccc (?) crewmember from overheating and dehydration. Maybe some CDFers can fill us in on that sad story. It's somewhere in the archives...

I'm sure you know July and August heat in California and in other parts of the West requires you drink lots of water on the fireline, too. It's key to use good judgment with respect to both hydration and clothing worn in heat and cold in different parts of the US and in different seasons. It's gettin' mighty chilly in northern Cali right now. Being too hot or too cold, not getting enough sleep, and not staying well hydrated reduces situational awareness. No doubt. Ab.

Try Eagle Emblems. www.eagleemblems.com. Most of our Stations used them for their station patches.

FB

“The recent Thurman and Topanga wildfires remind us that catastrophic fires like those of October 2003 will return to Southern California’s four national forests,” Senator Feinstein said. “There is no greater priority than protecting lives and homes, and no place in the country where as many lives and homes are at risk to forest fires as Southern California. I urge the Forest Service to provide the urgently needed funding to build effective buffers around our communities to save lives and thousands of homes.”

The regional office of the Forest Service has determined that an annual funding level of $46.4 million is needed to clear away the brush and dead and dying trees from these four forests to protect communities and escape routes for their residents. The Forest Service’s preliminary budget for Fiscal Year 2006 provides only $7.5 million, or 16%, of the needed hazardous fuel reduction funding for these forests.

Senator Feinstein is calling on the Forest Service to increase the funding needed to remove the thousands of acres of dead and bark beetle-infested trees and overgrown chaparral in Southern California’s national forests. There are nearly 7 million Southern California residents living within an area considered at risk from the threat of catastrophic forest fires. An at-risk community is often defined as extending one-and-a-half miles from a forest boundary.

Following is the letter sent by Senator Feinstein to Mark Rey, Under Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and Environment:

October 17, 2005
The Honorable Mark Rey
Under Secretary for Natural Resources and Environment
Department of Agriculture
1400 Independence Avenue, S.W.
Washington, DC 20250

Dear Under Secretary Rey:

The recent Thurman and Topanga wildfires remind us that catastrophic fires like those of October 2003 will return to Southern California’s four national forests: the San Bernardino, Angeles, Cleveland and Los Padres. The only question is whether we build effective buffers around our communities to save lives and thousands of homes. In response to my inquiry, the regional office of the Forest Service has determined that an annual funding level of $46.4 million is needed for these four forests to clear away the brush and dead trees in order to protect communities and escape routes for their residents.

I am gravely concerned that the Forest Service’s preliminary budget for Fiscal Year 2006 provides a mere 16% of the needed fuel reduction funding for these forests, $7.5 million as compared to the $46.4 million need. And it could have been even worse – if Congress had not earmarked $5 million for fuels work at the San Bernardino National Forest, these forests would have received only $2.5 million, or just 5% of the fuel reduction funds they need. In addition, there is no funding currently slated for the $8 million needed next year for rehabilitation and restoration of burned areas on the four Southern California forests.

The sheer numbers of people at risk from catastrophic fire in Southern California are unparalleled anywhere else in the country. By one definition, the urban area at risk from forest fires extends one-and-a-half miles from the forest boundary. Fully 6.8 million people live within one-and-one-half miles of one of the Southern California forests, more than the population of 38 states. And on weekend days 115,000 people regularly visit the San Bernardino National Forest alone, more than can be readily evacuated. Another 187,000 people live on private land within the outer boundaries of the four Southern California forests, making them particularly susceptible to being trapped by fire.

Without effective buffers in place to protect all these people, the 2003 fires were catastrophic for Southern California: 24 people were killed, 3710 homes were destroyed, 750,043 acres burned, and the cost to Federal, State, and local entities so far has exceeded $1.2 billion. We cannot let this happen again.

The Governor’s Blue Ribbon Fire Commission, which Governor Schwarzenegger convened in response to the October 2003 fires, has outlined what needs to be done:

"The most critical areas will continue to be the urban interface areas in and around the four southern forests. These communities have significant populations and limited means of egress. Concentrations of standing dead trees increase the potential for fire to spread rapidly. Evacuation and firefighting efforts in these communities are difficult and dangerous.... The protection of life and property from wildfire cannot simply rely on the availability of firefighting resources. Until the removal of thousands of acres of dead and bark beetle infestation to trees and sound Forest stewardship is achieved, southern California and other forested areas of the state to will continue to have hazardous standing fuel just waiting to become the next conflagration."

In the face of the need to protect all these people and their homes, I am concerned that the Forest Service has been steadily reducing California forests’ share of the general National Forest System, Construction, and Hazardous Fuels accounts, from 15.6% in Fiscal Year 2003 to a proposed 13.8% in Fiscal Year 2006. The rationale is that California no longer has the same volume of timber harvest as it did in the 1980's. But following the 2003 passage of the President’s Healthy Forests Restoration Act, which I strongly supported, I understood the Forest Service to refocus its efforts on hazardous fuel reduction. Others besides the Forest Service have recognized the urgent need to reduce forest fuels: 60 local Fire Safe Councils work with homeowners in Southern California to thin brush on private property, and a single company, Southern California Edison, has spent $162 million in the last two years clearing rights-of-way around its power lines in Southern California.

Even the current funding level for hazardous fuel reduction in California is in question. Of the $46 million allocated for hazardous fuel reduction on California forests, $6 million comes from excess Knutson-Vandenburg Act funds. I understand that the continued viability of this funding source depends on the Forest Service’s administrative decision to keep allocating these monies from timber receipts. I urge the agency to use its discretion to provide urgently needed funding on the Southern California forests.

There is no greater hazardous fuel reduction priority than protecting lives and homes, and no place in the country where as many lives and homes are at risk as Southern California. I ask that you work with me to find the resources to get this job done.

Sincerely,
Dianne Feinstein, United States Senator

###

James Peterson
Regional Director, Office of U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein

I like rolling out of my comfy sleeping bag in the
morning
when the frost is on the ridgepole,
o'dark30
clad in my purple nomex long-johnnies,
top n bottom if it's cold
shaking my hair free of my cap,
slipping tootsies into my matching nomex slips,
'nother barbie in the woods?
...sidling up to the fire,
grabbin' some logs,
tossin' 'em on and
watchin' embers rise on the new flames'
convection whirl in the morning half-light;
cuddlin' a cup o' joe,
hand around, heat trailin' up
knowing I can sit there
warming frontside backside frontside and
them darn'd embers won't burn holes in my
soft fleecy sleepwear...

ummmmmmmm...

Didn't think about my respiratory system, Aberdeen...
Think I should worry?

Mellie

In any event I am going to throw out a few things here that may or may not be relevant everywhere.

There was a comment about folks ventilating a structure that is obviously a complete loss while hundreds of others no doubt are threatened. This is a training and command & control issue. There is no way this should be taking place unless every other structure threatened has a resource assigned to it, and unless it’s a smaller fire that is contained, we all know that is not going to be the case.

vfd cap’n said: “There needs to be some guidance for acceptable strategy and tactics to guide the independent action that occurs while command and control is being established.” I totally agree. My question is, what is out there now for strategy and tactics for structure protection? I do not know specifically what the content of S215 is now, but when it first came out (as S205), I don’t recall there being much of anything tactics wise in it as we had to add in our own stuff. The farther away we pull resources from to an incident, the more important these base classes become so that everyone is working from the same foundation in knowing what to do and what is expected. We have developed our own structure protection tactics that we feel work well in our environment. They have evolved over the years, but the important thing is that we train annually with our local FDs so that everyone knows their role and responsibility (local FD officers basically run a structure branch under OPS) as well as tactics, strategy and safety for structure protection when the big one hits. Is everyone doing this? I sure hope so. If not, shame on them.

In a nutshell, our strategy in structure protection now makes a bigger push for working from the black. This is not to say that we do not assign resources out in front of the fire, we do, but they are farther out (trying to stay at least one hour in front of the fire) for safety reasons. The push for working from the black came from experienced FD folks citing that they felt from their experiences that they safely saved more structures by coming in behind the fire front and putting out small fires on structures than risking their neck by trying to wet things down and getting out at the last minute before the fire gets there.

Well, I guess this didn’t turn out to be the novel I thought it would be, but its just a few of the thoughts that have been bouncing around my head on this topic. If someone wants a copy of the structure protection tactics guide mentioned, the Abs know how to get a hold of me and I will gladly send out a generic copy.

Pulaski

another squaddie

The OLD fire video that show Del Rosa also show some interesting
stuff as far as PPE, nothing I haven't seen before.....

Fuels Monkey

Take a look at most any race web site and you will find what you need.
This is a good plan. We were thinking along this line also...

Racer

Chuck Roast Fleece has nomex jackets. Contact info on the Classifieds page. Ab.

Massif in Ashland Oregon has a variety of nomex gear including long underwear...
Be prepared to spend some of that "H" pay it is a little spendy.

Ser

I've been trying to send 2 pages from official booklet from CA F/F Memorial 05. Kids are grown and gone so there is a major malfunction here on the operator's part.

It was a professional service with Pipes & Drums. There were 500 uniformed F/Fs marching behind the Pipes and Flags from all Color Guards. The service was professional with the families in mind. There were 7 Forest Service names added. This included tanker pilots KIA from past years. All were inscribed on the wall as USFS. Also, one NPS, Arrowhead Shot Dan Holmes, with his crew in attendance. It was truly moving to see all F/F's in uniform, no matter from what agency, marching together. All the families seated, started that when the procession marched from the north wing of the Capitol to the Memorial Site, they could hear the marching steps of 1,000 boots. There were 30 new names added. Line of Duty, Job related Cancer, Iraq KIA, past names recalled, & Edward Gates USFS 7/28/1945 (dozer operator, Calandra Peak Fire, Williams Peak, Monterey County).

I watched Greeno's flag being presented to the family. She was magnificent, in this time of tribute.

Pay it forward.
Rush

DH from Anchorage,

Why don't you just buy wool long handles?

Sin Nombre

I found her contact info and sent her an email. Thanks, Jim. Ab.

Alan's link is on the classifieds page under books & videos and he sponsors the fire photos page. We've heard it is good but we haven't seen the video. Ab.

Here's the message that came with it:

katrina support:
great slide show let me know if you get this,,

Polo

A reader wrote in that the slide show was done by a photographer with the Fire Department of New York. If anyone knows who and can provide us with info on who we should give credit to, send it in. Otherwise we take the slide show off the server tomorrow morning. It is not fire per se, although it does come under all risk... Ab.

-Sam Crenshaw, Healdsburg Fire Department

Thanks Sam and welcome. I'm added the info to the photo description page. Ab.

Agree with some...don't agree with others. Just remember...if it's your crew that's fighting the red devil...DON'T get in a mind set that one and only one tactic is better than any other. Remain flexible and be able to move. You can be aggressive while safely deploying your resources in a defensive posture. Above all...stay with your people. You're only as good as they are!

COPTER100

vfd cap'n

Also I just read a article in JAMA concerning Avian flu, and other camp born illnesses. It stated that hand sanitizing stations where people collect can reduce spread of disease by over 90%!!!! The caveat is that everyone needs to do it, so sanitize your hands before and after you eat, brief, porta potties, or reach into that horse trough of iced down drinks.

later and be safe all
Eric

In 30 years we have not had such a dismal state of affairs regarding the airtanker industry. The last two fire seasons since this upheaval by the USFS have been pretty weak. What is going to happen when we have a bad season and there is no AIR SUPPORT!! It seems to me the first thing ordered on a fire with some potential is more tankers. What is going to happen when there are none available? We are the wealthiest country in the world yet there are countries with far less resources available to them who are modernizing and increasing there fixed wing fire fighting fleet and we are doing absolutely nothing. Does anyone else share these thought and concerns or is it going to be a typical reactive situation and homes and lives are going to have to be lost before we do something about it.

sincerely,

concerned

Just got back from assignments in Southern California, Thurman on the San Berdo, Staging at Santa Barbara and Sky on the Cleveland. Half the crew is out with some sort of stomach ailment, running to the head every 5 minutes cramping etc. Came home a couple days early because of this disease. Anyone else having similar symptoms on the crews? Sounds like several folks at the dispatch center on the Cleveland were similarly affected. May not have been something they ate. I appreciate any info.

Dan Fiorito, Union IHC

FWFSA MEMBERS SEEK CONFERENCE REGISTRATION EXTENSION

Despite best laid plans, many FWFSA members are still on assignments in Texas and the Gulf States and have asked me to extend the period for registering for the membership conference in Reno Dec. 2-3.

The previous deadline was tomorrow, October 15th. Instead, we will extend the period for returning the registration cards already sent to our members to NOVEMBER 15TH.

It is important to note however that room reservations must still be made by NOVEMBER 2ND by phoning 800-648-5080 and making reservations by using room code # FWFS5.

Should anyone have any questions, please don't hesitate to call me directly at (916) 515-1224. Hope to see you there.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Todd

The Forest Service www server failed. They're working on it, but in the meantime relying on the backup pages. I understand some backups are being pulled from June when fire danger was a whole lot different than today. I've heard the webmasters are calling the USUCK helpdesk (actually EUSC) to lodge complaints. Ab.

“Anchor and Hold” is not a viable tactic period in my opinion.
Saw it first hand, seen it on video. Nope.

“Another CDF BC”

I thought Gweto was a special undercover strong arm, maybe
formerly employed by Vanna White for all I know.

Thanks for the words in support. I aim to serve.

Thanks also for following through on the $$ collecting! How about
emailing folks with a reminder? Is that considered poor form? Or
phone? I could give them a "Mellie call" for ya.

Casey, thanks for the honorary FWFSA membership card.
Awesome! Very nice plastic! When will it get me into Disneyland???
Do I have to present it at the door of the FWFSA Conference to gain
entry?

Mellie

I think Vicki is thinking Guido. As in the mafia guy who comes along and enjoys break'in legs.

OA

haw haw. Oopsie, was I supposed to just fix that? Ab.

Mellie, what I appreciate about your post is that it's not about fear - it's really about wisdom: planning and making good choices. I have never known you to be an alarmist and, again, I see how you just deal with life. Thanks for the research and I'm glad you shared. The information you posted answered some of the questions we've been wondering about here in the office and put some order on all the stuff swirling around out there. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Re the Ken Perry run:

This being the first year for the Ken Perry run, and the first time we've had pledges. We did not sent out snail-mail statements to collect on them (mostly because of the expense).

This is just a kindly reminder to send those pledges in... so we don't have to send Gweto to your office to collect. If you can't remember what you pledged or if you'd like to pay with a credit card, please call. Or, you can do PayPal via our website. We'd like to begin to get some closure on this event (sooner or later)... It was fun.

Vicki Minor
Director
Wildland Firefighter Foundation
208-336-2996

H&SWT= NWCG Safety and Health Working Team. Ab.

I agree with you that the best possible scenario is to just put the darn fire out. However, that's not always possible. Sometimes the fire is beyond the capabilities of the resources you have. Do you spend an hour driving dirt roads to the bottom of a river drainage to properly anchor and flank a fire that started at the bottom when the fire will have burned homes at the top well before then? I hope not.

Anchor and hold is just another option just like bump and run. I'm assuming that if you don't like one, you don't like the other? I've walked through hundreds of homes destroyed in 2003. One thing that struck me in the areas I worked was that the fire was carried from structure to structure. Vegetation was not involved in the fire spread in the neighborhoods. Just how do you anchor and flank with a handcrew when the fire is "crowning" in the shake shingles? These fires ceased to be a veg fire and became a structural conflagration, necessitating a change in tactics.

That's my take... but I'm willing to learn.

Fish

Date: October 5, 2005
Topic: Constraining WFSU Funds for Aviation

Issue: Utilization of WFSU for aviation resources has been constrained by an OMB Footnote in the Agency’s FY 2006 Wildland Fire Apportionment. The constraint will adversely affect the Agency’s ability to suppress wildfire and significantly hinder relationships with cooperators.

Background: OMB inserted the following language in the Apportionment: “Not more than $100 million of suppression funds is available for acquisition of aviation resources five days after submission of an Exhibit 300”. The Agency utilizes suppression funds for initial attack and large fire support aviation resources. The Agency is preparing an Exhibit 300 for aviation resources, but it is not complete at this time.

Key Points:

Exhibit 300: The Forest Service awarded a contract in September 2005 to complete an Exhibit 300 for all Forest Service aircraft. Phase I of the contract includes airtankers and is scheduled for completion in March 2006. The scheduled completion date for all aircraft is February 2007.

• Requiring an Exhibit 300 prior to expending funds will effectively shutdown the Forest Service’s aviation program in FY 2006 with the exception of some limited use of airtankers late in the fiscal year.
• Implications of this action would be those stated below, only increased in magnitude until such time as the Exhibit 300 was completed.

Funding Constraint: Aviation traditionally accounts for approximately thirty percent of total suppression expenditures, in FY 2005 these cost were $180 million through September 21, 2005.

• A spending limitation of $100 million dollars reduces capability 50 to 75 percent. The reduction would eliminate use of a significant portion of the fleet and would be necessary to assure that the remaining aircraft are managed and operated safely and efficiently.

Implications: The requirement of an Exhibit 300 pre expenditure of funds or implementation of the funding constraint has significant implications to Forest Service and cooperators’ suppression activities, including:

• Reduced initial attack success rate; the current rate of 99% could be expected to drop into the low 90’s resulting in additional large fires (those greater than three hundred acres).
• Increased loss of government and private property. Some of this loss could be mitigated through ground based resources subject to availability and timing of the incident.
• Increased resource damage and environmental impacts such as: loss of habitat and air and water quality degradation.
• Increased demand for ground based Agency and cooperator resources to respond to larger and longer duration fires.
• Reduced capability to support federal partners and state, county, and local governments due to loss of aviation capability and resulting increased demand for ground based resources.

Contact: Bill Breedlove, Branch Chief, Fire Planning, 202-205-0996

Sign me......

Ya... this has to be shared.... oops

There is good and bad with all wildland fire agencies. The good with FWS? You can be recognized as you are a fish in a small pond, and if you do good, management will see it. Good training opportunities, too (usually). Good GS grade advancement, also, when compared to other agencies.

It is an agency run by biologists, so the 401 series is king (and they have almost always hired 401 series FMOs and AFMOs). So a college degree is highly valued in the agency.

The bad? In MOST Regions of the FWS, you (as FMO or AFMO) work for the Refuge Manager. Engine Bosses work for the FMO or AFMO, BUT.... The concept of "Congressionally allocated FIRE dollars", nationally available resources, and a "help other agencies when needed" is perceived by Refuge Managers on a case-by-case basis. In other words, Refuge Managers often want to use you at home (fence projects, road grading, duck counts, public hunt administration, biological work). I was told once that the biotechs couldn't do fence work, as they "had important work to do". Like fire work is not important. Some FMOs have to go ask the Refuge Manager what he/she has the fire crew doing today, as the Refuge Manager may not quite follow the "chain of command".

For a lot of Refuge Managers (not all!!) Dispatch Plans, Staffing Plans, Task Book completion, Fire Management Plan updates, those are low priority (unless non-completion threatens the flow of fire dollars). And some Refuge Managers view a Task Book completion as a "one-time" assignment. In other words, if you completed it, you don't need to go out again in that position unless currency is an issue. And they want to know how that position (or the next) will benefit their Refuge (maybe their Region, too, as they are very good at helping "neighboring refuges" with personnel, equipment, etc). Individual Development Plans (IDPs) assist is justifying some training/positions.

If the Refuge Manager's supervisors at the Regional Office tell them to do something, they do it. The Office of Aircraft Services (AMD now) says something is required? The Regional Office said nothing about it, so they will not adhere to the OAS's directions as far as requirements for ACE training, etc.

Most of the Refuge Managers in place right now grew up with the agency's staffs doing "prescribed burns". They burned thousands and thousands of acres with little training, and really, they did a pretty good job. So they don't really grasp all the nuances of fire training, safety, fire planning, etc that we have to deal with today.

The first crop of FMOs to hit the FWS Refuges in the last 15 years have changed many refuges for the better as far as fire management goes. There are still some refuge managers out there that just want the fire dollars and personnel, but could care less about fire management. Many refuge managers viewed the fire money as an answer to their prayers for maintenance money and personnel ("What does that refuge need a maintenance person for, they have a fire crew!"). And the first crop of FMOs in the agency fought that long battle. Some made progress at prioritizing fire as the proper use of fire dollars, some are still at it. Some Refuge Managers retired or moved on to the Regional Offices, some FMOs moved on, also.

My advice? Check with NEIGHBORING FMOs and AFMOs wherever the jobs are being advertised. If you call the FWS Regional Fire Office, they will try to sell you the job to get someone in that position (they might not tell you the whole truth). The neighboring refuge FMOs will shoot straight, tell you the pros and cons of that particular job, and give you some insight as to why the last guy (and the guy before that) left that refuge. And if the job is working for an FMO, the neighboring FMOs will tell you the straight scoop about the FMO currently in the position.

And talk to guys that have left that agency's fire program. They are out there. Dig a little.

When the FWS decided to go all out for fire (about 1990), a question was posed to the Fire guru (a staff of one PFT at the time) for FWS at BIFC: "Frank, where are you going to get all those fire people for your agency?" His reply: "We are going to buy them from the USFS, BLM, NPS, and BIA." And they did. So most FMOs have experience outside the FWS, so they will know your point-of-view. Good luck.

LIONA

Avian Flu Pandemic: Implications for Fire

Thoughts from Mellie
10/10/05

This email is to give a heads up on a global and national situation -- an influenza pandemic -- that is likely to involve the IMTs* and all-risk wildland firefighters sooner or later. A pandemic is an epidemic that affects the entire world almost simultaneously, usually causing great illness and great loss of life. This flu pandemic will not be caused by one of our garden-variety, get-your-current-flu-shot type of virus strains, but by a mutated bird flu virus - H5N1 - that's new to mankind. Human bodies have no experience with it and no natural immune defenses against it. Right now the human mortality rate from H5N1 is 52% but this may decrease with further mutations as it's beneficial to a virus not to kill all of its hosts.

Currently our country and the world are not prepared with a vaccine to prevent this flu or with antiviral medication (Oseltamivir, aka Tamiflu), a prophylactic that may increase a person's chance of surviving infection. In addition, the United States is not ready with national or local plans to mitigate the spread of pandemic disease once it gets to the U.S. or to deal with the associated chaotic disruptions that widespread illness and death are likely to bring.

As you undoubtedly have heard, there is a growing discussion among world policy makers and epidemiologists regarding virus H5N1 and the growing likelihood the world will face a human influenza pandemic similar to the pandemic of 1918-19. I have been following the epidemiological developments relating to H5N1 for about a year with growing concern.

If you're having trouble getting your head around the implications of PANDEMIC, join the crowd. The first psychological response to the "worst case scenario" must be the "deer in the headlights" syndrome. I sat down to write about this three weeks ago, but unlike my normal self, found I was unable to "speak the unspeakable". As many of you know, my personal "Deep Survival" style is to "just get busy and figure it out", make some decisions, do it and move on. Normally, like most of you, I define the problem, do the research, strategize for the worst while hoping for the best, and if appropriate, share what I've learned with family, friends and colleagues, then act on my best choices. I usually move through the process fairly quickly, sometimes with radical and surprising results.

Not so this time... It's taken me a bit longer with this PANDEMIC situation to get to the sharing stage... The reason I'm sharing now is that I feel that ICS* and NIMS* will be an important structure for responding to a pandemic. No doubt the federal incident management teams will be called to serve. Whether you and our groundpounders choose to go in harm's way, you should have the facts as best they are known, know what to look for as the world-wide disease situation develops, know what PPE* and safety behaviors are necessary (but far from sufficient) to protect yourselves, and consult with your families to develop a family survival plan. No one can think clearly while on assignment if they're worried for their family at home.

OK, so what is the potential for pandemic of this avian flu?
There are three prerequisites for a PANDEMIC to develop: 1) ...

HERE's where to read the rest of Mellie's research, including suggestions for planning. Ab.

• The National Response Plan is only as valuable as the Incident Command System pieces.
• The only people who know and really understand how ICS works are wildland firefighters.
• The Department of Homeland Security doesn't get it. The people in charge don't even listen
  to the people who know what's going on with ICS.
• DoI leadership doesn't have a clue, I've recently discovered.
• Higher up DoA fire people get it to some degree but don't seem to have the will to support
  or protect our Fire Forces. Those firefighters are now All Risk.
• Our Public doesn't understand.
• No one in (supposed) WO leadership positions seems to care that to get people into IMT
  positions you have to work with them from the ground up. It would make so much more
  sense financially to build our Fire Forces to be the best professionals possible and then
  to retain them as the valuable resource they are.
• We need policy and budget in place for ICS and the IMTs to work.
• What will it take for this country, including DHL and FEMA, and those in charge of the
  Land Management Agencies to discover they're throwing away excellent developing
  young professionals?
• What if this country has another National Emergency with some real RISK attached to it
  and no one comes? Unfortunately, I think that could be a real possibility.

In my opinion, wildland firefighters need to quit enabling the non-protection of our fire forces. I
think they need to say "LOOK, WE NEED A BUDGET LINE THAT FUNDS US FOR THE
PROFESSIONAL WORK WE DO!"

OK Ab, done with my rant!
Tahoe Terrie

Thanks
ST

Ab would be happy to pass any info on.

I agree with ya, I think its a bunch of BS. Just can't believe in this day and age with all the discrimination issues that the federal government has been involved with that this still plagues the forest service. You can't discriminate against veterans, women, ethnicity's, cultures, religion, etc., but god for bid we higher someone that can do a the job, is in good shape, has a lot of knowledge both on the job and off. But we still can't get past this dumbass rule. Sorry just venting.

SoCal. FF

"Aviation traditionally accounts for approximately 30% of total suppression expenditures, in FY 2005 these costs were $180 million through September 21, 2005.

A spending limitation of $100 million dollars reduces capability 50 to 75 percent. The reduction would eliminate use of a significant portion of the fleet and would be necessary to assure that the remaining aircraft are managed and operated safely and efficiently."

With a 40 million dollar deficit for Region 5, it looks like MEL build up might be MEL draw down.

unsigned...

The Federal Agencies, through NWCG, did adopt NFPA 1977...though some
of our specs are more stringent than what NFPA 1977 has... but just thought you
should know that through the H&SWT these standards were adopted.

Fed

Just a final comment. The best structure protection is to put the fire out before the fire gets to the structure. This is perimeter control. Once it gets there, what is structure protection? Structure protection is using fundamental wildland fire tactics to put the fire out around the structure. Direct Attack with hose lines, constructing dozer and hand lines around structures, firing out those lines, helicopter and air drops to slow fire spread and reduce fire intensity so direct attack is manageable. These are the same tactics we use on typical wildland fires. There are additional safety issues. Like being in the green at the fire’s head. And once the structure catches fire, there are issues of training and equipment to suppress the structure fire. But this concept of Structure Protection doesn’t need to be such a big deal. We can do both. Why do we have to order type I engines for structure protection and why do we create a Structure Branch? And why does the Structure Branch or Group have to be a local government fire chief? Type III engines are just as capable of protecting structures, if not more, than type I engines, there’s just not as many and may not always be available. But a lot of times they are and the request is for type I’s. We need those type III’s, whether the green or red or rainbows, both to protect homes and for use in perimeter control when the type I’s can’t reach the fight.

I don’t use Structure Branches very often. I put my Structure Groups in my geographic branches and my Divisions can also do structure protection in addition to perimeter control. Structure Groups are formed in advance of the fire where you have time for prep and planning. This way the appropriate Operations overhead can move their resources interchangeably between structure protection and perimeter control or accomplish both simultaneously without having another layer of supervision to deal with.

Last, we should be putting our best operations supervisors into these positions, not just the local government fire chief that shows up. We are using wildland tactics as mentioned earlier. Structure protection may be what the local fire chief is most comfortable with and many, especially contract county chief officers, have a lot of wildland and structure experience. But not always, especially city departments, and it is unfair to give someone who is not familiar with wildland fire tactics the job of structure protection on these major incidents. Some states have the structure departments with one foot on the porch, I say, go after it when you have the chance, if you're properly trained and equipped, the best structure defense is put the fire out before it gets there!

For more on this discussion, I’ll see you in San Diego at Firehouse World and in March at the IAFC Wildland Conference in Phoenix.

Thanks again, Ab for this forum. The winds will blow again starting Thursday in s.cal and we’ll be ready.

Kelley Gouette

Good comments. Be safe all. Ab.

www.dupont.com/nomex/index.html

Nomex is actually a chemical composition that can be manipulated into different forms. They consolidated all their product lines made from that chemical under the name Nomex several years ago. Its' inherent flame resistant properties, flexibility in manifestation and inert properties make it useful in many industries. Dupont no longer makes the "old versions" of Nomex fiber so no mills can get the fiber to weave the fabric and no manufacturers can get the fabric to sew the shirts. (We get the "where can I get the old shirts?" question at least once a month.) Agencies have switched to these fabrics because they are the ones that are available. However, there are different weaves that vary on how "soft" they feel. Nomex does not lose its' flame resistant properties due to washing or wear. So the life of the garment is judged on how long its durability and structural integrity last. Washing and use may leave behind some undesirable residue though. In the structure world, there is much concern on what types of ethyl methyl bad stuff remain in the garments after use, some that could be flammable or hazardous. There are strict guidelines on cleaning and maintaining structure gear. Those same concerns are entering the wildland side. With NFPA ever present, similar cleaning and maintenance standards may be coming to fireline near you in the future!

Mollysboy
I know that recent Federal contracts for producing wildland clothing have included the requirement that the garments meet NFPA 1977. (This was not true 5 to 8 years ago.) However, I don't think federal agencies have "adopted" NFPA. Otherwise, a lot of folks would have to get rid of their boots and some would have to get rid of their helmets. Adoption to me would require all employees to only use PPE that is certified, and I do no think that is the case at the federal level for all pieces of PPE. Doubt it is true for most states and I certainly see a huge range in acceptance on the VFD and rural side.

Jim

LW, i just saw your query from 08/25/04 and i think i can help.
post a note here with a way to contact you.
i'll check back here and in 'they said' now and then.

okj3

Ab may have that contact info. We'll check.

They may be found on the Classifieds Page under Specialty Products and are also sponsoring the helicopter photo pages. Type One is a product distribution company and technical information source for the SEI Industries Bambi Bucket, Fireflex Tanks and Environmental Containment product lines. They are also a supplier of Phos-Chek Class A foam, The Rookie Sidekick portable fire hose rollers, Timberline Hose Clamps and Madd Dog foam nozzles. See their website for more information at their nice new web site at www.typeoneproducts.com

Ab.

Original Ab has moved the News page to our main wildlandfire.com website. If you have an old link to wildlandfire2.com or to the old news page location, correct it. We be consolidating.

Ab.

I am looking for some information on the older style, aramid
shirts. Is there a reason why most agencies have switched to the more
coarse knit nomex shirts? If the aramids are still within regulation,
where can they be purchased, or are they still made? If they are not
made, does anyone have any sitting around they want to get rid of?

Also, is there a point in which the regular nomex material, loses it's
effectiveness with washing? Or, what is the life span of the nomex
shirts/pants?

Thanks
AH20

I 2nd that. Kelley G and Tracy G are both excellent interagency cooperators. Kelley and retired Deputy Chief Dan Dulitz always took the extra effort to come over say hi and see how things are going.

Tracy's firecracker and can-do attitude with fire training is a huge plus for local departments, CDF and the feds.

We all have within our departments those that don't want to play nice. Call it attitude, selfishness or whatever you like. Without question Kelley G is not one of those. He's the type you want in the foxhole with you.

In this media hyped world called Southern California, it's not always easy to send a consistent message. However regardless of the agency we work for, we all need to watch each other's back and do the best we can, which in my opinion is a dam good job.

Last thing we need is a New Orleans type scenario with political leaders, fire and police chiefs going in 25 different directions during are next So Cal fire siege. Because if that were to happen, what on earth would we do with that famous statue of RQ?

Signed,
MS
Keep smiling Ray! (come visit soon, the troops on the ground would like to meet you before the end of the season)

A friend of mine asked me if I would teach a class in Europe about fire in the U.S.
Needs to be about 30-45 min in length. Any idea where to start? Is there a
presentation out there that I could use? Any info would help. Thanks.

jagerjustin@hotmail.com

Who is the audience? If you know that, you've got a starting place. Ab.

Sorry, Ab for the rant! This was not a perfect incident, haven’t been to one yet. But the cooperation and unified command effort amongst the agencies was the best I’ve ever seen in the “Bermuda Triangle” that is LA, Ventura, and LAC and great strides have been made. I’m out!

Kelley Gouette

You said...

"When a request goes out to Type I Teams to manage a non-fire emergency,
what's the procedure for assessing safety?"

...The procedure is the same as it is for a fire.

"Are firefighters notified if their safety may be compromised?"

...You're kidding here, right? Teams have Safety Officers that do exactly that.

"Is there something in the ordering process that advises teams, crews, and
other resources of the potential risks associated with the assignment?"

...Yes, it's called the in-briefing and the other briefings teams hold - just the same as a fire.

"Do team members discuss safety prior to deployment?"

...Do you think teams forget about their commitment to safety just because it isn't a fire?

"Are members of a team ever really free to beg off an assignment ?"

...It isn't the army - someone can quit if they want to.

"The more cohesive the team, the harder to question risks and opt out?"

...Exactly the opposite - the more cohesive the team, the easier to question risks.

"This past year our Type I Incident Management Teams spent 37% of their time on
"hurricane duty". Including other non-fire duties that teams performed last year, it's
estimated teams spend more than 50% of their time on non-fire incidents. In past years
teams have had chicken choking assignments, dealing with terrorist attack following 9/11,
fighting fire in areas with radioactive risks (Cerro Grande/Los Alamos) and other
"all-risk" non-fire assignments.
What discussions regarding safety preceded those deployments?"

...The briefings - in-briefing and daily. Teams don't just go in blind - there are agency administrators and staff to brief them, no matter what the assignment.

"We assume that we know the risks associated with fighting fire. We work long and
hard at keeping people safe on fire assignments. What about the rest of the assignments?"

...That doesn't change just because it's not a fire.

Sin Nombre

You can find most of your information concerning the NW Regional contract for crews, engines and water tenders on the Internet.

The Regional Engine/Water Tender Contracts are administered by the R6 USFS and can be found at www.fs.fed.us/r6/ppm/fire_procurement. You should also be able to find information on the "National Crew Contracts" on this website.

The Regional Crew Contracts are administered by the Oregon Department of Forestry and can be found at www.oregon.gov/odf/index. It's a little difficult to navigate but you need to go to "Divisions", "Forest Protection Division", "Fire in the Forest", "Fire Fighting Resources", "Contractor Associations".

The NWSA (National Wildfire Suppression Association) is a contractor association and their website has information concerning training requirements and certification (they follow the 310-1that many agencies follow). This website will provide you names of other contractor associations too. www.nwsa.us.

Happy writing!

KC

Lobotomy,

Thanks for the info. Big hugs to you! I never did get to tell you what a great job you did with the pictures from Ken's run. I just watched the video the other day and saw you lurking in the background snapping pictures like crazy! Hope to meet you again one day soon. Take care until then and keep on informing us.....

Lori

There's a link for R5 Outreach on the jobs page under federal. We do have a helpful bunch here, don't we? Ab.

1. Can someone point me to a website listing USFS job outreaches? I recently saw an outreach for a GS-6 Lead Crewmember on an interagency helicopter on the BT. I responded to the outreach but now seem to have lost it.
2. I see that the same helitack program is flying a 7/8 - I'm wondering if this is the same job and it got upgraded (in which case I'm no longer qualified)?

Any help would be appreciated!

rotor-head wannabe

Here's another subject - safety and the call to serve on ALL-RISK incidents-
Can anyone tell me... ???

When a request goes out to Type I Teams to manage a non-fire emergency, what's the procedure for assessing safety? Are firefighters notified if their safety may be compromised? Is there something in the ordering process that advises teams, crews, and other resources of the potential risks associated with the assignment? Do team members discuss safety prior to deployment? Are members of a team ever really free to beg off an assignment ? The more cohesive the team, the harder to question risks and opt out?

This past year our Type I Incident Management Teams spent 37% of their time on "hurricane duty". Including other non-fire duties that teams performed last year, it's estimated teams spend more than 50% of their time on non-fire incidents. In past years teams have had chicken choking assignments, dealing with terrorist attack following 9/11, fighting fire in areas with radioactive risks (Cerro Grande/Los Alamos) and other "all-risk" non-fire assignments.

What discussions regarding safety preceded those deployments?

We assume that we know the risks associated with fighting fire. We work long and hard at keeping people safe on fire assignments. What about the rest of the assignments?

For example, what if FIRE was tasked by FEMA to clean up oil spills resulting from the hurricanes. If we are, will there be serious discussion of long and short term risks of working with oil, what is appropriate PPE, etc? What if there are chemical spills as well? Who is the SUBJECT MATTER EXPERT for those risks? FDNY didn't know what dangerous breathing conditions they were getting into as they tried to rescue comrades at the World Trade Center. In my opinion, educated risk assessments are necessary.

Finally, where does concern for your family's safety fit in? (Some New Orleans cops and pumping station workers chose their wife and kid's safety over sticking at "their posts". Can't say as I blame them.) Do you have discussions with your families before hand?

Does anybody think about this stuff besides me? <wry grin>

Mellie

When you're on that page, click on "view/sign guest book" link to see what's been written - and to contribute. Ab.

California-Nevada-Hawaii Forest Fire Council is having a conference entitled
Applying Technology and Common Sense to Wildland Fire on
October 26 and 27 at the Peppermill in Reno NV.

Here's the link to the website:
www.cnhfire.org/

GK

Thanks for the feed back. Good luck to all taking the exam.

LH

JS

Hope you put this info on the Hot List Forum. Ab.

All CDF Fire Captains receive Range A pay with the exception of Hand Crew Captains, they are Range B (10% enhancement for supervising so many people). Colloquially we use the term Captain A to refer to Engine and Staff Captains and Captain B to refer to Handcrew Captains. Hope this clears things up.

PS I believe the majority of people hired on the open list are hired into Captain B positions at camps that have a hard time attracting CDF folks.

LNU Capt.

In all due respect to Pat B.'s response on CDF pay scales he provides good info on where to get the current information. However he is incorrect on the Range A & B differential.

The range B scales are higher because those employees are involved in the supervision of inmates and/or wards in the penal system. These inmates/wards are used for hand-crews in CDF.

The pay difference is generally a 10% increase from the range A pay scales. There are numerous positions within CDF that have contact or supervision of inmates/wards that qualify for the range B rates.

Monty M.

It came back up today. Ab.

Good perspective. What we should watch is the caliber (GS level) of those
that work the solutions. The practitioners need to have a say.

FH

1. policy to facilitate quick mobilization of resources and to work within a mutual aid framework with state and local government, and
2. the IT systems that sort of correspond with this.

Let's just not beat around the bush here: wildland fire simply has the capability for mass mobilization of resources and supplies, and systems that work to support that. But, those systems are not perfect either. I have heard that an effort is underway in the wildland fire community to address some of these issues and plan for long term changes and integration. Good news for wildland fire: a plan to work on these issues.

Let me throw out a radical idea:

Perhaps in the post-Katrina world, FEMA, DHS, and the land management agencies, in cooperation with the rest of the government, could actually work together and POOL resources to build fully interoperable and efficient systems to more efficiently mobilize personnel and resources, keep track of them all, make sure everyone gets home safely, and to work with state, local, tribal, and FEDERAL government agencies to ensure mutual aid plans such as EMAC, etc are incorporated. I will say FEMA has a tendency to forget about federal government and focus totally on state/local government. NIMS is supposed to fix some of this, but as DHS' own IG has shown, NIMS is not obvious in FEMA's IT set up (from what I've read so far).

Call me crazy, but it seems like the E-Government should idealistically be encouraging just such activities. And, NIMS should provide the framework within which these activities occur FOR FEMA AS A WHOLE. It looks to me like all signs are saying it's time for FEMA to stop operating under their old status quo and start operating under NIMS as it was really meant. You DO NOT SEE wildland fires where folks don't get supplies and equipment and millions of extra dollars are spent on contracting for ridiculous things such as driving ice all over the country, etc. You do see some controversial expenditures on wildland fires, but these are rarely due to glaring inefficiencies in the systems. This is due I believe to adherence at all levels of response to the original NIIMS, where business processes and IT systems relate to the framework from the local and mutual aid level to the headquarters and National MAC levels.

If only I could do that sort of interview with the Washington Post!

Hahahahahahahaha. I am sure loving the anonymous protection of this board.

I will say this. Since 9/11, the government has done some really amazing things, policy-wise. HSPD-5 is great, NIMS policy is great, and the National Response Plan is a good first shot, although it would be better probably by more closely following the principles of NIMS.

However, wildland fire has a lot to offer to the national thought process on emergency management as the domestic federal agencies who respond to and actually manage more large, complex incidents per year and overall than any other agency, including FEMA. FEMA does NOT manage incidents. Federal wildland fire agencies manage incidents and often in close coordination or Unified Command with local and state government, and don't forget, with each other! This INCLUDES resource mobilization and management including personnel, equipment, policy, systems, supplies, and decision support such as maintaining capability, etc.

Who better to help show how to do effective interagency incident management response and coordination than the folks who are already doing it at every level?

Yet, when it comes to designing policy, procedures, and systems for emergency management in this country, the assets and expertise of wildland fire are not tapped often enough. The land management agencies do a pretty good job of trying to be aggressive about this, especially USDA and Forest Service, but the recognition really needs to come from major state and federal policymakers and the American public.

Will I still have a job after saying these things? I hope so. I am getting less chicken about telling it like it is, although it can be dangerous for careers and futures. I leave with a quote from this article ("FEMA's decline: an agency's slow slide from grace" at www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0905/092805j1.htm )

"If there were so many signs and so many warnings that FEMA was not the agency it once was, then how did it keep its reputation? Mainly, it appears, because few outside the emergency response community were paying any attention... The public and at least one independent inquiry likely will be asking hard questions about FEMA's blunders… Some want to block Chertoff's plan to separate FEMA's response and recovery divisions, while others propose separating FEMA from DHS. More proposals are sure to surface. The real question is what the Bush administration and Congress will do when the inquiries end. The 2004 Intelligence Reform Act, forced through in the wake of the 9/11 commission's report, has received decidedly mixed reviews. A hasty, public relations-driven reform following the Katrina investigations could bode ill for disaster response."

Be safe out there!
-western idealist

"In addition to these proactive efforts to ensure internal procurement integrity, FEMA and the DHS Office of the Inspector General are actively addressing external fraud issues. Fraudulent contractors and false claims of disaster losses are not uncommon in the wake of disasters, and DHS encourages anyone who believes they may have witnessed fraudulent activity to report it immediately through the DHS Inspector General's Hurricane Relief Fraud Hotline at 1-866-720-5721."

Having been involved with one or two FEMA responses and having heard nightmares about fraud/abuse at LOTS of other FEMA disasters, thought you all may come across some situations worth reporting. Hope not.

Be safe-

-WO

The Supply Cache/Fire Cache that sponsors theysaid is doing yet another raffle to benefit the Wildland Firefighter's Foundation. They're the most WFF supporting, raffling-holding folks around. (Prize is $250 merchandise certificate.) Go to their raffle page via the text under their banner link above to learn the details and to buy tickets. (Their banner still takes you to their home page.)

Ab.

Tahoe Terrie

Glad to see you were able to make the move out of Elpaso county. I know it was a tough one. The Black Hats are a great crew and I am glad you guys made it down for Katrina/Rita. We are in New Orleans in the community of Algiers setting up DRCs etc. If you get any free time give me a call. I am sure Ab will give you my temp. cell number.

You guys stay safe and take care,
Arlo

was intrigued with the CDF Capt. pay chart and was wondering what makes
up the different ranges? Also if you have the data, could you throw me some
numbers as to what the FFIIs, both medic and non-medic, make per year
without the O/T. Thanks. LH

The CA Department of Personnel Administration http://www.dpa.ca.gov/
web page has a link to the California State Civil Service Pay Scales, 52nd Edition, now available online.

the payscales are for every civil service position, are easy to research specific positions.
This web site also has a link to the negotiated union contracts which will also reflect the projected 2006 pay benefit increase.

Example of Ranges in pay are established by salary determination based on education, time in service, shift differentials. If you look on the job specifications on the state personnel board web page http://www.spb.ca.gov

look toward the left of the page and it has a tag for current and former state employees takes you to the next page, in the first block, click on Class Specifications (Job Descriptions), Employment Statistics and Pay Scale

http://www.spb.ca.gov/Employment/current_former_employees.htm

type in the job specs you're interested in, and it will also reflect the ranges in pay.

Range A typically is the range given to a new hiree, after a probationary term, the employee receives a pay increase (typically 5%) - to Range B

As for the medic pay, that would also reflect on a pay range and monthly pay.

As for the Capt test being open and not just promotional, was based on the projection of staffing reduction (retirement) following the 2006 pay/benefit increase.

I think the state of CA is the only agency that pays once a month

hope this answered your question.
Pat B

RO

RO, none of the Wildcad links work from our news page or from any other GACC site that formerly provided access. The links are still there on the GACC sites under intelligence, but the message is that they're not accessible because "you are not authorized". One other time when WildCAD was down for updating, the message was that it was unable to find the pages. Does anyone know if this is something new? Ab.

Yeah, but isn't it 100' now?

I was intrigued with the CDF Capt. pay chart and was wondering what makes
up the different ranges? Also if you have the data, could you throw me some
numbers as to what the FFIIs, both medic and non-medic, make per year
without the O/T. Thanks.

LH

Re CDF Open Capt. Test: Heard open applications outnumbered promotional... any truth?
Reply: With our (CDF's) recent increases in OT and our retirement, I know plenty of USFS folks who are looking as well as some federal base and military facility types.

We may be getting some most excellently trained FS people. Lobotomy, I agree with you that the fed fire org is loosing out...

SoCal CDF

~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Date: October 3, 2005

Subject: Airlift Northwest Memorial

September 29, 2005, the emergency service community lost three exceptional people. Steve Smith, Lois Suzuki, and Erin Reed passed away after their air ambulance was lost while returning from providing emergent care in the Seattle area.

Airlift Northwest will conduct a public memorial service for Steve, Lois and Erin Thursday October 6, 2005 at 1100 AM. The location will be at the 7777 Perimeter RD, S. Hanger Building - Southeast Boeing Field. A reception will immediately follow at Airlift Northwest Administrative Building: 6987 Perimeter RD, S., Seattle, WA 98108.

* Agencies wishing to bring apparatus are asked to arrive starting at 0800, no later than 1000 to allow for coordination of parking.
* Complementary private vehicle parking is available on the property.
* Seattle Police will assist guiding vehicles to the proper location.
* Personnel are encouraged to represent their agencies in uniform.

Please contact Gary Aleshire (galeshire @ firedistrict1.org or 425-754-1048) for any additional information.

Forest Service crews help evacuees

RO

I am looking for a book or a manual that might give descriptions and/or
show pictures of different types of hose packs. If you could point me in
the right direction I would really appreciate it. Thanks for your time!

Green

Thanks everybody and be safe
NCGroundPounder

Welcome. Ab.

Majority of the fire was CDF Direct Protection (SRA) in Ventura County. Fire started in Los Angeles City and spread to LAC, VNC and Santa Monica Mountains NRA (NPS) LAC was the ordering point due to fire spread and initial ordering. LAC Team #3 assumed initial command. Transitioned to Unified Command with 5 agencies involved (CDF,LAC, LFD, VNC and NPS) under one Operations Chief with 4 deputies and CDF Type 1 Team #7 (Heil).

Aircraft flying at night were from LA City and LA County due to life threat. This is unusual but there have been past practice when life threat is high such as Topanga “93, Simi “03 etc. They DO NOT use night vision because of the light from the fire, only ambient light and in areas they are familiar with.

This fire has gone extremely well given the politics and multiple agency involvement. Only 1 residence was destroyed by the fire. Sorry for the lack of credit to the USFS on the 209. Sometimes things are missed in the heat of battle and federal involvement was minimal with 5 hotshot crews out of 84 total, 2 Type III helicopters, and a couple of Type III engine S/T’s. People need to remember, when life threat is in the 10’s of thousands and structure threat is in the hundreds, GUIDELINES such as not working 24 hour shifts, 2 for 1 rest cycles, and flight hour limitations are sometimes compromised until the life threat passes or enough resources arrive to mitigate these issues. CDF ICT #7 works very hard to insure that federal resources are in compliance with federal policies. We run a 24 hour shift on a going fire, with 24 hours off. That’s a 1-1 rest cycle which exceeds the federal requirement. We work federal resources 16-8 so we have them available each day shift, and so there is no loss of pay. Sometimes it is necessary to work the 24 hour shift and we then try and give them a 12 hour off to meet the 2 for 1 rather than 24 off but that is not always feasible as well. When the situation allowed, we released federal resources so they could be re-deployed to the Thurman fire on the San Bernardino. All in all, the most successful interface fire I have been involved with from a unified command standpoint. A little luck and a lot of hard work went into the successful save of many structures.

Kelley Gouette
Battalion Chief/Air Operations
CDF/San Luis Obispo

From what I heard, it was a job well done. I even listened to some of the action via the online scanner. Ab.

We here at the McClellan Training Center are seeking fire
photos to liven up the sanatorium-style walls. We have over 50% of the
walls covered. We need high-resolution (1.5 MB) photos, or quality prints.
Please submit any action-packed or dramatic photos to Charly Price at
cprice01@fs.fed.us. Please, no Sears catalog style photos, the ones where
everyone is looking out at 45 degrees with hands on their hips, obviously
posing. We have a sufficient number of old photos, we need 70's, 80's,
90's, and newer photos. Charly can also be reached by phone at
530-478-6211.

Thanks.

Scott Whitmire

Mellie,

That is correct, the Plumas Hotshot was injured after a large green tree fell in the middle of the burn and flew downslope into the canyon burn. Ironically, it was at that time that myself and a couple of others were talking with the DIVS about how silly it would be working a 24 hour shift on such a steep slope with no access to timely medical care. Not whining, just rationally thinking at the time.

NZ Helitack

Staying situationally aware. Ab.

Yeeha!

Melissa @ Wildland Firefighter Foundation = (208) 336-2996

I was down in L. A., last week for a class, not related to fire, and I say a bunch of footage from the news. The aircraft that that were working after dark were the firehawks, LA County adaptation of the Blackhawk. It was the only aircraft that I saw flying at night in the news footage, I think they have some special night capability such as what the military has.

I noticed that the news stations in Southern California were pretty much 24 hour news on fires evacuations, and freeway closures. Traffic got pretty fouled up and they were talking of closing parts of US 101. They thought the fire was going to jump 101 and head to Malibu and the Pacific Ocean on Tuesday. On Wednesday I walked by the El Segundo Fire Station and they were forming up a strike team of type 1 engines at about 4:30 PM.

When I left on Friday morning things looked better but they were worried that the Santa Ana, foehn winds, would be back on Monday or Tuesday. The last time I heard they suspected arson and were investigating.

Retired L.A.V.E.

"A meeting will be taking place within the next 45 days to determine Forest Service fire
suppression staffing levels for 2006."

Do you have any information about the who, what, when, where, and how of this meeting? Is
this a meeting concerning a local district, a forest, a province, a region, or nationally?

Lobotomy

Tahoe Forest fire contained; 1 injured

The hurricanes were grabbing the news then...

Mellie

How come helicopters and other air tanker resources are currently being used
after pumpkin time in So CA? Did this suddenly become a safe practice or
politically expedient?

Uncle Louie

PS - To all on the FWFSA Org chart, one thing ---> Get Ready !

Test run this AM on the supposed chickenpox patient returned negative.

THERE IS NO CHICKENPOX. I REPEAT, NO CHICKENPOX!!!!!!!!

The Forest Service folks are doing an outstanding job. I feel privileged to
have the opportunity to work with them.

Nancy Walea, RN, MA
Public Health Nurse Consultant
San Antonio Metropolitan Health District
332 W. Commerce, Suite 202
San Antonio, TX 78205

Thanks, Nancy. Ab.